Top 10 Power Forwards In NBA History as of 2011, Fox Sports

[Legends66NBA7]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-power-forwards-in-NBA-history#photo-title=The%20missing%20piece&photo=30033190

Reasons for the choices are in the link.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Charles Barkley
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Elvin Hayes
7. Bob Pettit
8. Kevin McHale
9. Dave DeBusschere
10. Dennis Rodman

[Sarcastic]

In b4 Round Mound

[Legends66NBA7]

In b4 Round Mound

hehe, good call :P.

[D.J.]

In b4 Round Mound


:oldlol: I got:


Duncan
Barkley
Malone
Garnett
Dirk
McHale
Hayes
Petit
DeBusschere
Rodman, though he played the 3 mostly in Detroit

[Round Mound]

The media ofcourse will pick Malone because of longevity a trait that has nothing to do with impactin the game or being efficient and skilled.

Also....the stat padding for years looks nicer than the real analysis of broken down stats.

I have all the evidence that Barkley > Malone and backed up with Statistical Info no Bull-Crap (shiet) of Longevity and Long nice looking raw stats

Barkley > Malone any day of the weak before his injuries

[knickswin]

Dennis Rodman?

[bballnoob1192]

hhahaahha have you seen the top 10 alltime everyones going to cry foul over hakeem not being on the top ten all time

[Legends66NBA7]

Dennis Rodman?

Who would you have over him ?

[knickswin]

Who would you have over him ?

A lot of players. Dennis was unique and great in his own way, but he was too crap a scorer to be really considered an all-timer.

Off the top of my head, I would take Pau, CWebb, and Amar'e over him. There are a bunch of others.

[with malice]

My list (http://with-malice.com/articles/nba/top-10-pfs-all-time.html)...

10. Dennis Rodman
9. Dave DeBusschere
8. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Bob Pettit
6. Kevin McHale
5. Kevin Garnett
4. Elvin Hayes
3. Charles Barkley
2. Karl Malone
1. Tim Duncan

[Legends66NBA7]

hhahaahha have you seen the top 10 alltime everyones going to cry foul over hakeem not being on the top ten all time

Yeah, I just made a thread about it. List is weird.

[greensborohill]

My list (http://with-malice.com/articles/nba/top-10-pfs-all-time.html)...

10. Dennis Rodman
9. Dave DeBusschere
8. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Bob Pettit
6. Kevin McHale
5. Kevin Garnett
4. Elvin Hayes
3. Charles Barkley
2. Karl Malone
1. Tim Duncan

You know Elvin Hayes was a team cancer, and the Bullets actually won their deciding game of the Finals AFTER Hayes fouled out? Also, Garnett won as the 2nd or 3rd offensive option as did McHale.

[JohnnySic]

Get Rodman out of there. :facepalm Put in Chris Webber.

[greensborohill]

Get Rodman out of there. :facepalm Put in Chris Webber.

I used to love Chris Webber. But in retrospect, he is the Lion & Tin Man from the Wizard of Oz all wrapped into one.

[Jasi]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-power-forwards-in-NBA-history#photo-title=The%20missing%20piece&photo=30033190

Reasons for the choices are in the link.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Charles Barkley
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Elvin Hayes
7. Bob Pettit
8. Kevin McHale
9. Dave DeBusschere
10. Dennis Rodman

Barkley too high.
McHale too low.
Rodman shouldn't be in there.
Pau should be in there.
Bob McAdoo should be in there.

[Dragonyeuw]

I can't take Dirk over KG career-wise, sorry. The gap in their defensive ability in favor of KG, is smaller than the gap in their offensive ability, in favor of Dirk. Career accolades are basically a wash, but I gotta go with Garnett in terms of total impact.

[Jasi]

I can't take Dirk over KG career-wise, sorry. The gap in their defensive ability in favor of KG, is smaller than the gap in their offensive ability, in favor of Dirk. Career accolades are basically a wash, but I gotta go with Garnett in terms of total impact.

Agreed.

[greensborohill]

Agreed.

Then you'd both be wrong.


KG is a great 2nd fiddle. . . that's what seperates the two. You can't give KG the ball in the clutch and expect him to do anything more than shoot a fade off the post. . . . Dirk can take it to the hole, and he ain't scerd!!

[Niquesports]

Then you'd both be wrong.


KG is a great 2nd fiddle. . . that's what seperates the two. You can't give KG the ball in the clutch and expect him to do anything more than shoot a fade off the post. . . . Dirk can take it to the hole, and he ain't scerd!!


For all of Dirk's skills Being a big time clutch player isnt one of them.

[greensborohill]

For all of Dirk's skills Being a big time clutch player isnt one of them.

I don't know if I should :oldlol: or :facepalm , but one things for sure . . . . you are either blind, live under a rock or are a stupid MFer

[RRR3]

Then you'd both be wrong.


KG is a great 2nd fiddle. . . that's what seperates the two. You can't give KG the ball in the clutch and expect him to do anything more than shoot a fade off the post. . . . Dirk can take it to the hole, and he ain't scerd!!

I'm tired of this "KG was a 2nd fiddle" nonsense by the ****ing Dirk stans. :facepalm From 1999-2000 to 2006-07, KG's scoring averages were as follows:
22.9
22.0
21.2
23.0
24.2
22.2
21.8
22.4

In the same time period Dirks scoring averages were:
17.5
21.8
23.4
25.1
21.8
26.1
26.6
24.6

Dirk is obviously a better scorer but people are acting like the gap was massive which is bullshit.

[bagelred]

Where Amare be at?

[greensborohill]

I'm tired of this "KG was a 2nd fiddle" nonsense by the ****ing Dirk stans. :facepalm From 1999-2000 to 2006-07, KG's scoring averages were as follows:
22.9
22.0
21.2
23.0
24.2
22.2
21.8
22.4

In the same time period Dirks scoring averages were:
17.5
21.8
23.4
25.1
21.8
26.1
26.6
24.6

Dirk is obviously a better scorer but people are acting like the gap was massive which is bullshit.

KG couldn't even drag those teams to the playoffs. Why are you even trying to argue. Besides, does KG even have a Finals MVP?

[greensborohill]

Where Amare be at?


Top 10 alltime?

He might be top 20 all-time.

[RRR3]

KG couldn't even drag those teams to the playoffs. Why are you even trying to argue. Besides, does KG even have a Finals MVP?
Does Dirk have a DPOY? Hell, does Dirk have even a single all-defense 2nd team?

[Dragonyeuw]

Then you'd both be wrong.


