Ive heard it said that 2003-2004 was the NBA at its low point. Thinking about it.....

[Kblaze8855]

I might agree.

Lot of odd shit went down. One of the less respected title teams(not that they deserve it). The MVP race had Jermain Oneal finish 3rd and Peja 4th. The "Dreamteam" lakers lost in uneventfull fashion.

But what really stood out to me...the player of the month winners.


One month aside for Peja and Kobe KG swept the west. The east?

Ready yourself...

Baron Davis(we were talking about him as MVP...I remember it well)
Jermaine Oneal
Michael Redd
Kenyon Martn
Lamar Odom

And finally?

Jamaal ****ing Magloire

Doesnt that just make you almost throw up in your mouth?

One day kids are gonna look at that season and ask what happened to the NBA.

The Pistons held like 7-8 teams in a row under 70 points. Kobe was scoring like 24 a game back and forth to court.

The biggest moment of the season was Fishers shot in the second round.

If its not the low point...is it at least the modern lowpoint?

Perhaps sitting aside the 99 half season which had its issues for obvious reasons.

[DuMa]

i remember the peja talk for him being the 'best player in the league' or best player on the kings. that was so much garbage

[Jacks3]

Best defensive year in history.

[NugzHeat3]

It was terrible ever since 1998 or so with 1999 and 2004 as its two lowest points.

It kept going downhill ever since Toronto and Vancouver got franchises, teams becoming slow, games were ugly defensive struggles and the early 90s drafts were kind of weak. Those mid 80s draftees were on the decline. Jordan just covered it up in the late 90s.

2001 had the potential to be great if Hill and Zo didn't go down. The West was great that year.

[RRR3]

Some other oddities:

*Stephon Marbury led the NBA in assists
*Tracy McGrady was the only player in the NBA to average more than 24.2 PPG and he only shot 42%. Peja and KG tied for 2nd in PPG. Weird year on offense for sure.
*Derek Fisher and Kyle Korver both shot 35.2 percent :facepalm Korver shot 39.1 percent on threes, however.
*Eddie House shot 37.5 % from three, but 35.9% overall. :facepalm
*Antoine Walker took 305 three pointers. He made 82 of them (26.9 percent) :roll:

[DMV2]

Hornets Baron Davis was playoff beast, though. :bowdown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfVxMYsKwlg (a year earlier but he was still a beast in his final years as a Hornet)

[97 bulls]

Wasn't 04 the year the dreamteam really stunk it up in the olymmpics?

[NugzHeat3]

Wasn't 04 the year the dreamteam really stunk it up in the olymmpics?
Yeah it was.

To be fair though, that was a terribly built team. If the 2003 FIBA team wasn't broken apart for a variety of reasons, they would have mopped the floor with any of those international teams.

[inclinerator]

wasnt the league ppg leader 24 points or something? nvm 28

[ShaqAttack3234]

2004 was interesting, but disappointing.

We finally saw KG with a good cast, but I still wonder what would've happened if Cassell didn't get injured.

What would have happened if Malone had stayed healthy? He was very important to that Laker team.

And there were some other injuries to key stars(though 2003 was worse in that regard as far as the playoffs).

But I'm glad that I saw that 2004 Piston team, a really great team and the best defensive team that I've ever seen.


Some other oddities:

*Stephon Marbury led the NBA in assists

Well, for total assists, yeah, but per game, the top 3 were like this.

1.Jason Kidd- 9.2 (numbers would have probably been a bit better if not for the injuries late in the season)
2.Stephon Marbury- 8.9
3.Steve Nash- 8.8

That wasn't uncommon for Marbury, he was usually around 8-9 apg. And he actually was a good player back then. He wasn't always a joke. He led the Knicks to the playoffs and his cast really wasn't good. He was a flawed player with a questionable attitude, but not as bad as you'd think by reading what's written about him today.


*Tracy McGrady was the only player in the NBA to average more than 24.2 PPG and he only shot 42%. Peja and KG tied for 2nd in PPG. Weird year on offense for sure.

Yeah, that has always seemed strange to me. I remember the Peja for MVP talk too. But the scoring leaders make a little more sense when you consider that Kobe had the knee surgery, nagging injuries and legal issues, Shaq was declining and they both shared the ball with Gary Payton as well as Karl Malone(for a half season at least) and saw their shot attempts decrease.

Iverson did actually average 26.4 ppg himself, but only played in 48 games so he didn't qualify for the scoring title. So that takes out 3 players who were regularly at 25+ ppg.

Peja's scoring average makes a little more sense when you think about it as well. He had typically been a 20 ppg type scorer, but Chris Webber missed most of the season and Peja always seemed to put up bigger scoring numbers when Webber was out.


