First two weeks of 2011-12 NBA regular season OFFICIALLY CANCELED

[AMISTILLILL]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Earlier in the day, progress was reported on a near agreement in regard to changing the mid-level exception in free agency, but that’s a minor issue in the labor disputes that caused and prolonged the ongoing NBA lockout.

According to Ken Berger of CBS Sports, after the meeting the first person to speak to the media was David Stern, who said: “I’m sorry to report … that the first two weeks of the season have been canceled.”

READ MORE: http://www.insidehoops.com/blog/?p=8422

[SuperPippen]

Now it's officially real.

For ****'s sake...........

[DMAVS41]

sounds like players are to blame....will be interesting to see what they say.

[AMISTILLILL]

I mean, I can't really be too shocked. It's just disappointing to actually see it in black and white.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

The rhetoric is hilarious from both sides:

On they'll say they are close. Next minute they are far apart. Next minute, they are miles apart. Next minute they are close.

It is f*cking ridiculous.

[SourGrapes]

sounds like players are to blame....will be interesting to see what they say.

Sounds like you want the players to take blame.

It takes two sides, genius

[Sawbucks23]

I'm not surprised. If they were not able to come to a conclusion after months of discussing, what makes you think they would settle their differences in a couple of days? The players will cave in around January like the 99 season and their deal will get worse. The players have no leverage since the owners are already losing money. Oh well. We'll just focus on basketball after the NFL season. :facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

[SourGrapes]

The rhetoric is hilarious from both sides:

On they'll say they are close. Next minute they are far apart. Next minute, they are miles apart. Next minute they are close.

It is f*cking ridiculous.

Agreed. Stern says they're apart on every issue, while silver says it's the system, not economic issues

[97 bulls]

This is pitiful

[AMISTILLILL]

I'm not surprised. If they were not able to come to a conclusion after months of discussing, what makes you think they would settle their differences in a couple of days? The players will cave in around January like the 99 season and their deal will get worse. The players have no leverage since the owners are already losing money. Oh well. We'll just focus on basketball after the NFL season. :facepalm

I think a lot of people, many in sports media included, remained hopeful that one side might finally drop the posturing and cave to some degree. Enough to ween Stern away from the idea of cancelling games, or at least delay cancellation.

[Applause]

:applaus...:no:

:(
:cry:
:mad:
:rant

[ukfan22]

I just can't believe they don't realize the harm that cancelling games will do. If they think giving up some money in the CBA is bad, wait until ratings and attendance go way down and there is not enough money anyway.

[DMAVS41]

Sounds like you want the players to take blame.

It takes two sides, genius

of course it does. the owners are to blame as well. that is just obvious.

but form what we've heard, the players not accepting a true 50/50 split of BRI makes little to no business sense. Now, of course we could be getting false information....but it seems like an ego thing.

The players lose 160 million dollars by missing the first two weeks of the season. Which means that they are now -40 million by not starting on time.

And that is if they get what they want....which I don't see how that is possible because the players stance gets weaker every day this goes on while the owners stance gets stronger.

We'll know soon enough.

[dbugz]

Let just the owners fckn cancel the whole season. Everyone is taking a huge hit by this slow economy and those greedy players and agents can't even sacrifice even a bit for the sake of their fans and those other who their jobs are dependent on this coming season.

[prodigyjazz]

:banghead: Not a surprise there will be games missed, it still sucks though

[dak121]

Too many egos and too much stubborness from both sides. Specifically from Hunter and Stern.

In light of what happened with the NFL's lockout they couldn't have played this out any worse.

Horrible leadership all the way around.

[JimmyConway]

The players are so ****ing stupid. Dumbass derek fisher trying to act like he's a professional, just make the ****ing deal, your still going to be a ****ing millionaire along with every other player, you ****tards.

[DMV2]

Wow!! What the ****? :(

Why are they doing this to us?

[Applause]

Wow!! What the ****? :(

Why are they doing this to us?


:applause:

[knicksman]

I just can't believe they don't realize the harm that cancelling games will do. If they think giving up some money in the CBA is bad, wait until ratings and attendance go way down and there is not enough money anyway.

Actually the system right now is what makes nba just third in popularity so they are changing the system so they could compete with nfl when it comes to ratings. Even NHL is more financially stable than nba.

[ukfan22]

Actually the system right now is what makes nba just third in popularity so they are changing the system so they could compete with nfl when it comes to ratings. Even NHL is more financially stable than nba.

nobody will ever compete with the NFL

[PJR]

Awful.

