TOP 10 has begun on ESPN.com - #8 will make a lot of noise

[OmniStrife]

10. Blake Griffin :roll:
09. Deron Williams
08. Derrick Rose - 1st MVP to be the 8th best player in the league?
07. Kobe Bryant
06. Kevin Durant
05. Dirk Nowitzki
04.
03.
02.
01.

Remaining players: (Dirk, Wade, Dwight, Bron, Kobe, Durant, CP3)


SHIT JUST GOT REAL

http://dc360.4shared.com/img/2BdXtK46/s3/dis_gonna_b_gud.gif

[greensborohill]

porb Dirk, ESPN loves sh!tting on him

[Clippersfan86]

10. Blake Griffin :roll:
09. Deron Williams
08. (Kobe / Dirk / Rose / Bron)
07.
06.
05.
04.
03.
02.
01.

Remaining players: (Dirk, Wade, Dwight, Rose, Bron, Kobe, Durant, CP3)

Now they gave a hint that now there are 4 guys remaining with an MVP.
After 08 is announced there will be 3 left meaning.

08. is one of these guys: Kobe, Rose, Dirk, LeBron

SHIT JUST GOT REAL

http://dc360.4shared.com/img/2BdXtK46/s3/dis_gonna_b_gud.gif

Nice good for them. I had Deron at 8 or 9 and Griffin at 10 too. I wonder how similar to my list theirs will be.

[Rnbizzle]

Lol @ them having Bron possibly at 8. The lowest they'll have him is 2.

[Clippersfan86]

Lol @ them having Bron possibly at 8. The lowest they'll have him is 2.

Yea. Bron will be 2nd after Dwight or 1st for sure.

[DC Zephyrs]

8. Rose
7. Durant
6. Kobe
5. Paul
4. Wade
3. Dirk
2. Howard
1. Lebron

[guy]

Blake Griffin over guys like Melo, Gasol, Amare, and ZBo is a joke. I'm sure it won't be long before he does surpass those guys, but he hasn't done enough yet to warrant that. I personally think Melo and Amare should be #9 and #10 even over Deron but of the players remaining, Deron is in the right place.

I think CP3 should be #8, but I guess that won't be happening. At his best he's better then Derrick Rose, but he's been too injury prone and has lost a step to warrant that IMO. Clearly Rose is going to be #8 here, but IMO he should be ahead of CP3 and Kobe. Kobe has clearly lost a step and can't shoulder that great of a weight on offense anymore and he's obviously not that great defensively anymore.

I think the top 15 should be this:

1. Dirk
2. Wade
3. Dwight
4. Lebron
5. Durant
6. Rose
7. Kobe
8. CP3
9. Melo
10. Amare
11. Deron
12. ZBo
13. Gasol
14. Blake
15. Pierce

I'm guessing ESPN's top 8 will look like this:

8. Rose
7. CP3
6. Durant
5. Howard
4. Kobe
3. Wade
2. Dirk
1. Lebron

[Clippersfan86]

Blake Griffin over guys like Melo, Gasol, Amare, and ZBo is a joke. I'm sure it won't be long before he does surpass those guys, but he hasn't done enough yet to warrant that. I personally think Melo and Amare should be #9 and #10 even over Deron but of the players remaining, Deron is in the right place.

I think CP3 should be #8, but I guess that won't be happening. At his best he's better then Derrick Rose, but he's been too injury prone and has lost a step to warrant that IMO. Clearly Rose is going to be #8 here, but IMO he should be ahead of CP3 and Kobe. Kobe has clearly lost a step and can't shoulder that great of a weight on offense anymore and he's obviously not that great defensively anymore.

I think the top 15 should be this:

1. Dirk
2. Wade
3. Dwight
4. Lebron
5. Durant
6. Rose
7. Kobe
8. CP3
9. Melo
10. Amare
11. Deron
12. ZBo
13. Gasol
14. Blake
15. Pierce

I'm guessing ESPN's top 8 will look like this:

8. Rose
7. CP3
6. Durant
5. Howard
4. Kobe
3. Wade
2. Dirk
1. Lebron

Explain to me why Melo, Gasol, Zbo and Amare should be unquestioned picks above Blake when ranking INDIVIDUAL players/talent? You apparently are getting hung up on the fact that a rookie didn't lead his team to the playoffs (even the great ones don't do it too often). The ONLY player I think has a strong case to be over Blake out of the ones you listed is Amare. Why? Because he has slightly better all around stats AND made the playoffs.

