Michael Jordan 1st threepeat finals vs 2nd threepeat finals

[iamgine]

1st threepeat finals

36ppg 59 TS%
6.6 Reb
7.9 Ast
2 Stl


2nd threepeat finals

31 ppg 53 TS%
5.4 Reb
4.2 Ast
1.6 Stl

This is like the difference between Lebron James and Danny Granger. Is it me or 2nd threepeat Jordan seemed sucky in comparison with his 1st threepeat self. :eek:

[gengiskhan]

Finally

ISH forumers are learning.

The only comparison to MJ is MJ & Copy Cryant should not even be mentioned in any MJ comparisons.

good thread BTW.

[EricForman]

1st threepeat finals

36ppg 59 TS%
6.6 Reb
7.9 Ast
2 Stl


2nd threepeat finals

31 ppg 53 TS%
5.4 Reb
4.2 Ast
1.6 Stl

This is like the difference between Lebron James and Danny Granger. Is it me or 2nd threepeat Jordan seemed sucky in comparison with his 1st threepeat self. :eek:

Check Jordan's age from 96 to 98. He was old by NBA standards.

[EricForman]

Finally

ISH forumers are learning.

The only comparison to MJ is MJ & Copy Cryant should not even be mentioned in any MJ comparisons.

good thread BTW.


Why you gotta go and start trash talking? If this turns into the usual sh*t Jordan vs Kobe troll thread, it'll be your fault this time.

[Miserio]

1st threepeat finals

36ppg 59 TS%
6.6 Reb
7.9 Ast
2 Stl


2nd threepeat finals

31 ppg 53 TS%
5.4 Reb
4.2 Ast
1.6 Stl

This is like the difference between Lebron James and Danny Granger. Is it me or 2nd threepeat Jordan seemed sucky in comparison with his 1st threepeat self. :eek:
He was more of a team player in the 2nd threepeat and didn't force things to score as much as he did in the first one.

[inclinerator]

2nd 3 peat jordan was a masterpiece.

[AlphaWolf24]

1st threepeat finals

36ppg 59 TS%
6.6 Reb
7.9 Ast
2 Stl


2nd threepeat finals

31 ppg 53 TS%
5.4 Reb
4.2 Ast
1.6 Stl

This is like the difference between Lebron James and Danny Granger. Is it me or 2nd threepeat Jordan seemed sucky in comparison with his 1st threepeat self. :eek:


Meh..





it all about..



17PPG 6AST 7REB 4TO

__________________________________________________ ___________

Oh just curious......since winning doesn't matter, I was wondering where MJ would rank if he put up those stats but LOST in the Finals everytime.....while choking.

where would you guys have him ranked....think about it.

[Doctor Rivers]

Why you gotta go and start trash talking? If this turns into the usual sh*t Jordan vs Kobe troll thread, it'll be your fault this time.

LOL

[OldSchoolBBall]

He was more of a team player in the 2nd threepeat and didn't force things to score as much as he did in the first one.

That's complete bullshit, frankly. The first three-peat team NEEDED him to score more, since they were less offensively potent outside of MJ than the second 3-peat team, and they were facing more potent offensive teams to boot. Pippen, for example, managed just 21 ppg/43% FG against the Suns in the '93 Finals. That's not going to get it done as a second option against high-octane offenses like Chicago faced in the Finals during the first three-peat. Hence, MJ had to score more and shouldered more responsibility offensively in general during the first three-peat as compared to the second.

This is not to say that he could have duplicated his first 3-peat performances at age 33-35 if called upon to do so, because he couldn't have.

[iamgine]

He was more of a team player in the 2nd threepeat and didn't force things to score as much as he did in the first one.
That's not true, at least in the finals where he practically took the same amount of shots as in his 1st threepeat finals.

[Sarcastic]

He played two different styles in them. Obviously Jordan as a slasher was better than Jordan as a mid range shooter.

[EricForman]

i know im in the minority but i really like watching videos of older skilled players like second threepeat Jordan and current Kobe, with their amazing footwork and clever use of pumpfakes.

Maybe because I've always lacked athleticism and explosiveness, but I admire being able to catch the ball, survey the scene, make two-three power dribbles, then pumpfake/create space/fadeaway for a bucket. When I see guys like Brandon Jennings in street games cross over 7 times 25 feet from the hoop before doing a move that has nothing to do with the previous crossovers, it's kidna annoying. I like that current Kobe and 98 Jordan, they need 4 seconds and 2-3 moves after catching the ball to do something. They look for the opening and then go for it.

And it's quite simple really once you've mastered the footwork and J: triple threat position, jab step one way, dribble the other, pump fake once or twice, elevate. All these kiddies wasting their damn energy crossing over.

[catch24]

He played two different styles in them. Obviously Jordan as a slasher was better than Jordan as a mid range shooter.

Jordan had a patented mid-range shot during the first threepeat as well.

[Da_Realist]

Maybe not 96, but

In 97, he hit a game winning shot to win Game 1. Almost had a triple double (38, 13 and 9 while shooting 55% from field) in Game 2. The stomach flu game was Game 5 (this may be his greatest game PERIOD when considering the circumstances). And he had the game winning assist to Steve Kerr to win the title in Chicago.

^^ That's a career defining series, folks. Only in MJ's case, that was his 4th best Finals. :eek:

In 98, came on strong near the end of the game to win Game 2. Helped his team win by 42 points in Game 3. Led his team to win Game 4 and lead the series 3-1. And with Scottie playing hurt, he played brilliantly down the stretch (shot, steal, shot) to steal the win on the road in Utah.

Some of the world's best players would kill to have 2 series like this under their resume. Sometimes the numbers get it wrong. Sometimes the numbers look better than the performances. It's the opposite in MJ's case for 97 and 98.

[Dragonyeuw]

i know im in the minority but i really like watching videos of older skilled players like second threepeat Jordan and current Kobe, with their amazing footwork and clever use of pumpfakes.

Maybe because I've always lacked athleticism and explosiveness, but I admire being able to catch the ball, survey the scene, make two-three power dribbles, then pumpfake/create space/fadeaway for a bucket. When I see guys like Brandon Jennings in street games cross over 7 times 25 feet from the hoop before doing a move that has nothing to do with the previous crossovers, it's kidna annoying. I like that current Kobe and 98 Jordan, they need 4 seconds and 2-3 moves after catching the ball to do something. They look for the opening and then go for it.

And it's quite simple really once you've mastered the footwork and J: triple threat position, jab step one way, dribble the other, pump fake once or twice, elevate. All these kiddies wasting their damn energy crossing over.

I'm with you. Over the years, I've actually come to appreciate the 30+ Jordan moreso than the younger one. He had mastered the mental aspects of the game to make up for decline in physical ability.

[Fade-away]

he was still great during the 2e threepeat but wasn't as dominant then during the first

[Asukal]

Both versions of Jordan were very very good but come on, 1st peat Jordan is in his prime therefore way better than 2nd peat Jordan.

[97 bulls]

N
Both versions of Jordan were very very good but come on, 1st peat Jordan is in his prime therefore way better than 2nd peat Jordan.
Not according to jordan. He said what he had lost in athleticism, he made up the slack with strength and wisdom.

[gengiskhan]

N
Not according to jordan. He said what he had lost in athleticism, he made up the slack with strength and wisdom.

Jordan talks lots of trash

not true at all.

B'ball by nature is extremely athletic sport. 40-50% of Bball purely relies on athleticism. nothing can ever make up for the loss of it due to aging. nothing.

[Sarcastic]

Jordan had a patented mid-range shot during the first threepeat as well.

Not nearly like the one he worked on after he came back in 1995 and worked on in the offseason before the start of the 1995/6 season. It became his go to move by the start of the 72-10 run.

[Asukal]

N
Not according to jordan. He said what he had lost in athleticism, he made up the slack with strength and wisdom.

So you by your logic, Jordan today would be able to dominate the league with just his wisdom? Not gonna happen bro. :D

[eliteballer]

Late 90's NBA style vs early 90's...

[97 bulls]

Late 90's NBA style vs early 90's...
This is true. The league had changed a lot.

[keep-itreal]

can someone post some video highlights of both 1st 3peat jordan and 2nd 3peat jordan?

[97 bulls]

Jordan talks lots of trash

not true at all.

B'ball by nature is extremely athletic sport. 40-50% of Bball purely relies on athleticism. nothing can ever make up for the loss of it due to aging. nothing.
Really? How do you explain larry bird? How did kevin love manage to lead the league in rebounds? There's been plenty of great players, whose game didn't revolve around athleticiism.

And jordan even in his mid 30s was still a tremendous athlete.

[jlip]

1st threepeat finals

36ppg 59 TS%
6.6 Reb
7.9 Ast
2 Stl


2nd threepeat finals

31 ppg 53 TS%
5.4 Reb
4.2 Ast
1.6 Stl

This is like the difference between Lebron James and Danny Granger. Is it me or 2nd threepeat Jordan seemed sucky in comparison with his 1st threepeat self. :eek:

The difference in MJ's Finals stats between the 1st and 2nd threepeats are not simply a function of MJ's abilities. We talking about a tale of two separate eras. During the 1st 3peat the Bulls avg. 104ppg on 50.2fg% in the Finals. During the 2nd 3peat the Bulls avg. 89.6ppg on 42.6fg% in the Finals. That's a -14.4 ppg and a -7.6fg% differential.