KG is a great 2nd fiddle. . . that's what seperates the two. You can't give KG the ball in the clutch and expect him to do anything more than shoot a fade off the post. . . . Dirk can take it to the hole, and he ain't scerd!!

How the hell can we both be wrong, when we're offering subjective opinions? What makes you believe your opinion to be right?

I value players who are proficient at both ends of the court. I value all-around excellence, and for that reason alone KG ranks higher on my list. You can pick the bones out of stats and achievement all you want, it comes down to what you value more. KG may have been more deferential than Dirk, but he certainly had 1st fiddle talent, if not the mentality. Still as an all-around force, KG is the more complete player and if they retired today, I imagine KG would be higher on many people's all-time list. Hell in the mid 90's, KG was a genuine candidate for best player in the league and that was when you had Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe all in their heyday. Dirk's never seriously been a candidate for best player in the league, and that's including the year he won MVP.

[Dragonyeuw]

KG couldn't even drag those teams to the playoffs. Why are you even trying to argue. Besides, does KG even have a Finals MVP?

Dirk wouldn't have dragged those sorry ass mid-late 90's Twolves anywhere either. Hell, the one season KG had decent talent around him ( Sprewell and Cassell) he went to the WCF and won MVP.

Has Dirk ever won a defensive player of the year award? We can do that all day. No-one would rank Dirk's career higher than KG except for the fact that Dirk won a ring this year. That now makes the comparison and debate valid, but KG in his prime was still a more dominant all-around force.

[greensborohill]

How the hell can we both be wrong, when we're offering an subjective opinion? What makes you believe your opinion to be right?
I value players who are proficient at both ends of the court. I value all-around excellence, and for that reason alone KG ranks higher on my list. You can pick the bones out of stats and achievement all you want, it comes down to what you value more. KG may have been more deferential that Dirk, but he certainly had 1st fiddle talent, if not the mentality. Still as an all-around force, KG is the more complete player and if they retired today, I imagine KG would be higher on many people's all-time list.

Let's just say I like my star player to be able to take over at the end of games. What good is a star if you have yo find someone else to carry you in the 4th? Same reason I think LBJ is WAAAAAAY overated.

[scm5]

I'm sorry.

If given the #2 choice in a pool of all the PF's in NBA history, I'm picking KG.

I realize that Barkley might be a better scorer, damn near unstoppable sometimes, but KG's all around game gives him the edge over anyone other PF not named Duncan.

KG will be a defensive anchor for your team while putting up solid stats all around. I'm talking ALL around.

I mean, we're talking about a guy who put up 23/13/6 on 50% and being like a one-man zone defense at times. The dude is an incredible talent.

If he had an actual team during his time in Minny, I guarantee KG would be #2 on more people's lists.

[RRR3]

Let's just say I like my star player to be able to take over at the end of games. What good is a star if you have yo find someone else to carry you in the 4th? Same reason I think LBJ is WAAAAAAY overated.

You're an idiot if you think LeBron can't "take over in the 4th". One series where he sucked in the fourth quarter doesn't erase him being the best 4th quarter performer for years and destroying the Celtics and Bulls in the fourth quarters in two series prior to the finals. ****ing sheep.

[greensborohill]

I'm sorry.

If given the #2 choice in a pool of all the PF's in NBA history, I'm picking KG.

I realize that Barkley might be a better scorer, damn near unstoppable sometimes, but KG's all around game gives him the edge over anyone other PF not named Duncan.

KG will be a defensive anchor for your team while putting up solid stats all around. I'm talking ALL around.

I mean, we're talking about a guy who put up 23/13/6 on 50% and being like a one-man zone defense at times. The dude is an incredible talent.

If he had an actual team during his time in Minny, I guarantee KG would be #2 on more people's lists.


Have fan with your 1st or 2nd round exit. That guy has no killer instinct. . . (unless he is punching his white teammates or trying to intimidate the other teams PG's).

[Dragonyeuw]

Let's just say I like my star player to be able to take over at the end of games. What good is a star if you have yo find someone else to carry you in the 4th? Same reason I think LBJ is WAAAAAAY overated.

I like my star player to play both ends of the court efficiently.

[RRR3]

Have fan with your 1st or 2nd round exit. That guy has no killer instinct. . . (unless he is punching his white teammates or trying to intimidate the other teams PG's).
Stop talking so big just because your boy finally won a ring. You didn't have SHIT to say about KG before this past year. Get a grip.

[greensborohill]

Stop talking so big just because your boy finally won a ring. You didn't have SHIT to say about KG before this past year. Get a grip.


Leave me alone. . . I'm eating Fun Dip, Razz Apple Flavor.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4137/4960023398_9afec5f9f6_z.jpg

No hard feelings. . . peace out!

[cuad]

While we're on the subject, does anybody know of any Bob Pettit games on youtube or something? This lockout combined with the FIBA tournaments and the Kings drafting Jimmer has got me interested in basketball pioneers and great players who aren't black or from the USA.

[Niquesports]

Have fan with your 1st or 2nd round exit. That guy has no killer instinct. . . (unless he is punching his white teammates or trying to intimidate the other teams PG's).

KG like Webber could have been really GREAT but they wanted the flash . IF both had played like a Moses or Hakeem which both could have they both would be 1 n 2 all time. If either had a PG like Stockton or Magic they both would be in the talk of top 10 Goat. But both shyed away from being the man in crunch time I'd take Rodman over both in a draft .

[RRR3]

KG like Webber could have been really GREAT but they wanted the flash . IF both had played like a Moses or Hakeem which both could have they both would be 1 n 2 all time. If either had a PG like Stockton or Magic they both would be in the talk of top 10 Goat. But both shyed away from being the man in crunch time I'd take Rodman over both in a draft .

First of all, KG wasn't great? Are you shitting me? Secondly, Rodman over KG? Oh lawd. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Niquesports]

While we're on the subject, does anybody know of any Bob Pettit games on youtube or something? This lockout combined with the FIBA tournaments and the Kings drafting Jimmer has got me interested in basketball pioneers and great players who aren't black.
never saw him play. But reading about him he couls score. As the game got more athletic many of his peers droped off but Bob stayed elite which shows hoiw great he really was.

[Niquesports]

First of all, KG wasn't great? Are you shitting me? Secondly, Rodman over KG? Oh lawd. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Basketball is about playing your role. Rodman was a key role on 2 different championship teams. KG was a factor on only one. For one game yes Id take Rodman over KG 9 out of 10 times

[greensborohill]

Look, as long as you guys have Dirk top 5, I really couldn't care less. Dirk has two to four more really good years left in him. And I fully expect D-Will or D12 to be coming to Dallas either this coming year or next. . . so we will see how it goes. Until then. . . . .

