Jerry West vs Kobe Bryant. Who is the second greatest shooting guard ?

[Legends66NBA7]

I think this battle may or may not be upcoming on the ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project, but i wanted others to go in on this topic before it would happen, just to gather more of an understanding about this debate here on ISH.

There seems to be a general consensus that Kobe Bryant is the second greatest shooting guard of all-time. And while the credit for that is very much due and deserved since the 2010 finals and Kobe collecting his 2 consecutive Finals MVP and second consecutive chip as the leader, is it still not West that still holds most of value and edge statistically as the better player ?

Hasn

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I think this battle may or may not be upcoming on the ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project, but i wanted others to go in on this topic before it would happen, just to gather more of an understanding about this debate here on ISH.

There seems to be a general consensus that Kobe Bryant is the second greatest shooting guard of all-time. And while the credit for that is very much due and deserved since the 2010 finals and Kobe collecting his 2 consecutive Finals MVP and second consecutive chip as the leader, is it still not West that still holds most of value and edge statistically as the better player ?

Hasn

[BlackJoker23]

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I think this battle may or may not be upcoming on the ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project, but i wanted others to go in on this topic before it would happen, just to gather more of an understanding about this debate here on ISH.

There seems to be a general consensus that Kobe Bryant is the second greatest shooting guard of all-time. And while the credit for that is very much due and deserved since the 2010 finals and Kobe collecting his 2 consecutive Finals MVP and second consecutive chip as the leader, is it still not West that still holds most of value and edge statistically as the better player ?

Hasn

[Jacks3]

There seems to be a general consensus that Kobe Bryant is the second greatest shooting guard of all-time. And while the credit for that is very much due and deserved since the 2010 finals and Kobe collecting his 2 consecutive Finals MVP and second consecutive chip as the leader, is it still not West that still holds most of value and edge statistically as the better player ?


No, Kobe is very easily the better player. Put Kobe in the 60's and he'd put up 38-42+/7-8/6-7/2-3/56-58% TS a night.

[knightfall88]

this is a tough one. I think I will have to go with the guy who can dribble with his left hand

[RRR3]

VERY CLOSE. I give Kobe a slight edge based on his five rings.
:facepalm Not this again.

[with malice]

Whilst I'd go Kobe, I think it's folly to state that if you put a guy back and say he'd do so much better... without factoring in the realities you'd have to take away like advanced training, weight programs, diet et al.
Same with bringing a guy - like West - forward to this point in time. You must assume that he'd have the benefits of better training, greater awareness of what's going to improve his game, and all the benefits that current players enjoy.

[ThaSwagg3r]

The answer is Kobe and it has been since 2009 when he won his first championship. I didn't read a damn thing in your post but it more than likely wouldn't have changed my mind anyway.

[knightfall88]

Whilst I'd go Kobe, I think it's folly to state that if you put a guy back and say he'd do so much better... without factoring in the realities you'd have to take away like advanced training, weight programs, diet et al.
Same with bringing a guy - like West - forward to this point in time. You must assume that he'd have the benefits of better training, greater awareness of what's going to improve his game, and all the benefits that current players enjoy.

Kobe is still black when you send him back in time

[DMAVS41]

About as close as it gets from what I gather...but I lean towards Kobe because he's got the 5 titles. I don't think titles should matter as much as most do, but its hard to ignore how much of a key role Kobe has played in 5 different title teams now.

Sometimes players have great circumstances...but they still have to go out there and perform and get the job done. Nothing is easy.

[Heavincent]

Kobe.

[SuperPippen]

this is a tough one. I think I will have to go with the guy who can dribble with his left hand


Can your dumb ass do me a favor?

Can you point out which hand Jerry West is dribbling with in the freaking NBA logo? Or is that beyond your extremely limited mental capacity?

[Doctor Rivers]

Wade.

disappointing thread

[RRR3]

About as close as it gets from what I gather...but I lean towards Kobe because he's got the 5 titles. I don't think titles should matter as much as most do, but its hard to ignore how much of a key role Kobe has played in 5 different title teams now.

Sometimes players have great circumstances...but they still have to go out there and perform and get the job done. Nothing is easy.
Unless you're Brian Scalabrine, Luke Walton or Adam Morrison. No one can deny those dudes were flat-out GIFTED rings. :lol

[EnoughSaid]

Dwyane Wade

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO!!

[Doctor Rivers]

Dwyane Wade


:applause:

[SuperPippen]

Whilst I'd go Kobe, I think it's folly to state that if you put a guy back and say he'd do so much better... without factoring in the realities you'd have to take away like advanced training, weight programs, diet et al.
Same with bringing a guy - like West - forward to this point in time. You must assume that he'd have the benefits of better training, greater awareness of what's going to improve his game, and all the benefits that current players enjoy.

I agree.

Very good post.

[Doctor Rivers]

Whilst I'd go Kobe, I think it's folly to state that if you put a guy back and say he'd do so much better... without factoring in the realities you'd have to take away like advanced training, weight programs, diet et al.
Same with bringing a guy - like West - forward to this point in time. You must assume that he'd have the benefits of better training, greater awareness of what's going to improve his game, and all the benefits that current players enjoy.

eh...depends how we are "bringing back/forward" players. at birth? 18 years old?

[DMAVS41]

Whilst I'd go Kobe, I think it's folly to state that if you put a guy back and say he'd do so much better... without factoring in the realities you'd have to take away like advanced training, weight programs, diet et al.
Same with bringing a guy - like West - forward to this point in time. You must assume that he'd have the benefits of better training, greater awareness of what's going to improve his game, and all the benefits that current players enjoy.

You have to compare players in some sense to their peers and what they did in their era.

This notion that West is not as good because of dribbling skills or something is silly.

[Thorn]

Very close. I would take Kobe, but I believe it's unfair to penalize West for winning one ring. He did just about everything he could in the Finals and fell *just* short of winning the title in many of them. On top of pulling off some ridiculously clutch performances, he had terrible luck. Selvy's miss in Game 7 1962. Baylor's knees falling apart. Don Nelson's shot in Game 7 1969 and Van Breda Kolff not putting Wilt back in (hell West won the Finals MVP in a year he lost in). Willis Reed's return in Game 7 1970.

To make an addition to with malice's point - I believe that if Kobe was replaced with West on the 00s Lakers...they'd have around the same success as they did with Kobe. Can't go wrong with either though - both all-time greats.:cheers:

[with malice]

I agree.

Very good post.
Thanks. On very rare occasions, I might get something right!


eh...depends how we are "bringing back/forward" players. at birth? 18 years old?
Well, firstly - I think it's a flawed notion anyway - but it would have to be in the sense of "allowing all", wouldn't it? I mean, in the example we're studying, if Kobe were playing in the 60s, he wouldn't have had any of the benefits he's had now. Same with West: if he were playing now, he would have had all of the same benefits.


You have to compare players in some sense to their peers and what they did in their era.

This notion that West is not as good because of dribbling skills or something is silly.
Hehe - which is pretty much what I said! We agree.

[Jacks3]

Nope. Kobe in the 60's would be the same player. Just measuring them as players, Kobe is easily better.

[RRR3]

Nope. Kobe in the 60's would be the same player. These hypothetical what-ifs are silly. Just measuring them as players, Kobe is easily better.
Neither one is "easily" better than the other. They're very close, regardless of who you'd pick. And I would pick Kobe if you're wondering.

[with malice]

Nope. Kobe in the 60's would be the same player. These hypothetical what-ifs are silly. Just measuring them as players, Kobe is easily better.
C'mon man? Without the benefit of all the training? He may well have a similar impact, but stating that he'd be "the same player" is a lil' bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Tho' I do agree: the "what-ifs" are a flawed concept in the first place...

[SuperPippen]

No, Kobe is very easily the better player. Put Kobe in the 60's and he'd put up 38-42+/7-8/6-7/2-3/56-58% TS a night.

As with malice already said, you can't just expect to see stats and results like those if you speculate on what a modern player would do in an older era. For honest, fair speculation, you have to make believe that that player was born at around the same time as players of the older era.

Kobe isn't "very easily" the better player. Is he more athletic? Yes. Does he play with a modern skill set (advanced dribbling, shooting, etc.) in comparison to West? Of course. Does he have the huge advantage of playing in the modern era of basketball? Obviously.

For the record, I believe Kobe is superior. I rank Kobe as the second greatest SG of all time, and West 3rd. I'd rather have Kobe. But it's a lot closer than most people think.

You can't just insert 2006 Kobe into the old school era and expect to play with the same skillet, highflying mindset (flashy dunks, lay-ups, etc.) and medical advantages of today's era. The game just hadn't evolved to that point yet.

A fair basis for speculation about what Kobe would've done in the 60's is, I think, Elgin Baylor. Kobe and Elgin were the same height, very similar athletically (Elgin actually looks even more muscular than Kobe in a lot of old school vids), and Elgin was a lifetime Laker, as well, (for whatever that's worth).

Obviously, Kobe would still be a fantastic, All-NBA player, because greatness is greatness regardless of whatever era it's from. But you can't expect him to be tossing out ungodly numbers like that.

[Legends66NBA7]

Some great and well thought out comments guys.

And unfortunately, some predicatable ones.

In terms of people saying put West in today's NBA and Kobe back in the 60's... I think that the true question you should be asking is:

What if West was born in 1978 and grew up during that era ? How good would he be with the footage of former players before him at his access ? And yes, with malice brought this up, the benefits of better training, greater awareness of what's going to improve his game, and all the benefits that current players. Not to mention the advanced training, diets, etc..

What if Kobe was born in 1939 and grew up during that era ? How good would he be with limited to no footage of former player and current players ? Less training, less awareness of what's going to improve his games, and trying to make a name for himself in a developing league ?

That's my interpretation of the "put him back in this era" statement.

[knightfall88]

C'mon man? Without the benefit of all the training? He may well have a similar impact, but stating that he'd be "the same player" is a lil' bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Tho' I do agree: the "what-ifs" are a flawed concept in the first place...

equal training won't turn a JJ Reddick into Vince Carter.

Kobe is blessed with athletic talents leagues above what West ever had and it makes no difference what kind of training they might have.



Can your dumb ass do me a favor?

Can you point out which hand Jerry West is dribbling with in the freaking NBA logo? Or is that beyond your extremely limited mental capacity?


Oh you arguing your point with a logo? are you a fckn idiot? How about watching Jerry West footage and observing that he his weak with his left hand

[Legends66NBA7]

C'mon man? Without the benefit of all the training? He may well have a similar impact, but stating that he'd be "the same player" is a lil' bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Tho' I do agree: the "what-ifs" are a flawed concept in the first place...

Yup, pretty much. But since we don't have time travel or anything similar to the sort. If it was, Kobe going back to the past, he would probably a large scale impact, as a lot of those players in the 60's wouldn't even suspect something of that nature and we would probably have different rankings today.

[SuperPippen]

equal training won't turn a JJ Reddick into Vince Carter.

Kobe is blessed with athletic talents leagues above what West ever had and it makes no difference what kind of training they might have.

Yeah, Kobe was more athletic. That much is extremely obvious.

Playing in the modern era still gives players significant advantages that players in the older era never had.

[pauk]

its extremly close... different accomplishments but still very comparable.... ill go with jerry "mr clutch" west....

one more thing which doesnt show on the statsheet.... he impacted the league & nba as not many other....

and:

"He was chosen to be the white silhouette on the NBA logo because the NBA considered West the symbol of perfection as a basketball player."

[SuperPippen]

equal training won't turn a JJ Reddick into Vince Carter.

Kobe is blessed with athletic talents leagues above what West ever had and it makes no difference what kind of training they might have.





Oh you arguing your point with a logo? are you a fckn idiot? How about watching Jerry West footage and observing that he his weak with his left hand

I ASSURE you that I've seen much more West footage than you have, and it's plainly obvious that he could dribble with his left hand.

Was as he as good with his left as he was with his right? No, but he wasn't weak with his left hand, and many players today are also significantly better with one hand than the other.

[Sarcastic]

No, Kobe is very easily the better player. Put Kobe in the 60's and he'd put up 38-42+/7-8/6-7/2-3/56-58% TS a night.

Too bad there is no such thing as a time machine, so that we can pick up and drop each of them into other times and see how they fair.

Better to judge them against their peers, and come to a conclusion that way.




I think Kobe still comes out as the better player, without the help of a time machine. Kobe was legitimately the best player in the league during his career. West had some great seasons, but I don't think you can say anyone would take him ahead of Wilt, Russell, or Oscar.

[with malice]

equal training won't turn a JJ Reddick into Vince Carter.

Kobe is blessed with athletic talents leagues above what West ever had and it makes no difference what kind of training they might have.

Wait... so you're equating Jerry West with JJ Reddick? Isn't that a failed comparison before we even begin?

Anyway, it is simply a fact: if Jerry were a player today (as Legends66NBA7 suggested), he'd be better than he was. That's inescapable.
Likewise, if Kobe were born back then, he wouldn't be the player he is now.

[SuperPippen]

Too bad there is no such thing as a time machine, so that we can pick up and drop each other them into other times and see how they fair.

Better to judge them against their peers, and come to a conclusion that way.




I think Kobe still comes out as the better player, without the held of a time machine. Kobe was legitimately the best player in the league during his career. West had some great seasons, but I don't think you can say anyone would take him ahead of Wilt, Russell, or Oscar.

IMO, West was definitely the best player in the league in 1970, and there are several other years where he was among the top 3.

[ZaaaaaH]

its extremly close... different accomplishments but still very comparable.... ill go with jerry "mr clutch" west....

one more thing which doesnt show on the statsheet.... he impacted the league & nba as not many other....

and:

"He was chosen to be the white silhouette on the NBA logo because the NBA considered West the symbol of perfection as a basketball player."


So West is 100x better then LeBron?

Yea its real ~

[Legends66NBA7]

I ASSURE you that I've seen much more West footage than you have, and it's plainly obvious that he could dribble with his left hand.

Was as he as good with his left as he was with his right? No, but he wasn't weak with his left hand, and many players today are also significantly better with one hand than the other.

Actually, i did gather a source about Jerry West and the myth about him being "weak" with his left hand:

"A complex guy, a true winner. I knew a guy that played with him at West Virginia. His weakness was his left hand. After the team practice, West would play left handed with any of his teammates that had the energy. Then he would go and play in the pickup games, strictly left handed, shooting, dribbling. Some of the gym rats would take advantage of him, but it didn’t bother West at all. He eventually mastered his left hand, and there’s not many people around with that kind of self evaluation and focus."

[pauk]

So West is 100x better then LeBron?

Yea its real ~

well yea.... west had a much better career... to early to compare lebrons career with the likes of jerry & kobe...

[Sarcastic]

IMO, West was definitely the best player in the league in 1970, and there are several other years where he was among the top 3.

Obviously Mr Logo was an amazing player, and had some great seasons, but if you watched the NBA from about 2002-2007, it is very hard to say Kobe was not the best player in the league. The team results weren't always there, so he didn't win MVPs, but he was playing at a different level at that time. The closest thing I have ever seen to Jordan.

[Legends66NBA7]

well yea.... west had a much better career... to early to compare lebrons career with the likes of jerry & kobe...

And in context of finals numbers, West has some notable records. LeBron... well you know the deal.. Kobe, been there, although he's been very sub-par in most of his apperances.

[ThaSwagg3r]

if you watched the NBA from about 2002-2007, it is very hard to say Kobe was not the best player in the league.
:confusedshrug:

I thought you said LeBron was the best since his 2nd season or something? Who is the best player in the league to you from 2002-2010?

This would be mine.....

2002 - Shaq
2003 - Duncan
2004 - KG
2005 - Duncan
2006 - Wade/Kobe
2007 - Duncan/Kobe
2008 - Kobe
2009 - Kobe/LeBron
2010 - Kobe/LeBron/Wade

[Sarcastic]

:confusedshrug:

I thought you said LeBron was the best since his 2nd season or something? Who is the best player in the league to you from 2002-2010?

This would be mine.....

2002 - Shaq
2003 - Duncan
2004 - KG
2005 - Duncan
2006 - Wade/Kobe
2007 - Duncan/Kobe
2008 - Kobe
2009 - Kobe/LeBron
2010 - Kobe/LeBron/Wade

Shoulda said about 2006 for Kobe. Lebron took over at 2007 for me.

[pauk]

:confusedshrug:

I thought you said LeBron was the best since his 2nd season or something? Who is the best player in the league to you from 2002-2010?

This would be mine.....

2002 - Shaq
2003 - Duncan
2004 - KG
2005 - Duncan
2006 - Wade/Kobe
2007 - Duncan/Kobe
2008 - Kobe
2009 - Kobe/LeBron
2010 - Kobe/LeBron/Wade

2002-03 - Shaq
2003-04 - Kobe/T-Mac
2004-05 - Kobe
2005-06 - Kobe
2006-07 - Kobe/Lebron
2007-08 - Lebron
2008-09 - Lebron
2009-10 - Lebron
2010-11 - Lebron

with other words... no overrating of team accomplishments.... only ranking the individuals themselves...... not what their TEAMS achieved.... only just who overall performed/produced the BEST in the season & playoffs overall (with or without ending up with a championship)... and ofcourse team impact based on what they had to work with around them & domination...

[A.M.G.]

I'll go with Oscar Robertson.

[Heavincent]

2002-03 - Shaq
2003-04 - Kobe/T-Mac
2004-05 - Kobe
2005-06 - Kobe
2006-07 - Kobe/Lebron
2007-08 - Lebron
2008-09 - Lebron
2009-10 - Lebron
2010-11 - Lebron

with other words... no overrating of team accomplishments.... only just who overall performed/produced the BEST in the season & playoffs overall... and ofcourse team impact based on what they had to work with around them & domination...

I can't tell if you're trolling or not. Kobe was the best player in 07-08. There's not even much room for debate.

And Dirk was the best player in 2010-11.

[with malice]

I can't tell if you're trolling or not. Kobe was the best player in 07-08. There's not even much room for debate.

And Dirk was the best player in 2010-11.
I'd say LeBron was a better player in the regular season, Dirk in the playoffs. And I know which I'd prefer.
Overall? I don't know that you can gag like that in a Finals and be regarded the best player in the league...

[Sarcastic]

2002-03 - Shaq
2003-04 - Kobe/T-Mac
2004-05 - Kobe
2005-06 - Kobe
2006-07 - Kobe/Lebron
2007-08 - Lebron
2008-09 - Lebron
2009-10 - Lebron
2010-11 - Lebron

with other words... no overrating of team accomplishments.... only ranking the individuals themselves...... not what their TEAMS achieved.... only just who overall performed/produced the BEST in the season & playoffs overall (with or without ending up with a championship)... and ofcourse team impact based on what they had to work with around them & domination...

This is pretty much exactly how I would rank it.

Jordan from 1987-1998. Shaq from 1999-2002/3. Kobe from 2002/3-2006/7. Lebron from 2006/7-present. Lebron should have about 3-4 more years as the best player in basketball.

[with malice]

He'll have to get over his performance anxiety...

[ZaaaaaH]

well yea.... west had a much better career... to early to compare lebrons career with the likes of jerry & kobe...

Good. Dont let me expose you with ur bias towards Kobe.

This thread should end with a clip of Jerry saying Kobe is the GREATEST LAKER of ALL TIME.

Of course haters gonna still hate.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Imagine if Kobe was for 1-8 in the Finals :oldlol:

People are really bringing up Shaq when West's only title was headlined by his teammate Wilt Chamberlain's Finals MVP?

[pauk]

I can't tell if you're trolling or not. Kobe was the best player in 07-08. There's not even much room for debate.

And Dirk was the best player in 2010-11.

Lebron was better in 2006-07 aswell when i think about.... Lebron was more productive overall and went to the Finals with that scrub team, by having that historic playoff performance especially against the champions Detroit......


I go only by facts... sorry... no opinions here....

Lets start of with Lebron vs Kobe 2007-08

LEBRON Season
30 ppg
8 rpg
7 apg
48% FG
Led the league in Triple Doubles.
Led the league in PER / EFF.
Led the league in Scoring.

KOBE Season
28 ppg
6 rpg
5 apg
46% FG

LEBRON Playoffs
28 ppg
8 rpg
8 apg
41% FG
Led the league in Triple Doubles.
Led the league in PER / EFF.
Lost to Champions Celtics 4-3.

KOBE Playoffs
30 ppg
5 rpg
5 apg
48% FG
Led the league in Scoring.
Lost to Champions Celtics 4-2.

OVERALL - LEBRON WINS.........



--------------------------------------------


And now, LEBRON vs DIRK :facepalm 2010-11


LEBRON Season
27 ppg
8 rpg
7 apg
51% FG
Led the league in Triple Doubles.
Led the league in PER / EFF.
Led the league in Winshares
Led the league in Defensive Winshares.
Led the league in Offensive Winshares.
Left the best team and they became the worst team in the nba.
Joined a mediocre team who havent won a playoff series in 5 years and they went to NBA Finals.
1st team All-NBA
1st All-Defensive team.
524 MVP votes... 2nd in 1st Place votes.

DIRK Season
23 ppg
7 rpg
2 apg
51% FG
2nd team All-NBA
113 MVP votes.

LEBRON Playoffs
24 ppg
8 rpg
6 apg
47% FG
Led the league in Triple Doubles.
Led the league in Winshares
Led the league in Defensive Winshares
3rd in PER/EFF
Lost to Dallas Mavericks in NBA Finals 4-2.

DIRK Playoffs
27 ppg
8 rpg
2 apg
48% FG
2nd in PER/EFF
Won against Miami Heat in NBA Finals 4-2, NBA Finals MVP.

OVERALL - LEBRON WINS.........

[Legends66NBA7]

^^ Pauk, stick to the thread, please. Put that stuff in another thread.

[G-Funk]

2002-03 - Shaq
2003-04 - Kobe/T-Mac
2004-05 - Kobe
2005-06 - Kobe
2006-07 - Kobe
2007-08 - Kobe
2008-09 - Kobe
2009-10 - Kobe/Lebron
2010-11 - Lebron

[SuperPippen]

2002-03 - Shaq
2003-04 - Kobe/T-Mac
2004-05 - Kobe
2005-06 - Kobe
2006-07 - Kobe
2007-08 - Kobe
2008-09 - Kobe
2009-10 - Kobe/Lebron
2010-11 - Lebron

Kobe wasn't anywhere near the best in either '04 or '05.

I'll give '06, '07, '08, as the years when Kobe was the definitive best player in the league. You could also argue '09, and Kobe was arguably in the top 3 in '01, '03, and '10, as well.

[bballnoob1192]

VERY CLOSE. I give Kobe a slight edge based on his five rings.

incoming retard saying err herp derp horry has 7 rings so he must be better than jordan right herr derr

[EnoughSaid]

You can't really compare a dude that played in the 60's and 70's to a dude playing now. You can just say they're great in their own respective eras.

[the_wise_one]

Neither. It's Manu Ginobili who's the 2nd GOAT SG.

[StarJordan]

Jerry West's stats are better

[The-Legend-24]

Wait, Kobe's the #1 Shooting guard of all time. Op, change title to Mgay vs Jerry west.

:cheers:

[StarJordan]

he's not even the #1 laker sg of all time. He'd be on the bench

[The-Legend-24]

he's not even the #1 laker sg of all time. He'd be on the bench
Who? Jerry West? I know right. That dude won't be needed, especially when you got BEAN lighting up the show.

[SuperPippen]

Who? Jerry West? I know right. That dude won't be needed, especially when you got BEAN lighting up the show.

Rene with another classic post.

:rockon:

[D-Wade316]

Dwyane Wade

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO!!
This.

1. MJ
2. Wade
3. West
4. Kobe

[drainthe3]

actually i know alot of people put kobe in the top 10 all time and jerry west isnt in there so shouldnt kobe be the choice here?

[KenneBell]

If you ask Jerry West he'd say Kobe.

[Bigsmoke]

Yo mama

[tontoz]

If you compare the players based on their accomplishments in their own era then it is close. West put up some huge numbers.

But this business about what if Kobe played in that era or what if West played in this era is a bit silly. West was 6'2". I think West would definitely have a problem playing the 2 in this era at that size. Kobe has a pretty clear advantage in that scenario.

[Math2]

VERY CLOSE. I give Kobe a slight edge based on his five rings.

I give it to West. West had a MUCH better skill set than Kibe

[D-Wade316]

West's height is of no disadvantage even if he plays today. The guy was a monster once the playoffs starts.

[jlauber]

West's height is of no disadvantage even if he plays today. The guy was a monster once the playoffs starts.

West had unusually long arms (something like a 42" sleeve), and he could easily touch the square in the backboard.

He had what is generally regarded as the most perfect jump shot, as well. He wouldn't have had to do too much to adapt to today's NBA.

[SuperPippen]

If you compare the players based on their accomplishments in their own era then it is close. West put up some huge numbers.

But this business about what if Kobe played in that era or what if West played in this era is a bit silly. West was 6'2". I think West would definitely have a problem playing the 2 in this era at that size. Kobe has a pretty clear advantage in that scenario.

West would be listed at 6 foot 4 today.

If you watch some video of him, he really doesn't look very much shorter than someone like Dwyane Wade at all.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

I think every non hater universally agrees that Kobe is ranked ahead of West at this point. West was just in a bad situation, so he gets penalized for winning 1 title and a FMVP on the losing team.

[SuperPippen]

I think every non hater universally agrees that Kobe is ranked ahead of West at this point. West was just in a bad situation, so he gets penalized for winning 1 title and a FMVP on the losing team.

Pretty much.

I just have a problem with people crapping on West and saying some asinine bullshit like "that white guy who couldn't even dribble with his left hand would be a scrub in today's NBA."

[ShaqAttack3234]

2002-03 - Shaq
2003-04 - Kobe/T-Mac
2004-05 - Kobe
2005-06 - Kobe
2006-07 - Kobe/Lebron
2007-08 - Lebron
2008-09 - Lebron
2009-10 - Lebron
2010-11 - Lebron

with other words... no overrating of team accomplishments.... only ranking the individuals themselves...... not what their TEAMS achieved.... only just who overall performed/produced the BEST in the season & playoffs overall (with or without ending up with a championship)... and ofcourse team impact based on what they had to work with around them & domination...

What a horrible list.

2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2005- Probably Duncan, either way, it sure as hell wasn't Kobe
2006- Kobe
2007- Kobe
2008- Kobe
2009- Lebron
2010- Lebron

:oldlol: at T-Mac being arguably the best in 2004. Yes, he had a horrible cast and had some phenomenal games offensively, but the best or 2nd best player does not lose 18 games in a row or end up with the worst record in the league.


Lebron was better in 2006-07 aswell when i think about.... Lebron was more productive overall and went to the Finals with that scrub team, by having that historic playoff performance especially against the champions Detroit......

Kobe was clearly better than Lebron in 2007. Lebron had an off year that season and his 2007 season gets overrated due to that game 5 as well as a very fortunate playoff run. He faced a Wizards team that was below .500 and didn't have their 2 best players in the first round. He faced a .500 Nets team that had absolutely no frontline, their big men were Mikki Moore, Jason Collins and Josh Boone, and on top of that, their best player Vince Carter(who Lebron didn't guard so you can't credit him for this) didn't play anywhere near his usual level and despite that it was a close 6 game series with Pavlovic's chase down block on Kidd in game 1 and Carter's turnover to end the game vs Snow in game 4 being huge factors. Not to mention Donyell Marshall hitting 6 threes in game 6 while Lebron had another poor shooting night.

The one good team they beat was Detroit, and they pretty much had a meltdown and beat themselves. And we can't forget Daniel Gibson's huge games 4 and 6.

Lebron's shot was broken that year, at best, he can be ranked 3rd behind Kobe and Duncan, but even that is debatable.


I go only by facts... sorry... no opinions here....

:roll:


Lets start of with Lebron vs Kobe 2007-08

LEBRON Season
30 ppg
8 rpg
7 apg
48% FG
Led the league in Triple Doubles.
Led the league in PER / EFF.
Led the league in Scoring.

KOBE Season
28 ppg
6 rpg
5 apg
46% FG

LEBRON Playoffs
28 ppg
8 rpg
8 apg
41% FG
Led the league in Triple Doubles.
Led the league in PER / EFF.
Lost to Champions Celtics 4-3.

KOBE Playoffs
30 ppg
5 rpg
5 apg
48% FG
Led the league in Scoring.
Lost to Champions Celtics 4-2.

OVERALL - LEBRON WINS.........

Kobe was better, no question in my mind. Lebron's jumper was exposed again in the playoffs vs Boston.

Kobe's all around game was phenomenal in 2008, he had no weaknesses. He regained some quickness and explosiveness, was still the most skilled player in the league, played his best defense in years, reached a new level in terms of playmaking and game management and seemed to take over at just the right times at will(check out how much better all of the role players and shooters shot that year than just about any other year of their careers).

He helped the Lakers overachieve early, kept them going when Bynum went down, played like they were almost unbeatable when he got some solid help with Gasol and then kept them going when he went down. That type of consistency, on the court dominance and leadership led LA to the best record in arguably the toughest Western Conference in NBA history.

But if that wasn't enough, he stepped up his game to another level in the playoffs and demolished Denver, Utah and San Antonio averaging 32/6/6/51 FG%/61 TS% through those 3 series.

[Doctor Rivers]

^^ pauk ownage

[Heavincent]

This.

1. MJ
2. Wade
3. West
4. Kobe

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Doctor Rivers]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Wade should be number 2

[jlauber]

Wade should be number 2

I'm not sure I would rank Wade ahead of either Kobe or West, but he has a case. It will really be interesting to see where he ranks at the end of his career.

[SuperPippen]

I'm not sure I would rank Wade ahead of either Kobe or West, but he has a case. It will really be interesting to see where he ranks at the end of his career.

IMO, he really doesn't have much of a case over either, at this point.

At his peak, was he on the level of Kobe and West or arguable even superior? Yes, but he had a short peak and he's too much trouble with injuries over the course of his career.

[macpierce]

kobe is closer to jordan than wade is to kobe :roll:

[AlphaWolf24]

Aint Nobody even see West play...:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:



"Who is the 2nd Greatest SG ever?"....EZ......it's Jordan.

[HylianNightmare]

http://i52.tinypic.com/2qcgunl.gif
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SuperPippen]

Aint Nobody even see West play...:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:



"Who is the 2nd Greatest SG ever?"....EZ......it's Jordan.

But then Kobe would have to be number 3! That's blasphemy!

[StarJordan]

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPPGQuery.html?topic=4&stat=0

Forget west, kobe ranks behind wade too..and he may drop below rick barry...

[RRR3]

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPPGQuery.html?topic=4&stat=0

Forget west, kobe ranks behind wade too..and he may drop below rick barry...
:facepalm First of all, Rick Barry was a SF. And secondly, Kobe is way past him and would have to become Brian Scalabrine to fall behind him.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

West

1961-62 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1962-63 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1963-64 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1964-65 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1965-66 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1966-67 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1967-68 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1968-69 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1969-70 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1970-71 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1971-72 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1972-73 NBA All-NBA (1st)


1968-69 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)* 1st year award was given
1969-70 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1970-71 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1971-72 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1972-73 NBA All-Defensive (1st)

Kobe

1998-99 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
1999-00 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2000-01 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)


1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)

Wade

2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)


2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)

:oldlol:

[Doctor Rivers]

West

1961-62 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1962-63 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1963-64 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1964-65 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1965-66 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1966-67 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1967-68 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1968-69 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1969-70 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1970-71 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1971-72 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1972-73 NBA All-NBA (1st)


1968-69 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)* 1st year award was given
1969-70 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1970-71 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1971-72 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1972-73 NBA All-Defensive (1st)

Kobe

1998-99 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
1999-00 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2000-01 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)


1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)

Wade

2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)


2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)

:oldlol:

fixed

[MaxFly]

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPPGQuery.html?topic=4&stat=0

Forget west, kobe ranks behind wade too..and he may drop below rick barry...

Interesting... but if we are to use scoring, wouldn't it be important to note that Logo took more shots and free throws than Bryant while also playing almost 3 more minutes a game? Context...

[Legends66NBA7]

But then Kobe would have to be number 3! That's blasphemy!

Strange this is, this is Alpha's Top 3:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Kobe

Something doesn't seem right......

[Legends66NBA7]

Interesting... but if we are to use scoring, wouldn't it be important to note that Logo took more shots and free throws than Bryant while also playing almost 3 more minutes a game? Context...

Don't forget, West played with no 3 point line in his era also.

West also shot better than Kobe.

[andgar923]

Whilst I'd go Kobe, I think it's folly to state that if you put a guy back and say he'd do so much better... without factoring in the realities you'd have to take away like advanced training, weight programs, diet et al.
Same with bringing a guy - like West - forward to this point in time. You must assume that he'd have the benefits of better training, greater awareness of what's going to improve his game, and all the benefits that current players enjoy.


F*ck outta here with this shit. This is ISH where we have no need for 'logic'.

[andgar923]

But then Kobe would have to be number 3! That's blasphemy!
:roll: :roll:

[andgar923]

Nope. Kobe in the 60's would be the same player. Just measuring them as players, Kobe is easily better.

No because he wouldn't have MJ to study and base most of his game on.

[andgar923]

VERY CLOSE. I give Kobe a slight edge based on his five rings.

Wanna know why this is kinda silly?

Because Kobe didn't perform as well in the post season and clearly didn't perform anywhere near as well in the Finals. As many of us have mentioned repeatedly, Kobe just happened to be in a better situation.

IF

And IF Kobe had performed exceptionally well, then for all means, give Kobe all the credit and high praise, but he didn't. And he actually performed bad for a player of his caliber and for the ranking he gets. People usually say the same bullshit all the time "He has 5 rings!!!" but they were more due to his situation and not because of HIS own play.

[MaxFly]

Don't forget, West played with no 3 point line in his era also.

West also shot better than Kobe.

This is true. West's era had no three point line while Bryant's era does, and since the three point shot is a lower %, yet higher value shot, that bit of context is important to note as well. On only 2 point FGs, Bryant has shot 48.2% for his career, which bests the Logo's 47.4%.

[KenneBell]

Both were the best SG's of their era, great defensive players, great shooters, and could playmake as well. Not many weaknesses if any at all at the 2 guard.

Kobe's main advantage is his versatility(he's just bigger than West and can move down to SF or play in the post) and the fact that his teams have capitalized on their talent. You could chalk it up to Shaq, Phil, the front office, not facing the Celtics or whatever but Kobe's been on 5 championship teams with comparable talent for their eras compared to 1 for West.

That counts IMO. Not to mention Kobe having an MVP and two FMVPs on winning teams. He's broken nearly all of West's Laker records as well.

West was in the top 10 and Kobe probably pushed him out in '09. They are still very close together in all-time rankings IMO.

[Legends66NBA7]

Wanna know why this is kinda silly?

Because Kobe didn't perform as well in the post season and clearly didn't perform anywhere near as well in the Finals. As many of us have mentioned repeatedly, Kobe just happened to be in a better situation.

IF

And IF Kobe had performed exceptionally well, then for all means, give Kobe all the credit and high praise, but he didn't. And he actually performed bad for a player of his caliber and for the ranking he gets. People usually say the same bullshit all the time "He has 5 rings!!!" but they were more due to his situation and not because of HIS own play.

Well finally, someone realizes why i stated both players numbers for a reason. The rings answer was predictable.

Yes, i agree, i would give Kobe a lot more credit for all of those rings Kobe had preformed exceptionally well (hell, i wouldn't have made this thread about these two at all), but really he performed good/great in 2 of 5 of those finals (2002, as the 2nd banana, and 2009, his best). 2001 and 2010 were not that bad, but not that great either. 2000, he had one memorable game and was bad the rest of the series.

[Legends66NBA7]

This is true. West's era had no three point line while Bryant's era does, and since the three point shot is a lower %, yet higher value shot, that bit of context is important to note as well. On only 2 point FGs, Bryant has shot 48.2% for his career, which bests the Logo's 47.4%.

Nice find, MaxFly. That's also Kobe's problem sometimes too. He forces too many tough shots and takes too many bad ones ad well.

Staying with this theme though, lets look @ playoffs and finals:

Playoffs:

Kobe @ 2 point %fg: 47.6%fg

West @ 2 point %fg: 46.9%fg

Kobe comes out on top there too. It's not that big of a gap though for either regular season or playoffs.

Finals:

Kobe @ 2 point %fg: 43.5%fg

West @ 2 point %fg: 45.9%fg

Bigger gap in the Finals and in favor of West.


Kobe has averaged 4 3's PAT, in the Finals. Crazy.

[SuperPippen]

This is true. West's era had no three point line while Bryant's era does, and since the three point shot is a lower %, yet higher value shot, that bit of context is important to note as well. On only 2 point FGs, Bryant has shot 48.2% for his career, which bests the Logo's 47.4%.

This is slightly misleading, as we can pretty much rest assured that West took a significant number of shots from 3-point land in his career, but obviously those were counted as 2 point FG's because of the lack of the 3-point line.

[The_Yearning]

You gotta be kidding me... Jerry West? We need BULLS back on this forum.

Even J-Rich in his prime would own Jerry West...

[MaxFly]

Well finally, someone realizes why i stated both players numbers for a reason. The rings answer was predictable.

Yes, i agree, i would give Kobe a lot more credit for all of those rings Kobe had preformed exceptionally well (hell, i wouldn't have made this thread about these two at all), but really he performed good/great in 2 of 5 of those finals (2002, as the 2nd banana, and 2009, his best). 2001 and 2010 were not that bad, but not that great either. 2000, he had one memorable game and was bad the rest of the series.

One of the more interesting shifts I've noticed over the last several years is the increased emphasis people have placed on NBA finals stats while discounting the play of players in the prior 3 rounds.

For instance, I'll hear people note that Bryant's play in 2001 wasn't that great as they point to his finals numbers, seemingly ignoring that he put up 35/9/4 against Sacramento and 33/7/7 against San Antonio that post season. 2010 is an even more recent example as people point to his play in game 7 of the finals while ignoring his play against Utah, Phoenix and even against the Celts in the first six games of our series. If we are to judge players on just their play in the finals and push aside their play over the entirety of the playoffs, why bother with a playoff bracket and instead not just focus on a championship series for the best two teams in the league? While the finals is the final component of a championship, we should perhaps remember that it's not the only component.

[Jacks3]

No because he wouldn't have MJ to study and base most of his game on.
You're a ****ing moron.

[SuperPippen]

You gotta be kidding me... Jerry West? We need BULLS back on this forum.

Even J-Rich in his prime would own Jerry West...

J-Rich in his prime could probably go toe-to-toe with West as he was in the 60's, if that's what you're thinking. Against a modern-day West, on the other hand, would be an entirely different story.

[Legends66NBA7]

This is slightly misleading, as we can pretty much rest assured that West took a significant number of shots from 3-point land in his career, but obviously those were counted as 2 point FG's because of the lack of the 3-point line.

And here is a perfect example of what if the 3 point line existed back then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSzwdu9zCnk

Kincks would win in Game 3 in overtime. If that was a 3, no overtime needed.

[Jacks3]

lol @ andgar. Kobe didn't play well? Not the reason they won?

2001 playoffs:
29.4/7.3/6.1/2/56% TS
WCF:33/7/7/2/59% TS
WCSF:35/9/5/2/58% TS

2002 playoffs:
27/6/5/2/1/52% TS
Finals: 27/6/6/2/60% TS

2009 Playoffs:
30/6/5/2/56.4% TS
4 40+ point games
19 30+ point games
Finals: 32.4/7.2/5.6/2.1/1/54% TS/29 PER
WCF: 34/6/6/2/60% TS

2010 Playoffs:
29/6/6/2/57% TS
16 30+ point games
Finals: 29/8/5/2/53% TS/26+ PER
WCF: 34/8/7/2/61% TS
WCSF:32/6/4/2/61% TS

****ing moron.

[jlauber]

One of the more interesting shifts I've noticed over the last several years is the increased emphasis people have placed on NBA finals stats while discounting the play of players in the prior 3 rounds.

For instance, I'll hear people note that Bryant's play in 2001 wasn't that great as they point to his finals numbers, seemingly ignoring that he put up 35/9/4 against Sacramento and 33/7/7 against San Antonio that post season. 2010 is an even more recent example as people point to his play in game 7 of the finals while ignoring his play against Utah, Phoenix and even against the Celts in the first six games of our series. If we are to judge players on just their play in the finals and push aside their play over the entirety of the playoffs, why bother with a playoff bracket and instead not just focus on a championship series for the best two teams in the league? While the finals is the final component of a championship, we should perhaps remember that it's not the only component.

Great post.

BTW, I still give Kobe CREDIT for his play in game seven of the '10 Finals, despite his 6-24 shooting. He made 11 FTs, he grabbed 15 rebounds, and was hustling all over the court.

[Jacks3]

Yes, i agree, i would give Kobe a lot more credit for all of those rings Kobe had preformed exceptionally well (hell, i wouldn't have made this thread about these two at all), .
****ing idiot. :roll:

[Jacks3]

lol @ andgar. Kobe didn't play well? Not the reason they won?

2001 playoffs:
29.4/7.3/6.1/2/56% TS
WCF:33/7/7/2/59% TS
WCSF:35/9/5/2/58% TS

2002 playoffs:
27/6/5/2/1/52% TS
Finals: 27/6/6/2/60% TS

2009 Playoffs:
30/6/5/2/56.4% TS
4 40+ point games
19 30+ point games
Finals: 32.4/7.2/5.6/2.1/1/54% TS/29 PER
WCF: 34/6/6/2/60% TS

2010 Playoffs:
29/6/6/2/57% TS
16 30+ point games
Finals: 29/8/5/2/53% TS/26+ PER
WCF: 34/8/7/2/61% TS
WCSF:32/6/4/2/61% TS

****ing moron.
2010 Finals though 6 games: 30/6/5/2/56%

[andgar923]

You're a ****ing moron.

Am I lying?

[catch24]

2010 Finals though 6 games: 30/6/5/2/56%

Wow, that ONE game really screwed up his shooting %'s. By all measures, he had a GREAT Finals prior to G7...and from an all-around standpoint, played a pretty well-rounded Finals in 2010.

[andgar923]

2010 Finals though 6 games: 30/6/5/2/56%

He had teammates that performed better than he did. And if we go back and take a look at the game tapes or even summaries, he was usually bailed out by his teammates.

Yes, he had his moments, but he was underwhelming given the hype and praise he usually received.

We can argue this all day, but you still won't budge, even moderate Kobe fans will agree that his Finals performances are weak and his playoff performances are overshadowed by many players.

Kobe in the playoffs = good
Kobe in the Finals = underwhelming

[Legends66NBA7]

One of the more interesting shifts I've noticed over the last several years is the increased emphasis people have placed on NBA finals stats while discounting the play of players in the prior 3 rounds.

For instance, I'll hear people note that Bryant's play in 2001 wasn't that great as they point to his finals numbers, seemingly ignoring that he put up 35/9/4 against Sacramento and 33/7/7 against San Antonio that post season. 2010 is an even more recent example as people point to his play in game 7 of the finals while ignoring his play against Utah, Phoenix and even against the Celts in the first six games of our series. If we are to judge players on just their play in the finals and push aside their play over the entirety of the playoffs, why bother with a playoff bracket and instead not just focus on a championship series for the best two teams in the league? While the finals is the final component of a championship, we should perhaps remember that it's not the only component.

Oh well, i was just explaning his Finals performaces, not his playoff runs as a whole.

Indeed, you are correct in your analysis, Kobe as an overall runs in both 2001 and 2010 was pretty great. He did play great in those series against the Kings and Spurs in 2001. He did play great in thos series against the Jazz and Suns.

However, people will more than likely put more emphasis on the Finals because hey, it's the Finals. It's for all the marbles, right ? It's when every fan, average fans, and even non-fans would watch the NBA at it's most. And behold, Kobe has been in 7 of them. People would expect him to play at a high level, because hey, it's Kobe. He's a great player, right ? He's proven he can play at high level, he gets hyped up, lives up to some of his hype, etc... So you have to place the stakes higher in the Finals. What happened in the previous rounds, some what becomes irrelevant, to certain people.

Perfect example is LeBron James this year. He was having a damn good run in the 2011 playoffs. Closed out against the Bulls and Celtics. Played great defense. He was playing clutch basketball. At the same time in those Bulls series, Wade was playing horrible vs the Bulls. But then came the Finals and what happened ? Many people feel now that LeBron is a universal choker, very passive, will never win a ring, etc... most even won't look back it his previous series, because they feel that he was "riding Wade's coattails" all along, when it wasn't even true.

But you are correct. People should focus on the whole playoffs, i agree. Not just cut to the Finals. In terms of me talking about Kobe in the Finals, then yeah, read what i stated before.

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE=andgar923]He had teammates that performed better than he did. And if we go back and take a look at the game tapes or even summaries, he was usually bailed out by his teammates.
:wtf:

He was by far the the best player on both teams.




We can argue this all day, but you still won't budge, even moderate Kobe fans will agree that his Finals performances are weak and his playoff performances are overshadowed by many players.
Overshadowed by many players?
:oldlol:
2001 playoffs:
29.4/7.3/6.1/2/56% TS
WCF:33/7/7/2/59% TS
WCSF:35/9/5/2/58% TS

2002 playoffs:
27/6/5/2/1/52% TS
Finals: 27/6/6/2/60% TS

2009 Playoffs:
30/6/5/2/56.4% TS
4 40+ point games
19 30+ point games
Finals: 32.4/7.2/5.6/2.1/1/54% TS/29 PER
WCF: 34/6/6/2/60% TS

2010 Playoffs:
29/6/6/2/57% TS
16 30+ point games
Finals: 29/8/5/2/53% TS/26+ PER
WCF: 34/8/7/2/61% TS
WCSF:32/6/4/2/61% TS




Kobe in the playoffs = good
No, he's been phenomenal. You're a ****ing retard.

[andgar923]

[QUOTE]
:wtf:

He was by far the the best player on both teams.




Overshadowed by many players?
:oldlol:
2001 playoffs:
29.4/7.3/6.1/2/56% TS
WCF:33/7/7/2/59% TS
WCSF:35/9/5/2/58% TS

2002 playoffs:
27/6/5/2/1/52% TS
Finals: 27/6/6/2/60% TS

2009 Playoffs:
30/6/5/2/56.4% TS
4 40+ point games
19 30+ point games
Finals: 32.4/7.2/5.6/2.1/1/54% TS/29 PER
WCF: 34/6/6/2/60% TS

2010 Playoffs:
29/6/6/2/57% TS
16 30+ point games
Finals: 29/8/5/2/53% TS/26+ PER
WCF: 34/8/7/2/61% TS
WCSF:32/6/4/2/61% TS




No, he's been phenomenal. You're a ****ing retard.

*yawnnn*

[Legends66NBA7]

Wow, that ONE game really screwed up his shooting %'s. By all measures, he had a GREAT Finals prior to G7...and from an all-around standpoint, played a pretty well-rounded Finals in 2010.

Check out his 3 point shooting in each Finals:

2000: 2-10 = 20%
2001: 3-9 = 33.3%
2002: 6-11 = 54.5%
2004: 4-23 = 17.4%
2008: 9-28 = 32.1%
2009: 9-25 = 36%
2010: 15-47 = 31.9%

Overall: 48/153 = 31.4%3pt

[catch24]

Check out his 3 point shooting in each Finals:

2000: 2-10 = 20%
2001: 3-9 = 33.3%
2002: 6-11 = 54.5%
2004: 4-23 = 17.4%
2008: 9-28 = 32.1%
2009: 9-25 = 36%
2010: 15-47 = 31.9%

Overall: 48/153 = 31.4%3pt

Definitely took a dip. Some of those %'s aren't all that bad though, given the volume of course. I've always found it facinating that MJ, despite being an inferior 3PT shooter to Kobe (well...according to most people on this forum), managed an equal shooting % during the postseason and a better % in the Finals.

[Jacks3]

2001 playoffs:
29.4/7.3/6.1/2/56% TS
WCF:33/7/7/2/59% TS
WCSF:35/9/5/2/58% TS

2002 playoffs:
27/6/5/2/1/52% TS
Finals: 27/6/6/2/60% TS

2009 Playoffs:
30/6/5/2/56.4% TS
4 40+ point games
19 30+ point games
Finals: 32.4/7.2/5.6/2.1/1/54% TS/29 PER
WCF: 34/6/6/2/60% TS

2010 Playoffs:
29/6/6/2/57% TS
16 30+ point games
Finals: 29/8/5/2/53% TS/26+ PER
WCF: 34/8/7/2/61% TS
WCSF:32/6/4/2/61% TS

Some of his games in 2001 Playoffs (16 games):
28/7/6/2
29/5/6/2
27/9/5/1/1
36/7/5/2/1
48/16/3/2/1
45/10/4/1/1
28/7/6/2/1
36/9/8/1/1
24/11/3/1
31/8/6/2
32/6/4/2
19/10/9/1/1
26/12/6/2/1


Some of his games in 2010 playoffs:
39/6/2/1
32/7/4/2
31/4/4/2
30/8/5/3
35/7/4/1
32/5/4/2
40/5/5/1
36/11/9/2
38/10/7/2
30/11/9/2/1
37/6/3/2/
30/7/6/2
29/7/4/3/2
33/6/3/3/
38/5/4/2
26/11/4/2/1

2009 Playoffs:
27/9/6/2
38/6/2/3
31/4/4/2/1
32/8/4/2/1
40/6/4/1
33/6/4/2/3
40/6/5/2
43/6/5/2/1
34/7/5/2/1
35/10/6/2/1
40/8/8/2/1
29/8/5/2/2
31/8/4/2/
32/8/7/2/1
30/6/6/2/2

Moron. :facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

Definitely took a dip. Some of those %'s aren't all that bad though, given the volume of course. I've always found it facinating that MJ, despite being an inferior 3PT shooter to Kobe (well...according to most people on this forum), managed an equal shooting % during the postseason and a better % in the Finals.

Yes, i would agree it's not all bad, but it's too much 3's for Kobe. His average also dips in the Finals too.

As far as Jordan goes, well it's Jordan. He steps up in the playoffs and finals really in almost every facet of the game, it's down right scary. Though i wouldn't say he's Kobe's equal @ shooting 3's, i wouldn't say it's that far apart. When Jordan did attempts 200+ 3 point shots, he shot a very respectable % (although some of those season was with the realignment of the 3 point arc). I believe it's all about the quantitly of shots, definitely. But they also have to be good looks too, not bad or forced shots.

And as far as this thread goes, since there were no 3's during West career, it would be interesting to see how he would adjust. I think being regarded as one of the best shooters of his generation (and of all-time) he would probably have been a good 3 point shooter as well.

[Jacks3]

2001 playoffs:
29.4/7.3/6.1/2/56% TS
WCF:33/7/7/2/59% TS
WCSF:35/9/5/2/58% TS

2002 playoffs:
27/6/5/2/1/52% TS
Finals: 27/6/6/2/60% TS

2009 Playoffs:
30/6/5/2/56.4% TS
4 40+ point games
19 30+ point games
Finals: 32.4/7.2/5.6/2.1/1/54% TS/29 PER
WCF: 34/6/6/2/60% TS

2010 Playoffs:
29/6/6/2/57% TS
16 30+ point games
Finals: 29/8/5/2/53% TS/26+ PER
WCF: 34/8/7/2/61% TS
WCSF:32/6/4/2/61% TS

Some of his games in 2001 Playoffs (16 games):
28/7/6/2
29/5/6/2
27/9/5/1/1
36/7/5/2/1
48/16/3/2/1
45/10/4/1/1
28/7/6/2/1
36/9/8/1/1
24/11/3/1
31/8/6/2
32/6/4/2
19/10/9/1/1
26/12/6/2/1


Some of his games in 2010 playoffs:
39/6/2/1
32/7/4/2
31/4/4/2
30/8/5/3
35/7/4/1
32/5/4/2
40/5/5/1
36/11/9/2
38/10/7/2
30/11/9/2/1
37/6/3/2/
30/7/6/2
29/7/4/3/2
33/6/3/3/
38/5/4/2
26/11/4/2/1

2009 Playoffs:
27/9/6/2
38/6/2/3
31/4/4/2/1
32/8/4/2/1
40/6/4/1
33/6/4/2/3
40/6/5/2
43/6/5/2/1
34/7/5/2/1
35/10/6/2/1
40/8/8/2/1
29/8/5/2/2
31/8/4/2/
32/8/7/2/1
30/6/6/2/2

Moron. :facepalm
And he did this while playing on average better defenses than any star in history: http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/29/who-played-the-hardest-defenses-adjusting-playoff-stats-by-competition-part-i/

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[oolalaa]

VERY CLOSE. I give Kobe a slight edge based on his five rings.

you mean 4 rings?

that 1st one doesn't count.

[jlauber]

you mean 4 rings?

that 1st one doesn't count.

Well, they ALL count. If Kobe didn't deserve a ring in '00, then I suppose Kareem didn't deserve one in '88, either.

Even West's lone ring would be debateable, as he shot .376 in the entire '72 playoffs, and .325 in the Finals.

[Legends66NBA7]

Well, they ALL count. If Kobe didn't deserve a ring in '00, then I suppose Kareem didn't deserve one in '88, either.

Even West's lone ring would be debateable, as he shot .376 in the entire '72 playoffs, and .325 in the Finals.

It should be said correctly that the Los Angeles Lakers basketball team won those "rings".

You are right though, they should count for every player. The leader or leaders/best player would deserve and rightfully so get more of the credit.

[Jacks3]

Even West's lone ring would be debateable, as he shot .376 in the entire '72 playoffs, and .325 in the Finals.
:wtf:

[Dragonyeuw]

Only fair way to measure this is judging how good each was to their respective era. Players that are literally 30 year apart are almost impossible to compare, and frankly it's an unfair comparison to West. Kobe Bryant, the one you've seen the past 15 years, would be a completely different player from what you've seen today. His game would be more in line with the great perimeter players from that era. Similarly with West, his game would be modernized if he played today. It's just like if you try to compare a guy 30 years from now to Kobe. The argument is just as pointless.

[DirtySanchez]

Only fair way to measure this is judging how good each was to their respective era. Players that are literally 30 year apart are almost impossible to compare, and frankly it's an unfair comparison to West. Kobe Bryant, the one you've seen the past 15 years, would be a completely different player from what you've seen today. His game would be more in line with the great perimeter players from that era. Similarly with West, his game would be modernized if he played today. It's just like if you try to compare a guy 30 years from now to Kobe. The argument is just as pointless.


THIS

It is too hard to debate plus the fact that most of us where not born when West was in his prime lets face it. We just could see old tapes and stats but that's only half of the story. Plain and simple though if there was no Jerry West there would be no Kobe etc. etc. Always got to respect the ones that come before you.

I can only judge from the time I started watching the NBA....1985 till now...since then my top SG's are...

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Iverson
4. Wade
5. Drexler

[Replay32]

Kobe Bean Bryant

[ZaaaaaH]

THIS

It is too hard to debate plus the fact that most of us where not born when West was in his prime lets face it. We just could see old tapes and stats but that's only half of the story. Plain and simple though if there was no Jerry West there would be no Kobe etc. etc. Always got to respect the ones that come before you.

I can only judge from the time I started watching the NBA....1985 till now...since then my top SG's are...

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Iverson
4. Wade
5. Drexler


It is What it is ~

[bizil]

In GOAT terms or peak value terms, Kobe is the second greatest SG of all time. For so long it was Jordan and West reigning supreme at 1 and 2. But Kobe is so great u can't deny him anymore. And D Wade is coming hard as well for West. On a GOAT list, I still feel Wade isn't there yet. But peak value wise it's damn close but I would lean to Wade. But from a skillset perspective, West was the original perfect SG. And one thing West still has over nearly every shooting guard EVER is his shooting ability. And West was just as deadly a slasher or damn close. His combo of awesome shooting and slashing is still to this day probably the greatest of all time. West's athletic ability was also underrated. He played like a guy 6'4 to 6'5 instead of a 6'2 guard. The main difference between West and the guys like MJ, Kobe, Wade, and Drexler is the size factor. Those guys are freakish athletes that are 6'4 to 6'7 and great all around players to go with it.

[Doranku]

He had teammates that performed better than he did. And if we go back and take a look at the game tapes or even summaries, he was usually bailed out by his teammates.

Yes, he had his moments, but he was underwhelming given the hype and praise he usually received.

We can argue this all day, but you still won't budge, even moderate Kobe fans will agree that his Finals performances are weak and his playoff performances are overshadowed by many players.

Kobe in the playoffs = good
Kobe in the Finals = underwhelming

This is such bullshit. People were legitimately talking about Kobe receiving Finals MVP if the Lakers lost after Game 5. He then played a great game 6, and then of course the infamous "6-24" game for you haters.

And LOL @ West's numbers in the Finals during the ring that he one. Even Kobe's worst finals in 2000 was better than that.

[Legends66NBA7]

This is such bullshit. People were legitimately talking about Kobe receiving Finals MVP if the Lakers lost after Game 5. He then played a great game 6, and then of course the infamous "6-24" game for you haters.

And LOL @ West's numbers in the Finals during the ring that he one. Even Kobe's worst finals in 2000 was better than that.

Yeah that series wasn't particular good at all for West and he even admitted that he played poorly. Kobe's really isn't that better though.

However, West also has 3 or arguably even 4 Finals series better than Kobe's best series in 2009.

Just because his teams lost the majority of the time, doesn't mean he was playing like garbage the whole 9 times he went there.

And really, just look at the rest of the numbers. West stepped up more in the playoffs and finals than Kobe did.

[Jacks3]

Not really. Adjusting for pace, Kobe's numbers are better. Put him in the 60's and he'd put up 40+/5+/5+ every playoffs.

[with malice]

Not really. Adjusting for pace, Kobe's numbers are better. Put him in the 60's and he'd put up 40+/5+/5+ every playoffs.
I thought we agreed that this was a pointless/fruitless stance to take?

[Legends66NBA7]

I thought we agreed that this was a pointless/fruitless stance to take?

Don't bother, bro. He won't listen.

[Jacks3]

Nope. He'd be the same player. You guys are reaching. Even if you don't give him the same advantages, he's still the better player. That's just how it is.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I thought we agreed that this was a pointless/fruitless stance to take?

Its clearly a more logical stance to take that completely ignoring the pace of the league and the quality of defense being played.

[Legends66NBA7]

Its clearly a more logical stance to take that completely ignoring the pace of the league and the quality of defense being played.

No it's not.

What does pace factor have to do with anything if Kobe can still jack up 35.4ppg on 27.2 shots, 31.6 on 22.8 shots, 30.0 on 23.5 shots in a "slower pace" ? West averaged 31.0 on 22.4 shots, 31.3 on 21.9 shots, 31.2 on 22.6 shots, etc... in a "faster pace".

Efficiency is the only thing that matters for quailty offense.

Defense ? It was surely a much more physical league back then. It had a hall of famer centers in the league and they were some great defensive guards.

Kobe being born during that era (and West being born during Kobe's year) is a more logical theory since time travel doesn't exist, we can't just put him there with his same exact skills. Obviously, he would do better if time travel was possible. But it's not.

[AlphaWolf24]

One of the more interesting shifts I've noticed over the last several years is the increased emphasis people have placed on NBA finals stats while discounting the play of players in the prior 3 rounds.

For instance, I'll hear people note that Bryant's play in 2001 wasn't that great as they point to his finals numbers, seemingly ignoring that he put up 35/9/4 against Sacramento and 33/7/7 against San Antonio that post season. 2010 is an even more recent example as people point to his play in game 7 of the finals while ignoring his play against Utah, Phoenix and even against the Celts in the first six games of our series. If we are to judge players on just their play in the finals and push aside their play over the entirety of the playoffs, why bother with a playoff bracket and instead not just focus on a championship series for the best two teams in the league? While the finals is the final component of a championship, we should perhaps remember that it's not the only component.


and the funny part is...the WCFinals were actually the real NBA Finals during the early part of the 2000's...the East was horrible....

01' sixers vs the 01' Spurs..:roll: :roll: :roll: ....

[Jacks3]

No it's not.



Yes, West having 20-30 more possessions to work with means nothing. :oldlol:

West going up against a bunch of white stiffs while Kobe plays in the GOAT era for wings means nothing.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Legends66NBA7]

Yes

Kobe can still jack up 35.4ppg on 27.2 shots, 31.6 on 22.8 shots, 30.0 on 23.5 shots in a "slower pace" ? West averaged 31.0 on 22.4 shots, 31.3 on 21.9 shots, 31.2 on 22.6 shots, etc... in a "faster pace". What does pace factor have to do with anything ? Efficiency is the only thing that matters for quailty offense.

Nice of you to pick one part of my statement and not read the rest. I would expect that from a child.

White stiffs ? So your a racist now ? Walt Fraizer, Jerry Sloan, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Norm Van Lier, etc... were all stiffs and white. Go find some other B.S. theory. Jerry West raised his game against his peers.

Goat era for wings ? That's your opinion.

Since we can't bring one player from now to back then it's all about seeing how they performed against their peers. And that advantage goes to West. Not to say Kobe hasn't but West has outperformed much more of his competition and has done it in the finals.

But i expect more B.S., like pace factor, to come into play....

[RRR3]

Sam jones was black.

[Legends66NBA7]

Sam jones was black.

I was aware of that. Trying to make a point, he think that's all these dudes were "white" and "stiffs" when it's simply not true.

[bizil]

Both were the best SG's of their era, great defensive players, great shooters, and could playmake as well. Not many weaknesses if any at all at the 2 guard.

Kobe's main advantage is his versatility(he's just bigger than West and can move down to SF or play in the post) and the fact that his teams have capitalized on their talent. You could chalk it up to Shaq, Phil, the front office, not facing the Celtics or whatever but Kobe's been on 5 championship teams with comparable talent for their eras compared to 1 for West.

That counts IMO. Not to mention Kobe having an MVP and two FMVPs on winning teams. He's broken nearly all of West's Laker records as well.

West was in the top 10 and Kobe probably pushed him out in '09. They are still very close together in all-time rankings IMO.

Excellent post! The main key is that Kobe can play PG-SG-SF. So he's more versatile due to size. Even though West is as versatile as a 6'2 player can be. It comes down to size with players so skilled. Pound for pound, guys like West, Iverson, and Isiah are as skilled as any player.

West for the longest time was a top 10 GOAT. But guys like Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan made their way on that GOAT list. But ultimately, it was Kobe who moved past West on that GOAT SG list. So he was probably the most responsible. I would love to see a prime West as a PG today. He could make it as a smaller SG and do well. But could you pair him with a normal size PG in the vein of Thomas-Dumars? Joe D. had an uncanny ability to defend bigger SG's very well. West was a very long and athletic 6'2 or 6'3. But at point, I feel he would be awesome!

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No it's not.

What does pace factor have to do with anything if Kobe can still jack up 35.4ppg on 27.2 shots, 31.6 on 22.8 shots, 30.0 on 23.5 shots in a "slower pace" ? West averaged 31.0 on 22.4 shots, 31.3 on 21.9 shots, 31.2 on 22.6 shots, etc... in a "faster pace".

Efficiency is the only thing that matters for quailty offense.

Defense ? It was surely a much more physical league back then. It had a hall of famer centers in the league and they were some great defensive guards.

Kobe being born during that era (and West being born during Kobe's year) is a more logical theory since time travel doesn't exist, we can't just put him there with his same exact skills. Obviously, he would do better if time travel was possible. But it's not.

If efficiency matters on offense clearly it matters for defense too...

The PPG/ per 100 possessions (AKA efficiency) ratings of the defenses Kobe faced in the Finals

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8

Which defenses did West face that were as successful at limiting efficiency throughout the season as the defenses Kobe faced in the Finals?

[Miserio]

this is a tough one. I think I will have to go with the guy who can dribble with his left hand
Made my day :lol

It's stupid to compare, both played in different eras, both dominated, both are great.

[with malice]

Made my day :lol

It's stupid to compare, both played in different eras, both dominated, both are great.
Agreed.
I think the main point of contention is that some people want to make direct comparisons, without considering everything involved. As I said earlier - that particular pepsi test is flawed in concept.

[Jacks3]

lol @ legend. Dude honestly thinks West getting to play with 20-30 more possessions per game doesn't matter and that his comp on the wing is similar to what Bryant sees. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[La Frescobaldi]

equal training won't turn a JJ Reddick into Vince Carter.

Kobe is blessed with athletic talents leagues above what West ever had and it makes no difference what kind of training they might have.





Oh you arguing your point with a logo? are you a fckn idiot? How about watching Jerry West footage and observing that he his weak with his left hand

Not much footage available of West, but watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8oGUyREHcQ

1:15 left handed blowing by Bill Russell

There's no question skills have changed over the years, but there's also no question today's players would have terrific problems adjusting to the 60s and early 70s because they've never played in a league that blew the whistle on skills violations. If your hand went anywhere on the side of the ball, there was a whistle.

Palming and travelling would be a huge obstacle for the showy drives and cross-overs we all love today - because none of that was allowed back then.

Kobe more athletic than Jerry West? I really have doubts about that. I'm not even certain about vertical. West could get his hand above the block although his arm length it is true was the same as Chamberlain's.

[Round Mound]

West shot very high for a SG during the 60s and 70s.

As a Pure Shooter, Passer and Rebounder I`d Take West...The Dude was 6`2 but Very Strong and had enough Athletic Capacity to succeed (Fundamentals > Athletic Capacity)

Kobe was the Better Defender, Slasher, Dunker and On Fire Player.

Its close very close. Closer than most people think

Also West was also the Leader in PER for Two Seasons. Probably the Best Player for those seasons regarding his time ofcourse. Top 2 In PER for 1 and Top 3 In PER for 5 Seasons...regarding his time. Also Top PER Leader for 3 Play-Off Runs.

That is more Dominant according to his Time than Kobe.

Kobe was Top 3 Once. He was Never the Best Player in the Game.

[PJR]

Wade.

[Hank]

Wade.

THIS

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe was Top 3 Once. He was Never the Best Player in the Game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoqbgOZrEg

[Round Mound]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoqbgOZrEg

Don`t need to watch videos. Statistics show he wasn`t the most dominant and efficient player. PER shows it clearly.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Don`t need to watch videos. Statistics show he wasn`t the most dominant and efficient player. PER shows it clearly.
:oldlol: 32Dayz2.0

[Legends66NBA7]

:oldlol: 32Dayz2.0

Round Mound had like 2 other accounts before. Doesn't work that way. More like 32 Dayz is Round Mound 2.0 (or 4.0). :oldlol:

Didn't need to use advanced stats for this case, didn't really mind who picked who either.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Round Mound had like 2 other accounts before. Doesn't work that way. More like 32 Dayz is Round Mound 2.0 (or 4.0). :oldlol:

Didn't need to use advanced stats for this case, didn't really mind who picked who either.
edit: Oh now I know what you mean lol yeah

[Deuce Bigalow]

What do you think Legends?, it seems to me that you're taking West

[Round Mound]

Why are all you Kobe Suckers going insane and getting pissed at what i mentioned? :rolleyes:

Its quite simple. Kobe was NOT as Dominant compared to West in HIS Time. Am I Wrong? No I am Not.

West Shot Better FG% than Kobe in the 60s and 70s when the game was faster. That says alot. He also had a Better Assist Average and Rebounding.

Defensively i might give the edge to Kobe as a Man to Man Defender but West had alot Steals and more maybe West was Better Team Defender

So NO Kobe was NOT AS DOMINANT as West was in THEIR TIMES :confusedshrug:

[bizil]

Kobe in the 2nd GOAT SG of all time. He has built the resume to pass by the Logo. I would still rank West number three, but Wade before its all said and done could get that three spot. In terms of peak value, I feel Kobe is the 2nd greatest SG as well. West deserves big props for being the prototype SG who could do it all on the court at the highest levels. Guys like Gervin, Monroe, Thompson, and Maravich redefined the SG spoti in different ways. But NONE of them had the all around skillset of West. MJ was really the SG to be as great in many facets as West. And MJ was a freak athlete at 6'6. But West was the template for so many years at SG. And he proved he could be an elite PG as well later in his career. I think West still has a great claim to be the best player ever under 6'4. IN GOAT terms and peak value wise. It would come down to West, Isiah, and Iverson in my opinion for that.

[A.R.T]

can you imagine if it was Kobe who had the 1-8 finals record? :oldlol:

[D-Wade316]

can you imagine if it was Kobe who had the 1-8 finals record? :oldlol:
Hypothetical.

[32Dayz]

What do you think Legends?, it seems to me that you're taking West

No one takes anything you say seriously reta**, stop posting here.

:facepalm

[32Dayz]

can you imagine if it was Kobe who had the 1-8 finals record? :oldlol:

Can you imagine if Kobe didn't have Prime Shaq for 8 years?

He'd be considered a worse version of TMac with better longevity.

:oldlol:

[A.R.T]

Can you imagine if Kobe didn't have Prime Shaq for 8 years?

He'd be considered a worse version of TMac with better longevity.

:oldlol:

i'm really embarrassed that a retard like yourself responded to me :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[32Dayz]

Jerry West is better then Kobe Bryant.

Scores on higher volume in the playoffs while also being far more effecient and an incomparably better passer.
He is also a better leader who doesnt insult and demean his fellow teammates and end up damaging the teams he plays for on a consistent basis.
He is just much better playoff performer.

J. West is also one of the GOAT Finalz performers while Kobe is one of the worst ever for a GOAT player.

Sorry but other then coatriding great players to rings Kobe has nothing over West.

Kobe right now is the 3rd best SG for now until Wade will inevitably surpass him later in his Career.

[RazorBaLade]

Don`t need to watch videos. Statistics show he wasn`t the most dominant and efficient player. PER shows it clearly.

doesnt per also show kevin love had one of the best seasons ever a few years ago?

u cant just pick which players the stats give an accurate representation of are correct and ignore the rest.. points dont lie, and winning doesnt lie. watching games doesnt lie either; theres something that kobe has and even someone like rose may potentially have where they can win while shooting 10-30 that just doesnt translate to stats, and for some reason even when certain other players have great teams around them they cant get that win when they are bad. call it luck thats fine, luck has to do with it too.

actual points in context, fg in context, winning in context, watching the games.. That is more important than any advanced "end all" metric, it'd be like trying to create a formula for the stock market or the universe. NOT. HAPPENINg. Per is garbage.

[32Dayz]

doesnt per also show kevin love had one of the best seasons ever a few years ago?


No it didnt.

Kevin Love Peaked at 24 PER which is far from spectacular and is understandable based on his overall production rebound totals and efficiency from 3pt and ftline.

However anyone who watches him play or examines his numbers more indepthly will see he is not a spectacular individual 0ffensive player and obviously he is not a good defender which PER cannot show u.

[RazorBaLade]

Jerry West is better then Kobe Bryant.

Scores on higher volume in the playoffs while also being far more effecient and an incomparably better passer.
He is also a better leader who doesnt insult and demean his fellow teammates and end up damaging the teams he plays for on a consistent basis.
He is just much better playoff performer.

J. West is also one of the GOAT Finalz performers while Kobe is one of the worst ever for a GOAT player.

Sorry but other then coatriding great players to rings Kobe has nothing over West.

Kobe right now is the 3rd best SG for now until Wade will inevitably surpass him later in his Career.

How can u talk about FG% comparison when 3s didnt exist? even if he didn't shoot any closer than the line, just the fact that kobe has scored 3 pts on 1 shot compared to 2 from any jerry shot makes the difference in efficiency literally insurmountable.

[RazorBaLade]

No it didnt.

Kevin Love Peaked at 24 PER which is far from spectacular and is understandable based on his overall production rebound totals and efficiency from 3pt and ftline.

However anyone who watches him play or examines his numbers more indepthly will see he is not a spectacular individual 0ffensive player and obviously he is not a good defender which PER cannot show u.

I think it was not so much greatest season ever or anything but he was just above players like Pau and KG and stuff that he just clearly wasn't better than.

thats fine if u agree that u need to watch ppl play lol this other round mound guy doesnt, we have no argument, its just that guy.. "why watch the game when u have per" ...

[32Dayz]

How can u talk about FG% comparison when 3s didnt exist? even if he didn't shoot any closer than the line, just the fact that kobe has scored 3 pts on 1 shot compared to 2 from any jerry shot makes the difference in efficiency literally insurmountable.

Jerry West was more effecient, the difference is FG% was huge.

Sorry but even giving Kobe the boost that eFG% would provide West would still have a sizable edge in effeciency. (imo)

Then you take into the account his all around game, better scoring ability(arguable I guess), better passing ability and leadership, better playoff performances and the fact that he is a GOAT Finalz performer while Kobe is one of the worst and its clear who the better player is.

[32Dayz]

Not trying to sound biased and I dont mind people who think Kobe is better
(I feel its debatable) but I personally give the edge to West.

[RazorBaLade]

Jerry West was more effecient, the difference is FG% was huge.

Sorry but even giving Kobe the boost that eFG% would provide West would still have a sizable edge in effeciency. (imo)

Then you take into the account his all around game, better scoring ability(arguable I guess), better passing ability and leadership, better playoff performances and the fact that he is a GOAT Finalz performer while Kobe is one of the worst and its clear who the better player is.

Rounded (for the sake of arguing) the difference in their FG% is 1 percent in reg season, and 2 in playoffs. Thats not huge at all. BUT, its COMPLETELY irrelevant because West didn't shoot 3s.

Let me ask u this question.

Whats the difference between this two as far as the scoreboard is concerned?

Shooting 50% from 2 for 1000 shots, thus making 500 for a total of 1000 points.

Shooting 30% from 3 for 1000 shots, thus making 333 shots for a total of 999 points.

Thats a TWENTY point % difference, for only 1 less point. But if u looked at only the %, the 2 clearly wins... Yet even if the 3 pt shooter shot 35% then he would score like 100 pts more than the guy who shot twos.

Kobe's FG being dragged down because of the 3 doesn't mean he's less efficient.

[32Dayz]

Rounded (for the sake of arguing) the difference in their FG% is 1 percent in reg season, and 2 in playoffs. Thats not huge at all. BUT, its COMPLETELY irrelevant because West didn't shoot 3s.

Let me ask u this question.

Whats the difference between this two as far as the scoreboard is concerned?

Shooting 50% from 2 for 1000 shots, thus making 500 for a total of 1000 points.

Shooting 30% from 3 for 1000 shots, thus making 333 shots for a total of 999 points.

Thats a TWENTY point % difference, for only 1 less point. But if u looked at only the %, the 2 clearly wins... Yet even if the 3 pt shooter shot 35% then he would score like 100 pts more than the guy who shot twos.

Kobe's FG being dragged down because of the 3 doesn't mean he's less efficient.

Those who have watched West play or have been his teammate say he regularly took shots that would be considered 3Pointers in todays game and even when he wasnt he was pretty close to the line.

Even if you think they were close efficiency wise (which is reasonable) I would still consider West the better player.

[RazorBaLade]

it doesnt matter if he took what is considered 3 pters... kobe stats wise is more efficient. it didnt go down as a 3 so it cant be viewed the same as one. theres no factual evidence that he actually took a lot of 3s, let alone as many as kobe at equal percentages. if there actually is a compilation of that then fine, but i really doubt there is lol.

[RazorBaLade]

Not trying to sound biased and I dont mind people who think Kobe is better
(I feel its debatable) but I personally give the edge to West.

i like your posts. you are clearly not a fan of kobe but u seem at least open to the idea of giving him props.

i dont think its just u, a lot of people here just dont seem to understand the math behind fg... they just see the % and start beating their chests, but its wrong. if a player shoots considerably more threes than someone but has only a few point difference in %, then its the guy who shoots more 3s thats more efficient.. but people dont think about it mathematically and just look at the base number. just the point im tryin to get across.

[32Dayz]

i like your posts. you are clearly not a fan of kobe but u seem at least open to the idea of giving him props.

i dont think its just u, a lot of people here just dont seem to understand the math behind fg... they just see the % and start beating their chests, but its wrong. if a player shoots considerably more threes than someone but has only a few point difference in %, then its the guy who shoots more 3s thats more efficient.. but people dont think about it mathematically and just look at the base number.

Yea I agree.

However wouldnt a player who takes more shots but makes more 3's still have ended up missing more shots then someone who scored on similar effeciency (when using eFG%) but took less 3's and shot a higher % from the field?

So isnt it worse to shoot an equal percantage but get to that % by taking more 3's?

Hmm.. actually I think it still ends up being equal.. o well. lol

[RazorBaLade]

Yea I agree.

However wouldnt a player who takes more shots but makes more 3's still have ended up missing more shots then someone who scored on similar effeciency (when using eFG%) but took less 3's and shot a higher % from the field?

So isnt it worse to shoot an equal percantage but get to that % by taking more 3's?

why does missed shots matter in this case? like the earlier example, 333/1000 vs 500/1000.. Yes theres less missed shots in the 2nd case, but its the same points on the same amount of shots. I don't know why it would matter if one missed more.

but in either case, Kobes eFG appears to be 49% in the regular season unless I did the math wrong. so its better than wests FG%; i imagine it would be around even in the playoffs or slightly in kobes favor.

[32Dayz]

why does missed shots matter in this case? like the earlier example, 333/1000 vs 500/1000.. Yes theres less missed shots in the 2nd case, but its the same points on the same amount of shots. I don't know why it would matter if one missed more.

but in either case, Kobes eFG appears to be 49% in the regular season unless I did the math wrong. so its better than wests FG%; i imagine it would be around even in the playoffs or slightly in kobes favor.

eFG% doesn't translate like that to FG% (just letting you know)

I agree its the same amount of points produced on the same amount of shots but wouldn't it also produce more turnovers since (you agree) the player who shoots the 333 3Pointers ends up missing 167 or so more shots?

[RazorBaLade]

eFG% doesn't translate like that to FG% (just letting you know)

I agree its the same amount of points produced on the same amount of shots but wouldn't it also produce more turnovers since (you agree) the player who shoots the 333 3Pointers ends up missing 167 or so more shots?

wat? i did the whole formula thing "(FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA." for kobe i just said FG for west since he doesnt shoot 3 pointers so its just FG/FGA for him. What'd I mess up?

Yes, while he may be more efficient shooting wise because of 3s, it means more turnovers. So we dive deeper into the stats, lets look at the turnovers stat. Kobe has 3 a game. Theres nothing for west, so we don't know. Just wild estimate, he'd need I have no idea how many turnovers over 3 to make up for the ~1400 more shots kobe has missed. Probably not a lot, maybe like 3.3 per game. But that is getting into who makes more turnovers, not shooting efficiency, right?

We can go into turnovers, but we really can't cuz there are no stats for west. it is damn hard to compare people so far apart in eras.

[32Dayz]

wat? i did the whole formula thing "(FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA." for kobe i just said FG for west since he doesnt shoot 3 pointers so its just FG/FGA for him. What'd I mess up?

Yes, while he may be more efficient shooting wise because of 3s, it means more turnovers. So we dive deeper into the stats, lets look at the turnovers stat. Kobe has 3 a game. Theres nothing for west, so we don't know. Just wild estimate, he'd need I have no idea how many turnovers over 3 to make up for the ~1400 more shots kobe has missed. Probably not a lot, maybe like 3.3 per game. But that is getting into who makes more turnovers, not shooting efficiency, right?

We can go into turnovers, but we really can't cuz there are no stats for west. it is damn hard to compare people so far apart in eras.

I disagree but its cool.

From what I've seen and comparing the stats West appears to me to be more efficient.

I'd say Kobe's : Average FG% would be.
RS : 45%
Playoffs : 43.5%

West :
RS : 47-48%
Playoffs : 46-47%

Thats a huge difference especially when comparing Playoff efficiency.

I know West had range and I believe he would shoot a similar amount of 3Pointers had he played after the 3pt Line was put into place.

[Odinn]

I'd say Kobe is the 2nd SG ever coz of his accomplishments. But Jerry West has a solid case too.

Bryant has accomplishments.
West one of the top 10 playoff performers ever. Even top 5. One of the top 5 finals performers ever, also. It's hard to say the same thing for Kobe, especially finals performers part.
Individually; almost equal. I gave slight edge to Kobe.

[32Dayz]

I'd say Kobe is the 2nd SG ever coz of his accomplishments. But Jerry West has a solid case too.

Bryant has accomplishments.
West one of the top 10 playoff performers ever. Even top 5. One of the top 5 finals performers ever, also. It's hard to say the same thing for Kobe, especially finals performers part.
Individually; almost equal. I gave slight edge to Kobe.

Good post.

For someone who puts more emphasis on "team accomplishments" I'd probably agree with you and put Kobe 2nd.

However for someone like me who puts far more weight on individual performances I rank West 2nd.

[bizil]

If anything, Kobe gets the edge because of resume. When u factor GOAT, u include team accolades, solo accolades, talent, longevity being great, and numbers. As good as MJ was in 1987, u couldn't put him over West on a GOAT list. West held down the GOAT SG spot I would say for a minimum of 20 years before MJ got over him. However peak value wise, MJ was in my book already the premier shooting guard of all time in the late 80's. But he had to build the resume to beat West for GOAT. Peak value and GOAT are two different things. Peak value TMac is arguably at top 5 SG of all time. David Thompson I feel would be in the top 7-10 SG's peak value wise. But GOAT wise, neither guy is in the top 10 GOAT SG's of all time.

And let's face it, we all think about players and how they would match up hypothetically. So imagine West vs. Kobe with both at their best. And let's assume West was capable of the same output in the 2000s as it was in the 60's. I would still give Kobe the edge because Kobe is 6'6 or 6'7 with an awesome all around game. West at 6'2 was very athletic as well for that size. West I feel could even guard bigger guards than him better than most his size. But at the end of the day give me Kobe over West. In today's game, West might even be a PG. Comparing him to other PG's of today, West could very well be the most complete skillset wise. He would be able to score, defend, and shoot the rock as good as any PG. In terms of passing the pill, he would maybe a hair behind a CP3, DWill, and Nash. West would be a bigger, more athletic, and more complete version of Mark Price.

[Kiddlovesnets]

I'd give it to Jerry West.

[Legends66NBA7]

What do you think Legends?, it seems to me that you're taking West

Yes, I did go with Jerry West.

There isn't problem with me if people take Kobe, but people acting like there isn't a case because he played a long time ago is lying to themselves.

Both have their negatives, West teams didn't win at a good rate at all (1-8 in the finals), but it wasn't because West played horrible (ironically, West's worst finals came when they won the title in 1972). Kobe offcourse hasn't always had the greatest finals, infact he has played very subpar.

There's a lot of variables, but West is my pick (he was more consistent as individual player, playoffs averages clearly show this), but I think Kobe will surpass (if he hasn't already) career wise if he can still maintain a high level of basketball.

[DirtySanchez]

I'd give it to Jerry West.

Why?

And how old are you?

Have you ever seen him play back in the 60's and 70's?

Do you know much about the in's and out's of the league then?

Really?

Because I bet you do not know anything...I bet all the Kobe nay sayers who would pick West really know West's game. You can say you read up...bring up stats etc. but at the end of the day really...you don't know.

I know a couple of folks who posted or use to post on these boards that can give a fair comparison....but most of you...nope.

[DirtySanchez]

Yes, I did go with Jerry West.

There isn't problem with me if people take Kobe, but people acting like there isn't a case because he played a long time ago is lying to themselves.

Both have their negatives, West teams didn't win at a good rate at all (1-8 in the finals), but it wasn't because West played horrible (ironically, West's worst finals came when they won the title in 1972). Kobe offcourse hasn't always had the greatest finals, infact he has played very subpar.

There's a lot of variables, but West is my pick (he was more consistent as individual player, playoffs averages clearly show this), but I think Kobe will surpass (if he hasn't already) career wise if he can still maintain a high level of basketball.


Really...how old are you?

If you guys are under the age of 40...and been falling ball your whole life. You can not give a fair assement on West comapred to Kobe.

[32Dayz]

Really...how old are you?

If you guys are under the age of 40...and been falling ball your whole life. You can not give a fair assement on West comapred to Kobe.

There is actually a good amount of Video available of West and he was a pretty popular player so you can find a great deal of information on him and his game by searching around alittle.

It's not as good as being able to watch him for years but its enough that you can grasp his abilities physical and otherwise pretty well.

By your Logic Wilt should never be ranked ahead of any Modern Centers or PF's.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

To people that argue if you'd put Kobe back in West's era he'd be much better - I disagree. Kobe wouldn't have had MJ to model his complete game after back then.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Why?

And how old are you?

Have you ever seen him play back in the 60's and 70's?

Do you know much about the in's and out's of the league then?

Really?

Because I bet you do not know anything...I bet all the Kobe nay sayers who would pick West really know West's game. You can say you read up...bring up stats etc. but at the end of the day really...you don't know.

I know a couple of folks who posted or use to post on these boards that can give a fair comparison....but most of you...nope.

Stop asking people 'how old are you' when they are apparently more mature and experienced than who you are. Jerry West is top 10 while Kobe is not, this should answer your question clearly.

[Legends66NBA7]

To people that argue if you'd put Kobe back in West's era he'd be much better - I disagree. Kobe wouldn't have had MJ to model his complete game after back then.


As with malice already said, you can't just expect to see stats and results like those if you speculate on what a modern player would do in an older era. For honest, fair speculation, you have to make believe that that player was born at around the same time as players of the older era.

Kobe isn't "very easily" the better player. Is he more athletic? Yes. Does he play with a modern skill set (advanced dribbling, shooting, etc.) in comparison to West? Of course. Does he have the huge advantage of playing in the modern era of basketball? Obviously.

For the record, I believe Kobe is superior. I rank Kobe as the second greatest SG of all time, and West 3rd. I'd rather have Kobe. But it's a lot closer than most people think.

You can't just insert 2006 Kobe into the old school era and expect to play with the same skillet, highflying mindset (flashy dunks, lay-ups, etc.) and medical advantages of today's era. The game just hadn't evolved to that point yet.

A fair basis for speculation about what Kobe would've done in the 60's is, I think, Elgin Baylor. Kobe and Elgin were the same height, very similar athletically (Elgin actually looks even more muscular than Kobe in a lot of old school vids), and Elgin was a lifetime Laker, as well, (for whatever that's worth).

Obviously, Kobe would still be a fantastic, All-NBA player, because greatness is greatness regardless of whatever era it's from. But you can't expect him to be tossing out ungodly numbers like that.


Some great and well thought out comments guys.

And unfortunately, some predicatable ones.

In terms of people saying put West in today's NBA and Kobe back in the 60's... I think that the true question you should be asking is:

What if West was born in 1978 and grew up during that era ? How good would he be with the footage of former players before him at his access ? And yes, with malice brought this up, the benefits of better training, greater awareness of what's going to improve his game, and all the benefits that current players. Not to mention the advanced training, diets, etc..

What if Kobe was born in 1939 and grew up during that era ? How good would he be with limited to no footage of former player and current players ? Less training, less awareness of what's going to improve his games, and trying to make a name for himself in a developing league ?

That's my interpretation of the "put him back in this era" statement.


Basically all that for the hypothetical statements. It works both ways.

[Legends66NBA7]

Really...how old are you?

If you guys are under the age of 40...and been falling ball your whole life. You can not give a fair assement on West comapred to Kobe.

Get the hell out of my face with that "how old are you" garbage. How old are you? 5? Must be for such a pompous statement.

Let's say I never even watched Michael Jordan at all (I did). So, I can't give a fair assessment about Kobe to Jordan, right?

You can pick whoever you want and I don't have a problem with it. But don't tell people here we can't look back at footage, game play available, track records, and can't formulate our own opinions.

And yes, I have gotten enough information from West and also gotten a fair comparison on the two, thanks for you're concern.

[Doctor Rivers]

How about Jerry West vs. Wade?