Pippen's stats are reflective of this also.
1st 3peat
20.9ppg 9.0rpg 7.3apg 45.6fg%

2nd 3peat
*17.1ppg 7.8rpg 4.5apg 39 fg%

*Yes I do know about Pippen's injuries during the 2nd 3peat.

[97 bulls]

The difference in MJ's Finals stats between the 1st and 2nd threepeats are not simply a function of MJ's abilities. We talking about a tale of two separate eras. During the 1st 3peat the Bulls avg. 104ppg on 50.2fg% in the Finals. During the 2nd 3peat the Bulls avg. 89.6ppg on 42.6fg% in the Finals. That's a -14.4 ppg and a -7.6fg% differential.

Pippen's stats are reflective of this also.
1st 3peat
20.9ppg 9.0rpg 7.3apg 45.6fg%

2nd 3peat
*17.1ppg 7.8rpg 4.5apg 39 fg%

*Yes I do know about Pippen's injuries during the 2nd 3peat.
But your correct. And as eliteballer stated, the league was different. There was a huge emphasis on defense and halfcourt offense.

[Jacks3]

NBA was terrible defensively in the 80's/early 90's. It's a well known fact.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Yeah, but the 2nd 3peat Jordan was almost as good as the first.

It's not really fair to compare the 2 though, the 2nd 3peat Jordan has was really old compared to the others, and he's out of his prime. A slight drop in statistics is expected.

[StarJordan]

NBA was terrible defensively in the 80's/early 90's. It's a well known fact.

Bad Boy Pistons
Anthony Mason Knicks

[Nevaeh]

2nd 3 peat jordan was a masterpiece.

Pretty much this. Even in NBA2k11 you can feel the difference. Where as 1st 3-peat Jordan was a One of A Kind talent, 2nd 3-Peat MJ was a more complete Basketball Player (Better Teammates helped that more than anything though).

[Doctor Rivers]

Pretty much this. Even in NBA2k11 you can feel the difference. Where as 1st 3-peat Jordan was a One of A Kind talent, 2nd 3-Peat MJ was a more complete Basketball Player (Better Teammates helped that more than anything though).

I'm curious...can you elaborate on this?

[bond10]

1. Age
2. He paced himself more.
3. After 94, the Bulls were pretty much a solid team so he didn't have to take on the same load every night.

[bond10]

I'm curious...can you elaborate on this?

1st 3-peat Jordan was so damn fast and athletic, it was like playing with better version of D Wade.

2nd 3-peat Jordan was more refined and easy to make shots, it was like playing with a better version of Kobe.

[Doctor Rivers]

1. Age
2. He paced himself more.
3. After 94, the Bulls were pretty much a solid team so he didn't have to take on the same load every night.

Not sure if you were replying to me, but I bolded the part about NBA 2K11.

[Da_Realist]

1st 3-peat Jordan was so damn fast and athletic, it was like playing with better version of D Wade.

2nd 3-peat Jordan was more refined and easy to make shots, it was like playing with a better version of Kobe.

1st 3-peat Jordan ..take the best of D Wade and mix it with the best of Kobe.

[NugzHeat3]

Late 90's NBA style vs early 90's...
Partly true. Partly not.

You're right in a sense. The numbers were a bit lower since the games were slower and entirely played in the half-court.

But if anything, early 90s featured much better basketball as opposed to the shittastic defensive struggles you saw in the late 90s. Its one of the reasons the period from about 1991-95 is my favorite era of basketball because it had the best balance between offense and defense in my opinion.

I didn't watch the 80s but when I do watch a few games on NBA TV, I'm disgusted by the type of perimeter defense played and I can't make it through most of the games unless its like a Lakers vs Celtics type of game.

After 1995, it just kept getting worse because offensive talent was terrible due to the poor drafts in the early 90s, the effect of expansion was becoming increasingly noticeable and Fratello caused the entire NBA to switch to his slow ass defensive oriented systems. Riley bought into it and its one of the reasons Miami continously underachieved.

1998-04 was entirely a defensive game while now its mainly offensive oriented.

That is a pretty big gap stats wise. But its true that first three peat Jordan was a much better player than the second three peat one. In fairness though, the 1996 Seattle team was the best defensive team he faced.

I couldn't help but :facepalm at some of the posts here.

Where as 1st 3-peat Jordan was a One of A Kind talent, 2nd 3-Peat MJ was a more complete Basketball Player (Better Teammates helped that more than anything though).

[juju151111]

Partly true. Partly not.

You're right in a sense. The numbers were a bit lower since the games were slower and entirely played in the half-court.

But if anything, early 90s featured much better basketball as opposed to the shittastic defensive struggles you saw in the late 90s. Its one of the reasons the period from about 1991-95 is my favorite era of basketball because it had the best balance between offense and defense in my opinion.

I didn't watch the 80s but when I do watch a few games on NBA TV, I'm disgusted by the type of perimeter defense played and I can't make it through most of the games unless its like a Lakers vs Celtics type of game.

After 1995, it just kept getting worse because offensive talent was terrible due to the poor drafts in the early 90s, the effect of expansion was becoming increasingly noticeable and Fratello caused the entire NBA to switch to his slow ass defensive oriented systems. Riley bought into it and its one of the reasons Miami continously underachieved.

1998-04 was entirely a defensive game while now its mainly offensive oriented.

That is a pretty big gap stats wise. But its true that first three peat Jordan was a much better player than the second three peat one. In fairness though, the 1996 Seattle team was the best defensive team he faced.

I couldn't help but :facepalm at some of the posts here.
Go watch the Seattle series again and the reason Gary Dayton said he had a easier time guarding MJ 2 3 peat Mj. He said he gets tired easier and he wasn't like he use to be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efMs8e20c7s In that series Mike was missing gimme layups even when he shook Dayton off him.1st 3 peat MJ would have more stamina and runs around the court making plays. Even Gary noted that and 1996 was MJ at his highest weight.

[Nevaeh]

I'm curious...can you elaborate on this?

It's simple. Just like in real life, 2k11 Late 90s MJ had a more consistent and reliable jump shot, and better all around game compared to his early 90s self. He couldn't just blow by people anymore, and was forced to rely on more tools of the trade (back-down, post fades, up and under shot fakes to lay-ups, etc.)

He was simply a more refined version of his younger 90s self, and IMO felt more like a complete Player, even compared to the years where he was putting up historic numbers. At the end of the day, it's all personal preference, but I honestly believe late 90s MJ would have intimidated the younger version.

[juju151111]

It's simple. Just like in real life, 2k11 Late 90s MJ had a more consistent and reliable jump shot, and better all around game compared to his early 90s self. He couldn't just blow by people anymore, and was forced to rely on more tools of the trade (back-down, post fades, up and under shot fakes to lay-ups, etc.)

He was simply a more refined version of his younger 90s self, and IMO felt more like a complete Player, even compared to the years where he was putting up historic numbers. At the end of the day, it's all personal preference, but I honestly believe late 90s MJ would have intimidated the younger version.
Lmao MJ had a jumpshot when he was younger and post play.He just used it a lot morein the 2nd 3 peat. Go watch the 92 knicks series when they wouldn't allow him in the paint at all. He went to work in the post and with jumpers. Watch the 92 finals he was posting clyde and porter all day. He was the post player.

[Nevaeh]

Lmao MJ had a jumpshot when he was younger and post play.He just used it a lot morein the 2nd 3 peat. Go watch the 92 knicks series when they wouldn't allow him in the paint at all. He went to work in the post and with jumpers. Watch the 92 finals he was posting clyde and porter all day. He was the post player.

I get what you're saying juju, but we're taking into consideration that MJ is going against another version of MJ, and not another player who may have mental lapses, or get intimidated because he's guarding "Michael Jordan". I'm also taking into consideration the Teams as well. Make no mistake, young 90s MJ was nothing to play with, but a healthy late 90s Jordan was no slouch either (Stronger, smarter, more ways to beat you, etc.).

[juju151111]

I get what you're saying juju, but we're taking into consideration that MJ is going against another version of MJ, and not another player who may have mental lapses, or get intimidated because he's guarding "Michael Jordan". I'm also taking into consideration the Teams as well. Make no mistake, young 90s MJ was nothing to play with, but a healthy late 90s Jordan was no slouch either (Stronger, smarter, more ways to beat you, etc.).
Even MJ said he was superior in his first 3 peat. MJ in his first 3 peat had more ways to beat you.(Faster,quicker,better defense, etc..) Why would young MJ be scared of old MJ? Old MJ can't guard him too slow.

[Da_Realist]

I honestly believe late 90s MJ would have intimidated the younger version.

:facepalm No one would have intimidated early 90's MJ. Not even his older self.


