How Many Quad-Doubles Did Wilt Have?

[jlauber]

Interesting question...

Here is what we do know.

Just in Chamberlain's 67-68 season, alone, he had 31 TRIPLE-DOUBLES. Included in those were a streak of NINE straight, which is an NBA record (and his 31 is second only to Oscar's 41 in one season.)

And in that season, Wilt had the ONLY DOUBLE-TRIPLE-DOUBLE game in NBA history (22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists.) Not only that, but how about a TRIPLE-DOUBLE game of 53 points (on 24-29 shooting), with 32 rebounds, and 14 assists? Not only that, but Wilt had a KNOWN quad-double in the '67 ECF's against Russell's Celtics, when he hung a 24-32-13-12 game on the 60-21 Celtics and their SIX HOFers.

The problem is, the NBA did not "officially" tabulate blocked shots. Of course, statisticians would routinely compile them on their own. Harvey Pollack, who is the most esteemed stats maven in any major professional sport, estimated that Chamberlain had an entire SEASON of 10+ bpg. He had one game in which he "lost count" after 25 blocks. We also KNOW that Wilt had a RECORDED game in the 68-69 season in which he blocked 23 shots.

So, given the fact that Wilt had a KNOWN 78 TRIPLE-DOUBLES in his career, and given the fact that he probably blocked 7-8 shots per game over the course of his ENTIRE career, one can only logically assume that he must have had a TON of quad-doubles in his career.

BTW, some other interesting stats that some here may not know. Wilt's very FIRST NBA game was a 43 point (on 17-27 shooting), 28 rebound, 17 blocked shots game. His very LAST game, and in the NBA Finals, was a DOUBLE-DOUBLE, of 23 points (on 9-16 shooting) with 21 rebounds. In fact, there is a very good chance that Wilt is the REAL all-time DOUBLE-DOUBLE leader in NBA history (despite the fact that Karl Malone is credited as such.)

And while the NBA "officially" recognizes Elmore Smith as the single game block leader, with 17, it is well known that both Wilt and Russell blocked more shots in a game.

How about 30-30 games. The entire NBA, in it's history, has had 28 of them. Wilt had 103 by himself, including TWO in his 71-72 season (his second-to-last season...and one of them was a 31-32 game against 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier.)

40-30 games? The ENTIRE NBA, in it's long history, has had SIX. How about Wilt? 55 of them (including 17 against Russell.)

50-30 games. Mikan had two, and Baylor had one. That's it...except for Wilt, who had 21 of them (and another two in the playoffs...one a 56-35 game five in a best-of-five series, and the other a 50-35 game in a must win game against Russell's Celtics.)

40-40 games? ONLY Wilt has achieved that, and he did it EIGHT times (one of them against Russell).

50-40 games. Obviously, ONLY Wilt, and he did it FOUR times. Included in that was a 78-43 game.

126 straight games of 25+ points.

65 straight games of 30+ points.

14 straight games of 40+ points (which he did TWICE...and he averaged 53 and 54 ppg in those two streaks)

7 straight games of 50+ points (and another of 6)

How about this streak? Wilt scored 351 points over the course of five straight games...or 70 ppg!

60+ point games. The rest of the entire NBA has 30 (MJ and Kobe each have five)...Wilt, with 32. Included in that is 4 of the 6 at .700+ shooting, including the highest FG% in a 60+ point game (.829 on 29-35 shooting.)

70+ point games. The entire NBA has FOUR. Wilt had SIX.

40+ rebounding games. The entire NBA has 13. Wilt had 15, including the record of 55, in a game in which he outrebounded Russell, 55-19.

"Perfect" games. Wilt has the THREE highest in NBA history (all in the same season, and games of 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18.) He also made 35 straight shots, which is, by far, the all-time NBA record.

Just some food for thought...

[PHILA]

Not only that, but Wilt had a KNOWN quad-double in the '67 ECF's against Russell's Celtics, when he hung a 24-32-13-12 game on the 60-21 Celtics and their SIX HOFers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=6m31s


Hartford Courant - Apr 1, 1967

Greer pumped in 39 points, mostly on long jump shots, while Chamberlain grabbed 32 rebounds, handed out 12 assists, scored 24 points and blocked a dozen shots.

[winwin]

Wilt >> MJ

[Miserio]

Against a bunch of white unathletic Mugsy Boguess

[jlauber]

Against a bunch of white unathletic Mugsy Boguess

Yep...Wilt was lucky to have only faced guys like five-time all-star Zelmo Beaty, multiple all-star Wayne Embry, 6-9 multiple all-star Red Kerr, 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond, 6-9 HOFer Willis Reed, 6-9 HOFer Elvin Hayes, 6-7 HOFer Wes Unseld, 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier, 6-9 HOFer Dave Cowens, 6-8 HOFer Jerry Lucas, 6-10 HOFer Bill Russell, and 7-2 HOFer Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. In addition he routinely battled 7-0 270 lb. Tom Boerwinkle, 7-0 Mel Counts, 7-0 Hank Finkel, 7-0 Walter Dukes, and even 7-3 Swede Holbrook. And there another dozen or so 6-11 players he fought in his era, as well. AND, players were measure BARE-FOOT in that era...so you could easily add an inch to almost everyone of them by using TODAY's measuring in SHOES.

[Miserio]

Yep...Wilt was lucky to have only faced guys like five-time all-star Zelmo Beaty, multiple all-star Wayne Embry, 6-9 multiple all-star Red Kerr, 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond, 6-9 HOFer Willis Reed, 6-9 HOFer Elvin Hayes, 6-7 HOFer Wes Unseld, 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier, 6-9 HOFer Dave Cowens, 6-8 HOFer Jerry Lucas, 6-10 HOFer Bill Russell, and 7-2 HOFer Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. In addition he routinely battled 7-0 270 lb. Tom Boerwinkle, 7-0 Mel Counts, 7-0 Hank Finkel, 7-0 Walter Dukes, and even 7-3 Swede Holbrook. And there another dozen or so 6-11 players he fought in his era, as well. AND, players were measure BARE-FOOT in that era...so you could easily add an inch to almost everyone of them by using TODAY's measuring in SHOES.
all scrubs

[jlauber]

all scrubs

Oh I agree. We KNOW that Kareem was a "scrub" well into the 80's. No way a Kareem would be worth a damn in today's NBA. Just ask Hakeem and Ewing, both of whom, in their primes, would be cannon-fodder for guys like Rony Turiaff and Chuck Hayes.

[Miserio]

Oh I agree. We KNOW that Kareem was a "scrub" well into the 80's. No way a Kareem would be worth a damn in today's NBA. Just ask Hakeem and Ewing, both of whom, in their primes, would be cannon-fodder for guys like Rony Turiaff and Chuck Hayes.
Kareem = poor mans Andrew Bogut

[jlauber]

I haven't seen the numbers, but I suspect that Wilt had numerous triple-doubles in his '67 season, too, as well as the documented '68 season. In his '67 season, he averaged 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, and on top of that, he shot .683 (which was miles ahead of the next guy, Walt Bellamy, at .521...and light-years ahead of the entire league, which collectively shot .441.)

[jlauber]

Kareem = poor mans Andrew Bogut

I would take Kareem, TODAY, over Bogut.

[jlauber]

And what chance would a Chamberlain have in today's NBA, as well? My god, he was only 7-2 (and would be listed at 7-3 in shoes), with a 7-8 wingspan, 280-300+ lbs, with massive strength, amazing leaping ability, track speed, and 10-15 ft+ range, with a variety of post moves, and unbelieveable passing ability. Again, guys like 6-6 Chuck Hayes would be feasting on a helpless prime Wilt.

[Legends66NBA7]

Not sure. He has 78 recorded triple doubles. But he was known as a damn good shot blocker as well. So i guess it's safe to say it's below 78, not that it gives an exact number. Here's the only one I am aware off:

-Game 1 of the 1967 Eastern Division Finals against the Boston Celtics, when he had 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists and 12 blocks.

[jlauber]

Not sure. He has 78 recorded triple doubles. But he was known as a damn good shot blocker as well. So i guess it's safe to say it's below 78, not that it gives an exact number. Here's the only one I am aware off:

-Game 1 of the 1967 Eastern Division Finals against the Boston Celtics, when he had 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists and 12 blocks.

His 78 "trips" rank 4th all-time, too, behind guys like Oscar (181), Magic (138), and Kidd (105.)

I think an educated estimate would perhaps be as many as 20.

[Borat]

I would take Kareem, TODAY, over Bogut.

Bogut is a good NBA player homeschool.

[jlauber]

Another consideration...assists were considerably more difficult to get in Wilt's era...so he was probably robbed of a large number of those in his career, as well.

[jlauber]

Bogut is a good NBA player homeschool.

It's relative. He is good in an era of horribly weak centers.

[Miserio]

Really you are one of the most annoying persons EVER when you talk about Wilt (almost every time) you're such a homer that makes one think if your life is really as shitty as we think

[Legends66NBA7]

Is it true that Bill Russell has 4 quad doubles in the playoffs alone ?

[jlauber]

Is it true that Bill Russell has 4 quad doubles in the playoffs alone ?

Maybe ThaRegul8r can assist with this. I certainly wouldn't doubt it.

[jlauber]

Really you are one of the most annoying persons EVER when you talk about Wilt (almost every time) you're such a homer that makes one think if your life is really as shitty as we think

Must be as bad as your's, since you not only took the time to read my post, but to then waste even more time in responding to it.

[The Macho Man]

Block a few of my shots, good D. Block 25 of my shots, I'm playin like an idiot.

[Hondo]

I'd love to know Wilt and Bill's block averages, also Nate Thurmond.

[Borat]

It's relative. He is good in an era of horribly weak centers.

But he is better than Kareem is now. Kareem is 64 years old.

[Miserio]

Must be as bad as your's, since you not only took the time to read my post, but to then waste even more time in responding to it.
I'm not a crazy stat guy who knows EVERYTHING about a player. How big was his dick?

[iamgine]

I have to wonder, in order to dominate like that, either he must've been really good or his competition must've sucked. Or both.

[jlauber]

Block a few of my shots, good D. Block 25 of my shots, I'm playin like an idiot.

Good points, but Wilt was knocking Kareem's "unblockable" sky-hooks all over the court, as well, while holding him to 100+ points under his seasonal and career FG%'s. Just in THREE of their six games of the '72 WCF's, he rejected 15 of them. Given the fact that the two went H2H in 28 career matchups (27 of them after Wilt's knee surgery...and in the twilight of his career), he might very well have blocked 50-100 of them.

[jlauber]

I have to wonder, in order to dominate like that, either he must've been really good or his competition must've sucked. Or both.

Hayes, Unseld, Lanier, Reed, Bellamy, Lucas, Embry, Lovellette, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem...all in the HOF (and many of whom were dominant in the 70's.)

[iamgine]

Hayes, Unseld, Lanier, Reed, Bellamy, Lucas, Embry, Lovellette, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem...all in the HOF (and many of whom were dominant in the 70's.)
Competition aren't just a select few though. It's collective.

[jlauber]

I'd love to know Wilt and Bill's block averages, also Nate Thurmond.

Thurmond was well past his prime when the NBA actually began to officially record blocks.

As for Wilt. In Rosen's book on the '72 Lakers, he had Wilt with one game of 15 blocks. Psileas posted an article which had some 40-50 games with Wilt's recorded blocks in '72, and I believe Chamberlain averaged over 7 bpg in that span. He also averaged 7.4 bpg in the Finals that season (thanks toThaRegul8r for that info.) This was a 35 year old Wilt, in his second to last season, and playing on a surgically repaired knee.

I have no idea how mant shots Russell blocked in his career, but he and Wilt are considered the two greatest shot blockers in NBA history.

[jlauber]

Competition aren't just a select few though. It's collective.

That applies to ALL eras, though. Average and below-average players exist in every season.

[Borat]

Competition aren't just a select few though. It's collective.

Yes but he put up the same or similar stat lines against these players as he did the worse players.

He was ahead of his time. He would be a shaq like player in todays day and age, but playing in a era where the game had not quiter developed athletically, skillfully and professionally as today.

[iamgine]

That applies to ALL eras, though. Average and below-average players exist in every season.
But perhaps the gap was much wider in that era.

[Borat]

I have no idea how mant shots Russell blocked in his career, but he and Wilt are considered the two greatest shot blockers in NBA history.

Guys like Mutombo, Robinson, Mourning and Olajuwon are in that discussion. They have great block shot numbers against players that are more adept and creative at finishing.

[jlauber]

But perhaps the gap was much wider in that era.

Maybe, maybe not. In Wilt's '67 season, in a ten team league, he routinely faced the likes of Reed, Embry, Beaty, Bellamy, Thurmond, and Russell (he played against each team in the league NINE times.)

All he did that season was average 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, and shot .683 from the field.

He also AVERAGED a near 30-30 game against RUSSELL in his 142 CAREER H2H's (28.7 ppg, and 28.7 rpg.) He hung 24 games of 40+ points on him, as well as five of 50+ (and even a high game of 62.) In addition, he had 17 40-30 games against him.

[iamgine]

If Dwight Howard still play with Amare, Bogut, Bynum, Love, etc but the rest of the NBA is replaced by college players level then Howard's gonna dominate too because the gap is wide. Is that what happen in that era?

[Sarcastic]

Guys like Mutombo, Robinson, Mourning and Olajuwon are in that discussion. They have great block shot numbers against players that are more adept and creative at finishing.

Mark Eaton and Manute Bol too.

[jlauber]

If Dwight Howard still play with Amare, Bogut, Bynum, Love, etc but the rest of the NBA is replaced by college players level then Howard's gonna dominate too because the gap is wide. Is that what happen in that era?

I really think the early 70's was the golden age of centers. First off, 7-2 Artis Gilmore was an NBA-level center (while he dominated in the ABA, he is the all-time NBA FG% leader), then there was Hayes, Cowens, Reed, Bellamy, Lanier, Unseld, McAdoo, Thurmond, Kareem, and Chamberlain...ALL in the HOF.

Interesting, too, that Wilt DOMINATED those guys on the glass, was voted first-team all-defense over them in his LAST two seasons, and shot .649 and .727 from the field in those last two seasons. In fact, in his LAST post-season, he averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 games (and on 47.1 mpg)...in a league that averaged 50.6 rpg. Then, think about this. That was the LAST time an NBA player ever averaged 20+ rpg in the post-season...AND, the next best post-season is Kareem's '77 playoff run, at 17.3 rpg.

[The_Yearning]

It's relative. He is good in an era of horribly weak centers.

Lmao did this guy just talk about different eras?

Oh the irony.

Wilt basically was playing with himself to get those stats brah.

[jlauber]

Lmao did this guy just talk about different eras?

Oh the irony.

Wilt basically was playing with himself to get those stats brah.


http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently.

Stewart, Larry (1999-10-13). "Giant Towered Over the Rest". The Los Angeles Times.

[jlauber]

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


In 1982, when he was 45 and Philadelphia 76er owner Harold Katz was hot after him, the Houston Chronicle's George White asked Elvin Hayes if Chamberlain could still play. "Some things about Wilt, you never forgot," Hayes said. "He was such an awesome physical specimen. To go up under Wilt Chamberlain, to be down there and look up at him when he's towering up over you waiting to dunk, was a terrifying picture. To see him poised up there, knowing he was about to sweep down with that big jam . . . that must be the most frightening sight in sports. The ball goes shooting through the net and you better have your body covered up because he could really hurt someone. I was scared. Everyone was scared when he got that look in his eye, that don't-try-to-stop-this look that he got when he really wanted it. . . . "I think Russell realized there was no way he could have stopped Wilt if he had been fully intent on making it a two-man game. No one who ever put on a uniform could have done it. When I played him, I kept this foremost in my mind: Above all, don't make him mad. Don't embarrass him. You wanted to keep him quiet as long as possible."
Heisler, Mark (1999-10-13). "Larger Than Life". The Los Angeles Times.


"Nobody seems to appreciate what an incredible player Wilt was," Russell said at 1997 All-Star Game when the league named and honored its 50 greatest players. "He was the best player of all time because he dominated the floor like nobody else ever could. To be that big and that athletic was special."

