Walt Frazier: If Wilt Was Playing Today He'd Average 75 A Game

[Round Mound]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMvmsCqRAiI&feature=related

[DaPerceive]

Wilt thinks that himself....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc3lDEUw2ik

@0:30

[cteach111]

just feed him to ball 50 times a game too right?

[jlauber]

Obviously, Frazier's REAL commentary was that a PRIME Wilt would be a DOMINANT player in TODAY's NBA. Hard to argue with that either...since Wilt would be listed at 7-3 (with shoes), and with a measured 7-8 wingspan, and with a high-jump champion leaping ability, at anywhere from 280-300+ lbs, and with a 500+ lb bench press, and with sprinter's speed (he was a member of KU's 4x100 relay team), along with a DOCUMENTED quality outside game (as claimed by none other than HOF coach Red Holzman, who WITNESSED it), and MULTIPLE post moves. Furthermore, Wilt would probably physically just overwhelm his opposing centers, since Shaq was allowed to do so.

75 ppg? Who really cares? Basically, it would be what Chamberlain would be CAPABLE of dropping on TODAY's NBA. Frazier, like MANY other's, believes that Wilt would be unstoppable.

[The_Yearning]

Wilt would be lucky to average 23 a game...

[Collie]

I have it on good measure that he would average 26.3 ppg and 12.7 rpg.

[jlauber]

Wilt would be lucky to average 23 a game...

That's YOUR opinion, which is based on... NOTHING. Frazier's 75 ppg is obviously not realistic, but it is much closer to reality than a PRIME Chamberlain only scoring 23 ppg in TODAY's NBA, which is LITTERED with inept clods at the center spot.

[PHILA]

And according to many posters here Wilt would be so poor as a scorer he'd be unable to draw a double team, & any doubles would result in high turnovers (another hopeful guess). Scary thing is they're not trolling.

[jlauber]

I have it on good measure that he would average 26.3 ppg and 12.7 rpg.

Pure speculation. What is not speculation, is the fact that Wilt would be a MONSTER in terms of height, wing-span, strength, speed, leaping ability, and SKILLS. Give him the same latitude that Shaq enjoyed at his peak, and Wilt would simply be unstoppable.

[jlauber]

And according to many posters here Wilt would be so poor as a scorer he'd be unable to draw a double team, & any doubles would result in high turnovers (another hopeful guess). Scary thing is they're not trolling.

Yep...when I read that a injury-prone COW like Bynum would be a better player...well, ...

[cteach111]

And according to many posters here Wilt would be so poor as a scorer he'd be unable to draw a double team, & any doubles would result in high turnovers (another hopeful guess). Scary thing is they're not trolling.

no, people are smart enough to realize that its retarded to make the ridiculous statement that Wilt would average 75. No one's doing that.

The game has changed. No, i'm not implying that Wilt played a bunch of short, white dudes.. I'm talking about possessions. There's not enough to be generating points like that.

Also, let's just skip over the fact that he averaged 48.5 mpg. So... over 48 mpg and 100-120 possessions per game and he averaged 50. If I recall correctly, he also had virtually 40 field goal attempts per game.

So, he's gonna average 75 ppg in this slow-paced era where Wack-a-Wilt will be in full effect every game. Right..

Look, to even it out, Jordan's not putting up 50 or whatever in this era either. Do the math man..

[PHILA]

Not once have I mentioned any form of statistics.

[Friday]

Wilt would be Ryan Hollins in today's league.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Wilt would be Ryan Hollins in today's league.

Na he'd be more along the lines of this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgeeja01.html

[Friday]

And yes, Wilt clearly played against a bunch of 5'5 unathletc white guys.

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2963000/AlphaWolf-2963314_1611_930.jpg

[Friday]

Na he'd be more along the lines of this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgeeja01.html
McGee would average at least 95 points a game in the 60s.

[cteach111]

Not once have I mentioned any form of statistics.
and THE_YEARNING isn't many posters

[jlauber]

no, people are smart enough to realize that its retarded to make the ridiculous statement that Wilt would average 75. No one's doing that.

The game has changed. No, i'm not implying that Wilt played a bunch of short, white dudes.. I'm talking about possessions. There's not enough to be generating points like that.

Also, let's just skip over the fact that he averaged 48.5 mpg. So... over 48 mpg and 100-120 possessions per game and he averaged 50. If I recall correctly, he also had virtually 40 field goal attempts per game.

So, he's gonna average 75 ppg in this slow-paced era where Wack-a-Wilt will be in full effect every game. Right..

Look, to even it out, Jordan's not putting up 50 or whatever in this era either. Do the math man..

No, he is not putting up 50 ppg. BUT, if Kobe could get 28 FGAs in the '06 season, and given the fact that a PRIME Wilt could start his offense from 15+ feet, and had solid range, with exceptional quickness, 25+ FGAs would not be out of the question. Especially since Wilt would be leading the league in MPG...at probably around 42-43 mpg. Furthermore, Wilt would be MORE effcient for TWO reasons. One, the NBA, as a whole, is considerably more efficient (especially when you factor in eFG%) than when Wilt played. And two, Wilt's effciency would naturally go up, since he would be better rested (in terms of both single games...and over the course of the entire season.)

Psileas made an interesting post a while back. Wilt, at the beginning of his 69-70 season, was aked by his coach to become the focal point of the Laker offense. In the first nine games of the season, he averaged 32.2 ppg on 60% shooting. Unfortunately, he shredded his knee, and we never got to what he might have accomplished in a full season. In any case, that was NOT a PRIME Wilt.

Give Wilt 25 FGAs, and at 60% shooting, and he would be scoring 30 ppg just in terms of FGAs. Add in another 5+ from the line...and you have a 35 ppg scorer. Even at 20 FGAs, and on 60% shooting, and with his FTAs, he would still be close to 30 ppg. Is that unrealistic?

[Friday]

Look at Ryan Hollins's current numbers, those are what Wilt's numbers would be in today's league.

[jlauber]

Look at Ryan Hollins's current numbers, those are what Wilt's numbers would be in today's league.

Yep...if you pulled his corpse from the ground and propped him up near the basket. Just by bouncing the ball off of Wilt's head he would probably eclipse Hollins scoring.

And I doubt Hollins could score over Wilt's corpse, either.

[cteach111]

No, he is not putting up 50 ppg. BUT, if Kobe could get 28 FGAs in the '06 season, and given the fact that a PRIME Wilt could start his offense from 15+ feet, and had solid range, with exceptional quickness, 25+ FGAs would not be out of the question. Especially since Wilt would be leading the league in MPG...at probably around 42-43 mpg. Furthermore, Wilt would be MORE effcient for TWO reasons. One, the NBA, as a whole, is considerably more efficient (especially when you factor in eFG%) than when Wilt played. And two, Wilt's effciency would naturally go up, since he would be better rested (in terms of both single games...and over the course of the entire season.)

Give Wilt 25 FGAs, and at 60% shooting, and he would be scoring 30 ppg just in terms of FGAs. Add in another 5+ from the line...and you have a 35 ppg scorer. Even at 20 FGAs, and on 60% shooting, and with his FTAs, he would still be close to 30 ppg. Is that unrealistic?

it's absolutely realistic that a player of Wilt's caliber would put up 30ppg. I wouldn't question that.

I would expect him to have a few seasons of that quality.

[PHILA]

Yep...when I read that a injury-prone COW like Bynum would be a better player...well, ...

I'm sure numerous posters here and on the realgm forums believe it, whether or not they will actually say so. The inability to draw a double team? What makes him better than Sammy Dalembert in their eyes? How can one even begin to debate Wilt as an all-time player with people like this? :ohwell:

[PHILA]

and THE_YEARNING isn't many posters
Nor have I specified anyone in this thread, or forum.

[Friday]

I'm sure numerous posters here and on the realgm forums believe it, whether or not they will actually say so. The inability to draw a double team? What makes him better than Sammy Dalembert in their eyes? How can one even begin to debate Wilt as an all-time player with people like this? :ohwell:
Just curious, did you ever watch Wilt play live?

[bdreason]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Wilt would be amongst the elite Centers playing today. He wouldn't post anywhere near his career numbers, but I could see him posting anywhere from 15-25 ppg, depending on the situation, and he would certainly be one of the top rebounders in the league as well.

[Tha Catalyst]

I think he would be around Shaq scoring numbers with better rebounding and block numbers. Offense is generated from the perimeter these days and even a player like Shaq had limited touches in his prime. Peak of around 35 ppg and 15rpg, which would be good for best player in the league during his prime no doubt. He isn't getting over 40ppg, I doubt those number will be approached again, and will not be getting over 20 rebounds.

[jlauber]

I'm sure numerous posters here and on the realgm forums believe it, whether or not they will actually say so. The inability to draw a double team? What makes him better than Sammy Dalembert in their eyes? How can one even begin to debate Wilt as an all-time player with people like this? :ohwell:

And I also have to shake my head at Wilt NOT drawing double-teams. Even in the limited footage that exists from the '64, '67 Finals (two HALVES), '70, and '72 Finals, almost every time Wilt catches a pass, and makes a move to the basket, he is swarmed.

Sure he manages to get some one-on-one shots, but very seldom. Of course, if anyone actually researched this, they would KNOW that Wilt was SWARMED by opposing TEAMS for much of his career. Even the Celtics, with Russell, used a TEAM defensive approach. AND, Wilt was BRUTALIZED, too.

[senelcoolidge]

You have a lot of people here that don't know basketball. Wilt would dominate in today's NBA. Have you seen NBA centers these days..their terrible. They are very athletic, but that's it. Wilt would eat these guys up. Frazier was not being literal when he said Wilt would score 75ppg. Come on guys..can't you figure that out. When he says that he means that Wilt would dominate in today's game easily. Even a out of prime Wilt would dominate. By your logic I guess Lebron will be considered a scrub 20 years from now.

[DMAVS41]

There is no reason to believe that a prime Wilt would not score between 30 and 35 ppg in the current league.

Todays nba players are too good to straight up double a center....

[Deuce Bigalow]

30/15 prime

[eliteballer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLe-ZSAHsk

That man is not averaging 75 a game

[jlauber]

There is no reason to believe that a prime Wilt would not score between 30 and 35 ppg in the current league.

Todays nba players are too good to straight up double a center....

I agree to a point. I think a prime Wilt would easily be capable of scoring 30+ ppg, but so much would depend on his surrounding personnel. I think he would adapt to whatever conditions he would be playing in. Give him a relatively poor roster (like Kobe's '06 Lakers), and he would probably easily get 30-35 ppg (maybe even more.) But, give him decent teammates, and I suspect that he would be a 25 ppg scorer (on an unfathomable efficiency.)

[cteach111]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Wilt would be amongst the elite Centers playing today. He wouldn't post anywhere near his career numbers, but I could see him posting anywhere from 15-25 ppg, depending on the situation, and he would certainly be one of the top rebounders in the league as well.

what elite centers playing today would you be speaking of?

[jlauber]

Once again...

We are not dealing with a 6-10, 240 lb, stumble-bum...which seems to be what many uneducated posters believe Wilt to have been (and just dunking on helpless, skinny, nerdy 6-6 white centers.) Chamberlain would measure at around 7-3, would have that 7-8 wingspan, would weigh between 280 to 300 lbs, would have exceptional athletic abilities, and would be among the most skilled big men in the league. Look, if Shaq, and his 5-8 ft. range could crush the NBA...well, I just have to believe that Wilt would be doing so, as well.

[Holy Random]

That's YOUR opinion, which is based on... NOTHING. Frazier's 75 ppg is obviously not realistic, but it is much closer to reality than a PRIME Chamberlain only scoring 23 ppg in TODAY's NBA, which is LITTERED with inept clods at the center spot.

LOL. So scoring 75ppg is more realistic than 23ppg? A prime Chamberlain playing proper minutes on a much slower team isn't going to do much more than 30ppg. Math 101 tells us that a 45 point differential(30-75) is a lot farther off than a 7 point differential(23-30).

[jlauber]

LOL. So scoring 75ppg is more realistic than 23ppg? A prime Chamberlain playing proper minutes on a much slower team isn't going to do much more than 30ppg. Math 101 tells us that a 45 point differential(30-75) is a lot farther off than a 7 point differential(23-30).

Of course you are right...BUT, I just shake my head at those that just throw out some unsupported numbers. 23-12 as an example. Just what is that based on? Why would a prime Wilt's numbers be cut in half? Today's NBA is not scoring, rebounding, or shooting, at HALF of what Wilt's era was playing at. In terms of scoring, today's NBA is at about 85% of the '62 NBA. Rebounding is at about 70% of a peak season in Wilt's career. And very few of those that discredit Wilt's scoring, based on "pace", will acknowledge that Wilt's era also shot considerably worse, especially in the early 60's. There is simply no way that the best players of Wilt's era, playing today, would be shooting at 40% or below.

But, yes, 30+ ppg is closer to 23 than 75 ppg.

[jlauber]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLe-ZSAHsk

That man is not averaging 75 a game

First of all, that footage was taken from one half of one game in the '67 ECF's, and it was Wilt's WORST game of that series (and one of his worst of the 60's.) He scored 20 points on 8-18 shooting, with 22 rebounds. Where is his game five of that series? 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 13 assists, and 36 rebounds?

But, how about much of this game...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLBXoFJ05ew

Watch the entire 22 minutes of the footage of that game. Wilt was streaking down the floor, and hitting shots from near the FT line. Yes, it was an all-star game, but it certainly showcases his CAPABILITIES. BTW, all he did in that game (and quite a bit of it is not shown) was score 42 points, on 17-23 shooting.

And, while this is a high-light reel, it certainly gives a an idea of Wilt's all-around ability...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak&feature=fvsr

BTW, there are SEVERAL spectacular moves by an aging Wilt on a prime Kareem in the above footage. And, then, watch the last minute or so...just some brilliant passing, as well. Of course, early on in that footage, you can see Wilt's 15+ ft. range.


