Excellent article: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson comparison

[pauk]

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/nba/photogallery/jamesmagicfinal.jpg

Legend vs. Star: Magic Johnson vs. LeBron James

"Next up: Magic Johnson vs. LeBron James

Even though we've tried desperately to hammer this home throughout this series, this one, due its participants, requires an even stronger preface than previously stated. So please, for the love of Auerbach, read this and let it sink in.

This post is not a debate on who was better. It's to examine their games and careers and see where they are alike and where they are different. We're only now beginning to be able to put the 2011 NBA Finals into consideration for how it affects James' career, and while he's going to have a half-dozen more chances to rewrite the tale, the early returns are damaging.

And this is where it's important to bring up statistics. It's often said that most "statheads" or "geeks," "statnerds," "sabretricians," or whatever youw ant to call them preach an all-or-nothing approach. As in, if I believe that using points scored per possession is a wiser approach than points per game, or believing a better indicator of how much a guy rebounds is the percentage of available caroms he snags than rebounds per game that I automatically toss out all other indications. That somehow because I think PER is a good indicator of efficiency, not of value, but efficiency, that I'm somehow going to think that the players better than Kobe Bryant in PER are better than Kobe Bryant at basketball. It robs those of us who want to take all the evidence possible to concoct an opinion of the ability to toe the line. You're either with the numbers, or against. You either value big shots in big games for big wins, or silly numbers on a chart. And it works both ways, as too often numbers-heavy analysts will lose sight of the fact that sometimes a play does leave a team demoralized and they never recover. Happens in real life, happens on the floor. There's a middle ground.

That middle-ground is in beautiful stark relief when we consider James and Magic. Here's a nice start for you.

Through their first seven seasons, James has scored nearly 7,000 more points in a little over 4000 more minutes. Per 36 minutes, James has averaged 24.8 points per game, Magic 18.6. James averaged a line of 27.7-7.1-7.0-1.7-1.8 with 3.3 turnovers per game, Magic 18.6-7.3-10.6-2.1-.5 with 3.8 turnovers per game. James has a career PER Of 26.9, Johnson had one of 23.5 through seven seasons (Magic was one year older at that point). In short, James' overall production has been better up until this point. But to get there you have to consider the years where Magic was sharing the ball with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, when he was finding his way, when he wasn't producing other-worldly numbers. James was the man from day one.

Instead, take a look at James' eighth season in the league versus' Johnson's. The gap closes considerably. James scored less than a point more per 36 minutes, less than a rebound more per 36 minutes, and Johnson's 12.1 assists to James 6.5 is stunning. The PER gap closes to 27.3 for James versus 27.0 for Magic. And Johnson had a 47.2 Assist percentage, meaning nearly half of all the Lakers' Showtime assists in 1986-1987 came from Magic. James' closest to that was a 41.8 percent mark in 2009-2010, his last with Cleveland.

But the difference that presents itself most clearly to me is connected to the metrics, but not self-evident. Magic Johnson's greatest gift was his ability to excel above and beyond what was necessary, specifically in the role his team required of him. Magic filled a need better than any player in NBA history. If it was rebounding, he'd crash the glass. If it was setting up teammates, he'd drop double-digit assists. And if called upon, he could score at will (Johnson is, across the board, a better shooter than James, though last season James was only 1.2 percentage points behind Johnson in his seventh season). The 1980 Finals' Game 6 where Magic Johnson started at center is the easiest reference point, but that overlooks a decade of play wherein Johnson played point forward better than anyone ever had or ever will, most likely. His versatility is his strength, and it is both a bond and fracture between he and James' game.

When James signed with the Heat along with Chris Bosh, immediately everyone started conceptualizing how this three-headed monster would work. Very early on, Erik Spoelstra confirmed that we would see both James and Wade run point. And throughout the season, James indeed plyayed as the primary ball-handler. His versatility is a huge strengthpoint, in that James is a gifted passer who can make impossible passes, has terrific vision, and can use his size and strentgh to overwhelm an opponent to the breaking point, just before dropping the ball off to a teammate for an easy score.

The problem is that James too often seems intent on fulfilling an agenda. When Johnson played, it was without purpose, flowing within the rhythm of the game. James instead is like an orchestra conductor who wants the entire symphony to stop on a dime and switch to whatever new piece of music he's selected. Teammates should get out of the way because he's coming through. Now they should cut to the basket because he's looking for the baseline cutter. Now they should work to spot up. Now they should try and free him off a pick and roll. If a point guard's responsibility is to not only manage the game, but to identify the opponent's weaknesses and attack them, no one has educated James to that point. It may be a matter of James always believing it is he who should dictate what the defense should do and not the other way around, but that kind of dogma is best fit when you have a system to rely on. Phil Jackson never changed his gameplan because the Triangle would take care of itself (and because he had Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kobe Bryant to lean on, but let's not get into that). James has never operated in a rigorous discipline like that. He's always been granted decision-making power, the trust to deliver, as Magic often was. The problem is that Magic always knew how to identify where he needed to be, how he needed to play. James too often simply tries to slam the square peg into the round hole. The fact that he's as successful as he is wiht it is a testament to his ability.

In a way, you almost have to blame Jordan for part of the discrepancy. That's the man who James has always looked up, modeled himself after. And that's who we've expected him to be as a basketball society. The pull-up jumper, loop-de-loop layup, free-throw-line dunk contest winner, we want all of that, again. And James too often seems trapped in emulating it. He dabbles with the post, then feels like he's done enough time there and goes back to the crossover pull-up jumper. He never takes the time to recognize "Hey, Shawn Marion is 33 and DeShawn Stevenson is much smaller than me. If I post up, Chandler has to help and that probably means I'm going to the line 30 times." Some think that's because James is lazy. It's hard to see how an individual who is as good at basketball as James is, who is in the physical condition he's in could be lazy. Instead, it's an expectation Magic never had to face. Deferring to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar only made him more popular. Deferring to Dwyane Wade makes James weak. He's supposed to hit the mid-range jumper, the fadeaway. He's supposed to be Jordan. In reality, his career would benefit in no way more than trying to emulate Magic. On and off the court.