[Heavincent]

:applaus...:no:

:(
:cry:
:mad:
:rant

:applause:

[PleezeBelieve]

These new eras players are learning they dont run sh*t. A large segment of owners HATE these dudes attitude. If you all can't see this is what's fueling the owners fortitude, then I got a bridge to nowhere to sell you.

[Dave3]

I hope there's as much boycotting of the NBA as possible over the next few years. Show them that the fans won't just come crawling back when they pull this crap.

[prodigyjazz]

nobody will ever compete with the NFL

this is true, why else does madden sell like hot cakes even though they release the same game every year

[ukfan22]

someone convince me this isn't all on the players

[knicksman]

nobody will ever compete with the NFL

yup but when it comes to revenues, i think they can. NFL only plays 16 games to 82 games in the nba yet nfl could generate 1.6 billion to nba's 1.1 billion in a season. If theres a hardcap, more fans will support the smaller markets thus increasing revenue and we wont be having this lockout.

[catch24]

I hope there's as much boycotting of the NBA as possible over the next few years. Show them that the fans won't just come crawling back when they pull this crap.

Feel the same way.

[d.bball.guy]

:applaus...:no:

:(
:cry:
:mad:
:rant
:applause:

back to the topic :rant :rant
A lot of good games in the 1st week.:cry:

[DMAVS41]

someone convince me this isn't all on the players

its always both parties faults when negotiations fail unless one side is just being absurd. i don't think that is the case here.

from what i've heard though...it does seem like the players are operating more out of an ego sense than a sound business sense. i really need to see the details though....because i don't see how losing 160 million in salary right off the bat for the players with 2 weeks now gone helps them at all.

espn reported today that the two sides were 800 million apart over a 6 year period. well, the players just cost themselves 160 million by not taking the deal...and they probably cost themselves the ability to get something else they wanted by making the BRI agreement contingent on something else.

so again, i don't see much of the business sense of it. and my initial thought is that the owners are actually telling the truth about the dollars if they are so easily willing to cancel two weeks of the season. and why wouldn't they? it strengthens their position and they don't have to pay out player salary or operating expenses. so i understand their position.

i'm just still a little confused on the players position in terms of what business sense it makes.

[DaPerceive]

Looks like a NHL will get a lot of new fans from these greedy athletes and owners. I feel like a lot of blame actually belongs to the Commissioner David Stern.

[PJR]

It's apparent that the NBA reps still want a hard cap implemented. If that's the case, there will not be a season as the Union will never agree to a hard cap.

[NuggetsFan]

Looks like a NHL will get a lot of new fans from these greedy athletes and owners. I feel like a lot of blame actually belongs to the Commissioner David Stern.

Already got a new one from me. Started during last year's playoffs. Hard to be on the NBA players side when so many of them just care about the money and show no heart what so ever on the court. I understand it completely just as a fan of the game it's hard to back. Owners are at fault too obviously.

I don't expect a season at all. Think we'll lose the entire year. Witch is laughable considering the position the NBA was in.

[bagelred]

http://i56.tinypic.com/2s64wae.jpg

[PP34Deuce]

From what I've gathered, it seems like NBA wants to move toward an NFL like contract where if a player is unproductive,you can cut your losses paying him whatever remaining 30-60 millions left on his contract.

History of the NBA has always been extremely guaranteed....This completely changes NBA and the players are fighting to avoid that hard cap. People bring up Gilbert Arenas, Allan Houston,Grant Hill but these guys dont represent the whole league.

The Union consists of veterans liek Fisher who are set for life financially, and Wade,Melo,Bron,PP,Ray Allen who are set 5 times for life...If the union and players are them....they have said publically they are willing to sacrifice a season and I believe them.

A lot of the younger or less talented players have been going back to finish their senior year in college, and making "bill" money doing showcases..

[bagelred]

Does anyone secretly want the entire season to be canceled just to ruin the NBA for good? :banana:



I mean.....DARN IT, the NBA is canceling games......whatever shall we do?........

[swi7ch]

What, you all thought this will be like the NFL "lockout" and over in a month? :roll:

[iamgine]

Collectively, with no season, does the owner not lose anything? Since they were operating at a loss before anyway. So surely they can hold out for as long as it takes?

[Heavincent]

I hope there's as much boycotting of the NBA as possible over the next few years. Show them that the fans won't just come crawling back when they pull this crap.

I'm inclined to agree.

Come on guys, admit it. Watching the NBA go down in flames is at least mildly entertaining.

[cteach111]

2 lockouts in twelve years... i mean i dont even...

how do you throw away a product that was at its peak after this past season? ugh..

