Muggsy Bogues video. Would you take him as your starting point?

[Kblaze8855]

It was requested on youtube a few times lately so here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hagVogC9EsQ


On one hand yes...hes 5'3'' 140 pounds. On the other...from 1990 to 1994 the only player to have more assists was John Stockton. He never turned the ball over. He played hard every second including much better defense than is expected of a player his size(in the video hes guarding Pippen, Drazen, and Jordan). He averaged 2 steals a game and 11 assists at one point. I remember late in his career Raptors raving about him being one of the best points they ever played with.

That be enough for you to start a guy who would at the moment...be the shortest player even in the WNBA?

And something else...the Bullets took him in the lottery. But many believe(Muggsy included) it was just for the freak show aspect of having both him and Manute. If true...

Biggest draft related bitch move ever?

[iamgine]

Offensively, he might be decent. Bringing up the ball, getting offense started, etc.

Defensively, it would be too easy for players to get open looks and overpower him.

Could work against some teams but ultimately no.

[pauk]

if i had no chance to pick somebody else... then i guess yes

[Kblaze8855]

He was a starter for many years. A starter on a 50 win team. he had games of like 15 points and 19-20 assists with 7 rebounds in big wins with the other teams guards doing nothing of note. Muggsy was a much bigger problem for your defense in theory than in practice. And he could always run the hell outta an offense. He had the 2 highest scoring games of his career at 35 on the Raptors with Vince.

I ****ed with Muggsy in his prime. Most around me did. It was Hornets country at the time.

[iamgine]

He was a starter for many years. A starter on a 50 win team. he had games of like 15 points and 19-20 assists with 7 rebounds in big wins with the other teams guards doing nothing of note. Muggsy was a much bigger problem for your defense in theory than in practice. And he could always run the hell outta an offense. He had the 2 highest scoring games of his career at 35 on the Raptors with Vince.

I ****ed with Muggsy in his prime. Most around me did. It was Hornets country at the time.
Well, to be fair the team was sucking for years with Muggs running the PG too. It's not like Muggs made the difference that they could be a 50 win team. It's like...current Derek Fisher. He's not very good but still the starter for a 50+ win team.

[blazerjimmy]

was always a fan of him - I mean, to be competitive at the NBA Level and only 5'3??? Tremendous!!! Would I like him as my starting PG??? If I could have "peak Muggsy" on my Blazers, then yes, I'd take him...a true competitor leading my young Blazers would work for me.

[inclinerator]

i wouldnt

[QuebecBaller]

his steals and blocks = :bowdown:

[Kblaze8855]

Well, to be fair the team was sucking for years with Muggs running the PG too. It's not like Muggs made the difference that they could be a 50 win team. It's like...current Derek Fisher. He's not very good but still the starter for a 50+ win team.

To be fair? He joined the Hornets in an expansion draft. How is using their records against him being fair? The moment they had a team that should have been decent it was. He didnt hold them back.

[SteveNashMVPcro]

On the suns?No

[iamgine]

Didn't really help much either. My point was you could replace him with Derek Fisher and still they would still win 50 games. He was okay...but had no size. That can definitely be exploited by a good team. I wouldn't want my starting PG to have that kind of obvious weakness.

[Kblaze8855]

Muggsy was too important to those offenses for me to assume fisher steps in. Especially current fisher. Muggsy was at times having months(18 game months) putting up 13/11 on 58% shooting with well over 2 steals game.

Games where they beat the Knicks, Jazz, Bulls and so on. had 18 points and 17 assists to beat the Shaq/Penny Magic the year they won 60. A team with 4 ball handlers 6'6'' and up. He matched or beat Fishers single game career high in assists 23 times...in the one season I checked.

I think people forgot(Or never cared to see) how much he was doing for those teams. He probably spoonfed LJ and Zo on 30% of their gield goals for a while there.