In any case, there is simply no way you can gauge Wilt's spectacular career on a few minutes of footage from one of his WORST games. I am convinced that we would see a much different Wilt if we just had a few of his 271 40+ point games of his career.

[hammer2010]

You guys are delusional! Just watch the videos. Those cats seem allergic to contact, don't have any intensity or any real athleticism. I used to believe all the Chamberlain legends when I was a kid but with the advent of youtube it is all in plain site. Sadly it was all hype. It is all in plain view to see that basketball in the 60's wasn't what it is today.

That doesn't take away from their greatness cus the game is built on the shoulders of these giants but comparing those players to today's players is foolish. The 60's game just lacked any kind of intensity and sorry to say but I don't think any of those guys could compete physically in today's league. Just watch the lack of contact and I also found it funny that so many rebounds were caught below the rim. :lol

[HiphopRelated]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLe-ZSAHsk

That man is not averaging 75 a game
haha, saw the 1st shot attempt, laughed, and it got worse from there

It may very well have been one of his worse games...but unless you're telling me that everyone had a gentleman's agreement before the game to avoid contact, I'm gonna have to say his game would have been worse in this era

[bagelred]

OK, I watch ESPN Sportscenter all the time, day and night, for years. I've NEVER heard of this "Wilt Chamberlain" guy before. Sounds fake.

[guy]

That's YOUR opinion, which is based on... NOTHING. Frazier's 75 ppg is obviously not realistic, but it is much closer to reality than a PRIME Chamberlain only scoring 23 ppg in TODAY's NBA, which is LITTERED with inept clods at the center spot.

So he'd average 49+ ppg?

[millwad]

Wilt's post game looked so freaking awkward, he dribbled the ball in the post like 3 times per possession, today he'd be stripped right away..

Wilt was a biggot, the guy claimed he slept with 20 000 chicas (Jlauber's mother was one of them) and the guy honestly thought he'd average 70 a game.. HAHA!:facepalm

[jlauber]

So he'd average 49+ ppg?

I already retracted that. BUT, anyone can just randomly pick some numbers out of thin air, and claim that that would be what Chamberlain would average.

And I have yet to see a formula that would break down Wilt's greatest scoring seasons, and somehow come up with 23 ppg. In fact, using simple math, and Wilt, in his greatest scoring season, would average about 40 ppg in today's NBA, and about 46 ppg in MJ's '87 season. How? Once again....simple math... MJ's '87 NBA scored at 92.5% of Wilt's '62, and this past 2011 season was at about 84% of '62.

Here again, it is not about what a prime Chamberlain would actually average, but what he would be CAPABLE of scoring. Depending on his teammates, he could conceivably average 30-35 ppg (maybe even more.) But one thing Wilt proved, was that he could ADAPT to whatever his rosters were, or whatever his coaches asked of him.

Obviously we have no clue on just what his numbers would look like in today's NBA. But, to say that Wilt would be a 23-12 guy just makes no sense. Today's NBA is not played at HALF the pace that it was in Wilt's staggering scoring seasons.

[BlackJoker23]

First of all, that footage was taken from one half of one game in the '67 ECF's, and it was Wilt's WORST game of that series (and one of his worst of the 60's.) He scored 20 points on 8-18 shooting, with 22 rebounds. Where is his game five of that series? 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 13 assists, and 36 rebounds?

But, how about much of this game...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLBXoFJ05ew

Watch the entire 22 minutes of the footage of that game. Wilt was streaking down the floor, and hitting shots from near the FT line. Yes, it was an all-star game, but it certainly showcases his CAPABILITIES. BTW, all he did in that game (and quite a bit of it is not shown) was score 42 points, on 17-23 shooting.

And, while this is a high-light reel, it certainly gives a an idea of Wilt's all-around ability...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak&feature=fvsr

BTW, there are SEVERAL spectacular moves by an aging Wilt on a prime Kareem in the above footage. And, then, watch the last minute or so...just some brilliant passing, as well. Of course, early on in that footage, you can see Wilt's 15+ ft. range.


In any case, there is simply no way you can gauge Wilt's spectacular career on a few minutes of footage from one of his WORST games. I am convinced that we would see a much different Wilt if we just had a few of his 271 40+ point games of his career.
u love guzzling that cvm dont u? i'll phuck u up if i ever see u in real life *******. ur retarded wilt loving ass aint no match for me

[BlackJoker23]

I already retracted that. BUT, anyone can just randomly pick some numbers out of thin air, and claim that that would be what Chamberlain would average.

And I have yet to see a formula that would break down Wilt's greatest scoring seasons, and somehow come up with 23 ppg. In fact, using simple math, and Wilt, in his greatest scoring season, would average about 40 ppg in today's NBA, and about 46 ppg in MJ's '87 season. How? Once again....simple math... MJ's '87 NBA scored at 92.5% of Wilt's '62, and this past 2011 season was at about 84% of '62.

Here again, it is not about what a prime Chamberlain would actually average, but what he would be CAPABLE of scoring. Depending on his teammates, he could conceivably average 30-35 ppg (maybe even more.) But one thing Wilt proved, was that he could ADAPT to whatever his rosters were, or whatever his coaches asked of him.

Obviously we have no clue on just what his numbers would look like in today's NBA. But, to say that Wilt would be a 23-12 guy just makes no sense. Today's NBA is not played at HALF the pace that it was in Wilt's staggering scoring seasons.
shut the phuck up

[jlip]

History repeats itself. As each generation passes, you have the previous generation with the omnipresent "In my day times were so tough we had to walk 10 miles to school uphill barefoot in the snow" stories. Since everything was so tough "back in the day" and everything is so easy today, supposedly they would be better in the present era than they were in the previous era. Those claims have been made about Wilt, and sadly my generation is turning into our parents and saying the same thing about Jordan.

[guy]

I already retracted that. BUT, anyone can just randomly pick some numbers out of thin air, and claim that that would be what Chamberlain would average.

And I have yet to see a formula that would break down Wilt's greatest scoring seasons, and somehow come up with 23 ppg. In fact, using simple math, and Wilt, in his greatest scoring season, would average about 40 ppg in today's NBA, and about 46 ppg in MJ's '87 season. How? Once again....simple math... MJ's '87 NBA scored at 92.5% of Wilt's '62, and this past 2011 season was at about 84% of '62.

Here again, it is not about what a prime Chamberlain would actually average, but what he would be CAPABLE of scoring. Depending on his teammates, he could conceivably average 30-35 ppg (maybe even more.) But one thing Wilt proved, was that he could ADAPT to whatever his rosters were, or whatever his coaches asked of him.

Obviously we have no clue on just what his numbers would look like in today's NBA. But, to say that Wilt would be a 23-12 guy just makes no sense. Today's NBA is not played at HALF the pace that it was in Wilt's staggering scoring seasons.

True. Simple math though doesn't take into account that he also wouldn't play anywhere close to 48.5 mpg. And by the way, if I'm not mistaken, back then weren't FT attempts awarded as 2 out of 3? That makes a pretty significant differenc for such a horrible FT shooter. In this era, teams would definitly incorporate a "hack a Wilt" more often.

[jlauber]

True. Simple math though doesn't take into account that he also wouldn't play anywhere close to 48.5 mpg. And by the way, if I'm not mistaken, back then weren't FT attempts awarded as 2 out of 3? That makes a pretty significant differenc for such a horrible FT shooter. In this era, teams would definitly incorporate a "hack a Wilt" more often.

No, he wouldn't play 48 mpg, but there is also nothing to suggest that he wouldn't be leading the league, year-after-year, in mpg. 42-43 mpg would be very reasonable. Then, as I alluded to earlier, he would naturally be more efficient. The NBA is more efficient today than in the early 60's. And, on top of that, 5-6 mpg rest, game-after-game, would also lead to higher efficiency...especially later in the season.

As for the "3-to-make-2's" (and "2-to-make-1's"), there were also single shot fouls back then, too. So, that discrepancy isn't as great as it might seem. And, in Wilt's highest scoring season, he shot .613 from the line. He had games of 20+ MADE FT's, including a record 28 (out of 32.) In fact, he MADE 835 FTs in that season, which is the second greatest season in NBA history (just behind West's 840 in '65.)

[guy]

No, he wouldn't play 48 mpg, but there is also nothing to suggest that he wouldn't be leading the league, year-after-year, in mpg. 42-43 mpg would be very reasonable. Then, as I alluded to earlier, he would naturally be more efficient. The NBA is more efficient today than in the early 60's. And, on top of that, 5-6 mpg rest, game-after-game, would also lead to higher efficiency...especially later in the season.

As for the "3-to-make-2's" (and "2-to-make-1's"), there were also single shot fouls back then, too. So, that discrepancy isn't as great as it might seem. And, in Wilt's highest scoring season, he shot .613 from the line. He had games of 20+ MADE FT's, including a record 28 (out of 32.) In fact, he MADE 835 FTs in that season, which is the second greatest season in NBA history (just behind West's 840 in '65.)

Single shot fouls for what? 2 to make 1s for what? Just curious.

[jlauber]

Single shot fouls for what? 2 to make 1s for what? Just curious.

Non-shooting fouls, committed before the penalty (five fouls) were awarded just one FT. 2-for-1's were awarded on made baskets after the penalty situation.

[millwad]

No, he wouldn't play 48 mpg, but there is also nothing to suggest that he wouldn't be leading the league, year-after-year, in mpg. 42-43 mpg would be very reasonable. Then, as I alluded to earlier, he would naturally be more efficient. The NBA is more efficient today than in the early 60's. And, on top of that, 5-6 mpg rest, game-after-game, would also lead to higher efficiency...especially later in the season.

As for the "3-to-make-2's" (and "2-to-make-1's"), there were also single shot fouls back then, too. So, that discrepancy isn't as great as it might seem. And, in Wilt's highest scoring season, he shot .613 from the line. He had games of 20+ MADE FT's, including a record 28 (out of 32.) In fact, he MADE 835 FTs in that season, which is the second greatest season in NBA history (just behind West's 840 in '65.)

Wilt shot FT's like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITxDdnzpnU8

He is one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time, PERIOD. And he sucked ass in the regular season when it came to FT's but he even got worse in the playoffs, he only made 46% of his FT's in the playoffs which is just PATHETIC.

[Pointguard]

Single shot fouls for what? 2 to make 1s for what? Just curious.

If you got fouled after a shot - like today's the traditional three point play - you could have 2 chances at the foul line to make that one shot.

I think the single shot foul if you did the hack a shaq or fouled somebody without the ball. You would get the ball back too.

[guy]

Non-shooting fouls, committed before the penalty (five fouls) were awarded just one FT. 2-for-1's were awarded on made baskets after the penalty situation.

So wait a minute. Let me get this straight.

3-for-2 FTs: Shooting fouls on missed baskets
3-for-2 FTs: Non-shooting fouls after penalty situation
2-for-1 FTs: Shooting fouls on made baskets after penalty situation
1 FT: Shooting fouls on made baskets before penalty situation
1 FT: Non-shooting fouls before penalty situation

Is that correct?

[Pointguard]

True. Simple math though doesn't take into account that he also wouldn't play anywhere close to 48.5 mpg. And by the way, if I'm not mistaken, back then weren't FT attempts awarded as 2 out of 3? That makes a pretty significant differenc for such a horrible FT shooter. In this era, teams would definitly incorporate a "hack a Wilt" more often.

In this era there are more free throw shooting coaches and the science of it is a little better as well. They also have better basket-balls and most venues have heating that actually works. Plus he would be able to see a psychologist about it as well.

[millwad]

In this era there are more free throw shooting coaches and the science of it is a little better as well. They also have better basket-balls and most venues have heating that actually works. Plus he would be able to see a psychologist about it as well.

Psychologist for what? The man didn't have the technique to make the FT's, he wasn't no Nick Anderson..

[Pointguard]

Psychologist for what? The man didn't have the technique to make the FT's, he wasn't no Nick Anderson..
I think there was a mental block in Wilt's case. He would work at it and it would get progressively worse. For me, shooting a fall away bank shot from 15 feet is a lot harder, so I believe he had the touch.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

I think there was a mental block in Wilt's case. He would work at it and it would get progressively worse. For me, shooting a fall away bank shot from 15 feet is a lot harder, so I believe he had the touch.

Well it depends. There are guys like Bruce Bowen who were great 3 point shooters but bad-average FT shooters. I get your point though

[stephanieg]

He could average 75 against Bargs.

[Pointguard]

Well it depends. There are guys like Bruce Bowen who were great 3 point shooters but bad-average FT shooters. I get your point though

I hear you. I find it interesting that Tim Duncan also could hit 15 footers off of the glass and couldn't shoot free throws. Very few guys in the history of the league could consistently hit 15 foot bank shots. Its really hard to do. I tend to believe that some people are better kinetically, or in motion, than they are from a stale position. Once things slow down you start thinking of the mechanics of how the ball roles off of your fingers and such.

[Vienceslav]

Prime Shaq numbers, he was not better than Shaq(vice versa).
Lol@75 a game. :D

[ShaqAttack3234]

Prime Wilt in the type of role he'd be most effective in would probably be a 20-22 ppg, 14-15 rpg, 3-4 apg, 3-4 bpg, 58-60 FG% type player. Which is obviously very good.

If he was looking to score more, then maybe around 25 ppg give or take, though I don't see the scoring ability to score like Shaq or Hakeem. And it doesn't seem that Wilt's teams benefited as much from him as a big scorer as they did when he played like he did in '67 or '68.

[guy]

In this era there are more free throw shooting coaches and the science of it is a little better as well. They also have better basket-balls and most venues have heating that actually works. Plus he would be able to see a psychologist about it as well.

Free throw % isn't that much better today then it was back then. Its like 75%-77% as opposed to 72%-75%. Thats like .03-.05 more ppg per FT. For a player that takes 10 FTs per game, thats like .3-.5 ppg.

[guy]

So wait a minute. Let me get this straight.

