Top 10 Small Forwards In NBA History as of 2011, Fox Sports

[Legends66NBA7]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-small-forwards-in-NBA-history#photo-title=Small%20forwards,%20big%20feats&photo=30170275

Reasons for the choices are in the link.

1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. John Havlicek
4. Elgin Baylor
5. LeBron James
6. Scottie Pippen
7. James Worthy
8. Rick Barry
9. Dominique Wilkins
10. Paul Pierce

[DaPerceive]

I agree with the first three but I stop after that.

As much as I like and respect Elgin Baylor, he shouldn't be in the top 5. Rick Barry was also terribly underrated. 8th? The dude should be in the top 5 at the least.

[Legends66NBA7]

I agree with the first three but I stop after that.

As much as I like and respect Elgin Baylor, he shouldn't be in the top 5. Rick Barry was also terribly underrated. 8th? The dude should be in the top 5 at the least.

Yes, he doesn't deserve 8th, IMO. However, Top 5 might be streching it. And LeBron isn't done either and his resume is probably already surpassed Barry's for the most part. Barry over Pippen and Baylor seems logical, I suppose.

[D.J.]

IMO:



Bird
LeBron
Havlicek
Erving
Pippen
Barry
Baylor
Worthy
Wilkins
Pierce



Barry at 8 is definitely too low. He's around 5-6. Definitely no lower than 6.

[talkingconch]

IMO:



Bird
LeBron
Havlicek
Erving
Pippen
Barry
Baylor
Worthy
Wilkins
Pierce



Barry at 8 is definitely too low. He's around 5-6. Definitely no lower than 6.

hahahahahahahahahaha

[D.J.]

hahahahahahahahahaha


His pure talent alone puts him there, and I don't even like him.

[L.Kizzle]

I agree with the first three but I stop after that.

As much as I like and respect Elgin Baylor, he shouldn't be in the top 5. Rick Barry was also terribly underrated. 8th? The dude should be in the top 5 at the least.
Baylor not top 5, cause he couldnt beat the Celtics??

Paul should not be here.

[Sarcastic]

hahahahahahahahahaha

None of the guys ahead of him were every considered the best basketball player on the planet, except for Bird.

[kurt_rambis]

4, 5, and 6 are pretty interchangeable

worthy over wilkins is very, very odd

[talkingconch]

None of the guys ahead of him were every considered the best basketball player on the planet, except for Bird.

All I'm saying is he's top 5 material as the list suggests for now

when it's all said and done, I think he'll be 1 or 2

[Legends66NBA7]

4, 5, and 6 are pretty interchangeable

worthy over wilkins is very, very odd

Same with Worthy over Barry.

[D.J.]

4, 5, and 6 are pretty interchangeable

worthy over wilkins is very, very odd


They didn't call him Big Game James for nothing. He'd be even higher if he wasn't a sidekick to Magic and Kareem. Worthy was much more efficient, a better passer, and better defender. He was a better defender than people gave him credit for.

[Sarcastic]

They didn't call him Big Game James for nothing. He'd be even higher if he wasn't a sidekick to Magic and Kareem. Worthy was much more efficient, a better passer, and better defender. He was a better defender than people gave him credit for.

He won a Finals MVP playing alongside two of the top 5 players in the history of the game. He is unbelievably underrated.

[DaPerceive]

IMO:



Bird
LeBron
Havlicek
Erving
Pippen
Barry
Baylor
Worthy
Wilkins
Pierce



Barry at 8 is definitely too low. He's around 5-6. Definitely no lower than 6.
LeBron is not the second greatest small forward to ever play. Will he be? More than likely but it is a little pre-mature to make such a statement.


Yes, he doesn't deserve 8th, IMO. However, Top 5 might be streching it. And LeBron isn't done either and his resume is probably already surpassed Barry's for the most part. Barry over Pippen and Baylor seems logical, I suppose.
I really don't agree with LBJ being above Barry. Barry single handily won his team a championship in 75, which is a better accomplishment than anything LeBron has ever done. Barry should be above LeBron and in the top 5.

1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Barry
5. LeBron
6. Pippen
7. Baylor
8. Worthy
9. Pierce
10. Wilkins

[with malice]

I would have (http://with-malice.com/articles/nba/top-10-sfs-all-time.html)...

10. Alex English
9. Dominique Wilkins
8. LeBron James
7. James Worthy
6. Rick Barry
5. Scottie Pippen
4. Julius Erving
3. Elgin Baylor
2. John Havlicek
1. Larry Bird

[RRR3]

I would have (http://with-malice.com/articles/nba/top-10-sfs-all-time.html)...

10. Alex English
9. Dominique Wilkins
8. LeBron James
7. James Worthy
6. Rick Barry
5. Scottie Pippen
4. Julius Erving
3. Elgin Baylor
2. John Havlicek
1. Larry Bird

James Worthy over LeBron and Nique? What are you smoking?

[Nick Young]

Carmelo>Pierce

[Asukal]

Lebron doesn't belong in this conversation until he is past his prime. :cheers:

[RRR3]

Lebron doesn't belong in this conversation until he is past his prime. :cheers:
Bullshit

[Dave3]

Lebron doesn't belong in this conversation until he is past his prime. :cheers:
LeBron in his first 7 years in the league did more than any other SF in history other than Bird. 2 MVP's 6 all star appearances, 4 All NBA first, 2 All NBA second, 2 All NBA 1st defense, and leading multiple weak teams to 50/60 win season/deep into the playoffs. And this is purely from the accomplishment side of things. In terms of talent and actual game impact, none of the other small forwards other than Bird can even compete with him. Elgin Baylor competes in terms of volume stats, but that was
a) in the 60's pace/game, which was completely different
b) on terrible efficiency (which was normal then) (had one season of above 50% TS% in his prime)
c) taking up to 33 FGA/game for the season


Don't understand why everyone seems to rank him any lower than 2 or say stuff like "he'll be 2 when he's done"

What have those guys done to put themselves above him?

[rodman91]

i wonder pauk's opinion about this list...

[Dave3]

i wonder pauk's opinion about this list...
That LeBron is 1-10. We all know he's mildly insane about LeBron lol.

[JohnnySic]

http://www.sportshopdirect.com/Images/products/caseys/1509937450.jpg

[sh0wtime]

That is pretty much spot on, Larry Bird is a top 10 player of all time and Julius Erving, Elgin Baylor, John Havlicek and Lebron James all deserve to be on the top 25 of all time pedestal.

[nbacardDOTnet]

http://www.sportshopdirect.com/Images/products/caseys/1509937450.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Orlando%20Magic/20030223_magicvsnets.jpg

[Odinn]

Alex English should be in top 10. There is a serious fail.

[bagelred]

Where Bernard King be at?

[Legends66NBA7]

LeBron in his first 7 years in the league did more than any other SF in history other than Bird. 2 MVP's 6 all star appearances, 4 All NBA first, 2 All NBA second, 2 All NBA 1st defense, and leading multiple weak teams to 50/60 win season/deep into the playoffs. And this is purely from the accomplishment side of things. In terms of talent and actual game impact, none of the other small forwards other than Bird can even compete with him. Elgin Baylor competes in terms of volume stats, but that was
a) in the 60's pace/game, which was completely different

b) on terrible efficiency (which was normal then) (had one season of above 50% TS% in his prime)

c) taking up to 33 FGA/game for the season

Don't understand why everyone seems to rank him any lower than 2 or say stuff like "he'll be 2 when he's done"

What have those guys done to put themselves above him?


Yeah, efficiency wise, he was above the league average at the time and would be above the average if we adjusted the fg% in today's game. Though, that's not the big case here. I think this puts that 1961-62 season in prespective and exactly why I can see a logical ranking over LeBron:


But Baylor did? have you any idea WHY he shot that much that season? He was in the Army reserve and they called him to serve and he was stationed in Washington. So he could only play when he was on leave which is why he only played 40 something games despite being perfectly healthy. Since he couldnt play every game he went all out to win those he could play and they had an amazing record in the games he played. He would go and drop 40/20/5 damn near every time the Army let him and he helped keep the team going. They had a good season and he was a huge reason for it. Wish I could find the article I read on it once. It was like 7-8 years ago. Long lost. But it was on how respected he was for what he was doing. He would meet them somewhere on leave drop 60 in a big game and be out the same night. They had an ok record even without him but it was great in the games he played if I remember correctly. I know the vast majority of the games he could play were at home(Since he was in washington state...lot easier to get to Cali and back than say...Philly and back). And they went 36-5 at home that year. 18-21 on the road.

Guy was just doing what he had to do. And now people who probably know nothing about him are hating 50 years later over his ****ing points per shot? That man went hard with basketball as his second job at the time and carried them in his off days while also serving in the army. But hes laughable for his PPS?

This stat shit has gone too far. Shit matters more to some people than basketball.

If anything he should be praised for that season. He put in work and did it while also serving his country and leading them to an insane record with him? He got them to within 1 jumper of winning the title that season as a part timer. He flew in from Washington just before the game for the finals. And he had 35, 36, 39, 38, 61, 34, and 41 in the 7 game finals and they lost on a missed shot(not by him) that would have won LA the ring. He got them that close to winning it all. And he couldnt even practice.

But hes a joke for it?

Again, major props to Kblaze.

Also, listen to this video, Baylor was an athlete ahead of his time, when the man couldn't even practice as a part time player:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTCXxjKizog

Elgin Baylor's 61-Point, 22-Rebound Performance Vs. Celtics; Game 5, 1962 NBA Finals:

"The Los Angeles Lakers were making their first Finals appearance and it looked as if they were going to make it a success thanks to Elgin Baylor. The forward poured in a Finals record (and then-playoffs record) 61 points against the Celtics in the Boston Garden, giving the Lakers a 3-2 series lead."


And yes, we all know about LeBron's performances in the Finals. Man has yet to even crank more than 25 points in a finals game. Baylore put his heart on the floor, even under the circumstance he was under.

[Miller for 3]

LeBron is not the second greatest small forward to ever play. Will he be? More than likely but it is a little pre-mature to make such a statement.


I really don't agree with LBJ being above Barry. Barry single handily won his team a championship in 75, which is a better accomplishment than anything LeBron has ever done. Barry should be above LeBron and in the top 5.

1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Barry
5. LeBron
6. Pippen
7. Baylor
8. Worthy
9. Pierce
10. Wilkins

Nice list. Pretty much the same as mine except I would switch Worthy with Dominique

[Jasi]

29 posts in this thread and only one mention of Bernard King.

Shame on you guys.

[pegasus]

29 posts in this thread and only one mention of Bernard King.

Shame on you guys.

:applause:

They should replace the Queen with the Real King! :rockon:

[Niquesports]

LeBron is not the second greatest small forward to ever play. Will he be? More than likely but it is a little pre-mature to make such a statement.


I really don't agree with LBJ being above Barry. Barry single handily won his team a championship in 75, which is a better accomplishment than anything LeBron has ever done. Barry should be above LeBron and in the top 5.

1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Barry
5. LeBron
6. Pippen
7. Baylor
8. Worthy
9. Pierce
10. Wilkins

I went to 2 of the Warriors Bullets Finals game. Barry had lots of help. From Wilks to Phil Smith Butch Bear Clifford Ray Charles Johnson and Al Alttles great coaching job. But Barry was as good as Bird just wasn't a likeable person and the media killed his legacy.
Baylor at 7 at no point in his career was Pippen considered a top 3 player in the league as Baylor was in the early 60's Also Hondo was never as good as Baylor when they faced eached other. IT would be like saying Ginnobi is better than Lebron. Which would be crazy.

[RRR3]

:applause:

They should replace the Queen with the Real King! :rockon:
So Bernard King is better than LeBron now? :rolleyes:

[Niquesports]

Nice list. Pretty much the same as mine except I would switch Worthy with Dominique
I would have to take out PP King Dominique ALex English Bobby Dandrige MArk Aquire Adrain Dantley Bob Love Jammal Wilks Grant Hill Chris Mullin Billy Cunningham I would take all over PP even Vince Carter and T Mac.

[Niquesports]

So Bernard King is better than LeBron now? :rolleyes:

Not just now but always has been. Lebron is a physical beast but at 6'8 250 with handle and passing skills and amazing athletic ability yet he wants to shoot 3's . In y book that makes him self check he is even worst than Dirk

[RRR3]

Not just now but always has been. Lebron is a physical beast but at 6'8 250 with handle and passing skills and amazing athletic ability yet he wants to shoot 3's . In y book that makes him self check he is even worst than Dirk

Wut? Bernard King is better than LeBron James? Are you drunk? What the hell is wrong with this board. :facepalm :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[pegasus]

So Bernard King is better than LeBron now? :rolleyes:

He may seem better now, but every year more and more people see his true collars. By the time he's done, he will be nothing but a wasted talent and won't belong in the top-10 SF list.

[greensborohill]

1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Barry
5. Pippen
6. Baylor
7. James
8. Worthy
9. Pierce
10. Wilkins

[RRR3]

He may seem better now, but every year more and more people see his true collars. By the time he's done, he will be nothing but a wasted talent and won't belong in the top-10 SF list.

Your attempts at seeming objective are pathetic. If you want to have a legitimate discussion on threads such as these, you should try not to let your biases influence your posts so much.

[RRR3]

Also, Dominique Wilkins is getting ridiculously underrated in this thread...

[pegasus]

Your attempts at seeming objective are pathetic. If you want to have a legitimate discussion on threads such as these, you should try not to let your biases influence your posts so much.

I've watched him play for eight years; I've got an opinion, and it's not biased, but just personal.

I really REALLY really believe that he's not even top-5 player in the league right now. His empty stats do nothing for me, hence me leaving him out of the top-10 SF list. So call it what you want, ID'tC.

[RRR3]

I've watched him play for eight years; I've got an opinion, and it's not biased, but just personal.

I really REALLY really believe that he's not even top-5 player in the league right now. His empty stats do nothing for me, hence me leaving him out of the top-10 SF list. So call it what you want, ID'tC.


Not having him top 5 in the league is either biased or ignorant. The only players I've seen people make even half-decent cases for being over him are Dirk, D12, and Wade. He's fourth at worst. You can have him fourth, but there's no way he's lower. If you honestly can't see how you're biased against LeBron, then you are either lying or delusional.

[Niquesports]

Wut? Bernard King is better than LeBron James? Are you drunk? What the hell is wrong with this board. :facepalm :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Not whats wrong whats right is that many look at the game and not ESPN Highlights . Lebron is a freak of a talent but at best just a very good player.

[greensborohill]

Also, Dominique Wilkins is getting ridiculously underrated in this thread...

Wilkins is a forgotten man unfortunately. I always replace Leattner with Wilkins on my dream team roster:

MJ
Magic
Bird
Ewing
Barkley
David
Malone
Stockton
Pippen
Drexler
Mullin
WILKINS!

Just never understood why they wasted a spot on Leattner

[RRR3]

Not whats wrong whats right is that many look at the game and not ESPN Highlights . Lebron is a freak of a talent but at best just a very good player.

Goddammit I'm tired of the LeBron hate. It's out of control. I don't give a crap at this point whether you think he's the best player right now, or is going to be a top 10 or top 15 player ever. But to deny that he's a great player is lunacy.

[greensborohill]

Goddammit I'm tired of the LeBron hate. It's out of control. I don't give a crap at this point whether you think he's the best player right now, or is going to be a top 10 or top 15 player ever. But to deny that he's a great player is lunacy.

What he's trying to say is

GREAT athlete x POOR basketball playing skills = GOOD player

Not saying I agree, but that's what he is saying.

[Niquesports]

He may seem better now, but every year more and more people see his true collars. By the time he's done, he will be nothing but a wasted talent and won't belong in the top-10 SF list.

In so many ways lebron is a more hyped Vince Carter. How can anyone call a player Great when he is scured to enter a dunk contest cause he doesnt want to lose to Nate Robinson . OMGGGGGGG . Jordan Dominique Kobe Vince and on and on all showed their stuff why is the Queen scurrred. Dominique lost to Spud but people still respect Nique Lebron will never win a ring cause he isnt a winner he is hype.

[RRR3]

What he's trying to say is

GREAT athlete x POOR basketball playing skills = GOOD player

Not saying I agree, but that's what he is saying.

That would apply to someone like Stromile Swift, not LeBron james. I didn't realize LeBron's athleticism made him a great passer.

[RRR3]

In so many ways lebron is a more hyped Vince Carter. How can anyone call a player Great when he is scured to enter a dunk contest cause he doesnt want to lose to Nate Robinson . OMGGGGGGG . Jordan Dominique Kobe Vince and on and on all showed their stuff why is the Queen scurrred. Dominique lost to Spud but people still respect Nique Lebron will never win a ring cause he isnt a winner he is hype.

Quite possibly the dumbest post I've ever seen. So you have to enter a dunk contest to be great, eh?

[pegasus]

Not having him top 5 in the league is either biased or ignorant. The only players I've seen people make even half-decent cases for being over him are Dirk, D12, and Wade. He's fourth at worst. You can have him fourth, but there's no way he's lower. If you honestly can't see how you're biased against LeBron, then you are either lying or delusional.

Kobe was better than him in 2010. Last year he was not healthy enough to compete at the level he's capable of. So I would have put Lebron over him, but Lebron failed so miserably that, in my eyes, he doesn't deserve to move up in any list. I'm pretty confident that Kobe will come back healthy and stay in top-5.

Then we have Melo, who is superior to Lebron on the offensive end. He can score from anywhere on the court, and put him in Miami instead of Lebron, they probably sweep the Mavericks.

You may say that Lebron is a lot better defensively, but I wouldn't agree. His man to man defense is average for his position (see the finals), but his help defense, thanks to his highlight plays, makes him seem better.

So here's my top-5 in no particular order: Dirk, DH, Kobe, Melo, Wade.

Sorry, Lebron. You've been out since the 2010 ECF meltdown.

[RRR3]

Kobe was better than him in 2010. Last year he was not healthy enough to compete at the level he's capable of. So I would have put Lebron over him, but Lebron failed so miserably that, in my eyes, he doesn't deserve to move up in any list. I'm pretty confident that Kobe will come back healthy and stay in top-5.

Then we have Melo, who is superior to Lebron on the offensive end. He can score from anywhere on the court, and put him in Miami instead of Lebron, they probably sweep the Mavericks.

You may say that Lebron is a lot better defensively, but I wouldn't agree. His man to man defense is average for his position (see the finals), but his help defense, thanks to his highlight plays, makes him seem better.

So here's my top-5 in no particular order: Dirk, DH, Kobe, Melo, Wade.

Sorry, Lebron. You've been out since the 2010 ECF meltdown.


Your logic is horrendous. Kobe completely flopped in the playoffs this year as well, and Melo has made it past the first round once in his entire career. And no, he's not a better offensive player than LeBron. :facepalm He scores less on worse efficiency and passes a lot less. How the hell is he better? Just because Melo is more aesthetically pleasing to watch doesn't make him better. :hammerhead:

[greensborohill]

LBJ has a lot to prove to a lot of people.

The sad part is, he hasnt owned up to any of his failures. It's all someone elses fault.

The first step in changing something is admitting that something is wrong and taking ownership of it. . . he hasn't done that.

[rodman91]

Lebron James > Bernard King.

Get real.

[Niquesports]

That would apply to someone like Stromile Swift, not LeBron james. I didn't realize LeBron's athleticism made him a great passer.


Your not a "GREAT" passer when team double on you and a player is left open. A great passer is Magic Stockton Nash Isiah Oscar Lebron at best is a very gifted athletic player that doesnt have the drive to win at all cost. He is in the group of Wilt Barkley Vince Carter and BOb Mcadoo

[Niquesports]

Quite possibly the dumbest post I've ever seen. So you have to enter a dunk contest to be great, eh?
I can tell you have no competitive drive in you "Like Lebron" the best want to step up and show they are the best. Not say yes "SAY" oh I dont want to lose to Nate Robinson. MJ kobe would never even fathom the though of losing to a Nate Robinson. Or losing period.

[RRR3]

I can tell you have no competitive drive in you "Like Lebron" the best want to step up and show they are the best. Not say yes "SAY" oh I dont want to lose to Nate Robinson. MJ kobe would never even fathom the though of losing to a Nate Robinson. Or losing period.

I don't even know what you're talking about. This is just incoherent gibberish. MJ and Kobe have had better careers than LeBron obviously, and LeBron won't pass MJ (although I personally think he can pass Kobe, but that's another debate for another thread) so what does that prove?

[RRR3]

Your not a "GREAT" passer when team double on you and a player is left open. A great passer is Magic Stockton Nash Isiah Oscar Lebron at best is a very gifted athletic player that doesnt have the drive to win at all cost. He is in the group of Wilt Barkley Vince Carter and BOb Mcadoo

Wilt is a top 5 player of all time at worst. Barkley is top 15 at worst. McaDoo is a Hall of famer and Vince Carter will be. I don't know why you think you're insulting LeBron by comparing him to Wilt, if anything you're praising him.

[RRR3]

People in this thread must think LeBron isn't even a top 100 player in NBA history. Sad :facepalm

[Niquesports]

Wilt is a top 5 player of all time at worst. Barkley is top 15 at worst. McaDoo is a Hall of famer and Vince Carter will be. I don't know why you think you're insulting LeBron by comparing him to Wilt, if anything you're praising him.
When a player can score 100 points in a game avg 50 ppg for a season get 25 rpg yet even in his era wasnt considered the best C of his time . Thats not praising him thats saying he did everything but win. For most winning is what is most important.

[RRR3]

When a player can score 100 points in a game avg 50 ppg for a season get 25 rpg yet even in his era wasnt considered the best C of his time . Thats not praising him thats saying he did everything but win. For most winning is what is most important.

This is just sad. How many players in NBA history can you name that have had better careers than LeBron?

[Kurosawa0]

I have LeBron at #3 behind Bird and Dr. J. Other than, I don't have a problem with any of it.

[kaiiu]

lol at Lebrick being on this list

[pegasus]

Your logic is horrendous. Kobe completely flopped in the playoffs this year as well, and Melo has made it past the first round once in his entire career. And no, he's not a better offensive player than LeBron. :facepalm He scores less on worse efficiency and passes a lot less. How the hell is he better? Just because Melo is more aesthetically pleasing to watch doesn't make him better. :hammerhead:

Just because Lebron protects his field goal percentage like a mother would do her baby, doesn't mean he's a more efficient scorer.

And I just laugh at Lebron passes more comment. He hogs the ball like there is no tomorrow and passes it only when he knows he's getting an assist or when there are only 2-3 seconds left on the shot clock. :oldlol:

He's got a good vision, I'll give him that, but he doesn't even use that to better his team, but instead uses it to inflate his assists. A player with good vision and a team-oriented mind would sometimes make the pass that would lead to someone else getting an assist, but it's never the case with Lebron.

And you were dead-on about Melo's game being more aesthetic to watch. Lebron plays like a big piece of log.

[kaiiu]

and Bernard King>> Brick James not even close

[RRR3]

Just because Lebron protects his field goal percentage like a mother would do her baby, doesn't mean he's a more efficient scorer.

And I just laugh at Lebron passes more comment. He hogs the ball like there is no tomorrow and passes it only when he knows he's getting an assist or when there are only 2-3 seconds left on the shot clock. :oldlol:

He's got a good vision, I'll give him that, but he doesn't even use that to better his team, but instead uses it to inflate his assists. A player with good vision and a team-oriented mind would sometimes make the pass that would lead to someone else getting an assist, but it's never the case with Lebron.

And you were dead-on about Melo's game being more aesthetic to watch. Lebron plays like a big piece of log.

Ah yes ,the ever-popular "LeBron protects his field goal percentage" myth. Funny how takes 4.2 threes per game for his career (including years 4.8, 4.7, 4.8 and 5.1) when he's a career 32.9 shooter from three. Hardly "protecting" his field goal percentage. If he wanted to protect his FG percentage so badly, he'd stop taking so many threes.

[kaiiu]

Just because Lebron protects his field goal percentage like a mother would do her baby, doesn't mean he's a more efficient scorer.

And I just laugh at Lebron passes more comment. He hogs the ball like there is no tomorrow and passes it only when he knows he's getting an assist or when there are only 2-3 seconds left on the shot clock. :oldlol:

He's got a good vision, I'll give him that, but he doesn't even use that to better his team, but instead uses it to inflate his assists. A player with good vision and a team-oriented mind would sometimes make the pass that would lead to someone else getting an assist, but it's never the case with Lebron.

And you were dead-on about Melo's game being more aesthetic to watch. Lebron plays like a big piece of log.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Niquesports]

Ah yes ,the ever-popular "LeBron protects his field goal percentage" myth. Funny how takes 4.2 threes per game for his career (including years 4.8, 4.7, 4.8 and 5.1) when he's a career 32.9 shooter from three. Hardly "protecting" his field goal percentage. If he wanted to protect his FG percentage so badly, he'd stop taking so many threes.

If he had a better understanding of the game he would use his size to post up and kill defense with a mid range game. who could stop him with his size and passing skills. Im 5'7 170lbs If I was checking Lebron I would pray he hits his 3's cause he would kill me inside . Too bad he cant see he would kill the whole league inside 10ft. No one could defend him.

[Miller for 3]

Just because Lebron protects his field goal percentage like a mother would do her baby, doesn't mean he's a more efficient scorer.

And I just laugh at Lebron passes more comment. He hogs the ball like there is no tomorrow and passes it only when he knows he's getting an assist or when there are only 2-3 seconds left on the shot clock. :oldlol:

He's got a good vision, I'll give him that, but he doesn't even use that to better his team, but instead uses it to inflate his assists. A player with good vision and a team-oriented mind would sometimes make the pass that would lead to someone else getting an assist, but it's never the case with Lebron.

And you were dead-on about Melo's game being more aesthetic to watch. Lebron plays like a big piece of log.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[D.J.]

LeBron is not the second greatest small forward to ever play. Will he be? More than likely but it is a little pre-mature to make such a statement.


Yes he is. He's dominated for long enough. He's been putting up Jordan/Bird numbers for the last 5-6 years. I don't even like LeBron, but I'll admit he's the greatest SF not named Bird.

[mountainmamba]

I am not a lebron fan at all but imagine a game of one on one between prime lebron and prime bird or prime dr. j. Wouldnt be close probable.

[Niquesports]

I am not a lebron fan at all but imagine a game of one on one between prime lebron and prime bird or prime dr. j. Wouldnt be close probable.
It would not be close . Lebron would shoot 3's Doc and Bird would kill him with a mid game . But Lebron would have a incredible dunk and it would show up on ESPN . But the winner would be Doc and Bird.

[Lebron23]

These 30 yrs.old and above trolls ruined this thread. Pegasus and Greensbrohill are a bunch of V@gina looking f@gots.

[Dave3]

Goddammit I'm tired of the LeBron hate. It's out of control. I don't give a crap at this point whether you think he's the best player right now, or is going to be a top 10 or top 15 player ever. But to deny that he's a great player is lunacy.
:facepalm Don't bother. If someone hates irrationally, there's no rational way to teach them anything. Apparently to these guys the following are not skills:

Basketball IQ
Court Vision
Passing
Defensive Rebounding (he's a skilled defensive rebounder but poor offensive rebounder, so his overall rebounding numbers don't look that good)
Moving feet on defense and staying on front of your man
Defensive awareness and help defense
Reading the passing lanes
Timing blocking shots
Mid range shooting (one of the biggest skills they deny he has. He shoots 3rd best in the league (at the highest volume in the league) by accident right?:rolleyes:
Free throw shooting (yeah, people will say he's "LeBrick" but turn around and call Tmac an amazing shooter...well they both shoot high 70s from the free throw line, yet when it's LeBron, he's unskilled)
Finishing - apparently he's just big and athletic which magically puts the ball in the rim, not like he's actually putting it in himself over the defense because he's excellent at finishing layups)
Ball handling
Using your left hand

None of those are skills to certain idiots. Pretty much the only skills he's actually missing is low post smooth footwork (his footwork is actually often effective but ugly, and when it's not effective it's REALLY ugly)
3 point shooting (mediocre at best 33% 3FG shooter)
Off the ball movement (though he was much better at it in Cleveland than Miami, but people forget too quickly)
And he can improve his FT shooting, but he's definitely good enough at it for it to be considered a skill he possesses, not lacks.

If LeBron was all athleticism and no skill, he'd be James White or Darius Miles. Notice the size of gap between White and James? That gap is called skill.

[Legends66NBA7]

RRR3 maintained a good stance
Dave3 dropped knowledge (but to deaf ears, most likely)
LeBron23 said it like it is :P.

[Math2]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-small-forwards-in-NBA-history#photo-title=Small%20forwards,%20big%20feats&photo=30170275

Reasons for the choices are in the link.

1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. John Havlicek
4. Elgin Baylor
5. LeBron James Ha!
6. Scottie Pippen
7. James Worthy
8. Rick Barry
9. Dominique Wilkins
10. Paul Pierce Ha!

James over Pippen? And Barry?

[Dave3]

RRR3 maintained a good stance
Dave3 dropped knowledge (but to deaf ears, most likely)
LeBron23 said it like it is :P.
Apparently if it doesn't look pretty, it's athleticism and not skill...

You saw exactly how an unathletic LeBron (or at least good athlete, not super freakish like Cleveland) would play just this last year. He wasn't nearly as quick or explosive as he used to be. He had averages of 28 ppg on 56% FG over the last 2 months of the season. He started out the season terrible because he was with a new team and spent the entire season with his numbers improving.

Everyone spent the entire season talking about how is athleticism disappeared, yet in the last 3 months of the season he averaged 27, 28, and 29 ppg on 53%, 58%, and 55% FG%. He was dropping midrange jumpers as well as as pretty much anyone except for Dirk, and scoring without the freakish athleticism people insist he relies on. But because it's LeBron, "no, he's just athletic"

[Niquesports]

James over Pippen? And Barry?


At his best Elgin was much better than Hondo. Injuries hurt Baylors greatness as Being on winning teams helped Hondo. But as a player Elgin was the better.

I'd take Barry over Worthy but a Worthy Jordan combo would have been just as good if not better than Pip and MJ. So I take Worthy over Pip.

[Legends66NBA7]

Apparently if it doesn't look pretty, it's athleticism and not skill...

You saw exactly how an unathletic LeBron (or at least good athlete, not super freakish like Cleveland) would play just this last year. He wasn't nearly as quick or explosive as he used to be. He had averages of 28 ppg on 56% FG over the last 2 months of the season. He started out the season terrible because he was with a new team and spent the entire season with his numbers improving.

Everyone spent the entire season talking about how is athleticism disappeared, yet in the last 3 months of the season he averaged 27, 28, and 29 ppg on 53%, 58%, and 55% FG%. He was dropping midrange jumpers as well as as pretty much anyone except for Dirk, and scoring without the freakish athleticism people insist he relies on. But because it's LeBron, "no, he's just athletic"

Yeah, it comes back as how baffling some of these trolls are. Obvious trolling is obvious, though.

Let's look at LeBron's mid range the last 5 years, from 16-23 feet:

2007: 153-446 34.0%fg
2008: 156-424 37.0%fg
2009: 177-448 40.0%fg
2010: 166-413 40.0%fg
2011: 189-424 45.0%fg

Last season, that midrange line was better than the other Top 5 scorers in Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade, and Kobe Bryant.

Yet, he doesn't have this skill ? That's stone cold fact he has been improving every year in that department.

[JordanTime]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-small-forwards-in-NBA-history#photo-title=Small%20forwards,%20big%20feats&photo=30170275

Reasons for the choices are in the link.

1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. John Havlicek
4. Elgin Baylor
5. LeBron James
6. Scottie Pippen
7. James Worthy
8. Rick Barry
9. Dominique Wilkins
10. Paul Pierce


hmm. looks pretty.

5 years from now, Lebron James will be number 1 on that list.

[JordanTime]

hmm. looks pretty.

5 years from now, Lebron James will be number 1 on that list.


oh god! Nevermind.

Elgin Baylor should move down a couple of spots, because of his inability to win a title in his 13 year career while playing alongside Jerry West and Wilt.

Rick Barry should be ahead of James Worthy.

[LBJ 23]

Yeah, it comes back as how baffling some of these trolls are. Obvious trolling is obvious, though.

Let's look at LeBron's mid range the last 5 years, from 16-23 feet:

2007: 153-446 34.0%fg
2008: 156-424 37.0%fg
2009: 177-448 40.0%fg
2010: 166-413 40.0%fg
2011: 189-424 45.0%fg

Last season, that midrange line was better than the other Top 5 scorers in Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade, and Kobe Bryant.

Yet, he doesn't have this skill ? That's stone cold fact he has been improving every year in that department.


You fool! It's only because defenders are leaving him open and giving him a lot of free space. If Kobe shoots a midrange jumper, uffff, all 10 hands of his opponents are in front of his face.

[kaiiu]

lol any decent NBA player could shoot a decent % on mid range if they are left open like Lebrick

[LBJ 23]

lol any decent NBA player could shoot a decent % on mid range if they are left open like Lebrick



My point excatly

[che guevara]

Apparently if it doesn't look pretty, it's athleticism and not skill...

You saw exactly how an unathletic LeBron (or at least good athlete, not super freakish like Cleveland) would play just this last year. He wasn't nearly as quick or explosive as he used to be. He had averages of 28 ppg on 56% FG over the last 2 months of the season. He started out the season terrible because he was with a new team and spent the entire season with his numbers improving.

Everyone spent the entire season talking about how is athleticism disappeared, yet in the last 3 months of the season he averaged 27, 28, and 29 ppg on 53%, 58%, and 55% FG%. He was dropping midrange jumpers as well as as pretty much anyone except for Dirk, and scoring without the freakish athleticism people insist he relies on. But because it's LeBron, "no, he's just athletic"
His midrange jumper after the allstar game was freakishly good. For the last 3 months of the season, he shot a higher % from 16-23 feet (52.3%) than ANYBODY ELSE IN THE LEAGUE - that includes Dirk, Nash, Ray Allen, Steph Curry, Jason Terry, etc. If going from one of the worst midrange shooters in the league in 2007 to THE BEST for a 3 month stretch doesn't require practice, skill, work ethic, and whatever else Lebron haters like to claim he doesn't have, then nothing does. And if you claim he's only shooting that well because defenders dare him to shoot, you're either not watching the games or you're an inattentive dimwit. Not many NBA defenders are dumb enough to just let a guy shoot a 52% shot.

Imagine what he would've done if he still had the athleticism he did in Cleveland. As it is, he's arguably the best player in the league and he's not even a top 10 athlete anymore. I'm hoping his improved shooting extends out to the 3 point this season, he hasn't really made any improvement there in a few years (same with FT shooting, too).

[che guevara]

you said Wade is better than LeBron on RealGM though. Are you trying to change your mind here or what? :confusedshrug:


As it is, he's arguably the best player in the league and he's not even a top 10 athlete anymore.
Key word.