Make no mistake, young 90s MJ was nothing to play with, but a healthy late 90s Jordan was no slouch either (Stronger, smarter, more ways to beat you, etc.).

I think I can tell who started watching MJ in his later years cause this seems like an emotional preference. I don't understand how anyone can watch that guy in the early 90's and still say the late 90's version was better. Maybe that was your favorite version but to say he was better? He wasn't just some athletic freak cruising by dunking on guys to get his points. He had the footwork, he had the post up, he had the fadeaway, he had the jumnpshot, he had the same competitiveness, he had the same will to win plus he had better stamina, he played much better defense, he could play at top speed for a longer part of the game, he could play any pace, he could dominate on the perimeter and the post area.

Some of you guys are acting like he was Vince Carter or somebody back then.

1992 Eastern Conference Finals Game 7 vs New York Knicks

I don't think he had any game from 96-98 where he dominated as completely as he did here. He shot like 75% until the game was pretty much out of reach. The first half of this game, I'll put up against any half played by anyone. And the thing is, he did this all the time. 15-18 in Game 2 vs Lakers in the 91 Finals. Game 3 vs Pistons in the 91 ECF. Sh*t, Game 4, too. The Shrug Game against Portland in 92 Finals. That brilliant all around game against the Knicks in Game 5 of the 93 ECF. There was a game he grabbed 19 rebounds against Barkley's Sixers in 91. He beat teams any way you could imagine and then thought of a few more ways. Anything he was doing from 96-98, he was doing from 90-93 but better, more consistently and more efficiently plus some things he didn't do later on.

[97 bulls]

:facepalm No one would have intimidated early 90's MJ. Not even his older self.



I think I can tell who started watching MJ in his later years cause this seems like an emotional preference. I don't understand how anyone can watch that guy in the early 90's and still say the late 90's version was better. Maybe that was your favorite version but to say he was better? He wasn't just some athletic freak cruising by dunking on guys to get his points. He had the footwork, he had the post up, he had the fadeaway, he had the jumnpshot, he had the same competitiveness, he had the same will to win plus he had better stamina, he played much better defense, he could play at top speed for a longer part of the game, he could play any pace, he could dominate on the perimeter and the post area.

Some of you guys are acting like he was Vince Carter or somebody back then.

1992 Eastern Conference Finals Game 7 vs New York Knicks

I don't think he had any game where he dominated as completely from 96-98 as he did here. He shot like 75% until the game was pretty much out of reach. The first half of this game, I'll put up against any half played by anyone. And the thing is, he did this all the time. 15-18 in Game 2 vs Lakers in the 91 Finals. Game 3 vs Pistons in the 91 ECF. Sh*t, Game 4, too. The Shrug Game against Portland in 92 Finals. That brilliant all around game against the Knicks in Game 5 of the 93 ECF. There was a game he grabbed 19 rebounds against Barkley's Sixers in 91. He beat teams any way you could imagine and then thought of a few more ways. Anything he was doing from 96-98, he was doing from 90-93 but better, more consistently and more efficiently plus some things he didn't do later on.
Now hold on, why is it that the people that disagree with you are doing it on an emotional basis?

And why don't you listen? Its already been noted that the statistical difference had more to do with the way the game was played. Go back and look at the decrease in FG attempts on a yearly basis even starting in the early 90s. In game 6 vs utah, matt goukas said it best, he said teams just don't want to get out an run anymore. A lot of that was attributed to the style that teams played back then.

There's no doubt in my mind that if you put jordan even at 30 years old in a similar situation as was the early 90s and 80s, where about 4-5 of his shots would be off transition baskets, and the defense was a lot more laxed, his stats accross the board would be higher.

[97 bulls]

Even MJ said he was superior in his first 3 peat. MJ in his first 3 peat had more ways to beat you.(Faster,quicker,better defense, etc..) Why would young MJ be scared of old MJ? Old MJ can't guard him too slow.
When did he say this? In this video, hes saying he lost some athleticism but made up for it with a more cerebral game. And he was stronger.

[97 bulls]

Go watch the Seattle series again and the reason Gary Dayton said he had a easier time guarding MJ 2 3 peat Mj. He said he gets tired easier and he wasn't like he use to be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efMs8e20c7s In that series Mike was missing gimme layups even when he shook Dayton off him.1st 3 peat MJ would have more stamina and runs around the court making plays. Even Gary noted that and 1996 was MJ at his highest weight.
Funny thing is, that payton didnt guard jordan on a consistant basis, payton defended pippen.

And did you hear what goukas said? "Oh the ignorance of youth.

Walton chimed in with his own opinion that he felt jordan was better than ever.

And if that's game 3, jordan dropped 36 on the sonics and the bulls were up by as much as 26 pts well on their way to a blowout.

So much for that interview

[juju151111]

Funny thing is, that payton didnt guard jordan on a consistant basis, payton defended pippen.

And did you hear what goukas said? "Oh the ignorance of youth.

Walton chimed in with his own opinion that he felt jordan was better than ever.

And if that's game 3, jordan dropped 36 on the sonics and the bulls were up by as much as 26 pts well on their way to a blowout.

So much for that interview
Seriously? Dayton didn't guardhim until game 4 he says he tired him outto stop him. Lmao Dayton did guard first 3 peat MJ.97 bulls first 3 peat MJ is better. Stop your BS.

[juju151111]

Now hold on, why is it that the people that disagree with you are doing it on an emotional basis?

And why don't you listen? Its already been noted that the statistical difference had more to do with the way the game was played. Go back and look at the decrease in FG attempts on a yearly basis even starting in the early 90s. In game 6 vs utah, matt goukas said it best, he said teams just don't want to get out an run anymore. A lot of that was attributed to the style that teams played back then.

There's no doubt in my mind that if you put jordan even at 30 years old in a similar situation as was the early 90s and 80s, where about 4-5 of his shots would be off transition baskets, and the defense was a lot more laxed, his stats accross the board would be higher.
:facepalm

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ thinking that MJ ever got 4-5 baskets per game in transition. :oldlol: Maybe 2-4, and the ones he did get were generally off of his own defense out high, stealing the ball and then taking in it for the dunk. He'd still get those baskets today.

[1987_Lakers]

Funny thing is, that payton didnt guard jordan on a consistant basis, payton defended pippen.

And did you hear what goukas said? "Oh the ignorance of youth.

Walton chimed in with his own opinion that he felt jordan was better than ever.

And if that's game 3, jordan dropped 36 on the sonics and the bulls were up by as much as 26 pts well on their way to a blowout.

So much for that interview

Dude, I know you are trying to convince yourself that 95-97 Jordan is better or as good than 90-92 Jordan simply because you are a bigger fan of the 96-98 Bulls, but let it go. Sometimes your bias gets in the way of logical thinking and this thread is a perfect example.

[97 bulls]

Dude, I know you are trying to convince yourself that 95-97 Jordan is better or as good than 90-92 Jordan simply because you are a bigger fan of the 96-98 Bulls, but let it go. Sometimes your bias gets in the way of logical thinking and this thread is a perfect example.
I never said one was better than the other. And the 96-98 bulls aren't my favorite team. I think they're the best team.

My favorite is 91 they expelled so many demons that year

[cteach111]

Funny thing is, that payton didnt guard jordan on a consistant basis, payton defended pippen.

And did you hear what goukas said? "Oh the ignorance of youth.

Walton chimed in with his own opinion that he felt jordan was better than ever.

And if that's game 3, jordan dropped 36 on the sonics and the bulls were up by as much as 26 pts well on their way to a blowout.

So much for that interview

Why do posters continue to take what former players/coaches say at face value? They don't hold any weight.

:confusedshrug:

[bond10]

1st 3-peat MJ was the best version, he carried that subpar team.

[NugzHeat3]

Go watch the Seattle series again and the reason Gary Dayton said he had a easier time guarding MJ 2 3 peat Mj. He said he gets tired easier and he wasn't like he use to be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efMs8e20c7s In that series Mike was missing gimme layups even when he shook Dayton off him.1st 3 peat MJ would have more stamina and runs around the court making plays. Even Gary noted that and 1996 was MJ at his highest weight.
Of course he had a easier time guarding 2nd 3 peat MJ. He was a worse player.

One of the reasons for that is fatigue, like you mentioned. But Payton's defense was definitely effective. Payton started guarding him after Jordan had 27 points on 8/16 FG at the end of the half in game 3. In the second half, Jordan didn't attempt a lot of shots because he had trouble getting involved in the offense largely due to Payton's excellent ball denial defense. He had to work really hard and I'm sure that effected him.

Jordan did get a couple of shots off on Payton and he created seperation too but its possible that fatigue and extra energy he had to use could have caused him to miss the shot. The other guy that mainly guarded him that game, David Wingate, was getting torched.

There were a few switches in the second half when Wingate got him and that's when Jordan did his damage; he had a transition bucket as well.

The other reason Jordan may not have shot well is he had to guard Payton after Harper injured his knee. That definitely impacted his stamina and thats of the things the first three peat Jordan could do at an elite level.

