Where would Kobe rank alltime with 7 NBA Championships 4 FMVP's?

[AlphaWolf24]

just curious what all the fans here think?

[kaiiu]

Rite where he is rite now. It would just confirm his #1 spot

[catch24]

A blanket question is a blanket question. It really just depends on how Kobe plays attaining those accomplishments.

[BlackJoker23]

u should've said next right before you clicked on submit thread bro

[AlphaWolf24]

A blanket question is a blanket question. It really just depends on how Kobe plays attaining those accomplishments.


well blanket it some more and we will use some common sense here.....

say playoff runs of 26 - 27PPG 5REB 5AST....2 more championships and 2 more FMVP's

[catch24]

well blanket it some more and we will use some common sense here.....

:wtf:

Why would you want to 'blanket it more'?


say playoff runs of 26 - 27PPG 5REB 5AST....2 more championships and 2 more FMVP's

Top 3-5, easily.

[SFMF]

Out of how many more finals? If he achieves those in the next two finals he plays while performing like the last two championship years, he should be in the discussion of at leas top 5 for people. I would personally have a hard time putting him above MJ and Kareem, but he will certainly have great arguments for #3 spot. It's just an empty guess though, but if this really happens... dang :eek:

EDIT: but yeah... these kinds of threads need to stop because they've been done millions of times, why don't we discuss these hypothetical questions when he actually achieves them from now on?

[SpecialQue]

A top 5 discussion maybe, but it's gonna be damn hard to convince people he's better than MJ, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird, etc.

[Clippersfan86]

A top 5 discussion maybe, but it's gonna be damn hard to convince people he's better than MJ, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird, etc.

How funny would it be if 3 of the top 5 all time players were Lakers? With Kobe, Kareem and Magic. That's unfair :no: :mad:

[pegasus]

2 (more rings) + 2 (FMVP's) = #4

No? :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

How funny would it be if 3 of the top 5 all time players were Lakers? With Kobe, Kareem and Magic. That's unfair :no: :mad:

3 of the top 5 players WERE Lakers. Kareem, Wilt, Magic.

[pegasus]

3 of the top 5 players WERE Lakers. Kareem, Wilt, Magic.

You don't put Jordan even in top-3, and then you accuse me of being biased towards Lebron in the other thread. :no:

How do you spell hypocrite?

[RRR3]

You don't put Jordan even in top-3, and then you accuse me of being biased towards Lebron in the other thread. :no:

How do you spell hypocrite?
I have Jordan first are you insane?

[Legends66NBA7]

You don't put Jordan even in top-3, and then you accuse me of being biased towards Lebron in the other thread. :no:

How do you spell hypocrite?

He said 3 of the Top 5 are Lakers. He didn't say Jordan was not in the Top 3.

[EricForman]

i'm gonna try to answer this seriously, even though it's a troll thread that deserves to be longfelined.

If he wins two more championships and Finals MVPs, then he'd be in arguably top 3 or 4, with a case for GOAT. the only guys I could see who still have a case over Kobe if he hits those milestone is Jordan and Kareem.

[EricForman]

A top 5 discussion maybe, but it's gonna be damn hard to convince people he's better than MJ, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird, etc.

come on, that's unreasonable. you saying Kobe with 7 rings and 4 finals MVP would still have a hard time be put over Bird, Magic and wilt? Maybe top five? If he gets there he is undoubtedly top 5, with a strong case for top 3.

[DMV2]

So this is if he won 2004 and 2008 Finals? Shaq would have been 2004 FMVP if LA won. So that would give Kobe 7 titles and 3 FMVP(2008*-10). *assuming LA beat also Boston in '08.

He would only be behind with Jordan...but not by much.

[SpecialQue]

come on, that's unreasonable. you saying Kobe with 7 rings and 4 finals MVP would still have a hard time be put over Bird, Magic and wilt? Maybe top five? If he gets there he is undoubtedly top 5, with a strong case for top 3.

People, unfairly, disregard the Shaq years, even though Kobe was a critical part of that team's success. Personally, I would have him definitely over Bird and just barely over Magic, but that's only because Magic's my favorite player and the Showtime Laker era is my favorite. The reason I say maybe is because these lists are always subjective and show the list-makers biases. For a lot of people on here, I honestly think they grudgingly include Kobe in their top 10.

[catch24]

People, unfairly, disregard the Shaq years, even though Kobe was a critical part of that team's success.

Kids who say that, imo, are being purposely dense and like screwing with Lakers fans. The same people have a number of convenient conditions they put on Kobe's accomplishments that they don't slap on other players. Ex: pretending he wasn't part of the 3 peat.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

About where he will end up right now without the additional rings, 3rd behind Kareem and Jordan

[EricForman]

People, unfairly, disregard the Shaq years, even though Kobe was a critical part of that team's success. Personally, I would have him definitely over Bird and just barely over Magic, but that's only because Magic's my favorite player and the Showtime Laker era is my favorite. The reason I say maybe is because these lists are always subjective and show the list-makers biases. For a lot of people on here, I honestly think they grudgingly include Kobe in their top 10.

