ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #4 Jerry West Vs Oscar Robertson.

[Kblaze8855]

Still filling in for GOAT till he returns. Last vote was somewhere in the area of 13-1 for West.


Make your arguments here for the next 48 hours on rather Mr.Clutch or The Big O should advance and continue to move higher on the list. Put the players name you are voting for in BOLD so I don't miss it when I tally. The loser of this poll will be ranked #5 in our project.

Only members listed on the project roster will have their votes counted. Anyone may add their opinion and or argument as long as it's constructive. Our roster is now finalized. If you like the project and think you can make it better please add your opinion. If you'd like to join in the forwards, centers or all-time top 67 project, please let GOAT know via PM. The Final Roster is listed below....

The Roster

L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
WillC
G.O.A.T
1987 Lakers
neyca
Toizumi
Shaqattack3234
Magnax1
RobertdeMeijer
nycelt84
KGMN
SteveNashMVPcro

Crossover (added after initial vote)
bizil (added after initial vote)
Boston C's (added at #20)
Gotterdammerung (added at #17)
SuperPippen (added at #14)
Big164 (added at #13)
Droid101 (added at #11)
D.J. (added at #11)
Miller for 3 (added at #10)
Odinn (added at #9)
OmniStrife (added at #9)
HylianNightmare (added at #9)
Pushxx (added at #9)
MasterDurant24 (added at #9)
Clippersfan86 (added at #9)

ThaRegul8r (contributor)
NugzHeat3 (contributor)
Psileas (contributor)
alexandreben (contributor)
EricForman (contributor)


http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/wp-content/uploads/2009/thelogo.jpg

14 seasons
12x all-NBA
5x All-defensive(all D teams started in his 9th season)
14x all-star
1x ASG MVP
1x NBA Champion
1969 Finals MVP
Top 6 in Field goal percentage 3 times and top 6 in TS% 8 seasons in a row
1x Assists leader(top 3 in 2 seasons)
1x scoring leader(top three in 5 seasons)
28.5-7-6 averages over 11 year prime
29/6/6 career average in the playoffs


Or


http://nballin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/oscar-robertson-trophy.jpg


14 seasons
11x all-NBA
1X NBA MVP(top 3 5 seasons in a row)
12x all-star
3x ASG MVP
1x NBA Champion
7x Assists leader(top 2 in 9 straight seasons)
1x scoring leader(top three in 5 seasons)
2X NBA FT percentage leader
Top 4 in Field goal percentage 4 times and top 3 in TS% ten seasons in a row
29-10-8 averages over 10 year prime
22/9/7 career average in the playoffs


Final vote:


I believe its West by a final vote of 13-8

L.Kizzle - Oscar
ThaSwagg3r - West
Rose - Chose not to vote
WillC - Oscar
1987 Lakers - West
neyca - West
Toizumi - Oscar
Shaqattack3234 - Jerry West
Magnax1 - Oscar
nycelt84 - West
KGMN - Oscar
SteveNashMVPcro - West
Boston C's - West
Gotterdammerung - Oscar
SuperPippen - West
Droid101 - West
D.J. - Oscar
Miller for 3 - West
Odinn - West
HylianNightmare - West
MasterDurant24 - Oscar
Clippersfan86 - West

[L.Kizzle]

Now this is a BATTLE.

Oscar was better his first seasons, West better later in their career. They were about even in the middle years.

[Kblaze8855]

Hardest vote so far to me.

Ive felt strongly one way or the other about almost every vote till now.

On one hand....

Oscar was by most sources I can find considered the best guard of all time by like 1962. Early in his career the Lakers told Jerry that if they could get Oscar for him he was gone. So it seems the general belief was that Oscar was better. I saw Frank Ramsey say that as of 1960 Oscar was the best player who ever played the game. This is a guy who played with Russell and Cousy and against Wilt. Ranking Oscar as the GOAT. In his first season.

But...

Ive heard from Oscars teammates that he was a dick and if you missed a shot after he passed it to you he might not give you the ball again. But ive heard nothing but praise towards Jerry from everyone. By most accounts he was an outstanding defender and clutch player and it wasnt his fault his teams lost in the finals like 7 times in a row.

And I believe that last part. When you watch young Jerry and Elgin it feels like they are so far ahead of their times. Its like they are the only ones out there with real jumpers at times(and Dick Barnett who was nice in every game ive seen of his). Its hard to imagine that they didnt win it all 4-5 times. And they came SO close. A single jumper cost them one of the finals.

Its hard to rank a guy over someone else for clutchness when they lose like 4-5 game 7s for the title....but with Jerry? Eh.

For once im gonna have to think about it. I have no clear answer.

[L.Kizzle]

Hardest vote so far to me.

Ive felt strongly one way or the other about almost every vote till now.

On one hand....

Oscar was by most sources I can find considered the best guard of all time by like 1962. Early in his career the Lakers told Jerry that if they could get Oscar for him he was gone. So it seems the general belief was that Oscar was better. I saw Frank Ramsey say that as of 1960 Oscar was the best player who ever played the game. This is a guy who played with Russell and Cousy and against Wilt. Ranking Oscar as the GOAT. In his first season.

But...

Ive heard from Oscars teammates that he was a dick and if you missed a shot after he passed it to you he might not give you the ball again. But ive heard nothing but praise towards Jerry from everyone. By most accounts he was an outstanding defender and clutch player and it wasnt his fault his teams lost in the finals like 7 times in a row.

And I believe that last part. When you watch young Jerry and Elgin it feels like they are so far ahead of their times. Its like they are the only ones out there with real jumpers at times(and Dirk Barnett who was nice in every game ive seen of his). Its hard to imagine that they didnt win it all 4-5 times. And they came SO close. A single jumper cost them one of the finals.

Its hard to rank a guy over someone else for clutchness when they lose like 4-5 game 7s for the title....but with Jerry? Eh.

For once im gonna have to think about it. I have no clear answer.
If they had just one more mid-tier star, they'd have chips. All the other tops teams back then had nice bunch of guys. If Elgin and West had, say a Baily Howell who wasn't first and probably not a second tier star back then, I think they win a few titles.