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Trolling aside, Wilt was one of the most complete centers ever, and a fierce rebounder to boot! (in-fact, arguably the greatest). I do think that Rodman was the ultimate hustler/rebounder player though. He took a GARGANTUAN 18.7RPG on 44.3RPG available on his team, that's impressive. Chamberlain never surpassed 40% (available rebounds) of his team; Rodman (from

[millwad]

Maybe, maybe not. In Wilt's '67 season, in a ten team league, he routinely faced the likes of Reed, Embry, Beaty, Bellamy, Thurmond, and Russell (he played against each team in the league NINE times.)

Overrate his competition a little more, Jbieber.

Embry was a 6'8 center who over his career averaged 12.5 points per game on 44% shooting and do what you always do, blame it on the era. The dude was a poor rebounder too for playing in that era. Statwise he is not better than some decent power forward with worse FG% and we all can be sure that he skillwise ain't no where close to the forwards-centers of today.


Reed and Bellamy played on the same team in '67, they were so amazing together that they and their Knick team collected 36 wins over the whole year, haha..:facepalm

And personally I'd be so scared to play Thurmond in '67, the guy was a beast... who only made 43% of shots..:facepalm

And by then Russell wasn't in his prime anymore..

AMAZING COMPETITION!



He also AVERAGED a near 30-30 game against RUSSELL in his 142 CAREER H2H's (28.7 ppg, and 28.7 rpg.) He hung 24 games of 40+ points on him, as well as five of 50+ (and even a high game of 62.) In addition, he had 17 40-30 games against him.

He also only won 2 rings compared to Russell's 11 and he did it while not being able to lead any of his teams in the playoffs regarding scoring. First he was Philly's 2nd best scorer in the playoffs and with the Lakers in '72 he was the fourth option on offense.. He never won during the years he put up amazing stats.. and nothing more:facepalm

[jlauber]

Overrate his competition a little more, Jbieber.

Embry was a 6'8 center who over his career averaged 12.5 points per game on 44% shooting and do what you always do, blame it on the era. The dude was a poor rebounder too for playing in that era. Statwise he is not better than some decent power forward with worse FG% and we all can be sure that he skillwise ain't no where close to the forwards-centers of today.


Reed and Bellamy played on the same team in '67, they were so amazing together that they and their Knick team collected 36 wins over the whole year, haha..:facepalm

And personally I'd be so scared to play Thurmond in '67, the guy was a beast... who only made 43% of shots..:facepalm

And by then Russell wasn't in his prime anymore..

AMAZING COMPETITION!



He also only won 2 rings compared to Russell's 11 and he did it while not being able to lead any of his teams in the playoffs regarding scoring. First he was Philly's 2nd best scorer in the playoffs and with the Lakers in '72 he was the fourth option on offense.. He never won during the years he put up amazing stats.. and nothing more:facepalm

Of course, Wilt didn't have the luxury of getting a near quad double against the likes of toothpick Manute Bol, who would have fouled out in the first five minutes trying to guard Wilt, nor guys like a bunch of stiffs who couldn't play center on the 90's Bucks.

His stat line against those clowns likely would have been 30-30-15-15, and on 75% shooting.

As for leading his team's in scoring...how many times did your boy Hakeem lead the league in scoring (33.5 ppg), rebounding (24.6 rpg), setting a FG% mark at the time (.540 ) all of which were better than ANY of Olajuwon's seasons...as well, as 5.2 apg, and at the same time, taking his team to the BEST RECORD in the league?

Let's face reality here. Hakeem's career is marked by six games against Robinson in one title-winning season, and another seven games against Ewing, who had a worse team. BTW, Robinson basically matched Hakeem in their other 42 H2H games, except outshooting Hakeem by a .488 to .441 margin...and leading his Spurs to a 30-12 record against them.

As for beating a young Shaq? PLEEZE. Shaq, like a 38 year-old Kareem before him, scored AT WILL against him. .595 shooting (to shot-jacking Hakeem's .483) while barely being outscored, and then outrebounding, and outblocking him. Not quite as impressive as pouring in THREE 40+ point games against Hakeem as a 38 year old Kareem did...and in one season, on a mind-numbing .634 FG%...well, a PRIME Kareem would have probably been scoring 50+ in three quarters nightly on him, and on 75% shooting.

Chamberlain, in the twilight of his career, held a PRIME Kareem to .464 shooting (while shooting 53% himself), as well as outrebounding him...which was nearly 100 points under Kareem's career FG% of .559. BTW, Kareem, from age 38 thru 41, shot a laughable .599 against a PRIME Hakeem. Oh, and a PRIME Shaq just pummelled a 36 year old Hakeem in the '99 playoffs. Wilt, at the same age, was holding a PRIME Kareem to .450 shooting in six regular season games, and shooting .737 in the process.

One can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain would have brought to the table.

In the meantime, while Wilt was winning FOUR MVPs, and arguably SHOULD have won at least a couple more...Hakeem won exactly ONE, in a season in which MJ took off. Not only that, Wilt was finishing 3rd and 4th in his LAST TWO seasons. How about Hakeem. He had ONE other season in which he finished SECOND, and TWO in which in he finished in the Top-4! In fact, he was only in the Top-TEN in NINE of his EIGHTEEN seasons.

And unlike Wilt, who played on FOUR 60+ win teams, Hakeem NEVER played on one, nor was he ever part of the best record in the league. Of course, even more of an embarrassment was the FACT that Hakeem was part of EIGHT FIRST ROUND playoff exits. Name another great who can match that "feat."

[jlauber]

As for Wil's playoff scoring...how many 38.6 ppg post-season series did Hakeem have (and with 23.0 rpg and shooting .559)? Did Hakeem ever have FOUR 30+ ppg post-seasons? Where are the FOUR 50+ point games that Hakeem might have had in HIS post-seasons (and one of them against the likes of Russell)? Did Hakeem have FOUR 30-20+ post-seasons? Did he have SIX 28-20+ post-seasons? How about EIGHT 20-20+ post-seasons? And while Hakeem shot .488 in his 17 Finals games, Chamberlain shot .560 in his 35. Oh, give me the number of Finals where Hakeem averaged 29-27 .520, and against the caliber of center like Russell? Or how about a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .625 FINALS? How many post-seasons did Hakeem average 9.2 apg, or even 6.5 apg? How many TRIPLE-DOUBLE playoff series did Hakeem have? Wilt had TWO. BTW, how about the 13-0 edge that Wilt had over Hakeem in 20 rpg post-seasons?

How about a 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.2 apg, .579 post-season, which included easily outrebounding both HOFers Thurmond and Russell, and holding them to .343 and .358 shooting respectively?

[Fatal9]

it's shocking how much of an insecure ******* you are.

[jlauber]

Dickwad...

Hakeem has NO business being mentioned in the same breath as Russell, Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt.

He is in the next tier, with Robinson (who really outplayed him in the vast majority of their H2H's), and Moses, who was clearly regarded as a more dominant player by his own PEERS (THREE MVPs to ONE by Hakeem.)

[jlauber]

it's shocking how much of an insecure ******* you are.

Yes, I agree...Millwad is.

[zay_24]

Yep...Wilt was lucky to have only faced guys like five-time all-star Zelmo Beaty, multiple all-star Wayne Embry, 6-9 multiple all-star Red Kerr, 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond, 6-9 HOFer Willis Reed, 6-9 HOFer Elvin Hayes, 6-7 HOFer Wes Unseld, 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier, 6-9 HOFer Dave Cowens, 6-8 HOFer Jerry Lucas, 6-10 HOFer Bill Russell, and 7-2 HOFer Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. In addition he routinely battled 7-0 270 lb. Tom Boerwinkle, 7-0 Mel Counts, 7-0 Hank Finkel, 7-0 Walter Dukes, and even 7-3 Swede Holbrook. And there another dozen or so 6-11 players he fought in his era, as well. AND, players were measure BARE-FOOT in that era...so you could easily add an inch to almost everyone of them by using TODAY's measuring in SHOES.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[millwad]

Dickwad...

Hakeem has NO business being mentioned in the same breath as Russell, Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt.

He is in the next tier, with Robinson (who really outplayed him in the vast majority of their H2H's), and Moses, who was clearly regarded as a more dominant player by his own PEERS (THREE MVPs to ONE by Hakeem.)

Haha, you're so pathetic.
It's so sad to see an old fart like you get this upset..
Where did I even write about Hakeem in this thread to start with? This only proves that you're an idiot, going off topic in your own thread is major fail...:facepalm

It's funny, everyone mentions Hakeem along with Russell, Kareem, Shaq and Wilt but you, don't be so butthurt...

Yes, he is really in the next tier with guys like Robinson.. Especially since he lead his team to back to backs and he dominated way more than what Wilt did during his championshipruns.. Wilt was the 2nd best scorer of the '67 Philly team and pathetic 4th option on offense in '72. Lets face it, Wilt didn't was a statpadder and had to have all-time greats and multiple all-stars to win while Hakeem had Maxwell as his 2nd best scorer..:facepalm

Wilt wasn't even the best center in the game in '72, Kareem was and he abused Wilt in the regular season putting up 40 points on him as an average and Wilt in '72 is considered by many to be at his best regarding his defense. And then Kareem outscored Wilt by amazing 23 points A GAME in the playoffs on better FG%, how embarrassing isn't that when this was during the year he got his 2nd ring... Oh, but I forgot, Wilt "schooled" Kareem in '72...:facepalm

[millwad]

Yes, I agree...Millwad is.

That was directed to you, and I agree with Fatal...
Obviously you're just a sad person, your obsession is just pathetic considering the fact that the guy played basketball 50 years ago. We all know you haven't seen the games you always spam about and I even doubt you even saw any of his later games. You're the same idiot who first said that players in the later era's were better than the guys of Wilt's era and suddenly like 3 years ago (40 years after the actual games took part) you changed your mind and started to spam about the greatness of the likes of Zelmo Beaty and how those guys would crush the players of today..:facepalm

Don't be so butthurt, Jlauber, seriously. Relax, just because I comment something about Wilt you don't have to try to make a big comeback with dissing Hakeem, how childish isn't that..

"Oh, you made a less positive comment about my lover Wilt, now I have to get back to you by dissing Hakeem" - Jlauber:facepalm

It's basketball, I don't care if you don't like Hakeem and do you think I really get upset when you diss Hakeem everytime I write about Wilt? Seriously?

You're so lame, going off-topic in your own thread just because you're so butthurt...:hammerhead:

[senelcoolidge]

Everyone wants to say that their generation is the best. Dumb kids today think the NBA was nothing before 2000. Other guys think the 90's was the best era. Sure the game has evolved through the years because of great players. But some players are great regardless of what time they played. Some guys are just way ahead of their times. The competition was very great in the NBA going way back..and it's still great today. Styles have changed and new rules implemented. My opinion the game today makes it much easier to score and get stats. Players today get away with a lot. Wilt is probably the best example of someone that would clearly dominate in the league today as he did in his era. Especially in how lackluster centers are in the league today.

[Rnbizzle]

These topics.. :facepalm

[PHILA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpufnh4fmRk#t=2m20s


"He does not merely dominate games. His achievements shatter previous concepts of stardom."

[TheAnchorman]

I would take Kareem, TODAY, over Bogut.
Dude you are so delusional it hurts.

[Psileas]

I'll ignore the usual battles that lead nowhere and I'll answer the original question: Anywhere between 20 and 40 quadruple-doubles (probably closer to the second figure), including even small streaks in 1967 and 1968. He posted 2/3rds of his triple-doubles in these two seasons and I'd be willing to bet his blocking averages in these two seasons would be his career's highest, along with the ones in his first 2-3 seasons. I consider 8 as a minimum, given what I've accumulated.

It looks to me like most star players post their best shot blocking (and steals) numbers in games where they already post incredible all-around numbers. Their activity just peaks in such games. For example, Hakeem was averaging 28.6/15.5/5.1/2.9/52.8% FG in his double-digit shot-blocking games. David Robinson, 29.5/13.0/3.6/2.1/60.2% FG. Kareem was at 26.6/17.6, and that's without 1970-73. Shaq was a bit more "normal" at the games when he posted 8+ blocks, but he still was at 27.4/17.1. Wilt himself had higher numbers than his averages in the games where he allegedly got 10+ blocks and I don't doubt he'd remain so if we were to know all his 10+ blocks games.

BTW, I estimate Wilt's actual triple-double number to be around 10 times higher than his QD's, anywhere between 200 and 400.

[eliteballer]

Go watch a game from the 60's and see all the crap shots being tossed up there at a ridiculous pace and you'll see how there were so many rebounds to be had.

Baylor at 6-5 averaged 20 rebounds one year.

I dont remember when goaltending became an official rule either.......

[millwad]

Go watch a game from the 60's and see all the crap shots being tossed up there at a ridiculous pace and you'll see how there were so many rebounds to be had.

Baylor at 6-5 averaged 20 rebounds one year.

I dont remember when goaltending became an official rule either.......

That's why I don't respect some of the old players with crazy rebounding stats.. They played more possessions as an average compared to the later era's and the player's tried alot of stupid field goal attempts which is why a great majority of the players in Wilt's era shot with such a low FG%..

The average player back then was less skilled as well which is also a reason why they shot with lower FG%..

[Psileas]

Go watch a game from the 60's and see all the crap shots being tossed up there at a ridiculous pace and you'll see how there were so many rebounds to be had.

Baylor at 6-5 averaged 20 rebounds one year.

I dont remember when goaltending became an official rule either.......

Haven't we discussed these things already? Sorry, but, in all likelyhood, both Wilt and Russell had career rebounding rates between 20 and 21. That's very high, regardless of available rebounds (actually probably more so than a 20-21 rate at a slower game, with 80-85 available rebounds instead of a fast game with 120-130).
Yes, Baylor had a 20 rpg season. And Shawn Marion had a 12 rpg season, with way less rebounds available. So? Let's not even go to Rodman, right?

Yes, goaltending did exist. If it didn't how would teams average 110-120 ppg when playing against Wilt's and Russell's teams? Both should have no problems deflecting like 30-40 shots per game if goaltending didn't exist.

[eliteballer]

Rate cant be compared because we arent JUST talking about pace. They weren't playing the same caliber of competition. I'm not talking about just centers because they played quality centers.

I'm talking about forwards and guards, when you consider length, athletic ability etc. In general, it was far easier for them to gobble up rebounds when compared to ALL players on the court then vs now.

It's not disrespect, its keeping things in perspective.

[Psileas]

Rate cant be compared because we arent JUST talking about pace. They weren't playing the same caliber of competition. I'm not talking about just centers because they played quality centers.

I'm talking about forwards and guards, when you consider length, athletic ability etc. In general, it was far easier for them to gobble up rebounds when compared to ALL players on the court then vs now.

It's not disrespect, its keeping things in perspective.

Remember the argument that Wilt and Russell were blocking "small, unathletic" guards and forwards? Well, you'll have to consider that guards and forwards were the main rebound grabbers after a blocked shot, and there were lots of these blocked shots back then.

You also don't account for the fact that the game was played closer to the basket on average than nowadays. Today, most guards play at the perimeter, 20-25 feet and beyond, giving the big guys more room to operate. You wouldn't find lots of players back then shooting from 25 feet.

If it was so easy to grab a rebound for a big man back then, why were only Wilt and Russell the ones who had so high %'s? Why couldn't other strong players like Willis Reed or Bellamy or later Elvin Hayes get there? Why were rebounding rate leaders having slightly inferior rates compared to modern ones? They shouldn't. In fact, every great center should have averages of 20+ rpg, rates of 17+, etc.

[EricForman]

Eliteballer is like a seriously good poster WHEN going at the Lauber and Psileas. anywhere else dude is the pioneering Kobe troll. He was the Elgin Baylor to Nick Young/Logo/Alphawolf/Kauii's Doctor J and Jordan

[eliteballer]

Its not as if perimeter players were mixing it up inside more then they are now. Especially when you consider slashing is a bigger part of the game now.

Reed and Bellamy played TOGETHER for years, and those guys didnt have the physical advantages that Wilt and Russell did, advantages which wouldnt be as great in later eras.

I mean Thurmond, Lucas, and Pettit also have 20 rpg average seasons. It's not as special as it seems at first glance.