[che guevara]

true dat, what is your top 5 if you don't mind me asking, you don't have to give me reasons, just a top 5. I know Wade should be above LeBron, at least if you stick consistent to what you say.
As of last season, probably

1. Wade
2. Lebron
3. Dirk
4. Dwight
5. Durant/CP3

[Dave3]

His midrange jumper after the allstar game was freakishly good. For the last 3 months of the season, he shot a higher % from 16-23 feet (52.3%) than ANYBODY ELSE IN THE LEAGUE - that includes Dirk, Nash, Ray Allen, Steph Curry, Jason Terry, etc. If going from one of the worst midrange shooters in the league in 2007 to THE BEST for a 3 month stretch doesn't require practice, skill, work ethic, and whatever else Lebron haters like to claim he doesn't have, then nothing does. And if you claim he's only shooting that well because defenders dare him to shoot, you're either not watching the games or you're an inattentive dimwit. Not many NBA defenders are dumb enough to just let a guy shoot a 52% shot.

Imagine what he would've done if he still had the athleticism he did in Cleveland. As it is, he's arguably the best player in the league and he's not even a top 10 athlete anymore. I'm hoping his improved shooting extends out to the 3 point this season, he hasn't really made any improvement there in a few years (same with FT shooting, too).
From the exhibition games it looks like he regained a lot of speed over the summer. This upcoming season (if he wasn't playing with Wade) I think it would be his best season. He's gained a big portion of speed and explosiveness back, and he's now even more skilled than he was when he dominating teams in 2009, and infinitely more skilled than 2007 when he went to the finals. It could've been a very legendary upcoming season to watch. And we might not even have a freaking season:facepalm

[with malice]

James Worthy over LeBron and Nique? What are you smoking?
Homer.
At this point in time, LeBron hasn't accomplished what Worthy has. He may well one day, but at the moment? He's around par with Wilkins.


Also, Dominique Wilkins is getting ridiculously underrated in this thread...
Yet you moaned when I had him ahead of LBJ...

However, I agree with you on this, and the bolded part especially:

I don't give a crap at this point whether you think he's the best player right now, or is going to be a top 10 or top 15 player ever. But to deny that he's a great player is lunacy.
I absolutely think he's amazing. And despite the anxiety shown in the NBA Finals last season, I think he's the best player currently in the league.
I just happen to think that his place in history is lower than where you have him placed... but that's not written in stone yet, is it?



Don't understand why everyone seems to rank him any lower than 2 or say stuff like "he'll be 2 when he's done"

What have those guys done to put themselves above him?
To answer your second question first: won.
Now the first bit: lists are done on what you've done, not what your potential is. As they say, potential plus 5 bucks'll get you a cup of coffee.
Now, sure - LeBron has achieved quite a bit. But he's also achieved quite a bit of negative on the court as well. Pretty much no guy on a top 10 SF list has gagged on the moment quite like LeBron Raymone James, and that will take some getting over (you could almost say James Worthy is the anti-LeBron!). It's pretty much guaranteed that he'll never, ever overtake Bird for #1 spot on this list.



5 years from now, Lebron James will be number 1 on that list.
Quite possibly #2. But 1?
Not.
Even.
Close.

[Dave3]

To answer your second question first: won.
Now the first bit: lists are done on what you've done, not what your potential is. As they say, potential plus 5 bucks'll get you a cup of coffee.
Now, sure - LeBron has achieved quite a bit. But he's also achieved quite a bit of negative on the court as well. Pretty much no guy on a top 10 SF list has gagged on the moment quite like LeBron Raymone James, and that will take some getting over (you could almost say James Worthy is the anti-LeBron!). It's pretty much guaranteed that he'll never, ever overtake Bird for #1 spot on this list.

What has Baylor won? He's ranked ahead, and yet LeBron is a better player. I saw the KBlaze post about how good he was and how he had other commitments, but based on the reason you're giving (which is only winning) Baylor shouldn't be above LeBron.

Hondo is not close statistically (in an era with very inflated stats, his stats would translate to like 18/5/4 in today's game) or impactfully close to LeBron in any aspect of basketball except FT shooting. Just because he spent his career with Russell and the biggest dynasty ever he's better than LeBron?

And Erving didn't win crap on his own and was way past his prime as a sidekick to Moses to win his lone title. How does that put him above LeBron when LeBron was clearly a better player in literally every single aspect? A title isn't magical enough to just randomly catapult you over someone way better than you just because they haven't won. Do you also take Erving over Barkley and Malone?

Situation doesn't make one player better than another. In 2005 Tony Parker wasn't better than Kidd. Tony Parker "won" while Kidd didn't And the difference between Parker and Kidd is smaller than the difference between LeBron and Hondo.

[with malice]

What has Baylor won? He's ranked ahead, and yet LeBron is a better player. I saw the KBlaze post about how good he was and how he had other commitments, but based on the reason you're giving (which is only winning) Baylor shouldn't be above LeBron.

Hondo is not close statistically (in an era with very inflated stats, his stats would translate to like 18/5/4 in today's game) or impactfully close to LeBron in any aspect of basketball except FT shooting. Just because he spent his career with Russell and the biggest dynasty ever he's better than LeBron?

And Erving didn't win crap on his own and was way past his prime as a sidekick to Moses to win his lone title. How does that put him above LeBron when LeBron was clearly a better player in literally every single aspect? A title isn't magical enough to just randomly catapult you over someone way better than you just because they haven't won. Do you also take Erving over Barkley and Malone?

Situation doesn't make one player better than another. In 2005 Tony Parker wasn't better than Kidd. Tony Parker "won" while Kidd didn't And the difference between Parker and Kidd is smaller than the difference between LeBron and Hondo.
If you took my post to indicate that I merely looked at winning, then you are mistaken.
And comparisons between eras are inevitably flawed, as the the person doing so rarely looks at the full picture, just posting something that furthers their own argument. To deride Dr J like that is surprising. As I stated, you cannot simply look at the positives of a player's game, the negatives have to be considered as well. And whilst I think that LeBron's a pretty amazing player, he has some pretty big negatives to overcome.

[Dave3]

If you took my post to indicate that I merely looked at winning, then you are mistaken.
And comparisons between eras are inevitably flawed, as the the person doing so rarely looks at the full picture, just posting something that furthers their own argument. To deride Dr J like that is surprising. As I stated, you cannot simply look at the positives of a player's game, the negatives have to be considered as well. And whilst I think that LeBron's a pretty amazing player, he has some pretty big negatives to overcome.
It's not deriding Dr J to say LeBron's better in every aspect of basketball. LeBron's 2009-2010 seasons and playoffs were on the level very few players have ever seen, especially 2009. Posters (who were pretty respectable) were saying in early 2010 that LeBron was playing literally as good as Jordan ever did (he was virtually perfect on the court for a pretty long period of time). How is saying Dr J doesn't measure up to that insulting? He was just flat out, not better. What have I said to further my argument that isn't true? And you didn't really give any other reason than winning, so there wasn't much for me to go on lol.

[with malice]

"lol" all you like. I provided a link in my list.
As has been pointed out to you in *other* threads, there's the cerebral aspect of the game. If you choose to overlook LeBron's anxiety issues in big games, that's your prerogative. But it's there, and really should be addressed. Once LeBron overcomes it (and I'm pretty sure he will), then climbing this particular list is inevitable.
Just not as it stands now.

[che guevara]

"lol" all you like. I provided a link in my list.
As has been pointed out to you in *other* threads, there's the cerebral aspect of the game. If you choose to overlook LeBron's anxiety issues in big games, that's your prerogative. But it's there, and really should be addressed. Once LeBron overcomes it (and I'm pretty sure he will), then climbing this particular list is inevitable.
Just not as it stands now.
There's no reason to take you seriously if you have Worthy ahead of Lebron.

[Dave3]

"lol" all you like. I provided a link in my list.
As has been pointed out to you in *other* threads, there's the cerebral aspect of the game. If you choose to overlook LeBron's anxiety issues in big games, that's your prerogative. But it's there, and really should be addressed. Once LeBron overcomes it (and I'm pretty sure he will), then climbing this particular list is inevitable.
Just not as it stands now.
Yeah, but when I asked what they did, all you said was "win" so it was the only thing I could reply to. And LeBron hasn't had issues with big games before this finals. People are rewriting history because of what happened once. His entire playoff career, he went down fighting. In 2006 against a much better Piston's team, in 2007 he beat the much better Piston's team, and lost to a way better Spurs team, in 2008 he scored 45 points in game 7 battling it out with the Celtics even though he played very poorly in the first couple of games in the series he stepped up at the end. And in Orlando in 2009 he went down averaging 38/8/8 hitting multiple clutch shots and free throws (it wasn't just the gamewinner). Where in all of that is the so called anxiety? I don't bring up 2010 because I actually do think there was something wrong with his elbow, and 2011 was the only year where you actually saw him "choke" but even up until that point he was killing teams in the clutch.

The problem with your argument is you spend it arguing LeBron down but you haven't given a single reason to put someone like Hondo or Dr J above him other than "winning." Make arguments for the players over LeBron, not just point out his weaknesses as if they didn't have any.

[with malice]

There's no reason to take you seriously if you have Worthy ahead of Lebron.
And there's every reason to believe you haven't watched a single game James Worthy played.


Yeah, but when I asked what they did, all you said was "win" so it was the only thing I could reply to.
Oh come on. I had you figured for someone who could read beyond what's immediate.


And LeBron hasn't had issues with big games before this finals.
Really? So the 2010 playoffs, when he went AWOL against the Celtics - never happened. Or the season before that in game 6 against the Magic...



The problem with your argument is you spend it arguing LeBron down but you haven't given a single reason to put someone like Hondo or Dr J above him other than "winning." Make arguments for the players over LeBron, not just point out his weaknesses as if they didn't have any.
The reverse is true. The problem with your argument is that you've made no attempt to address the issue of LeBron's big-game anxiety, and simply continue to insist "it never happened".

No-one's said he's a "bad player". No-one's disrespecting him at all. But to say that he has some very real issues when it comes to the very big moments, well... it's delusional. I don't believe you're delusional. You know that problem exists. I know it. Everyone knows. Hell, I'm betting even LeBron James knows it, and is most likely working towards getting the better of it.

[Dave3]

And there's every reason to believe you haven't watched a single game James Worthy played.


Oh come on. I had you figured for someone who could read beyond what's immediate.


Really? So the 2010 playoffs, when he went AWOL against the Celtics - never happened. Or the season before that in game 6 against the Magic...


The reverse is true. The problem with your argument is that you've made no attempt to address the issue of LeBron's big-game anxiety, and simply continue to insist "it never happened".

No-one's said he's a "bad player". No-one's disrespecting him at all. But to say that he has some very real issues when it comes to the very big moments, well... it's delusional. I don't believe you're delusional. You know that problem exists. I know it. Everyone knows. Hell, I'm betting even LeBron James knows it, and is most likely working towards getting the better of it.
You're blatantly misquoting me. I admitted very clearly it DID happen in 2011. I explained that 2010 I actually do believe he hurt his elbow, and prior to that, it never did happen, as I explained year by year what happened. You're again avoiding my question of what those players' advantages are over LeBron. You haven't answered that question. You keep talking about something I answer. He didn't choke anytime from 2006-2009, 2010 he was injured, and 2011 he actually did choke, but up until that point he was very clutch. What have I failed to address? You're not even quoting my whole post then saying I haven't answered when the answer is in the part of the post you didn't quote...

[che guevara]

And there's every reason to believe you haven't watched a single game James Worthy played.
Nice one. No, watching the games would just make the difference between Worthy and Lebron even clearer. Lebron in 7 of his 8 seasons has played at a level Worthy never even sniffed. As Kblaze would say, if you are at all interested in how well they play basketball, Lebron is going to be ranked higher. We're talking about a superstar who's a 2x MVP, 5x All-NBA 1st team, 3x All-D etc. who's been in the discussion for the best player in the league for the last 6 or so seasons vs. a 2nd-3rd option who happened to play with Magic Johnson. There's no comparison whatsoever. I'm not sure Worthy's even as good as prime Paul Pierce or Melo, let alone Lebron James.

[Lebron23]

Top 5

1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Scottie Pippen

F*ck you With Malice. I am going to personally shove your face into Kobe's butt.

[DMAVS41]

If people actually think Worthy was better than Lebron....then this site is worthless.

Lebron is now on the verge of being one of the most under-rated players of all time.

[with malice]

You're blatantly misquoting me. I admitted very clearly it DID happen in 2011. I explained that 2010 I actually do believe he hurt his elbow, and prior to that, it never did happen, as I explained year by year what happened. You're again avoiding my question of what those players' advantages are over LeBron. You haven't answered that question. You keep talking about something I answer. He didn't choke anytime from 2006-2009, 2010 he was injured, and 2011 he actually did choke, but up until that point he was very clutch. What have I failed to address? You're not even quoting my whole post then saying I haven't answered when the answer is in the part of the post you didn't quote...
Blatantly misquoting you? C'mon, you said exactly what I quoted. I didn't doctor them at all.

Now, chill a bit and don't be so pedantic: I rank Worthy higher because I believe Worthy's body of work to be greater than that which LeBron has achieved at this point in time - the '87 championship team was one of the greatest teams of all time, and Worthy was an integral part of that.
Do I think LeBron will surpass him? Yes. Absolutely.
But I believe LeBron needs to win a ring, and be the key reason for doing so before he's going to climb a lot higher on lists such as these.


Nice one. No, watching the games would just make the difference between Worthy and Lebron even clearer. Lebron in 7 of his 8 seasons has played at a level Worthy never even sniffed. As Kblaze would say, if you are at all interested in how well they play basketball, Lebron is going to be ranked higher. We're talking about a superstar who's a 2x MVP, 5x All-NBA 1st team, 3x All-D etc. who's been in the discussion for the best player in the league for the last 6 or so seasons vs. a 2nd-3rd option who happened to play with Magic Johnson. There's no comparison whatsoever. I'm not sure Worthy's even as good as prime Paul Pierce or Melo, let alone Lebron James.
Great. I'll respond with a question: am I alone in thinking that at the moment LeBron James is around this ranking?

Additionally, that last comment is simply incredible.



F*ck you With Malice. I am going to personally shove your face into Kobe's butt.
Look, I'm sorry. I never meant to make some kid cry.

[with malice]

If people actually think Worthy was better than Lebron....then this site is worthless.

Lebron is now on the verge of being one of the most under-rated players of all time.
Fair call. But you might want to check around: not everyone's as high on LeBron as you might wish.

And conversely, go to ESPN mid-season if you truly believe that last comment.

[whatever666]

1. Larry Bird -
Best career by a SF.

2. Lebron James -
Most talented SF ever with great accomplishments already.

3. Elgin Baylor -
He was actually a PF but whatever yea he started SF aswell, ok accomplishments.

4. Julius Erving -
How much do u value ABA accomplishments? because thats all he has basically, but he has done enough.

5. Rick Barry -
Great player and good enough accomplishments

6. Dominique Wilkins -
one of the most talented SF's ever, with ok accomplishments.

7. Paul Pierce -
one of the most talented SF's ever, with ok accomplishments.

8. John Havlicek -
the best SF sidekick ever, i dont rank sidekicks high, they dont belong up there with the alpha dogs.

9. Scottie Pippen -
2nd best SF sidekick ever.

10. James Worthy -
3rd best SF sidekick ever.

[whatever666]

If people actually think Worthy was better than Lebron....then this site is worthless.

Lebron is now on the verge of being one of the most under-rated players of all time.

Thats why i havent been posting in about 2 years. This forum has become a Lebron bashing center, yes i know the greater you are the more haters you will have, but this is annoying in a basketball forum.

[with malice]

Thats why i havent been posting in about 2 years. This forum has become a Lebron bashing center, yes i know the greater you are the more haters you will have, but this is annoying in a basketball forum.
So... unless everyone thinks exactly the same as you on the subject of LeBron James, it's "bashing".

I'll admit: he annoys me. But I do agree that he's overall the best player in the game today. I just disagree with you on his place in history. Thus far.

[whatever666]

So... unless everyone thinks exactly the same as you on the subject of LeBron James, it's "bashing".

I'll admit: he annoys me. But I do agree that he's overall the best player in the game today. I just disagree with you on his place in history. Thus far.

No, you know perfectly what i am talking about.

I am talking about them who will spam Lebron bashing threads 24-7 and Lebron bashing posts 24-7, where many Lebron haters wont even do that but secretly hate him, like in threads such as these. They all have an agenda in each post they make, trying to hide their message, but its quite clear. Its actually them who will be upset with you having a differing opinion, its actually them who will be upset for YOU not hating Lebron.

There is a difference between discussing basketball in a factual manner and sharing knowledge that way back and forth, because you then at least know the guys differing opinion has some logic and sense, but that isnt the case here most of the time with any Lebron hater, their delusional opinions discrediting his accomplishments and talent-skill is quite obvious and annoying.

[with malice]

No, you know perfectly what i am talking about.

I am talking about them who will spam Lebron bashing threads 24-7 and Lebron bashing posts 24-7, where many Lebron haters wont even do that but secretly hate him, like in threads such as these. They all have an agenda in each post they make, trying to hide their message, but its quite clear. Its actually them who will be upset with you having a differing opinion, its actually them who will be upset for YOU not hating Lebron.

There is a difference between discussing basketball in a factual manner and sharing knowledge that way back and forth, because you then at least know the guys differing opinion has some logic and sense, but that isnt the case here most of the time with any Lebron hater, their delusional opinions discrediting his accomplishments and talent-skill is quite obvious and annoying.
Ok. I get that... and yes, it's annoying. I thought you were referring to *me* specifically.
I agree that on most basketball forums people insist that you fit into one group or the other. Additionally, if you don't like James you must agree that he's not a good basketballer.
That's ridiculous. I don't like the guy, but I can acknowledge that he's one hell of a player. Hell, I hated Bird too.

[whatever666]

I didnt like Lebrons performance in the Finals, neither did i like how the departure from Cleveland was handled, but he does not deserve this magnitude of hate, people here are insulting him and his family, his personal life to infinity, they even discredit every bit of his accomplishments and talent-skill due to the hate, not all but pretty many.

I havent seen a player be this much hated for absolutely no logical reason ever, i mean its like he has just raped somebody, had some guns in his locker room having a drive-by, having legal problems with marijuana-cocain and so on, playing selfish basketball, getting fined, getting technicals, fighting and trashtalking on the court.

You know, there is actually very many such players in the NBA and none of them recieve the hate Lebron does, i just dont get it.

[chazzy]

Thats why i havent been posting in about 2 years
Welcome back pauk

[Hondo]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-small-forwards-in-NBA-history#photo-title=Small%20forwards,%20big%20feats&photo=30170275

Reasons for the choices are in the link.

1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. John Havlicek
4. Elgin Baylor
5. LeBron James
6. Scottie Pippen
7. James Worthy
8. Rick Barry
9. Dominique Wilkins
10. Paul Pierce

I'm a huge Pierce fan and Celtics fan for life, but it seems weird seeing Pierce's name up there. Isn't there someone that can take his place? Alex English or Adrian Dantley???? A finals MVP surely can't push a player that high

[pauk]

Welcome back pauk

thank you... dunno why u talk to him tho... where was i anyways? lmao

[Niquesports]

I'm a huge Pierce fan and Celtics fan for life, but it seems weird seeing Pierce's name up there. Isn't there someone that can take his place? Alex English or Adrian Dantley???? A finals MVP surely can't push a player that high
ITs no way I can put Pierce in any top 10 .Sometimes you have to say if this never happened how would the player rank. IF KG Ray and Rondo didnt help the Celtics win all but KG would had missed the HOF . Now all 3 more than likely will make it.I'd take Chris Mullin over paul every day of the week
A few others Id take over PP

Grant Hill
Bobby Dandrige
Jammal Wilks
Dominique Wilkins
Marques Johnson
Mark Agurie
Adrain Dantley

[Dave3]

Blatantly misquoting you? C'mon, you said exactly what I quoted. I didn't doctor them at all.


Really? so when I say:



2011 was the only year where you actually saw him "choke" but even up until that point he was killing teams in the clutch.


and you say


LeBron's big-game anxiety, and simply continue to insist "it never happened".
that's not misquoting?

Or when I say I thought LeBron's play in 2010 was because he was injured and you say



So the 2010 playoffs, when he went AWOL against the Celtics - never happened.

as if I didn't already address that.

Then I clearly explain, year by year, what happened in the playoffs for LeBron from 2006-2009 (4 straight years) going over how he was defeated exactly every year, and you say



The problem with your argument is that you've made no attempt to address the issue of LeBron's big-game anxiety, and simply continue to insist "it never happened".

when I did in fact disprove this persistent "anxiety" by showing it's only happened once in his career.




Now, chill a bit and don't be so pedantic: I rank Worthy higher because I believe Worthy's body of work to be greater than that which LeBron has achieved at this point in time - the '87 championship team was one of the greatest teams of all time, and Worthy was an integral part of that.


Then you tell me to chill as if you're not the one making the mistake...

Worthy has no body of work over LeBron. Worthy has only that ring. Worthy never even had an argument for being the best player on his team. You're comparing a clear sidekick to a player that's been top 5 in the league since 2006, and the best player in the league for arguably the last 3 years. Worthy is a freaking career 18/5/3 guy to a 28/7/7 guy and saying he's better. Don't give me crap about "yeah but you didn't watch him"

I don't need to have watched Cousy to know he's not better than Kobe, nor did I need to watch Dr. J to know he's not better than Jordan. Some things are just obvious. For you to tell me a player who's PRIME was 21/6/4 was better than a guy who's dropped 30/9/7 for a season is ludicrous. The single argument you think you have is he won a championship. That's it. No argument about being a better scorer, rebounder, passes, playmaker, defender, etc. Not a single argument there. Just "body of work" when LeBron's far surpasses his. I suppose you rank Tony Parker above Chris Paul and Billups above Stockton since the latter two haven't won a FMVP and the former have. It's the exact same logic you're providing. LeBron chokes once, and all of a sudden you look at his entire career as a choker, when he's been quite clutch for the majority of it.

[with malice]

when I did in fact disprove this persistent "anxiety" by showing it's only happened once in his career.
Wait, you disproved it? Sorry, but that's not the way the way everyone sees it. Merely on your whim doesn't make it so.
Tho' I have to admit, you were doing very, very well... until your last post. You bricked it there.


Then you tell me to chill as if you're not the one making the mistake...

No... I told you to chill because you're the one getting upset. Once more, chill Dave. It's a forum. It's ok if some people disagree with you.



Worthy has no body of work over LeBron. Worthy has only that ring. Worthy never even had an argument for being the best player on his team. You're comparing a clear sidekick to a player that's been top 5 in the league since 2006, and the best player in the league for arguably the last 3 years. Worthy is a freaking career 18/5/3 guy to a 28/7/7 guy and saying he's better. Don't give me crap about "yeah but you didn't watch him"

I don't need to have watched Cousy to know he's not better than Kobe, nor did I need to watch Dr. J to know he's not better than Jordan. Some things are just obvious.
Ummm... rings. Plural. Three.
Oh. And a Finals MVP, where he was clearly the best player in the Finals series. A Finals series.
And then you deride him for being the third best player on a team with Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Dave? LeBron James would be the third best player on a team with Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

And your last comment? Thank you. That was awesome.

[Dave3]

Wait, you disproved it? Sorry, but that's not the way the way everyone sees it. Merely on your whim doesn't make it so.
Tho' I have to admit, you were doing very, very well... until your last post. You bricked it there.

No... I told you to chill because you're the one getting upset. Once more, chill Dave. It's a forum. It's ok if some people disagree with you.

Ummm... rings. Plural. Three.
Oh. And a Finals MVP, where he was clearly the best player in the Finals series. A Finals series.
And then you deride him for being the third best player on a team with Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Dave? LeBron James would be the third best player on a team with Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
It is disproving though if you say LeBron has a history of choking and I show you it's one year lol. One occurrence in the playoffs isn't a history is it?

I'm not upset, you're just saying I've said things when in fact I've said the opposite. It's not a matter of disagreeing, it's a matter if you misquoting what I've said.

I've never said he was the 3rd best player on the team (see, again putting words in my mouth). He was probably the 2nd best player in the mid-late 80's as Kareem was well on the decline. And I'm not deriding him for being worse than Magic. I'm deriding him for being worse than LeBron. You're exalting someone because he happened to win while being a sidekick on a stacked team. I'm saying that's nothing compared to a 2 time league MVP, 5 time All NBA 1st team, 3 time All NBA 1st Defense, and career averages of 28/7/7.

Worthy made 2 All NBA 3rd teams, never made an all defensive team, never won a regular season MVP (or came close) never led the league in scoring. I don't really know what to say anymore. Until you can give me an argument based on basketball (actual on the court impact, not just awards) there's nothing I can really say to you.

[with malice]

It is disproving though if you say LeBron has a history of choking and I show you it's one year lol. One occurrence in the playoffs isn't a history is it?

Ummm... it's not proven because he most definitely choked against the Celtics Dave.


I'm not upset, you're just saying I've said things when in fact I've said the opposite. It's not a matter of disagreeing, it's a matter if you misquoting what I've said
Ok. Perhaps you're just *reading* as being upset. I didn't 'misquote', I paraphrased. When I quote you, there'll be a big, gray box around the words I directly attribute to you.
Apologies if the paraphrasing was incorrect.



I've never said he was the 3rd best player on the team (see, again putting words in my mouth). He was probably the 2nd best player in the mid-late 80's as Kareem was well on the decline. And I'm not deriding him for being worse than Magic. I'm deriding him for being worse than LeBron.

Ok. Whatever. You're being more than a lil' pedantic here tho'. The reality is if LeBron was on that team, he'd be in exactly the same position. Isn't that the point? Except... it's unlikely LeBron would have that Finals MVP, huh?
You can't merely count the positives of LeBron's game, and merely gloss over the negatives.



Worthy made 2 All NBA 3rd teams, never made an all defensive team, never won a regular season MVP (or came close) never led the league in scoring. I don't really know what to say anymore. Until you can give me an argument based on basketball (actual on the court impact, not just awards) there's nothing I can really say to you.
C'mon man, you use awards in your favour in the sentence immediately prior to this - and state "not just awards"? Sheesh... cake 'n' eat it too, huh?

Look -the last part of your last sentence is the poignant thing here: you've already alluded to the fact that you've never watched Worthy play. Yet here you are. How very interesting (and I BETCHA you're not done talking!).

[kaiiu]

Lol at lebrick bein better than worthy

[Niquesports]

It is disproving though if you say LeBron has a history of choking and I show you it's one year lol. One occurrence in the playoffs isn't a history is it?

I'm not upset, you're just saying I've said things when in fact I've said the opposite. It's not a matter of disagreeing, it's a matter if you misquoting what I've said.

I've never said he was the 3rd best player on the team (see, again putting words in my mouth). He was probably the 2nd best player in the mid-late 80's as Kareem was well on the decline. And I'm not deriding him for being worse than Magic. I'm deriding him for being worse than LeBron. You're exalting someone because he happened to win while being a sidekick on a stacked team. I'm saying that's nothing compared to a 2 time league MVP, 5 time All NBA 1st team, 3 time All NBA 1st Defense, and career averages of 28/7/7.

Worthy made 2 All NBA 3rd teams, never made an all defensive team, never won a regular season MVP (or came close) never led the league in scoring. I don't really know what to say anymore. Until you can give me an argument based on basketball (actual on the court impact, not just awards) there's nothing I can really say to you.

For 7 years Lebron played on a team with players that in 5 years no one will remember. he played in a system that was get Lebron the ball and move out the way.Oh and if all 5 defenders helpout on Bron make the open shot so he can get his assist numbers up.
Lebron has skill that imo is even greater than MJ. Not saying he's better than MJ just with his size his skill we just have never sen that before.
However you look at worthy's numbers and try and judge him. If you watch him play you would know how impossible that would be to judge Worthy on just his numbers.
Worthy played in a system that was 8 to 9 players deep. WIth the best point guard ever. Magic got the ball to everyone.
The lakers system was so Great Byron Scott one year lead the team in scoring. Yes Byrron Scott on a team with 3 top 50 players of All Time.
The hate Lebron gets is his carrying the title the Chosen One.King James,ect.... I just dont respect the man . Great players love the game and love a challenge. Bird participated in the 3 point shooting contest, Jordan,Kobe,Dominique Dr J competed in the Dunk contest. They did it for the fans and for the challenge to show they were the best. Lebron co warded down thinking if he lost it would hurt his legacy. GREAT players don't think about losing.That is why Lebron will always be a Wilt Chamberlin and never a Russell,Magic,Jordan or Bird.He can win 10 titles Most will never think of him as a winner.

Give me BIg Game james Worthy

[Rnbizzle]

This last page of posting just has me shaking my head. The hating on LBJ on ISH is so ****ing retarded..

[D-Wade316]

My top 6:

1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. Elgin Baylor
4. LeBron James
5. John Havlicek
6. Scottie Pippen
Edited

[PP34Deuce]

Some of the greatest players in top 10 are guys who revolutionized their position or the game.....

The only SF who can be clear number 1 is Larry Bird for his unique skill set,and wins.

Lebron James at 26 has..been apart of NBA history on the court. he evolved the Grant Hill/Pippen SF whos 6'8 230 with versatily and made it 6'8 260 faster,stronger,bigger, and able to play 1-4 effectively.

There wont be a player like him again for Years to come....Number 1 pick out of high school who got his team 50-60 win seasons after 2 seasons...takes them past the 2nd round consistently... gets them to the NBA finals in 4-5 years. Makes money and generates revenue for the city of cleveland...
-James Worthy,Rick barry,Pippen,etc didnt do that...

He has accolades,team success,natural talent, and stats to argue he is better than Pippen,Nique,Barry etc..

[Niquesports]

Some of the greatest players in top 10 are guys who revolutionized their position or the game.....

The only SF who can be clear number 1 is Larry Bird for his unique skill set,and wins.

Lebron James at 26 has..been apart of NBA history on the court. he evolved the Grant Hill/Pippen SF whos 6'8 230 with versatily and made it 6'8 260 faster,stronger,bigger, and able to play 1-4 effectively.

There wont be a player like him again for Years to come....Number 1 pick out of high school who got his team 50-60 win seasons after 2 seasons...takes them past the 2nd round consistently... gets them to the NBA finals in 4-5 years. Makes money and generates revenue for the city of cleveland...
-James Worthy,Rick barry,Pippen,etc didnt do that...

He has accolades,team success,natural talent, and stats to argue he is better than Pippen,Nique,Barry etc..


Barry didnt have ESPN and 24 hour sports talk shows.
Pip and Worthy both played with all time greats as rookies
how great would Lebron had been if he came into the league with the Spurs .he would had been a really good off the bench player .Much like Kobe
Of all the great players in the history of the game one player has lead the NCAA,NBA and ABA in scoring. That player is Rick Barry how great would he be if ESPN was around in the 70's

[bizil]

Wilkins is a forgotten man unfortunately. I always replace Leattner with Wilkins on my dream team roster:

MJ
Magic
Bird
Ewing
Barkley
David
Malone
Stockton
Pippen
Drexler
Mullin
WILKINS!

Just never understood why they wasted a spot on Leattner

I agree with u on counts! Nique gets shitted on so much that I'm starting to think there is a conspiracy theory! lol I mean u have other greats like English and Dantley that get underrated too. But the thing with Nique is that he had mass appeal type of capabilites. I feel that the top six guys that made the All Star Game what it came to be is Doc, Bird, Magic, MJ, Isiah, and Nique. Magic and Isiah for the pace of the game, Bird for the three point shootout, and Doc, MJ, and Nique for the slam dunk contest. Out of those six, Nique get the least amount of respect by far. I think he was so entertaining, vicious, and nasty that it overshadowed his great scoring arsenal. Nique wasn't the great all around player that MJ or Drexler was so people used that against him cause those three were the premier freak athletes and aerialist in the L. So haters would say why aren't u like MJ or Clyde? But Nique was Nique and a true superstar and legend.

It's about the impact on a game and being a great player. And he played the same position as Bird and he wasn't a great all around player like Bird. It takes guys like Bird, MJ, and Magic to be greater than a Nique, Dr. J, or Bernard King type. U can be a great player without being a great all around player. A SF like Iggy is more well rounded than Melo. But is he a better player than Melo? Hell NO!

But the thing is, MJ, Bird, and Nique (I put King in the same realm, but wasn't as healthy) were the most feared perimeter scorers in the L around that time. I remember Bird wrote that in his book about himself and the other three. He said u have very good players that can score thirty in a given game. Maybe even forty if they get hot. But guys like himself, MJ, Nique, and King can bump it to 50 or 60 if they had to or wanted to. It's simply another level of dominance that puts them on another level. Cause they could take a game by the throat and will a team in the clutch.

I think Bird's awesome shooting and scoring arsenal made him very unique. MJ and Nique's freakish athletic ability combined with their scoring skills made them very unique. It differentiated them from the other great perimeter scorers in the L. So Nique was a cream of the crop, top ten player in the L type of guy who's criminally underrated. And like Bird, MJ, and Magic, he revolutionized the game. What Dr. J did for the SF spot in the 70's is what Nique did for the SF spot in the 80's.

[bizil]

In terms of peak value, these are the top ten SF's of all time in my book:

Bird
Bron
Doc
Baylor
Grant Hill
Havlicek
Barry
Nique
King
Dantley-English

I think Bird, Bron, and Doc are the top three clearly. After that u can arrange the list all types of ways.

Now for a GOAT list which factors solo accolades, team accolades, numbers, longevity being great, and impact on the L (revolutionizing a position, transcending the sport, etc.) then I would say:

Bird
Doc
Bron (yep it's time already! lol)
Hondo
Barry
Nique
Baylor
Pippen
Pierce
English-Dantley

[oolalaa]

1. Larry Bird -
Best career by a SF.

2. Lebron James -
Most talented SF ever with great accomplishments already.

3. Elgin Baylor -
He was actually a PF but whatever yea he started SF aswell, ok accomplishments.

4. Julius Erving -
How much do u value ABA accomplishments? because thats all he has basically, but he has done enough.

5. Rick Barry -
Great player and good enough accomplishments

6. Dominique Wilkins -
one of the most talented SF's ever, with ok accomplishments.

7. Paul Pierce -
one of the most talented SF's ever, with ok accomplishments.

8. John Havlicek -
the best SF sidekick ever, i dont rank sidekicks high, they dont belong up there with the alpha dogs.

9. Scottie Pippen -
2nd best SF sidekick ever.

10. James Worthy -
3rd best SF sidekick ever.

Nique is too high and :roll: at you thinking havlicek was just a 'sidekick'. He was arguably the celtics best player for their 68 & 69 championships, averaging a 26/9/8 on 45% in the 68' playoffs and 25/10/6 on 45% in the 69' playoffs whilst being their crunch time scorer. In 74' havlicek led the celtics to a championship as their best player by averaging a 27/6/6 and beating kareems bucks in the finals. And they probably would have won the year before but he got injured mid way through the ECF.

Hondo was no sidekick. He is one of the best all round players of all time.

[Niquesports]

In terms of peak value, these are the top ten SF's of all time in my book:

Bird
Bron
Doc
Baylor
Grant Hill
Havlicek
Barry
Nique
King
Dantley-English

I think Bird, Bron, and Doc are the top three clearly. After that u can arrange the list all types of ways.

Now for a GOAT list which factors solo accolades, team accolades, numbers, longevity being great, and impact on the L (revolutionizing a position, transcending the sport, etc.) then I would say:

Bird
Doc
Bron (yep it's time already! lol)
Hondo
Barry
Nique
Baylor
Pippen
Pierce
English-Dantley

Anyone that would rank paul pierce over Bernard King has never watched basketball

[Jasi]

Here's mine

1. Bird

2nd tier
Hondo, Doc

3rd tier
Baylor, LBJ, Pippen, Barry, King

4th tier
Dantley, Worthy

[Niquesports]

Here's mine

1. Bird

2nd tier
Hondo, Doc

3rd tier
Baylor, LBJ, Pippen, Barry, King

4th tier
Dantley, Worthy


I agree but I dont put Bird that far over Doc Hondo and Baylor. BIrd was Great but he also benifited from the uprising of the NBA. He was a major reason but he benifited . Doc best years were in the ABA . Most basketball fans have never seen a ABA game .Hondo best years were in the early 70's maybe the lowest point in NBA history. Baylor best years were early 60's and then the latter part of his career he wasnt the same due to injuries. For body of work any one othese players can make a point for being equal to Bird.

Worthy is so hard to rank. He was a great talent but played in the shawdow of magic and Kareem. HE came into the league as a No1 draft pick the Best players in college ball and after leading his team to a NCAA final. BUt he goes to a team with 2 all time greats. LBJ goes to a team and from day 1 he was given the title as the man. Does that alone make him better than Worthy ? Athletic ability well does that also make him better than Bird ? LBJ lead the CAVs to a finals in a weak division. But really did he do more for the Cavs than Dominique did for the Hawks ?

The WIld card is Barry. Rick may have been the best pure scorer of all time. I remember seeing him when he was on there was no stoping him. Put BIrd on the Bucks and he could have the same numbers but his legacy would drop him to maybe # 8 or 9. Team sucess and playing for the legendary Celtics helped Bird. Anyone that doesnt admit that is just not being honest.

[bizil]

Anyone that would rank paul pierce over Bernard King has never watched basketball

Watched plenty of hoops hater! On a peak value list then Bernard King is over Pierce and a top ten SF in my book. But a GOAT list factors:

Talent
Solo accolades
Team accolades
Longevity being great
Numbers

In this case Pierce ranks over BK in my book. King is a better scorer but Pierce is a better All around player who also has Batman takeover ability. Let's go to solo accolades. Pierce has Finals MVP, is 9 time All Star, and has made four All NBA teams. Team accolades wise Pierce has a ring. Longevity being a great player CLEARLY goes to Pierce. And numbers wise Pierce has over 21,000 points, and averages 22 points, around 4 dimes, and 6 boards a game. BK has similar numbers but wasn't as great for as many years as Pierce. And Pierce is still going strong. If u asked me who I would take in a draft, I would take BK. But on a GOAT list, which includes many factors, Pierce has the edge on King on a GOAT list. So hater know what the hell u are talking about BEFORE u go doubting people's knowledge of the game. We can agree to disagree, but don't take it too far. Cause ya ass just got smoked in this debate. Peak Value is BK all day. On a GOAT list, Pierce has eclipsed BK lately. T Mac peak value wise is a top 4 or 5 SG of all time in my book. But on a GOAT list for SG's, T Mac aint reachin the top 5.

[Niquesports]

Watched plenty of hoops hater! On a peak value list then Bernard King is over Pierce and a top ten SF in my book. But a GOAT list factors:

Talent
Solo accolades
Team accolades
Longevity being great
Numbers

In this case Pierce ranks over BK in my book. King is a better scorer but Pierce is a better All around player who also has Batman takeover ability. Let's go to solo accolades. Pierce has Finals MVP, is 9 time All Star, and has made four All NBA teams. Team accolades wise Pierce has a ring. Longevity being a great player CLEARLY goes to Pierce. And numbers wise Pierce has over 21,000 points, and averages 22 points, around 4 dimes, and 6 boards a game. BK has similar numbers but wasn't as great for as many years as Pierce. And Pierce is still going strong. If u asked me who I would take in a draft, I would take BK. But on a GOAT list, which includes many factors, Pierce has the edge on King on a GOAT list. So hater know what the hell u are talking about BEFORE u go doubting people's knowledge of the game. We can agree to disagree, but don't take it too far. Cause ya ass just got smoked in this debate. Peak Value is BK all day. On a GOAT list, Pierce has eclipsed BK lately. T Mac peak value wise is a top 4 or 5 SG of all time in my book. But on a GOAT list for SG's, T Mac aint reachin the top 5.

You have made some good points. But Pierce just never was a team leader to me. Sure he would have some freak games but the backbone of the teams was always A. Walker or KG. King was always his team backbone. As a body of work and IF I had never seen either play . You might be right id take Pierce. However I have seen both play and Pierce is not on the level of play as King. So I respect your points . ITs just hard to say PP is better than King . He almost beat the Bird Celtics by himself dont think PP could do that.

[D.J.]

But Pierce just never was a team leader to me. Sure he would have some freak games but the backbone of the teams was always A. Walker or KG.


Antoine "Because there are no 4's" Walker. :facepalm A guy that once attempted 8 threes a game. Yeah, he was the real backbone on that team. Because he was the one that put up 30/8+/5/2/1 against the 76ers and prime Iverson in the playoffs and scored 46 in the deciding game 5. He was the one that put up 20/8+/4/1+/1+ against a top defensive team in Detroit. He was the one that put up 28 points and got to the line 15 times in that epic comeback against the Nets. Guess what? All that was Pierce, not Walker.

[bizil]

You have made some good points. But Pierce just never was a team leader to me. Sure he would have some freak games but the backbone of the teams was always A. Walker or KG. King was always his team backbone. As a body of work and IF I had never seen either play . You might be right id take Pierce. However I have seen both play and Pierce is not on the level of play as King. So I respect your points . ITs just hard to say PP is better than King . He almost beat the Bird Celtics by himself dont think PP could do that.

I would take BK over Pierce I agree with u all day long. But for a GOAT list which is like your resume, Pierce in my book has passed King by. However, this is just recently in the last couple of years where I would take Pierce over King on a GOAT list. But I agree with u, in a draft or who was the better player flat out, I go with BK. Guys like BK, Walton, G Hill, Penny, and T Mac had epic talent. All of them had the ability to be a top 5-7 player of all time at their positions. But injuries cost them that opportunity. I love BK's game and always thought he's arguably the most awesome scoring machine EVER at the SF. And that's saying a lot cause u got Bird, Nique, Barry, Baylor, Dr. J, etc. BK's combo of slashing, postup, midrange ability, and explosiveness at the SF is unmatched. U had guys who could do all very well, But King was cream of the crop at all of those facets. I think Melo right now is the closest to King in that regard.

[bizil]

Antoine "Because there are no 4's" Walker. :facepalm A guy that once attempted 8 threes a game. Yeah, he was the real backbone on that team. Because he was the one that put up 30/8+/5/2/1 against the 76ers and prime Iverson in the playoffs and scored 46 in the deciding game 5. He was the one that put up 20/8+/4/1+/1+ against a top defensive team in Detroit. He was the one that put up 28 points and got to the line 15 times in that epic comeback against the Nets. Guess what? All that was Pierce, not Walker.

Great points! Pierce was a true Batman type player in my book. Now was he as dominant a Batman as King, I wouldn't say so. But on the other hand, Pierce is a better all around player who has a more complete scoring aresenal than King. With that said, I would still take King over PP in term of peak or flat out the better player. But GOAT wise, Pierce has passed BK by. I think Pierce gets underrated as a whole by many. I think both he and Ray have accomplished enough in their careers to be top 10 GOAT guys at their respective positions. And the cool thing about it is they helped each other get there.

[ballerz]

I think its great that pierce is on the top ten list. He has been quite underrated his whole career

[Lebron23]

Tier 1

Larry Joe Bird, LeBron James.


Tier 2

Julius Erving, John Havlicek, Rick Barry, Elgin Baylor

Tier 3

Pippen, Worthy, Durant, Pierce.

[cltcfn2924]

Top 5

1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Scottie Pippen

F*ck you With Malice. I am going to personally shove your face into Kobe's butt.
There is no way Pippen is ahead of Hondo, and it isn't even close. He wasn't just a bridge, he carried the 70's Celts to 2 titles and scored over 26,000 pts while being a great defender. Smh, most of you didn't even watch him.

[cltcfn2924]

1. Larry Bird -
Best career by a SF.

2. Lebron James -
Most talented SF ever with great accomplishments already.

3. Elgin Baylor -
He was actually a PF but whatever yea he started SF aswell, ok accomplishments.

4. Julius Erving -
How much do u value ABA accomplishments? because thats all he has basically, but he has done enough.

5. Rick Barry -
Great player and good enough accomplishments

6. Dominique Wilkins -
one of the most talented SF's ever, with ok accomplishments.

7. Paul Pierce -
one of the most talented SF's ever, with ok accomplishments.

8. John Havlicek -
the best SF sidekick ever, i dont rank sidekicks high, they dont belong up there with the alpha dogs.

9. Scottie Pippen -
2nd best SF sidekick ever.

10. James Worthy -
3rd best SF sidekick ever.


Barry over Havlicek? Lmao. Who was he a sidekick to in the seventies? He carried his team to 2 titles.

[KG215]

Barry over Havlicek? Lmao. Who was he a sidekick to in the seventies? He carried his team to 2 titles.
Yeah, that Dave Cowens guy sucked. Jo Jo White? Please, dude was a scrub.

[kshutts1]

As much as I respect what Dr. J brought to the game, through revolutionizing it, I don't believe that "revolutionizing" the game should make him one of the BEST SFs ever. He was, without a doubt, a great player, but he shouldn't be in top 5 consideration. Take out the "revolutionizing" aspect of his resume and it's subpar for a top 10 list.

One of the most important, influential players of all time? Yes.
One of the top 5-8 best SFs? No

[L.Kizzle]

As much as I respect what Dr. J brought to the game, through revolutionizing it, I don't believe that "revolutionizing" the game should make him one of the BEST SFs ever. He was, without a doubt, a great player, but he shouldn't be in top 5 consideration. Take out the "revolutionizing" aspect of his resume and it's subpar for a top 10 list.

One of the most important, influential players of all time? Yes.
One of the top 5-8 best SFs? No
MVPs, Championships, multisle finals appearances ... yet not top 5-8 SF all time? :biggums:

[Whoah10115]

One person I will argue to death against is Adrian Dantley. He has no real argument. He's a player who got his points LITERALLY at the expense of the team. That's a reality. His teams were ass.


James Worthy played within the Lakers, yes. But he didn't deserve his FMVP and he had enough opportunities to step up more, after Kareem started to slip. He was mostly an open-court player. He made two All-NBA Teams, one of which he probably shouldn't have made. He was great in the playoffs, a solid all-around player, able to play good defense and passed the ball well. But why didn't he take the scoring reigns over Magic? If he was Paul Pierce, you best believe Magic would trade points for assists. Worthy is absolutely a hall-of-famer and, regardless of what his talent could do, he didn't do enough to be in the top 10.


Pierce is obviously on this team. He played on some of the most garbage teams of any great player ever. And when the Celtics got great, he played fewer minutes, played in an equal-opportunity team, and played on a team that was far from an offensive team. And now, in his 15th season, he's averaged 20 a game in limited minutes, on a team that's hideous on offense.


It's hard to put this team in order. Bird is #1. I think I might have Lebron at #2. But I have Barry, Erving, Pippen, Havlicek, Wilkins, Pierce, Hill (7 all-star seasons, 6 All-NBA seasons, 3 MVP caliber seasons, 5 more years of quality starter play).


Wasn't Arizin more of a SF? If so, it should most certainly be him before English, Worthy, Sam Jones (if you consider him a 3, tho I think he's considered more of a 2).

[SilkkTheShocker]

James Worthy is one of the most overrated players in NBA history

[La Frescobaldi]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-small-forwards-in-NBA-history#photo-title=Small%20forwards,%20big%20feats&photo=30170275

Reasons for the choices are in the link.

1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. John Havlicek
4. Elgin Baylor
5. LeBron James
6. Scottie Pippen
7. James Worthy
8. Rick Barry
9. Dominique Wilkins
10. Paul Pierce

I never saw the dude, but Bill Russell, Chamberlain, Jerry West and many many other guys that played against him have long said Bob Pettit was the greatest forward of the 50s and early 60s. Along with Elgin Baylor, who I also never saw, to remember it, before his kneecap split.

The Doc was an awesome player, especially before his injuries but I would not rank him so high as this. He is not to compare to LeBron James to me that is not close. The Doc was high flier and just unreal stylish but he had very significant flaws. John Havlicek was a thousand times the defender Erving ever was and had far greater court vision.

Nice to see Rick Barry and Nique on here, a little surprised by Pierce, I probably won't ever be able to get over his wheelchair chump act but he sure has been an all-time great. He looks so slow somehow but it's so deceptive.... the smoothness of a panther

[CeltsGarlic]

White power!
lbj will lead after hes done.

[La Frescobaldi]

White power!
lbj will lead after hes done.

you might just be correct the dude is pretty much incredible to me!

[kshutts1]

MVPs, Championships, multisle finals appearances ... yet not top 5-8 SF all time? :biggums:

I believe that Dr. J belongs in the top 10, and in discussion for the top 5-8, but ultimately he should fall towards the lower end of the top 10, as the only argument he has to separate himself from the other greats is the way that he made basketball mainstream. And I applaud him for that. Just don't confuse greatness with importance.

[blablabla]

bird
james
hondo
baylor
drj
rick barry
pippen
pierce
worthy
nique

[Magic bird]

29 posts in this thread and only one mention of Bernard King.

Shame on you guys.
This,

[Magic bird]

Carmelo>Pierce
:biggums:

[chips93]

bernard kings had all of 3 seasons averaging more than 25ppg

if he had more staying power, more durability, and hadn't gotten injured he'd be in the conversation, but his prime just wasnt long enough

[Xiao Yao You]

One person I will argue to death against is Adrian Dantley. He has no real argument. He's a player who got his points LITERALLY at the expense of the team. That's a reality. His teams were ass.

The Jazz went from 30 wins to 45 and a division crown and the first playoff appearance in their history to start their long string of playoff appearances with A.D. leading the way. Detroit likely wins their titles if he's not traded for Isiah's buddy who played a similar game. He's comparable to Dominique as far as I'm concerned. He didn't have the hype or the flash but he produced similarly.


James Worthy played within the Lakers, yes. But he didn't deserve his FMVP and he had enough opportunities to step up more, after Kareem started to slip. He was mostly an open-court player. He made two All-NBA Teams, one of which he probably shouldn't have made. He was great in the playoffs, a solid all-around player, able to play good defense and passed the ball well. But why didn't he take the scoring reigns over Magic? If he was Paul Pierce, you best believe Magic would trade points for assists. Worthy is absolutely a hall-of-famer and, regardless of what his talent could do, he didn't do enough to be in the top 10.

Highly overrated in my mind. Didn't see him as a whole lot better than Byron Scott on those Lakers teams myself.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird
Lebron (still needs longevity to definitely be #2 though, barring injury)
Baylor
Hondo
Erving
Barry
Pippen
Wilkins
Worthy
Pierce

then dudes like Dantley, King, Aguirre, Mullin, Hill, Hudson, Bobby Jones, T-Mac, Dandrige, along those lines. Durant and Mullin doin their thing right now.

[Whoah10115]

The Jazz went from 30 wins to 45 and a division crown and the first playoff appearance in their history to start their long string of playoff appearances with A.D. leading the way. Detroit likely wins their titles if he's not traded for Isiah's buddy who played a similar game. He's comparable to Dominique as far as I'm concerned. He didn't have the hype or the flash but he produced similarly.



Highly overrated in my mind. Didn't see him as a whole lot better than Byron Scott on those Lakers teams myself.



Dantley had a 3year run, if I remember correctly. He was still effective a lot of the time, but he was negative a lot of the time, for me. Of course, Malone and Stockton stepped up to be great players. But I don't think they lost much when Dantley was gone, even in the year before Malone and Stockton stepped up to superstar level.



And on Worthy...good call. Why is Worthy better than Scott? Worthy is mostly a hall-of-famer because of longevity at that level. Scott didn't even make an all-star team (which is wrong). Scott was the better defender. He had a 21.7PPG season with Worthy in his prime. That's even higher than Worthy's high (albeit by .1).

[KG215]

Obviously Durant has a lot of work to do to crack the top 10, but comparing his prime and what we think his peak will be to the peaks/primes of the top 10 SF's, where does he rank? Behind Bird and LeBron for sure, but what about the rest?

[Legends66NBA7]

Obviously Durant has a lot of work to do to crack the top 10, but comparing his prime and what we think his peak will be to the peaks/primes of the top 10 SF's, where does he rank? Behind Bird and LeBron for sure, but what about the rest?

I still would put him behind the likes of Baylor, Erving, Hondo, Barry, and Pippen.

If were just going by who Fox Sports put in, I can see Durant's career already surpassing Pierce and Worthy this season. The only thing that puts them ahead is a Finals MVP, but Durant is just a better player than both of them. I'm confident enough to say that Durant is probably going to over Pippen as well, as an individual player, but obviously Pippen's team success and all-around play keep him in the discussion.

Baylor, Erving, Hondo, and Barry all have much better individual and team careers for now.

So at best, as an individual player, I can only see these players over Durant:

Bird
James
Baylor
Erving
Hondo
Barry

So, 7th for now, IMO.

And team success and level of play will be determined later as we see if Durant maintains top playoff form.

[Nash]

This thread. Oh the days before Lebron won a championship when you could literally discredit him in any way just by mentioning 0 rings.

[L.Kizzle]

I believe that Dr. J belongs in the top 10, and in discussion for the top 5-8, but ultimately he should fall towards the lower end of the top 10, as the only argument he has to separate himself from the other greats is the way that he made basketball mainstream. And I applaud him for that. Just don't confuse greatness with importance.
How many small forwards have MVPs and titles?
Bird and James, that's it, oh and JULIUS ERVING.

Some have titles and no MVPs (Barry and Hondo), some have just titles (Pippen, Worthy, Arizin), some have neither (Baylor), some have amazing stats (Wilkins, King, AD), some have longevity (Pierce, English.) Erving had all of the above ...

He belongs no lower than 4th.

[Xiao Yao You]

Dantley had a 3year run, if I remember correctly. He was still effective a lot of the time, but he was negative a lot of the time, for me. Of course, Malone and Stockton stepped up to be great players. But I don't think they lost much when Dantley was gone, even in the year before Malone and Stockton stepped up to superstar level.

From 79-86 he was one of the most devasting scorers in basketball. In the high and low post, going to the rim, at the line and off the offensive glass. He also passed effectively out of double teams.

They lost a lot when he left. If Tripuka had played the way they had hoped he would, maybe not, but it wasn't until Thurl Bailey stepped up in the '88 playoffs that you could really say they had replaced A.D effectively and than Jerry took over and they stopped running and that changed too.

[pauk]

Nothing to disagree with there: http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-small-forwards-in-NBA-history#tab=photo-title=LeBron+James+%25282003-present%2529&photo=31275139

[bizil]

If Lebron wins another ring this year, I think think u can start realistically putting him as the GOAT SF. His titles, MVPs, career total points, All NBA teams and career averages will be on par with Bird. I think people forget Brid only played 13 seasons and three of those seasons saw him play 60 games or under. Bron is currently playing in his tenth season. And that also means u can make a case for Bron in the top 6-8 players GOAT as well. Only at 28 or 29 years old. SICK!

[Whoah10115]

If Lebron wins another ring this year, I think think u can start realistically putting him as the GOAT SF. His titles, MVPs, career total points, All NBA teams and career averages will be on par with Bird. I think people forget Brid only played 13 seasons and three of those seasons saw him play 60 games or under. Bron is currently playing in his tenth season. And that also means u can make a case for Bron in the top 6-8 players GOAT as well. Only at 28 or 29 years old. SICK!


Lebron's peak still isn't as good as Larry Bird's.

[Magic bird]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-small-forwards-in-NBA-history#photo-title=Small%20forwards,%20big%20feats&photo=30170275

Reasons for the choices are in the link.

1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. John Havlicek
4. Elgin Baylor
5. LeBron James
6. Scottie Pippen
7. James Worthy
8. Rick Barry
9. Dominique Wilkins
10. Paul Pierce
:bowdown:

[Just2McFly]

Lebron's peak still isn't as good as Larry Bird's.
I'm in shock.

[Money 23]

I'm in shock.
They're neck and neck in terms of their absolute peak play. Bron will absolutely have the better overall resume, career, and longevity. Bird's back gave out on him. Prior to that, he was actually better than his main rival, Magic Johnson.

Bird
LeBron
Baylor
Hondo
Doctor J
Pippen
Barry
Wilkins
Worthy
Pierce
Dantley
Mullin

Kevin Durant: Soon can ascend past Julius Erving if he snatches an MVP and a Ring.

Shame injuries derailed T-Mac and Grant Hill, they'd be UP there on the lists.

[Whoah10115]

They're neck and neck in terms of their absolute peak play. Bron will absolutely have the better overall resume, career, and longevity. Bird's back gave out on him. Prior to that, he was actually better than his main rival, Magic Johnson.

Bird
LeBron
Baylor
Hondo
Doctor J
Pippen
Barry
Wilkins
Worthy
Pierce
Dantley
Mullin

Kevin Durant: Soon can ascend past Julius Erving if he snatches an MVP and a Ring.

Shame injuries derailed T-Mac and Grant Hill, they'd be UP there on the lists.


Hill still has 7 years of all-star play and 6 elite years. That's hall-of-fame quality. I think people just look at the fact that it ended earlier than it should have. Also, he hasn't had playoff success. Not his fault but it's the reality.


McGrady is definitely more of a SG. And the best I ever saw him play was in Houston.

[Pointguard]

Bird
LeBron
Baylor
Hondo
Doctor J
Pippen
Barry
Wilkins
Worthy
TMac
Kevin Durant: Soon can ascend past Julius Erving if he snatches an MVP and a Ring.

Shame injuries derailed T-Mac and Grant Hill, they'd be UP there on the lists.
This. Except I put TMac in the ten spot.

I can't believe the hate Lebron is getting. Outside of Pippen he's the only other guy there that really defends and its not crazy that he could possibly win DPOY one year. Four years as the best player in the game along with being the most versatile player and the best perimeter defender. The only SF here to lead his team to the ring while leading his team in every major category. His peak is comparable to anybody's already - he's at the age when Bird's peak began.

In terms of impact and importance to the game Doc moves up to the two spot. Doc was really important in keeping interest in the game before Bird and Magic and whiile they were getting it together. His playing above the rim was very influential to players and captivating to audiences.

In terms of peak Bernard King was the most unstoppable SF I seen but like Grant Hill and TMac just not enough years of top notch play. Tmac had five years that only Lebron could match (averaged 28ppg, 7rebs, 5.5assist, 1.5 steals and close to a block per game) that's very high for five years of peak play and it happened before he was 26 years old. In terms of peak I would only have Bird, Lebron and Baylor above him. Rick Barry would be right behind Tmac.

[BoNafidde]

1. Tracy Mcgrady