ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #2 Kobe Bryant vs Magic Johnson.

[Kblaze8855]

Still filling in for GOAT till he returns. Last vote was 10-2 for Kobe.


Make your arguments here for the next 48 hours on rather Kobe or Magic should advance and continue to move higher on the list. Put the players name you are voting for in BOLD so I don't miss it when I tally. The loser of this poll will be ranked #3 in our project.

Only members listed on the project roster will have their votes counted. Anyone may add their opinion and or argument as long as it's constructive. Our roster is now finalized. If you like the project and think you can make it better please add your opinion. If you'd like to join in the forwards, centers or all-time top 67 project, please let GOAT know via PM. The Final Roster is listed below....

The Roster

L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
WillC
G.O.A.T
1987 Lakers
neyca
Toizumi
Shaqattack3234
Magnax1
RobertdeMeijer
nycelt84
KGMN
SteveNashMVPcro

Crossover (added after initial vote)
bizil (added after initial vote)
Boston C's (added at #20)
Gotterdammerung (added at #17)
SuperPippen (added at #14)
Big164 (added at #13)
Droid101 (added at #11)
D.J. (added at #11)
Miller for 3 (added at #10)
Odinn (added at #9)
OmniStrife (added at #9)
HylianNightmare (added at #9)
Pushxx (added at #9)
MasterDurant24 (added at #9)
Clippersfan86 (added at #9)

ThaRegul8r (contributor)
NugzHeat3 (contributor)
Psileas (contributor)
alexandreben (contributor)
EricForman (contributor)



http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/kobe-Bryant.jpg

15 seasons
2008 NBA MVP
13x all-NBA(1 3rd...did not exist in Jerry Wests day)
11x All-defensive
13x all-star(no ASG in 1999)
4x ASG MVP
5x NBA Champion
2X Finals MVP
2x scoring leader(top three in 6 seasons)
28.5-6-5 averages over 11 year prime
25/5/5 career average in the playoffs


vs


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_guJH_JA3Tms/TB6y6mAbm6I/AAAAAAAABJI/Q8sHipmCyas/s1600/magic_johnson_3.jpg




13 seasons(well...12 plus 36 games in 96)
3 time NBA MVP
10x all-NBA
12x all-star(including 1992...when he was not in the NBA)
2x ASG MVP
5x NBA Champion
3X Finals MVP
2X steals leader
4x assist leader(top 2 10 seasons in a row)
20-12-7 averages over 10 year prime
19-11-7 career average in the playoffs

[Legends66NBA7]

Though my vote does not count, Magic Johnson.

He is the Lakers, really. From the smile, showtime, winning culture, clutch, and all-around greatness.

Not to mention, Kobe idolized Magic growing up. Heard also broke down when he retired from the Lakers when he had to retire from the whole HIV thing, on Beyond the Glory.

On a side note, it's crazy to see the number 2,3, and 4 spots all filled up by Laker legends.

[pauk]

you dont even have to make this thread when u know the answer (magic)... what is there to debate?

which lunatic DARES to debate this?

[Legends66NBA7]

you dont even have to make this thread when u know the answer (magic)... what is there to debate?

which lunatic DARES to debate this?

Vanessa Bryant (aka her many accounts here from Jacks3 to legend 24, etc...)

[ZaaaaaH]

Haha, Haters are so quick on Kobe treads.

Lets ask Magic himself what he thinks but of course Haters know more about basketball then the stars themselves.

Let the Hate begin.

[Legends66NBA7]

Haha, Haters are so quick on Kobe treads.

Lets ask Magic himself what he thinks but of course Haters know more about basketball then the stars themselves.

Let the Hate begin.

Nothing to hate. It's obvious Magic will just win this one.

I'll let their resumes and big time moments speak for themeselves.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe crushes Magic defensively... Magic with a smaller edge on offense

Add to that Kobe's superior longevity and the idea that Magic is an obvious winner on this is silly.

[HylianNightmare]

Magic Johnson

tbh to me kobe just doesn't have a case, there is nothing wrong with being behind jordan and magic

[iamgine]

Too predictable. Kobe #3. Magic #2. Jordan #1.

Maybe people can vote Kobe #2 so he can go up against MJ?

[ThaSwagg3r]

Too predictable. Kobe #3. Magic #2. Jordan #1.

Maybe people can vote Kobe #2 so he can go up against MJ?
That is what I am going to do but I want to come up with reasons and such.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

That is what I am going to do but I want to come up with reasons and such.

Its pretty simple. One guy played defense at all league level and one didn't. One player won 5 rings with only 1 HOF teammate per title team and one didn't. One player had more all league seasons and all star seasons and one didn't. Outside of being skilled at avoiding the petty hate that Kobe was able to attract for the last decade what exactly is it about Magic's resume that beats Kobe? A couple more MVPs? One more Finals MVP? That beats 11 years of all league defense? That beats 3 more years of all nba level play? That beats what should be 3 more years of all star level play?

[ThaSwagg3r]

Its pretty simple. One guy played defense at all league level and one didn't. One player won 5 rings with only 1 HOF teammate per title team and one didn't. One player had more all league seasons and all star seasons and one didn't. Outside of being skilled at avoiding the petty hate that Kobe was able to attract for the last decade what exactly is it about Magic's resume that beats Kobe? A couple more MVPs? One more Finals MVP?
You're an idiot, you're one of the reasons why I am thinking about not arguing for Kobe.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're an idiot, you're one of the reasons why I am thinking about not arguing for Kobe.

Good counter point. The way you articulate your viewpoint is really intelligent and convincing.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Good counter point. The way you articulate your viewpoint is really intelligent and convincing.
Yep.

How many MVPs does Magic have and how many does Kobe have? How many Finals MVPs does Magic have and how many does have?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yep.

How many MVPs does Magic have and how many does Kobe have? How many Finals MVPs does Magic have and how many does have?

If only your reading comprehension was on par with your childish name calling :facepalm



Its pretty simple. One guy played defense at all league level and one didn't. One player won 5 rings with only 1 HOF teammate per title team and one didn't. One player had more all league seasons and all star seasons and one didn't. Outside of being skilled at avoiding the petty hate that Kobe was able to attract for the last decade what exactly is it about Magic's resume that beats Kobe? A couple more MVPs? One more Finals MVP? That beats 11 years of all league defense? That beats 3 more years of all nba level play? That beats what should be 3 more years of all star level play?

[ThaSwagg3r]

If only your reading comprehension was on par with your childish name calling :facepalm
Oh so more than Kobe, okay, thanks that is all I wanted to know.

So Kobe is inferior to Magic in three of the most important accomplishments of greatness? Thanks.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Oh so more than Kobe, okay, thanks that is all I wanted to know.

So Kobe is inferior to Magic in three of the most important accomplishments of greatness? Thanks.

You can count well too. Outside of insulting me, your counter argument consists of detailing Magic's only advantage which I described in my post in the first place. :oldlol:

[Legends66NBA7]

MVP's
Magic: 3
Kobe: 1

Finals MVP's
Magic: 3 ( should have been 4, in 88)
Kobe: 2

[Yao Ming's Foot]

MVP's
Magic: 3
Kobe: 1

Finals MVP's
Magic: 3 ( should have been 4, in 88)
Kobe: 2


vs

All league defensive awards
Magic: 0
Kobe: 11

All league awards

Magic: 10
Kobe: 13

All star awards

Magic: 12 (should be 11)
Kobe: 13 (should be 14)

All Star MVPs

Magic: 2
Kobe: 4

:confusedshrug:

Not sure why people pretend defense isn't 50% of the game

[Jacks3]

Magic has 2 Finals MVP's. lol @ dude getting 1980 Finals MVP. :rolleyes:

[pauk]

Too predictable. Kobe #3. Magic #2. Jordan #1.

Maybe people can vote Kobe #2 so he can go up against MJ?

then it will be MUCH less debatable... it will just turn into us bashing kobe / few kobe fans for saying that he is better than Jordan :lol

[ShaqAttack3234]

Magic's absolute prime('87-'91) was slightly better than Kobe's, imo. But Kobe had a longer prime. The way Magic controlled games once he posted up a lot and improved his outside shot was probably greater than Kobe ever did. Kobe was obviously a better scorer and defender, and people overlook his playmaking at times, while obviously not on Magic's level, he was still very good. Defense isn't as much of an issue when comparing their absolute best years because in a lot of Kobe's best seasons, he didn't consistently put in as much effort at that end, but I'd still call it an advantage.

Their primes are kind of difficult to compare directly because Kobe's started in '01 or '03 at the absolute latest and was interrupted by injuries and off the court problems in '04 and '05. I'd probably take '01-'03 Kobe over any pre-'87 version of Magic. While I think Magic's '87-'91 play is worthy of all the praise he receives, I think there's a double standard when it comes to Kobe's "sidekick rings" and Magic's early rings. And I think young Magic is overrated to some degree and lacked the complete skill set to impact a game the same way in the halfcourt. He brought less negatives as well.

I'll go with Magic, but it's closer than a lot of people admit. I look at prime more, but Kobe's longevity definitely gives him a case because I don't think their primes were that far apart.


MVP's
Magic: 3
Kobe: 1

Finals MVP's
Magic: 3 ( should have been 4, in 88)
Kobe: 2

Well, if we're talking about how many he should have then the answer is still 3. He got the 1980 finals MVP for game 6, but that ignored how Kareem was so much better and more valuable through the first 5 games and first 3 wins for the Lakers.

[tpols]

MVP's
Magic: 3
Shaq: 1

Finals MVP's
Magic: 3 (should have been 4, in 88)
Shaq: 3

Titles
Magic 5
Shaq 4

Magic has Shaq beat in every category of 'greatness' and yet is anyone going to act like Shaq and Magic aren't at all comparable? Do the other, lesser awards mean nothing? Is 5 extra years of dominant play/all nba teams/all star teams worth nothing?

Personally, I think Magic was the more impactful team player because he magnified his team's strength much more than Kobe did. Kobe, however, was the better individual player[one of greatest scorers ever plus one of the best defenders at SG for his generation..] and he had a longer and more successful career. People that think this isn't close are kidding themselves.

[magnax1]

I don't think you can find any offensive players that make more of an impact then passers on the level of Magic. Add the fact that he could score 20 on a nightly basis, and I'll take Magic by a moderate amount. The only reason this would be close is that Magic was a terrible defender. Sometimes that sort of stuff is exaggerated, but in Magic case it's not. He was honestly the worst defender at his position (among starters that is) by the time he was winning MVPs, and when he was younger he was still pretty bad other then the fact he got a lot of steals.
Either way, I'll take Magic

[AlphaWolf24]

MVP's
Magic: 3
Kobe: 1

Finals MVP's
Magic: 3 ( should have been 4, in 88)
Kobe: 2


come on son.....Media MVP's of the 00's:facepalm

Finals MVPS too?...:lol ...like the 00' - 02' Finals was L.A.'s toughest test??..:roll:

just like Magic brought everything it took to win to the Lakers...so did Kobe.




it's a great debate..but media awards holds little weight in this one.

[Legends66NBA7]

vs

All league defensive awards
Magic: 0
Kobe: 11

All league awards

Magic: 10
Kobe: 13

All star awards

Magic: 12 (should be 11)
Kobe: 13 (should be 14)

All Star MVPs

Magic: 2
Kobe: 4

:confusedshrug:

Not sure why people pretend defense isn't 50% of the game

Kobe Bryant

Regular Season (career)
25.3ppg 5.3reb 4.7ast 1.5stl 0.5blk 2.9t/o 45.4%fg 33.9%3pt 83.7%ft

Playoffs (career)
25.4ppg 5.1reb 4.8ast 1.4stl 0.7blk 2.9t/o 44.8%fg 33.5%3pt 81.5%ft

Finals (each year)
2000*: 15.6ppg 4.6reb 4.2ast 1.0stl 1.4blk 36.7%fg 20.0%3pt 90.9%ft
2001: 24.6ppg 7.8reb 5.8ast 1.4stl 1.4blk 41.5%fg 33.3%3pt 84.2%ft
2002: 26.8ppg 5.8reb 5.3ast 1.5stl 0.8blk 51.4%fg 54.5%3pt 80.6%ft
2004: 22.6ppg 2.8reb 4.4ast 1.8stl 0.6blk 38.1%fg 17.4%3pt 92.0%ft
2008: 25.7ppg 4.7reb 5.0ast 2.7stl 0.2blk 40.5%fg 32.1%3pt 79.6%ft
2009: 32.4ppg 5.6reb 7.4ast 1.4stl 1.4blk 43.0%fg 36.0%3pt 84.1%ft
2010: 28.6ppg 8.0reb 3.9ast 2.1stl 0.7blk 40.5%fg 31.9%3pt 88.3%ft

*Was injured during the series, missed game.

Magic Johnson

Regular Season (career)
19.5ppg 7.2reb 11.2ast 1.9stl 0.4blk 3.9t/o 52.0%fg 30.3%3pt 84.8%ft

Playoffs (career)
19.5ppg 7.7reb 12.3ast 1.9stl 0.3blk 50.6%fg 24.1%3pt 83.8%ft

Finals
1980: 21.5ppg 11.2reb 8.7ast 2.7stl 0.3blk 57.3%fg 87.5%ft
1982: 16.2ppg 10.8reb 8.0ast 2.5stl 0.3blk 53.3%fg 84.6%ft
1983: 19.0ppg 7.8reb 12.5ast 1.8stl 0.5blk 40.3%fg 92.9%ft
1984: 18.0ppg 7.7reb 13.6ast 2.0stl 0.9blk 56.0%fg 74.4%ft
1985: 18.3ppg 6.8reb 14.0ast 2.2stl 0.0blk 49.4%fg 50.0%3pt 87.1%ft
1987: 26.2ppg 8.0reb 13.0ast 2.3stl 0.3blk 54.1%fg 50.0%3pt 96.0%ft
1988: 21.1ppg 5.7reb 13.0ast 2.0stl 0.1blk 55.0%fg 33.3%3pt 86.6%ft
1989*: 11.7ppg 3.7reb 8.0ast 1.0stl 46.2%fg 20.0%3pt 90.9%ft
1991: 18.6ppg 8.0reb 12.4ast 1.2stl 43.1%fg 28.6%3pt 95.1%ft

*Was injured during the series, missed game.

Yes i'm really sure All-Star game MVP's are >> League and Finals MVP's, when their playing little to no defense in those exhibition games.

Yes, let's see how much of a game changer on defense Kobe is:

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

Now that's not to say Magic comes close to Kobe's defense, but really let's not act like Kobe is some big time game changer on defense, even with all those All-Defense Teams. Yes, he has deserved some, but some of his All-Defense First Team the last a couple of years have been through reputation.

Steals Titles
Magic: 2 (one was with 37 games though)
Kobe: 0 (Top 5, once)

If you want to go by advanced metrics, go right ahead. See how much that "favors" Kobe.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Okay Kblaze, I'm voting for Magic Johnson. I was thinking about voting for Kobe but since the Kobe trolls are in full force I have decided to just vote for Magic instead. I am decativating my account tomorrow as well and I don't expect Jeff/Steve/Admin to activate my account any time soon so count my vote for Michael Jordan for the #1 ranking.

[Legends66NBA7]

come on son.....Media MVP's of the 00's:facepalm

Finals MVPS too?...:lol ...like the 00' - 02' Finals was L.A.'s toughest test??..:roll:

just like Magic brought everything it took to win to the Lakers...so did Kobe.




it's a great debate..but media awards holds little weight in this one.

I'm not doubting eithers ability to win. I just think Magic was the better player and leader.

Yeah, that's why just went into the impact. Someone here mentioned All-Star game MVP's and All-Star apperances. Like that really is going to change something...

For stricly Laker fans, #2, 3, and 4 spots on the guard list is damn impressive.

[Jacks3]

Kobe has the higher career and peak PER. He has the higher WAR.