[eliteballer]

Eliteballer is like a seriously good poster WHEN going at the Lauber and Psileas. anywhere else dude is the pioneering Kobe troll. He was the Elgin Baylor to Nick Young/Logo/Alphawolf/Kauii's league of Kobe trolls (that have been shut down thanks to l0ngcat :oldlol: :oldlol: )

I've been posting quality on these boards faaaar longer than you clown.

[jlauber]

Go watch a game from the 60's and see all the crap shots being tossed up there at a ridiculous pace and you'll see how there were so many rebounds to be had.

Baylor at 6-5 averaged 20 rebounds one year.

I dont remember when goaltending became an official rule either.......

I have posted the actual research before, so I won't bother looking it up now, but BOTH offensive and defensive goal-tending were illegal BEFORE Chamberlain joined the NBA.

As for rebounding numbers...yes, they were higher. How much? Today's levels are about at 70% of the PEAK rebounding seasons (early 60's.) And, please don't use the TEAM totals in any calculations...because TEAM REBOUNDS were counted in the TOTALS, and that stat was discontinued before the 72-73 season.

However, we don't have a large number of full box scorese available, but in Wilt's '67 ECF's, and against Russell, in game one, Wilt outrebounded Russell, 32-15, and grabbed those 32 out of a TOTAL of 120 rebounds. In the clinching game five win, Wilt outrebounded Russell, 36-21, and those rebounds came out of a TOTAL of 128. And, in game three, Russell had 29 rebounds...while Wilt had a playoff record 41...out of a TOTAL of 134 available. All three of Wilt's games were right around 30%. And, given the fact that Russell and Wilt usually were their team's leading rebounders, I have often wondered how many rebounds were available in the game in which Wilt outrebounded Russell, 55-19?

Incidently, in Wilt's LAST season, the NBA removed TEAM rebounds from their rebounding totals. A 36 year-old Wilt not only led the NBA (by nearly two per game over the likes of Thurmond, Kareem, Unseld, Hayes, and Cowens), he averaged 18.6 in a league that averaged 50.6. THEN, in the playoffs, and as ALWAYS, Chamberlain once again ELEVATED his rebounding, grabbing 22.5 rpg in his 17 playoff games. BTW, he outrebounded Thurmond in the WCF's, 23.6 to 17.2 rpg.

And, yes, the 6-5 Baylor grabbed 19.8 rpg one season. In that season, Baylor's numbers, at current levels, would be about 13-14 rpg. Is that unbelievable? How come the 6-5 Charles Barkley could get 14 rpg one season?

And, as Psileas pointed out, it was really ONLY Wilt and Russell who were dominating in that department. Take those two out of the equation, and there were a TOTAL of FOUR 20-21 rpg seasons in NBA history! Pettit had a 20.2 rpg season, and Thurmond had a 21.3 rpg season (and another part-time season of 22.) Jerry Lucas had TWO of 20 and 21 rpg, Is that hard to believe that a 6-8 white guy could grab 20 rpg, which would be around 14 rpg at today's levels? How about the 6-9 white Kevin Love grabbing 15 rpg LAST season?

BTW, height is only one part of rebounding. If height were the primary factor, then there would have been a 7-3+ center leading the NBA in rebounding...which, of course, NEVER happened. In fact, take Wilt out of the equation, and there have only been a small number of seven-footers who have led the NBA in rebounding. My god, 6-7 Ben Wallace was getting 15 rpg in the mid 00's. And we all know that the 6-8 Rodman just abused guys like Robinson, Shaq, and Hakeem. BTW, when Hakeem and Barkley were paired together on the same team, Barkley outrebounded Hakeem by FOUR per GAME.

[Psileas]

Its not as if perimeter players were mixing it up inside more then they are now. Especially when you consider slashing is a bigger part of the game now.

Reed and Bellamy played TOGETHER for years, and those guys didnt have the physical advantages that Wilt and Russell did, advantages which wouldnt be as great in later eras.

I mean Thurmond, Lucas, and Pettit also have 20 rpg average seasons. It's not as special as it seems at first glance.

Yes, slashing is a bigger part of the game now. However, plays close to the basket don't including just slashing. How were Wilt and Russell supposed to block all these "unathletic" guards? Not by having them shoot from the perimeter.

Reed and Bellamy played seperately more than they played together and this didn't change their numbers dramatically. If you, btw, admit that they didn't enjoy enough physical advantages to be dominant enough, you admit that the league was stronger than some people think, except if you try to claim that Reed and Bellamy were not as gifted as our eyes see...That Reed wasn't built like a bull, that he didn't have a warrior's spirit, that Bellamy wasn't 7 feet tall with shoes on and wasn't pretty athletic. It's not bad to admt the first, btw. After all, they still had to play 1/4 of their games against Wilt or Russell.

These 3 guys you mentioned had a total of 4 such seasons, iirc, all in the lower 20's. If you do the math, these seasons would qualify as really good, but not "all-time" material (except Thurmond in '68). Most "all-time" greatest performances would belong to more modern players, with Wilt and Russell being exceptions.

[eliteballer]

I have posted the actual research before, so I won't bother looking it up now, but BOTH offensive and defensive goal-tending were illegal BEFORE Chamberlain joined the NBA.

As for rebounding numbers...yes, they were higher. How much? Today's levels are about at 70% of the PEAK rebounding seasons (early 60's.) And, please don't use the TEAM totals in any calculations...because TEAM REBOUNDS were counted in the TOTALS, and that stat was discontinued before the 72-73 season.

However, we don't have a large number of full box scorese available, but in Wilt's '67 ECF's, and against Russell, in game one, Wilt outrebounded Russell, 32-15, and grabbed those 32 out of a TOTAL of 120 rebounds. In the clinching game five win, Wilt outrebounded Russell, 36-21, and those rebounds came out of a TOTAL of 128. And, in game three, Russell had 29 rebounds...while Wilt had a playoff record 41...out of a TOTAL of 134 available. All three of Wilt's games were right around 30%. And, given the fact that Russell and Wilt usually were their team's leading rebounders, I have often wondered how many rebounds were available in the game in which Wilt outrebounded Russell, 55-19?

Incidently, in Wilt's LAST season, the NBA removed TEAM rebounds from their rebounding totals. A 36 year-old Wilt not only led the NBA (by nearly two per game over the likes of Thurmond, Kareem, Unseld, Hayes, and Cowens), he averaged 18.6 in a league that averaged 50.6. THEN, in the playoffs, and as ALWAYS, Chamberlain once again ELEVATED his rebounding, grabbing 22.5 rpg in his 17 playoff games. BTW, he outrebounded Thurmond in the WCF's, 23.6 to 17.2 rpg.

And, yes, the 6-5 Baylor grabbed 19.8 rpg one season. In that season, Baylor's numbers, at current levels, would be about 13-14 rpg. Is that unbelievable? How come the 6-5 Charles Barkley could get 14 rpg one season?

And, as Psileas pointed out, it was really ONLY Wilt and Russell who were dominating in that department. Take those two out of the equation, and there were a TOTAL of FOUR 20-21 rpg seasons in NBA history! Pettit had a 20.2 rpg season, and Thurmond had a 21.3 rpg season (and another part-time season of 22.) Jerry Lucas had TWO of 20 and 21 rpg, Is that hard to believe that a 6-8 white guy could grab 20 rpg, which would be around 14 rpg at today's levels? How about the 6-9 white Kevin Love grabbing 15 rpg LAST season?

BTW, height is only one part of rebounding. If height were the primary factor, then there would have been a 7-3+ center leading the NBA in rebounding...which, of course, NEVER happened. In fact, take Wilt out of the equation, and there have only been a small number of seven-footers who have led the NBA in rebounding. My god, 6-7 Ben Wallace was getting 15 rpg in the mid 00's. And we all know that the 6-8 Rodman just abused guys like Robinson, Shaq, and Hakeem. BTW, when Hakeem and Barkley were paired together on the same team, Barkley outrebounded Hakeem by FOUR per GAME.


I'm not saying he wasnt a great rebounder or wouldn't be one TODAY, but the fact of the matter is his numbers WOULD be lower. It's logic and common sense. You say OH MY GOD CHAMBERLAIN OUTREBOUNDED RUSSELL BY 10 BOARDS...yet remember Russell himself is getting 30

I like how you adjust Baylor's numbers to today to make them seem realistic yet act as if Chamberlain's raw numbers are what should be compared to today...............

Sorry, but when I see a young twig Kareem block a 300 pound Laker Wilt Dunk at point bank range I'm not inclined to believe he walked on water.

[jlauber]

That's why I don't respect some of the old players with crazy rebounding stats.. They played more possessions as an average compared to the later era's and the player's tried alot of stupid field goal attempts which is why a great majority of the players in Wilt's era shot with such a low FG%..

The average player back then was less skilled as well which is also a reason why they shot with lower FG%..

That's why Kareem shot about 45% against Wilt in his 80+ H2H games against both of them...and nearly 60%, on average, against the players of the 80's...including one Hakeem, who he had an entire SEASON of 33 ppg on a staggering .634 percentage. In fact, Kareem, at ages 38 thru 41 shot .599 against Hakeem.

The REAL reason players shot worse. One, defense. Lanes were packed. Two, the BALL. It was not uniform until about 1970 (and there are photos of bald basketballs, and given what I often played with, there were probably lop-sided ones as well.) Three, the buildings were often frigid, and even breezy. And four, the scheduling was BRUTAL. Wilt played five games in five night as one point, and none of the home games were B2B.

Bill Sharman shot .932 from the line in the late 50's. In fact, FT% has remained pretty constant since the 50's. It was even higher in the 80's. I guess the NBA in the 80's must have had more skilled players, as FG%'s declined afterwards. Hakeem's HIGH season came in his ROOKIE season, and to no surprise, it occurred in a league that shot .492. In the decade of the 80s, CENTERS were routinely shooting WAY over their career averages. Gilmore had a SLEW of seasons between .626 and .670. Kareem had EIGHT seasons of .564 or higher, and FOUR higher than at his peak in the 70's.

Jerry West, who had the perfect jump shot, shot .419 and .445 in his first two seasons. How come? John Havlicked had eight seasons in the 60's, and eight seasons in the 70's. Guess what, he shot in EVERY season in the 70's than what was his best in the 60's. I could, and have, pointed out the MANY players who shot much better in the late 60's and early 70's, than what they did in the early 60's. My god, Baylor shot .486 after surgery and in the late 60's, and he had a seaon of .401 in the early 60's. CLEARLY, there were OTHER factors at play than just being "less skilled."

[jlauber]

I'm not saying he wasnt a great rebounder or wouldn't be one TODAY, but the fact of the matter is his numbers WOULD be lower. It's logic and common sense. You say OH MY GOD CHAMBERLAIN OUTREBOUNDED RUSSELL BY 10 BOARDS...yet remember Russell himself is getting 30

I like how you adjust Baylor's numbers to today to make them seem realistic yet act as if Chamberlain's raw numbers are what should be compared to today...............

Sorry, but when I see a young twig Kareem block a 300 pound Laker Wilt Dunk at point bank range I'm not inclined to believe he walked on water.

I have LONG maintained that a PRIME Wilt, and reducing his numbers down to current levels, would be a 17-18 rpg center. Of course, given the fact that he outrebounded EVERYBODY, and ELEVATED his rebounding in the post-season (he had post-seasons of 27, 29, and even 30 rpg)... his numbers COULD have been even higher.

As for the Kareem comment...too bad we didn't see a younger, more athletic Wilt against him. And, even in the mid-60's, Wilt was around 280+ lbs, and was among the strongest athletes in the world. Given his incredible athleticism in the mid-60's, I am convinced that he would have hung 40+ games on Kareem, just like he did on everyone else in that decade.

[Psileas]

Sorry, but when I see a young twig Kareem block a 300 pound Laker Wilt Dunk at point bank range I'm not inclined to believe he walked on water.

It's not a matter of total power alone. Manute Bol was blocking dunk attempts from point blank range and he was the biggest twig of them all.

The famous play vs the Magic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaLCju0CQ3c

His 4th block is against Stanley Roberts, who was like 300 lbs. See, Roberts didn't jump from the most correct angle to dunk, but he did use both his hands and Bol still was able to change the direction of both his hands.

I know that Kareem play and it was impressive, but, if I remember the play correctly, its most reasonable explanation is that Kareem blocked Wilt's shot at a point high enough not to allow Wilt take out all his force - the same way that you can take less serious damage from a hit if you manage to reduce the distance between you and the opponent's hand.

[eliteballer]

Yes, slashing is a bigger part of the game now. However, plays close to the basket don't including just slashing. How were Wilt and Russell supposed to block all these "unathletic" guards? Not by having them shoot from the perimeter.

Reed and Bellamy played seperately more than they played together and this didn't change their numbers dramatically. If you, btw, admit that they didn't enjoy enough physical advantages to be dominant enough, you admit that the league was stronger than some people think, except if you try to claim that Reed and Bellamy were not as gifted as our eyes see...That Reed wasn't built like a bull, that he didn't have a warrior's spirit, that Bellamy wasn't 7 feet tall with shoes on and wasn't pretty athletic. It's not bad to admt the first, btw. After all, they still had to play 1/4 of their games against Wilt or Russell.

These 3 guys you mentioned had a total of 4 such seasons, iirc, all in the lower 20's. If you do the math, these seasons would qualify as really good, but not "all-time" material (except Thurmond in '68). Most "all-time" greatest performances would belong to more modern players, with Wilt and Russell being exceptions.

Reed and Bellamy were gifted but NOT AS gifted as Chamberlain or Russell. Bellamy spent years with Reed, and looking just now in Baltimore he was on teams with TWO OTHER double digit rebounders. Same goes for Wilt a couple of times. Bill Bridges is averaging 15 rebounds a game. Thurmond averaged 18 a game on the SAME TEAM AS CHAMBERLAIN. Russell also seems to be the only good rebounder on most of his squads. I am NOT arguing if they were great rebounders. I am arguing that they WOULD not be averaging 22 rebounds a game in the modern era.

[eliteballer]

It's not a matter of total power alone. Manute Bol was blocking dunk attempts from point blank range and he was the biggest twig of them all.

The famous play vs the Magic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaLCju0CQ3c

His 4th block is against Stanley Roberts, who was like 300 lbs. See, Roberts didn't jump from the most correct angle to dunk, but he did use both his hands and Bol still was able to change the direction of both his hands.

I know that Kareem play and it was impressive, but, if I remember the play correctly, its most reasonable explanation is that Kareem blocked Wilt's shot at a point high enough not to allow Wilt take out all his force - the same way that you can take less serious damage from a hit if you manage to reduce the distance between you and the opponent's hand.


Again, your missing the point. No one is saying stanley roberts could lift a dump truck or whatever ridiculous legends exist of wilt.

[jlauber]

Reed and Bellamy were gifted but NOT AS gifted as Chamberlain or Russell. Bellamy spent years with Reed, and looking just now in Baltimore he was on teams with TWO OTHER double digit rebounders. Same goes for Wilt a couple of times. Bill Bridges is averaging 15 rebounds a game. Thurmond averaged 18 a game on the SAME TEAM AS CHAMBERLAIN. Russell also seems to be the only good rebounder on most of his squads. I am NOT arguing if they were great rebounders. I am arguing that they WOULD not be averaging 22 rebounds a game in the modern era.

Of course they would not be averaging 22 rpg today. And we have no way of really knowing how they fare today, either. BUT, there are no formulas that exist that would show that Wilt and Russell would be around 12-13 rpp guys, either. The league was not being played at TWICE the pace of the current NBA. Scoring today is about 85% of what it was in the PEAK of the 60's, and rebounding is at about 70%. Again, at the PEAK levels of the 60's. By 1969, the NBA was averaging 112 ppg, down from the peak of 119. And once again, in Wilt's LAST season, 72-73, the NBA averaged 50.6...so today's NBA would be at about 80%. And Wilt was 36 at the time, and well past his prime. He averaged 18.6 rpg that season, and THEN, in 17 playoff games, he averaged 22.5 rpg. BTW, that was the LAST time a player ever averaged 20+ rpg in the playoffs. In fact, Kareem's 17.3 rpg in the '77 playoffs is the next highest.

[eliteballer]

ABA started siphoning off half the professional talent in 1968 while the NBA itself doubled its number of teams within a few years. Dilution is an understatement. There were LESS professional tams in 1977 than there were in 1972!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLe-ZSAHsk

Chamberlain and Russell in their primes going at each other. I'll let the footage speak for itself.