*Derek Fisher and Kyle Korver both shot 35.2 percent :facepalm Korver shot 39.1 percent on threes, however.

Not too strange, for Fisher at least. Derek shot 34.6% in the 2000 season.


*Antoine Walker took 305 three pointers. He made 82 of them (26.9 percent) :roll:

You gotta remember that you're talking about Toine. He made just 73 out 285 in 2000 as well. That's 25.6%.

[iamgine]

Some positives:

- The year Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony came out
- Garnett was MVP, Tim Duncan went second
- Ron Artest, first non big man DPOY winner since Gary Payton
- A team without true superstar won the title, proving that team ball works

[Smoke117]

It was terrible ever since 1998 or so with 1999 and 2004 as its two lowest points.

Pretty much. The early to mid 00's was just an incredibly weak era in the NBA in general. I would say 2001 was the weakest though and as you said it had a lot to do with injuries. I'm pretty positive the Sixers could have never got passed the heat in 2001 if Zo had been playing and healthy that season. The east was just atrocious, period. In the west, the Lakers were the only great team after the Blazers imploded. The Kings just weren't there yet and this was the Spurs era where they had no notable guards (besides Derek Anderson...yeah) and Robinson was aging quickly. I'll never understand why the 2001 Lakers are held in such high esteem when they pretty much had no competition. Yeah maybe one of these teams should have been able to take a game so it is impressive to not lose in your run to the finals, but it still wasn't against any teams of note. There was no Blazers of 2000 or Kings of 2002 to battle.

[RRR3]

Some Notable players with high PPG and their FG% from 2003-03:

Tracy McGrady 28 PPG 41.7 FG%
Paul Pierce 23 PPG 40.2 FG%
LeBron James 20.9 PPG 41.7 FG%
Vince Carter 22.5 PPG 41.7 FG%
Jermaine O'Neal (a PF/C remember) 20.1 PPG 43.4 FG%
Baron Davis 22.9 PPG 39.5 FG% :roll:
Jamal Crawford 17.3 PPG 38.6 FG% :roll:
Latrell Sprewell 16.8 PPG 40.9 FG%
Eddie Jones 17.3 PPG 40.9 FG%
Steve Francis 16.6 PPG 40.3 FG%
Chauncey Billups 16.9 PPG 39.4 FG% :roll:
Gilbert Arenas 19.6 PPG 39.2 FG% :roll:
Allen Iverson 26.4 PPG 38.7 FG% :roll:
Jason Kidd 15.5 PPG 38.4 FG% :roll:

[Jacks3]

All those guys probably shoot 4-5% higher in the weak 80's/early 90's.

[Legends66NBA7]

It indeed was a low point in 2004.

That's why after that season the NBA started changing the rules to open up the game.

[AngelEyes]

Hornets Baron Davis was playoff beast, though. :bowdown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfVxMYsKwlg (a year earlier but he was still a beast in his final years as a Hornet)

In the 2003-04 season Baron Davis shot 39.5% from the field and attempted 8.7 threes a game while only hitting at 32.1%. In his final 18 games with the hornets in the 2004-05 season Davis 36.6% from the field and attempted 7.6 threes a game while again only hitting at 32.1 %.

That's a beast?! You've got to be kidding me?! That's absolutely pathetic.

[RRR3]

In the 2003-04 season Baron Davis shot 39.5% from the field and attempted 8.7 threes a game while only hitting at 32.1%. In his final 18 games with the hornets in the 2004-05 season Davis 36.6% from the field and attempted 7.6 threes a game while again only hitting at 32.1 %.

That's a beast?! You've got to be kidding me?! That's absolutely pathetic.
:facepalm Turribleness

[Boston C's]

Some Notable players with high PPG and their FG% from 2003-03:

Tracy McGrady 28 PPG 41.7 FG%
Paul Pierce 23 PPG 40.2 FG%
LeBron James 20.9 PPG 41.7 FG%
Vince Carter 22.5 PPG 41.7 FG%
Jermaine O'Neal (a PF/C remember) 20.1 PPG 43.4 FG%
Baron Davis 22.9 PPG 39.5 FG% :roll:
Jamal Crawford 17.3 PPG 38.6 FG% :roll:
Latrell Sprewell 16.8 PPG 40.9 FG%
Eddie Jones 17.3 PPG 40.9 FG%
Steve Francis 16.6 PPG 40.3 FG%
Chauncey Billups 16.9 PPG 39.4 FG% :roll:
Gilbert Arenas 19.6 PPG 39.2 FG% :roll:
Allen Iverson 26.4 PPG 38.7 FG% :roll:
Jason Kidd 15.5 PPG 38.4 FG% :roll:

Ray Allen shot 44,39,90 with 23 ppg which was pretty good considering those numbers

[Boston C's]

All those guys probably shoot 4-5% higher in the weak 80's/early 90's.

plz stop tryin to up your boy kobe subliminally its embarrasing... everyone knows the 90's was a better era then the mid 2000's for bball

[catch24]

What's not to like about GREAT team defense being played? Or...T-Mac vs. Lebron, T-Mac vs. Kobe, Lebron vs. Melo, Lakers dream-team, KG finally winning MVP over Duncan? What about those grind-it-out defensive battles the Pistons and Pacers played? Those were pretty awesome. I'd say prior to the Finals (for obvious reasons), that years postseason was really exciting.