3-for-2 FTs: Shooting fouls on missed baskets
3-for-2 FTs: Non-shooting fouls after penalty situation
2-for-1 FTs: Shooting fouls on made baskets after penalty situation
1 FT: Shooting fouls on made baskets before penalty situation
1 FT: Non-shooting fouls before penalty situation

Is that correct?

Can someone answer this? I'm asking this because that means if a player was fouled 5 times in each of those situations, he gets up to 10 FTAs to make 7, while in today's game in the same situation he would only get 6 FTAs to make all 6. Thats a huge difference.

[bizil]

There is no question Wilt would be awesome today. Especially with the lack of true centers. Wilt is bigger AND more skilled than Dwight Howard for example. And would be just as strong or maybe even stronger. If anything, it would have been interesting to see Wilt right in the middle of the era with Ewing, Hakeem, DRob, Mutumbo, Zo, and Shaq. Or before that how about Moses? U even had centers around that time like Daugherty, Smits, Sabonis, and Divac who would be top five centers today. Wilt would murder the centers of today other than Howard. But I feel Wilt would be even better than Howard. The guys from the 90's era would have been some epic duels.

[Clippersfan86]

I hear you. I find it interesting that Tim Duncan also could hit 15 footers off of the glass and couldn't shoot free throws. Very few guys in the history of the league could consistently hit 15 foot bank shots. Its really hard to do. I tend to believe that some people are better kinetically, or in motion, than they are from a stale position. Once things slow down you start thinking of the mechanics of how the ball roles off of your fingers and such.

I can speak on this because it applies for me. I shoot better on the move and when contested than I do planted or wide open. It's because like you suggested people start thinking too much on shots. I play better off natural instincts and muscle memory.

[Cangri]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLe-ZSAHsk
@ 0.42 seconds

In today's era that's Wilt showing his "post moves" against Varejao.

:roll:

[Cangri]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLe-ZSAHsk

@ 3:52
And here's Wilt getting rejected by a shttier version of Varejao:

[L8kersfan222]

I can speak on this because it applies for me. I shoot better on the move and when contested than I do planted or wide open. It's because like you suggested people start thinking too much on shots. I play better off natural instincts and muscle memory.


looool chucker l2p

[Pointguard]

Prime Wilt in the type of role he'd be most effective in would probably be a 20-22 ppg, 14-15 rpg, 3-4 apg, 3-4 bpg, 58-60 FG% type player. Which is obviously very good.

If he was looking to score more, then maybe around 25 ppg give or take, though I don't see the scoring ability to score like Shaq or Hakeem. And it doesn't seem that Wilt's teams benefited as much from him as a big scorer as they did when he played like he did in '67 or '68.

Wilt was a natural scorer with a touch and maintained it for more than 5 years. I think Kareem was the only other natural scorer with a touch at center (McAdoo too). Hakeem would have been if he played as a kid. IMO, most of his years he was more so a learned and super-skilled scorer to me much like DH - tho DH is not super-skilled. Once Hakeem mastered his moves and only in his prime, his four big years, he did become a natural scorer. Natural scorers are extremely rare; AI, Kobe, Jordan, Durant - are guys that are very resourceful and they would be getting 25ppg as second nature. Shaq was a natural beast - separate category.

Very few guys can score in the upper echelons of the league consistently. Those guys could go into other eras and still score because its second nature to them. They are like guys that naturally go to the boards. Rarely do you find guys that can just turn it on and consistently lead the league in rebounds either. But Wilt had separation unlike anybody. You have to have a scorer's mentality to be like Wilt and just like everything else in life, if you have the consciousness and ability you will do better than those who are out there without the mentality or second nature to convert. To go at it harder than anybody else is also an extremely rare quality. Wilt took it personal when guys outrebounded or outscored him. Its a certain mentality that made these guys great scorers. They would have found a way.

DH who scored 22 points per game hasn't mastered his craft, hasn't shown the scoring mentality thru a whole year yet, doesn't take anything personal, isn't near being a top notch scorer, isn't very skilled, the rookie Blake Griffin is more polished, better and more prolific in the post and you saying Wilt will be in their class? You are off in your estimates.

[Smoke117]

Senile old men say silly things.

[Pointguard]

I can speak on this because it applies for me. I shoot better on the move and when contested than I do planted or wide open. It's because like you suggested people start thinking too much on shots. I play better off natural instincts and muscle memory.
True, when things slow down I started to see people in the arena as well.

[millwad]

Wilt was a natural scorer with a touch and maintained it for more than 5 years. I think Kareem was the only other natural scorer with a touch at center (McAdoo too). Hakeem would have been if he played as a kid. IMO, most of his years he was more so a learned and super-skilled scorer to me much like DH - tho DH is not super-skilled. Once Hakeem mastered his moves and only in his prime, his four big years, he did become a natural scorer. Natural scorers are extremely rare; AI, Kobe, Jordan, Durant - are guys that are very resourceful and they would be getting 25ppg as second nature. Shaq was a natural beast - separate category.


That's just not true at all, Hakeem had way better touch than what Wilt had, that's just not even funny. Offensively Hakeem was more skilled than Wilt, no doubt. Kareem is untouchable and he had the greatest touch ever for a center but Wilt did not have better touch than Hakeem, that is a pure insult.

The same Hakeem has the highest points per game average among centers in the playoffs and he did it on better FG% than Wilt so don't give me that. Hakeem was superskilled when it came to scoring.

[millwad]

<f
@ 0.42 seconds

In today's era that's Wilt showing his "post moves" against Varejao.

:roll:

I've seen plenty of Wilt post-ups looking like that, it's just extremely slow and he looks unskilled when he takes his baby dribbles.

[Darius]

Watching the posted videos I think it unlikely Wilt would be a star-level player in todays league.

Look at how mechanical and awkward his moves look!

Likewise, it isn't just a measure of who he was matched again on D, it was also the guards that would be harrassing him.

In the current NBA if you get the ball in the post you don't have time to make 3 slow dribbles and put up a shot. You have a 6'9" SF digging the ball out of your hands as soon as you get it.

[cuad]

In my professional opinion, it's the short shorts and the film quality that make people think players couldn't play today. The baggier shorts make players look more athletic. In shorter shorts, the players looked gangly, awkward and mechanical. Michael Jordan looked gangly and awkward. Players still move that way, but the baggy shorts hide it. They should go back to 90s length shorts. I've got to find a source for the 2007 short shorts Lakers-Celtics game, that would probably prove what I'm saying.

The film make the players look like they run like little girls. The low resolution and color also make a difference. Look at old footage of a 50s science lab. The instruments look like old crazy stone age stuff, but if you walked into that lab IRL, even in 2011, you wouldn't feel like anything was out of place. Or maybe you've seen old footage of cars and how stupid they looked moving around, and the street looks so gimpy, but if you went out to the actual street, a lot of the infrastructure would be the same.

[Big#50]

That ****ing robot would be lucky to score ten points a game. Honestly, I see no skills.

[Jon_Koncak]

That ****ing robot would be lucky to score ten points a game. Honestly, I see no skills.

Noah scores more than 10 per game and he has no skills whatsoever.

[millwad]

In my professional opinion, it's the short shorts and the film quality that make people think players couldn't play today. The baggier shorts make players look more athletic. In shorter shorts, the players looked gangly, awkward and mechanical. Michael Jordan looked gangly and awkward. Players still move that way, but the baggy shorts hide it. They should go back to 90s length shorts. I've got to find a source for the 2007 short shorts Lakers-Celtics game, that would probably prove what I'm saying.

The film make the players look like they run like little girls. The low resolution and color also make a difference. Look at old footage of a 50s science lab. The instruments look like old crazy stone age stuff, but if you walked into that lab IRL, even in 2011, you wouldn't feel like anything was out of place. Or maybe you've seen old footage of cars and how stupid they looked moving around, and the street looks so gimpy, but if you went out to the actual street, a lot of the infrastructure would be the same.

Haha, you're awesome!:applause:

[JMT]

These threads get worse and worse. What a bunch of know-nothing shit for brains.

Chamberlain would be the best center in the game today and it wouldn't even be as close as it was in his era. Howard, the acknowledged best at the position today, is Nate Thurmond revisited.

[Pointguard]

That's just not true at all, Hakeem had way better touch than what Wilt had, that's just not even funny. Offensively Hakeem was more skilled than Wilt, no doubt. Kareem is untouchable and he had the greatest touch ever for a center but Wilt did not have better touch than Hakeem, that is a pure insult.

The same Hakeem has the highest points per game average among centers in the playoffs and he did it on better FG% than Wilt so don't give me that. Hakeem was superskilled when it came to scoring.

I said Hakeem was all of that but only for four years in his career. Had he played when he was younger it wouldn't have taken him 9 years to mature into that type of player. He wasn't naturally that type of player or 13 years out of his 17 year career he wasn't a natural scorer or an upper echelon scorer. It started late for Hakeem, no other way to put it. He had a crazy touch and had everything when he peaked, but it took awhile for him to get there and then it was kind of late.

As far as the other stuff Hakeem never got a scoring title, was never really close - much less get any separation from other players. In his best years there were times when even David Robinson outscored him and David wasn't really skilled or refined in the post. Akeem had great skills and I am the one who said he was superskilled but he wasn't a long stay near the top or ever a top dog. Wilt had long time separation as top dog and nobody has come close to that type of separation.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

The game has changed but I still feel that Wilt would be a dominant big man today. Because some of his teams under-acheived Wilt has gotten a bad rap. Dude was god like.

[millwad]

I said Hakeem was all of that but only for four years in his career. Had he played when he was younger it wouldn't have taken him 9 years to mature into that type of player. He wasn't naturally that type of player or 13 years out of his 17 year career he wasn't a natural scorer or an upper echelon scorer. It started late for Hakeem, no other way to put it. He had a crazy touch and had everything when he peaked, but it took awhile for him to get there and then it was kind of late.

Pure nonsense again.
It took him 9 years to become the best player in the league but either you didn't saw him play or you just don't want to give him any credit. And he gets easily forgotten due playing with horrible teammates after Sampson left and because of that his teams went no where in the playoffs. Hakeem was a great scorer with great touch in the 80's as well.

Hakeem was a beast offensively earlier than '94 too. 2nd year pro Akeem Olajuwon led Rocket team in scoring and he abused the Lakers in the playoffs and scored on them at will. The guy in his freaking 2nd year as a pro averaged 26.9 points per game on 53% shooting in the playoffs. He had a great touch and he was a skilled offensive player back then too, cut this nonsense.



As far as the other stuff Hakeem never got a scoring title, was never really close - much less get any separation from other players. In his best years there were times when even David Robinson outscored him and David wasn't really skilled or refined in the post. Akeem had great skills and I am the one who said he was superskilled but he wasn't a long stay near the top or ever a top dog. Wilt had long time separation as top dog and nobody has come close to that type of separation.

Wilt didn't have the offensive skills Hakeem had or the touch, he scored like crazy because of the era. Watch the guy play and then compare it to Hakeem, it's like night and day. And Wilt never won crap when he statpadded, he won twice during his career with crazy good teammates while first averaging 21 points in the '67 run and then 14.7 points in the '72 run. Hakeem won while averaging 27.9 points per game in the playoffs in '94 and in the playoffs of '95 he averaged 33 points per game when he led his Rocket teams to the title.

And it's still a fact that Hakeem in the playoffs not only averaged 25.9 points per game which is the highest ppg average for any center in NBA history in the playoffs, he also shot with a higher FG% than Wilt.

And regarding Wilt's scoring titles, too bad he both dropped in FG% and that he dropped 7 points in scoring average in the playoffs. Hakeem both averaged more points and he did it on better FG%..

[swi7ch]

You guys know that Wilt was horrible at free throw shooting, right? Would've given him 15-20 more pts if he shot anywhere near 75-80% in his career.

[millwad]

You guys know that Wilt was horrible at free throw shooting, right? Would've given him 15-20 more pts if he shot anywhere near 75-80% in his career.

How could it have given him 15-20 more points when he only missed 5.6 FT's per game as an average?

[Rooster]

No he won't.

In his era, he was taller and bigger and stronger than everyone else.

After 4 years, he never average more than 30 points in the playoffs.

I believed Kareem would do more in today's game.

[Pointguard]

Pure nonsense again.
It took him 9 years to become the best player in the league but either you didn't saw him play or you just don't want to give him any credit. And he gets easily forgotten due playing with horrible teammates after Sampson left and because of that his teams went no where in the playoffs. Hakeem was a great scorer with great touch in the 80's as well.
He was not a great scorer in the 80's (English, Bird, Jordan, Dominique, Malone) to be great you have to crack the top three or the top five at some point and he wasn't close. We're talking about scoring. Even in the 90's he was behind Shaq, Jordan and Malone in scoring. But he was super accomplished and the most skilled man on the block... but we are talking about scoring.



Hakeem was a beast offensively earlier than '94 too. 2nd year pro Akeem Olajuwon led Rocket team in scoring and he abused the Lakers in the playoffs and scored on them at will. The guy in his freaking 2nd year as a pro averaged 26.9 points per game on 53% shooting in the playoffs. He had a great touch and he was a skilled offensive player back then too, cut this nonsense.

I think you forgot the topic?



Wilt didn't have the offensive skills Hakeem had or the touch, he scored like crazy because of the era. Watch the guy play and then compare it to Hakeem, it's like night and day. And Wilt never won crap when he statpadded, he won twice during his career with crazy good teammates while first averaging 21 points in the '67 run and then 14.7 points in the '72 run. Hakeem won while averaging 27.9 points per game in the playoffs in '94 and in the playoffs of '95 he averaged 33 points per game when he led his Rocket teams to the title.

Why are you talking about this? Read the title. This is irrelevant, sideshow stuff. You are talking to yourself.



And it's still a fact that Hakeem in the playoffs not only averaged 25.9 points per game which is the highest ppg average for any center in NBA history in the playoffs, he also shot with a higher FG% than Wilt.

And regarding Wilt's scoring titles, too bad he both dropped in FG% and that he dropped 7 points in scoring average in the playoffs. Hakeem both averaged more points and he did it on better FG%..
Once again guy... this isn't about that. I couldn't care less. I like Akeem. You're off topic.