Johnson was a media darling. That smile permeates through the years. Magic partied through the years as athletes do, but managed to never allow his image to get out and be tarnished. Part of this was because the internet didn't exist. Part of this is because Johnson always had a firmer lock on his image, despite James being the one with the marekting company built around him. Johnson had an epic rivalry. James instead embraced two of his rivals in playing with them. Johnson always managed to find the perfect way to play in the clutch, whether it was scoring, passing, rebounding, or defense. James is seen as a quitter who fails in the clutch. Johnson retired with the same team that drafted him and has a statue outside the arena. James abandoned his home-state team and people burned his jerseys.

Of course lost in all this is that Johnson walked into one of the most successful franchises in NBA history, and was partnered with the player who would go on to become the all-time scoring leader in league history. James instead entered a perennial underdog and had such great talent come beside him as Wally Szczerbiak, Ben Wallace, and Mo Williams. It doesn't change or affect James' decisions or how he's percieved, nor should it. But these things should be mentioned in full disclosure.

All this time, James has been trying to build himself around Jordan, or create his own iconic image. Maybe instead he should have focused on the leader of Showtime, the man whose talents most closely resemble his."


http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/31463256

[pauk]

i agree with everything.... especially the last phrase....

i honestly think Lebron is in a CONFLICT between two completely different sides.... and those sides are Magic Johnson & Michael Jordan.......

should i think pass first? (magic)
should i think score first? (jordan)
should i post up and score? (jordan)
should i post up and facilitate? (magic)
should i play point-guard? (magic)
should i be a perimeter pure scorer? (jordan)
should i control the game like magic?
should i control the game like jordan?
cant i mix all those things? why not?
when is the right time to do it like magic?
when is the right time to do it like jordan?
in the clutch.. should i think like magic or jordan?
:hammerhead:



for the most of his career... he has been mixing magic-jordan......... right now what this new team clearly requires him to do is CHOOSE ONE DESTINY..............

either STFU and become a Point-Guard and Facilitate.... (you have the team to do that right now)
or
either STFU and become a PURE SCORER and let Wade/somebody else facilitate.. (you can afford to average 0 APG right now)

[Doctor Rivers]

Wade > LeBron

[Trigg]

Wade > LeBron

Insightful. :banghead:

I enjoyed that article and I think a lot does stand true. Although what I will say is that I think everyone over analysis Lebron James because of who he is. Just comes with the territory

I full expect he'll find the right balance in the future and go on to win a few rings along the way and be remembered as one of the best players to play the game. Because he is already.

[Phong]

The problem is that James too often seems intent on fulfilling an agenda. When Johnson played, it was without purpose, flowing within the rhythm of the game. James instead is like an orchestra conductor who wants the entire symphony to stop on a dime and switch to whatever new piece of music he's selected. Teammates should get out of the way because he's coming through. Now they should cut to the basket because he's looking for the baseline cutter. Now they should work to spot up. Now they should try and free him off a pick and roll. If a point guard's responsibility is to not only manage the game, but to identify the opponent's weaknesses and attack them, no one has educated James to that point.LeBron Ball :lol

[pegasus]

Pauk, if you really read that article from start to finish and still agree with everything, then you may not be the biggest troll in the world. Maybe you are, just like Lebron, too intent on fulfilling an agenda that you don't always see the big picture.

Either way, thanks for posting the article. I DO agree with almost everything. Lebron is practically a hot mess.

[DJmicah]

He should try to be Magic While Wade can still score at a high level then when wade declines he can be the main scorer...because hes better at facilitating then wade at this point

[SunsCaptain]

When Magic was on the Lakers and got his team to the finals he lost it for his team.

He under performed. The town and fans turned on him even though he was one of the best players.

He came out the next year and and won the championship to win everyone back.

LeBron had a similar experience in Miami. Lead his team to the finals. The best player in the NBA under performed and the fans jumped on his back.

Now if he truly follows in Magics footsteps he will come back on fire and win multiple championships.

People forget that Magic was in the same situation as LeBron.

[Deuce Bigalow]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

you cant compare a ringless queen to a champion legend

[Deuce Bigalow]

When Magic was on the Lakers and got his team to the finals he lost it for his team.

He under performed. The town and fans turned on him even though he was one of the best players.

He came out the next year and and won the championship to win everyone back.

LeBron had a similar experience in Miami. Lead his team to the finals. The best player in the NBA under performed and the fans jumped on his back.

Now if he truly follows in Magics footsteps he will come back on fire and win multiple championships.

People forget that Magic was in the same situation as LeBron.

Magic was already a 2 time Champion before that

[pegasus]

When Magic was on the Lakers and got his team to the finals he lost it for his team.

He under performed. The town and fans turned on him even though he was one of the best players.

He came out the next year and and won the championship to win everyone back.

LeBron had a similar experience in Miami. Lead his team to the finals. The best player in the NBA under performed and the fans jumped on his back.

Now if he truly follows in Magics footsteps he will come back on fire and win multiple championships.

People forget that Magic was in the same situation as LeBron.

WTF are you talking about???

Magic won in his first season. He was the first and only rookie to win the FMVP award. His stat sheet was 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals in the championship game when Jabbar was out with an ankle injury.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Laugh.gif

[SunsCaptain]

Here you go silly heads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

Try doing your own research =)

[Doctor Rivers]

Here you go silly heads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

Try doing your own research =)

As many have already said before...MAGIC WON A CHAMPIONSHIP HIS ROOKIE YEAR

:facepalm

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Doctor Rivers is quickly becoming one of the best posters in the NBA forum

[Deuce Bigalow]

Here you go silly heads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

Try doing your own research =)

5

[pauk]

Pauk, if you really read that article from start to finish and still agree with everything, then you may not be the biggest troll in the world. Maybe you are, just like Lebron, too intent on fulfilling an agenda that you don't always see the big picture.

