1994 Bulls (w/ Jordan) vs. 1994 Rockets

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The best answer to a Bulls and Rockets '94 nba final is "NOBODY KNOWS", we can speculate, give our opinions, but honestly - we'll never know ... I will state this though, Hakeem's '95 title run ranks no. 1 in Nba history (just my opinion, everyone's entitled to what they feel). Hakeem beat a Malone & Stockton 60 win Jazz team in round 1, a 59 win Barkley-led Suns team, a league-best 62 win Robinson-led spurs team and the 57 win Shaq/Penny-led Orlando Magic. This represented the four best teams in the Nba record-wise, & the Dream beat them all. Who else can make that claim?

Also..its not just about having some sort of 'wingman'..those Rockets knew their roles. Their perimeter shooting was dead on! And down low..in 1994..they had Thorpe..who could easily hang with Horace. Defensively he could plug up the middle. Mad Max was great competition for Jordan..great matchup..Robert Horry really took it to pippen those years as well. Along with a rugged Ellie. Those Rockets turned it up as the comp got tougher. Houstons guards and bench were tough for any team..a point that I always make.

Anyways, who ya got?

[iamgine]

I believe Houston could have beaten the Bulls. The reason being Houston always matched up well with the Bulls and beaten them in the regular season more often than not.

[Miserio]

The team with Michael Jordan

[OldSchoolBBall]

Easily Chicago in 1994. Championship experience, Jordan in his prime, and a more talented team to boot. No way do they lose that series. 1995 is possibly a different story assuming they still lose Grant.

Jordan >= Hakeem
Grant ~= Thorpe
Bulls' role players >= Rockets role players
Pippen >>> anyone on Houston besides Hakeem

That's why the Bulls would win. I'm also not betting against prime Jordan in the playoffs despite how beastly Hakeem was in the '94 postseason. The Bulls were simply the better team: better top player, better talent overall, better coached, more experienced, better offensive system.

[D.J.]

It's hard to go against Hakeem here, even with Jordan playing. Phoenix the year before with Barkley playing with an injured elbow and KJ coming back from missing nearly half the season still took Chicago to 6. Now you have a dominant big man putting up 29/11/4/1.7/4 on 52% shooting. As good a post defender as Grant was, he wasn't stopping Hakeem. Then you have Luc Longley, Scott Williams, and 37 year old Bill Cartwright. MJ at the very least would need another 1993 Finals-esque performance and even that might not be enough. Chicago's post players had no chance of containing Dream.

[gotbacon23]

olajuwon was a beast no doubt about it, but oddly enough, big bill wennington was decently effective on drawing olajuwon away from the hoop in his bulls years.

in his 9 match-ups as a bull versus olajuwon, wennington in 18 minutes per game averaged 9.1 ppg and 5.8 rpg on 48% fg (remember he was a jump shooting big man). This includes 2 double digit wins by the bulls where wennington only played 2 and 5 minutes respectively. Taking aways those 2 games, wennington put up 11.3 ppg and 7.4 rpg on 48% fg in 22.5 mpg.

Point being as the the biggest mismatch the rockets had (olajuwon versus the "dynamic" center four-some of cartwright/perdue/wennington/longley) was definitely in houstons favor but its not like the bulls didn't get any contributions from their big men.

i think the main reason the bulls win (however) is not because of wennington but because jordan/pippens defense on maxwell/smith would render them ineffective.

also, imagine being able to put jordan, pippen, kukoc, and grant on the floor at the same time on offense. this is something they were never able to do because mj retiring and then grant going to orlando. as good as rodman was, grant was vastly superior offensively. houston wouldn't be able to stop all 4 of those guys, despite olajuwon's awesome d.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Gotta lol @ anyone who picks Houston here. Hakeem would not only have to outplay prime Jordan (a feat unto itself), but outplay him to a degree that would nullify the advantage that Pippen has over every Rocket player besides Hakeem/Thorpe (since those two are cancelled out by MJ/Grant). Sorry, but that's NOT going to happen.

[JordanTime]

Easily Chicago in 1994. Championship experience, Jordan in his prime, and a more talented team to boot. No way do they lose that series. 1995 is possibly a different story assuming they still lose Grant.
.

agreed. The Bulls easily win in 1994 against the Rockets.

follow me on http://twitter.com/#!/Jordan23Time

[Smoke117]

Gotta lol @ anyone who picks Houston here. Hakeem would not only have to outplay prime Jordan (a feat unto itself), but outplay him to a degree that would nullify the advantage that Pippen has over every Rocket player besides Hakeem/Thorpe (since those two are cancelled out by MJ/Grant). Sorry, but that's NOT going to happen.

Seriously. I'm actually one who is advocating how underrated Hakeem is but as far as these threads about 94 Bulls with Jordan vs 94 Rockets everyone seems to overrate Olajuwon. Those Rocket teams were not talented enough to beat the Bulls with Jordan...hell the 94 Bulls without Jordan would give them a series because of how tough they were defensively. They would have made it hell on the rest of the team (who had no consistent star offensive players) either way. You let Hakeem get his and you shut down everyone else (if you want, people seem to forget that Scottie Pippen is one of the best help defenders when it comes to helping on the inside and makes up for a shitty center and since Rockets have no serious threat for him to stick to on the perimeter he'd be helping on Dream all day). You throw Jordan in the mix and you have the offense to go with that defense that there is no way The Rockets are getting passed...they just don't have the overall fire power or perimeter defense to beat the Bulls with Jordan.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Gotta lol @ anyone who picks Houston here. Hakeem would not only have to outplay prime Jordan (a feat unto itself), but outplay him to a degree that would nullify the advantage that Pippen has over every Rocket player besides Hakeem/Thorpe (since those two are cancelled out by MJ/Grant). Sorry, but that's NOT going to happen.

Both MJ and Hakeem were unbelievably clutch. I could see the Rockets having more clutch play from their bench..so if it came down to it...in terms of clutch play..Houston has Chicago beat. Having said that, star power goes to the bulls. As you eluded to, Horace and scottie are better than mad max and Thorpe. The knicks took both teams to 7 games. I still think it's pretty close. I'm assuming most of you think the '95 team was better.

[swi7ch]

jordan never lost in his prime (unlike kobe) so it's safe to assume he would've beaten the rockets.

95 doesn't count because that's the year he came back from retirement and was out of shape basketball wise and came bakc halfway through the season. you want proof? he won the championship the following year (and the next two after that) once he had a full preseason.

olajuwon should give mj one of his rings for retiring

[97 bulls]

The bulls would've destroyed the rockets with jordan there. I'm not sure the rockets would've had an easy time vs the bulls without jordan

[millwad]

Some people are really silly, Hakeem beat the same teams Jordan beat when he won his rings. The Bulls feat. Jordan had some tough series vs The Knicks where the series was decided in game 6 and game 7, the same Knicks the Rockets beat in the finals.

The Bulls won close series against the Jazz twice feat. older versions of Malone and Stockton which the Rockets beat both in 94 and 95.

The Rockets swept the same Magic team who earlier in the playoffs won fairly easily vs the Bulls.

The Rockets won easily against Portland who 2 years earlier took their finals vs the Bulls to game 6.

And Hakeem is the only NBA superstar who faced Jordan during all of his title-runs and still didn't have a loosing record vs him. And prior to 1994 Hakeem had a winning record vs MJ if I recall it correctly. The series would have been close..

[97 bulls]

Some people are really silly, Hakeem beat the same teams Jordan beat when he won his rings. The Bulls feat. Jordan had some tough series vs The Knicks where the series was decided in game 6 and game 7, the same Knicks the Rockets beat in the finals.

The Bulls won close series against the Jazz twice feat. older versions of Malone and Stockton which the Rockets beat both in 94 and 95.

The Rockets swept the same Magic team who earlier in the playoffs won fairly easily vs the Bulls.

The Rockets won easily against Portland who 2 years earlier took their finals vs the Bulls to game 6.

And Hakeem is the only NBA superstar who faced Jordan during all of his title-runs and still didn't have a loosing record vs him. And prior to 1994 Hakeem had a winning record vs MJ if I recall it correctly. The series would have been close..
Strong points Milwad. While I still maintain the bulls wouldvee beat houston, that series wouldn't be be cut and dry.

[Deuce Bigalow]

jordan never lost in his prime (unlike kobe) so it's safe to assume he would've beaten the rockets.

95 doesn't count because that's the year he came back from retirement and was out of shape basketball wise and came bakc halfway through the season. you want proof? he won the championship the following year (and the next two after that) once he had a full preseason.

olajuwon should give mj one of his rings for retiring

1984-1990, 1995

[OldSchoolBBall]

The Rockets won easily against Portland who 2 years earlier took their finals vs the Bulls to game 6.


You're kidding yourself because you know damn well the teams don't match up well at all. Portland in 1994 was an entirely different team - Drexler, Porter, and Kersey had fallen off big time by then due to injuries.

[NugzHeat3]

I'm not sure who wins. It is a pretty even match up and the Rockets clearly deserve more credit than they usually get.

The Bulls' players, staff and coaches have noted that the Rockets gave them a lot of trouble in the early 90s. I'm not the one who uses regular season records as evidence but to put it out there, Houston was 5-1 vs Chicago from 1991-93 and some of those games had hype too. For instance, when Houston went to the Chicago stadium with a 11 game W streak while Chicago had a really long undefeated streak at home.

But anyway regular season records aren't indicative of much and this year's Heat vs Bulls series is just one of the many examples.

But it goes beyond that. The Rockets had a lot of versatility with Hakeem and versatility at the center position bothered Chicago. The Spurs were also 5-1 vs Chicago during the first three peat but I won't claim that the Spurs stand a chance because they didn't have a leader or a dominant offensive player (Robinson's face up game was easy to shut down).

We have evidence straight from Jordan's mouth.

On the Rockets vs. Bulls debate

I finally got a chance to talk to Michael Jordan years [later] over at Barkley's house and he thought that the best matchup they would have had during that era was against us because of the way Max used to play him and how our big guys used to dominate their inside.

^This is Rudy T talking.


I want to see how we stand. I haven't played against that team in a couple of years," said Michael Jordan, who was trying to hit a curve ball the last time the Bulls played the Rockets.

"The last couple of times, when I was playing against them . . . they were one of the teams we faced in our three championship years that we really feared. They have so much versatility to the game with (Hakeem) Olajuwon. If we had met them in the playoffs, they would have been a tough challenge. Now I'm looking forward to seeing how well we stack up to a champion."
Pay attention to the bold.


Now that the NBA Finals have turned into a near-rout, the inevitable question is whether any team in the NBA could have been tougher on the Chicago Bulls than Phoenix.

Assistant coach John Bach didn't hesitate when asked the question.

"Oh, we've had our troubles with teams," Bach said. "Look at Houston. They've created a lot of problems for us.

"It's not that we don't have problems. We're mortal."

The Rockets won both meetings with the Bulls this season, by 14 points in Chicago and 11 at The Summit. The Rockets have won five of the six meetings in the last three seasons.

It is interesting to note that the team the Bulls have had the most trouble with in the playoffs, New York, is the team with the best center among opponents Chicago has had to face.

In winning two consecutive championships, the Bulls have faced Kevin Duckworth of Portland and Vlade Divac of the Los Angeles Lakers in the Finals.

Hakeem Olajuwon averaged 23 points and 15 rebounds in the two regular-season meetings against the Bulls this season.



"It was simply the fact they have always been a great team against us, and Hakeem Olajuwon has always played well against us,'' Jackson said.
^From the 1996 match up at Chicago.


After all, the Bulls have lost six out of their last eight games against Houston and the last five at the Summit. And just in case anyone needs reminding, those losses were with Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen.

So what would cause the Bulls' coach to be optimistic in light of not only those numbers, but also the fact that the 9-0 Rockets are the NBA's hottest team and the Bulls are struggling?

The "one-upmanship" said Jackson, hurt the Bulls. "Michael (Jordan) usually got into it," he said, "and it was usually a Michael-(Hakeem) Olajuwon thing. (They came out in) the same draft year, both of them were MVP players and it basically got to a point where it was not the most successful place for him because Vernon Maxwell is a thorn in our side and it got to be one of those kind of games."
^From the first few games of the 1994 season when the Rockets had that 15-0 streak.


The Rockets themselves would have loved to have proven everybody wrong.

"There should be no doubt or label of fluke on our championships," said Hakeem Olajuwon. "As for Michael Jordan, a lot of people don't know and never looked up our matchups with Chicago during that time. If you check the records, you'll see that we beat them on a consistent basis when Michael was playing and winning his first three championships.

"(Vernon) Maxwell guarded Michael and gave him problems. In '95, we would have had Mario Elie on him. They didn't have anyone who could contain me. Chicago was never a problem for us. We always looked forward to playing them. A lot of people don't realize that."

The Rockets, in fact, had a 5-1 record vs. Jordan and the Bulls from 1991 through 1993, the span of Chicago's first "three-peat."

After a loss on his home floor at Chicago Stadium in 1993, Jordan said, "We have no answer for the big guy. It's a good thing they won't ever make it to the (NBA) Finals, because I don't think we could beat them."

^Straight from Jordan's mouth. Whether he was being facetious with the comment, we won't know but we know the Bulls can't handle the Dream. :pimp:

Personally, I think it could go either way. One of my biggest regrets is not getting to see the Bulls vs Rockets match up in 1993. The Rockets were robbed that year. That would have been a nice match up.

