Defense vs. Offense

[DMAVS41]

So now, you'd choose Bargnani after all?

Why did you say "of course Howard"

We're not talking about finished products... I'm asking, if you had to build with a rookie Bargnani or rookie Howard... which one?

what are you talking about? those are unknown players in the draft. I'd take Howard because of what he could turn into.

The OP was about building around known players in which you knew what you were getting. I'd take Howard for the exact reason for what happened. Its easier to see Howard having more success than Bargs.

You are completely changing the debate. Which is fine...I think its a good change of tune...and I agree with what you are saying. Its safter to draft the atheltic freak that you know can defend and rebound. But that has almost nothing to do with this debate we've been having.

[catch24]

Of course there are exceptions...totally agree.

And that's all I've been really saying. There are so many factors you gotta consider when debating a topic like this (team structure, offensive/defensive-system, impact, level of play, etc). Its just not as simple as saying, individual offense over defense. Perspective is key in these type of discussions.

[DMAVS41]

And that's all I've been really saying. There are so many factors you gotta consider when debating a topic like this (team structure, offensive/defensive-system, impact, level of play, etc). Its just not as simple as saying, individual offense over defense. Perspective is key in these type of discussions.

true, but on the whole individual offense does trump individual defense...you just said so.

take the 10 best defenders ever and give them 0 offense.....vs the 10 best offensive players and give them 0 defense.

you are taking the 10 offensive players on the whole because what they offer simply has more value.

thats the point. and that is exactly what this thread has been about.

[catch24]

true, but on the whole individual offense does trump individual defense...you just said so.

Right. Just seemed as an outsider looking in some of the earlier posts were of the belief that it couldn't even be argued.


take the 10 best defenders ever and give them 0 offense.....vs the 10 best offensive players and give them 0 defense.

you are taking the 10 offensive players on the whole because what they offer simply has more value.

thats the point. and that is exactly what this thread has been about.

Alright, cool. I thought we were just generally speaking. My fault.

[DMAVS41]

Right. Just seemed as an outsider looking in some of the earlier posts were of the belief that it couldn't even be argued.



Alright, cool. I thought we were just generally speaking. My fault.

of course it can be argued and their are exceptions. i was generally speaking about offense vs defense at the elite levels proposed in the hypothetical.

[97 bulls]

Let me ask a question.... who is the better coach don nelson and mike dantoni or larry brown and greg popovich?

[catch24]

of course it can be argued and their are exceptions. i was generally speaking about offense vs defense at the elite levels proposed in the hypothetical.

For sure.

So, getting back to '97 bulls' illustration of Magic/Pippen, all things being the same, why would you take Magic? I know why I'd take MJ, but not sure I got to see your point of view..or really understood it correctly. I'm genuinely interested. Thanks in advance.

[Legends66NBA7]

Let me ask a question.... who is the better coach don nelson and mike dantoni or larry brown and greg popovich?

Really depends on the situation, but the choice is an obvious one, due to success:

Larry Brown and Gregg Popovich.

[Legends66NBA7]

Better question, who's better for offense vs defense:

Rick Adelman or Rick Carlisle ?

Closer battle...

[97 bulls]

Better question, who's better for offense vs defense:

Rick Adelman or Rick Carlisle ?

Closer battle...
I gotta go with carlisle. He's donne a relatively good job where ever he's gone. But I think its close. I used brown/pop vs dantoni/nelson because they have contrasting philosophies. Nelson and dantoni have the approach that they're gonna outscore their opposiition, while brown and pop stress defense.

[DMAVS41]

For sure.

So, getting back to '97 bulls' illustration of Magic/Pippen, all things being the same, why would you take Magic? I know why I'd take MJ, but not sure I got to see your point of view..or really understood it correctly. I'm genuinely interested. Thanks in advance.

Simply put, I think Magic was just a far superior player. I know that isn't what you want to hear, but I'm tired and don't want to write out in depth why I feel Magic was better.

I've never seen a player make the other players better to the extent magic did.

[tpols]

Let me ask a question.... who is the better coach don nelson and mike dantoni or larry brown and greg popovich?
This even further proves that elite individual offense beats elite individual defense by showing that team defense is more valuable than team offense[which is why the defensive coaches are better.. they orchestrate the team defense].

[DMAVS41]

This even further proves that elite individual offense beats elite individual defense by showing that team defense is more valuable than team offense[which is why the defensive coaches are better.. they orchestrate the team defense].

bingo.

[knicksman]

Really depends on the situation, but the choice is an obvious one, due to success:

Larry Brown and Gregg Popovich.

defensive teams are more likely going to win in their first year than offensive teams but offensive teams are more consistent in winning more games every year. and gregg really is a good offensive coach. There are lots of defensive coaches that failed too like jvg. In fact the best defensive team chicago,miami lost to a lesser defensive team but better offensively. You still need both when it comes to coaches.

[Legends66NBA7]

defensive teams are more likely going to win in their first year than offensive teams but offensive teams are more consistent in winning more games every year. and gregg really is a good offensive coach. There are lots of defensive coaches that failed too like jvg. In fact the best defensive team chicago,miami lost to a lesser defensive team but better offensively. You still need both when it comes to coaches.

Well that's right. You need balance on both sides, really.

That's why Phil Jackson has 11 rings and Red Auerbach has 9 rings on their resume. They had a great influence on both sides of the floor.

Also, they had players that were great at their roles for both sides and for one side of the court as well.

Balance is the key. Although, that's not exactly the premise of this thread, per se.

[knicksman]

Well that's right. You need balance on both sides, really.

That's why Phil Jackson has 11 rings and Red Auerbach has 9 rings on their resume. They had a great influence on both sides of the floor.

Also, they had players that were great at their roles for both sides and for one side of the court as well.

Balance is the key. Although, that's not exactly the premise of this thread, per se.

yah but i think if i have to chose between offense and defense, I would still go with offense IMO. I think those suns could be better if they only had a center like chandler. Those 2010 suns team were pretty good and I think they could have done better if they have a better center than an injured lopez. Too bad they have a cheap owner.