[knicksman]

:banana:

I want a hardcap so cp3 wont join us.

[Meticode]

This couldn't be worse timing for Kobe or the Heatles if the whole season goes array.

[L8k3r5]

I mean, I can't really be too shocked. It's just disappointing to actually see it in black and white.
THIS

[PP34Deuce]

As fans we are upset....

As NBA players, I think they see this being more about life and Corp America. Hearing interviews and seeing tweets, alot of these guys are going back to school, some of em doing legit jobs.

Owners hold the power of course, but lets not act like half of the nBA players are going to be broke for a season.....

Theres always going to be the 10-15% who spend wildly,or do drug deals,record studios...but I think Billy Hunter and Fisher prepared these guy before the season.

[dreaming121]

I hope there's as much boycotting of the NBA as possible over the next few years. Show them that the fans won't just come crawling back when they pull this crap.

The owners win in this scenario. In the next CBA they could even LOWER the Salaries of players in pretext that the NBA isn't as popular and not generating much income.

As time goes by the popularity of NBA becomes decent again... The money players will get is substantially low compared to how much the owners will get.

The players must face that time is not on their side.

[insidehoops]

Update info about what happened tonight, with quotes from David Stern, Derek Fisher and more:

Reload http://www.insidehoops.com/blog/?p=8422

[SevereUpInHere]

http://www.feelsbadman.com/feelsbad.jpg

I"m gutted, I mean I felt it coming, but still. After how good last season was, this makes it even more disappointing...

[longtime lurker]

Both sides just pissed away all the good will and fan support they've generated this past season. How the hell do you have 3 lockouts in 12 years?

[DMAVS41]

Both sides just pissed away all the good will and fan support they've generated this past season. How the hell do you have 3 lockouts in 12 years?

I don't think they pissed it all away. I think as long as the league starts by Thanksgiving not much fan interest will be lost. Anything longer than that would probably hurt a lot.

I'm torn on this. I assume these people aren't stupid...they have to realize that the BRI itself will be much less with a long work stoppage. So the splits become even less important as "the pie" they are splitting becomes smaller.

Players have now lost 160 million in salary they will never get back. There is absolutely no way the owners will soften their stance going forward so I'm just confused as to the point really.

It leads me to believe that the players are operating out of a sense of "ego"...and that we aren't even remotely being told the whole story.

[DMAVS41]

So it sounds like the BRI split thing was way overblown and its all the system issues. That actually makes sense and unfortunately is terrible news for a potential season.

I understand why the players would hold out for a better deal and I understand why owners want system changes.

Not a good sign. I guess the owners really are content with missing extended time and that a lot of their losses they claimed aren't a manipulation of the numbers.

Like I said before, you have to assume these people are not stupid. Therefore owners and players are both well aware of the serious damage an extended work stoppage would cause. So if the owners really are prepared to miss the season...that means a lot of their concerns are real.

For the players, kind of the same thing. If they don't give in, it means that they are truly and fundamentally against any deal the owners have offered.

I know the owners position makes business sense given their negotiating leverage and power. I'm still not sure about the players. As always we need more information, but I still lean towards the players acting from an "ego" place and not a business place.

[RazorBaLade]

They got started around 2:15 or 2:30 p.m. ET or so and didn’t finish until around 9:45 p.m. at night


someone just pls tell me what they were doing for so long.

"union was at 53 and we were at 47"

lulz.

[bdreason]

A lockout during a global recession will not sit well with fans. the NBA really needs to think about the damage they are doing to their brand.

[bdreason]

Collectively, with no season, does the owner not lose anything? Since they were operating at a loss before anyway. So surely they can hold out for as long as it takes?


Only a few teams are really losing money. And most of those teams are small market teams that gave terrible contracts.


And a lockout hurts the teams more than it hurts the players. For every fan a team loses over this lockout, the value of that franchise declines.

[DMV2]

A lockout during a global recession will not sit well with fans. the NBA really needs to think about the damage they are doing to their brand.
When Jordan retired in '98 and they had a lockout for half a season the following season, it took them ten years(2008 Finals) to clean their image and revive their popularity, and after coming off their best season since probably 1998, it's crazy that they're doing this to their brand.

[AMISTILLILL]

Only a few teams are really losing money. And most of those teams are small market teams that gave terrible contracts.


And a lockout hurts the teams more than it hurts the players. For every fan a team loses over this lockout, the value of that franchise declines.

Definitely not true. More teams are losing money than are making money.

[Sarcastic]

Definitely not true. More teams are losing money than are making money.

You've seen the books? You are in a very select group if you have.

[DirtySanchez]

When Jordan retired in '98 and they had a lockout for half a season the following season, it took them ten years(2008 Finals) to clean their image and revive their popularity, and after coming off their best season since probably 1998, it's crazy that they're doing this to their brand.

Exactly they are hurting the brand. This just sucks....

[AMISTILLILL]

You've seen the books? You are in a very select group if you have.

...and what band of roaming clairvoyant gypsies is advising you that anything the league has told you is anything but truthful? I get the whole 'remain skeptical' vibe but there is no way an organization with this many employees manages to falsify documentation concerning revenue without word leaking out in some capacity. Not only that but they stand to lose FAR too much if such a scandal were to leak. For what..? A few extra hundred million a season? The owners aren't nickel and diming scammers. That's pocket change to some of these ownership groups.

There is no logical reason to try and discredit the league at this point, particularly since they've been shown to give much more negotiation-wise than the players at this juncture. If you want to doubt the claims that more teams are losing money, go wild.

[Sarcastic]

...and what band of roaming clairvoyant gypsies is advising you that anything the league has told you is anything but truthful? I get the whole 'remain skeptical' vibe but there is no way an organization with this many employees manages to falsify documentation concerning revenue without word leaking out in some capacity. Not only that but they stand to lose FAR too much if such a scandal were to leak. For what..? A few extra hundred million a season? The owners aren't nickel and diming scammers. That's pocket change to some of these ownership groups.

There is no logical reason to try and discredit the league at this point, particularly since they've been shown to give much more negotiation-wise than the players at this juncture. If you want to doubt the claims that more teams are losing money, go wild.

Every other independent source (NYT, Forbes, etc) have all said the numbers they have seen suggest that the NBA is not losing what it says it is. Not one single independent source has come out and backed the NBA's claims. The only thing backing the NBA's claim is David Stern saying "trust me, trust me". Ok sure :rolleyes:

[AMISTILLILL]

Every other independent source (NYT, Forbes, etc) have all said the numbers they have seen suggest that the NBA is not losing what it says it is. Not one single independent source has come out and backed the NBA's claims. The only thing backing the NBA's claim is David Stern saying "trust me, trust me". Ok sure :rolleyes:

Again, the league hasn't done a thing to make people discredit their claims. When you say 'every other independent source' you're citing the only one that has done any sort of investigation. No other independent sources have even tried... hardly a wealth of information to derive doubt from. The rest of the speculation getting regurgitated through the media is from 'a source' that nobody actually knows or can verify.

Not to mention some of the reports these sources are relying on aren't even based on current financial information. By the way, the source you're citing is the same Forbes article. New York Times just cited that, they didn't do their own. So that's one source.

[DMAVS41]

...and what band of roaming clairvoyant gypsies is advising you that anything the league has told you is anything but truthful? I get the whole 'remain skeptical' vibe but there is no way an organization with this many employees manages to falsify documentation concerning revenue without word leaking out in some capacity. Not only that but they stand to lose FAR too much if such a scandal were to leak. For what..? A few extra hundred million a season? The owners aren't nickel and diming scammers. That's pocket change to some of these ownership groups.

There is no logical reason to try and discredit the league at this point, particularly since they've been shown to give much more negotiation-wise than the players at this juncture. If you want to doubt the claims that more teams are losing money, go wild.


Yea, I tend to agree with this...especially now. Assuming these people are not illogical....both sides know very well the long lasting damage a work stoppage has on the bottom line (BRI) both now and the future. There is absolutely no way the owners would take the risk of alienating their fan base again for issues that aren't real. I think its clear now that the owners feel there are genuine systemic problems with the NBA. Whether they are justified or not is another story.

Same with the players. They know the damage they are doing to the NBA by not conceding more to get a deal done. They clearly feel that they can't in good faith accept the current deal on the table.

Now that we know the BRI split is really not the issue, I really don't see how this gets resolved. One side will have to cave. Simple as that. Aside from all the big market owners coming together and agreeing to huge revenue sharing to make up the difference for smaller market owners....I just don't see the owners giving in all that much. If you believe them (and its hard not to at this point)...then a majority of the teams actually benefit from not having a season. The operating expenses are simply too high to turn a yearly profit. The only thing impacted would be the value of the franchise....and that is the key...the owners have time to recoup those losses for a decade plus amount of time. So they have much more time than the players.

Most players simply won't be in the league more than a few more years so losing out on an entire year of salary is devastating. Which is exactly why I'm more on the owners side. They have a great negotiating position with a ton of leverage....couple that with the world recession and its easy to see why the owners want real changes.

The players simply don't have a great negotiating position and have little to no leverage. So its harder to understand them taking such a hard line. They keep saying "we just want to play"....well, if that is true, make a few more concessions and play. Simple as that.

[bdreason]

I'll believe the owners when they open their books. Otherwise, I'll listen to financial experts and my own common sense with the NBA coming off it's highest rated season in over a decade.

Why would anyone take the word of a billionaire in a business deal? They didn't make billions by telling the truth. :oldlol:

[AMISTILLILL]

I'll believe the owners when they open their books. Otherwise, I'll listen to financial experts and my own common sense with the NBA coming off it's highest rated season in over a decade.

Why would anyone take the word of a billionaire in a business deal? They didn't make billions by telling the truth. :oldlol:

...so, distrust the billionaire... but take a periodical that panders to billionaires and the elite as a credible source? Air tight logic.

Also, don't trust the group of billionaires in the business deal but... do trust the group of millionaires. Got it.

[Sarcastic]

Again, the league hasn't done a thing to make people discredit their claims. When you say 'every other independent source' you're citing the only one that has done any sort of investigation. No other independent sources have even tried... hardly a wealth of information to derive doubt from. The rest of the speculation getting regurgitated through the media is from 'a source' that nobody actually knows or can verify.

Not to mention some of the reports these sources are relying on aren't even based on current financial information. By the way, the source you're citing is the same Forbes article. New York Times just cited that, they didn't do their own. So that's one source.

Most of the owners losses are fictitious. They use money from their teams to pay the arenas and call it a loss, meanwhile half the time they own the arenas, or if they don't, they get the city to pay for them.

Another thing they do for instance is when they buy a team for say $400 million, they will spread the payments over 7 years and pay interest on those payments. They count that interest as a loss, and this is perfectly legal according to GAAP. However, why in the hell should the players be responsible for the interest an owner pays to buy his team? That should be his own loss, and not passed onto the players. No one told him to buy a team. Why should players pay for his interest?

[AMISTILLILL]

Most of the owners losses are fictitious. They use money from their teams to pay the arenas and call it a loss, meanwhile half the time they own the arenas, or if they don't, they get the city to pay for them.

Another thing they do for instance is when they buy a team for say $400 million, they will spread the payments over 7 years and pay interest on those payments. They count that interest as a loss, and this is perfectly legal according to GAAP. However, why in the hell should the players be responsible for the interest an owner pays to buy his team? That should be his own loss, and not passed onto the players. No one told him to buy a team. Why should players pay for his interest?

You've seen their book of dirty tricks and ways to claim fictitious losses? You are in a very select group if you have.

[Sarcastic]

I'll believe the owners when they open their books. Otherwise, I'll listen to financial experts and my own common sense with the NBA coming off it's highest rated season in over a decade.

Why would anyone take the word of a billionaire in a business deal? They didn't make billions by telling the truth. :oldlol:

They'll never open the books to the public. If they did, it would be shown that owning a team is just a slush fund for them, and used to move money around between their other businesses, or pay their cronies huge salaries, or as a tax write off.

For instance why does Jerry Buss pay his daughter Jennie Buss $4 million to run the Lakers? In most companies that have to answer to shareholders, this type of cronyism would never be allowed.

[AMISTILLILL]

They'll never open the books to the public. If they did, it would be shown that owning a team is just a slush fund for them, and used to move money around between their other businesses, or pay their cronies huge salaries, or as a tax write off.

For instance why does Jerry Buss pay his daughter Jennie Buss $4 million to run the Lakers? In most companies that have to answer to shareholders, this type of cronyism would never be allowed.

The more you post the more I keep getting this mental image:
http://rightvoices.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/tinfoil-hat.jpg

[Sarcastic]

You've seen their book of dirty tricks and ways to claim fictitious losses? You are in a very select group if you have.

Go look up the Blazers lease agreement with the Rose Center. Then look up who owns the Blazers and who owns the Rose Center. The answer to both is Paul Allen. He pays the Rose Center money from the Blazers in order to use the arena.

[Sarcastic]

The more you post the more I keep getting this mental image:
http://rightvoices.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/tinfoil-hat.jpg

Because any semblance of truth is always met with the tin foil hat claim.


Prove any of the things I said are wrong.

[AMISTILLILL]

Go look up the Blazers lease agreement with the Rose Center. Then look up who owns the Blazers and who owns the Rose Center. The answer to both is Paul Allen. He pays the Rose Center money from the Blazers in order to use the arena.

