Shaq blames lockout (in part) on Joe Johnson

[hawkfan]

http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/2011/09/21/shaq-says-joe-johnsons-contract-is-a-reason-for-nbas-mess/

Shaq talks about how JJ's contract was too big for his talent and the money the Hawks have to spend.

Of course, Shaq wanted to play in Atlanta last year; don't know if JJ was against it or not.

[cteach111]

i wonder if Shaq has made any friends throughout his NBA career... hes right about JJ's contract though so..

[DirtySanchez]

He is right...but it's not Joe Johnson fault....it's the owners for paying him that much.

[HylianNightmare]

http://ballerwives.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/rashard-lewis-wife-girlfriend-Giovanni-Fortes.jpg

[Legends66NBA7]

http://ballerwives.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/rashard-lewis-wife-girlfriend-Giovanni-Fortes.jpg

+1. Would also add this guy:

http://steffeniben.blogyd.com/uploads/gilbert_arenas_img_04.jpg

[QuebecBaller]

He is right...but it's not Joe Johnson fault....it's the owners for paying him that much.
This. No player would say " please i want a smaller contract please"

[Crown&Coke]

JJ brought ATL back into the NBA, before that nobody knew the Hawks even played basketball.

JJ earned that contract.

[HEAT111]

JJ brought ATL back into the NBA, before that nobody knew the Hawks even played basketball.

JJ earned that contract.


It was still crazy...

[Crown&Coke]

It was still crazy...

I can agree to that.

But so was Drew Gooden, Hakeem Warrick, Jared Dudley, David Lee... on it goes. Shaq singling out Joe is just wrong.

[GOBB]

And Shaq was worth the $20mil he made the last 2-3 seasons? :oldlol:

Same Shaq who said "I'm not KG, I dont take paycuts." in regards to the whole drama about who L.A should keep and Shaq contract extension was too much. And how Shaq wasnt going to work with L.A on taking less.

But Joe Johnson gets offered a max deal and its his fault we're in the lockout? No. You can make a good argument to why you feel the wreckless nature of contracts being given out if you want to Shaq. But to single out one player is wrong. What a jackass.

[PowerGlove]

JJ is a franchise player and the third best SG in the league.

People criticizing his contract when Bosh got a 110 million is just ridiculous. He was worth more to the Hawks than people realize. Without him they win 35 games max. go back to losing and even worse attendance numbers, no playoff revenue.

the hawks were a dleague team before his arrival, he's earned this deal.

[Rowe]

JJ is a franchise player and the third best SG in the league.

People criticizing his contract when Bosh got a 110 million is just ridiculous. He was worth more to the Hawks than people realize. Without him they win 35 games max. go back to losing and even worse attendance numbers, no playoff revenue.

the hawks were a dleague team before his arrival, he's earned this deal.
This.

Atlanta had to do that deal, but they should've let Joe Johnson come back with offers elsewhere before going to $120 Million. I dont think Johnson's market was that big elsewhere, I'm sure New Jersey would've gone to $90 Million but I dont see any team going to $100 Million for him.

[Bigsmoke]

Shaq was making 20,000,000 while putting up 12/6 :banana:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2010.html

[Sawbucks23]

Shaq? The same guy who stated in his book that a player should never accept less money and try to make as much money as he can? The same guy who was overpaid the last few seasons for playing half a season. Yes, Joe Johnson's contract is too much, but who would have said no to that contract?

[hawksdogsbraves]

Shaq putting his foot in his mouth, not really a surprise. You can't blame the players in this situation, blame the GM's who are giving out these contracts. Not to mention that Shaq was JUST as overpaid if not moreso toward the end of his career.

[SpecialQue]

Pretty convenient for him to talk about over-payed players after retiring. Someone needs to post a gif of zombie Shaq shambling across the court from last season.

[Droid101]

Not JJ's fault at all. In fact, if he made less, the owners would just have had to pay out more at the end of the season to get the players up to 57% BRI.

That number is the problem.

[Big#50]

Despite the stats Shaq is worth his contract. He is still Shaq. He still makes the news, sells jerseys, ratings etc. Who the fukk is Joe Johnson? Dude is a top 20 player. I dont even think he's the best player on his team. He scores, nothing else.

[ihatetimthomas]

And Shaq was worth the $20mil he made the last 2-3 seasons? :oldlol:

Same Shaq who said "I'm not KG, I dont take paycuts." in regards to the whole drama about who L.A should keep and Shaq contract extension was too much. And how Shaq wasnt going to work with L.A on taking less.

But Joe Johnson gets offered a max deal and its his fault we're in the lockout? No. You can make a good argument to why you feel the wreckless nature of contracts being given out if you want to Shaq. But to single out one player is wrong. What a jackass.

When Shaq was given his contract, he was certainly worth it. You cant even say JJ is worth that contract in year one of the deal.

Reading, Shaq's quotes, he is using JJ's deal as an example to why the NBA is in the place it is. His argument holds truth. Owners shelling out that kind of dough to players who dont deserve it and when they can't afford it. Dont really see how Shaq is being a jackass here. What he says is true. Its not only JJ, but its those types of deals that are making owners lose money. There does need to be some kind of system protecting the owners.

[MiseryCityTexas]

I can agree to that.

But so was Drew Gooden, Hakeem Warrick, Jared Dudley, David Lee... on it goes. Shaq singling out Joe is just wrong.

warrick been overrated since his college career. mello made him look better than what he actually was in college.

[Smoke117]

Joe Johnson is a franchise player? LMFAO. The overrating of Joe Johnson in this thread is hilarious. He should have NEVER got that contract or even close to it. There should be no blame on him though...what player or human being for that matter isn't going to take the money when its offered? The blame completely lies on the owners and franchises who were idiotic enough to pay him this kind of money.

[hawkfan]

Joe Johnson got overpaid - 4 years, 20 million would be accurate, given his talent, production and the fact he hasn't gotten his team to a conference finals.

Even so, his current deal for 4 years is ok. It's the last two years when he is old and broken down that he won't be worth it.

Guys who don't produce on their 5th and 6th years of their contract is far and away the biggest problem for the NBA in terms of salaries.

4 years max length for regular contracts, 3 years max length for MLEs.

[Ikill]

Despite the stats Shaq is worth his contract. He is still Shaq. He still makes the news, sells jerseys, ratings etc. Who the fukk is Joe Johnson? Dude is a top 20 player. I dont even think he's the best player on his team. He scores, nothing else.
He had a down year because of an injury but he's still the best player on the Hawks. JJ does a lot more than just score he pretty mcuh does everything

[longtime lurker]

Joe Johnson is a franchise player? LMFAO. The overrating of Joe Johnson in this thread is hilarious. He should have NEVER got that contract or even close to it. There should be no blame on him though...what player or human being for that matter isn't going to take the money when its offered? The blame completely lies on the owners and franchises who were idiotic enough to pay him this kind of money.

100% correct. The owners have themselves to blame. Atlanta has trouble putting fans in the seat, so what do they do? Overpay Joe John only to still struggle to put fans in the seats. Really can't blame the player for accepting, I'm sure the owners wouldn't stop Joe Johnson if he was willing to accept way less than market value

[ShaqAttack3234]

Did anyone actually read the link? Shaq didn't blame Joe for taking it, he just said that Joe isn't worth the money.


JJ is a franchise player and the third best SG in the league.

People criticizing his contract when Bosh got a 110 million is just ridiculous. He was worth more to the Hawks than people realize. Without him they win 35 games max. go back to losing and even worse attendance numbers, no playoff revenue.

the hawks were a dleague team before his arrival, he's earned this deal.

Definitely not a franchise player, and 3rd best SG? Don't know about that. I'd take Manu over him, and quite a few other players are debatable, particularly based on last season.

And how good would the Hawks be without Smith or Hoford? Joe hasn't even been Atlanta's best player the last 2 seasons, and there are other players who played a huge part in their turnaround.

It certainly wasn't just Joe, especially when you consider that they were 26-56 his first year there and 30-52 his second year there(he missed 25 games, but they were still just 21-36 with him). Third year, they made the playoffs, but were just 37-45. And it's not like Joe has gotten better since then, but his team has.

Bosh is also a much player than Joe, and with guys like Arenas, Lewis and a variety of others, Bosh's contract is far from noteworthy.