Well I'm somewhere in the middle on the Kobe Shaq years. I don't disregard them and claim he was replaceable by 15 other shooting guards, and by the third title Kobe was definitely a bona fide franchise guy. But first title? The gap was MILES WIDE, bigger than the gap between, say, Jordan and Pip, Duncan and Manu, Magic and Kareem, Bird and McHale. THAT FIRST YEAR, Kobe was replaceable by 4-5 other swingmen. Not saying those 4-5 were AS GOOD or better, but Shaq in 2000 was that dominant that he could have swapped a guy who was 89% as good as 2000 Kobe and still have won. 2001 Kobe improved drastically but there was still a gap, and Kobe still wasn't really a legit prime time franchise guy (case in point, dude was INVISIBLE during game 1 of the 2001 finals when Iverson was running amok. you dont see 2000 Shaq or 96 Jordan or 2003 Duncan or 2011 Dirk or 94 Hakeem disappear like that. you are just not a franchise guy when you can have a playoff game where you barely did anything)

So while I don't write off Kobe's first three titles as nothing, I definitely do factor in that he was, by a wide margin, the second best player on those teams and that's why even with 7, he wouldn't top Jordan's 6.

anyway, i'm right and i know it. Kobe haters are stupid by dismissing Kobe as a complete sidekick, and the trolls are delusional/insane for thinking Kobe was virtually Shaq's equal during the their titles (if we rated them NBA 2k style, the gap between Shaq and Kobe during the three title years were probably: 14, 10, 6).

[Miller for 3]

Obvious troll thread, but in the top 5. Probably only behind MJ, Russell and KAJ

[pegasus]

I have Jordan first are you insane?

Gotcha. :cheers:

I'm glad you are not as crazy as some of your posts may suggest.

[DaPerceive]

I would put him above Magic and Bird with just 6 NBA championships and 3 Finals MVPs, so in the top 5 range. Now if we are talking 7 championships and 4 Finals MVPs? He would probably be only behind Kareem, Russell, and MJ. It would take like 8 championships and 5 Finals MVPs to surpass one of those guys.

Either way if you ask me this situation is unrealistic. I don't think Kobe has enough in him anymore to will his team to two more championships and dominate like that.

[AlphaWolf24]

Well I'm somewhere in the middle on the Kobe Shaq years. I don't disregard them and claim he was replaceable by 15 other shooting guards, and by the third title Kobe was definitely a bona fide franchise guy. But first title? The gap was MILES WIDE, bigger than the gap between, say, Jordan and Pip, Duncan and Manu, Magic and Kareem, Bird and McHale. THAT FIRST YEAR, Kobe was replaceable by 4-5 other swingmen. Not saying those 4-5 were AS GOOD or better, but Shaq in 2000 was that dominant that he could have swapped a guy who was 89% as good as 2000 Kobe and still have won. 2001 Kobe improved drastically but there was still a gap, and Kobe still wasn't really a legit prime time franchise guy (case in point, dude was INVISIBLE during game 1 of the 2001 finals when Iverson was running amok. you dont see 2000 Shaq or 96 Jordan or 2003 Duncan or 2011 Dirk or 94 Hakeem disappear like that. you are just not a franchise guy when you can have a playoff game where you barely did anything)

So while I don't write off Kobe's first three titles as nothing, I definitely do factor in that he was, by a wide margin, the second best player on those teams and that's why even with 7, he wouldn't top Jordan's 6.

anyway, i'm right and i know it. Kobe haters are stupid by dismissing Kobe as a complete sidekick, and the trolls are delusional/insane for thinking Kobe was virtually Shaq's equal during the their titles (if we rated them NBA 2k style, the gap between Shaq and Kobe during the three title years were probably: 14, 10, 6).


so much FAIL....how is it that you totally disregard Kobe bieng widely regarded as the best allaround player in 2001...already having a First team all defense in 2000 under his belt while dropping 29PPG...


from 2001 on Kobe was absolutley equal to Shaq in winning championships and IMO more Valuable....(as he has proven over time)

The only reason haters disregard Kobe's first 3 titles is because A) they most likely didn't watch Kobe in the early 2000'sand only see Shaq's FMVP's

B)They are in the small minority of the fanbase who still Rank Shaq ahead of Kobe alltime because of the FMVP's even after the whole world practically voted him best player of his generation

C) Jordan stans legacy police slighting Kobe and arguing on the interwebz over Kobe's acomplishments with a fine tooth comb....


totally disregarding and failing to use context....the early 2000's Finals were in the WCFinals....and Kobe more then proved he was the best player in the world.


how is it the rest of the world see's it.....but some elitists fans are just :mad:





haterz gonna hate I guess.:confusedshrug:



PS:Jordan disappeared many times in the Playoff's when he was 21 - 22 years old (the same age Kobe was in 2000, 20001)..and 2001 Kobe's playoff run was one of the best ever. (INB4 *******...and if he does....I got the LONGESPNEVENSAYSKOBEISTHEBESTPLAYERINTHENBACATIN20 01)


next

[AlphaWolf24]

Obvious troll thread, but in the top 5. Probably only behind MJ, Russell and KAJ


asking if a top 5 - 8 alltime player who has went to 7 Finals in the last 10 years can win 2 more where he would be ranked is trolling now?


just talking basketball....get back to your real account and apply yourself




next

[L8kersfan222]

EricForeman out-debated again, inb4 *********s

[guy]

I'd probably put him 4th behind Jordan, Russell, and Kareem. He'd jump Magic, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan. That would mean he would've remained that dominant in at least his 17th season. Thats amazing. He'd still have a lower prime then pretty much all of those guys, but that longevity and his accomplishments would be too ridiculous to ignore for me at least. He really gets hurt for only having 1 MVP though. That could be one argument to keep him out of the top 5.