[millwad]

He was not a great scorer in the 80's (English, Bird, Jordan, Dominique, Malone) to be great you have to crack the top three or the top five at some point and he wasn't close. We're talking about scoring. Even in the 90's he was behind Shaq, Jordan and Malone in scoring. But he was super accomplished and the most skilled man on the block... but we are talking about scoring.



I think you forgot the topic?


Why are you talking about this? Read the title. This is irrelevant, sideshow stuff. You are talking to yourself.


Once again guy... this isn't about that. I couldn't care less. I like Akeem. You're off topic.


I mixed up this thread and the "Top 10 center"-thread, my bad! Well, I'm not gonna ruin this thread with off topic comments but lets agree on that we disagree. :cheers:

[PHILA]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Wilt would be amongst the elite Centers playing today. He wouldn't post anywhere near his career numbers, but I could see him posting anywhere from 15-25 ppg, depending on the situation, and he would certainly be one of the top rebounders in the league as well.
what elite centers playing today would you be speaking of? No kidding. We've got one elite center out of 30 diluted teams. The gap between him and whoever #2 may be is enormous.

[PHILA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLe-ZSAHsk

@ 3:52
And here's Wilt getting rejected by a shttier version of Varejao:That's Chet "The Jet" Walker, who would be the top SF in the league today only after LeBron. The shittier version of Varejao is John "Hondo" Havlicek, who would be the #1 perimeter defender today. Though the way voting is done nowadays I don't know if he'd make All NBA 1st Team Defense.

[G-train]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLe-ZSAHsk

@ 3:52
And here's Wilt getting rejected by a shttier version of Varejao:

fail :oldlol:

[ashlar]

Wilt Chamberlain on his best day in today's game would be mutombo. Honestly how can anyone with 2 eyes and at least a semi functioning brain can even say that Wilt would be dominant in today's NBA game.

[jlauber]

Pure nonsense again.
It took him 9 years to become the best player in the league but either you didn't saw him play or you just don't want to give him any credit. And he gets easily forgotten due playing with horrible teammates after Sampson left and because of that his teams went no where in the playoffs. Hakeem was a great scorer with great touch in the 80's as well.

Hakeem was a beast offensively earlier than '94 too. 2nd year pro Akeem Olajuwon led Rocket team in scoring and he abused the Lakers in the playoffs and scored on them at will. The guy in his freaking 2nd year as a pro averaged 26.9 points per game on 53% shooting in the playoffs. He had a great touch and he was a skilled offensive player back then too, cut this nonsense.



Wilt didn't have the offensive skills Hakeem had or the touch, he scored like crazy because of the era. Watch the guy play and then compare it to Hakeem, it's like night and day. And Wilt never won crap when he statpadded, he won twice during his career with crazy good teammates while first averaging 21 points in the '67 run and then 14.7 points in the '72 run. Hakeem won while averaging 27.9 points per game in the playoffs in '94 and in the playoffs of '95 he averaged 33 points per game when he led his Rocket teams to the title.

And it's still a fact that Hakeem in the playoffs not only averaged 25.9 points per game which is the highest ppg average for any center in NBA history in the playoffs, he also shot with a higher FG% than Wilt.

And regarding Wilt's scoring titles, too bad he both dropped in FG% and that he dropped 7 points in scoring average in the playoffs. Hakeem both averaged more points and he did it on better FG%..

Hakeem more SKILLED than Wilt? POSSIBLY. I would argue that Elgin Baylor and Oscar were more SKILLED than Hakeem. They were better rebounders for their positions. Better scorers. And better range. So what?

Wilt was MUCH taller, bigger, stronger, longer, faster, and able to leap much higher. Furthermore, Shaq had less range than either. I would easily take Wilt and Shaq over Hakeem...even with his "better touch.":facepalm

And get off of that STUPID "Hakeem was a better scorer and shooter in the post-season" nonsense. Wilt, at his PEAK in the post-season, was a considerably greater scorer. He averaged 32 ppg in his first SIX post-seasons...COMBINED. And he outshot the LEAGUE AVERAGE by a FAR greater margin than Hakeem did (wilt played in league that shot between .410 to .456, while Hakeem played in leagues that shot .437 to .492). BTW, find me a post-season in which Wilt shot .443, or, get this... .394.

And how about their efficiency in their Finals? Hakeem shot .488 in his THREE Finals. Wilt shot .560 in his SIX. And did Hakeem ever shoot .625 in his Finals? In fact, Wilt never shot less than 50% in his Finals. Hakeem barely shot 50% in one, and .479 in another. And, he was outshot by Shaq in one by a .595 to .483 margin.

And even more laughable...Hakeem's highest scoring and rebounding post-season? Came in a four game series, and in which his team was, as USUAL, knocked out in the FIRST ROUND.

The reality was...Wilt was a FAR greater scorer, rebounder, efficient shooter, and defender. He even MADE MORE FTs than Hakeem. His IMPACT at the FT line was greater than Hakeem's. So, there was NO area in which Hakeem has a case over Wilt.

Wilt even had FAR greater TEAM success.

[PHILA]

Wilt Chamberlain on his best day in today's game would be mutombo. Honestly how can anyone with 2 eyes and at least a semi functioning brain can even say that Wilt would be dominant in today's NBA game.
How often could Deke perform a step through as shown below in such a graceful manner. :no:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWyu7DXdo1Y#t=1m57s



Can Deke perform a swift face up move like this? (Slow motion vid) After receiving the inbounds pass outside the paint, Wilt is at the rim in one step.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUjYzeVZvRM#t=0m40s


Of course in the eyes of today's fans, any big who does not routinely go up & under or swivel their hips en-route to a dream shake has mediocre footwork.

[ShaqAttack3234]

DH who scored 22 points per game hasn't mastered his craft, hasn't shown the scoring mentality thru a whole year yet, doesn't take anything personal, isn't near being a top notch scorer, isn't very skilled, the rookie Blake Griffin is more polished, better and more prolific in the post and you saying Wilt will be in their class? You are off in your estimates.

Howard definitely has a better post game than Griffin. And where do you get the idea that Howard isn't skilled? He doesn't jump higher than he did when he was averaging 12.5 ppg as a rookie and he isn't much bigger than when he averaged 17.6 ppg in '07. He averaged 23 ppg last season because of his improved skills.

Howard has good footwork, a very good left hand and he uses the glass well. If you watched Dwight as much as I do then you'd notice how regularly he makes nice spin moves and jump hooks with either hand whether it's off the glass or not. He's also become good at getting position and going up quicker with the short jump hook off the glass, a lot like Shaq in his prime.

Though I don't think Howard is a natural scorer like Shaq or Hakeem. In fact among big men who could be considered centers, Ewing might be the only other guy who fits that definition since the 90's, and he obviously wasn't as good as Shaq or Hakeem offensively, or even solely as a scorer.

I don't think that was really Duncan's games, or Robinson, Mourning and Howard for that matter. Those guys are at their best in the low 20 ppg range and I don't think are/were suited to carry a team averaging 25-30 ppg in the playoffs.

And as I've said many times, scoring is the least impressive part of Wilt's game to me, and I consider it largely a product of his era. He was great at other things and helped his team much more as a shot blocker, post defender(later in his career), rebounder, passer and finisher, imo.

I don't get why you're so hell bent on trying to change my opinion on that.

[Simple Jack]

It's really a shame how people with no ability to analyze the game are so quick to decide that having insane athleticism means you aren't skilled. It's been attributed to LeBron his whole career, and now it's happening with Dwight. I heard the same garbage about Wilt and Russell too.

[jlauber]

Chamberlain hung two games of 60+ in his 68-69 season...in a season in which he averaged 14 FGAs, and in a league that averaged 112.3 ppg. One of them was a 66 point game, on 29-35 shooting, which is the most efficient 60+ point game in NBA history (.829 shooting.)

BTW, that 66 point game came on the eve of an SI article that hit the newstands the very next day...in which the writer claimed that Wilt could no longer score. Truly one of SI's most embarrassing moments. In fact, beginning with that game, over the course of 17 straight games, Wilt averaged 31 ppg, including a 35 point game on Russell, which was his highest against him since his 46 point game in the clinching game five loss of the '66 ECF's.

Of course, Wilt's COACH, perhaps the most incompetent coach in the history of the game, once again shackled Wilt in the playoffs that season. PHILA dug up one of his classic quotes..."When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch." So, instead, Van Breda Kolf preferred an aging, and rapidly declining Baylor to shoot. The result? Baylor shot .385 in the playoffs that season, including three straight games in the Finals in which he scored a TOTAL of 24 points (two of those games were losses BTW...one by one point.) Yet, guess who was blamed for LA losing in seven games?

For all of those that claim that Wilt's numbers were distorted...one can only wonder what they would have looked like over the course of a full season in the 69-70 season. His new coach, Joe Mullaney, asked that Wilt become the focal point of the offense before the year began (hmmm, what a novel idea.) Unlike the boob Van Breda Kolf, Mullaney believed that the aged Laker team needed Chamberlain to return to his dominant scoring in order for them to win.

How did the 33 year old Wilt respond? In his first nine games, he averaged 32.2 ppg, 20 rpg, and was shooting an eye-popping .600 from the field. He had games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points in those nine games (and in his 33 point game, he had gone 13-13 from the floor.) Oh, and BTW, he faced rookie Kareem in one of those games, as well. In that game, all Wilt did was outscore Kareem, 25-23; outrebound Abdul Jabbar, 25-20; outassist Kareem, 5-2; outblock the Buck, 3-2; and outshot Kareem, 9-14 to 9-21 (.643 to .429.)

Unfortunately, Wilt shredded his knee in that ninth game (again, the 33 point game on 13-13 shooting.) He was never quite the same after that, but incredibly, he came back from that injury WAY ahead of even the most optomistic medical opinion, and while he was nowhere near 100%, all he did was lead his team back from a 3-1 deficit in the first round (with TWO 30+ scoring games); and then a sweep of the favored Hawks. Then, he took his heavy underdog Lakers to a game seven, in which the rest of his teammates, including "Mr. Clutch" choked, against the 60-22 Knicks. Included in that series was a monster "must-win" game six performance of 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, (and with 27 rebounds.) Even in the clinching game seven loss, he had a 21 point, on 10-16 shooting, 24 rebound game. For the series, Chamberlain put up the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 shooting from the floor.) And all of it came only four months after major knee surgery. Who was blamed for that series loss? You guessed it.

How about his 70-71 season? Arguably his WORST. He was 34 years old, and a year removed from that surgery. He averaged 20.7 ppg on .545 shooting, which would be great numbers for nearly anyone else who has ever played the game...but they were among Chamberlain's worst. On top of that, Wilt averaged a career LOW, 18.2 rpg. Even his playoff numbers were well under his career numbers. He "only" averaged 18.3 ppg, on a career playoff low .455 shooting, and with a career playoff low 20.2 rpg.

In the meantime, Kareem exploded in that season (his second.) He averaged a league-leading 31.7 ppg (his second highest season of his career), along with 16.0 rpg (his third best season of his career), and on .577 shooting. That .577, as great as it was, was even more remarkable, too. It came in a league that shot .449. So, his .128 margin over the league was his BEST season of his career (and one of the all-time greatest "non-Wilt" differentials...who was the KING at those margins.)

Then, in the playoffs, Kareem averaged 26.6 ppg, 17.0 rpg, and shot .515. Those were not Kareem's best post-season numbers, but considering that they were achieved against Thurmond, Unseld, and... Wilt...well, it might very well have been his greatest post-season.

All-in-all, and IMHO, that was Kareem's greatest season. He won the MVP award, and then went on to win the FMVP.

What is the significance of all of that you ask? Here was Chamberlain, at age 34, playing on a surgically repaired knee, and NOWHERE NEAR a PRIME Wilt...and in arguably his WORST season. And a Kareem, who was at his statistical peak, and including the post-season, in his greatest season of his career.

The two met TEN times in that 70-71 season (five in the regular season, and five in the post-season)...and here were their H2H numbers: Kareem outscored Wilt, per game, 26-23; while Wilt outrebounded Kareem, per game, 18-16; and Chamberlain significantly outshot Abdul Jabbar, as well, by a .490 to .454 margin. Their H2H playoff numbers were nearly identical, too. Kareem outscored Wilt, per game, 25-22, while Wilt outrebounded him, per game, 19-17; and outshot Kareem, .489 to .481.

Now, you could make a case that Kareem was not at his physical peak, and perhaps not at his skilled peak, but it was certainly among his greatest overall seasons, if not his greatest. And while he was only in his second season, it must be mentioned that he played all four years of college. Meanwhile, Chamberlain was CLEARLY nowhere near his physical, statistical, and skilled peak. And yet, THAT Wilt was able to battle THAT Kareem to a complete draw.

What's more, and as I have mentioned many times, Kareem went on to dominate the decade of the 70's, and he was even among the best players in the 80's. My god, at age 38, he had two games within a short span, in which he outscored Hakeem, 46-18, and outscored Ewing, 40-9. Here was Kareem, at age 38, and who could barely jump or run, averaging 33 ppg on a mind-boggling .634 FG% in five H2H games against a 23 year-old Hakeem (and keep in mind just how dominant Kareem was at age 23...in that 70-71 season.)

Furthermore, a PRIME Kareem faced the likes of Reed, Bellamy, and Thurmond, MANY times. Yet, he never came CLOSE to dominating those three guys to the extent that a PRIME Chamberlain did. My god, a PRIME Wilt had an entire SEASON in which he averaged 40 ppg against Reed. And in his career against Willis, he had THREE games of 50+ points, including a high game of 58. And a PRIME Wilt had an entire SEASON of averaging 55 ppg against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy. And in his career H2H's against Bellamy, Wilt had THREE games of 60+ points against him, including a staggering high game of 73 points.