[magnax1]

I have Oscar Ranked over West, mostly because it seems like everyone agreed that Oscar was better until West went on to win in the 70s. I think KBlaze was right about his attitude though. Lots of people who watched them both compare Jordan to Oscar in terms of the way they acted, which isn't exactly a compliment to Oscar.
One of the biggest reasons I'd take Oscar, is Bill Russell, one of the few people close to the game who's opinion I feel I can take seriously said Oscar was the greatest player he ever played against. Which surprised me a ton. I would've thought he'd say Elgin or Wilt.
People seem to complain about the fact that Oscar didn't win, but I think the only reason to take West over Oscar is longevity. I'm not saying it isn't close, because I do feel it is, but going of the little game footage, and what people say (I think West himself even said Oscar got the better of him his first few years) it's pretty obvious Oscar was better at his best.
Oscar

[necya]

tough one for sure.
oscar was very talended with a great body. he could do whatever he wanted and he knew that very well. i loved the way he participated to the rebound. but i have an issue with his general mind, when you watched the bucks, the dude could lead 3 straight offenses without giving the ball to his teammates. and i hate this kind of behaviour. in a way, he humiliated his teammates imo. even when you are the man, you have to play with 4 other players. a thing Oscar struggled with like Kobe. But what an increble complete player.

West was just as amazing to watch, but in a very different way. his jumshot was as beautiful as efficient. he also felt the game incredibly well.
i have always prefered West as Elgin. Baylor shot the ball too much for my tastes.

MJ
West
Oscar
Kobe
with slim margins for the last 3.

edit : my bad, there is another MJ at 2 !

[D.J.]

Very, VERY close. Both scored a similar amount of points, though West was the better shooter. West also has All-Defensive nominations. But Oscar did average a triple-double. He was also the better rebounder, provided more mismatches because he was a 6'5" guy playing the point, as opposed to 6'2" West. Oscar also had postseasons averaging 29/11/11, 32/13/9, 29/9/8, 28/12/5, 32/8/7+, and 25/11/4. We're basically talking Jason Kidd with the ability to score.

Oscar Robertson, but only by a hair.

[catch24]

Robertson by the slighest of margins




MJ
West
Oscar
Kobe
with slim margins for the last 3.

What's up necya? I know for most, the combination of accolades, peak play, longevity, and impact go into these type of rankings...and in this case, most people have Kobe ranked above those two. Why do you see it the other way around? Just curious.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This is tough. It seems like most at the time thought that Oscar was better.

From what I've seen, West seemed quicker and had a better looking jumper with more range while Oscar was bigger and seemed to consistently exploit his strength advantage and post up and their scoring numbers ended up pretty similar in terms of points and efficiency. Based on everything I've seen and heard, Oscar was the better passer, though West did lead the league in assists as well.

I haven't heard much said about Oscar's defense, but West started making all-defensive first teams as soon as the award was created and I've heard his defense praised quite a bit.

I've also heard West's clutch play praised a lot more, and it does seem like he was a better playoff performer.

And as KBlaze mentioned, some of Oscar's teammates have said some negative things about him as a teammate and I've yet to hear anything like that said about West.

Then there's team success.

Oscar's teams really didn't accomplish all that much in Cincinnati winning 50 games just once, winning a total of 2 playoff series, never playing in the finals and missing the playoffs 4 times in 10 seasons there.

West did have a better situation with Elgin Baylor as the Lakers best player in his early seasons, and the Royals best team lost to arguably the best Celtics team in '64, and lost to Boston again in '66 as well as '63. So the team that was beating West's teams in the finals was in the way of Oscar getting there.

But there are many other years where Boston wasn't why he wasn't winning titles since they only accounted for half of Cincinnati's playoff defeats and of course, there were the 4 years when they missed the playoffs. Though in 1968 for example, it's tough to blame him considering the Royals were 36-29 with him and 3-14 without him.

Oscar also won MVP over Russell and Chamberlain in their primes, a very rare feat because from 1960-1968, Russell and Chamberlain won every other MVP award.

As far as the championships they won. Oscar did join a team that had gone 55-27 the previous year and had the best player in the game and with Kareem and Bob Dandridge entering their second years, they were bound to improve(and they did). But Milwaukee was very dominant winning 66 games and winning by an average of 12.3 ppg.

But the following season, West had a bigger role as the number 1 option on a championship team that won a record 33 games in a row and 69 games overall which was a record at the time(they were 67-10 when West played).

But I wouldn't call West the best player on that team either and Oscar performed better during the playoffs the previous year than West did in the '72 playoffs. But that's made up for by 1969 when West played more than well enough to win a title becoming the only Finals MVP on a losing team.

It's close, but team success tips it in West's favor. When I think about it, there are some other players who don't get into top 10 discussions like West and Oscar do that I can't see a reason to rank Oscar over, though I can see a reason to Rank West over.

So to be clear, I vote for Jerry West.

[tontoz]

West got past Kobe? Wow

Funny thing looking at Oscar's numbers the thing that really jumps out is how many minutes he played. His career average was 42 minutes per game. One year he played 46 minutes per game. :eek:

[KGMN]

West got past Kobe? Wow

Funny thing looking at Oscar's numbers the thing that really jumps out is how many minutes he played. His career average was 42 minutes per game. One year he played 46 minutes per game. :eek:

I don't think we got to Kobe yet...

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe is up against whoever wins this. You can guess the last 2

[L.Kizzle]

Kobe is up against whoever wins this. You can guess the last 2
Fat Lever and Terrell Brandon?? :confusedshrug:

[SuperPippen]

Gonna write a long, rambling turd of text on why I personally think Jerry West was so good, and why I think he deserves to win this particular argument. I invite you to read it, if you like.

No disrespect towards Oscar, but based on all the footage I’ve seen, Jerry’s game impressed me more than Oscar’s did. Granted, many people say that Oscar’s best years came in the early 60’s, and really the only footage from that era that exists is of NBA Finals games.

So, it’s not like there was a wealth of footage for me to watch of Oscar in his prime. Jerry West was still going strong into the early 70’s (the first days of color, in more ways than one), and there is still comparatively more footage for one to watch of Jerry in the early 70’s - still at the top of his game, for the most part - than there is of Oscar during his Bucks years. So, again, it’s not like there’s enough footage available for someone to make a clear, definitive judgment oh who was better based purely on film alone. Still, I think I’m going to have to go with Jerry West in this debate.

