ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #6 Bob Cousy VS Isiah Thomas.

[Kblaze8855]

I saw GOAT asked someone to do the next one when he got...upset...for some reason. And the other was bumped with people asking what we were doing with it. So I will simply copy it exactly as he would and when(if) he returns he can take back over and do whatever he feels like. All I will do is list it exactly as he did count the votes(not that you cant count them yourself) of the people he has listed as voters. From this point of the post on im just gonna copy what he did and change what has to be for this round:





Make your arguments here for the next 48 hours on rather Bob Cousy or Isiah Thomas should advance and continue to move higher on the list. Put the players name you are voting for in BOLD so I don't miss it when I tally. The loser of this poll will be ranked #7 in our project.

Only members listed on the project roster will have their votes counted. Anyone may add their opinion and or argument as long as it's constructive. Our roster is now finalized. If you like the project and think you can make it better please add your opinion. If you'd like to join in the forwards, centers or all-time top 67 project, please let GOAT know via PM. The Final Roster is listed below....

The Roster

L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
WillC
G.O.A.T
1987 Lakers
neyca
Toizumi
Shaqattack3234
Magnax1
RobertdeMeijer
nycelt84
KGMN
SteveNashMVPcro

Crossover (added after initial vote)
bizil (added after initial vote)
Boston C's (added at #20)
Gotterdammerung (added at #17)
SuperPippen (added at #14)
Big164 (added at #13)
Droid101 (added at #11)
D.J. (added at #11)
Miller for 3 (added at #10)
Odinn (added at #9)
OmniStrife (added at #9)
HylianNightmare (added at #9)
Pushxx (added at #9)
MasterDurant24 (added at #9)
Clippersfan86 (added at #9)

ThaRegul8r (contributor)
NugzHeat3 (contributor)
Psileas (contributor)
alexandreben (contributor)
EricForman (contributor)




http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ExbAtZnvrGI/TdM6sS3z3DI/AAAAAAAAAB0/sT6gbqFu0-M/s1600/COUS.jpg



14 seasons
12x all-NBA
13x all-star
2x ASG MVP
6x NBA Champion
1957 MVP
8x Assists leader
20-6-8 averages over 9 year prime





http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/237/886/359738_display_image.jpg


13 seasons
5x all-NBA
12x all-star
2x ASG MVP
2x NBA Champion
1990 Finals MVP
1x Assists leader
20-4-10 averages over 8 year prime





When GOAT returns he can take over and do...whatever. I'll work off the poll results in his other topic till he does. So ill count it up in 48 hours or when someone has the majority of possible votes. Or if someone else notices someone has the majority...just make the next one I guess. I dont guess it matters who starts it if its all done the same way.

[Boston C's]

Nice of you to do this kblaze... tough for me but I'll lean slightly towards cousy just because his resume is a tad more impressive

[Gotterdammerung]

Due to Kblaze's relentless pissing on Bob Cousy as an inferior shooter & defender, Isiah Thomas is the right pick.

Although his range was somewhat limited (about 27% from 3FG) he was probably the better finisher in the open court, and better pull-up jump shooter.

Isiah knew how to use his elbows, and routinely stepped on guys' feet as they elevated to attempt as hot.

Since he was the better defender, better shooter, as good a passer, and has awesome willpower (clutch performances, led powerful teams to title by ending two dynasties in the Showtime Lakers and the Bird Celtics, and held off another in Jordan Bulls) and did whatever was necessary to win, I have to go with him over Bob Cousy. :rockon:

[MasterDurant24]

Isiah.

[donald_trump]

interesting that the same people that voted for cousy over wade for cousy being more "accomplished" are now voting for isiah despite wade being more accomplished than isiah.

lol... if you're going to vote, then at least be consistent with your criteria.

[SuperPippen]

It's the whole, "how the hell can you rank this modern superstar over that oldschool legend when he's not even finished with his career yet?" angle.

While I still think that Kblaze undersold Cousy and could've been fairer with his judgements, I respect his arguments and agree with a good amount of his points.