Contrary to the 1997 match up which I feel the Bulls would have won without much trouble because the Rockets were way too slow and methodical of a team. Their lack of athleticism and PG would also get exposed by the Bulls pressure defense. I used to think the 1997 Rockets along with the 1998 Lakers could have beat the Bulls but I don't find that to be the case now.

The 1993 Rockets had athleticism and could very well play a running game; young Horry, Thorpe, Maxwell were all underrated athletes who had game. The Dream was on a mission that year. I've downloaded a few games with their Seattle series that year; he was having an insane amount of impact.

The Bulls were great at adjusting to teams though. That

[OldSchoolBBall]

I'm not sure who wins. It is a pretty even match up and the Rockets clearly deserve more credit than they usually get.

How is it an even matchup:

Jordan >= Hakeem
Grant ~= Thorpe
Bulls role players >= Houston role players
Pippen >>> ???

Plus Chicago had championship experience, better coaching, a better system, and the GOAT in his prime. Certainly not an "even match up" by any means. They were more talented overall, had coaching and experience working in their favor, and had the best player on the floor.

[millwad]

How is it an even matchup:

Jordan >= Hakeem
Grant ~= Thorpe
Bulls role players >= Houston role players
Pippen >>> ???

Plus Chicago had championship experience, better coaching, a better system, and the GOAT in his prime. Certainly not an "even match up" by any means. They were more talented overall, had coaching and experience working in their favor, and had the best player on the floor.


Did you even read the guy's post?:facepalm
If it would be such a horrible match-up and if the Bulls would have been so much better than the Rockets they wouldn't have had a loosing record vs the Rockets during their first 3-peat..

And since when do you match up a center vs a guard? Basketball is all about match-ups and Rockets was a difficult match-up for the Bulls. If MJ will tell you that, then I take his word over some random poster on ISH..

[OldSchoolBBall]

I love how Rockets homers cling to a couple of meaningless regular season games spread over 2-3 seasons and overlook the vast difference in talent, coaching, execution, and championship experience, all of which are FAR more relevant when discussing who would win a hypothetical playoff matchup.

Houston has virtually no chance of winning that series. Probabilities below:

Bulls in 4 games: 5-10% chance
Bulls in 5 games: 15-20% chance
Bulls in 6 games: 40-50% chance
Bulls in 7 games: 15-20% chance

Houston in any number of games: < 10% chance

[NugzHeat3]

How is it an even matchup:

Jordan >= Hakeem
Grant ~= Thorpe
Bulls role players >= Houston role players
Pippen >>> ???

Plus Chicago had championship experience, better coaching, a better system, and the GOAT in his prime. Certainly not an "even match up" by any means. They were more talented overall, had coaching and experience working in their favor, and had the best player on the floor.
Lets see.

1994 Suns vs Rockets

KJ > Smith
Majerle > Maxwell
Ceballos > Horry
Barkley > Thorpe
Hakeem > Oliver Miller

AC Greeen and Danny Ainge also give the edge to the Suns bench.

Suns have the edge in experience which was evident when the Rockets blew the first two games at home with double digit leads in each game and were called choke city by their own paper.

The fact is the game goes beyond match ups and who had the more experience. Seems like you have trouble grasping that.

And keep ignoring what the Bulls noted about the Rockets. Next time I discuss the Rockets vs Bulls, I'll be sure to mention you and your compelling argument as to why the Bulls would "easily" come out on top.

[NugzHeat3]

I love how Rockets homers cling to a couple of meaningless regular season games spread over 2-3 seasons and overlook the vast difference in talent, coaching, execution, and championship experience, all of which are FAR more relevant when discussing who would win a hypothetical playoff matchup.

Houston has virtually no chance of winning that series. Probabilities below:

Bulls in 4 games: 5-10% chance
Bulls in 5 games: 15-20% chance
Bulls in 6 games: 40-50% chance
Bulls in 7 games: 15-20% chance

Houston in any number of games: < 10% chance
I don't remember the Bulls ever noting the Spurs as a tough match up despite the Spurs going 5-1 against them during the first three peat as well.

Wonder why. :rolleyes:

None of the factors you listed are as important as what the Bulls players and coaches said about the match up. You don't think they're considering what you're telling us?

[millwad]

I love how Rockets homers cling to a couple of meaningless regular season games spread over 2-3 seasons and overlook the vast difference in talent, coaching, execution, and championship experience, all of which are FAR more relevant when discussing who would win a hypothetical playoff matchup.

Houston has virtually no chance of winning that series. Probabilities below:

Bulls in 4 games: 5-10% chance
Bulls in 5 games: 15-20% chance
Bulls in 6 games: 40-50% chance
Bulls in 7 games: 15-20% chance

Houston in any number of games: < 10% chance

2-3 seasons? Hakeem had a winning record vs MJ over their whole careers and even though it's only a one win difference it still is some proof that the Rockets was a difficult matchup for MJ and the Bulls. And yes, no one should stare blind on same regular season wins but it's still a fact that the Rockets was a difficult matchup. And it's pretty funny that you think the difference is so huge when the Rockets beat alot of the teams and players Jordan faced during his championshipruns..:facepalm

During their back-to-back the Rockets faced the Jazz twice and won, they faced the Suns twice and won, they faced the Knicks and won, they faced Orlando and won (they won vs back from retirement Jordan and the Bulls, minus a decent PF). All of those teams were teams who caused problems for the Bulls.

[NugzHeat3]

2-3 seasons? Hakeem had a winning record vs MJ over their whole careers. And it's pretty fun that you think the difference is so huge when the Rockets beat alot of the teams and players Jordan faced during his championshipruns..:facepalm

During their back-to-back the Rockets faced the Jazz twice and won, they faced the Suns twice and won, they faced the Knicks and won, they faced Orlando and won (they won vs back from retirement Jordan and the Bulls, minus a decent PF). All of those teams were teams who caused problems for the Bulls.
Apparently his own opinion is worth a lot more than everybody elses.

The funny thing is I'd bet there was something that caused the Bulls to consider them a tough match up and it all came from those "meaningless" regular season games.

If I'd look hard enough, I could find teams that they struggled against in the season but still didn't acknowledge as tough of a team as Houston.

Off the top of my head, they went 0-2 vs Utah in 1998 and the 1-5 record against San Antonio is also a clear example.

[guy]

During their back-to-back the Rockets faced the Jazz twice and won, they faced the Suns twice and won, they faced the Knicks and won, they faced Orlando and won (they won vs back from retirement Jordan and the Bulls, minus a decent PF). All of those teams were teams who caused problems for the Bulls.

Not sure why this matters since the Bulls beat those teams. At best they would've been there toughest matchup. It doesn't mean they would've beaten them.

[millwad]

Not sure why this matters since the Bulls beat those teams. At best they would've been there toughest matchup.

It matters because the Rockets beat those teams and players as well and it wasn't like the Bulls abused those teams, they had tough series against those teams.

[guy]

The only discussion should really be only between 94 and 95. The Rockets in the Bulls championship years never really came close to even making the Finals except in 1997, and that team was way too old, past their prime, and injury prone to have a great chance against the Bulls.

[NugzHeat3]

The only discussion should really be only between 94 and 95. The Rockets in the Bulls championship years never really came close to even making the Finals except in 1997, and that team was way too old, past their prime, and injury prone to have a great chance against the Bulls.
1993.

I agree in general though. I've seen a few games of that 1997 Rockets team and I find them to be overrated. They were too reliant on feeding the post and then waiting for the double team so there would be a lot of standing around which would stagnate the offense. No athleticism whatsoever.

A guy like Matt Maloney would flat-out get harassed by someone like Pippen and that would be fastbreak galore for the Bulls team. Mario Elie was kind of a weak ball handler as well so the Bulls press would have their way. Their defense was quite poor as well.

In 1996 and 1998, they were too injured and would get mopped off the floor in a hypothetical match up.

In 1991 and 1992, they have the same advantage and match up problems but they'd lose because that team had no leader or identity. Hakeem was having problems with the management and they didn't quite have the offense with Hakeem as the focal point.

But everything came together for them in 1993 and they'd certainly cause the Bulls problems that year. I have no doubt that team gets to the finals if they weren't robbed against Seattle.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It matters because the Rockets beat those teams and players as well and it wasn't like the Bulls abused those teams, they had tough series against those teams.

MJ wasn't doing as much for his teams like Hakeem was, imo. He wasn't the Bulls' best passer or rebounder for the bulk of his career...and.. in his prime had to anchor a defense, pull down double-digit rebounds a night, grab a couple stls a game, block 3+ shots and lead his team in scoring year in and out; I'd of like to see MJ keep up these scoring (team) titles...

But of course.. fulfilling ALL those functions year in and out would be DETRIMENTAL to his scoring title success and possibly Chicago's chances of winning titles because he was INCAPABLE of doing so...whereas, Olajuwon was FORCED to do inorder for his team(s) to be successful.

[OldSchoolBBall]

MJ wasn't doing as much for his teams like Hakeem was, imo. He wasn't the Bulls' best passer or rebounder for the bulk of his career...and.. in his prime had to anchor a defense, pull down double-digit rebounds a night, grab a couple stls a game, block 3+ shots and lead his team in scoring year in and out; I'd of like to see MJ keep up these scoring (team) titles...

But of course.. fulfilling ALL those functions year in and out would be DETRIMENTAL to his scoring title success and possibly Chicago's chances of winning titles because he was INCAPABLE of doing so...whereas, Olajuwon was FORCED to do inorder for his team(s) to be successful.

Yes, Olajuwon was just THAT amazing! GOAT! :eek: :bowdown: :rolleyes:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yes, Olajuwon was just THAT amazing! GOAT! :eek: :bowdown: :rolleyes:

From '94-95 he was the best I ever saw.

[guy]

MJ wasn't doing as much for his teams like Hakeem was, imo. He wasn't the Bulls' best passer or rebounder for the bulk of his career...and.. in his prime had to anchor a defense, pull down double-digit rebounds a night, grab a couple stls a game, block 3+ shots and lead his team in scoring year in and out; I'd of like to see MJ keep up these scoring (team) titles...

But of course.. fulfilling ALL those functions year in and out would be DETRIMENTAL to his scoring title success and possibly Chicago's chances of winning titles because he was INCAPABLE of doing so...whereas, Olajuwon was FORCED to do inorder for his team(s) to be successful.

LOL Jordan WAS his team's best passer for the bulk of his career, was the best their best defender up until his first retirement, and was their 2nd or 3rd best rebounder despite being a guard.

Your second paragraph is laughable. Despite having to shoulder such a scoring load, Jordan never shied away from any aspect of the game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LOL Jordan WAS his team's best passer for the bulk of his career, was the best their best defender up until his first retirement, and was their 2nd or 3rd best rebounder despite being a guard.

From '92-98, I thought Pippen was better. I'll admit, I overstated claiming he wasn't for the 'bulk of his career'.


Your second paragraph is laughable. Despite having to shoulder such a scoring load, Jordan never shied away from any aspect of the game.

Laughable? What?... He didn't have to do as much as Olajuwon. What did MadMax, Thorpe and Kenny Smith do without Hakeem in their careers? NADA, ZILCH. Maxwell and Kenny Smith never saw out of the 1st round in their careers without Hakeem. Horry left Houston and couldn't even last 1/2 a season with Phoenix.

[guy]

From '92-98, I thought Pippen was better. I'll admit, I overstated claiming he wasn't for the 'bulk of his career'.

Defender maybe. He's never been a better passer. Just cause he was there point forward does not mean he was.



Laughable? What?... He didn't have to do as much as Olajuwon. What did MadMax, Thorpe and Kenny Smith do without Hakeem in their careers? NADA, ZILCH. Maxwell and Kenny Smith never saw out of the 1st round in their careers without Hakeem. Horry left Houston and couldn't even last 1/2 a season with Phoenix.

The notion that he didn't do more cause it was detrimental to his scoring title is laughable. The notion that he shied away at all is laughable.

[Carbine]

If there is one thing that this past finals would've proven to us, it's that championship series cannot be viewed as:

*insert player here* >>> *insert players here*

etc, etc, like OLDSCHOOLBBALL is doing. That's not the way it works.

Rockets clearly did not have a more talented team player for player, but depending on who makes or misses their shots, how the stars play, refs, etc...nobody knows. It's foolish to do what OLDSCHOOL was doing and quite frankly, he should know better because he's not an idiot teenager like most people here.

There's a legit chance the Rockets win a series against the Bulls.

[L.Kizzle]

Lets see.

1994 Suns vs Rockets

KJ > Smith
Majerle > Maxwell
Ceballos > Horry
Barkley > Thorpe
Hakeem > Oliver Miller

AC Greeen and Danny Ainge also give the edge to the Suns bench.

Suns have the edge in experience which was evident when the Rockets blew the first two games at home with double digit leads in each game and were called choke city by their own paper.

The fact is the game goes beyond match ups and who had the more experience. Seems like you have trouble grasping that.

And keep ignoring what the Bulls noted about the Rockets. Next time I discuss the Rockets vs Bulls, I'll be sure to mention you and your compelling argument as to why the Bulls would "easily" come out on top.
That is correct. It is safe to say the Rockets lose every match-up in those 94 playoffs beside the center position.