FUN DIP!!!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4137/4960023398_9afec5f9f6_z.jpg

[rodman91]

I liked the fact they ranked Dirk over Garnett.

[Miller for 3]

Basketball is about playing your role. Rodman was a key role on 2 different championship teams. KG was a factor on only one. For one game yes Id take Rodman over KG 9 out of 10 times

WTF is this crap? KG was the best player on a championship team, Rodman was at his best the 3rd best player on a couple. KG is one of the most versatile and team oriented players I have ever seen. He could play any number of roles to contribute to a winning team. You are praising Rodman for getting to play with MJ, Pippen, Robinson, Shaq, Thomas and Dumars, yet knocking KG for not winning with Spreewell and Wally's World. Just insane logic tbh

[Niquesports]

WTF is this crap? KG was the best player on a championship team, Rodman was at his best the 3rd best player on a couple. KG is one of the most versatile and team oriented players I have ever seen. He could play any number of roles to contribute to a winning team. You are praising Rodman for getting to play with MJ, Pippen, Robinson, Shaq, Thomas and Dumars, yet knocking KG for not winning with Spreewell and Wally's World. Just insane logic tbh


How many times did KG get past the first round without Spree PP Ray Allen ect.. He is not a A list player even with the Celtics could they have won without PP ? Rodman may not be the offence that KG can give but the intensity and rebounding a D he is equal .

[Legends66NBA7]

How many times did KG get past the first round without Spree PP Ray Allen ect.. He is not a A list player even with the Celtics could they have won without PP ? Rodman may not be the offence that KG can give but the intensity and rebounding a D he is equal .

Rodman was better than Garnett in both, not equal.

[Miller for 3]

How many times did KG get past the first round without Spree PP Ray Allen ect.. He is not a A list player even with the Celtics could they have won without PP ? Rodman may not be the offence that KG can give but the intensity and rebounding a D he is equal .

How many times did Rodman accomplish anything without the GOAT, Shaq, Robinson, Isiah or Dumars?

[Legends66NBA7]

How many times did Rodman accomplish anything without the GOAT, Shaq, Robinson, Isiah or Dumars?

How many times did Garnett accomplish anything without Sam Cassell, Latrell Sprewell, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Rajon Rondo ? Not to mention other talented/all-star talent like Joe Smith, Chauncey Billups, and Wally Szczerbiak ?

[rodman91]

How many times did Rodman accomplish anything without the GOAT, Shaq, Robinson, Isiah or Dumars?

How man times Jordan accomplish without Pippen & Jackson?
How many times Kobe accomplish without great big man & Jackson?
How many times Robinson accomplish without Duncan?
How many times Shaq accomplish without a great guard?
How many times Garnett accomplish without 2 great player?

:no:

Garnett deserves better rank because of his offense but don't diss Rodman like some role player.He was a star player since late detroit years.

Also much better rebounder,defender and intense Garnett ever was.

[Niquesports]

How man times Jordan accomplish without Pippen & Jackson?
How many times Kobe accomplish without great big man & Jackson?
How many times Robinson accomplish without Duncan?
How many times Shaq accomplish without a great guard?
How many times Garnett accomplish without 2 great player?

:no:

Garnett deserves better rank because of his offense but don't diss Rodman like some role player.He was a star player since late detroit years.

Also much better rebounder,defender and intense Garnett ever was.


The problem with KG is that he is a GREAT role player that his team needs to be a GREAT STAR player.
Where as Rodman is a Great Role player and thats what his team needed.
That being said KG failed as being a star player so it hurts him . Rodman shined as a role player and that helped him. Overall player KG > Rodman career Rodman>KG

[Legends66NBA7]

How man times Jordan accomplish without Pippen & Jackson?
How many times Kobe accomplish without great big man & Jackson?
How many times Robinson accomplish without Duncan?
How many times Shaq accomplish without a great guard?
How many times Garnett accomplish without 2 great player?

:no:

Garnett deserves better rank because of his offense but don't diss Rodman like some role player.He was a star player since late detroit years.

Also much better rebounder,defender and intense Garnett ever was.

Exactly. Rodman is damn underrated by many.

[bagelred]

Where Charles Oakley be at?

[Math2]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-power-forwards-in-NBA-history#photo-title=The%20missing%20piece&photo=30033190

Reasons for the choices are in the link.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Charles Barkley
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Elvin Hayes
7. Bob Pettit
8. Kevin McHale
9. Dave DeBusschere
10. Dennis Rodman

Wow...Pettit should be second w/out question...

[Legends66NBA7]

Where Charles Oakley be at?

Smoking trees, but not in the Top 10 :P.

[Niquesports]

Where Charles Oakley be at?
He's in the top 100 right behind Lenord Truck Robinson and Dan Roundfield and Jeff Ruland and Paul Silas and Kurt Rambis and Don NElson and Larry Nance

[JordanTime]

Reasons for the choices are in the link.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Charles Barkley
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Elvin Hayes
7. Bob Pettit
8. Kevin McHale
9. Dave DeBusschere
10. Dennis Rodman


hmm. No Jerry Lucas? Or is he consider a Center. Cause i do recall him playing the PF back in the 70's.

Dave DeBusschere shouldn't even be on this list.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan is clear cut number 1 for me.

After that...Barkley/Malone/Dirk/Pettit/KG could go in any order.

Hayes is over-rated. Pau Gasol is under-rated.

[Odinn]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Karl Malone
4. Bob Pettit
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Kevin McHale
8. Elvin Hayes
9. Pau Gasol
10. Dennis Rodman

HMs; Dave DeBusschere, Amar'e Stoudemire, Chris Webber

[with malice]

You know Elvin Hayes was a team cancer, and the Bullets actually won their deciding game of the Finals AFTER Hayes fouled out? Also, Garnett won as the 2nd or 3rd offensive option as did McHale.
Yeah, I get that Hayes wasn't a popular team-mate. But then, similar things have been said about KG as well.


Then you'd both be wrong.


KG is a great 2nd fiddle. . . that's what seperates the two. You can't give KG the ball in the clutch and expect him to do anything more than shoot a fade off the post. . . . Dirk can take it to the hole, and he ain't scerd!!
C'mon man...
Prior to last season's playoffs, there's no way on earth you'd even come close to putting that opinion forward. So... based on a solitary post-season, you've come to that conclusion.


Basketball is about playing your role. Rodman was a key role on 2 different championship teams. KG was a factor on only one. For one game yes Id take Rodman over KG 9 out of 10 times
Ridiculous assertion.
Basketball is not simply about "playing your role". You're only saying that because it forwards your own agenda. Hell, does this mean you'd rank Horry as a top ten SF? Because the guy could really play his role...