[AlphaWolf24]

So Far from the responses it's looking like anywhere from #1 - #3....

March to #6 and uno mas esta Hordan #7 begins....:rockon:

[AlphaWolf24]

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aint puttin nothin in my body to turn me into a sheep....




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[AlphaWolf24]

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why use soma when Chrystal meth is much cheaper:confusedshrug:

[AlphaWolf24]

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They already have this at the pharmacy in Newport Beach...it's called

"Kobeeepeee"...bottled up and you can drink it....instantly creates swag and turns you from bumming - winning in 8 hours...


seriously....saw a shiesty looking accountant with a top shelf Ho he met at the Hotel ...and he was just sippin...

[ThaRegul8r]

A blanket question is a blanket question. It really just depends on how Kobe plays attaining those accomplishments.

/thread

I hate when people just magically handwave players rings/accolades and say, "How would you rank them now?"

:facepalm

[OldSchoolBBall]

With still just 1 MVP? Top 3-4. Behind KAJ, Jordan, and possibly one of Magic or Russell or Wilt.

[G-Funk]

I say top 3... arguably top 2. There would be no argument he can make vs MJ but I think there would be plenty of debates vs Kareem simply cause Kareem only owns 2 Finals MVP Specially if Kobe can tsurpass him on the ALL time list as far as Allstar seasons and 1st NBA teams and Scoring list...go.

[-Original-]

Rite where he is rite now. It would just confirm his #1 spot
this.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I say top 3... arguably top 2. There would be no argument he can make vs MJ but I think there would be plenty of debates vs Kareem simply cause Kareem only owns 2 Finals MVP Specially if Kobe can tsurpass him on the ALL time list as far as Allstar seasons and 1st NBA teams and Scoring list...go.

Season MVP's mean a lot more than Finals MVP's, and KAJ has 6 of them to Kobe's 1. That, plus his demonstrably superior peak, would still put him over the top.

[Jacks3]

:facepalm

How exactly do more accolades make him a better basketball player?

Shit is so silly.

:facepalm

[War Machine]

Kobe would be way more up there if he would/could have finished his career 100% totally injury free and bagged a few more titles than he already has now.

[DaPerceive]

:facepalm

How exactly do more accolades make him a better basketball player?

Shit is so silly.

:facepalm
It's the same reason why more and better awards/accolades make your job resume better and gives you a better chance of getting the job.

[OldSchoolBBall]

:facepalm

How exactly do more accolades make him a better basketball player?

Shit is so silly.

:facepalm

Kareem's greater impact in his prime makes him the better player. The OP was asking about all-time RANK, which is partly determined by accolades.

[G-Funk]

Season MVP's mean a lot more than Finals MVP's, and KAJ has 6 of them to Kobe's 1. That, plus his demonstrably superior peak, would still put him over the top.
Does this mean Rose is as great as Kobe and Nash is better than him and Shaq?

[Jacks3]

The OP was asking about all-time RANK, which is partly determined by accolades.
Yeah, and that shouldn't be the case. It's retarded.

[EricForman]

so much FAIL....how is it that you totally disregard Kobe bieng widely regarded as the best allaround player in 2001...already having a First team all defense in 2000 under his belt while dropping 29PPG...


from 2001 on Kobe was absolutley equal to Shaq in winning championships and IMO more Valuable....(as he has proven over time)

The only reason haters disregard Kobe's first 3 titles is because A) they most likely didn't watch Kobe in the early 2000'sand only see Shaq's FMVP's

B)They are in the small minority of the fanbase who still Rank Shaq ahead of Kobe alltime because of the FMVP's even after the whole world practically voted him best player of his generation

C) Jordan stans legacy police slighting Kobe and arguing on the interwebz over Kobe's acomplishments with a fine tooth comb....


totally disregarding and failing to use context....the early 2000's Finals were in the WCFinals....and Kobe more then proved he was the best player in the world.


how is it the rest of the world see's it.....but some elitists fans are just :mad:







I like how you come up with all these qualifiers, like "2000 WCF was the REAL finals, so let's ignore the series vs the East team and look at the WCF" and using age.

I wasn't saying "prime Kobe was nowhere close to prime Shaq", nor was I using prime Shaq vs young Kobe as some sort of "seee! Kobe isn't as good" argument. I was merely saying that from 2000 to 2001, Kobe's value to contribute to winning basketball was significantly inferior to Shaq during that same span.

I even conceded that Kobe was legitimate and was nearing Shaq by 2002, yet you think I'm a hater, because I think 2000 Shaq, if we go by 2k ratings, is a 99 to Kobe's 84 or so that year.