Of course Seattle doubled teamed him a lot; he was pressured and trapped in various ways and directions and that's the biggest reason that Seattle team was so good defensively. In the end, its not one guy that stopped Jordan; it was a team concept but Payton was the best initial defender. I remember Seattle even had Detlef guard him in game 1, don't know what Karl was thinking there.

Anyway, my point in my earlier post was that Seattle was the best defensive team he faced in the finals and that's inarguable as far as I am concerned.

[Da_Realist]

There's no doubt in my mind that if you put jordan even at 30 years old in a similar situation as was the early 90s and 80s, where about 4-5 of his shots would be off transition baskets, and the defense was a lot more laxed, his stats accross the board would be higher.

Jordan turned 30 during the 92/93 season. Are you trying to make my point for me?

And how many times have you heard or read that Jordan paced himself during the 96-98 seasons? A thousand? Think there's a reason for that? Playing a faster pace doesn't necessarily equate to more production. MJ couldn't have played at the same level if you increased the pace too much because he was older. His last game as a Bull, he got one rebound and one assist. Why? He admitted later that he was pacing himself and used his energy to score with Pippen hurt. Bird's strategy in the 98 ECF was to wear Chicago out in the first 3 quarters and bring in young blood like Travis Best to finish them off -- and it almost worked!

Remember that old gatorade commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6nljThMtEc) where Young MJ and Old MJ go at it? After wearing each other out, the even younger MJ (College MJ) came looking for a game...

College MJ: Hey Mike?
Young and Old MJ: What?
College MJ: Who's got next?
Old MJ to Young MJ: Get your young butt out there.

The lesson: Young bodies recuperate faster.

[DuMa]

i put it this way. 90-93 vs 95-98 = superhuman vs supercomputer.

[Da_Realist]

Of course he had a easier time guarding 2nd 3 peat MJ. He was a worse player.

One of the reasons for that is fatigue, like you mentioned. But Payton's defense was definitely effective. Payton started guarding him after Jordan had 27 points on 8/16 FG at the end of the half in game 3. In the second half, Jordan didn't attempt a lot of shots because he had trouble getting involved in the offense largely due to Payton's excellent ball denial defense. He had to work really hard and I'm sure that effected him.

Jordan did get a couple of shots off on Payton and he created seperation too but its possible that fatigue and extra energy he had to use could have caused him to miss the shot. The other guy that mainly guarded him that game, David Wingate, was getting torched.

There were a few switches in the second half when Wingate got him and that's when Jordan did his damage; he had a transition bucket as well.

The other reason Jordan may not have shot well is he had to guard Payton after Harper injured his knee. That definitely impacted his stamina and thats of the things the first three peat Jordan could do at an elite level.

Of course Seattle doubled teamed him a lot; he was pressured and trapped in various ways and directions and that's the biggest reason that Seattle team was so good defensively. In the end, its not one guy that stopped Jordan; it was a team concept but Payton was the best initial defender. I remember Seattle even had Detlef guard him in game 1, don't know what Karl was thinking there.

Anyway, my point in my earlier post was that Seattle was the best defensive team he faced in the finals and that's inarguable as far as I am concerned.

Very well said.

[catch24]

For the life of me, I cannot fathom why people believe '96-98>'91-93 MJ.

All of this crap about pace and more possessions in the early 90's, yet Jordan during the '96 and 97 seasons averaged more shot attempts (23 FGA) than he did in 1991 and '92, where he attempted 22 a game.

[juju151111]

Of course he had a easier time guarding 2nd 3 peat MJ. He was a worse player.

One of the reasons for that is fatigue, like you mentioned. But Payton's defense was definitely effective. Payton started guarding him after Jordan had 27 points on 8/16 FG at the end of the half in game 3. In the second half, Jordan didn't attempt a lot of shots because he had trouble getting involved in the offense largely due to Payton's excellent ball denial defense. He had to work really hard and I'm sure that effected him.

Jordan did get a couple of shots off on Payton and he created seperation too but its possible that fatigue and extra energy he had to use could have caused him to miss the shot. The other guy that mainly guarded him that game, David Wingate, was getting torched.

There were a few switches in the second half when Wingate got him and that's when Jordan did his damage; he had a transition bucket as well.

The other reason Jordan may not have shot well is he had to guard Payton after Harper injured his knee. That definitely impacted his stamina and thats of the things the first three peat Jordan could do at an elite level.

Of course Seattle doubled teamed him a lot; he was pressured and trapped in various ways and directions and that's the biggest reason that Seattle team was so good defensively. In the end, its not one guy that stopped Jordan; it was a team concept but Payton was the best initial defender. I remember Seattle even had Detlef guard him in game 1, don't know what Karl was thinking there.

Anyway, my point in my earlier post was that Seattle was the best defensive team he faced in the finals and that's inarguable as far as I am concerned.
MJ played better defense and avged more stls and rebounds. He couldn't do all that while dropping 30+ consistently in the 2nd 3 peat. I agree with everything you said. Also people who said first 3 peat MJ didn't have a post game is stupid.

[Asukal]

What the hell are some of you guys smoking? 1st 3peat Jordan was already a complete basketball player, 2nd 3peat Jordan was a showcase of his superior basketball IQ but it doesn't mean his younger self didn't already have the same arsenal. Do you seriously believe 91-93 MJ had holes in his game? :roll:

[NumberSix]

Kobe

[97 bulls]

What the hell are some of you guys smoking? 1st 3peat Jordan was already a complete basketball player, 2nd 3peat Jordan was a showcase of his superior basketball IQ but it doesn't mean his younger self didn't already have the same arsenal. Do you seriously believe 91-93 MJ had holes in his game? :roll:
Neither had holes in his game. Its just more of a preference.

[juju151111]

Neither had holes in his game. Its just more of a preference.
2nd 3 peat had stamina and defensive holes. Gtfo its not preference, its clear young MJ had a advantage. MJ himself has admitted that and he has a large ass ego.:facepalm

[Nevaeh]

I think the "Pro-1st 3-peat" guys are blowing things out of context and getting upset where there's really no reason to. The people who see 96-98 MJ as a more "complete Player" aren't knocking the young version at all. It may just simply have to do with what you value in a basketball player.

I felt that late 90s Jordan was a more complete player, as opposed to young MJ who was still more of a One Man Show, which obviously had to do with trust issues with his teammates. Late 90s MJ, IMO finally learned how to incorporate his team into the Game more, without feeling the need to "Force the Issue" or be a "Show Off" like his younger self.

At the end of the day, Basketball is still a team game and Late 90s MJ showed his ability in knowing how to balance both when he should "push the peddle", and when to trust others to carry their weight as well.

At Da Realist: I get what you and others are saying though. It's kinda like how Peeps are impressed with Wilt when he was going on scoring rampages versus when he became more of a team player late in his career. Scoring Rampages aren't the "Be all, end all" of basketball for me as a fan though. Which may be why some Fans hold Late 90s MJ (and his teams) in higher regard than the younger version, not just because of "sentimental" reasons.

Wow, you know it's a Lockout when Jordan fans are arguing with each other over which MJ was the "best". :oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

I think the "Pro-1st 3-peat" guys are blowing things out of context and getting upset where there's really no reason to. The people who see 96-98 MJ as a more "complete Player" aren't knocking the young version at all. It may just simply have to do with what you value in a basketball player.

I felt that late 90s Jordan was a more complete player, as opposed to young MJ who was still more of a One Man Show, which obviously had to do with trust issues with his teammates. Late 90s MJ, IMO finally learned how to incorporate his team into the Game more, without feeling the need to "Force the Issue" or be a "Show Off" like his younger self.

At the end of the day, Basketball is still a team game and Late 90s MJ showed his ability in knowing how to balance both when he should "push the peddle", and when to trust others to carry their weight as well.

At Da Realist: I get what you and others are saying though. It's kinda like how Peeps are impressed with Wilt when he was going on scoring rampages versus when he became more of a team player late in his career. Scoring Rampages aren't the "Be all, end all" of basketball for me as a fan though. Which may be why some Fans hold Late 90s MJ (and his teams) in higher regard than the younger version, not just because of "sentimental" reasons.

Wow, you know it's a Lockout when Jordan fans are arguing with each other over which MJ was the "best". :oldlol:

But here's the thing... If you were talking about 1988 Jordan then I would agree with you. But from 1990...and especially 1991 he was no different mentally than he was in 1996. He trusted his teammates as much as he did in the late 90's. I think he's being penalized for his athletic gifts and not really recognized for the mental toughness it took for him to dominate so completely.

And I'm a fan of Jordan during his whole career. There's no favoritism at all cause it's the same guy. I like a lot of what Jordan brought to the table in the late 90's but as a basketball fan I'm calling it like I see it. It wasn't just flashy dunks and And-1's. The exact same things he brought to the table in the late 90's, he brought to the table in the early 90's. Didn't trust his teammates? I saw him pass to Bill Cartwright to win a game in 91 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAf7wQ_l7r0). He averaged what 12 assists in the 91 Finals? He destroyed Detroit with his passing in the 91 ECF. The shot that won Game 5 of the 1993 ECF was a BJ jumpshot off a pass from Jordan.