Portland
Strickland > Smith
Drexler > Maxwell
Robinson > Horry
Williams = Thorpe
Grant or Dudley < Olajuwon

Suns
see above post

Jazz
Stockton > Smith
Hornacek > Maxwell
Russell < Horry
Malone > Thorpe
Spencer < Olajuwon

Knicks
Harper > Smith
Starks > Maxwell
Mason > Horry
Oakley > Thorhe
Ewing < Olajuwon

[OldSchoolBBall]

From '94-95 he was the best I ever saw.

lmao

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The notion that he didn't do more cause it was detrimental to his scoring title is laughable. The notion that he shied away at all is laughable.

No, what I'm saying if he did as much as Hakeem, he'd either A) sacrifice a scoring title, or B) do more harm than good attaining better all-around stats; his usage % would be miles ahead of anyone else in history..assuming he continues to score at the same rate. There's nothing laughable about that, unless of course you're a Jocker.

Olajuwon as a first and singular option during those years, Guy..was too much for any team..especially one without a center like those mid 90's Bulls. It would take a Cartwright elbow to the eye socket..to stop Hakeem those years. At the time...I am sorry to say...and I can say this without joking..Hakeem was the best player I have ever seen lace them up, period. Many say this. That was better than anything I saw MJ, Kareem or Bird do...and I am a huge fan of all of them. What he did out there vs the comp just at his own position..was spectacular.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

lmao

Yes, it's hilarious that you didn't have a response for NugzHeats' post.

[OldSchoolBBall]

How did Jordan "not do as much" as Hakeem? He scored significantly more, assisted significantly more, was one of the best guard rebounders of all time, and was one of the best defenders of all time. No one - not Hakeem, not anyone - exerted more energy on the court than '85-'93 Jordan on both ends. That's what he was known for, actually - his stamina and energy level.

[StarJordan]

Bulls had a pretty easy time sweeping champion houston rockets with Hakeem in '96 as i recall

[L.Kizzle]

Bulls had a pretty easy time sweeping champion houston rockets with Hakeem in '96 as i recall
Gained Rodman

Lost Smith

[iamgine]

Rockets record against Bulls from 1990-1993 (Threepeat era)

5 wins - 1 loss

If regular season is any indication, it's not too much to think they'd have a decent winning chance.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How did Jordan "not do as much" as Hakeem?

If Hakeem tried to put up 41 ppg in the finals during his run.,.the rockets would have lost..let me explain why..who again did MJ face in the 1993 finals? Thunder dan, ainge and KJ? Seriously..all perennial first ballot HOF players and all nba players at the SG spot right? and def first teamers? Now lets look at who Hakeem was facing..Patrick and Shaq? Perennial all stars and all nba centers...titanic matchups..all with Hakeem getting next to no help down low..so if he went out there and forget about team ball to stat pad 40 ppg..his defense would have suffered. There was no, horace and scottie..along with the elbow shivers of a dirty Bill cartwright waiting for folks. Thorpe was good..but come on..all def players in scottie and horace? Scottie especially..who could guard MJ's men..who did Hakeem have to do that..Matt Bullard? :oldlol: Come on, gimme a break!!!...I posted something similar to this just a day ago.

I am not hating on Jordan, Oldschoollbball..not at all. I do not want to argue with anyone..its not what I posted here for. I like most of your posts here...especially when you educate the Bryant-brigade. I understand you may not like what I say and I am ok with that..we all have our opinions. I just believe Hakeem's two year finals journey is the greatest run by one player I have ever seen. Nothing compares in my opinion.

[OldSchoolBBall]

No one denies that Hakeem had some epic matchups, but so did MJ (Magic, Drexler). Even if Hakeem had tougher matchups (and I would agree he did), that doesnt mean he exerted more energy on the court than MJ did, because that's just not true.

[Fatal9]

No one denies that Hakeem had some epic matchups, but so did MJ (Magic, Drexler). Even if Hakeem had tougher matchups (and I would agree he did), that doesnt mean he exerted more energy on the court than MJ did, because that's just not true.
lol @ how clueless you are. I don't know if I've ever seen a player exert as much energy as Hakeem did in some of those years. '93 stands out specifically. He did EVERYTHING on both ends. Score 25-30 a game, rebound like a mad man, be the focal point of the entire offense (he was the guy who created plays for everyone on the team, there were no playmakers). And on defense? He'd go out and cover screen and rolls like a KG, then hustle back to the paint and block shots, he'd be the first guy chasing the ball, he'd challenge every shot that went up anywhere near him, he'd always come up with loose balls...it's actually the one thing I respect most about him. Commentators regularly called Hakeem "Mr. Hustle".


Here's just one example (could say this for every game of the playoffs, dude averaged 26/14/5/5 for fuks sake, his team depended on him for everything on both ends and MJ was exerting more energy?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E

you're a fukkin clown who thinks Jordan is in his own league in everything.

[kaiiu]

Rockets

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

lol @ how clueless you are. I don't know if I've ever seen a player exert as much energy as Hakeem did in some of those years. '93 stands out specifically. He did EVERYTHING on both ends. Score 25-30 a game, rebound like a mad man, be the focal point of the entire offense (he was the guy who created plays for everyone on the team, there were no playmakers). And on defense? He'd go out and cover screen and rolls like a KG, then hustle back to the paint and block shots, he'd be the first guy chasing the ball, he'd challenge every shot that went up anywhere near him, he'd always come up with loose balls...it's actually the one thing I respect most about him. Commentators regularly called Hakeem "Mr. Hustle".


Here's just one example (could say this for every game of the playoffs, dude averaged 26/14/5/5 for fuks sake, his team depended on him for everything on both ends and MJ was exerting more energy?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E

you're a fukkin clown who thinks Jordan is in his own league in everything.

I don't get why its such laughable opinion. When did it become hysterical to believe Hakeem had the greatest 2-year stretch in history?

I'm lost..when someone tells me Jordan is the greatest player of all-time, I don't have a problem with that train of thought, I MAY NOT AGREE WITH A GOAT, but saying MJ is the greatest ever isn't a stupid mindset at all.

[BigBalla44]

I don't get why its such laughable opinion. When did it become hysterical to believe Hakeem had the greatest 2-year stretch in history?

I'm lost..when someone tells me Jordan is the greatest player of all-time, I don't have a problem with that train of thought, I MAY NOT AGREE WITH A GOAT, but saying MJ is the greatest ever isn't a stupid mindset at all.

Fatal is a contrarian when MJ is involved. A very narcissistic person when it comes to this forum. The guy thinks he is the smartest dude when it comes to basketball and likes to argue things for the sake of arguing. As far as MJ, I dont know if it comes from the need to go against the majority to prove how smart he is or if he's just a Kobe lover masquerading as a true bball fan. Case in point, he will always argue certain things against MJ but not hold the same standards for Kobe.

Anyways, the dude is still an underclassman in college. As if he saw MJ or Hakeem play, its hilarious.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Fatal takes contrarian position when MJ is involved. A very narcissistic person when it comes to this forum. The guy thinks he is the smartest dude when it comes to basketball and likes to argue things for the sake of arguing. As far as MJ, I dont know if it comes from the need to go against the majority to prove how smart he is or if he's just a veiled Kobe lover masquerading as a true bball fan. Case in point, he will always argue certain things against MJ but not hold the same standards for Kobe.

Anyways, the dude is still an underclassman in college. As if he saw MJ or Hakeem play, its hilarious.

Dude...I'm actually talking about Oldschoolbball's post. This guy just scoffs at the idea of Hakeem having arguably the greatest 2 year peak we've seen. Even "laughed his ass off". Fatal9 may have an axe to grind with Mj and his fans, but I think he's a solid poster more often than not..at least compared to the trash that just waste this forum's bandwidth.

[Soundwave]

Assuming this in under the context that Jordan took off a few months to recharge his batteries and grieve his father and then returned to basketball shortly after say Christmas --

The Bulls. In six.

No doubt.

The '94 Bulls would be better than the '93 Bulls.

The addition of Kukoc + maturation of BJ Armstrong + Jordan added back into the mix would make them better.

Arguably that squad would have more talent than any of the 1st 3-peat Bulls.

[gcvbcat]

olajuwon should give mj one of his rings for retiring

those 2 rings should have astrixs beside them
the bulls (with jordan & pippen) were too good in the 90s

[BigBalla44]

Dude...I'm actually talking about Oldschoolbball's post. This guy just scoffs at the idea of Hakeem having arguably the greatest 2 year peak we've seen. Even "laughed his ass off". Fatal9 may have an axe to grind with Mj and his fans, but I think he's a solid poster more often than not..at least compared to the trash that just waste this forum's bandwidth.

I agree that fatal9 is a good poster. Knowledgeable but biased.

[millwad]

I agree that fatal9 is a good poster. Knowledgeable but biased.

And we are supposed to believe that you're unbiased?:facepalm
He didn't even mention Jordan in any negative or less valid way..

[NugzHeat3]

Rockets record against Bulls from 1990-1993 (Threepeat era)

5 wins - 1 loss

If regular season is any indication, it's not too much to think they'd have a decent winning chance.
Regular season is not generally an indication. Too many times teams don't take the other seriously.

Its what the Bulls noted about the Rockets; that's the major indication so we know that something about that Rockets squad bothered Chicago.
lol @ how clueless you are. I don't know if I've ever seen a player exert as much energy as Hakeem did in some of those years. '93 stands out specifically. He did EVERYTHING on both ends. Score 25-30 a game, rebound like a mad man, be the focal point of the entire offense (he was the guy who created plays for everyone on the team, there were no playmakers). And on defense? He'd go out and cover screen and rolls like a KG, then hustle back to the paint and block shots, he'd be the first guy chasing the ball, he'd challenge every shot that went up anywhere near him, he'd always come up with loose balls...it's actually the one thing I respect most about him. Commentators regularly called Hakeem "Mr. Hustle".


Here's just one example (could say this for every game of the playoffs, dude averaged 26/14/5/5 for fuks sake, his team depended on him for everything on both ends and MJ was exerting more energy?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E

you're a fukkin clown who thinks Jordan is in his own league in everything.
Agreed. Hakeem's 1993 year and that 1993 Rockets squad is the most underrated team of the 90s. I've never seen anyone bring them up when they discuss the best team not to win during the Jordan era.

That upload is amazing. You have probably seen the first few games of that series vs Seattle. Hakeem was just all over the floor but since he was matched up with Perkins, he couldn't stay home on him and Perkins killed them from deep in the 4th quarter of game 2. Seattle also kept making buzzerbeater after buzzerbeater at the end of literally each quarter. I remember Eddie Johnson's 70 foot heave.

So in game 3, Rudy T called Hakeem to guard Shawn Kemp so he could guard the paint and help out; it was amazing watching Kemp (not prime but still all-star and explosive as ever) get flat-out shut down by Hakeem.

Hakeem was just as good in 1993 as he was in 1994 and 1995 and the amount of work and energy he spent in those years is equal to Jordan's or anyone elses. Its hard to do more than what he did during those years. All you have to do watch is watch him. He rarely, if ever, took plays off on either end of the floor.

[guy]

No, what I'm saying if he did as much as Hakeem, he'd either A) sacrifice a scoring title, or B) do more harm than good attaining better all-around stats; his usage % would be miles ahead of anyone else in history..assuming he continues to score at the same rate. There's nothing laughable about that, unless of course you're a Jocker.

Olajuwon as a first and singular option during those years, Guy..was too much for any team..especially one without a center like those mid 90's Bulls. It would take a Cartwright elbow to the eye socket..to stop Hakeem those years. At the time...I am sorry to say...and I can say this without joking..Hakeem was the best player I have ever seen lace them up, period. Many say this. That was better than anything I saw MJ, Kareem or Bird do...and I am a huge fan of all of them. What he did out there vs the comp just at his own position..was spectacular.

Ummm, Jordan had years in the late 80s/early 90s of 35/6/6/3/2, 33/8/8/3/1, 34/7/6/3/1, 32/6/6/3/1, 30/6/6/2/1, and 33/7/6/3/1 and usually at a greater efficiency then Hakeem despite being a guard, and while exerting a ton of energy defensively and being the most clutch player in the league. What more did you expect him to do? How is that any less impressive then Hakeem and how does that sound like he had a lighter load and was able to contribute less to his team?

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ how clueless you are. I don't know if I've ever seen a player exert as much energy as Hakeem did in some of those years. '93 stands out specifically. He did EVERYTHING on both ends. Score 25-30 a game, rebound like a mad man, be the focal point of the entire offense (he was the guy who created plays for everyone on the team, there were no playmakers). And on defense? He'd go out and cover screen and rolls like a KG, then hustle back to the paint and block shots, he'd be the first guy chasing the ball, he'd challenge every shot that went up anywhere near him, he'd always come up with loose balls...it's actually the one thing I respect most about him. Commentators regularly called Hakeem "Mr. Hustle".


Here's just one example (could say this for every game of the playoffs, dude averaged 26/14/5/5 for fuks sake, his team depended on him for everything on both ends and MJ was exerting more energy?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E

you're a fukkin clown who thinks Jordan is in his own league in everything.

Right, which is why MJ was known for his insane energy level and stamina and Hakeem wasn't. Except by dullards like you who would like to act like Hakeem was MJ's equal in retrospect. :oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

I think NugsHeat nailed it. The Rockets would have been the other half of the 90's version of the Celtics Lakers rivalry. It would have been a 3 year war from 93-95. Had Houston beaten Chicago in 1993, Jordan would never have retired.