The rest of your argument doesn't make sense. Saying most people rank Kobe over Shaq now on the all time list (which is false, actually, you're going by a list in Los Angeles, I assume) DOESN'T APPLY HERE because I was stating how much better 2000 and 2001 Shaq was vs kobe from those same years. Do you get that? Stating Kobe's CAREER (with MOST of it coming after 2001) vs Shaq's CAREER doesn't apply to the point we're arguing about.

Your point about Jordan stans. I'm a "stan" according to you, yet I was arguing for Kobe to be "undoubtedly top 3 if he reaches 7 rings"... do you not see any of that and only get angry about one minor diss (saying he wasn't near Shaq in 2000 isn't even really a diss considering Shaq's greatness that year) at Kobe? You that delusional and butthurt over anything remotely not positive about Kobe?

I like how you've convinced yourself that I use l0ngcat when I'm losing a basketball argument, :oldlol: keep telling yourself that. The reality is l0ngcast is to stop stupid agenda threads started by you Kobe clowns. And it's doing a great job because you guys have stopped for the most part. No more "Pippen was such a more valuable companion player than Shaq or Gasol" threads.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I like how you come up with all these qualifiers, like "2000 WCF was the REAL finals, so let's ignore the series vs the East team and look at the WCF" and using age.

I wasn't saying "prime Kobe was nowhere close to prime Shaq", nor was I using prime Shaq vs young Kobe as some sort of "seee! Kobe isn't as good" argument. I was merely saying that from 2000 to 2001, Kobe's value to contribute to winning basketball was significantly inferior to Shaq during that same span.

I even conceded that Kobe was legitimate and was nearing Shaq by 2002, yet you think I'm a hater, because I think 2000 Shaq, if we go by 2k ratings, is a 99 to Kobe's 84 or so that year.

The rest of your argument doesn't make sense. Saying most people rank Kobe over Shaq now on the all time list (which is false, actually, you're going by a list in Los Angeles, I assume) DOESN'T APPLY HERE because I was stating how much better 2000 and 2001 Shaq was vs kobe from those same years. Do you get that? Stating Kobe's CAREER (with MOST of it coming after 2001) vs Shaq's CAREER doesn't apply to the point we're arguing about.

Your point about Jordan stans. I'm a "stan" according to you, yet I was arguing for Kobe to be "undoubtedly top 3 if he reaches 7 rings"... do you not see any of that and only get angry about one minor diss (saying he wasn't near Shaq in 2000 isn't even really a diss considering Shaq's greatness that year) at Kobe? You that delusional and butthurt over anything remotely not positive about Kobe?

I like how you've convinced yourself that I use l0ngcat when I'm losing a basketball argument, :oldlol: keep telling yourself that. The reality is l0ngcast is to stop stupid agenda threads started by you Kobe clowns. And it's doing a great job because you guys have stopped for the most part. No more "Pippen was such a more valuable companion player than Shaq or Gasol" threads.

Don't bother with him, you can literally destroy every point he tries to make and he'll just respond with some inaccurate or irrelevant trash and end it with "next".

Just taking a quick glance at that post, it's easy to see how desperate he is to change history and call Kobe equally valuable or even more valuable than Shaq in 2001 and 2002.

The funniest part is that he uses what happened long after 2001 and 2002 when the better player(Shaq) who happened to be 6-7 years older than Kobe declined as you'd expect as some sort of evidence for who was more valuable in 2001 and 2002. Ignoring all of the actual evidence from 2001 and 2002 because it doesn't support his agenda.

The Western Conference Finals argument is also a funny one because the one year that Kobe was better than Shaq in the Western Conference Finals was the one year that the finals was much more competitive than the WCF(2001).

[pauk]

pretty damn high...

how bout the MVPs? how many? would he still have only 1? in that case... Top 4-7 somewhere

[Heavincent]

pretty damn high...

how bout the MVPs? how many? would he still have only 1? in that case... Top 4-7 somewhere

FMVP > MVP

It could be argued that Kobe is already #7 on the all-time list. Kobe with 7 rings and 4 FMVP's would be in the top 5. That's not even debatable.

[gengiskhan]

will sneak into Top 10 GOATs.

[JordanTime]

will sneak into Top 10 GOATs.

LOL

But really, Kobe Bryant would be TOP 5 in terms of accomplishments/accolades.

[gengiskhan]

FMVP > MVP


Not really if you dont have arch-rival at same position.

Magic vs Michael
Michael vs Drexler


Shaq didnt win FMVPs over arch rivals
Neither did Kobe

I'll still take Birds 3 consequitive MVPs over many players FMVPs.

Bring MVP for 82 games is really really tough.

A reason why Kobe won only 1 in 15 attempts.

A reason why Shaq won only 1.

[pauk]

FMVP > MVP

It could be argued that Kobe is already #7 on the all-time list. Kobe with 7 rings and 4 FMVP's would be in the top 5. That's not even debatable.

FMVP > MVP????? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

FMVP = the most productive player in 4-7 games... which is battled between 2 teams and about 10 players.... and it always goes to the team that won the series... basically a player averaging a 100 point quadruple double, but loses the series will not win a FMVP.... but the player averaging 20 ppg... shooting horribly, but still being more productive than any player on his team, will get it, since they won the championship....