Wade single-handedly putting Miami on his back upsetting Davis' Hornets, Kings/Wolves going 7 - KG goes bananas in that 7th game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VtZht_8t4), Spurs vs. Lakers - Fisher's epic 0.4 buzzer-beater (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mav2iBA1cwo&feature=fvst), Pistons Pacers going a physical 6 games - Tayshaun Prince's GW block in G2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spi-4_6Ugdg) Nets going 7... and KG vs Shaq/Kobe pt 2.

I thought it was an all-around fantastic year, personally.

[AMISTILLILL]

Even though I enjoyed it, particularly the Pistons winning it all, I definitely didn't pay as close attention to that season as I ordinarily would.

[catch24]

It indeed was a low point in 2004.

Good defense tends to bore people.

[magnax1]

I honestly feel that 03 was much worse, and 04 was the beginning of a slow growth period of the league that's really made it great today. Look at the conference finals teams in 03. Nets, Pistons, Spurs and Mavs (Dirk injured) I can't be the only one that thinks that any of the 04 conference finals teams, excluding the Twolves because of the fact that they were playing a guy who was a bench warmer at point guard, would mop the floor with the 03 teams? On top of that, you had TMac who was probably the best perimeter player since early 90s Jordan playing with a bunch of nobodies, AI wasn't 100% for the second year in a row, I don't think anyone won 50 games in the east (might be wrong though) The best team in the regular season, the Kings, were derailed by injuries (that really ruined the playoffs for me) 03 was just a God awful year for the NBA to me, and while there might have been more all time great individual players in 03, lots of them were stuck in bad situations.

[Peteballa]

I remember that year so well, was one of my favorite NBA seasons ever. It was Wade's rookie year, and our lineup was

Dwyane Wade
Eddie Jones
Caron Butler
Lamar Odom
Brian Grant
bench:
Rafer Alston
Rasual Butler
Udonis Haslem

mannn those were the days. i loved going to our games. probably my favorite moment of the entire season;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3H77gIpYi8

we upset the hornets and then almost upset the powerhouse pacers in the second round. probably my favorite Heat season ever.

[RRR3]

I honestly feel that 03 was much worse, and 04 was the beginning of a slow growth period of the league that's really made it great today. Look at the conference finals teams in 03. Nets, Pistons, Spurs and Mavs (Dirk injured) I can't be the only one that thinks that any of the 04 conference finals teams, excluding the Twolves because of the fact that they were playing a guy who was a bench warmer at point guard, would mop the floor with the 03 teams? On top of that, you had TMac who was probably the best perimeter player since early 90s Jordan playing with a bunch of nobodies, AI wasn't 100% for the second year in a row, I don't think anyone won 50 games in the east (might be wrong though) The best team in the regular season, the Kings, were derailed by injuries (that really ruined the playoffs for me) 03 was just a God awful year for the NBA to me, and while there might have been more all time great individual players in 03, lots of them were stuck in bad situations.

I'll go get some interesting stats from 2002-03. Back in a few minutes...

[Legends66NBA7]

That was one of the many problems with the players of that year. Most of the players were one and done from college. They didn't really grasp the team play that is needed to win. 2000's - present era is way down from the 80's and 90's in terms of passing.

Too much isolation play, bad shot selections (jacking), and the league needed to open up the game since there were lot of low I.Q. players in the league on offense. Offense really stunk it up.

So when the NBA was aware what was happening, they did these rules changes:

2004-05
-New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.

2006-07
-On a clear-path-to-the-basket foul, the team that is fouled is awarded two free throw attempt and the ball on the sideline.

Not surprisingly, there were players from the beginning of that era after 05 having career numbers all across the board on offense.

[magnax1]

You can pick out specific years, but 99-04 was worse then anything except maybe the mid 70s.

[RRR3]

2002-03 interesting facts:

*Kedrick Brown shot 39 threes. He made three of them. :facepalm
*Andre Miller thought it was a good idea to take 108 threes, despite the fact that he made them at a 21.3 percent clip. :facepalm
*Bruce Bowen somehow shot 44.1 percent from three but 40.4 percent from the free throw line. :hammerhead:
*Ben Wallace had 1126 rebounds and 506 points. :wtf:

[BankShot]

*Bruce Bowen somehow shot 44.1 percent from three but 40.4 percent from the free throw line.