Either way, thanks for posting the article. I DO agree with almost everything. Lebron is practically a hot mess.

Im not really a troll.. i call myself tho... :lol i like to troll Kobetards (they have ridicilous statements), but i do it with facts, i retaliate and correct their crazy statements...

I like Lebron... i commend him when he deserves it and i will bash him when he deserves it....

i just want FACTS..... im FACTS biased.... if the truth is told... i have nothing against it.... a FACT is my "homerism" :cheers:

[pauk]

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Laugh.gif

Lebron & Magic :bowdown: most unique players ever

but i did laugh at the pic tho... lol

[Heavincent]

Im not really a troll.. i call myself tho... :lol i like to troll Kobetards (they have ridicilous statements), but i do it with facts, i retaliate and correct their crazy statements...

I like Lebron... i commend him when he diserves it and i will bash him when he diserves it....

i just want FACTS..... im FACTS biased.... if the truth is told... i have nothing against it.... a FACT is my "homerism" :cheers:

Diserve? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

And no, I've honestly never seen a good post from you on here. You're the biggest Lebron homer I've ever seen.

[pauk]

LeBron Ball :lol

It was really needed for them to be that successful at that time.... he over-over-overachieved....

[Doctor Rivers]

It was really needed for them to be that successful at that time.... he over-over-overachieved....

he's the self-proclaimed "chosen one" without a championship. i'd say he's underachieved.

[pauk]

Diserve? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

And no, I've honestly never seen a good post from you on here. You're the biggest Lebron homer I've ever seen.

oh sorry damn... deserve.. typo :D

dont worry i would not be happy if you found one of my posts "good".... considering you are the biggest kobetard ive ever seen.... with no sense of humility, logic, facts or context in your posts...

as far as Lebron goes... i would have not talked about him so much if YOU wouldnt..... notice that most of my Lebron posts have been RETALIATIONS..... only responses to your ridicilous statements i was trying to correct..

[pauk]

he's the self-proclaimed "chosen one" without a championship. i'd say he's underachieved.

He is 26.... i think the chosen one will be able to spam a couple of rings these upcoming seasons....

[Heavincent]

dont worry i would not be happy if you found one of my posts "good".... considering you are the biggest kobetard ive ever seen.... with no sense of humility, logic, facts or context in your posts...

You saying this = :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I don't even talk about Kobe very much. I don't have some weird obsession with him like you do with Lebron.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Laugh.gif
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Laugh.gif
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Laugh.gif
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Laugh.gif
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Laugh.gif
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Laugh.gif
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Laugh.gif
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Laugh.gif
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Laugh.gif
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/yinwest/Laugh.gif

[Doctor Rivers]

He is 26.... i think the chosen one will be able to spam a couple of rings these upcoming seasons....

yeah he'll win the upcoming asterisk championship and that's it :roll:

[Heavincent]

yeah he'll win the upcoming asterisk championship and that's it :roll:

No he won't.

The Heat are overrated.

[pauk]

You saying this = :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I don't even talk about Kobe very much. I don't have some weird obsession with him like you do with Lebron.

you dont talk about him much... you aint as active as me around here i guess...

but when you OPEN YOUR MOUTH.... its mostly garbage man.... sorry...

all your posts have been nothing but jokes, insults towards me/lebron fans or ofcourse lebron... think about that one...

[SunsCaptain]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]5

[Heavincent]

you dont talk about him much... you aint as active as me around here i guess...

but when you OPEN YOUR MOUTH.... its mostly garbage man.... sorry...

all your posts have been nothing but jokes, insults towards me/lebron fans or ofcourse lebron... think about that one...

Unlike you, I actually talk about a variety of players. I probably spend more time in the football forum anyway. With you it's just "Lebron this, Kobe that :blah :blah :blah".

Now why don't you go jerk it with your fellow Lebron groupies instead of annoying us intelligent folks.

I'm way too smart to be talking to somebody as stupid as you.

[pauk]

lol what did this post have to do with anything?

:facepalm

We are talking about the similarity between the collapse of Magic in the 84' finals and the collapse of leBron in the 2011 finals.

I hate idiots.

lol starts listing a bunch of accolades...what a moron. :rolleyes:


yea i remember reading about that....

they called Magic "TRAGIC JOHNSON".... :oldlol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

Like Master.. Like Pupile eh? But just like the Master... the Pupile will also prevail later with a vengeance (inb4 heaveninacnascntnent spell checks me).....

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol what did this post have to do with anything?

:facepalm

We are talking about the similarity between the collapse of Magic in the 84' finals and the collapse of leBron in the 2011 finals.

I hate idiots.

lol starts listing a bunch of accolades...what a moron. :rolleyes:

Lebron and Magic were not the same in 1984

Magic already won 2 Championships, you moron

[Deuce Bigalow]

yea i remember reading about....

they called Magic "TRAGIC JOHNSON".... :oldlol:

:facepalm

"tragic magic"

[pauk]

:facepalm

"tragic magic"

nope.. without the magic.... just "Tragic Johnson"....

"Johnson was called "Tragic Johnson" by Celtics fans due to...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_NBA_Finals

"In the 1984 Finals, Magic was renamed as Tragic Johnson after the Lakers' surprising loss"

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/ian_thomsen/06/19/countdown/index.html#ixzz1ahIjck7B

facepalm.. yep.. this time smack yourself :lol

[Phong]

http://nsa21.casimages.com/img/2011/10/13/111013111428974196.gif

[Doctor Rivers]

http://nsa21.casimages.com/img/2011/10/13/111013111428974196.gif

:roll:

[pauk]

http://nsa21.casimages.com/img/2011/10/13/111013111428974196.gif

did you create that to? :applause: :facepalm funny but.. no life

[LBJFTW]

Im not really a troll.. i call myself tho... :lol i like to troll Kobetards (they have ridicilous statements), but i do it with facts, i retaliate and correct their crazy statements...