MVP = the most productive/impactful player in 82 games... which is battled between 30 teams and 400++ players... and it goes only to the player who proved to impact his team the most (with proof of team success) with his talent-skill-productions-domination....


lol at u

[Heavincent]

MVP = the most productive/impactful player in 82 games... which is battled between 30 teams and 400++ players... and it goes only to the player who proved to impact his team the most (with proof of team success) with his talent-skill-productions-domination....


So Rose was the best player in the NBA last year? Funny, I thought Lebron was your choice for that.

The FMVP goes to the guy that can play extremely well on the NBA's biggest stage. Something Lebron hasn't been able to do. Maybe that's why you act like FMVP isn't important.

[DaPerceive]

The Finals MVP is better than the regular season MVP usually, but not all the time. It depends on the context. I would say Wade's 2006 Finals MVP was more worthy than LeBron James's 2010 League MVP. I wouldn't say Tony Parker's 2007 Finals MVP was more worthy than LeBron James's 2010 League MVP though. You have to take things into perspective.

[D-Wade316]

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[ukplayer4]

So Far from the responses it's looking like anywhere from #1 - #3....



:roll: how exactly have you arrived at that when no one has even suggested top 2? almost everyone is saying top 5.

[zay_24]

Rite where he is rite now. It would just confirm his #1 spot
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[AlphaWolf24]

:roll: how exactly have you arrived at that when no one has even suggested top 2? almost everyone is saying top 5.


huh?...Most people said 1 - 3...and this is ISH....Kobe is hated by most self appointed "elitists" fans here....where ever he ranks here...he ranks about 3 spots higher in the real world to Basketball majority...


next

[oolalaa]

If he wins 2 more rings/finals mvps...

1. Jordan
2. Bryant
3. Johnson
4. Russell
5. Abdul-jabbar
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. O'neal
9. Chamberlain
10. West

If he retires tomorrow...

1. Jordan
2. Johnson
3. Russell
4. Abdul-jabbar
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. O'neal
8. Chamberlain
9. West
10. Bryant

[oolalaa]

so much FAIL....how is it that you totally disregard Kobe bieng widely regarded as the best allaround player in 2001...already having a First team all defense in 2000 under his belt while dropping 29PPG...


from 2001 on Kobe was absolutley equal to Shaq in winning championships and IMO more Valuable....(as he has proven over time)

The only reason haters disregard Kobe's first 3 titles is because A) they most likely didn't watch Kobe in the early 2000'sand only see Shaq's FMVP's

B)They are in the small minority of the fanbase who still Rank Shaq ahead of Kobe alltime because of the FMVP's even after the whole world practically voted him best player of his generation

C) Jordan stans legacy police slighting Kobe and arguing on the interwebz over Kobe's acomplishments with a fine tooth comb....


totally disregarding and failing to use context....the early 2000's Finals were in the WCFinals....and Kobe more then proved he was the best player in the world.


how is it the rest of the world see's it.....but some elitists fans are just :mad:





haterz gonna hate I guess.:confusedshrug:



PS:Jordan disappeared many times in the Playoff's when he was 21 - 22 years old (the same age Kobe was in 2000, 20001)..and 2001 Kobe's playoff run was one of the best ever. (INB4 *******...and if he does....I got the LONGESPNEVENSAYSKOBEISTHEBESTPLAYERINTHENBACATIN20 01)


next

Don't kid yourself, shaq was still the best player in the league in 2001, with kobe a close second...

[AlphaWolf24]

If he wins 2 more rings/finals mvps...

1. Jordan
2. Bryant
3. Johnson
4. Russell
5. Abdul-jabbar
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. O'neal
9. Chamberlain
10. West

If he retires tomorrow...

1. Jordan
2. Johnson
3. Russell
4. Abdul-jabbar
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. O'neal
8. Chamberlain
9. West
10. Bryant


your'e #2 guy and #8 guy disagree..:roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I dont see Kobe getting 7 championships, let him get 6 before talking about 7

[AlphaWolf24]

I dont see Kobe getting 7 championships, let him get 6 before talking about 7

U Can't C him anyways...

[Boston C's]

He would be top 3-5 but would have a case for GOAT... would be in the same tier as Jordan Magic, Wilt, Russell, and Kareem basically

[D-Wade316]

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[oolalaa]

your'e #2 guy and #8 guy disagree..:roll:

Did you delete my posts? :roll:

[Rnbizzle]

Top 4 with a case for GOAT status.

[D.J.]

MAYBE surpasses Duncan, but that's a big maybe. Even with 7 rings/4 Finals MVPs, he's still not better than Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq, and Olajuwon.

[oolalaa]

Top 4 with a case for GOAT status.

Top 4?

He would be a lock for #2 all time.

[oolalaa]

MAYBE surpasses Duncan, but that's a big maybe. Even with 7 rings/4 Finals MVPs, he's still not better than Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq, and Olajuwon.

:facepalm

I agree (with the exception of hakeem) that he currently should be behind all of those you mentioned on all time lists.