The only guy that could have matched Jordan step for step in a playoff situation was Hakeem Olajuwon. I mean that to say, match him not only in terms of productivity and efficiency, but leadership, clutch ability and having the understanding of when to turn it up to a certain level at the biggest moment. Meaning...if the situation called for Hakeem to put up 40 and 20 to win a game, he could have. If the situation called for 9 blocks, he could have given it. If the Rockets needed a go-to guy, he was it. There was more to Jordan that the numbers indicate. He knew when to turn it on and had the capability to do so. When you felt like you've seen the best of Jordan, he could go higher for a five minute stretch that could put the game completely out of reach. Hakeem could match him in that area from the center position. It would have been fascinating to watch these two guys lead their teams into a Game 5 situation where both teams are tied 2-2. Think Jordan's Game 5 jewel vs the Knicks in the 1993 ECF against Hakeem's masterpiece Game 5 vs the Jazz in the 1995 First Round. This would have been Magic vs Bird part deux.

The Rockets main advantage would have been Hakeem Olajuwon, obviously. Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell are sh*t by themselves, but with Olajuwon on the floor they are potent threats. Robert Horry, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell were ALL players that knocked down clutch shots for the Rockets at some point in the playoffs. Every player on the floor was a guy that could deliver in crunch time. You double Hakeem and he'll make Elie look like Danny Ainge. They are the type of team that would have pushed Chicago to the absolute limit and maybe even beaten them.

The Bulls had a few more advantages, though.
1) The coaching staff was the absolute best I've ever seen.
2) Jordan and Pippen were maybe the two smartest players in the league. They had chemistry, they knew how to complement each other's strengths and hide each other's weaknesses. So what you have is an EXTENSION of the coaching staff on the floor. Yet they were smart enough to evaluate the game situation and overrule what the coaches wanted them to do. This is important because it eliminates the need to call a timeout to change strategy.
3) Michael Jordan -- will get back to him in a second

Regular season games mean next to nothing. I've been following basketball since 1987 and I know this to be true. Teams, especially championship teams, only care about the playoffs. Those regular season games meant a lot more to Houston than they did to the Bulls. It's different playing someone in a game of HORSE when you're visiting their home versus playing them best of seven when your wife and children are watching and $1000 is riding on the winner. The first situation is a game. The second is about PRIDE. I think a formidable challenge to Houston would be their ability to adjust to the Bulls adjustments. This is on some Roger Federer type sh*t when he was on top of his game. His greatest advantage was adjusting to you faster than you could adjust to him. I've seen Lleyton Hewitt, Andy Roddick and Marat Safin come up with a game plan that would have him shook for a set and a half. Roger would make an adjustment and quickly whisk them off the court in 4 sets. Why? Because when Roger made his adjustment, those guys needed to huddle with their coach to make a counter-adjustment (which is forbidden in tennis)...so they had to wait until the next match to employ that strategy. Almost the same thing here... The Bulls were smart and they got smarter with each game. Those 10-2 runs by the Bulls would prove to be hard to deal with because Houston wouldn't be able to adjust on the court without calling a timeout. And when they did call timeout, I think the Bulls coaching staff would have a significant advantage over Rudy T's guys. Game to game, maybe it's close to even...but timeout to timeout I think the Bulls steal a couple of points here and there because they could adjust faster than Houston could. And that might be the difference.

If the Rockets played the Bulls, their best chance to beat them would be the first time, in this case 1993. The element of surprise (you cannot "prepare" for The Dream)...those long championship seasons along with the Dream Team experience for Jordan and Pippen that preceded that year took a little bit of life out of the Bulls...normal championship arrogance that creeps into any team that's used to winning...and the Disease of More (Grant was already becoming an irritant this year and there was a little more infighting plus the controversies surrounding The Jordan Rules and Jordan's gambling) all could have compromised the Bulls enough to not be able to withstand the Rockets' challenge.

However, IF this happened I do think the Bulls would have won the next two years for 2 reasons. 1) Chicago is more motivated and given a full year to think on it, would have found a way to neutralize the Rockets strength and exposed their weaknesses. And 2) Michael Jordan. He would have never retired had the Bulls lost in 1993. Furthermore, 1994 would have been an ANGRY Michael Jordan. If he comes back in 1994 to avenge a loss to Houston, we may all be talking about 1994 being his best year ever. People always talk about Jordan didn't do this and he didn't do that...weak league...he didn't face any competition... I think we missed Jordan reaching an even higher level BECAUSE he didn't lose. The man needed competition like the Decepticons needed Energon Cubes. He RETIRED because he didn't feel like there was any competition out there (conspiracy theorists go home). Before coming back, he peppered BJ Armstong about players like Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway and Latrell Spreewell to gauge the competition. He even arranged to "work out" with the Golden State Warriors in order to get a better look at Spreewell. :oldlol: The man was driven by his insane need to compete.

We saw what he was capable of doing after missing damn near two seasons riding a bus in the backwoods of Alabama. Imagine that same drive and focus inside a body that never lost that basketball tuning. Even worse, he lost on the grand stage with everyone watching. Hakeem took Jordan's money in front of his wife and children. :eek: Took his title on the grandest stage AND is named the best player in the NBA? The King is Dead, Long Live the King type of sh*t??? Like Clay Davis said on The Wire...SHeeeeeeeeeeIT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUjh9Id6Id8). There is no way the Bulls don't win in 1994. From 1993 to 1994, the Bulls would have had an angry Jordan, an angry team (I had to separate them for reasons I hope you understand), a coaching staff that would have had a year to adjust and a front office that would have wanted to fill in any holes that were exposed. And I don't think they lose in 1995 either. By that point the Bulls would have locked in on the Rockets tendencies. I know the Rockets had some personnel advantages, but after 2 playoff series, the Bulls would have locked in on how well they adjust, their tendencies in certain situations and for any other mental flaw that can be exposed only in the playoffs. They wouldn't have lost 2 out of 3 against the Rockets.

When all is said and done, I'm putting my money on the best coaching staff and the smartest two leaders (as opposed to just one in Houston). In one playoff series, I don't know. But in a 3 year war, I'm not betting against Michael Jordan in his prime. Hakeem might have gotten him once, but not more than that.

[guy]

1993.

I agree in general though. I've seen a few games of that 1997 Rockets team and I find them to be overrated. They were too reliant on feeding the post and then waiting for the double team so there would be a lot of standing around which would stagnate the offense. No athleticism whatsoever.

A guy like Matt Maloney would flat-out get harassed by someone like Pippen and that would be fastbreak galore for the Bulls team. Mario Elie was kind of a weak ball handler as well so the Bulls press would have their way. Their defense was quite poor as well.

In 1996 and 1998, they were too injured and would get mopped off the floor in a hypothetical match up.

In 1991 and 1992, they have the same advantage and match up problems but they'd lose because that team had no leader or identity. Hakeem was having problems with the management and they didn't quite have the offense with Hakeem as the focal point.

But everything came together for them in 1993 and they'd certainly cause the Bulls problems that year. I have no doubt that team gets to the finals if they weren't robbed against Seattle.

Sure they'd cause problems. I doubt they'd beat them though. Your bringing up them being robbed in game 7 vs. the Sonics. Robbed or not, that series still went 7 games. And if they beat the Sonics, they would've had to face the Suns next. They had problems with worse versions of the Suns for the next 2 years who took them to 7 games both times despite being better versions of themselves. I'd say 95 Rockets > 94 Rockets > 93 Rockets and 93 Suns > 94 Suns > 95 Suns.

I don't think the amount of games a series goes is always a good gauge of how close two teams are (really, there's not necessarily that much of a difference between a series going 6 games vs. 7 games cause a team could easily lose or win one more game), but I think its worth noting here since a bunch of people here have noted how both the Bulls and Rockets did against certain teams. I don't really think it supports their argument much.

I hear the biggest argument for the Rockets is that the Bulls had no center to matchup against Hakeem, but that doesn't hold much weight IMO. Using the long series vs the Sonics and Suns as an example or not, those were arguably the toughest opponents for the Rockets. There was really only one other matchup with an elite center that was just as tough and that was the Knicks, but they completely dominated vs. the Spurs and Magic, who had Robinson and Shaq.

And you always hear that the Sonics were the Rockets kryptonite. They never faced them in the POs during there back-to-back titles. IMO you can argue that the Sonics and Bulls were somewhat similar because of their elite perimeter defense, good rebounding, and reliance primarily on a duo, except the Bulls were much better in almost every regard. Bulls were like a supercharged version of the Sonics. If the Sonics were able to dominate them, I don't see why the Bulls couldn't.

[guy]

I think NugsHeat nailed it. The Rockets would have been the other half of the 90's version of the Celtics Lakers rivalry. It would have been a 3 year war from 93-95. Had Houston beaten Chicago in 1993, Jordan would never have retired.

The only guy that could have matched Jordan step for step in a playoff situation was Hakeem Olajuwon. I mean that to say, match him not only in terms of productivity and efficiency, but leadership, clutch ability and having the understanding of when to turn it up to a certain level at the biggest moment. Meaning...if the situation called for Hakeem to put up 40 and 20 to win a game, he could have. If the situation called for 9 blocks, he could have given it. If the Rockets needed a go-to guy, he was it. There was more to Jordan that the numbers indicate. He knew when to turn it on and had the capability to do so. When you felt like you've seen the best of Jordan, he could go higher for a five minute stretch that could put the game completely out of reach. Hakeem could match him in that area from the center position. It would have been fascinating to watch these two guys lead their teams into a Game 5 situation where both teams are tied 2-2. Think Jordan's Game 5 jewel vs the Knicks in the 1993 ECF against Hakeem's masterpiece Game 5 vs the Jazz in the 1995 First Round. This would have been Magic vs Bird part deux.

The Rockets main advantage would have been Hakeem Olajuwon, obviously. Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell are sh*t by themselves, but with Olajuwon on the floor they are potent threats. Robert Horry, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell were ALL players that knocked down clutch shots for the Rockets at some point in the playoffs. Every player on the floor was a guy that could deliver in crunch time. You double Hakeem and he'll make Elie look like Danny Ainge. They are the type of team that would have pushed Chicago to the absolute limit and maybe even beaten them.

The Bulls had a few more advantages, though.
1) The coaching staff was the absolute best I've ever seen.
2) Jordan and Pippen were maybe the two smartest players in the league. They had chemistry, they knew how to complement each other's strengths and hide each other's weaknesses. So what you have is an EXTENSION of the coaching staff on the floor. Yet they were smart enough to evaluate the game situation and overrule what the coaches wanted them to do. This is important because it eliminates the need to call a timeout to change strategy.
3) Michael Jordan -- will get back to him in a second

Regular season games mean next to nothing. I've been following basketball since 1987 and I know this to be true. Teams, especially championship teams, only care about the playoffs. Those regular season games meant a lot more to Houston than they did to the Bulls. It's different playing someone in a game of HORSE when you're visiting their home versus playing them best of seven when your wife and children are watching and $1000 is riding on the winner. The first situation is a game. The second is about PRIDE. I think a formidable challenge to Houston would be their ability to adjust to the Bulls adjustments. This is on some Roger Federer type sh*t when he was on top of his game. His greatest advantage was adjusting to you faster than you could adjust to him. I've seen Lleyton Hewitt, Andy Roddick and Marat Safin come up with a game plan that would have him shook for a set and a half. Roger would make an adjustment and quickly whisk them off the court in 4 sets. Why? Because when Roger made his adjustment, those guys needed to huddle with their coach to make a counter-adjustment (which is forbidden in tennis)...so they had to wait until the next match to employ that strategy. Almost the same thing here... The Bulls were smart and they got smarter with each game. Those 10-2 runs by the Bulls would prove to be hard to deal with because Houston wouldn't be able to adjust on the court without calling a timeout. And when they did call timeout, I think the Bulls coaching staff would have a significant advantage over Rudy T's guys. Game to game, maybe it's close to even...but timeout to timeout I think the Bulls steal a couple of points here and there because they could adjust faster than Houston could. And that might be the difference.

If the Rockets played the Bulls, their best chance to beat them would be the first time, in this case 1993. The element of surprise (you cannot "prepare" for The Dream)...those long championship seasons along with the Dream Team experience for Jordan and Pippen that preceded that year took a little bit of life out of the Bulls...normal championship arrogance that creeps into any team that's used to winning...and the Disease of More (Grant was already becoming an irritant this year and there was a little more infighting plus the controversies surrounding The Jordan Rules and Jordan's gambling) all could have compromised the Bulls enough to not be able to withstand the Rockets' challenge.

However, IF this happened I do think the Bulls would have won the next two years for 2 reasons. 1) Chicago is more motivated and given a full year to think on it, would have found a way to neutralize the Rockets strength and exposed their weaknesses. And 2) Michael Jordan. He would have never retired had the Bulls lost in 1993. Furthermore, 1994 would have been an ANGRY Michael Jordan. If he comes back in 1994 to avenge a loss to Houston, we may all be talking about 1994 being his best year ever. People always talk about Jordan didn't do this and he didn't do that...weak league...he didn't face any competition... I think we missed Jordan reaching an even higher level BECAUSE he didn't lose. The man needed competition like the Decepticons needed Energon Cubes. He RETIRED because he didn't feel like there was any competition out there (conspiracy theorists go home). Before coming back, he peppered BJ Armstong about players like Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway and Latrell Spreewell to gauge the competition. He even arranged to "work out" with the Golden State Warriors in order to get a better look at Spreewell. :oldlol: The man was driven by his insane need to compete.

We saw what he was capable of doing after missing damn near two seasons riding a bus in the backwoods of Alabama. Imagine that same drive and focus inside a body that never lost that basketball tuning. Even worse, he lost on the grand stage with everyone watching. Hakeem took Jordan's money in front of his wife and children. :eek: Took his title on the grandest stage AND is named the best player in the NBA? The King is Dead, Long Live the King type of sh*t??? Like Clay Davis said on The Wire...SHeeeeeeeeeeIT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUjh9Id6Id8). There is no way the Bulls don't win in 1994. From 1993 to 1994, the Bulls would have had an angry Jordan, an angry team (I had to separate them for reasons I hope you understand), a coaching staff that would have had a year to adjust and a front office that would have wanted to fill in any holes that were exposed. And I don't think they lose in 1995 either. By that point the Bulls would have locked in on the Rockets tendencies. I know the Rockets had some personnel advantages, but after 2 playoff series, the Bulls would have locked in on how well they adjust, their tendencies in certain situations and for any other mental flaw that can be exposed only in the playoffs. They wouldn't have lost 2 out of 3 against the Rockets.

When all is said and done, I'm putting my money on the best coaching staff and the smartest two leaders (as opposed to just one in Houston). In one playoff series, I don't know. But in a 3 year war, I'm not betting against Michael Jordan in his prime. Hakeem might have gotten him once, but not more than that.

I think by the time the playoffs came around, Jordan and the Bulls were motivated to do something neither the Lakers, Celtics, or Pistons before them were able to do and that was three-peat. They coasted during the regular season, but they kicked it up a gear in the playoffs. That was one of their best playoff runs and one of the most dominating in general losing only 4 games. Bulls would've had the motivation and greater talent.

If Jordan never retired, I think they would've still been able to muster up enough motivation. Even though he was questioning his lack of having anythign to prove, I think his father's death understandably did shake him up alot and things would've been different if that wasn't the case and he returned. Also, Grant was in a contract year, and Pippen relative to his 92 season had a down year in 93 so he would've been more motivated. There was also a bunch of new faces on that team. They would've had the motivation.

In 95 though, if they don't get a suitable replacement for Grant, that probably would have been the Rockets year. But, I doubt they don't find that replacement or just give into Grant's demands. But that would've been the best Rocket team going up against a tired Bulls team. I'd still bet on the Bulls, but who knows.

One thing is for certain IMO and thats that the 94 and 95 Rockets would've definitely been the Bulls' toughest opponent.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ummm, Jordan had years in the late 80s/early 90s of 35/6/6/3/2, 33/8/8/3/1, 34/7/6/3/1, 32/6/6/3/1, 30/6/6/2/1, and 33/7/6/3/1 and usually at a greater efficiency then Hakeem despite being a guard, and while exerting a ton of energy defensively and being the most clutch player in the league. What more did you expect him to do? How is that any less impressive then Hakeem and how does that sound like he had a lighter load and was able to contribute less to his team?

Its not what I expected Jordan to do, it's how much more Hakeem did. 26+ ppg, 10+ rebounds, 3-5+ assists, 3-4+ blocks, 2-3+ steals...He did it all, and this is WITHOUT help from a player who's every-bit as a good of a defender as him (a la, Pipp to MJ). Does Houston even make the postseason without Olajuwon? We know the Bulls did without Jordan.

I'm strictly talking about the 94 and 95 seasons..you can throw in '93 in there too.

[iamgine]

Regular season is not generally an indication. Too many times teams don't take the other seriously.

Whoa, that's just not true.

[guy]

Its not what I expected Jordan to do, it's how much more Hakeem did. 26+ ppg, 10+ rebounds, 3-5+ assists, 3-4+ blocks, 2-3+ steals...He did it all, and this is WITHOUT help from a player who's every-bit as a good of a defender as him (a la, Pipp to MJ). Does Houston even make the postseason without Olajuwon? We know the Bulls did without Jordan.

I'm strictly talking about the 94 and 95 seasons..you can throw in '93 in there too.

But thats my point. If you are going by stats, how did Jordan not do just as much Hakeem did? Look at that production. They are about the same. Intangible wise, they were about the same, if not an edge to Jordan. Sure there contributions are different, which they ought to be cause they aren't the same position. Jordan had the edge in points, assists, and steals, and Hakeem has the edge in rebounds and blocks.

With the years I talked, the Bulls definitely don't make the playoffs in 88 or 89 and arguably don't in 90 or 91 either without Jordan.

[bond10]

Jordan and the Bulls would win in 6. Hakeem's ridiculously overrated on this board.

[NugzHeat3]

I think NugsHeat nailed it. The Rockets would have been the other half of the 90's version of the Celtics Lakers rivalry. It would have been a 3 year war from 93-95. Had Houston beaten Chicago in 1993, Jordan would never have retired.

The only guy that could have matched Jordan step for step in a playoff situation was Hakeem Olajuwon. I mean that to say, match him not only in terms of productivity and efficiency, but leadership, clutch ability and having the understanding of when to turn it up to a certain level at the biggest moment. Meaning...if the situation called for Hakeem to put up 40 and 20 to win a game, he could have. If the situation called for 9 blocks, he could have given it. If the Rockets needed a go-to guy, he was it. There was more to Jordan that the numbers indicate. He knew when to turn it on and had the capability to do so. When you felt like you've seen the best of Jordan, he could go higher for a five minute stretch that could put the game completely out of reach. Hakeem could match him in that area from the center position. It would have been fascinating to watch these two guys lead their teams into a Game 5 situation where both teams are tied 2-2. Think Jordan's Game 5 jewel vs the Knicks in the 1993 ECF against Hakeem's masterpiece Game 5 vs the Jazz in the 1995 First Round. This would have been Magic vs Bird part deux.

The Rockets main advantage would have been Hakeem Olajuwon, obviously. Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell are sh*t by themselves, but with Olajuwon on the floor they are potent threats. Robert Horry, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell were ALL players that knocked down clutch shots for the Rockets at some point in the playoffs. Every player on the floor was a guy that could deliver in crunch time. You double Hakeem and he'll make Elie look like Danny Ainge. They are the type of team that would have pushed Chicago to the absolute limit and maybe even beaten them.

The Bulls had a few more advantages, though.
1) The coaching staff was the absolute best I've ever seen.
2) Jordan and Pippen were maybe the two smartest players in the league. They had chemistry, they knew how to complement each other's strengths and hide each other's weaknesses. So what you have is an EXTENSION of the coaching staff on the floor. Yet they were smart enough to evaluate the game situation and overrule what the coaches wanted them to do. This is important because it eliminates the need to call a timeout to change strategy.
3) Michael Jordan -- will get back to him in a second

Regular season games mean next to nothing. I've been following basketball since 1987 and I know this to be true. Teams, especially championship teams, only care about the playoffs. Those regular season games meant a lot more to Houston than they did to the Bulls. It's different playing someone in a game of HORSE when you're visiting their home versus playing them best of seven when your wife and children are watching and $1000 is riding on the winner. The first situation is a game. The second is about PRIDE. I think a formidable challenge to Houston would be their ability to adjust to the Bulls adjustments. This is on some Roger Federer type sh*t when he was on top of his game. His greatest advantage was adjusting to you faster than you could adjust to him. I've seen Lleyton Hewitt, Andy Roddick and Marat Safin come up with a game plan that would have him shook for a set and a half. Roger would make an adjustment and quickly whisk them off the court in 4 sets. Why? Because when Roger made his adjustment, those guys needed to huddle with their coach to make a counter-adjustment (which is forbidden in tennis)...so they had to wait until the next match to employ that strategy. Almost the same thing here... The Bulls were smart and they got smarter with each game. Those 10-2 runs by the Bulls would prove to be hard to deal with because Houston wouldn't be able to adjust on the court without calling a timeout. And when they did call timeout, I think the Bulls coaching staff would have a significant advantage over Rudy T's guys. Game to game, maybe it's close to even...but timeout to timeout I think the Bulls steal a couple of points here and there because they could adjust faster than Houston could. And that might be the difference.

If the Rockets played the Bulls, their best chance to beat them would be the first time, in this case 1993. The element of surprise (you cannot "prepare" for The Dream)...those long championship seasons along with the Dream Team experience for Jordan and Pippen that preceded that year took a little bit of life out of the Bulls...normal championship arrogance that creeps into any team that's used to winning...and the Disease of More (Grant was already becoming an irritant this year and there was a little more infighting plus the controversies surrounding The Jordan Rules and Jordan's gambling) all could have compromised the Bulls enough to not be able to withstand the Rockets' challenge.

However, IF this happened I do think the Bulls would have won the next two years for 2 reasons. 1) Chicago is more motivated and given a full year to think on it, would have found a way to neutralize the Rockets strength and exposed their weaknesses. And 2) Michael Jordan. He would have never retired had the Bulls lost in 1993. Furthermore, 1994 would have been an ANGRY Michael Jordan. If he comes back in 1994 to avenge a loss to Houston, we may all be talking about 1994 being his best year ever. People always talk about Jordan didn't do this and he didn't do that...weak league...he didn't face any competition... I think we missed Jordan reaching an even higher level BECAUSE he didn't lose. The man needed competition like the Decepticons needed Energon Cubes. He RETIRED because he didn't feel like there was any competition out there (conspiracy theorists go home). Before coming back, he peppered BJ Armstong about players like Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway and Latrell Spreewell to gauge the competition. He even arranged to "work out" with the Golden State Warriors in order to get a better look at Spreewell. :oldlol: The man was driven by his insane need to compete.

We saw what he was capable of doing after missing damn near two seasons riding a bus in the backwoods of Alabama. Imagine that same drive and focus inside a body that never lost that basketball tuning. Even worse, he lost on the grand stage with everyone watching. Hakeem took Jordan's money in front of his wife and children. :eek: Took his title on the grandest stage AND is named the best player in the NBA? The King is Dead, Long Live the King type of sh*t??? Like Clay Davis said on The Wire...SHeeeeeeeeeeIT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUjh9Id6Id8). There is no way the Bulls don't win in 1994. From 1993 to 1994, the Bulls would have had an angry Jordan, an angry team (I had to separate them for reasons I hope you understand), a coaching staff that would have had a year to adjust and a front office that would have wanted to fill in any holes that were exposed. And I don't think they lose in 1995 either. By that point the Bulls would have locked in on the Rockets tendencies. I know the Rockets had some personnel advantages, but after 2 playoff series, the Bulls would have locked in on how well they adjust, their tendencies in certain situations and for any other mental flaw that can be exposed only in the playoffs. They wouldn't have lost 2 out of 3 against the Rockets.

When all is said and done, I'm putting my money on the best coaching staff and the smartest two leaders (as opposed to just one in Houston). In one playoff series, I don't know. But in a 3 year war, I'm not betting against Michael Jordan in his prime. Hakeem might have gotten him once, but not more than that.
Awesome post Da Realist. Loved the Federer analogy. :oldlol:

He would always coast during his prime years (2004-07) and would drop a set here and there but the beating he put up would be so severe that it wouldn't seem like a close match at all. Especially true in 2004 USO final vs Hewitt and in most matches with Roddick.

I laugh when some say current Djokovic could hang with prime Fed when he was struggling with this year's Fed and that's with all the surface modifications that cater to Novak's game more so than Fed's.

Lot of fun hypotheticals.

1993 - If the Bulls lose, Jordan doesn't retire for sure. Do the Rockets make any roster upgrades or are they content with the missile the Bulls will throw at them the next couple of years? If the Bulls win, I'm guessing Jordan still retires and there would definitely be some sort of asterisk placed on the Rockets if they go on to win the next two years.

1994 - If the Bulls win after having lost the year earlier, does Jordan retire now? Does Grant still bolt to Orlando? If the Rockets win which I'd find highly unlikely given they win in 1993, what happens for Hakeem's legacy?

1995 - Do the Rockets trade for Drexler if they lose in 1994 or do they give it another shot with the same core? How do the Bulls adjust to the Drexler-Hakeem Rockets? If the Bulls win this year, what happens in the following years? Do they still win from 1996-98? When does Jordan consider retirement?

[NugzHeat3]

Sure they'd cause problems. I doubt they'd beat them though. Your bringing up them being robbed in game 7 vs. the Sonics. Robbed or not, that series still went 7 games. And if they beat the Sonics, they would've had to face the Suns next. They had problems with worse versions of the Suns for the next 2 years who took them to 7 games both times despite being better versions of themselves. I'd say 95 Rockets > 94 Rockets > 93 Rockets and 93 Suns > 94 Suns > 95 Suns.

I don't think the amount of games a series goes is always a good gauge of how close two teams are (really, there's not necessarily that much of a difference between a series going 6 games vs. 7 games cause a team could easily lose or win one more game), but I think its worth noting here since a bunch of people here have noted how both the Bulls and Rockets did against certain teams. I don't really think it supports their argument much.

I hear the biggest argument for the Rockets is that the Bulls had no center to matchup against Hakeem, but that doesn't hold much weight IMO. Using the long series vs the Sonics and Suns as an example or not, those were arguably the toughest opponents for the Rockets. There was really only one other matchup with an elite center that was just as tough and that was the Knicks, but they completely dominated vs. the Spurs and Magic, who had Robinson and Shaq.