I like Lebron... i commend him when he deserves it and i will bash him when he deserves it....

i just want FACTS..... im FACTS biased.... if the truth is told... i have nothing against it.... a FACT is my "homerism" :cheers:

Here's the biggest problem I have with Lebron. I'll get to the Kobetards in a minute....

The guy made a spectacle of himself during the "decision", then once he got to Miami he told everyone that they were going to win it all and sure enough, he didn't.

That is the definition of fail plain and simple. Cleveland rubbed the failure right in his face, and it was so sweet. All the guy had to do was one of two things:

-demonstrate some class and leave on a good note
-at least win if your going to behave like an idiot on your way out

An amazing talent on the court that gave Cleveland everything he had for 6 out of 7 years, but poor execution as far as his behavior when it was all said and done. It's no surprise that only a minority of NBA fans respect him after all of this.

As for Kobe, sorry kids but the dude is old.....so be optimistic. Let's be thankful for what he's accomplished and all the great moments. Yes he has 5 rings. Yes LeBron has 0. Stop worrying about whether or not Kobe will get 6 rings. 6 rings won't make him better than Jordan, and the lack of 6 rings won't make him any less respected than Jordan. He's a different player that played in a different era.

Whether or not LeBron will continue to fail with the 1st/2nd best player by his side is what I'm interested in. All this convoluted propaganda and player comparisons only serve to muddy the waters. The only thing a majority of people care about is whether or not he's going to fail again.

What I'm also concerned about is how the LeBron homers will prepare for his possible failure.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

http://nsa21.casimages.com/img/2011/10/13/111013111428974196.gif

:roll:

[-Original-]

did you create that to? :applause: :facepalm funny but.. no life
you're telling somebody they have no life, when all you do is talk about lebron, and gargle on his nuts. :oldlol: :facepalm MASSIVE FAIL.

[pauk]

Here's the biggest problem I have with Lebron. I'll get to the Kobetards in a minute....

The guy made a spectacle of himself during the "decision"

I agree... the decision on TV (although raising money for children) shouldnt have happened imo..


then once he got to Miami he told everyone that they were going to win it all and sure enough, he didn't.

WRONG.... Lebron NEVER said they were going to win it all..... he only jokingly said that they were gona win multiple championships.......... he didnt say there were gona win one NOW immediately......

dont even try :no:

i would like to see who is crazy enough to not agree with Lebron here actually..... who thinks that the Miami Heat will NOT win any championships....



That is the definition of fail plain and simple. Cleveland rubbed the failure right in his face, and it was so sweet. All the guy had to do was one of two things:

What failure was that? All they did was only being butthurt for him leaving.... thats what it all was about at the end of the day....



-demonstrate some class and leave on a good note

He didnt insult somebody did he? He just became a free-agent... and decided to bounce a god damn basketball in another town.... get over it...


-at least win if your going to behave like an idiot on your way out

Why the **** would he leave if he WON a championship? What kindof ridicilous logic is that?

The whole point of him leaving is that he was patient for 7 years and Dan Gilbert had his chance to build a championship team and Failed, unlike Kobe he NEVER complained about his teammates, NEVER threatened to leave or anything like that........... stop acting like he is some kindof douchebag.... he is NOT...

the only person you should be mad about is Dan Gilbert.... the man who showed his true colors afterwards...



An amazing talent on the court that gave Cleveland everything he had for 6 out of 7 years, but poor execution as far as his behavior when it was all said and done. It's no surprise that only a minority of NBA fans respect him after all of this.

What poor execution? He became a free-agent after 7 years.... saw his options and decided to either:

1. Stay "loyal" & "loved" and ringless for the rest of his career.
2. Go out and immediately try win championships...

His decision was between ending up as a TOP 50 player of all time.... or a TOP 10 player of all time....

If he chose #1 above he would have made a decision that he would regret for the rest of his life..............



As for Kobe, sorry kids but the dude is old.....so be optimistic. Let's be thankful for what he's accomplished and all the great moments. Yes he has 5 rings. Yes LeBron has 0. Stop worrying about whether or not Kobe will get 6 rings. 6 rings won't make him better than Jordan, and the lack of 6 rings won't make him any less respected than Jordan. He's a different player that played in a different era.

agree!



Whether or not LeBron will continue to fail with the 1st/2nd best player by his side is what I'm interested in.

This is the first time in Lebrons life he finally has a legit great teammate....
But he is in a completely new team... with new teammates he has to learn their and they his behaviours/tendencies on court.... not to mention chemistry.... he is also learning to play OF THE BALL for the first time in his life.... and learn to share the ball with 2 offensive powerhouses.... its a complete change of role...

Phong is good at this... be so kind and trace my old posts, you will see me GUARANTEEING MIAMI HEAT WOULD NOT WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP IMMEDIATELY.............

BUT THE NEXT YEAR... (THIS YEAR)... THEY WOULD...



What I'm concern about is how the LeBron homers will prepare for his possible failure.

that wont happen... sorry...

[Doctor Rivers]

:blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah


:sleeping

[pauk]

you're telling somebody they have no life, when all you do is talk about lebron, and gargle on his nuts. :oldlol: :facepalm MASSIVE FAIL.

No... i dont:

1. spend the entire days/nights watching games of the man i HATE just so i can create gifs/videos of those plays he missed a shot / turned the ball over or so... so i can bash him...

2. spend the entire days/nights searching all old threads and posts made years ago so i can use them to my advantage... there is no search function, so i assume it must be time conceiving....

[Heavincent]

that wont happen... sorry...

It's very, very possible. The Heat are world class chokers.

[Phong]

there is no search function, so i assume it must be time conceiving....1. There is a search function; which I didn't use because somebody already linked to that gamethread in another thread.

2. time conceiving? :roll:

[LBJFTW]

I agree... the decision on TV (although raising money for children) shouldnt have happened imo..