Anyway, I'll give this one to Isiah Thomas. He was a significantly better player than Cousy ever was in more ways than one; better defender, better scorer, better shooter, better leader, and better clutch player. It should be noted, however, that Isiah never made nearly the same impact on his era that Cousy made on his, and Isiah also had the obvious benefit of being born over 30 years later.

What more needs to be said?

[Legends66NBA7]

It's the whole, "how the hell can you rank this modern superstar over that oldschool legend when he's not even finished with his career yet?" angle.

While I still think that Kblaze undersold Cousy and could've been fairer with his judgements, I respect his arguments and agree with a good amount of his points.

Anyway, I'll give this one to Isiah Thomas. He was a significantly better player than Cousy ever was in more ways than one; better defender, better scorer, better shooter, better leader, and better clutch player. It should be noted, however, that Isiah never made nearly the same impact on his era that Cousy made on his, and Isiah also had the obvious benefit of being born over 30 years later.

What more needs to be said?

+1. You should check out the "John Stockton vs Isiah Thomas" thread for your answer of "What more needs to be said ?".

[iamgine]

Skills should never be on the argument vs Bob Cousy. Cause doesn't matter if it's Michael Jordan or Adam Morrison or that random stud from the gym, they all are much more skilled than Bob.

[Clippersfan86]

Isiah Thomas.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Isiah Thomas gets my vote, Cousy shouldn't even be up this high.

[donald_trump]

Anyway, I'll give this one to Isiah Thomas. He was a significantly better player than Cousy ever was in more ways than one; better defender, better scorer, better shooter, better leader, and better clutch player.

im not sure who you voted for in the last thread, but isn't wade better at all those things compared to cousy as well?

[L.Kizzle]

interesting that the same people that voted for cousy over wade for cousy being more "accomplished" are now voting for isiah despite wade being more accomplished than isiah.

lol... if you're going to vote, then at least be consistent with your criteria.
Wade and Isiah are not in a battle, so it's irrelevant.

That's like people voting for Payton over Iverson, but would vote Iverson over Drexler. (Clyde finished above both.)

[WillC]

I've got Isiah Thomas one place above Cousy in my all-time top 100: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html

Thomas' quickness and dribbling ability were uncanny. He was the ultimate pure point guard. He had no weaknesses.

[WillC]

Skills should never be on the argument vs Bob Cousy. Cause doesn't matter if it's Michael Jordan or Adam Morrison or that random stud from the gym, they all are much more skilled than Bob.

Have you seen Bob Cousy play? He was one of the most skillful players ever.

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Isiah Thomas

[iamgine]

Have you seen Bob Cousy play? He was one of the most skillful players ever.
Yep, was.

[Pushxx]

As much as a I hate Isiah Thomas, my vote goes to him.

It's pretty clear he deserves to be higher than Cousy, despite Cousy's revolutionary contributions to basketball.

[Odinn]

I think it's clear; Isiah Thomas.

[tontoz]

interesting that the same people that voted for cousy over wade for cousy being more "accomplished" are now voting for isiah despite wade being more accomplished than isiah.

lol... if you're going to vote, then at least be consistent with your criteria.


Seriously Wade > both of these guys

[Rose]

I love Zeke.

But come on guys, Cousy was an MVP, won 3 times as many rings. And was the best point guard of his era. He was skilled, and the only thing he couldn't do was shoot.(although for his time he was good)

I'm still taking Cousy.

[tontoz]

I love Zeke.

But come on guys, Cousy was an MVP, won 3 times as many rings. And was the best point guard of his era. He was skilled, and the only thing he couldn't do was shoot.(although for his time he was good)

I'm still taking Cousy.


The Celtics won 5 rings after Cousy retired as KBlaze pointed out in the last thread. His own teamates called him out for his lack of defense. i don't think the ring argument holds up.

[KGMN]

Skills should never be on the argument vs Bob Cousy. Cause doesn't matter if it's Michael Jordan or Adam Morrison or that random stud from the gym, they all are much more skilled than Bob.

