ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #7 - Dwyane Wade vs. Bob Cousy

[Kblaze8855]

Sure, that is all reasonable. But the point becomes where is the line. Is Gary Payton better than Cousy? Kidd? Nash? Allen? How far do we take your line of thinking?

I cant put an individual player out there and say everyone behind him is fair game to compare Cousy to.

I will say...off the top of my head...there is no elite point of my lifetime I want Cousy over.

And to take it out of the "Who I want..." area...

If you just must have some kind of guideline..

Id not be mad if someone say Cousy>Kirk Hinrich or even to find a borderline star...young Kenny anderson. They didnt do anything. Not on his level.

Wade? Kidd? Nash?

These are guys who were all NBA too. Who won as much or more as team leaders and only one of them had anything like Cousy did when they managed it(3 people one could call top 10). The one time Wade has a team with that kind of firepower his team lost i nthe finals. Cousy never even got there.

I cant give a single thing to say "If you ___ you are better than Cousy". But I can say...if you are among the long list of guys its hard to argue arent just flat out better....AND you led a team where he didnt....or you show interest in playing the total game? Both sides?

Im not likely to rank Cousy over you.

As I said earlier...the more I learn about him the less impressed I am. 15 years ago I bet id have had him ranked much higher. But we live and learn. Ive seen too much to assume everything is as simple as face value.

Especially the issues raised here. Winning? All nba teams?

Not as simple as it appears.

[DMAVS41]

I cant put an individual player out there and say everyone behind him is fair game to compare Cousy to.

I will say...off the top of my head...there is no elite point of my lifetime I want Cousy over.

And to take it out of the "Who I want..." area...

If you just must have some kind of guideline..

Id not be mad if someone say Cousy>Kirk Hinrich or even to find a borderline star...young Kenny anderson. They didnt do anything. Not on his level.

Wade? Kidd? Nash?

These are guys who were all NBA too. Who won as much or more as team leaders and only one of them had anything like Cousy did when they managed it(3 people one could call top 10). The one time Wade has a team with that kind of firepower his team lost i nthe finals. Cousy never even got there.

I cant give a single thing to say "If you ___ you are better than Cousy". But I can say...if you are among the long list of guys its hard to argue arent just flat out better....AND you led a team where he didnt....or you show interest in playing the total game? Both sides?

Im not likely to rank Cousy over you.

As I said earlier...the more I learn about him the less impressed I am. 15 years ago I bet id have had him ranked much higher. But we live and learn. Ive seen too much to assume everything is as simple as face value.

Especially the issues raised here. Winning? All nba teams?

Not as simple as it appears.

I think that goes to the area of adaptation. Maybe Cousy would have adapted his game if necessary. And if defense is so important to you....Nash certainly can't be high on your list as Nash is an all time bad defender....statistically much worse than Cousy actually.

[Kblaze8855]

I can respect that, but answer me this

Would Jordan still be considered the best ever if he didn't win multiple championships and multiple titles? Winning counts for something and he wond titles and mvps.

Don't matter how great you are on the court, if he didn't win anything he wouldn't be number one (if you have him number one.)


That depends on who you ask. Ask me? Sure. I said it before he won. Lots of people did. People act like it isnt done...but it is. People thought Wilt was the GOAT before he won. Cousy too for that matter. Kareem. Bird:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2548/birdcc.jpg


One year of Bird and red can compare him to Cousy and Sloan calls him the GOAT and hes only in his first finals. And struggling in it at that. No rings. No MVPs. Nothing but eyes.

Its not as rare as you might think.

Greatness does not hide very well. When its in there...you can see it.

[DMAVS41]

That depends on who you ask. Ask me? Sure. I said it before he won. Lots of people did. People act like it isnt done...but it is. People thought Wilt was the GOAT before he won. Cousy too for that matter. Kareem. Bird:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2548/birdcc.jpg


One year of Bird and red can compare him to Cousy and Sloan calls him the GOAT and hes only in his first finals. And struggling in it at that. No rings. No MVPs. Nothing but eyes.

Its not as rare as you might think.

Greatness does not hide very well. When its in there...you can see it.

Sure, but if Bird had his back problems in year 5 and it ruined the rest of his career....he wouldn't be regarded as the player he is today. That just isn't debatable.

[L.Kizzle]

I cant put an individual player out there and say everyone behind him is fair game to compare Cousy to.

I will say...off the top of my head...there is no elite point of my lifetime I want Cousy over.

And to take it out of the "Who I want..." area...

If you just must have some kind of guideline..

Id not be mad if someone say Cousy>Kirk Hinrich or even to find a borderline star...young Kenny anderson. They didnt do anything. Not on his level.