[Asukal]

Look guys, no disrespect to Wilt and the greats of the 60s but they were simply ahead of their time. Of course they would probably be great playing in any era but their stats are all inflated. Simply watch a footage of 60s basketball, the skill level is not comparable to the players from the 80s or even the 70s. Just watch, you don't need to see the stats to judge their skill level. Some aspects of the game are as high as today's like shooting, but their dribbling style, the athleticism, the complexity of plays are a couple of notches below compared to now.

[HylianNightmare]

Kareem = poor mans Andrew Bogut
:rockon: clearly you are like 14

[BlackJoker23]

Kareem = poor mans Andrew Bogut
wilt=poor man's javale mcgee
russell=homeless man's joel anthony
60s=overrated trash. jlauber=phucking moron

[juju151111]

I'm not saying he wasnt a great rebounder or wouldn't be one TODAY, but the fact of the matter is his numbers WOULD be lower. It's logic and common sense. You say OH MY GOD CHAMBERLAIN OUTREBOUNDED RUSSELL BY 10 BOARDS...yet remember Russell himself is getting 30

I like how you adjust Baylor's numbers to today to make them seem realistic yet act as if Chamberlain's raw numbers are what should be compared to today...............

Sorry, but when I see a young twig Kareem block a 300 pound Laker Wilt Dunk at point bank range I'm not inclined to believe he walked on water.
I agree with you about the overrated 60s stuff, but anyone can block players who way more. Wade blocked centers point blank.

[Psileas]

Reed and Bellamy were gifted but NOT AS gifted as Chamberlain or Russell. Bellamy spent years with Reed, and looking just now in Baltimore he was on teams with TWO OTHER double digit rebounders. Same goes for Wilt a couple of times. Bill Bridges is averaging 15 rebounds a game. Thurmond averaged 18 a game on the SAME TEAM AS CHAMBERLAIN. Russell also seems to be the only good rebounder on most of his squads. I am NOT arguing if they were great rebounders. I am arguing that they WOULD not be averaging 22 rebounds a game in the modern era.

I'm not claiming they would. If you go back to your first post, you're writing about the number of available rebounds. I just respond that Wilt's and Russell's rebounding would still look very impressive regardless of any adjustment (a rebounder with a 20-21% rate will still grab 14-15 rpg per 40 mpg, a number high enough to lead plenty of modern seasons or, at worst, be top-2 in any of them). The other great centers of their era were still very good rebounders, but their modern equivalent would be at around 11-12 rpg, which still puts Wilt and Russell at a category of their own. What's more impressive though is that both maintained similar rates throughout their whole careers, so imagine a modern player averaging 14 rpg for his whole career.


Again, your missing the point. No one is saying stanley roberts could lift a dump truck or whatever ridiculous legends exist of wilt.

You don't need myths to know that Roberts had 80-100 lbs on Bol (and sometimes more).

[eliteballer]

...do I REALLY need to spell this out?

I'm not using the raw Kareem blocking the strongest version of Wilt to say he wasn't great.

I'm using it to dispel the myths that he was some superhuman.

[Jon_Koncak]

Look guys, no disrespect to Wilt and the greats of the 60s but they were simply ahead of their time. Of course they would probably be great playing in any era but their stats are all inflated. Simply watch a footage of 60s basketball, the skill level is not comparable to the players from the 80s or even the 70s. Just watch, you don't need to see the stats to judge their skill level. Some aspects of the game are as high as today's like shooting, but their dribbling style, the athleticism, the complexity of plays are a couple of notches below compared to now.

their dribbling styles is the one of players trying not to carry the ball.Notice how they try to keep their palms facing the floor while dribbling.It's obvious that refs were more strict with carrying violations back then.

[Psileas]

Look guys, no disrespect to Wilt and the greats of the 60s but they were simply ahead of their time. Of course they would probably be great playing in any era but their stats are all inflated. Simply watch a footage of 60s basketball, the skill level is not comparable to the players from the 80s or even the 70s. Just watch, you don't need to see the stats to judge their skill level. Some aspects of the game are as high as today's like shooting, but their dribbling style, the athleticism, the complexity of plays are a couple of notches below compared to now.

Even if we go by this, why wouldn't Wilt and the others benefit from today's era's benefits if they had to play today? I'm pretty sure a guy like West and Oscar could acquire pretty great dribbling with today's practices. Hell, Oscar was among the first players ever to use a crossover dribble, just not as advanced as today's crossovers. And I'm even more sure that Wilt could barrel his way to throw dunks just like Shaq did.
Pace is the only thing that may inflate their stats, not competition. Wilt and Russell didn't use 2000's methods to become as great as they did, they used the same 1960's ones that everyone else could.

[Psileas]

...do I REALLY need to spell this out?

I'm not using the raw Kareem blocking the strongest version of Wilt to say he wasn't great.

I'm using it to dispel the myths that he was some superhuman.

Yes, elite, we got it - no, scratch it, we know it - he wasn't superhuman. Having taken this out of the way, he was still easily among the strongest players that ever lived and no blocked dunk is going to change this, much like Nate Robinson's block on Shaq didn't, either.

[millwad]

That's why Kareem shot about 45% against Wilt in his 80+ H2H games against both of them...and nearly 60%, on average, against the players of the 80's...including one Hakeem, who he had an entire SEASON of 33 ppg on a staggering .634 percentage. In fact, Kareem, at ages 38 thru 41 shot .599 against Hakeem.

I've heard many say that Wilt was at his best around '72 when it comes to defense, still Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting on him during the regular season of '72.

Wilt was way closer his defensive peak in '72 than what Hakeem was in his rookie season and in his 2nd pro season..:facepalm

And talking about FG%, this is where you often fail. Kareem in his last years as a lakers got assists from Magic and he wasn't the first option on offense and he didn't score as much. When you're not the main option on offense and your team is stacked with scorers and you play with the best point guard of all-time points are easier to make which leads to a better FG%. The same thing about Wilt, he made more than 70% of his FGA in his last NBA season but at his scoring peak he scored more than 3 times points per game but he missed 20% more of his FGA..



The REAL reason players shot worse. One, defense. Lanes were packed. Two, the BALL. It was not uniform until about 1970 (and there are photos of bald basketballs, and given what I often played with, there were probably lop-sided ones as well.) Three, the buildings were often frigid, and even breezy. And four, the scheduling was BRUTAL. Wilt played five games in five night as one point, and none of the home games were B2B.

Pure bullshit, you blame it on the ball, on the court, the building being breezy and the schedule but you can't admit that the players weren't as skilled as later era's.. What a moron..:facepalm

Hakeem's HIGH season came in his ROOKIE season, and to no surprise, it occurred in a league that shot .492. In the decade of the 80s, CENTERS were routinely shooting WAY over their career averages. Gilmore had a SLEW of seasons between .626 and .670. Kareem had EIGHT seasons of .564 or higher, and FOUR higher than at his peak in the 70's.

Obviously you didn't see Hakeem in his ROOKIE (capital letters, you are so lame) season. Hakeem camped in the post and almost all of his points came from inside the key after dunks and lay-ins and offensive rebounds. Hakeem was no where close his prime in terms of offense. He wasn't even close as doubled in his freaking rookie season as he was in his offensive prime, use you brain. Just look at Hakeem's FT% in his rookie season, only in his last NBA year he had a worse FT%, he was no where close his offensive prime and he couldn't even shot (still a better outside shooter than Wilt in his rookie season though):oldlol:...

Regarding Kareem's FG% I just made my point if you look up a little. The year Magic came around Kareem's FG% went up to a career high and he's FG% was still great to the age of 39 while even scoring alot and only an idiot wouldn't give Magic credit for alot of it..

[millwad]

Even if we go by this, why wouldn't Wilt and the others benefit from today's era's benefits if they had to play today? I'm pretty sure a guy like West and Oscar could acquire pretty great dribbling with today's practices. Hell, Oscar was among the first players ever to use a crossover dribble, just not as advanced as today's crossovers. And I'm even more sure that Wilt could barrel his way to throw dunks just like Shaq did.
Pace is the only thing that may inflate their stats, not competition. Wilt and Russell didn't use 2000's methods to become as great as they did, they used the same 1960's ones that everyone else could.

Psileas, maybe you don't see it but Jlauber is not doing you any good. Your posts are solid and it's obvious you put thought behind it even though we don't agree on alot of stuff. For long I just skipped reading your posts because I associated you with Jlauber, being associated with Jlauber is not exactly a good thing but I can't blame your for digging the same player as him..

And you made a good point, I've never stated that that the players of Wilt's era were just pure crap. Of course some, especially the athletic dominant of them would be amazing in this and every other era if they'd have the same opportunities as the later guys had. But since they didn't have the same opportunities the players of the later era's had it's not weird or a shame that they lack some in terms of skillset.

[millwad]

their dribbling styles is the one of players trying not to carry the ball.Notice how they try to keep their palms facing the floor while dribbling.It's obvious that refs were more strict with carrying violations back then.

Bullshit, so that is also why some guards of that era barely could dribble with their "wrong" hand? I've even seen all-star game warm-ups where every single player they showed used their right hand on a left side lay-up. I've seen enough footage of players who dribble with their right hand on the left side of the court which is enough to understand that the dribbling in terms of skillset wasn't as high as later era's..

[Hondo]

Thurmond was well past his prime when the NBA actually began to officially record blocks.

As for Wilt. In Rosen's book on the '72 Lakers, he had Wilt with one game of 15 blocks. Psileas posted an article which had some 40-50 games with Wilt's recorded blocks in '72, and I believe Chamberlain averaged over 7 bpg in that span. He also averaged 7.4 bpg in the Finals that season (thanks toThaRegul8r for that info.) This was a 35 year old Wilt, in his second to last season, and playing on a surgically repaired knee.

I have no idea how mant shots Russell blocked in his career, but he and Wilt are considered the two greatest shot blockers in NBA history.

Why are you so interested in Wilt stats when you weren't even alive then? You speak in absolute truths, but I'm certain I'm older than you. I don't comment on Russell, even though my dad watched basketball during that era, I stick to the late 70's Celtics and onwards. I post about what I know and have experienced first hand.

[millwad]

Why are you so interested in Wilt stats when you weren't even alive then? You speak in absolute truths, but I'm certain I'm older than you. I don't comment on Russell, even though my dad watched basketball during that era, I stick to the late 70's Celtics and onwards. I post about what I know and have experienced first hand.

He is 56 years old, I don't know if I believe that because a mancrush at that age is pretty odd and he is pretty obsessed about everything regarding Wilt.

And like 2-3 years ago on this site he used to admit that the players in this era are stronger, better trained, more skilled etc. but then he got insecure and changed his mind more than 40 years after he actually "saw" the games.

Even if he watched the games it's too long ago to remember a crap and when Wilt retired, Jlauber was according to himself 17 years old and I really wanna know how he "remembers" 39 year old basketball games..:facepalm

[Hondo]

If he is in fact 56 years old, then he would have been born in 1955. So he would have been 7 years old when Wilt was throwing down 50 point games like they were nothing.

I can't remember much from when I was 7, except for random things like falling out of a tree at my uncle's place, breaking my arm, or how beautiful I thought my teacher was. I certainly couldn't tell you basketball stats from 1970 (when I was 7). I do have a bit more knowledge of mid to late 70's games, because I started getting into collecting basketball cards and playing basketball with friends at school, and the games my dad and his friends were watching became more interesting to me.

Maybe jlauber is 56, and is who he says he is, he does come across like an adult student constantly with their hand raised, even when it doesn't need to be.

[Asukal]

Even if we go by this, why wouldn't Wilt and the others benefit from today's era's benefits if they had to play today? I'm pretty sure a guy like West and Oscar could acquire pretty great dribbling with today's practices. Hell, Oscar was among the first players ever to use a crossover dribble, just not as advanced as today's crossovers. And I'm even more sure that Wilt could barrel his way to throw dunks just like Shaq did.
Pace is the only thing that may inflate their stats, not competition. Wilt and Russell didn't use 2000's methods to become as great as they did, they used the same 1960's ones that everyone else could.

So if Wilt plays today and is in his prime and is given today's nutrition and training regimen he could average 50 ppg and 20+ rpg in a season? Because by your logic Wilt despite all the rule changes and evolution of the game can put up the same stats he did back in the 60s if he were to play today and in his prime against today's players. Not gonna happen bro and you know it.

Like I said just stop looking too much into stats and watch the games. The league in the 60s was simply too young at the time and therefore the stats of the greats of that era were inflated.

[Asukal]

If he is in fact 56 years old, then he would have been born in 1955. So he would have been 7 years old when Wilt was throwing down 50 point games like they were nothing.

I can't remember much from when I was 7, except for random things like falling out of a tree at my uncle's place, breaking my arm, or how beautiful I thought my teacher was. I certainly couldn't tell you basketball stats from 1970 (when I was 7). I do have a bit more knowledge of mid to late 70's games, because I started getting into collecting basketball cards and playing basketball with friends at school, and the games my dad and his friends were watching became more interesting to me.

Maybe jlauber is 56, and is who he says he is, he does come across like an adult student constantly with their hand raised, even when it doesn't need to be.

You know why Jlauber is annoying? Because he doesn't understand basketball apart from the stats. How can you respect someone who says one thing and then a couple of years later changes his mind after checking out the stats pad. He never makes an argument without mentioning stats and his 'my god, one could only imagine' line of Wilt.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Dickwad...

Hakeem has NO business being mentioned in the same breath as Russell, Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt.

He is in the next tier, with Robinson (who really outplayed him in the vast majority of their H2H's), and Moses, who was clearly regarded as a more dominant player by his own PEERS (THREE MVPs to ONE by Hakeem.)

this stuff about hakeem was a bunch of bullshit.

[millwad]

this stuff about hakeem was a bunch of bullshit.

Don't bother, he is so butthurt...
The guy is the most ignorant and stupid poster on this site, at least trolls are doing it for fun but Jlauber is just obsessed, brainwashed and stupid. The guy even thinks that Nate Thurmond is way better than Hakeem..:facepalm

[millwad]

You know why Jlauber is annoying? Because he doesn't understand basketball apart from the stats. How can you respect someone who says one thing and then a couple of years later changes his mind after checking out the stats pad. He never makes an argument without mentioning stats and his 'my god, one could only imagine' line of Wilt.

HAHA, spot on! He really thinks people find him more credible when he spams about his "my god, imagine..."..:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Psileas]

So if Wilt plays today and is in his prime and is given today's nutrition and training regimen he could average 50 ppg and 20+ rpg in a season? Because by your logic Wilt despite all the rule changes and evolution of the game can put up the same stats he did back in the 60s if he were to play today and in his prime against today's players. Not gonna happen bro and you know it.

Like I said just stop looking too much into stats and watch the games. The league in the 60s was simply too young at the time and therefore the stats of the greats of that era were inflated.

No, that's not my logic. My logic is that, trained under today's conditions, he'd put up the same levels of dominance (NOT same stats) with his era. I know how inflated or deflated the stats of each era were.
Every era had/has its own inflated stats. In the 60's and 70's it was pace and rebounding. In the 80's it was FG% and still pace (to a smaller degree). In the 90's it was (slightly) assists. In the 00's, it was and still is the #'s of shots taken by star players compared to shots taken by the rest of their teammates.

[AlphaWolf24]

Eliteballer is like a seriously good poster WHEN going at the Lauber and Psileas. anywhere else dude is the pioneering Kobe troll. He was the Elgin Baylor to Nick Young/Logo/Alphawolf/Kauii's Doctor J and Jordan

Dang son...al you do is call other posters names and post *******....



EliteBaller - I've been posting quality on these boards faaaar longer than you clown.

:roll: Owned..











next

[KingBeasley08]

stat padding in the weakest era of bball :sleeping :sleeping

at the end of the day, wilt got 2 rings in a sh*tty era :roll:

[Math2]

And what chance would a Chamberlain have in today's NBA, as well? My god, he was only 7-2 (and would be listed at 7-3 in shoes), with a 7-8 wingspan, 280-300+ lbs, with massive strength, amazing leaping ability, track speed, and 10-15 ft+ range, with a variety of post moves, and unbelieveable passing ability. Again, guys like 6-6 Chuck Hayes would be feasting on a helpless prime Wilt.