And a PRIME "scoring" Wilt only faced Nate Thurmond in a dozen, or so, H2H games. BUT, in that short span, he managed to hang several 30+ games on Nate, including one game in which he murdered Thurmond...outscoring him by a 45-13 margin.

Once again, Kareem faced Reed, Bellamy, and Thurmond many times. He never came CLOSE to putting up the numbers that a PRIME Chamberlain did against those guys. In fact, Kareem battled Thurmond in some 50+ H2H games (and many in which Thurmond was well past his peak), and yet, his HIGH game against Thurmond was only 34 points. In fact, he not only seldom scored 30+ against Thurmond, he probably shot under .450 against him in those 50 H2H games. He even had two straight playoff series, including one in his greatest statistical regular season (71-72), of 22.8 ppg and 22.8 ppg on .405 and .428 shooting against Nate.

Oh, and BTW, and back to Wilt's 68-69 season. Once again, Wilt plastered Jim Fox and Connie Dierking with games of 66 and 60 points (and in a span of several days) that season. What is the significance of that? Kareem came into the league the very next season, and he faced those two centers on numerous occasions in his career. But, where were the 60+ point games by Kareem against them? Kareem's career high game was 55 points. And, yet a Wilt, way past his peak, was hanging games of 60+ on the same centers that Kareem would face the very next year, and never came close to approaching against them.

So, while so many here diminish Wilt's great scoring seasons because of pace, how do they explain a 32 year-old Wilt, when he was being ripped for "no longer being able to score"...and then going on a 17 straight game rampage of 31 ppg; and then at the beginning of the very next season, averaging over 32 ppg (and on 60% shooting) over the course of his first nine games, before going down with that knee injury (and then having a 23-24-.625 Finals on ONE leg)? And how do they explain Wilt hanging TWO 60+ point games, (in a year in which he hardly shot the ball), and yet, a Kareem who joined the league the very next year, couldn't achieve a 60 point game in his entire 20 year career (and playing against MANY of the SAME centers that Wilt faced)?

If a well-past his prime Wilt was capable of doing that...it certainly gives his much higher scoring seasons, achieved in his PRIME, a lot more credibility.

[jlauber]

That ****ing robot would be lucky to score ten points a game. Honestly, I see no skills.



=Ashlar]Wilt Chamberlain on his best day in today's game would be mutombo. Honestly how can anyone with 2 eyes and at least a semi functioning brain can even say that Wilt would be dominant in today's NBA game.

hmmm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak&feature=fvsr

Now I don't see how anyone with two eyes and at least a semi-functioning brain can say that THAT Wilt would NOT be dominant in today's NBA.

Keep in mind that THAT Chamberlain was 7-2, and would measure at 7-3 in shoes. He was between 280-300 lbs. He was regarded as not only the strongest player in the game...but there were those that claimed he was among the strongest athletes in the WORLD. And THAT Wilt was a SPRINTER in college.

And THAT Wilt was a part-time high-jump CHAMPION in college. In fact his coach set up a 12 ft. basket at KU while Wilt was there, and there are articles claiming that Wilt was dunking on it. The NCAA (and the NBA) banned the dunking of FT's BECAUSE of Wilt.

And THAT Wilt had a LEGITIMATE 7'-8" wingspan (as measured before the near-Ali fight.)

So, THAT Wilt...and with THOSE skills in that video...at 7-3, 300 lbs, with track speed and verticals, would EASILY dominate in TODAY's NBA. The REAL question would be...what would he be capable of shelling today's centers with?

[NoName22]

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2963000/AlphaWolf-2963314_1611_930.jpg

[Pointguard]

Howard definitely has a better post game than Griffin. And where do you get the idea that Howard isn't skilled? He doesn't jump higher than he did when he was averaging 12.5 ppg as a rookie and he isn't much bigger than when he averaged 17.6 ppg in '07. He averaged 23 ppg last season because of his improved skills.

Howard has good footwork, a very good left hand and he uses the glass well. If you watched Dwight as much as I do then you'd notice how regularly he makes nice spin moves and jump hooks with either hand whether it's off the glass or not. He's also become good at getting position and going up quicker with the short jump hook off the glass, a lot like Shaq in his prime.

Though I don't think Howard is a natural scorer like Shaq or Hakeem. In fact among big men who could be considered centers, Ewing might be the only other guy who fits that definition since the 90's, and he obviously wasn't as good as Shaq or Hakeem offensively, or even solely as a scorer.

I don't think that was really Duncan's games, or Robinson, Mourning and Howard for that matter. Those guys are at their best in the low 20 ppg range and I don't think are/were suited to carry a team averaging 25-30 ppg in the playoffs.

And as I've said many times, scoring is the least impressive part of Wilt's game to me, and I consider it largely a product of his era. He was great at other things and helped his team much more as a shot blocker, post defender(later in his career), rebounder, passer and finisher, imo.

I don't get why you're so hell bent on trying to change my opinion on that.

Just saying your estimate of Wilt's offensive game was a bit low.

Griffin is simply a better scorer than Howard is in the post. Griffin spent three quarters of the year figuring the game out and still hasn't refined what his strength is and is, at least, on DH's level close to the basket. His feeling the defender is just much better than DH's ability. Blake just has a natural know how around the basket that DH is trying to cultivate. You have to have a scorer's mentality to be among the elite for any length of time. Blake has that mentality or you can see he has that type of focus. He is going to score more in the post than DH will.

Adrian Dantley was 6-4, wasn't a leaper, wasn't great with the handle, wasn't quick or fast. He just had a scorer's mentality. They would put McHale and AC Green on him cause he Dantley would live in the post and they couldn't do anything with Dantley. McHale was a great defender but it meant nothing to Dantley. A scorer's mentality is something you can't overlook.

Guys like Barkley, Dirk, and Duncan were not top of the line scorers, they hit the wall that only driven scorers can pass. Barkley had a ton of advantages that Dantley never had, but Dantley was a machine. He just knew how to put the ball in the basket. Chamberlain was like Dantley, cept he was physically gifted, too. Guys like DH, who isn't on the level of the guys mentioned above isn't that high of level. Some guys just have a natural feel, a strong will and scoring know how and these players could go into any era played and excel. While we haven't seen "go off Wilt," we do know he had a fadeaway bank shot. A shot similar to Dantley and Jordan.

Guys that never crossed that threshold of being a great scorer are the guys that you would wonder about in other eras or scenarios. Not Wilt, Dantley, Jordan - those guys were super resourceful - had to be, to be that prolific over that long period of time. Wilt wouldn't be on the level of a guy learning offense or a rookie that is still learning the game. He was by far the most prolific scorer ever.

[millwad]

hmmm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak&feature=fvsr

Now I don't see how anyone with two eyes and at least a semi-functioning brain can say that THAT Wilt would NOT be dominant in today's NBA.

Keep in mind that THAT Chamberlain was 7-2, and would measure at 7-3 in shoes. He was between 280-300 lbs. He was regarded as not only the strongest player in the game...but there were those that claimed he was among the strongest athletes in the WORLD. And THAT Wilt was a SPRINTER in college.

And THAT Wilt was a part-time high-jump CHAMPION in college. In fact his coach set up a 12 ft. basket at KU while Wilt was there, and there are articles claiming that Wilt was dunking on it. The NCAA (and the NBA) banned the dunking of FT's BECAUSE of Wilt.

And THAT Wilt had a LEGITIMATE 7'-8" wingspan (as measured before the near-Ali fight.)

So, THAT Wilt...and with THOSE skills in that video...at 7-3, 300 lbs, with track speed and verticals, would EASILY dominate in TODAY's NBA. The REAL question would be...what would he be capable of shelling today's centers with?

Jlauber, again, a highlight-video doesn't show the truth and it's pure comedy that everytime someone puts up some video parts of his few games recorded you go, "OH, GO TO HELL, THAT WAS HIS WORST GAME EVER". Every NBA player looks great in a highlight-video. It's called high-light because it's shows the most flashy and great looking shots, even scrubs look great in them, even a joke tribute to Chris Mihm makes him look like a basketball god:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh6fOuUOkok


It doesn't matter that he was a sprinter or whatever he now was, we are talking about skillset and the more footage I see of Wilt the more I realize that I was stupid before for only looking at his stats. Wilt looks really slow in the post and the looking down at the basketball while taking 3 dribbles in the post would in a second put you on the bench in today's era after the try to post up would lead to an obvious turnover.

Defensive schemes and double teams would take away a huge part of Wilt's game obviously and HACK-A-Wilt would be pure comedy since Wilt was one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time.

And regarding Wilt dunking his FT's, I believe as much in that as I believe in that he slept with 20 000 ladies.. :facepalm

[PTB Fan]

He'd average 35/17/4 in his prime.

[Pointguard]

He'd average 35/17/4 in his prime.
Yeah, I'm pretty near there.

[icewill36]

i always lol @ old players that think they could dominate todays game...

[BlackJoker23]

wilt would wilt in todays league

[Kiddlovesnets]

Well this depends on which team he plays in. He may as well average 50ppg again in T-wolves and Cavs, but in Heat hes not gonna get more than 20ppg.

[millwad]

Well this depends on which team he plays in. He may as well average 50ppg again in T-wolves and Cavs, but in Heat hes not gonna get more than 20ppg.

There's no way a player in this era could average 50 points per game and especially not a guy with the skillset of Wilt, he would get exposed time after time.

Just because Wilt had a statpadding season in the 60's in a season where he barely faced any double teams or strong defensive schemes doesn't mean he could have done the same 50 years later, not possible and especially not if your name is Wilt Chamberlain.

[jlauber]

There's no way a player in this era could average 50 points per game and especially not a guy with the skillset of Wilt, he would get exposed time after time.

Just because Wilt had a statpadding season in the 60's in a season where he barely faced any double teams or strong defensive schemes doesn't mean he could have done the same 50 years later, not possible and especially not if your name is Wilt Chamberlain.

Once again...a completely uneducated and unresearched post. How about the TRUTH, though?

http://www.nba.com/home/history/legends-wilt-chamberlain/index.html


In Chamberlain's first year, and for several years afterward, opposing teams simply didn't know how to handle him. Tom Heinsohn, the great Celtics forward who later became a coach and broadcaster, said Boston was one of the first clubs to apply a team-defense concept to stop Chamberlain. "We went for his weakness," Heinsohn told the Philadelphia Daily News in 1991, "tried to send him to the foul line, and in doing that he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever. I hear people today talk about hard fouls. Half the fouls against him were hard fouls."

[millwad]

Once again...a completely uneducated and unresearched post. How about the TRUTH, though?

http://www.nba.com/home/history/legends-wilt-chamberlain/index.html

I wrote "barely", do you know what barely is? I am swedish and english is my 4th language but still I know the meaning of barely. And yes, compared to the true HOF centers of later era's Wilt faced way less double teams and that's a fact.

[jlauber]

I wrote "barely", do you know what barely is? I am swedish and english is my 4th language but still I know the meaning of barely. And yes, compared to the true HOF centers of later era's Wilt faced way less double teams and that's a fact.

And you are full of Sh!t!

[with malice]

Anyone who thinks that Wilt wouldn't be a dominant force in today's game has probably been concussed at some point recently.
Ignoring statistics accumulated in his day, you have to acknowledge that the guy would be in even better physical condition, shoot FTs well, and have fewer holes in his game.

That said, anyone thinking he'd pup up the obscene numbers being mentioned in this thread probably fits in the same category as the first group.

[-23-]

And you are full of Sh!t!

Great argument:applause:

[ZenMaster]

I agree to a point. I think a prime Wilt would easily be capable of scoring 30+ ppg, but so much would depend on his surrounding personnel. I think he would adapt to whatever conditions he would be playing in. Give him a relatively poor roster (like Kobe's '06 Lakers), and he would probably easily get 30-35 ppg (maybe even more.) But, give him decent teammates, and I suspect that he would be a 25 ppg scorer (on an unfathomable efficiency.)

It's almost impossible for a center to average more than 30 in todays NBA. Teams are too good at double teaming under todays rules, and the center spot is the easiest to double off all positions.

You'd have to shoot more than 10fts at 90% to do it as a center these days, unless you are an excellent 3pt shooter.

[Lebron23]

Shaq was the last NBA Center to average over 29 ppg in the NBA. I agree with the post of Zenmaster.

[Rooster]

It's almost impossible for a center to average more than 30 in todays NBA. Teams are too good at double teaming under todays rules, and the center spot is the easiest to double off all positions.

You'd have to shoot more than 10fts at 90% to do it as a center these days, unless you are an excellent 3pt shooter.

It's not impossible if Shaq has the work ethic and his free throws at 70 percent.

[millwad]

It's not impossible if Shaq has the work ethic and his free throws at 70 percent.

Well, prime Shaq faced extremely more double teams than what Wilt ever did and Shaq was even better from the FT-line than Wilt so there's no way Wilt oculd score more in this era..

[Quickening]

No he wouldn't..... much more competition now, players are much fitter, no one is history is averaging over 45 points a game, nevermind 75.

[jlauber]

What kind of defenses did Wilt face in his NBA career?

http://biography.jrank.org/pages/2336/Chamberlain-Wilt.html



Several of the rules of college basketball had to be changed as a result of Chamberlain's talents, which simply dwarfed those of previous players. Opposing players double-and triple-teamed him and played a slowed-down game rather than attempt to confront Chamberlain's offensive skills head-on. These techniques helped the University of North Carolina defeat Kansas 54-53 in triple overtime in the 1957 championship game.

Such tactics also frustrated the rapidly developing Chamberlain, who startled the basketball world by turning professional rather than returning to Kansas for his senior year. NBA rules forbade him from joining the league until the year in which he would have graduated from college, so Chamberlain played for the razzle-dazzle touring professional team the Harlem Globetrotters during the 1958-59 season. He joined the Philadelphia Warriors in 1959, having already collected a large bonus for signing.