Not only that, but if you watch the videos he completely quit on the team at the end. At least try and go out with some dignity....


i would like to see who is crazy enough to not agree with Lebron here actually..... who thinks that the Miami Heat will NOT win any championships.... I'm sure they'll win at least one. If they don't it will be the biggest fail in the history of sports bar none.


What failure was that? All they did was only being butthurt for him leaving.... thats what it all was about at the end of the day....
The fail of him thinking (regardless if he said it openly) that he was going to simply team up with Wade and Bosh and win it all.


Why the **** would he leave if he WON a championship? What kindof ridicilous logic is that? This was in reference to him winning in Miami.


The whole point of him leaving is that he was patient for 7 years and Dan Gilbert had his chance to build a championship team and Failed, unlike Kobe he NEVER complained about his teammates, NEVER threatened to leave or anything like that........... stop acting like he is some kindof douchebag.... he is NOT...Any lack of his complaining was negated when he up and quit in those last games in Cleveland. No one in their right mind is going to say that he did anything other that give up. That's not professionalism. It's douchebaggery.


the only person you should be mad about is Dan Gilbert.... the man who showed his true colors afterwards...And what colors are these? If any Clevelander is to be mad at anyone prior to LBJ leaving, it's Danny Ferry.


What poor execution? He became a free-agent after 7 years.... saw his options and decided to either:

1. Stay "loyal" & "loved" and ringless for the rest of his career.
2. Go out and immediately try win championships...

Key word being try. We haven't seen any rings YET. It's not about his options, it's about how he left and how he quit at the end. And what becomes of it? Failure at the hands of Dirk.


Phong is good at this... be so kind and trace my old posts, you will see me GUARANTEEING MIAMI HEAT WOULD NOT WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP IMMEDIATELY.............

BUT THE NEXT YEAR... (THIS YEAR)... THEY WOULD...

I never said that you were guaranteeing they would win, I said that they may not even win this season, if there even is one.


that wont happen... sorry...

Hope your prepared to handle it if he fails.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://nsa21.casimages.com/img/2011/10/13/111013111428974196.gif

:oldlol:

[DaPerceive]

How in the world do Magic and LeBron play a like? This is getting ridiculous. If there is any all-time great that LeBron actually does resemble it is Oscar Robertson.

People REALLY overrate LeBron's passing and the ability to create for others. He is not on the level of Magic Johnson. He is more like on the level of Tracy McGrady. And honestly, I don't even think LeBron is a better scorer than Magic. Yeah I know Lebron averages and scores more ppg, but I also know that Magic (and Bird) could have scored a lot more if they wanted to.

[sh0wtime]

Good read, but to be fair these players had two very different engagements from a team standpoint. Lebron was not divined with a team, teammates and franchise of that significance, its only now that Lebron has somewhat tasted what Magic had almost his entire career. Its only after a couple of years we can start truly evaluating the context of Lebron's greatness in contrast of Magic.

He has set himself up for a potential fantastic future in Miami and isnt he only 26? Lebron will be fine, that is unless the NBA lockout has something else to say. :)

[the_wise_one]

Magic was the original Lebron - jumping on a star player's bandwagon (in his case, it's even more extreme - he joined a real GOAT candidate's team). He was the original *****.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Magic was the original Lebron - jumping on a star player's bandwagon (in his case, it's even more extreme - he joined a real GOAT candidate's team). He was the original *****.

he was drafted

[DaPerceive]

he was drafted
He is referring to the part about how Magic would have continued playing at MSU had the Bulls or another weak team drafted him. People need to credit Magic for being able to play and fit in with those guys. There is nothing more underrated than to be able to fit in and to sacrifice your stats for the good of the team.

[knightfall88]

Don't understand the comparison. Lebron sucks and Magic is a legend.:confusedshrug:

[sh0wtime]

How in the world do Magic and LeBron play a like? This is getting ridiculous. If there is any all-time great that LeBron actually does resemble it is Oscar Robertson.

People REALLY overrate LeBron's passing and the ability to create for others. He is not on the level of Magic Johnson. He is more like on the level of Tracy McGrady. And honestly, I don't even think LeBron is a better scorer than Magic. Yeah I know Lebron averages and scores more ppg, but I also know that Magic (and Bird) could have scored a lot more if they wanted to.

Have you seen Oscar Robertson play? Similar statistical numbers to some degree i guess, but thats about it, they had very different gamestyles, especially when you talk about size. Tyreke Evans, Dwyane Wade and John Wall are the type of players that should resemble Oscar Robertson more in at that specific size.

Lebron & Magic on the other hand resemble extremly much, they play different in the sense of Magic being more passing minded and Lebron being more scoring minded, but Lebron is truly reminiscent of Magic. Both were point-forwards and the best ever at it. Try watch any game by Magic during the 1980-83 seasons when Norm Nixon was the starting PG, Magic played SF/SG and was more of a point-forward, Magic's "point-forward" role in 1980-83 is identical to Lebron's today.

The motive to the resemblance is very simple i think, i am gona be a bit more thorough:

1. At Lebrons massive size nobody in NBA history had better point guard skills, namely ballhandling, passing ability and court vision except for Magic Johnson. This does not mean that Lebron was at that level in terms of point guard skills, but that he is at that size the next closest we ever had to Magic in terms of point guard skills, at that size, remember the key word here is "size". Lebron's point guard skills are fantastic compared to any point guard today, he has proved it over and over, i certainly even remember him averaging a triple double in a span of 12 games when Mo Williams was injured as he officially started point guard, averaging over 12 assists a game and they won all those games. Great point guard skills and the next best point guard skills at that size in contrast of Magic, but still far considering Magic did not only possess the best point guard skills at that size, but the best of anybody in NBA history.