[DJ Leon Smith]

I think the "Pro-1st 3-peat" guys are blowing things out of context and getting upset where there's really no reason to. The people who see 96-98 MJ as a more "complete Player" aren't knocking the young version at all.

This. It's like any job you have, after you do it for a while you will get better at what you do. No one is saying the first three-peat wasn't great, it's just that over time you work out how to perform your role more efficiently.

[Da_Realist]

This. It's like any job you have, after you do it for a while you will get better at what you do. No one is saying the first three-peat wasn't great, it's just that over time you work out how to perform your role more efficiently.

Not in a physical sport. Or we would have 75 year olds dominating the game. At some point, the decline in your athletic ability will not allow you to do some things you used to be able to master. So now it becomes a challenge to compensate. And Jordan compensated better than anyone, but that doesn't mean he was better than in his peak years.

[97 bulls]

I think 94 and 95 bulls showed jordan a lot. It seems like he really believed that he carried the team to those three championships.

Then once he realized and actually saw that the bulls could be competitive without him, and he really saw what pippen and kukoc were capable of, he realized that he could pick his spots and take over games as needed.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Not in a physical sport. Or we would have 75 year olds dominating the game. At some point, the decline in your athletic ability will not allow you to do some things you used to be able to master. So now it becomes a challenge to compensate. And Jordan compensated better than anyone, but that doesn't mean he was better than in his peak years.

Of course your physical skills decline, but the mental/experience aspect is a massive factor in professional sports. Otherwise theoretically rookies should dominate every year because they have less wear and tear on their bodies than veterans.

And yes, I consider Jordan's peak to be 1992/93, but that doesn't mean for the secon threepeat he wasn't truly elite. I'll take a small drop-off in athleticism for an upgrade in experience/mentality anytime.

[Da_Realist]

Of course your physical skills decline, but the mental/experience aspect is a massive factor in professional sports. Otherwise theoretically rookies should dominate every year because they have less wear and tear on their bodies than veterans.

And yes, I consider Jordan's peak to be 1992/93, but that doesn't mean for the secon threepeat he wasn't truly elite. I'll take a small drop-off in athleticism for an upgrade in experience/mentality anytime.

But what upgrade in experience/mentality? By the time he retired in 93, he had played 9 years, won 3 titles and had been to the Eastern Conference Finals 5 straight years.

[NugzHeat3]

But here's the thing... If you were talking about 1988 Jordan then I would agree with you. But from 1990...and especially 1991 he was no different mentally than he was in 1996. He trusted his teammates as much as he did in the late 90's. I think he's being penalized for his athletic gifts and not really recognized for the mental toughness it took for him to dominate so completely.

And I'm a fan of Jordan during his whole career. There's no favoritism at all cause it's the same guy. I like a lot of what Jordan brought to the table in the late 90's but as a basketball fan I'm calling it like I see it. It wasn't just flashy dunks and And-1's. The exact same things he brought to the table in the late 90's, he brought to the table in the early 90's. Didn't trust his teammates? I saw him pass to Bill Cartwright to win a game in 91 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAf7wQ_l7r0). He averaged what 12 assists in the 91 Finals? He destroyed Detroit with his passing in the 91 ECF. The shot that won Game 5 of the 1993 ECF was a BJ jumpshot off a pass from Jordan.
All of this. Plus Da REalist's opinion > anyone else's because he's literally seen every Bulls game from that era. :applause:

[eliteballer]

There is a difference. He was craftier.

He was smarter post retirement. You can see it in how crafty he is. Example is his footwork and how he used it to juke players. It was just smoother and more common. Ie on his fadeaways and in the post.

Sure you can say he had it before but didnt use it because of the athletic ability but its pretty clear if you watch how much smoother he is on the fadeaways. Even then, its two points whether he' driving through for a dunk or using a pivot move to score.

[Nevaeh]

There is a difference. He was craftier.

He was smarter post retirement. You can see it in how crafty he is. Example is his footwork and how he used it to juke players. It was just smoother and more common. Ie on his fadeaways and in the post.

Sure you can say he had it before but didnt use it because of the athletic ability but its pretty clear if you watch how much smoother he is on the fadeaways. Even then, its two points whether he' driving through for a dunk or using a pivot move to score.

See what you done did Da Realist? You got me agreeing with eliteBALLER, of all people!!!! :mad: JK, love both ya'lls opinions, but gotta lean with Elite on this one..

[97 bulls]

See what you done did Da Realist? You got me agreeing with eliteBALLER, of all people!!!! :mad: JK, love both ya'lls opinions, but gotta lean with Elite on this one..
Lol I was thinking the same thing.

Damn this lockout needs to be over with

[juju151111]

See what you done did Da Realist? You got me agreeing with eliteBALLER, of all people!!!! :mad: JK, love both ya'lls opinions, but gotta lean with Elite on this one..
Nobody is questioning if he had good footwork or anything. We are talking about who was better and first 3 peat MJ was clearly better.

[Smoke117]

So a younger in his prime Jordan was better then an older out of his prime Jordan...must of taken a lot of analysis to come to that conclusion.

[Big#50]

Jordan in the 1st three peat. No doubt about it. This should he no debate. Second three peat MJ had a lot of help.

[Asukal]

There is a difference. He was craftier.

He was smarter post retirement. You can see it in how crafty he is. Example is his footwork and how he used it to juke players. It was just smoother and more common. Ie on his fadeaways and in the post.

Sure you can say he had it before but didnt use it because of the athletic ability but its pretty clear if you watch how much smoother he is on the fadeaways. Even then, its two points whether he' driving through for a dunk or using a pivot move to score.

Why the hell would he post up and fade away when he can just blow by his defender and dunk on the opposing center's head? 1st peat MJ is better, you can say 2nd peat MJ is more whatever but 1st peat MJ is better.

[Indian guy]

MJ's greatness lied in combining elite athleticism with elite skill level - from the get-go. He became more and more polished as his career wore on, sure, but he played a very skill-oriented game right from the 80's. Look up any of his full-game highlights on YT even from 84-89, you'll see a PURE basketball player, not just an athletic freak.

It seems to be a commonly held opinion that MJ didn't posses a great jumper, fadeaway and post-skills until the 2nd 3peat, and I really don't understand where that comes from.

[andgar923]

MJ's greatness lied in combining elite athleticism with elite skill level - from the get-go. He became more and more polished as his career wore on, sure, but he played a very skill-oriented game right from the 80's. Look up any of his full-game highlights on YT even from 84-89, you'll see a PURE basketball player, not just an athletic freak.

It seems to be a commonly held opinion that MJ didn't posses a great jumper, fadeaway and post-skills until the 2nd 3peat, and I really don't understand where that comes from.

Yup.

I think the key word is 'rely'.

I've seen MJ say that he developed his turnaround to avoid double teams when talking about his later years, but he's been using it since college. It's basically an identical turnaround fadeaway jumper, the same one that he uses in the late 90s. Maybe he just got better at it cause he relied on it more since he lost a step, but it was there. The rest of his game was also there, he just improved on it a bit more, and he had to rely on other aspects as his athleticism deteriorated. But some people make it seem as tho he wasn't crafty, as if he didn't have a fadeaway or some of the other skills he relied on later in his career.... they were always there.

It aint like he had to work out with Hakeem to learn how to post up as a veteran or anything.

[Jacks3]

lol. Kobe had a great post-up game before he ever met Hakeem. Amazing how moronic you are.

[Replay32]

It's surprising some of the post in this thread. The guys that are claiming the 2nd 3peat jordan was better obviously didn't see or wasn't paying attention during the 1st 3 peat. And it's not a matter of opinion. Jordan from 1990-93 could do everything the older MJ could do and then some.

Foot work, unselfish, great off the ball, better defense, post game, a mean fadaway jumper, he was more athletic and had a high bball IQ.

If you don't think MJ had a post game watch some of those finals games against portland in 1992. Or some of the games against the knicks in 1992. MJ was better in the 1st 3 peat and he had a better ability to adjust to what type of defense was used to stop him. That's why his efficiency was so damn great.

Both versions were great but 90-93 MJ was a better all around player. IMO early 90's MJ is the best SG to ever play the game. No one comes close his consistency, impact and dominance. He was no joke.

[andgar923]

lol. Kobe had a great post-up game before he ever met Hakeem. Amazing how moronic you are.
Who the f*ck said anything about Kobe?

[cteach111]

after reading some of these posts, i'm under the impression some would take '06-10 Kobe over 1st 3peat Jordan.

[catch24]

after reading some of these posts, i'm under the impression some would take '06-10 Kobe over 1st 3peat Jordan.

Going by some of the posts, that's what the general consensus seems to be. Second 3-peat Jordan put up virtually the same postseason numbers as Kobe from 2008-2010 (you can debate intangibles and other facets of the game that aren't on a stat sheet, but at the end of the day, Kobe and Mike's postseason production are pretty much identical).