Wade? Kidd? Nash?

These are guys who were all NBA too. Who won as much or more as team leaders and only one of them had anything like Cousy did when they managed it(3 people one could call top 10). The one time Wade has a team with that kind of firepower his team lost i nthe finals. Cousy never even got there.

I cant give a single thing to say "If you ___ you are better than Cousy". But I can say...if you are among the long list of guys its hard to argue arent just flat out better....AND you led a team where he didnt....or you show interest in playing the total game? Both sides?

Im not likely to rank Cousy over you.

As I said earlier...the more I learn about him the less impressed I am. 15 years ago I bet id have had him ranked much higher. But we live and learn. Ive seen too much to assume everything is as simple as face value.

Especially the issues raised here. Winning? All nba teams?

Not as simple as it appears.
So a guy who basically dominated his era at the guard spot get's compared to Kenny Anderson? Because his game was ugly or wouldn't translate to todays game, who downplay him? That's not really fair to Cousy. Yeah his defense sucked, but like in an earlier post, who was gettin credited for defense in the early 50s? Find me one article about "defense wins games" before 1955?

[Kblaze8855]

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But what about Cousy? You didn't see him play in 57 when he won MVP. Maybe that would have changed your view on him.

If you are judging these players pretty much solely by watching them play...how can you so easily write off a player that you didn't see play?


I dont know what year it was when I saw most of what ive seen out of Cousy. Im sure its a mix of a lot. But I really suspect the list of people here who have seen more of him than me is short. Ive been collecting videos on basketball for a long ti,me. Since the days of Emule and direct connect taking 2 weeks to download a game from the 60s from a guy who left his folder open. Seeing old old specials on him from his playing days. I cant even remember the title of the main one in my mind but it had clips of him with like 10-11 kids playing ball on the street all of them trying to rip him as he dribbled around. Ive always been curious about those times. Ive seen quite a bit and I still sit around watching random videos on youtube channels.

Do I believe ive seen enough to know his game inside and out? Of course not.

Have I seen Bob Cousy play more than ive seen Jimmer Fredette or DeMar DeRozan? Yes.

I dont think I know his game. But it didnt take long to know I dont want it anywhere near my team. I cant say that of everyone of his era. Cousy?

Just not for me. You know how often I talk about defense?

Cousy and I arent on the same page at all.

[DMAVS41]

I dont know what year it was when I saw most of what ive seen out of Cousy. Im sure its a mix of a lot. But I really suspect the list of people here who have seen more of him than me is short. Ive been collecting videos on basketball for a long ti,me. Since the days of Emule and direct connect taking 2 weeks to download a game from the 60s from a guy who left his folder open. Seeing old old specials on him from his playing days. I cant even remember the title of the main one in my mind but it had clips of him with like 10-11 kids playing ball on the street all of them trying to rip him as he dribbled around. Ive always been curious about those times. Ive seen quite a bit and I still sit around watching random videos on youtube channels.

Do I believe ive seen enough to know his game inside and out? Of course not.

Have I seen Bob Cousy play more than ive seen Jimmer Fredette or DeMar DeRozan? Yes.

I dont think I know his game. But it didnt take long to know I dont want it anywhere near my team. I cant say that of everyone of his era. Cousy?

Just not for me. You know how often I talk about defense?

Cousy and I arent on the same page at all.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your view. I'm just curious.

So where do you fall on Nash? He is a worse defender...and that means even more in today's game. I'm assuming if defense out of your pg is such a vital piece of your team then your feelings on Nash (at least on that end of the floor) have to be similar to your views on Cousy.

[Kblaze8855]

So a guy who basically dominated his era at the guard spot get's compared to Kenny Anderson? Because his game was ugly or wouldn't translate to todays game, who downplay him? That's not really fair to Cousy. Yeah his defense sucked, but like in an earlier post, who was gettin credited for defense in the early 50s? Find me one article about "defense wins games" before 1955?

If I were judging him off what his game would be today I wouldnt compareh i mto Kenny anderson would I? You think I believe Cousy would be as good in todays NBA as Kenny Anderson would? The point was never what he would do today.

And im not about to google defense to prove that everyone before 1955 wasnt braindead. As I said...Red coached a team that had the #2 offense and best defense.

You think it was by chance? That some teams didnt play better defense due to...trying to do it? Teams just missed more vs some teams for the hell of it?

I do not believe it took 60 years for players of any sport to decide it would be good if the other team scored a little less often.

[L.Kizzle]

If I were judging him off what his game would be today I wouldnt compareh i mto Kenny anderson would I? You think I believe Cousy would be as good in todays NBA as Kenny Anderson would? The point was never what he would do today.