But if he has 7 rings? 4 as the best player, 2 as a close second option? and 4 fmvps?

Cmon dude. He would be a lock for #2 all time and if he won 3 more rings/fmvps he would be the goat...

[D.J.]

Cmon dude. He would be a lock for #2 all time and if he won 3 more rings/fmvps he would be the goat...


And you face palm my post. :rolleyes:

[Jacks3]

MAYBE surpasses Duncan, but that's a big maybe. Even with 7 rings/4 Finals MVPs, he's still not better than Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq, and Olajuwon.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

MAYBE surpasses Duncan, but that's a big maybe. Even with 7 rings/4 Finals MVPs, he's still not better than Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq, and Olajuwon.

You can't be serious...at least I hope you aren't

[D.J.]

You can't be serious...at least I hope you aren't


Kobe was never the defensive presence Duncan was. Duncan was a better leader and provided more intangibles. Even at 7 titles, Shaq was the alpha dog for the first 3 and we don't know if anyone will step up for any additional titles. Kobe has 2 titles as the alpha dog to Duncan's 4. Even if Kobe does win 2 more titles, don't expect him to have any dominant playoff and Finals runs like Duncan had.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Kobe was never the defensive presence Duncan was.

Obviously as Duncan is a big. No wing player impacts the defensive end of the floor like a big.


Duncan was a better leader and provided more intangibles.

That's opinion but Kobe has proven to be a great leader by taking a team that had no championship experience outside of himself and D Fish to the finals in their first year together. His will to win is also matched by very few.


Even at 7 titles, Shaq was the alpha dog for the first 3 and we don't know if anyone will step up for any additional titles.

Well the second part is true, we don't have any specific scenarios to base this off of so we don't know if another player will emerge as the best player, but that shouldn't count as a strike against Kobe. As far as Shaq being the "alpha dog" for 3, that is a stupid reason to discredit Kobe. It wasn't like he wasn't putting up 1st option numbers, he just played with someone who was better at the time. Do we discredit Magic for playing with Kareem? Or Bird for playing on some of the greatest teams ever? Why doesn't Shaq get penalized for playing with a guy that put up 25/6/5 and helping him win a title?

It's like Kobe is the only one held to this standard. Everyone pretends that no other all time great that won multiple titles didn't have good pieces around them. Shaq was just as lucky to play with Kobe as Kobe was to play with him.


Kobe has 2 titles as the alpha dog to Duncan's 4. Even if Kobe does win 2 more titles, don't expect him to have any dominant playoff and Finals runs like Duncan had.

But 4 FMPs would almost certainly indicate that Kobe was the best and most productive player on the team. Would that not prove he is the "alpha dog"? Or are we going to asterisk those as well because it's Kobe.

And look at his last 3 playoffs/finals runs of 30/6/6, 30/6/5 and 29/6/5. That's not dominant? I don't know where the myth comes from that Kobe doesn't turn it up in the playoffs. He's done it every year for the past decade.

[D.J.]

Obviously as Duncan is a big. No wing player impacts the defensive end of the floor like a big.


Not necessarily true. It almost never happens, but Jordan and Pippen's perimter D was just as valuable, if not more so than the post D from Grant/Cartwright and Rodman/Longley.



That's opinion but Kobe has proven to be a great leader by taking a team that had no championship experience outside of himself and D Fish to the finals in their first year together. His will to win is also matched by very few.


No one has questioned Kobe's leadership skills. My point is that Duncan's is better. Look at Duncan's teammates the years the Spurs won the title. His teammates weren't exactly quality players.



Well the second part is true, we don't have any specific scenarios to base this off of so we don't know if another player will emerge as the best player, but that shouldn't count as a strike against Kobe. As far as Shaq being the "alpha dog" for 3, that is a stupid reason to discredit Kobe. It wasn't like he wasn't putting up 1st option numbers, he just played with someone who was better at the time. Do we discredit Magic for playing with Kareem? Or Bird for playing on some of the greatest teams ever? Why doesn't Shaq get penalized for playing with a guy that put up 25/6/5 and helping him win a title?


It's not to discredit Kobe. Neither win titles without the other, but Shaq made the Finals in just his third season and he did have at least some playoff success before Kobe emerged.



It's like Kobe is the only one held to this standard. Everyone pretends that no other all time great that won multiple titles didn't have good pieces around them. Shaq was just as lucky to play with Kobe as Kobe was to play with him.


Both needed each other to win a title, but like I said earlier: Shaq did have at least some playoff success before Kobe became a star. He's not winning 3 titles in a row with Kobe, but Shaq could have won a title somewhere without him. Shaq did make the Finals at 23, also made the ECF his last year in Orlando, and made the WCF once before the Lakers won their 2000 title. The Lakers record without Shaq was much worse than their record without Kobe playing.




But 4 FMPs would almost certainly indicate that Kobe was the best and most productive player on the team. Would that not prove he is the "alpha dog"? Or are we going to asterisk those as well because it's Kobe.