I’ve seen many people here say that Jerry West was too short or too unathletic to excel (or even just compete, as ridiculous as that is) in today’s league. Untrue. West was, back in the 60’s, listed at 6’2”. To be more precise, he was reportedly measured at right about 6’”2.75. Depending upon the source, you’ll see West listed at either 6’2” or 6’3”. However, back in West’s era of the NBA, a player’s listed height was the height he was measured in while wearing ONLY socks, without any shoes. This is in contrast to the listed heights of players in the NBA today, which are measured with the players’ shoes on, and on top of that, an extra inch is often added to a player’s actual height.

And in West’s era, players wore the relatively thin-soled, rudimentary Chuck Taylors, which are a far-cry from the thick, cushioned, more “high-tech” shoes that players wear today. So, if West played today, his height would be listed as a good 6’4”, so he’d be as tall as guys like Jason Kidd and just a tad shorter than Dwyane Wade.

Furthermore, West had a pretty damn huge wingspan. There are reports and claims of him having the exact same sleeve measurements – around 39 inches - of Wilt Chamberlain, who, at 7’2” was a foot taller than West was. So, West’s wingspan was generally purported to have been around 6’9”, or 81 inches, which is pretty freaking huge, especially for someone of his height. In his era, West’s wingspan stood out as freakishly long. It’s still a hell of a lot longer than the wingspan of the vast majority of the people you’ll see today. And even in the modern era of black, athletic freaks of nature at the guard position with jaw-dropping physical proportions like Derrick Rose, Eric Gordon, John Wall, Russell Westbrook, etc., Jerry West’s height is comparable (and sometimes even longer) to many of theirs and his wingspan is still very impressive. His body definitely would not stop him from competing in today’s NBA

Athletically, West was no slouch. He certainly was no Derrick Rose in terms of explosiveness or vertical, but he was still relatively quick (especially in the open court, where he was practically a blur with or without the ball in his hands) and had some good, historically underrated hops (in college, he averaged 16 boards per game, and was top 10 in the nation in rebounding). The flashy, above the rim style of play was discouraged when West was in the league, but he was still capable of attacking the basket and finishing at the rim with the best of them.

Laterally, he was impressively speedy, which was part of the reason he was such an effective defender, and he had amazingly quick hands (just check out his jumpshot). Something else to note is that it’s not like West was scoring on scrubs or crappy athletes; he went up against teams with guys like K.C. Jones, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Al Attles, Walt Frazier, etc. – basically guys who were his equals or superior to him in terms of height and athleticism, and who also have a reputation for having been fantastic defenders – and no one could really stop him.

Now I’m not sure if I personally believe this next bit, but knowledgable people who have seen both Jerry West and guys like Kobe Bryant play, and who’ve compared their athleticism, have said that Jerry West was a better athlete. I’m talking about guys like Ernie Vandeweghe, Rod Hundley, Chick Hearn, Elliot Kalb. Take from that what you will, but that has to be worth something.

In terms of stamina and toughness, West was in a league of his own. For his entire 14 year NBA career, West averaged nearly 40 MPG. And keep in mind, the league during his time played at a much higher pace than the modern NBA, and players would frequently sprint up and down the court and change posessions multiple times, sometimes in the span of less than a minute. Also, the league during West’s era played with a physicality that would make the pansies that inhabit today’s NBA wet their pants (Chris Bosh, anyone?) Players routinely got creamed, clobbered, crushed, etc. Nobody moreso than West, who, in spite of all the physical adversity that he faced, would put his nose to the grindstone, drive to the basket, and could always be trusted to go hard for that bucket .As a testament to this, he made a still-standing record 840 FT’s during the ’66 NBA season. NOBODY took a lickin’ and kept on tickin’ like Jerry West.

In today’s NBA, where a defender accidentally grazing you with the tip of his d*ck earns you a trip to the line, he would be right at the top of the league in FT attempts, and he would still be one of the best at attacking the rim.

With respect to guys like Jordan and Iverson, it would not be a stretch to say that West was the toughest guard, both physically and mentally, in league history. Physically, he was aggressive and willful, frequently played through injuries, and was never afraid to put his body in harm’s way, as I’ve already explained. Mentally, he was a competitor in every sense of the word (you could call him the anti-LeBron James in this respect, lol). He famously raised his game in the clutch, he always went as hard as he could for the victory, he was a perfectionist, and in spite of the fact that he took so many blows (again, both physically and mentally) during his career, he almost always got back up and kept on truckin’. He came so close to the championship so many times, but, unfortunately for him, Bill Russell and the Celtics or Willis Reed and the Knicks usually had something to say about that.

But, he never quit on his team until, at age 36, he felt it was time to retire. Every year he’d be back again and working harder than ever to finally earn that elusive championship. If you follow and read about West’s career, you’ll notice how, through high school, college, and the pros, almost all of the aspects of his game kept improving, both fundamentally and statistically, as time went on. He worked his ass off. And, of course, all of that hard work eventually paid off during the ’72 NBA season.

West as a player was very skilled, a fantastic scorer, had good fundamentals, a great work ethic, could attack the rim, could finish - although he was better at finishing with his right hand than he was with his left (but almost everyone is) - , could create his own shot going left OR right and stop on a dime for a great pull-up jumper, could post up and shoot a fadeaway, was a very capable ballhandler (even if he wasn’t capable of being a flashy dribbler) and playmaker, was a tenacious man-to-man defender who was a great ballhawk and fantastic at using his long wingspan to deflect passes for steals, and he possessed one of the best jumpshots and pull-up shots in league history. He turned the pull-up into a weapon and artform that’s, IMO, comparable to Kareem’s sky-hook, when speaking about a shot’s reliability and consistency. He would look he was planning on finishing or drawling a foul and then would suddenly stop on dime and quickly launch an accurate shot before most defenders could even react.

He was launching shots from 3-point range before anyone else even thought to venture out that far from the basket. He’s fifth all time in career PPG, his efficiency was extremely impressive for most players of his era, and remains impressive for any perimeter scorer today. He was just as good when the competition was at its best and when the game was on the line, which is why many dubbed him, “Mr. Clutch.” He holds the record for most points averaged over a playoffs. If he played today, there’s little doubt in my mind that he would be an All-Star. He was that good.

(Continued on second page of thread)

[KevinNYC]

http://nballin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/oscar-robertson-trophy.jpg

If anyone is on the fence, I've always thought that this was one of the best photos in NBA history.

[SuperPippen]

Continued...

I

[Legends66NBA7]

Kobe is up against whoever wins this. You can guess the last 2

Yup, MJ and MJ.

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=SuperPippen]Continued...

