ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #2 Kobe Bryant vs Magic Johnson.

[AlphaWolf24]

In those 5 championship.......how times did Kobe lead a team to the finals as the team best player?

2008 MVP is a joke. That Award had Chris Paul name written all over it.

Kobe Bryant deserves NO MVP's. I repeat NO MVP!!


2001

2002

2008

2009

2010

thanks for showing your hatred....now go apply yourself


next

[Legends66NBA7]

What real world? In the world I see, in the only world I see, Magic Johnson was better than Kobe Bryant, and the vast majority of people - both casual fans of basketball, and hardcore - would agree with me in saying that.

Nobody but other Kobe stans like yourself would agree with your views. And that's the difference here.






subsequent

Even Alpha doesn't believe what he says:


I'll give you the players that I have watched for nearly 30years...I never watched Basketball when Russell or Wilt or to familiar with any Pro Game before 1980.....these are the best players that I have watched and followed..

pretty much from 1980 till present...

1.Magic
2.Jordan
3.Kobe
4.Bird
5.Duncan

[Legends66NBA7]

generally?

ok...

2009 he was the best player on the best team...

2010 he was the best player on the best team...

2001 he was the best player on the best team...



all very impressive statistical seasons.....with some of the best playoff runs ever....should have been MVP ...

next

Gifted Mind disagrees and many observers of the game disagree with you, strongly on that one:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157369

[AlphaWolf24]

Even Alpha doesn't believe what he says:


yeah and Kobe is still playing.....


we are splitting hairs here...

Kobe will be ranked higher then Magic alltime...when he is done playing..






book it.





next

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

In those 5 championship.......how times did Kobe lead a team to the finals as the team best player?

2008 MVP is a joke. That Award had Chris Paul name written all over it.

Kobe Bryant deserves NO MVP's. I repeat NO MVP!!

:roll:

[AlphaWolf24]

Gifted Mind disagrees and many observers of the game disagree with you, strongly on that one:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157369


Shaq - "Kobe is the best player in the world" 2001

Phil Jackson - "Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached" 2001

ESPN - "Kobe is the leagues best player at 22 years old" 2001

Kobe = 33PPG 7REB 7AST in the WCFinals (the real NBA Championship vs the Spurs)



now i respect the hard core online fan to an extent...but we are the minority here...especially 99% of the people in that thread:lol they make up about 3% of the NBA's fanbase


anyone who watches the game...knew then and knows now....kobe was absolutley the best allaround player on the 2001 Lakers....it aint even close.

[Boston C's]

alphawolf mad as hell right now :roll:

lets just move on to magic vs mike before the kobe trolls continue to bitch... magic already has the vote count

[RRR3]

:roll:
He's not making his point in a very nonbiased manner, but you could argue his point to some extent if you kept your biases out of it. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him, but there hasn't been any one year where Kobe was far and away the best in the NBA; there's always been at least one other guy who has at least some argument to be equal and/or better.

[Legends66NBA7]

He's not making his point in a very nonbiased manner, but you could argue his point to some extent if you kept your biases out of it. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him, but there hasn't been any one year where Kobe was far and away the best in the NBA; there's always been at least one other guy who has at least some argument to be equal and/or better.

Girl's name in avatar, please ? :P

[kurt_rambis]

This is a joke, right?

So you're saying if a dude averaged 40ppg, 9.5rpg, 8.5apg, 55% shooting, and missed the playoffs because his teammates (combined) averaged 45ppg, 15rpg, 5apg, and 31% shooting, he's not the most valuable player?

Get the **** outta here with that noise. It ain't his fault his teammates suck.

you're basically describing the best player in the history world, or a serious case of stat padding. either way that fictional superman isn't a value to his team, so no he shouldn't be mvp

your beef is with the nba. tell the angel of stern to change to name of the award

[AlphaWolf24]

alphawolf mad as hell right now :roll:

lets just move on to magic vs mike before the kobe trolls continue to bitch... magic already has the vote count


Mad because 10 fans online think Kobe is nowhere near Magic:lol



ok


next

[RRR3]

Girl's name in avatar, please ? :P
Go to my thread in the OTC. Join the legion! If you post in the thread I'll add more pics :D

[RRR3]

Mad because 10 fans online think Kobe is nowhere near Magic:lol



ok


next

Dayum son, you done got goddurn more irked than a hogtied piglet stuck in the bayou! Git a gree-yip dere, boy!

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

He's not making his point in a very nonbiased manner, but you could argue his point to some extent if you kept your biases out of it. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him, but there hasn't been any one year where Kobe was far and away the best in the NBA; there's always been at least one other guy who has at least some argument to be equal and/or better.

You could argue that with anyone. It depends on what you look at and value most. When it comes to basketball there are very few inarguable things

[Legends66NBA7]

This is a joke, right?

So you're saying if a dude averaged 40ppg, 9.5rpg, 8.5apg, 55% shooting, and missed the playoffs because his teammates (combined) averaged 45ppg, 15rpg, 5apg, and 31% shooting, he's not the most valuable player?

Get the **** outta here with that noise. It ain't his fault his teammates suck.

Yet, Kobe still had Lamar Odom for those 3 years, Phil Jackson and the triangle offense and couldn't lead his team to more than 45 wins, the 7th seed, and past the first round.

I thought Kobe was supposed to be a leader, right ? He wanted to be the man in L.A., right ? No more being a sidekick ?

It's not all about numbers. Wilt Chamberlain didn't MVP either when he posted up 50+ppg and 25+rpg.

How you lead your teams to wins in the regular season, how you make your teammates better, how you make your teammates believe in a philosophy of your team, defensive mentality, etc.. Is what builds up the body of work for an MVP.