I think that people greatly underestimate how good players were back then compared to now. Of course, Cousy probably wouldn't be as good in his prime if he played in this era, but saying "that random stud from the gym" is more skilled than Bob seems like an utterly ridiculous statement.

Watch some of this 1962 NBA All-Star Game (it doesn't show all of it) and tell me if the best players back then could not even make it in today's NBA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLBXoFJ05ew

[SuperPippen]

im not sure who you voted for in the last thread, but isn't wade better at all those things compared to cousy as well?

I didn't vote in the last thread (it didn't seem to be going anywhere), but I would have voted for Wade if I did.

Comparing two players from two extremely different eras relies very much upon subjectivity. A lot of objectivity goes out the window, which is why I'm reluctant to chime in on arguments like those, unless there is a player being discussed that I feel particularly strongly about.

[L.Kizzle]

The Celtics won 5 rings after Cousy retired as KBlaze pointed out in the last thread. His own teamates called him out for his lack of defense. i don't think the ring argument holds up.
When Cousy left, they got Hondo and Sam Jones was considered better than Sharman. Also they added Baily Howell.

[Kblaze8855]

Sam Jones was 2 months from 30 when Cousy retired. He was not a new addition to the team or even a recent replacment for Sharman who had retired 2 years earlier. Hondo was on the team with Cousy and wasnt an allstar till 3 years after he retired. And they won 3 rings in a row before Bailey Howell joined the team. The year he arrived they lost for the first time in 8 years actualy.

It was always Bill Russell. The only constant was Bill. He won no matter who was on the team.

[iamgine]

I think that people greatly underestimate how good players were back then compared to now. Of course, Cousy probably wouldn't be as good in his prime if he played in this era, but saying "that random stud from the gym" is more skilled than Bob seems like an utterly ridiculous statement.

Watch some of this 1962 NBA All-Star Game (it doesn't show all of it) and tell me if the best players back then could not even make it in today's NBA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLBXoFJ05ew
That's called hyperbole to illustrate the point.

I don't know about other players but Bob Cousy certainly won't make it by a long shot in today's NBA based on his skills.

[KGMN]

That's called hyperbole to illustrate the point.

I don't know about other players but Bob Cousy certainly won't make it by a long shot in today's NBA based on his skills.

Yes, and I don't like hyperbole. It means that you're making a completely invalid statement to prove your point, and although Adam Morrison is actually pretty good and a completely different player, I'm pretty confident that Cousy is at LEAST around his level.

[iamgine]

Yes, and I don't like hyperbole. It means that you're making a completely invalid statement to prove your point, and although Adam Morrison is actually pretty good and a completely different player, I'm pretty confident that Cousy is at LEAST around his level.
You're free to disagree or not like hyperbole.

[KGMN]

You're free to disagree or not like hyperbole.
Thank you.

[L.Kizzle]

Sam Jones was 2 months from 30 when Cousy retired. He was not a new addition to the team or even a recent replacment for Sharman who had retired 2 years earlier. Hondo was on the team with Cousy and wasnt an allstar till 3 years after he retired. And they won 3 rings in a row before Bailey Howell joined the team. The year he arrived they lost for the first time in 8 years actualy.

It was always Bill Russell. The only constant was Bill. He won no matter who was on the team.
Yes I know this, but people make it seem as Cosuy leaving is the only thing that happened. There were a lot pf factor as to why the Celtic kept winning even after Coust had retired.

Hondo role got larger (and most people consider him better than Cousy.) So when it comes down to it, he was actually Cousy's replacement as far as the offense is concerned at not KC Jones (who was his replacement by position.)

[D.J.]

I voted for Cousy over Wade mainly because Wade has done little else outside of 2006. He did make the Finals this past season(not as the sole star of the team though) and did go to the ECF in '05 with Shaq, but he's done little in the postseason despite being a great regular season performer. Not all his fault, but playoff success does have to count to at least some extent.

I'm voting for Isiah here. He has 2 rings(including that heroic performance in '88 despite still losing), 1 other appearance in the Finals, made the ECF on 2 other occasions, made the All-NBA 1st team 3 times, the 2nd team on 2 other occasions, stepped up his game in the playoffs, and took over games if he had to.