Individual Triumphs in NBA
Chamberlain was an NBA star from the beginning, leading the league in scoring and rebounding, and taking home honors not only for Rookie of the Year but also for Most Valuable Player. Frustrated by defensive tactics similar to those he had faced in college, and by what he considered biased officiating, he threatened to leave the league and return to the Globetrotters in 1960. But he did not follow through on his threat, and soon learned to outmaneuver his tormentors through sheer size, speed, and skill.





http://www.nba.com/home/history/legends-wilt-chamberlain/index.html


In Chamberlain's first year, and for several years afterward, opposing teams simply didn't know how to handle him. Tom Heinsohn, the great Celtics forward who later became a coach and broadcaster, said Boston was one of the first clubs to apply a team-defense concept to stop Chamberlain. "We went for his weakness," Heinsohn told the Philadelphia Daily News in 1991, "tried to send him to the foul line, and in doing that he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever. I hear people today talk about hard fouls. Half the fouls against him were hard fouls."




http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,940232,00.html



He stood there, just to the right of the basket, a placid. 7-ft. 1 1/16-in, giant watching impassively as his teammates maneuvered the ball in backcourt. The New York Knickerbockers tried to box him in; they clutched at his jersey, leaned against his chest, stepped on his toes. Then Wilt Chamberlain came alive. With the aplomb of a cop palming an apple, he reached out one massive hand and plucked the basketball out of the air. Spinning violently, he ripped clear of the elbowing surge, took a step toward the basket and jumped. For an instant, he seemed suspended in midair, his head on a level with the 10-ft.-high basket. Slowly, gently, the ball dribbled off his fingertips, through the net, and the San Francisco Warriors went on to a 142-134 victory. New York Coach Ed Donovan sadly shook his head. "He's phenomenal." he sighed. "How does anyone stop Wilt Chamberlain?"




http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,940232,00.html



Most basketball stars have one great talent: Russell's is defense, Elgin Baylor's is shooting, Bob Cousy's is setting up plays and passing. Chamberlain does almost everything, better than anyone else. He is the pros' fiercest rebounder, and his shooting repertory includes such inimitable specialties as the "Dipper Dunk" (in which he simply stretches up and lays the ball in the basket), the "Stuff Shot" (in which he jumps up and rams the ball through the net from above), and the "Fadeaway Jump"—a delicate, marvelously coordinated push shot from 15 ft. away that defensive men literally cannot block without fouling.




http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html


[Carl Braun said] "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."

"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70



http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html


"I would talk to Wilt about all the players pounding on him. Sometimes, he said he didn't notice it--he was so strong. But I also believe that there were two sets of rules. By that, I mean because Wilt was so strong, the officials let the man guarding him get away with more--almost trying to equalize the game. I also believe that Wilt just took it because he didn't want to get thrown out, and because ithad always been like that with him. But I'd watch it and I'd get mad. It takes me a while to get my temper going, but when it does--look out. I'd see what the other players were doing to Wilt and what the officials were allowing, and I'd get more upset than if it were happening to me. So I jumped in there. It wasn't that Wilt couldn't defend himself. If he ever got really hot, he'd kill people, so he let things pass. But I didn't have to worry about that. I was strong for my size, but I was not about to do anything like the kind of damage would."
--Al Attles, Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 242



http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html


"People lose sight of the fact that Wilt was a 440 champion, a guy with great coordination. He also was so strong that the double-teaming defenses used today wouldn't bother him."
--Wayne Embry (GM for the Cleveland Cavaliers), Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 327



Continued...

[jlauber]

Continuing...

http://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2803-wilt-meets-bill-and-tommy-4000-words


At 7’ 2” tall and weighing at least 250 pounds, Wilt may have been the strongest man in the league as a rookie. Despite his size, Wilt’s introduction to physical aggression in the NBA was far worse than what confronted Bill Russell. Wilt was grabbed, held, jostled and manhandled worse than any player in the short history of the league.

It went beyond rookie hazing: it was a deliberate attempt to stop the taller, stronger player by frustration and intimidation. Wilt was constantly double- and triple-teamed, hacked and whacked and smacked as opponents tried to knock the ball out of his hands. The tactics were all the more effective because of Wilt’s notoriously poor foul shooting. Even the referees contributed to the harassment, letting opposing players get away with often egregious fouls, but calling Wilt for the slightest infraction.

Wilt’s coach and teammates encouraged Chamberlain to fight back, but unwisely the Big Dipper declined. A week after his first game against Bill Russell and the Celtics, Philadelphia played the St. Louis Hawks. The Hawks center, Clyde Lovellette, was one of the dirtiest players in the league, almost as tall as Wilt, and much thicker. At one point in the game, as Wilt and Clyde ran past each other, Clyde hit Wilt in the jaw with a vicious elbow that drove two of Wilt’s lower front teeth up and into the roof of his mouth. Wilt shook it off and continued playing.

Because Philadelphia was scheduled to travel immediately after the game, Wilt did not even have time to see a doctor. His whole face swelled, an infection set in, yet the following night Wilt played the entire game wearing a large mask on his face. He played the next night, as well, despite a swollen mouth and an aching head, and being unable to eat solid food.

In that third game in as many nights, Wilt again was hit in the mouth, and, was finally examined by a doctor. The infection in his mouth was so severe he had blood poisoning and was rushed to the hospital for emergency dental surgery. He lost four teeth and missed three games.

As soon as he returned, the rough play and hard fouling continued. Midway through the season, in a game against St. Louis, Wilt got so angry at Bob Pettit’s pushing and shoving that he elbowed Pettit in the face, knocking him out of the game. Unlike Bill’s knockout of Ray Felix, it wasn’t enough. It didn’t change the way Wilt was treated because, for every team but the Celtics, the only way to slow him down was to foul him.

The Celtics didn’t have to double- or triple-team Wilt because of Bill Russell’s defense. Bill’s strategy was to deny the entry pass; if Wilt did get the ball down low, Bill stayed between him and the basket, tried to take away the lane; if Wilt got the shot off, Bill would block it if he could and always made certain to box Wilt out. Bill played Wilt clean, didn’t hack or whack, did nothing to antagonize the big man.

That assignment was given to Tommy Heinsohn. When Wilt got the ball in the low post, Tommy was detailed to stop him - punch the ball, grab his arms, and, if nothing else worked, tackle the giant. Tommy’s courage was legendary, as he proved repeatedly over the course of his career, but putting him up against Wilt seemed a horrendous mismatch. Tommy was a full head shorter and fifty pounds lighter and wasn’t the only one who considered Wilt the strongest man in the world, once calling him “King Kong in sneakers”.



http://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2803-wilt-meets-bill-and-tommy-4000-words


Wilt was lucky he didn’t break any bones in his hand, but his knuckle joints were severely bruised and, by halftime, his hand was badly swollen. He continued playing but had trouble handling the ball. It was a sloppily played game by both teams and the Warriors pulled out the win.

Wilt took the floor for Game Three with his hand wrapped in a bandage. It was so swollen and sore he could hardly move his fingers. He played poorly. At one point, he pulled down a rebound, turned to look up court, and Tommy was there. Tommy punched at the ball, missed, and hit Wilt hard on the injured hand. Wilt danced around in serious pain. Tommy was called for the foul.

Wilt stood at the foul line and sent a murderous glare Tommy’s way. Tommy didn’t grab a photographer’s stool for protection. He didn’t even run out of the stadium the way he did when Red chased him over the exploding cigar. Tommy stood his ground, or, in this case, parquet, and fearlessly stared back. In their glaring contest, Wilt turned away first.

By the time his coach, Neil Johnston, removed him in the third quarter of Game Three, Wilt had only scored twelve points, his hand was practically useless, and the Celtics were running away with the game. The hand bothered him again in Game Four, which the Celtics took for a 3-1 series lead.

In Game Five in the sold-out Garden, Wilt shrugged off the swollen hand and turned in the kind of performance that Bill Russell had feared: he scored fifty points and led his team to an easy 128-107 win. The result shocked the Celtics and gave the momentum back to Philadelphia.



http://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2803-wilt-meets-bill-and-tommy-4000-words


K.C. Jones, arguably the savviest team player in the history of the game, was also a rookie that year and had a front row seat for Bill and Wilt's encounters. "Bill didn't do it all. We just used TEAM. That's a word that's thrown out all over the place, but the total personification of team is what we used. We used everybody's ability, and everybody had a role out there that was natural for them. Whoever was guarding the ball had four guys back there helping his ass out. The whole is bigger than the sum of the parts; we wrote that without knowing the phrase. We knew how good we were. And we knew how to use one another because we knew one another. The most important part of it was the understanding that we had of each teammate - what this guy likes and what that guy doesn't like and who can't play defense and who shoots the ball well. We used all that. If a guy couldn't play defense, we were there, picking him up. Let each guy do what he does best."

Years later, Wilt proved that he never quite understood what K.C. was saying. "What people don't realize," he opined, "is that it was never Wilt versus Russell. I never got, or needed, any help guarding Russell. But for Russ, it was always one or two other guys helping him. He never guarded me straight up."

[millwad]

Jlauber, stop the trolling, seriously.

We all know he didn't face near the amount of defensive schemes or double teams the last big NBA star center Shaq did, it't not even close. Prime Wilt in '67 got single handedly guarded by Bill Russell..:facepalm

[LBJ_MVP09]

I haven't seen a whole lot of full games from Chamberlain, but from all of the highlights and the few games I have watched, i just dont see how he would be so dominant in today's game. Bringing up FGA and FG% is completely pointless because that era was completely different. It is a fact that the players today are much more athletic on average than the players of the 60's and 70's. Does anyone have some links to games that show how he could compete in this era?

[ZenMaster]

The defensive schemes are way different now because of rule changes along with faster and more athletic players. They can simply get places faster on defense now and it makes a big difference.

Now there are schemes that, given the right set of players, effectively reduces teams ability to even enter the ball into a player with his back to the basket. Teams like Oklahoma can do this very well because of the length, speed and athleticism they have at all positions.
Teams have especially gotten a lot better at this in the last few years.

There are also better and many more different schemes for double teaming when a post player gets the ball. One thing would be Wilt's strength vs this but another is his ball handling which looks weak. Shaq had tremendous ball handling for his size.
And yes, there is a scheme for a delayed double team where the guy who's doubling down waits until the post player makes a move towards the middle and then he goes hard for the steal on the bounce.

I know a lot of people like to think that todays big buys are bad at posting up just because they're lazy, but the reality is that it's way more effective to be a good face up and pick'n roll player along with being a decent post up player in todays NBA.

No offense jlauber, but you probably worry too much about the past to really know what's going on in todays game.

[PTB Fan]

Jlauber, stop the trolling, seriously.

We all know he didn't face near the amount of defensive schemes or double teams the last big NBA star center Shaq did, it't not even close. Prime Wilt in '67 got single handedly guarded by Bill Russell..:facepalm

Bill guarded him well one on one, expect in 67 and another year i think so

[millwad]

The defensive schemes are way different now because of rule changes along with faster and more athletic players. They can simply get places faster on defense now and it makes a big difference.

Now there are schemes that, given the right set of players, effectively reduces teams ability to even enter the ball into a player with his back to the basket. Teams like Oklahoma can do this very well because of the length, speed and athleticism they have at all positions.
Teams have especially gotten a lot better at this in the last few years.

There are also better and many more different schemes for double teaming when a post player gets the ball. One thing would be Wilt's strength vs this but another is his ball handling which looks weak. Shaq had tremendous ball handling for his size.
And yes, there is a scheme for a delayed double team where the guy who's doubling down waits until the post player makes a move towards the middle and then he goes hard for the steal on the bounce.

I know a lot of people like to think that todays big buys are bad at posting up just because they're lazy, but the reality is that it's way more effective to be a good face up and pick'n roll player along with being a decent post up player in todays NBA.

No offense jlauber, but you probably worry too much about the past to really know what's going on in todays game.

/Thread

Just by looking at Wilt posting up it's obvious that he lacks some handles compared to guys like Shaq and a guy posting up like that would have been stripped in a matter of half a second in the modern era. It's just silly that some people really think he had the skillset to put up the stats he did in the 60's in todays' era..

[millwad]

Bill guarded him well one on one, expect in 67 and another year i think so

Read again.. I didn't mean that Russell was a bad defender, Jlauber is spamming about "all" the double and triple teams Wilt faced..

[Asukal]

Read again.. I didn't mean that Russell was a bad defender, Jlauber is spamming about "all" the double and triple teams Wilt faced..

Because its all about stats, my gawd one can only imagine what wilt would do to today's players, wilt could probably dunk the ball with all five opponents clinging to his arm. My gawd he is soooooo strong, he could bench press 500 lbs EASILY! :roll:

[Pointguard]

Continuing...

http://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2803-wilt-meets-bill-and-tommy-4000-words

http://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2803-wilt-meets-bill-and-tommy-4000-words

http://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2803-wilt-meets-bill-and-tommy-4000-words

ROFL, this post and the previous post might be the biggest shut ya mouth post ever on these boards. Millwad, what is your counter?

[jlauber]

ROFL, this post and the previous post might be the biggest shut ya mouth post ever on these boards. Millwad, what is your counter?

HIS counter is that Russell guarded Wilt one-on-one in PORTIONS of ONE second half game in the '67 playoffs.

And that, despite MY posts involving TWO of RUSSELL's teammates conclusively claiming that the Celtics used a TEAM defense in an attempt to SLOW Wilt down.

BUT, let's actually believe that nonsense for one moment. How about that '67 ECF? In the five game series, Wilt averaged 21.6 ppg, on .556 shooting, along with 32 rpg, and 10 apg...or a TRIPLE DOUBLE series. During the regular season, in nine games against Russell, he averaged 20.3 ppg on .549 shooting, along with 26.7 rpg and 6.6 apg. So, obviously he ELEVATED his game against Russell. This is a year in which he averaged 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, and shot .683.

How about the '66 ECF's? Chamberlain averaged 28 ppg, 30 rpg, and shot .509 against Russell, in a year in which he averaged 33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, and shot .540. Oh, and BTW, Wilt's teammates shot .352 in that post-season.