[ZaaaaaH]

The media ofcourse will pick Malone because of longevity a trait that has nothing to do with impactin the game or being efficient and skilled.

Also....the stat padding for years looks nicer than the real analysis of broken down stats.

I have all the evidence that Barkley > Malone and backed up with Statistical Info no Bull-Crap (shiet) of Longevity and Long nice looking raw stats

Barkley > Malone any day of the weak before his injuries


I can understand YOU think Barkley was better but do you think he was best PF over Duncan?

[ZaaaaaH]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Karl Malone
4. Bob Pettit
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Kevin McHale
8. Elvin Hayes
9. Pau Gasol
10. Dennis Rodman

HMs; Dave DeBusschere, Amar'e Stoudemire, Chris Webber



LOL GASOL HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH AHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA





























AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH











































HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAAH































GASOL ! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol

[Human Error]

The media ofcourse will pick Malone because of longevity a trait that has nothing to do with impactin the game or being efficient and skilled.

Also....the stat padding for years looks nicer than the real analysis of broken down stats.

I have all the evidence that Barkley > Malone and backed up with Statistical Info no Bull-Crap (shiet) of Longevity and Long nice looking raw stats

Barkley > Malone any day of the weak before his injuries
Peak Malone > Peak Barkley
Malone's overall career > Barkley's overall career

And I'd put Dirk ahead of Barkley as well.

[Round Mound]

Peak Malone > Peak Barkley
Malone's overall career > Barkley's overall career

And I'd put Dirk ahead of Barkley as well.

Barkley Higher PER than Malone Season
Barkley Higher PER than Malone PLAY-OFFS (Malone shot 46% while Barkley shot 51%)
Two-Point FG% Season: Malone shot 52% while Barkley shot 58%
Two-Point FG% Play-offs Malone shot 47% while Barkley shot 55%
Barkley Higher EFF
Barkley Higher Plus/Minus
Barkley Higher WS Per 48 Minutes
Barkley Higher Shot Made/Missed Diferential.
Barkley Better Pure Scorer with High FG%
Barkley Better Rebounder
Barkley Better Passer
Barkley Better Creator 1 on 1: Of the Dribble, Face Up, Ball Handling Skills
Barkley Better Post Player
Barkley Better Shooter
BarkleY Better Shot Blocker
Barkley Better Floor Defender
Barkley Better Stealer
Barkley Better Coast to Coast Scorer
Barkley Enforced Rule Change: 5 Second Back to the Basket Rule
Barkley Was Called the Zone Buster
Barkley Created More Ilegal Defenses tha Any Player of His Era
Barkley had Most 30 point 20 Rb than any other PF
Barkley Owned Malone for 70% of their Meetings whem he was Healthy
Barkley Clutcher than Malone

Malone Better Man to Man Defender (not alot, but better)
Malone Better FT% Shooter

BARKLEY >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Malone

[jlauber]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-power-forwards-in-NBA-history#photo-title=The%20missing%20piece&photo=30033190

Reasons for the choices are in the link.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Charles Barkley
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Elvin Hayes
7. Bob Pettit
8. Kevin McHale
9. Dave DeBusschere
10. Dennis Rodman

Jerry Lucas should be #9. He had TWO 20-20 seasons, and very nearly a couple more. He was also an exceptionally efficient shooter...which was even more remarkable considering that he took many of his shots from 20+ feet. In fact, from what I personally witnessed, he may very well have been the best long-range shooter of his era.

[Niquesports]

Yeah, I get that Hayes wasn't a popular team-mate. But then, similar things have been said about KG as well.
As a life long Bullet fan hayes wasn't a fan favorite personality wise. But every time he touched the ball at 10,00 people yelled out EEEEEEE.
From 1970 to 1978 players came and gone only 2 stayed Elvin and Wes.He may not had been a fan favorite buthis game the fans loved.

C'mon man...
Prior to last season's playoffs, there's no way on earth you'd even come close to putting that opinion forward. So... based on a solitary post-season, you've come to that conclusion.


Ridiculous assertion.
Basketball is not simply about "playing your role". You're only saying that because it forwards your own agenda. Hell, does this mean you'd rank Horry as a top ten SF? Because the guy could really play his role...


How silly you your saying if a player is a great 12th man he should be a Top 10 All Time. Now thats Silly. Rodman gave a team hustle rebounding defense intensity and played with 2of the most driven players of all time isiah and Jordan. Neither had a problem playing with him.He's like Moses what he did Great cant be taught

[Brunch@Five]

I hate the Jordan-excuse for Malone and Barkley not winning championships. Barkley lost against him once, Malone twice, and that was after more than a dozen years in the league.
If Malone had top-10 all-time talent, he wouldn't have fumbled away the Jazz chances at winning in the 4th quarter against the Bulls.

[D.J.]

If Malone had top-10 all-time talent, he wouldn't have fumbled away the Jazz chances at winning in the 4th quarter against the Bulls.


Don't forget game 6 against Seattle in '96.

[the_wise_one]

In b4 Round Mound

LOL

Duncan at #1 is correct

Dirk should be #2

Barkley should be above Malone for the fact that he never joined the Fakers.

[with malice]

LOL

Duncan at #1 is correct

Dirk should be #2

Barkley should be above Malone for the fact that he never joined the Fakers.
Say WHAT? Based on the results of a solitary post-season???
Colour me aghast at that proposal. Heh... who'd you steal your pseudonym off?

[DMAVS41]

Say WHAT? Based on the results of a solitary post-season???
Colour me aghast at that proposal. Heh... who'd you steal your pseudonym off?

While I don't have Dirk as high as number 2, somebody putting him there would not be just because of 1 season.

Dirk's career is full of some of the most impressive numbers and accomplishments of all time.

One of four players to average over 25 and 10 in playoff history
11 straight seasons over 50 wins
MVP, Finals MVP, Title
Led a team to 67 wins (by far the worst roster to ever win 67 games)
Won a title without an all-nba teammate
One of the most durable players ever....

And more and more. This title just solidified him as one of the truly great players of all time with those that heavily weight titles.

[with malice]

While I don't have Dirk as high as number 2, somebody putting him there would not be just because of 1 season.

Dirk's career is full of some of the most impressive numbers and accomplishments of all time.

One of four players to average over 25 and 10 in playoff history
11 straight seasons over 50 wins
MVP, Finals MVP, Title
Led a team to 67 wins (by far the worst roster to ever win 67 games)
Won a title without an all-nba teammate
One of the most durable players ever....

And more and more. This title just solidified him as one of the truly great players of all time with those that heavily weight titles.
Yet not a single, solitary person would have him in the top 5 prior to last season. Hell, if someone left him out of the top ten before last season's playoffs, people would barely blink.

[DMAVS41]

Yet not a single, solitary person would have him in the top 5 prior to last season. Hell, if someone left him out of the top ten before last season's playoffs, people would barely blink.

Well, that doesn't make them right. Dirk was easily a top 10 power forward coming into the year.

I don't really know what to tell you. Why is it absurd to have Dirk in the top 5 or higher. Tell me why...don't just use popular opinion as your reason.

Why did you have Mchale higher than Dirk? Stuff like that. Doesn't make much sense to me. Just seems everyone was wrong....right?

[Niquesports]

Well, that doesn't make them right. Dirk was easily a top 10 power forward coming into the year.

I don't really know what to tell you. Why is it absurd to have Dirk in the top 5 or higher. Tell me why...don't just use popular opinion as your reason.

Why did you have Mchale higher than Dirk? Stuff like that. Doesn't make much sense to me. Just seems everyone was wrong....right?


There is no question that Dirk is a special player. Maybe the most gifted big man outside of 12 feet the game has ever seen.
I think the question of his toughness comes from his Euro background style of play. A big man shooting 3's.
Over the years Dirk has developed into a very special player. Not sure if he is much better than a Tom Chambers or Kiki Vanderwege.But at the same time he has been able to lead his team farther than both.
The problem with Dirk why he will never get just do or will always be overrated is the fact that he plays Power Forward. Sorry there is nothing Power about Dirk or his game.This will always hurt his legacy.

[Miller for 3]

Over the years Dirk has developed into a very special player. Not sure if he is much better than a Tom Chambers or Kiki Vanderwege..

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Meticode]

People underrated Rodman too much.

[Derka]

I'm closer to to this...

Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
McHale
Malone
Nowitzki
Pettit
Hayes
Rodman
DeBusschere

[jlauber]

I'm closer to to this...

Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
McHale
Malone
Nowitzki
Pettit
Hayes
Rodman
DeBusschere

I can't see DeBusschere over Jerry Lucas.

[DMAVS41]

There is no question that Dirk is a special player. Maybe the most gifted big man outside of 12 feet the game has ever seen.
I think the question of his toughness comes from his Euro background style of play. A big man shooting 3's.
Over the years Dirk has developed into a very special player. Not sure if he is much better than a Tom Chambers or Kiki Vanderwege.But at the same time he has been able to lead his team farther than both.
The problem with Dirk why he will never get just do or will always be overrated is the fact that he plays Power Forward. Sorry there is nothing Power about Dirk or his game.This will always hurt his legacy.

Wow...just wow. So playing style is more important than impact? LOL

Chambers...really? I just don't have words.

Dirk is without a doubt one of the 25 best players of all time based on any standard or measure.

Good luck having Chambers average 26/10/3 for his career in the playoffs or lead a constantly changing team to 50 wins every single legit year of his career.

It still boggles my mind how under-rated Dirk is by some. He has a legit argument as the 2nd best pf of all time.

[RRR3]

Wow...just wow. So playing style is more important than impact? LOL

Chambers...really? I just don't have words.

Dirk is without a doubt one of the 25 best players of all time based on any standard or measure.

Good luck having Chambers average 26/10/3 for his career in the playoffs or lead a constantly changing team to 50 wins every single legit year of his career.

It still boggles my mind how under-rated Dirk is by some. He has a legit argument as the 2nd best pf of all time.
Nonsense.

[DMAVS41]

Nonsense.

Not really. I don't have him there, but there is really nothing definitive to say Malone, Barkley, KG, or Pettit deserve to be ranked higher than Dirk.

I think the next 3 to 4 years will determine where Dirk will ultimately end up, but you are kidding yourself if you think anyone but Duncan absolutely deserves to be ranked over Dirk at power forward. Nonsense.

[RRR3]

Not really. I don't have him there, but there is really nothing definitive to say Malone, Barkley, KG, or Pettit deserve to be ranked higher than Dirk.

I think the next 3 to 4 years will determine where Dirk will ultimately end up, but you are kidding yourself if you think anyone but Duncan absolutely deserves to be ranked over Dirk at power forward. Nonsense.

Prime Barkley annihilates prime Dirk. And Malone's sheer body of work will make him hard to surpass. KG I personally have over Dirk, but that is more debatable I suppose.

[DMAVS41]

Prime Barkley annihilates prime Dirk. And Malone's sheer body of work will make him hard to surpass. KG I personally have over Dirk, but that is more debatable I suppose.

Depends on your criteria....I don't think Malone could ever do some of the things Dirk has done in the playoffs.

I have no issue with someone ranking all of them over Dirk...its just debatable.

[Brunch@Five]

Dirk was easily among the top 10 PF even before last year. 2 years ago he was rated #47 IIRC on the ISH all-time list, and some people said he was too low.

I've got no problem with people ranking KG, Barkley, Malone or Pettit over Dirk, but one guy that has absolutely no case over him and thus should never be ranked over him is McHale.

[BarberSchool]

Primes:

1. Charles Barkley
2. Tim Duncan
3. Karl Malone
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Kevin McHale
7. Elvin Hayes
8. Dave DeBusschere
9. Bob Pettit
10. Dennis Rodman


Careers:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Charles Barkley
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Kevin McHale
7. Dave DeBusschere
8. Elvin Hayes
9. Dennis Rodman
10. Bob Pettit

[JordanTime]

Primes:

1. Charles Barkley
2. Tim Duncan
3. Karl Malone
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Kevin McHale
7. Elvin Hayes
8. Dave DeBusschere
9. Bob Pettit
10. Dennis Rodman


Careers:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Charles Barkley
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Kevin McHale
7. Dave DeBusschere
8. Elvin Hayes
9. Dennis Rodman
10. Bob Pettit


Primes:
1.Tim Duncan
2.Kevin Garnett
3.Charles Barkley
4.Karl Malone
5.Bob Petit
6.Dirk Nowitzki
7.Kevin Mchale
8.Elvin Hayes

Careers:
1.Tim Duncan
2.Karl Malone
3.Dirk Nowitzki
4.Kevin Garnett
5.Charles Barkley
6.Bob Petit
7.Kevin Mchale
8.Dennis Rodman

[Niquesports]

Primes:
1.Tim Duncan
2.Kevin Garnett
3.Charles Barkley
4.Karl Malone
5.Bob Petit
6.Dirk Nowitzki
7.Kevin Mchale
8.Elvin Hayes

Careers:
1.Tim Duncan
2.Karl Malone
3.Dirk Nowitzki
4.Kevin Garnett
5.Charles Barkley
6.Bob Petit
7.Kevin Mchale
8.Dennis Rodman


It find it really funny when people try and seem like they know the game. YEt take little time to look at the history. In what way possible has Kevin Mchale been a more impact player or had a bigger body of work over Elvin Hayes ? Dirk over Barkley is crazy. I think you need to open up a book Kevin Mchale had at most 3 years of All Time Great playing level. Hayes had about 10-13 years.

[Niquesports]

Wow...just wow. So playing style is more important than impact? LOL

Chambers...really? I just don't have words.

Dirk is without a doubt one of the 25 best players of all time based on any standard or measure.

Good luck having Chambers average 26/10/3 for his career in the playoffs or lead a constantly changing team to 50 wins every single legit year of his career.

It still boggles my mind how under-rated Dirk is by some. He has a legit argument as the 2nd best pf of all time.


The problem with Dirk is that nothing about his game makes you think Power Forward. Even though he was a good rebounder. No one has ever thought of him as a dominant presense in the paint. Now that doesnt make him any less of a player. But does anyone really think if he was a bigger factor and more intimidating in the paint the Mavs would have not at least won 1 or 2 more titles.?

[greensborohill]

The problem with Dirk is that nothing about his game makes you think Power Forward. Even though he was a good rebounder. No one has ever thought of him as a dominant presense in the paint. Now that doesnt make him any less of a player. But does anyone really think if he was a bigger factor and more intimidating in the paint the Mavs would have not at least won 1 or 2 more titles.?


Shut up already dude. This coming from a guy with a Wilkins user name. That guy was all flash and no substance. Dirk's game is all about winning and being a clutch performer. And he ain't done yet (unlike KG, Duncan, Barkley, and Malone). He's still rising up those rankings.

But back on topic, just do us all a favor and shut up.

[Jasi]

I'll give you mine.

1. Duncan

2nd tier
Malone, KG, Dirk, Hayes

3rd tier
McHale, Barkley, Pau, McAdoo


Pettit should be thrown in there between the 2nd and 3rd tier, but honestly I won't pretend that I know his game perfectly because I don't.

[greensborohill]

Tim Duncan is a center

[Jasi]

Tim Duncan is a center, and the best PF ever.

Fixed :D

[Lebron23]

Bob Pettit is underrated in this forum. He's the 2nd greatest PF of all time in my book.

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/Bob_Pettit.jpg

[greensborohill]

Fixed :D

You need to be fixed so you can never reproduce. . . EVER

[Jasi]

You need to be fixed so you can never reproduce. . . EVER

Wow, is considering TD the best PF such a fault?
:confusedshrug:

Anyways, I've already reproduced so, sorry: more people will think that Timmy is a great PF (while also being a great C) in the future.

[rodman91]

Tim Duncan is considered as PF.. PF/C hybrid at best but still PF.

[greensborohill]

Wow, is considering TD the best PF such a fault?
:confusedshrug:

Anyways, I've already reproduced so, sorry: more people will think that Timmy is a great PF (while also being a great C) in the future.

Congrats. No hard feelings. I have a daughter myself.

[DMAVS41]

The problem with Dirk is that nothing about his game makes you think Power Forward. Even though he was a good rebounder. No one has ever thought of him as a dominant presense in the paint. Now that doesnt make him any less of a player. But does anyone really think if he was a bigger factor and more intimidating in the paint the Mavs would have not at least won 1 or 2 more titles.?

Well, Dirk would certainly be a better player if he was a better rebounder and a great defender. Of course.

But if he was those things he'd be a top 5 player ever probably. He'd be Duncan and Hakeem. He's not.

If that is the standard you are holding him to...then I understand your view.

I think Duncan and Hakeem would have won 2 or 3 titles in Dirk's place his entire career.

But those aren't really the guys Dirk is compared to. Its Malone, Barkley, Kg, and Pettit....

I simply don't think Malone or Barkley win a title. KG, if he stays healthy, probably wins in 03 or 07...but the idea of KG leading a team to a title without a Paul Pierce type closer is hard to imagine. And in both of those years KG would have had to go through Duncan....who was just better.

The Mavs have had 4 teams capable of winning the title. 03, 06, 07, and 11.

03 they made the WCF and Dirk got hurt.

06 they had a chance and Dirk deserves some blame for not playing great in the finals. However, the only reason they were there in the first place was because the Mavs upset the Spurs in the 2nd round mainly because Dirk was legendary in that series.

07 they had a great chance but blew it in the first round. Dirk deserves a lot of blame for that.

11 they won.

4 chances. 1 gone due to injury. Another only because of a huge upset in the 2nd round against the big title favorites. 1 slipped away and its on Dirk. The last one...out of nowhere. I just don't see any of the players Dirk is compared to at PF leading the 11 Mavs to a title other than Duncan. Barkley, KG, and Malone were simply not the kind of players that could have done that in my opinion.

[Niquesports]

Well, Dirk would certainly be a better player if he was a better rebounder and a great defender. Of course.

But if he was those things he'd be a top 5 player ever probably. He'd be Duncan and Hakeem. He's not.

If that is the standard you are holding him to...then I understand your view.

I think Duncan and Hakeem would have won 2 or 3 titles in Dirk's place his entire career.

But those aren't really the guys Dirk is compared to. Its Malone, Barkley, Kg, and Pettit....

I simply don't think Malone or Barkley win a title. KG, if he stays healthy, probably wins in 03 or 07...but the idea of KG leading a team to a title without a Paul Pierce type closer is hard to imagine. And in both of those years KG would have had to go through Duncan....who was just better.

The Mavs have had 4 teams capable of winning the title. 03, 06, 07, and 11.

03 they made the WCF and Dirk got hurt.

06 they had a chance and Dirk deserves some blame for not playing great in the finals. However, the only reason they were there in the first place was because the Mavs upset the Spurs in the 2nd round mainly because Dirk was legendary in that series.

07 they had a great chance but blew it in the first round. Dirk deserves a lot of blame for that.

11 they won.

4 chances. 1 gone due to injury. Another only because of a huge upset in the 2nd round against the big title favorites. 1 slipped away and its on Dirk. The last one...out of nowhere. I just don't see any of the players Dirk is compared to at PF leading the 11 Mavs to a title other than Duncan. Barkley, KG, and Malone were simply not the kind of players that could have done that in my opinion.


I really don't blame Dirk I blame Cuban and Nelson. They built the team around Dirk as their big man. How ever Dirk isnt a true Big man. For that reason I think Malone might have been better suited for the Mavs. Bring in Chandler really help Dirk. Took a lot off of him. I would say Barkley and Pettie were better PF than Dirk.

Duncan Barkely,Malone KG and to a degree even Rodman were just better Power Forwards than Dirk.IF Dirk developed a true Post game back to the basket and being able to pass out of double teams would make him a true top 3 PF ever.

[Balla_Status]

Great call ranking Dirk over KG. People be mad that a white boy be better than a black man.

[DMAVS41]

I really don't blame Dirk I blame Cuban and Nelson. They built the team around Dirk as their big man. How ever Dirk isnt a true Big man. For that reason I think Malone might have been better suited for the Mavs. Bring in Chandler really help Dirk. Took a lot off of him. I would say Barkley and Pettie were better PF than Dirk.

Duncan Barkely,Malone KG and to a degree even Rodman were just better Power Forwards than Dirk.IF Dirk developed a true Post game back to the basket and being able to pass out of double teams would make him a true top 3 PF ever.

You are getting way too caught up in position vs overall impact. Rodman simply wasn't even close to Dirk as a player.

I have no issue with anyone ranking malone, barkley, pettit, and KG over Dirk...and obviously Duncan. I didn't see Pettit play so I really can't comment too much on him.

I have Dirk as the third best PF behind Duncan and KG. But that is just my opinion. My issue with people is when they claim its not close between the other guys. It absolutely is. Not only has Dirk just been an amazing player for 11 years now...but he's accomplished things in his career really only a handful of players ever have. He's got the regular success/stats...and the playoffs success/stats. He's got the awards...and now a title. He's done everything.

And he's done all of that with a durability that is really rarely ever seen. He's missed 40 games his entire career in the regular season. He's never played less than 73 games in a full season.

And he happens to be one of the most clutch and best late game players of this era and all time. An attribute that is about as important as anything in basketball.

Whatever position you want to call him, he's absolutely one of the very few best forwards to ever play.

[Round Mound]

Barkley`s Prime and Heatlthy > Any Other PF, specially 1 on 1

[Niquesports]

Barkley`s Prime and Heatlthy > Any Other PF, specially 1 on 1


ALl that and he still was never able to LEAD a team to a Championship.He had all the skill and talent but 0 leadership . No wonder Pippen didn't like him. Pippen was use to playing with a leader.

[Niquesports]

You are getting way too caught up in position vs overall impact. Rodman simply wasn't even close to Dirk as a player.

I have no issue with anyone ranking malone, barkley, pettit, and KG over Dirk...and obviously Duncan. I didn't see Pettit play so I really can't comment too much on him.

I have Dirk as the third best PF behind Duncan and KG. But that is just my opinion. My issue with people is when they claim its not close between the other guys. It absolutely is. Not only has Dirk just been an amazing player for 11 years now...but he's accomplished things in his career really only a handful of players ever have. He's got the regular success/stats...and the playoffs success/stats. He's got the awards...and now a title. He's done everything.

And he's done all of that with a durability that is really rarely ever seen. He's missed 40 games his entire career in the regular season. He's never played less than 73 games in a full season.

And he happens to be one of the most clutch and best late game players of this era and all time. An attribute that is about as important as anything in basketball.

Whatever position you want to call him, he's absolutely one of the very few best forwards to ever play.


Last year was the best I have ever seen Dirk. He was going to the basket. If that how he plays there is no way a team can put a SF on him. I think whats makes Duncan and KG better than Dirk is the inside play. I compared him to Tom Chambers. Many forget how good Chambers was. It wasnt an insult. It was just comparing 2 pPF that were better outside of 12 feet than in the post.

[Brunch@Five]

Last year was the best I have ever seen Dirk. He was going to the basket. If that how he plays there is no way a team can put a SF on him.

you're acting like he didn't go to the basket in 2006. That's when Bill Simmons compared him to Larry Bird.

[DMAVS41]

Last year was the best I have ever seen Dirk. He was going to the basket. If that how he plays there is no way a team can put a SF on him. I think whats makes Duncan and KG better than Dirk is the inside play. I compared him to Tom Chambers. Many forget how good Chambers was. It wasnt an insult. It was just comparing 2 pPF that were better outside of 12 feet than in the post.

Dirk was great last year, but I don't think that he was at his best. I've probably seen close to 95% of Dirk's career....I thought he was better in 06 and 09. Probably about as good in 10 as well.

There are certain things in Dirk's game that are better now...and things that are worse. Dirk has pretty much been the same player since 06 though. Its amazing what finally putting a quality center that fits well next to Dirk did.

You give 06 Dirk Tyson Chandler in the middle which allows him to focus more on offense and less on defense/rebounding...you'd get even better results.

[creepingdeath]

you're acting like he didn't go to the basket in 2006. That's when Bill Simmons compared him to Larry Bird.
I don't get that, either. Dirk has improved since 2006, true, but he has always attacked the basket.. claims at the opposite are nonsensical. And imo, 2009 Dirk > 2011 Dirk, since he was CLEARLY more athletic back then. That was the year he was called out for his "lack of leadership" by ... *drumroll* Chris f*cking Webber. Hilarious, really. Especially considering Dirk's off-court problems back then and his total annihilation of the Nuggets.

[Round Mound]

ALl that and he still was never able to LEAD a team to a Championship.He had all the skill and talent but 0 leadership . No wonder Pippen didn't like him. Pippen was use to playing with a leader.

You are forgeting that Pippen played with a Back Crippled Barkley prone also to knee injuries? That wasn`t the Real 1985-1995 Barkley

Pippen did not do crap in the 1999 Play-Offs while Barkley did everything to win but his teamates fell short

[rmt]

And imo, 2009 Dirk > 2011 Dirk, since he was CLEARLY more athletic back then. That was the year he was called out for his "lack of leadership" by ... *drumroll* Chris f*cking Webber. Hilarious, really. Especially considering Dirk's off-court problems back then and his total annihilation of the Nuggets.


Dirk was great last year, but I don't think that he was at his best. I've probably seen close to 95% of Dirk's career....I thought he was better in 06 and 09. Probably about as good in 10 as well.

There are certain things in Dirk's game that are better now...and things that are worse. Dirk has pretty much been the same player since 06 though. Its amazing what finally putting a quality center that fits well next to Dirk did.

You give 06 Dirk Tyson Chandler in the middle which allows him to focus more on offense and less on defense/rebounding...you'd get even better results.

I think that it's a natural progression of most players. You start off with the physical being strong and the mental/intangibles being weak and then go in opposite directions. He was more athletic/able to play longer minutes then. Now the intangibles like leadership, not getting discouraged/pushing through, smarter/better shot selection (seems like his percentage is on an upward trend) are better.

It's strange how perception is. Previous to this year's championship, a lot of people would call Dirk a "choker" and after this playoff, he's "clutch." Winning is the great eraser. Lucky for Dirk that Cuban's willing to spend whatever it takes. 87 million in payroll - no wonder Barkley and others are calling for parity. It took them a while to find the right fit in Chandler after Bradley, Damp, Diop.

[DMAVS41]

I think that it's a natural progression of most players. You start off with the physical being strong and the mental/intangibles being weak and then go in opposite directions. He was more athletic/able to play longer minutes then. Now the intangibles like leadership, not getting discouraged/pushing through, smarter/better shot selection (seems like his percentage is on an upward trend) are better.

It's strange how perception is. Previous to this year's championship, a lot of people would call Dirk a "choker" and after this playoff, he's "clutch." Winning is the great eraser. Lucky for Dirk that Cuban's willing to spend whatever it takes. 87 million in payroll - no wonder Barkley and others are calling for parity. It took them a while to find the right fit in Chandler after Bradley, Damp, Diop.


Just took getting in a quality and legit player at center.

Sure, Dirk does some things better now than he did in 06. Just like he did some things better in 06 than he does now. But if you really go back to 06, Dirk was amazing throughout the playoffs...especially in the Spurs series. He did everything.

In the finals, he struggled a bit, but that was just more basketball. He didn't have as good of a team or coach....and he was unfortunate to have to go up against Wade with those joke perimeter rules. In that series, especially games 5 and 6...Dirk was big time. He made so many clutch plays in game 5...including what could have been a game winner with 9 seconds left over Shaq...only to be answered by Wade's free throws. Its interesting how fragile that stuff can be. Put a player as good as Tyson Chandler next to Dirk in 06 and give him a quality coach like Rick Carlisle and I have no doubts the Mavs win the title.

These players don't play in a vacuum. Everything on the court impacts how they excel. Dirk went from pretty much having to do everything...to being able to focus more on scoring/offense. Give that luxury to 06 to 10 Dirk and I think you see similar or better results in terms of individual play.

I think trying to come up with intangible reasons for the Mavs winning this year complicates a simple issues. They had better coaching, better perimeter defense, and better interior defense....and Dirk had some teammates finally consistently step up when he needed them. Simple as that. Give the younger versions of Dirk all that same stuff and he's simply having more success.

That is why winning the title (especially as an underdog) is so hard. So much has to go your way and you need a little luck as well. I take issue with people that want to pretend like Dirk was holding the Mavs back each year. That is simply non sense in my opinion.

[rmt]

[/B]

Just took getting in a quality and legit player at center.

Sure, Dirk does some things better now than he did in 06. Just like he did some things better in 06 than he does now. But if you really go back to 06, Dirk was amazing throughout the playoffs...especially in the Spurs series. He did everything.

In the finals, he struggled a bit, but that was just more basketball. He didn't have as good of a team or coach....and he was unfortunate to have to go up against Wade with those joke perimeter rules. In that series, especially games 5 and 6...Dirk was big time. He made so many clutch plays in game 5...including what could have been a game winner with 9 seconds left over Shaq...only to be answered by Wade's free throws. Its interesting how fragile that stuff can be. Put a player as good as Tyson Chandler next to Dirk in 06 and give him a quality coach like Rick Carlisle and I have no doubts the Mavs win the title.

These players don't play in a vacuum. Everything on the court impacts how they excel. Dirk went from pretty much having to do everything...to being able to focus more on scoring/offense. Give that luxury to 06 to 10 Dirk and I think you see similar or better results in terms of individual play.

I think trying to come up with intangible reasons for the Mavs winning this year complicates a simple issues. They had better coaching, better perimeter defense, and better interior defense....and Dirk had some teammates finally consistently step up when he needed them. Simple as that. Give the younger versions of Dirk all that same stuff and he's simply having more success.

That is why winning the title (especially as an underdog) is so hard. So much has to go your way and you need a little luck as well. I take issue with people that want to pretend like Dirk was holding the Mavs back each year. That is simply non sense in my opinion.

I don't think it was just a matter of getting a Chandler back then. Damp/Diop were probably a better fit against Gasol/Duncan/Shaq (post offense). Shaq probably would have been licking his chops against Chandler. The Mavs this year didn't really play against elite post offense (Gasol played extremely poorly/below his standard).

As you say, it's hard to win - everything has to fall in place. The Mavs were extremely deep this year to survive injuries to Butler and eventually, Haywood. I thought that the role players stepped up especially Barea/Peja vs LA and Kidd/Marion/Chandler played great throughout.

But as much as the Mavs were an underdog this year, they were favored vs Heat in 06. They really should have won, but the refs gave them the shaft. As a Spurs fan, I saw it somewhat as payback for the DAL/SA series (as the games were soooooo close) but really it was Manu's stupid foul with 22 seconds left.

[DMAVS41]

I don't think it was just a matter of getting a Chandler back then. Damp/Diop were probably a better fit against Gasol/Duncan/Shaq (post offense). Shaq probably would have been licking his chops against Chandler. The Mavs this year didn't really play against elite post offense (Gasol played extremely poorly/below his standard).

As you say, it's hard to win - everything has to fall in place. The Mavs were extremely deep this year to survive injuries to Butler and eventually, Haywood. I thought that the role players stepped up especially Barea/Peja vs LA and Kidd/Marion/Chandler played great throughout.

But as much as the Mavs were an underdog this year, they were favored vs Heat in 06. They really should have won, but the refs gave them the shaft. As a Spurs fan, I saw it somewhat as payback for the DAL/SA series (as the games were soooooo close) but really it was Manu's stupid foul with 22 seconds left.

I agree with most of this. Although Chandler roaming the paint and playing help side defense might have been enough slow down Wade just enough for the Mavs to win.

I don't really blame the refs for 06...I blame Dirk and the Mavs a little...Avery a lot...and the stupid rules a lot. There was literally just no way to stop a player like Wade if he just continued to attack. Give Wade credit for doing it though....not easy to constantly and consistently attack a defense the way he did.

My point was that Dirk's team this year was easily the best team he's ever had. And Carlisle is a huge improvement over Avery as well. I can't change my tune on what it takes to win just because my favorite player won a title.

I think Dirk deserves a ton of credit, but nothing he did really changed. His supporting cast got better and Dirk had the great fortune of guys like Terry, Kidd, Marion, and Barea stepping up when it matters most.