Was Tower 7 a controlled demo too?

Not everything that seems convenient or out of place is some sort of nefarious act perpetrated by sketchy corporations. What you posted literally means nothing to me.

[DMAVS41]

Go look up the Blazers lease agreement with the Rose Center. Then look up who owns the Blazers and who owns the Rose Center. The answer to both is Paul Allen. He pays the Rose Center money from the Blazers in order to use the arena.

So what. That is like getting mad at Dwight Howard for wearing Adidas apparel and then getting paid for it. And what allows him to get paid for wearing clothes and to profit from commercials..etc. The NBA. No NBA and those deals in the U.S. wouldn't exist.

Nobody is saying that this is fair to the players. But business and life aren't fair. Is it fair that an insurance salesman has to kick up a percentage of his sales to his boss? Maybe...maybe not....but the only way that insurance salesman can function most of the time is within the "vehicle" that his boss has created.

The facts are that the owners have more power and leverage at this point. Maybe that changes in the near future...but right now the owners position strengthens each game that is missed and the players position is weakened. It would simply be idiotic negotiating practices to not use that leverage to get the best deal possible.

[Sarcastic]

Was Tower 7 a controlled demo too?

Not everything that seems convenient or out of place is some sort of nefarious act perpetrated by sketchy corporations. What you posted literally means nothing to me.

Are you really out of ammo now, and want to go off topic?

[AMISTILLILL]

Because any semblance of truth is always met with the tin foil hat claim.


Prove any of the things I said are wrong.

Dude... are you serious? Prove anything you've stated is RIGHT. The burden of proof is on your hands, not mine. You're conjecturing that a multi-billion dollar organization is doing all kinds of seedy shenanigans behind closed doors but have zero empirical evidence to backup these kinds of lofty claims. I'm simply stating information that's been proliferated through the media by the heads of said organization who, to the best of our knowledge, have done nothing to lead us to believe they're secretly trying to screw everyone.

Do you write ESPN and a myriad of sports columnists to 'prove things' too? No, because they report news and information grounded in legitimacy and fact, no paranoia and speculation.

[AMISTILLILL]

Are you really out of ammo now, and want to go off topic?

...what the hell are you talking about? The first sentence was a joke. This isn't some sort of flame war... I just can't wrap my head around why somebody would be so convinced that an organization is out to commit all these heinous atrocities with no rhyme or reason.

[Sarcastic]

Dude... are you serious? Prove anything you've stated is RIGHT. The burden of proof is on your hands, not mine. You're conjecturing that a multi-billion dollar organization is doing all kinds of seedy shenanigans behind closed doors but have zero empirical evidence to backup these kinds of lofty claims. I'm simply stating information that's been proliferated through the media by the heads of said organization who, to the best of our knowledge, have done nothing to lead us to believe they're secretly trying to screw everyone.

Do you write ESPN and a myriad of sports columnists to 'prove things' too? No, because they report news and information grounded in legitimacy and fact, no paranoia and speculation.

The NBA won't open any of the books, so the only thing that we can go on is the word of David Stern. Are you that naive that you believe everything a lawyer tells you?

[Sarcastic]

...what the hell are you talking about? The first sentence was a joke. This isn't some sort of flame war... I just can't wrap my head around why somebody would be so convinced that an organization is out to commit all these heinous atrocities with no rhyme or reason.

I'm trying to stay on topic, and you are going off onto tangents about tin foil hats and WTC7.

Show me 1 independent source that says the NBA is losing as much as they claim.

[AMISTILLILL]

The NBA won't open any of the books, so the only thing that we can go on is the word of David Stern. Are you that naive that you believe everything a lawyer tells you?

Why does the NBA need to open their books? That has literally no relevance to what we're talking about. I hate to conjure this up again but your argument here is starting to sound awfully familiar to the whole 'truther' movement. Simply demanding free access to information isn't grounds to assume wrong-doing is at hand... that's just misguided and bizarre. The NBA has no legitimate reason to divulge their financial information to anyone. Once again, the league has done absolutely nothing to lead us to believe they're steering us away from some dastardly scheme.

As I stated earlier, you're more than welcome to remain skeptical about it but you can't be surprised when somebody thinks your opinion is way off base and anything but lucid.

[AMISTILLILL]

I'm trying to stay on topic, and you are going off onto tangents about tin foil hats and WTC7.

Show me 1 independent source that says the NBA is losing as much as they claim.

How exactly does an independent source automatically equate unequivocal credibility?