For the Finals, yes. The only problem is unlike the Conn Smythe hockey, a player can have a hot series and win it. A regular season MVP holds more ground because it takes into account 82 games, not one round that's 7 games tops. Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, and Cedric Maxwell all have a Finals MVP. John Starks would likely have one as well if the Knicks didn't choke their title anyway in '94. Doesn't mean Kobe is not an alpha dog, but another 2 titles and a Finals MVP doesn't automatically put him above Duncan.



And look at his last 3 playoffs/finals runs of 30/6/6, 30/6/5 and 29/6/5. That's not dominant? I don't know where the myth comes from that Kobe doesn't turn it up in the playoffs. He's done it every year for the past decade.


I never said otherwise. But Duncan was simply more dominant and at both ends. He's had playoffs of 24/14+/4/2.7, 27+/14/5/4.3, 25/15/5/3.3, and 20/14+/3/2.

[eliteballer]

"Kobe," says Celtic Coach Doc Rivers, "might be the best help defender since Pippen."


http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4972/it-s-the-lakers-court-but-it-s-the-celtics-house

Game 7 2000 vs Blazers:

21 year old Kobe: 25 pts 7 reb 11 ast 4 blk

Prime Shaq: 18 pts 9 reb 5 ast 1 blk

Kobe's obliterated Duncans teams in the playoffs so many times I lost count. Funny how you try to discredit Kobe's first 3 titles without mentioning Parkers Finals MVP....

[D.J.]

Game 7 2000 vs Blazers:

21 year old Kobe: 25 pts 7 reb 11 ast 4 blk

Prime Shaq: 18 pts 9 reb 5 ast 1 blk


Yes, because one game clearly puts Kobe on Shaq's level. :rolleyes:



Kobe's obliterated Duncans teams in the playoffs so many times I lost count.


And yet Duncan still dominated:


2001- 23/12/4/1.3/4.3

2002- 29/17/4+/1/3.2

2003- 28/12/5/1.3

2004- 20+/12/3/1/1.7

2008- 22/17/5/1.2/2


That's a 26 game average of 24.7 PPG/14.1 RPG/4.3 APG/0.9 SPG/2.2 BPG. Some of his games include 28/14/6/5, 40/15/3/4, 26/21/5/1/4, 27/17/5/1/5, 34/25/4/1/2, 37/16/4/2, 30/11/3/3/2, 21/21/2/4, 30/18/2/2/4, 22/21/5/1, 29/17/3/3/3, and 19/15/10/1.

[AlphaWolf24]

Did you delete my posts? :roll:


ummm....no:confusedshrug:

[AlphaWolf24]

[QUOTE]Yes, because one game clearly puts Kobe on Shaq's level. :rolleyes:


Yes because "Finals MVP" in a span of 15 games over 7 years clearly means Shaq is carying...:lol

and Kobe already proved he replaced Shaq with a soft Euro and still barely skipped a beat..Shaq never came close to bieng as dominate without Kobe..before or since...

7+ 50 win teams without Kobe and he won 1 as a "sidekick"..





And yet Duncan still dominated:


2001- 23/12/4/1.3/4.3

2002- 29/17/4+/1/3.2

2003- 28/12/5/1.3

2004- 20+/12/3/1/1.7

2008- 22/17/5/1.2/2


That's a 26 game average of 24.7 PPG/14.1 RPG/4.3 APG/0.9 SPG/2.2 BPG. Some of his games include 28/14/6/5, 40/15/3/4, 26/21/5/1/4, 27/17/5/1/5, 34/25/4/1/2, 37/16/4/2, 30/11/3/3/2, 21/21/2/4, 30/18/2/2/4, 22/21/5/1, 29/17/3/3/3, and 19/15/10/1


and yet Kobe still beat him so many times...and yet Kobe still went to 7 NBA Finals and won more.....and yet Tony parker carried him 1 year..:lol

[Hondo]

I'd like to know what his case for number 1 would be if he had a championship every season but averaged 20ppg, but was always the Finals MVP.

[D.J.]

Yes because "Finals MVP" in a span of 15 games over 7 years clearly means Shaq is carying...:lol


But Kobe having 1 better game is. Such a beta wolf you are. :oldlol: 6 games > 1 game, 5 games > 1 game, and 4 games > 1 game. Yet Kobe never ever won Finals MVP over Shaq.



and Kobe already proved he replaced Shaq with a soft Euro and still barely skipped a beat..Shaq never came close to bieng as dominate without Kobe..before or since...


How convenient you skipped 3 seasons. Replace Shaq with Chris Mihm and add Caron Butler, Chucky Atkins, Lamar Odom, Jumaine Jones, Luke Walton, Brian Grant and crew; what do we have? A losing season and 2 first round exits. :roll: Not looking good for your boy.



7+ 50 win teams without Kobe and he won 1 as a "sidekick"..


And what has Kobe accomplished without Shaq and Gasol? Even less than Shaq has without Kobe. :roll: Shaq took rookie Penny Hardaway, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, and a bunch of role players to 50 wins. He then took second year Penny, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, Horace Grant, and Donald Royal to the NBA Finals. He then took the same guys and a nearly non-existent bench to 60 wins(40-14 with him, 20-8 without him) and the ECF.

He also took a Lakers team that had 19 year old Kobe, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Rick Fox, Elden Campbell, and a bunch of bench scrubs not including Kobe to 61 wins and the WCF.



and yet Kobe still beat him so many times...and yet Kobe still went to 7 NBA Finals and won more.....


Yet Duncan still outplayed him! :roll: And guess what? Since you like playing these games. Here's one more. Robert Horry has more rings than Kobe. :roll:



and yet Tony parker carried him 1 year..:lol


2007 regular season
TD- 20.0/10.6/3.4/2.4
TP- 18.6/5.5/3.2/1.1

2007 playoffs
TD- 22.2/11.5/3.3/3.1
TP- 20.8/5.8/3.4/1.1


Duncan was outplayed by one teammate in one round of the playoffs. Nice try claiming Parker carried when he did no more than simply outplay and in only 1 round out of 4. :roll:

[eliteballer]

Yes, because one game clearly puts Kobe on Shaq's level. :rolleyes:





And yet Duncan still dominated:


2001- 23/12/4/1.3/4.3

2002- 29/17/4+/1/3.2

2003- 28/12/5/1.3

2004- 20+/12/3/1/1.7

2008- 22/17/5/1.2/2


That's a 26 game average of 24.7 PPG/14.1 RPG/4.3 APG/0.9 SPG/2.2 BPG. Some of his games include 28/14/6/5, 40/15/3/4, 26/21/5/1/4, 27/17/5/1/5, 34/25/4/1/2, 37/16/4/2, 30/11/3/3/2, 21/21/2/4, 30/18/2/2/4, 22/21/5/1, 29/17/3/3/3, and 19/15/10/1.

Funny how in spite of that Kobe destroying Duncan's teams is the reason he didnt win a title:roll:

[King24]

He'd be top 3 ever. lol @ the idiot who has Duncan/Hakeem/Magic/Bird over him.

:roll:

[D.J.]

Funny how in spite of that Kobe destroying Duncan's teams is the reason he didnt win a title:roll:


You Kobe homers and your agendas. :roll: Still pissed over Duncan shitting on your asses 8 years ago.

[King24]

You Kobe homers and your agendas. :roll: Still pissed over Duncan shitting on your asses 8 years ago.
5 titles. Owned Duncan's ass the entire decade+ (01,02,04,08)

Yeah, I'm so pissed. :oldlol:

[D.J.]

5 titles. Owned Duncan's ass the entire decade+ (01,02,04,08)

Yeah, I'm so pissed. :oldlol:


Duncan shit on your boy, even when he lost. 28/14/6/5, 40/15/3/4, 26/21/5/4, 30/11/6/4, 34/25/4/2, 36/9/5, 21/21/2/4, 30/18/2/2/4, 22/21/5, 29/17/3/3/3, and 19/15/10. You know what those are? Duncan, even when his team lost. He shit on your team, even when he was on the losing side. :roll: Win or lose, he layed the smackdown on your Lakers.

[King24]

:oldlol:

Who the **** cares? Kobe was still outplaying him and the Lakers were still destroying the Sperms. Over and over again. Owned them the entire decade.

:roll:

[D.J.]

Kobe was still outplaying him


Not according to the numbers I posted. Hell Duncan at 32 was still destroying your bigs under the boards. :roll:

[King24]

And yet he still lost Lakers. Again. While choking like a dog in a couple of games too. :oldlol:

[D.J.]

And yet he still lost Lakers. Again. While choking like a dog in a couple of games too. :oldlol:


And yet I still can display facts that show Duncan was more dominant and impacted games more than Kobe did and you still can't accept it. :roll:

[King24]

Kobe was better in 2001/2002/2004/2008, as Duncan was owned over and over again, and choked over and again.Face the facts son.

[Deuce Bigalow]

MAYBE surpasses Duncan, but that's a big maybe. Even with 7 rings/4 Finals MVPs, he's still not better than Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq, and Olajuwon.

lol, Kobe already surpassed Duncan in 2010

[D.J.]

Kobe was better in 2001/2002/2004/2008, as Duncan was owned over and over again, and choked over and again.Face the facts son.


:roll: @ Duncan being owned. Duncan owned your entire team, even when he lost. Face the facts, son.



lol, Kobe already surpassed Duncan in 2010


:roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

^ this moron :oldlol:

[King24]

:roll: @ Duncan being owned. Duncan owned your entire team, even when he lost. Face the facts, son.






Yup, he was really owning the Lakers as he was blown out by 20+ points every game in 2001, consistently choking in the 4th quarters in 2002, losing a 2-0 series lead while putting up 17 PPG/40% FG in the final four games in 2004, and getting beat in five in 2008, despite having 18+ point leads in two separate games,and still managing to lose both games. Yeah, he's really "owned" us. LOL

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPWvJ2wr44&feature=player_embedded

Kobe outscoring the Spurs team by himself in the 4th quarter, then hits the game winner :oldlol:

[D.J.]

^ You 2 morons :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

:oldlol: @ Tim Dunkedon being better than Kobe

[King24]

Freaking idiot. :oldlol:

[D.J.]

Freaking idiot. :oldlol:


Speak for yourself. Too bad you have the logic of a woman. Too bad you'll never be as knowledgable as me.