And im not about to google defense to prove that everyone before 1955 wasnt braindead. As I said...Red coached a team that had the #2 offense and best defense.

You think it was by chance? That some teams didnt play better defense due to...trying to do it? Teams just missed more vs some teams for the hell of it?

I do not believe it took 60 years for players of any sport to decide it would be good if the other team scored a little less often.
Where do you rank Bob Coury, you don't seem to think pretty highly of him?

Above Terry Porter and Mark Jackson, below Maurice Cheeks and Kevin Johnson. Where does he fall?

[Kblaze8855]

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your view. I'm just curious.

So where do you fall on Nash? He is a worse defender...and that means even more in today's game. I'm assuming if defense out of your pg is such a vital piece of your team then your feelings on Nash (at least on that end of the floor) have to be similar to your views on Cousy.


Nash does not combine a lack of defense with missing 70% of his shots in the playoffs some years of his prime. Plus...I can respect nashs effort. Nash doesnt want to be a bad defender. He does what he can but he has physical limitations.

Cousy from everything I hear and read from him and his teammates...did not care. He didnt care when Russell came alone and explained why it was important. Russell has to turn his defense into offense to play into Cousys approach.

I do not respect that at all. Is he a nice guy? From what I hear. Hes not an arrogant guy either. Ive heard him saying in the 70s that every guard out there had moves he didnt have in his day and how he couldnt defend those guys.

Hes a pretty real old guy.

But I dont like the approach. Capable but not always willing defender?

Its everything I want my team not to be.

[Kblaze8855]

Where do you rank Bob Coury, you don't seem to think pretty highly of him?

Above Terry Porter and Mark Jackson, below Maurice Cheeks and Kevin Johnson. Where does he fall?


Id have to put a lot of thought into it. Ive not bothered because I know its at a level well short of Wade.

Id not get into an argument over one ranking him over Porter and Mark Jackson. Or Cheeks. Im not sure id get too into it over KJ either.

All of them are better total players no doubt. But I cant really say they did much Cousy didnt.

When I have to sit aside ability to even begin the discussion as I must with Cousy...

I gotta go by what they did. And frankly im not blown away by going a little over .500 with 3 all nba first teamers(not all at once...but guys who proved to be on that level very close to the year in question) and losing in the first round or making the second and getting swept.

So I cant put Cousy up there with people id rank over him as leaders of teams.

Mark Jackson?

Really good point. One time all star? role player on a finals losing team?

You wanna put Cousy over him I wont argue.

Wanna put Cousy over an all nba first teamer who led his team to a title? Issues.

[DMAVS41]

Nash does not combine a lack of defense with missing 70% of his shots in the playoffs some years of his prime. Plus...I can respect nashs effort. Nash doesnt want to be a bad defender. He does what he can but he has physical limitations.

Cousy from everything I hear and read from him and his teammates...did not care. He didnt care when Russell came alone and explained why it was important. Russell has to turn his defense into offense to play into Cousys approach.

I do not respect that at all. Is he a nice guy? From what I hear. Hes not an arrogant guy either. Ive heard him saying in the 70s that every guard out there had moves he didnt have in his day and how he couldnt defend those guys.

Hes a pretty real old guy.

But I dont like the approach. Capable but not always willing defender?

Its everything I want my team not to be.

Nash's effort on defense is questionable as well....and regardless of "want"...he's just a historically bad defender.

As far as the fg% stuff goes......it was simply a different game. Russell shot 37% in the playoffs in 57.

Its not like Cousy simply could not shoot either. He shot 80% from the ft line for his career.

To me its just kind of a "meh".....Cousy was known as one of the elite players in the league for most of his career. He won an MVP...he played well enough to be considered a great player and played well enough to be part of teams that won multiple titles.

Differentiating that between a player we've only see play for 8 years...only 6 healthy is just too difficult for me to weigh. When Wade's career is over and his legacy is written it will probably be easy.

But I'll keep coming back to the simple fact that Wade's legacy is yet to be written. If he and Lebron/Bosh can't figure out a way to win multiple titles while having a loaded team...then it should negatively impact their rankings when its all said and done.

[L.Kizzle]

Mark Jackson?

Really good point. One time all star? role player on a finals losing team?

You wanna put Cousy over him I wont argue.

Wanna put Cousy over an all nba first teamer who led his team to a title? Issues.
Replace Mark Jackson with Chauncey Billups.

[magnax1]

I totally agree. However...don't you think its important...or that there is value in that player actually doing it? Or forget winning...just how about Lebron play well throughout a run and not have these "weird" games or series in which he's not himself.
Having those weird series definitely matters to me, because a player is only as good as his worst matchup. Winning? Not really, because a guy like Barkley can end up not winning anything and still be borderline top 25 to me.


