Final list of ISHs Top 25 Guards.

[Kblaze8855]

Top 25
------------
#25 Joe Dumars
#24 Earl Monroe
#23 Tracy McGrady
#22 Tiny Archibald
#21 Dennis Johnson
#20 Reggie Miller
#19 Ray Allen
#18 Sam Jones
#17 Hal Greer
#16 George Gervin
#15 Allen Iverson
#14 Gary Payton
#13 Clyde Drexler
#12 Steve Nash
#11 Jason Kidd
#10 John Stockton
#9 Walt Frazier
#8 Dwyane Wade
#7 Bob Cousy
#6 Isiah Thomas
#5 Oscar Robertson
#4 Jerry West
#3 Kobe Bryant
#2 Magic Johnson
#1 Michael Jordan.

Thoughts?

Who is too high? Too low? Missing?



I'll give GOAT time to return to do the forwards I guess. Mostly becuase I really really really dont feel like counting up 10-15 peoples lists of top 25 forwards to get the list to begin the voting.

Plus as I understood it hes making a top 100 and would therefore have to split small forwards and power forwards up to get 25 of each to go with 25 guards and 25 centers so....not sure what hes doing. Not trying to **** up his process......

[Legends66NBA7]

Looking back at this most of the players are in the right spots.

Cousy is a little too high, IMO.

Iverson and Payton are low.

Missing would be Pistol Pete.

[JordanTime]

Looking back at this most of the players are in the right spots.

Cousy is a little too high, IMO.

Iverson and Payton are low.

Missing would be Pistol Pete.

agreed on everything Legends66NBA7 said.

[DMAVS41]

Nash is a little too high for me.

[Sarcastic]

Looking back at this most of the players are in the right spots.

Cousy is a little too high, IMO.

Iverson and Payton are low.

Missing would be Pistol Pete.

I agree.
Iverson is hated around here by all the stat nerds, so it was expected.

[Fatal9]

Cousy...just SMH.


I rate players by different measures so my list is much different but Cousy at 7 just sticks out.

[Kblaze8855]

Its funny to me how people talk up accomplishments and winning when only one of the top 15 didnt lead his team to more success than Cousy did without Russell.

Cousy is a name. He didnt actually take his teams anywhere. But a lot of "Winning matters most" types prop him up as if they didnt notice the Celtics were better without him.


edit:

At a glance...18 people of the 25 had more playoff success than Cousy without Russell. And thats not counting several people who were key players on title teams like Tiny, Dumars, and Ray Allen. At least 18 straight up led their teams to more success.

But they didnt get Bill Russell to ride for half a career.

[MasterDurant24]

Top 25
------------
#25 Joe Dumars
#24 Earl Monroe
#23 Tracy McGrady
#22 Tiny Archibald
#21 Dennis Johnson
#20 Reggie Miller
#19 Ray Allen
#18 Sam Jones
#17 Hal Greer
#16 George Gervin
#15 Allen Iverson
#14 Gary Payton
#13 Clyde Drexler
#12 Steve Nash
#11 Jason Kidd
#10 John Stockton
#9 Walt Frazier
#8 Dwyane Wade
#7 Bob Cousy
#6 Isiah Thomas
#5 Oscar Robertson
#4 Jerry West
#3 Kobe Bryant
#2 Magic Johnson
#1 Michael Jordan.

Thoughts?

Who is too high? Too low? Missing?



I'll give GOAT time to return to do the forwards I guess. Mostly becuase I really really really dont feel like counting up 10-15 peoples lists of top 25 forwards to get the list to begin the voting.

Plus as I understood it hes making a top 100 and would therefore have to split small forwards and power forwards up to get 25 of each to go with 25 guards and 25 centers so....not sure what hes doing. Not trying to **** up his process......

Good list. Cousy too high, I would have Sam Jones over Hal Greer, and DJ over Reggie Miller.

[Kblaze8855]

Good list. Cousy too high, I would have Sam Jones over Hal Greer, and DJ over Reggie Miller.


Few things ever confused me like seeing people rank Reggie over DJ for making jumpers and being clutch while losing 19 years in a row. Seems his jumpers and clutchness didnt do much when it mattered. By winning or just...ability? DJ should have destroyed Reggie. And DJ was an elite player. An all nba first teamer. An all time great defender. A guy who was doing Reggie like numbers in the playoffs(plus assists) in a smaller offensive role while having to guard everyone from Isiah, to MJ, to Magic.

But Reggie made 9 shots most here remember seeing so hes better.....

[1987_Lakers]

Thought DJ should be ranked over Miller & Nash over Kidd & Stockton.

[AlphaWolf24]

Now to the real question...what is the % of the "voters" who actually watched basketball before 1996???....:roll:

betcha it's around 15%...


No one here ever watched Magic's ,Cousy's,MJ's prime except maybe 15%

[NuggetsFan]

Now to the real question...what is the % of the "voters" who actually watched basketball before 1996???....:roll:

betcha it's around 15%...


No one here ever watched Magic's ,Cousy's,MJ's prime except maybe 15%

Bingo. I'll talk about them after carefully looking over whatever I can but I can't tell you about Bob Cousy. I can tell you awards\statistics\few games that are available but that's about it.

You ask a 70 year old man who's followed basketball his entire life and I bet you he laughs at a list like that. Can you imagine 20 years from now everybody going off numbers\awards\youtube video's? Monta Ellis set to be a top 10 guard of the 00's :lol

[AlphaWolf24]

Bingo. I'll talk about them after carefully looking over whatever I can but I can't tell you about Bob Cousy. I can tell you awards\statistics\few games that are available but that's about it.

You ask a 70 year old man who's followed basketball his entire life and I bet you he laughs at a list like that. Can you imagine 20 years from now everybody going off numbers\awards\youtube video's? Monta Ellis set to be a top 10 guard of the 00's :lol


serious....

I Know Kblaze has been following hoops for awhile at least since the late 80's.....but 90% of these other cats just saying same tired stuff that everyone else who never watched basketball before 1996 says...


I guarantee most prolly never seen MJ in a Bull's uniform:roll:

except on youtube.

[Kblaze8855]

I was thinking about that a while ago. Jordan on the Bulls was a long ass time ago. there ae adults who were born after he retired the first time. Shit makes me feel old. Doesnt seem that long ago....

[magnax1]

I'll never get how TMac can be behind guys like Dennis Johnson and Reggie Miller. That is just insane to me. Other wise, the only other things that stick out are AI is a couple spots to low for me, and Frazier over Stockton is kind of silly to me. Overall, not that terribly different from my list.

[Kblaze8855]

I get him being behind DJ. Im not sure id have voted it that way but I can say Dennis was arguably the best player on a title team(tossup between him and gus) and was an all nba first team type who played a major part of winning 3 rings.

He was an elite player.

Reggie never was. Reggie just makes no sense where he is.

[PowerGlove]

I remember watching Jordan on WGN and NBC tripleheaders on Sunday when I was a kid but at the earliest I must have been six. Now I'm 21.

[magnax1]

I get him being behind DJ. Im not sure id have voted it that way but I can say Dennis was arguably the best player on a title team(tossup between him and gus) and was an all nba first team type who played a major part of winning 3 rings.

He was an elite player.

Reggie never was. Reggie just makes no sense where he is.
DJ was arguably the best player on a title team, but in the same way Ben Wallace was. It was just a stacked team with like 3 other guys who were borderline all star caliber. I also don't know about him being an all NBA first team type guy. More like a borderline all star guy. He only made 2 all NBA teams in his career. He was a good defender, but his offense was pretty average, maybe a bit above for 3-4 years.
And if Reggie doesn't make sense where he is, neither does Ray Allen. The only real separation between the two was that Reggie was a bit better scorer for a longer period, and Allen was a better passer. TMac over him is crazy, as in TMac is just way to low for me, but Reggie is just about right.

[Kblaze8855]

I kinda wonder why you wouldcall Reggie a better scorer than Ray. hes no a better shooter. Not a better shooter off the dribble. hes not approaching pre Celtics Ray as a slasher. Ray was banging on people often enough to stop being impressed by it. Reggie had an underrated post game but he only used it twice a week. And Ray did the same.

I think Reggie is a better scorer than his low ppg suggests...but not that much better. I think people assume he wasnt shooting more because he was just a nice guy or trying nto to press it or something...he just didnt get many good looks because he couldnt create seperation without screens.

Reggie over Ray as a scorer feels like a "Because I think he could have" thing. Not like he was even shooting epic percentages. Ray has put up 22+ a game on 48% shooting and 43% from 3 and 88 at the line. His numbers just drop due to the 3s. At one point he took over 8 3s a game and still shot 40+ percent.

I just dont see the case for Reggie over ray as a scorer by skills or anything else.

[L.Kizzle]

Its funny to me how people talk up accomplishments and winning when only one of the top 15 didnt lead his team to more success than Cousy did without Russell.

Cousy is a name. He didnt actually take his teams anywhere. But a lot of "Winning matters most" types prop him up as if they didnt notice the Celtics were better without him.


edit:

At a glance...18 people of the 25 had more playoff success than Cousy without Russell. And thats not counting several people who were key players on title teams like Tiny, Dumars, and Ray Allen. At least 18 straight up led their teams to more success.

But they didnt get Bill Russell to ride for half a career.
If that's the case, everyone with Bill Rusell attached to their names is no good, right?

Sam Jones = no good, Russell ride
Tommy Heinsohn = no good, Russell ride
KC Jones = All aboard the Russell ride in college into the pros
Satch Sanders = yep, 1st class ride
Frank Ramsey = bus fair pass on Russell all the way to the Hall of Fame
Havlicek = yep him too, missed the playoffs after Russell retired
Bailey Howell, Andy Phillip = got rings with Russell after failed attempts with other teams

[Kblaze8855]

No good is not the same as not deserving to be ranked over people who led teams to titles while being factually superior to you. Which Wade did...and is.