You want MVP ? Build up your resume, build up your teammates, domniate the league, lots of wins, be the clear cut best player on your team as well be the best team out there, etc..

[kurt_rambis]

generally?

ok...

2009 he was the best player on the best team...

2010 he was the best player on the best team...

2001 he was the best player on the best team...



all very impressive statistical seasons.....with some of the best playoff runs ever....should have been MVP ...

next

in none of those years did the lakers have the league's best record

and in 2001 shaq was their best player

derp

[RRR3]

You could argue that with anyone. It depends on what you look at and value most. When it comes to basketball there are very few inarguable things
There are some years it hasn't been arguable though, say with Shaq some years and MJ, Wilt, Kareem, etc.

[Legends66NBA7]

You could argue that with anyone. It depends on what you look at and value most. When it comes to basketball there are very few inarguable things

Which would be ?

[RRR3]

Yet, Kobe still had Lamar Odom for those 3 years, Phil Jackson and the triangle offense and couldn't lead his team to more than 45 wins, the 7th seed, and past the first round.

I thought Kobe was supposed to be a leader, right ? He wanted to be the man in L.A., right ? No more being a sidekick ?

It's not all about numbers. Wilt Chamberlain didn't MVP either when he posted up 50+ppg and 25+rpg.

How you lead your teams to wins in the regular season, how you make your teammates better, how you make your teammates believe in a philosophy of your team, defensive mentality, etc.. Is what builds up the body of work for an MVP.

You want MVP ? Build up your resume, build up your teammates, domniate the league, lots of wins, be the clear cut best player on your team as well be the best team out there, etc..


Link to thread: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235837&page=7

[Legends66NBA7]

Link to thread: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235837&page=7

Oh thanks, but i already found it when you told me ;).

[RRR3]

Oh thanks, but i already found it when you told me ;).
Post and I'll add more pics. We need to beat the ariana grande thread eventually! :banana: :banana:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

[QUOTE=JordanTime]Magic Johnson is my vote.

Kobe Bryant better than Magic Johnson is a joke.

Magic Johnson

[B]5

[Jacks3]

Whilst I agree that Magic ranks over Kobe, those declaring it to be "a joke" to have Kobe near him either don't watch the game with any degree of objectivity, or don't watch the game, period.
Yeah, the haters are pathetic. Anyway, Magic was never the undisputed best in the league either. In fact, he only has one year (1987) where he's the best, and it's certainly not indisputable given what Jordan/Bird did. These morons are really reaching. :oldlol:

lol @ that idiot Legend66.

[RRR3]

fixed your post :oldlol:

Similar level of offensive domination... Kobe crushes Magic defensively

It's really not close at all.
All-star game mvps lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Was Magic better than peak Shaq or Lebron? What relevance is the best player in the game tag then? We should prop up Magic for playing in a less talented league?

[RRR3]

Was Magic better than peak Shaq or Lebron? What relevance is the best player in the game tag then? We should prop up Magic for playing in a less talented league?

Peak Shaq was better than Magic, Magic is better career wise though.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Peak Shaq was better than Magic, Magic is better career wise though.

If neither Magic or Kobe are better than peak Shaq why is it relevant if Kobe was or was not the best player in the game? You are basically rewarding one player for playing in a less talented league.

[AlphaWolf24]

:facepalm
in none of those years did the lakers have the league's best record

and in 2001 shaq was their best player

derp


huh...they were the best team...with the best record in thier conference...many MVP's won the award without having the best overall record.


and in 2001 Kobe was far and away the lakers best overall player...Shaq and Phil have both echoed this....ESPN ran a 5 page story saying Kobe was the League's best player...

Kobe on top of this was voted by TNT , S.I. and Sporting News as the runaway player of the decade....but steve Nash nash more MVP's

[Legends66NBA7]

fixed your post :oldlol:

Similar level of offensive domination... Kobe crushes Magic defensively

It's really not close at all.

All-Star MVP's are pretty much irrelevant. How much stock you going to put into the all-star games when they play little to no defense and is an exhibition game ?

Similar level of offensive domination my ass, there's nothing similar in their domination on offense. Kobe is a high volume scorer who can be a very deadily when he gets hot. Magic is a pass first point guard, who get's everyone involved in the offense, higher bball i.q. on offense, and more efficient guard.

Defensively ? Not much to say there. Though, Kobe's defense has been called into question over the years:

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

Though, I try not too look at defensive ratings or advanced stats too much I found this shocking:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career_p.html

There is virtually little difference between the two. But isn't Kobe supposed to be the one with All-Defense First Team's ? Shouldn't he be higher ? It's strange.

Really, it's not close from how I see it. Magic wins this.

Agree to Disagree.

[RRR3]

All-Star MVP's are pretty much irrelevant. How much stock you going to put into the all-star games when they play little to no defense and is an exhibition game ?

Similar level of offensive domination my ass, there's nothing similar in their domination on offense. Kobe is a high volume scorer who can be a very deadily when he gets hot. Magic is a pass first point guard, who get's everyone involved in the offense, higher bball i.q. on offense, and more efficient guard.

Defensively ? Not much to say there. Though, Kobe's defense has been called into question over the years:

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

Though, I try not too look at defensive ratings or advanced stats too much I found this shocking:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career_p.html

There is virtually little difference between the two. But isn't Kobe supposed to be the one with All-Defense First Team's ? Shouldn't he be higher ? It's strange.

Really, it's not close from how I see it. Magic wins this.

Agree to Disagree.

Post in the thread son! Come on now.

[Legends66NBA7]

Post in the thread son! Come on now.

Done and done. Will try to find more still...