2. As far as i remember Lebron was the 2nd 6'8"+ player in NBA history to be drafted PG, the 1st one was guess who?

3. Last but not least, versatility in terms of position. Lebron & Magic are the only players in NBA history who actually started 4 and arguably 5 positions during their career. Not only did they start-play them, but they could have dominated any of those positions. Nobody was ever that versatile position wise as Lebron & Magic, unless you can think of somebody else?
This versatility is ofcourse the result of having those point guard skills at that big size, the size allows for them to play the forward positions and the ballhandling, passing, court vision, scoring allows them to play the guard positions.

They are not clones, but yes, the similarity is most definitely there. The similarity would have been even greater if Lebron actually decided to officially start point guard for the rest of his career and he can do it believe you me! How many 6'8"+ point guards was there anyways? Only one.

[Rooster]

Magic thrived undef pressure while Lebron choked everytime.

Lebron is the better version of Dominique Wilkins.

[DaPerceive]

Have you seen Oscar Robertson play? Similar statistical numbers to some degree i guess, but thats about it, they had very different gamestyles, especially when you talk about size. Tyreke Evans, Dwyane Wade and John Wall are the type of players that should resemble Oscar Robertson more in at that specific size.

Lebron & Magic on the other hand resemble extremly much, they play different in the sense of Magic being more passing minded and Lebron being more scoring minded, but Lebron is truly reminiscent of Magic. Both were point-forwards and the best ever at it. Try watch any game by Magic during the 1980-83 seasons when Norm Nixon was the starting PG, Magic played SF/SG and was more of a point-forward, Magic's "point-forward" role in 1980-83 is identical to Lebron's today.

The motive to the resemblance is very simple i think, i am gona be a bit more thorough:

1. At Lebrons massive size nobody in NBA history had better point guard skills, namely ballhandling, passing ability and court vision except for Magic Johnson. This does not mean that Lebron was at that level in terms of point guard skills, but that he is at that size the next closest we ever had to Magic in terms of point guard skills, at that size, remember the key word here is "size". Lebron's point guard skills are fantastic compared to any point guard today, he has proved it over and over, i certainly even remember him averaging a triple double in a span of 12 games when Mo Williams was injured as he officially started point guard, averaging over 12 assists a game and they won all those games. Great point guard skills and the next best point guard skills at that size in contrast of Magic, but still far considering Magic did not only possess the best point guard skills at that size, but the best of anybody in NBA history.

2. As far as i remember Lebron was the 2nd 6'8"+ player in NBA history to be drafted PG, the 1st one was guess who?

3. Last but not least, versatility in terms of position. Lebron & Magic are the only players in NBA history who actually started 4 and arguably 5 positions during their career. Not only did they start-play them, but they could have dominated any of those positions. Nobody was ever that versatile position wise as Lebron & Magic, unless you can think of somebody else?
This versatility is ofcourse the result of having those point guard skills at that big size, the size allows for them to play the forward positions and the ballhandling, passing, court vision, scoring allows them to play the guard positions.

They are not clones, but yes, the similarity is most definitely there. The similarity would have been even greater if Lebron actually decided to officially start point guard for the rest of his career and he can do it believe you me! How many 6'8"+ point guards was there anyways? Only one.
Yeah.... you either didn't watch one or the other play or you didn't watch either one of them play. .

[sh0wtime]

Yeah.... you either didn't watch one or the other play or you didn't watch either one of them play. .

I have 500+ VHS-DVD Laker games that say i did watch at least one game by Magic. :) I am not genuinely sure if you did read everything i said above though, because i just cant apprehend what you could possibly disharmonize with and you did not really give me any indication to what you disharmonize with either with that post.

[DaPerceive]

I have 500+ VHS-DVD Laker games that say i did watch at least one game by Magic. :) I am not genuinely sure if you did read everything i said above though, because i just cant apprehend what you could possibly disharmonize with and you did not really give me any indication to what you disharmonize with either with that post.
Maybe you should start paying attention when watching those Lakers games. Magic and LeBron have nothing in common other than their size. If somebody has to explain it to you how LeBron and Magic aren't alike then I don't know what to say. LeBron resembles The Big O, not Magic.

[L8kersfan222]

bumping a Pauk thread so he can get negged easier.

[Deuce Bigalow]

bumping a Pauk thread so he can get negged easier.

:oldlol:
i would rep, but i ran out

[Phong]

I'm owed months worth of repping. :pimp:

[kaiiu]

http://nsa21.casimages.com/img/2011/10/13/111013111428974196.gif
damnnnnnnn

[Asukal]

http://nsa21.casimages.com/img/2011/10/13/111013111428974196.gif

Best post of the thread! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[D-Wade316]

http://nsa21.casimages.com/img/2011/10/13/111013111428974196.gif
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[D-Wade316]

I'm owed months worth of repping. :pimp:
:cheers:

[pauk]

lol Phong has indeed GIF making skills tho... i give u that :oldlol:

did u make that one phong?

[sh0wtime]

Maybe you should start paying attention when watching those Lakers games. Magic and LeBron have nothing in common other than their size. If somebody has to explain it to you how LeBron and Magic aren't alike then I don't know what to say. LeBron resembles The Big O, not Magic.

I have been watching Earvin live since 1983 mind you and he is my favorite player of all time, so please be careful with your words and i did inform you where their games most resemble during 1980-83 when Norm Nixon was the point guard, where Magic was a SF-SG, did you see any of those games?

Here is one, its enough if you just watch 30 seconds of this game after the tip to see the resemblance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=61WdSZwscUg#t=486s

You have to be the first human here i have met who doesnt see any resemblance at all between Lebron's & Magic's games at the specific size & being point-forwards. Ofcourse they are no clones, but the similarity is there? Once again, you didnt give any indication to why you dont see any resemblance at all?

Only two players ever that were drafted PG at 6'8"+.
Only two players ever that were that versatile in terms of position's.
Only two players ever that had that great point guard skills at such a size, Magic's was obviously better but thats not the point.
Only two players ever that were that good point-forwards.

Lebron has said he patterned alot of his game after Magic.
Magic himself has numerous times mentioned the resemblance.