In theory I totally agree, but there has to be something to a player actually doing this stuff.

This notion that Wade winning the MVP, Finals MVP, and a title next year wouldn't really do anything for his ranking because he might not play as well as he did in 09 just doesn't make sense to me.
I don't get why it should matter. I didn't really care that Kobe won MVP in 08, when I thought it was his first year of decline. I don't really care that Dirk won in 07, or Rose won this year when I didn't think either of them were top 5 players. MVP is especially useless to me, as it's really just a group of peoples opinions. It's not that longevity doesn't matter, but what matters more is the amount of years a player is capable of bringing in a title as a singular first option, and how good he is in those years. How good he is after he stops being a first option doesn't matter a ton, unless it's someone like Karl Malone who was top 3-10 for 15+ years.

[DMAVS41]

Having those weird series definitely matters to me, because a player is only as good as his worst matchup. Winning? Not really, because a guy like Barkley can end up not winning anything and still be borderline top 25 to me.


I don't get why it should matter. I didn't really care that Kobe won MVP in 08, when I thought it was his first year of decline. I don't really care that Dirk won in 07, or Rose won this year when I didn't think either of them were top 5 players. MVP is especially useless to me, as it's really just a group of peoples opinions. It's not that longevity doesn't matter, but what matters more is the amount of years a player is capable of bringing in a title as a singular first option, and how good he is in those years. How good he is after he stops being a first option doesn't matter a ton, unless it's someone like Karl Malone who was top 3-10 for 15+ years.

Well, I didn't mean it in the sense of MVP = this or that. Just that playing at a high level and leading a team to a title simply matters. Its a player doing something...not talking about it.

For me, everything matters. Peak, longevity, how good a player is as a rookie...in his last year. How he adapts his game to new challenges...new teammates...new coaches. Consistency. Durability....all of it. I'm an entire body of work guy.

Greatness isn't about doing something for a few years. Its about doing something for 10 straight years...etc.

Too many NBA players have been great for 4 years and then been nothing after.

I'm not saying Wade is that at all. I'm a huge Wade guy. I just think everything matters. I don't think just because Wade played great in 06 or 09...that is all we need to see.

I want to see how Wade adapts his game as he gets older. How he adapts his game to playing with Lebron and Bosh...etc.

That stuff matters.

[magnax1]

Too many NBA players have been great for 4 years and then been nothing after.
But the thing is, how can you take the guy who was a borderline all star for 15 years over the guy who was top 5 for 4 years when you know you're never going to have an easy time building a championship around a borderline all star? That's really the thing that bugs me. I get that different people have different criteria (though I don't get the whole winning thing either) but this especially doesn't make any sense to me.

[DMAVS41]

But the thing is, how can you take the guy who was a borderline all star for 15 years over the guy who was top 5 for 4 years when you know you're never going to have an easy time building a championship around a borderline all star? That's really the thing that bugs me. I get that different people have different criteria (though I don't get the whole winning thing either) but this especially doesn't make any sense to me.

Sure. But Cousy wasn't a borderline all star. He was an elite top 5 to 10 player for pretty much his entire career.

Its not like he was the Carlos Boozer or Chris Bosh of the NBA back then.

[magnax1]

Sure. But Cousy wasn't a borderline all star. He was an elite top 5 to 10 player for pretty much his entire career.

Its not like he was the Carlos Boozer or Chris Bosh of the NBA back then.
No I'm not saying that. I'm talking about just in general really. Or.... TMac and Reggie Miller.

[DMAVS41]

No I'm not saying that. I'm talking about just in general really. Or.... TMac and Reggie Miller.

Oh. Yea, I understand that view. I will say that I don't think there are many players in the history of the game that could be the clear cut number 1 on a title winning team.

A lot of those borderline all stars are the players that play huge roles on championship teams. Guys like Odom or Terry. Bosh will play a huge role in the future. Ray Allen in 2010...I know they didn't win, but Allen really sucked in the Finals. He plays better and they win.

Even if you are lucky enough to have one of those true number 1 guys you are talking about you still need a ton of help.

[magnax1]

Oh. Yea, I understand that view. I will say that I don't think there are many players in the history of the game that could be the clear cut number 1 on a title winning team.

A lot of those borderline all stars are the players that play huge roles on championship teams. Guys like Odom or Terry. Bosh will play a huge role in the future. Ray Allen in 2010...I know they didn't win, but Allen really sucked in the Finals. He plays better and they win.

Even if you are lucky enough to have one of those true number 1 guys you are talking about you still need a ton of help.
Completely agree.

[L.Kizzle]

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