Melo and Amare both had less impact on the Knicks than Griffin did on the Clippers. Not to mention Zbo and Gasol are both worse in every way than Griffin pretty much. Gasol is a better defender, that's it. Griffin has them beat in passing, rebounding, scoring. I don't understand why people can't handle him being the 10th best player with the whole "It's too soon". Reminds me of rookie Jordan getting frozen out at the all star game. Those players also thought he was just a dunker, flashy player who was getting praise too early.

Greatness can't be denied. Before Eric Gordon went down with injury (allowing teams to triple team Blake a lot last couple months of season) Blake actually pushed his stats up to 23, 13 and 3.7 apg. Those are MVP level stats as a rookie. If the Clippers stayed healthy and made playoffs he would of had a legit shot at MVP despite being a rookie. Blake averaged 26 ppg, 14 rpg and 5 apg for a 2 month stretch.

We saw how much he improved month to month most of last season. Imagine how improved he will be coming out of this summer? He didn't have to spend whole time rehabbing, and got to do a lot of skill and conditioning work.

BTW you putting Howard at 5 is that a joke? ESPN and the rest of the world knows he's number 2 at worst.

[JordanTime]

lol if Lebron James is put 8th. No way he is put below 2nd.

Lebron James at worst is 2nd.

My list.

Lebron James
Dwyane Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwight Howard
Derrick Rose
Kevin Durant
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Deron Williams
Blake Griffin

[Captainredbeard]

I dont think Griffin deserves to be in the top 20! He was just an athletic big man. Not that great of post moves, just can dunk a basketball at a high level. He doesn't have a very good jumpshot. He is a good high energy player and defensive player. Don't get me wrong he has a ton of potential and will be in the top 10 next year most likely if his jumpshot improves. He just does not deserve to be in the top 20 right now.

[greensborohill]

Updated it, it's Rose 9.27

[greensborohill]

lol if Lebron James is put 8th. No way he is put below 2nd.

Lebron James at worst is 2nd.

My list.

Lebron James
Dwyane Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwight Howard
Derrick Rose
Kevin Durant
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Deron Williams
Blake Griffin

makes you ask, if a team with 1 and 2 (along w/ 24) lose to a team led by #3, is #3 REALLY #3?

[JordanTime]

10. Blake Griffin :roll:
09. Deron Williams
08. (Kobe / Dirk / Rose / Bron)
07.
06.
05.
04.
03.
02.
01.

Remaining players: (Dirk, Wade, Dwight, Rose, Bron, Kobe, Durant, CP3)

Now they gave a hint that now there are 4 guys remaining with an MVP.
After 08 is announced there will be 3 left meaning.

08. is one of these guys: Kobe, Rose, Dirk, LeBron


Its Kobe.

[Clippersfan86]

I dont think Griffin deserves to be in the top 20! He was just an athletic big man. Not that great of post moves, just can dunk a basketball at a high level. He doesn't have a very good jumpshot. He is a good high energy player and defensive player. Don't get me wrong he has a ton of potential and will be in the top 10 next year most likely if his jumpshot improves. He just does not deserve to be in the top 20 right now.

I agree. His defense is great and he's a defensive minded player.

[JordanTime]

makes you ask, if a team with 1 and 2 (along w/ 24) lose to a team led by #3, is #3 REALLY #3?

What?

I put Dirk as the 3rd best player, because he is not better than Lebron James, or Dwyane Wade. He isn't even better than Dwight Howard as well.

[greensborohill]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7113439/nba-player-rankings-8

Rose

[OmniStrife]

8 updated.

1st MVP to be the 8th best player in the league??

[greensborohill]

What?

I put Dirk as the 3rd best player, because he is not better than Lebron James, or Dwyane Wade.

Then how the fvck did they lose? They're #1 & #2, right?

[greensborohill]

8 updated.

you dah man!

[Clippersfan86]

8th is fair for rose. Durant will probably be 6th or 7th. CP3, Wade, Howard, Lebron and Dirk are going to be the top 5 no question IMO (not in order).

[Fazotronic]

Explain to me why Melo, Gasol, Zbo and Amare should be unquestioned picks above Blake when ranking INDIVIDUAL players/talent? You apparently are getting hung up on the fact that a rookie didn't lead his team to the playoffs (even the great ones don't do it too often). The ONLY player I think has a strong case to be over Blake out of the ones you listed is Amare. Why? Because he has slightly better all around stats AND made the playoffs.

Melo and Amare both had less impact on the Knicks than Griffin did on the Clippers. Not to mention Zbo and Gasol are both worse in every way than Griffin pretty much. Gasol is a better defender, that's it. Griffin has them beat in passing, rebounding, scoring. I don't understand why people can't handle him being the 10th best player with the whole "It's too soon". Reminds me of rookie Jordan getting frozen out at the all star game. Those players also thought he was just a dunker, flashy player who was getting praise too early.