What really separates the two is MJ's play from 91-93, which just so happens to be the greatest peak the games seen (damn near indisputable too). And, don't get it twisted - MJ from 1996-98 was awesome, just not AIR-Jordan circa first 3-peat. Ironically enough, I've been working on a remastered postseason highlight-reel of his from 96-98, lol.

[97 bulls]

I still think a lot of you guys are really missing the point here. What ive heard as far as the 2nd threepeat jordan vs the 1st is, he was STRONGER, CRAFTIER, WISER, RELIED ON HIS TEAM MORE. Yes he lost some athleticism, but it was minimal and he replaced that lost athleticism with the those hightend abilities I just mentioned.


And what's sad and normal is the constant name calling that comes with anyone that disagrees with them. The best term I've heard from a poster on here is "elitetest". And that's what most of jordan fans on here are.

[Jacks3]

Wait. Some people actually think 96-98 Jordan was better than the 90-93 version?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[StarJordan]

Wait. Some people actually think 96-98 Jordan was better than the 90-93 version?

apparently so, tubelight

[Asukal]

I still think a lot of you guys are really missing the point here. What ive heard as far as the 2nd threepeat jordan vs the 1st is, he was STRONGER, CRAFTIER, WISER, RELIED ON HIS TEAM MORE. Yes he lost some athleticism, but it was minimal and he replaced that lost athleticism with the those hightend abilities I just mentioned.


And what's sad and normal is the constant name calling that comes with anyone that disagrees with them. The best term I've heard from a poster on here is "elitetest". And that's what most of jordan fans on here are.

So 96-98 Jordan is better than 91-93? Because that's what you are implying here. If you really believe that, I'm telling you now what you heard is WRONG! WROOOOOOOONG! :cheers:

[Jacks3]

apparently so, tubelight
Even your dumbass doesn't believe that shit.

****ing ****-sucking *******.

[97 bulls]

So 96-98 Jordan is better than 91-93? Because that's what you are implying here. If you really believe that, I'm telling you now what you heard is WRONG! WROOOOOOOONG! :cheers:
No I'm not saying that. I think they went about the business of destroying the league in different ways. But my preference would be the 96-98 jordan.

[Asukal]

No I'm not saying that. I think they went about the business of destroying the league in different ways. But my preference would be the 96-98 jordan.

Ok you prefer 96-98 Jordan but don't think he is better than 91-93. You are contradicting yourself but whatever. :cheers:

[97 bulls]

Ok you prefer 96-98 Jordan but don't think he is better than 91-93. You are contradicting yourself but whatever. :cheers:
I don't see it as being contradictory. I feel you can't go wrong with either. Id just be more willing to take the guy that was more of a team player.

I know people like to allude to 91 when he avg 11 assists, but I still think about what phil jackson had to say to him. "Who's open michael?" As opposed to 97 when jordan told kerr be ready cuz your gonna be open. He had more trust in his teammates. maybe it was because they were better I don't know know. But it showed on the court.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't see it as being contradictory. I feel you can't go wrong with either. Id just be more willing to take the guy that was more of a team player.

I know people like to allude to 91 when he avg 11 assists, but I still think about what phil jackson had to say to him. "Who's open michael?" As opposed to 97 when jordan told kerr be ready cuz your gonna be open. He had more trust in his teammates. maybe it was because they were better I don't know know. But it showed on the court.

You keep bringing up all these ridiculous statements that were made by various people (MJ himself, Jackson etc.), but they're exactly that: ridiculous. Jackson made that statement for effect, for the moment. Jordan had been hitting Paxson for jumpers that whole series prior to the end of game 5 (he was averaging 12 apg to that point). People say things that don't jibe with reality all the time, oftentimes just to have something to say or have something quotable to say. A coach's job is to coach - Jackson may have said that, but in a reinforcing kind of way, not in a "I'm teaching you a new concept" kind of way.

[Da_Realist]

From Playing for Keeps (http://www.amazon.com/Playing-Keeps-Michael-Jordan-World/dp/0767904443)

About 1998 Finals Game 6

So it was very clear from the beginning of the game that Jordan would have to carry the team. For much of the first half, Jordan had to ration his energy on defense. At one point Tex Winter had even turned to Phil Jackson and said, "Michael's giving defense a lick and a promise," and Jackson had replied, "Well, Tex, he does need a bit of a rest."

On offense, Michael Jordan carried the load. He was rationing out his energy as best he could, playing less defense and doing less rebounding than normal, but at the half he had twenty-three points, on nine of nineteen from the field (three of six on his threes), and two of three from the line.

[97 bulls]

You keep bringing up all these ridiculous statements that were made by various people (MJ himself, Jackson etc.), but they're exactly that: ridiculous. Jackson made that statement for effect, for the moment. Jordan had been hitting Paxson for jumpers that whole series prior to the end of game 5 (he was averaging 12 apg to that point). People say things that don't jibe with reality all the time, oftentimes just to have something to say or have something quotable to say. A coach's job is to coach - Jackson may have said that, but in a reinforcing kind of way, not in a "I'm teaching you a new concept" kind of way.
Yeah cuz you know better than the man himself right?

[juju151111]

Yeah cuz you know better than the man himself right?
?? How many asts was MJ avging before that point? You must be crazy. Jackson could of said that because MJ made one play, but in no way is avging 12 asts bad. Give up man nobody agrees with your nonsense.

[97 bulls]

From Playing for Keeps (http://www.amazon.com/Playing-Keeps-Michael-Jordan-World/dp/0767904443)

About 1998 Finals Game 6

So it was very clear from the beginning of the game that Jordan would have to carry the team. For much of the first half, Jordan had to ration his energy on defense. At one point Tex Winter had even turned to Phil Jackson and said, "Michael's giving defense a lick and a promise," and Jackson had replied, "Well, Tex, he does need a bit of a rest."

On offense, Michael Jordan carried the load. He was rationing out his energy as best he could, playing less defense and doing less rebounding than normal, but at the half he had twenty-three points, on nine of nineteen from the field (three of six on his threes), and two of three from the line.
I really don't see why you would hang on quotes and opinions from a book but then question the viewpoint of the exact person whre talking about.

In the 93 fiinals game 6, the commentators said that jordan admitted that he was tired and just didn't have it in reference to a conversatiion they had about game 4 I believe.

Jordan had to be talked into joining the dreamteam cuz he was concerend about not being able to rest in the offseason for the upcomming season.

[97 bulls]

?? How many asts was MJ avging before that point? You must be crazy. Jackson could of said that because MJ made one play, but in no way is avging 12 asts bad. Give up man nobody agrees with your nonsense.
Lol maybe from phils persective he missed enough open players that he should've been avg 15-16 assists.

[Da_Realist]

I really don't see why you would hang on quotes and opinions from a book but then question the viewpoint of the exact person whre talking about.

In the 93 fiinals game 6, the commentators said that jordan admitted that he was tired and just didn't have it in reference to a conversatiion they had about game 4 I believe.

Jordan had to be talked into joining the dreamteam cuz he was concerend about not being able to rest in the offseason for the upcomming season.

1 reb and 1 ast with hardly any defense because he was conserving energy. Check the last game of the 93 Finals for a comparison.

[97 bulls]

1 reb and 1 ast with hardly any defense because he was conserving energy. Check the last game of the 93 Finals for a comparison.
I didn't say the last game I said I believe it was game 4 that jordan was referring to.

Why is it that you guys must act as if jordan from 91-93 had a cape, was faster than a speeding bullit, could bend steel with his bare hands, jump tall buildings with a single bound?

And I'm in no way shape or form saying that jordan wasnt great or any less great in 91-93. To be honest, I think a lot of you guys over analyze michael jordan. Was he the greatest? Yes, but all the other stuff is really overblown.

[Da_Realist]

I didn't say the last game I said I believe it was game 4 that jordan was referring to.

Why is it that you guys must act as if jordan from 91-93 had a cape, was faster than a speeding bullit, could bend steel with his bare hands, jump tall buildings with a single bound?

And I'm in no way shape or form saying that jordan wasnt great or any less great in 91-93. To be honest, I think a lot of you guys over analyze michael jordan. Was he the greatest? Yes, but all the other stuff is really overblown.

That's lame. Nobody said a damn thing about a cape or a bullet. Stop whining cause you ran out of things to say. Come on 37 year old.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

In the early '90s there was almost nothing that MJ couldn't do. He could shoot jumpers really well, drive into the lane and finish better than any guard that's ever played. He played better defense and was still very good at passing. He also had more stamina to be able to play more minutes. I think that the older Jordan had a much tougher time scoring the ball (see postseason numbers) than the younger one.

[97 bulls]

That's lame. Nobody said a damn thing about a cape or a bullet. Stop whining cause you ran out of things to say. Come on 37 year old.
You guys are the ones treating him as if he wore a cape and tights to his games. If that ain't childish I don't know what is.

[juju151111]

I didn't say the last game I said I believe it was game 4 that jordan was referring to.