How about the '64 Finals? Wilt averaged 29 ppg, on .517 shooting, along with 27 rpg against Russell...in a season in which he averaged 36.9 ppg on .524 shooting, and with 22.3 rpg.

In the '62 ECF's, Wilt averaged 34 ppg on .468 shooting, along with 26 rpg. Now, before someone says that Wilt was way below his 50.4 ppg scoring average that season...in the Russell-Wilt regular season H2H's, Chamberlain averaged 38 ppg on .471 shooting. So, Wilt's numbers dropped SLIGHTLY against Russell in that post-season. BTW, Wilt took that crappy roster thru the first round of the playoffs, and to a game seven, two-point loss against Russell's 60-20 Celtics, and in a post-season in which Chamberlain's teammates collectively shot .354. Has any other player in NBA history ever had to overcome such atrocious play by their teammates, and yet carried a team so far?

BTW, Wilt had THREE regular seasons, all of which ranged from nine to eleven game seasons, in which he averaged 38 ppg against Russell. And in his rookie season, of you exclude Wilt's relatively poor first game against Russell, he would have averaged 40 ppg on about 50% shooting against him...in a league that shot .410!

Of course we all KNOW that Russell SELDOM guarded Wilt one-on-one, and in fact, the Celtics...and the ENTIRE NBA...SWARMED and BRUTALIZED Wilt for nearly his entire career.

Dickwad never saw Wilt play, and he obviously has no clue as to the REALITY of Wilt's career.

[millwad]

ROFL, this post and the previous post might be the biggest shut ya mouth post ever on these boards. Millwad, what is your counter?

The funny thing with you guys are that you put words in peoples mouth's just to make a point. I never said he NEVER faced any double teams, I said he didn't face nearly as many double teams as a guy like Shaq.

Why I mentioned Shaq was because he was the last high scoring center in the modern era of basketball. When that spanish guy on youtube had his account still going strong and posting Wilt clips I recall very few times I saw Wilt actually getting double teamed and I am 100% sure he never faced the amount of double team's someone like Shaq did and that's why I just can't see him being even more successful as a scorer in the modern era than Shaq. And not only that, all you guys ever do is posting quote after quote and you think some few words will do it for you but there are still footage of Wilt and it's obvious there were no defensive schemes or double or triple teams as effective as the modern era.

And again, like the guy above me mentioned, Shaq was a better player in the post than what Wilt ever was and it's just pathetic and silly that some of you guys claim the guy would have been a greater scorer than prime Shaq.

And Jlauber saying I didn't see the guy play, well mister, you didn't either. All you do is spamming about quotes or more than 40 year old games YOU never saw. You're the same jackass who changed your mind about that era more than 40 years after the actual games which only proves you've been shoving your head in a bunch of quotes and made up an imaginary world for yourself. Someone who actually saw those games wouldn't have written the things you used to write on this site and someone who saw those games wouldn't have changed his mind over some footage on youtube and after reading some quotes from wikipedia and other quotes you found on google. You have your head going crazy over some footage that spanish guy on youtube uploaded, the same clips we all saw and after you changing your mind you've only seen him in those few clips or are we supposed to believe you remember his 50 point average season when you were like 5 or something..:facepalm

You have no credibility, Jlauber, your so called knowledge is from wikipedia and google and we all remember you trying to tell us about the greatness of Wilt by taking quotes from wikipedia, the same quotes were taken from his own freaking autobiography..

[jlauber]

The defensive schemes are way different now because of rule changes along with faster and more athletic players. They can simply get places faster on defense now and it makes a big difference.

Now there are schemes that, given the right set of players, effectively reduces teams ability to even enter the ball into a player with his back to the basket. Teams like Oklahoma can do this very well because of the length, speed and athleticism they have at all positions.
Teams have especially gotten a lot better at this in the last few years.

There are also better and many more different schemes for double teaming when a post player gets the ball. One thing would be Wilt's strength vs this but another is his ball handling which looks weak. Shaq had tremendous ball handling for his size.
And yes, there is a scheme for a delayed double team where the guy who's doubling down waits until the post player makes a move towards the middle and then he goes hard for the steal on the bounce.

I know a lot of people like to think that todays big buys are bad at posting up just because they're lazy, but the reality is that it's way more effective to be a good face up and pick'n roll player along with being a decent post up player in todays NBA.

No offense jlauber, but you probably worry too much about the past to really know what's going on in todays game.

Ok, then based on your take...Kareem and Hakeem would also be reduced to the sub-levels of play by the 2011 centers, as well.

We KNOW that a PRIME Wilt crushed MANY of the SAME centers that Kareem faced, and to a FAR greater extent than Kareem did. A PRIME Wilt had THREE 50+ games on HOFer Willis Reed (and several more 40+ one.) He also had THREE 60+ point games against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy (and a SEASON average of 55 ppg BTW), including a HIGH game of 73! A PRIME Chamberlain BATTERED 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond to the tune of outscoring him in one game, 45-13 (and several more in the 30's...all in about a dozen games against him while in his "scoring" seasons. In fact, in Wilt's '67 season, in a year in which he dramatically cut back his shooting, he averaged 20.7 ppg on .562 against Nate's Warriors (and then 17.5 ppg on .560 shooting against them in the Finals.) Included in that season was one game in which Wilt's coach asked that Wilt take it to Nate after a halftime session. Wilt poured in 24 second half points, en route to a 30 point, 26 rebound, 12 block game.

Where were those games by a PRIME Kareem, and against THOSE centers (most of whom were in the twilights of their careers)? How about Wilt in the 68-69 season...or the season before Kareem entered the NBA? Wilt, in a league that only averaged 112 ppg, and in a season in which he only averaged 14 FGAs per game, hung TWO 60+ games...and against Jim Fox and Connie Dierking. Kareem came in the league the very season, and faced both of those guys. Where was his 60+ games?

Hell, an OLD Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee battled a PRIME Kareem to a complete statistical draw over the course of TEN full games (five regular and five post-season) in the '71 season. In fact, that was arguably Kareem's BEST overall season, and Wilt's WORST season of his career. Even in Wilt's LAST season, he held a PRIME Kareem to 29 ppg on .450 shooting (while shooting .737 against Kareem.) Or that Wilt, BEFORE his knee injury, just BURIED Kareem (outscoring him, 25-23; outrebounding, him, 25-20; outassisting him, 5-2; outblocked him, 3-2; and outshot him, 9-14 to 9-21 ... .643 to .429.)

And yet, a 38 year old Kareem averaged 33 ppg, on a mind-boggling .634 shooting against a 23 year old Hakeem. Included in those FIVE H2H games, were TWO of 40+, one of which was a 46 point game, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.

And, while Hakeem was not very efficient, and he could not stop Shaq at all (Shaq averaged 28 ppg on a staggering .595 shooting), he was able to shot-jack his way to a 32 ppg average against O'Neal in the '95 Finals (with THREE games of 30+ FGAs.)

Now, unless you are willing to claim that neither Kareem, nor Hakeem, would be worth a damn in the TODAY's NBA, then you better accept the fact that a PRIME Wilt would be even more dominant.

[millwad]

Kareem in the regular season of '72 averaged 40 points per game on Wilt, the same season many claim that Wilt was in his defensive prime.

Hakeem in his rookie season or in 86 was no where close to his defensive prime, and still he toy'd the '86 Lakers in the playoffs, just to make that clear since you never like to mention that fact because you are... butthurt.

It's funny, you always stick to stats but never to reality..

You know what, Jlauber? Your proof in this thread has been so AMAZING that I am 100% sure that Wilt would average 50 points per game in this era on these crappy centers. MY GOD, Wilt had sex with 20 000 women. MY GOD, Wilt was a trackstar. MY GOD, Wilt was a worldclass volleyball player. MY GOD, Wilt was the strongest athlete of all time. MY GOD, Wilt could have played in the NBA when he was in his 40's and 50's. MY GOD, Wilt once got the offer to fight with Muhammad Ali

[millwad]

And, while Hakeem was not very efficient, and he could not stop Shaq at all (Shaq averaged 28 ppg on a staggering .595 shooting), he was able to shot-jack his way to a 32 ppg average against O'Neal in the '95 Finals (with THREE games of 30+ FGAs.)



You are just sad..

Guys, Jlauber doesn't think that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the '95 finals but he thinks that Wilt Chamberlain "crushed" and "schooled" Kareem in '72. Too make it clear. Kareem first in the regular season averaged 40 points on 50% shooting on prime defensive Wilt and later in the playoffs Kareem outscored Wilt with 23 points per game and he did it with BETTER FG% as well..

You have no credibility left, Jlauber. MY GOD.

[Legends66NBA7]

jlauber and millwad =

http://bridalbasics.ca/gallery/albums/Snagged/Just_Married.gif

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=millwad]Kareem in the regular season of '72 averaged 40 points per game on Wilt, the same season many claim that Wilt was in his defensive prime.

Hakeem in his rookie season or in 86 was no where close to his defensive prime, and still he toy'd the '86 Lakers in the playoffs, just to make that clear since you never like to mention that fact because you are... butthurt.

It's funny, you always stick to stats but never to reality..

You know what, Jlauber? Your proof in this thread has been so AMAZING that I am 100% sure that Wilt would average 50 points per game in this era on these crappy centers. MY GOD, Wilt had sex with 20 000 women. MY GOD, Wilt was a trackstar. MY GOD, Wilt was a worldclass volleyball player. MY GOD, Wilt was the strongest athlete of all time. MY GOD, Wilt could have played in the NBA when he was in his 40's and 50's. MY GOD, Wilt once got the offer to fight with Muhammad Ali

[jlauber]

You are just sad..

Guys, Jlauber doesn't think that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the '95 finals but he thinks that Wilt Chamberlain "crushed" and "schooled" Kareem in '72. Too make it clear. Kareem first in the regular season averaged 40 points on 50% shooting on prime defensive Wilt and later in the playoffs Kareem outscored Wilt with 23 points per game and he did it with BETTER FG% as well..

You have no credibility left, Jlauber. MY GOD.

First of all, a PRIME Wilt never faced a PRIME Kareem. And, yes, virtually EVERYONE who watched the '72 WCF's, including the MILWAUKEE press proclaimed that an AGED Wilt, and on a surgically repaired knee...OUTPLAYED Kareem. Time magazine even went further, claiming that Wilt DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem. Of course, holding Kareem to .457 shooting (in a year in which he shot .574), and only .414 over the course of the LAST FOUR games of that six series was conclusive proof.

And yet, a Kareem who could barely jump at age 38, and in Hakeem's second season, just ANNIHILATED Olajuwon. What a complete disgrace. 33 ppg on a staggering .634 FG% covering FIVE H2H games. And yet, a 36 year old Wilt held a 25 year old Kareem to .450 shooting in SIX games in Wilt's LAST season.

Now, what do you think a 23 year old Kareem would have dropped on a 38 year old Hakeem? And what do think a 25 year old Chamberlain would have bombed a 36 year old Kareem with?

[millwad]

1. I never claimed that Wilt would average 50 ppg in today's NBA. I have claimed that he would be the BEST player in TODAY's NBA, though.

2. I never claimed that Wilt had sex with 20,000 women, nor do I care if he did.

3. Yes, Wilt WAS a trackstar, and a HIGH-JUMP champion.

4. I never claimed that Wilt was a world-class volleyball player, BUT, I quoted those that did.

5. Wilt WAS regarded as ONE of the strongest ATHLETES in the world in the 60's and 70's. Even Howard Cosell introduced him as such before...

6. The first of TWO LEGITIMATE offers that he received to fight Ali.

7. No less than LARRY BROWN claimed that Wilt could play in his 40's, and yes, the Nets made a LEGITIMATE offer to Wilt to play at age 50.

Maybe YOU should actually do some RESEARCH before you blatantly make an ass of yourself.

1. You've written time after time that he'd dominate in the today's game even more than he did in the 60's. After writing something like we all could be sure that you also meant that he'd put up god like scoring numbers as well..

2. Haha, you even made it sure to us that Wilt slept with many ladies and that many told that he was smooth with the girls. Maybe your mom was one of his victims? No hating, just asking..

3. He was Usain Bolt of the 60's.

4. You did, then Fatal made you look like a clown when he made it clear that Wilt for one year played in a volleyball league where women and men played together..

5. Got that, everytime from now I want to be sure about something I'd look after quotes from Howard Cossell.

6. What makes you think that Wilt could fight with Ali? You're the only fool who didn't understand that it was all a jippo.

7. And you seriously believe that Wilt in his 50's would actually been able to play? Get real, you probably still believe that the corpse of Wilt would abuse every center in the game today..

[-23-]

First of all, a PRIME Wilt never faced a PRIME Kareem. And, yes, virtually EVERYONE who watched the '72 WCF's, including the MILWAUKEE press proclaimed that an AGED Wilt, and on a surgically repaired knee...OUTPLAYED Kareem. Time magazine even went further, claiming that Wilt DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem. Of course, holding Kareem to .457 shooting (in a year in which he shot .574), and only .414 over the course of the LAST FOUR games of that six series was conclusive proof.

And yet, a Kareem who could barely jump at age 38, and in Hakeem's second season, just ANNIHILATED Olajuwon. What a complete disgrace. 33 ppg on a staggering .634 FG% covering FIVE H2H games. And yet, a 36 year old Wilt held a 25 year old Kareem to .450 shooting in SIX games in Wilt's LAST season.

Now, what do you think a 23 year old Kareem would have dropped on a 38 year old Hakeem? And what do think a 25 year old Chamberlain would have bombed a 36 year old Kareem with?

Why the misinformation? Sampson guarded Kareem those games.

[jlauber]

1. You've written time after time that he'd dominate in the today's game even more than he did in the 60's. After writing something like we all could be sure that you also meant that he'd put up god like scoring numbers as well..

2. Haha, you even made it sure to us that Wilt slept with many ladies and that many told that he was smooth with the girls. Maybe your mom was one of his victims? No hating, just asking..

3. He was Usain Bolt of the 60's.

4. You did, then Fatal made you look like a clown when he made it clear that Wilt for one year played in a volleyball league where women and men played together..