[magnax1]

Sam Jones was 2 months from 30 when Cousy retired. He was not a new addition to the team or even a recent replacment for Sharman who had retired 2 years earlier. Hondo was on the team with Cousy and wasnt an allstar till 3 years after he retired. And they won 3 rings in a row before Bailey Howell joined the team. The year he arrived they lost for the first time in 8 years actualy.

It was always Bill Russell. The only constant was Bill. He won no matter who was on the team.
And probably even more important, Red Auerbach. The Celtics were basically always a winner until Auerbach moved away from full time management in the early 90s.
As for Cousy vs Isiah, I'm not going to vote because I've only seen three games of Cousy, but Cousy would be my choice. Isiah peaked out higher, but dropped off fast. I'm sure somebody is going to say that it's because he changed his role, which just isn't the whole of the story IMO.

[RRR3]

Amazed Cousy is getting any votes, but then again he somehow got past Wade :facepalm

[D.J.]

Amazed Cousy is getting any votes, but then again he somehow got past Wade :facepalm


Getting past Wade was understandable because outside of '06, Wade did little else. Isiah at least has multiple titles as the big dog, has another Finals appearance, 5 appearances in the ECF, multiple All-NBA 1st and 2nd teams, and of course his performance on a sprained ankle in '88.

[Rose]

The Celtics won 5 rings after Cousy retired as KBlaze pointed out in the last thread. His own teamates called him out for his lack of defense. i don't think the ring argument holds up.
I agree, but he has the MVP, to validate the fact that he WAS a good player before Russell got to Boston.

He was the premiere point guard for a decade, only Magic himself can say he's had that time of impact. Guys modelled their game after him. He revolutionized the position.

He played a key role on a team, that's how Reggie Miller's ass got so far in the voting. He hit a few shots in the 90s and early 2000s, and got a LOT further up people's votes because he was a team notch shooter.

And it's not like the Celtics weren't successful pre-Russell, they had just never won. They'd made the playoffs, held their own and got knocked out a few times.

[Kblaze8855]

I think its 10-2 for Isiah at a glance. 5 more for Isiah and we can move on. cousy has to come on strong pretty quickly.

[Rose]

I think its 10-2 for Isiah at a glance. 5 more for Isiah and we can move on. cousy has to come on strong pretty quickly.
Isiah's gonna win. Might as well move on.:lol

[KGMN]

Isiah Thomas

[oolalaa]

Which idiots chose cousy over wade?? :facepalm

My vote goes to the guy who led his team to 3 consecutive nba finals, winning 2 championships and a finals mvp in an incredibly tough era and not the guy who was a 34% playoff shooter in the 50s. Do i have to say anymore?


ISIAH THOMAS

[tontoz]

I agree, but he has the MVP, to validate the fact that he WAS a good player before Russell got to Boston.

He was the premiere point guard for a decade, only Magic himself can say he's had that time of impact. Guys modelled their game after him. He revolutionized the position.

He played a key role on a team, that's how Reggie Miller's ass got so far in the voting. He hit a few shots in the 90s and early 2000s, and got a LOT further up people's votes because he was a team notch shooter.

And it's not like the Celtics weren't successful pre-Russell, they had just never won. They'd made the playoffs, held their own and got knocked out a few times.


They never won a ring without Russell but won 5 without Cousy. I think that says it all.

I haven't seen anyone make a convincing case that Cousy was a vital piece of their title teams. If anything it seems like he led the league in epic fail postseason shooting nights.

[L.Kizzle]

They never won a ring without Russell but won 5 without Cousy. I think that says it all.

I haven't seen anyone make a convincing case that Cousy was a vital piece of their title teams. If anything it seems like he led the league in epic fail postseason shooting nights.
All it says is that John Havlicek became vital peace of the team, he basically took over when Cousy left. KC Jones may have been the point, Hondo was basically doin' what Cousy was none fore but doin it better.

So basically you're saying Hondo > Cousy as mosty people would agree with.