Really? You see nothing? Does this denial of yours have anything to do with lets say, a certain dislike for mr James? :)

Magic Johnson was extremly unique, i dont think we will ever see somebody 6'8"+ ever play point guard again, Lebron did that but i am talking about starting-playing point guard the entire career almost and certainly not at Magic's level.

Penny Hardaway
Scottie Pippen
Grant Hill
Lamar Odom
Shaun Livingston
Lebron James

All these players had more or less of a resemblance in contrast of Magic whether you like it or not, i am a huge "point-forward" fan mind you. :)

[Dragonyeuw]

Man, watching that vid, I forgot how quick Norm Nixon was.

[Legends66NBA7]

sh0wtime dropping knowledge on Magic.

Never got to watch him, but my dad used to tell me how he was one of the hardest guys to stop on the basketball court.

His impact helped his teammates that much more than anyone realizes.

[rodman91]

Lebron is an ugly hybrid.He has got magic's scoring power and Jordan's playmaking skills.Also Magic's fat ass and Jordan's bald.

Lebron in '11 finals:oldlol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0XIWdmmZuA&feature=related

[bizil]

Have you seen Oscar Robertson play? Similar statistical numbers to some degree i guess, but thats about it, they had very different gamestyles, especially when you talk about size. Tyreke Evans, Dwyane Wade and John Wall are the type of players that should resemble Oscar Robertson more in at that specific size.

Lebron & Magic on the other hand resemble extremly much, they play different in the sense of Magic being more passing minded and Lebron being more scoring minded, but Lebron is truly reminiscent of Magic. Both were point-forwards and the best ever at it. Try watch any game by Magic during the 1980-83 seasons when Norm Nixon was the starting PG, Magic played SF/SG and was more of a point-forward, Magic's "point-forward" role in 1980-83 is identical to Lebron's today.

The motive to the resemblance is very simple i think, i am gona be a bit more thorough:

1. At Lebrons massive size nobody in NBA history had better point guard skills, namely ballhandling, passing ability and court vision except for Magic Johnson. This does not mean that Lebron was at that level in terms of point guard skills, but that he is at that size the next closest we ever had to Magic in terms of point guard skills, at that size, remember the key word here is "size". Lebron's point guard skills are fantastic compared to any point guard today, he has proved it over and over, i certainly even remember him averaging a triple double in a span of 12 games when Mo Williams was injured as he officially started point guard, averaging over 12 assists a game and they won all those games. Great point guard skills and the next best point guard skills at that size in contrast of Magic, but still far considering Magic did not only possess the best point guard skills at that size, but the best of anybody in NBA history.

2. As far as i remember Lebron was the 2nd 6'8"+ player in NBA history to be drafted PG, the 1st one was guess who?

3. Last but not least, versatility in terms of position. Lebron & Magic are the only players in NBA history who actually started 4 and arguably 5 positions during their career. Not only did they start-play them, but they could have dominated any of those positions. Nobody was ever that versatile position wise as Lebron & Magic, unless you can think of somebody else?
This versatility is ofcourse the result of having those point guard skills at that big size, the size allows for them to play the forward positions and the ballhandling, passing, court vision, scoring allows them to play the guard positions.

They are not clones, but yes, the similarity is most definitely there. The similarity would have been even greater if Lebron actually decided to officially start point guard for the rest of his career and he can do it believe you me! How many 6'8"+ point guards was there anyways? Only one.


Awesome post! I love the Tyreke-Big O comparison! I feel size, skillset, and athletic ability wise they are similar. I think people sleep on Wade and even to an extent MJ on their similarities to Big O. The main difference is that MJ and Wade played more SG and they were freakish athletes. But in terms of being a true total package and able to play multiple positions at that size and dominate, Big O is the blueprint for all players 6'6 and under to an extent. Guys like MJ and Wade added the freakish athletic ability to it.

Magic and Bron are damn similar. The difference is Bron's freakish athletic ability and more scoring minded skillset. And people forget that Bron at first played PG for the Cavs. And people often forget that Magic teamed with and All Star PG in Norm Nixon. So Magic at that time was playing a more swiss army type role who would play 1-5. It was later that he settled into that PG role, even though he would swing to other spots at times. I do feel Magic had the killer instinct and scoring ability to score as many points than Bron.

And Magic proved he was a Batman scorer and clutch (definitely more clutch than Bron) whenever he chose to be. But Magic was a PG first and as u stated had the best PG skills of all time in a 6'9 body. Which is insane. Bron has awesome PG skills too. He has better PG skills than most PG's. But I think he's a hair behind Magic, Stockton, Kidd, Nash, Big O, or Isiah. But I feel his PG skills are on par with any of the other great PG's. And they are better than other multi talented SG's or SF's capable of point guard or point forward roles such as Barry, Bird, Hondo, Pippen, Kobe, Hill, Penny, or MJ.

[bizil]

I have been watching Earvin live since 1983 mind you and he is my favorite player of all time, so please be careful with your words and i did inform you where their games most resemble during 1980-83 when Norm Nixon was the point guard, where Magic was a SF-SG, did you see any of those games?

Here is one, its enough if you just watch 30 seconds of this game after the tip to see the resemblance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=61WdSZwscUg#t=486s

You have to be the first human here i have met who doesnt see any resemblance at all between Lebron's & Magic's games at the specific size & being point-forwards. Ofcourse they are no clones, but the similarity is there? Once again, you didnt give any indication to why you dont see any resemblance at all?

Only two players ever that were drafted PG at 6'8"+.
Only two players ever that were that versatile in terms of position's.
Only two players ever that had that great point guard skills at such a size, Magic's was obviously better but thats not the point.
Only two players ever that were that good point-forwards.

Lebron has said he patterned alot of his game after Magic.
Magic himself has numerous times mentioned the resemblance.

Really? You see nothing? Does this denial of yours have anything to do with lets say, a certain dislike for mr James? :)

Magic Johnson was extremly unique, i dont think we will ever see somebody 6'8"+ ever play point guard again, Lebron did that but i am talking about starting-playing point guard the entire career almost and certainly not at Magic's level.

Penny Hardaway
Scottie Pippen
Grant Hill
Lamar Odom
Shaun Livingston
Lebron James

All these players had more or less of a resemblance in contrast of Magic whether you like it or not, i am a huge "point-forward" fan mind you. :)

Great post! I've always been intrigued by the big PG or point forward type of player. I think Bird and Barry were point forward type of players. I just think that their handles were the difference between them and the guys u named. Magic, Penny, Bron, etc. had PG type of ball handling skills to go with the passing and mind. Bird and Barry didn't have PG type handles, but they had PG type vision.

I think three guys that are underrated at that 6'7 to 6'8 range for those type of Point guard or Point Forward skills are Reggie Theus, Jalen Rose, and Steve Smith. Their haven't been many guys to play most of their minutes at PG that are 6'7 and up consistently for a season, let alone a career. I can just think of Magic, Penny, Steve Smith, and Jalen Rose. And I don't mean a point forward role. But an actual PG role where u are paired with with a legit SG and a legit SF.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Lebron should start to emulate Magic if he wants to be successfull. The problem is he doesn't have the basketball IQ, the instincts, or the mental toughness that Magic had. Lebron is an amazing talent but there's only 1 Magic Johnson.

[pauk]

yea man...... i think its the time for him to watch some Magic games.... this is what the team needs... this team is athletic... they need to run... just like the lakers in 80s did..... with Wade on one end and Bosh on the other... they can do heavy damage.... would expect Lebron to be a 24-8-10 guy..... add a nasty post game aswell.... then its done! imagine those PG midgets trying to guard lebron in the post lol

Lebron has the 3rd best PPG in NBA history... so he is also Heats most productive scorer... but he can afford to calm down with it on this team... he can just dish out and step up scoring wise when they need him to...

plus they will have their BEST lineup on the floor if he starts PG...

PG - Lebron
SG - Wade
SF - Miller or JJ
PF - Bosh
C - ?

lol they really need a Center........ they dont have one... Joel Anthony? 6'8"-'6'9"... he is not bigger than Lebron for gods sake... :lol

[rodman91]

Lebron needs a reliable post game most.And play agressive like his early years in Cavs.

Jumpers or playmaking from outside of 3 point line shouldn't be his first options.He can still have great numbers like that but it takes dominance away.

I hated when T-Mac and Vince turned into shooters even they still had great shape.

[bizil]

yea man...... i think its the time for him to watch some Magic games.... this is what the team needs... this team is athletic... they need to run... just like the lakers in 80s did..... with Wade on one end and Bosh on the other... they can do heavy damage.... would expect Lebron to be a 24-8-10 guy..... add a nasty post game aswell.... then its done! imagine those PG midgets trying to guard lebron in the post lol

Lebron has the 3rd best PPG in NBA history... so he is also Heats most productive scorer... but he can afford to calm down with it on this team... he can just dish out and step up scoring wise when they need him to...

plus they will have their BEST lineup on the floor if he starts PG...

PG - Lebron
SG - Wade
SF - Miller or JJ
PF - Bosh
C - ?

lol they really need a Center........ they dont have one... Joel Anthony? 6'8"-'6'9"... he is not bigger than Lebron for gods sake... :lol

I dig that lineup u laid out! I've always thought for that team, they should roll with that lineup. Cause u would have an outside scoring threat in Miller or JJ. And Bron is athletic enough to guard small PG's as well. Wade can guard smaller PG's as well. But one guy I would LOVE to end up on the Heat is Nash! He gives them more shooting and would allow Bron and Wade to be in attack mode and run the wings on the break. But if they don't get a floor general like Nash or another veteran very good-great PG, I feel they should put Bron at PG. And yes Bron needs to get that post game together. That's more important to be than him developing a better three point shot. And it will add years to his career in terms of being a dominant player. Magic at 36 or 37 came back as a PF and was still killin it in a point power forward role. I feel Magic could have produced even more if he wanted to, he just chose to come off the bench and be like a teacher. But even then, Magic was the best player on the Lakers in my book.

[BlackJoker23]

yea man...... i think its the time for him to watch some Magic games.... this is what the team needs... this team is athletic... they need to run... just like the lakers in 80s did..... with Wade on one end and Bosh on the other... they can do heavy damage.... would expect Lebron to be a 24-8-10 guy..... add a nasty post game aswell.... then its done! imagine those PG midgets trying to guard lebron in the post lol

Lebron has the 3rd best PPG in NBA history... so he is also Heats most productive scorer... but he can afford to calm down with it on this team... he can just dish out and step up scoring wise when they need him to...

plus they will have their BEST lineup on the floor if he starts PG...

PG - Lebron
SG - Wade
SF - Miller or JJ
PF - Bosh
C - ?

lol they really need a Center........ they dont have one... Joel Anthony? 6'8"-'6'9"... he is not bigger than Lebron for gods sake... :lol
your mother should have swallowed

[bizil]

Lebron should start to emulate Magic if he wants to be successfull. The problem is he doesn't have the basketball IQ, the instincts, or the mental toughness that Magic had. Lebron is an amazing talent but there's only 1 Magic Johnson.

Agreed! In terms of IQ, Bron has that in spades. But Magic in the ultimate in my book. In the L right now, I think Bron is in the top five passers in the L. I think the top four are Nash, Paul, Kidd, and D Will. These are the ONLY type of PG's I feel are better than Bron in terms of court vision and droppin dimes. Magic,Stock, Isiah, and Big O are the pinnacle of it. I think Bron is in that next group and a hair behind. But those guys don't have Bron's mix of size, freakish athletic ability, and defense. So Bron has traits that those guys don't have as well. I feel as a passer Bron in on another level than guys like Pip and GHill. I think Bron and Bird is damn close, but Bron has PG type handle while Bird didnt.