I'd bet a million dollars he's stronger than any NBA player in today's game...He would be stronger than at least half if he was still alive...I'd call him the strongest player ever to play.

[millwad]

I'd bet a million dollars he's stronger than any NBA player in today's game...He would be stronger than at least half if he was still alive...I'd call him the strongest player ever to play.

I'd call him the strongest person in the history of mankind!

[Math2]

Overrate his competition a little more, Jbieber.

Embry was a 6'8 center who over his career averaged 12.5 points per game on 44% shooting and do what you always do, blame it on the era. The dude was a poor rebounder too for playing in that era. Statwise he is not better than some decent power forward with worse FG% and we all can be sure that he skillwise ain't no where close to the forwards-centers of today.


Reed and Bellamy played on the same team in '67, they were so amazing together that they and their Knick team collected 36 wins over the whole year, haha..:facepalm

And personally I'd be so scared to play Thurmond in '67, the guy was a beast... who only made 43% of shots..:facepalm

And by then Russell wasn't in his prime anymore..

AMAZING COMPETITION!



SHot % doesn't tell you how good his D is.

[Math2]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Most of them would start today....

[Math2]

Haha, you're so pathetic.
It's so sad to see an old fart like you get this upset..
Where did I even write about Hakeem in this thread to start with? This only proves that you're an idiot, going off topic in your own thread is major fail...:facepalm

It's funny, everyone mentions Hakeem along with Russell, Kareem, Shaq and Wilt but you, don't be so butthurt...

Yes, he is really in the next tier with guys like Robinson.. Especially since he lead his team to back to backs and he dominated way more than what Wilt did during his championshipruns.. Wilt was the 2nd best scorer of the '67 Philly team and pathetic 4th option on offense in '72. Lets face it, Wilt didn't was a statpadder and had to have all-time greats and multiple all-stars to win while Hakeem had Maxwell as his 2nd best scorer..:facepalm

Wilt wasn't even the best center in the game in '72, Kareem was and he abused Wilt in the regular season putting up 40 points on him as an average and Wilt in '72 is considered by many to be at his best regarding his defense. And then Kareem outscored Wilt by amazing 23 points A GAME in the playoffs on better FG%, how embarrassing isn't that when this was during the year he got his 2nd ring... Oh, but I forgot, Wilt "schooled" Kareem in '72...:facepalm

1972....how old was he again? He's on his way out and still won a champ

[Math2]

That's why I don't respect some of the old players with crazy rebounding stats.. They played more possessions as an average compared to the later era's and the player's tried alot of stupid field goal attempts which is why a great majority of the players in Wilt's era shot with such a low FG%..

The average player back then was less skilled as well which is also a reason why they shot with lower FG%..

You don't respect Russell? He was an incredible boarder, compared to every 60s star.

[millwad]

SHot % doesn't tell you how good his D is.

Completely true, but I was talking Thurmond's offensive game. Even though he had a good ppg average he did it with extremely poor FG% and offense is 50% of the game.

[millwad]

You don't respect Russell? He was an incredible boarder, compared to every 60s star.

Learn to read, I meant that I don't respect their rebounding average as I would do if someone grabbed that many rebounsd in this era. And why? Read my original post.

We are talking about the same era where the 6-5 SF Elgin Baylor averaged 20 rebounds in one season..

[Math2]

Learn to read, I meant that I don't respect their rebounding average as I would do if someone grabbed that many rebounsd in this era. And why? Read my original post.

We are talking about the same era where the 6-5 SF Elgin Baylor averaged 20 rebounds in one season..

Do you not respect the 80s because of what Charles Barkley did? 14 boards?

[Asukal]

No, that's not my logic. My logic is that, trained under today's conditions, he'd put up the same levels of dominance (NOT same stats) with his era. I know how inflated or deflated the stats of each era were.
Every era had/has its own inflated stats. In the 60's and 70's it was pace and rebounding. In the 80's it was FG% and still pace (to a smaller degree). In the 90's it was (slightly) assists. In the 00's, it was and still is the #'s of shots taken by star players compared to shots taken by the rest of their teammates.

That is why I said the greats of the 60s would probably still be great playing in any era. I'm just saying that we shouldn't give them too much credit for their stats in comparison to more recent greats. :cheers:

[Math2]

Learn to read, I meant that I don't respect their rebounding average as I would do if someone grabbed that many rebounsd in this era. And why? Read my original post.

We are talking about the same era where the 6-5 SF Elgin Baylor averaged 20 rebounds in one season..

Russell's 23+ boards years are greater than any other season post Wilt....Just because their boards #s are higher because of the era doesn't mean you accredit to solely to the era...

[Math2]

I'd call him the strongest person in the history of mankind!

He could be considered the strongest player ever in sports. (With a ball)...

[Bone Machine]

Apparently Wilt's vertical leap was 52"

[PHILA]

He could be considered the strongest player ever in sports. (With a ball)...


Yes while he played a power/finesse game, he often would restrain himself from a potential fistfight.


Mar 6, 1969

http://i.imgur.com/z11bm.png

[Asukal]

Yes while he played a power/finesse game, he often would restrain himself from a potential fistfight.


Mar 6, 1969

http://i.imgur.com/z11bm.png

You think he can overpower Shaq? All those rumors of his inhuman strength yet nothing on video suggests it is true. Wilt's godly strength is a myth just like his claim to sleeping with 20000 women, it never happened.

[NugzHeat3]

Yes while he played a power/finesse game, he often would restrain himself from a potential fistfight.


Mar 6, 1969

http://i.imgur.com/z11bm.png
Not to derail the thread (well it was already derailed) but I'm curious and I'm sure you know about this. How much did Wilt weigh coming into the league and then during his time as a defensive stopper with LA?

I saw some footage. Because of his high waist, he seemed to have a high center of gravity and an improper balance of strength. Upperbody wasn't in proportion with the lower body; kind of like David Robinson and Dwight in that regard.

I've heard about his bench pressing abilities and whether they're true or not, it certainly does prove that Wilt worked on his arms and chest more so than his legs.

But he seems to have put on more muscle in the right spots in his Laker days. I'd imagine guys had a lot of trouble getting deep position or even moving him after he had planted in those days.

[Math2]

You think he can overpower Shaq? All those rumors of his inhuman strength yet nothing on video suggests it is true. Wilt's godly strength is a myth just like his claim to sleeping with 20000 women, it never happened.

Yep. I bet he could. Take Wilt in his prime and match him against Shaq, Wilt is stronger....Wilt could bench press MUCH more than Shaq. I believe he could press 450 lb in the 80s.

[NugzHeat3]

You think he can overpower Shaq? All those rumors of his inhuman strength yet nothing on video suggests it is true. Wilt's godly strength is a myth just like his claim to sleeping with 20000 women, it never happened.
Depends on which one you're talking about. I don't think Wilt early in his career can match Shaq's strength unless you're strictly looking at weight lifting.

I think Shaq was bulkier and had more lower body strength along with a lower center of gravity which is more important in establishing position but the Laker version of Wilt would be one of the best defensive players you could hope to put on him.

[PHILA]

Apparently Wilt's vertical leap was 52"
Not quite, though he could still get up at age 35.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzNMqC69qZc#t=5m48s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzNMqC69qZc#t=7m45s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzNMqC69qZc#t=7m45s)

[PHILA]

I think Shaq was bulkier and had more lower body strength along with a lower center of gravity which is more important in establishing position but the Laker version of Wilt would be one of the best defensive players you could hope to put on him.
Another difference being that Shaq had a wider body.



Not to derail the thread (well it was already derailed) but I'm curious and I'm sure you know about this. How much did Wilt weigh coming into the league and then during his time as a defensive stopper with LA?
I would guess 260 max. As a rookie he was skinny.

http://i.imgur.com/Ne3U1.jpg


The inside game: race, power, and politics in the NBA - Wayne Embry

http://i.imgur.com/gykGc.png





He also improved his strength in certain weight lifting exercises over the next several years.


Sports Illustrated - October 26, 1959 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1134161/index.htm)

The important thing is that he is also a strong, fast, well-coordinated athlete. Consider the following: he has run the quarter mile in 49 seconds flat, bettered 6 feet 7 in the high jump, put the shot 51 feet, can lift 265 pounds in the clean-and-jerk and 210 in the military press. For none of these feats did Chamberlain prepare himself through normal training; they were casual, offhand achievements by an athlete who has always devoted his free time and effort to basketball.


According to esteemed author Gary M. Pomerantz, Chamberlain could deadlift 625 lbs.

http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2005/edition_04-24-2005/featured_1



The Miami News - Nov 7, 1962 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1XYyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2OkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,2425147)

He can clean and jerk a 375-lb. weight, run the quarter mile in 47s, and high-jump over 6-11.


Sports Illustrated - March 2, 1964 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075691/2/index.htm)

The St. Louis Hawks' 6-foot-9, 240-pound Zelmo Beaty, for example, found out recently that he can no longer take Chamberlain's great strength for granted. Unable to slow Wilt down with conventional maltreatment, Beaty tried to yank his shorts off. Chamberlain, who can press 400 pounds without breathing hard, makes it a point to control his temper, primarily because he is genuinely afraid he might kill somebody. Beaty's unethical yank, however, was too much. Wilt flicked an arm, and Beaty flew across the floor like a man shot out of a cannon. Referee Mendy Rudolph rushed over to him and said: "For God's sake, stay down, man. Don't even twitch a muscle." Beaty didn't twitch, and he is still active in the NBA.



The Evening Independent - Jan 6, 1967 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=TSMoAAAAIBAJ&sjid=S1cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,911381&dq)

"I'd bet you $1,000 I could lift 1,000 pounds," the 76ers singular 7-1 center said, "I have. I've also hand-wrestled two men at the same time and beat them. And there's nothing I'd like to do better than play pro football."



I saw some footage. Because of his high waist, he seemed to have a high center of gravity and an improper balance of strength. Upperbody wasn't in proportion with the lower body; kind of like David Robinson and Dwight in that regard.
He did have great balance & couldn't be pushed around despite the "improper balance". The Wall Wayne Embry at 6'8 would give him good physical battles in the paint. He would often bring the ball down to gather himself for the power finish (like Shaq) and habitually would perform a quick fake just before going up in what seems to be anticipation of a hard foul. This may look like "poor coordination" to some fans, but I will point out that he is always under control. Some examples below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3jIemiXiPs#t=2m58s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3jIemiXiPs#t=2m58s)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ghbAYFouJA#t=1m47s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=1m55s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=4m50s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=9m20s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW5-PEx0n2E#t=21s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW5-PEx0n2E#t=4m10s


Even going up with two hands, he would slam it down with one. Embry & Havlicek think they've got Greer trapped in the corner, who makes a great pass to Wilt for the dunk. :pimp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=27m51s


http://i.imgur.com/URaWo.png





You are correct regarding Wilt's physical build. There is a reason some called him the Stilt.

http://i.imgur.com/uGrdU.jpg



I've heard about his bench pressing abilities and whether they're true or not, it certainly does prove that Wilt worked on his arms and chest more so than his legs.

But he seems to have put on more muscle in the right spots in his Laker days. I'd imagine guys had a lot of trouble getting deep position or even moving him after he had planted in those days.

By retirement he was roughly 315 lbs, which is the same weight he reported to Warriors camp at in '63. To me Wilt's strength & power was more graceful and effortless than Shaq, who loved to emphatically pound defenders. It appears that '00 Shaq (340 lbs) had a 20-25 lb advantage over '64 Wilt (315-320 lbs).





Meriden Journal - Sep 6, 1963 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CqxIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xwANAAAAIBAJ&pg=3715,469887&dq)

http://i.imgur.com/9hHKU.png



http://i.imgur.com/F8ayu.png
http://i.imgur.com/7Nkzu.png
http://i.imgur.com/YRmNb.png



Orlando Sentinel - Oct 31, 1999

He is bigger than ever now, a solid 340 pounds (at least 10 pounds heavier than last season) and has a Hungry Man appetite that demands immediate satisfaction.



Los Angeles Times - Oct 7, 1999

Whatever Coach Phil Jackson's requested weight for Shaquille O'Neal was, the center did not meet it--probably didn't even come close--when the Lakers were weighed after the morning practice Wednesday at UC Santa Barbara.

"The more I lift weights, the higher the number's going to be," O'Neal said. "I'm not really concerned about numbers. . . . I'll bust any big man's butt no matter what I weigh."

"I'm not unhappy about it," Jackson said. "He's shown he's in condition out there on the floor. That's the major goal, the guy's in condition so he can get up and down the court."

O'Neal, who has added muscle on his shoulders, said he came in at 340 pounds.

[asdf1990]

wilt had like 2000 quad doubles. I heard from an eye witness that wilt was so good he used to get 2-3 quad doubles in one game, yeah he was that good.

[Asukal]

Depends on which one you're talking about. I don't think Wilt early in his career can match Shaq's strength unless you're strictly looking at weight lifting.

I think Shaq was bulkier and had more lower body strength along with a lower center of gravity which is more important in establishing position but the Laker version of Wilt would be one of the best defensive players you could hope to put on him.

I'm not saying Wilt is weak, by all means he could possibly be the strongest player to play the game. All I'm saying is his feats of strength is greatly exaggerated because nothing on footage suggests they were true. I'm pretty sure Shaq could kill or seriously injure a man with just one blow to the head. Wilt claims he lifted 1000 pounds, that's bullshit.

[PHILA]

You think he can overpower Shaq? All those rumors of his inhuman strength yet nothing on video suggests it is true. Wilt's godly strength is a myth just like his claim to sleeping with 20000 women, it never happened.
No I believe it would be a great physical battle in the paint. Wilt had stronger wrists/forearms & longer arms while Shaq has quicker feet & stronger torso. While Wilt did indeed exaggerate some of the superhero feats, there is no question he would hold his own vs. Shaq, and vice versa.

[jlauber]

Its not as if perimeter players were mixing it up inside more then they are now. Especially when you consider slashing is a bigger part of the game now.

Reed and Bellamy played TOGETHER for years, and those guys didnt have the physical advantages that Wilt and Russell did, advantages which wouldnt be as great in later eras.

I mean Thurmond, Lucas, and Pettit also have 20 rpg average seasons. It's not as special as it seems at first glance.

Yes, Lucas had TWO 20+ rpg seasons. 21.0 and 20.2. Thurmond had one full time season of 21,3 rpg. And Pettit had one season of 20.2 rpg. Aside from Wilt and Russell...that was IT. FOUR seasons in which a player barely got 20 rpg. Meanwhile, Wilt and Russell have the Top-18 seasons of all-time. And both of them ELEVATED their numbers in the post-season. How about Rodman? He went from 13.8 rpg in his regular season career, down to 9.9 rpg in the post-season. His playoff high was 16 rpg in a three game series. Chamberlain had EIGHT post-seasons of 24.7 rpg, and with highs of 29 and 30. He even had a 32 rpg and 31 rpg series against Russell. In fact, he generally POUNDED ALL of his opposing centers. Thurmond, for all of his rebounding prowess, was basically helpless against Wilt (getting outrebounded in nearly every GAME in their 17 H2H battles.) Wilt outrebounded Russell by margins of 32-23 amd Thurmond by 24-17. Tom Boerwinkle, a 7-0 270 lber had a couple of seasons in which he had a higher rebound rate than Wilt. In the playoffs, Chamberlain just MURDERED him.

The bottom line...while it was obviously true that there were more rebounds to be had in the 60's (albeit they dwindled nearly every season), there was NOT a plethora of 20 rpg seasons.

And once again, in Wilt's LAST season, he LED the NBA (by nearly two rpg) with 18.6 rpg in a league that averaged 50.6 rpg. This was a 36 year old Wilt. Take a look at Kareem, Shaq, or Hakeem at age 36...and compare them with Wilt. THEN, Wilt dominated in the post-season (as he ALWAYS did), grabbing 22.5 rpg in his 17 playoff games. That was the LAST time ANY player EVER averaged 20+ rpg in the post-season. And even more amazing...the next highest post-season since was Kareem's 17.3 rpg in '77. So, in Chamberlain's LAST post-season, he put up numbers that were over FIVE rpg better than anyone since.