He wasnt just...not helping. He was out there getting PT at 5'3'' or a little less out of charity. He earned his spot and played well in it.

I know he could be exploited easily...in theory. But I just didnt see it in practice as much as one might assume. It wasnt as easy to itolate and abuse him as some might think. He wasnt big but he more than held his own in a lot of situations you might think he would get murdered. He wasnt gonna just let you go to town on him.

He had heart and a lot of pride. I understand not wanting him on your team. Im just saying a lot of the reasons why...were not really used against him or his team as much as one might guess.

[Scoooter]

:applause: at the Curb Your Enthusiasm clip. He was a good player. He'd really bother you if you were posting up and and had kind of loose handles. Everyone (myself included) loved the Hornets back then for some reason. I didn't even know where Charlotte was.

[magnax1]

Considering he was actually a pretty good defender, I'd take him. You couldn't really post him up and back him down (it's hard to explain why, but if you'd tried to post up a really short guy before, you'll get it) and he stayed in front of everyone very well. He was actually a really good point guard.

[iamgine]

Well in the playoff teams are good. A good coach would adjust to exploit Muggs. When I say not helping, I meant compared to if you get another decent PG. Muggs was at best replaceable. He wasn't some sort of great player. I'd rather look for another decent PG who doesn't have the massive height disadvantage.

[Scoooter]

Considering he was actually a pretty good defender, I'd take him. You couldn't really post him up and back him down (it's hard to explain why, but if you'd tried to post up a really short guy before, you'll get it) and he stayed in front of everyone very well. He was actually a really good point guard.
He was really strong. A little ball of muscle. You can see how thick his legs were in kblaze's video.

[Bigsmoke]

no i'm good

he's not that short. dude is only an inch shorter than Kendrick Lamar. :rockon:

[8BeastlyXOIAD]

no i'm good

he's not that short. dude is only an inch shorter than Kendrick Lamar. :rockon:

:wtf: Lamar is 5'4? :roll: :roll:

[Bigsmoke]

:wtf: Lamar is 5'4? :roll: :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3aRK4fhfxY


Come from a city where ****** show no remorse
And a corpse is just another hommy taking it's course
Of course my dream was to play in the Final Four
Till the twelfth grade came and I was only 5'4

[HylianNightmare]

on the magic?
no thanks

[redhonda76]

Muggsy ran the offense very well but his biggest weakness was his shot. His inability make a mid-range shot consistently was huge. I wouldn't want him to be my starting point guard but I do admire him to be able to beat the odds and play in the NBA for a long time.

[Reggie43]

Yes definitely. Who wouldnt want a guy who avgs so many assists with so little turnovers. and for all those who think that he would be easily exploited by the defense, I once heard that he was actually one of the hardest guards to post up due to his excellent frontal defense combined with his speed, quickness and unreal strength for a guy his size.

[Kblaze8855]

Im sure he spent his whole life dealing with guys assuming they were gonna post him up and have it easy. He had too much pride for that. If hes guarding MJ, Pippen, and Drazen posting him up you know hes not backing down from anyone.

[ukplayer4]

k-blaze as always making a great case here (and backing it up with another nice vidoe, props as always to you) surely mugsy in his prime would start on some teams these days. i also remember him being tough defensively, players couldnt even get it across halfcourt at times...

[bumpyknucks]

I always felt like he never found the perfect situation for him (few players do I guess tho) but ideally....he

[Kblaze8855]

Yea MJ said "Shooti t you ****ing midget!" and destroyed his confidence. Ruthless.

And yea he probably should have been a backup. But he was fine in his role.

[Rake2204]

Of course I'd take Muggsy Bogues as my starting point guard. Then again, I suppose it'd depend upon who my other guards were, but Bogues was excellent. 2 steals per game, a 5:1 assists-to-turnovers ratio? It's not as if Bogues survived in a league full of non-athletes around his same size. He's always been smaller than everyone and he's always thrived.

Now, I found this thread through Google because I was looking to see if Muggsy college clips already existed on YouTube. Turns out they do, but I'd already uploaded my video, so here's my short Muggsy contribution - much of which can be seen in KBlaze's video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O69fVdyqLfs&feature=youtu.be

[Penny4MVP2k]

Are you guys kidding me?! With today's rules, Muggsy would be a beast!

Sure, defenses would eventually sag off him to cut off his drive, but there's a guy out there with a SOMEWHAT similar game today who destroyed Miami yesterday...

As far as making him pay on the defensive end, I mean, this guy played in an era where guys like Magic, GP, Penny, Cassell, Mark Jackson and later Jason Kidd, Billups, etc. were the prominent post-up guards, but I never really recall a time where he was regularly exposed.

I recall watching some Magic/Hornets games in the past and Penny would never really test Muggsy's ball-hawking; electing to pick up his dribble at earlier than he normally would. In fact, I vaguely recall Penny saying how difficult it was to post Muggsy, cuz Muggsy would get so much leverage, which would prevent him from getting the position he would want.

With today's zone defenses, lack of hand checking, and the lost art of the post-up guard, I'd say Muggsy would have performed great in this era.

[sipitri]

I'd take him in a heartbeat.

[kumquat]

There's quite a few misconeptions about him not being able to defend bigger guys, he was a pesky little on ball defender.

[Kblaze8855]

I always assume that people who guess that he would be posted up and killed just didnt look into it.

[Fiasco]

I always assume that people who guess that he would be posted up and killed just didnt look into it.

It's the same thing with Chuck Hayes.

Muggsy's my favorite player after Marko Jaric.

[iamgine]

I always assume that people who guess that he would be posted up and killed just didnt look into it.
Hmm was he somehow able to defy physics and not get posted up and not have people shot over him?

[cteach111]

real little men don't belong in this league. They are more like a novelty rather than something to be taken seriously.

[Pointguard]

Great video Kblaze! Like the Seinfeld touch at the end. I went to a game in Atlanta and the fans started munching his head after the game, at first I thought it was a kid but it was the rude fans. He seemed even smaller than 5'3 that night.

I recall in the playoffs he was like a one man full court press. It seemed like he was two people. He could change directions faster than anybody and played with an unpredictability that made everything hard at guessing which direction he was going to get at you. Bol was the right person to be behind him from a team standpoint. Bogues would gamble while people were trying to figure out where Bol was.

Bogues was a great kickstart from off the bench. He could get the crowd going and his energy was boundless. His heart was ten feet tall but in an important way he knew his limitations as good as anybody that had to really overachieve to stay in the league.

[Kblaze8855]

Hmm was he somehow able to defy physics and not get posted up and not have people shot over him?

Im not sure id call it that. He was so short you couldnt really get under him at all. You had to lean down back into him. Didnt give good leverage. I had a 5'6'' friend who I played ball with all the time. Hell to back down. Not shoot over but you dont just shove them around as you might expect. Plus he had years of practice playing people who assumed they could post him up. He probably played more defense against people backing him down than any guard ever especially with the way he would rip you if you dribbled in front of him.

He knew how to attack on defense. He made guys work.

[eliteballer]

real little men don't belong in this league. They are more like a novelty rather than something to be taken seriously.

Wrong. They can be a huge mismatch problem. Take JJ Barea who is really 5-10 against the Lakers in last years playoffs.

[Owl]

Firstly Muggsy was a tremendous player, a very "pure" style point guard (albeit part of that is an anability to create good shots for himself, though credit him for not forcing the issue and ending up with an impressive fg% for someone so tiny). He was also a good defender for his size because he embraced his uniqueness and used quickness, a low centre of gravity, and the element of surprise to be a good ball stealer/pressurer.

I wouldn't want him as a starter on a contender because you'd need specific types of player and system to cover his weaknesses and emphasize strengths. You might want/need a pressing team, a fast breaking team and shot blockers.

If he was able to maintain his level of production coming off the bench (as a backup or job-share playing 16-24 mins) he'd be a tremendous change of pace, especially with the right teammates and system. Maybe if he had had three point range I'd be more comfortable with him as a starter.

For what it's worth I don't think the Bullets picked him as a novelty. They took him 12th with Mark Jackson still on the board. With a pick where you can get a good player, I don't see teams going for a short termist gimmick. I suspect Muggsy suggested this because he wasn't happy in Washington because he played backup minutes then was exposed in the expansion draft, and because he's really, really competitive (and so bitter about the experience).

[CLTHornets4eva]

I love Muggsy. Favorite alltime Hornet. :rockon:

[Xiao Yao You]

I'd take him. Great floor general unlike someone like Devin Harris.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

On a contending NBA team? Probably not. As great as Muggsy Bogues is, I wouldn''t take the risk. Sure he's a great pure point, and can nab steals on the other end, but ultimately his size would be his downfall. I wouldn't want the opponent to exploit the PG spot. Chances are, someone like Russell Westbrook could just abuse him all day.

Playing a pickup game? Absolutely.

[QuebecBaller]

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/images/stories/bogues112111.jpg

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[andgar923]

It'll depend on the type of team I have on whether or not he's a start on my team. Honestly he can play for my team any time, and probably start 8/10 times considering how weak today's PGs are.

Like somebody mentioned, he'd be even better in today's era then he was back then. This notion of him being posted up is silly, since there's actually only a handful of guards that post up, and can do so effectively. So it's not as if every matchup is gonna post him up. And with today's style of dribbling, you better believe he'll make players revert back to the old school style, cause he'd be picking their pockets every time down. The open lanes would also make it easier for him to penetrate then before. The dude would be penetrating like crazy with or without a screen, it would be a joke trying to stay in front of him.

I really don't see anybody just shooting over him off the dribble either, possibly off screens and whatnot, but not off the dribble. His anticipation and hands are too quick, so you're not gonna cross him over, he's not gonna play off you, he'll get right in your face and make it hard to take a balanced shot.

As far as his shot is concerned, he won't have to worry about it. He'd be getting to the line so often he won't have to worry about shit. Even if you sag off him, he's still gonna get to the cup and either dish it or draw a foul.

[Kblaze8855]

Talking about the Hornets name being free again soon sparked a discussion on the issue of Muggsy. My friends were Hornet fans in the 90s so they overrated him a bit but....it was good to see him get respect. Watching the Bullls this year without Rose I wouldnt be mad at having Muggsy and Nate split some time at the 1.

[SCdac]

I have this running debate with my friends on "could you score one basket against Muggsy in a one on one game?"... My friends vehemently say "no", but one basket?? surely even if I couldn't put the ball on the flooer I could knock down a desperation three or something. maybe?.

[Rake2204]

I have this running debate with my friends on "could you score one basket against Muggsy in a one on one game?"... My friends vehemently say "no", but one basket?? surely even if I couldn't put the ball on the flooer I could knock down a desperation three or something. maybe?.People could definitely score on Muggsy in a game of one-on-one. I don't mean it'd be easy, normal, or anything but fluky, but it'd be possible, just as it would be with most players in the world.

[Kblaze8855]

Sure you could. You could score on prime Bruce Bowen on a lucky shot. Ive played in games with Shammond Williams and he got scored on. He isnt Muggsy....but still. NBA players can be scored on by anyone.

Now...would I be able to go one on one with Muggsy in his prime...faceup...and blow by him off the dribble? Not unless he tripped or something.

But anyone could score. I could take 10 hooks over Muggsy from a distance and get lucky if it isnt make it take it so I dont need to get a stop.

[Darius]

It would be hard as well because he could get right into you and you'd have no chance to drive around him (or even dribble prob).

I'm 6'4" but, even then, with a guy right up on you shooting from distance is hard.

[Whoah10115]

LJ and Mourning seem like such great fits for Muggsy...but I just now realized how undersized all three of their best players were...LJ was 6'5/6'6 and Mourning 6'10.


I think he was great. He had the Dion Sanders quality. Not as many interceptions as you'd think, because guys just wouldn't try and run down his side with an open dribble. Freakishly quick and peak-a-boo on defense lol.


Him not being able to shoot very well (at least not with range) was bad tho. I think he'd be great today.

[SCdac]

^ Kblaze that's what I'm saying. I'm 5'7 so I'm not towering over anybody but I think I could get a clean shot off given the space. and yeah we're talking prime Muggsy, playing at roughly 80% his normal intensity.

[swi7ch]

No, especially after what Jordan did to him:

[QUOTE]When Johnny was coaching with the Hornets in 1995 they had a good team. Glen Rice, Mourning, Johnson. Series was tied at 2 and Hornets had a chance to win game 5 in Chicago. On the biggest possession of the game, Mugsy had the ball with the Hornets down 1. Jordan backed off of him and told him:

[chips93]

No, especially after what Jordan did to him:


where did you get that from? i remember some poster claimed to have a family connection to a bulls coach during the 90s posting something very similar.

anyway, glen rice was traded for alonzo mourning, they were never on the team together.

i wouldnt trust whoever you quoted

[Whoah10115]

where did you get that from? i remember some poster claimed to have a family connection to a bulls coach during the 90s posting something very similar.

anyway, glen rice was traded for alonzo mourning, they were never on the team together.

i wouldnt trust whoever you quoted



Not only that but, even if Muggsy never recovered, what does he mean? Is he saying Muggsy was mentally weak? Or that he could get blocked?



Also, if I remember correctly, the Bulls beat the Hornets in 4.

[swi7ch]

where did you get that from?
From this article - http://chicago.sbnation.com/chicago-bulls/2012/10/18/3522296/michael-jordan-chicago-bulls-scottie-pippen

Looks like a reliable site? :confusedshrug:

[chips93]

Also, if I remember correctly, the Bulls beat the Hornets in 4.


yeah i just checked, you're right, bulls in 4

iirc at the time the dude who posted that story got exposed as a fraud.

[Micku]

Sure. There are others that I would take, no question, but Muggsy isn't bad.

On paper, he may seem like a defensive liability, but he actually wasn't bad. Kenny Smith even called him the toughest on ball defender, lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkjPOepYIog#t=05m30s

[kNicKz]

To be 5'3" and play in the NBA and be good, shows a tremendous amount of talent, knowledge of the game, athleticism, and heart.

Muggsy :bowdown:

I'd have him as a backup PG

[Micku]

Muggsy defense on Michael Jordan, lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m3Ab7UzetA

[Segatti]

Offensively, he might be decent. Bringing up the ball, getting offense started, etc.

Defensively, it would be too easy for players to get open looks and overpower him.

Could work against some teams but ultimately no.

So by your stands you wouldn't pick Nash too, considering Bogues was better than Nash in defense.

[iamgine]

So by your stands you wouldn't pick Nash too, considering Bogues was better than Nash in defense.
Not really since Nash is 100x better in offense.

[Dro]

Some of you are crazy, or just have never seen the guy play. Kblaze did a nice job earlier of explaining..Mugsy would be at least a top 10-15 starting PG today. EASY. His defense was above average, despite his size. He harassed the ball handler full court and cause turnovers, and NEVER got tired. He got into the pain and set his teammates up for easy points. No, he could not shoot. But he did not get taken advantage of/backed down in the post like you think just because he's small.

He's VERY strong and its not difference than a guy like Brandon Jennings starting at PG and being backed down by bigger guards and he's not as strong as Mugsy. Mugsy knew how to run a team and he was smart, had an outstanding assist to turnover ratio. Some of you need to do some real homework and stop going off his size.