[NuggetsFan]

Go look up the Blazers lease agreement with the Rose Center. Then look up who owns the Blazers and who owns the Rose Center. The answer to both is Paul Allen. He pays the Rose Center money from the Blazers in order to use the arena.

I could be really off with this thinking BUT

- Allen owns the Blazers
- Allen owns the Arena.

He pays the Blazers dues to use said arena to himself. However there two separate businesses. Pretty sure the Nuggets are the same too. So yeah the Nuggets owner isn't technically losing money because he's making profit off his arena but his Denver Nuggets business still could be. There different. It's like saying if Mark Cuban is losing money with the Mavericks it's irrelevant because he's making money in other area's.

Yeah It's kinds shady\stupid that the owners themselves probably aren't losing that much money as being advertised because of something like this, doesn't mean the FRANCHISE isn't actually losing that much. Just because Stan Kroenke is paying himself doesn't make the Denver Nuggets profitable, just means he himself isn't losing as much due to his other business ventures. So the Denver Nuggets as whole could be losing what is being said? Using Nuggets\Blazers are random ex.

I could be really off here, tired as shit :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

The NBA won't open any of the books, so the only thing that we can go on is the word of David Stern. Are you that naive that you believe everything a lawyer tells you?

They opened their books to the players right?

Do you actually think the owners are committing fraud? And if they were bluffing...don't you think they would have conceded more once the season actually became at risk?

The actual missing of games pretty proves that the owners have serious issues....and on the other side...that the players think the current offered deals are a joke.

I think we are way beyond the point of questioning the legitimacy of the positions.

[Sarcastic]

I could be really off with this thinking BUT

- Allen owns the Blazers
- Allen owns the Arena.

He pays the Blazers dues to use said arena to himself. However there two separate businesses. Pretty sure the Nuggets are the same too. So yeah the Nuggets owner isn't technically losing money because he's making profit off his arena but his Denver Nuggets business still could be. There different. It's like saying if Mark Cuban is losing money with the Mavericks it's irrelevant because he's making money in other area's.

Yeah It's kinds shady\stupid that the owners themselves probably aren't losing that much money as being advertised because of something like this, doesn't mean the FRANCHISE isn't actually losing that much. Just because Stan Kroenke is paying himself doesn't make the Denver Nuggets profitable, just means he himself isn't losing as much due to his other business ventures. So the Denver Nuggets as whole could be losing what is being said? Using Nuggets\Blazers are random ex.

I could be really off here, tired as shit :oldlol:


What they are do is perfectly legal according to GAAP, however it's disingenuous to say the owners are all losing money on their teams. On paper, sure. But in reality they are not. Not all at least. I am sure there are some that can't make money no matter what, but those teams should be cut anyway (Bucks, Kings, etc).

[DMAVS41]

I could be really off with this thinking BUT

- Allen owns the Blazers
- Allen owns the Arena.

He pays the Blazers dues to use said arena to himself. However there two separate businesses. Pretty sure the Nuggets are the same too. So yeah the Nuggets owner isn't technically losing money because he's making profit off his arena but his Denver Nuggets business still could be. There different. It's like saying if Mark Cuban is losing money with the Mavericks it's irrelevant because he's making money in other area's.

Yeah It's kinds shady\stupid that the owners themselves probably aren't losing that much money as being advertised because of something like this, doesn't mean the FRANCHISE isn't actually losing that much. Just because Stan Kroenke is paying himself doesn't make the Denver Nuggets profitable, just means he himself isn't losing as much due to his other business ventures. So the Denver Nuggets as whole could be losing what is being said? Using Nuggets\Blazers are random ex.

I could be really off here, tired as shit :oldlol:

Yep.

And this is exactly why the real world matters so much. Because the owners have lost a lot of money due to the recession, they have less money coming in from those other businesses.

In the past, they negotiated deals that didn't take such hard stances because they didn't have to. Its not like owners of a NBA team have to lose money...or have to make money. They can treat it as a business or as owning a precious piece of art. As owners, they get to decide. If they want to run it like a straight up business and make a profit...its their right.

[Sarcastic]

They opened their books to the players right?

Do you actually think the owners are committing fraud? And if they were bluffing...don't you think they would have conceded more once the season actually became at risk?

The actual missing of games pretty proves that the owners have serious issues....and on the other side...that the players think the current offered deals are a joke.

I think we are way beyond the point of questioning the legitimacy of the positions.

The players said the numbers were much less than the NBA's reported number.

He said, she said. Pick your side.