[hawkfan]

Joe Johnson isn't the problem.

The real problem are guys like Antoine Walker, Eddy Curry, Larry Hughes, Baron Davis, Steve Francis, Jerome James - guys who either got fat or lazy (or both) and who didn't produce anything at all.

Really a lockout and canceling the whole season would be good for the owners because it would shed one year of bad contracts, making cap space much more manageable across the board next year.

[RoseCity07]

I think Joe Johnson contract was given because the hawks would spend the extra money they paid him in trying to find a replacement of equal value. The thinking behind Shaq's last 20 million dollar seasons. I don't know how you explain that.

[Walker]

"I think we need a system that protect the owners from each other.

[GOBB]

When Shaq was given his contract, he was certainly worth it. You cant even say JJ is worth that contract in year one of the deal.

Reading, Shaq's quotes, he is using JJ's deal as an example to why the NBA is in the place it is. His argument holds truth. Owners shelling out that kind of dough to players who dont deserve it and when they can't afford it. Dont really see how Shaq is being a jackass here. What he says is true. Its not only JJ, but its those types of deals that are making owners lose money. There does need to be some kind of system protecting the owners.

Shaq was given a 5yr $20mil deal. Thats $100mil, you're telling me he was worth it? Shaq was given that for a quick win situation which Miami got and then shipped that contract out to other teams who didnt benefit from the big fella who made $20mil a year. What owners made money in those 5 years he broke the bank? :confusedshrug:

JJ isnt worth his contract and neither was Shaq. But teams both Atlanta and Miami made the decisions to shell out fat contracts and deal with it later on.

You're saying there should be a system to protect the owners? Protect them from what? Themselves? :oldlol:

Gms override owners now? Atlanta didnt have to give Joe Johnson the contract. They could have offered him a reasonable deal, perhaps a lil more than the highest offer he recieved and let the chips fall where they may. They didnt. They overpaid. And you want a system to stop them from doing it when they made the choice too? I'm not understanding that logic one bit.

[Walker]

Shaq was given a 5yr $20mil deal. Thats $100mil, you're telling me he was worth it? Shaq was given that for a quick win situation which Miami got and then shipped that contract out to other teams who didnt benefit from the big fella who made $20mil a year. What owners made money in those 5 years he broke the bank? :confusedshrug:

JJ isnt worth his contract and neither was Shaq. But teams both Atlanta and Miami made the decisions to shell out fat contracts and deal with it later on.

You're saying there should be a system to protect the owners? Protect them from what? Themselves? :oldlol:

Gms override owners now? Atlanta didnt have to give Joe Johnson the contract. They could have offered him a reasonable deal, perhaps a lil more than the highest offer he recieved and let the chips fall where they may. They didnt. They overpaid. And you want a system to stop them from doing it when they made the choice too? I'm not understanding that logic one bit.
Do you really believe for one second New Jersey and probably Chicago too didn't offer JJ a max deal? Come on dude.
Atlanta had two choices, give him a max deal or don't and watch another team give it to him.
It's a catch 22 for owners in the current climate. Pay the huge dollars and lose money or let the stars walk and have the fans revolt...

[GOBB]

Do you really believe for one second New Jersey and probably Chicago too didn't offer JJ a max deal? Come on dude.
Atlanta had two choices, give him a max deal or don't and watch another team give it to him.

It's a catch 22 for owners in the current climate. Pay the huge dollars and lose money or let the stars walk and have the fans revolt...

Chicago could only offer 5yrs $90mil

Atlanta ended up offering him 6yrs $120mil

Atlanta chose to give JJ the highest deal possible when in reality they didnt have too. They could have offered him 5yrs $92mil and let JJ decide whether to stay in Atlanta or go to Chicago. Same with NJ.

Atlanta couldve let him walk but guess what? Another OWNER (so much for creating a system to protect them) would have gladly gave JJ the max amount of money they could (under the CBA rules). So owners are overpaying regardless. So whats the protection for? To stop them from overpaying? Thats a choice they can easily make and dont. But they decide to overpay and deal with the contract later.

Give a guy 5yrs of overpaid salary and after year 2 are shopping him around only to find out some owners dont want to eat that contract and other owners say "I'll eat that contract if you eat 2 bad contracts of mine".

Atlanta didnt have to give JJ the highest possible deal under the CBA. Fact.

Teams are not being held accountable for giving out crappy contracts.

[PowerGlove]

Questions for people:

How is Manu better?

Are you seriously saying he isnt the best player on the Hawks??? Are you going with Horford? Or Smith?:lol

What would you have paid him? (because people act like his market value wasnt the same as a Chris bosh who got 10 million less to be a third option)
-----------------------------


He was the last one left and got the king's ransom but I dont think people understand how this works. Atlanta couldn't have offered what they thought everyone else would or else they would have lost him.

[PowerGlove]

It certainly wasn't just Joe, especially when you consider that they were 26-56 his first year there and 30-52 his second year there(he missed 25 games, but they were still just 21-36 with him). Third year, they made the playoffs, but were just 37-45. And it's not like Joe has gotten better since then, but his team has.

Bosh is also a much player than Joe, and with guys like Arenas, Lewis and a variety of others, Bosh's contract is far from noteworthy.

yup, 100+ million dollar contracts to third options are common place these days.

[Theoo's Daddy]

Shaq earned his contract.dude won 4 rings. What has joe johnson done ??

[longtime lurker]

How come members on a message board can seem to accurately gauge a player's worth, but Owners and GM's with their unlimited resources can't help but overpay?

[Theoo's Daddy]

How come members on a message board can seem to accurately gauge a player's worth, but Owners and GM's with their unlimited resources can't help but overpay?

The owners don't care who they pay, especially if the team is being sold. either way it's a tax write off for them. If they could pay everyone on the team 20M, they would do it.

[bagelred]

Did anyone read the quote? He's not blaming JJ. He says flat out JJ should take all the money he can. He's saying Atlanta shouldn't offer that because JJ's not worth and Atlanta can't afford it.

Didn't we ALL say that about Atlanta when they offered JJ that money? That he's way overpaid?

Wait....but now he IS worth it, because you're trying to be contrarian to Shaq? :hammerhead:

Shaq is right. JJ is not a $20 million a year player. That's not controversial at all.

[EoJ]

http://goofygifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/celebrity-gifs-wtf-shaq.gif

[ihatetimthomas]

Shaq was given a 5yr $20mil deal. Thats $100mil, you're telling me he was worth it? Shaq was given that for a quick win situation which Miami got and then shipped that contract out to other teams who didnt benefit from the big fella who made $20mil a year. What owners made money in those 5 years he broke the bank? :confusedshrug:

JJ isnt worth his contract and neither was Shaq. But teams both Atlanta and Miami made the decisions to shell out fat contracts and deal with it later on.

You're saying there should be a system to protect the owners? Protect them from what? Themselves? :oldlol:

Gms override owners now? Atlanta didnt have to give Joe Johnson the contract. They could have offered him a reasonable deal, perhaps a lil more than the highest offer he recieved and let the chips fall where they may. They didnt. They overpaid. And you want a system to stop them from doing it when they made the choice too? I'm not understanding that logic one bit.

Shaq was still an elite center at the time. Prob him and Yao top 2. At the time, the deal was a bit large, but made a lot more sense than Joe contract. I mean, the Heat got a title out of that contract. He was still a 20+/10+ player. Plus, Shaq has much more notoriety than JJ and helped fill seats for every team he played for.

The system is broken because it forces owners to spend a lot to retain players. Sounds dumb right? Why dont these owners just not spend that much money on players, right? Well, in reality small market teams must spend in order to build a quality team and to keep players at home. The fact that it is allowable to offer guys 20+ over 6 years makes it tough on the owners. Players have all the leverage. And if you want to keep a winning team and keep fans coming back, owners have been forced to unload ungodly amounts of money on players not necessarily worth it.

Look, I am not saying owners are not to blame at all on many of these deals. Many are dumb and spend bad. But a lot of teams overspend bc they have to do so otherwise they lose out on a player or they lose a big name player via free agency. Its a tough situation to be in.

I dont agree with spending all that coin on JJ but lets look at it from their perspective. It took YEARS to build a consistent playoff team. A big reason for that was in fact Joe Johnson. They were basically stuck with this decision. Overspend on him and keep him to keep a decent team in tact and continue to have winning seasons. OR lowball him and lose him via free agency and take a big step backwards. Guarantee he was leaving elsewhere if he didn't receive max money. He would have gone to a better situation. Instead he chose the money. Its really easy to say "hey just dont spend money on these guys" but fact is, if you want to be a relevant team and you are not in a big time market like LA, then you have to overspend to keep players.

[Walker]

Chicago could only offer 5yrs $90mil

Atlanta ended up offering him 6yrs $120mil

Atlanta chose to give JJ the highest deal possible when in reality they didnt have too. They could have offered him 5yrs $92mil and let JJ decide whether to stay in Atlanta or go to Chicago. Same with NJ.

Atlanta couldve let him walk but guess what? Another OWNER (so much for creating a system to protect them) would have gladly gave JJ the max amount of money they could (under the CBA rules). So owners are overpaying regardless. So whats the protection for? To stop them from overpaying? Thats a choice they can easily make and dont. But they decide to overpay and deal with the contract later.

Give a guy 5yrs of overpaid salary and after year 2 are shopping him around only to find out some owners dont want to eat that contract and other owners say "I'll eat that contract if you eat 2 bad contracts of mine".

Atlanta didnt have to give JJ the highest possible deal under the CBA. Fact.

Teams are not being held accountable for giving out crappy contracts.
Exactly my point, another owner would pay him.
If Atlanta wanted to retain him, which they clearly did with the max deal, then they did exactly what they had to do.
If they offered him 5yr, $92mil you know what would happen?
Agent goes to NJ: "They're offering ....."
NJ goes over the top of that, Atl, if they want to keep him, which we know they did, would then have to beat out NJ and so on. End result? Max deal regardless.

Fact is these players, all of them, are getting paid too much. Hard cap, shorter contracts, much lower max $$$ per year = economically healthy NBA.

[GOBB]

ihhatetime good post ill reply to it. Kinda multitasking and my full attention is being taken away right now lol


Exactly my point, another owner would pay him.
If Atlanta wanted to retain him, which they clearly did with the max deal, then they did exactly what they had to do.
If they offered him 5yr, $92mil you know what would happen?
Agent goes to NJ: "They're offering ....."
NJ goes over the top of that, Atl, if they want to keep him, which we know they did, would then have to beat out NJ and so on. End result? Max deal regardless.

Fact is these players, all of them, are getting paid too much. Hard cap, shorter contracts, much lower max $$$ per year = economically healthy NBA.

The max teams outside of Atlanta could offered was already set. They cant offer any more than 5yrs $90mil. My point was Atlanta could gave him more money than other teams could have given...but no one told them it had to be the max of all maxes. Atlanta gave JJ the highest amount of money they could under the CBA at the time. Why? Thats my problem is they didnt have to do that. JJ would have got overpaid regardless, I agree. But they went above and beyond which was not needed given they had the advantage to offer him more than other teams. JJ didnt say or hint "I either get the max of all maxes here or I take the 5yrs $90mil with Chi, Nj, NYK or whomever".

I agree these players are getting paid too much. And lower the max, shorter contracts are cool. I just dont like the fact these owners pretty much f*cked up the market either directly or by hiring and giving the approval of GMs to go out and spend wrecklessly.

[NickTheQuick31]

Atlanta should have let him go, they had Jamal Crawford who could have stepped in to start for the season then used that money to try and get a big man to compliment Horford.

Im a Hawks fan and Id honestly rather have seen JJ gone and the Hawks try for Shannon Brown this offseason to replace him as starter. THis way they could still have enough to re-sign Crawford, and get a big man.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Questions for people:

How is Manu better?

How is Manu not better? He does pretty much everything at least as well, if not better and he's much more clutch than Johnson who has proved to be the opposite of clutch.


Are you seriously saying he isnt the best player on the Hawks??? Are you going with Horford? Or Smith?:lol

Absolutely. Johnson played like trash in the '09 and '10 playoffs, he was truly pathetic in the '09 Cleveland series and '10 Magic series for a player who is supposed to be a star. Smith over Johnson in 2010 is a particularly easy choice, Smith played very well that season. Horford was also more consistent than Johnson last season


What would you have paid him? (because people act like his market value wasnt the same as a Chris bosh who got 10 million less to be a third option)

I said Johnson's contract was bad as soon as he was signed and did not want the Knicks to sign him when it was speculated that they might go after him.

Bosh is several years younger and he's not only a more talented player, but he's consistently been a better player than Johnson for the past 5-6 years.


yup, 100+ million dollar contracts to third options are common place these days.

And third options as good as Bosh are extremely rare. How many other teams would he even be a 3rd option on?

[Snicklefritz]

I remember how Atl fans were booing JJ and the team after they lost to the magic and got knocked out of the playoffs 2 years ago. After seeing how the fans reacted to their own team, I was very surprised that they gave JJ that much money after that playoff run.

[Hondo]

To the people slandering Shaq:

Do fans come solely to the games to see Joe Johnson? No. How about Shaq? Shaq offers a huge boost in fan interest and attendance, even if he's missing games and is a big fat old immobile man, he sells tickets and peaks interest.

I don't think he's worth 20 million as a player at his old age, but he is worth 20 million as a sideshow attraction.

[Walker]

ihhatetime good post ill reply to it. Kinda multitasking and my full attention is being taken away right now lol



The max teams outside of Atlanta could offered was already set. They cant offer any more than 5yrs $90mil. My point was Atlanta could gave him more money than other teams could have given...but no one told them it had to be the max of all maxes. Atlanta gave JJ the highest amount of money they could under the CBA at the time. Why? Thats my problem is they didnt have to do that. JJ would have got overpaid regardless, I agree. But they went above and beyond which was not needed given they had the advantage to offer him more than other teams. JJ didnt say or hint "I either get the max of all maxes here or I take the 5yrs $90mil with Chi, Nj, NYK or whomever".

I agree these players are getting paid too much. And lower the max, shorter contracts are cool. I just dont like the fact these owners pretty much f*cked up the market either directly or by hiring and giving the approval of GMs to go out and spend wrecklessly.
Ok so the max is 5yrs 90mil, never bothered to find out, fair enough.
Now, the biggest chip a team has in retaining their free agents is the ability to offer 6 years instead of 5.
We can both agree that Atlanta deffinately wanted JJ back, so you would think they'd be silly in not using the biggest carrot they have with the extra year. That extra year I would assume would be a very big deal to the players, especially someone nearing 30.
I haven't done the math but I wouldn't think 5yrs, 90mil and 6yrs, 119mil is overly different in terms of year by year payment considering the exponential growth of these contracts.
I guess you can look at it two ways, either the team is stupid for "overpaying" their star (yes he is their star) or they're smart for doing what was nessicary to ensure they retain him as the face of the franchise, same way Sarver will cling on to Nash come hell or high water cause he sell tickets.
Speaking of Sarver, could be worse Atlanta fans, your team could let stars walk for nothing in return cause they're cheapskates :(

[Miserio]

JJ is a franchise player and the third best SG in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCbcdPmc4Bg

[hawkfan]

Shaq's 5 years, 100 million contract was really only an extension of 61 million, because he was already due 31 million under his old contract at that time.

Was he worth 61 million? Absolutely. He won a championship and he put people in seats at NBA arenas. And he was one of the few guys in the league who marketing people could use to bring people in, who otherwise wouldn't come.

Does Joe Johnson put people in seats? No. Is he worth a max deal? For 4 years, yes, because he can get his team into the playoffs. But those extra 2 years are killers.

Did the Hawks have to give Joe Johnson 6 years, 119 million? Yes and no. The Hawks lose him and there would be room for a big man, but then the Hawks lose a consistent franchise player.

And the thing is that when he re-signed, the owners told JJ that they were willing to spend and go over the luxury tax if the Hawks were seriously contending for a championship. But last year we only won 44 games.

Playoffs, all of a sudden the Hawks show up, beating the Magic and then losing to the Bulls in a very competitive series. Add another franchise player, and the Hawks might have made the Finals last year.

But the regular season didn't show any indication of the Hawks playoff success. If it had, then maybe we would have a bigger payroll.

[bdreason]

Hawks had no business giving that contract to JJ. He doesn't put them over the top, and he doesn't sell tickets.

This all falls on the owner for making a poor investment.