I definitely remember that one.... watching games with friends or family, and talking about how its remotely possible for someone to be markedly worse at a much, much, easier shot. :roll:

[RRR3]

It always bothers me that Tracy McGrady didn't win MVP in 2002-03. Yeah, he's my favorite player so I'm biased, but I don't think people remember how ****ing incredible he was that year.

League leading stats bolded:

32.1 PPG/6.5 RPG/5.5 APG/1.7 SPG/0.8 BPG/45.7 FG%/38.6 3P%/79.3 FT%/30.3 PER/0.262 WS/48

And check out his team: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html

Derrick Rose won MVP this year because people seemed to think he was so valuable because his team was garbage without him (not true). Why didn't McGrady get that kind of logic applied to him? I know Tim Duncan had a brilliant year in 2002-03 as well, as did Shaq and Kobe, but T-Mac will always be the MVP in my mind that year.

[RRR3]

I definitely remember that one.... watching games with friends or family, and talking about how its remotely possible for someone to be markedly worse at a much, much, easier shot. :roll:
I know. That shit legitimately bothered me.

[Legends66NBA7]

Good defense tends to bore people.

You can thank the offense being played for helping out the defense.

1999 was a shortened season anyways.

For one, there was too much isolation one one one basketball being played and there was no ball movement. But it wasn't due to being superior defense being played. Low I.Q. basketball players and poor shot selection with those iso plays helped the defense out a lot. Predictablility.

[catch24]

You can thank the offense being played for helping out the defense.

1999 was a shortened season anyways.

For one, there was too much isolation one one one basketball being played and there was no ball movement. But it wasn't due to being superiors defense being played. Low I.Q. basketball players and poor shot selection with those iso plays helped the defense out a lot. Predictablility.

I'd rather go by the facts; which favor team DRTG being at its absolute peak from '99-04.

I'm not impressed with copy & pasta either, Legends. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122251

[Legends66NBA7]

I'd rather go by the facts; which favor team DRTG being at its absolute peak from '99-04.

I'm not impressed with copy & pasta either, Legends. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122251

But the rating doesn't take into account the rules changes. The fact of the lockout, one and done players, lack of ball movement, poor shot selection, low I.Q. players, etc... Those things all factor in.

What did i copy and paste, the rules on nba.com ? The rules i could find on the internet ? I specifically showed you the rules post 04, did i not ?

Speaking of that post, that's wrong. I don't agree at all to astreik 50 point games, what purpose does that serve ?

[Replay32]

2004 did suck pretty bad. Definitely a weird year.

[Indian guy]

The only saving grace of that season was David upsetting Goliath in the Finals. There was basically no story worth covering otherwise(excluding LA, of course). TV ratings were at record lows. The level of play even worse. From an individual standpoint, every top-level star had a down year outside of KG. Teams couldn't score to save their lives. 100+ points was only possible if Dallas or Sacramento were involved. I remember both TNT and ESPN analysts routinely mocking the level-of-play that year, and in general the perception surrounding the league was that talent was severely lacking. Games were deemed unwatchable if it didn't involve Sacramento, Dallas or LA. And in the post-Kobe-rape world, thinly veiled racism directed at the league was rampant in the media. It was the NBA's lowest point since the 70's.

The rule change in 04-05, some major trades(Shaq->Miami and Nash->Phoenix) and the emergence of LeBron and Wade really saved the NBA the following season. And with further maturation of those young superstars, Kobe hitting his prime and some great draft classes, the league's only gone from strength-to-strength since. It all started with the rule change in 04-05 though. That was huge. The league had become way too obsessed with defense to compensate for the lack of talent otherwise. Something needed to be done.

[catch24]

But the rating doesn't take into account the rules changes.

"Rules changes" have been going on for decades. Listen to this, particularly what Doug Collins says at 5:26 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2mDptOc1PQ#t=5m26s) (goes onto the 7:00 min mark or so) - and this was in '95...

There's just no way players' shooting percentages dropped 3 and for some 4% points during a two year-stretch and back up a year later because of some pseudo-belief that players were 'lower iq' just a year or two earlier. That makes zero sense.

You got your information from that thread, and re-worded what you wanted to type. At least that's what google says :oldlol:

[Dave3]

It always bothers me that Tracy McGrady didn't win MVP in 2002-03. Yeah, he's my favorite player so I'm biased, but I don't think people remember how ****ing incredible he was that year.