[Cangri]

No I believe it would be a great physical battle in the paint. Wilt had stronger wrists/forearms & longer arms while Shaq has quicker feet & stronger torso. While Wilt did indeed exaggerate some of the superhero feats, there is no question he would hold his own vs. Shaq, and vice versa.
You forgot to mention that Shaq's post skills were much better than Wilt's.

[jlauber]

Again, your missing the point. No one is saying stanley roberts could lift a dump truck or whatever ridiculous legends exist of wilt.

Where do these "myths" come from. Many people here call WILT a liar...and yet, the VAST majority of these "myths" have come from OTHER players, coaches, media, and even everyday people.

PHILA has already posted SEVERAL articles about Wilt's WIDELY ACCLAIMED strength and power. However, just google Wilt's strength, or bench press, and the internet is PLASTERED with FAR more. I am being very honest when I say I could post DOZENS, if not HUNDREDS of them here. And in ANY book, video, or article that goes into depth on Wilt, you will find page-after-page of his staggering physical feats.

Why?

And an even better question...where are those that DISPUTE these claims. I have said it many times, but Chamberlain played and against HUNDREDS of teammates; played for and against DOZENS of coaches; was widely followed on an almost daily basis by many members of the media; had HUNDREDS of acquaintences...and yet, not ONE legitimate source (at least to my knwoledge)has ever come forward and challenged these claims. Once again, the internet is just overwhelmed with tales of 500+ bench presses...but where are those that might have actually witnessed NOT being able to do it.

In Cherry's book, he interviewed a well-known weight-lifter that worked out with Wilt. That man was 6-5, 250 lbs, and was known to have easily benched 500 lbs. He told Cherry that Wilt was the strongest man he ever met. There is an EYE-WITNESS account of Chamberlain benching 465 lbs...at age 59! SI ran an article in 1964 in which Wilt was already benching 425 lbs.

Don't you think that ONE legitimate source would have stepped foirward and disputed any of those claims if they were not true?

I will post one example...but there are literally a TON of others out there...

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


What's unfortunate is that most people regard the great leapers as being only the short guys who could dunk," said the 7-1 1/16 Wilt Chamberlain. "My sergeant [vertical leap] was higher than Michael Jordan's. When I went to Kansas, they had a 12-foot basket in the gym, because Dr. Phog Allen was advocating the 12-foot basket. I used to dunk on that basket. It was an effort, but I could do it.
Ostler, Scott (1989-02-12). "The Leaping Legends of Basketball". The Los Angeles Times.
Wilt Chamberlain claims that his sergeant, during his prime, was "46 to 48 inches, easy."
Ostler, Scott (1989-02-12). "The Leaping Legends of Basketball". The Los Angeles Times.
"When I was a freshman, I fooled around with shooting free throws this way: For some reason, I thought you had to stay within the top half of that free-throw circle, so I would step back to just inside the top of the circle, take off from behind the line and dunk. They outlawed that, but I wouldn't have done it in a game, anyway. I was a good free throw shooter in college." Actually he was a 62% free throw shooter, which is poor except in comparison to his 51% as a pro.
Ostler, Scott (1989-02-12). "The Leaping Legends of Basketball". The Los Angeles Times.
Legends abound of the truly great leapers who could touch the top of the board. Almost always the feat involves money-claims that the player could grab a dollar bill off the top of the board, or could pluck off a quarter and leave two dimes and a nickel change ... "I defy anyone to say they took change off the top of the backboard," Chamberlain said. "I could. Someone would put a quarter up and I'd snatch it down. I've heard stories about Jackie Jackson doing it, but I've never seen anyone (but himself) come close." Sonny Hill, a Philadelphia leaping legend of the '60s, backs Wilt, saying, "The only man that's been to the top, that's Wilt. I asked Kareem if he ever did, and he could jump a little bit. He told me, `Sonny, no.'"
Ostler, Scott (1989-02-12). "The Leaping Legends of Basketball". The Los Angeles Times.


Former Celtics guard K.C. Jones remembered his casual run-in with Wilt. "He stopped me dead in my tracks with his arm, hugged me and lifted me off the floor with my feet dangling," Jones said. "It scared the hell out of me. When I went to the free-throw line, my legs were still shaking. Wilt was the strongest guy and best athlete ever to play the game."
Goliath's Wonderful Life, Hoop Magazine; May 1999; Chris Ekstrand
Several years after Wilt stopped playing, he toyed with the idea of a comeback. On the day he visited the Knicks' offices in Madison Square Garden, he talked to Red Holzman, then strode out to the elevator. When it opened, two deliverymen were struggling with a dolly piled high with boxes of office supplies, mostly letterheads and envelopes. The load was so heavy, the elevator had stopped maybe four inches below the floor level and now the deliverymen were huffing and puffing, but they couldn't raise the dolly high enough to get it on the floor level. After maybe two minutes of the deliverymen's huffing and puffing, Wilt, his biceps bulging in a tank top, peered down at them and intoned, "Gentlemen, maybe I can help." They stepped back, he stepped into the elevator, grabbed each end of the rope slung under the dolly and without much exertion, quickly lifted the dolly onto the floor level. Looking up in awe, the deliverymen said, "Thank you." Wilt said, "You're welcome." Wilt stepped into the elevator and rode down to the street level as another witness followed the two deliverymen toward the Knick offices and asked, "How much does all this weigh?" They quickly surveyed the stack of big boxes of office supplies. "Close to 600 pounds," one said.
The Good Natured Giant Wasn't Belligerent, Sports of the Times; Oct 13, 1999; Dave Anderson
"One time, when I was with Boston and he was with the Lakers, Happy Hairston and I were about to get in a scrape," said Charlotte Hornets coach Paul Silas, who was a rugged, no-nonsense enforcer. "All of a sudden, I felt an enormous vise around me. I was 6-7, 235, and Wilt had picked me up and turned me around. He said, 'We're not going to have that stuff.' I said, 'Yes sir.'"
Goliath's Wonderful Life, Hoop Magazine; May 1999; Chris Ekstrand
"On the trip to Russia with the Harlem Globetrotters, we were in Lenin Stadium, and they assigned a dressing room to the team. The players were getting dressed for one of their games. They were in rather close quarters. Remember, these were young kids-Wilt was 23. The others were his age. They were like kittens. You bump me, i'll bump you back. And before you know it, two of the guys set on Wilt. They started playfully pushing and shoving him. And finally one of his teammates hit Wilt a little too hard. He took these two guys, twisted each of their shirts, and lifted both of them off the ground. Each of these guys weighed over 200 pounds. It looked like he had two little crackers in his hands. I thought he was going to hit their heads together. It was an amazing demonstration of strength".
Dr. Stan Lorber, team doctor on the Globetrotters' Russian trip


Monte) Johnson recalled that: "Wilt had such unbelievable endurance and speed that, if he took off running, there wasn't any chance that anybody would keep up with him. He glided around the track and had the grace of a deer. I said to the coach, 'It might look like it helps us to chase him, but it may kill us because you can't catch someone who runs that fast.' After practice, he was the only one who wasn't tired. I never sam him tired."
Wilt: Larger than Life, Robert Cherry
Bill Mayer, then the managing editor of the 'Lawrence Journal-World' recalled on of Wilt's impressive athletic feats: "We played Oklahoma in basketball on a friday night, here in Lawrence(, Kansas), When Oklahoma had one helluva team. And they pounded the living daylights out of Wilt, just beat him to a pulp. I think he got 32 points. This was on a friday, and the finals of the Big Seven indoor track championship were the next night in Kansas city in the Municipal Auditorium. Wilt goes in, and with a minimum of practice during the week-he had just been fiddling around-he sets a school record and ties for the Big Seven championship, jumping 6' 6 3/4""
Wilt: Larger than Life, Robert Cherry
"Nobody seems to appreciate what an incredible player Wilt was," Russell said at 1997 All-Star Game when the league named and honored its 50 greatest players. "He was the best player of all time because he dominated the floor like nobody else ever could. To be that big and that athletic was special."

[jlauber]

I've heard many say that Wilt was at his best around '72 when it comes to defense, still Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting on him during the regular season of '72.

Wilt was way closer his defensive peak in '72 than what Hakeem was in his rookie season and in his 2nd pro season..



Listen Dickwad, we have covered this MANY times, but one more time for the benefit of the other readers here.

First of all, Wilt's BEST defensive seasons were in the mid-60's. He had the two highest "non-Russell" Defensive Win Shares seasons in NBA history in 63-64 and 67-68. His 65-66 season was also one of the greatest ever. Granted, IMHO, he was at his PEAK in 66-67, and it really showed in the post-season when he reduced Russell and Thurmond to 10 and 14 ppg scorers and on .358 and .343 shooting (BOTH were nearly 100 points under their regular season marks of .454 and .437 BTW.)

And you keep bringing up Kareem's regular season against Wilt in '72. Once again, this was a 35 year old Wilt, and playing on a surgically repaired knee. BUT, with that, Kareem's "40 ppg on 50% shooting" was blown out of proportion on ONE game, in which he scored 50 points on 22-39 shooting.,..in a game in which Wilt's Lakers just BLEW OUT Kareem's Bucks (the final score was 123-107), AND, in which Kareem was outrebounded by Chamberlain, 25-8. In FACT, Wilt LED his Lakers to a 4-1 series record against Kareem's 63-19 in that regular season. Of course, everyone by now should know that Chamberlain reduced Kareem to a "deer in the headlights" in the '72 WCF's. Kareem shot .457 in that series, missing 107 shots (MANY of them BLOCKED by Wilt), AND over the course of the last four pivotal games (three of them Laker wins) Kareem shot a horrid .414.

And how about the '71 regular season? In a season in which Kareem shot .577...he shot .437 in THAT regular season against Wilt. Or how about the '73 season, which was Wilt's LAST? All Wilt did was hold Kareem to .450 shooting (and Kareem shot .554 over the course of the regular season), in their SIX regular season games...AND, Chmaberlain shot .737 against Kareem. Wilt even decided to outscore Kareem in one game that year (in a season in which he averaged 8 FGAs per game), 24-21...and outshooting Kareem in that game, 10-14 to 10-27.

Of course, we could go back to the '70 season, Kareem's rookie season, and in their one H2H game before Wilt shredded his knee, he just ABUSED Kareem. He outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded Kareem, 25-20; outassisted Kareem, 5-2; outblocked Kareem, 3-2; and outshot Kareem, 9-14 to 9-21 (.643 to .429.) THAT was probably a much better example.

Now, back to Hakeem. Hakeem, at age 23, and in his second season, was just SLAUGHTERED by a 38 year-old Kareem. A Kareem who could barely get 6 rpg. Jabbar not only averaged 33 ppg, but he did so on an eye-popping .634 shooting. He also had TWO games of 40+ (as well as another one in '85 against Hakeem), including one in which he scored at will, with 46 points, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes. The recap just ripped the Rockets coach afterwards for allowing Hakeem to try to guard Kareem one-on-one, and even suggested that Kareem could easily have topped his career of 55 points had he been allowed to continue the brutal annihilation.

Granted, Hakeem outplayed Kareem in that post-season, BUT, Kareem STILL averaged 27 pppg against him in that series, including games of 31 and 33. BTW, Hakeem was 23 years old that season. How about Kareem at 23? He LED the NBA in scoring, at 31.7 ppg, grabbed 16 rpg, shot .577, won the MVP, and then won the FMVP. And again, BTW, in THAT season, Wilt held Kareem to 26 ppg on .437 shooting, and then 25 ppg on .481 shooting in the playoffs...while scoring 23 ppg and 22 ppg on .496 and .489 shooting against Kareem (and outrebounding him in both.)

BUT, how about THIS question...just how bad would it have been had we been able to see a 23 year-old Kareem against a 38 year-old year Hakeem?

And continuing...how about a 25 year old Wilt against a 35 year old Kareem?

What we do KNOW is that Kareem faced MANY of the same centers that Chamberlain dominated, and he never came CLOSE to putting up the numbers that Wilt did against players like Reed, Bellamy, and Thurmond, et.al.

Back to Hakeem. He crushed Robinson in ONE six GAME series. How about their other 42 H2H games? Hakeem outscored DRob, per game, 21.9 to 19.6, while Robinson outshot Hakeem by a solid .488 to .441 margin. Virtually every other stat between them was dead even. Except one...Robinson's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=olajuha01

And you keep spouting about Hakeem "outplaying" Shaq in the '95 Finals. Yep, a young Shaq, and against your "defensively PRIME" Hakeem, could only score 28 ppg and on .595 shooting (while holding Hakeem to .483 shooting), and even outrebounding and outblocking Hakeem in the process.

Of course, you never mention how a more PRIME Shaq just BURIED Hakeem in the '99 playoffs (outscoring him, 29 ppg to 13 ppg, and outshooting him, .516 to .426.) STILL, Shaq's career high game against Hakeem was "only" 37 points. Think about that...a PRIME Shaq, and against a fading Hakeem, could only hang 37 on Hakeem. And yet, a way over the hill Kareem could easily pour in THREE games of 40+ against Hakeem.

In any case, how about the Shaq and Hakeem H2H's?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

Pretty ONE-SIDED wouldn't you say?

[jlauber]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
Dickwad...

Hakeem has NO business being mentioned in the same breath as Russell, Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt.

He is in the next tier, with Robinson (who really outplayed him in the vast majority of their H2H's), and Moses, who was clearly regarded as a more dominant player by his own PEERS (THREE MVPs to ONE by Hakeem.)


this stuff about hakeem was a bunch of bullshit.

Read my previous post.

Hakeem dominated Robinson in ONE post-season series, covering SIX GAMES. Over the course of their other 42 H2H's, Robinson was at worst, the EQUAL of Hakeem, and given the fact that his Spurs went 30-12 against Hakeem's Rockets...well, DRob has a case as being an even better player.

And Moses had a 3-1 edge over Hakeem in MVP's. And looking at the overall MVP balloting...well, Malone's was obviously considered more dominant against his PEERS, than what Hakeem was against his. Once again, the FACTS...

Hakeem won that ONE MVP (and MJ sat out that season.) He came in SECOND, ONE other time. And he came in FOURTH on TWO more occasions. That was IT. Hakeem didn't even finish in the Top-10 in NINE of his seasons...or HALF of his career.

Hakeem is easily the most over-rated player on this forum.

[jlauber]

Don't bother, he is so butthurt...
The guy is the most ignorant and stupid poster on this site, at least trolls are doing it for fun but Jlauber is just obsessed, brainwashed and stupid. The guy even thinks that Nate Thurmond is way better than Hakeem..:facepalm

Hakeem was a better offensive player, but Nate was a much better defensive player and a better rebounder. Still, I would rank Hakeem anywhere from 8th to 12th all-time. Nate is probably top-40.

[jlauber]

Why are you so interested in Wilt stats when you weren't even alive then? You speak in absolute truths, but I'm certain I'm older than you. I don't comment on Russell, even though my dad watched basketball during that era, I stick to the late 70's Celtics and onwards. I post about what I know and have experienced first hand.

First of all YOU asked the question...


I'd love to know Wilt and Bill's block averages, also Nate Thurmond.

I was merely responding with what I knew.

Secondly I started following the NBA at age NINE, in the 63-64 season (in fact, ALL major sports.)

And I watched MANY of the Russell-Wilt (and Oscar-West) battles live on TV.

[jlauber]

I'll ignore the usual battles that lead nowhere and I'll answer the original question: Anywhere between 20 and 40 quadruple-doubles (probably closer to the second figure), including even small streaks in 1967 and 1968. He posted 2/3rds of his triple-doubles in these two seasons and I'd be willing to bet his blocking averages in these two seasons would be his career's highest, along with the ones in his first 2-3 seasons. I consider 8 as a minimum, given what I've accumulated.

It looks to me like most star players post their best shot blocking (and steals) numbers in games where they already post incredible all-around numbers. Their activity just peaks in such games. For example, Hakeem was averaging 28.6/15.5/5.1/2.9/52.8% FG in his double-digit shot-blocking games. David Robinson, 29.5/13.0/3.6/2.1/60.2% FG. Kareem was at 26.6/17.6, and that's without 1970-73. Shaq was a bit more "normal" at the games when he posted 8+ blocks, but he still was at 27.4/17.1. Wilt himself had higher numbers than his averages in the games where he allegedly got 10+ blocks and I don't doubt he'd remain so if we were to know all his 10+ blocks games.