Why is it that you guys must act as if jordan from 91-93 had a cape, was faster than a speeding bullit, could bend steel with his bare hands, jump tall buildings with a single bound?

And I'm in no way shape or form saying that jordan wasnt great or any less great in 91-93. To be honest, I think a lot of you guys over analyze michael jordan. Was he the greatest? Yes, but all the other stuff is really overblown.
You seriously have no idea Wtf your talking about do you? Nobody is saying 1st 3 peat MJ never got tired. MJ also got tired in 91 in gm 2. The thing is MJ was had more stamina. Offense and defense. The 2nd 3 peat he took off defensive plays to conserve energy and still couldn't put up the rebounding and asts numbers. You seriously are retarded. I done u can believe anything you want. In your eyes anything through 96-98 is superior no matter how Mich proof is handed to you.

[L8k3r5]

Why you gotta go and start trash talking? If this turns into the usual sh*t Jordan vs Kobe troll thread, it'll be your fault this time.
It's because he's a Jordan homer. What else do you expect from him?

[Da_Realist]

You guys are the ones treating him as if he wore a cape and tights to his games. If that ain't childish I don't know what is.

Then argue your point. If someone says something that AIN'T TRUE, call him on it. Don't put things in my mouth that I didn't say. I said he was better from 90-93 than he was from 96-98. I didn't say he was perfect. My whole argument has stayed on that point. You ran out of sh*t to say so you're making an exaggerated generalization that no one on here has said. It's pathetic.

And if someone did say he was perfect, could fly or any other childlike reference to superheroes you should have a field day disputing it.

[97 bulls]

You seriously have no idea Wtf your talking about do you? Nobody is saying 1st 3 peat MJ never got tired. MJ also got tired in 91 in gm 2. The thing is MJ was had more stamina. Offense and defense. The 2nd 3 peat he took off defensive plays to conserve energy and still couldn't put up the rebounding and asts numbers. You seriously are retarded. I done u can believe anything you want. In your eyes anything through 96-98 is superior no matter how Mich proof is handed to you.
Lol why don't you go back and reread my posts. I'm not saying he walked on water in 96-98, I think you guys are overblowing the minimal difference in ability. That's all. I'm not saying jordan didn't get tired later on in his career, you guys are saying he didn't get tired in 91-93.

I do think the example da realist used was dumb. Game 6 of a hard fought physical series, with his wing guy hurting. That's not saying much.

[Da_Realist]

I do think the example da realist used was dumb. Game 6 of a hard fought physical series, with his wing guy hurting. That's not saying much.

For comparison:

Game 4 of a hard fought series with Pippen out (1990):

45 points, 6 rebounds, 11 assists, 2 steals and a few blocks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQGYkYXJc7s)

[guy]

I don't see it as being contradictory. I feel you can't go wrong with either. Id just be more willing to take the guy that was more of a team player.


I really don't think he was that much more of a team player later in his career. He was more of a team player because he was older and more mature. But he also seemed to be more of a team player in the 2nd three-peat just cause he wasn't able to do as much, and he didn't need to do as much as he did in the first three-peat. In the first three-peat, he was able to do more, which is why he did more. That doesn't necessarily mean he was more selfish and less of a team player because of that.

[97 bulls]

Then argue your point. If someone says something that AIN'T TRUE, call him on it. Don't put things in my mouth that I didn't say. I said he was better from 90-93 than he was from 96-98. I didn't say he was perfect. My whole argument has stayed on that point. You ran out of sh*t to say so you're making an exaggerated generalization that no one on here has said. It's pathetic.

And if someone did say he was perfect, could fly or any other childlike reference to superheroes you should have a field day disputing it.
Don't be a fool, I didn't mean in a literal sense.

And I have backed up my point of view by pointing out some of jordans own words.

Did he not say that he was on the fence about joining the dreamteam because he was concerened about not being able to rest for the long season? A sure sign that he gets tired. Even in the early 90s.

Did I not point out how the announcers in game 6 said jordan said in a cenversation that he was fatigued?

Didn't jordan himself say in that interview during 96 that he was 95-97% of what he was in his athletic prime? But that he was stronger, watched his diet, and was much more cerebral. In that he used his team more.

Didn't bill walton say he believed jordan was better after his first retirement?

Didn't elite baller show a comparison between 2 of the same dunks he made one from 90 and the other from 96?

I'm convinced there's no amount of quotes, clips, or even words out of jordans mouth about his body will change your pov.

[Da_Realist]

Don't be a fool, I didn't mean in a literal sense.

Me either.


And I have backed up my point of view by pointing out some of jordans own words.

Did he not say that he was on the fence about joining the dreamteam because he was concerened about not being able to rest for the long season? A sure sign that he gets tired. Even in the early 90s.

Did I not point out how the announcers in game 6 said jordan said in a cenversation that he was fatigued?

So? When he gets tired in the early 90's he still had an all around game. He didn't need to pace himself or only concentrate on scoring.


Didn't jordan himself say in that interview during 96 that he was 95-97% of what he was in his athletic prime? But that he was stronger, watched his diet, and was much more cerebral. In that he used his team more.

Again. So? How does this show 96-98 Jordan is better?


Didn't bill walton say he believed jordan was better after his first retirement?

I don't know if he said it or not. And it doesn't really matter. I'd love to debate his points here on ISH if he was here. He'd no doubt do better than "But y'all think MJ is perfect. Y'all are elitists. I'm tired of y'all 91-93 Jordanaires! :cry: "


Didn't elite baller show a comparison between 2 of the same dunks he made one from 90 and the other from 96?

That dude's a 20 year old Kobe fan. And you already know you don't want to compare dunks.


I'm convinced there's no amount of quotes, clips, or even words out of jordans mouth about his body will change your pov.

You haven't done anything but speak in cliches and whine about Superman comparisons.

[97 bulls]

I really don't think he was that much more of a team player later in his career. He was more of a team player because he was older and more mature. But he also seemed to be more of a team player in the 2nd three-peat just cause he wasn't able to do as much, and he didn't need to do as much as he did in the first three-peat. In the first three-peat, he was able to do more, which is why he did more. That doesn't necessarily mean he was more selfish and less of a team player because of that.
He was a team player in the early 90s. The difference to me is that during the first 3pt, the team played around him. In the second he played around his team.

Remember that conversation we had Guy about an interview jordan did after 93. And he implied he carried the team and that team an there was a riff between him and pippen and grant and he felt the two didn't appreciate him. And that contributed to him retireing?

And the implication was that part of the reason he retired was because he wanted to prove how valuable he was. I really feel once he saw what they did without him, he realized that while he was the clear cut best player he wasn't as valuable as he thought he was. Meaning that the bulls didn't flounder. He thought (as we all did) that they would struggle to make the playoffs at best and maybe be a barely 500 team and finish.

That 94 season changed his views of that team and himself. And that also made him a better basketball player. From a mental standpoint anyway.

[Nevaeh]

At Da Realist:

I think you're kinda missing the point of the 96-98 MJ crowd a bit. Let me ask you this. Would you agree that Late 90s MJ added a few extra tricks to his arsenal that may have been missing from the early 90s MJ?

[Da_Realist]

At Da Realist:

I think you're kinda missing the point of the 96-98 MJ crowd a bit. Let me ask you this. Would you agree that Late 90s MJ added a few extra tricks to his arsenal that may have been missing from the early 90s MJ?

Sure. But the question is which version is better. I don't deny that MJ added to his game :confusedshrug: I also think you guys are glossing over a lot of the stuff MJ WAS doing during the early 90's because the media has led you to believe he got by on his athleticism.

He was more productive and more efficient during the early 90's so there has to be more than "well he was nicer" or "he added a couple of moves" to offset that.

[FlashDwyaneWade3]

It's because he's a Jordan homer. What else do you expect from him?
He's not a Jordan homer. He's a LeBron homer.

[Da_Realist]

There is a difference. He was craftier.

He was smarter post retirement. You can see it in how crafty he is. Example is his footwork and how he used it to juke players. It was just smoother and more common. Ie on his fadeaways and in the post.

Sure you can say he had it before but didnt use it because of the athletic ability but its pretty clear if you watch how much smoother he is on the fadeaways. Even then, its two points whether he' driving through for a dunk or using a pivot move to score.

Footwork like this from a game in 91?

MJ Ridiculous footwork (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJqX75f6lKA)

That doesn't look smooth to you?

[Da_Realist]

^^ I could post more but I'm saving it for a group of highlights I will post soon. Trust me. Dude was incredibly skilled in the early 90's.

[eliteballer]

Smooth as this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJcEUPr4qdM&feature=channel_video_title&t=6m15s

No.

Jordan in 98 definitely wasn't as good. 96 was though, he was only 32 in the beginning of that season with only 8 seasons of NBA ball on his legs

[Da_Realist]

Smooth as this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJcEUPr4qdM&feature=channel_video_title&t=6m15s

No.

Jordan in 98 definitely wasn't as good. 96 was though, he was only 32 in the beginning of that season with only 8 seasons of NBA ball on his legs

I'm not going to compare moves cause that's up to personal opinion. My point is he was just as skilled as he was from 96-98 with added athleticism, youth, quickness and stamina.