League leading stats bolded:

32.1 PPG/6.5 RPG/5.5 APG/1.7 SPG/0.8 BPG/45.7 FG%/38.6 3P%/79.3 FT%/30.3 PER/0.262 WS/48

And check out his team: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html

Derrick Rose won MVP this year because people seemed to think he was so valuable because his team was garbage without him (not true). Why didn't McGrady get that kind of logic applied to him? I know Tim Duncan had a brilliant year in 2002-03 as well, as did Shaq and Kobe, but T-Mac will always be the MVP in my mind that year.
Because the Bulls won 62 games and the Magic won 41. That's a key part in MVP voting. What really irked me though was Kobe finishing ahead of Tmac in the MVP voting....

[NugzHeat3]

I remember that year so well, was one of my favorite NBA seasons ever. It was Wade's rookie year, and our lineup was

Dwyane Wade
Eddie Jones
Caron Butler
Lamar Odom
Brian Grant
bench:
Rafer Alston
Rasual Butler
Udonis Haslem

mannn those were the days. i loved going to our games. probably my favorite moment of the entire season;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3H77gIpYi8

we upset the hornets and then almost upset the powerhouse pacers in the second round. probably my favorite Heat season ever.
:applause: Wade was a beast after that wrist injury. That team was really good after the All-Star break. I think they had a long ass winning streak at home.

Then Wade hit 2 GWs in the series vs the Hornets and we gave the Pacers a tough fight.

They had depth and a balanced team but no star talent, kind of like the opposite with today's team.

[Jacks3]

What's strange is that the previous year you had 5 guys putting up amazing seasons (KG/Duncan/Kobe/T-Mac/Duncan) and then all them saw huge drop-offs in play the following season except for KG. Weird.

[chips93]

I'd rather go by the facts; which favor team DRTG being at its absolute peak from '99-04.

I'm not impressed with copy & pasta either, Legends. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122251

:facepalm

if you put the worst offensive team against a decent defensive team, the decent team will shut them down, and look good on defense. now extrapolate this over an entire league. say every team just got worse at offense, it would be reflected in the defensive stats. so posting that its a fact that the defense was better in this era due to defensive rating is incorrect. they are playing against different offenses than other eras, so this point is moot.

average offensive rating of any specific year = average defensive rating of any specific year.

last year's average offensive rating was 107.3, guess what the defensive rating was? 107.3

i cant believe this has to be posted.

[RRR3]

Because the Bulls won 62 games and the Magic won 41. That's a key part in MVP voting. What really irked me though was Kobe finishing ahead of Tmac in the MVP voting....
The Magic won 42 iirc, but they would have been horrendous w/o T-Mac. And yeah, Kobe (and Shaq for that matter) getting more votes still bothers me. Duncan and T-Mac were the 2 guys with the best case for MVP that year IMO.

[Legends66NBA7]

"Rules changes" have been going on for decades. Listen to this, particularly what Doug Collins says at 5:26 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2mDptOc1PQ#t=5m26s) - and this was in '95...

There's just no way players' shooting percentages dropped 3 and for some 4% points during a two year-stretch and back up a year later because of some pseudo-belief that players were 'lower iq' just a year or two earlier. That makes zero sense.

You got your information from that thread, and re-worded what you wanted to type. At least that's what google says :oldlol:

That's a good quote by coach Collins, but i've been aware about the rules changes in the NBA since the first true zone defense not being allowed since the 30's. I specifically am talking about the rules changes post 04, not about the one in 95 or 93 or anything that happened pre 99.

Well what about the more 3's been taken ? Just look at this thread about some of the players like Baron Davis and Antoine Walker jacking 3's like crazy.
Players attempting or even jacking more 3's are going to bring that % down.

Lack of big men posting up and getting better look at the basket and settling for the outside shot is going to bring the % down.

I didn't necessarily mean soley on the fact of low I.Q. players but there is more factors involved and i stated them already.

No, I didn't get my information from that thread (though, scrolling through it now I can see from both sides there is an exgerration. And incredibally long, good read though, not that it means much). I don't exactly know what google is trying to say, but google would be wrong in this case.

I live in T.O., so my first source to me about anything major about the game (if i didn't know it) is always either players, coaches, commentators, etc.. and then i look it up to confirm it. Jack Armstrong, Raptors color commentator, always talks about some of those rules changes and the past game when he gets the chance. I've been able to talk to him once while i was at the A.C.C, along with Leo Rautins. He answered some of my questions and i got a certain understanding from where I stand on this subject and formed an opinion on it.

Sorry that you feel differently on it, catch. We shall agree to disagree.

[catch24]

:facepalm

if you put the worst offensive team against a decent defensive team, the decent team will shut them down, and look good on defense. now extrapolate this over an entire league. say every team just got worse at offense, it would be reflected in the defensive stats. so posting that its a fact that the defense was better in this era due to defensive rating is incorrect. they are playing against different offenses than other eras, so this point is moot.