[kurt_rambis]

:facepalm

huh...they were the best team...with the best record in thier conference...many MVP's won the award without having the best overall record.


and in 2001 Kobe was far and away the lakers best overall player...Shaq and Phil have both echoed this....ESPN ran a 5 page story saying Kobe was the League's best player...

Kobe on top of this was voted by TNT , S.I. and Sporting News as the runaway player of the decade....but steve Nash nash more MVP's

the point is that they didn't have the best record in the league any of those years. playoffs don't matter in mvp voting

and in none of those years was kobe a clear mvp favorite

btw 2001 shaq was CLEARLY better, by any statistical or intangible measurement. if anything shaq was robbed of the mvp that year

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Which would be ?

It's about what you value most. I may say a guy putting up 35/5/5 makes him easily the best player, while you may say he was losing in the first round and there was another guy putting up 31/7/7 the same year. Some people value individual success while others prefer a player's effect on a team, etc.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

There are some years it hasn't been arguable though, say with Shaq some years and MJ, Wilt, Kareem, etc.

That's why I said "very few"

[JordanTime]

2001

2002

2008

2009

2010

thanks for showing your hatred....now go apply yourself


next


pathetic post from a stupid fool

[Yao Ming's Foot]

All-Star MVP's are pretty much irrelevant. How much stock you going to put into the all-star games when they play little to no defense and is an exhibition game ?

Similar level of offensive domination my ass, there's nothing similar in their domination on offense. Kobe is a high volume scorer who can be a very deadily when he gets hot. Magic is a pass first point guard, who get's everyone involved in the offense, higher bball i.q. on offense, and more efficient guard.

Defensively ? Not much to say there. Though, Kobe's defense has been called into question over the years:

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

Though, I try not too look at defensive ratings or advanced stats too much I found this shocking:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career_p.html

There is virtually little difference between the two. But isn't Kobe supposed to be the one with All-Defense First Team's ? Shouldn't he be higher ? It's strange.

Really, it's not close from how I see it. Magic wins this.

Agree to Disagree.

I don't care about all star MVPs. The post I was responding to listed it among Magic's unbeatable accolades. It was just funny that Kobe outside of MVPs already has Magic beat in all of them.

Kobe is a shooting guard, Magic a point guard. Its the nature of the position for Kobe to score and Magic to pass. If Magic was forced to score more his efficiency would drop and if Kobe was asked to pass more his efficiency would increase.

+/- isn't a individual defensive metric. Opposing PER is and Kobe's opposing SG's were held to a 11.8 PER. What else do you want?

Why would it be shocking to you? Unlike Jordan, unlike Magic, unlike Bird, unlike Shaq, unlike Duncan, Kobe has never played with a teammate who made the first team all nba defensive team. Jordan had Pippen, Magic had Kareem, Bird had Mchale, Duncan had Bowen, Kobe had 3 seasons of Shaq's 2nd team defense and thats it. Defensive ratings are all about being on a great defensive team and the Kobe even in his championship runs was never on a elite regular season defense. It just makes his championship dominance that more impressive.

[JordanTime]

:roll:

what is so funny about my post?

Kobe Bryant deserves 0 MVP. I repeat NONE. He is overrated and will stay overrated until the day he retires.

Chris Paul was clearly the best player in the NBA in 08 and he should have been given the MVP. He put up the GREATEST NUMBERS from a PG. (Yes better than Magic Johnson!)

21.1PPG 11.6APG 5.5RPG 2.7SPG 49FG% 28.3PER 13.2OWS 17.8WS

New Orleans Hornets had won 56 games, and just lost 26 times. Lakers had won 57 games(with a better roster than the Hornets) just 1 more game than the Hornets. To remind you, nobody, and i mean nobody had the Hornets even making the playoffs that season, but yet, the best PG (at the time) and the best player (that year), did what he did, with that roster and brought back the city of New Orleans after that horrific Hurricane Katrina.

Salute to Chris Paul.


http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5257/5467706222_ec055944d1.jpg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2008.html

[JordanTime]

fixed your post :oldlol:

Similar level of offensive domination... Kobe crushes Magic defensively

It's really not close at all.

defensively? Kobe Bryant making last season all NBA 1st defensive team, shows you how bad this league is screwed up. Kobe Bryant is overrated.

I can name at least 5 players who deserves a spot over him last season.

Excellent Offense kills o.k. Defense

[The-Legend-24]

In those 5 championship.......how times did Kobe lead a team to the finals as the team best player?

2008 MVP is a joke. That Award had Chris Paul name written all over it.

Kobe Bryant deserves NO MVP's. I repeat NO MVP!!
Damn, you just went full retard.

[Deuce Bigalow]

what is so funny about my post?

Kobe Bryant deserves 0 MVP. I repeat NONE. He is overrated and will stay overrated until the day he retires.

Chris Paul was clearly the best player in the NBA in 08 and he should have been given the MVP. He put up the GREATEST NUMBERS from a PG. (Yes better than Magic Johnson!)

21.1PPG 11.6APG 5.5RPG 2.7SPG 49FG% 28.3PER 13.2OWS 17.8WS

New Orleans Hornets had won 56 games, and just lost 26 times. Lakers had won 57 games(with a better roster than the Hornets) just 1 more game than the Hornets. To remind you, nobody, and i mean nobody had the Hornets even making the playoffs that season, but yet, the best PG (at the time) and the best player (that year), did what he did, with that roster and brought back the city of New Orleans after that horrific Hurricane Katrina.

Salute to Chris Paul.


http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5257/5467706222_ec055944d1.jpg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2008.html

Kobe was easily the best player in 08

[Yao Ming's Foot]

defensively? Kobe Bryant making last season all NBA 1st defensive team, shows you how bad this league is screwed up. Kobe Bryant is overrated.

Excellent Offense kills o.k. Defense

Whether or not you agree with Kobe Bryant making his 11th all defensive team isn't really relevant in the defensive comparison between Magic and Kobe.

It's 11 vs 0, not 11 vs 10.

[RRR3]

Whether or not you agree with Kobe Bryant making his 11th all defensive team isn't really relevant in the defensive comparison between Magic and Kobe.

It's 11 vs 0, not 11 vs 10.
He shouldn't have 10 either. Or 9. Or 8. Or 7.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He shouldn't have 10 either. Or 9. Or 8. Or 7.

or 6? or 5? or 4? or 3? or 2? or 1? :oldlol:

If we are going to pretend that Magic and Kobe are in the same galaxy on defense we might as well pretend that Kobe has some sort of mind control on all the coaches in the league that have recognized his defensive skills throughout his career and they ALL have been unwarranted.

Its just truly amazing that Kobe somehow according to ISHers reaps awards off his defensive reputation still to this day yet somehow never did anything to earn that defensive reputation in the first place. Its truly one of life's biggest mysteries. It also funny how only Kobe's awards have been influenced by his reputation. It began with Kobe and only Kobe.

[RRR3]

or 6? or 5? or 4? or 3? or 2? or 1? :oldlol:

If we are going to pretend that Magic and Kobe are in the same galaxy on defense we might as well pretend that Kobe has some sort of mind control on all the coaches in the league that have recognized his defensive skills throughout his career and they ALL have been unwarranted.
Noticed I stopped after 7. :rolleyes: IDK how many he really should have, but no more than 5 or 6.

[JordanTime]

Damn, you just went full retard.

When has Kobe ever deserved a MVP?

05-06? When the Lakers failed to win 50+ games..............not in this league buddy. (No League's MVP team had failed to win over 50+ games)

06-07? See Above. (No League's MVP team had failed to win over 50+ games)

07-08? http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6380710&postcount=288

Chris Paul was the REAL MVP of the 2007-2008 NBA Season!

Please explain.

[kurt_rambis]

or 6? or 5? or 4? or 3? or 2? or 1? :oldlol:

If we are going to pretend that Magic and Kobe are in the same galaxy on defense we might as well pretend that Kobe has some sort of mind control on all the coaches in the league that have recognized his defensive skills throughout his career and they ALL have been unwarranted.

magic actually averaged more steals per game, and was often tasked with guarding 6-1 point guards who were obviously a lot quicker than him

was kobe a better defender? sure. but they're in the same galaxy, maybe even the same solar system

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Noticed I stopped after 7. :rolleyes: IDK how many he really should have, but no more than 5 or 6.

6 is more than 1st team defenses than Kareem, more than Bruce Bowen, more than Michael Cooper, more than Ben Wallace, more than Hakeem Olajuwon. You are going to have to take away more than that to pretend that Kobe isn't a significantly more accomplished and talented defender than Magic Johnson.

[RRR3]

6 is more than 1st team defenses than Kareem, more than Bruce Bowen, more than Michael Cooper, more than Ben Wallace, more than Hakeem Olajuwon. You are going to have to take away more than that to pretend that Kobe isn't a significantly more accomplished and talented defender than Magic Johnson.

I meant 6 total. Most 2nd team probably. And when did I say Kobe wasn't a good deal better than Magic on D? Not arguing this but Kobe doesn't deserve more than 2 or 3 first team all D selections.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I meant 6 total. Most 2nd team probably. And when did I say Kobe wasn't a good deal better than Magic on D? Not arguing this but Kobe doesn't deserve more than 2 or 3 first team all D selections.

Why wouldn't you argue it? Why make the statement if your not going to back it up with anything? Because you know it sounds ridiculous?

Magic Johnson only deserved 2 or 3 first team all nba awards but I'm not going to argue it. :oldlol:

[JordanTime]

Why wouldn't you argue it? Why make the statement if your not going to back it up with anything? Because you know it sounds ridiculous?

Magic Johnson only deserved 2 or 3 first team all nba awards but I'm not going to argue it. :oldlol:

Kobe Bryant has always been overrated defensively. In no way should Kobe Bryant own 11 total All NBA Defensive teams. I'd say he should only have a couple. And that was time when Shaq was around.

[Legends66NBA7]

or 6? or 5? or 4? or 3? or 2? or 1? :oldlol:

If we are going to pretend that Magic and Kobe are in the same galaxy on defense we might as well pretend that Kobe has some sort of mind control on all the coaches in the league that have recognized his defensive skills throughout his career and they ALL have been unwarranted.

Its just truly amazing that Kobe somehow according to ISHers reaps awards off his defensive reputation still to this day yet somehow never did anything to earn that defensive reputation in the first place. Its truly one of life's biggest mysteries. It also funny how only Kobe's awards have been influenced by his reputation. It began with Kobe and only Kobe.

No were not pretending that, at all. Kobe's defense is just no game changer to me. That article proves it.

And no all-defense first team defender ? Shaq's presence in the paint alone is more impact defensively than that off any wing defender. He also was runner up for DPOY in 2000 (should have won it really). Also when you say held down to low PER, it doesn't necessarily mean that Kobe guarded them the whole game. Also, Ron Artest was a former DPOY winner joining that team.

Okay, so let me get this straight. Only on ISH, Kobe reaps benefits from reputation ? Um, let's see:

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsTaiCgtwNA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueDm2Nkl3s

http://www.clublakers.com/lakers-discussion/even-must-admit-kobe-defense-very-overrated-t82574-40.html

http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/tex-winter-agrees-with-basketbawful.html

http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/kobe-nash-and-defensive-myth.html

http://www.clipsnation.com/2009/5/11/872400/the-myth-of-kobe

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/445288-kobe-bryant-the-man-the-myth-the-legend#/articles/445288-kobe-bryant-the-man-the-myth-the-legend/page/4

Yet all these sources and Tex Winter say that he coasts or either doesn't play sound defense correctly ? That some of his All-NBA Defense First Teams are a joke ? Yes, only on ISH, apparently.