And lol @ that clown just listing Finals and not entire playoff runs. :oldlol:

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe Bryant

Regular Season (career)
25.3ppg 5.3reb 4.7ast 1.5stl 0.5blk 2.9t/o 45.4%fg 33.9%3pt 83.7%ft

Playoffs (career)
25.4ppg 5.1reb 4.8ast 1.4stl 0.7blk 2.9t/o 44.8%fg 33.5%3pt 81.5%ft

Finals (each year)
2000*: 15.6ppg 4.6reb 4.2ast 1.0stl 1.4blk 36.7%fg 20.0%3pt 90.9%ft
2001: 24.6ppg 7.8reb 5.8ast 1.4stl 1.4blk 41.5%fg 33.3%3pt 84.2%ft
2002: 26.8ppg 5.8reb 5.3ast 1.5stl 0.8blk 51.4%fg 54.5%3pt 80.6%ft
2004: 22.6ppg 2.8reb 4.4ast 1.8stl 0.6blk 38.1%fg 17.4%3pt 92.0%ft
2008: 25.7ppg 4.7reb 5.0ast 2.7stl 0.2blk 40.5%fg 32.1%3pt 79.6%ft
2009: 32.4ppg 5.6reb 7.4ast 1.4stl 1.4blk 43.0%fg 36.0%3pt 84.1%ft
2010: 28.6ppg 8.0reb 3.9ast 2.1stl 0.7blk 40.5%fg 31.9%3pt 88.3%ft

*Was injured during the series, missed game.

Magic Johnson

Regular Season (career)
19.5ppg 7.2reb 11.2ast 1.9stl 0.4blk 3.9t/o 52.0%fg 30.3%3pt 84.8%ft

Playoffs (career)
19.5ppg 7.7reb 12.3ast 1.9stl 0.3blk 50.6%fg 24.1%3pt 83.8%ft

Finals
1980: 21.5ppg 11.2reb 8.7ast 2.7stl 0.3blk 57.3%fg 87.5%ft
1982: 16.2ppg 10.8reb 8.0ast 2.5stl 0.3blk 53.3%fg 84.6%ft
1983: 19.0ppg 7.8reb 12.5ast 1.8stl 0.5blk 40.3%fg 92.9%ft
1984: 18.0ppg 7.7reb 13.6ast 2.0stl 0.9blk 56.0%fg 74.4%ft
1985: 18.3ppg 6.8reb 14.0ast 2.2stl 0.0blk 49.4%fg 50.0%3pt 87.1%ft
1987: 26.2ppg 8.0reb 13.0ast 2.3stl 0.3blk 54.1%fg 50.0%3pt 96.0%ft
1988: 21.1ppg 5.7reb 13.0ast 2.0stl 0.1blk 55.0%fg 33.3%3pt 86.6%ft
1989*: 11.7ppg 3.7reb 8.0ast 1.0stl 46.2%fg 20.0%3pt 90.9%ft
1991: 18.6ppg 8.0reb 12.4ast 1.2stl 43.1%fg 28.6%3pt 95.1%ft

*Was injured during the series, missed game.

Yes i'm really sure All-Star game MVP's are >> League and Finals MVP's, when their playing little to no defense in those exhibition games.

Yes, let's see how much of a game changer on defense Kobe is:

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

Now that's not to say Magic comes close to Kobe's defense, but really let's not act like Kobe is some big time game changer on defense, even with all those All-Defense Teams. Yes, he has deserved some, but some of his All-Defense First Team the last a couple of years have been through reputation.

Steals Titles
Magic: 2 (one was with 37 games though)
Kobe: 0 (Top 5, once)

If you want to go by advanced metrics, go right ahead. See how much that "favors" Kobe.

Lost all credibility.....

So you gonna discredit Jordan Magic and Bird for all thier awards they didn't deserve....Jordan won all defensive awards when he wasn't even the best defending SG on his team!!!!


Kobe was top shelf defense and guarded the other teams best perimeter scorer....to go along with being the first option in the the quarter and crunchtime

Kobe as a starter and over a decade averages..

28.3PPG 6.2REB 5.0AST 7 NBA Finals and 5 Championships to go along with being a top shelf defender....

and the greatest Laker of alltime....and still going.

[pauk]

MVP's
Magic: 3
Shaq: 1

Finals MVP's
Magic: 3 (should have been 4, in 88)
Shaq: 3

Titles
Magic 5
Shaq 4

Magic has Shaq beat in every category of 'greatness' and yet is anyone going to act like Shaq and Magic aren't at all comparable? Do the other, lesser awards mean nothing? Is 5 extra years of dominant play/all nba teams/all star teams worth nothing?

Personally, I think Magic was the more impactful team player because he magnified his team's strength much more than Kobe did. Kobe, however, was the better individual player [one of greatest scorers ever plus one of the best defenders at SG for his generation..] and he had a longer and more successful career. People that think this isn't close are kidding themselves.

http://uppix.net/f/5/2/06863ac4fa9e57b82642679546612.gif

[Legends66NBA7]

Lost all credibility.....

So you gonna discredit Jordan Magic and Bird for all thier awards they didn't deserve....Jordan won all defensive awards when he wasn't even the best defending SG on his team!!!!


Kobe was top shelf defense and guarded the other teams best perimeter scorer....to go along with being the first option in the the quarter and crunchtime

Kobe as a starter and over a decade averages..

28.3PPG 6.2REB 5.0AST 7 NBA Finals and 5 Championships to go along with being a top shelf defender....

and the greatest Laker of alltime....and still going.

Yes, i don't doubt his starter numbers. In any case, we would have to take out Magic's 96 comeback as well.

His consistency on defense the last couple of years ? Yes it has been inconsistent. Yet he got rewarded for All-Defense First Teams.

Agree to disagree.

[Nick Young]

The one with more All-NBA teams, he didn't get a chance to play with Kareem and Worthy but STILL has as many rings as magicc

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Magic
but it's close

[Doctor Rivers]

Still filling in for GOAT till he returns. Last vote was 10-2 for Kobe.


Make your arguments here for the next 48 hours on rather Kobe or Magic should advance and continue to move higher on the list. Put the players name you are voting for in BOLD so I don't miss it when I tally. The loser of this poll will be ranked #3 in our project.

Only members listed on the project roster will have their votes counted. Anyone may add their opinion and or argument as long as it's constructive. Our roster is now finalized. If you like the project and think you can make it better please add your opinion. If you'd like to join in the forwards, centers or all-time top 67 project, please let GOAT know via PM. The Final Roster is listed below....

The Roster

L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
WillC
G.O.A.T
1987 Lakers
neyca
Toizumi
Shaqattack3234
Magnax1
RobertdeMeijer
nycelt84
KGMN
SteveNashMVPcro

Crossover (added after initial vote)
bizil (added after initial vote)
Boston C's (added at #20)
Gotterdammerung (added at #17)
SuperPippen (added at #14)
Big164 (added at #13)
Droid101 (added at #11)
D.J. (added at #11)
Miller for 3 (added at #10)
Odinn (added at #9)
OmniStrife (added at #9)
HylianNightmare (added at #9)
Pushxx (added at #9)
MasterDurant24 (added at #9)
Clippersfan86 (added at #9)

ThaRegul8r (contributor)
NugzHeat3 (contributor)
Psileas (contributor)
alexandreben (contributor)
EricForman (contributor)



http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/kobe-Bryant.jpg

15 seasons
2008 NBA MVP
13x all-NBA(1 3rd...did not exist in Jerry Wests day)
11x All-defensive
13x all-star(no ASG in 1999)
4x ASG MVP
5x NBA Champion
2X Finals MVP
2x scoring leader(top three in 6 seasons)
28.5-6-5 averages over 11 year prime
25/5/5 career average in the playoffs


vs


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_guJH_JA3Tms/TB6y6mAbm6I/AAAAAAAABJI/Q8sHipmCyas/s1600/magic_johnson_3.jpg




13 seasons(well...12 plus 36 games in 96)
3 time NBA MVP
10x all-NBA
12x all-star(including 1992...when he was not in the NBA)
2x ASG MVP
5x NBA Champion
3X Finals MVP
2X steals leader
4x assist leader(top 2 10 seasons in a row)
20-12-7 averages over 10 year prime
19-11-7 career average in the playoffs

WADE

[Odinn]

Magic Johnson without a doubt.

[Rose]

Magic, for obvious reasons.

[macpierce]

probably magic johnson :banana:

[NumberSix]

Is there a single person who actually thinks Kobe Bryant is better than Magic Johnson? Really?

[ZaaaaaH]

The one with more All-NBA teams, he didn't get a chance to play with Kareem and Worthy but STILL has as many rings as magicc


Shaq is just as good as Kareem if not better during prime but Kobes effort for those first 3 peat gets no credit from these haters who use to hate Kobe for no reason back in the days and now they google/yahoo it up and search for dumb asss numbers so they can keep on hating and FAIL.

Give the man his respect Kobe is the GREATEST LAKER of ALL TIME and he is not Done Yet.

Lets not even Compare the Talent Magic had compare to Kobe. Magic is a 6'9 PG who cant shoot guarded, He better be a Great play maker especially with all those HOF's who can make shots/ finish plays.

I just want these so called "Experts" on this forum to do their research instead of going by popularity. I see bunch of Idiots who know nothing about Magic and acting like they have been following him for years.

This debate is very close for dumb haters acting like their is no case. MJ vs MJ will be a better debate compare to MJ vs Kobe but Kobe was better then MJ and I aint gonna tell ya which MJ because we all know the real MJ is MJ who ran the league with style just like Kobe in 2000 era.

MJ MJ MJ ya know who the best is and I aint talking about Magic.

[EricForman]

I think this is very close, but I'd have to go with Magic, simply because he was dominant from the first day until he retired (his career ended early too, he coulda been productive for a few more years) and the gap between him and Kareem from the early days was closer than the gap between Kobe and Shaq (huge in 2000).

[Miller for 3]

Magic for obvious reasons. Best to move along before this thread gets filled with "U MAD" Kobe trolls

[ZaaaaaH]

Magic for obvious reasons. Best to move along before this thread gets filled with "U MAD" Kobe trolls


Please tell me those "Obvious" reasonS nub?

Its "Obvious" Kobe is better for those reasons. You should move along before I owned ur nub asss in this tread.

[MiseryCityTexas]

magic is the lakers all time steals and assist leader. so magic is better.

[ZaaaaaH]

magic is the lakers all time steals and assist leader. so magic is better.

Stockton is better then Magic since He is the ALL TIME NBA Leader. :facepalm

One retard down.

Next.

[Carbine]

It's kinda funny that Magic will win this by a pretty easy margin, but when Kobe is 15+ removed from the leagie via retirement, it will end up being a 50/50 split at worst for Kobe....and 75/25 at best in favor of Bryant.

[IGOTGAME]

It's kinda funny that Magic will win this by a pretty easy margin, but when Kobe is 15+ removed from the leagie via retirement, it will end up being a 50/50 split at worst for Kobe....and 75/25 at best in favor of Bryant.
I doubt it. Kobe imo is going to go down after retirement. He has a legion of stat based haters unlike any other.

I wouldn't be surprised if bruceblitz convinces people here Kobe isn't a top 20 player during that time period.

[catch24]

I doubt it. Kobe imo is going to go down after retirement. He has a legion of stat based haters unlike any other.

I wouldn't be surprised if bruceblitz convinces people here Kobe isn't a top 20 player during that time period.

If Kobe continues to win more championships, I'm not really sure you can 'hate' on his legacy; don't think he'll drop either. Bill Russell has moderately-good individual statistics but his led-championships are why he's at the very least top 5. Kobe needs to continue to win, and if he does, he's going up...not down.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Gotta love the guys who claim its so obvious yet struggle to actually point out something worthwhile :oldlol:

I think people really have deluded themselves into thinking Kobe Bryant is simply 5 RINGSSSSS and don't know how to react when his sustained level of extended dominance (All star awards, All league awards and all defensive team awards) matches up favorably to pretty much anybody and everybody in the history of the league.

[IGOTGAME]

If Kobe continues to win more championships, I'm not really sure you can 'hate' on his legacy; don't think he'll drop either. Bill Russell has moderately-good individual statistics but his led-championships are why he's at the very least top 5. Kobe needs to continue to win, and if he does, he's going up...not down.
maybe. The only thing I would add is there infinitely more gametape and advanced stats for Kobe to get hated on for. Also, I'm not sure la is gonna win any more titles with kobe. They need to shake things up.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

maybe. The only thing I would add is there infinitely more gametape and advanced stats for Kobe to get hated on for. Also, I'm not sure la is gonna win any more titles with kobe. They need to shake things up.

The fallacy is that "advanced stats" has ever mattered in player legacy. It hasn't and never will. How many more Derick Rose and Steve Nash MVPs do you all need to see to realize this?

[EricForman]

The one with more All-NBA teams, he didn't get a chance to play with Kareem and Worthy but STILL has as many rings as magicc

only you (and your troll crew) would act like 2000 Shaq was inferior to Kareem in the 80s or somehow pump James Worthy to be an elite legend when he was no better than Vince Carter or, you know, Pau Gasol.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

only you (and your troll crew) would act like 2000 Shaq was inferior to Kareem in the 80s or somehow pump James Worthy to be an elite legend when he was no better than Vince Carter or, you know, Pau Gasol.

The difference is Magic had Kareem AND Worthy.... Kobe had Shaq OR Gasol

[EricForman]

The difference is Magic had Kareem AND Worthy.... Kobe had Shaq OR Gasol

and Magic played his rival, who had McHale,Paris and DJ...

gotta look at eras. Magic's team was stacked but he went at a stacked team in Boston too. Now if Boston never existed and Magic was just feasting on poor overmatched mid 80s Bulls or Pistons, then I'd knock MAgic for having superior help. But that wasn't the case.

[AlphaWolf24]

and Magic played his rival, who had McHale,Paris and DJ...

gotta look at eras. Magic's team was stacked but he went at a stacked team in Boston too. Now if Boston never existed and Magic was just feasting on poor overmatched mid 80s Bulls or Pistons, then I'd knock MAgic for having superior help. But that wasn't the case.


yeah he played them 3 times in 12 years and beat them twice...:rockon:

you got nothing.....




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[Nick Young]

only you (and your troll crew) would act like 2000 Shaq was inferior to Kareem in the 80s or somehow pump James Worthy to be an elite legend when he was no better than Vince Carter or, you know, Pau Gasol.
LOL Magic had Kareem and Worthy AT THE SAME TIME not to mention quality role players like Byron Scott and Kurt Rambis.

The best third option Kobe ever had was an old grandpa Glen Rice or a grandpa Karl Malone

[EricForman]

LOL Magic had Kareem and Worthy AT THE SAME TIME not to mention quality role players like Byron Scott and Kurt Rambis.

The best third option Kobe ever had was an old grandpa Glen Rice or a grandpa Karl Malone

As long as there were other team(s) in the league with similar fire power (and Boston did), than Magic wasn't exactly getting an unfair advantage. Also, 2000 Shaq was better than any Kareem in the 80s.

It's so sad, Kobe trolls have to take down everyone to make Kobe better, even Magic, a guy who did so much for the franchise Kobe's played for.

Listen, I won't argue with you on Magic vs Kobe, because Kobe HAS A CASE of being better than him, so you may have a point. unlike, you know, MICHAEL JORDAN. :oldlol:

UMAD?

[andgar923]

Magic hands down.

Sure, Kobe can score better/more, he can play better defense, but Magic just knows how to play better.... .specially when it matters the most.

Magic's IQ alone>>>>

[MasterDurant24]

yeah he played them 3 times in 12 years and beat them twice...:rockon:

you got nothing.....




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He also faced the Sixers with Dr.J, Toney, Cheeks, Bobby Jones, and later Moses. And the Pistons with Dantley, Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, Vinnie Johnson, and later Mark Aguirre. Who are way better than the Nets, Pacers, Sixers, and Magic(09).



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[ZaaaaaH]

Magic hands down.

Sure, Kobe can score better/more, he can play better defense, but Magic just knows how to play better.... .specially when it matters the most.

Magic's IQ alone>>>>


LOL so If Kobe can score and play better defense which is pretty much 100% of the game then how is it "Hands down" ?

I do agree Magic had a better TEAM Bball IQ with better Instincts but those alone does not make him better then Kobe.

Lets all be real if you are not over 40 you know shiit about 80's Basketball. I can pin point the haters Clearly in this tread especially the ones who pick Magic with no argument since they have none to begin with because they lack the knowledge and have Kobe hate take over them. Bottom line I only see two Legit post saying Magic was better and one of them is by Shaqattack but then again Shaqattack picked Nash over Iverson....

[ZaaaaaH]

He also faced the Sixers with Dr.J, Toney, Cheeks, Bobby Jones, and later Moses. And the Pistons with Dantley, Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, Vinnie Johnson, and later Mark Aguirre. Who are way better than the Nets, Pacers, Sixers, and Magic(09).



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Again Haters fail to mention 2010 Boston since they want to make their argument sound much better. :lol

What a loser.:facepalm

[andgar923]

LOL so If Kobe can score and play better defense which is pretty much 100% of the game then how is it "Hands down" ?

I do agree Magic had a better TEAM Bball IQ with better Instincts but those alone does not make him better then Kobe.

Lets all be real if you are not over 40 you know shiit about 80's Basketball. I can pin point the haters Clearly in this tread especially the ones who pick Magic with no argument since they have none to begin with because they lack the knowledge and have Kobe hate take over them. Bottom line I only see two Legit post saying Magic was better and one of them is by Shaqattack but then again Shaqattack picked Nash over Iverson....

because there's other aspects besides just those two. And as anybody can tell you, Magic could control the game without his scoring and be more impactful than Kobe could dropping 40 pts.

And it aint as if Kobe was a great dominant defender either. I'm sure that the gap isn't as wide as Kobe fans want to make it. Sure, Magic wasn't as great of a one on one defender as Kobe, but Magic was good at helping and anticipating, somehow he just made the right play defensively.

And Magic handling the ball dropping 12 assists and 19 points is more dangerous offensively than Kobe due to the various mismatch problems he presents. His ability to not just create a shot for himself on anybody guarding him but also getting his teammates involved is more potent.

But if we wanna go ahead and start listing things that Magic is better than Kobe at doing... here we go:

Leadership
IQ
Rebounding
Passing
Help defense
Creating mismatch problems
Offensive impact

Kobe... can score better and defend better. Although the impact offensively isn't as great, and the impact defensively is marginal.

Get mad.

[iamgine]

Kobe beat West and West Beat Oscar but I wonder if Kobe would've beaten Oscar.

[Droid101]

Kobe Bryant wins on most advanced statistics... the ones that more accurately predict future outcomes for individuals and teams.

Magic himself has even said Kobe has surpassed him as the greatest Laker. Kobe is going to hold every Laker career record when it's all said and done.

Kobe Bryant by a razor thin margin.

[SteveNashMVPcro]

I already voted i just wanna explain
Kobe is a better individual player-he has one if the all time best scoring arsenal,he's a great shooter and also is a better man to man defender
Magic is a better passer and playmaker(although Kobe can make some great passes) and a better rebounder.
If you sum this up Kobe wins this not by a lot but still does BUT this is a GOAT list so you have to add inpact and awards ofc
MVP's-Magic 3 Kobe 1
FMVP's-Magic 3 Kobe 2
rings tie@ 5 but Kobe wasn't a big factor in the 1st one
Kobe has the edge on longetivity
But the thing is Magic left a bigger inpact-along with Bird and MJ he was the best player in maybe the best era of basketball,he made NBA more popular
And yeah Magic has some legendery playoff moments and games-Kobe not so much-the greatest moment he had is probably the gamewinner vs the Suns in 2006 and no realy legendery games in the finals while Magic has his skyhook vs Boston and.that 42 15 8 in game 6 of his 1st finals in wich he started as a C

[zay_24]

Bean is a better:
Scorer
Shooter
Defender
Clutch
Leader
passer

how is magic better:roll:

[SuperPippen]

Bean is a better:
Scorer
Shooter
Defender
Clutch
Leader
passer

how is magic better:roll:

lol, you're a funny guy.

[SteveNashMVPcro]

Bean is a better:
Scorer
Shooter
Defender
Clutch
Leader
passer

how is magic better:roll:
Magic is just as clutch if not more clutch than Kobe
passer?Kobe is a good passer but Magic is just better
leader?Both are among all time greates leaders so this is arguable
Magic is also a better rebounder
Kobe
scorring
Shooting
defense

Magic
passing
rebounding


All other skills can go either way

[WillC]

Remember when Shaq left LA and Kobe struggled to keep the Lakers in the playoff rankings? I just can't imagine Magic being in that situation - he was too good.

Magic guaranteed championships. Just surround him with good finishers and defenders, and he'll do the rest.

This is an easy decision for me: Magic Johnson gets my vote.

[RobertdeMeijer]

Magic's story in short:

Beats Bird in college, brings L.A. a championship, becomes a dick in his second season, redeems himself in his third with another championship, loses to Bird, then beats Bird, then beats Bird a third time to set matters straight, then wins a second in a row with a subpar Kareem(five by now), leads team to Finals without Kareem, wins an All Star MVP after retirement, plays in the Dream Team.

I won't go into details how "great" Kobe's story was, but it's not as magnificient as Magic Johnson's

[TrueAristotle]

Bean is a better:
Scorer
Shooter
Defender
Clutch
Leader
passer

how is magic better:roll:
Better defender, shooter, and scorer are the only ones that are true.

[kaiiu]

Bean Bryant

[KGMN]

Magic Johnson

[RRR3]

Kobe beat West and West Beat Oscar but I wonder if Kobe would've beaten Oscar.
Good point. On this board, probably.

[BlueandGold]

Just to add in my two cents.. although Magic may have been slightly the better playoff performer he was nearly a liability on the defensive end. Kobe on the other hand has made 11 all-defensive NBA teams and although some years may have been unwarranted his whole body of work as a defensive player is much more impressive than Magic's body of work as a defensive player.

If I had a vote I would put Kobe over Magic, as one poster put it: "by a razor thin margin".

[TrueAristotle]

Just to add in my two cents.. although Magic may have been slightly the better playoff performer he was nearly a liability on the defensive end. Kobe on the other hand has made 11 all-defensive NBA teams and although some years may have been unwarranted his whole body of work as a defensive player is much more impressive than Magic's body of work as a defensive player.
:rolleyes:

[RRR3]

Just to add in my two cents.. although Magic may have been slightly the better playoff performer he was nearly a liability on the defensive end. Kobe on the other hand has made 11 all-defensive NBA teams and although some years may have been unwarranted his whole body of work as a defensive player is much more impressive than Magic's body of work as a defensive player.

Magic was bad at guarding PG's due to his size. That doesn't mean he couldn't guard other positions decently.

[TrueAristotle]

Magic Johnson was a really good help defender. Calling him a liability would be like calling Larry Bird a liability.

[AlphaWolf24]

Remember when Shaq left LA and Kobe struggled to keep the Lakers in the playoff rankings? I just can't imagine Magic being in that situation - he was too good.

Magic guaranteed championships. Just surround him with good finishers and defenders, and he'll do the rest.

This is an easy decision for me: Magic Johnson gets my vote.

Reason #1 why Magic is also better then Michael Jordan...Jordan had 5 Losing seasons.....

[AlphaWolf24]

Magic's story in short:

Beats Bird in college, brings L.A. a championship, becomes a dick in his second season, redeems himself in his third with another championship, loses to Bird, then beats Bird, then beats Bird a third time to set matters straight, then wins a second in a row with a subpar Kareem(five by now), leads team to Finals without Kareem, wins an All Star MVP after retirement, plays in the Dream Team.

I won't go into details how "great" Kobe's story was, but it's not as magnificient as Magic Johnson's


Enters the NBA at 17 years old....wins the Dunk contest at 18, is a NBA Allstar at 19 years old, NBA Champion at 21 years old....at 22 is widely viewed as the NBA best allaround player (already a 1rst team all defensive team and a 29PPG 6REB 6AST playoff run under his belt)...at 23 years old caps a 3 Peat on only the 3rd team in NBA History to do so....

By 24 years old puts up a scoring spree for the ages dropping 40 Point games not seen since Wilt Chamberlain....

at 26 years old he puts up what many consider the greatest scoring exhibition in NBA History...and probably the most iconic moment of his generation....to go along with one of the greatest offensive season's ever.

at 28 years old is finally named MVP after many years of deserving so.

at 29 years old wins his 4th NBA Championship....puts together one of the greatest Postseason runs ever.

at 30 is named the greatest player of his generation by a landslide....wins his 5th NBA Title in 7 NBA Finals in a 10 year span....for a decade average of 28PPG 6REB 5AST ...5X Champion in 7 NBA Finals...to go along with too many memorable moments to name....Kobe Bryant is according to most...

the greatest Laker of alltime.

[RRR3]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal and Wilt Chamberlain all played on the Lakers too the last time I checked...

[Heavincent]

Magic was bad at guarding PG's due to his size. That doesn't mean he couldn't guard other positions decently.

Kobe was still a better defender.

[RRR3]

Kobe was still a better defender.
No shit. I know that. But people are acting like Magic was ****ing Steve Nash on D.

[TrueAristotle]

Kobe was still a better defender.
He is but not to the extent the Kobe fans are saying in this thread. If they were Laker fans they would know Magic wasn't that bad defensively.

[AlphaWolf24]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal and Wilt Chamberlain all played on the Lakers too the last time I checked...


yeah...and?....... Kobe is still by acclamation better ....

and Magic replaced Kareem with Vlade Divac and barely skipped a beat and nearly beat prime Jordan and Pippen...



Kobe skillwise is much better then any of those players...



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[RRR3]

yeah...and?....... Kobe is still by acclamation better ....



and skillwise much better...



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Any sane basketball fan has those three over Kobe on the GOAT list. GTFO

[SFMF]

Kobe at 32 averaged 22.8 PPG 3.4 RPG 3.3 APG (while shockingly getting swept by Dallas after three consecutive finals appearances) and Magic at 31 averaged 21.8 PPG 8.1 RPG 12.6 APG in playoffs. People on this forum love to discuss the great years of a player and disregard the failures that he had, especially when it's your favourite player (they always bring up the bad aspects of players who are compared to their fav player as well).

Why do you think people give less credit to Kobe's first three championships compared to other greats who won as leaders? No finals MVPs for those years. I still can't believe he had more FGA than Shaq from '00-'01~'02-'03 both in regular seasons and playoffs. In one year, Kobe-led Lakers didn't even make the playoffs while he was in his best years of his career. Kobe was consistently called the best player in NBA, yet he has only one MVP award... Magic not only has more MVP and finals MVP awards (he won all his rings and finals MVPs with Kareem) but he also was in top 3 of MVP voting's from '82-'83~'90-'91...for 9 straight seasons. I mean... Kobe's tied with Derick Rose already with one MVP award after 15 years, years that made the media say that he is the next MJ, and he is better than MJ? I don't think he deserves comparisons with Magic Johnson at all.

[AlphaWolf24]

Most crazy basketball illiterate self proclaimed "basketball elitists" basketball fan has those three over Kobe on the GOAT list....for whatever their stupid reasons . ......they need to GTFO



fixed

[RRR3]

HURRR DURRR! KOBEEEEEE! MY GAY LOVE! SLURP DROOL! PANT! HURR

ewwwwwww.....:wtf:
Keep it to yourself, OmegaMutt

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe at 32 averaged 22.8 PPG 3.4 RPG 3.3 APG (while shockingly getting swept by Dallas after three consecutive finals appearances) and Magic at 31 averaged 21.8 PPG 8.1 RPG 12.6 APG in playoffs. People on this forum love to discuss the great years of a player and disregard the failures that he had, especially when it's your favourite player (they always bring up the bad aspects of players who are compared to their fav player as well).

Why do you think people give less credit to Kobe's first three championships compared to other greats who won as leaders? No finals MVPs for those years. I still can't believe he had more FGA than Shaq from '00-'01~'02-'03 both in regular seasons and playoffs. In one year, Kobe-led Lakers didn't even make the playoffs while he was in his best years of his career. Kobe was consistently called the best player in NBA, yet he has only one MVP award... Magic not only has more MVP and finals MVP awards (he won all his rings and finals MVPs with Kareem) but he also was in top 3 of MVP voting's from '82-'83~'90-'91...for 9 straight seasons. I mean... Kobe's tied with Derick Rose already with one MVP award after 15 years, years that made the media say that he is the next MJ, and he is better than MJ? I don't think he deserves comparisons with Magic Johnson at all.

:roll: who?..Online Basketball elitists...every fan I meet in the real world recognizes how great Kobe was then.....01' 29PPG 6REB 6AST in the playoff's with a 33PPG 7REB &AST series vs the Spurs....

but your here saying Magic was the "man" and carried Kareem sidekick azz becuase he won Finals MVP in 1980???:lol ....is that the logic?

again....hardly anyone in the real world agrees with the B.S. we type here...we are a very small % of the fanbase


Kobe was Voted Best Player of the 00's by far....by the majority of fans...

save the elitists BS....No one cares outside of here...5X Champion and Best player of his generation.....and it aint even close.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg

so who are these mysterious "people" that believe Kobe was just lucky to have Shaq???....in fact going by numbers....it looks like most fans Know basketball when they see it...they Know "skill" and what player's capture thier imagination and have "it"...they can look past flawed stats and biased media awards....they know game when it's in their face.

you crazy thinking a 7'er with NO GAME beyond 5' from the hoop with Lack of skill to close out a game is a better player then Kobe...

hardly anyone agrees with you




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[SFMF]

:roll: who?..Online Basketball elitists...every fan I meet in the real world recognizes how great Kobe was then.....01' 29PPG 6REB 6AST in the playoff's with a 33PPG 7REB &AST series vs the Spurs....

but your here saying Magic was the "man" and carried Kareem sidekick azz becuase he won Finals MVP in 1980???:lol ....is that the logic?

again....hardly anyone in the real world agrees with the B.S. we type here...we are a very small % of the fanbase


Kobe was Voted Best Player of the 00's by far....by the majority of fans...

save the elitists BS....No one cares outside of here...5X Champion and Best player of his generation.....and it aint even close.




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I guess 24 in your user name wasn't for Richard Jefferson.

[Heavincent]

Any sane basketball fan has those three over Kobe on the GOAT list. GTFO

Then I guess Jerry West isn't a sane basketball fan. He thinks Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time.

PS: This doesn't mean I think Kobe is above those three.

[RRR3]

Then I guess Jerry West isn't a sane basketball fan. He thinks Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time.

PS: This doesn't mean I think Kobe is above those three.
Jerry West also said LeBron was better than Kobe, so I don't think you of all people want to use him to back up anything. :oldlol:

[AlphaWolf24]

I guess 24 in your user name wasn't for Richard Jefferson.


meh....someone copied my account and stole "AlphaWolf"...so I had to add the "# of the shotclock"..."hours of the day"...


hey look at your avatar..it has Jordan in it:rolleyes:



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[AlphaWolf24]

Jerry West also said LeBron was better than Kobe, so I don't think you of all people want to use him to back up anything. :oldlol:


alltime or for 1/2 of the season???


thought so....


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[Heavincent]

Jerry West also said LeBron was better than Kobe, so I don't think you of all people want to use him to back up anything. :oldlol:

Looks like reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

I clearly wasn't using Jerry West's opinion to back up Kobe.

[RRR3]

Looks like reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

I clearly wasn't using Jerry West's opinion to back up Kobe.
Then why would you even put it out there? :facepalm It's irrelevant and you shouldn't have posted it, especially if you think Magic>Kobe.

[Heavincent]

Then why would you even put it out there? :facepalm It's irrelevant and you shouldn't have posted it, especially if you think Magic>Kobe.

Oh sweet Jesus :facepalm

It was to point out that you think Jerry West is an insane basketball fan. That's pretty stupid considering Jerry West is a top 15 player all-time, but apparently you know more about basketball :facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

Then why would you even put it out there? :facepalm It's irrelevant and you shouldn't have posted it, especially if you think Magic>Kobe.

Because someone (was it you) said No sane basketball fan would say Kobe>Magic....

when clearly Jerry West has said that many times....If he believes Kobe is the greatest "LAKER OF ALLTIME" that means he's saying Kobe is better then Magic...


cot damn.....with all the "basketball math" that goes on here you would think y'all would have undertood...


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__________________________________________________ ____

Din't Magic even say Kobe = GOAL's???

:roll:


but 3% of fans online say Kobe was overrated for 3peating with Shaq who hardly did sh!t without Kobe and 90% of the fanbase views Kobe as the greatest player of the 2000's ....but that don't mean anything???



this is just silly.

[Doctor Rivers]

Oh sweet Jesus :facepalm

It was to point out that you think Jerry West is an insane basketball fan. That's pretty stupid considering Jerry West is a top 15 player all-time, but apparently you know more about basketball :facepalm

OWNED

[ZaaaaaH]

because there's other aspects besides just those two. And as anybody can tell you, Magic could control the game without his scoring and be more impactful than Kobe could dropping 40 pts.

And it aint as if Kobe was a great dominant defender either. I'm sure that the gap isn't as wide as Kobe fans want to make it. Sure, Magic wasn't as great of a one on one defender as Kobe, but Magic was good at helping and anticipating, somehow he just made the right play defensively.

And Magic handling the ball dropping 12 assists and 19 points is more dangerous offensively than Kobe due to the various mismatch problems he presents. His ability to not just create a shot for himself on anybody guarding him but also getting his teammates involved is more potent.

But if we wanna go ahead and start listing things that Magic is better than Kobe at doing... here we go:

Leadership
IQ
Rebounding
Passing
Help defense
Creating mismatch problems
Offensive impact

Kobe... can score better and defend better. Although the impact offensively isn't as great, and the impact defensively is marginal.

Get mad.


Anyone who tells you Magic impacts the game far greater then Kobe is a fool with lack of knowledge of the game. Magic was only potent on offense do to the style the Lakers played and having great finishers surrounding him. Kobe in the other hand had no one in the league who can stop him which created more match up problems do to them playing team defense. Magics rebounds and assist are overrated.

As a guard its hard to be a "Dominant" defender. Only player to do so is the Real MJ which why he is on the top. Also as a Guard if you are a Lock Down defender that is amazing asset to have on a team. Only Bigs can be Dominant Defender so do not take Kobes defense for granted. I can agree if you say he play lazy at times.

I can agree to certain extent that getting Team involved is more important then ur Star Player getting hot. Most likely on situations but I rather have my Star player like Kobe who is one of the most potent player ever when he is hot which impacts the offense much greater in games then Magic can. Magic's offense is like poor mans LeBron with slightly better IQ and post game with better clutch factor which is Great but Kobe impacts the game much more do to the style he plays which is Scoring and Basketball out of any sports YOU NEED TO SCORE A LOT.

LOL at the list. You can barley think of a list. I can go miles on how many thing Kobe is better then Magic on in terms of Basketball.

I think ur mad after you thought about everything but couldnt come up with a thing that has a solid argument.

Go google it up some more and come back. Till then

Kobe > Magic

[AlphaWolf24]

Anyone who tells you Magic impacts the game far greater then Kobe is a fool with lack of knowledge of the game. Magic was only potent on offense do to the style the Lakers played and having great finishers surrounding him. Kobe in the other hand had no one in the league who can stop him which created more match up problems do to them playing team defense. Magics rebounds and assist are overrated.

As a guard its hard to be a "Dominant" defender. Only player to do so is the Real MJ which why he is on the top. Also as a Guard if you are a Lock Down defender that is amazing asset to have on a team. Only Bigs can be Dominant Defender so do not take Kobes defense for granted. I can agree if you say he play lazy at times.

I can agree to certain extent that getting Team involved is more important then ur Star Player getting hot. Most likely on situations but I rather have my Star player like Kobe who is one of the most potent player ever when he is hot which impacts the offense much greater in games then Magic can. Magic's offense is like poor mans LeBron with slightly better IQ and post game with better clutch factor which is Great but Kobe impacts the game much more do to the style he plays which is Scoring and Basketball out of any sports YOU NEED TO SCORE A LOT.

LOL at the list. You can barley think of a list. I can go miles on how many thing Kobe is better then Magic on in terms of Basketball.

I think ur mad after you thought about everything but couldnt come up with a thing that has a solid argument.

Go google it up some more and come back. Till then

Kobe > Magic



This....

[L.Kizzle]

Magic Johnson for #2.

[RRR3]

Hey OmegaMutt24,
Why are you arguing for Kobe? Hypocrite :oldlol:

I'll give you the players that I have watched for nearly 30years...I never watched Basketball when Russell or Wilt or to familiar with any Pro Game before 1980.....these are the best players that I have watched and followed..

pretty much from 1980 till present...

1.Magic
2.Jordan
3.Kobe
4.Bird
5.Duncan

[Gotterdammerung]

Gotta love the insecurity in this thread. :oldlol:

Let's try another Dr. Jack style breakdown:

Originality:
Kobe was a shooting guard molded in the standard model first instituted by Jordan in 1984. Magic? A rarity at 6' 9" & 235 lbs. A legitimate triple threat every possession. Inside. Outside. On the run. His size allowed him to dribble face up constantly. On defense, he blotted out the opposing guard's court vision.

Scoring:
Kobe's the better shooter and far more athletic. Magic was no slouch in this department, though, but he had the teammates to feed first. He could post up and hit with hook shots all night long. The better free throw shooter. Incredible finisher as well. It's important to note that Magic's drive & dish abilities were limited by KAJ's presence in the paint.

Rebounding:
Kobe is a solid rebounder, but Magic's size and strength wins this.

Passing: Kobe's a skilled passer, but Magic has an unbelievable handle and always made excellent decisions with the ball. Probably the greatest fast-break trigger man ever.

Defense: Kobe played inspired, physical D on the ball, but only on occasion. Magic was just a strictly team defender.

Intangibles: Kobe is/was a clutch shooter, but Magic has him beat in this department because he also maximized his teammates' abilities.

Career accomplishments: others already listed this, but they're not as important to me. What's more important is leading the team. Magic led his team to 9 finals in 12 years. Faced far more powerful teams in the 80s (lost only to the 83 Sixers, the fo fo fo Moses, the 84 Celtics, the 89 Pistons, and the 91 Bulls - all superior to the 00 teams except for the 08 Celtics and the 05 Spurs) Kobe had Shaq, a more dominant center than KAJ, for the first 8 years of his career, which mitigates his first 4 finals trips somewhat. Kobe's had the longer career, but we can't blame Magic for getting HIV that cut it short.

Magic Johnson in a landslide. :cheers:

[crosso√er]

I'm not even going to bother making a long detailed post showcasing why this is a lot closer then the final results will demonstrate.

I'll just write a quick conclusion; "Kobe was a more prolific scorer & a far more accomplished defensive player. Magic is arguably the greatest focal-point in league history and his versatility is invaluable. The resume & their respective impact (during prime-years) is very close; I don't think Magic's play-making ability, versatility & superior rebounding ability offsets Kobe's advantage at scoring & defending his man. What puts Magic ahead of Kobe for the time being is simply having achieved more in less time; and being a more effective leader."

So, I vote for Magic.
However Kobe is on the cusp of having a greater legacy then Magic (unless we shouldn't consider longevity), and my prediction is he will surpass him (as well as Shaq, Bird & Duncan) before he sets sails.

[AlphaWolf24]

Hey OmegaMutt24,
Why are you arguing for Kobe? Hypocrite :oldlol:

:roll: You got merked on the Jerry West comment....now you searching through my posts for the past Hour....



yup UMAD...



and again you comprehend FAIL.....this is alltime rankings foo.....

I believe alltime Kobe will be Higher whether I agree o not.

[crosso√er]

Gotta love the insecurity in this thread. :oldlol:

Let's try another Dr. Jack style breakdown:

Originality:
Kobe was a shooting guard molded in the standard model first instituted by Jordan in 1984. Magic? A rarity at 6' 9" & 235 lbs. A legitimate triple threat every possession. Inside. Outside. On the run. His size allowed him to dribble face up constantly. On defense, he blotted out the opposing guard's court vision.

Scoring:
Kobe's the better shooter and far more athletic. Magic was no slouch in this department, though, but he had the teammates to feed first. He could post up and hit with hook shots all night long. The better free throw shooter. Incredible finisher as well. It's important to note that Magic's drive & dish abilities were limited by KAJ's presence in the paint.

Rebounding:
Kobe is a solid rebounder, but Magic's size and strength wins this.

Passing: Kobe's a skilled passer, but Magic has an unbelievable handle and always made excellent decisions with the ball. Probably the greatest fast-break trigger man ever.

Defense: Kobe played inspired, physical D on the ball, but only on occasion. Magic was just a strictly team defender.

Intangibles: Kobe is/was a clutch shooter, but Magic has him beat in this department because he also maximized his teammates' abilities.

Career accomplishments: others already listed this, but they're not as important to me. What's more important is leading the team. Magic led his team to 9 finals in 12 years. Faced far more powerful teams in the 80s (lost only to the 83 Sixers, the fo fo fo Moses, the 84 Celtics, the 89 Pistons, and the 91 Bulls - all superior to the 00 teams except for the 08 Celtics and the 05 Spurs) Kobe had Shaq, a more dominant center than KAJ, for the first 8 years of his career, which mitigates his first 4 finals trips somewhat. Kobe's had the longer career, but we can't blame Magic for getting HIV that cut it short.

Magic Johnson in a landslide. :cheers:

Possibly the dumbest thread I've read during the project discussions; and that includes trolls with obvious agenda's.

[AlphaWolf24]

Gotta love the insecurity in this thread. :oldlol:

Let's try another Dr. Jack style breakdown:

Originality:
Kobe was a shooting guard molded in the standard model first instituted by Jordan in 1984. Magic? A rarity at 6' 9" & 235 lbs. A legitimate triple threat every possession. Inside. Outside. On the run. His size allowed him to dribble face up constantly. On defense, he blotted out the opposing guard's court vision.

Scoring:
Kobe's the better shooter and far more athletic. Magic was no slouch in this department, though, but he had the teammates to feed first. He could post up and hit with hook shots all night long. The better free throw shooter. Incredible finisher as well. It's important to note that Magic's drive & dish abilities were limited by KAJ's presence in the paint.

Rebounding:
Kobe is a solid rebounder, but Magic's size and strength wins this.

Passing: Kobe's a skilled passer, but Magic has an unbelievable handle and always made excellent decisions with the ball. Probably the greatest fast-break trigger man ever.

Defense: Kobe played inspired, physical D on the ball, but only on occasion. Magic was just a strictly team defender.

Intangibles: Kobe is/was a clutch shooter, but Magic has him beat in this department because he also maximized his teammates' abilities.

Career accomplishments: others already listed this, but they're not as important to me. What's more important is leading the team. Magic led his team to 9 finals in 12 years. Faced far more powerful teams in the 80s (lost only to the 83 Sixers, the fo fo fo Moses, the 84 Celtics, the 89 Pistons, and the 91 Bulls - all superior to the 00 teams except for the 08 Celtics and the 05 Spurs) Kobe had Shaq, a more dominant center than KAJ, for the first 8 years of his career, which mitigates his first 4 finals trips somewhat. Kobe's had the longer career, but we can't blame Magic for getting HIV that cut it short.

Magic Johnson in a landslide. :cheers:


:lol

[BlackJoker23]

Gotta love the insecurity in this thread. :oldlol:

Let's try another Dr. Jack style breakdown:

Originality:
Kobe was a shooting guard molded in the standard model first instituted by Jordan in 1984. Magic? A rarity at 6' 9" & 235 lbs. A legitimate triple threat every possession. Inside. Outside. On the run. His size allowed him to dribble face up constantly. On defense, he blotted out the opposing guard's court vision.

Scoring:
Kobe's the better shooter and far more athletic. Magic was no slouch in this department, though, but he had the teammates to feed first. He could post up and hit with hook shots all night long. The better free throw shooter. Incredible finisher as well. It's important to note that Magic's drive & dish abilities were limited by KAJ's presence in the paint.

Rebounding:
Kobe is a solid rebounder, but Magic's size and strength wins this.

Passing: Kobe's a skilled passer, but Magic has an unbelievable handle and always made excellent decisions with the ball. Probably the greatest fast-break trigger man ever.

Defense: Kobe played inspired, physical D on the ball, but only on occasion. Magic was just a strictly team defender.

Intangibles: Kobe is/was a clutch shooter, but Magic has him beat in this department because he also maximized his teammates' abilities.

Career accomplishments: others already listed this, but they're not as important to me. What's more important is leading the team. Magic led his team to 9 finals in 12 years. Faced far more powerful teams in the 80s (lost only to the 83 Sixers, the fo fo fo Moses, the 84 Celtics, the 89 Pistons, and the 91 Bulls - all superior to the 00 teams except for the 08 Celtics and the 05 Spurs) Kobe had Shaq, a more dominant center than KAJ, for the first 8 years of his career, which mitigates his first 4 finals trips somewhat. Kobe's had the longer career, but we can't blame Magic for getting HIV that cut it short.

Magic Johnson in a landslide. :cheers:
what a phucking ******* this queer is. lol'd when i read dr jack breakdown:facepalm

[Gotterdammerung]

Possibly the dumbest thread I've read during the project discussions; and that includes trolls with obvious agenda's.
It already started in the previous thread.

I wonder why Trolls think their opinions matter, when they're not even part of the voting process? :confusedshrug:

And I agree with your previous post because I said in the previous debate between West & Kobe:

[Kobe] has the potential to pass West, Jordan, and even Abdul Jabbar with the totality of his career, though - as long he stays healthy.

Apparently that won't satisfy Troll Logic, which interprets my statement as a Hater, because I twinged somebody's insecure, tiny ego. :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It already started in the previous thread.

I wonder why Trolls think their opinions matter, when they're not even part of the voting process? :confusedshrug:

And I agree with your previous post because I said in the previous debate between West & Kobe:

[Kobe] has the potential to pass West, Jordan, and even Abdul Jabbar with the totality of his career, though - as long he stays healthy.

Apparently that won't satisfy Troll Logic, which interprets my statement as a Hater, because I twinged somebody's insecure, tiny ego. :facepalm

You don't have to be hating to be misinformed or simply wrong. One guy is on pace to retire with the most all defensive teams of all time and he "occasionally plays defense" :oldlol:

[TryToBeUnbias]

It's a wash to me so I give Magic the edge now. Kobe later (after this season or the next for real doubters) fair enough ?

[crosso√er]

It already started in the previous thread.

I wonder why Trolls think their opinions matter, when they're not even part of the voting process? :confusedshrug:

And I agree with your previous post because I said in the previous debate between West & Kobe:

[Kobe] has the potential to pass West, Jordan, and even Abdul Jabbar with the totality of his career, though - as long he stays healthy.

Apparently that won't satisfy Troll Logic, which interprets my statement as a Hater, because I twinged somebody's insecure, tiny ego. :facepalm

You really need to improve your writing; I can't distinguish your intended audience.

1) I am part of the voting process.
2) The post I quoted is the only post I've read from you (I think), ever on this forum.
3) Your post was absolute trash (completely overblown in favor of one player); I hope you were being sarcastic. If you weren't, I might as well put you on ignore since I can already project (based on your previous post) your lack of knowledge/objectivity relating to basketball (or Kobe).

[Gotterdammerung]

http://www.hyperboreans.com/Pix/ILOLD.jpg
Another Kobe Troll enters the Hall of Ignore List! :oldlol:

[catch24]

You really need to improve your writing; I can't distinguish your intended audience.

1) I am part of the voting process.
2) The post I quoted is the only post I've read from you (I think), ever on this forum.
3) Your post was absolute trash (completely overblown in favor of one player); I hope you were being sarcastic. If you weren't, I might as well put you on ignore since I can already project (based on your previous post) your lack of knowledge/objectivity relating to basketball (or Kobe).

/shredded

The fact you're a voter and he continues to call you a troll is hysterical :oldlol:

[Gotterdammerung]

...snipped....

Been here a lot longer than you have. Just don't post as often.

1. I am part of the voting process. But... I've made far more effort in voting in this project than you have. :confusedshrug:
2. Since you're ready to judge me after 1 post, it says far more about you than my single post. :oldlol:
3. Your response was absolutely trash. :facepalm

[L.Kizzle]

Let's get to the forwards already. We know who 1, 2 and 3 were gonna be and the order, It was #4 through #25 we were really voting on.

[Gotterdammerung]

/shredded

The fact you're a voter and he continues to call you a troll is hysterical :oldlol:
Actually... I didn't call him a troll.

In fact, I did say that I agreed with him.

Perhaps English isn't your first language. :confusedshrug:

[Gotterdammerung]

Let's get to the forwards already. We know who 1, 2 and 3 were gonna be and the order, It was #4 through #25 we were really voting on.


Has anyone heard from GOAT? Maybe we shouldn't continue this project until he comes back.

The last two threads almost drowned, no thanks to the Kobe Trolls who came out of the woodwork. :facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

It already started in the previous thread.

I wonder why Trolls think their opinions matter, when they're not even part of the voting process? :confusedshrug:

And I agree with your previous post because I said in the previous debate between West & Kobe:

[Kobe] has the potential to pass West, Jordan, and even Abdul Jabbar with the totality of his career, though - as long he stays healthy.

Apparently that won't satisfy Troll Logic, which interprets my statement as a Hater, because I twinged somebody's insecure, tiny ego. :facepalm

actually...you calling people "Troll's" is silly...especially when the so called Kobe "troll's" opinion reflects the majority of the basketball fanbase...


while your opinion is just plain silly....that hardly anyone would recognize.

[catch24]

Actually... I didn't call him a troll.

In fact, I did say that I agreed with him.

Perhaps English isn't your first language. :confusedshrug:


I wonder why Trolls think their opinions matter, when they're not even part of the voting process? :confusedshrug:

And I agree with your previous post because I said in the previous debate between West & Kobe:

Are you dyslexic?

[Gotterdammerung]

Are you dyslexic?

Nope. Re-read that statement. There are OTHER posters in the thread prior to Crossover that fit the category of Kobe Trolls. Apparently that's too difficult for some people. :facepalm

They're in my ignore list so I can't read their comments, but it's a safe guess to say that they're cheerleading for Kobe and against anyone who dares to breathe a word of dissident.

Ca-peesh?

Or is your handle a clear indication that you belong in my ignore list along with all those other trolls? :confusedshrug:

[Doctor Rivers]

Nope. Re-read that statement. There are OTHER posters in the thread prior to Crossover that fit the category of Kobe Trolls. Apparently that's too difficult for some people. :facepalm

They're in my ignore list so I can't read their comments, but it's a safe guess to say that they're cheerleading for Kobe and against anyone who dares to breathe a word of dissident.

Ca-peesh?

Or is your handle a clear indication that you belong in my ignore list along with all those other trolls? :confusedshrug:

you're an idiot

[crosso√er]

Been here a lot longer than you have. Just don't post as often.

1. I am part of the voting process. But... I've made far more effort in voting in this project than you have. :confusedshrug:
2. Since you're ready to judge me after 1 post, it says far more about you than my single post. :oldlol:
3. Your response was absolutely trash. :facepalm

I'll use point form since obviously you lack basic comprehension skills.

1) Never said you weren't part of the voting project, I've simply stated I am in it as well (I was just defending the notion that [according to you] I am not part of the project).
2) I didn't judge you, I judged your post. In your original reply, I judged you. Well because, you confirmed to me that you're an idiot.
3) Use of emoticons only deteriorates your rebuttals further.
4) Let's do each other a favor and ignore each other; you lack comprehension skills and I lack patience for idiots like you.
5) Constantly calling other posters trolls, complaining about trolls and insulting other trolls; in fact, makes you a troll. Hopefully you have an epiphany over this last point.
6) Have a pleasant night, troll.

[catch24]

Nope. Re-read that statement. There are OTHER posters in the thread prior to Crossover that fit the category of Kobe Trolls. Apparently that's too difficult for some people. :facepalm

They're in my ignore list so I can't read their comments, but it's a safe guess to say that they're cheerleading for Kobe and against anyone who dares to breathe a word of dissident.

Ca-peesh?

Or is your handle a clear indication that you belong in my ignore list along with all those other trolls? :confusedshrug:

I'm not a mind-reader. Like Crossover said, you really need to improve your writing skills. Judging by his response, he clearly thought you called him a troll and/or not apart of the voting process.

Do what you must; I don't give a shit, lol.

[AlphaWolf24]

Been here a lot longer than you have. Just don't post as often.

1. I am part of the voting process. But... I've made far more effort in voting in this project than you have. :confusedshrug:
2. Since you're ready to judge me after 1 post, it says far more about you than my single post. :oldlol:
3. Your response was absolutely trash. :facepalm


:roll: WTF?....your'e join date proves what?....

You got Owned and called out.......

You on the "voting process" proves exactly what I've been saying all along....elitists fans are the worst fans in sports and ruin Basketball one post at a time....

you probably never even watched Magic Johnson:roll:

[crosso√er]

Nope. Re-read that statement. There are OTHER posters in the thread prior to Crossover that fit the category of Kobe Trolls. Apparently that's too difficult for some people. :facepalm

They're in my ignore list so I can't read their comments, but it's a safe guess to say that they're cheerleading for Kobe and against anyone who dares to breathe a word of dissident.

Ca-peesh?

Or is your handle a clear indication that you belong in my ignore list along with all those other trolls? :confusedshrug:

Actually, it's your fault.
I had trouble just like catch24 did at understanding who exactly you were directing your comments towards. Perhaps being a little more concise at typing, will eliminate this confusion in the future.

If you were not in fact insulting me in the 1st place, then you can ignore my backlashes and accept my apology.

We should start the forwards list next; since we all know how this list will end up (as it should).

[AlphaWolf24]

I'll use point form since obviously you lack basic comprehension skills.

1) Never said you weren't part of the voting project, I've simply stated I am in it as well (I was just defending the notion that [according to you] I am not part of the project).
2) I didn't judge you, I judged your post. In your original reply, I judged you. Well because, you confirmed to me that you're an idiot.
3) Use of emoticons only deteriorates your rebuttals further.
4) Let's do each other a favor and ignore each other; you lack comprehension skills and I lack patience for idiots like you.
5) Constantly calling other posters trolls, complaining about trolls and insulting other trolls; in fact, makes you a troll. Hopefully you have an epiphany over this last point.
6) Have a pleasant night, troll.



http://www.thebuzzmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/gears-of-war-2-screenshot-double-chainsaw-kill.jpg

Merked him bad.....



next

[Jacks3]

It's kinda funny that Magic will win this by a pretty easy margin, but when Kobe is 15+ removed from the leagie via retirement, it will end up being a 50/50 split at worst for Kobe....and 75/25 at best in favor of Bryant.
This.

[Jacks3]

Magic Johnson in a landslide. :cheers:
****kking idiot.

[BEAST Griffin]

Magic Johnson

EASILY

[colts19]

Kobe is a fine player, but people calling him the greatest laker ever have got to be kidding.

Wilt
Kareem
Magic

are all better than Kobe. Kobe is not now in the discussion as GOAT, the three players listed above all have a case for GOAT.

Like I said Kobe is a fine player, but if you saw Wilt, Kareem and Magic play, I just don't know how you could see Kobe as in their class.

[BEAST Griffin]

It's kinda funny that Magic will win this by a pretty easy margin, but when Kobe is 15+ removed from the leagie via retirement, it will end up being a 50/50 split at worst for Kobe....and 75/25 at best in favor of Bryant.

Maybe because a lot of people will forget or never learn about his subpar finals performances and his overrated defense.

They'll just see the buckets he made in highlights, not the massive amount of chucking and bricking and air balling it over multiple defenders while teammates are open.

[Doranku]

This is a similar debate to Kobe vs. West. It's a lot closer than most people like to admit, but having to choose, the clear answer is Magic.

No point in even making the thread for #1 imo, the answer for that one is obvious.

[Jacks3]

Kobe is a fine player, but people calling him the greatest laker ever have got to be kidding.

Wilt
Kareem
Magic

are all better than Kobe. Kobe is not now in the discussion as GOAT, the three players listed above all have a case for GOAT.

Like I said Kobe is a fine player, but if you saw Wilt, Kareem and Magic play, I just don't know how you could see Kobe as in their class.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Wilt the greater Laker?:roll: :roll: :roll:

Not in their class?:roll: :roll:

[Gotterdammerung]

Actually, it's your fault.
I had trouble just like catch24 did at understanding who exactly you were directing your comments towards. Perhaps being a little more concise at typing, will eliminate this confusion in the future.

If you were not in fact insulting me in the 1st place, then you can ignore my backlashes and accept my apology.

We should start the forwards list next; since we all know how this list will end up (as it should).

No problem. Half of this thread (including the previous project) are not visible due to posters being on the ignore list. Only those posters that make my Ignore list are trolls that don't really contribute to the discussion.

That may have led to the imprecise and vague nature of my post. So apologies on the misunderstanding, and I admit that my original post was exceedingly one-sided, "troll-bait" to incite a certain fanbase.

I'm still not sure about starting the forwards list because GOAT isn't back yet.

[AlphaWolf24]

No problem. Half of this thread (including the previous project) are not visible due to posters being on the ignore list. Only those posters that make my Ignore list are trolls that don't really contribute to the discussion.

That may have led to the imprecise and vague nature of my post. So apologies on the misunderstanding, and I admit that my original post was exceedingly one-sided, "troll-bait" to incite a certain fanbase.

I'm still not sure about starting the forwards list because GOAT isn't back yet.


:lol did n!qqa backpedling....


10 Bias fans on da webz acting like it's serious business....

[MasterDurant24]

Again Haters fail to mention 2010 Boston since they want to make their argument sound much better. :lol

What a loser.:facepalm
Because Boston was a very good team. But he didnt face them in every Finals he's been like Magic did the Sixers, Pistons, and Celtics.

You call me a hater? The 24 in my name is for Kobe :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Magic, very easily.


:lol did n!qqa backpedling....


10 Bias fans on da webz acting like it's serious business....

Logoff and save yourself the temper tantrum and broken keyboard..for like..the umpteenth time..You are outclassed any way you turn..next please.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Because Boston was a very good team. But he didnt face them in every Finals he's been like Magic did the Sixers, Pistons, and Celtics.

You call me a hater? The 24 in my name is for Kobe :facepalm

That's because the best teams were all in the West for most of Kobe's title runs.


The early 2000s Kings, Spurs and Blazers are just as good if not better than any team Magic faced in the Finals.

[TrueAristotle]

That's because the best teams were all in the West for most of Kobe's title runs.


The early 2000s Kings, Spurs and Blazers are just as good if not better than any team Magic faced in the Finals.
:roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:roll:

Off Rtg: 105.0 (13th of 22) ▪ Def Rtg: 101.0 (1st of 22)

Off Rtg: 109.6 (5th of 23) ▪ Def Rtg: 103.9 (7th of 23)

Off Rtg: 108.3 (5th of 23) ▪ Def Rtg: 100.9 (5th of 23)

Off Rtg: 110.9 (6th of 23) ▪ Def Rtg: 104.4 (3rd of 23)

Off Rtg: 112.8 (2nd of 23) ▪ Def Rtg: 106.3 (5th of 23)

Off Rtg: 113.5 (3rd of 23) ▪ Def Rtg: 106.8 (9th of 23)

Off Rtg: 110.5 (6th of 23) ▪ Def Rtg: 105.3 (2nd of 23)

Off Rtg: 110.8 (7th of 25) ▪ Def Rtg: 104.7 (3rd of 25)

Off Rtg: 114.6 (1st of 27) ▪ Def Rtg: 105.2 (7th of 27)


vs

02 Kings

Off Rtg: 109.0 (3rd of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 101.1 (6th of 29)

00 Blazers

Off Rtg: 107.9 (3rd of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 100.8 (5th of 29)

01 Spurs

Off Rtg: 106.6 (6th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 98.0 (1st of 29)

:confusedshrug:

[Clippersfan86]

Blaze after Jordan stomps Magic in the final can we do top big men?

Magic wins this easily IMO. Sure it's closer than some would think but Magic was SUCH an amazing player. I'm not sure anyone outside of Jordan, Bird and Shaq have had so much impact on a game. The man was incredible. I honestly believe if Magic didn't have to retire early and played till around 40... he would be considered the GOAT, not Jordan.

[Boston C's]

this is close but ill give the edge to magic... i feel that his imprint on the game goes a little farther then kobes and he was a better all around player... its pretty clear that magic is taking this with the votes by the ppl who have a say in this... although its entertaining to see all the kobe fanatics rage about how their boy should make it past magic by a landslide :lol

[Jacks3]

Kobe plays far tougher defenses than what Magic saw:

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/29/who-played-the-hardest-defenses-adjusting-playoff-stats-by-competition-part-i/


Kobe Bryant had the largest increase in playoff defensive quality by raw change, facing defenses 3.2 points stingier than what he saw in the regular season. Only Shaquille O’Neal faced teams that allowed fewer points per 100 (101.9) in the playoffs.

Coincidentally, another Laker had it the easiest. Magic Johnson might not have noticed when the playoffs began, because his typical postseason opponent during his 10-year run was right around league average. In 27 playoff series against the West, Magic faced 16 below average defenses. 15 of his 22 conference opponents (68%) in the 1980s were below average in DRtg.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

In 27 playoff series against the West, Magic faced 16 below average defenses. 15 of his 22 conference opponents (68%) in the 1980s were below average in DRtg.

How many below average teams in DRTG did Bryant play?

[AlphaWolf24]

Magic, very easily.



Logoff and save yourself the temper tantrum and broken keyboard..for like..the umpteenth time..You are outclassed any way you turn..next please.


Yeah "outclassed"...by who?....Haters complaining about all defensive teams and Kobe copying Jordan?....:lol

come on son!...pretty much all the Laker Greats said Kobe is the best Laker of alltime..


I'm just agreeing....apply yourself.









next

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah "outclassed"...by who?....Haters complaining about all defensive teams and Kobe copying Jordan?....:lol

come on son!...pretty much all the Laker Greats said Kobe is the best Laker of alltime..

apply yourself

One of the Laker greats also said he could average 50ppg in the modern era. Of course, in your world, you pick and choose what you take as face value.

Apply myself? Like you do when discussing Kobe every other post? We are talking their careers dumbass. Take the c*ck flavored lollipop's out of your mouth..or should I say stop deep throating those pops. All this laughing..yet you cannot explain the dominance then and not since..why is that? Sup man? Your balls stuck on "not descending?" I love watching people laugh like you then get dropped like a sack of potatoes. I watched Big foot Silva talk shit then get dropped..kinda reminds me of you..all talk..then poof.."boom goes the dynamite" slapped wolf is out for the count.

Next, please.

[MasterDurant24]

That's because the best teams were all in the West for most of Kobe's title runs.


The early 2000s Kings, Spurs and Blazers are just as good if not better than any team Magic faced in the Finals.
Good point, but none of those teams are as good as those teams Magic faced in the Finals. The 83 Sixers, the 86 Celtics, and the Bad Boy Pistons are widely considered to be some of the greatest teams of all time. Plus in the West back then, Magic also went through the Rockets(if it weren't for drugs, they would of been contenders for years), who was a very good team.

[ZaaaaaH]

Because Boston was a very good team. But he didnt face them in every Finals he's been like Magic did the Sixers, Pistons, and Celtics.

You call me a hater? The 24 in my name is for Kobe :facepalm

Yes they didnt face Boston every year because they came together at 2008.

And you also fail to mention Western Conference was much tougher then it ever was. Bottom line I dont need to go in detail with you since you dont even understand the fundamental aspect and try to leave out the other side of the story.

Please change ur number

[AlphaWolf24]

One of the Laker greats also said he could average 50ppg in the modern era. Of course, in your world, you pick and choose what you take as face value.

Apply myself? Like you do when discussing Kobe every other post? We are talking their careers dumbass. Take the c*ck flavored lollipop's out of your mouth..or should I say stop deep throating those pops. All this laughing..yet you cannot explain the dominance then and not since..why is that? Sup man? Your balls stuck on "not descending?" I love watching people laugh like you then get dropped like a sack of potatoes. I watched Big foot Silva talk shit then get dropped..kinda reminds me of you..all talk..then poof.."boom goes the dynamite" slapped wolf is out for the count.

Next, please.


:applause:



I really don't know what to say??......


You managed to incorporate Antonio Silva, MMA , Lollipops , p3niz's,Kobe ,Basketball , deep throating and puberty all in one post...

great job....



(walks away slowly....prays there are no sharp objects near Kuniva....hopes he has refill's on the meds)

[MasterDurant24]

Yes they didnt face Boston every year because they came together at 2008.

And you also fail to mention Western Conference was much tougher then it ever was. Bottom line I dont need to go in detail with you since you dont even understand the fundamental aspect and try to leave out the other side of the story.

Please change ur number
:roll:

I was replying to AlphaWolf, who merely said that Magic only played the Celtics in 3 Finals. And just I said all the other times in the Finals they also played great teams. I don't see what I'm leaving out? Nor do I see the West in the early 2000's being much tougher than the early 90's with the Spurs, Lakers, Trail Blazers, Suns, and Rockets all being very good teams. Along with the Run-TMC Warriors.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

great job....



(walks away slowly....prays there are no sharp objects near Kuniva....hopes he has refill's on the meds)

You waited 20 minutes to reply and this is all I got? Notice how when Alphy pop cannot make a point..he changes the subject..? Geeesh..take a few more weeks off bud...

[AlphaWolf24]

You waited 20 minutes to reply and this is all I got? Notice how when Alphy pop cannot make a point..he changes the subject..? Geeesh..take a few more weeks off bud...


dang....I just read your comment a couple minutes ago....


you trippin??

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

dang....I just read your comment a couple minutes ago....


you trippin??

2EZ...


















next, please

[AlphaWolf24]

You waited 20 minutes to reply and this is all I got? Notice how when Alphy pop cannot make a point..he changes the subject..? Geeesh..take a few more weeks off bud...


what subject you talkin about?...lollipops or puberty?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

what subject you talkin about?...lollipops or puberty?

Explain why Kobe is better than Magic... without quotes from players and ex-legends. Break down their individual games. I'll wait pop rocks.

[The-Legend-24]

:oldlol: This shit ain't even close. I'll go with the GREATEST LAKER OF ALL TIME , AKA KOBE "DA GAWD" BRYANT. :bowdown:

[Round Mound]

Magic

- Smarter
- Higher B-Ball IQ
- Better Handles both left and right hands
- Better Rim Attacker (don`t believe me? Watch the Old Games Coast to Coasts)
- Better Post Player (Shoot Righ or Left Baby Hook)
- Stronger
- Way Better Creator and Passer

Kobe Better Shooter an 1 on 1 Player thats it

[SuperPippen]

:oldlol: This shit ain't even close. I'll go with the GREATEST LAKER OF ALL TIME , AKA KOBE "DA GAWD" BRYANT. :bowdown:

Silly Rene, posts like this are why you don't have a vote.

[Jacks3]

Kobe

-Much better scorer
-Much better on-ball defender
-Better take-over player
-Better longevity
-Played in a significantly better defensive era, especially in the PS
-Higher WAR/Peak PER
-Just as much rings despite lesser supporting casts
-Better shooter
-More skilled (better foot-work, shot-creator,mid-range game etc)

Next.

[AlphaWolf24]

Explain why Kobe is better than Magic... without quotes from players and ex-legends. Break down their individual games. I'll wait pop rocks.


You really want me to break down thier individual games with a wall of text that No one will read anyways???...I can do that....but still most folks won't understand...


so...


Kobe is better because....






he's a better offensive player..














and




















Defensive player...


























phew....that was EZ.




























next

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe is better because....

You are about as credible as that bomb I just splayed out in the toilet after a night out for some thai food. Kobe a better offensive player?...:lol

[Legends66NBA7]

You are about as credible as that bomb I just splayed out in the toilet after a night out for some thai food. Kobe a better offensive player?...:lol

Apparently, offense is all about scoring the ball....

[Legends66NBA7]

Let's see, of the top 25 greatest passing offensive/efficient teams of all-time, Magic Johnson has been on 9 of them. He has been the main assist leader for 7 of them. 5 of these teams are in the Top 10 alone. 2 of them are in Top 3 and which includes the greatest passing offensive/efficient teams of all-time. Here they are:

1984-85 Lakers 118.2 pts 31.4ast 54.5%fg (Magic 12.6ast, Cooper 5.2ast) #1 all-time
1982-83 Lakers 115.0 pts 30.7ast 52.8%fg (Magic 10.5ast, Nixon 7.2ast) #3 all-time
1983-84 Lakers 115.6 pts 29.9ast 53.2%fg (Magic 13.1ast, Cooper 5.9ast) # 6 all-time
1985-86 Lakers 117.3 pts 29.7ast 52.2%fg (Magic 12.6ast, Cooper 5.7ast) # 8 all-time
1986-87 Lakers 117.8 pts 29.6ast 51.6%fg (Magic 12.2ast, Cooper 4.5ast) # 9 all-time
1979-80 Lakers 115.1 pts 29.4ast 52.9%fg (Nixon 7.8ast, Magic 7.3ast) # 12 all-time
1980-81 Lakers 111.2 pts 28.8ast 51.2%fg (Nixon 8.8ast, Magic 8.6ast - 37 games) # 17 all-time
1981-82 Lakers 114.6 pts 28.7ast 51.7%fg (Magic 9.5ast, Nixon 8.0ast) # 20 all-time
1987-88 Lakers 112.8 pts 28.6ast 50.5%fg (Magic 11.9ast, Cooper 4.7ast, Scott 4.1ast) #23 all-time

The 84-85 and 82-83 teams are 2 of 5 teams that have had averaged 30+ assists per game for a season. Magic is responsible for 2 of them, both of which went to the Finals (1-1). Not to mention every single one of those teams hit over 50%.

Magic was a much better offensive player in getting his teams involved than Kobe ever did. How many of Kobe's teams have even come close to that type of ball movement and efficient scoring ? Much better in getting the best out of his teammates. Better creator for his teammates and a high I.Q. on how to get the best out of his teammates on the floor.

[tontoz]

When it comes to the mental side of the game..

Court vision
making the right play at the right time
making other players better
vocal leadership on and off the floor
clutch play
overall BBIQ

I never saw anyone better than Magic. He put up big numbers but watching him play i never got the impression that he really cared about them. it always seemed like the only thing that mattered to him was winning.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Let's see, of the top 25 greatest passing offensive/efficient teams of all-time, Magic Johnson has been on 9 of them. He has been the main assist leader for 7 of them. 5 of these teams are in the Top 10 alone. 2 of them are in Top 3 and which includes the greatest passing offensive/efficient teams of all-time. Here they are:

1984-85 Lakers 118.2 pts 31.4ast 54.5%fg (Magic 12.6ast, Cooper 5.2ast) #1 all-time
1982-83 Lakers 115.0 pts 30.7ast 52.8%fg (Magic 10.5ast, Nixon 7.2ast) #3 all-time
1983-84 Lakers 115.6 pts 29.9ast 53.2%fg (Magic 13.1ast, Cooper 5.9ast) # 6 all-time
1985-86 Lakers 117.3 pts 29.7ast 52.2%fg (Magic 12.6ast, Cooper 5.7ast) # 8 all-time
1986-87 Lakers 117.8 pts 29.6ast 51.6%fg (Magic 12.2ast, Cooper 4.5ast) # 9 all-time
1979-80 Lakers 115.1 pts 29.4ast 52.9%fg (Nixon 7.8ast, Magic 7.3ast) # 12 all-time
1980-81 Lakers 111.2 pts 28.8ast 51.2%fg (Nixon 8.8ast, Magic 8.6ast - 37 games) # 17 all-time
1981-82 Lakers 114.6 pts 28.7ast 51.7%fg (Magic 9.5ast, Nixon 8.0ast) # 20 all-time
1987-88 Lakers 112.8 pts 28.6ast 50.5%fg (Magic 11.9ast, Cooper 4.7ast, Scott 4.1ast) #23 all-time

The 84-85 and 82-83 teams are 2 of 5 teams that have had averaged 30+ assists per game for a season. Magic is responsible for 2 of them, both of which went to the Finals (1-1). Not to mention every single one of those teams hit over 50%.

Magic was a much better offensive player in getting his teams involved than Kobe ever did. How many of Kobe's teams have even come close to that type of ball movement and efficient scoring ? Much better in getting the best out of his teammates. Better creator for his teammates and a high I.Q. on how to get the best out of his teammates on the floor.

Looking at assists without compensating for the faster pace of Magic's era is silly.

[RRR3]

Looking at assists without compensating for the faster pace of Magic's era is silly.
LOL gotta love Kobe stans. If all else fails, they always pull out the classic "b-b-b-but-but-but...Kobe plays in a tougher era!!!!!!"

[Legends66NBA7]

When it comes to the mental side of the game..

Court vision
making the right play at the right time
making other players better
vocal leadership on and off the floor
clutch play
overall BBIQ

I never saw anyone better than Magic. He put up big numbers but watching him play i never got the impression that he really cared about them. it always seemed like the only thing that mattered to him was winning.

+1.

All of the above and the statement about numbers, Kobe has all been questioned or either been overrated in. Not to say he hasn't wanted to win, but he more than enough times has done so for the sake of himself and not in his teams best interest.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

LOL gotta love Kobe stans. If all else fails, they always pull out the classic "b-b-b-but-but-but...Kobe plays in a tougher era!!!!!!"

A slower pace doesn't make the era tougher. It just means per game raw offensive statistics are deflated. :confusedshrug:

[G-Funk]

A slower pace doesn't make the era tougher. It just means per game raw offensive statistics are deflated. :confusedshrug:
U gotta be a dumba$$ not to take this into consideration

[G-Funk]

It all depends what u want. Kobe brings a little of everthing, but if u want a better teammate and to an extend better team offense go with magic

[Jacks3]

Yeah, Nash is a better offensive player than either Magic or Kobe, just look at those offenses he's lead. Superior to both. lolz.

As if Kobe wouldn't lead dominant ( well he already has) offenses with Kareem/Worthy/Cooper/Scott/McAdoo/Thompson/Perkins/Wilkes/etc etc. :lol

Has anyone in history played with as much talent as Magic?

And I love the moronic Kobe wants to for himself line by that idiot Legend.

:roll:

[Legends66NBA7]

Looking at assists without compensating for the faster pace of Magic's era is silly.

Would you say that the 50's, 60's, and 70's had faster pace than the 80's ?

[AlphaWolf24]

Apparently, offense is all about scoring the ball....


:facepalm

[eliteballer]

Magic would have averaged even MORE assists if he didnt play on the Lakers.

Why? The Lakers had plenty of capable ballhandlers and passers that Magic didnt have the ball as much as he would have on a team with less talent.

Look at Stocktons numbers, he was usually the only capable passer/ballhandler on most of his teams.

Eh, depends on the situation.

Magic has the 6-9 PG versatility, being an engine that makes the entire team better etc. The same reasons you could justify picking him over anyone in history.

Kobe has the D, ability to impose his will on the other team with his scoring binges, getting them into foul trouble, no technical weaknesses in his game etc.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Would you say that the 50's, 60's, and 70's had faster pace than the 80's ?

I don't know. You have to look it up. It isn't an opinion based question.

[AlphaWolf24]

Magic would have averaged even MORE assists if he didnt play on the Lakers.

Why? The Lakers had plenty of capable ballhandlers and passers that Magic didnt have the ball as much as he would have on a team with less talent.

Look at Stocktons numbers, he was usually the only capable passer/ballhandler on most of his teams.

Eh, depends on the situation.

Magic has the 6-9 PG versatility, being an engine that makes the entire team better etc. The same reasons you could justify picking him over anyone in history.

Kobe has the D, ability to impose his will on the other team with his scoring binges, getting them into foul trouble, no technical weaknesses in his game etc.


THIS.....but I guarantee the 10 voters here will pick Magic....



then when he goes up against Jordan , all those things will thrown out the window....

book it.

[Nevaeh]

Magic would have averaged even MORE assists if he didnt play on the Lakers.

Why? The Lakers had plenty of capable ballhandlers and passers that Magic didnt have the ball as much as he would have on a team with less talent.

Look at Stocktons numbers, he was usually the only capable passer/ballhandler on most of his teams.

Eh, depends on the situation.

Magic has the 6-9 PG versatility, being an engine that makes the entire team better etc. The same reasons you could justify picking him over anyone in history.

Kobe has the D, ability to impose his will on the other team with his scoring binges, getting them into foul trouble, no technical weaknesses in his game etc.

Shot selection is still a weakness though. There's no excuse for him to be a 45% career shooter with how much his game is based on the offensive side of the ball.

With Magic, you were NEVER crossing your fingers, hoping and praying he'd make the right decisions with the ball like you would be with Kobe.

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't know. You have to look it up. It isn't an opinion based question.

Oh ok. Can you show me the pace average of the 50's, 60's, and 70's ? I can't seem to find them.

Also, I should have asked better, was the 50's, 60, and 70's pace faster than the 80's pace ?

[AlphaWolf24]

Shot selection is still a weakness though. There's no excuse for him to be a 45% career shooter with how much his game is based on the offensive side of the ball.

With Magic, you were NEVER crossing your fingers, hoping and praying he'd make the right decisions with the ball like you would be with Kobe.


Uh...did you even watch Magic early in his career??...when he Choked against Boston people were calling him Tragic Magic....

obviously you never watched the Showtime Lakers.....early in his career Magic was not the First option to close out Games...Kareem/Macadoo were relied on more .....magic was the primary Ball handler and would feed the post and facilitate.....

Kobe has been the #1 Option in Crunchtime his whole career.

[Nevaeh]

Uh...did you even watch Magic early in his career??...when he Choked against Boston people were calling him Tragic Magic....

obviously you never watched the Showtime Lakers.....early in his career Magic was not the First option to close out Games...Kareem/Macadoo were relied on more .....magic was the primary Ball handler and would feed the post and facilitate.....

Kobe has been the #1 Option in Crunchtime his whole career.

Dude, you're better when you're just making pretty pictures, cause you obviously do NOT watch NBA Basketball. :oldlol:

[AlphaWolf24]

Dude, you're better when you're just making pretty pictures, cause you obviously do NOT watch NBA Basketball. :oldlol:


huh?...the only years when you could say he wasn't was 97 - 98...

and even then he was jackin up airball's....

from 99'/00' he has been the #1 option to close games....


apply yourself
















next

[Doctor Rivers]

Uh...did you even watch Magic early in his career??...when he Choked against Boston people were calling him Tragic Magic....

obviously you never watched the Showtime Lakers.....early in his career Magic was not the First option to close out Games...Kareem/Macadoo were relied on more .....magic was the primary Ball handler and would feed the post and facilitate.....

Kobe has been the #1 Option in Crunchtime his whole career.
Yeah, Magic caught a lot of flak for what happened in the 84 Finals. DJ really locked him down in that series.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119455/index.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

You're wrong on the Kobe thing though.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Oh ok. Can you show me the pace average of the 50's, 60's, and 70's ? I can't seem to find them.

Also, I should have asked better, was the 50's, 60, and 70's pace faster than the 80's pace ?

You can get a rough feel for the differences in pace by looking at the avg team points per game in each year


2008-2011 about 100
2005-2008 about 97
2001-2004 about 95

vs


1980-1988 about 109
1989-1991 about 107

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1989.html

[Legends66NBA7]

Yeah, Magic caught a lot of flak for what happened in the 84 Finals. DJ really locked him down in that series.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119455/index.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

You're wrong on the Kobe thing though.

Magic did come back with a vengeance and his record vs Bird in the Finals is 2-1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQzTCxWpdMM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-fEDLzNUMc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q92n5FcQigA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAMuXrTegSY

As great players always do.

[eliteballer]

Yeah, Magic caught a lot of flak for what happened in the 84 Finals. DJ really locked him down in that series.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119455/index.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

You're wrong on the Kobe thing though.

Yeah, really locked him down to the tune of 18 points, 8 boards, 14 assists, 2 steals on 56% shooting per game for the series:rolleyes:

[Pointguard]

Let's see, of the top 25 greatest passing offensive/efficient teams of all-time, Magic Johnson has been on 9 of them. He has been the main assist leader for 7 of them. 5 of these teams are in the Top 10 alone. 2 of them are in Top 3 and which includes the greatest passing offensive/efficient teams of all-time. Here they are:

1984-85 Lakers 118.2 pts 31.4ast 54.5%fg (Magic 12.6ast, Cooper 5.2ast) #1 all-time
1982-83 Lakers 115.0 pts 30.7ast 52.8%fg (Magic 10.5ast, Nixon 7.2ast) #3 all-time
1983-84 Lakers 115.6 pts 29.9ast 53.2%fg (Magic 13.1ast, Cooper 5.9ast) # 6 all-time
1985-86 Lakers 117.3 pts 29.7ast 52.2%fg (Magic 12.6ast, Cooper 5.7ast) # 8 all-time
1986-87 Lakers 117.8 pts 29.6ast 51.6%fg (Magic 12.2ast, Cooper 4.5ast) # 9 all-time
1979-80 Lakers 115.1 pts 29.4ast 52.9%fg (Nixon 7.8ast, Magic 7.3ast) # 12 all-time
1980-81 Lakers 111.2 pts 28.8ast 51.2%fg (Nixon 8.8ast, Magic 8.6ast - 37 games) # 17 all-time
1981-82 Lakers 114.6 pts 28.7ast 51.7%fg (Magic 9.5ast, Nixon 8.0ast) # 20 all-time
1987-88 Lakers 112.8 pts 28.6ast 50.5%fg (Magic 11.9ast, Cooper 4.7ast, Scott 4.1ast) #23 all-time

The 84-85 and 82-83 teams are 2 of 5 teams that have had averaged 30+ assists per game for a season. Magic is responsible for 2 of them, both of which went to the Finals (1-1). Not to mention every single one of those teams hit over 50%.

Magic was a much better offensive player in getting his teams involved than Kobe ever did. How many of Kobe's teams have even come close to that type of ball movement and efficient scoring ? Much better in getting the best out of his teammates. Better creator for his teammates and a high I.Q. on how to get the best out of his teammates on the floor.

Good stuff. :cheers:

[Legends66NBA7]

Yeah, really locked him down to the tune of 18 points, 8 boards, 14 assists, 2 steals on 56% shooting per game for the series:rolleyes:

18.0ppg 7.7reb 13.6ast 2.0stl 0.9blk 56%fg 74.4%ft to be exact. And if the Lakers win Game 7, Magic wins Finals MVP.

[Jacks3]

Yeah, Nash is a better offensive player than either Magic or Kobe, just look at those offenses he's lead. Superior to both. lolz.

As if Kobe wouldn't lead dominant ( well he already has) offenses with Kareem/Worthy/Cooper/Scott/McAdoo/Thompson/Perkins/Wilkes/etc etc. :lol

Has anyone in history played with as much talent as Magic?

And I love the moronic Kobe wants to for himself line by that idiot Legend.

:roll:
Kobe Bryant had the largest increase in playoff defensive quality by raw change, facing defenses 3.2 points stingier than what he saw in the regular season. Only Shaquille O

[Pointguard]

You can get a rough feel for the differences in pace by looking at the avg team points per game in each year


2008-2011 about 100
2005-2008 about 97
2001-2004 about 95

vs


1980-1988 about 109
1989-1991 about 107

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1989.html

Magic ran selectively. He was responsible for pace and high quality shots. He ran the most efficient high octane offense the leage ever seen. High quantity and great quality. They employed a slow down game as well for Kareem. The offensive rating of his teams, the high number of assist, the great FG% is a trademark of his presence. This was something he brought to the team. He could control and was responsible for the high quality of one of the best oiled machines in the history of the sport.

[Doctor Rivers]

Yeah, really locked him down to the tune of 18 points, 8 boards, 14 assists, 2 steals on 56% shooting per game for the series:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Eh...I suppose not, but he definitely contributed to the critical errors he made in the Finals

[Doctor Rivers]

Magic did come back with a vengeance and his record vs Bird in the Finals is 2-1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQzTCxWpdMM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-fEDLzNUMc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q92n5FcQigA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAMuXrTegSY

As great players always do.

:rolleyes:

duh

[D.J.]

Magic


He was the face of the Lakers. He was more efficient on the offensive end, made others around him better, better rebounder, better ball handler, made much smarter decisions with the basketball, and completely took over the team once Kareem aged and Riley told him he had to.

Kobe, although he too has 5 rings, only has 2 as the big dog. He's obviously the better scorer, but he does make some questionable decisions with the ball. His D is better, but his 25-30 PPG, his very average shooting percentage, and his choices do not put him above Magic

[Boston C's]

move on to magic vs jordan for the 1 spot before we hear anymore kobe driven agendas... magic has the vote count wrapped up pretty much

[AlphaWolf24]

Magic


He was the face of the Lakers. He was more efficient on the offensive end, made others around him better, better rebounder, better ball handler, made much smarter decisions with the basketball, and completely took over the team once Kareem aged and Riley told him he had to.

Kobe, although he too has 5 rings, only has 2 as the big dog. He's obviously the better scorer, but he does make some questionable decisions with the ball. His D is better, but his 25-30 PPG, his very average shooting percentage, and his choices do not put him above Magic


:facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

move on to magic vs jordan for the 1 spot before we hear anymore kobe driven agendas... magic has the vote count wrapped up pretty much


yup those 10 hard core fans:rolleyes: ...voted thier vote....

[Jacks3]

Magic wasn't the best player on the Lakers in 1980,82, or 85.

And I didn't realize 56% TS, 57% TS during prime, 58% TS at peak was average.

SMH.

[D.J.]

:facepalm


Who do you think was the big dog from 2000-2002? Perhaps it was one with 3 Finals MVP's?

[AlphaWolf24]

Who do you think was the big dog from 2000-2002? Perhaps it was one with 3 Finals MVP's?


So magic was the Big Dog in 1980 and Kareem was the Sidekick?....right?..according to your basketball math?...

I'll tell you who the Big Dog is..the Big Dog is the one with the ball in thier hands with the game on the line....

The Big dog is the first option in Crunchtime....

The Big dog is the one who puts up 33PPG 7REB 7AST on the 01' Spurs in the post season...

The Big Dog is the one called the best allaround player in the NBA at 22 years old.

The Big Dog is the one who stays and goes to 3 more NBA Finals....

The Big Dog gets voted as player of the Decade by the majority (not 10 bias fans online)...



The Big Dog isn't the one who gets traded (what is 6 times) plays on 7+ 50 win teams(without K24) capable of winning it all and never sniffs the type of domination he had with Kobe....



deal wit it son....



____________________________________


oh yeah...kareem is the greatest Center/ arguably GOAT...and you sittin here saying Kobe gets slighted for Shaq?.....



pssst...next

[Legends66NBA7]

Who do you think was the big dog from 2000-2002? Perhaps it was one with 3 Finals MVP's?

If I may:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kM2OdZPVaw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOcRucPSB8U&feature=channel_video_title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBMy_eb2MjM&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WFKeF0zUbY&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M74mSPzhKww&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjyelpOQ0Z8&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymhEWrLDXYA&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L82_EchHzr4&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7dLNpLa5Do&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCEzBtxuKLA&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kziv0TFEZnY&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnStXw5baEo&feature=channel_video_title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwIWoe2L2DQ&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1olhePhxyc&feature=relmfu

Now if only Game 1 of the 2002 Finals could be found, we would have the complete answer.

[crosso√er]

Magic


He was the face of the Lakers. He was more efficient on the offensive end, made others around him better, better rebounder, better ball handler, made much smarter decisions with the basketball, and completely took over the team once Kareem aged and Riley told him he had to.

Kobe, although he too has 5 rings, only has 2 as the big dog. He's obviously the better scorer, but he does make some questionable decisions with the ball. His D is better, but his 25-30 PPG, his very average shooting percentage, and his choices do not put him above Magic

Every-time someone mentions Kobe not being a "marque" player or "1st option caliber player" in either 01' or 02'; I instantly label an idiot. Notice how badly this project got derailed as soon as Kobe's name was brought up? People on both ends of the fence just have some weird infatuation with this guy.

Now back to my previous point. You have to look at the context of each situation to really truly find how valuable a player is; just because Kobe was considered the 2nd best player on his team should not minimize his accomplishments one bit especially in 01' & 02'.

If a player like Carmelo Anthony was surrounded by a bunch of All-Stars and won five rings as the best player on his team; does it really mean it holds more weight then Kobe winning a ring with Shaquille (being the 2nd best player)?

We all know Carmelo isn't better then Kobe yet he won five rings as the #1 option, should he get more credit for that? Of course not, because you always have to go into detail and actually observe the situation in greater detail.

Besides Shaquille & Kobe, LA never really had any player that was even remotely close to making the All-Star team in any of those years. None of them were considered more then glorified role players who stuck to their role & brought constant effort on the court. It was never Shaquille and company; it was Shaquille, Kobe & company because everyone who doesn't have agenda journals in their back-pocket know that Kobe was invaluable in 01' & 02'. He was their go-to guy in crunch time basically every game; considering opposition actually used Shaquille as an incentive to stop the clock and re-gain position (because of his free throw deficiencies). I remember countless times Kobe taking over games late in games and carrying his team to victories; in particular when Shaquille fouls out and Kobe rallies his team to victory in overtime, remember that?

If Shaquille carried Kobe and we should discredit Kobe from those first three championships; then how come Shaq couldn't carry Eddie Jones, Nick Van Axel and Elden Campbell prior to Kobe becoming a star in the NBA? Uhm...

It is kind of ironic actually that people keep emphasizing how lucky Kobe has been & most of his success should be attributed to Shaquille; yet the guy has more rings then Shaquille. Let's recap their teammates quickly shall we?

Shaq played with Wade, James, Bryant, Penny, Van Axel, Nash, E. Jones.
Kobe played with Shaq, Gasol, Odom & Bynum. :oldlol:

Paradox people.

So in conclusion; Kobe has five rings because he earned them. People were doubting the man after Shaquille left and he won more then Shaq himself. Kobe was at the very least the fifth best player in the league in 01' & 02' and arguably the 2nd or 3rd most dominant player throughout the playoffs in 01'. He was damn good in 02' and was alright in 00'. Only reason people try to belittle Kobe that year is because Shaq arguably had the greatest playoff run in league history, including a historic finals. People are quickly to shed light on how poorly Kobe played against Indiana but never once mention his injury early in that series.

Kobe might have been the 2nd option on the Lakers all those years, but he is a 1st option on every-team in the league besides SA, LA & Minnesota.

So because of that abnormal parity, we should discredit Kobe?
:rolleyes: Yeah, proceed with the hate.

[Boston C's]

yup those 10 hard core fans:rolleyes: ...voted thier vote....

have no idea what that means but lemme do what you do

yup you mad

2EZ

next

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[KingBeasley08]

Magic anyday

[RRR3]

http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/9f065a51641a5bc6e953292f82174f6e.jpg

[KingBeasley08]

^^^:lol


But seriously tho, I'd take the guy who doesnt airball in the clutch twice in a row :oldlol:

[RRR3]

^^^:lol


But seriously tho, I'd take the guy who doesnt airball in the clutch four times in a row :oldlol:
fixed. :lol

[HylianNightmare]

do we even need to make a magic vs mj thread everyone knows who is going to win, lets just move onto the forwards

[juju151111]

So magic was the Big Dog in 1980 and Kareem was the Sidekick?....right?..according to your basketball math?...

I'll tell you who the Big Dog is..the Big Dog is the one with the ball in thier hands with the game on the line....

The Big dog is the first option in Crunchtime....

The Big dog is the one who puts up 33PPG 7REB 7AST on the 01' Spurs in the post season...

The Big Dog is the one called the best allaround player in the NBA at 22 years old.

The Big Dog is the one who stays and goes to 3 more NBA Finals....

The Big Dog gets voted as player of the Decade by the majority (not 10 bias fans online)...



The Big Dog isn't the one who gets traded (what is 6 times) plays on 7+ 50 win teams(without K24) capable of winning it all and never sniffs the type of domination he had with Kobe....



deal wit it son....



____________________________________


oh yeah...kareem is the greatest Center/ arguably GOAT...and you sittin here saying Kobe gets slighted for Shaq?.....



pssst...next
Na I pretty sure the big dog wins 3 Fmvps and a Mvp in 2000. Yep I am pretty damn sure.:lol

[AlphaWolf24]

Na I pretty sure the big dog wins 3 Fmvps and a Mvp in 2000. Yep I am pretty damn sure.:lol


meh....

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg


"Big Dog"....can have his Final MVP's against the weak East......


real fans Know who the man was and still is....



next

[SuperPippen]

meh....

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg


"Big Dog"....can have his Final MVP's against the weak East......


real fans Know who the man was and still is....



next

You keep posting this idiotic pic as if it means anything.

Seriously, you actually give credibility to a silly public opinion poll that ranks LeBron over guys like Duncan, Shaq, and KG for player of the decade?!

Gross.






subsequent

[AlphaWolf24]

You keep posting this idiotic pic as if it means anything.

Seriously, you actually give credibility to a silly public opinion poll that ranks LeBron over guys like Duncan, Shaq, and KG for player of the decade?!

Gross.






subsequent

puplic opinion poll that used millions of voters means less then a poll of 10 people online???


and fans here say winning is so Overrated ....and all the winning has to be put in context as a "team award"...so why is it crazy that the majority has LBJ higher then Timmy and Shaq:confusedshrug:

[BIZARRO]

I think Kobe/Magic is an interesting comparison. Although I definitely and ultimately fall on the side of Magic, I think the Kobe argument has its merits.
Along with Pippen, Rodman, etc., Kobe's greatness as a player to me is one of the most difficult to quantify.
He is an enigma in so many ways, intimidating yet often disappears for stretches, deadly yet often inefficient, an absolutely incredible lockdown defender when he wants to be, but often takes plays off on D. Incredibly clutch, but also prone to poor decisions more than he should be.
I often think that Kobe's peak play, meaning his highest level over a stretch of a week or two, is the 2nd or 3rd greatest of all players, but I have a hard time putting him in the top 5 if his total body of work (just watching him play, not titles, all this team or that, etc.) is considered.
On my all time list he is somewhere in the top 10 (with a gun to my head at #6 behind MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq). Whereas Magic (with a gun to my head) is at #2 behind Mike.
I guess, for me it's hard to go against the magic of Magic, which is what puts him over the great big men for me at the end of the day, though it is certainly arguable.
If I want to win titles, all things being equal and I could have either Magic or Kobe. It's got to be Magic. And that answers the question for me.

Quick sidenote: I think Oscar should have won over West, and think that most guys who played against them would tell you the same thing. I understand West's argument, but I think the mark was missed on that one.

[AlphaWolf24]

I think Kobe/Magic is an interesting comparison. Although I definitely and ultimately fall on the side of Magic, I think the Kobe argument has its merits.
Along with Pippen, Rodman, etc., Kobe's greatness as a player to me is one of the most difficult to quantify.
He is an enigma in so many ways, intimidating yet often disappears for stretches, deadly yet often inefficient, an absolutely incredible lockdown defender when he wants to be, but often takes plays off on D. Incredibly clutch, but also prone to poor decisions more than he should be.
I often think that Kobe's peak play, meaning his highest level over a stretch of a week or two, is the 2nd or 3rd greatest of all players, but I have a hard time putting him in the top 5 if his total body of work (just watching him play, not titles, all this team or that, etc.) is considered.
On my all time list he is somewhere in the top 10 (with a gun to my head at #6 behind MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq). Whereas Magic (with a gun to my head) is at #2 behind Mike.
I guess, for me it's hard to go against the magic of Magic, which is what puts him over the great big men for me at the end of the day, though it is certainly arguable.
If I want to win titles, all things being equal and I could have either Magic or Kobe. It's got to be Magic. And that answers the question for me.

Quick sidenote: I think Oscar should have won over West, and think that most guys who played against them would tell you the same thing. I understand West's argument, but I think the mark was missed on that one.


just curious...does that mean Bill Russell is better then Jordan on your imaginary top 10 list?

since what put Magic over Kobe is ability to win (but they both won 5:confusedshrug: )....please explain.

[BIZARRO]

just curious...does that mean Bill Russell is better then Jordan on your imaginary top 10 list?

since what put Magic over Kobe is ability to win (but they both won 5:confusedshrug: )....please explain.

Nope, if I wanted to win more titles I'd choose Mike over Russell too. Just because Russell has more titles than MJ, doesn't mean that, all things being equal, he would have more titles than him. That is flawed logic.
Rick Mahorn has more titles than Barkley, does that make him a player who you would win more titles with.
All things equal, I think Magic would get you a better chance at winning a title of Kobe, regardless of how many each currently has.

Actual titles come with a whoooooole lot of context, sure they are important, but there is so much more that goes into it when looking at a player.

Incidentally,the whole "how many titles" argument it is why I think Oscar is VASTLY underrated on this board, along with Ewing, Karl Malone, Barkley, etc...and why Hakeem is overrated on this board. GREAT player sure, but overrated here IMO.
Michael Jordan's best play to me was before he ever won a title, but if he played in '88, '89, and '90 with a better cast and wins a title then, does that make him greater? You just have to weigh in everything.
And for me, weighing in everything, I think Magic gives you a better shot at a title than Kobe.

And I think you can tell from my earlier post, I have mad respect for Kobe, just trying to be objective.

[AlphaWolf24]

Nope, if I wanted to win more titles I'd choose Mike over Russell too. Just because Russell has more titles than MJ, doesn't mean that, all things being equal, he would have more titles than him. That is flawed logic.
Rick Mahorn has more titles than Barkley, does that make him a player who you would win more titles with.
All things equal, I think Magic would get you a better chance at winning a title of Kobe, regardless of how many each currently has.

Actual titles come with a whoooooole lot of context, sure they are important, but there is so much more that goes into it when looking at a player.

Incidentally,the whole "how many titles" argument it is why I think Oscar is VASTLY underrated on this board, along with Ewing, Karl Malone, Barkley, etc...and why Hakeem is overrated on this board. GREAT player sure, but overrated here IMO.
Michael Jordan's best play to me was before he ever won a title, but if he played in '88, '89, and '90 with a better cast and wins a title then, does that make him greater? You just have to weigh in everything.
And for me, weighing in everything, I think Magic gives you a better shot at a title than Kobe.

And I think you can tell from my earlier post, I have mad respect for Kobe, just trying to be objective.


wait..... Thinking a player who won 14 major basketball Titles in 13 years (Russ) is better at winning Titles , then a player who won 8 in 18 years (MJ) is flawed logic?...


and then you compared Rick Mahorn to Barkley....since when were they in similar roles....

all things bieng equal as you say I agree....magic could probably take any group of players and make them achieve greatness more so then any player ever..."make your team better"....so would you put him over Jordan also since Magic is clearly superior to Jordan in that same criteria.

[BIZARRO]

wait..... Thinking a player who won 14 major basketball Titles in 13 years (Russ) is better at winning Titles , then a player who won 7 in 15 years (MJ) is flawed logic?...


and then you compared Rick Mahorn to Barkley....since when were they in similar roles....

all things bieng equal as you say I agree....magic could probably take any group of players and make them achieve greatness more so then any player ever..."make your team better"....so would you put him over Jordan also since Magic is clearly superior to Jordan in that same criteria.

In answer to your question, taking into account nothing but the nuber of titles with Russell/MJ, and using nothing else the way you are is definitely flawed logic.
Yes, the way you are trying to twist what I am saying turns it into definitely flawed logic. But the fact that you can't understand the actuality of what I am saying, and of the point I am making, regardless of whether you agree with it, shows a lack of objectivity and subtlety.
Isiah, who is underrated on this board IMO, has more titles than Oscar, but is he "better" at winning titles. All things being equal I would say no. You see, you are missing the "all things being equal" point.

Rick Mahorn and Barkley was just a random comparison of two Power forwards,as is Oscar/Isiah with point guard.

And no, Magic is not "clearly" superior to Jordan in that criteria IMO. I would argue that Mike is superior, though I think Magic has an argument. If I wanted to win titles though, I would go with Mike over Magic more often than not.
To say Magic is "clearly" superior in that criteria is just off base, and the absolute nature of that comment loses it's objectivity.

[SuperPippen]

In answer to your question, taking into account nothing but the nuber of titles with Russell/MJ, and using nothing else the way you are is definitely flawed logic.
Yes, the way you are trying to twist what I am saying turns it into definitely flawed logic. But the fact that you can't understand the actuality of what I am saying, and of the point I am making, regardless of whether you agree with it, shows a lack of objectivity and subtlety.
Isiah, who is underrated on this board IMO, has more titles than Oscar, but is he "better" at winning titles. All things being equal I would say no. You see, you are missing the "all things being equal" point.

Rick Mahorn and Barkley was just a random comparison of two Power forwards,as is Oscar/Isiah with point guard.

And no, Magic is not "clearly" superior to Jordan in that criteria IMO. I would argue that Mike is superior, though I think Magic has an argument. If I wanted to win titles though, I would go with Mike over Magic more often than not.
To say Magic is "clearly" superior in that criteria is just off base, and the absolute nature of that comment loses it's objectivity.

That pretty much describes AlphaWolf in a nutshell.

You have my respect for trying to reason with the unreasonable. I'll try to do it too, on occasion, whenever I'm bored and I feel like shooting down any of Alpha's "arguments."

[Legends66NBA7]

That pretty much describes AlphaWolf in a nutshell.

You have my respect for trying to reason with the unreasonable. I'll try to do it too, on occasion, whenever I'm bored and I feel like shooting down any of Alpha's "arguments."

+1.

And you also have to have a good sense of humor.

[AlphaWolf24]

In answer to your question, taking into account nothing but the nuber of titles with Russell/MJ, and using nothing else the way you are is definitely flawed logic.
Yes, the way you are trying to twist what I am saying turns it into definitely flawed logic. But the fact that you can't understand the actuality of what I am saying, and of the point I am making, regardless of whether you agree with it, shows a lack of objectivity and subtlety.
Isiah, who is underrated on this board IMO, has more titles than Oscar, but is he "better" at winning titles. All things being equal I would say no. You see, you are missing the "all things being equal" point.

Rick Mahorn and Barkley was just a random comparison of two Power forwards,as is Oscar/Isiah with point guard.

And no, Magic is not "clearly" superior to Jordan in that criteria IMO. I would argue that Mike is superior, though I think Magic has an argument. If I wanted to win titles though, I would go with Mike over Magic more often than not.
To say Magic is "clearly" superior in that criteria is just off base, and the absolute nature of that comment loses it's objectivity.



I can't understand ...because picking someone who won 8 major titles (MJ) in 18 years(as a main contributor) over someone who won 14 major titles (Russ)in 13 years(as a main contributor) and trying to interpolate how MJ is better at winning....when he clearly isn't???


not trying to be anti subtle....but it's hard to understand your logic and try to read between the lines when you give no reason beyond "all things if equal"....and then don't even explain what that means???

and Magic was a far better facilitator then Jordan....Magic was a far greater winner too....he was a champion and Dominated at every level to go aong with winning 5 Titles in whats widely regarded as the greatest era of basketball......9 NBA Finals and "0" sub .500 seasons....

if you want to use context and "all things equal" please explain...until then I'll try to interpolate.

[AlphaWolf24]

That pretty much describes AlphaWolf in a nutshell.

You have my respect for trying to reason with the unreasonable. I'll try to do it too, on occasion, whenever I'm bored and I feel like shooting down any of Alpha's "arguments."


how was I being unreasonable....:confusedshrug:


asked him if Russell was on top of his list since he won 14 major titles??

Jordan stans are cranky today....

[The-Legend-24]

how was I being unreasonable....:confusedshrug:


asked him if Russell was on top of his list since he won 14 major titles??

Jordan stans are cranky today....
When aren't they? :oldlol:

[onhcetum]

Kobe has never ever carried a team on his own before. From 2005-2007, he couldn't do crap without Shaq. He and the Lakers were dead fish in the water going no where. And in 2008, when they made it back to the finals, they got blown out in Game 6 (imagine what the result would have actually have been if they didn't have Gasol? Would they even be in the finals)?

At least Allen Iverson, Dwayne Wade, Jason Kidd, and Tim Duncan CARRIED THEIR TEAMS.

Magic Johnson was carrying the Lakers since he joined them as a rookie...

[eliteballer]

In answer to your question, taking into account nothing but the nuber of titles with Russell/MJ, and using nothing else the way you are is definitely flawed logic.
Yes, the way you are trying to twist what I am saying turns it into definitely flawed logic. But the fact that you can't understand the actuality of what I am saying, and of the point I am making, regardless of whether you agree with it, shows a lack of objectivity and subtlety.
Isiah, who is underrated on this board IMO, has more titles than Oscar, but is he "better" at winning titles. All things being equal I would say no. You see, you are missing the "all things being equal" point.

Rick Mahorn and Barkley was just a random comparison of two Power forwards,as is Oscar/Isiah with point guard.

And no, Magic is not "clearly" superior to Jordan in that criteria IMO. I would argue that Mike is superior, though I think Magic has an argument. If I wanted to win titles though, I would go with Mike over Magic more often than not.
To say Magic is "clearly" superior in that criteria is just off base, and the absolute nature of that comment loses it's objectivity.


:oldlol: Your delusional.

[Doctor Rivers]

:oldlol: Your delusional.

You're

[BIZARRO]

:oldlol: Your delusional.

Yes, the "your" pretty much says it all. :facepalm

[D.J.]

Michael never lost a series with home court and won 2 titles without it. Not to mention he's 6-0 when making the Finals. But Magic is clearly superior to him. :facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

Michael never lost a series with home court and won 2 titles without it. Not to mention he's 6-0 when making the Finals. But Magic is clearly superior to him. :facepalm


and Magic never led his team to 5 Losing seasons....

5 outta 9 Finals with 12 Winning seasons> 6 outta 6 Finals with 5 Losing seasons...



next

[Kblaze8855]

Suppose I need to count all this up and make the final one....

No clue what is after that. I assume GOAT is still around and not posting for some reason. Guess ill wait for him to do the forward one.

[D.J.]

and Magic never led his team to 5 Losing seasons....

5 outta 9 Finals with 12 Winning seasons> 6 outta 6 Finals with 5 Losing seasons...



next


And Magic wasn't putting up 23/6/5 at 39 and 20/6/4 at 40 and taking a garbage Wizards team to a near .500 record. Next.

[DaPerceive]

and Magic never led his team to 5 Losing seasons....

5 outta 9 Finals with 12 Winning seasons> 6 outta 6 Finals with 5 Losing seasons...



next
The only seasons where MJ failed to make the playoffs was when he was with the Wizards. So yeah lets penalize a guy who shouldn't even have been playing at the time. I am assuming your definition of losing is under .500? I don't know why it matters if you make the playoffs though.

[oolalaa]

Everyone vote for kobe so we can have a jordan vs kobe debate in the next round! :oldlol:

No, seriously though, anyone who thinks kobe was/is a better player than earvin 'magic' johnson needs to get their head examined. :hammerhead:

Kobe might be more 'skilled' (whatever that means) but magic is the greatest playmaker the nba has ever seen. No one in history has raised his teammates level of play to the extent magic did for 12 straight years.

Magic was a also a much better leader and teammate (kobe has improved in this regard in the last 3 1/2 yrs), better in the clutch (yes that's right), a better rebounder and could play all 5 positions. He is the greatest laker of all time.

Kobe is great, but not that great.

[AlphaWolf24]

And Magic wasn't putting up 23/6/5 at 39 and 20/6/4 at 40 and taking a garbage Wizards team to a near .500 record. Next.


and Magic still didn't have 3 Losing seasons .....

Magic was by far a better winner and leader then Jordan....don't even say he wasn't.... you would sound stupid




next

[AlphaWolf24]

Everyone vote for kobe so we can have a jordan vs kobe debate in the next round! :oldlol:

No, seriously though, anyone who thinks kobe was/is a better player than earvin 'magic' johnson needs to get their head examined. :hammerhead:

Kobe might be more 'skilled' (whatever that means) but magic is the greatest playmaker the nba has ever seen. No one in history has raised his teammates level of play to the extent magic did for 12 straight years.

Magic was a also a much better leader and teammate (kobe has improved in this regard in the last 3 1/2 yrs), better in the clutch (yes that's right), a better rebounder and could play all 5 positions. He is the greatest laker of all time.

Kobe is great, but not that great.


So Magic Johnson and Jerry West need their head examined then???


and all those reasons that you listed Magic as bieng better then Kobe....should defintely put him on the #1 spot then...right?

[JordanTime]

Magic Johnson is my vote.

Kobe Bryant better than Magic Johnson is a joke.

Magic Johnson

[B]5

[with malice]

Whilst I agree that Magic ranks over Kobe, those declaring it to be "a joke" to have Kobe near him either don't watch the game with any degree of objectivity, or don't watch the game, period.

[AlphaWolf24]

[QUOTE=JordanTime]Magic Johnson is my vote.

Kobe Bryant better than Magic Johnson is a joke.

Magic Johnson

[B]5

[kurt_rambis]

yeah it's magic. not even that close

stats, awards, and championships aside, it basically come down to who would you rather have leading your team: magic or kobe

and is anyone honestly going to pick kobe?

on the jordan comparison....i mean, magic's been my favorite player since i was 9 years old, but you can't argue that he's better than mike. even if jordan didn't have more rings it'd be a nearly impossible argument

i do, however, think the 80's lakers were a better team than the 90's bulls. come at me bro

[with malice]

Kobe's should move past Magic.....he already has in the real world.
Hmmm... in what way? Most "Greatest All Time" lists I've seen have Magic over Bryant, and even that is completely subjective. Under what criteria?
I think that perhaps when all's said and done, Kobe will probably rank above Magic - but I'm not sure that that's "now". It's very close tho'.

[kurt_rambis]

and still going.....the only thing Magic has over Kobe is Media MVP's....kobe should at minimum have 2 - 3 more League MVP's...for christ sakes Steve F'in Nash??? come on...can you say Media screwed...


it's not really a popularity contest or media bias....the mvp generally goes to the best player on the best team in the league. kobe's most impressive statistical seasons were on laker clubs that were average at best

[AlphaWolf24]

yeah it's magic. not even that close

stats, awards, and championships aside, it basically come down to who would you rather have leading your team: magic or kobe

and is anyone honestly going to pick kobe?

on the jordan comparison....i mean, magic's been my favorite player since i was 9 years old, but you can't argue that he's better than mike. even if jordan didn't have more rings it'd be a nearly impossible argument

i do, however, think the 80's lakers were a better team than the 90's bulls. come at me bro


Jerry west...

I would most likely too....Longer career , more championships.....most likley when it's all said and done Kobe will have a much better career then Magic.

[Droid101]

it's not really a popularity contest or media bias....the mvp generally goes to the best player on the best team in the league. kobe's most impressive statistical seasons were on laker clubs that were average at best
Isn't it cool that no matter how good you are, that if you are surrounded by scrubbies, that you can't win the MVP award?

Makes it seem pretty useless, no?

[JordanTime]

Kobe Bryant

5X NBA Champion (2000 , 2001 , 2002 , 2009 , 2010)
2008 NBA MVP
13X NBA Allstar
9X all NBA First team
9X all NBA First Team defense
2X Finals MVP
4X NBA Allstar game MVP
1997 NBA Slam Dunk champion
2X all NBA 2nd team defense

and still going.....the only thing Magic has over Kobe is Media MVP's....kobe should at minimum have 2 - 3 more League MVP's...for christ sakes Steve F'in Nash??? come on...can you say Media screwed...

and Longevity???..Kobe Barely played his first 2 years.....



Kobe's should move past Magic.....he already has in the real world.

In those 5 championship.......how times did Kobe lead a team to the finals as the team best player?

2008 MVP is a joke. That Award had Chris Paul name written all over it.

Kobe Bryant deserves NO MVP's. I repeat NO MVP!!

[SuperPippen]

Kobe Bryant

5X NBA Champion (2000 , 2001 , 2002 , 2009 , 2010)
2008 NBA MVP
13X NBA Allstar
9X all NBA First team
9X all NBA First Team defense
2X Finals MVP
4X NBA Allstar game MVP
1997 NBA Slam Dunk champion
2X all NBA 2nd team defense

and still going.....the only thing Magic has over Kobe is Media MVP's....kobe should at minimum have 2 - 3 more League MVP's...for christ sakes Steve F'in Nash??? come on...can you say Media screwed...

and Longevity???..Kobe Barely played his first 2 years.....



Kobe's should move past Magic.....he already has in the real world.

What real world? In the world I see, in the only world I see, Magic Johnson was better than Kobe Bryant, and the vast majority of people - both casual fans of basketball, and hardcore - would agree with me in saying that.

Nobody but other Kobe stans like yourself would agree with your views. And that's the difference here.






subsequent

[catch24]

Jerry west...

I would most likely too....Longer career , more championships.....most likley when it's all said and done Kobe will have a much better career then Magic.

So, Bill Simmons and SLAM Magazine are just part of a warped reality?

[kurt_rambis]

Jerry west...

I would most likely too....Longer career , more championships.....most likley when it's all said and done Kobe will have a much better career then Magic.

likely schmikely, i'll believe it when i see it

the lakers are nearly at a rebuilding stage, and he's on the backend of his career. his stats are only going to get worse from now on, so his career averages are going to drop, further sullying his legacy

[kurt_rambis]

Isn't it cool that no matter how good you are, that if you are surrounded by scrubbies, that you can't win the MVP award?

Makes it seem pretty useless, no?

it's the most valuable player award, not most talented player. if you score 40 points per game but your team doesn't make the playoffs, who are you of value to?

[AlphaWolf24]

it's not really a popularity contest or media bias....the mvp generally goes to the best player on the best team in the league. kobe's most impressive statistical seasons were on laker clubs that were average at best


generally?

ok...

2009 he was the best player on the best team...

2010 he was the best player on the best team...

2001 he was the best player on the best team...



all very impressive statistical seasons.....with some of the best playoff runs ever....should have been MVP ...

next

[Droid101]

it's the most valuable player award, not most talented player. if you score 40 points per game but your team doesn't make the playoffs, who are you of value to?
This is a joke, right?

So you're saying if a dude averaged 40ppg, 9.5rpg, 8.5apg, 55% shooting, and missed the playoffs because his teammates (combined) averaged 45ppg, 15rpg, 5apg, and 31% shooting, he's not the most valuable player?

Get the **** outta here with that noise. It ain't his fault his teammates suck.