Are you high? Defensive rating goes hand-in-hand with possession, and pace. Whether teams then ran more and 'faced different offenses' is irrelevant. The fact I was alluding to was the game from 99-04 was dramatically slowed down and heavily reliant on team defense - hence better defense being played.


i cant believe this has to be posted.

I can't either, considering how irrelevant it was.

[chips93]

Defensive rating goes hand-in-hand with possession, and pace. Whether teams then ran more and 'faced different offenses' is irrelevant. The fact I was alluding to was the game from 99-04 was dramatically slowed down and heavily reliant on defense - hence better defense being played.


as does offense

what you dont seem to understand is that posting defensive ratings, or saying that the defensive ratings peaked back then is irrelevant.

they are inherently tied to the offense that they are facing

[NugzHeat3]

What's strange is that the previous year you had 5 guys putting up amazing seasons (KG/Duncan/Kobe/T-Mac/Duncan) and then all them saw huge drop-offs in play the following season except for KG. Weird.
I think some of those are understandable. Kobe had both off court and on court issues; he really was much better than his 2004 stats show. He had knee surgery in the 2003 off season too if I am not mistaken. They had to integrate Malone and Payton in the offense and that was the pinnacle of the Kobe vs Shaq feud.

Duncan didn't really decline; he just played less minutes which effected his per game averages.

TMAC was just that much better in 2003. Its an outlier in his career. He went back to performing at roughly his 2002 level that year. They did have that 0-19 start though so he probably wasn't mentally into it.

[catch24]

What's strange is that the previous year you had 5 guys putting up amazing seasons (KG/Duncan/Kobe/T-Mac/Duncan) and then all them saw huge drop-offs in play the following season except for KG. Weird.

Very strange... and before the "rule changes".

[RRR3]

I think some of those are understandable. Kobe had both off court and on court issues; he really was much better than his 2004 stats show. He had knee surgery in the 2003 off season too if I am not mistaken. They had to integrate Malone and Payton in the offense and that was the pinnacle of the Kobe vs Shaq feud.

Duncan didn't really decline; he just played less minutes which effected his per game averages.

TMAC was just that much better in 2003. Its an outlier in his career. He went back to performing at roughly his 2002 level that year. They did have that 0-19 start though so he probably wasn't mentally into it.

No, T-Mac gave up in 2004. After that year, he started to decline due to back problems. He was easily capable of having another year like 2002-03. It wasn't an outlier at all.

[NugzHeat3]

No, T-Mac gave up in 2004. After that year, he started to decline due to back problems. He was easily capable of having another year like 2002-03. It wasn't an outlier at all.
Its an outlier because he never approached that level in his career for a consistent period of time.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda is nice.

[RRR3]

Its an outlier because he never approached that level in his career for a consistent period of time.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda is nice.
Hmph.:mad:

[catch24]

as does offense

what you dont seem to understand is that posting defensive ratings, or saying that the defensive ratings peaked back then is irrelevant.

they are inherently tied to the offense that they are facing

Not all offenses can score just because they turn up the pace and decide to run - and against an elite half-court defensive team? Forget about it.

Just as Bird and Ainge said a couple years ago, their era favored more scoring and less defense. Whether they could have posted better defensive numbers had their teams played more of a half-court style isn't relevant to me.

[Legends66NBA7]

Very strange... and before the "rule changes".

There were significant rules changes happening since 1999-2000, still.

And a bunch of B.S.

Kobe was going through that whole rape trial and didn't rehab fully and properly as he would have to that summer when he was coming of knee surgery. Then he had to come back to a team that needed him to adjust to Karl Malone and Gary Payton. He averaged 23.2 shots per game in 03 for 41.5 minutes, 18.1 shots per game in 04 for 37.6 minutes. Obvious drop off due to different scenarios.

T-Mac was playing for an underwhelming Orlando Magic team, that started 1-19 that season, and finsihed with 21-61 record. So mentally, he was propbably not giving it 100% every night. Still ended up with the scoring title, though.

Duncan was playing about 3 minutes less that season. And I don't even see this "hugh lay off" Jacks is talking about:

03 - 23.3ppg 12.9reb 3.9ast 0.7stl 2.9blk 51.3%fg 71.0%ft
04 - 22.3ppg 12.4reb 3.1ast 0.9stl 2.7blk 50.1%fg 59.9%ft

Yeah his numbers are down, but there's no "huge layoff" there. He also missed more games that year.

[Jacks3]

Well the huge drop-off is more about his post-season performance obviously.

And he wasn't as good as in the RS either, so overall it is a pretty significant drop compared to 2003.

[catch24]

There were significant rules changes happening since 1999-2000, still.

And a bunch of B.S.