5. Got that, everytime from now I want to be sure about something I'd look after quotes from Howard Cossell.

6. What makes you think that Wilt could fight with Ali? You're the only fool who didn't understand that it was all a jippo.

7. And you seriously believe that Wilt in his 50's would actually been able to play? Get real, you probably still believe that the corpse of Wilt would abuse every center in the game today..

#7 for sure. That is a sure thing.

[millwad]

First of all, a PRIME Wilt never faced a PRIME Kareem.

Kareem faced a defensive PRIME Wilt and he took a huge dump on the poor fella. Which is why I don't respect his '72 no where close to what I do with some of the other HOF-centers. Wilt wasn't even the best center in '72, Kareem was.

By the way, how many times have you seen that series? Just as many times as you saw the rest of the games you spam about? That is zero if you already didn't know..

[jlauber]

Why the misinformation? Sampson guarded Kareem those games.

No he didn't. And I posted the actual RECAP of Kareem's 46 point game, in which Hakeem's coach was chatised for allowing Kareem to humilate Hakeem. 46 points, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes. There is also YouTube footage of Kareem dropping a 40 point game on Hakeem in the 84-85 season.

I am not going to waste my time looking them up. I have posted them MANY times.

[millwad]

Why the misinformation? Sampson guarded Kareem those games.

All he does is misinforming people but actually Hakeem guarded Kareem in two of those games if I recall correctly, both were in his rookie season and 2nd years as a pro where he was no where close his defensive prime.

But what Jlauber never will write is that Hakeem in the playoffs of '86, in his second year absolutely destroyed Kareem and the showtime Lakers. Obviously that is not relevant to him.

And he will also tel you that Kareem got "CRUSHED" and "SCHOOLED" by Wilt in '72, the same season where Kareem took a huge dump on prime defensive Wilt while averaging 40 points in the regular season on 50% shooting on Wilt. Then outscoring him with 23 points per game on better FG% in the playoffs.

Jlauber, don't be butthurt.

[jlauber]

Kareem faced a defensive PRIME Wilt and he took a huge dump on the poor fella. Which is why I don't respect his '72 no where close to what I do with some of the other HOF-centers. Wilt wasn't even the best center in '72, Kareem was.

By the way, how many times have you seen that series? Just as many times as you saw the rest of the games you spam about? That is zero if you already didn't know..

That was NOT a defensive PRIME Wilt you idiot. Take a look at Wilt's defensive Win Shares...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

Still, that was a Wilt who blocked 15+ skyhooks in that series.

You're right...Wilt was not the best center in the league in '72. He was regarded as the second best, though, and finished THIRD in thye MVP balloting. All at age 36, and on a surgically repaired knee. Oh, and BTW, he won the FMVP that season, too. And yes, he OUTPLAYED Kareem along the way.

[Sarcastic]

Kareem faced a defensive PRIME Wilt and he took a huge dump on the poor fella. Which is why I don't respect his '72 no where close to what I do with some of the other HOF-centers. Wilt wasn't even the best center in '72, Kareem was.

By the way, how many times have you seen that series? Just as many times as you saw the rest of the games you spam about? That is zero if you already didn't know..

Once you are out of prime, you are out of prime. You can't say he was still in his defensive prime when he faced KAJ.

[millwad]

That was NOT a defensive PRIME Wilt you idiot. Take a look at Wilt's defensive Win Shares...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

Still, that was a Wilt who blocked 15+ skyhooks in that series.

You're right...Wilt was not the best center in the league in '72. He was regarded as the second best, though, and finished THIRD in thye MVP balloting. All at age 36, and on a surgically repaired knee. Oh, and BTW, he won the FMVP that season, too. And yes, he OUTPLAYED Kareem along the way.

Yes, he OUTPLAYED Kareem while Kareem taking a huge dump in Wilt's face while averaging 40 points per game on him in the regular season and then outscoring him with 23 points per game in the playoffs.. ON BETTER FG%, you jerk.

When was the last time a center got SCHOOLED a player who averaged 40 points on him over 5 games in the regular season and then outscoring him with 23 points per game in the playoffs on better FG% while also outassisting him..:facepalm

[millwad]

That was NOT a defensive PRIME Wilt you idiot. Take a look at Wilt's defensive Win Shares...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

Still, that was a Wilt who blocked 15+ skyhooks in that series.

You're right...Wilt was not the best center in the league in '72. He was regarded as the second best, though, and finished THIRD in thye MVP balloting. All at age 36, and on a surgically repaired knee. Oh, and BTW, he won the FMVP that season, too. And yes, he OUTPLAYED Kareem along the way.

Yes, he OUTPLAYED Kareem while Kareem taking a huge dump in Wilt's face while averaging 40 points per game on him in the regular season and then outscoring him with 23 points per game in the playoffs.. ON BETTER FG%, you jerk.

When was the last time a center got SCHOOLED a player who averaged 40 points on him over 5 games in the regular season and then outscoring him with 23 points per game in the playoffs on better FG% while also outassisting him..:facepalm

[jlauber]

Once you are out of prime, you are out of prime. You can't say he was still in his defensive prime when he faced KAJ.

You are obviously far more intelligent than Dickwad.

In any case, it would have been very interesting to have seen a PRIME Wilt against a PRIME Kareem.

[millwad]

Once you are out of prime, you are out of prime. You can't say he was still in his defensive prime when he faced KAJ.

There are plenty of people saying that Wilt was in his defensive prime in '72, even some of Jlauber's lover on ISH will tell you that.

[Sarcastic]

There are plenty of people saying that Wilt was in his defensive prime in '72, even some of Jlauber's lover on ISH will tell you that.

What does that mean? Once you are old and have taken a step back, there is no turning back.

Father time stops for no man.

[millwad]

You are obviously far more intelligent than Dickwad.

In any case, it would have been very interesting to have seen a PRIME Wilt against a PRIME Kareem.

Is he also far more intelligent than your beloved Psileas as well? He sure thing believes that Wilt was in his defensive prime in '72, so does the majority of the people..

What a great Wilt historian you are..:facepalm

[Kiarip]

/Thread

Just by looking at Wilt posting up it's obvious that he lacks some handles compared to guys like Shaq and a guy posting up like that would have been stripped in a matter of half a second in the modern era. It's just silly that some people really think he had the skillset to put up the stats he did in the 60's in todays' era..

Actually you're wrong.

A lot of guys from the 60's look like they can't dribble by today's standards, because they're consistently bouncing the ball up and down seemingly, but the actual reason behind this was that that's how you had to dribble the ball in order to not get called for a carry back then.

If a player like wade who consistently nearly underpalms the ball, and side-palms it ALL the time to push it ahead of him would play in the 60s he'd get called for carries every single time he touches the ball.

The dribbling styles were different back then because the refereeing was also different.

[millwad]

What does that mean? Once you are old and have taken a step back, there is no turning back.

Father time stops for no man.

It means that he concentrated on his defense mainly while not being as active on the offensive end, this is not something I have made up from no where. There are plenty of people telling the same, Jlauber won't admit it because Kareem took a huge dump on Wilt that season.

Even Jlauber's own loverboy on ISH will tell you that Wilt was in his defensive prime in '72 and Jlauber always agrees with that guy..

[PHILA]

1971 Highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWRmCBYymM0#t=14m3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpufnh4fmRk#t=28m16s


1972 Highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpufnh4fmRk#t=32m29s


Based on recaps of 1972 WCF, KAJ outplayed him in games 1, 2, & 4 while Wilt got the better of him in games 3, 5, & 6.


After Gm. 3, 1971:

St. Joseph Gazette - Apr 16, 1971

http://i.imgur.com/p3Ce1.png
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The Milwaukee Sentinel - Apr 15, 1972

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High Above Courtside: The Lost Memoirs of Johnny Most - Mike Carey, Jamie Most

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The Bryan Times - Feb 6, 1971

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After the '72 WCF:


[I]The Milwaukee Journal - Apr. 24, 1972

Abdul-Jabbar failed to outplay either Nate Thurmond of the Golden State Warriors or Wilt Chamberlain of the Los Angeles Lakers in the playoffs, and his inability to contain Chamberlain finally made the difference in the Laker series that ended in disaster at the Arena Saturday

Matter of Muscle

In the first round series with the Warriors, Abdul-Jabbar outrebounded Thurmond 95-89, but was outscored, 127-114. The Bucks won the series, four games to one.

In the semifinal series with the Lakers, Abdul-Jabbar had a tremendous edge in scoring, 202-67, but was outrebounded, 116-105, and was outmuscled by a greater margin than that. He actually reached the point on occasion where he was intimidated by Chamberlain as he headed toward the basket, and who ever heard of the big Buck being intimidated?

The Lakers eliminated the Bucks in six games, and the turning point occurred, with the series tied 2-2, when Chamberlain took advantage of his tremendous advantage in weight and strength and began pushing Abdul-Jabbar around. Wilt is listed at 275 pounds but probably weighs 290, to Abdul-Jabbar

[millwad]

Actually you're wrong.

A lot of guys from the 60's look like they can't dribble by today's standards, because they're consistently bouncing the ball up and down seemingly, but the actual reason behind this was that that's how you had to dribble the ball in order to not get cold for a carry back then.

If a player like wade who consistently nearly underpalms the ball, and side-palms it ALL the time to push it ahead of him would play in the 60s he'd get called for carries every single time he touches the ball.

The dribbling styles were different back then because the refereeing was also different.

Is that also why plenty of guards of that era problems with dribbling the ball with their "wrong" hand? I even saw an all-star game from '62 if I recall correctly where no one during the warm-ups lay in the ball with their left hand on the left sided lay-up.

[jlauber]

Yes, he OUTPLAYED Kareem while Kareem taking a huge dump in Wilt's face while averaging 40 points per game on him in the regular season and then outscoring him with 23 points per game in the playoffs.. ON BETTER FG%, you jerk.

When was the last time a center got SCHOOLED a player who averaged 40 points on him over 5 games in the regular season and then outscoring him with 23 points per game in the playoffs on better FG% while also outassisting him..:facepalm

Just a COUPLE of quick sources...

and thanks to ThaRegul8r for the one below...

[QUOTE]Kareem

[millwad]

Jlauber still doesn't know what "decisively" means. And it's funny, that is the only thing you have to prove that Wilt "crushed" Kareem in '72 while getting outscored by 23 points a game on bette FG% and also outassisting Wilt.

Kareem had bad games in the last games of the series but his performance can't be taken away from him, especially not considering that he also didn't let poor Wilt score and when he tried he did it with horrible FG% compared to the few shots he dared to take.

[jlauber]

PHILA beat me to it...

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[Kiarip]

Is that also why plenty of guards of that era problems with dribbling the ball with their "wrong" hand? I even saw an all-star game from '62 if I recall correctly where no one during the warm-ups lay in the ball with their left hand on the left sided lay-up.

... guards were way worse back then, and perimeter players in general... I thought this was common knowledge?

The game was very much big man dominated back then.

[jlauber]

... guards were way worse back then, and perimeter players in general... I thought this was common knowledge?

The game was very much big man dominated back then.

Watch footage of Pistol Pete and get back to me. And very few would ever have claimed that Maravich was the best guard of his era, either.

There were MANY great "dribblers." I won't waste the time now, but there was footage of a Celts-Royals playoffs, and Em Bryant, who I am sure that no one has ever heard of, was doing behind-his-back dribbling. And Oscar was FAR more efficient in terms of ball-handling.

My god, the HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS were packing arenas in the 60's.

And, we have blown this myth that West couldn't dribble with his left hand to bits here.

Sure, PALMING and CARRYING were illegal back then. Today's guards wouldn't make it across the half court line if it was called now.

[Kiarip]

Watch footage of Pistol Pete and get back to me. And very few would ever have claimed that Maravich was the best guard of his era, either.

There were MANY great "dribblers." I won't waste the time now, but there was footage of a Celts-Royals playoffs, and Em Bryant, who I am sure that no one has ever heard of, was doing behind-his-back dribbling. And Oscar was FAR more efficient in terms of ball-handling.

My god, the HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS were packing arenas in the 60's.

And, we have blown this myth that West couldn't dribble with his left hand to bits here.

Sure, PALMING and CARRYING were illegal back then. Today's guards wouldn't make it across the half court line if it was called now.

guards were worse with the left hand than they are now. A lot of them couldn't finish with their left.

[ZenMaster]

Ok, then based on your take...Kareem and Hakeem would also be reduced to the sub-levels of play by the 2011 centers, as well.


Now, unless you are willing to claim that neither Kareem, nor Hakeem, would be worth a damn in the TODAY's NBA, then you better accept the fact that a PRIME Wilt would be even more dominant.

Worth a damn? Did I say Wilt wouldn't be worth a damn in 2011?

What I said was that he wouldn't average 30+.

You're losing your mind in copy paste numbers and you never talk about the game.

[Jacks3]

This nicca would be nothing more than a poor man's Kwame Brown today.

[jlauber]

This nicca would be nothing more than a poor man's Kwame Brown today.

More likely that Kwame would not have even been a LaRue Martin in Wilt's era.

[jlauber]

Worth a damn? Did I say Wilt wouldn't be worth a damn in 2011?

What I said was that he wouldn't average 30+.

You're losing your mind in copy paste numbers and you never talk about the game.

Maybe, maybe not. Just because we have only have ONE decent center in today's NBA (and NO ONE with half a brain would argue with that statement), does not mean that defensive schemes are better today. Even Howard has slowly become a better offensive player, and I don't see him having a PRIME Wilt's skills, nor size, length, power, or athleticism.

[ZenMaster]

Maybe, maybe not. Just because we have only have ONE decent center in today's NBA (and NO ONE with half a brain would argue with that statement), does not mean that defensive schemes are better today. Even Howard has slowly become a better offensive player, and I don't see him having a PRIME Wilt's skills, nor size, length, power, or athleticism.

Are you really trying to say defensive schemes aren't better today than 40 years ago? (Because NO ONE with half a brain would argue with that statement).