Wade was the best player on better teams than Cousy and is flat out better at the game than Cousy.

Hondo did his thing in the 70s. He had Cowens...but you cant say he wasnt needed.

Cousy? Ican say with no doubt he was not needed for that team to be a dynasty...because he won nothing without russell and russell won 5 without him and claimed they had their best team ever due to defense without Cousy.

there is just no justification for Cousy to be as high as he is unless we pretend Russell didnt exist. Credit cousy for those rings..fine. Rank him over Wade despite Wade being better in reality.

Credit the man who deserves it...Cousy is not near the level voted.

You could literally put me in my current form on the Celtics and if only for being bigger than him, a better athlete, and willing to play defense id win rings. They won 5 rings...without him.

Im not crediting him for their success at all. I just cant justify it.

[Reggie43]

I kinda wonder why you wouldcall Reggie a better scorer than Ray. hes no a better shooter. Not a better shooter off the dribble. hes not approaching pre Celtics Ray as a slasher. Ray was banging on people often enough to stop being impressed by it. Reggie had an underrated post game but he only used it twice a week. And Ray did the same.

I think Reggie is a better scorer than his low ppg suggests...but not that much better. I think people assume he wasnt shooting more because he was just a nice guy or trying nto to press it or something...he just didnt get many good looks because he couldnt create seperation without screens.

Reggie over Ray as a scorer feels like a "Because I think he could have" thing. Not like he was even shooting epic percentages. Ray has put up 22+ a game on 48% shooting and 43% from 3 and 88 at the line. His numbers just drop due to the 3s. At one point he took over 8 3s a game and still shot 40+ percent.

I just dont see the case for Reggie over ray as a scorer by skills or anything else.

How about being a more efficient scorer on similar averages? Their career field goal percentage of 47% for Reg and 45% for Ray is a big enough difference especially if your comparing them as scorers. All the skills in the world doesnt mean anything if you cant do it effectively.

Try watching Miller in his younger days and you can see him putting the ball on the floor with a quick first step either going all the way to the rim or using very effective leaning/running jumper.

The problem with most posters here is that they only remember Reggie on his last days when he lost most of his athletic ability and relied on his experience and still deadly jumper to survive

[andgar923]

How about being a more efficient scorer on similar averages? Their career field goal percentage of 47% for Reg and 45% for Ray is a big enough difference especially if your comparing them as scorers. All the skills in the world doesnt mean anything if you cant do it effectively.

Try watching Miller in his younger days and you can see him putting the ball on the floor with a quick first step either going all the way to the rim or using very effective leaning/running jumper.

The problem with most posters here is that they only remember Reggie on his last days when he lost most of his athletic ability and relied on his experience and still deadly jumper to survive

I remember a while back I mentioned that Reggie was a better scorer than Bron.

I explained that he could score on you in multiple ways, all set up with his jumper. Most people think he only came off screens or hit shots after a guard kicked it out to him, but that's not true. He was great at getting a player off balance, sizing them up, beating them with jab steps, using screens, pump fakes etc.etc. some of the things that Bron can't do. Doesn't mean he's a better player or more dangerous, just a more balanced scorer who's abilities get overlooked.

[Kblaze8855]

Im from chicago. I watched young Reggie. Live. And on tv many times. This was back when you played within your division like 5 times. I watched Reggie get his 19 points in 44 minutes then lose many many many times. I didnt get the big deal then and I never did. Though starting around 2002 I did want to see him win a ring.

[magnax1]

I kinda wonder why you wouldcall Reggie a better scorer than Ray. hes no a better shooter. Not a better shooter off the dribble. hes not approaching pre Celtics Ray as a slasher. Ray was banging on people often enough to stop being impressed by it. Reggie had an underrated post game but he only used it twice a week. And Ray did the same.

I think Reggie is a better scorer than his low ppg suggests...but not that much better. I think people assume he wasnt shooting more because he was just a nice guy or trying nto to press it or something...he just didnt get many good looks because he couldnt create seperation without screens.

Reggie over Ray as a scorer feels like a "Because I think he could have" thing. Not like he was even shooting epic percentages. Ray has put up 22+ a game on 48% shooting and 43% from 3 and 88 at the line. His numbers just drop due to the 3s. At one point he took over 8 3s a game and still shot 40+ percent.

I just dont see the case for Reggie over ray as a scorer by skills or anything else.
It's not a "Because I think he could have" thing but more a "He consistently did in the playoffs" thing. He put up basically the same ppg #s over 10+ years as ray did over 4 years in the playoffs in his prime (not counting 08) You can say he isn't as skilled, or whatever you want, but it really doesn't mean anything when he put up better results.

[Kblaze8855]

Missed this...


How about being a more efficient scorer on similar averages? Their career field goal percentage of 47% for Reg and 45% for Ray is a big enough difference especially if your comparing them as scorers. All the skills in the world doesnt mean anything if you cant do it effectively.

Taking 13 shots a game limiting your shots to easy ones in the flow doesnt mean you are able to score more "effectively". It means you take 13 shots a game. And a good scorer should shoot well taking 13 shots a game. Ray has shot 48, 48, and 49% the last 3 years. In a time where guards dont shoot when they did when Reggie was shooting 50%(early 90s).

He didnt just get better. He shoots less. Reggie never had to carry his offense that much. He never had to shoot enough to drop his percentages. The year Reggie peaked in shots per minute(not total...he was playing less minutes than in the early 90s) he shot 44%. The Pacers didnt ride Reggie. They went through Smits more than reggie as I remember it he just didnt have numbers because he never played big minutes.

Most good guards shoot upper 40s if they play 35-40 minutes and pick their spots while the team is winning or close without them needing to score.

If a truly great scorer took the 13 shots a game Reggie took in his prime he might shoot 55%. Not taking as many 3s as Reggie took..but that was his game.

Im not blown away by shooting mid to upper 40s when you take so few shots. Not shooting enough to miss more doesnt make you a better shooter.

[Reggie43]

I remember a while back I mentioned that Reggie was a better scorer than Bron.

I explained that he could score on you in multiple ways, all set up with his jumper. Most people think he only came off screens or hit shots after a guard kicked it out to him, but that's not true. He was great at getting a player off balance, sizing them up, beating them with jab steps, using screens, pump fakes etc.etc. some of the things that Bron can't do. Doesn't mean he's a better player or more dangerous, just a more balanced scorer who's abilities get overlooked.

I wont say that, but it kind of makes sense. Same way that you might say Rik Smits is a better scorer than Shaq because he has many more ways to score.
Nice job on describing Reggie's game by the way

[Kblaze8855]

It's not a "Because I think he could have" thing but more a "He consistently did in the playoffs" thing. He put up basically the same ppg #s over 10+ years as ray did over 4 years in the playoffs in his prime (not counting 08) You can say he isn't as skilled, or whatever you want, but it really doesn't mean anything when he put up better results.

Putting up 27 a game in 44 minutes as your team gets swept sure helps a career playoff average.....doesnt mean it was getting results. Reggie scored 25 a game in one playoff run that wasnt a brief 3-5 games bumping up his averages. 1. In like 19 years.

Excuse me for not hitting the roof when a guy who did nothing but score had one somewhat high scoring post season in 2 decades.

Its almost like when people say "Dirk rebounds in the playoffs" ignoring that 98% of the basketball he plays isnt in the playoffs. Only Dirk wasnt doing it for 4 losing games to bump up how it looks on basketball reference 20 years later.

Reggie was always a guy who felt better than he was. He was such a major figure in the 90s. But he didnt really...do...anything.

Real stars get laughed at for doing what Reggies fans prop him up for(losing in the ECF...make the finals once in 2 decades and lose). Reggie had a great career for what he was. A third tier star.

Start comparing him to the real best players(as a top 25 list must) and he pales.

[magnax1]

Putting up 27 a game in 44 minutes as your team gets swept sure helps a career playoff average.....doesnt mean it was getting results. Reggie scored 25 a game in one playoff run that wasnt a brief 3-5 games bumping up his averages. 1. In like 19 years.

Excuse me for not hitting the roof when a guy who did nothing but score had one somewhat high scoring post season in 2 decades.
That's pretty much bullshit. He had 2 playoffs from 92-02 where he didn't score more then 23 ppg, and had 3 15+ game playoff runs where he averaged more then 23 ppg. It's not like he was having a bunch of short runs and a couple of them were really high scoring. He averaged something around 24 ppg over 100+ playoff games. You can't just wave that off as a statistical anomaly. That's just how good he was. I don't know how you can say he and Ray aren't comparable as scorers when he did that. Sure, Ray was a better scorer off the dribble, and got inside more, but it doesn't matter at all when he got the same results.
Also, are you going to start the top 25 forwards project?

[Dizzle-2k7]

Nash over Payton why?

[Reggie43]

Missed this...



Taking 13 shots a game limiting your shots to easy ones in the flow doesnt mean you are able to score more "effectively". It means you take 13 shots a game. And a good scorer should shoot well taking 13 shots a game. Ray has shot 48, 48, and 49% the last 3 years. In a time where guards dont shoot when they did when Reggie was shooting 50%(early 90s).

He didnt just get better. He shoots less. Reggie never had to carry his offense that much. He never had to shoot enough to drop his percentages. The year Reggie peaked in shots per minute(not total...he was playing less minutes than in the early 90s) he shot 44%. The Pacers didnt ride Reggie. They went through Smits more than reggie as I remember it he just didnt have numbers because he never played big minutes.

Most good guards shoot upper 40s if they play 35-40 minutes and pick their spots while the team is winning or close without them needing to score.

If a truly great scorer took the 13 shots a game Reggie took in his prime he might shoot 55%. Not taking as many 3s as Reggie took..but that was his game.

Im not blown away by shooting mid to upper 40s when you take so few shots. Not shooting enough to miss more doesnt make you a better shooter.

Basically your saying that Ray's 20.2 on 45% is much more efficient than Reg's 18.2 on 47% on two fewer shots? with Ray's numbers bound to drop as he plays a few more seasons

[Reggie43]

Im from chicago. I watched young Reggie. Live. And on tv many times. This was back when you played within your division like 5 times. I watched Reggie get his 19 points in 44 minutes then lose many many many times. I didnt get the big deal then and I never did. Though starting around 2002 I did want to see him win a ring.

You watched young reggie play yet you claim he couldnt create seperation without screens? That maybe somewhat true in his final years but definitely not in his prime.

[Kblaze8855]

That's pretty much bullshit. He had 2 playoffs from 92-02 where he didn't score more then 23 ppg, and had 3 15+ game playoff runs where he averaged more then 23 ppg.

I say he scored over 25 a game once and you call it bullshit...then tell me about him scoring 23 a game?

What is 23 a game anyway? Just a number chosen because its around what he did?

And as i said...it was usually in brief runs.


It's not like he was having a bunch of short runs and a couple of them were really high scoring. He averaged something around 24 ppg over 100+ playoff games. You can't just wave that off as a statistical anomaly. That's just how good he was.

I dont call it a statistical anomaly. I call it...scoring 24ppg. Which is nothing to me. Like when Penny had that series vs I think the Heat. Plays the whole game...scores like 35...loses the series.

And?

For a future HOF player who does nothing but score nothing reggie did as a scorer stands out.


I don't know how you can say he and Ray aren't comparable as scorers when he did that. Sure, Ray was a better scorer off the dribble, and got inside more, but it doesn't matter at all when he got the same results.

Except he didnt get the same results. He scored more than Reggie ever did. Reggie raising his scoring up for 2 weeks a season to the level Ray was at for his entire career doesnt make them equals.

Reggie spent most of his career doing nothing but scoring on teams that often needed him to score more than he did. hes out there dropping 11 points in elimination games or 9 points in a close loss where he shot 7 times and im to pretend hes some great scorer?

Reggie half the time was the most invisible superstar of all time. But the brief time he shined he left memories that make people forget that eve though he hit the magical shot with the push off of jordan he hit 12 total shots in games 4, 5, and 6 combined vs the Bulls then watched them come back and win game 7 after they had control.

He always did a lot more in memory than he actually did on the floor.



Also, are you going to start the top 25 forwards project?

From earlier:


I'll give GOAT time to return to do the forwards I guess. Mostly becuase I really really really dont feel like counting up 10-15 peoples lists of top 25 forwards to get the list to begin the voting.

Plus as I understood it hes making a top 100 and would therefore have to split small forwards and power forwards up to get 25 of each to go with 25 guards and 25 centers so....not sure what hes doing. Not trying to **** up his process......

Really not sure what hes doing.

[NBAller]

I think Magic has a funny looking jumper. Great contribution, i know.:applause:

[Kblaze8855]

You watched young reggie play yet you claim he couldnt create seperation without screens? That maybe somewhat true in his final years but definitely not in his prime.

Relative to the players in question? All time greats? No. Its like if I say Karl Malone couldnt score one on one with the game on the line. It doesnt mean he literally fumbles the ball away in the post once the 4th quarter comes. It means...compared to those I might be comparing him to.

Of all the players who would come up in talks of the best scoring guards of the last 20 years...I think Reggie would be the worst to put on an island one on one with a solid defender and the expected help behind him.

If Reggie scores 20 he probably had 2 layups on the break, 2 3s, a pump fake and stepthrough he might bank off the glass, 6 free throws at least 4 of them on ******l calls he drew by flopping,and at some point he might jab step 4 times and rise up. Throw a quick assisted layup in there with the help stuck to smits and hes got his points.

Hes not just gonna work a guy over and over and over on a regular basis. He wasnt that kind of scorer.

[Reggie43]

Relative to the players in question? All time greats? No. Its like if I say Karl Malone couldnt score one on one with the game on the line. It doesnt mean he literally fumbles the ball away in the post once the 4th quarter comes. It means...compared to those I might be comparing him to.

Of all the players who would come up in talks of the best scoring guards of the last 20 years...I think Reggie would be the worst to put on an island one on one with a solid defender and the expected help behind him.

If Reggie scores 20 he probably had 2 layups on the break, 2 3s, a pump fake and stepthrough he might bank off the glass, 6 free throws at least 4 of them on ******l calls he drew by flopping,and at some point he might jab step 4 times and rise up. Throw a quick assisted layup in there with the help stuck to smits and hes got his points.

Hes not just gonna work a guy over and over and over on a regular basis. He wasnt that kind of scorer.

Its funny how you manage paragraphs out of simple questions.

You never said anything about comparing him to the players in question or all time greats. You just said that he couldnt create separation without screens which was far from the truth.

If it was up to you to describe Reggie's game to someone who never saw him play that person might think he would be similar to players like del curry or some other spotshooter

[Hondo]

Top 25
------------
#25 Joe Dumars
#24 Earl Monroe
#23 Tracy McGrady
#22 Tiny Archibald
#21 Dennis Johnson
#20 Reggie Miller
#19 Ray Allen
#18 Sam Jones
#17 Hal Greer
#16 George Gervin
#15 Allen Iverson
#14 Gary Payton
#13 Clyde Drexler
#12 Steve Nash ------------ Too high
#11 Jason Kidd
#10 John Stockton ----------- Too low
#9 Walt Frazier
#8 Dwyane Wade
#7 Bob Cousy ------------Too high
#6 Isiah Thomas
#5 Oscar Robertson
#4 Jerry West
#3 Kobe Bryant
#2 Magic Johnson
#1 Michael Jordan.


Missing: Jo Jo White (2 time champ, Finals MVP, 7 time all-star, All-NBA 2nd team x 2, huge jump in production in the playoffs, heart and soul of the 70's Celtics)

[Kblaze8855]

Its funny how you manage paragraphs out of simple questions.

Sorry if I felt "I didnt mean it like that" wouldnt explain what I did mean.



You never said anything about comparing him to the players in question or all time greats. You just said that he couldnt create separation without screens which was far from the truth.

Ive said Ben Wallace cant shoot.

Yet ive seen him make 6-7 threes in a row.

So I suppose its not true to say he cant. Its true to say he cant compared to those who can. I dont think we should have to make that clear.

Reggie cant create his own shot compared to...people good at it. Hes not bad at it compared to people who suck.


If it was up to you to describe Reggie's game to someone who never saw him play that person might think he would be similar to players like del curry or some other spotshooter

I think mine would give them a better idea of what he did in reality than a fan of his who would likely have the guy thinking Reggie was some kinda beast who only scored 18-19 a game out of love for his teammates.

The guy made like....5 jumpers a night, 2 uncontested layups, and some FTs. Most of it in unremarkable fashion.

One on one he wasnt even an Isiah Rider type.

[RobertdeMeijer]

Thanks everybody for working on this project. Thank you KBlaze for picking it up! I can't wait for G.O.A.T. to come back!

As for the final list: it's very very good and worth all the time put into it.


(The only thing I would really want to change is Tracy McGrady for Sidney Moncrief.)

[Reggie43]

Sorry if I felt "I didnt mean it like that" wouldnt explain what I did mean.




Ive said Ben Wallace cant shoot.

Yet ive seen him make 6-7 threes in a row.

So I suppose its not true to say he cant. Its true to say he cant compared to those who can. I dont think we should have to make that clear.

Reggie cant create his own shot compared to...people good at it. Hes not bad at it compared to people who suck.



I think mine would give them a better idea of what he did in reality than a fan of his who would likely have the guy thinking Reggie was some kinda beast who only scored 18-19 a game out of love for his teammates.

The guy made like....5 jumpers a night, 2 uncontested layups, and some FTs. Most of it in unremarkable fashion.

One on one he wasnt even an Isiah Rider type.

How about compared to all nba players regardless of who were good at it or not.

Never said anything about him being a great one on one player, just that he could create separation without screens and was very capable of playing one on one.

Never said he was a beast, I give as much credit to the Pacers success in the 90's to players like Rik Smits, Davis Bros. and Mark jackson.

I view him as a good player capable of being great with the game on the line which obviously didnt happen enough or else he would have a ring :hammerhead:

[Kblaze8855]

Fair enough. smits in particular I think gets disregarded. Some people were all offended years ago when Yao was still developing when I said im not sure hes gonna be better than Rik Smits. Posting his stats like I was all out of line...

He played 25 ****ing minutes a game!

[Reggie43]

Fair enough. smits in particular I think gets disregarded. Some people were all offended years ago when Yao was still developing when I said im not sure hes gonna be better than Rik Smits. Posting his stats like I was all out of line...

He played 25 ****ing minutes a game!

Foot problems really ruined his career, he was so vital to the pacers and certainly deserved more praise

[Reggie43]

Fair enough. smits in particular I think gets disregarded. Some people were all offended years ago when Yao was still developing when I said im not sure hes gonna be better than Rik Smits. Posting his stats like I was all out of line...

He played 25 ****ing minutes a game!

Thought of the same thing back then :lol Now looking back at their careers it was basically a wash given the same amount of minutes, with yao being 2 rbs and 1 point better

[WillC]

Not too dissimilar to the rankings on my blog (which are a compilation of well-respected publications' rankings): http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html

Red = ISH ranks them lower than average
Black = ISH ranks them the same as average
Green = ISH ranks them higher than average

Basketball Journalist's Top 25 Guards

#25 Bill Sharman (ISH = NR)
#24 Lenny Wilkens (ISH = NR)
#23 Reggie Miller (ISH = 20th)
#22 Hal Greer (ISH = 17th)
#21 Dennis Johnson (ISH = 21st)
#20 Pete Maravich (ISH = NR)
#19 Sam Jones (ISH = 18th)
#18 Earl Monroe (ISH = 24th)
#17 Tiny Archibald (ISH = 22nd)
#16 Steve Nash (ISH = 12th)
#15 Clyde Drexler (ISH = 13th)
#14 Gary Payton (ISH = 14th)
#13 George Gervin (ISH = 16th)
#12 Allen Iverson (ISH = 15th)
#11 Jason Kidd (ISH = 11th)
#10 Dwyane Wade (ISH = 8th)
#9 Walt Frazier (ISH = 9th)
#8 John Stockton (ISH = 10th)
#7 Bob Cousy (ISH = 7th)
#6 Isiah Thomas (ISH = 6th)
#5 Jerry West (ISH = 4th)
#4 Kobe Bryant (ISH = 3rd)
#3 Oscar Robertson (ISH = 5th)
#2 Magic Johnson (ISH = 2nd)
#1 Michael Jordan (ISH = 1st)

[NugzHeat3]

I remember a while back I mentioned that Reggie was a better scorer than Bron.

I explained that he could score on you in multiple ways, all set up with his jumper. Most people think he only came off screens or hit shots after a guard kicked it out to him, but that's not true. He was great at getting a player off balance, sizing them up, beating them with jab steps, using screens, pump fakes etc.etc. some of the things that Bron can't do. Doesn't mean he's a better player or more dangerous, just a more balanced scorer who's abilities get overlooked.
You're a ****ing moron. That was the nicest way I could have put that.

Reggie Miller couldn't create his own shot. Those are the words of his ****ing coach.

That flopping ***** is one of the most overrated players imaginable.

[Mystic]

Iverson is wayy too low, he should def be top 10 atleast

[NugzHeat3]

KJ over Dumars. Better player.

I'd take Price and Hardaway over Dumars too. Well, the Hardaway that wasn't in love with the pull up three. But that's where longevity and "winning" comes in so I can see why Dumars got rated higher.

Miller over McGrady is just wrong. I'm not sure if I would rank Miller over Richmond. I would have killed to seen them switch teams for their entire career just to see how they would be viewed in retrospect.

Oscar over West although I'm not too concerned with it.

Nash over Stockton and Kidd.

Gervin over Iverson.

[Reggie43]

You're a ****ing moron. That was the nicest way I could have put that.

Reggie Miller couldn't create his own shot. Those are the words of his ****ing coach.

That flopping ***** is one of the most overrated players imaginable.

Isnt taking guys off the dribble and hitting stepback jumpers creating your own shot? including all the jabsteps and fakes to get defenders off balance.
You talk as if he only relied on kickouts and screens by teammates which probably consisted of only half his offensive game.

[Reggie43]

KJ over Dumars. Better player.

I'd take Price and Hardaway over Dumars too. Well, the Hardaway that wasn't in love with the pull up three. But that's where longevity and "winning" comes in so I can see why Dumars got rated higher.

Miller over McGrady is just wrong. I'm not sure if I would rank Miller over Richmond. I would have killed to seen them switch teams for their entire career just to see how they would be viewed in retrospect.

Oscar over West although I'm not too concerned with it.

Nash over Stockton and Kidd.

Gervin over Iverson.

Mcgrady's not making out of the first round really hurt his chances of being properly ranked but he was definitely the better more complete player.

It would be easier for Miller to replicate Richmond stats because it is very similar as it is than Richmond replicating all the playoff success Miller has achieved. Especially those pressure packed series with Orlando, the Knicks and the Bulls.

[NugzHeat3]

Isnt taking guys off the dribble and hitting stepback jumpers creating your own shot? including all the jabsteps and fakes to get defenders off balance.
You talk as if he only relied on kickouts and screens by teammates which probably consisted of only half his offensive game.
He didn't beat a lot of guys off the dribble. A lot of times he did so would be when he would catch the defender either off balance or taking advantage of a bad closeout since they respected his shot too much.

A stepback jumper is a bailout shot. You create seperation with it but its not necessarily putting pressure on the defense the way dribble penetration would.

Reggie's biggest problem was he never had the handle to create his shot at an elite level. I didn't watch him in his highest scoring season but I remember him from 1993 on at the very least and he was like in his 5th season at that point with no major injury so I'm not buying that his athleticism was done at that point.

But I'll give him credit for the shot fakes, ability to read the defenders movement and their momentum shifts. His jumpshot opened up the game for him to some extent.

[NugzHeat3]

Mcgrady's not making out of the first round really hurt his chances of being properly ranked but he was definitely the better more complete player.

It would be easier for Miller to replicate Richmond stats because it is very similar as it is than Richmond replicating all the playoff success Miller has achieved. Especially those pressure packed series with Orlando, the Knicks and the Bulls.
Mitch created off the dribble a lot more than Miller and he saw a lot more double teams as well. Reggie was just hard to double team since he worked without the ball so much so that's an edge Reggie has.

But everything else goes to Richmond. Mitch wasn't an elite ball handler, either but certainly better than Reggie. The biggest difference I would say is in their strength. Mitch's strong base and lower center of gravity allowed him to post guys up on the block and likewise, he was hard to post up which is something Jordan commented on.

But like the point you brought up, the only reason I have trouble putting Mitch above Reggie is due to Reggie's playoff games. We just don't know how Mitch would have fared in those situations because he rarely made the playoffs. I remember he went at Payton and the Sonics one time though.

Reggie generally played better in the playoffs despite tougher defenses because its hard to game plan and shut down a player like Reggie.

[Reggie43]

He didn't beat a lot of guys off the dribble. A lot of times he did so would be when he would catch the defender either off balance or taking advantage of a bad closeout since they respected his shot too much.

A stepback jumper is a bailout shot. You create seperation with it but its not necessarily putting pressure on the defense the way dribble penetration would.

Reggie's biggest problem was he never had the handle to create his shot at an elite level. I didn't watch him in his highest scoring season but I remember him from 1993 on at the very least and he was like in his 5th season at that point with no major injury so I'm not buying that his athleticism was done at that point.

But I'll give him credit for the shot fakes, ability to read the defenders movement and their momentum shifts. His jumpshot opened up the game for him to some extent.

Agreed on most of your points but I still felt that he really had an underrated faceup game where he would beat defenders off a quick first step to drive or pullup for a jumper

[NugzHeat3]

Agreed on most of your points but I still felt that he really had an underrated faceup game where he would beat defenders off a quick first step to drive or pullup for a jumper
To each his own. I'm sure you saw more Reggie than I did.

[Kblaze8855]

Reggie didnt have a quick first step. Reggie had a quick enough first step to go by flat footed defenders and guys running up expecting him to shoot and having their momentum going the wrong way to react to him suddenly driving. But he wasnt just facing up on a defender ready to play him for the drive and going by him. Not on a regular basis at least. He could go by you because you had to play him so close out of respect for the jumper. he isnt a guy you back off to keep him out of the lane and he goes by anyway.

[Boston C's]

Basically your saying that Ray's 20.2 on 45% is much more efficient than Reg's 18.2 on 47% on two fewer shots? with Ray's numbers bound to drop as he plays a few more seasons

And with the way hes shooting this late in his career his shooting percentages will only go up... ray aged far better then reggie as well reggie at 36 yrs old put up 12 points a game... and for reggie shooting less shots the only reason he did was because he couldnt create for himself to take more... if he was a scorer of rays caliber he would find himself taking close to 20 shots a game on good efficiency but the fact of the matter is he really couldnt create off the dribble all that well... reggie peaked at 15.7 shots a game on great shooting percentages which is great but true scorers have more then one way to score and whether most ppl wanna admit it or not reggie really relied on screens throughout his whole career... he could put it on the floor once in a while but thats about it... back in the bucks and sonics ray had the whole repertoire from screens to off the dribble etc... he was just a better scorer then reggie period

[aau]

wow

makes you wonder who actually saw reggie play

ray better off the dribble?

CAREER FTA

reggie - 7,026 . . . 600+ twice . . . 500+ 4 times
r allen - 4,540 . . . 400+ ONCE . . . 350+ 6 times

reggie was better catchin it off screens and continuing
with the dribble . . . far more creative and daring
absorbing contact and finishing and one

each attempted career 6500 threes at 39%
each attempted career 17K shots in mid 40s

reggie damn near shot 3000 more free throws

.

joining big 3 and tri-kick title aside

saying reggie scored and never won . . . . wow

ray reached the playoffs just 4 times his first 11 years

each have played in 5 post seasons with double digit games

reggie avg 23 - 25 - 20 - 20 - 24 on % 45 - 47 - 42 - 40 - 45
r allen avg 25 - 26 - 15 - 18 - 16 on % 47 - 47 - 42 - 40 - 43

.

CAREER

reb - reggie 4000 .. ray 4700
ast - reggie 4000 .. ray 3900
stl - reggie 1,500 .. ray 1300
blk - reggie 300 .... ray 200

PTS

reggie 25,279 .... PS - 2,972
r allen 22,286 .... PS - 2,138

.

.

yeah ray was the better scorer

he just scored less

[Pointguard]

Looking back at this most of the players are in the right spots.

Cousy is a little too high, IMO.

Iverson and Payton are low.

Missing would be Pistol Pete.

Yeah this, pretty much.

[aau]

H2H reggie and ray met 33 times

.

25 reg sea - reggie avg 20.5 - ray 18.0

8 playoffs - reggie avg 25.0 - ray 22.1

.

reggie scored 30 eight times incl 40 twice
(41-17 ... 41-18)

ray scored 30 just once - reggie had 27

.

ray scored less than 20 ... 16x

less than 17 ..... 12x

[Kblaze8855]

You say you wonder who saw them play then post numbers that dont require any real knowledge of them at al?

[Kblaze8855]

And this may in fact be the worst point ive ever seen made by someone I took serious:


PTS

reggie 25,279 .... PS - 2,972
r allen 22,286 .... PS - 2,138

.

.

yeah ray was the better scorer

he just scored less

Really...really...thats how you make that point?

[Boston C's]

wow

makes you wonder who actually saw reggie play

ray better off the dribble?

CAREER FTA

reggie - 7,026 . . . 600+ twice . . . 500+ 4 times
r allen - 4,540 . . . 400+ ONCE . . . 350+ 6 times

reggie was better catchin it off screens and continuing
with the dribble . . . far more creative and daring
absorbing contact and finishing and one

each attempted career 6500 threes at 39%
each attempted career 17K shots in mid 40s

reggie damn near shot 3000 more free throws

.

joining big 3 and tri-kick title aside

saying reggie scored and never won . . . . wow

ray reached the playoffs just 4 times his first 11 years

each have played in 5 post seasons with double digit games

reggie avg 23 - 25 - 20 - 20 - 24 on % 45 - 47 - 42 - 40 - 45
r allen avg 25 - 26 - 15 - 18 - 16 on % 47 - 47 - 42 - 40 - 43

.

CAREER

reb - reggie 4000 .. ray 4700
ast - reggie 4000 .. ray 3900
stl - reggie 1,500 .. ray 1300
blk - reggie 300 .... ray 200

PTS

reggie 25,279 .... PS - 2,972
r allen 22,286 .... PS - 2,138

.

.

yeah ray was the better scorer

he just scored less

I'm sry but theres so much fail here its not even funny... reggie gets to the line because he would constantly kick his feet out when he shoots to draw fouls... hes the sole reason why players cant do that today... and you wanna post numbers really? you forget to mention that ray not only averages better points but rebounds steals assists basically every major statistical category there is... your point is moot... yes reggie is a great player and a hall of famer but ill tell you one thing everyone knows that ray was the better and more complete player... ray will get in the hall of fame on the first shot whereas reggie will probably be a second or third ballot hall of famer (should be second)

[Boston C's]

H2H reggie and ray met 33 times

.

25 reg sea - reggie avg 20.5 - ray 18.0

8 playoffs - reggie avg 25.0 - ray 22.1

.

reggie scored 30 eight times incl 40 twice
(41-17 ... 41-18)

ray scored 30 just once - reggie had 27

.

ray scored less than 20 ... 16x

less than 17 ..... 12x

yes reggie scored more then him but what about the other numbers... yea ray assisted and rebounded better but nobody posts that... because all reggie could do was shoot thats it and most of those games were ray in his rookie or second yr whereas reggie was at his peak

[aau]

You say you wonder who saw them play then post numbers that dont require any real knowledge of them at al?

.

but saying that someone is better off the dribble when they
forced 3000 less FTA requires a plethora of knowledge

this number supports the fact that reggie was
better at attacking off the dribble and
creating scoring opportunities

does it not

[aau]

And this may in fact be the worst point ive ever seen made by someone I took serious:



Really...really...thats how you make that point?

.

that's your counter

really???!!!

that's your comeback??!!!

i was reading brickwalls of texts earlier

[Kblaze8855]

You just gave me total points to argue who the best player is ignoring how many games were played. I felt a wall of text wouldnt sink in for anyone who feels thats a reasonable thing to do.

[aau]

I'm sry but theres so much fail here its not even funny... reggie gets to the line because he would constantly kick his feet out when he shoots to draw fouls... hes the sole reason why players cant do that today... and you wanna post numbers really? you forget to mention that ray not only averages better points but rebounds steals assists basically every major statistical category there is... your point is moot... yes reggie is a great player and a hall of famer but ill tell you one thing everyone knows that ray was the better and more complete player... ray will get in the hall of fame on the first shot whereas reggie will probably be a second or third ballot hall of famer (should be second)

.

lmao

3000 free throws worth of leg kicks

reggie a great player . . really??!!

that's not what i was hearing

don't feel like rehashing just that had i not known
any better i'd thought you guys were talking
about a player like craig ehlo or j starks

[aau]

yes reggie scored more then him but what about the other numbers... yea ray assisted and rebounded better but nobody posts that... because all reggie could do was shoot thats it and most of those games were ray in his rookie or second yr whereas reggie was at his peak

.

i just threw the other numbers in for
a full perspective of the players

seeing that one-dimensional was the term
being tossed around like frisbees

[aau]

You just gave me total points to argue who the best player is ignoring how many games were played. I felt a wall of text wouldnt sink in for anyone who feels thats a reasonable thing to do.

.

i gave you a lot more than total points blaze

what about you killin reggiie for coming up short in
the playoffs but y'boy ray making the playoffs
just 4 times in his first 11 years . . . . . . .

what about the FTA , , , what about H2H

what about the similar number of 3PA
and FGA with only diff being FTA

check the difference in

CAREER POINTS

3000

[aau]

most of those games were ray in his rookie or second
year whereas reggie was at his peak

.

here's the breakdown

regular season

8 matchups in 97-98 ray's 2nd year

3 matchups in 98-99 ray's 3rd year

4 matchups in 99-00 ray's 4th year

4 matchups in 00-01 ray's 5th year

4 matchups in 01-02 ray's 6th year

2 matchups in 02-03 ray's 7th year

.

thus

17 matchups after ray's 2nd year

ZERO matchups his rookie year

all playoff m/u were 99 & 00

.

you were sayin

[Boston C's]

.

lmao

3000 free throws worth of leg kicks

reggie a great player . . really??!!

that's not what i was hearing

don't feel like rehashing just that had i not known
any better i'd thought you guys were talking
about a player like craig ehlo or j starks

What is great player not good enough for you... should I say hes Godlike... gimme a break honestly reggie is so freakin overrated its annoying he did one thing and could do it well which he was superb at... to say reggie was a better basketball player then ray allen is just absurd ray did everything literally EVERYTHING better then reggie in the game of basketball even shooting... you like to look at stats so much you can compare... ray ups reggie in every statistical category so that should tell you something... I'm not even a reggie hater I absolutely love the guy because he is a great player and nobody is saying hes not so idk what you are saying that your hearing otherwise... fact of the matter is though reggie was great at shooting and thats it even in his prime all he could do is shoot everyone who knows anything about basketball knows this... he could put it on the floor every now and then but never consistently... reggie is great but ray is better its not even a discussion anymore rays got the ring the accolades the stats the records and the one thing reggie had over him before the 3 point record so therefore ray>reggie

[Reggie43]

What is great player not good enough for you... should I say hes Godlike... gimme a break honestly reggie is so freakin overrated its annoying he did one thing and could do it well which he was superb at... to say reggie was a better basketball player then ray allen is just absurd ray did everything literally EVERYTHING better then reggie in the game of basketball even shooting... you like to look at stats so much you can compare... ray ups reggie in every statistical category so that should tell you something... I'm not even a reggie hater I absolutely love the guy because he is a great player and nobody is saying hes not so idk what you are saying that your hearing otherwise... fact of the matter is though reggie was great at shooting and thats it even in his prime all he could do is shoot everyone who knows anything about basketball knows this... he could put it on the floor every now and then but never consistently... reggie is great but ray is better its not even a discussion anymore rays got the ring the accolades the stats the records and the one thing reggie had over him before the 3 point record so therefore ray>reggie

For all the supposed advantages Ray has over Reggie youd think he would be able to easily outplay Miller in head to head matchups which didnt happen.

Their ages on the matchups were 22-27 for Ray while Reggie was 32-37, youd think the supposed much better player in his prime would perform better against the out of his prime player who only did one thing superb his whole career as you claim

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=millere01&p2=allenra02

How could it not be even a discussion when stats wise Ray was only 2 pts, 1.3 rebs and .6 assists more while shooting a lower percentage than Reggie with all those stats bound to go down as he goes up in age

[bdreason]

Good list.


Miller is too high. Isiah is too low. AI is too low.

[cuad]

I giggled when I saw Cousy ranked one spot higher than Dwyane Wade. Cousy is Nash level at best.

*Based on watching Cousy's last game, where he hurts his ankle and then gets it shot with Novocaine and comes back to win the title and end his career on his feet.

[Boston C's]

For all the supposed advantages Ray has over Reggie youd think he would be able to easily outplay Miller in head to head matchups which didnt happen.

Their ages on the matchups were 22-27 for Ray while Reggie was 32-37, youd think the supposed much better player in his prime would perform better against the out of his prime player who only did one thing superb his whole career as you claim

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=millere01&p2=allenra02

How could it not be even a discussion when stats wise Ray was only 2 pts, 1.3 rebs and .6 assists more while shooting a lower percentage than Reggie with all those stats bound to go down as he goes up in age

If were talking careers here then thats significantly better... if you wanna say his stats will drop dont forget to mention his shooting percentages will go up... also reggie at the age of 37 wasnt doin production anythin close to ray at this stage of his career... you can spin it any way you want but the fact still is ray is significantly better then reggie it goes beyond stats as well... you look at accolades and personal achievements and you see ray ups reggie in pretty much everything

[Reggie43]

If were talking careers here then thats significantly better... if you wanna say his stats will drop dont forget to mention his shooting percentages will go up... also reggie at the age of 37 wasnt doin production anythin close to ray at this stage of his career... you can spin it any way you want but the fact still is ray is significantly better then reggie it goes beyond stats as well... you look at accolades and personal achievements and you see ray ups reggie in pretty much everything

To you thats signicantly better? How would his percentages go up when his skills and athletic ability are declining due to age?

Why would you compare a 37 year old miller to a 35 year old allen? Miller at 35 was averaging 31.3 pts per game against the eventual eastern conference champs Sixers in the playoffs

What separates Miller with Allen to me is all the intangibles Reggie had and your telling me that Ray was better at that too?

[L.Kizzle]

No good is not the same as not deserving to be ranked over people who led teams to titles while being factually superior to you. Which Wade did...and is.

Wade was the best player on better teams than Cousy and is flat out better at the game than Cousy.

Hondo did his thing in the 70s. He had Cowens...but you cant say he wasnt needed.

Cousy? Ican say with no doubt he was not needed for that team to be a dynasty...because he won nothing without russell and russell won 5 without him and claimed they had their best team ever due to defense without Cousy.

there is just no justification for Cousy to be as high as he is unless we pretend Russell didnt exist. Credit cousy for those rings..fine. Rank him over Wade despite Wade being better in reality.

Credit the man who deserves it...Cousy is not near the level voted.

You could literally put me in my current form on the Celtics and if only for being bigger than him, a better athlete, and willing to play defense id win rings. They won 5 rings...without him.

Im not crediting him for their success at all. I just cant justify it.
Not only Cowens but JoJo White, Charlie Scott and Paul Silas among others.

And yes, Russell get's most of the credit, hence him being in most top 5 list.

[BIZARRO]

I think it came out to be overall a pretty nice list.

But there is no universe where Jason Kidd is better than Clyde Drexler.

[32MJ32]

What was the criteria for this list? Excellence against one's peers?

That's the only way this list makes sense to me

[Boston C's]

To you thats signicantly better? How would his percentages go up when his skills and athletic ability are declining due to age?

Why would you compare a 37 year old miller to a 35 year old allen? Miller at 35 was averaging 31.3 pts per game against the eventual eastern conference champs Sixers in the playoffs

What separates Miller with Allen to me is all the intangibles Reggie had and your telling me that Ray was better at that too?

I dont understand this post... I'm comparing a 37 yr old allen to a 35 yr old miller who wasnt nearly as productive... allen doesnt look like hes declining shooting wise he had his best shooting yr from the field... thats pretty damn impressive... intangibles sure he has one thing but ray is pretty damn clutch himself and reggies intangibles=overrated they make him better then he really is to everyone around the world... his intangibles got him ZERO rings... reggie is an all time great but ppl always forget his dismal performances and thats what baffles me you have to call it both ways... he killed the knicks but at the same time he had a few stinkers against them and other teams as well (game 7 in 94 or 95 i believe he was like 2-14 but nobody remembers that right)... again all time great player but he gets overrated a lot for his intangibles... ray allen is just a flat out better player then reggie

[Reggie43]

I dont understand this post... I'm comparing a 37 yr old allen to a 35 yr old miller who wasnt nearly as productive... allen doesnt look like hes declining shooting wise he had his best shooting yr from the field... thats pretty damn impressive... intangibles sure he has one thing but ray is pretty damn clutch himself and reggies intangibles=overrated they make him better then he really is to everyone around the world... his intangibles got him ZERO rings... reggie is an all time great but ppl always forget his dismal performances and thats what baffles me you have to call it both ways... he killed the knicks but at the same time he had a few stinkers against them and other teams as well (game 7 in 94 or 95 i believe he was like 2-14 but nobody remembers that right)... again all time great player but he gets overrated a lot for his intangibles... ray allen is just a flat out better player then reggie

You dont even know their ages :facepalm Ray allen was 35 in his last season and you brought up a 37 year old miller as comparison?

Father time catches up with everyone, while it was great that he had a career shooting year the previous year its more likely to decline as he goes up in age.

Put prime Reggie as the 3rd best player on any team and certainly he would have a ring just like Ray

Everyone has a bad game and Ray's no exception. As the third best player on the team I remember he put up zero points with him playing 37mins in a playoff game against cleveland. How about the 0-13 finals game against the Lakers with him putting up 2pts? and the 3-14 game 7 he had in the same series?

And heres something I wrote on another thread

How about let them switch teams. Do you think Ray Allen can replicate all those Playoff heroics Miller did against Shaqs Magic, Ewing's Knicks, and Jordan's Bulls? plus many others

It would be easier to imagine Reggie having the same amount of success as the 3rd best player behind Pierce and Garnett on Boston than Ray playing in Indiana as the best player and taking on those aforementioned teams and being as successful

[Boston C's]

You dont even know their ages :facepalm Ray allen was 35 in his last season and you brought up a 37 year old miller as comparison?

Father time catches up with everyone, while it was great that he had a career shooting year the previous year its more likely to decline as he goes up in age.

Put prime Reggie as the 3rd best player on any team and certainly he would have a ring just like Ray

Everyone has a bad game and Ray's no exception. As the third best player on the team I remember he put up zero points with him playing 37mins in a playoff game against cleveland. How about the 0-13 finals game against the Lakers with him putting up 2pts? and the 3-14 game 7 he had in the same series?

And heres something I wrote on another thread

How about let them switch teams. Do you think Ray Allen can replicate all those Playoff heroics Miller did against Shaqs Magic, Ewing's Knicks, and Jordan's Bulls? plus many others

It would be easier to imagine Reggie having the same amount of success as the 3rd best player behind Pierce and Garnett on Boston than Ray playing in Indiana as the best player and taking on those aforementioned teams and being as successful

heroics of what... losing to them anyway... do i think the pacers would be a better team with a prime ray allen absolutely theres no doubt in my mind because he could do MORE... and ray for the record was not in his prime with the celtics not even close... 2008 he was probably just getting out of his prime but not even close to his prime self... the fact of the matter is the pacers didnt win jack with reggie as their leader... you can talk about all of the heroics you want but they didnt amount to winning... the fact still remains that ray is a better basketball player then reggie that shouldnt even be debatable... with the pacers i see ray probably having the same amount of success... if you wanna look for a measuring stick look at the 04-05 sonics team he took to the playoffs that team was AWFUL... and they were picked to finish last in the west and in the entire nba by most analysts... and for the record ray was the second best celtic in the 2008 nba finals also he scored 2 points against the cavs lmao its still awful but i just wanted to point that out... we'll just agree to disagree i guess but i just strongly feel that ray was just flat out better then reggie at pretty much every facet of the game

[Reggie43]

heroics of what... losing to them anyway... do i think the pacers would be a better team with a prime ray allen absolutely theres no doubt in my mind because he could do MORE... and ray for the record was not in his prime with the celtics not even close... 2008 he was probably just getting out of his prime but not even close to his prime self... the fact of the matter is the pacers didnt win jack with reggie as their leader... you can talk about all of the heroics you want but they didnt amount to winning... the fact still remains that ray is a better basketball player then reggie that shouldnt even be debatable... with the pacers i see ray probably having the same amount of success... if you wanna look for a measuring stick look at the 04-05 sonics team he took to the playoffs that team was AWFUL... and they were picked to finish last in the west and in the entire nba by most analysts... and for the record ray was the second best celtic in the 2008 nba finals also he scored 2 points against the cavs lmao its still awful but i just wanted to point that out... we'll just agree to disagree i guess but i just strongly feel that ray was just flat out better then reggie at pretty much every facet of the game

Aside from the bulls series the pacers were 1-1 against orlando and won half the time against the knicks

By saying the pacers would be a better team with Ray Allen with ray being so much better its safe to assume that you think the pacers with Ray will be able to beat Shaq and the Magic, Ewing and the Knicks and Jordan with the Bulls because Reggie took all those teams to a game 7 before losing the series

And for the last time please explain to me why the much better player in his prime got outplayed significantly by the inferior player who was out of his prime who was supposed to be lesser at every aspect of the game

[Reggie43]

heroics of what... losing to them anyway... do i think the pacers would be a better team with a prime ray allen absolutely theres no doubt in my mind because he could do MORE... and ray for the record was not in his prime with the celtics not even close... 2008 he was probably just getting out of his prime but not even close to his prime self... the fact of the matter is the pacers didnt win jack with reggie as their leader... you can talk about all of the heroics you want but they didnt amount to winning... the fact still remains that ray is a better basketball player then reggie that shouldnt even be debatable... with the pacers i see ray probably having the same amount of success... if you wanna look for a measuring stick look at the 04-05 sonics team he took to the playoffs that team was AWFUL... and they were picked to finish last in the west and in the entire nba by most analysts... and for the record ray was the second best celtic in the 2008 nba finals also he scored 2 points against the cavs lmao its still awful but i just wanted to point that out... we'll just agree to disagree i guess but i just strongly feel that ray was just flat out better then reggie at pretty much every facet of the game

He scored zero points on 0-4 shooting with 4 rebs 1 assist and 4 turnovers in 37 mins

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805060BOS.html

[Boston C's]

He scored zero points on 0-4 shooting with 4 rebs 1 assist and 4 turnovers in 37 mins

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805060BOS.html

I stand corrected there... and from individual matchups you act like reggie dominated every game he and ray played against... there were games ray outplayed him... if you wanna completely ignore my points then thats your problem... but any basketball fan that knows anything knows that ray allen has surpassed reggie miller in his career it was set in stone when he broke his 3 point record this yr because that was the only thing that reggie had on him and with that gone he has nothing over ray at all... rings check... accolades check... records check... everything else check... again i love reggie and am a huge fan i just dont see the case for him being over ray when ray has surpassed him in literally every statistical category... you have your opinion and i have mine i guess

[aau]

the fact still remains that ray is a better basketball
player then reggie that shouldnt even be debatable

but the discussion was about scoring and
ability off the dribble , why the change

anyway how is it that
ray never shot 50% from the floor while
reggie shot 50% 4x - incl 50/42/90 in 1994

or

CAREERWISE

FTA
reggie 27th with 7,026
rayray 97th with 4,540

FTM
reggie 14th with 6,237
rayray 66th with 4,056

earl monroe and rod strickland took more FT than ray
mitch richmond and world b free made more

only 4 SGs made/att more FT than reggie

jordan - west - kobe - iverson

.

.

look at the awful sonics team he took to the playoffs

ok

RAY 50+ wins 2x

2005 SEA 52-30 ... ray avg 24 -- rashard 20 -- PGs = 10a
2001 MIL 52-30 ... ray avg 22 -- big dog 22 -- cassell 18

- POSTSEASON -

2005 beat SAC 4-1 -- SAS 2-4
2001 beat ORL 3-1 -- CHA 4-3 -- PHI 3-4

led team to ECF once

.

.

REGGIE 50+ wins 4x

58-24 in 98 --- reggie avg 19 -- smits 16
56-26 in 00 --- reggie avg 18 -- j rose 18
52-30 in 95 --- reggie avg 19 -- smits 18
52-30 in 96 --- reggie avg 21 -- smits 18

- POSTSEASON -

1998 beat CLE 3-1 -- NYK 4-1 -- CHI 3-4

2000 beat MIL 3-2 -- PHI 4-2 --- NYK 4-2 -- LAL 2-4

1995 beat ATL 3-0 -- NYK 4-3 -- ORL 3-4

1996 lost ATL 2-3 - - broken eye socket had 29p in G5

led team to ECF 3 times - NBA FINALS once


ray's first 11 years

won less than 40 games 6 times

reggie's first 13 years

won less than 40 games 3 times

[D.J.]

Nash being above Drexler and Payton. :facepalm

[aau]

Ray's 4 Years in BOS

2008 - 3rd leading scorer RS & PS

2009 - 2nd leading scorer RS & PS

2010 - 2nd leading scorer RS & PS

2011 - 2nd leading scorer RS & PS

so

the one year they won the title

he was the 3rd leading scorer

not sure he's apart of tri-kick title

seeing that rondo was more impactful

[Kblaze8855]

I think im gonna do the forwards now since goat is nowhere to be seen. But im tbhinking of a way to rank the initial list without counting lists of 25 guys you all rank.

[Legends66NBA7]

I think im gonna do the forwards now since goat is nowhere to be seen. But im tbhinking of a way to rank the initial list without counting lists of 25 guys you all rank.

Sounds cool.

Will there be more people added to the list for voting purposes ?

If so, I would put my name in that hat.

[Kblaze8855]

How would using the forwards from the ish top 100 work? Just the top25 ranked forwards from it. Id just have to work up a way to include the guys to rise in the ranks since 07 like durant and lebron who would throw everything off.

[Kblaze8855]

Im not against more voters.

[PowerGlove]

I think im gonna do the forwards now since goat is nowhere to be seen. But im tbhinking of a way to rank the initial list without counting lists of 25 guys you all rank.
Let me get in this one as a voter.

[aau]

gets even better for rayray

during their title year rondo led him in

reb - asst - stls and blocks

both RS and PS

[King24]

Top 25
------------
#25 Joe Dumars
#24 Earl Monroe
#23 Tracy McGrady
#22 Tiny Archibald
#21 Dennis Johnson
#20 Reggie Miller
#19 Ray Allen
#18 Sam Jones
#17 Hal Greer
#16 George Gervin
#15 Allen Iverson
#14 Gary Payton
#13 Clyde Drexler
#12 Steve Nash
#11 Jason Kidd
#10 John Stockton
#9 Walt Frazier
#8 Dwyane Wade
#7 Bob Cousy
#6 Isiah Thomas
#5 Oscar Robertson
#4 Jerry West
#3 Kobe Bryant
#2 Magic Johnson
#1 Michael Jordan.

.
Kidd/Stockton/Frazier/Cousy ahead of Nash. :facepalm

Dennis Johnson ahead of T-Mac. :facepalm

Cousy ahead of Wade. :facepalm

So much fail. :facepalm

[aau]

ok

last one before ban


Not too dissimilar to the rankings on my blog (which are a compilation of well-respected publications' rankings): http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html

Red = ISH ranks them lower than average
Black = ISH ranks them the same as average
Green = ISH ranks them higher than average

Basketball Journalist's Top 25 Guards

#25 Bill Sharman (ISH = NR)
#24 Lenny Wilkens (ISH = NR)
#23 Reggie Miller (ISH = 20th)
#22 Hal Greer (ISH = 17th)
#21 Dennis Johnson (ISH = 21st)
#20 Pete Maravich (ISH = NR)
#19 Sam Jones (ISH = 18th)
#18 Earl Monroe (ISH = 24th)
#17 Tiny Archibald (ISH = 22nd)
#16 Steve Nash (ISH = 12th)
#15 Clyde Drexler (ISH = 13th)
#14 Gary Payton (ISH = 14th)
#13 George Gervin (ISH = 16th)
#12 Allen Iverson (ISH = 15th)
#11 Jason Kidd (ISH = 11th)
#10 Dwyane Wade (ISH = 8th)
#9 Walt Frazier (ISH = 9th)
#8 John Stockton (ISH = 10th)
#7 Bob Cousy (ISH = 7th)
#6 Isiah Thomas (ISH = 6th)
#5 Jerry West (ISH = 4th)
#4 Kobe Bryant (ISH = 3rd)
#3 Oscar Robertson (ISH = 5th)
#2 Magic Johnson (ISH = 2nd)
#1 Michael Jordan (ISH = 1st)

.

ray allen behind

bill sharmin and lenny wilkens

[MasterDurant24]

Kidd/Stockton/Frazier/Cousy ahead of Nash. :facepalm

Dennis Johnson ahead of T-Mac. :facepalm

Cousy ahead of Wade. :facepalm

So much fail. :facepalm

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Frazier and Stockton >>> Nash

Kidd > Nash

[Boston C's]

ok

last one before ban



.

ray allen behind

bill sharmin and lenny wilkens

your taking another opinion poll to prove a point :facepalm ... also thats honestly just a hater comment if your saying rondo was more impactful the allen in the title run... it wasnt even close... ray was arguably the most important player in the finals for the 08 team (consensus is pierce thats why i say arguably) and you sit here and wanna feed b.s that rondo was more impactful... stop reachin for reggie the torch is passed ray passed him already and hopefully one day he passes it to the next great shooter that can beat his career as a top ten shooting guard in NBA HISTORY out

[NugzHeat3]

Im not against more voters.
So you want to increase the number of mindless idiots for the next project?

That seems like a smart thing to do.

[Dave3]

So you want to increase the number of mindless idiots for the next project?

That seems like a smart thing to do.
What's the difference betwen taking a poll from 5 dumb people + 2 smart people vs. 20 dumb people + 8 smart people?

I actually think we should have rules on who can vote or not. Kind of like they do with jury duty where a poster has to have a certain reputation as decided by whoever is making the poll. Will limit the pauk/alphawolf/jacks3 power on a thread. I can see LeBron making it to 2nd best forward of all time if enough fans come in. I can also seeing him drop to like 15th if enough haters come in.

[Jacks3]

lol Dave. Fukking moron.

[NugzHeat3]

What's the difference betwen taking a poll from 5 dumb people + 2 smart people vs. 20 dumb people + 8 smart people?

I actually think we should have rules on who can vote or not. Kind of like they do with jury duty where a poster has to have a certain reputation as decided by whoever is making the poll. Will limit the pauk/alphawolf/jacks3 power on a thread. I can see LeBron making it to 2nd best forward of all time if enough fans come in. I can also seeing him drop to like 15th if enough haters come in.
Half the voters from the guards project just dropped a name and barely contributed anything. It kind of makes it pointless and no different than a random thread asking to compare players. What makes you think any of the new voters aren't going to do the same?

A group type of project should spark some sort of discussion that people could learn from and then come to a conclusion. Otherwise its no different than the rest of the garbage comparison threads you see on here.

There were also trolls that kept ruining threads and there's nothing that can be done to prevent them from posting. The project just loses credibility.

[Legends66NBA7]

So you want to increase the number of mindless idiots for the next project?

That seems like a smart thing to do.

We can always ask consensus on this project to see who qualifies as a quality poster.

Power Glove and Dave3 would be solid additions. I've thrown my name as well, but I haven't posted here long enough to know if I qualify to this project or not...

[Da Heroic One]

Kblaze, start the forwards now. This is ThaSwagg3r so I'm still on here, I just deactivated my account.

Keep the same voters, well take out that Big164 guy or whatever. Keep everyone else. If I had to recommend a poster to add, add catch24. Nobody else should really get in, not that mindless idiot Dave3, definitely not Jacks3, and certainly not pauk or AlphaWolf.

[Da Heroic One]

We can always ask consensus on this project to see who qualifies as a quality poster.

Power Glove and Dave3 would be solid additions. I've thrown my name as well, but I haven't posted here long enough to know if I qualify to this project or not...
Neither, but If I had to pick one, PowerGlove even though he is no bright light bulb either.

[Dave3]

Half the voters from the guards project just dropped a name and barely contributed anything. It kind of makes it pointless and no different than a random thread asking to compare players. What makes you think any of the new voters aren't going to do the same?

A group type of project should spark some sort of discussion that people could learn from and then come to a conclusion. Otherwise its no different than the rest of the garbage comparison threads you see on here.

There were also trolls that kept ruining threads and there's nothing that can be done to prevent them from posting. The project just loses credibility.
If you limit the voters to ones deemed credible by the majority, then it'll be fine. Unless it's a very obvious question ie: Duncan vs. Webber, you know a good poster is going to give you a good explanation.

[Da Heroic One]

How would using the forwards from the ish top 100 work? Just the top25 ranked forwards from it. Id just have to work up a way to include the guys to rise in the ranks since 07 like durant and lebron who would throw everything off.
We should start with #1 and go down, that's what the other sites do.

[Legends66NBA7]

Kblaze, start the forwards now. This is ThaSwagg3r so I'm still on here, I just deactivated my account.

Keep the same voters, well take out that Big164 guy or whatever. Keep everyone else. If I had to recommend a poster to add, add catch24. Nobody else should really get in, not that mindless idiot Dave3, definitely not Jacks3, and certainly not pauk or AlphaWolf.

Yeah, i forgot to mention catch. He would be good as well. Don't know what's wrong with Dave3, but I see you both have a problem with each other.

That's not a reason not to add him.

[Da Heroic One]

L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r/Da Heroic One
Rose
WillC
G.O.A.T
1987 Lakers
neyca
Toizumi
Shaqattack3234
Magnax1
RobertdeMeijer
nycelt84
KGMN
SteveNashMVPcro

Crossover (added after initial vote)
bizil (added after initial vote)
Boston C's (added at #20)
Gotterdammerung (added at #17)
SuperPippen (added at #14)
Big164 (added at #13)
Droid101 (added at #11)
D.J. (added at #11)
Miller for 3 (added at #10)
Odinn (added at #9)
OmniStrife (added at #9)
HylianNightmare (added at #9)
Pushxx (added at #9)
MasterDurant24 (added at #9)
Clippersfan86 (added at #9)

ThaRegul8r (contributor)
NugzHeat3 (contributor)
Psileas (contributor)
Kblaze8855 (contributor)
alexandreben (contributor)
EricForman (contributor)

[Da Heroic One]

I think im gonna do the forwards now since goat is nowhere to be seen. But im tbhinking of a way to rank the initial list without counting lists of 25 guys you all rank.
I'll start it if you don't want to and I already know how to. Plus you have a thread to respond to. :D

[PowerGlove]

Neither, but If I had to pick one, PowerGlove even though he is no bright light bulb either.
Hi RG.

[Da Heroic One]

Hi RG.
Wade > LeBron, u still going through your period? :oldlol:

Don't worry I would compare how smart you were right now to what I was when I was 14. I don't think you're dumber than any other version of myself though.

[Kblaze8855]

I feel Goat had the right idea building to #1 because it gives better momentum and probably leads to better discussions. If it starts Bird vs Duncan and end up...Alex english vs Webber(just examples) guys dont really have a chance to just move up its more just posting the best player you feel isnt ranked yet and it would be 4-5 people being argued for at once. Not as organized at all. However....

I have an issue with my plan too. I counted 33 forwards on the top 100 list. Good list of guys. But there is no Melo, Durant, or Lebron and im sure at least 1 of them and likely 2 get int othe top 25. And if I just throw them on the bottom the first 10 votes will be Lebron crushing ____ till he gets up near the top flight guys and who wants 30 days of why Lebron is or isnt better than ____?

Starting to think GOAT had the right idea. I may post a list of 35 forwards and have 5-6 people give quick rankings and work off the resulting list. No other good way to do it. I just need a few people who wouldnt mind the effort needed. If you take the time I guess I can take the time to count it up.

Then with the 10 that dont make it out of the 35 we can start by voting which 2 of them should be added to the official voting. One will face the other and the winner faces #25 and so on.

Sound fair?

[Da Heroic One]

I feel Goat had the right idea building to #1 because it gives better momentum and probably leads to better discussions. If it starts Bird vs Duncan and end up...Alex english vs Webber(just examples) guys dont really have a chance to just move up its more just posting the best player you feel isnt ranked yet and it would be 4-5 people being argued for at once. Not as organized at all. However....

I have an issue with my plan too. I counted 33 forwards on the top 100 list. Good list of guys. But there is no Melo, Durant, or Lebron and im sure at least 1 of them and likely 2 get int othe top 25. And if I just throw them on the bottom the first 10 votes will be Lebron crushing ____ till he gets up near the top flight guys and who wants 30 days of why Lebron is or isnt better than ____?

Starting to think GOAT had the right idea. I may post a list of 35 forwards and have 5-6 people give quick rankings and work off the resulting list. No other good way to do it. I just need a few people who wouldnt mind the effort needed. If you take the time I guess I can take the time to count it up.

Then with the 10 that dont make it out of the 35 we can start by voting which 2 of them should be added to the official voting. One will face the other and the winner faces #25 and so on.

Sound fair?
Pretty much the same way GOAT ran it.

I don't know about 35 players that would take a while. We should just leave it at 25-30 and rank 25 forwards. He used a point system for every ranking, I think #1 = 25 points, #2 = 24 points, and so on.

I think we should just continue doing what GOAT did.

[Legends66NBA7]

Sound fair?

If G.O.A.T. wanted it that way, I think it's fair to stay that course.

[Da Heroic One]

If G.O.A.T. wanted it that way, I think it's fair to stay that course.
Yeah, Kblaze start up a thread of the rankings of the top 25 forwards. Continue having the same voters as last time except add catch24 if he wants in, he wanted in last time and he is one of the better posters on this site.

[Da Heroic One]

Kblaze, do you have the time to run through all of this including counting the votes and crap? I can do the vote counting for the rankings and such since I do have a decent amount of time this week, not sure how much time you have, but anyways I could start up the thread if you would like, just copy the same format as G.O.A.T. did, same posters as last time, same everything.

[PowerGlove]

Wade > LeBron, u still going through your period? :oldlol:

Don't worry I would compare how smart you were right now to what I was when I was 14. I don't think you're dumber than any other version of myself though.

When I was 14 I had friends.

[Legends66NBA7]

Hmmm... looks like I'm out.

[Kblaze8855]

Hmmm... looks like I'm out.

Nobody is out at the moment. we will work out a system for the voters.

[Legends66NBA7]

Nobody is out at the moment. we will work out a system for the voters.

I see. That would be similar to the guards project, where voters were added to the list. Thus, staying the course.

[Da Heroic One]

Hmmm... looks like I'm out.
I would add you if you wanted in, didn't know you want in.

You and catch24 should be the replacements.

[Dave3]

Nobody is out at the moment. we will work out a system for the voters.
Let me know when you plan on deciding the voters. I'm interested to get in on this.

[Reggie43]

I stand corrected there... and from individual matchups you act like reggie dominated every game he and ray played against... there were games ray outplayed him... if you wanna completely ignore my points then thats your problem... but any basketball fan that knows anything knows that ray allen has surpassed reggie miller in his career it was set in stone when he broke his 3 point record this yr because that was the only thing that reggie had on him and with that gone he has nothing over ray at all... rings check... accolades check... records check... everything else check... again i love reggie and am a huge fan i just dont see the case for him being over ray when ray has surpassed him in literally every statistical category... you have your opinion and i have mine i guess

Did I say he dominated? I just said he was outperformed significantly over a course of 33 games head to head.

Which points are you talking about? That because Ray was 2 pts, 1.3 rebs and .6 assists better on lower percentages it shouldnt even be debatable?

I agree he surpassed Reggie careerwise because of the ring but where talking about who the better player was and its just too funny how you describe Ray as if the gap between him and Miller is too large to argue.

I really wont mind if someone said they would pick Ray over Reggie.
What irritates me is how some people claim that Ray was better at about everything Reggie did and how he was so much better as you say.

I agree that Ray was the more versatile scorer, ballhandler, slasher, the more complete player but still I have seen Reggie outperform Ray too many times in the regular season and the playoffs to know who the better player was and this would be very obvious to anyone who saw those head to head matchups

I guess I cant really change your opinion of how Ray was better at everything Miller did including all the intangibles that he had as you claim so I guess we should agree to disagree :cheers:

[Legends66NBA7]

I would add you if you wanted in, didn't know you want in.

You and catch24 should be the replacements.

I told it to Kblaze, that I would put my name in the hat for new voters.

[Boston C's]

Did I say he dominated? I just said he was outperformed significantly over a course of 33 games head to head.

Which points are you talking about? That because Ray was 2 pts, 1.3 rebs and .6 assists better on lower percentages it shouldnt even be debatable?

I agree he surpassed Reggie careerwise because of the ring but where talking about who the better player was and its just too funny how you describe Ray as if the gap between him and Miller is too large to argue.

I really wont mind if someone said they would pick Ray over Reggie.
What irritates me is how some people claim that Ray was better at about everything Reggie did and how he was so much better as you say.

I agree that Ray was the more versatile scorer, ballhandler, slasher, the more complete player but still I have seen Reggie outperform Ray too many times in the regular season and the playoffs to know who the better player was and this would be very obvious to anyone who saw those head to head matchups

I guess I cant really change your opinion of how Ray was better at everything Miller did including all the intangibles that he had as you claim so I guess we should agree to disagree :cheers:

I respect your opinion... and I may have sounded like I thought ray was miles better to which hes not... I do think ray was the better player but the gap isnt large as you say... I respect your opinion on the subject and you have made some valid points if you feel reggie is better then that is your opinion its not blasphemy for us to disagree lol ... i wont bash you like an immature idiot like most posters would if it were like a kobe vs magic debate etc... but we'll just agree to disagree as you said... good healthy debate :cheers:

[Boston C's]

btw just wanna clarify that as far as intangibles go reg43... reggie has the edge all i was saying is that ray is a clutch player in his own right

[Reggie43]

I respect your opinion... and I may have sounded like I thought ray was miles better to which hes not... I do think ray was the better player but the gap isnt large as you say... I respect your opinion on the subject and you have made some valid points if you feel reggie is better then that is your opinion its not blasphemy for us to disagree lol ... i wont bash you like an immature idiot like most posters would if it were like a kobe vs magic debate etc... but we'll just agree to disagree as you said... good healthy debate :cheers:

Its all good then :D

[Simple Jack]

I'd love to get in the voting as well. There should be some type of requirement for votes that actually count; like some sort of reasoning that somewhat coherent rather than just dropping names with smileys.

[aau]

your taking another opinion poll to prove a point :facepalm ... also thats honestly just a hater comment if your saying rondo was more impactful the allen in the title run... it wasnt even close... ray was arguably the most important player in the finals for the 08 team (consensus is pierce thats why i say arguably) and you sit here and wanna feed b.s that rondo was more impactful... stop reachin for reggie the torch is passed ray passed him already and hopefully one day he passes it to the next great shooter that can beat his career as a top ten shooting guard in NBA HISTORY out

.

you couldn't be further from the truth

that poll is no different than the things you've
been saying . . . it's your opinion that ray
is better . . . it's their opinion that ray
ranks behind sharman and wilkens

i just found it interesting that when debating the
two you've suggested that it's not even close
whereas this group feels totally different

idc who it is if it weren't close as you suggest then
nobody not even middle schoolers would ever
put reggie over ray let alone bill n lenny

.

just because i think reggie is the better player
doesn't mean that i hate ray allen
not even close

what i hate is when youngsters are misled , and yes
i do believe rondo's impact was greater than ray's
he led him in all categories but points . . . well
3 more buckets doesn't make up for grabbing
less reb asst steals and blks than the PG
who's the leader & primary ballhandler

.

lastly

i think ray played exceptionally well during the finals

doesn't change my argument for reggie one iota

but i'm sure you'll chalk that up to me just

hating