Kobe was going through that whole rape trial and didn't rehab fully and properly as he would have to that summer when he was coming of knee surgery. Then he had to come back to a team that needed him to adjust to Karl Malone and Gary Payton. He averaged 23.2 shots per game in 03 for 41.5 minutes, 18.1 shots per game in 04 for 37.6 minutes. Obvious drop off due to different scenarios.

T-Mac was playing for an underwhelming Orlando Magic team, that started 1-19 that season, and finsihed with 21-61 record. So mentally, he was propbably not giving it 100% every night. Still ended up with the scoring title, though.

Duncan was playing about 3 minutes less that season. And I don't even see this "hugh lay off" Jacks is talking about:

03 - 23.3ppg 12.9reb 3.9ast 0.7stl 2.9blk 51.3%fg 71.0%ft
04 - 22.3ppg 12.4reb 3.1ast 0.9stl 2.7blk 50.1%fg 59.9%ft

Yeah his numbers are down, but there's no "huge layoff" there. He also missed more games that year.

I hear you, and that's all I was really trying to say. Rule-changes have been going on since the days of Wilt & Russell. Seeing the two best perimeter scorers at the time take such a downward spiral was strange, but you cannot ignore the circumstances that you pointed out.

I'm of the opinion most legends and all-time greats would 'get theirs' no matter what ERA they played in.

[Legends66NBA7]

I hear you, and that's all I was really trying to say. Rule-changes have been going on since the days of Wilt & Russell. Seeing the two best perimeter scorers at the time take such a downward spiral was strange, but you cannot ignore the circumstances that you pointed out.

I'm of the opinion most legends and all-time greats would 'get theirs' no matter what ERA they played in.

Yup, I agree. Scenarios maybe always vary, but greatness would still result into greatness, no matter which era. Period.

[D-Wade316]

Yup, I agree. Scenarios maybe always vary, but greatness would still result into greatness, no matter which era. Period.
I have been saying this for a long time now. Guys like West, Oscar, and Baylor would dominate the league today.

[rmt]

I definitely remember that one.... watching games with friends or family, and talking about how its remotely possible for someone to be markedly worse at a much, much, easier shot. :roll:

It's probably that he had lots of opportunity at 3pt shots (doubles off TD, penetrate and dish off Manu and TP) vs almost never getting to the free throw line. Besides his outstanding defense, he had to have some offense so his defender wouldn't cheat off him. Just goes to show what practice and hard work can achieve - leading the league in 3pt % and not being a natural "shooter." I used to cringe when he tried anything else but a corner 3.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You can thank the offense being played for helping out the defense.

1999 was a shortened season anyways.

For one, there was too much isolation one one one basketball being played and there was no ball movement. But it wasn't due to being superior defense being played. Low I.Q. basketball players and poor shot selection with those iso plays helped the defense out a lot. Predictablility.

Not to say that this isn't a valid point and needs to be considered, but aside from even team offenses, look at individual stars. There were tons of players with phenomenal individual ability and yet very few were capable of efficient high scoring seasons.

The game had clearly been changing towards a slower, more defensive-oriented style since the late 80's/early 90's. Open mid-range jumpers weren't as easily available, defensive schemes were better, double teams were harder. And the rip the ball out of the net and run right after a made basket style was all but gone.

The statistics back this up, and to me it's obvious when watching the games that '98-'04 was the toughest era defensively. It was a natural progression starting with Detroit, then New York and eventually we saw more teams win with this style such as San Antonio and early/mid 00's Pistons.

Even a team like the Kings who ran a great offense in their best year didn't have an offensive rating that would've stood out that much in the 80's/early 90's or the past few years.



03 - 23.3ppg 12.9reb 3.9ast 0.7stl 2.9blk 51.3%fg 71.0%ft
04 - 22.3ppg 12.4reb 3.1ast 0.9stl 2.7blk 50.1%fg 59.9%ft

Yeah his numbers are down, but there's no "huge layoff" there. He also missed more games that year.

A big part of it was clearly his FT% which was erratic, one year it went from 62% to 80% so that will account for a decent amount of the small scoring difference and in this case, from 71% to 60%. Not to mention that Duncan had more injuries that season which lowered his minutes and numbers. I remember reading before Duncan's injury about the race between KG and Duncan for MVP, after that, it pretty much became KG's award to lose and he ultimately became the 2nd closest to win the award unanimously.

But as far as worse seasons? '99 lockout(enjoyed the Knicks run, but outside of that the playoffs sucked). '02 wasn't the best playoffs and was one of the worst Eastern Conferences ever. LA/Kings was classic, though.

'03 was a good regular season, but the playoffs were really bad. Not only does Sacramento lose C-Webb, but then Dallas loses Dirk and to top it all off, the East sucked again.