[tontoz]

Getting past Wade was understandable because outside of '06, Wade did little else. Isiah at least has multiple titles as the big dog, has another Finals appearance, 5 appearances in the ECF, multiple All-NBA 1st and 2nd teams, and of course his performance on a sprained ankle in '88.


Done little else?

His career average in the regular season is 25/6/5 shooting 48.5%. Ditto in the posteason. He has won Eastern Conterence player of the month 5 times. He has made the All-Defensive 2nd team 3 times, the All-NBA first team 3 times and the All-NBA 2nd team 3 times.

Little else? :facepalm

[LEFT4DEAD]

WTF Cousy in consideration for #6??!! Funny, really funny.

[tontoz]

All it says is that John Havlicek became vital peace of the team, he basically took over when Cousy left. KC Jones may have been the point, Hondo was basically doin' what Cousy was none fore but doin it better.

So basically you're saying Hondo > Cousy as mosty people would agree with.


Which is exactly why the ring argument doesn't hold up. You can't say Cousy > Isiah or Wade based on the Celtics team success since he was an easily replacable cog in that team.

If you are going to make the case that Cousy is better then you need something other than team success.

[RRR3]

Which is exactly why the ring argument doesn't hold up. You can't say Cousy > Isiah or Wade based on the Celtics team success since he was an easily replacable cog in that team.

If you are going to make the case that Cousy is better then you need something other than team success.

Cousy was better at having field goal percentages lower than Albert Pujols's batting average. :lol

[L.Kizzle]

Which is exactly why the ring argument doesn't hold up. You can't say Cousy > Isiah or Wade based on the Celtics team success since he was an easily replacable cog in that team.

If you are going to make the case that Cousy is better then you need something other than team success.
I don't have Cousy or Zeke, I'm just speaking of Cousy and everyone throwin dirt on him.

[nycelt84]

All it says is that John Havlicek became vital peace of the team, he basically took over when Cousy left. KC Jones may have been the point, Hondo was basically doin' what Cousy was none fore but doin it better.

So basically you're saying Hondo > Cousy as mosty people would agree with.

Hondo never played point nor defended point guards nor was he the primary ball handler on the Celtics. K.C. Jones was the guy who did all the things that Cousy used to do except score.

[D.J.]

Done little else?

His career average in the regular season is 25/6/5 shooting 48.5%. Ditto in the posteason. He has won Eastern Conterence player of the month 5 times. He has made the All-Defensive 2nd team 3 times, the All-NBA first team 3 times and the All-NBA 2nd team 3 times.

Little else? :facepalm


If you take away his title in '06 and his Finals appearance with 2 other superstars, what separates him from Dominique Wilkins? Dominique put up equally good stats, has 4 All-NBA 2nd teams, 2 All-NBA 3rd teams, a 1st team, and runner up for MVP in '86(top 5 on 3 occasions). And people are quick to say Dominique didn't win anything. So really, take away Wade's ring and how is he any different from Dominique?

[Kblaze8855]

Take away him powering his team to a ring?

What possible reason could there be to do that?

[tontoz]

If you take away his title in '06 and his Finals appearance with 2 other superstars, what separates him from Dominique Wilkins? Dominique put up equally good stats, has 4 All-NBA 2nd teams, 2 All-NBA 3rd teams, a 1st team, and runner up for MVP in '86(top 5 on 3 occasions). And people are quick to say Dominique didn't win anything. So really, take away Wade's ring and how is he any different from Dominique?



Wade already beats Nique in 1st team All-NBA 3 to 1 even though his career is far from over. He scored more efficiently (especially in the playoffs) and gets twice as many assists while being a much better defender.

[D.J.]

Wade already beats Nique in 1st team All-NBA 3 to 1 even though his career is far from over. He scored more efficiently (especially in the playoffs) and gets twice as many assists while being a much better defender. So other than offense, defense and postseason play they are about the same.


Wade really wasn't much more efficient. Dominique is a career 46% shooter and that's with him never shooting higher than 44% in any of his final 4 seasons. He shot 47% in his Hawks year, not much lower than Wade's 48.5%. He also could have been a 1st teamer in '87, '88, and '93. Larry Bird was getting All-Defensive nominations when he didn't deserve them. Dominique also cracked 30 PPG twice and was in the 29's on 2 other occasions. Wade has a slight advantage in efficiency, but he's not a better scorer overall.

You can't compare them in assists because Dominique played the 3 for the vast majority of his career. Even then, he was still putting up 3-4 APG.

[magnax1]

They never won a ring without Russell but won 5 without Cousy. I think that says it all.

I haven't seen anyone make a convincing case that Cousy was a vital piece of their title teams. If anything it seems like he led the league in epic fail postseason shooting nights.
Really, you could say Isiah never won until his team was stacked on offense, and became the best defense ever up to that point in most part because of Dennis Rodman

[RRR3]

Wade really wasn't much more efficient. Dominique is a career 46% shooter and that's with him never shooting higher than 44% in any of his final 4 seasons. He shot 47% in his Hawks year, not much lower than Wade's 48.5%. He also could have been a 1st teamer in '87, '88, and '93. Larry Bird was getting All-Defensive nominations when he didn't deserve them. Dominique also cracked 30 PPG twice and was in the 29's on 2 other occasions. Wade has a slight advantage in efficiency, but he's not a better scorer overall.

You can't compare them in assists because Dominique played the 3 for the vast majority of his career. Even then, he was still putting up 3-4 APG.

Wade has been robbed of all-nba first teams and all-defense first teams the past few years, so...

[tontoz]

Really, you could say Isiah never won until his team was stacked on offense, and became the best defense ever up to that point in most part because of Dennis Rodman


That's true. However I don't think they win those titles without isiah either. We already know the Celtics could win titles without Cousy.

I think Isiah was much more important to the Pistons than Cousy was to the Celtics.

[magnax1]

If you take away his title in '06 and his Finals appearance with 2 other superstars, what separates him from Dominique Wilkins? Dominique put up equally good stats, has 4 All-NBA 2nd teams, 2 All-NBA 3rd teams, a 1st team, and runner up for MVP in '86(top 5 on 3 occasions). And people are quick to say Dominique didn't win anything. So really, take away Wade's ring and how is he any different from Dominique?
I think it's quite apparent what seperates them. Wade is way more complete. Much better defender, on another level as a passer, and is a little better scorer (though I guess it's arguable)

[RRR3]

I just realized that Bill Russell must have got a lot of his rebounds cleaning up Cousy's bricks. :lol

[D.J.]

Wade has been robbed of all-nba first teams and all-defense first teams the past few years, so...


Wade was on the All-NBA 1st team in '09 and '10. :facepalm

[RRR3]

Wade was on the All-NBA 1st team in '09 and '10. :facepalm
Okay fine, so sue me. I ****ed up a bit. Still, those are also the only two times he's been all-nba first team. And he's never been first team all-defense. That should not be the case.

[magnax1]

That's true. However I don't think they win those titles without isiah either. We already know the Celtics could win titles without Cousy.

I think Isiah was much more important to the Pistons than Cousy was to the Celtics.
Isiah was definitely replaceable. It was arguable whether Dumars was the better player at that point and time. There weren't a ton of point guards that could've done equally as well or better, but there were at minimum four, and more that could've been argued either way.
As for Cousy I don't think he was replaceable at all the year he won MVP, and a title, and a couple years after that. He was probably the best guard in the league, let alone the best point. Later on? Probably, but his value was still there.
And if we're talking about earlier in Isiah's career, it's another story too.

[D.J.]

Okay fine, so sue me. I ****ed up a bit. Still, those are also the only two times he's been all-nba first team. And he's never been first team all-defense. That should not be the case.


He got snubbed in '09, but that's the only year. 2 time All-NBA 1st team is right. He deserved it in '09 and '10. Probably would have been nominated in '07 if he didn't get hurt.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Wade was on the All-NBA 1st team in '09 and '10. :facepalm
:oldlol:

He did deserve to be on the All-NBA first team in '11 and he should have at least made the All-NBA Defensive second team in '11 but once again Kobe prevails with his reputation. :facepalm

[RRR3]

He got snubbed in '09, but that's the only year. 2 time All-NBA 1st team is right. He deserved it in '09 and '10. Probably would have been nominated in '07 if he didn't get hurt.
:facepalm So he didn't get snubbed this past year?