And again, nobody said he didn't deserve All-Defense First team, you are. That's the problem with some of you Kobe homers. You exgerrate so much B.S. about others opinions because you are so insecure if someone brings these things into context. It's like you vicariously live through Kobe.

It's funny how only Kobe's fan base can genereate this much insecurity about other people's opinions and objectivity about the man. It sounds like, it began with Kobe and only Kobe.

[JordanTime]

No were not pretending that, at all. Kobe's defense is just no game changer to me. That article proves it.

And no all-defense first team defender ? Shaq's presence in the paint alone is more impact defensively than that off any wing defender. He also was runner up for DPOY in 2000 (should have won it really). Also when you say held down to low PER, it doesn't necessarily mean that Kobe guarded them the whole game. Also, Ron Artest was a former DPOY winner joining that team.

Okay, so let me get this straight. Only on ISH, Kobe reaps benefits from reputation ? Um, let's see:

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsTaiCgtwNA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueDm2Nkl3s

http://www.clublakers.com/lakers-discussion/even-must-admit-kobe-defense-very-overrated-t82574-40.html

http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/tex-winter-agrees-with-basketbawful.html

http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/kobe-nash-and-defensive-myth.html

http://www.clipsnation.com/2009/5/11/872400/the-myth-of-kobe

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/445288-kobe-bryant-the-man-the-myth-the-legend#/articles/445288-kobe-bryant-the-man-the-myth-the-legend/page/4

Yet all these sources and Tex Winter say that he coasts or either doesn't play sound defense correctly ? That some of his All-NBA Defense First Teams are a joke ? Yes, only on ISH, apparently.

And again, nobody said he didn't deserve All-Defense First team, you are. That's the problem with some of you Kobe homers. You exgerrate so much B.S. about others opinions because you are so insecure if someone brings these things into context. It's like you vicariously live through Kobe.

It's funny how only Kobe's fan base can genereate this much insecurity about other people's opinions and objectivity about the man. It sounds like, it began with Kobe and only Kobe.

Wow amazing post, and thanks for the links.

Love that first article, i re-call reading that when it was first posted online.

[Legends66NBA7]

Wow amazing post, and thanks for the links.

Love that first article, i re-call reading that when it was first posted online.

No problem.

I'm not even denying Kobe has been a solid defender in the past. He's just hasn't been all that deserving off these first teams.

Some people just hate on the objective look. Also this link too from Real GM:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=911506

Yet ISH is the only place that thinks about Kobe this way...

[JordanTime]

No problem.

I'm not even denying Kobe has been a solid defender in the past. He's just hasn't been all that deserving off these first teams.

Some people just hate on the objective look. Also this link too from Real GM:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=911506

Yeah, Kobe does deserve a few, but 11!! Just shows you how much of a joke this award has become.

Tony Allen
Wesley Johnson
Dwayne Wade
Keith Bogans
Joe Johnson

were all better defensively last season. I could add a few more guys to that list.

just so everyone can see this

http://asubstituteforwar.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/defrapm1011.jpg

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No problem.

I'm not even denying Kobe has been a solid defender in the past. He's just hasn't been all that deserving off these first teams.

Some people just hate on the objective look. Also this link too from Real GM:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=911506

Yet ISH is the only place that thinks about Kobe this way...

Hmmmmm NBA coaches or random internet message board posters???

Which opinion should we value more?

Hating on Kobe has been a passion for many since he declared for the draft. I would be surprised if you could find any awards he has been given that wasn't accompanied on the net by some random internet message board experts arguing against its selection.

[Legends66NBA7]

Hmmmmm NBA coaches or random internet message board posters???

Which opinion should we value more?

Hating on Kobe has been a passion for many since he declared for the draft. I would be surprised if you could find any awards he has been given that wasn't accompanied on the net by some random internet message board experts arguing against its selection.

Nice to see you ignore my previous post that had Tex Winter say this about Kobe:

http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/tex-winter-agrees-with-basketbawful.html

The main message that Winter, a Lakers consultant, would like to get across to Bryant is that the problem is not his offense.

"I’d like to see him play better defense," Winter said, adding that he had addressed the issue recently with Bryant but didn't come away with the idea that Bryant was intent on changing his approach.

"You know Kobe," Winter said with a chuckle. "He has his game plan. I think he heard me. But he feels there's a certain way he’s got to play the game. But it doesn’t involve a lot of basically sound defense."

Because the Lakers need so much of his effort at the offensive end, Bryant has adopted a save-energy plan on the defensive end, Winter said. "He's basically playing a lot of one-man zone. He's doing a lot of switching, zoning up, trying to come up with the interception.

"The way Kobe plays defensively affects the team," Winter added. "Anybody that doesn’t play consistently good defense hurts the team. That's not only Kobe. Our other guards tend to gamble and get beat. Another problem is that the screen and roll is not played correctly."


You are the one who said only ISH says this about Kobe and I should you Real GM, Lakers Forums, Youtube, etc... Didn't know exactly what you were trying to say.

Hating on Kobe ? No, it has nothing to do with "hate". Why every damn Kobe fan uses this to deflect the topic at hand is beyond me. I've never even met the man. But yes, I "hate" him.

Don't get surprised that this stuff pops up. I don't personally agree with some of them, but if were going to go with some Kobe half-truth's, we can go with the Kobe objectivity as well.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Nice to see you ignore my previous post that had Tex Winter say this about Kobe:

http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/tex-winter-agrees-with-basketbawful.html

You are the one who said only ISH says this about Kobe and I should you Real GM, Lakers Forums, Youtube, etc... Didn't know exactly what you were trying to say.

Hating on Kobe ? No, it has nothing to do with "hate". Why every damn Kobe fan uses this to deflect the topic at hand is beyond me. I've never even met the man. But yes, I "hate" him.

Don't get surprised that this stuff pops up. I don't personally agree with some of them, but if were going to go with some Kobe half-truth's, we can go with the Kobe objectivity as well.

Of course it does. Kobe's accolades are treated with a fine toothed comb. No other legend gets the same treatment. Do you see anybody really hyped about how many all defensive team awards Michael Jordan really earned? When he won the DPOY did anybody bother to create some obscure formula like regularized adjusted +/- (RAPM) to find out that the best defensive player was probably some scrub big man who wouldnt even be in the league without his defensive abilities?

The idea of any player Kobe included winning awards based on his past reputation is even remotely controversial. The funny thing is you guys like to pretend this phenomena begins and ends with Kobe. Every single legend in this game has had a reputation that over inflated his perceived skills as their career progressed. Magic made the all star team for a year he didn't even play. He's won a Finals MVP on the basis of a single game.

[juju151111]

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Nice to see you ignore my previous post that had Tex Winter say this about Kobe:

http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2007/03/tex-winter-agrees-with-basketbawful.html

The main message that Winter, a Lakers consultant, would like to get across to Bryant is that the problem is not his offense.

"I

[juju151111]

Of course it does. Kobe's accolades are treated with a fine toothed comb. No other legend gets the same treatment. Do you see anybody really hyped about how many all defensive team awards Michael Jordan really earned? When he won the DPOY did anybody bother to create some obscure formula like regularized adjusted +/- (RAPM) to find out that the best defensive player was probably some scrub big man who wouldnt even be in the league without his defensive abilities?

The idea of any player Kobe included winning awards based on his past reputation is even remotely controversial. The funny thing is you guys like to pretend this phenomena begins and ends with Kobe. Every single legend in this game has had a reputation that over inflated his perceived skills as their career progressed. Magic made the all star team for a year he didn't even play. He's won a Finals MVP on the basis of a single game.
Simple question since you seem to watch Kobe a lot. Did he deserve the 1st team award in 11.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

BREAKING NEWS! Tex Winter said Michael Jordan is the worst passer in NBA History!!!

http://i.imgur.com/8pUmr.png

:facepalm

[JordanTime]

Simple question since you seem to watch Kobe a lot. Did he deserve the 1st team award in 11.


http://asubstituteforwar.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/defrapm1011.jpg

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Simple question since you seem to watch Kobe a lot. Did he deserve the 1st team award in 11.

I don't know. I watched the Lakers. I didn't Wesley Johnson play lockdown defense "according to the advanced stats" for one of the worst defenses in the league for 82 games.

[juju151111]

BREAKING NEWS! Tex Winter said Michael Jordan is the worst passer in NBA History!!!

http://i.imgur.com/8pUmr.png

:facepalm
Total missed the point if you own evidence. Dumb has hell. It was a motivational tatic. MJ said it himself you dumbass. Phil knows how he ticks. I do agree with you through to an extent. I think Kobe deserves Atleast 4-5 and a few 2nd team. I don't know why this is relevant because a blind man can see Magic has no defense. Go watch any game and I mean any game when he vs a decent Pg.

[JordanTime]

Total missed the point if you own evidence. Dumb has hell. It was a motivational tatic. MJ said it himself you dumbass. Phil knows how he ticks. I do agree with you through to an extent. I think Kobe deserves Atleast 4-5 and a few 2nd team. I don't know why this is relevant because a blind man can see Magic has no defense. Go watch any game and I mean any game when he vs a decent Pg.

Magic Johnson didn't guard opposing teams point guards.

Magic Johnson guarded either the 2,3,4. aka a Versatlie Defender.

[juju151111]

I don't know. I watched the Lakers. I didn't Wesley Johnson play lockdown defense "according to the advanced stats" for one of the worst defenses in the league for 82 games.
Hmm I watch the lakes too. Ok since you do then you will agree with me that Kobe has turned into a roamer on defense and gives up 3 pointers all the time. He hasn't been solid in about 2-3 years. I mean you watch the lakes right?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Total missed the point if you own evidence. Dumb has hell. It was a motivational tatic. MJ said it himself you dumbass. Phil knows how he ticks. I do agree with you through to an extent. I think Kobe deserves Atleast 4-5 and a few 2nd team. I don't know why this is relevant because a blind man can see Magic has no defense. Go watch any game and I mean any game when he vs a decent Pg.

Of course. Tex Winter was hypercritical to his legendary players. Its an exaggeration. It doesn't invalidate 11 all nba awards.

[JordanTime]

I don't know. I watched the Lakers. I didn't Wesley Johnson play lockdown defense "according to the advanced stats" for one of the worst defenses in the league for 82 games.

well i do remember Wesley Johnson locking down Kobe Bryant numerous times last season.......that was probably the reason i had him there.

[juju151111]

Magic Johnson didn't guard opposing teams point guards.

Magic Johnson guarded either the 2,3,4. aka a Versatlie Defender.
Stop your horseshit. He guarded mostly pg. I am a MJ too, but stop. Baton lit his ass up mist of the time. He had no lateral movement.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Hmm I watch the lakes too. Ok since you do then you will agree with me that Kobe has turned into a roamer on defense and gives up 3 pointers all the time. He hasn't been solid in about 2-3 years. I mean you watch the lakes right?

Roaming is playing defense. Its a strategy, that has resulted in two titles and three years of a top 6 defense for the Lakers. Do you really think if Kobe wanted to sit on top of a guy at the 3 pt line in order avoid "his guy" from scoring at the expense of playing team defense it would make the Lakers a better defensive team?

[JordanTime]

Stop your horseshit. He guarded mostly pg. I am a MJ too, but stop. Baton lit his ass up mist of the time. He had no lateral movement.

Are you kidding me?

Magic Johnson was rarely guarding other team's opposing PG's. He was guarding 2,3,4, while Bryon Scott defended the 1's. C'mon man.

And i didn't say Magic Johnson was a good defender, i said he was a versatile defender.......................BIG DIFFERENCE.

[Legends66NBA7]

BREAKING NEWS! Tex Winter said Michael Jordan is the worst passer in NBA History!!!

http://i.imgur.com/8pUmr.png

:facepalm

And I care about this why ?

What's does that have to do with Kobe's overrated defense ? Deflection 101 at it's finest. Jordan has nothing to do with this thread. Stay on topic.

[juju151111]

Of course. Tex Winter was hypercritical to his legendary players. Its an exaggeration. It doesn't invalidate 11 all nba awards.
He wasn't being hypocritical. He clearly says Kobe rests on defense/roam now which is true. The MJ statement was a motivational tactic. How do I know that? MJ isn't the worse passer ever. Even if he was trying to motivate Kobe it didn't work because he kept doing the whole season+ playoffs.

[juju151111]

Are you kidding me?

Magic Johnson was rarely guarding other team's opposing PG's. He was guarding 2,3,4, while Bryon Scott defended the 1's. C'mon man.

And i didn't say Magic Johnson was a good defender, i said he was a versatile defender.......................BIG DIFFERENCE.
Nope he had that duty 90% of the time.

[juju151111]

Roaming is playing defense. Its a strategy, that has resulted in two titles and three years of a top 6 defense for the Lakers. Do you really think if Kobe wanted to sit on top of a guy at the 3 pt line in order avoid "his guy" from scoring at the expense of playing team defense it would make the Lakers a better defensive team?
:facepalm I have no words for how stupid your post is. :rolleyes: Who says Kobe can't play team defense? Kobe isn't some great help defender either. He conserving energy, go watch some 03 Kobe where he did both then come back snd talked to me. You have to recover to your man.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And I care about this why ?

What's does that have to do with Kobe's overrated defense ? Deflection 101 at it's finest. Jordan has nothing to do with this thread. Stay on topic.

Jordan isn't whats relevant. It's Tex Winter's criticism. Do you think Jordan was the worst passer in history because Tex Winter said so?

[iamgine]

The problem seems to be people watched Kobe and don't think he's that good of a defender yet head coaches seems to think he is. Any explanation for this?

[Legends66NBA7]

Of course it does. Kobe's accolades are treated with a fine toothed comb. No other legend gets the same treatment. Do you see anybody really hyped about how many all defensive team awards Michael Jordan really earned? When he won the DPOY did anybody bother to create some obscure formula like regularized adjusted +/- (RAPM) to find out that the best defensive player was probably some scrub big man who wouldnt even be in the league without his defensive abilities?

The idea of any player Kobe included winning awards based on his past reputation is even remotely controversial. The funny thing is you guys like to pretend this phenomena begins and ends with Kobe. Every single legend in this game has had a reputation that over inflated his perceived skills as their career progressed. Magic made the all star team for a year he didn't even play. He's won a Finals MVP on the basis of a single game.

Man you come of as such a homer. But please, do come up with some next Grassy Knowl theory. Formulas alone don't bring things into prespective. Watch the games and put things into context.

Pretend what ?? Did I make those articles come out of no where ? No I did not. You can find all the articles you want to deflect even more on this topic on Kobe's defense and I will stick on it.

The reason Magic made the all-star game was because people wanted to see him play one last time. He had the contraction of HIV. People wanted to see him again.

Oh and his Finals MVP wasn't deserved ?:

25pts 5 reb 9ast 9/12. Lead both teams in points and assists. But yeah he didn't deserve it. Nevermind the fact that MVP didn't matter, it was a damn touching moment to see Earvin Johnson play basketball in the NBA one more damn time.

My goodness, if you don't understand that then you are delousinal. There are moments in basketball history that go beyond that of a damn box score. Can't even believe I have to explain this to you.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:facepalm I have no words for how stupid your post is. :rolleyes: Who says Kobe can't play team defense? Kobe isn't some great help defender either. He conserving energy, go watch some 03 Kobe where he did both then come back snd talked to me. You have to recover to your man.

How about 2010 Kobe, when the Lakers were crowned champions on the strength of their defense? How did Rondo do? How did Ray Allen play? Are you telling me Kobe didn't play defense because he roamed off of Rondo?

[Legends66NBA7]

Jordan isn't whats relevant. It's Tex Winter's criticism. Do you Jordan was the worst passer in history because Tex Winter said so?

Bro, you just told me this before:


Hmmmmm NBA coaches or random internet message board posters???

Which opinion should we value more?

Hating on Kobe has been a passion for many since he declared for the draft. I would be surprised if you could find any awards he has been given that wasn't accompanied on the net by some random internet message board experts arguing against its selection.

You tell me. I will be waitng for more B.S. or deflection. Which ever may come first.

[DaPerceive]

The problem seems to be people watched Kobe and don't think he's that good of a defender yet head coaches seems to think he is. Any explanation for this?
There are about three to four seasons I would say Kobe didn't deserve to make an all-defensive team. 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2009-2010, and 2010-2011. Every other season I would say Kobe was worthy of that All-NBA Defensive spot.

A lot of people get carried away though..

[Legends66NBA7]

:facepalm I have no words for how stupid your post is. :rolleyes: Who says Kobe can't play team defense? Kobe isn't some great help defender either. He conserving energy, go watch some 03 Kobe where he did both then come back snd talked to me. You have to recover to your man.

I know right ?

Who the hell thinks he can't play defense ? We just call it out for being overrated and we have supported this notion with coaches and NBA forums, youtube, etc... to formulate why we feel this way. But were hating on Kobe and his legacy.... SMH...

[Legends66NBA7]

There are about three to four seasons I would say Kobe didn't deserve to make an all-defensive team. 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2009-2010, and 2010-2011. Every other season I would say Kobe was worthy of that All-NBA Defensive spot.

A lot of people get carried away though..

+1.

I feel the same way. His MVP year, he definitely picked up his play on defense.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Bro, you just told me this before:



You tell me. I will be waitng for more B.S. or deflection. Which ever may come first.

I'll take the absurd position that I value the 29 opposing coaches over 11 years than the statement of one coach who is known for being hypercritical of his teams own legendary players to a ridiculous level. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I know right ?

Who the hell thinks he can't play defense ? We just call it out for being overrated and we have supported this notion with coaches and NBA forums, youtube, etc... to formulate why we feel this way. But were hating on Kobe and his legacy.... SMH...

Do you think Kobe is the only legendary player who has been awarded all defensive awards that probably should have given to so name guy who wouldn't be in the league if it wasnt for his defense?

That's the point. It's not that Kobe may have been given awards that he didn't deserve. Its whether or not Kobe was given the benefit of the doubt on all defensive team more so than other legendary players in NBA history.

Why isn't the all defensive team police investigating Larry Bird's defensive awards? Jerry West's? LeBron James'? Tim Duncan? Michael Jordan's?

[Jacks3]

Doc Rivers after the 2008 Finals:

"Kobe might be the best help defender since Pippen"

:pimp:

[iamgine]

There are about three to four seasons I would say Kobe didn't deserve to make an all-defensive team. 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2009-2010, and 2010-2011. Every other season I would say Kobe was worthy of that All-NBA Defensive spot.

A lot of people get carried away though..
See, people feel something like this while head coaches voted different.

So are these head coaches blind? Biased? Told to do so? Really feel that way?

[Jacks3]

Of course it does. Kobe's accolades are treated with a fine toothed comb. No other legend gets the same treatment. Do you see anybody really hyped about how many all defensive team awards Michael Jordan really earned? When he won the DPOY did anybody bother to create some obscure formula like regularized adjusted +/- (RAPM) to find out that the best defensive player was probably some scrub big man who wouldnt even be in the league without his defensive abilities?

The idea of any player Kobe included winning awards based on his past reputation is even remotely controversial. The funny thing is you guys like to pretend this phenomena begins and ends with Kobe. Every single legend in this game has had a reputation that over inflated his perceived skills as their career progressed. Magic made the all star team for a year he didn't even play. He's won a Finals MVP on the basis of a single game.
Ether.

[Jacks3]

BREAKING NEWS! Tex Winter said Michael Jordan is the worst passer in NBA History!!!

http://i.imgur.com/8pUmr.png

:facepalm
Damn. Killing all those morons. :oldlol:

[Dwade305]

I see Bladers putting everyone in place dropping mad knowledge:bowdown:

Oh yeah his cheerleader Jacks be up in here too. Keep cheering

[ZaaaaaH]

This Thread got Robbed

[Jacks3]

Doc Rivers after the 2008 Finals:

"Kobe might be the best help defender since Pippen"

:pimp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEHbGDyTc2w

2:13 Mark:

"Kobe Bryant is single-handedly disrupting the Spurs offense"

Idiots. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

2010 First Round:

Westbrook averages 55% FG through the first four games. The Lakers switch Bryant on to him and he completely shuts him down. Holds him to 35% in the next two games. :bowdown:

[Jacks3]

Kobe #1 SG in DWS from 05-10.

[SuperPippen]

Nothing that anyone says here is changing anything.

No quotes or silly arguments are going to change the fact that Magic Johnson was superior to Kobe Bryant, and ISH collectively agrees. This debate is over.

Move on.

[AlphaWolf24]

Nothing that anyone says here is changing anything.

No quotes or silly arguments are going to change the fact that Magic Johnson was superior to Kobe Bryant, and ISH collectively agrees. This debate is over.

Move on.


Bullshit...if you poll every user and the thousands of people who view the thread...I bet Kobe get's past Magic....not to mention Wade past Cousy...easily.

this is 10 elitists fans who obviously have an agenda....



F@cking so Mad.......this is serious BIZNAZZ!!!


I kid


silly really

[AlphaWolf24]

the point is that they didn't have the best record in the league any of those years. playoffs don't matter in mvp voting

and in none of those years was kobe a clear mvp favorite

btw 2001 shaq was CLEARLY better, by any statistical or intangible measurement. if anything shaq was robbed of the mvp that year


again....they had the best record in the western Conference and won Championships.....and many MVP's have won without the best overall record.

and again...Kobe Bryant was the Lakers best overall player and widely regarded as the NBA's best allaround player....ESPN Shaq and Phil Jackson even said it....marginal stats hold little weight.

best allaround.....already a First team alldefensive player and the Lakers first option in Crunchtime....

Shaq never made an all defensive first team....and was the last option in crunchtime....no where near the allaround player Kobe was.



next

[AlphaWolf24]

There are about three to four seasons I would say Kobe didn't deserve to make an all-defensive team. 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2009-2010, and 2010-2011. Every other season I would say Kobe was worthy of that All-NBA Defensive spot.

A lot of people get carried away though..


:facepalm