I

[L.Kizzle]

Yup, MJ and MJ.
Mark Jackson and Mike James?

[SuperPippen]

:lol

Forgive me for the jLauber-like wall of text.

[RRR3]

Mark Jackson and Mike James?
Nah, Marko Jaric and Mervin Jackson.

[necya]

Robertson by the slighest of margins



What's up necya? I know for most, the combination of accolades, peak play, longevity, and impact go into these type of rankings...and in this case, most people have Kobe ranked above those two. Why do you see it the other way around? Just curious.

Hey W.

yeah i know, i personnally don't take into account accolades, longevity or stats. titles happen with time, team work and good management.
you can't blame a player who doesn't have the same teammates or coach than another player. it depends of so much things. that's why i don't see the goal to rank players by their career achievements.

i judge the players on how they fulfill their role with the team they have (bad, good or championship caliber) in their own era.

got the games btw ?

[Clippersfan86]

Jerry West. I used to overrate the sh** out of Big O going purely by stats but on intangibles West creams Oscar.

[L.Kizzle]

Nah, Marko Jaric and Mervin Jackson.
Who is Mervin Jackson, didn't he play guitar in the Jackson 5?? :lol

[Legends66NBA7]

Mark Jackson and Mike James?

Obviously, because their both ex-Toronto Raptors. Got to go with my homer picks.

It was cool to see that one year for Mike James though:

05-06
20.3ppg 3.3reb 5.8ast 0.9stl 0.0blk 46.9%fg 44.2%3pt 83.7%ft

Oh well, maybe in another rankings :P

[Legends66NBA7]

SuperPippen with an excellent breakdown on Mr. West.

[HylianNightmare]

Jerry West


but i thought that this round was gonna be west and kobe

[Legends66NBA7]

Jerry West


but i thought that this round was gonna be west and kobe

Next one for sure will have Kobe. Who wins this battle will come down to the wire.

[iamgine]

[QUOTE]In terms of stamina and toughness, West was in a league of his own. For his entire 14 year NBA career, West averaged nearly 40 MPG. And keep in mind, the league during his time played at a much higher pace than the modern NBA, and players would frequently sprint up and down the court and change posessions multiple times, sometimes in the span of less than a minute. Also, the league during West

[L.Kizzle]

Oscar by the slightest of margins.

[catch24]

got the games btw ?

I don't, sorry dude. I'll email you if I do though.

[1987_Lakers]

It is true that Oscar was the better player earlier in their careers while West was better in their later years and in terms of peak play, Oscar might be better, but you can't ignore the fact that Jerry West had SUPERIOR team success. Oscar as the alpha dog on his team only had one 50+ win season and got eliminated in the postseason pretty early year after year, he wasn't well liked by his teammates which I think is very important, and his numbers slightly dropped in the postseason. West was considered a great playoff performer and had a reputation for being clutch, he was a better defender, & had more range. Yes, Oscar Robertson was the better player at their peaks, but West's edge in longevity and his big edge in team success is the reason why I vote for him.

Jerry West

[L.Kizzle]

It is true that Oscar was the better player earlier in their careers while West was better in their later years and in terms of peak play, Oscar might be better, but you can't ignore the fact that Jerry West had SUPERIOR team success. Oscar as the alpha dog on his team only had one 50+ win season and got eliminated in the postseason pretty early year after year, he wasn't well liked by his teammates which I think is very important, and his numbers slightly dropped in the postseason. West was considered a great playoff performer and had a reputation for being clutch, he was a better defender, & had more range. Yes, Oscar Robertson was the better player at their peaks, but West's edge in longevity and his big edge in team success is the reason why I vote for him.

Jerry West
Team success, he had Elgin Baylor (who can be considered better than both) as the best player on his team until maybe 65 or 66. Oscar was the team . Jerry Lucas is a hall of famer but clearly a tier or two below West and Oscar.

He also played in the West, they were the team to beat in the West. The Hawks put up a fight every now and then.

Oscar was in the same division as the Celtics, Nationals and Warriors.

[Boston C's]

I'm going with Jerry West here but by the slightest of margins... cant go wrong with either choice if you ask me

[Droid101]

I'm going with Jerry West here but by the slightest of margins... cant go wrong with either choice if you ask me
Yeah, this is just so damned close. But I'm going with the 4th best Laker of them all, Jerry West.

[1987_Lakers]

Team success, he had Elgin Baylor (who can be considered better than both) as the best player on his team until maybe 65 or 66. Oscar was the team . Jerry Lucas is a hall of famer but clearly a tier or two below West and Oscar.

He also played in the West, they were the team to beat in the West. The Hawks put up a fight every now and then.

Oscar was in the same division as the Celtics, Nationals and Warriors.

I put some of the blame on Oscar for not having good team success, West did have more talent around him, but Oscar had very good teammates as well like Lucas/Twyman/Embry. West elevated his game in the postseason, Oscar didn't. I believe Oscar's bad relationship with his teammates is the reason why the Royals always underachieved/fell short numerous times.

[jlip]

I'm not participating in this project. So my vote doesn't count, but I do find this statement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-f_gVh9h9Q&feature=related#t=5m58s)by Bill Russell to be relevant to the discussion.

Also, Oscar has 9 top 5 MVP finishes which actually includes winning in '64. He was the only guard to win MVP before Magic in '87 I think. West has 8 top 5 finishes.

According to this article (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=WsNFAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tb0MAAAAIBAJ&pg=5875,4760286&dq=bill+russell+voted+player+of+the+decade+1970&hl=en) which discussed a 1970 AP vote for the best players of the decade West finished one place ahead of Oscar.

Interestingly though, in 2000, The National Association of Basketball Coaches voted Big O "Player of the Century."
http://www.orchemcorp.com/Company-Profile/Management-Team/Oscar-Robertson-65.html

http://www.thebigo.com/AboutOscarRobertson/biography.php

Despite this info, I don't know whom I would vote for though. Oscar vs. West is more difficult than Magic vs. Bird to me.

[L.Kizzle]

I put some of the blame on Oscar for not having good team success, West did have more talent around him, but Oscar had very good teammates as well like Lucas/Twyman/Embry. West elevated his game in the postseason, Oscar didn't. I believe Oscar's bad relationship with his teammates is the reason why the Royals always underachieved/fell short numerous times.
Yeah, those are very good teammates, but no Elgin Baylor. And you should look deep into Oscar life to find out his relationship's with his teammates and why it was.

And also, you gotta look deeper into the East as to why he didn't have as much success as the Lakers. The East was considered the better division.

[Gotterdammerung]

Solid responses, much better than the previous one. I think it's a photo-finish pick, and you can't go wrong with either one.

Oscar was just as versatile as Magic, and almost as powerful. His transcendental talents encompasses the entire scope & possibilities of the game of basketball.

He did everything at the highest level.

Rebound. Pass. Set picks. Dribble. Box out. Run. Play shutdown D.

Oscar understood every principle & nuance of the game. This is why he demanded the same from his teammates -- all too mortal, too frail, too flawed, too mentally weak. Robertson was too fierce, too ruthless a competitor.

His weaknesses? No 3 point range -- likely because there was no 3 point line in the 60s. Didn't fly and sky like the more athletic dunkers, but much of that could be credited to the anti-dunk prejudices of the time.

Jerry West is probably the better shooter, and the better ball-thief, but I'll go with the most fundamentally sound basketball player in the history of the game.

Oscar. :cheers:

[Rose]

I'm not voting since I know next to nothing of this era, but...

Holy shit SuperPippen's info, and wall of text.:applause: :bowdown:

[ThaRegul8r]

Oscar also won MVP over Russell and Chamberlain in their primes, a very rare feat because from 1960-1968, Russell and Chamberlain won every other MVP award.

Not to take anything away from Oscar's season at all, but there's also a little known story about the 1964 MVP voting that I feel fairly comfortable that no one else outside myself probably knows.

[ThaRegul8r]

Jerry West: [I]Oscar Robertson is the single most talented man I

[Kblaze8855]

Jerry West probably had the best and most fair comparison made between the two. Always nice to hear from the subject.

[Clippersfan86]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Jerry West: [I]Oscar Robertson is the single most talented man I

[ShaqAttack3234]

Not to take anything away from Oscar's season at all, but there's also a little known story about the 1964 MVP voting that I feel fairly comfortable that no one else outside myself probably knows.

Yeah, I don't know what you're referring to, but I'd love to hear the story.

[QUOTE=]Jerry West: [I]Oscar Robertson is the single most talented man I

[tontoz]

I don't think we got to Kobe yet...


:oldlol: I got the threads confused. I was thinking of the West vs Kobe thread outside the project.

[NugzHeat3]

Oscar seems to be underrated these days and I'd say most considered him a better player than West. He seems to have had a rep as the best all around player in the league in the 60s.

I don't think he had the teams to win, either. They were 3-14 without him in 1968 and 4-9 without him in 1970. That tells me Oscar was filling in a lot of gaps on that team and contributing in different ways. He was also losing to Wilt and Russell in the years he was making the playoffs. Really not a problem with that because nobody ranks him above them.

Taking your primary scorer, ball handler and playmaker out will definitely result in your team taking a hit. I don't think they adequate back ups either.

There were a few guys saying Oscar was a selfish player and dominated the ball too much but I think he did a good job adjusting his game in Milwaukee. Put pressure on the defense and gave them another guy to create offense with his penetration. He seems like a solid defender by all accounts as well. Certainly, I couldn't find anything negative said about his defense.

Oscar also seems more of a revolutionary player.

I think West has an edge as a pure shooter; certainly had more range. I would assume he had better defense as well certainly on a help and team scale. He was getting 2.6 spg and 0.7 bpg as a 35 year old playing 31.2 mpg. About the steals though, it would definitely be easier to strip someone straight up because of the tight rules about palming and ball handling wasn't exactly top notch back then.

There's also contemporary opinion. Guys like Russell and Wilt spoke highly of him. Pistol Pete and Kareem have called Oscar the greatest player ever.

I'd rather chill with West though. Oscar is a insecure prick.

[NugzHeat3]

Everybody should watch this game. Good match up between Oscar and West. Its the famous game where the Bucks break the Lakers 33 game winning streak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATdV8e8ZUlc&feature=channel_video_title

[jlip]

West vs. Robertson rivalry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLJXqmBos9g) snippet

[Crown&Coke]

Its a push...

This is one of the best NBA 2-guard rivalries ever in the NBA. This is the top two guards in the NBA, in their primes, at the top of their games, going at it. Too bad they only played one another a handful of times, and never for the biggest prize. They barely missed playing each other for the National Title one year (and I don't think they even played against one another in College)

I have a hard time chosing, The Big O did everything. Scored, rebounded, was a playmaker. Only thing he didn't do consistently was defend.

The Logo did everything the Big O did, minus the insane rebounding since Elgin Baylor and then Wilt sucked up 20 boards a game, and West played terrific defense.

If we take into account what Robertson did for free agency, but thats not on court.

As a Lakers fan, I chose West. But as a bball fan, I think I still chose West because he came to play everygame, every possession. But Robertson has always been a true hero of mine, and it has very little to do with his bball. He changed the way all bball players were treated (and compensated), I think that is his beef with MJ. MJ looked out for himself, The Big O thought a black man of his stature, should try to do for all.

[Crown&Coke]

If anyone is on the fence, I've always thought that this was one of the best photos in NBA history.

That is the GOAT NCAA picture. That was taken when Oscar was at Cincinnati.

[Psileas]

Early on their basketball careers, it was Oscar and it wasn't that close, either. Oscar was a born marvel, West was, like Bird, a hard worker. Not that he didn't have talent, but I'd say he needed more work than Oscar to become the complete player he did. Hell, Oscar posted 4 triple doubles in his first 5 career NBA games, while West had some games with less than 10 points...

Overall in their careers, West was a complete player in the same sense with Jordan: Being tough and relentless in both offense and defense, as well as a mega-clutch scorer and player. He was more of a shooter, but he had no problems penetrating, thanks to his great speed (think of Ginobili, but much more impactful). Oscar was a complete player in the same sense with Magic: A floor general, who could play in (what we call today) multiple positions, could fill a box-score like crazy and had an underrated clutch game that (unlike Magic, this time), his team didn't help him exploit.

Therefore, though both played great in the playoffs, only West's heroics are somewhat well-known. Was it Oscar's fault? Well, as long as your team has Wayne Embry as the starting center, they start with a minus. Embry was a good offensive player, but neither a very capable defender against quick centers nor a very strong rebounder (though Lucas was). Wilt killed the Royals almost every time he faced them and Russell was posting crazy rebounding and blocking numbers against them, without having a problem to score when needed.

Oscar did get heavier quicker than West though. Yes, part of it was Kareem's arrival and his bball IQ remained very high, but you could see that he wasn't moving very comfortably late on in his career. There is, btw, another category where Oscar is underappreciated or, at least, not remembered for: He got injured a lot, especially late in his career. However, West, like Iverson, also got injured a lot (there's a reason his nose was like that) and still performed better under these circumstances.

My take is that, year-by-year, between these two, the best season belonged to:

'61: Oscar
'62: Oscar
'63: Oscar
'64: Oscar
'65: West
'66: West
'67: Oscar
'68: West (Oscar had the better r.s)
'69: West (Oscar had the better r.s)
'70: West
'71: Oscar (West had the better r.s)
'72: West
'73: West
'74: Oscar (West was better, but got injured way too often)

Scores: 7-7
With parentheses taken into account: 7-7
:facepalm
Maybe things would change if I could add stars (1-5) for every single season, but I'll leave it for later.

F it, I'll take Oscar for now. I always put value on the contributions of a player to the game's progress (being revolutionary), and I think Oscar gets this one.

Things would be easier if whole careers were considered. Oscar is probably top-5 in both H.S and NCAA and arguably top-10 in the NBA, as well. Also, he was the #1 contributor for the 1960 Olympic Team, with West and Lucas fighting for #2.

[Odinn]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Jerry West: [I]Oscar Robertson is the single most talented man I

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Jerry West

[Psileas]

Not to take anything away from Oscar's season at all, but there's also a little known story about the 1964 MVP voting that I feel fairly comfortable that no one else outside myself probably knows.

I don't know what story you're talking about, but, as a sidenote, the Royals seemed like they had the Celtics' number in 1964. They beat them 7 times in the regular season and also lost a couple of close games, as well, so the Celtics had been 54-14 against the rest of the league and 5-7 vs Cincy. Oscar had some huge games on his own. But in the playoffs, things changed, and the Celtics, who managed to keep Oscar somewhat honest, took care of the series easily.

[Kblaze8855]

Things would be easier if whole careers were considered. Oscar is probably top-5 in both H.S and NCAA

Just a note..

Oscar Robertson was the leader of one of the powerhouse teams the team the movie Hoosiers is based on beat.

[WillC]

Oscar Robertson, but boy is it close.

[ThaSwagg3r]

I vote for Jerry West. He was higher in my top 25 ranking and I am sticking with it.

I feel like those who are voting for Robertson are doing it due to his sexy stats. Game goes beyond production.

[Miller for 3]

Jerry West because of longevity, defense, and clutch play. But its damn close

[Kblaze8855]

Oscar was more major in history than I feel a lot of people are aware of. And after his career hes done a lot business wise. He was the first Magic in more ways than one. hes the reason free agency exists....



Oscar Robertson served as President of the NBA Players Association from 1966-74. Putting his own career on the line, he filed suit on behalf of the NBAPA in 1970 to halt a merger of the NBA with the American Basketball Association until free agency issues could be resolved. The "Oscar Robertson Rule," enacted six years later via a legal settlement between the NBAPA and the NBA, paved the way for free agency and the lucrative salaries enjoyed by many of today's players. The Big O was also one of five founders of the National Basketball Retired Players Association and served as its president for many years.

Today Mr. Robertson is one of the nation's leading small business owners, with interests in document management services, banking, chemicals, processed foods, construction, and media.

Since his retirement, The Big O has been active as an entrepreneur, broadcaster and author, and also served briefly during the summer of 2004 as interim head basketball coach at his alma mater, University of Cincinnati. He and his wife Yvonne, who he wed in 1960, reside in Cincinnati and have three daughters, Shana, Tia and Mari. He serves as President of OR Solutions, Marlton, NJ, and Oscar Robertson Foods, Orchem Corporation, and Oscar Robertson & Associates, all based in Fairfield, OH. He is a board member of Countrywide Credit Industries and the Touchstone Family of Funds.

Mr. Robertson is involved in numerous charitable and community activities, including the NBA Legends Foundation, the Boys and Girls Club of New York, and the National Kidney Foundation, for whom he acts as an advocate for organ donation. Throughout and following his career, he has taught or mentored hundreds of youngsters on his own and through various youth organizations. In 2003 the University of Cincinnati awarded him its William Howard Taft Medal for notable achievement, the highest honor a UC alumnus can receive.



Little bit of "Cant knock the hustle" to him.

[pauk]

Oscar Robertson And Its Not Even Close To Being Debatable..........

[Math2]

Jerry West...it's not even CLOSE!

[Kblaze8855]

West has about 14 votes with Oscar well behind but not all of the votes so far count. I dont bother really looking into each person when this much time is left. Im thinking ill give it the full 48 and count them up tomorrow afternoon. Looking like West will win but hes not ahead by as much as he would be if only people on the list voted. It was like 14-8 in Wests favor and its probably really like 11-7. I'll count for real later. Kinda busy right now.

[jlip]

Oscar Robertson And Its Not Even Close To Being Debatable..........


Jerry West...it's not even CLOSE!

Somebody's wrong.

[KGMN]

Like SuperPippen, I'm going to base the majority of my vote off of the limited video I saw of each of the players. From what I saw, Oscar Robertson absolutely dominated, while Jerry West didn't impress me quite so much. I probably didn't get to see enough of West, but I think I've seen enough of him to get at least an impression of how he played like.

[MasterDurant24]

When Oscar retired, most people considered him to be the greatest guard ever and kept that belief for about 15 years, around the time Magic retired. And there were still some who believed that Oscar was still the greatest. Even Bill Russell said that's Oscar the greatest player he ever played against. West was a better shooter, a better winner(but Oscar was in the East and the Royals weren't getting past Boston), and likely a better clutch player(led the playoffs in scoring 4 times and assists three times, including 40 points per game once), but overall, from what i seen, Oscar Robertson is the more talented player.

[pauk]

Somebody's wrong.

and it aint me!

Oscar > Jerry

sorry dudes

[Gotterdammerung]

...overall, from what i seen, Oscar Robertson is the more talented player.
Correction:

Oscar was the more skilled - fundamentally sound player. He is slightly bigger & stronger, but that's almost moot as a transcendent player.

The difference is between peak and career. Peak-wise, it's Oscar. Career-wise, it's West (with the advantage of players like Baylor in his prime - and his entire career - and Wilt from 1968-1973). Oscar was better than West for their first 4 years. 65-68, even, more or less. West won the last 7 years.

Bill Simmons nailed the difference: West understood the secret better than Oscar.

The secret of basketball? It's not about basketball. Only the very greatest of greats grasp this, and only on occasion throughout their careers.

[Miller for 3]

and it aint me!

Oscar > Jerry

sorry dudes

Then why did the Royals only win 50+ games once, and missed the playoffs for 3 straight years despite having multiple HOFers?

[L.Kizzle]

Then why did the Royals only win 50+ games once, and missed the playoffs for 3 straight years despite having multiple HOFers?
Playing in the east. Was harder than the West. Also, Baylor >>>>>> Jerry Lucas.

[KevinNYC]

I'm not participating in this project. So my vote doesn't count, but I do find this statement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-f_gVh9h9Q&feature=related#t=5m58s)by Bill Russell to be relevant to the discussion.

That Bill Russell interview is amazing.

[L.Kizzle]

LOL at Jerry West killing this what 14-8. This is Jerry West vs. Oscar Robertson, not West vs. Dave Bing.



4. Oscar Robertson - 393 points
5. Jerry West - 379 points

You would think it would be close with O actually coming out on top in the polling results.

[RRR3]

LOL at Jerry West killing this what 14-8. This is Jerry West vs. Oscar Robertson, not West vs. Dave Bing.


You would think it would be close with O actually coming out on top in the polling results.
This board seems to think because The Big O gets compared to LeBron he should be hated too. :facepalm

[Kblaze8855]

Playing in the east. Was harder than the West. Also, Baylor >>>>>> Jerry Lucas.

Some years it was Oscar Jerry a third all star level player and a 4th guy who put up 16/10. And Jerry really I dont think should be getting overlooked. he was putting up 20/20 at times. Shooting great percentages despite taking a lot of outside shots(look up an article on Lucas called "Bombs away" from when he supposedly hit 9 of 11 shots from 25 feet or so in the first half in the playoffs). Several times the all NBA first team was Oscar and Jerry, baylor and Lucas, then Wilt or Russell whoever made it that year.

I dont think we should be selling hims short for Oscars sake. by all accounts he was one of the best players in the NBA.

[Kblaze8855]

LOL at Jerry West killing this what 14-8. This is Jerry West vs. Oscar Robertson, not West vs. Dave Bing.


You would think it would be close with O actually coming out on top in the polling results.

Even if West gets 15 votes that count im leaving it open the full 48 hours to try to get the most votes. With the top ones...this close...I feel we dont need to cut it short. West/Oscar and whoever/Kobe should be given the full time. After that nobody is beating Magic and Magic wont beat mike...but we will play it out anyway.

[nycelt84]

My vote goes to Jerry West.

[L.Kizzle]

Some years it was Oscar Jerry a third all star level player and a 4th guy who put up 16/10. And Jerry really I dont think should be getting overlooked. he was putting up 20/20 at times. Shooting great percentages despite taking a lot of outside shots(look up an article on Lucas called "Bombs away" from when he supposedly hit 9 of 11 shots from 25 feet or so in the first half in the playoffs). Several times the all NBA first team was Oscar and Jerry, baylor and Lucas, then Wilt or Russell whoever made it that year.

I dont think we should be selling hims short for Oscars sake. by all accounts he was one of the best players in the NBA.
Which is true, but Jerry (Lucas) was more on a 2nd option type player. Baylor and West were both 1st option scorers.

You'd get the same results if you switch Oscar to LA and put Jerry on the Royals. Actually, Oscar with the Royals might take a title in the early 60's considering that Robertson was above West their first few seasons in the league.

[Kblaze8855]

Which is true, but Jerry (Lucas) was more on a 2nd option type player. Baylor and West were both 1st option scorers.

You'd get the same results if you switch Oscar to LA and put Jerry on the Royals. Actually, Oscar with the Royals might take a title in the early 60's considering that Robertson was above West their first few seasons in the league.

I have to give some attention to the fact that ive heard from the mouths of players and teammates that Jerry was a better teammate dont I? How do I not factor that into the discussion on what they got out of their lineups?

ANd im not 100% sure it wasnt Lucas himself who mentioned it one time. Let me look int othat. Dont wanna slander anyone here if im wrong.......

[pauk]

I'm not participating in this project. So my vote doesn't count, but I do find this statement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-f_gVh9h9Q&feature=related#t=5m58s)by Bill Russell to be relevant to the discussion.


when the real GOAT calls only Oscar Robertson "The best basketball player i have ever seen".... gota mean something....


Oscar > Jerry

[Fatal9]

Which is true, but Jerry (Lucas) was more on a 2nd option type player. Baylor and West were both 1st option scorers.

That's not necessarily a good thing. Two first option players IMO (especially if both perimeter players who like to take a lot of shots) aren't as good as one first option player and a really good/great complementary player. Pecking order on offense sometimes is better because it defines everyone's roles.

I've found it interesting that the three best Laker seasons in the West/Baylor era ('61-'68), came when the other missed a significant portion of the season. '62, Baylor plays half the season. '63, West misses 25 games. '68, West misses 31 games. And these three seasons where the other "first option" missed the most number of games turned out to be the only seasons in that time span where Lakers won 50+ games.


What Jerry did in the playoffs also needs to be respected more in this thread. If we were looking at just regular seasons, I'd say Oscar but with the playoffs factored in (something I consider heavily), IMO it's West.

[SuperPippen]

That's not necessarily a good thing. Two first option players IMO (especially if both perimeter players who like to take a lot of shots) aren't as good as one first option player and a really good/great complementary player. Pecking order on offense sometimes is better because it defines everyone's roles.

I've found it interesting that the three best Laker seasons in the West/Baylor era ('61-'68), came when the other missed a significant portion of the season. '62, Baylor plays half the season. '63, West misses 25 games. '68, West misses 31 games. And these three seasons where the other "first option" missed the most number of games turned out to be the only seasons in that time span where Lakers won 50+ games.


What Jerry did in the playoffs also needs to be respected more in this thread. If we were looking at just regular seasons, I'd say Oscar but with the playoffs factored in (something I consider heavily), IMO it's West.

Well said. I very much agree with what's in bold.

[L.Kizzle]

That's not necessarily a good thing. Two first option players IMO (especially if both perimeter players who like to take a lot of shots) aren't as good as one first option player and a really good/great complementary player. Pecking order on offense sometimes is better because it defines everyone's roles.

I've found it interesting that the three best Laker seasons in the West/Baylor era ('61-'68), came when the other missed a significant portion of the season. '62, Baylor plays half the season. '63, West misses 25 games. '68, West misses 31 games. And these three seasons where the other "first option" missed the most number of games turned out to be the only seasons in that time span where Lakers won 50+ games.


What Jerry did in the playoffs also needs to be respected more in this thread. If we were looking at just regular seasons, I'd say Oscar but with the playoffs factored in (something I consider heavily), IMO it's West.
With West up 14-8 or whatever the tallies are, it seems to be respected. Oscar is the one gettin disrespected.

[Fatal9]

With West up 14-8 or whatever the tallies are, it seems to be respected. Oscar is the one gettin disrespected.
I only read first couple of pages earlier today, thought Oscar was still out in the lead. You're right though, that's a big difference for a comparison as close as this, but people usually value playoff performances a lot.

[Legends66NBA7]

Well said. I very much agree with what's in bold.

Which is why i posted all of his playoff performances in my thread of West vs Kobe. Just outstanding production by West.

[eliteballer]

Why did Wests stats remain high when both were in their 30's on contending teams while Oscar's dropped off significantly?

[L.Kizzle]

Why did Wests stats remain high when both were in their 30's on contending teams while Oscar's dropped off significantly?
He shot less.

He went from 18 his last season in Cincinnati to 11, his last in the league. 69-70, Oscar last season for the Royals, West too 22 shots and his last season 16.7. So West last season in the league, he was averaging basically one less fg attempt them O's last season in Ohio. He never shot over 15 shots with the Bucks but he easily could have. He was playing roughly the same minutes.

[eliteballer]

but...West maintained his efficiency on that higher volume while Oscars dropped.

[eliteballer]

I will mention this about Lucas. He was known as someone VERY concerned with his stats, to the point where he would go to the scorekeepers to make sure they had his stats right. Might have been to the detriment of the team at times...

[Kblaze8855]

Jerry Wests wife kept track of his stats at home games and let the score keepers know when they were off. Its in a book I was reading a while back. His wife was pretty major in his career. Its said she would intentionally piss him off before home games because he played better angry. Give him a shitty meal that morning. West was quoted saying she might make him a burger knowing he expected steak just to bug him so he would take it out on the other team. Somehow throw off his routine just to get him to have to rush and be annoyed. Good read really.

I believe I read that Jerry was pissed off about something the game he scored on Bill Sharman 7 straight possessions and got a punch thrown at him for it. Perhaps she made him leave home with blue balls...

[Legends66NBA7]

Jerry Wests wife kept track of his stats at home games and let the score keepers know when they were off. Its in a book I was reading a while back. His wife was pretty major in his career. Its said she would intentionally piss him off before home games because he played better angry. Give him a shitty meal that morning. West was quoted saying she might make him a burger knowing he expected steak just to bug him so he would take it out on the other team. Somehow throw off his routine just to get him to have to rush and be annoyed. Good read really.

I believe I read that Jerry was pissed off about something the game he scored on Bill Sharman 7 straight possessions and got a punch thrown at him for it. Perhaps she made him leave home with blue balls...

Hahaha... that's hilarious, but quiet the inspirational booster.

What is the book's name, Kblaze ?

[Kblaze8855]

http://www.amazon.com/Jerry-West-Life-Legend-Basketball/dp/0345510836


9 bucks used.

[Legends66NBA7]

http://www.amazon.com/Jerry-West-Life-Legend-Basketball/dp/0345510836


9 bucks used.

Oh, nice. Thank you.

[Toizumi]

Correction:

Oscar was the more skilled - fundamentally sound player. He is slightly bigger & stronger, but that's almost moot as a transcendent player.

The difference is between peak and career. Peak-wise, it's Oscar. Career-wise, it's West (with the advantage of players like Baylor in his prime - and his entire career - and Wilt from 1968-1973). Oscar was better than West for their first 4 years. 65-68, even, more or less. West won the last 7 years.

Bill Simmons nailed the difference: West understood the secret better than Oscar.

The secret of basketball? It's not about basketball. Only the very greatest of greats grasp this, and only on occasion throughout their careers.

Whatever one may think about Simmons and The Book of Basketball, I think that his theory on 'the secret of the game' is very well thought out, eventhough it is completely subjective and not based on anything as evident as stats/calculations, or even skillevel (although ranking a player's skills is also subjective).

IMO (from what I've heard/read/seen) Oscar was a better player than West. More skilled, talented, versatile, a better scorer and playmaker.
But West did more with less, in terms of (team)achievments.
Also, he has incredible playoff numbers. Being the playoffleader in scoring a couple of times.

This could really go eitherway. I pick Oscar


Jerry Wests wife kept track of his stats at home games and let the score keepers know when they were off. Its in a book I was reading a while back. His wife was pretty major in his career. Its said she would intentionally piss him off before home games because he played better angry. Give him a shitty meal that morning. West was quoted saying she might make him a burger knowing he expected steak just to bug him so he would take it out on the other team. Somehow throw off his routine just to get him to have to rush and be annoyed. Good read really.

I believe I read that Jerry was pissed off about something the game he scored on Bill Sharman 7 straight possessions and got a punch thrown at him for it. Perhaps she made him leave home with blue balls...

nice story :lol Just trolling here, but if Rasheed Wallace would've married a referee (or Slava Medvedenko) he would've been the GOAT (no homo).

[Kblaze8855]

Couple hours left to vote.

[Gotterdammerung]

Why won't u edit the OP to reflect the votes/voters?

This is the third thread u haven't done so.

[Kblaze8855]

Didnt occour to me. Ill do it later

[Kblaze8855]

I believe its West by a final vote of 13-8

L.Kizzle - Oscar
ThaSwagg3r - West
Rose - Chose not to vote
WillC - Oscar
1987 Lakers - West
neyca - West
Toizumi - Oscar
Shaqattack3234 - Jerry West
Magnax1 - Oscar
nycelt84 - West
KGMN - Oscar
SteveNashMVPcro - West
Boston C's - West
Gotterdammerung - Oscar
SuperPippen - West
Droid101 - West
D.J. - Oscar
Miller for 3 - West
Odinn - West
HylianNightmare - West
MasterDurant24 - Oscar
Clippersfan86 - West