That's why he was more productive and more efficient than he was in 96-98. Showing one or two moves does not offset that especially when I can show a hundred others that 96-98 Jordan couldn't do.

I'm sure you'd love for 96-98 Jordan to be better cause that's the only version Kobe is close to.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan in 98 definitely wasn't as good. 96 was though, he was only 32 in the beginning of that season with only 8 seasons of NBA ball on his legs

32 years and 9 months old to start the 1996 season. Basically 33, not a guy who just turned 32 or anything. It's misleading. He turned 33 prior to the ASG that season.

[eliteballer]

He turned 33 in the middle of the season, what like a week before the ASG? Who's misleading now. Your desperate nitpicking would be comical if it wasnt so pitiful. I mean, REALLY now...:wtf:

[eliteballer]

That's why he was more productive and more efficient than he was in 96-98.

Uh...it's because league defense was worse. You can check pace, point totals, and FG% for that:facepalm

[Da_Realist]

Uh...it's because league defense was worse. You can check pace, point totals, and FG% for that:facepalm

Watch some games :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Indian guy]

Full-game highlights of 1 game from each season of MJ's career(not the usual ones) from 84-93. To give an idea of how complete his game always was, even in the 80's.

84-85 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP-EIeGW4lk)

85-86 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wId1-GdesWU&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL14C1A116E5AF8991&t=17s)

86-87 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqGsp7KBOW4)

87-88 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL-8_f9bNwE&t=32s)

88-89 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLEQPJB4ZlY&t=10s)

89-90 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ytuSw6D4U0)

90-91 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-WxOHHo9XE)

91-92 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNGhNxpZP2o)

92-93 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfFgzgfotts)

[Da_Realist]

Full-game highlights of 1 game from each season of MJ's career(not the usual ones) from 84-93. To give an idea of how complete his game always was, even in the 80's.

84-85 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP-EIeGW4lk)

85-86 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wId1-GdesWU&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL14C1A116E5AF8991&t=17s)

86-87 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqGsp7KBOW4)

87-88 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL-8_f9bNwE&t=32s)

88-89 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLEQPJB4ZlY&t=10s)

89-90 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ytuSw6D4U0)

90-91 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-WxOHHo9XE)

91-92 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNGhNxpZP2o)

92-93 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfFgzgfotts)

Thank you. Nice summary. Now I'm out to see Les Miserables...

[eliteballer]

No one's saying his game wasnt complete. But his footwork, strength, post game, and fadeaway were all more refined post retirement, and in 96 he was still athletic enough to do things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1mcuyoOWB8&t=6m16s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu-9-c2sUoY

[97 bulls]

Me either.



So? When he gets tired in the early 90's he still had an all around game. He didn't need to pace himself or only concentrate on scoring.
it depends on how you look at it. To show his wisdom, he knew it would be better to pace himself, as opposed to shooting out the gate, let the jazz beat on him for 3 quarters, put up gaudy stats, then lose the game like he used to in the late 80s.

Again. So? How does this show 96-98 Jordan is better?
I'm not saying neither was better. I said they were equally effective in different ways.

I don't know if he said it or not. And it doesn't really matter. I'd love to debate his points here on ISH if he was here. He'd no doubt do better than "But y'all think MJ is perfect. Y'all are elitists. I'm tired of y'all 91-93 Jordanaires! :cry: "
werent you the one that posted that gary payton clip in which he said jordan was old and wasn't the same and he could guard him? Walton said it in that clip. Along with goukas who diagreed with paytons assertion too.


That dude's a 20 year old Kobe fan. And you already know you don't want to compare dunks.
why does his age and his fan preference matter? Your an older jordan fan, why is your pov the end all to be all??


You haven't done anything but speak in cliches and whine about Superman comparisons.
No, your problem is I disagree with you and I don't feel jordan walked on water. And I don't base my opinions on stats.

[97 bulls]

Watch some games :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
Get away from stats.

[Da_Realist]

Get away from stats.

I gave you quotes, clips and my perspective backed by the stats. You gave your opinion and a stick of bubble gum. :facepalm

[97 bulls]

I gave you quotes, clips and my perspective backed by the stats. You gave your opinion and a stick of bubble gum. :facepalm
Dude, were talking about michael jordan, I'm baseing my pov off quotes from michael jordan. As well as clips etc.

[andgar923]

Full-game highlights of 1 game from each season of MJ's career(not the usual ones) from 84-93. To give an idea of how complete his game always was, even in the 80's.

84-85 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP-EIeGW4lk)

85-86 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wId1-GdesWU&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL14C1A116E5AF8991&t=17s)

86-87 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqGsp7KBOW4)

87-88 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL-8_f9bNwE&t=32s)

88-89 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLEQPJB4ZlY&t=10s)

89-90 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ytuSw6D4U0)

90-91 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-WxOHHo9XE)

91-92 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNGhNxpZP2o)

92-93 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfFgzgfotts)

I think that having the skills is only part of the equation. Im sure there's high school kids out there that have the skills to do some of the things MJ did.

But...

What separates players like MJ, Kobe and others is their ability to execute them consistently against the best players in the world. Not just that, but the ability to know how and when to do certain things, the ability to take over games and be in command etc.etc.

We're witnessing a young MJ demonstrate some of these skills that some believe he only developed later in his career. And as the stats and highlights show, he was consistent and effective. MJ wasn't solely slashing and dunking on players, I'm sure that he got less layups and close to the rim shots than Wade did. He had to rely on all types of mid range jump shots. And the constant defensive looks/attention he received forced him to react, be creative and utilize most of his skills.

Of course, as players one gets more consistent in every aspect and MJ is no exception. But MJ was far more developed as a player than people gave him credit for. I think what changed the most was his situation/environment. The team needed MJ to play differently, the defense forced MJ to adapt to another style, so he did. If MJ had to rely on his turnaround since his 3rd year in the same capacity that he did during the 2nd peat than he could've done so just as easily. Main difference between 1st peat and 2nd peat MJ?

If MJ was in the post he could easily spin past his man (or double team) and either dunk it or lay it in (during 1st peat).

MJ during his 2nd peat in that same situation couldn't spin and elude his defender (double team) as easily. He also had to conserve some of his energy and legs, so he shot the fadeaway turnaround.

In both peats, he could shoot the turnaround.... but he didn't have to (as much) in the 1st peat.

[juju151111]

Dude, were talking about michael j:facepalm :facepalm ordan, I'm baseing my pov off quotes from michael jordan. As well as clips etc.
Ok the ultimate quote then is MJ saying he was 97% in his 2nd 3 peat. Thread should be closed now according to you right? MJ himself said it so now wat?:violin:

[Da_Realist]

Well said, andgar :applause:

[97 bulls]

Ok the ultimate quote then is MJ saying he was 97% in his 2nd 3 peat. Thread should be closed now according to you right? MJ himself said it so now wat?:violin:
I never said he was more athletic or even at the same level. I said he compensated for that loss in different ways. Why this doesn't reigister is beyond me

[Indian guy]

No one's saying his game wasnt complete. But his footwork, strength, post game, and fadeaway were all more refined post retirement

This is true if we're talking about 80's MJ, but the difference in terms of polish between 1st 3peat MJ and 2nd 3peat MJ is 5% at best. He's better in the post(all perimeter players are in their 30's) and squares up better on his off-the-dribble fadeaways(a function of regressed athleticism, which improves body balance), but that's about it. I don't buy the strength argument. 91-92 MJ was pretty much the same size as 95-96 MJ.

[Asukal]

I never said he was more athletic or even at the same level. I said he compensated for that loss in different ways. Why this doesn't reigister is beyond me

True. Then what? This still doesn't prove 96-98 MJ is better than 91-93 MJ. Thread title is about 1st peat MJ vs 2nd peat MJ, we are not talking about just fadeaways or post ups but their overall game. We get it you prefer old MJ, but he is not better than his younger self and that's a fact. :pimp:

[Jacks3]

I'm sure you'd love for 96-98 Jordan to be better cause that's the only version Kobe is close to.
:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

03/06/07 Kobe> Any version of MJ.

[Asukal]

03/06/07 Kobe> Wizards version of MJ.

Fixed. :pimp:

[juju151111]

I never said he was more athletic or even at the same level. I said he compensated for that loss in different ways. Why this doesn't reigister is beyond me
Nobody is talking about that. The topic is which version is superior and the 1 st 3 pest was. I don't care wat he compensated for, just which version is better. Thats all we are discussing. MJ had more stamina,speed,quickness, and defense. He didn't have to take has much plays off because he was young.

[juju151111]

03/06/07 Kobe> Any version of MJ.
:oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

^^ I could post more but I'm saving it for a group of highlights I will post soon. Trust me. Dude was incredibly skilled in the early 90's.


Just posted it.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240755

If I'm not mistaken, there are more than 20 mins of fadeaways and post ups in that video. He had the whole package in the early 90's.