[D.J.]

:oldlol:

He did deserve to be on the All-NBA first team in '11 and he should have at least made the All-NBA Defensive second team in '11 but once again Kobe prevails with his reputation. :facepalm


And my point being(as I mentioned with Bird's All-Defensive teams) is that Dominique got snubbed and quite a bit solely because the Hawks were never an elite team.



So he didn't get snubbed this past year?


No. 2nd is right where I have him.

[tontoz]

Wade really wasn't much more efficient. Dominique is a career 46% shooter and that's with him never shooting higher than 44% in any of his final 4 seasons. He shot 47% in his Hawks year, not much lower than Wade's 48.5%. He also could have been a 1st teamer in '87, '88, and '93. Larry Bird was getting All-Defensive nominations when he didn't deserve them. Dominique also cracked 30 PPG twice and was in the 29's on 2 other occasions. Wade has a slight advantage in efficiency, but he's not a better scorer overall.

You can't compare them in assists because Dominique played the 3 for the vast majority of his career. Even then, he was still putting up 3-4 APG.


Bird played the 3 too. So does Lebron. So did Pippen. Not seeing your point on the assists. Nique never averaged 4 assists in his entire career. Wade averages 6.3.

As far as the All-NBA teams Wade is going up against Kobe and i think most would agree that he is comparable to Bird as far as competition for All-NBA votes. The fact that Wade already beats Nique 3 to 1 in first teams is telling.

Wade is a career 48%+ shooter. Nique only shot over 48% only twice in his whole career and once was as a rookie averaging under 20 ppg. In the playoffs Wade is also a career 48% shooter. Nique was a career 43% shooter in the playoffs and never shot 48% even for one playoff run.

During the Heat's title playoff run Wade averaged 28 ppg shooting 50% from the field and 38% from 3.

[RRR3]

And my point being(as I mentioned with Bird's All-Defensive teams) is that Dominique got snubbed and quite a bit solely because the Hawks were never an elite team.





No. 2nd is right where I have him.

Wait...you think Kobe>Wade last year? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[IGOTGAME]

Who is next after this matchup?

[Miller for 3]

Thomas for the stated reasons in this thread

[D.J.]

Bird played the 3 too. So does Lebron. So did Pippen. Not seeing your point on the assists. Nique never averaged 4 assists in his entire career. Wade averages 6.3.


Bird, LeBron, and Pippen all were facilitators on their teams. They all handled the ball and often better than most point guards. That wasn't Dominique's game. His job on the team was to score. Doc Rivers and spud Webb handled the ball.



As far as the All-NBA teams Wade is going up against Kobe and i think most would agree that he is comparable to Bird as far as competition for All-NBA votes. The fact that Wade already beats Nique 3 to 1 in first teams is telling.


Dominique should have another All-NBA 1st team or two. He was just as good individually as Wade.



Wade is a career 48%+ shooter. Nique only shot over 48% only twice in his whole career and once was as a rookie averaging under 20 ppg. In the playoffs Wade is also a career 48% shooter. Nique was a career 43% shooter in the playoffs and never shot 48% even for one playoff run.


Dominique shot 47% in his Hawks years. Not much of a difference from Wade's 48%. Their playoff years can't be compared because Dominique didn't play in enough games most of the time. Wade has been in deep playoff runs before. Dominique played in 5 or fewer games in 7 of his 10 playoff appearances.



During the Heat's title playoff run Wade averaged 28 ppg shooting 50% from the field and 38% from 3.


I'll make sure to give him a cookie if I see him.

[D.J.]

Wait...you think Kobe>Wade last year? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Wade's numbers and overall play fell a bit from his 2009 and 2010 seasons. Kobe was a bit more consistent than Wade.

[magnax1]

Wade's numbers and overall play fell a bit from his 2009 and 2010 seasons. Kobe was a bit more consistent than Wade.
This season was by far Kobe's biggest drop in production so far. Kobe's play fell quite tremendously.

[Legends66NBA7]

Who is next after this matchup?

Well the remaining 5 are Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Kobe Bryant, and Jerry West. That's a tough big 5 to choose from.

After reconsidering, i think Oscar Robertson will be next.

[tontoz]

Isiah was definitely replaceable. It was arguable whether Dumars was the better player at that point and time. There weren't a ton of point guards that could've done equally as well or better, but there were at minimum four, and more that could've been argued either way.
As for Cousy I don't think he was replaceable at all the year he won MVP, and a title, and a couple years after that. He was probably the best guard in the league, let alone the best point. Later on? Probably, but his value was still there.
And if we're talking about earlier in Isiah's career, it's another story too.


the year he won MVP he shot 32.4% in the playoffs. In game 7 Cousy went 2-20 from the field. We know he was a lame defender.

Sure Isiah could have been replaced with an All-Star.

[RRR3]

Wade's numbers and overall play fell a bit from his 2009 and 2010 seasons. Kobe was a bit more consistent than Wade.
:facepalm

[tontoz]

Bird, LeBron, and Pippen all were facilitators on their teams. They all handled the ball and often better than most point guards. That wasn't Dominique's game.


So in other words his lack of assists were not because he was playing the 3. Thank you.


Their playoff years can't be compared because Dominique didn't play in enough games most of the time.

Nique played in 56 playoff games. Looks like a reasonable sample size to me. He might have played more if he played better.


I'll make sure to give him a cookie if I see him.


That tells me all I need to know.

[magnax1]

the year he won MVP he shot 32.4% in the playoffs. In game 7 Cousy went 2-20 from the field. We know he was a lame defender.

Sure Isiah could have been replaced with an All-Star.
His value was in his passing, not his scoring. And 33% in the 50s is basically as bad as what Jason Kidd did on the Nets.

[tontoz]

His value was in his passing, not his scoring. And 33% in the 50s is basically as bad as what Jason Kidd did on the Nets.

His passing better be dam good to make up for 2-20 in game 7.

At least Kidd plays both ends of the court and is a strong rebounder. Seems like Cousy was indifferent to defense.

[magnax1]

His passing better be dam good to make up for 2-20 in game 7.

At least Kidd plays both ends of the court and is a strong rebounder. Seems like Cousy was indifferent to defense.
Probably, though I'd expect the reports are pretty badly exaggerated, as tends to happen. You'd think Steve Nash was the worst defender of all time going by the way people usually talk about him.
And that is the reason I refuse to vote either way on Cousy, lol.
Though I have to say one shitty game means very little in the course of a player's career.

[Kblaze8855]

Thats 12 for Isiah I think. 3 from over. Not that cousy can catch up now anyway

[Kblaze8855]

It really really wasnt one though. If you look into his few game logs that isnt even that odd for him.

[magnax1]

It really really wasnt one though. If you look into his few game logs that isnt even that odd for him.
Maybe so, but his averages were none the less were much better then 10%. Just picking out games doesn't mean anything.

[D-Wade316]

I rank Wade over Isiah but not over Bob.

[Bigsmoke]

Zeke

What I look like voting for some old white guy?

[Big164]

Zeke was pretty good.

Isiah Thomas

[L.Kizzle]

Zeke

What I look like voting for some old white guy?
Once you're passed 80, you are no longer old, just lucky!

[RRR3]

Is this done yet?

[Kblaze8855]

13-2 for Isiah. With 29 voters its 2 from decided. Clearly cousy wont catch up in the next 2 hours and 20 minutes though so....just a moment.

[Gotterdammerung]

13-2 for Isiah. With 29 voters its 2 from decided. Clearly cousy wont catch up in the next 2 hours and 20 minutes though so....just a moment.
You need to edit the OP to reflect the votes/voters, instead of adding the total at the end of this thread, like GOAT does.

Has anyone contacted him or heard from him? :confusedshrug: