To start a franchise with: Kobe/KG vs. LeBron/Dirk

[ThaSwagg3r]

Which duo would you rather start a franchise with? Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett or LeBron James and Dirk Nowitzki?

[KGMN]

Kobe

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[Heavincent]

Kobe/KG. No doubt.

[EricForman]

kobe KG. Kobe's offense matches or surpasses's Dirk's offense, and KG's defense is the best of the four, by far.

[tpols]

I could see Lebron and Dirk being a deadly combo.. but Dirk would have to become an even bigger off the ball specialist. The only problem I have with this combo is that Dirk wouldn't be able to go one on one like he does so often without taking Lebron out of the offense pretty much. Big plus for this team is you got Lebron for the first 3 Qs and dirk for the 4th.:oldlol:

KG and Kobe would be a more well rounded team of offense plus defense. I also believe KG and Kobe were flat out better players than their opposition here.

[Jacks3]

Kobe/KG is just about the the perfect pair.

[TheFan]

hard to tell...
Lebron and Dirk running the pick&roll would be deadly.
But Kobe offense combined with KG defense....

My choice would heavily depend on the team surrounding those duos.... but if i were forced to pick one, id pick Kobe and Kevin, because they are the better rounded duo.

[TheFan]

did anybody noticed that the PF beat the wing player in a final?

Dirk over Lebron, 2011 finals.
KG over Kobe, 2008 finals.

[Meticode]

Kobe + KG.

In their primes they were premier defenders and elite offensive players. Plus, I feel their games better mesh together than LeBron and Dirk would. Garnett is still tons effective without having the ball in his hands.

Not disrespect to LeBron or Nowitzki, but I feel Kobe+KG would work out and be much better.

[ThaSwagg3r]

did anybody noticed that the PF beat the wing player in a final?

Dirk over Lebron, 2011 finals.
KG over Kobe, 2008 finals.
Pierce and Allen were the biggest reason why the Celtics won the finals in 2008......not KG.

[The Macho Man]

Well this really isn't very fair to Dirk.

[TheFan]

Pierce and Allen were the biggest reason why the Celtics won the finals in 2008......not KG.

well, good point, and you have the reason... but in my favor im going to say Celts wouldn't have made it so far without KG, just as Parker won a MVPF over Duncan, but the Spurs have no shot at title with Parker as the ace.

[ballup]

Pierce and Allen were the biggest reason why the Celtics won the finals in 2008......not KG.
KG was the biggest factor within that Celtic defense.

It is true that KG wasn't the clear cut man of the team as Dirk was. The media claimed it was KG's team, but real fans and people within the Celtics' organization claimed it was Pierce's.

[ThaSwagg3r]

well, good point, and you have the reason... but in my favor im going to say Celts wouldn't have made it so far without KG, just as Parker won a MVPF over Duncan, but the Spurs have no shot at title with Parker as the ace.
I'm not saying he wasn't the best player on that '08 Celtics team. What I was trying to say was he did not outplay Kobe nor was he the best or even the second best player on his team in the '08 Finals.

[with malice]

Pierce and Allen were the biggest reason why the Celtics won the finals in 2008......not KG.
The 2008 Celtics were clearly KG's team, regardless of what happened in the Finals.
The entire team even took on his persona...

Oh, and I'd definitely go Kobe/KG. There's far too much overlap in LeBron/Dirk's offense, and they're at best "good" defenders (at best) - whereas peak Kobe/KG are truly elite.

[Meticode]

It was Pierce's team. KG was the emotional leader, Pierce was the closer when the game was on the line. Pierce's team.

[with malice]

Is there any other way for it to be "someone's team" beyond being the "emotional leader"?
KG lead that team, they became hard-nosed and smash-mouthed just as KG was. It was Pierce's team prior to that season, but with the arrival of KG that changed, just as the team changed.
I have had this conversation with many Boston fans/bloggers - and the vast majority regard KG as the team's leader.

[pauk]

you have to be kidding me? Lebron/Dirk gives you ALOT more....

Lebron/Dirk basically gives you a total package of:

*Best shooting (Dirk)
*Best scoring (Lebron/Dirk)
*Best passing (Lebron)
*Best offensive/defensive versatility (Lebron)
*Best clutchness (Lebron/Dirk)
*Best productions (Lebron)
*Best leadership (Lebron/Dirk)
*Best defense (Lebron)
*Great rebounding (Dirk/Lebron)

Kobe/KG gives you:

*Best scoring (Kobe)
*Best clutchness (Kobe)
*Best defense (Garnett/Kobe)
*Best leadership (Garnett/Kobe)
*Great rebounding (Garnett)


ONE MORE THING............ IF YOU ARE GONA START A FRANCHISE WITH KOBE.... PLEASE REMEMBER HOW HE WAS WHEN HE CAME TO THE NBA.... HE WAS NO BETTER THAN HAROLD MINER.... THEN HE WAS JUST A 6TH MAN... THEN HE WAS A SIDEKICK....

MEANWHILE LEBRON & DIRK WOULD DOMINATE THE LEAGUE FROM THE GET GO...

LAST THING.... LEBRON & DIRK WOULD BE MUCH MORE COMPLEMENTARY PLAYERS, PROBABLY PERFECTLY COMPLEMENTARY TO THEIR GAMES & GAMESTYLES...

[ThaSwagg3r]

Is there any other way for it to be "someone's team" beyond being the "emotional leader"?
KG lead that team, they became hard-nosed and smash-mouthed just as KG was. It was Pierce's team prior to that season, but with the arrival of KG that changed, just as the team changed.
I have had this conversation with many Boston fans/bloggers - and the vast majority regard KG as the team's leader.
I didn't even say it wasn't KG's team all I said was KG was not the best or second best player in the 2008 Finals which is true. There is a reason why KG was not even in consideration for the 2008 Finals MVP. It was because Allen and Pierce were clearly better in the Finals. I don't think that the Celtics would have made it to the Finals without him though but I don't think they would have made it without Pierce either.

[AirTupac]

Tough choice but it's gotta be Kobe / KG for me.

[bdreason]

Kobe/KG is a no-brainer.

[bdreason]

MEANWHILE LEBRON & DIRK WOULD DOMINATE THE LEAGUE FROM THE GET GO...




Dirk dominated in the NBA from the get go? :confusedshrug:

[ballup]

Pauk, what is with you and your obsession with productivity?:lol

You forgot to mention that KG is one of the better passers for his position, how Kobe is one of the better rebounders for his position, and how Garnett is considered one of the most, if not the most, versatile pf to play the game.

And don't give us this rudimentary tally system. No way should Lebron's best defense be put in the same light as both Kobe's best and KG's best defense.

Now look what you made me do. I defended a Laker. You should be ashamed of yourself:no:

[with malice]

I didn't even say it wasn't KG's team ...
Nah mate, my comment was directed to the immediately preceding one (Meticode), not at you.

@ Pauk... dude, most people don't regard capslock to be an effective way of emphasis. It just comes across as foaming-at-the-mouth-crazed-fan-guy.
Still, your fandom is laudable.

Anyway, on your points... I'm not even going to go into your dot-points as they're completely subjective.
But the 'capslock' stuff:
- Kobe started at the Lakers. With Shaq. LeBron at Cleveland. I believe that's enough said on that.
- Umm... what?
- We're talking about a PF that plays like a SF, and a SF who plays like a PF. Pray tell, how do they complement each other *more* than KG/Kobe (a traditional 3 and 4)?

[amfirst]

KObe and KG primes were just too sick. We already seen LeBron's prime, but for some reason Dirk is actually better pass his prime, prob the experience factor.

[Brunch@Five]

in a game 2 vs 2 I'm taking Bron/Dirk. 5 on 5, Kobe/KG is probably easier to build around due to Dirk's lack of presence around the hoop on defense.

[with malice]

in a game 2 vs 2 I'm taking Bron/Dirk. 5 on 5, Kobe/KG is probably easier to build around due to Dirk's lack of presence around the hoop on defense.
Now sure. But peak-vs-peak, I don't think it's close.

[RazorBaLade]

you have to be kidding me? Lebron/Dirk gives you ALOT more....

Lebron/Dirk basically gives you a total package of:

*Best shooting (Dirk)
*Best scoring (Lebron/Dirk)
*Best passing (Lebron)
*Best offensive/defensive versatility (Lebron)
*Best clutchness (Lebron/Dirk)
*Best productions (Lebron)
*Best leadership (Lebron/Dirk)
*Best defense (Lebron)
*Great rebounding (Dirk/Lebron)

Kobe/KG gives you:

*Best scoring (Kobe)
*Best clutchness (Kobe)
*Best defense (Garnett/Kobe)
*Best leadership (Garnett/Kobe)
*Great rebounding (Garnett)


ONE MORE THING............ IF YOU ARE GONA START A FRANCHISE WITH KOBE.... PLEASE REMEMBER HOW HE WAS WHEN HE CAME TO THE NBA.... HE WAS NO BETTER THAN HAROLD MINER.... THEN HE WAS JUST A 6TH MAN... THEN HE WAS A SIDEKICK....

MEANWHILE LEBRON & DIRK WOULD DOMINATE THE LEAGUE FROM THE GET GO...

LAST THING.... LEBRON & DIRK WOULD BE MUCH MORE COMPLEMENTARY PLAYERS, PROBABLY PERFECTLY COMPLEMENTARY TO THEIR GAMES & GAMESTYLES...

im confused why do you say something like best scoring for both? if they are the best they should be the only, right?

[All Net]

Prime? Kobe and KG

[RRR3]

The 2008 Celtics were clearly KG's team, regardless of what happened in the Finals.
The entire team even took on his persona...

Oh, and I'd definitely go Kobe/KG. There's far too much overlap in LeBron/Dirk's offense, and they're at best "good" defenders (at best) - whereas peak Kobe/KG are truly elite.
:facepalm

[with malice]

Oh, and I'd definitely go Kobe/KG. There's far too much overlap in LeBron/Dirk's offense, and they're at best "good" defenders (at best) - whereas peak Kobe/KG are truly elite.
:facepalm
Oh gee. Your argumentative skills are without question, supreme. I lack the superlatives.
How can someone rebut the amazing argument you put forward???
...
...
...

[jjayfive]

kobe and Kg..

[Doranku]

Kobe/KG and it isn't even close.

[DMAVS41]

kobe and kg. they fit better together.

lebron and dirk would be deadly at times, but it would also take away from Dirk's one on one play because Lebron would be pretty useless with Dirk going one on one in the post. Can't shoot and doesn't know how to play without the ball.

that dirk/lebron pick and roll would be amazing though.

[scm5]

KG + Kobe in their primes would be SCARY.

This pairing might actually be the closest thing the league would see to a prime MJ + Pippen duo.

Kobe is essentially the closest thing we have to MJ. KG's defense might be better than Pippen's ever was simply because he's 4 inches taller. KG is also a better scorer and rebounder than Pippen and almost an equal passer.

[RRR3]

kobe and kg. they fit better together.

lebron and dirk would be deadly at times, but it would also take away from Dirk's one on one play because Lebron would be pretty useless with Dirk going one on one in the post. Can't shoot and doesn't know how to play without the ball.

that dirk/lebron pick and roll would be amazing though.
I would expect better from you than to buy into this myth. :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

I would expect better from you than to buy into this myth. :facepalm

I didn't mean "can't shoot" like he can't make anything. I meant he's not a good spot up shooter and that his off ball play is lacking.

So when Dirk goes 1 on 1, what is Lebron doing? That's right...he's standing on the three point line adding nothing to the team. Just like he does when Wade has the ball.

Now, maybe if Lebron played with a guy like Dirk his entire career he would have developed those abilities.....

If Lebron had those abilities? I'd take Lebron and Dirk. But he doesn't...and I see no reason not to take the more well rounded tandem in Kobe and KG.

[RRR3]

I didn't mean "can't shoot" like he can't make anything. I meant he's not a good spot up shooter and that his off ball play is lacking.

So when Dirk goes 1 on 1, what is Lebron doing? That's right...he's standing on the three point line adding nothing to the team. Just like he does when Wade has the ball.

Now, maybe if Lebron played with a guy like Dirk his entire career he would have developed those abilities.....

If Lebron had those abilities? I'd take Lebron and Dirk. But he doesn't...and I see no reason not to take the more well rounded tandem in Kobe and KG.

Fair enough. I'd take Kobe/KG too for what it's worth. I just am tired of people saying LeBron is a bad shooter when that hasn't been true in years. He's not a great shooter, but he's definitely a good shooter.

[DMAVS41]

Fair enough. I'd take Kobe/KG too for what it's worth. I just am tired of people saying LeBron is a bad shooter when that hasn't been true in years. He's not a great shooter, but he's definitely a good shooter.

He is when he has the ball in his hands and he knows exactly what is going to happen and he gets to make the decision.

But if you throw Lebron a pass off of a cut for a jumper? He's nothing special.

Its really not a huge knock on him or anything. Players aren't perfect. If Lebron was a great spot up shooter and had great off ball skills he'd probably be the best player ever.

Like I said, if Lebron would develop those abilities playing more team ball with Dirk throughout his career...I'll take Lebron and Dirk. It would be unstoppable...especially late in games. Still don't trust KG much late...and while Kobe's great late in games. I'd still rather have Dirk and Lebron in a tight game....especially if they are on the same team.

[with malice]

Like I said, if Lebron would develop those abilities playing more team ball with Dirk throughout his career...I'll take Lebron and Dirk. It would be unstoppable...especially late in games. Still don't trust KG much late...and while Kobe's great late in games. I'd still rather have Dirk and Lebron in a tight game....especially if they are on the same team.
Wait... even prime-time KG? I think you're selling him short.

[JellyBean]

Kobe and KG without a doubt!!!

[D.J.]

If everyone is in their primes, Kobe/KG. Kobe is a more versatile and explosive scorer and better perimeter defender than LeBron, and Garnett is a more versatile defender than Dirk. Garnett can also handle the ball and take the pressure off Kobe if need be.

[miles berg]

LeBron couldn't guard Kobe, KG couldn't guard Dirk, and Dirk couldn't guard KG. But Kobe could guard LeBron so the edge goes to Kobe/KG.

[RRR3]

LeBron couldn't guard Kobe, KG couldn't guard Dirk, and Dirk couldn't guard KG. But Kobe could guard LeBron so the edge goes to Kobe/KG.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[ImmortalD24]

It's close, but give me


http://i55.tinypic.com/x52ryq.jpg

[G-Funk]

KG & Kobe no question...thought about it for 5 seconds.

[with malice]

:roll: :roll: :roll:
You seem to do this a lot: rather than present an assessment of why you feel something's wrong, you go with the "smiley" response. Nothing more to add?

[bagelred]

The Swagger has 8 threads on the front page.

And yet he's not banned.



smh

[ThaSwagg3r]

The Swagger has 8 threads on the front page.

And yet he's not banned.



smh
http://i54.tinypic.com/2akl6p3.gif

[EnoughSaid]

Are we serious here? LeBron made Mo Williams a top 10 PG. Imagine what he could do with Dirk. :eek: Dirk would be seeing open shots all night long.

[knightfall88]

lebron dirk = no defense.

[EnoughSaid]

lebron dirk = no defense.

LeBron is one of the most versatile defenders ever.

[G-Funk]

Are we serious here? LeBron made Mo Williams a top 10 PG. Imagine what he could do with Dirk. :eek: Dirk would be seeing open shots all night long.
Mo Williams had better stats without James. most of the players that play with Lebron drop in productivity

[with malice]

LeBron is one of the most versatile defenders ever.
Aaaah... comments made in other threads beginning to make sense now.

[DMAVS41]

Wait... even prime-time KG? I think you're selling him short.

I should clarify. Compared to guys like Lebron, Kobe, and Dirk....he's falls significantly short in late game play. Maybe that doesn't matter all that much. Not sure.

I just know when the game is on the line with a few minutes left...I'd rather have Dirk and Lebron than a combination of KG and Kobe. That means a lot to me.

[All Net]

Mo Williams had better stats without James. most of the players that play with Lebron drop in productivity

I find that hard to believe after back to back 60 wins seasons.

[with malice]

I should clarify. Compared to guys like Lebron, Kobe, and Dirk....he's falls significantly short in late game play. Maybe that doesn't matter all that much. Not sure.

I just know when the game is on the line with a few minutes left...I'd rather have Dirk and Lebron than a combination of KG and Kobe. That means a lot to me.
As a Mavs fan, surely you witnessed enough of "late-game-LeBron"...

[with malice]

I find that hard to believe after back to back 60 wins seasons.
Why is that hard to believe? LeBron needs a helluva lotta ball...

[All Net]

Why is that hard to believe? LeBron needs a helluva lotta ball...

Because of how well they played with him compared to what they did when he was not there.

[DMAVS41]

As a Mavs fan, surely you witnessed enough of "late-game-LeBron"...

Well it depends on how you judge a player. Does body of work mean anything? Or are we going just off the finals.

Because Lebron had pretty easily been the best late game player in the NBA from for a few years now.

If its just about the Finals.....then give me Kobe obviously. But I don't think its fair to knock Lebron's late game play based on just this year playing alongside a player in Wade that does not complement his game at all.

That wouldn't be the case with Dirk. Good luck stopping the Lebron/Dirk pick and roll late in games. It would be impossible.

[with malice]

Well it depends on how you judge a player. Does body of work mean anything? Or are we going just off the finals.

Because Lebron had pretty easily been the best late game player in the NBA from for a few years now.

If its just about the Finals.....then give me Kobe obviously. But I don't think its fair to knock Lebron's late game play based on just this year playing alongside a player in Wade that does not complement his game at all.

That wouldn't be the case with Dirk. Good luck stopping the Lebron/Dirk pick and roll late in games. It would be impossible.
Hmm... I think if I had Kobe/KG, I'd have a damn good chance of stopping said pick 'n' roll. And therein lies where it all becomes clear:
Kobe/KG have a much better chance of stopping LeBron/Dirk than LeBron/Dirk have of stopping Kobe/KG.

And I was being somewhat facetious on LeBron's late-game gagging. Tho' if I were building around him, his big game anxiety issues would certainly give me pause.

[DMAVS41]

Hmm... I think if I had Kobe/KG, I'd have a damn good chance of stopping said pick 'n' roll. And therein lies where it all becomes clear:
Kobe/KG have a much better chance of stopping LeBron/Dirk than LeBron/Dirk have of stopping Kobe/KG.

And I was being somewhat facetious on LeBron's late-game gagging. Tho' if I were building around him, his big game anxiety issues would certainly give me pause.

I disagree. I don't think KG and Kobe could do anything to stop it. Kobe really doesn't like pick and roll all that much and I'd be just fine making KG take a lot of jumpers or shots late in a tight game.

KG really can't guard Dirk 1 on 1....Kobe could do a good job on Lebron 1 on 1 though....but that would never be at play. You could simply spot up Dirk in the corner with KG on him to draw KG out of the play and let Lebron go to work with another player on a pick and roll. Kobe is then off of Lebron and nobody is protecting the rim most likely.

Switch KG off Dirk and then throw the ball into Dirk in the post and let him go to work or pass out of the double.

It of course depends what the rest of the teams look like, but all things considered....Kobe and KG are not stopping Lebron and Dirk late in a game. Lebron is too good of a pick and roll player and passer and Dirk is just too good at just about everything offensively.

[with malice]

Say what? Dude... you need to watch some of KG at his peak. The guy was a beast.
Perhaps look at it this way then: which pairing do you think has a greater chance of stopping the other?

[DMAVS41]

Say what? Dude... you need to watch some of KG at his peak. The guy was a beast.
Perhaps look at it this way then: which pairing do you think has a greater chance of stopping the other?

Its not a 2 on 2 game....and no, I don't need to watch KG at all. I've seen his entire career.

He's a great player, but he's never been the offensive force that Dirk has been....certainly not late in games. That matters to me. And its not as if Dirk has to guard KG....most likely he wouldn't.

There is a reason why the Mavs have the best record in tight games since the 05 season and one of the best offenses in tight games and game winning situations. Dirk.

Put a player like Lebron next to Dirk....impossible to stop.

Would Kobe pass? Would KG take/make big shots? Would Kobe go into hero mode?

You wouldn't have issues like that with Lebron and Dirk in my opinion.

[with malice]

Its not a 2 on 2 game....and no, I don't need to watch KG at all. I've seen his entire career.

He's a great player, but he's never been the offensive force that Dirk has been....certainly not late in games. That matters to me. And its not as if Dirk has to guard KG....most likely he wouldn't.

There is a reason why the Mavs have the best record in tight games since the 05 season and one of the best offenses in tight games and game winning situations. Dirk.

Put a player like Lebron next to Dirk....impossible to stop.

Would Kobe pass? Would KG take/make big shots? Would Kobe go into hero mode?

You wouldn't have issues like that with Lebron and Dirk in my opinion.
Hey, I didn't open the door of "who-could-stop-who" - that was you ("Good luck stopping the Lebron/Dirk pick and roll late in games. It would be impossible.")...
So from the above post, I have gleaned that you agree that Dirk couldn't stop KG. To the point where you'd have 'someone else' defend him.

And on your questions of Kobe/KG... isn't it fair to ask similar ones of LeBron/Dirk?
Do we get Dirk of playoffs 2007/LeBron of 2011 Finals?

I'll reiterate: having Kobe/KG gives a team decent personnel to have a chance of stopping LeBron/Dirk. Having LeBron/Dirk means that to try to stop Kobe/KG you're turning to "someone else".

[DMAVS41]

Hey, I didn't open the door of "who-could-stop-who" - that was you ("Good luck stopping the Lebron/Dirk pick and roll late in games. It would be impossible.")...
So from the above post, I have gleaned that you agree that Dirk couldn't stop KG. To the point where you'd have 'someone else' defend him.

And on your questions of Kobe/KG... isn't it fair to ask similar ones of LeBron/Dirk?
Do we get Dirk of playoffs 2007/LeBron of 2011 Finals?

I'll reiterate: having Kobe/KG gives a team decent personnel to have a chance of stopping LeBron/Dirk. Having LeBron/Dirk means that to try to stop Kobe/KG you're turning to "someone else".

Sure, but again...basketball isn't a 2 on 2 game. So I don't know where this notion that it matter what Dirk does on KG....it simply wouldn't matter all that much. And actually, Dirk plays pretty good 1 on 1 defense.

I didn't say..."it would be impossible" to mean that Kobe and KG have to guard them. There are plenty of scenarios where they wouldn't....that was kind of my point. And once you make a great "team defender" like KG either stick to Dirk or play team defense. Its a huge advantage.

Dirk's series in 07 is not representative of his career. Just like Lebron's finals aren't. The truth is that Dirk and his teams have been at the top of late game play for the last 7 or so years. Lebron as well until last year.

I've already said I'm taking Kobe and KG. I was solely talking about late game play....which is why this is even close for me. And there is no doubt in my mind that Dirk and Lebron are a much better late game duo than Kobe and KG. KG simply is far behind the other three players. Kobe is far more selfish than Dirk and Lebron. That matters to me. There is a reason why the Lakers aren't near the top in any late game categories since Kobe became the man.

[with malice]

Yet since Kobe became 'the man', LA leads in one particular stat: titles won. That matters to me.

[Kiarip]

Dirk is a player who's difficult to build around. I think Lebron's lack of post-game or shooting abilities makes him a not so good teammate for Dirk.

Dirk is already the guy on that team who has the unstoppable offensive arsenal. Lebron isn't gonna have much to do on that team. He would be more useful if he could score effectively from the post or was a very good shooter, so he could make 3s consistently when he's open. He's gonna be religated to rebounding duties, and kicking the ball out.

Dirk can spread the floor and clear the paint a little, but against a competent defender like Kobe i dont' think you can count on lebron to get to the rim consistently. Also no one is gonna double dirk off the ball because it doesn't really help. On the other hand you could double Lebron and if you force the ball out of his hands he gets considerably less useful. If you play through Lebron Dirk is just another good shooter on his team that Lebron can kick to, If you play through Dirk a lot of Lebron's abilitie won't be utilized.

Kobe and Garnett gives you one versatile scorer, kinda like Dirk, but then it gives you a presence in the post who's great offensively and defensively. It's basically a Kobe and Shaq type combo, except Garnett isn't as dominant offensively but a lot more versatile on defense which would help against a player like Dirk, so I think Kobe/Garnett is a better match up.

[RRR3]

What the hell is with people thinking Kobe could guard LeBron? :facepalm Kobe has routinely bitched out and let Artest guard LeBron over the years. He'll guard LeBron for a few plays and then quit.

[Kiarip]

What the hell is with people thinking Kobe could guard LeBron? :facepalm Kobe has routinely bitched out and let Artest guard LeBron over the years. He'll guard LeBron for a few plays and then quit.
I thought we're talking prime kobe... Like 2003 that's largely pre-injuries.


Jason Terry guarded Lebron just fine, so I dont know what you're talking about

edit:

obviously you don't guard him close... you just force him to shoot that's all. and if he gets inside you get your center to hit him real hard a couple of times.

[RRR3]

I thought we're talking prime kobe... Like 2003 that's largely pre-injuries.


Jason Terry guarded Lebron just fine, so I dont know what you're talking about
Jason Terry didn't guard LeBron :facepalm. Jason Terry outplayed LeBron by scoring a lot on him, there's a difference. Jason Terry couldn't guard a chair. And no one can "guard" LeBron (no one can "guard" Kobe or any other player on that level really) consistently, mostly when he has a bad game it's on him.

[with malice]

What the hell is with people thinking Kobe could guard LeBron? :facepalm Kobe has routinely bitched out and let Artest guard LeBron over the years. He'll guard LeBron for a few plays and then quit.
Where have you been? Ron Artest (Metta World Peace?) has played 2 seasons for LA. Hardly "routinely"...

[Kiarip]

Jason Terry didn't guard LeBron :facepalm. Jason Terry outplayed LeBron by scoring a lot on him, there's a difference. Jason Terry couldn't guard a chair. And no one can "guard" LeBron (no one can "guard" Kobe or any other player on that level really) consistently, mostly when he has a bad game it's on him.


JT guarded him in the finals quite a bit. yes he didn't contest his shots, but he just stayed in front of him, and lebron took shots that he's actually not all that good at

[Jacks3]

Prime Kobe routinely guarded and shut down the other team's best player.

RRR3 is a retard.

[RRR3]

Where have you been? Ron Artest (Metta World Peace?) has played 2 seasons for LA. Hardly "routinely"...
I'm aware of that. Before that, Kobe would often let someone else guard LeBron (which in truth isn't really a knock on Kobe as Kobe isn't a SF and LBJ is a lot bigger) and occasionally guard him for a few plays. Kobe's best years as a defender are usually said to be the years before LeBron really became a superstar (up until about 2002-03).

[RRR3]

Prime Kobe routinely guarded and shut down the other team's best player.

RRR3 is a retard.
That's nice. LeBron isn't just any "team's best player".

[DMAVS41]

Yet since Kobe became 'the man', LA leads in one particular stat: titles won. That matters to me.

Ok. Great. You act like I'm calling him a scrub or something. You can win titles and not be great at the end of games. Just like Kobe was pretty awful in the 4th qtrs of the finals last year. Really bad....they still won....LOL

And you act like Kobe has torn up the league since 05. He's missed the playoffs, lost in the first round twice, lost as the favorite in the finals, back to back titles, and then lost as a huge favorite in the 2nd round.

[Jacks3]

I'll take Kobe/KG easily. Dork doesn't belong in this conversation. He's clearly a tier below the rest. Sucks for LeBron.

[DMAVS41]

I'll take Kobe/KG easily. Dork doesn't belong in this conversation. He's clearly a tier below the rest. Sucks for LeBron.

LOL...they said the same thing when KG and Dirk met in the playoffs.

I wonder how long it will take for the moronic masses to catch on. I guess a title and finals mvp wasn't enough.

[Jacks3]

Unfortunately, a title and accolades doesn't change the fact that Dork is clearly a tier below Kobe/KG/LeBron as a player. All those guys have been the best in the league at some point, Dork only has a couple of years where he's even top 5.

[G-Funk]

Hmm... I think if I had Kobe/KG, I'd have a damn good chance of stopping said pick 'n' roll. And therein lies where it all becomes clear:
Kobe/KG have a much better chance of stopping LeBron/Dirk than LeBron/Dirk have of stopping Kobe/KG.

And I was being somewhat facetious on LeBron's late-game gagging. Tho' if I were building around him, his big game anxiety issues would certainly give me pause.
:oldlol:

[G-Funk]

can u imagine a 2006-2010 Dirk playing along side Lechoke??? nothing but gagging late in games!:oldlol:

[pauk]

can u imagine a 2006-2010 Dirk playing along side Lechoke??? nothing but gagging late in games!:oldlol:

yes... lets call somebody who has the most gamewinners since 2003 and has been at the top in clutch stats since 2006 for a guy who gaggs late....

:hammerhead:

[with malice]

Ok. Great. You act like I'm calling him a scrub or something. You can win titles and not be great at the end of games. Just like Kobe was pretty awful in the 4th qtrs of the finals last year. Really bad....they still won....LOL

And you act like Kobe has torn up the league since 05. He's missed the playoffs, lost in the first round twice, lost as the favorite in the finals, back to back titles, and then lost as a huge favorite in the 2nd round.
Calm down dude, I didn't diss you - you've raised some good points and made me think more on this (even tho' we've picked the same). I've kinda enjoyed the t

[pauk]

[QUOTE=with malice]Calm down dude, I didn't diss you - you've raised some good points and made me think more on this (even tho' we've picked the same). I've kinda enjoyed the t

[Doranku]

Ok. Great. You act like I'm calling him a scrub or something. You can win titles and not be great at the end of games. Just like Kobe was pretty awful in the 4th qtrs of the finals last year. Really bad....they still won....LOL

And you act like Kobe has torn up the league since 05. He's missed the playoffs, lost in the first round twice, lost as the favorite in the finals, back to back titles, and then lost as a huge favorite in the 2nd round.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Missing 2 starters, winning 9 less games in the regular season, and not having HCA = favorites guys!!!

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Missing 2 starters, winning 9 less games in the regular season, and not having HCA = favorites guys!!!

The Lakers were the favorites in the Finals. Just a simple fact actually. Not debatable. I love how people want to argue facts. The Lakers were the favorites going into the finals.

Looking back...should they have been? Nope. Doesn't change reality or facts.

[Jacks3]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Missing 2 starters, winning 9 less games in the regular season, and not having HCA = favorites guys!!!
Dude is a retard.

[Jacks3]

can u imagine a 2006-2010 Dirk playing along side Lechoke??? nothing but gagging late in games!:oldlol:
:oldlol:

[Doranku]

The Lakers were the favorites in the Finals. Just a simple fact actually. Not debatable. I love how people want to argue facts. The Lakers were the favorites going into the finals.

Looking back...should they have been? Nope. Doesn't change reality or facts.

If they shouldn't have been, why are you even bringing it up as if it's relevant? :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=with malice]Calm down dude, I didn't diss you - you've raised some good points and made me think more on this (even tho' we've picked the same). I've kinda enjoyed the t

[DMAVS41]

If they shouldn't have been, why are you even bringing it up as if it's relevant? :oldlol:

Its relevant because the revisionist history that goes on by Kobe stans for the 08 finals is absurd.

If Kobe had played like the best player in the world or simply had just been the best player in the series....the Lakers could have won.

Its funny how people forget that the Lakers were a blown 25 point lead in game 4 away from going back to Boston up 3-2.

Were the Celtics the better team? Sure, but maybe the Lakers would have won if Kobe had played the way he should have.

But of course its all the fault of Gasol and Fisher and everyone else. Funny how Kobe shoots 9 of 26 in game 1 and grabs only 3 boards (Lakers got killed on the glass...and Ray Allen had 8 boards).....and his team is down 1 heading into the 4th. But he's free from blame.

Or how about him being a total non factor in the 24 point blown lead at home in game 4.

Yes, free from blame. If Kobe plays well in that series the Lakers win. Simple as that. Game 1 and 4 were there to be had going into the 4th. Kobe came up short. If he doesn't....Lakers have a very good chance to win the series.

[Doranku]

Its relevant because the revisionist history that goes on by Kobe stans for the 08 finals is absurd.

If Kobe had played like the best player in the world or simply had just been the best player in the series....the Lakers could have won.

Its funny how people forget that the Lakers were a blown 25 point lead in game 4 away from going back to Boston up 3-2.

Were the Celtics the better team? Sure, but maybe the Lakers would have won if Kobe had played the way he should have.

If the Celtics were the better team, and they had HCA (which, as history confirms, is HUGE in the Finals), how the f*ck were the Lakers favorites?

[BEAST Griffin]

Kobe and KG

[DMAVS41]

If the Celtics were the better team, and they had HCA (which, as history confirms, is HUGE in the Finals), how the f*ck were the Lakers favorites?

Are you this dense? You don't determine a favorite years later.

Going into the finals if you were betting on the series....the Lakers were favored. You had to bet more on them to win the same amount of money as you would on the celtics.

Favorites....LOL

Here:

http://www.ogpaper.com/news/news-02035.html

Lakers were -160
Celtics were +140

And the reason for that was Kobe. Everyone thought he'd be by far the best player in the series and he'd dominate. That didn't happen. In fact, Kobe was probably the third best player in the series and let two close games slip away. Again, if Kobe doesn't come up real short in games 1 and 4 the Lakers probably win the series. So its not like it was some unrealistic expectation to think the Lakers would win that series.

[with malice]

LA had the better season, but they were unfairly favourites - and the result bore that out.
LA had improved beyond expectations, and I think the pundits got a little too excited about the improvement they'd made.

But you've answered your own question: Boston were the better team, and had HCA. Sure, if Kobe had played out of his mind... LA might have won.
However, if LeBron had played the last Finals at even around 75% - there's no doubt in my mind that the Heat win.
Thankfully... it's history now.

[DMAVS41]

LA had the better season, but they were unfairly favourites - and the result bore that out.
LA had improved beyond expectations, and I think the pundits got a little too excited about the improvement they'd made.

But you've answered your own question: Boston were the better team, and had HCA. Sure, if Kobe had played out of his mind... LA might have won.
However, if LeBron had played the last Finals at even around 75% - there's no doubt in my mind that the Heat win.
Thankfully... it's history now.

Totally agree about Lebron.

Disagree with Kobe. He did not have to play out of his mind...that is my exact point. He needed to play good. That is all. He was awful in games 1 and 4 yet his team was right there in both 4th qtrs....and he did nothing.

Can't have 3 stinkers in a 7 game series against a quality team and expect to win. Sometimes it doesn't happen....sometimes it does. But to claim Kobe had to play out of his mind in 08 to win is the exact same revisionist history I'm talking about.

[ihatetimthomas]

Fundamentally, Kobe and KG compliment each other well and they are the safe and traditional choice. But a Lebron and Dirk duo would be the most difficult duo to defend in NBA history. Lebron and Dirk are 2 of the most unique players ever to play the game. They are a real mismatch for almost anyone defending them. If they were able to co-exist, they would be so exciting. But even with all that, I go with Kobe and KG. You have KG who can anchor a defense and he would easily be able to play second fiddle to Kobe. KG is one of the best passing big men and his midrange would be deadly with Kobe on the perimeter and on the block. You cant go wrong with either choice though.

[BEAST Griffin]

Are you this dense? You don't determine a favorite years later.

Going into the finals if you were betting on the series....the Lakers were favored. You had to bet more on them to win the same amount of money as you would on the celtics.

Favorites....LOL

Here:

http://www.ogpaper.com/news/news-02035.html

Lakers were -160
Celtics were +140

And the reason for that was Kobe. Everyone thought he'd be by far the best player in the series and he'd dominate. That didn't happen. In fact, Kobe was probably the third best player in the series and let two close games slip away. Again, if Kobe doesn't come up real short in games 1 and 4 the Lakers probably win the series. So its not like it was some unrealistic expectation to think the Lakers would win that series.

Always funny how Kobe stans try to bury the fact that Kobe is overrated.

I remember them going around promising how he'd shit on the Celtics.

:roll: :roll:

Three years later: No...no.nooo...never happened...and Kobe actually played pretty good!!!...

:roll: :roll:

funny when he doesn't perform as well as hyped the standards are lowered for him by the stans and garbage by him gets turned into good.....

yeah, i'd say he played good if he was an average player...

[with malice]

Disagree with Kobe. He did not have to play out of his mind...that is my exact point. He needed to play good. That is all. He was awful in games 1 and 4 yet his team was right there in both 4th qtrs....and he did nothing.

You're confused. It was games 4 and 6 where he was awful... and even that adjective is a mighty stretch.

Game 1 - 24 pts; 6 ast; 3 rebounds; a steal and a block. Loss (88-98).
Game 2 - 30 pts; 8 ast; 4 rebounds; 3 steals. Loss (102-108).
Game 3 - 36 pts; 1 ast; 7 rebounds; 2 steals. Win (87-81).
Game 4 - 17 pts; 10 ast; 4 rebounds; 4 steals. Loss (97-91).
Game 5 - 25 pts; 4 ast; 7 rebounds; 5 steals. Win (103-98).
Game 6 - 22 pts; 1 asts; 3 rebound; 1 steal. Had the crap embarrassed outta them (92-131).

I'd pay the last game as a "poor" performance... and game 4 as not up to standards (but even tho' he was having a bad shooting night - he still had a positive impact on the game). But that's all. For the series, Kobe did play well.
Not I who's indulging in revisionist history...


...
Welcome to being an NBA fan.

[DMAVS41]

You're confused. It was games 4 and 6 where he was awful... and even that adjective is a mighty stretch.

Game 1 - 24 pts; 6 ast; 3 rebounds; a steal and a block. Loss (88-98).
Game 2 - 30 pts; 8 ast; 4 rebounds; 3 steals. Loss (102-108).
Game 3 - 36 pts; 1 ast; 7 rebounds; 12 steals. Win (87-81).
Game 4 - 17 pts; 10 ast; 4 rebounds; 4 steals. Loss (97-91).
Game 5 - 25 pts; 4 ast; 7 rebounds; 5 steals. Win (103-98).
Game 6 - 22 pts; 1 asts; 3 rebound; 1 steal. Had the crap embarrassed outta them (92-131).

I'd pay the last game as a "poor" performance... and game 4 as not up to standards (but even tho' he was having a bad shooting night - he still had a positive impact on the game). But that's all. For the series, Kobe did play well.
Not I who's indulging in revisionist history...


Welcome to being an NBA fan.


I'm not confused:

In game 1 Kobe was awful. He shot 9 of 26 and only got 3 boards....Ray Allen had 8 boards. Again...the revisionist history from Kobe stans. You praise him for his 15 boards in game 7 in 10 and then don't mention rebounding in games like this. Totally inconsistent.

But in game 1 Kobe was bad....and really even worse than his stats because the Lakers were only down 1 going into the 4th qtr. Even as bad as he had played, the game was still right there.

LOL....I'm confused? Might want to go back and check game 1 out mate.

He was bad in game 6, but that was expected. Kobe is historically bad in elimination games and his teams have a knack for getting blown out.

[Jacks3]

I didn't know 26/6/5/3/52% TS against the best defense ever was awful. I mean, if that's awful, what was Dirk in 2007 against the Warriors or in the 06 Finals against one of the worst champions ever? :roll:

[Jacks3]

DMAVS41

And the reason for that was Kobe. [/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

I didn't know 26/6/5/3/52% TS against the best defense ever was awful. I mean, if that's awful, what was Dirk in 2007 against the Warriors or in the 06 Finals against one of the worst champions ever? :roll:

The 08 Celtics were not the best defense ever. LOL

And what does this have to do with Dirk.

Dirk was horrendous in 07...simple as that.

Dirk was bad against the Heat...simple as that.

That is the difference between normal fans and Kobe stans. Every player has bad moments and series. Fans of that player should be able to admit it. Not Kobe stans though....always an excuse. Always have to find a way to give Kobe a free pass.

ROFL

[with malice]

I'm not confused:

In game 1 Kobe was awful. He shot 9 of 26 and only got 3 boards....Ray Allen had 8 boards. Again...the revisionist history from Kobe stans. You praise him for his 15 boards in game 7 in 10 and then don't mention rebounding in games like this. Totally inconsistent.

But in game 1 Kobe was bad....and really even worse than his stats because the Lakers were only down 1 going into the 4th qtr. Even as bad as he had played, the game was still right there.

LOL....I'm confused? Might want to go back and check game 1 out mate.

He was bad in game 6, but that was expected. Kobe is historically bad in elimination games and his teams have a knack for getting blown out.
Now you're getting rude and disrespectful. I'm fine with that too if you want to go that way. Biting my tongue at the moment...

Revisionist? Was it a good game? No, but to declare it awful is simply letting your own particular brand of bias shine through.
You're engaging in semantics. I said "play out of his mind", you said "play well". The reality is probably somewhere between the two.

[Jacks3]

Yeah, they were the best defense ever, along with the 04 Pistons and the 93 Knicks. It's a fact. And it's always funny to see a Dirk homer use playoff disappointments against another player. :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Now you're getting rude and disrespectful. I'm fine with that too if you want to go that way.

Revisionist? Was it a good game? No, but to declare it awful is simply letting your own particular brand of bias shine through.
You're engaging in semantics. I said "play out of his mind", you said "play well". The reality is probably somewhere between the two.

What?

I want to know why the standards for Kobe are so low if he's one of the best players ever in the heart of his prime. I swear when Kobe plays poorly...his fans act like he's a run of the mill player.

He's one of the best players ever. He was awful in game 1. 9 of 26 and 3 boards and letting a close game slip away. Awful. Just like blowing a 24 point lead in game 4 at home was awful.

Kobe playing out of his mind is what he did against the Nuggets in 09. Kobe did not have to do that to beat the Celtics. He had to play slightly better in 2 games of a series in which he played subpar to begin with.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, they were the best defense ever, along with the 04 Pistons and the 93 Knicks. It's a fact. And it's always funny to see a Dirk homer use playoff disappointments against another player. :roll:

Using it against him? Its just a fact.

Dirk has nothing to do with this. Nobody would dispute Dirk coming up short in 06 and 07.

The difference is that Kobe fans can't admit that Kobe blew the 06 suns series game 7, the 04 finals, the 08 finals, game 7 10 finals, lakers vs mavs 11 series.

Come back to reality please.

[Jacks3]

Just like how Dirk blew it in 2005, 2006 finals, 2007, 2008, 2011 finals game 6, etc etc? :roll: :roll: :roll:

lol @ "blowing" all those series/games,especially 2006 or 2010.

guess he did it by himself in 2001, 2002, 2009, and 2010. :roll:

[with malice]

Gotta bail - but I'm sticking with the "not awful" comment for the series.
Could he have played better? Absolutely. You might want to have a look at who he had to work with (admittedly - I feel pointing to "other players" is somewhat a cop-out).

You said that Kobe played awfully in the 2008 Finals series. That is simply incorrect.
And pull your head in on the condescension please. It's annoying. I very much doubt it if you'd enjoy being painted as nothing more than a Dirk fanboi.

[LebronairJAMES]

Which duo would you rather start a franchise with? Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett or LeBron James and Dirk Nowitzki? and dont forget i suck ****
:roll:

[lakers87]

I'm inclined to go Kobe/KG just because they are so versatile. Prime KG is a nasty defender and would give Dirk fits. Kobe/KG just seem to fit much better, cannot pinpoint the exact reason.

[Doranku]

Totally agree about Lebron.

Disagree with Kobe. He did not have to play out of his mind...that is my exact point. He needed to play good. That is all. He was awful in games 1 and 4 yet his team was right there in both 4th qtrs....and he did nothing.

Can't have 3 stinkers in a 7 game series against a quality team and expect to win. Sometimes it doesn't happen....sometimes it does. But to claim Kobe had to play out of his mind in 08 to win is the exact same revisionist history I'm talking about.

No, the reason that LA was favorite was because people only focus on what has just recently happened. People saw Boston struggle against the Hawks and Cavs, and saw LA dismantle the defending champion Spurs.

This, of course, ignores the huge match-up problems that LA had against Boston. No Ariza to defend Pierce (instead we had Radmanovic starting :facepalm ). Pau playing out of place at center w/ Drew injured. No bench whatsoever considering Odom was starting at the 4.

Meanwhile, the Celtics had Ray and Pierce to switch off on Kobe and the DPOY down low along with an above average defensive center in Perkins.

I don't know why you keep putting so much stock in LA being "favorites" when it was clear that Boston had the better team and they had home court advantage. Just doesn't make sense.

[DMAVS41]

No, the reason that LA was favorite was because people only focus on what has just recently happened. People saw Boston struggle against the Hawks and Cavs, and saw LA dismantle the defending champion Spurs.

This, of course, ignores the huge match-up problems that LA had against Boston. No Ariza to defend Pierce (instead we had Radmanovic starting :facepalm ). Pau playing out of place at center w/ Drew injured. No bench whatsoever considering Odom was starting at the 4.

Meanwhile, the Celtics had Ray and Pierce to switch off on Kobe and the DPOY down low along with an above average defensive center in Perkins.

I don't know why you keep putting so much stock in LA being "favorites" when it was clear that Boston had the better team and they had home court advantage. Just doesn't make sense.


And yet with all of that...and you are selling the Lakers short. They had every chance to go back to Boston up 3-2. In fact, if Kobe doesn't play as poorly as he did in games 1 and 4....the series could have been over in 5.

Winning in sports is extremely fragile. Once again, Kobe stans must protect their hero no matter what.

The Celtics were underdogs partly for the reasons above...of course. They struggled with some other teams that were much worse than the Lakers.

And....the thing you won't admit....is that Kobe was playing some of the best ball of his career and looked to easily be the best player in the finals. Most were expecting a dominating performance. Of course the Celtics would have been favored if everyone could see the future.

I also love how Dirk is thrown into this. And I especially love how the 06 finals comes up as if Dirk was just terrible. Were the Heat not better looking back? Wade and Shaq coached by Pat Riley....LOL. Not to mention if Kobe is getting a pass for his teammates in 08....how the **** does Dirk not get the same benefit playing with worse players. How about the fact that the difference in the series was a guard.

Basically you are for there just being no favorites. Looking back, the Warriors should have been even money to beat the Mavs. Nightmare match up and a better coach. Avery panicked and went small. People that knew the Mavs were already scared going into the series....If we had known that Avery would have one of the worst coaching series I've ever seen....I would have been even more worried about a loss. Playing small ball....the 07 Mavs were simply a worse team than the Warriors.

Does that mean the Mavs were not favorites? Of course not. The Mavs were huge favorites.

And you can spin the 08 series however you want. Everyone that isn't blinded by their love for Kobe knows that a big reason the Lakers lost that series was Kobe's play. He came up real short in two tight games in game 1 and game 4....and then he did nothing in the elimination game. Again, you can't play 3 stinkers in a 7 game series and expect to beat another great team.

Just like you can spin the 06 Suns series, the 03 Spurs series, the 04 Finals, the 10 Finals, and the 11 Mavs series. Always an excuse.

I'm sure you are the type of person that thinks the Lakers weren't favorites against the Mavs either. LOL

The point is that even some of the best players of all time have poor series, games, and moments on their resume.

Dirk definitely does. Kobe definitely does as well. Deal with it.

[Doranku]

Yet, as bad as Kobe supposedly played in game 4, he put up 10/3 assists in the 4th quarter on 50% shooting.

Let's just ignore that James f*cking Posey single-handedly outscored our bench. Also let's ignore the 10 assists/4 steals that Kobe had with only two turnovers. Because as we all know, on ISH, the only stat that actually matters is FG%!!!

EDIT: And no, I 100% agree that the Lakers were the favorites against Dallas. 'Twas an embarrassing performance from the entire team and the coaching staff alike. Very disappointing to watch as a fan.

[with malice]

I'm sure you are the type of person that thinks the Lakers weren't favorites against the Mavs either. LOL

The point is that even some of the best players of all time have poor series, games, and moments on their resume.

Dirk definitely does. Kobe definitely does as well. Deal with it.
You really have one pretty big chip on your shoulder, huh? You *seem* pretty intelligent and capable of a good discussion. How about attempting to do so without the derision?

[DMAVS41]

Yet, as bad as Kobe supposedly played in game 4, he put up 10/3 assists in the 4th quarter on 50% shooting.

Let's just ignore that James f*cking Posey single-handedly outscored our bench. Also let's ignore the 10 assists/4 steals that Kobe had with only two turnovers. Because as we all know, on ISH, the only stat that actually matters is FG%!!!

EDIT: And no, I 100% agree that the Lakers were the favorites against Dallas. 'Twas an embarrassing performance from the entire team and the coaching staff alike. Very disappointing to watch as a fan.

FG% out of a scorer like Kobe is almost always the most important. But I wonder why you ignore Kobe's inept rebounding in some of those finals games....and then turn around and praise him for his rebounding in game 7 of 10.

Isn't getting only 3 boards in 42 minutes pretty bad...especially when your team is getting killed on the glass and your counterpart (ray allen) gets 5 more boards? I personally don't care all that much, but it just seems inconsistent. You say all I care about is fg%, but then turn around and don't mention Kobe's poor rebounding and 4 turnovers in game 1.

And sorry, Kobe was just bad in game 4. No excuses. He was the leader of a team that blew a 24 point lead in the finals....that is bad enough, but he played poorly on top.

And again. So many excuses. Yet you turn around and bring Dirk into this. The two series that Dirk gets hammered for are funny to me. You talk about James Posey.....and act like Kobe is free from blame for everything...fine.

Then why should Dirk be blamed for Baron Davis and Dwayne Wade destroying the Mavs? He doesn't play guard. I just find it funny. Those two series were largely lost because the Mavs perimeter defense was beyond bad. Its no more Dirk's job to stop Davis or Wade than it was Kobe's job to stop KG. Funny how Gasol gets hammered for 08 but you rarely here about anybody else on the Mavs getting blamed for all the perimeter players going nuts in 06 and 07.

[DMAVS41]

You really have one pretty big chip on your shoulder, huh? You *seem* pretty intelligent and capable of a good discussion. How about attempting to do so without the derision?

You "seem" capable as well. Why throw things out like Kobe needed to play "out of his mind" in 08 to win? We both know that is a load of garbage.

[$LakerGold]

Are you serious? Its a No Brainer...

Kobe/KG

You shouldve replaced Lebron and Dirk with.. MJ/Tim Duncan

[RRR3]

Are you serious? Its a No Brainer...

Kobe/KG

You shouldve replaced Lebron and Dirk with.. MJ/Tim Duncan
While I would take Kobe/KG too, :facepalm at you for acting like it's not close.

[catch24]

While I would take Kobe/KG too, :facepalm at you for acting like it's not close.

Funny thing is the example he gave would be a larger gap in MJ/Duncan's favor. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Funny thing is the example he gave would be a larger gap in MJ/Duncan's favor. :oldlol:
Well that wouldn't even be a debate, now would it?:D

[creepingdeath]

Meh, bait thread. I don't even care about the discussion. Dirk = champion.

Outta here.

http://gifs.imgdumpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/gangsta.gif

[with malice]

You "seem" capable as well. Why throw things out like Kobe needed to play "out of his mind" in 08 to win? We both know that is a load of garbage.
Ummm... ease up on the derision wouldja? But it's cool - you wanna go that way - I'll keep it in mind for future discussion. Thanks.

And "play out of his mind" is only as much a load of garbage as "he played awful". I stated that the truth was probably somewhere between the two. You remained adamant on the "awful". Semantics.

[DMAVS41]

Ummm... ease up on the derision wouldja? But it's cool - you wanna go that way - I'll keep it in mind for future discussion. Thanks.

And "play out of his mind" is only as much a load of garbage as "he played awful". I stated that the truth was probably somewhere between the two. You remained adamant on the "awful". Semantics.

Its not semantics. Kobe Bryant is one of the best players of all time. His standards are very high. Why are the standards so low for him for the 08 series? You act like he's Joe Johnson or something. It was the freaking NBA finals and greatness is expected by the great. Doesn't mean every player that plays in the finals has to play great, but if you lose and don't play great...its on you.

Again, Kobe played 3 stinkers in 6 games. In 2 of the stinkers, the games were winnable in the 4th. One of them his team had a 24 point lead. Based on the greatness of Kobe Bryant.....I view him playing as poorly as he did in the 08 finals a severe letdown. He was playing some of the best ball of his career going into the series.

And all I said was that Kobe needed to play "well"...in order to win that series. You said he needed to play out of his mind. I just find stuff like this interesting. Most people here consider Kobe better than Wade. But when Wade tears up the Celtics in 10....its a bunch of "meh"....but then when Kobe plays much much worse....his fans still claim he played "well".

Same thing with the Pistons for those two. So I get confused. If Kobe is definitely better than Wade...why are the expectations for Kobe's level of play lower since about the 05 season. Doesn't make sense to me.

You have to understand that players are graded on a curve. Kobe is graded on a curve that relates to the company he's in. People rank him with West, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, and Bird. Not Joe Johnson or whomever his stans want to the curve to be set on.

[kaiiu]

I have em ranked in this order career wise
Kobe
Dirk
KG
'Brick

Dirk is the 2nd best of the group but his partner is a weak link

[DMAVS41]

I have em ranked in this order career wise
Kobe
Dirk
KG
'Brick

Dirk is the 2nd best of the group but his partner is a weak link

And I just don't think Lebron fits all that well around Dirk. The tough question is whether or not playing with a team player like Dirk helps Lebron improve his ability to play team ball and not be a one man show.

Lebron's big flaws are his off ball movement and shooting in my opinion. Maybe playing with Dirk forces Lebron to adapt his game and learn those things.

But the players that we know them to be. Its Kobe and KG for me. Although, I do think Lebron and Dirk would be about as unstoppable late in games as any combo ever has been. Those pick and rolls would just be impossible to stop with Dirk either popping to the three point line to space the defense, Dirk getting a switch with a smaller player, Lebron getting a switch with a big, and Lebron just attacking the open lanes and getting to the ft line or easy baskets. I honestly don't think that could ever be stopped.

That makes it closer for me than most, but I can't overlook the other negatives and the great fit of Kobe and KG.

[kaiiu]

Dirk would prolly teach him how to shoot doe. Theres nothing that Lebrons game would do to elevate Dirks game at all. Dirk already aint a great rebounder and now he would have a player coming in and stealing his boards. I honestly dont see how Dirk would average 4 or 5 rebounds playing next to him. Dirk is best as a iso player and how can he iso if 'Brick is holdin the ball for 20 seconds. James is only the 3rd best passer Dirk would have played wit to

[with malice]

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Damn dude... but ok. And I think you're still stretching it on calling those games "stinkers". I'd call game 6 a stinker, and games 1/4 "not up to par". Before you go off on that: yes, there is a difference.
And don't tell me how I assess players. You simply don't know.

By your own standards, I guess it'd be fair to say that Dirk was awful in the 2007 playoffs too, huh?

[Doranku]

FG% out of a scorer like Kobe is almost always the most important. But I wonder why you ignore Kobe's inept rebounding in some of those finals games....and then turn around and praise him for his rebounding in game 7 of 10.

Isn't getting only 3 boards in 42 minutes pretty bad...especially when your team is getting killed on the glass and your counterpart (ray allen) gets 5 more boards? I personally don't care all that much, but it just seems inconsistent. You say all I care about is fg%, but then turn around and don't mention Kobe's poor rebounding and 4 turnovers in game 1.

And sorry, Kobe was just bad in game 4. No excuses. He was the leader of a team that blew a 24 point lead in the finals....that is bad enough, but he played poorly on top.

And again. So many excuses. Yet you turn around and bring Dirk into this. The two series that Dirk gets hammered for are funny to me. You talk about James Posey.....and act like Kobe is free from blame for everything...fine.

Then why should Dirk be blamed for Baron Davis and Dwayne Wade destroying the Mavs? He doesn't play guard. I just find it funny. Those two series were largely lost because the Mavs perimeter defense was beyond bad. Its no more Dirk's job to stop Davis or Wade than it was Kobe's job to stop KG. Funny how Gasol gets hammered for 08 but you rarely here about anybody else on the Mavs getting blamed for all the perimeter players going nuts in 06 and 07.

I haven't mentioned Dirk one time in this thread, what are you talking about?

I'm not making excuses, I've said plenty of times before that if Kobe had played like he did against the Western Conference LA could've and probably would've won the series. And Kobe was downright putrid in Game 1. Absolutely awful, LA had a legitimate chance to steal the first game and he blew it big time.

However, the rest of the series I don't think he played "horrible" by any stretch. His shooting numbers were bad in game 4, sure. But he played like the best player in the league in the 4th quarter. His teammates didn't show up in the second half, ESPECIALLY the bench who were the main reasons that LA blew their huge lead in the first place.

Game 6, Kobe came out firing and kept his team in the game during the first quarter. After that? No one showed up. Absolutely no one. A complete and utter meltdown.

Games 4 and 6 were both collective meltdowns. While Kobe should receive some of the blame, it's unfair to place all of the blame on him because he really didn't play that poorly outside of Game 1.

Also, give credit to the Celtics defense. They had a brilliant game plan for stopping Kobe and they did about as much as you can ask for in stopping a player of his caliber.

Bottom line, you're making it seem like he played awful all series when that simply isn't true. Could he have played better? Sure, and he probably should have. But he certainly wasn't the only reason why they lost that series.

[DMAVS41]

Damn dude... but ok. And I think you're still stretching it on calling those games "stinkers". I'd call game 6 a stinker, and games 1/4 "not up to par". Before you go off on that: yes, there is a difference.
And don't tell me how I assess players. You simply don't know.

By your own standards, I guess it'd be fair to say that Dirk was awful in the 2007 playoffs too, huh?

Absolutely Dirk was awful in 07. He's an all time great and his standards are much higher than that. He was worse than awful.

[DMAVS41]

I haven't mentioned Dirk one time in this thread, what are you talking about?

I'm not making excuses, I've said plenty of times before that if Kobe had played like he did against the Western Conference LA could've and probably would've won the series. And Kobe was downright putrid in Game 1. Absolutely awful, LA had a legitimate chance to steal the first game and he blew it big time.

However, the rest of the series I don't think he played "horrible" by any stretch. His shooting numbers were bad in game 4, sure. But he played like the best player in the league in the 4th quarter. His teammates didn't show up in the second half, ESPECIALLY the bench who were the main reasons that LA blew their huge lead in the first place.

Game 6, Kobe came out firing and kept his team in the game during the first quarter. After that? No one showed up. Absolutely no one. A complete and utter meltdown.

Games 4 and 6 were both collective meltdowns. While Kobe should receive some of the blame, it's unfair to place all of the blame on him because he really didn't play that poorly outside of Game 1.

Also, give credit to the Celtics defense. They had a brilliant game plan for stopping Kobe and they did about as much as you can ask for in stopping a player of his caliber.

Bottom line, you're making it seem like he played awful all series when that simply isn't true. Could he have played better? Sure, and he probably should have. But he certainly wasn't the only reason why they lost that series.

No player is ever the sole reason why a team wins or loses. I've never said that. I simply was addressing the revisionist history that most Kobe stans fall victim to. Kobe did not have to play "out of his mind" for the Lakers to win. It wouldn't have been a monumental upset or anything like that. Series like that are when the greats that Kobe is compared to step up and play great. But Kobe didn't even need to play great...he just needed to play well.

If you aren't one of them....then pay no attention. I just find that a lot of people act like that series was completely one sided. It simply wasn't. Game 6 skews a lot of the views on the series. Same thing with the Mavs this year. Its like getting blown out in an elimination game is somehow a good thing....LOL

[with malice]

Kobe did not have to play "out of his mind" for the Lakers to win. It wouldn't have been a monumental upset or anything like that. Series like that are when the greats that Kobe is compared to step up and play great. But Kobe didn't even need to play great...he just needed to play well.

If you aren't one of them....then pay no attention. I just find that a lot of people act like that series was completely one sided. It simply wasn't. Game 6 skews a lot of the views on the series. Same thing with the Mavs this year. Its like getting blown out in an elimination game is somehow a good thing....LOL
And neither, was Kobe completely awful. It's just something the anti-kobe-stans like to smugly point to.

That said, I agree with the bolded part.