'07 may have been the worst. Kobe's scoring streaks were entertaining, but the East may have been the worst ever and the West playoffs were horrendous. The Dallas/Golden State series was fun to watch as it was happening, but it ruined the rest of the playoffs, particularly with the suspension killing what could have been a better series between Phoenix and San Antonio.

[knicksman]

It always bothers me that Tracy McGrady didn't win MVP in 2002-03. Yeah, he's my favorite player so I'm biased, but I don't think people remember how ****ing incredible he was that year.

League leading stats bolded:

32.1 PPG/6.5 RPG/5.5 APG/1.7 SPG/0.8 BPG/45.7 FG%/38.6 3P%/79.3 FT%/30.3 PER/0.262 WS/48

And check out his team: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html

Derrick Rose won MVP this year because people seemed to think he was so valuable because his team was garbage without him (not true). Why didn't McGrady get that kind of logic applied to him? I know Tim Duncan had a brilliant year in 2002-03 as well, as did Shaq and Kobe, but T-Mac will always be the MVP in my mind that year.

of course youre an idiot so you think hes an mvp that year

[knicksman]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/07/07/us/fivethirtyeight-0705-nba1/fivethirtyeight-0705-nba1-blog480.jpg

these data shows that its not. The league had the highest operating margin after the lockout which is 9.5% compared to 00 and 01, 2009 and 10 lakers. And the league also is better when jordan had its first retirement. The league is much more exciting if its hard to predict whos going to win. And the new jersey/san antonio and san antonio/cleveland year performed better than the year where lakers despite having the lowest finals ratings. And in fact the 2009-10 where it was lakers/boston, the greatest rivalry in sports, recorded the lowest and thats the reason why we are having a lockout right now. finals ratings are just for 7 games while there are 2460 regular season games.

[Rake2204]

As a Pistons fan, this was a strange thread to read. 2003-2004 in Auburn Hills was a blast through and through. The Pistons were great, even before they got hot and won the NBA championship. And when they acquired Rasheed at the deadline? Things got really real. And I don't mean in a "It was neat to watch my home team grind their way to victory by playing boring basketball" way.

Rather, I was legitimately entertained by their style of basketball. The Pistons were so frequently hitting on all cylinders that year that highlights would often ooze from their surface. I suppose it's undeniable to say I'm not biased though. It's just, monster blocks were awesome to watch. And those often led to fast break dunks at the other end. Further, there were a lot of nasty tip dunk opportunities that year. The Pistons surely would slow tempo after made baskets and whatnot, but they certainly didn't mind running off of turnovers or blocked shots.

Prime Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n9iw4D6txM

[SCdac]

Rather, I was legitimately entertained by their style of basketball.

Prime Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n9iw4D6txM

I'm pretty much in the same boat. The 03-05 Pistons and Spurs were some of my favorite teams to watch of the last decade. I had grown up watching defensive teams that San Antonio fielded in the 90's, but the early 2000's Spurs and Pistons took it to another level (other teams as well). Seeing how Larry Brown and Pop constructed some of the best defensive sets and schemes is really high up there for me, but it's weird, many people and casual fans would consider it boring. I thought it was some of the toughest, grittiest basketball at the time.

[Fatal9]

Prime Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n9iw4D6txM

I remember that sequence. It was right before I turned off the TV.

[Rake2204]

I remember that sequence. It was right before I turned off the TV.
It was just a non-stop party for Pistons fans from there on out. It felt like we had a 10-minute NBA Street Game Breaker. Interestingly, I think it started with an awkward Elden Campbell tip-dunk a minute earlier: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0xIMYkrrRA).

But then there were tip-dunks on tip-dunks, and rejections, and circus shots, and Lindsey Hunter and Mike James trapping at half court to force a turnover to begin the fourth. Then it all seemed to culminate in Ben's tip dunk on Shaq, where Rasheed can be seen rollicking in enjoyment thereafter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRkzVIKEvTI

It seemed like awesome plays just starting pouring in from every direction at the end there. And it was so satisfying. The only downfall was the house I was watching it all happen in happened to have a girl there who kept calling Corliss Williamson "Scoreless Corliss" because she was trying to sound knowledgeable. So annoying.

[DetroitPiston]

I'll just say that 03-04 was great for me because I got to see my team win a championship. I don't care what the rest of the season was like, you enjoy moments like that.

[Bigsmoke]

The Bulls were so boring to watch. They could never score.

The Pistons and Twolves were the only teams i like to watch. Even the Pacers were kind of boring.

Pistons - Broke points allowed records, The Wallaces, overall great team basketball...oh! and they beat the Lakers.. never been a Lakers fan.

Twolves - KG was really fun to watch back then, Cassell is only of my favorite PGs, Sprewell was also cool.