[32Dayz]

How about Jerry West vs. Wade?

Too soon but I personally think he has the best chance to surpass West.

Like West he is proving himself to be a very good Playoff and Finals performer.

His play over the next few years will really determine his legacy and how he is ranked in a GOAT sense I think.

[Legends66NBA7]

How about Jerry West vs. Wade?

Need Wade to have a couple more seasons played. He has a good case as well; let's see if he can keep up his play in the playoffs and any more future finals.

Some more accolades are needed too.

[32Dayz]

Need Wade to have a couple more seasons played. He has a good case as well; let's see if he can keep up his play in the playoffs and any more future finals.

Some more accolades are needed too.

Curious, which accolades in particular do you think he needs more of?

[Legends66NBA7]

Curious, which accolades in particular do you think he needs more of?

-MVP or multiple (doubt he will get one though, playing along side LeBron. Never had one and I will also look at MVP voting too).
-Another Finals MVP and strong performances (another would certinally make a strong arguement).
-All-NBA First Team (he has too get more of them, IMO).

[Legends66NBA7]

Man, I love these cowards who just neg you and say stupid crap like "kobe gtfo" and don't even put their name or want to debate it.

Yeah, I'm a "butt hurt Kobe hater" when I don't even know the guy and I apperciate his game for longest time... You stans are funny.

Stay senstive.

[DirtySanchez]

Get the hell out of my face with that "how old are you" garbage. How old are you? 5? Must be for such a pompous statement.

Let's say I never even watched Michael Jordan at all (I did). So, I can't give a fair assessment about Kobe to Jordan, right?

You can pick whoever you want and I don't have a problem with it. But don't tell people here we can't look back at footage, game play available, track records, and can't formulate our own opinions.

And yes, I have gotten enough information from West and also gotten a fair comparison on the two, thanks for you're concern.


No you do not.

LMAO

All you people live on just whatever video highlights (because not all NBA games where taped back then) and stats you can twist to support your opinions. But LIVING and being in to the NBA back then...knowing the league the polayers the scenrios...the way the game was played..etc etc. You do NOT...DO NOT have that info. You can not make a fair comparison what so ever because you did not follow the NBA back then.

That the problem with you kids today. You think you know more then you really do...because you can google this bit of info etc.or find an old highlight reel.

All you KIDS are talking out of your a$$'s thinking you can make a fair comparison. YOU CAN'T!

Everyone in here so far has made the comparison based on this....if you like Kobe Bryant as a player or not.

THAT'S IT!

Don;t give me some BS stat...don't give me a highlight of West doing this Kobe doing that. Everything is based on if you like Kobe or not.

And you know what...non of you kids will admit that. NONE.

[Legends66NBA7]

No you do not.

LMAO

All you people live on just whatever video highlights (because not all NBA games where taped back then) and stats you can twist to support your opinions. But LIVING and being in to the NBA back then...knowing the league the polayers the scenrios...the way the game was played..etc etc. You do NOT...DO NOT have that info. You can not make a fair comparison what so ever because you did not follow the NBA back then.

That the problem with you kids today. You think you know more then you really do...because you can google this bit of info etc.or find an old highlight reel.

All you KIDS are talking out of your a$$'s thinking you can make a fair comparison. YOU CAN'T!

Everyone in here so far has made the comparison based on this....if you like Kobe Bryant as a player or not.

THAT'S IT!

Don;t give me some BS stat...don't give me a highlight of West doing this Kobe doing that. Everything is based on if you like Kobe or not.

And you know what...non of you kids will admit that. NONE.

Get the hell out of this thread.

You're the only kid here, kid. What? You think Kobe can't be compared to someone who obviously has a case?

All a kid like you does is live vicariously through a basketball player and defending his every move. There is nothing to twist anything you clown, you can pick whoever you want, was that not clear to you.

That's the problem with you kids, assuming that people here have an agenda against Kobe? Like really, you talk like you followed Kobe to every gym practice, every training, and every single second of his life. You talk straight from you're ass because you don't like the comparison because people brought it up. You are pathetic.

And what is this garbage? Whether you like Kobe or not? Look at you sounding like some sensitive female. You don't want to admit that there statistical comparison or accolade comparison, but it's over popularity? Who the hell are you to tell us who like who? I like Kobe as a basketball player very much, again thank for you're concern.

And you know a kid like you will never admit that this is close or in favour of West because you are biased and a clown. Go home kid. Keep living like a female, living vicariously through Kobe. I know you won't admit it.

[DirtySanchez]

Get the hell out of this thread.

You're the only kid here, kid. What? You think Kobe can't be compared to someone who obviously has a case?.

You can compare anyone free country. But your opinions at the end of the day hold no weight why? Because if you did not live and watch that era you really do not know jack sh*t about West.

And YES most of the people on here making these statements against or FOR Kobe is BASED if they like him or not. So get the f*ck out of here telling me you got knowledge and are an unbiased person. If you did not live and watch West's era there is no waaaaay you can make a accurate comparison to Bryant using just stats and video's no way.

Go ahead give you opinion but it don't mean sh*t because at the end of the day you really do not know what you are talking about and why....because you where not ALIVE when West played.

[DirtySanchez]

If a kid come on these boards who is 14 and does a comparison of say Jordan to LeBron...or Magic to Deron Willimas etc. I got to tell him to shut the f*ck up. You did not grow up watching Jordan and Magic....pro Jordan or Magic or against them...the kid holds no weight.

So all of you making judgements on this thread...if you did not follow that era when West played. Be humble about your judgement (I always state I can't make judgements on Wilt or Russel or Cousey etc) or shut the f*ck up. Just calling it out bluntly how I see it.

And if I hurt your feelings like I did this prick kid Legend....:confusedshrug:

Problem with you kids today....act like you know more then the folks who already walked the paths you are on.

[PTB Fan]

I personally got Jerry West. He was better offensively overall in more categories such as shooting, efficiency and overall too. (Scoring is very arguable, i got the logo there).

Defensively, he was better than Bryant. He played better on ball defense and was just as good on ball defense for a longer period. He was also more complete player, better performer in the clutch (just check his playoff and finals stats) and more reliable.

Give me West.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Can you imagine if Kobe didn't have Prime Shaq for 8 years?

He'd be considered a worse version of TMac with better longevity.

:oldlol:

Tell me what happened in 2009-2010 :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not trying to sound biased and I dont mind people who think Kobe is better
(I feel its debatable) but I personally give the edge to West.
Acting like anyone gives a ****

[Deuce Bigalow]

I personally got Jerry West. He was better offensively overall in more categories such as shooting, efficiency and overall too. (Scoring is very arguable, i got the logo there).

Defensively, he was better than Bryant. He played better on ball defense and was just as good on ball defense for a longer period. He was also more complete player, better performer in the clutch (just check his playoff and finals stats) and more reliable.

Give me West.
did you watch him play?

[NumberSix]

Neither, but....... Kobe > West

[32Dayz]

did you watch him play?

Why are you posting here?
No one cares what you have to say.

:roll:


There is enough video and information available about Jerry West for people to have a good feel and understanding of what type of player he was physically and skillwise/BBIQ.

Have you ever seen Wilt play?
But you'll still probably Rank him in your Top 5.

People like you and that other idiot only use these sort of arguments when it suits your obvious agendas... so pathetic and you wonder why no one takes you seriously. :facepalm

Have you watched Kareem play? But you can still judge him from the information and video available of him and rank him accordingly.

West > Kobe
Better Scorer
Better Passer/Leader
Better Playoff Performer
Wayyyy better Finalz performer.

[Lucifer]

Only on insidehoops would this be a debate :roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Why are you posting here?
No one cares what you have to say.

:roll:


There is enough video and information avaliable about Jerry West for people to have a good feel and understanding of what type of player he was physically and skillwise/BBIQ.

Have you ever seen Wilt play?
But you'll still probably Rank him in your Top 5.

People like you and that other idiot only use these sort of arguments when it suits your obvious agendas... so pathetic and you wonder why no one takes you seriously. :facepalm

Have you watched Kareem play? But you can still judge him from the information and video available of him and rank him accordingly.

West > Kobe
:roll:

[Legends66NBA7]

:roll:

Well I would hope it's not hilarious to think that notion.

People need to stop laughing about it. I've seen people rank Kobe over West and vice versa and the 2 would only be separate by 1 number (Kobe 10. West 11. or West 10. Kobe 11.)

Take into consideration the playoff and finals numbers and West does have Kobe beat there considerably. This was already acknowledged in the "Kobe Top 5 GOAT scorer" thread.

[ballsohard247]

If a kid come on these boards who is 14 and does a comparison of say Jordan to LeBron...or Magic to Deron Willimas etc. I got to tell him to shut the f*ck up. You did not grow up watching Jordan and Magic....pro Jordan or Magic or against them...the kid holds no weight.

So all of you making judgements on this thread...if you did not follow that era when West played. Be humble about your judgement (I always state I can't make judgements on Wilt or Russel or Cousey etc) or shut the f*ck up. Just calling it out bluntly how I see it.

And if I hurt your feelings like I did this prick kid Legend....:confusedshrug:

Problem with you kids today....act like you know more then the folks who already walked the paths you are on.
So if a player played in an era before your time you are not allowed to comment on him or compare him to others? How does that work? I cannot sit here and say I know how Jerry West impacted the game because I didn't personally watch him but I do know his stats, accolades and can watch games of his from his prime. If you cannot compare players from different eras how is MJ considered the best ever? Should we discount Bill Russell as an alltime great because most of us didn't watch him play? If you don't want to read threads about people comparing basketball players then don't click on them. I'm sure you'll say I'm fourteen because there is no way that someone over 21 who is intelligent would argue with you right? Since you apparently think you are never wrong.

Edit: By the way, you misspelled Cousy and Russell. I'm somehow not surprised, kids today can't spell.

[32Dayz]

It's all about Agendas...

These Stans dont care about players like Wilt and Kareem who the majority Rank ahead of Kobe by a number of spots because they dont threaten him.

With West (like you said Legends) they are ranked very close together so even though a very knowledgeable NBA fan might rank West ahead of Kobe they will do their best to degrade him as much as possible in order to make Kobe look better since its close enough that they think it wont make them look really stupid. (even though it does)

:applause:

[c3z4r]

I honestly don't see any argument that could be made in favor of west over kobe. All this bs what if scenarios have no relevance whatsoever.

I would really want to see some point form arguments for west over kobe from whoever really believes west is better than kobe.

[32Dayz]

I would really want to see some point form arguments for west over kobe from whoever really believes west is better than kobe.

I believe a number of people have made good arguments for West.
Here are a few easy ones.

Better Scorer
Better in the Clutch
Better Passer/Leader
Better Playoff Performer
Wayyyy better Finalz performer

:cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well I would hope it's not hilarious to think that notion.

People need to stop laughing about it. I've seen people rank Kobe over West and vice versa and the 2 would only be separate by 1 number (Kobe 10. West 11. or West 10. Kobe 11.)

Take into consideration the playoff and finals numbers and West does have Kobe beat there considerably. This was already acknowledged in the "Kobe Top 5 GOAT scorer" thread.

I'm not laughing about that, I'm just laughing @ 32dayz

[Legends66NBA7]

I'm not laughing about that, I'm just laughing @ 32dayz

Oh okay.

[32Dayz]

I'm not laughing about that, I'm just Trolling @ 32dayz

Fixed. :facepalm

Those points you said "you weren't laughing at" were the exact same points I was making.

Way to make a fool of yourself as usual. :lol

[c3z4r]

I believe a number of people have made good arguments for West.
Here are a few easy ones.

Better Scorer
Better in the Clutch
Better Passer/Leader
Better Playoff Performer
Wayyyy better Finalz performer

:cheers:

Okay i disagree with better scorer, in the same amount of seasons, 14 seasons to be more exact, kobe scored more points than west, even though in his first 3 seasons he has averaged 7.6, 15.3 and 19.9 ppg. 25192 for west and 25790 for kobe. I took 14 seasons since west only played 14 seasons and i excluded 2078 points that kobe scored last season.

I disagree with the clutch statement, i mean there's a reason kobe was the go to guy in the first 3-peat and has i think the most game winners in nba history, or at least from 1980 when they started compiling the data.

I would say in the playoffs i would give kobe the nod again. In 14 seasons he has more points, more assists and more rebounds than jerry, although I think jerry would have more steals and kobe more blocks that's just speculation.

So really, the only thing where jerry west clearly beats kobe in is in the finals, where jerry absolutely was a monster and kobe was, well not that great. If you guys really believe that the better finals performer decides who the better player than that is simply stupid imo. Let's proclaim jason terry better than lebron if we're at it then.

[PTB Fan]

did you watch him play?

About who're we talking about?

Kobe will surpass West once when it's all said and done.

[pauk]

West

[32Dayz]

Okay i disagree with better scorer, in the same amount of seasons, 14 seasons to be more exact, kobe scored more points than west, even though in his first 3 seasons he has averaged 7.6, 15.3 and 19.9 ppg. 25192 for west and 25790 for kobe. I took 14 seasons since west only played 14 seasons and i excluded 2078 points that kobe scored last season.

I disagree with the clutch statement, i mean there's a reason kobe was the go to guy in the first 3-peat and has i think the most game winners in nba history, or at least from 1980 when they started compiling the data.


So you judge players based on Career Totals?
That is ridiculous... sorry
Kobe has barely surpassed West in most major category's despite being #4 in Playoff Games Played and West being #30.

Again this seems like a biased opinion from someone with an Agenda.

Karl Malone has scored far more points then Kobe has over his Career and I am pretty sure no one thinks he is a better scorer then Kobe.

Using Averages over pretty much any reasonable time span West has a significant edge in Scoring and Passing.

Also the reason why Kobe has the most GWinners is because he attempts the most.
Here are some stats about Kobe in the Clutch below.
Pretty sure over the past few years (in the playoffs) both Wade and Lebron have actually done better in terms of combined GWinners + GWinning Assists.

Although he has certainly had his moments as a Clutch player I certainly dont consider him one of the most Clutch players ever just "above average" too many times has he tried to be Clutch or bail out his team and failed only to hurt them instead you cant be one of the greatest Clutch players only once in awhile it just doesn't work that way it needs to be consistent.


Mr. Clutch (Kobe Bean Bryant)
30% on GWinners over his Career (League Average)
37-97 .360% in game 7's
38-108 .352% in title winning games
41% in 37 finals games
66-163 .400% to win finals mvp...lowest fg% for any Finals MVP

@The Bolded Part
Shaq was almost always the go to scorer for LA during the first 3Peat unless he was in foul trouble or shooting his FT's especially poorly.
He closed out the most games, series and scored the most 4th quarter points over the 3Peat but... I guess you wouldn't know that for whatever reason. (Proof Below)


Points scored in the 4th Quarter from 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 388
Kobe - 351

Series in which a player was the "Main Closer" 2000-2002 (Playoffs)
Shaq - 3 Series (00 POR, 00 IND, 02 SAC)
Kobe - 1 Series (02 SAS)

[Deuce Bigalow]

West
shocking

[pauk]

shocking

its close.... but i rather have West... more efficient.. better playmaker... and was much better in playoffs.. west had also some ridicilous finals performances

[knightfall88]

its close.... but i rather have West... more efficient.. better playmaker... and was much better in playoffs.. west had also some ridicilous finals performances

whose better? Lebron or West

[upside24]

This is a tough one because I didn't get to watch West in the 60's but I'd take Kobe based on what I have seen.

[32Dayz]

its close.... but i rather have West... more efficient.. better playmaker... and was much better in playoffs.. west had also some ridicilous finals performances

Smart opinion, I feel the same way.

[Deuce Bigalow]

whose better? Lebron or West
Lebron is the 2nd best of alltime, didn't you know
#2 in PER, only Jordan is better

[pauk]

whose better? Lebron or West

Lebron ofcourse... ?

Lebron is a much better playoff performer and season performer... much more productive, dominant than West was

but West is a better season & playoff performer than Kobe and was that dominant aswell.... its much closer than Lebron vs West... obviously West had a better career... but i am talking about them as PLAYERS

Kobe may have an accomplished career... but as a player there were MANY who were better...

But Lebron? Only the likes of Jordan, Oscar, Wilt were more productive/dominant/impactful than Lebron...........

[c3z4r]

So you judge players based on Career Totals?
That is ridiculous... sorry
Kobe has barely surpassed West in most major category's despite being #4 in Playoff Games Played and West being #30.


Of course i do, if we're to use averages then remove's kobe's first 4 seasons and his ppg would be close to 30, close to jordan, do you find that more reasonable cuz i personally find it ridiculous which is why i use total numbers over the same timespan. It's like that travesty when t-mac was top 5 or 3 don't remember exactly in ppg in the playoffs. Judging by his averages he would be one of the all time greats but we both know that's not true. I guess you prefer west and i prefer kobe and i doubt anything will change our minds.

[32Dayz]

Of course i do, if we're to use averages then remove's kobe's first 4 seasons and his ppg would be close to 30, close to jordan, do you find that more reasonable cuz i personally find it ridiculous which is why i use total numbers over the same timespan. It's like that travesty when t-mac was top 5 or 3 don't remember exactly in ppg in the playoffs. Judging by his averages he would be one of the all time greats but we both know that's not true. I guess you prefer west and i prefer kobe and i doubt anything will change our minds.

I dont mind if you prefer Kobe.
Its not unreasonable to think he is better.

Just letting you know that when I compare their PPG in the playoffs I do it over a certain number of years (1, 3, 5, 7+ best) to make it fair.

I understand its unfair to use Rookie Seasons
(If that player didn't get heavy minutes) etc...

Even doing it this way West still clearly has an edge in Volume + Efficiency.

:cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

"The greatest Laker player we've ever seen in terms of talent and in terms of determination. I've never seen one like him. I have great admiration for (Kareem) Abdul-Jabbar, Elgin Baylor, Magic Johnson. But we've never seen a player with his talent in a Laker uniform."

"He’s the greatest Laker player that we have ever seen.”

- Jerry West on Kobe Bryant

[Odinn]

Lebron is a much better playoff performer and season performer... much more productive, dominant than West was
:roll: :roll: :roll:

If LeBron was/is in the same class with Jerry West as a playoff(finals) performer, the Heat would sweep the Mavs last year.:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

If LeBron was/is in the same class with Jerry West as a playoff(finals) performer, the Heat would sweep the Mavs last year.:oldlol:
Bbbut but but but he's #2 in Playoff PER

[32Dayz]

Jerry West specifically and Magic and multiple high profile legends have called Shaq the best player they have ever seen (Kobe has also and called him the MDE 2) and most of these ATGreats have said the same thing (not just about Shaq but other players too)

They are always saying stuff like that about multiple living legends so those "quotes" are literally meaningless.

If you need to rely on that for you argument then you know you've lost.

[Deuce Bigalow]

someone just negged me saying: "Your an idiot" :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Is that a poke at me?

I didn't neg you (nor can I).
I guess that proves you're not the only idiot here

[PTB Fan]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]"The greatest Laker player we've ever seen in terms of talent and in terms of determination. I've never seen one like him. I have great admiration for (Kareem) Abdul-Jabbar, Elgin Baylor, Magic Johnson. But we've never seen a player with his talent in a Laker uniform."

"He

[Juges8932]

You really have to judge each of these guys relative to their own eras. Trying to "imagine" one in the other's time period is so badly flawed- it's all speculation and you aren't dealing with the facts of each player. At the end of the day, we have no clue how either would perform in the other's era.

Kobe would lose the benefit from all of the medical advancements that are realized today. For a recent example, look at the new treatment he went to Germany to get that he says has done wonders for his knees and may allow him to play even better than he did last year. Not bad for a guy who is 33-years old. Kobe has been pretty damn durable throughout his career considering he starting at 18 and has had so many long-ass postseasons, but he has still had some significant injuries that he may not have bounced back from the way he did if he played back in West's era. So he may have lost out on his MVP award, trips to the Finals for Finals MVPs, All-NBA, All-NBA D, etc that he has achieved. Another big thing about Kobe is how he is a "Student of the game" in that he is constantly looking at film and tape. He has molded his game after those before him (It's completely obvious in his play and he even states it himself). MJ, Oscar, etc have all played a part in making Kobe, Kobe. Would he be great back then? Absolutely. Why? Because of his work ethic and insatiable need to be great. That wouldn't go away, IMO. However, the way he might have played the game would be completely different.

And by duality, West would be benefiting from all of the things that Kobe has now. I will not bother going into details since I'm sure they've been covered in the thread by others and it is fairly obvious.

I see West never won an MVP award. Why? Was he just constantly overshadowed by Wilt's statistical dominance and Russell's team dominance and overall leadership? I just don't see why he hasn't won one if he is as great as advertised. How was the MVP given out in the 60's compared to today? Did team success have as much to do with it as it does today? Was he ever the best player in the league? These are things that go in favor of Kobe, IMO. He has won an MVP and arguably robbed of others (same with the likes of Shaq and Wade) and certainly been the best player in the league, IMO.

West was a regular in the Finals, yet only won one championship? I know that team accomplishments are not the end-all, be-all of a player's career in terms of qualifying a player's worth, but this is a serious knock on West's resume, IMO. He is the only guy to win the MVP from the losing team, so that has to count for something, but still, it makes me curious as to why his teams consistently underachieved. Even taking Kobe's first three titles out of consideration, he won two as the best player and leader of the team. His leadership was great throughout the Kobe-Gasol era Lakers and he showed a LOT of maturity and the ability to be the guy they needed him to be. So unless somebody can explain West's constant failure in the Finals to help his team get the ship, this has to weigh heavily in Kobe's favor.

How was West's defense compared to Kobe? A regular on the all-NBA D teams is Kobe. His defense isn't nearly as consistent as it was earlier in his career, but when the Lakers need somebody to get locked up or defended well, Kobe gets it done.

I know West's nickname is "Mr.Clutch" so I'm going to assume that clutch play down the stretch is a wash, unless somebody can offer a reason as to why West is more clutch? And this is purely going off of reputation from articles and the limited footage of his "clutchness" like that half-court buzzer-beater that is constantly shown, lol. However, with the lack of championships, I am kind of skeptical as to how clutch he can really be.

Statistically, it looks like it is a wash. Unless somebody has actually seen lots of game footage of West by some chance, I just don't even see how you can even really make a true analysis between these two. Stats certainly aren't everything and the context of those stats should be taken into account.

Even comparing these players within their respective eras requires some insight into the game at those times and the identity of the league at that time (lots of run and gun offense, more defensive minded, slower-paced, etc). Weren't there a lot more possessions/game back in the 1960's compared with today?

So given the info I was given, I'd have to go with Kobe via more ability to achieve championships. At the end of the day, that's why they're playing basketball, to win championships. With the individual accolades seemingly a wash (However, even that is debatable in favor of Kobe, IMO. With him having more scoring titles, an MVP, and more finals MVPs), you have to look at team accolades.

It doesn't really seem like you can go wrong with either choice, but if I was an owner and I looked at what each of them was going to bring to my organization, how can you not go with Kobe?

[DirtySanchez]

So if a player played in an era before your time you are not allowed to comment on him or compare him to others? How does that work? I cannot sit here and say I know how Jerry West impacted the game because I didn't personally watch him but I do know his stats, accolades and can watch games of his from his prime. If you cannot compare players from different eras how is MJ considered the best ever? Should we discount Bill Russell as an alltime great because most of us didn't watch him play? If you don't want to read threads about people comparing basketball players then don't click on them. I'm sure you'll say I'm fourteen because there is no way that someone over 21 who is intelligent would argue with you right? Since you apparently think you are never wrong.



That is the problem....judging a player soely on stats and game highlights does not make a person knowledgable about that players career. If you do not understand that you are a lost cause. And that...right there is the biggest problem with kids such as yourself today.

To answer your other question...yes on bill Russell and the big o etc. Etc. I can not compare them to players now you know why? It was before my time! And I never do that because I know better.

The problem with posters on ish...and I been posting here for years...is they twist stats and their opinions bases on their biased agendas. I read through this thread and it is much of the same. So all you kids saying west have a coke and a smile and shut the **** up.

[La Frescobaldi]

You really have to judge each of these guys relative to their own eras. Trying to "imagine" one in the other's time period is so badly flawed- it's all speculation and you aren't dealing with the facts of each player. At the end of the day, we have no clue how either would perform in the other's era.

Kobe would lose the benefit from all of the medical advancements that are realized today. For a recent example, look at the new treatment he went to Germany to get that he says has done wonders for his knees and may allow him to play even better than he did last year. Not bad for a guy who is 33-years old. Kobe has been pretty damn durable throughout his career considering he starting at 18 and has had so many long-ass postseasons, but he has still had some significant injuries that he may not have bounced back from the way he did if he played back in West's era. So he may have lost out on his MVP award, trips to the Finals for Finals MVPs, All-NBA, All-NBA D, etc that he has achieved. Another big thing about Kobe is how he is a "Student of the game" in that he is constantly looking at film and tape. He has molded his game after those before him (It's completely obvious in his play and he even states it himself). MJ, Oscar, etc have all played a part in making Kobe, Kobe. Would he be great back then? Absolutely. Why? Because of his work ethic and insatiable need to be great. That wouldn't go away, IMO. However, the way he might have played the game would be completely different.

And by duality, West would be benefiting from all of the things that Kobe has now. I will not bother going into details since I'm sure they've been covered in the thread by others and it is fairly obvious.

I see West never won an MVP award. Why? Was he just constantly overshadowed by Wilt's statistical dominance and Russell's team dominance and overall leadership? I just don't see why he hasn't won one if he is as great as advertised. How was the MVP given out in the 60's compared to today? Did team success have as much to do with it as it does today? Was he ever the best player in the league? These are things that go in favor of Kobe, IMO. He has won an MVP and arguably robbed of others (same with the likes of Shaq and Wade) and certainly been the best player in the league, IMO.

West was a regular in the Finals, yet only won one championship? I know that team accomplishments are not the end-all, be-all of a player's career in terms of qualifying a player's worth, but this is a serious knock on West's resume, IMO. He is the only guy to win the MVP from the losing team, so that has to count for something, but still, it makes me curious as to why his teams consistently underachieved. Even taking Kobe's first three titles out of consideration, he won two as the best player and leader of the team. His leadership was great throughout the Kobe-Gasol era Lakers and he showed a LOT of maturity and the ability to be the guy they needed him to be. So unless somebody can explain West's constant failure in the Finals to help his team get the ship, this has to weigh heavily in Kobe's favor.

How was West's defense compared to Kobe? A regular on the all-NBA D teams is Kobe. His defense isn't nearly as consistent as it was earlier in his career, but when the Lakers need somebody to get locked up or defended well, Kobe gets it done.

I know West's nickname is "Mr.Clutch" so I'm going to assume that clutch play down the stretch is a wash, unless somebody can offer a reason as to why West is more clutch? And this is purely going off of reputation from articles and the limited footage of his "clutchness" like that half-court buzzer-beater that is constantly shown, lol. However, with the lack of championships, I am kind of skeptical as to how clutch he can really be.

Statistically, it looks like it is a wash. Unless somebody has actually seen lots of game footage of West by some chance, I just don't even see how you can even really make a true analysis between these two. Stats certainly aren't everything and the context of those stats should be taken into account.

Even comparing these players within their respective eras requires some insight into the game at those times and the identity of the league at that time (lots of run and gun offense, more defensive minded, slower-paced, etc). Weren't there a lot more possessions/game back in the 1960's compared with today?

So given the info I was given, I'd have to go with Kobe via more ability to achieve championships. At the end of the day, that's why they're playing basketball, to win championships. With the individual accolades seemingly a wash (However, even that is debatable in favor of Kobe, IMO. With him having more scoring titles, an MVP, and more finals MVPs), you have to look at team accolades.

It doesn't really seem like you can go wrong with either choice, but if I was an owner and I looked at what each of them was going to bring to my organization, how can you not go with Kobe?

This is a pretty honest attempt right here, and inevitably going with the guy you know. It is the exact reason I won't ever talk much about Bob Pettit or Bob Cousy. Ya the older NBA guys and fans will talk about them, but I didn't see games, nor seasons, nor careers.

Back then I would always think to myself Chet Walker HAD to be better than Pettit, look how awesome Chet was!! But how can I say that when, if I saw Pettit at all I don't remember it. Stats are valid within an era but not when you compare different eras.

Bill Russell declared for Pettit on his all time team, along with Oscar, West, & Baylor & that's worth a lot.


I started watching the NBA ( as in understanding the game, what was happening away from the ball etc.) during the Sixers run with Chamberlain.
I saw West and Baylor sprinting and they were amazing all right. Guys that say West wasn't athletic or couldn't play today or whatever - they have fallen into that trap & I doubt there's much hope they'd ever be objective. Jerry West was /seriously/ athletic.

As far as medicine........ !!! In those days a knee injury was fatal to a career. When Chamberlain jacked his knee in the 69 Finals, they sprayed freon on it - and he expected to go back in the game. Not kidding.

And yeah Kobe is a student of the game. Guys that don't know basketball history go around saying Kobe ripped of MJ's game. As if Jordan ever invented anything. West, Baylor, Oscar, Connie Hawkins, those guys were doing every move MJ ever dreamed of in 1967.

[24r2]

Michael Jordan

[La Frescobaldi]

Michael Jordan

So if Michael Jordan is the second greatest shooting guard, who is the greatest?

[Hank]

:lol


http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n157/Pro-sports/dirk-owns-kobe-o.gif