And you always hear that the Sonics were the Rockets kryptonite. They never faced them in the POs during there back-to-back titles. IMO you can argue that the Sonics and Bulls were somewhat similar because of their elite perimeter defense, good rebounding, and reliance primarily on a duo, except the Bulls were much better in almost every regard. Bulls were like a supercharged version of the Sonics. If the Sonics were able to dominate them, I don't see why the Bulls couldn't.
Well, for one, Houston was definitely shafted against Seattle. First, they were hit with a bad call against San Antonio in the last game of the season which would have given them home court against Seattle. That wasn't even a questionable call; its one of the calls that would have been erased if they had instant replay back then.

Drama, trauma as Rockets fall/Spurs eke out 119-117 win
EDDIE SEFKO Staff
MON 04/26/1993 HOUSTON CHRONICLE, Section Sports, Page 1, 2 STAR
SAN ANTONIO -- In a game that refused to die against a team that had more lives than any cat, the Rockets were dealt a disheartening and controversial 119-117 overtime setback by the San Antonio Spurs in the regular-season finale Sunday night.

The Rockets, who lost a chance to win the home-court advantage in the second round against Seattle because of the loss, fell behind 113-109 when David Robinson scored the first two baskets of overtime. They never fully recovered.

The Rockets had a final chance to tie when, down 117-115, Scott Brooks missed an off-balance jumper from the corner with 10 seconds to go in OT. Avery Johnson hit two free throws for the Spurs with 2.5 seconds to go to clinch the win.

The Rockets finished the season with a two-game losing streak, but how they lost Sunday's thriller will be discussed for days.

Robinson tipped in a shot at the end of regulation to force overtime. The missed shot came from Dale Ellis and television replays showed Robinson's tip appeared to come after the buzzer.

.....

Robinson's tip nevertheless counted and overtime was on.

The Rockets had all the incentive they could ask for when Seattle lost at Golden State on Sunday. That left the Sonics with a final record of 55-27.

To gain the second-round home-court advantage should they play Seattle, all the Rockets had to do was win against the Spurs.

Not just that but then they were kind of screwed in game 7 @ Seattle with a few terrible calls; one of them was excusable IIRC since it would be hard to see given the angle but there were two that were just flat-out inexcusable. The type that make you consider its rigged. In a close game that went to OT, its the few things that make the difference. And George Karl at the end of the series said, "I don't know if we're the better team" showing how close it was. Usually, people say the best team always win the best of 7. I don't think it applies to this particular series.

Secondly, the biggest reason I think Houston gets past Phoenix is that KJ was just not the same player he was in 1994 and 1995. KJ was the best Sun in either of those series. Due to several injuries (like the one that he got at the end of 1993 when he hugged Barkley) and a period of adjustment, KJ was a lot worse that year. That Rocket team struggled with PGs since Kenny Smith and Cassell couldn't guard a chair. KJ's penetration allowed the Suns open perimeter jumpers with the drive and kick game; it helped Barkley get gimmes as well. That isn't happening in 1993 to the same extent.

There is also the fact that the Horry-Thorpe-Hakeem frontline would be the best one Barkley would face. He was able to have his way with Seattle with those huge 40 point games due to a lack of a defensive anchor/shot blocker; with Hakeem, he would have to settle for jumpers and Horry would be lurking with those long arms. Majerle was shut down by Maxwell in 1994 and 1995. Hakeem would also be totally motivated because he felt he deserved the MVP that year. It's a recipe for success for Houston.

Also, the biggest argument for Houston is Michael Jordan and their coaching staff noting how much trouble the Rockets gave them. You don't hear Jordan say something like "I'm not sure we could beat them in the finals" even if its not to be taken at face value. And that's not the only time Jordan said it, he's praised Hakeem and the Rockets on several other occasions. He knew how tough of a match up they were. That's respect that a few posters in this thread are clearly not aware of.

[NugzHeat3]

Whoa, that's just not true.
It is. There's too many times where season games end up meaningless.


2011 Heat vs Bulls (3-0 in favor of Chicago)
2006 Heat vs Mavs (2-0 for Dallas, 4-0 if you extend to 2005)
1998 Jazz vs Bulls (2-0 for Utah)
1995 Rockets vs Spurs (1-5 for Spurs)
2006 Heat vs Pistons (3-1 for Detroit)

I could go on and on if you want.

There's several reasons why it may end up being meaningless. Injuries, motivation as teams may coast, approach and just the ability to take it to the next level come playoff time matters.

Home court is important but I don't think season records should be taken at face value. You never know the possibilities.

[iamgine]

It is. There's too many times where season games end up meaningless.


2011 Heat vs Bulls (3-0 in favor of Chicago)
2006 Heat vs Mavs (2-0 for Dallas, 4-0 if you extend to 2005)
1998 Jazz vs Bulls (2-0 for Utah)
1995 Rockets vs Spurs (1-5 for Spurs)
2006 Heat vs Pistons (3-1 for Detroit)

I could go on and on if you want.

Well sure there's a few exception like anything else but mostly it's not like that.

Besides, those samples you provided are too little (Except the 1995 Rockets vs Spurs, which only proves how much Hakeem elevated his game on those playoff)

[Da_Realist]

Well sure there's a few exception like anything else but mostly it's not like that.

Besides, those samples you provided are too little (Except the 1995 Rockets vs Spurs, which only proves how much Hakeem elevated his game on those playoff)

Cleveland was 6-0 vs Chicago in 1989, but lost 3-2 in the playoffs.

[iamgine]

3-2 ain't bad. Lost by 1 point in the final game. Pretty equal chance of winning.

I'm just saying that the Rockets would have a decent chance too.

[guy]

Well, for one, Houston was definitely shafted against Seattle. First, they were hit with a bad call against San Antonio in the last game of the season which would have given them home court against Seattle. That wasn't even a questionable call; its one of the calls that would have been erased if they had instant replay back then.


Not just that but then they were kind of screwed in game 7 @ Seattle with a few terrible calls; one of them was excusable IIRC since it would be hard to see given the angle but there were two that were just flat-out inexcusable. The type that make you consider its rigged. In a close game that went to OT, its the few things that make the difference. And George Karl at the end of the series said, "I don't know if we're the better team" showing how close it was. Usually, people say the best team always win the best of 7. I don't think it applies to this particular series.

Secondly, the biggest reason I think Houston gets past Phoenix is that KJ was just not the same player he was in 1994 and 1995. KJ was the best Sun in either of those series. Due to several injuries (like the one that he got at the end of 1993 when he hugged Barkley) and a period of adjustment, KJ was a lot worse that year. That Rocket team struggled with PGs since Kenny Smith and Cassell couldn't guard a chair. KJ's penetration allowed the Suns open perimeter jumpers with the drive and kick game; it helped Barkley get gimmes as well. That isn't happening in 1993 to the same extent.

There is also the fact that the Horry-Thorpe-Hakeem frontline would be the best one Barkley would face. He was able to have his way with Seattle with those huge 40 point games due to the non existent layer of interior defense; with Hakeem, he would have to settle for jumpers and Horry would be lurking with those long arms. Majerle was shut down by Maxwell in 1994 and 1995. Hakeem would also be totally motivated because he felt he deserved the MVP that year. It's a recipe for success for Houston.

Also, the biggest argument for Houston is Michael Jordan and their coaching staff noting how much trouble the Rockets gave them. You don't hear Jordan say something like "I'm not sure we could beat them in the finals" even if its not to be taken at face value. And that's not the only time Jordan said it, he's praised Hakeem and the Rockets on several other occasions. He knew how tough of a match up they were. That's respect that a few posters in this thread are clearly not aware of.

I know Jordan had alot of respect for him. Like I said, IMO they would've no doubt been there toughest opponent, primarily cause of Hakeem.

[BigBalla44]

And we are supposed to believe that you're unbiased?:facepalm
He didn't even mention Jordan in any negative or less valid way..

Hi Fatal9

[millwad]

Hi Fatal9

Since when did Fatal become swedish?

[Da_Realist]

I'm not sure who wins. It is a pretty even match up and the Rockets clearly deserve more credit than they usually get.

The Bulls' players, staff and coaches have noted that the Rockets gave them a lot of trouble in the early 90s. I'm not the one who uses regular season records as evidence but to put it out there, Houston was 5-1 vs Chicago from 1991-93 and some of those games had hype too. For instance, when Houston went to the Chicago stadium with a 11 game W streak while Chicago had a really long undefeated streak at home.

I just watched this game last week. Jordan was sick (I assume a cold) and was visibly tired throughout the game yet shot 15-25 for the game. :eek: Final stat line = 34 points (15-25 fgs), 7 rebs, 4 asts, 3 stls and 3 blks and 0 turnovers in 37 minutes (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199103250CHI.html). Johnny Kerr said, "That's something about Jordan. When he's sick, he ends up making the other team sick." His ability to play well when he's sick is just another indicator that he could have been better had he been pushed more than he was. He still had ways to elevate his game beyond what we think is his ceiling.

Yet, Houston controlled the game from the 2nd quarter on...in Chicago's building...as they were trying to extend their home winning streak. This with Hakeem playing well below his normal standards but he did open things up for Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell. Below standards for the stat sheet, but he did his job. Hope Kenny and Vernon treated him to dinner that night. Both teams were trying to win the game so it was an impressive win for the Rockets.

** Let me shoot down this rumor. All that talk about Vernon Maxwell slowing down Jordan...STOP it. Dude couldn't check Jordan. If Jordan shot badly, it was because he had an off night not because of anything Maxwell did. Somehow this has become reason number 2 as to why Houston would beat Chicago. :confusedshrug:

[NugzHeat3]

I just watched this game last week. Jordan was sick (I assume a cold) and was visibly tired throughout the game yet shot 15-25 for the game. :eek: Final stat line = 34 points (15-25 fgs), 7 rebs, 4 asts, 3 stls and 3 blks and 0 turnovers in 37 minutes (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199103250CHI.html). Johnny Kerr said, "That's something about Jordan. When he's sick, he ends up making the other team sick." His ability to play well when he's sick is just another indicator that he could have been better had he been pushed more than he was. He still had ways to elevate his game beyond what we think is his ceiling.

Yet, Houston controlled the game from the 2nd quarter on...in Chicago's building...as they were trying to extend their home winning streak. This with Hakeem playing well below his normal standards but he did open things up for Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell. Below standards for the stat sheet, but he did his job. Hope Kenny and Vernon treated him to dinner that night. Both teams were trying to win the game so it was an impressive win for the Rockets.

** Let me shoot down this rumor. All that talk about Vernon Maxwell slowing down Jordan...STOP it. Dude couldn't check Jordan. If Jordan shot badly, it was because he had an off night not because of anything Maxwell did. Somehow this has become reason number 2 as to why Houston would beat Chicago. :confusedshrug:
Goddamn, I just youtube'd that game you posted. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu92R-UR12o

If Jordan really was sick, he played an unbelievable game. Literally blowing by Maxwell at will, insane body control and adjustment in mid air with Hakeem at the rim; everytime I watch Jordan, I'm in awe of the lift he gets on his jumper as well as the seperation he creates. Some great defensive plays on Hakeem too. But a little unrealistic to expect Vernon or anyone else to stop Jordan, are we? :oldlol:

BTW, I don't think people say Vernon could stop Jordan and those who do don't understand the concept of defense. Stopping Jordan was a team concept; guys like Vernon, Starks, Majerle ect were all initial defenders and I think Maxwell was a more than a solid defender except when going against Jordan.

I think a lot of it has to do with Hakeem waiting at the rim; its the interior layer that would cause Jordan more problem than the initial defender. If the Knicks guarded him one on one with Wilkins, Starks or whoever, Jordan would have had his way every single time. Even Payton who I thought did a great job was just the intial defender; he had a lot of help and the Sonics executed their traps and double teams very well mixing it up each time. So I think people expect the combo of Maxwell/Hakeem, helpside defense and double teams to stop Jordan more so than Maxwell himself.

But one thing I'll say about Maxwell, he was batshit insane and you could look at it both ways. Nutcase as in such that he could shoot you out of games, pick up unnecessary techs but a nutcase that picked up the intensity of your team as a whole with the vocal energy and trash talking. He didn't back down from Jordan or anyone; he wouldn't let anyone get to him. Byron Scott, I remember in the 1991 finals, was clearly shook throughout the finals and even Marv/Fratello noted it when he got injured. He shot an abysmal shooting percent cause Jordan was in his head; he was getting his clock cleaned all game long.

I saw a couple of those games and he went at Jordan trying to make him work at defnese. Even got by him a couple of times and finished nicely around the rim. I think one was the game they played @ Houston in 1993 on your channel, the other one here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epPwITy_BMU&feature=related

[Fatal9]

Fatal is a contrarian when MJ is involved. A very narcissistic person when it comes to this forum. The guy thinks he is the smartest dude when it comes to basketball and likes to argue things for the sake of arguing. As far as MJ, I dont know if it comes from the need to go against the majority to prove how smart he is or if he's just a Kobe lover masquerading as a true bball fan. Case in point, he will always argue certain things against MJ but not hold the same standards for Kobe.

Anyways, the dude is still an underclassman in college. As if he saw MJ or Hakeem play, its hilarious.

How about no. I've made posts on Hakeem that have nothing to do with MJ. And the biggest reason I'm constantly arguing against MJ is what you saw right here. MJ fans acting like MJ is the best at literally everything, laughing at the notion that someone said Hakeem used to exert as much if not more energy than Jordan, when he in fact he did have more responsibilities on both ends and Hakeem's style of play especially in his younger days was relentless pursuit of ball, trying to block every shot in the vicinity, roam around defensively causing havoc. There's things MJ did that were on another level than Hakeem and vice versa...but energy/hustle and stuff like that? No way and it's not like I'm saying MJ is any less of a player. It's just crazy to me that someone would say something like that when the one thing that stands out any time you watch a game with Hakeem (especially playoff game) is how hard and how much he is doing on the court.


Cleveland was 6-0 vs Chicago in 1989, but lost 3-2 in the playoffs.
Mark Price was injured in the series though, even missed a game. While I overall agree you don't need to look much into the regular season records, Bulls caught a break in that series.

[Da_Realist]

Mark Price was injured in the series though, even missed a game. While I overall agree you don't need to look much into the regular season records, Bulls caught a break in that series.

1991: Philadelphia beat Chicago 3 games to 1 (and won one game in Chicago WITHOUT Barkley) but lost to the Bulls in 5 games in the playoffs that year.

[Da_Realist]

Goddamn, I just youtube'd that game you posted. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu92R-UR12o

If Jordan really was sick, he played an unbelievable game. Literally blowing by Maxwell at will, insane body control and adjustment in mid air with Hakeem at the rim; everytime I watch Jordan, I'm in awe of the lift he gets on his jumper as well as the seperation he creates. Some great defensive plays on Hakeem too. But a little unrealistic to expect Vernon or anyone else to stop Jordan, are we? :oldlol:

^^ I just posted the whole game here --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZAaVBrvaCU

[eliteballer]

Pretty useless to discuss considering no one knows how fresh Jordan would have been without the retirement.

[Da_Realist]

Pretty useless to discuss considering no one knows how fresh Jordan would have been without the retirement.

Good thing for Kobe. He wouldn't have a chance in hell of catching MJ's total points scored if MJ played the full 86, 94 and 95 seasons. And the numbers gap (averages and totals) would be even greater. :D

[eliteballer]

Wrong. If Jordan plays straight then he's not as good in 96/97/98. More mileage, less rest. He only had 8 seasons worth of games under his belt when he came back in 96.

[NugzHeat3]

^^ I just posted the whole game here --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZAaVBrvaCU
I'll definitely watch it when I get time. Your channel is like NBA TV, only better.


I just watched this game last week. Jordan was sick (I assume a cold) and was visibly tired throughout the game yet shot 15-25 for the game. :eek: Final stat line = 34 points (15-25 fgs), 7 rebs, 4 asts, 3 stls and 3 blks and 0 turnovers in 37 minutes (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199103250CHI.html). Johnny Kerr said, "That's something about Jordan. When he's sick, he ends up making the other team sick." His ability to play well when he's sick is just another indicator that he could have been better had he been pushed more than he was. He still had ways to elevate his game beyond what we think is his ceiling.

Yet, Houston controlled the game from the 2nd quarter on...in Chicago's building...as they were trying to extend their home winning streak. This with Hakeem playing well below his normal standards but he did open things up for Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell. Below standards for the stat sheet, but he did his job. Hope Kenny and Vernon treated him to dinner that night. Both teams were trying to win the game so it was an impressive win for the Rockets.

** Let me shoot down this rumor. All that talk about Vernon Maxwell slowing down Jordan...STOP it. Dude couldn't check Jordan. If Jordan shot badly, it was because he had an off night not because of anything Maxwell did. Somehow this has become reason number 2 as to why Houston would beat Chicago. :confusedshrug:
I had to respond to this. IMO, reason #2 Houston can potentially win is Robert Horry. I'm serious when I say this.

I've maintained this guy is one of the more underrated players in the last 20 years. Early in his career, he was getting comparisons with ..... you named it. Scottie Pippen. The length, versatility, the defense, high flying dunks. He didn't quite have his playmaking, ball handling or slashing though he'd drive on occasion and have a huge dunk out of nowhere.

I'm not saying he's as good. But Horry can nullify a lot of Pippen's advantages in a playoff series because he's a player in the similar mold.

In the 1995 finals, Horry was matched up with Grant. Horry said every newspaper he read gave an edge to Grant; he took that as offense just like he took the Rockets trading him to Detroit as offense. After the finals ended and Horry had thoroughly outplayed him, Grant compared him to Pippen for his ability to impact the game in different ways and wreak havoc on the floor. Horry had a steals record that series IIRC similar instincts like Pippen in the passing lane.

You saw some of his defensive versatility against the Suns too when he was assigned Barkley in 1995.

Before this series, the experts analyzed the matchups, one by one, and predicted Grant's imminent swallowing of Horry at power forward.

"You'd open the paper and read, 'Advantage Grant,' " Horry said. "That motivated me. I thank those guys for thinking they know everything."

Grant, in fact, was the one who said today that Horry and Pippen (Grant's former Chicago teammate) are connected at the hip.


http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/13/sports/1995-nba-playoffs-still-a-rocket-and-finally-a-shooter.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm


News Tribune - ‎14 Jun 1995‎
Magic forward Horace Grant looks at Houston counterpart Robert Horry as a future Scottie Pippen.

Now, Horry didn't quite pan out. He was never the same player after the Rockets traded him to PHX and he had the towel incident with Ainge and became a bench player in LA. But Horry was much more than a clutch shooter in his Houston days than what he's perceived as now.

I'm not putting much emphasis in these but you can see it in some of those season games, Horry and Scottie nearly cancel each other out.

Austin American-Statesman - Dec 12, 1992

Horry scored 18 points but more importantly played vetern Scottie Pippen to a virtual stalemate. Pippen scored 22 points. "Robert Horry did a great job holding his own (against Pippen)," Tomjanovich said.

I've never actually heard about this but I wouldn't be surprised if Horry patterned his game after Pippen.

[NugzHeat3]

1991: Philadelphia beat Chicago 3 games to 1 (and won one game in Chicago WITHOUT Barkley) but lost to the Bulls in 5 games in the playoffs that year.
1989 Milwaukee vs Hawks. Season series 6-0 in favor of Atlanta. Bucks won in the 1st round.

1986 Houston vs LA. Season series 4-1 in favor of LA. Houston won the series.

1990 PHX vs LA. Season series 3-1 in favor of LA. PHX won 4-1 in the WCSF.

[Da_Realist]

Wrong. If Jordan plays straight then he's not as good in 96/97/98. More mileage, less rest. He only had 8 seasons worth of games under his belt when he came back in 96.

Even if... he left thousands of points on the table (at very high efficiency, most likely) by not playing those 3 seasons. And hundreds of rebounds, assists, steals and blocks. (He won the steals title in 93. I think it's safe to assume he challenges for it in 94 and 95).

Take away the 865 points he scored (at 43%) during those shortened seasons of 86 and 95...Add in the roughly 7500 points he would have scored (at near 50%) and his point total increases by about 6600 points. Knock off about 300 points for the 96-98 seasons (that's about 1 point per game per season -- which sounds reasonable) due to compounding fatigue and subtract the 3015 points he scored with the Wizards (assuming he doesn't un-retire since he would have played 14 straight seasons).

That's 32,292 - 408 - 457 + 7500 - 300 - 3015 = 35,612. That's a gain of around 3500 points.

Kobe's sitting at 27,868 points. 35,612 - 27,868 = 7,744. So Kobe would need to make up roughly 7,744 points. He'd need almost 4 more seasons of near 82 games at his present scoring average to get to that hypothetical number. That means Kobe would need to play 19 total years to reach Jordan's scoring total. In this scenario, Jordan would have done it in 14.

And I must mention, all of Jordan's other numbers would increase had he played more games during his physical prime while losing games at the back end.

[Da_Realist]

I'll definitely watch it when I get time. Your channel is like NBA TV, only better.

Thanks :cheers:

but watch while you can. The tjhunt76 channel has 2 strikes against it. One more and the channel is gone. All it takes is for the NBA or whoever to notice one instance of copyright infringement that they don't like and it's gone. :( My other channel, tjhunt1976, has no strikes against it at all but there is no way in hell I'm re-uploading all the games from the first channel. Once it's gone, it's gone.

[NugzHeat3]

Thanks :cheers:

but watch while you can. The tjhunt76 channel has 2 strikes against it. One more and the channel is gone. All it takes is for the NBA or whoever to notice one instance of copyright infringement that they don't like and it's gone. :( My other channel, tjhunt1976, has no strikes against it at all but there is no way in hell I'm re-uploading all the games from the first channel. Once it's gone, it's gone.
That would be a damn shame. A channel like yours doesn't deserve to be deleted. 4K videos gone. :violin:

This particular games is on your newer channel though.

Don't upload any game with brawls or anything like that. NBA is out to protect its image.

[eliteballer]

Even if... he left thousands of points on the table (at very high efficiency, most likely) by not playing those 3 seasons. And hundreds of rebounds, assists, steals and blocks. (He won the steals title in 93. I think it's safe to assume he challenges for it in 94 and 95).

Take away the 865 points he scored (at 43%) during those shortened seasons of 86 and 95...Add in the roughly 7500 points he would have scored (at near 50%) and his point total increases by about 6600 points. Knock off about 300 points for the 96-98 seasons (that's about 1 point per game per season -- which sounds reasonable) due to compounding fatigue and subtract the 3015 points he scored with the Wizards (assuming he doesn't un-retire since he would have played 14 straight seasons).

That's 32,292 - 408 - 457 + 7500 - 300 - 3015 = 35,612. That's a gain of around 3500 points.

Kobe's sitting at 27,868 points. 35,612 - 27,868 = 7,744. So Kobe would need to make up roughly 7,744 points. He'd need almost 4 more seasons of near 82 games at his present scoring average to get to that hypothetical number. That means Kobe would need to play 19 total years to reach Jordan's scoring total. In this scenario, Jordan would have done it in 14.

And I must mention, all of Jordan's other numbers would increase had he played more games during his physical prime while losing games at the back end.

A numbers comparison doesnt matter one way or another because Jordan played in the 80's/early 90's while Kobe played in early 00's and deferred to Shaq, and also played on more balanced offensive teams later in his career.

[Da_Realist]

That would be a damn shame. A channel like yours doesn't deserve to be deleted. 4K videos gone. :violin:

This particular games is on your newer channel though.

Don't upload any game with brawls or anything like that. NBA is out to protect its image.

Man I hadn't touched that channel in almost a year aside from reading comments. I just hope if a complaint comes through they consider that I'm no longer an active uploader and let it go. One can hope.

[NugzHeat3]

Man I hadn't touched that channel in almost a year aside from reading comments. I just hope if a complaint comes through they consider that I'm no longer an active uploader and let it go. One can hope.
I think they'll definitely consider it given the amount of games you have on there. Wouldn't feel right deleting a channel like that.

[nnn123]

A numbers comparison doesnt matter one way or another because Jordan played in the 80's/early 90's while Kobe played in early 00's and deferred to Shaq, and also played on more balanced offensive teams later in his career.




How bout a "brain's" comparison....how does that work out comparin MJ and Kobe

[Soundwave]

I actually think the '94 Bulls w/Jordan hypothetically might've been the best Bulls team ever.

Jordan + Pippen + Grant + a maturing Armstrong + Kukoc as well?

[millwad]

I'll definitely watch it when I get time. Your channel is like NBA TV, only better.


I had to respond to this. IMO, reason #2 Houston can potentially win is Robert Horry. I'm serious when I say this.

I've maintained this guy is one of the more underrated players in the last 20 years. Early in his career, he was getting comparisons with ..... you named it. Scottie Pippen. The length, versatility, the defense, high flying dunks. He didn't quite have his playmaking, ball handling or slashing though he'd drive on occasion and have a huge dunk out of nowhere.

I'm not saying he's as good. But Horry can nullify a lot of Pippen's advantages in a playoff series because he's a player in the similar mold.

In the 1995 finals, Horry was matched up with Grant. Horry said every newspaper he read gave an edge to Grant; he took that as offense just like he took the Rockets trading him to Detroit as offense. After the finals ended and Horry had thoroughly outplayed him, Grant compared him to Pippen for his ability to impact the game in different ways and wreak havoc on the floor. Horry had a steals record that series IIRC similar instincts like Pippen in the passing lane.

You saw some of his defensive versatility against the Suns too when he was assigned Barkley in 1995.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/13/sports/1995-nba-playoffs-still-a-rocket-and-finally-a-shooter.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm



Now, Horry didn't quite pan out. He was never the same player after the Rockets traded him to PHX and he had the towel incident with Ainge and became a bench player in LA. But Horry was much more than a clutch shooter in his Houston days than what he's perceived as now.

I'm not putting much emphasis in these but you can see it in some of those season games, Horry and Scottie nearly cancel each other out.


I've never actually heard about this but I wouldn't be surprised if Horry patterned his game after Pippen.

Great comment!
Watching Horry from the back-to-backs really gave me a feeling that he'd become a much better player then what he did. He really looked like someone with great potential, really all-round and for his height he had great handles, he also was really athletic and his shooting and chutchness was just top notch.

Sure, his career was a great one with alot of rings but I totally agree with you regarding his potential when he played for the Rockets.

[Harison]

On paper Bulls are better, and I usually dont bet against Jordan in the post-season :pimp: However If anyone can match Jordan's insane Playoffs impact, its Hakeem, even more - a big man of such caliber can impact game in more ways than wing. Plus Rockets matched up Bulls well, and often had an edge over them, plus Jordan (who didnt feared anyone... feared Rockets, much like Magic feared Bird).

Bottom line, I give Bulls 60:40 edge, but it definitely wouldnt be one sided, either way. Battle of the Titans :cheers:

[swi7ch]

I've simulated the Bulls vs Rockets in NBA 2K12 at least 12x and the Rockets always lose. :wtf:

[NugzHeat3]

Michael Jordan analyzes Hakeem's career from start-present (present as in when the article was written). Article from November 1995.


SAN ANTONIO - The torch has been passed.
Michael Jordan is no longer the greatest player in the NBA. Jordan might be the highest-scoring and the most-recognizable player in the game, but the honor of greatest player belongs to the Rockets' Hakeem Olajuwon.

Sure, you're bound to get an argument from the fans of Jordan, the player who for so many years has provided the yardstick by which greatness is measured. And they would have plenty of ammunition, too, because the NBA record book looks almost like a page out of his resume.

Jordan's fans could point to his career 32.2 scoring average, the highest in NBA history. They could talk about Jordan's seven straight scoring titles, which tied Wilt Chamberlain's NBA record. It was a run that was only interrupted by Jordan's self-imposed 11/2-year exile to chase the dream of professional baseball. They could mention his seven straight first-team All-NBA honors, his six straight All-Defense first teams, his three Most Valuable Player awards, his two Olympic gold medals and three NBA championships.

All good arguments. But the endorsement for Olajuwon comes from the most unimpeachable source - Jordan.

"Hakeem is the best," Jordan said. "He's constantly trying to elevate his game to where he's not predictable, which is a sign of greatness. He's added a lot of different moves over the years. He eludes the double team and the triple team and finds a way to beat them. He's willing to kick (the ball) out or do whatever he has to do to win, and yet still knows how to shine.

"That's when you finally understand the game. It's not really the physical aspect of the game, it's more the mental - how to apply what you've learned to whatever situation. How to get yourself going, get yourself to where you need to dominate the game, or not dominate the game. I think he's learned that part and understands it very well.

"He's what I consider to be a late bloomer - you started to see his talent evolve, he refined it, improved it and sharpened it. Now he's a diamond, and he has very little polishing left to do on his game. He's worked on it so much because I think he has an appetite to improve. He's the best today."

There is no false modesty in Jordan's words. He is not trying to shift the onus of greatness, and subsequent media attention, on Olajuwon, who has led the Rockets to two straight NBA championships. Not by any means. No, Jordan merely thinks Olajuwon, who has led the Rockets to two straight NBA championships, is a cut above himself and other players such as Chicago teammate Scottie Pippen, Orlando's Shaquille O'Neal and Charles Barkley of Phoenix.

The difference? Stereotype-shattering versatility.

"Everyone says Hakeem's the best center in the game, but that's bull," Jordan, 32, said, pausing slightly before that (almost) trademark smile crossed his face. "He's not a center. He's a small forward playing center. You don't find that in this game, especially as successfully as he does it. Hakeem is the best. It took them (Rockets management) a while to understand that this guy is a very unique evolution in the game.

"A center, at least what I've always envisioned, is a guy who can't move well, who's right there in the paint - Artis Gilmore or Wilt Chamberlain. But Hakeem gets out on the perimeter and steals the ball, rebounds the ball, shoots it from 15 feet while facing up, can shoot it on isolations from the perimeter. And those shake moves.

"Those are things centers could never do."

Jordan is among the best qualified to pass judgment on Olajuwon's career. They entered the league the same year, Olajuwon as the No. 1 pick in the 1984 draft and Jordan the third selection, right after the Portland Trail Blazers (to their eternal regret) chose Sam Bowie. Olajuwon's ascension to top pro prospect that year was nothing short of amazing, Jordan said, considering his first glance at the player then known as Akeem Abdul Olajuwon was anything less than impressive.

Olajuwon, then a sophomore, came off the bench for two points and six rebounds in the University of Houston's 68-63 loss to North Carolina in the semifinals of the 1982 Final Four. Jordan, then a freshman, scored 18 points in the game, and then two nights later hit the game-winner against Georgetown that gave the Tar Heels a one-point victory and the NCAA championship.

"When I first saw Hakeem, it was when we played them (UH) in the Final Four," Jordan said. "He didn't even start and he was stumbling all over the place. The next two years he took his team to the (NCAA) Finals, and he was the focal point. Sure, they had Michael Young and those guys, but Hakeem was competing with (Georgetown's) Patrick Ewing and all those other centers for an identity.

"By the time '84 came, he was the No. 1 draft pick (in the NBA draft), which was my year. He came a long way in those two years."

And has come a long way since. Jordan said Olajuwon, 32, has what few in the league today possess - the will to be great. Such devotion to maintaining a standard of excellence, especially in a league that so richly rewards mediocrity, is difficult to find these days.

"Wanting to be great is OK, but to chase it, very few people can do that," Jordan said. "It's a goal to have out there, but you have to put forth the effort and work to get it. Then you have to sustain it because everybody's shooting at you. At first you kind of sneak up on people. But once you (achieve greatness), there's no more sneaking up.

"You're in a Catch-22 situation, and it's the same for me and him (Olajuwon) because you can't win (in the eyes of the fans and the media). Say he goes out and plays against one of these young centers - if he doesn't dominate, then people want to know why. If he dominates, well, he was expected to. We both have set certain standards for ourselves, so you know what to expect.

"If you don't stay on top, as soon as you start making those standards come down, people start looking for reasons and explanations. You find yourself defending yourself when actually you just had a bad game. So what? Everybody has a bad game. I think that because of the consistency that we put forth, a bad game is not accepted that often, but in actuality, everything can't go perfectly every day. But we don't see that when we're talking about great players."

And Jordan knows all about the pressures of greatness. Jordan had to maintain that level of excellence in the wake of much-publicized events in his life - his father's murder, the gambling accusations and the talk of his runaway ego after The Jordan Rules, a book that gave a less-than-flattering look at Jordan and the Bulls, hit the stands.

The time he took off to pursue baseball gave Jordan the chance to recharge his emotional and professional batteries.

"I needed it," Jordan said. "I felt like I needed that appreciation because I lost it. Just being on top, you tend to lose some of those steps you took to get there. No, you don't really lose them, you forget them. Somehow you have to revisit those steps just so you can understand where you are or where you've been. If you ever get off that and start working your way back up, it's harder than you can possibly imagine. I think it's harder than the first time."

So the torch has been passed. Well, maybe not fully passed just yet.

One gets the feeling Jordan, who always loved a challenge, maintains a tenuous grip, hoping to regain his status atop the NBA.

"I really don't try to make it an individual thing," Jordan said. "I can't control his destiny, I can only control mine. But we're going to be viewed in terms of competition."

He paused before adding a wink and a smile: "I want to be on top. I may not be there, but I know what it takes and I'm willing to work my way back up."

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1995_1309857

[NugzHeat3]

The Dream against the Bulls in late 1992.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-FbhBM9uvU

Look at the versatility.

[Da_Realist]

A numbers comparison doesnt matter one way or another because Jordan played in the 80's/early 90's while Kobe played in early 00's and deferred to Shaq, and also played on more balanced offensive teams later in his career.

Then you'll have to give up his rings and take your chances that Kobe could find a way to win 5 rings with a team like Charlotte (who drafted him) instead of walking on to a championship contender.

Either way, you keep acting like Jordan benefited from taking practically 2 years off to play baseball when Kobe's legacy benefited even MORE.

*It's likely Jordan would have won 4 or 5 titles anyway. Maybe 6, who knows? It's a better chance Jordan wins 5 or 6 titles playing 14 years straight than it is for Kobe to win 5 titles playing his whole career in Charlotte.

*How many more 40 and 50 point games did he leave on the table?

*It's no doubt his scoring, fg percentage, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks averages would have increased with him replacing his injured and Wizards years with 3 physical prime years. Jordan already owns all those categories over Kobe anyway. What would the masses say if the gap was even LARGER?

[Da_Realist]

Michael Jordan analyzes Hakeem's career from start-present (present as in when the article was written). Article from November 1995.


http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1995_1309857

DAMN that's a great find! :cheers:

[Fatal9]

Michael Jordan analyzes Hakeem's career from start-present (present as in when the article was written). Article from November 1995.


http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1995_1309857
Mentally they are so much alike. I'd say the two most fearless players I've seen. And it's been like that the moment they entered the league...things they were doing by their second years that you're just not supposed to be doing...it takes years of ups and downs and experience to build that sort of mental toughness and they were going at some of the greatest teams ever with no fear at all. No surprise both almost always took it to another level in the playoffs.

And Hakeem's mastery of the game by 1993 is always interesting to me. He played the right way offensively even before, he's instinctively had it, but his decision making from that year was as good as you could get from a scoring center. I feel like it would have happened sooner if he landed in the right situation/coach before who built around him offensively more instead of letting chuckers control their team (mad max, sleepy etc). Also I'd say it was partly because he benefited a little bit from the slowing down of the game by that point too, less run and gun, more about working around and through your star/center.

[Bigsmoke]

The Bulls.

But I think the 95 Rockets would beat the Bulls with MJ in 94 and 95.

[NugzHeat3]

Mentally they are so much alike. I'd say the two most fearless players I've seen. And it's been like that the moment they entered the league...things they were doing by their second years that you're just not supposed to be doing...it takes years of ups and downs and experience to build that sort of mental toughness and they were going at some of the greatest teams ever with no fear at all. No surprise both almost always took it to another level in the playoffs.

And Hakeem's mastery of the game by 1993 is always interesting to me. He played the right way offensively even before, he's instinctively had it, but his decision making from that year was as good as you could get from a scoring center. I feel like it would have happened sooner if he landed in the right situation/coach before who built around him offensively more instead of letting chuckers control their team (mad max, sleepy etc). Also I'd say it was partly because he benefited a little bit from the slowing down of the game by that point too, less run and gun, more about working around and through your star/center.
I find Hakeem's sudden jump in 1993 to be interesting. I can't quite understand what led to it though because I can't see a 30 year old improving that much in one year.

I always thought it was due to a combination of factors. Contract settlement on the flight, Hakeem's willingness to pass, blending in within the team thanks to Rudy T and being focused as ever.

But you might be on to something here because I'm sure you've seen more games than me. But based on stats, I don't think he wasn't built around offensively in 1990. He took more shots in less minutes that year than he did in 1990 plus he turned the ball over quite a bit too.

What I do see though is poor spacing evident by the Lakers strategy of triple teaming him in the playoffs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0v1EWFeA2I
^0:40 mark, game 2 1990 playoffs Houston vs LA. Hubie Brown says LA triple teamed Hakeem 33 times in game 1, basically every time he touched the ball and the perimeter players either shot an air ball or hit the front of the rim. 28% from the perimeter.

I do find it interesting though. Hakeem had the rep of being selfish in the early 90s but then he goes on to take more shots/score more than he ever did and is called a tremendous team player. That rep may have been undeserved.

Seems like Rudy T's offensive schemes were also much more effective than Chaney's.

[QUOTE]At the same time, Rocket coach Rudy Tomjanovich has devised an offense populated with penetrators like rookie Sam Cassell and hair-trigger three-point shooters like Smith and Vernon Maxwell to complement Olajuwon's interior dominance. Catching the ball on the left block, Olajuwon usually has two frothing teammates poised on the arc facing him

[Fatal9]

But you might be on to something here because I'm sure you've seen more games than me. But based on stats, I don't think he wasn't built around offensively in 1990. He took more shots in less minutes that year than he did in 1990 plus he turned the ball over quite a bit too.
Mad Max and Sleepy used to take just as many shots or more than Hakeem per minute in those years (and these were major 25-35 minute rotation guys too). Lot of games are frustrating to watch offensively, just such poor structure. The only reason they were making the playoffs was because Hakeem anchoring the D made them one of the best at that end but offensively, they just had poor strategy and IIRC were usually in the bottom 10 then a sudden jump after Rudy T came in and the offense began running through Hakeem a lot more.

[NugzHeat3]

Mad Max and Sleepy used to take just as many shots or more than Hakeem per minute in those years (and these were major 25-35 minute rotation guys too). Lot of games are frustrating to watch offensively, just such poor structure. The only reason they were making the playoffs was because Hakeem anchoring the D made them one of the best at that end but offensively, they just had poor strategy and IIRC were usually in the bottom 10 then a sudden jump after Rudy T came in and the offense began running through Hakeem a lot more.
Good point. I see that in the per 36 numbers.

Some of it probably had to do with the offense being better with Hakeem out though. Remember when Houston went on a run when he had the eye injury. Those guards were thriving and playing more uptempo, specifically Kenny Smith, Floyd and Maxwell. They probably stuck with that offense when Hakeem came back.

In the end though, you weren't going to win with those guards as the focal point and you saw that in the 1991 playoffs where they got swept. Two games from that series are up on youtube and Doug Collins repeatedly mentions Hakeem needs more touches. Maxwell had more shot attempts than him for the series.

Floyd and Maxwell are the height of inconsistency. Fun to watch when they are on though. Maxwell had the 30 point 4th quarter against Cleveland and Sleepy's 4th quarter against LA.