BTW, I estimate Wilt's actual triple-double number to be around 10 times higher than his QD's, anywhere between 200 and 400.

100% agreed. Including BLOCKS, Wilt would easily own the all-time TRIPLE-DOUBLE Record, as well. Pretty amazing that the more research that is being done, the more he ADDS to his already staggering numbers...

[millwad]

And you keep bringing up Kareem's regular season against Wilt in '72. Once again, this was a 35 year old Wilt, and playing on a surgically repaired knee. BUT, with that, Kareem's "40 ppg on 50% shooting" was blown out of proportion on ONE game, in which he scored 50 points on 22-39 shooting.,..in a game in which Wilt's Lakers just BLEW OUT Kareem's Bucks (the final score was 123-107), AND, in which Kareem was outrebounded by Chamberlain, 25-8. In FACT, Wilt LED his Lakers to a 4-1 series record against Kareem's 63-19 in that regular season. Of course, everyone by now should know that Chamberlain reduced Kareem to a "deer in the headlights" in the '72 WCF's. Kareem shot .457 in that series, missing 107 shots (MANY of them BLOCKED by Wilt), AND over the course of the last four pivotal games (three of them Laker wins) Kareem shot a horrid .414.

You're just a biased idiot, you're so pathetic and you don't even think before writing. First you whine about me mentioning Wilt getting outscored and abused by Kareem in '72 but the only reason why I even mention it because you spammed this forum about how Wilt "schooled" Kareem in '72 while first getting 40 points scored on him as an average in the regular season and then being outscored by 23 points per game by Kareem as an average in the playoffs on better FG%, on twice as good FT% and while outassisting Wilt. This is what you call "schooling"..:facepalm

And I think it's very relevant anyway to bring this fact up, during Wilt's second championshiprun he wasn't even the best freaking center in the NBA.. Kareem was and only an idiot would claim something else.




Now, back to Hakeem. Hakeem, at age 23, and in his second season, was just SLAUGHTERED by a 38 year-old Kareem. A Kareem who could barely get 6 rpg. Jabbar not only averaged 33 ppg, but he did so on an eye-popping .634 shooting. He also had TWO games of 40+ (as well as another one in '85 against Hakeem), including one in which he scored at will, with 46 points, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes. The recap just ripped the Rockets coach afterwards for allowing Hakeem to try to guard Kareem one-on-one, and even suggested that Kareem could easily have topped his career of 55 points had he been allowed to continue the brutal annihilation.


Hakeem in '85 was a rookie and no where close his prime, only an idiot would claim something else. And it's funny, first you say Hakeem got "SLAUGHTERED" (capital letters, you are so lame) but Hakeem absolutely destroyed the previous year's champ Lakers in the WCF in his second year as a pro, the same year he according to you got "slaughtered" he actually abused Kareem and the Lakers..:facepalm



Granted, Hakeem outplayed Kareem in that post-season, BUT, Kareem STILL averaged 27 pppg against him in that series, including games of 31 and 33. BTW, Hakeem was 23 years old that season. How about Kareem at 23? He LED the NBA in scoring, at 31.7 ppg, grabbed 16 rpg, shot .577, won the MVP, and then won the FMVP.

Which only shows that you even didn't see the series, Sampson guarded Jabbar in that series, not Hakeem. Why are you even commenting on games you obviously never saw, you idiot..

And since you haven't seen the series I can tell you, the Lakers tried to do everything to stop Hakeem but they had no chance and he abused them big time and Kareem had nothing to say about anything in this series. The Lakers with their 3 HOF:ers got absolutely crushed by the Rockets lead by Hakeem so it was more than "outplaying", it was pure domination.

And Kareem at 23 was nothing but amazing, I have Kareem as my number 1 center ever, ahead of Hakeem and definitely ahead of Wilt.




BUT, how about THIS question...just how bad would it have been had we been able to see a 23 year-old Kareem against a 38 year-old year Hakeem?

Or even better, a 23 year old Kareem against a 38 year old Wilt, would have been cool to take Wilt back from retirement..:facepalm




Back to Hakeem. He crushed Robinson in ONE six GAME series. How about their other 42 H2H games? Hakeem outscored DRob, per game, 21.9 to 19.6, while Robinson outshot Hakeem by a solid .488 to .441 margin. Virtually every other stat between them was dead even. Except one...Robinson's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=olajuha01

Go and find ONE, just one person who claims that David Robinson was a better player than Hakeem and Fatal already discussed this in a thread where you tried to call out Hakeem for this and after him toying you, you never came back to the thread..:facepalm



And you keep spouting about Hakeem "outplaying" Shaq in the '95 Finals. Yep, a young Shaq, and against your "defensively PRIME" Hakeem, could only score 28 ppg and on .595 shooting (while holding Hakeem to .483 shooting), and even outrebounding and outblocking Hakeem in the process.

What's funny is that you can't admit that Hakeem outplayed Shaq when even Shaq himself says he got outplayed. I kniow you haven't seen this series either because you've commented the series based on stats a million times but you have never ever made a comment regarding how they played or tried to break down the games even a little.. You've just visited basketball-reference and now you think you know how it went down..

And what's even more pathetic is that you don't consider that Shaq got outplayed by Hakeem in '95 but at the same time you claim that Wilt "schooled" Kareem in '72. When Kareem outscored Wilt by 23 points a game on better FG%, outassiststed Wilt and shot FT's twice as good as Wilt in this series. Haha, like seriously, use your brain..:facepalm



Of course, you never mention how a more PRIME Shaq just BURIED Hakeem in the '99 playoffs (outscoring him, 29 ppg to 13 ppg, and outshooting him, .516 to .426.) STILL, Shaq's career high game against Hakeem was "only" 37 points. Think about that...a PRIME Shaq, and against a fading Hakeem, could only hang 37 on Hakeem. And yet, a way over the hill Kareem could easily pour in THREE games of 40+ against Hakeem.

Oh, first you whine about how it's not fair to bring up Wilt being dominated by Kareem when he was 35 and then you bring up a 36 year old Hakeem to the discussion..:facepalm

And as you stated, Shaq's career high vs Hakeem is 37 points and it came when Hakeem was 36 years old. Kareem trashed Wilt and averaged 40 points on him over a whole season..

And oh, so you mean that PRIME Shaq was a worse player than a 38 year old Kareem? This is why everyone laughs at you and your shitty posts, you don't use your brain, you are obsessed with stats but you have no knowledge of the game. And obviously you still don't get it, a 23 year old Hakeem trashed Kareem and the showtime Lakers in the same year where you spam about how he killed Hakeem and a 36 year old Hakeem was just a corpse...



In any case, how about the Shaq and Hakeem H2H's?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

Pretty ONE-SIDED wouldn't you say?

Actually, since a ton of those games were against a 35+ year old Hakeem, Hakeem still managed to play decent basketball. And he didn't get abused like Wilt did against Kareem who averaged 40 points over a whole season on poor little Wilt..:roll:

[millwad]

First of all YOU asked the question...

Secondly I started following the NBA at age NINE, in the 63-64 season (in fact, ALL major sports.)

And I watched MANY of the Russell-Wilt (and Oscar-West) battles live on TV.

I sure thing don't remember basketball games I saw when I was 9 and that's only 13 years ago. I guess you have some kind of super memory, considering how you spam about 47 year old basketball games like you saw them yesterday..:facepalm

But your "amazing" memory failed you some how 3 years ago when you wrote stuff about the players of this era being more talented, better trained and stronger and that Wilt didn't face any great competition.. But suddenly some how your memory came back 40 years after you "saw" the games.. Haha, you have "FAIL" written all over you..

[Legends66NBA7]

jlauber and millwad.

You guys are like husband and wife over these arguements.

[D-Wade316]

Wilt = Unofficial all-time leader in double-double, triple-doubles, and quadruple-doubles. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[PHILA]

You forgot to mention that Shaq's post skills were much better than Wilt's.Yes his signature shoulder plow was much better.

[PHILA]

First of all, Wilt's BEST defensive seasons were in the mid-60's. He had the two highest "non-Russell" Defensive Win Shares seasons in NBA history in 63-64 and 67-68. His 65-66 season was also one of the greatest ever.


I we are looking at his overall impact & dedication as an anchor then '72 may be his peak. But after knee surgery Wilt was not as great a matchup head-to-head vs. KAJ due to his lost mobility and slower reaction time. As high as Wilt reached for the blocks, KAJ could arc the ball over in fingertips up and in, like Thurmond demonstrates here below at 0:55 mark.

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675026452


http://i.imgur.com/8J2M7.jpg



The injury affected his offensive game as well.

Through most of the '60s, Chamberlain played with strength, speed, and dexterity. "But Wilt's style was different after the injury: more mechanical, flat-footed, clearly not as fluid, less certain of his ball-handling skills.

[NugzHeat3]

Another difference being that Shaq had a wider body.



I would guess 260 max. As a rookie he was skinny.

http://i.imgur.com/Ne3U1.jpg


The inside game: race, power, and politics in the NBA - Wayne Embry

http://i.imgur.com/gykGc.png





He also improved his strength in certain weight lifting exercises over the next several years.


Sports Illustrated - October 26, 1959 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1134161/index.htm)

The important thing is that he is also a strong, fast, well-coordinated athlete. Consider the following: he has run the quarter mile in 49 seconds flat, bettered 6 feet 7 in the high jump, put the shot 51 feet, can lift 265 pounds in the clean-and-jerk and 210 in the military press. For none of these feats did Chamberlain prepare himself through normal training; they were casual, offhand achievements by an athlete who has always devoted his free time and effort to basketball.


According to esteemed author Gary M. Pomerantz, Chamberlain could deadlift 625 lbs.

http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2005/edition_04-24-2005/featured_1



The Miami News - Nov 7, 1962 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1XYyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2OkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,2425147)

He can clean and jerk a 375-lb. weight, run the quarter mile in 47s, and high-jump over 6-11.


Sports Illustrated - March 2, 1964 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075691/2/index.htm)

The St. Louis Hawks' 6-foot-9, 240-pound Zelmo Beaty, for example, found out recently that he can no longer take Chamberlain's great strength for granted. Unable to slow Wilt down with conventional maltreatment, Beaty tried to yank his shorts off. Chamberlain, who can press 400 pounds without breathing hard, makes it a point to control his temper, primarily because he is genuinely afraid he might kill somebody. Beaty's unethical yank, however, was too much. Wilt flicked an arm, and Beaty flew across the floor like a man shot out of a cannon. Referee Mendy Rudolph rushed over to him and said: "For God's sake, stay down, man. Don't even twitch a muscle." Beaty didn't twitch, and he is still active in the NBA.



The Evening Independent - Jan 6, 1967 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=TSMoAAAAIBAJ&sjid=S1cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,911381&dq)

"I'd bet you $1,000 I could lift 1,000 pounds," the 76ers singular 7-1 center said, "I have. I've also hand-wrestled two men at the same time and beat them. And there's nothing I'd like to do better than play pro football."



He did have great balance & couldn't be pushed around despite the "improper balance". The Wall Wayne Embry at 6'8 would give him good physical battles in the paint. He would often bring the ball down to gather himself for the power finish (like Shaq) and habitually would perform a quick fake just before going up in what seems to be anticipation of a hard foul. This may look like "poor coordination" to some fans, but I will point out that he is always under control. Some examples below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3jIemiXiPs#t=2m58s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3jIemiXiPs#t=2m58s)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ghbAYFouJA#t=1m47s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=1m55s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=4m50s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=9m20s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW5-PEx0n2E#t=21s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW5-PEx0n2E#t=4m10s


Even going up with two hands, he would slam it down with one. Embry & Havlicek think they've got Greer trapped in the corner, who makes a great pass to Wilt for the dunk. :pimp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=27m51s


http://i.imgur.com/URaWo.png





You are correct regarding Wilt's physical build. There is a reason some called him the Stilt.

http://i.imgur.com/uGrdU.jpg




By retirement he was roughly 315 lbs, which is the same weight he reported to Warriors camp at in '63. To me Wilt's strength & power was more graceful and effortless than Shaq, who loved to emphatically pound defenders. It appears that '00 Shaq (340 lbs) had a 20-25 lb advantage over '64 Wilt (315-320 lbs).





Meriden Journal - Sep 6, 1963 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CqxIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xwANAAAAIBAJ&pg=3715,469887&dq)

http://i.imgur.com/9hHKU.png



http://i.imgur.com/F8ayu.png
http://i.imgur.com/7Nkzu.png
http://i.imgur.com/YRmNb.png



Orlando Sentinel - Oct 31, 1999

He is bigger than ever now, a solid 340 pounds (at least 10 pounds heavier than last season) and has a Hungry Man appetite that demands immediate satisfaction.



Los Angeles Times - Oct 7, 1999

Whatever Coach Phil Jackson's requested weight for Shaquille O'Neal was, the center did not meet it--probably didn't even come close--when the Lakers were weighed after the morning practice Wednesday at UC Santa Barbara.

"The more I lift weights, the higher the number's going to be," O'Neal said. "I'm not really concerned about numbers. . . . I'll bust any big man's butt no matter what I weigh."

"I'm not unhappy about it," Jackson said. "He's shown he's in condition out there on the floor. That's the major goal, the guy's in condition so he can get up and down the court."

O'Neal, who has added muscle on his shoulders, said he came in at 340 pounds.
Damn good stuff. I liked the videos too. You have any idea regarding the sudden increase in his weight entering the 1963-64 season?

BTW, you misinterpreted my post I think. I wasn't saying anything about his co-ordination, fluidity or body control; just noting that the balance in strength wasn't proper or proportioned throughout the body.

I like the upfake he does even if he doesn't get the defense to bite, its enough to freeze the defense and result in a dunk. As well as doing a good job protecting the ball up high when doubled.

[Lebowski]

lol @ Wilt's stats. Every time I read them I think "WOW!".

I read a story in SLAM magazine once about Wilt playing in (if I remember correctly) Rucker Park. And one player, who might have been a local hero blocked one of Wilts shots and went crazy, so did the crowd. Wilt responded with something like "Enough of this" and blocked every shot for the rest of the game, not attempts, blocks. Anyone else recall a story like this, might have been like 8-9 years ago.

Nothing to add here, but a cool story.

[PHILA]

You have any idea regarding the sudden increase in his weight entering the 1963-64 season?

Not sure. It is difficult to predict the playing weight given the fluctuation throughout the season (and off season), as he would lose 5-10 lbs after a game. 320 lbs may have been considered out of shape back then due to the running game as opposed to the slower, more half-court style today. It seems his playing weight was closer to 295. I don't think Shaq (in Chuck Taylors) would effectively play in that era at 330-340 without rapidly breaking down.


The Windsor Star - Sep 26, 1963 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=QDM_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=T1EMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3530,4007040)

http://i.imgur.com/nLUnL.png



Even Bill Russell would report to camp at 240+ lbs, referring to himself as a "fat center".


The Owosso Argus-Press - Sep 24, 1968 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=XEwoAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jwUGAAAAIBAJ&pg=4907,2569532)

http://i.imgur.com/jiKeQ.png


BTW, you misinterpreted my post I think. I wasn't saying anything about his co-ordination, fluidity or body control; just noting that the balance in strength wasn't proper or proportioned throughout the body.

That was in reference to what other fans have said on this board.

[PHILA]

Coach Dolph Schayes also worked the Sixers hard in camp focusing on endurance & stamina.


Tall Tales: The Glory Years of the NBA - Terry Pluto

http://i.imgur.com/bZDL1.png

[PHILA]

lol @ Wilt's stats. Every time I read them I think "WOW!".

I read a story in SLAM magazine once about Wilt playing in (if I remember correctly) Rucker Park. And one player, who might have been a local hero blocked one of Wilts shots and went crazy, so did the crowd. Wilt responded with something like "Enough of this" and blocked every shot for the rest of the game, not attempts, blocks. Anyone else recall a story like this, might have been like 8-9 years ago.

Nothing to add here, but a cool story.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently.

[PHILA]

It may be this tale from Connie Hawkins.


Pickup Artists: Street Basketball in America - Lars Anderson, Chad Millman

http://i.imgur.com/Zw6rs.png
http://i.imgur.com/NAogQ.png

[Lebowski]

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently.

That is the one! I like how I make stuff up like Rucker Park.

A very cool story still, thanks for posting it!

'There will be no more layups in this gym' is actually somewhat of an epic line, since he followed it up.

I never get into the "x is better then y" but Wilt is a legend, wherever one might rank him.

[Lebowski]

It may be this tale from Connie Hawkins.


Pickup Artists: Street Basketball in America - Lars Anderson, Chad Millman

http://i.imgur.com/Zw6rs.png
http://i.imgur.com/NAogQ.png

Great! They were both in that issue of SLAM. I got them confused. Thanks!

[Pointguard]

It may be this tale from Connie Hawkins.


Pickup Artists: Street Basketball in America - Lars Anderson, Chad Millman

http://i.imgur.com/Zw6rs.png
http://i.imgur.com/NAogQ.png
I grew up going and playing in Rucker Park and this story is still in tac. Suprising that the oral tradition is still very accurate.

This whole thread Phila... Great stuff!

[Pointguard]

I sure thing don't remember basketball games I saw when I was 9 and that's only 13 years ago. I guess you have some kind of super memory, considering how you spam about 47 year old basketball games like you saw them yesterday..:facepalm

But your "amazing" memory failed you some how 3 years ago when you wrote stuff about the players of this era being more talented, better trained and stronger and that Wilt didn't face any great competition.. But suddenly some how your memory came back 40 years after you "saw" the games.. Haha, you have "FAIL" written all over you..

Wow, seriously guy, if you are 22 and your are spending this amount of time into trying to deny another person, about the presence and impact of another person... its really problematic. You need to stop now, at this moment, and get on to other things. I'm not being mean, I'm not picking sides... . You are spending waaay to much of your youth talking about something you never seen. Wait til you get revelations about God.

It should never look like you have a passion everyday, to go at an internet person about something you never saw and he did. Jlauder loves talking about Wilt, he gets more energy from doing this its a positive energy for him. Jlauder is one of those guys that energy enhances him when he's on something he likes doing. But for you its the opposite.It's a negative energy for you. He wins this argument the second it begins on the level of energy. He's got science, statistics, references of a guy that has volumes of quotes that Wilt was ahead of his time and you don't have much to counter except your precious energy. You are looking like an oil spill, guy. Spend more time on yourself and developing that. This is truely crazy.

To other people its looks like a sickness, a mental fixation, as if Jlauder was a strong family figure that did you wrong. It doesn't look normal anymore. It doesn't look healthy at all. When you hate at a level where you are now and trying to be creative with it everday its a loosing battle. You can't destroy Wilt's legacy, or his records, the quotes about him, his great gifts, his importance to the game, and Jlauder is getting hyped on things where he has a ton of support for. Your energy is very much the opposite. Do something more constructive with it. If you get older with this mentality you are going to resent it later.

[millwad]

Wow, seriously guy, if you are 22 and your are spending this amount of time into trying to deny another person, about the presence and impact of another person... its really problematic. You need to stop now, at this moment, and get on to other things. I'm not being mean, I'm not picking sides... . You are spending waaay to much of your youth talking about something you never seen. Wait til you get revelations about God.

Haha, that was the biggest load crap I've ever read. During my 4 years on this site I've averaged 0.7 posts per day, and you tell me I spend way too much time on discussing basketball, haha. And it's even more fun considering the fact that you average more than 4 times as many posts per day on this site compared to me..:facepalm

And your beloved Jlauber is the one coming after me in every single thread I write in about Wilt. Wanna talk about problems, I find it disturbing that a 56 year old man spends so much of his time trying to defend a basketball player he saw play 40 years ago and he takes every negative comment on Wilt as a personal insult. Get a life, mr "Pointguard"..:facepalm



It should never look like you have a passion everyday, to go at an internet person about something you never saw and he did. Jlauder loves talking about Wilt, he gets more energy from doing this its a positive energy for him. Jlauder is one of those guys that energy enhances him when he's on something he likes doing. But for you its the opposite.It's a negative energy for you. He wins this argument the second it begins on the level of energy. He's got science, statistics, references of a guy that has volumes of quotes that Wilt was ahead of his time and you don't have much to counter except your precious energy. You are looking like an oil spill, guy. Spend more time on yourself and developing that. This is truely crazy.

I play in the swedish basketball league and I study at university, don't tell me about oil spill, cutie. Go and get a life, please, it's a fact that you spend way more time on this site than I have ever done..:facepalm

The guy is coming after me everytime I make a comment on Wilt, Hakeem, Russell or whatever great center and who the hell are you pick sides and give me advice about something when you are spending way more time on this site compared to me..:facepalm

It's the pathetic Jlauber who's made this a personal vendetta, every single time I have written anything about Wilt he didn't agree on he's trying to get back to me by dissing Hakeem who is my favourite player. He goes off-topic in his own threads just because he thinks I will get mad at him for dissing Hakeem Olajuwon, a freaking basketball player, haha...

What's crazy is that you are really trying to diss me while talking good and bad "energy". The guy is obsessed with a guy who played basketball 40 years ago and he has taken it to unhealthy heights. And talking about players you've never seen, I doubt you have seen Wilt play for real and still I see you writing and defending Wilt all the time someone writes anything about him.



To other people its looks like a sickness, a mental fixation, as if Jlauder was a strong family figure that did you wrong. It doesn't look normal anymore. It doesn't look healthy at all. When you hate at a level where you are now and trying to be creative with it everday its a loosing battle. You can't destroy Wilt's legacy, or his records, the quotes about him, his great gifts, his importance to the game, and Jlauder is getting hyped on things where he has a ton of support for. Your energy is very much the opposite. Do something more constructive with it. If you get older with this mentality you are going to resent it later

Haha, dude, get real, who the hell are you, you little bum.. What's not normal is trying to diss me when the other side is Jlauber. And you can check the discussions we have had, I write something in a thread and then he tries to go after me or he hi-jacks my threads with Wilt propaganda. I have seen you trying to defend his old ass before and maybe you should go and get a hobby that doesn't involve defending Jlauber on the internet..:facepalm

[PHILA]

I grew up going and playing in Rucker Park and this story is still in tac. Suprising that the oral tradition is still very accurate.

This whole thread Phila... Great stuff!:applause:

It's too bad the Rucker games were not captured on video. We may have seen some more of Wilt's great pivot moves.

Here the old man (35) quickly spins off the defensive player for the slam, ala Shaq:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpufnh4fmRk#t=34m46s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpufnh4fmRk#t=34m46s)



Or baseline spin immediately off the catch ala Hakeem, before he is fouled by K.C. Jones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHz0bFRrfAc#t=8m16s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHz0bFRrfAc#t=8m16s)

[DaPerceive]

You forgot to mention that Shaq's post skills were much better than Wilt's.
That isn't fair to Wilt at all. Wilt did not have many, if any blueprints to play with while Shaq had plenty. If we were to have this magic time machine and have Wilt play in the 90s, 2000s, present Wilt's post moves would be a lot better in those eras than they would be then. You are about as good as the era you played in.

The same notion applies to players like Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, etc. Without those guys, players like Erving, Bird, Magic, MJ, etc. wouldn't have a blueprint to follow either.


Respect your history.

[BlackJoker23]

That isn't fair to Wilt at all. Wilt did not have many, if any blueprints to play with while Shaq had plenty. If we were to have this magic time machine and have Wilt play in the 90s, 2000s, present Wilt's post moves would be a lot better in those eras than they would be then. You are about as good as the era you played in.

The same notion applies to players like Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, etc. Without those guys, players like Erving, Bird, Magic, MJ, etc. wouldn't have a blueprint to follow either.


Respect your history.
rg u trying to gain credibility as a poster or what

[kaiiu]

zero

[Pointguard]

Haha, that was the biggest load crap I've ever read. During my 4 years on this site I've averaged 0.7 posts per day, and you tell me I spend way too much time on discussing basketball, haha. And it's even more fun considering the fact that you average more than 4 times as many posts per day on this site compared to me..:facepalm
Seriously, do you think time and energy are spent on the number of post? You write long negative post. A person can have 5,000 post and spend less time than somebody who has done 500. Post count can be jacked in like crazy in an hour... but not yours. Kauii post count is very high but its a word or two and he's out.


And your beloved Jlauber is the one coming after me in every single thread I write in about Wilt. Wanna talk about problems, I find it disturbing that a 56 year old man spends so much of his time trying to defend a basketball player he saw play 40 years ago and he takes every negative comment on Wilt as a personal insult. Get a life, mr "Pointguard"..:facepalm

He can spend a lot of time on talking about Wilt because he enjoys that. You hate Wilt and seemingly Jlauder. Who do you think is getting more out of it?



I play in the swedish basketball league and I study at university, don't tell me about oil spill, cutie. Go and get a life, please, it's a fact that you spend way more time on this site than I have ever done..:facepalm

No I'm not close to matching the time you spend here. And I only post in threads I like - and you are very active with negative energy when I go to the few I go to. The oil spill reference was to the fact that you waisting your time energy and resources on hating and going out of your way on some crazy illusion that you got some win in this matter. I'm not doing this for JLauder - this Bud is for you. He's got his priorities down.


The guy is coming after me everytime I make a comment on Wilt, Hakeem, Russell or whatever great center and who the hell are you pick sides and give me advice about something when you are spending way more time on this site compared to me..:facepalm

You telling me he went and got you and brought you to this thread? You really don't think we know that you follow him?


It's the pathetic Jlauber who's made this a personal vendetta, every single time I have written anything about Wilt he didn't agree on he's trying to get back to me by dissing Hakeem who is my favourite player. He goes off-topic in his own threads just because he thinks I will get mad at him for dissing Hakeem Olajuwon, a freaking basketball player, haha...

LOL, true dat.


What's crazy is that you are really trying to diss me while talking good and bad "energy". The guy is obsessed with a guy who played basketball 40 years ago and he has taken it to unhealthy heights. And talking about players you've never seen, I doubt you have seen Wilt play for real and still I see you writing and defending Wilt all the time someone writes anything about him.

As a ten year old, I was introduced to Wilt but he was before my time as far as playing. I did see a great game by him which I took for granted I would always be able to go back to and that wasn't the case. So I like Wilt threads but I actually don't post in half of them. I rarely do stats, and write off the top of my head. I notice that you do a lot of cross referencing and back tracking which takes up time.


Haha, dude, get real, who the hell are you, you little bum.. What's not normal is trying to diss me when the other side is Jlauber. And you can check the discussions we have had, I write something in a thread and then he tries to go after me or he hi-jacks my threads with Wilt propaganda. I have seen you trying to defend his old ass before and maybe you should go and get a hobby that doesn't involve defending Jlauber on the internet..:facepalm
:lol He's truely passionate about that time period, Wilt and the history of the game. What's your excuse? You exist with a position that is just contrary to his.

Hey, I can't tell you what to do or how to spend your time. You can keep doing it, in fact you can become an old man doing it. A word to the wise is sometimes good enough.

[Cangri]

That isn't fair to Wilt at all. Wilt did not have many, if any blueprints to play with while Shaq had plenty. If we were to have this magic time machine and have Wilt play in the 90s, 2000s, present Wilt's post moves would be a lot better in those eras than they would be then. You are about as good as the era you played in.

The same notion applies to players like Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, etc. Without those guys, players like Erving, Bird, Magic, MJ, etc. wouldn't have a blueprint to follow either.


Respect your history.
Who cares about the "what ifs", the fact is Shaq was much more skilled than him, even at the frree throw line :oldlol:

The other fact is even though he was "easily" much better than anyone else at the time, he still couldn't win more than 2 times, even when there were fewer teams.

[The_Yearning]

Wilt would probably average 23, 13, and 3 blk a game in todays league at best...

if you would think he would have better averages than that you're an idiot...

[inclinerator]

id say he would have 235 quad doubles in his career

[Math2]

Who cares about the "what ifs", the fact is Shaq was much more skilled than him, even at the frree throw line :oldlol:

The other fact is even though he was "easily" much better than anyone else at the time, he still couldn't win more than 2 times, even when there were fewer teams.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: That's the funniest thing I've read in a LONG time.

[PTB Fan]

At least 20 if not more. All of them have came up from 66-68 in his days as a Philly. His all-around game really stood out from that period. He also had a triple double in average vs Russell in 67.

So yeah, you should look up from that period.

[PHILA]

At least 20 if not more. All of them have came up from 66-68 in his days as a Philly. His all-around game really stood out from that period. He also had a triple double in average vs Russell in 67.

So yeah, you should look up from that period.

I would match the '65-'68 Sixers against any historical (or modern) team since their breakup. :applause:

http://i.imgur.com/g0dJl.png

[PHILA]

Chamberlain also had a near quadruple double vs. Nate Thurmond & the Warriors early in the '65-'66 season. From the box score preview all I got on Nate was that he made 7 field goals & 3 out of 4 foul shots. Dipper made 13 field goals & 7 out of 11 foul shots en route to a 33/17/8/16 effort.


Spokane Daily Chronicle - Dec 27, 1965 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=c25YAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AvgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6858,7281451)

http://i.imgur.com/0Lhh5.png

[Psileas]

Chamberlain also had a near quadruple double vs. Nate Thurmond & the Warriors early in the '65-'66 season. From the box score preview all I got on Nate was that he made 7 field goals & 3 out of 4 foul shots. Dipper made 13 field goals & 7 out of 11 foul shots en route to a 33/17/8/16 effort.


Spokane Daily Chronicle - Dec 27, 1965 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=c25YAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AvgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6858,7281451)

http://i.imgur.com/0Lhh5.png

This game came during a 3-game streak against the game's elite defenders and I'd say it was arguably the greatest 3-game streak against eilte defenders ever. Before this game came a 45/21 game against Thurmond again (the one jlauber refers to at times, probably the most points any player has ever scored vs Thurmond) and after this followed a 31/40 game against Russell, who he held to only 11/13. I'd love to see how many times a player had to play 3 games in a row against elite defenders and produced equally dominant games.

[nycelt84]

I would match the '65-'68 Sixers against any historical (or modern) team since their breakup. :applause:

http://i.imgur.com/g0dJl.png

Sure I'll take the Boston Celtics of that same time period which ended their seasons twice.

[PHILA]

This game came during a 3-game streak against the game's elite defenders and I'd say it was arguably the greatest 3-game streak against eilte defenders ever. Before this game came a 45/21 game against Thurmond again (the one jlauber refers to at times, probably the most points any player has ever scored vs Thurmond) and after this followed a 31/40 game against Russell, who he held to only 11/13. I'd love to see how many times a player had to play 3 games in a row against elite defenders and produced equally dominant games.

It would be nice to the game footage. The 33/17/8/16 game was played on a Sunday, thus broadcast nationally on ABC. However I was not 100% sure that Nate played in the 45/21 game.

[PHILA]

Sure I'll take the Boston Celtics of that same time period which ended their seasons twice.
As I said "since their breakup" (in '68 when Wilt left), leaving only the aging and beat up '69 Celtics. Perhaps the Sixers "breakup" was complete in '72 when Billy C left, leaving Greer as the only player on the roster from the '67 championship team. While Boston was indeed impressive in the '69 playoffs I would not shoe them in over a healthy Sixers team with Wilt & Luke Jackson. Of course, we must not forget how Russell set the tone in the first game of the '69 series with one of the gutty dominating efforts in league history. With Big Bill, anything is possible. :applause:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgU4nMeOQmA#t=12m48s

"One year [1969] we were playing Philly in the first round," he recalls. "I blocked the first seven shots Luke Jackson took. My object was to take him out of the series, so they'd have to play another center who was far less efficient, and they would not be able to utilize one of their strengths.

[millwad]

"One year [1969] we were playing Philly in the first round," he recalls. "I blocked the first seven shots Luke Jackson took. My object was to take him out of the series, so they'd have to play another center who was far less efficient, and they would not be able to utilize one of their strengths.

You gotta like guy's like Phila who trust every quote they find..:facepalm

[nbasercan]

very nice :rockon: (http://www.nba-jordan.com/)

[PHILA]

You gotta like guy's like Phila who trust every quote they find..
It turns out Russell had near triple double in that game with 2 points, 15 rebounds, 8 assists, & 12 blocked shots. :applause: