InsideHoops Top 25 NBA Forwards. Initial voting.

[Kblaze8855]

People were wondering when it started and GOAT is nowhere to be seen so here it is. after trying to figure out a better way to get the list we work off of ive decided GOAT had it pretty much right to begin with. Basic plan...


For the few of you who wont mind the effort...take a moment and rank your top 25 forwards ever.

When I get to 10 lists(or whatever number we have when it seems people arent gonna continue) ill assign 25 points for a #1 24 for a #2 and on down the line and add it up to make our top 25 and start the voting to get the final order.

Ive given you 50 players to consider. Only players with 3 or more years in the league.

After we pick the 25 I may then go a quick vote to see which of the 25 to miss out most deserve to make it and the top 2 will face eachother then the winner faces #25 and so on. Kinda like the 65th team in the NCAA tournament.

50 players to work with. Want to rank anyone top 25 not on this list feel free. This is just some people you shouldnt forget:


Carmelo Anthony
Mark Aguirre
Adrian Dantley
Bobby Jones
Tom Chambers
George McGinnis
Joe Fulks
Kemp
Grant Hill
Chris Mullin
Larry Bird
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Julius Erving
Elgin Baylor
Bob Pettit
John Havlicek
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Kevin Durant
Rick Barry
Scottie Pippen
Elvin Hayes
Kevin Garnett
Kevin McHale
Gus Johnson
Buck Williams
Maurice Lucas
Dolph Schayes
Dominique Wilkins
Dennis Rodman
Dirk Nowitzki
Billy Cunningham
Bernard King
Alex English
James Worthy
Jamal Mashburn
Glen Rice
Marques Johnson
Truck Robinson
Paul Arizin
Dave DeBusschere
Terry cummings
George Yardley
Pau Gasol
Jermaine Oneal
Spencer Haywood
Paul Pierce
Connie Hawkins
Chris Webber
Shawn Marion



Amare and Mcadoo ive listed as centers since its where htey have been on all nba teams. I know Webber was one briefly on the Warriors and Gasol and Duncan will cause arguments but...whatever.


And for the love of whatever being you feel may have placed us here lets not have arguments in this topic. If you feel someone has Lebron, or Bird, or Barkley too high or too low we will work it out in the final voting. We dont need sircharles in here with a 4400 word post of colored words and PER or one of the lebron people going off about...whatever. Lets just keep it simple.

Anyone who wants to make a list may make one. If its a clear joke list it wont be counted of course. But anyone putting in the effort will be counted. Afterall its just to get the first 25. If someone puts Durant first its not gonna stand when we count up all the votes and he wont be there when the voting is done.

So...whatever. Rank away.

[L.Kizzle]

I'm down, but Kevin Durant should not be here for the same reason Derrick Rose wasn't in the guard thread. Truck Robinson needs to go too.


Also add:
Gus Johnson
Rudy T
Cliff Hagan
Baily Howell
Bob Dandridge
Bobby Jones
Tom Chambers

[DaPerceive]

Is anyone allowed to vote?? I could be a good contributor for this so I would like get involved if you wouldn't mind.

Also, I feel like we should allow Amare and Mcadoo in this. I am not sure if they will make the top 25 though, but they should be allowed at the least.

[Kblaze8855]

For people thinking it will take too long...try this:

Take off the players you know you dont want. The guys who stand out as undeserving.

I did that and was left with 36.

I then put aside the 10 best I saw. The sure to make it guys

Then I had the top 10 and only 26 left. And I only needed 15 of those 26.

Removed the worst 10 I saw and I was down to 16

My top 10 and bottom 16.

I ranked the top 10 quickly then took a moment to do the bottom 16. Then removed the worst player I saw.

It wont take you 5 minutes if you dont beat yourself up too much and just see it for what it is. A list that doesnt need to be perfect.

[Kblaze8855]

Yes at this stage anyone can make a list.I'll work out the final voters later. Im not gonna kick anyone for just being new or unknown. I think its easy to spot people who are just being *****. Long as a person explains why I have no trouble counting an unknown persons vote. I think 20 voters would be fine. And if someone doesnt vote in 3 straight votes he loses the spot and anyone else can have it. Sounds right?




Also add:
Gus Johnson
Rudy T
Cliff Hagan
Baily Howell
Bob Dandridge
Bobby Jones
Tom Chambers

3 of them are on my list. And as I said its just some guys to think about so nobody srtuggles getting the 25.

[L.Kizzle]

Yes at this stage anyone can make a list.I'll work out the final voters later. Im not gonna kick anyone for just being new or unknown. I think its easy to spot people who are just being *****. Long as a person explains why I have no trouble counting an unknown persons vote. I think 20 voters would be fine. And if someone doesnt vote in 3 straight votes he loses the spot and anyone else can have it. Sounds right?





3 of them are on my list. And as I said its just some guys to think about so nobody srtuggles getting the 25.
Oh ok, not tryin' to be an ass, but they weren't in alphabetical order so it was hard skimming through the names.

[Kblaze8855]

No problem. I threw most of it together off the top of my head then looked at a top 100 list to make sure I missed nobody major. I wouldnt be upset seeing someone not in my 50 make the top 25. I just find it unlikely.

As for Durant...what was the rule?

5 years in and not 3?

[Gotterdammerung]

Forwards
1. Duncan
2. Bird
3. Malone
4. Havlicek
5. Pettit
6. Pippen
7. James
8. Dr. J
9. Barkley
10. Barry
11. KG
12. Baylor
13. McHale
14. Hayes
15. Lucas
16. Wilkins
17. Rodman
18. King
19. Nowitzski
20. Pierce
21. Cunningham
22. Dantley
23. Kemp
24. Gus
25. Gasol

[L.Kizzle]

No problem. I threw most of it together off the top of my head then looked at a top 100 list to make sure I missed nobody major. I wouldnt be upset seeing someone not in my 50 make the top 25. I just find it unlikely.

As for Durant...what was the rule?

5 years in and not 3?
5 I think.

Also, if the votes were PM to you it would be much better instead of seeing who everyone voted for.

In the guards, we knew who was coming up cause GOAT posted the list. It would be more of an anticipation if we were surprised who the winner of #17 was goin against instead of already knowing.

Just throwing that out there.

[DaPerceive]

Forwards
1. Duncan
2. Bird
3. Malone
4. Havlicek
5. Pettit
6. Pippen
7. James
8. Dr. J
9. Barkley
10. Barry
11. KG
12. Baylor
13. McHale
14. Cunningham
15. Lucas
16. Wilkins
17. Rodman
18. King
19. Dantley
20. Anthony
21. Gus
22. Jones
23. Kemp
24. English
25. Gasol
So neither Pierce or Dirk are top 25 forwards? :hammerhead:

[Maniak]

I'll chip in my opinion when this gets going.

[SuperPippen]

Forwards
1. Duncan
2. Bird
3. Malone
4. Havlicek
5. Pettit
6. Pippen
7. James
8. Dr. J
9. Barkley
10. Barry
11. KG
12. Baylor
13. McHale
14. Cunningham
15. Lucas
16. Wilkins
17. Rodman
18. King
19. Dantley
20. Anthony
21. Gus
22. Jones
23. Kemp
24. English
25. Gasol

Weird list.

Elgin, KG, and Dr. J so low? Pippen (I love him, but I don't think was good enough to be considered the 6th greatest forward ever), Pippen, Havlicek, and Malone so high? Duncan above Bird? No Dirk?

Would you care to do me a favor and back up your opinions? I'd just like to gain some insight into how you made your decisions.

[Gotterdammerung]

So neither Pierce or Dirk are top 25 forwards? :hammerhead:
:banghead:
Forgot about those two. Fixed. Thanks.

[Miller for 3]

something like this (kind of in order)

Bird
Duncan
Erving
K Malone
Garnett
Barkley
Nowitzki
Baylor
Lebron
Pettit
Havlichek
Pippen
Barry
Hayes
McHale
King
Pierce
Wilkins
Schayes
Arizin
Hill
Worthy
English
Webber
Rodman

[Gotterdammerung]

Weird list.

Elgin, KG, and Dr. J so low? Pippen (I love him, but I don't think was good enough to be considered the 6th greatest forward ever), Pippen, Havlicek, and Malone so high? Duncan above Bird? No Dirk?

Would you care to do me a favor and back up your opinions? I'd just like to gain some insight into how you made your decisions.
I'll explain my reasons when we get into each player.

I don't rank according to consensus or NBA 2k logic for what it's worth.

Neglected PP and Dirk so I fixed it. :facepalm:

[Jacks3]

Shouldn't u guys set some sort of criteria? Like are you emphasizing by peak/prime play and longevity? Or accolades/accomplishments/team success?

I presume it's a combination of both, but I think it would be better if everybody came to a agreement on whether to focus more on actual ability or just legacy.

Otherwise you'll guys like Cousy finishing above clearly superior players...again.

[SuperPippen]

I'll explain my reasons when we get into each player.

I don't rank according to consensus or NBA 2k logic for what it's worth.

Neglected PP and Dirk so I fixed it. :facepalm:

NBA 2K logic? You mean "statistics over intangibles" logic, or something like that?


If so, I'm guessing you're not going to rank Wilt too highly when we do the centers list.

[SuperPippen]

Shouldn't u guys set some sort of criteria? Like are you emphasizing by peak/prime play and longevity? Or accolades/accomplishments/team success?

I presume it's a combination of both, but I think it would be better if everybody came to a agreement on whether to focus more on actual ability or just legacy.

Otherwise you'll guys like Cousy finishing above clearly superior players...again.

It's a consensus list. Everyone is free to base their decisions off of their own criteria, whether they weigh peak play over than longevity, statistics over team success, the importance of championships, etc.

[Kblaze8855]

5 I think.

Also, if the votes were PM to you it would be much better instead of seeing who everyone voted for.

In the guards, we knew who was coming up cause GOAT posted the list. It would be more of an anticipation if we were surprised who the winner of #17 was goin against instead of already knowing.

Just throwing that out there.

I actually thought about that. But unless you go through and do the math nobody but me would know the order. I cant see many doing the adding up.

[L.Kizzle]

I actually thought about that. But unless you go through and do the math nobody but me would know the order. I cant see many doing the adding up.
That's the whole point.

[Gotterdammerung]

NBA 2K logic? You mean "statistics over intangibles" logic, or something like that?
No I said "2k logic." The rationale that explains why Lebron James has a higher player rating than Kobe Bryant.

[DaPerceive]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Larry Bird
3. Julius Erving
4. Bob Pettit
5. Karl Malone
6. Charles Barkley
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Kevin Garnett
9. LeBron James
10. John Havlicek
11. Scottie Pippen
12. Rick Barry
13. Elgin Baylor
14. Kevin McHale
15. James Worthy
16. Elvin Hayes
17. Paul Pierce
18. Dominique Wilkins
19. Kevin Durant
20. Dave DeBusschere
21. Dennis Rodman
22. Pau Gasol
23. Paul Arizin
24. Chris Webber
25. Dolph Schayes

It is really hard for me to make a comment on those pre 80s/merger players other than Hondo, Baylor, Hayes and Pettit.

If anyone wants to question my list or why I have Player A over Player B feel free and I'll give you my reasons. I would be really surprised if I didn't contradict my logic in my list at some point.

Anyways, after Durant at 19 it became really tough because I started factoring players from every era including the 50s, 60s, 70s; eras that I am not too familiar with. I mean, I don't think it would be fair and fair to the all-time greats that I don't even put them on there just because I don't know too much about them.

[Kblaze8855]

Wait you want to know the voting order or not? Its unclear. If not.....cant youjust not do the math? Or i could use 3 methods to make the final list. One third ish now one third ish top 100 rankings just using the forwards and an unknown third list i have but wont share(could be mine or slams or hof monitor ratings....only id know). I could keep the final 25 quiet enough if people want it that way

[L.Kizzle]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Larry Bird
3. Julius Erving
4. Bob Pettit
5. Karl Malone
6. Charles Barkley
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Kevin Garnett
9. LeBron James
10. John Havlicek
11. Scottie Pippen
12. Rick Barry
13. Elgin Baylor
14. Kevin McHale
15. James Worthy
16. Elvin Hayes
17. Paul Pierce
18. Dominique Wilkins
19. Kevin Durant
20. Dave DeBusschere
21. Dennis Rodman
22. Pau Gasol
23. Paul Arizin
24. Chris Webber
25. Dolph Schayes

It is really hard for me to make a comment on those pre 80s/merger players other than Hondo, Baylor, Hayes and Pettit.

If anyone wants to question my list feel free and I'll list you my reasons. I would be really surprised if I didn't contradict my logic here.

Anyways, after Durant at 19 it became really tough because I started factoring players from every era including the 50s, 60s, 70s; eras that I am not too familiar with. I mean, I don't think it would be fair and fair to the all-time greats that I don't even put them on there just because I don't know a thing about them.
It's no world that Pau Gasol is better than Chris Webber.

[SuperPippen]

No I said "2k logic." The rationale that explains why Lebron James has a higher player rating than Kobe Bryant.

Not quite sure I'm understanding you, but I guess we'll leave that to the player vs. player threads.

[magnax1]

1-Bird
2-KG
3-Duncan
4-Pettit
5-Baylor
6-Barry
7-Erving
8-Barkley
9-Malone
10-Lebron
11-Havlicek
12-Dirk
13-Arizin
14-Hayes
15-McHales
16-Schayes
17-Rodman
18-Dantley
20-Wilkins
21-English
22-Webber
23-Carmelo
24-King
25-Debusherre
That's just my rough draft. I'll think about it a bit, and change it tomorrow. It's probably got some weird stuff going on since I did it in like 1 minutes.

[Kblaze8855]

Dont worry about changing it. Its supposed to be a rough draft. Im getting enough of them to do it tonight. Ish votes will be half the points and half will come from a process ill keep to myself for now. It wont just be my list though. Ill do all the math tonight and post the first poll soon

[DaPerceive]

It's no world that Pau Gasol is better than Chris Webber.
I don't think very highly of Webber. I do understand the argument for Webber over Gasol; I just don't agree with it. I don't think either one of those guys could have won as the #1 guy on their team. I saw everything I needed to see in Game 7 of the 2002 WCF. That being I said I don't think Webber would have been as good of a 2nd option as Gasol was in '09 and '10 either. You could argue that Gasol should have been the 2010 Finals MVP instead of Kobe Bryant. Not an argument I would agree with, but an argument that I would understand.

[magnax1]

Since we're already kind of on the topic, Something I never understood is why people are so critical of Dantley? I get he had his flaws, but it seems that there are lots of players with similar flaws that don't get nearly as much flack for it.

[Legends66NBA7]

Top 25 Forwards (rough list):

1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan
3. Karl Malone
4. John Havlicek
5. Julius Erving
6. Charles Barkley
7. Bob Pettit
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Kevin Garnett
10. Elgin Baylor
11. Scottie Pippen
12. Rick Barry
13. LeBron James
14. Kevin McHale
15. James Worthy
16. Elvin Hayes
17. Dominique Wilkins
18. Dolph Schayes
19. Paul Arizin
20. Dennis Rodman
21. Dave DeBusschere
22. Pau Gasol
23. Bernard King
24. Adrian Dantley
25. Alex English

[L.Kizzle]

Here go my Top 25.


1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan
3. Elgin Baylor
4. Julius Erving
5. Bob Pettit
6. John Havlicek
7. Karl Malone
8. Charles Barkley
9. Rick Barry
10. Kevin Garnett
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. Scottie Pippen
13. Elvin Hayes
14. LeBron James
15. Dolph Schayes
16. Billy Cunningham
17. Jerry Lucas
18. Kevin McHale
19. Paul Arizin
20. Dennis Rodman
20. James Worthy
21. Dominique Wilkins
22. Bernard King
23. Gus Johnson
24. Chris Webber
25. Dave DeBusschere

Almost made the cut: Alex English, Paul Pierce, Adrian Dantley, Joe Fulks, Grant Hill.

[G-train]

1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan
3. Julius Erving
4. Lebron James
5. John Havlicek
6. Elgin Baylor
7. Karl Malone
8. Scottie Pippen
9. Charles Barkley
10 .Kevin Garnett
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. Rick Barry
13. Bob Pettit
14. Kevin McHale
15. Elvin Hayes
16. Dennis Rodman
17. Dominique Wilkins
18. Paul Pierce
19. Carmelo Anthony
20. Adrian Dantley
21. Chris Mullin
22. Mark Aguirre
23. Bobby Jones
24. Alex English
25. Chris Webber

Rough as guts and probably out of order and missing older players but whatever.

[DaPerceive]

Here go my Top 25.


1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan
3. Elgin Baylor
4. Julius Erving
5. Bob Pettit
6. John Havlicek
7. Karl Malone
8. Charles Barkley
9. Rick Barry
10. Kevin Garnett
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. Scottie Pippen
13. Elvin Hayes
14. LeBron James
15. Dolph Schayes
16. Billy Cunningham
17. Jerry Lucas
18. Kevin McHale
19. Paul Arizin
20. Dennis Rodman
20. James Worthy
21. Dominique Wilkins
22. Bernard King
23. Gus Johnson
24. Chris Webber
25. Dave DeBusschere

Almost made the cut: Alex English, Paul Pierce, Adrian Dantley, Joe Fulks, Grant Hill.
Care to explain why....

-Pierce missed the top 25 list
-Baylor is #3 and is the 2nd greatest SF to you
-Pippen being ahead of LeBron when Baylor is listed at #3
-Bernard King is even on the list, (I really like King btw but his career and his accomplishments was cut short by injuries)

Your list does not seem to have much consistency with your values.

[Gotterdammerung]

Since we're already kind of on the topic, Something I never understood is why people are so critical of Dantley? I get he had his flaws, but it seems that there are lots of players with similar flaws that don't get nearly as much flack for it.

Despite the numbers Dantley being traded was the best thing that happened to the pistons winning their first title.

[L.Kizzle]

Care to explain why....

-Pierce missed the top 25 list
-Baylor is #3 and is the 2nd greatest SF to you
-Pippen being ahead of LeBron when Baylor is listed at #3
-Bernard King is even on the list, (I really like King btw but his career and his accomplishments was cut short by injuries)

Your list does not seem to have much consistency with your values.
Bernard King in the top 25 is no different than McGrady in the guard top 25. His career was cut short, but he was that good. 2 All-NBA 1st teams, scoring titles. More than Pierce in his longer career.

Baylor was just that damn good. People put him around the ten spot cause he didn't win a title, that's crazy. You have him 13th as a forward, most have him 13 as a player all time.

What has LeBron done to be ranked over Pippen or Baylor? I should move him over Hayes though.

[Heavincent]

1.) Bird
2.) Duncan
3.) Erving
4.) Garnett
5.) K Malone
6.) Dirk
7.) Barkley
8.) Baylor
9.) Pippen
10.) Havlichek
11.) Pettit
12.) Barry
13.) Hayes
14.) McHale
15.) King
16.) Pierce
17.) Wilkins
18.) Carmelo
19.) Hill
20.) Worthy
21.) Lebron
22.) Schayes
23.) Arizin
24.) Webber
25.) Rodman

[LBJ 4 MVP]

1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan
3. Elgin Baylor
4. Julius Erving
5. John Havlicek
6. Charles Barkley
7. Bob Pettit
8. Karl Malone
9. Rick Barry
10. LeBron James
11. Elvin Hayes
12. Dirk Nowitzki
13. Scottie Pippen
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Kevin McHale
16. Dominique Wilkins
17. Dolph Schayes
18. Billy Cunningham
19. Jerry Lucas
20. Dennis Rodman
21. Dave Debusschere
22. Paul Arizin
23. Paul Pierce
24. Spencer Haywood
25. Grant Hill

Pretty rough list. Not much revising done on it.

[Pointguard]

1 Tim Duncan
2 Larry Bird
3 Julius Erving
4 Elgin Baylor
5 Lebron James
6 Kevin Garnett
7 Bob Pettit
8 Rick Barry
9 Charles Barkley
10 Karl Malone
11 Dirk Nowitzki
12 Scottie Pippen
13 Kevin McHale
14 Elvin Hayes
15 Dominique Wilkins
16 John Havlicek
17 James Worthy
18 Bernard King
19 Dennis Rodman
20 Alex English
21 Paul Pierce
22 Chris Webber
23 Kevin Durant
24 Adrian Dantley
25 Chris Mullin

[Kblaze8855]

I have enough lists now and im counting shit up. This...will take a while.

[Kblaze8855]

Shocked to see hayes totally left off a list.

[MasterDurant24]

Duncan
Bird
Dr. J
Elgin Baylor
Malone
Barkley
Havlicek
Pettit
Rick Barry
Garnett
McHale
Nowitzki
Pippen
Hayes
Wilkins
Bernard King
James Worthy
Jerry Lucas
Cunningham
Chris Webber
Paul Pierce
Grant Hill
Adrian Dantley
Debusschere
Rodman

Last 7 is real shaky, I kept on changing their spots so really they can be put in any order.

[Fatal9]

making rough list, will probably change around a bit later...

1. Bird
2. Duncan
3. KG
4. Barkley
5. LeBron
6. Dirk
7. Malone
8. Dr. J
9. Pettit
10. Barry
11. Pippen
12. McHale
13. Baylor
14. Havlicek
15. Worthy
16. Hayes
17. Pierce
18. Dominique
19. Rodman
20. Gasol
21. Lucas
22. Webber
23. Carmelo
24. Hill
25. English

Always struggle with the 4-8 order. At about 15, gets really tough, each guys have glaring flaws...just a matter of whose you're more willing to overlook. I dunno if it's fair to put Amare at center.

[Dave3]

making rough list, will probably change around a bit later...

1. Bird
2. Duncan
3. KG
4. Barkley
5. LeBron
6. Dirk
7. Malone
8. Dr. J
9. Pettit
10. Barry
11. Pippen
12. McHale
13. Baylor
14. Havlicek
15. Worthy
16. Hayes
17. Pierce
18. Dominique
19. Rodman
20. Gasol
21. Lucas
22. Webber
23. Carmelo
24. Hill
25. English

Always struggle with the 4-8 order. At about 15, gets really tough, each guys have glaring flaws...just a matter of whose you're more willing to overlook. I dunno if it's fair to put Amare at center.
Was Baylor that bad? A lot of people have him pretty high whereas you have him much lower. All I know about him are his stats and his finals performance (which on paper looks good). Why so different?

[BallsOut]

Since when was Chris Webber a SF?

[DaPerceive]

Bernard King in the top 25 is no different than McGrady in the guard top 25. His career was cut short, but he was that good. 2 All-NBA 1st teams, scoring titles. More than Pierce in his longer career.

Baylor was just that damn good. People put him around the ten spot cause he didn't win a title, that's crazy. You have him 13th as a forward, most have him 13 as a player all time.

What has LeBron done to be ranked over Pippen or Baylor? I should move him over Hayes though.
Neither King or Tmac should be top 25. If I had to pick one it would easily be Tmac though. He dominated for a longer period of time than King did.

Actually I don't think people even have Baylor as top 20 of all-time. The general rule for me to be a top 10 player of all-time is to win a championship as the best player on the team.

Really? His 2 MVPs already do the trick. I don't like LeBron, I really don't, but he should clearly be ranked above both of those guys. I just don't understand how Baylor is the 2nd greatest SF of all-time to you and he doesn't have a ring, yet Pippen is ranked above LeBron and LeBron doesn't have a ring while Pippen has 6 of them. It is just contradicting.

Do you think Pippen would give you a better chance to win a title as the best player on your team than LeBron does?


Since when was Chris Webber a SF?
This is just forwards. It doesn't matter whether it is a Small or Power forward as long as it is a forward.

[Dave3]

Since when was Chris Webber a SF?
LMAO:oldlol: . Duncan #1 on every list (and all of the other power forwards) didn't hint to you that this is a forwards list not specifically small forwards?

[BallsOut]

LMAO:oldlol: . Duncan #1 on every list (and all of the other power forwards) didn't hint to you that this is a forwards list not specifically small forwards?

:lol

[SonOfMattGeiger]

would love to contribute in this one since i didn't with the guards. here's my list.

1. bird
2. duncan
3. havlicek
4. baylor
6. pettit
7. barkley
8. kg
9. malone
10. pip
11. james
12. dirk
13. hayes
14. mchale
15. worthy
16. schayes
17. rodman
18. king
19. wilkins
20. cunningham
21. pierce
22. english
23. dantley
24. melo
25. hill

very rough list, some may be off by a few spots and the last 5 or so can be interchanged with some players who missed the cut, but thats the basics

[Legends66NBA7]

Shocked to see hayes totally left off a list.

Wow... I know it was a rough draft and all... but how could this guy not be popped up in you're head:

The Big E started his first 12 seasons averageing a double double, 10 of them being 20+ppg/10+rpg seasons.

In his rookie season, averaged:

28.4ppg 17.1rpg 1.4apg 44.7%fg 62.6%ft (lost out to Wes Unseld, though...)

12x All-Star
6x All-NBA (3 First Team)
2x All-Defensive
68-69 All Rookie First Team

Not to mention, Hayes was an Ironman, missing only 9 out of possible 1312. Sure, he was considered a choker, but that resume cannot be left of a Top 25 Forwards list, regardless if that was a rough draft.

[L.Kizzle]

Neither King or Tmac should be top 25. If I had to pick one it would easily be Tmac though. He dominated for a longer period of time than King did.

Actually I don't think people even have Baylor as top 20 of all-time. The general rule for me to be a top 10 player of all-time is to win a championship as the best player on the team.

Really? His 2 MVPs already do the trick. I don't like LeBron, I really don't, but he should clearly be ranked above both of those guys. I just don't understand how Baylor is the 2nd greatest SF of all-time to you and he doesn't have a ring, yet Pippen is ranked above LeBron and LeBron doesn't have a ring while Pippen has 6 of them. It is just contradicting.

Do you think Pippen would give you a better chance to win a title as the best player on your team than LeBron does?


This is just forwards. It doesn't matter whether it is a Small or Power forward as long as it is a forward.
Let's see LeBron won his MVP goin up against past prime Nash, Kobe, Duncan, Dirk and pre-prime Durant and Rose. Only players in prime are Dwight, Chris Paul and Carmelo. They don't compare to Baylor's comp.

Baylor was goin against Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, Pettit and West all in their absolute primes.

Nash's 2 MVPs don't do the trick so why should LeBron's? :confusedshrug:

When LeBron drops 61 in a Finals game like Baylor come talk to me. Did he even have 61 total point this past Finals, lol.

[DaPerceive]

Let's see LeBron won his MVP goin up against past prime Nash, Kobe, Duncan, Dirk and pre-prime Durant and Rose. Only players in prime are Dwight, Chris Paul and Carmelo. They don't compare to Baylor's comp.

Baylor was goin against Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, Pettit and West all in their absolute primes.

Nash's 2 MVPs don't do the trick so why should LeBron's? :confusedshrug:

When LeBron drops 61 in a Finals game like Baylor come talk to me. Did he even have 61 total point this past Finals, lol.
Okay, now tell me why Pippen is above LeBron even though Baylor is above every SF not named Bird. I am more concerned about your choice for that than your choice of Baylor.

[L.Kizzle]

Okay, now tell me why Pippen is above LeBron even though Baylor is above every SF not named Bird. I am more concerned about your choice for that than your choice of Baylor.
Cause Pippen has completed his career. Can't put LeBron's work over Pippen just yet.

[DaPerceive]

Cause Pippen has completed his career. Can't put LeBron's work over Pippen just yet.
Let me get this straight, if LeBron James were to say......break his leg and never be able to play the game of basketball ever again, you would say Pippen would be ahead of LeBron? Is that what you're saying? That just doesn't make any sense.

[Kblaze8855]

Yea looking at some of the people who would be left off so far(im a few lists in) im really gonna have to use some other sources to avoid a lot of pissed off people. That or go with my first plan which was a quick vote of the top 10 who didnt make it to select 2 more to fit in.

[Da Heroic One]

Kizzle, who do you think is currently the best player in the NBA? Dirk, LeBron, Wade? Who you got bro?

[L.Kizzle]

Let me get this straight, if LeBron James were to say......break his leg and never be able to play the game of basketball ever again, you would say Pippen would be ahead of LeBron? Is that what you're saying? That just doesn't make any sense.
Uh yeah, this is Scottie Pippen not Mark Aguirre. Pips 15 year career > Brons 8. Its not like LeBron pulled a Duncan his frst 8 years. Duncan 3 titles, 2 MVPs, all sta every season all nba 1st teama and all d team 1st every season his first 8 years.

[magnax1]

Despite the numbers Dantley being traded was the best thing that happened to the pistons winning their first title.
That's not really fair at all. Talking about 89 Dantley is like talking about AI in Detroit. He just wasn't the same player at that point, and on top of that he was replaced by another all star (and on who could be argued to be on this top 25) in his prime.

[Kblaze8855]

Almost done and Bird and Duncan are actually tied.....

[Kblaze8855]

LIke Pistons AI?

Thats...more than a little bit much.

[iamgine]

My ranking:

1 . Tim Duncan
2 . Larry Bird
3 . LeBron James
4 . Karl Malone
5 . Charles Barkley
6 . Kevin Garnett
7 . Bob Pettit
8 . Dirk Nowitzki
9 . Elgin Baylor
10 . Dolph Schayes
11 . Julius Erving
12 . John Havlicek
13 . Rick Barry
14 . Kevin McHale
15 . Scottie Pippen
16 . Tracy McGrady
17 . Grant Hill
18 . Dominique Wilkins
19 . Elton Brand
20 . Pau Gasol
21 . Chris Webber
22 . Shawn Kemp
23 . Adrian Dantley
24 . Paul Pierce
25 . Harry Gallatin

[rhythmic]

1) Larry Bird - SF (#1)
2) Tim Duncan - PF/C (#1)
3) Julius Erving - SF (#2)
4) Karl Malone - PF (#2)
5) Elgin Baylor - SF (#3)
6) Charles Barkley - PF (#3)
7) John Havlicek - SF (#4)
8) Kevin Garnett - PF (#4)
9) Dirk Nowitzki - PF (#5)
10) Bob Pettit - PF (#6)
11) LeBron James - SF (#5)
12) Scottie Pippen - SF (#6)
13) Rick Barry - SF (#7)
14) Elvin Hayes - PF (#7)
15) Kevin McHale - PF (#8)
16) Dolph Schayes - SF/PF (#7 SF/#9 PF)
17) Dominique Wilkins - SF (#8)
18) Billy Cunningham - SF (#9)
19) Dennis Rodman - PF (#10)
20) Dave DeBusschere - SF (#10)
21) James Worthy - SF (#11)
22) Bernard King - SF (#12)
23) Paul Pierce - SF (#13)
24) Chris Webber - PF (#11)
25) Alex English - SF (#14)

14 Small Forwards & 11 Power Forwards made the list for me; I feel quite comfortable with my top twenty, however, I had to do a lot of thinking when it came to the last five slots.

Guys like Joe Fulk, Grant Hill, Pau Gasol, Adrian Dantley & Carmelo Anthony were heavily considered by me for that last spot.

[magnax1]

LIke Pistons AI?

Thats...more than a little bit much.
Maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but he went from a 30 ppg scorer on insane %s on alright teams to an 18 ppg scorer on mediocre %s on a poor team. It's not really that different then AI's transformation from Philly to Detroit... is it?

[Kblaze8855]

Hayes and Pippen not on every list is crazy. Though its just crazy enough that I assume it was a mistake.

[Gotterdammerung]

That's not really fair at all. Talking about 89 Dantley is like talking about AI in Detroit. He just wasn't the same player at that point, and on top of that he was replaced by another all star (and on who could be argued to be on this top 25) in his prime.
Actually it is fair, and it's all about the secret of basketball.

Dantley was a great player, but his talent/skill-set was more detrimental to the Detroit Pistons than you think.

This is why NBA 2k logic is the exact opposite of what makes team win titles.

[Gotterdammerung]

Hayes and Pippen not on every list is crazy. Though its just crazy enough that I assume it was a mistake.
I totally left out Hayes. :facepalm Should go back and edit. Take out Bobby Jones or something.

I also overlooked two greats in Spencer Haywood & Connie Hawkins but neither played long enough.

ETA: I fixed my list to include Hayes.

[Kblaze8855]

Dantley went from an also ran that played through him to play with Isiah. He was playing 43 minutes a game when he was at his scoring best in Utah. And then he was on a different kind of team and playing 31-33 minutes and taking 12-14 shots. He didnt just forget how to score. He just wasnt the major feature of the offense.

[magnax1]

Actually it is fair, and it's all about the secret of basketball.

Dantley was a great player, but his talent/skill-set was more detrimental to the Detroit Pistons than you think.

This is why NBA 2k logic is the exact opposite of what makes team win titles.
I don't think he was a good fit, just because that team was made up of tons of different scorers who needed the ball, so anyone who did nothing without the ball is useless. He wasn't a detriment to winning, but just a detriment to a team that was formed without 2 main scorers in mind.

[L.Kizzle]

Hayes and Pippen not on every list is crazy. Though its just crazy enough that I assume it was a mistake.
You didn't watch the voters. I seen Harry Gallitan on a list, lol. Top 25 is a reach, George Yardle and Cliff Hagan in the same era were better.

[Kblaze8855]

Ok. Counted up with tie breakers done by...well you dont need to know. But it wasnt my opinion or a coin flip so leave it at that. It didnt decide any of the bottom guys. just where people will be to begin with.

But I swear when we get near the top people are gonna think I rigged it.

Best who didnt make it poll for the extra spot starting a bit later.

[magnax1]

Dantley went from an also ran that played through him to play with Isiah. He was playing 43 minutes a game when he was at his scoring best in Utah. And then he was on a different kind of team and playing 31-33 minutes and taking 12-14 shots. He didnt just forget how to score. He just wasnt the major feature of the offense.
I'm not talking about Dantley in his first year, or second year in Detroit. He was still a great player then (though not as good as he was in say 82, or 84) I don't think he was quite the same in 89 though.

[Kblaze8855]

Ok im done with this. I have the final list done and am making the first topic now.

[Da Heroic One]

Lebron is probably first, kblaze rigging it for Lebron, just like he won't respond to me here.

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236545

[Doranku]

Forwards
1. Duncan
2. Bird
3. Malone
4. Havlicek
5. Pettit
6. Pippen
7. James
8. Dr. J
9. Barkley
10. Barry
11. KG
12. Baylor
13. McHale
14. Hayes
15. Lucas
16. Wilkins
17. Rodman
18. King
19. Nowitzski
20. Pierce
21. Cunningham
22. Dantley
23. Kemp
24. Gus
25. Gasol

From someone who I've seen denounce plenty of people's opinions in the guard thread, I'd expect something more than this rubbish pile of a list. :wtf:

[RobertdeMeijer]

Ironically, I joined the party too late. I've been working on this list for the last two months. I've carried a book on me for weeks just so I could work on improvements at every possible moment : P

Anyhow, I'm writing it down anyway!
1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan

3. Julius Erving
4. John Havlicek
5. Karl Malone
6. Charles Barkley
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Kevin Garnett
9. LeBron James
10. Scottie Pippen
11. Bob Pettit
12. Rick Barry
13. Elvin Hayes
14. Elgin Baylor

15. Kevin McHale
16. Dennis Rodman
17. Paul Pierce
18. Dominique Wilkins
19. James Worthy
20. Dave DeBusschere
21. Billy Cunningham
22. Dolph Schayes
23. Paul Arizin
24. Alex English
25. Adrian Daintley

Let's get it on!!

[Droid101]

1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. John Havlicek
6. Elgin Baylor
7. Julius Erving
8. Bob Pettit
9. Kevin Garnett
10. Scottie Pippen
11. Rick Barry
12. Dennis Rodman
13. Dirk Nowitzki
14. LeBron James
15. Kevin McHale
16. James Worthy
17. Elvin Hayes
18. Dominique Wilkins
19. Dolph Schayes
20. Paul Arizin
21. Dave DeBusschere
22. Pau Gasol
23. Chris Webber
24. Bernard King
25. Paul Pierce

Whatever.

[Kblaze8855]

Couldnt hurt to count the new lists.

[L.Kizzle]

Ironically, I joined the party too late. I've been working on this list for the last two months. I've carried a book on me for weeks just so I could work on improvements at every possible moment : P

Anyhow, I'm writing it down anyway!
1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan

3. Julius Erving
4. John Havlicek
5. Karl Malone
6. Charles Barkley
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Kevin Garnett
9. LeBron James
10. Scottie Pippen
11. Bob Pettit
12. Rick Barry
13. Elvin Hayes
14. Elgin Baylor

15. Kevin McHale
16. Dennis Rodman
17. Paul Pierce
18. Dominique Wilkins
19. James Worthy
20. Dave DeBusschere
21. Billy Cunningham
22. Dolph Schayes
23. Paul Arizin
24. Alex English
25. Adrian Daintley

Let's get it on!!
Why the hell is Baylor at 14 explain your self.

[WillC]

1 - Larry Bird
2 - Tim Duncan
3 - Elgin Baylor
4 - Bob Pettit
5 - Julius Erving
6 - John Havlicek
7 - Dirk Nowitzki
8 - Karl Malone
9 - Rick Barry
10 - Charles Barkley
11 - Kevin Garnett
12 - LeBron James
13 - Scottie Pippen
14 - Elvin Hayes
15 - Kevin McHale
16 - Dominique Wilkins
17 - James Worthy
18 - Dennis Rodman
19 - Joe Fulks
20 - Dave DeBusschere
21 - Paul Pierce
22 - Bernard King
23 - Alex English
24 - Dolph Schayes
25 - Paul Arizin

[nycelt84]

1.Larrry Bird
2.Tim Duncan
3.Julius Erving
4.Karl Malone
5.John Havlicek
6.Kevin Garnett
7.Elgin Baylor
8.Bob Pettit
9.Charles Barkley
10.Dirk Nowitzki
11.Lebron James
12.Rick Barry
13.Scottie Pippen
14.Kevin McHale
15.Elvin Hayes
16.Jerry Lucas
17.Dolph Schayes
18.Paul Pierce
19.Billy Cunningham
20.Dave Debusschere
21.Dominique Wilkins
22.Paul Arizin
23.James Worthy
24.Dennis Rodman
25.Pau Gasol

[RRR3]

1.) Bird
2.) Duncan
3.) Erving
4.) Garnett
5.) K Malone
6.) Dirk
7.) Barkley
8.) Baylor
9.) Pippen
10.) Havlichek
11.) Pettit
12.) Barry
13.) Hayes
14.) McHale
15.) King
16.) Pierce
17.) Wilkins
18.) Carmelo
19.) Hill
20.) Worthy
21.) Lebron
22.) Schayes
23.) Arizin
24.) Webber
25.) Rodman
:facepalm

[RRR3]

Rough list (probably crappy but whatever)

1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan
3. Charles Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. Julius Erving
6. Elgin Baylor
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Bob Pettit
10. Lebron James
11. John Havlicek
12. Rick Barry
13. Dominique Wilkins
14. Elvin Hayes
15. Scottie Pippen
16. Kevin McHale
17. Dolph Schayes
18. Billy Cunningham
19. Paul Arizin
20. Adrian Dantley
21. Paul Pierce
22. Alex English
23. Chris Webber
24. Grant Hill
25. Bernard King/ James Worthy (eh

[1987_Lakers]

1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan
3. Julius Erving
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Karl Malone
6. Charles Barkley
7. Bob Pettit
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. LeBron James
10. John Havlicek
11. Rick Barry
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Scottie Pippen
14. Kevin McHale
15. Elvin Hayes
16. Dominique Wilkins
17. Paul Pierce
18. Jerry Lucas
19. Dennis Rodman
20. James Worthy
21. Billy Cunningham
22. Dave DeBusschere
23. Chris Webber
24. Adrian Dantley
25. Pau Gasol

[BlackJoker23]

kblaze once got hit in the nuts from goldusts shattered dreams true story

[BlueandGold]

Requesting permission to vote?

Also I'm down for making a top10 but I think a top25 is pretty excessive, considering how most players under25-30 would not have been able to see many of the great forwards play. Also if my vote is to be counted I would like to be able to say that I did put a decent amount of thought into my list and that it is made of entirely of players that I either have seen a good amount of footage to make a rational decision on their game or have seen a good portion of their careers unfold.

Here is my top10.

1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan
3. Julius Erving
4. Elgin Baylor
5. John Havlicek
6. Karl Malone
7. Charles Barkley
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Scottie Pippen
10. Kevin Mchale

[RobertdeMeijer]

Why the hell is Baylor at 14 explain your self.



Why the hell is Baylor at 14 explain your self.

Ah yes, that one does rather stick out doesn't it? And yet, he never impressed me much.
He's on the same tier as alot of almost-great players.
-He was the second best player on the second best team in the 60s.
-Eight finals counts for alot. But so does never winning a championship. Every time I hear about Elgin, I hear about how he missed being part of the 72 Lakers. That's a negative legacy.
-He never won an MVP (most of the guys I chose above him did)
-He won alot of All-NBAs, but so did Pettit, Barry and Hondo
-He went 38-19 in 1960-61, but that's the same year Wilt scored 50.4 and Oscar averaged a triple double. (Lakers went 36-43 that year)
-He compiled alot of stats, but only three times did he pass 10 win shares in the regular season.

Two things make him special really special to me: His jump shot, and how he reacted to that exhibition game in Charleston, West Virginia. Important things to remember, so he's on my list. He was really good, so he's among the best. But to me, he just wasn't as great.

[pauk]

1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan
3. Julius Erving
4. Karl Malone
5. Charles Barkley
6. Lebron James
7. Elgin Baylor
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Kevin Garnett
10. John Havlicek
11. Scottie Pippen
12. Bob Pettit
13. Rick Barry
14. Elvin Hayes
15. Kevin McHale
16. Dennis Rodman
17. Paul Pierce
18. Dominique Wilkins
19. James Worthy
20. Dave DeBusschere
21. Billy Cunningham
22. Dolph Schayes
23. Paul Arizin
24. Alex English
25. Adrian Daintley

[KGMN]

1. Larry Bird
2. Karl Malone
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Julius Erving
5. Tim Duncan
6. Charles Barkley
7. Lebron James
8. Scottie Pippen
9. Bob Pettit
10. Elgin Baylor
11. John Havlicek
12. Elvin Hayes
13. Dirk Nowitzki
14. Kevin McHale
15. James Worthy
16. Rick Barry
17. Dominique Wilkins
18. Paul Pierce
19. Dennis Rodman
20. Alex English
21. Dolph Schayes
22. Dave DeBusschere
23. Shawn Kemp
24. Adrian Dantley
25. Chris Webber

[L.Kizzle]

Ah yes, that one does rather stick out doesn't it? And yet, he never impressed me much.
He's on the same tier as alot of almost-great players.
What is an almost great player? Like a Barkley or Malone cause they are ranked 10 spots or so higher than Baylor.


-He was the second best player on the second best team in the 60s.[/QUOTE]
What makes West the better player (especially in the 1960s.) Maybe towards the end of the decade like the last 2 seasons or so. The Lakers were Baylor team, but it was really 1a 1b starting around 62 season.



-Eight finals counts for alot. But so does never winning a championship. Every time I hear about Elgin, I hear about how he missed being part of the 72 Lakers. That's a negative legacy.
Dude was done by that time, he was hurting the team playing hurt. He played like 11 games that season. He was probably really done by 1969, he wasn't the same player. He got a long the last few seasons by talent alone.



-He never won an MVP (most of the guys I chose above him did)
Only 4 players won MVPs in the 60s, Russell, Wilt, Robertson and Unseld. Hondo, Pippen, Barry or Hayes don't have any MVP awards.



-He won alot of All-NBAs, but so did Pettit, Barry and Hondo
All his are first teams though, 11 straight. Even after not being the same player after that knee injure in the mid 60s'.
Baylor played in the same era as Pettit than later on Hondo and Barry. He was considered better than all three, even without the rings cause he was just that good. If Baylor had just one ring we're talking about a top 5 player all-time. Dude just misses out on most people's top ten list without a ring or MVP, who does that ... Elgin Baylor that's who.


-He went 38-19 in 1960-61, but that's the same year Wilt scored 50.4 and Oscar averaged a triple double. (Lakers went 36-43 that year)
That same year, he was drafted into the US Military. He only played the weekend games. I'm pretty sure most of those loses came when he was doing service on the weekdays.
In the NBA Finals that years, he drops 61 points on the Celtics. Still the record almost 50 years later


-He compiled alot of stats, but only three times did he pass 10 win shares in the regular season.
?

[PTB Fan]

Want to join the project. Here's my list

1.Larry Bird
2.Tim Duncan
3.Elgin Baylor
4.John Havlicek
5.Karl Malone
6.Bob Pettit
7.Charles Barkley
8.Kevin Garnett
9.LeBron James
10.Rick Barry

It's tough for the rest.

[RobertdeMeijer]

What is an almost great player? Like a Barkley or Malone cause they are ranked 10 spots or so higher than Baylor.

Yes, the forward spot is full of almost-greats. It probably has something to do with the possition: neither dominant in size, or the agility to take over. He's on the same big tier.
I admit, I made a glaring mistake: He belongs higher than Elvin Hayes.

-He was the second best player on the second best team in the 60s.
What makes West the better player (especially in the 1960s.) Maybe towards the end of the decade like the last 2 seasons or so. The Lakers were Baylor team, but it was really 1a 1b starting around 62 season.

Yes, it wasn't like he was a complete Robin. Something like Stockton to Malone; debatable. From my perspective, West had more remarkable moments, played better defense and had better statistics. But thing is, he never stuck out.

Dude was done by that time, he was hurting the team playing hurt. He played like 11 games that season. He was probably really done by 1969, he wasn't the same player. He got a long the last few seasons by talent alone.



Only 4 players won MVPs in the 60s, Russell, Wilt, Robertson and Unseld. Hondo, Pippen, Barry or Hayes don't have any MVP awards.

Yups, but Hondo and Pippen have a shitload of rings. Barry has a finals MVP. Hayes, ugh, again my bad : S

All his are first teams though, 11 straight. Even after not being the same player after that knee injure in the mid 60s'.
Baylor played in the same era as Pettit than later on Hondo and Barry. He was considered better than all three, even without the rings cause he was just that good. If Baylor had just one ring we're talking about a top 5 player all-time. Dude just misses out on most people's top ten list without a ring or MVP, who does that ... Elgin Baylor that's who.

Yups, it's bad luck. But championships count alot when it comes to greatness. He's on same tier as Barkley, Malone and LeBron. The same tier as really good players with almost-none/one ring guys Erving, Barry, Hayes, Nowitzki, Garnett. It's a big tier. If he had one ring as a dominant player, (= one moment in the spotlight), I'd put him higher than Barry, maybe even Pettit

That same year, he was drafted into the US Military. He only played the weekend games. I'm pretty sure most of those loses came when he was doing service on the weekdays.
In the NBA Finals that years, he drops 61 points on the Celtics. Still the record almost 50 years later

Granted, that is a great milestone

?
Win Shares is a stat that puts just about everything in the blender. One can point at points per game or rebounds per game to say how good Baylor is. But Win Shares takes more into account. And they say he only had a handful of great regular seasons. I'll admit his playoff Win Shares are better[/QUOTE]