Again, I am fine with the players giving back money. That is perfectly reasonable. I think changes should be made. But the owners trying to go for a 50/50 split is just them trying to grab as many dollars as they can.

[DMAVS41]

What they are do is perfectly legal according to GAAP, however it's disingenuous to say the owners are all losing money on their teams. On paper, sure. But in reality they are not. Not all at least. I am sure there are some that can't make money no matter what, but those teams should be cut anyway (Bucks, Kings, etc).

LOL...you do realize that the players are totally against contraction and would never agree to it. They would lose 15 jobs per team....

Contraction is like the ultimate weapon of the owners. And you are supporting it? LOL

[NuggetsFan]

What they are do is perfectly legal according to GAAP, however it's disingenuous to say the owners are all losing money on their teams. On paper, sure. But in reality they are not. Not all at least. I am sure there are some that can't make money no matter what, but those teams should be cut anyway (Bucks, Kings, etc).

But in reality those are two different businesses. Doesn't matter that they are owned by the same people, just makes it douchey. NBA lockout concerns NBA franchises. So if Allen is making bank of his Blazers from the Rose center it doesn't make it ok if the Blazers aren't making money. You can't go well the Blazers lost 10m but 7 of that went to the Rose Garden so really Allen is only losing out on 3m. Doesn't work that way. The Blazers loss would be 10m plain and simple.

Of course simply just talking about your one point with the arenas's\owners with random numbers.

[DMAVS41]

The players said the numbers were much less than the NBA's reported number.

He said, she said. Pick your side.

Again, I am fine with the players giving back money. That is perfectly reasonable. I think changes should be made. But the owners trying to go for a 50/50 split is just them trying to grab as many dollars as they can.

Call it what you want. Its smart business. The owners have a great power position with leverage....it would be bad business not to use it. Especially when a lot of owners are actually struggling.

Once again, the owners position makes sense business wise. The players position is one that I'm struggling to understand business wise because they have little to no leverage and each game they miss costs them millions of dollars they can never get back.

[All Net]

Ugh

This is all about greed

[icewill36]

as a fan who just wants to see ball, its hard to feel bad for either side. **** em both for letting it come to this, but i hate the owners getting the better of the deal when most of them aren't even doing everything they can to try and win a title. most just are in it to turn a profit. they are businessmen who usually dont even care for the sport they own a team for. i also believe owners care about fans far less than players do since players are the product and who fans love and cheer for. its easier for owners to keep this lockout without caving because of this and the longer it goes on the more hate players will get. id like to see the players get a fair deal but rather see pro ball ASAP.

[Clutch]

Now we can just pray for at least half a season.

No season is becoming more and more of a possibility.

[HylianNightmare]

shocker

[PP34Deuce]

The media is doing their job right now...

Alot of backlash in this forum is more on the players than the owners.

[pegasus]

Does anybody know if the teams will receive money from the TV deals for missed games? I read somewhere that, in 1999, their contact called for payments to be made even if games were not played, which gave the owners the upper hand since the players did not receive checks during the lockout.

I'm thinking that the networks learned from that mistake and renewed their contracts accordingly, but I'm not even sure if they've had new contracts since then.

[knicksman]

as a fan who just wants to see ball, its hard to feel bad for either side. **** em both for letting it come to this, but i hate the owners getting the better of the deal when most of them aren't even doing everything they can to try and win a title. most just are in it to turn a profit. they are businessmen who usually dont even care for the sport they own a team for. i also believe owners care about fans far less than players do since players are the product and who fans love and cheer for. its easier for owners to keep this lockout without caving because of this and the longer it goes on the more hate players will get. id like to see the players get a fair deal but rather see pro ball ASAP.

Thats why they want a hardcap so they can compete. How can you compete if its always the big markets that are winning?

[knickscity]

Does anybody know if the teams will receive money from the TV deals for missed games? I read somewhere that, in 1999, their contact called for payments to be made even if games were not played, which gave the owners the upper hand since the players did not receive checks during the lockout.

I'm thinking that the networks learned from that mistake and renewed their contracts accordingly, but I'm not even sure if they've had new contracts since then.
Yup, the owners still get the TV money, but have to pay it back if there is no season.

[Lakers Legend#32]

If Seattle can't have the NBA then no one should, especially Bumf#ck OKC.

[lilbill]

Now we can just pray for at least half a season.

No season is becoming more and more of a possibility.

I'm starting to think that's the case.

[Mistwell]

If Seattle can't have the NBA then no one should, especially Bumf#ck OKC.

If OKC can field a profitably team while Seattle cannot, I'd say OKC deserves it more.