Greatness can't be denied. Before Eric Gordon went down with injury (allowing teams to triple team Blake a lot last couple months of season) Blake actually pushed his stats up to 23, 13 and 3.7 apg. Those are MVP level stats as a rookie. If the Clippers stayed healthy and made playoffs he would of had a legit shot at MVP despite being a rookie. Blake averaged 26 ppg, 14 rpg and 5 apg for a 2 month stretch.

We saw how much he improved month to month most of last season. Imagine how improved he will be coming out of this summer? He didn't have to spend whole time rehabbing, and got to do a lot of skill and conditioning work.

BTW you putting Howard at 5 is that a joke? ESPN and the rest of the world knows he's number 2 at worst.

dude. blake is playing purely on talent at the moment and you just said that the only thing gasol is better at, is defense.
you serious?

[alenleomessi]

how it should be:
1.Lebron
2.Howard
3.Wade
4.Dirk
5.Cp3
6.Durant
7.Kobe

how it would be:
1.Lebron
2.Dirk
3.Wade
4.Howard
5.Kobe
6.Durant
7.CP3

[Clippersfan86]

dude. blake is playing purely on talent at the moment and you just said that the only thing gasol is better at, is defense.
you serious?

Doesn't matter if Blake is getting by on physicality, sheer talent or w/e. Doesn't matter if Gasol is playing a skill game. Blake Griffin is better than Gasol. I'm 100 percent confident any coach or star player in the league would trade Gasol for Blake... even if Gasol had an identical contract.

Gasol may be a higher all around impact player in general due to his experience in the league.... but when it comes to individual talent which is what this list is about... Blake kills Gasol. Yes the only thing Blake is worse at than Gasol is defense.

Griffin beats Gasol at his own secret weapon. Passing and playmaking. Gasol was 2nd in assists after Blake for bigmen but Blake beat him by a pretty good margin. Griffin had 2 triple doubles this year and 7 games where he missed a triple double by 2 assists or less.

Griffin: 22.5 ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg, .7 spg, .5 bpg on 51 percent shooting.

Gasol: 19 ppg, 10 rpg, 3.3 apg, .6 spg, 1.5 bpg on 53 percent shooting.

When you look at these stats I think both have a case but it's absolutely not absurd to say Griffin is the better or an equal individual talent. Gasol is in his prime, Griffin a sophomore. That's what makes this more compelling.

[guy]

Explain to me why Melo, Gasol, Zbo and Amare should be unquestioned picks above Blake when ranking INDIVIDUAL players/talent? You apparently are getting hung up on the fact that a rookie didn't lead his team to the playoffs (even the great ones don't do it too often). The ONLY player I think has a strong case to be over Blake out of the ones you listed is Amare. Why? Because he has slightly better all around stats AND made the playoffs.

Melo and Amare both had less impact on the Knicks than Griffin did on the Clippers. Not to mention Zbo and Gasol are both worse in every way than Griffin pretty much. Gasol is a better defender, that's it. Griffin has them beat in passing, rebounding, scoring. I don't understand why people can't handle him being the 10th best player with the whole "It's too soon". Reminds me of rookie Jordan getting frozen out at the all star game. Those players also thought he was just a dunker, flashy player who was getting praise too early.

Greatness can't be denied. Before Eric Gordon went down with injury (allowing teams to triple team Blake a lot last couple months of season) Blake actually pushed his stats up to 23, 13 and 3.7 apg. Those are MVP level stats as a rookie. If the Clippers stayed healthy and made playoffs he would of had a legit shot at MVP despite being a rookie. Blake averaged 26 ppg, 14 rpg and 5 apg for a 2 month stretch.

We saw how much he improved month to month most of last season. Imagine how improved he will be coming out of this summer? He didn't have to spend whole time rehabbing, and got to do a lot of skill and conditioning work.

BTW you putting Howard at 5 is that a joke? ESPN and the rest of the world knows he's number 2 at worst.

Melo and Amare were still as individually great last year as they've ever been and they've actually led their teams to deep playoff runs in the recent past. And unless its an elite PG, great players almost always have greater impacts on teams with less talent around them.

He just has them beat statistically. Stats are obviously going to look a bit better on a bad team. Z-Bo was great statistically during the season and dominated the best team in the West in the playoffs. Gasol had a horrible playoffs, but I can't just ignore what he did in the past 3 regular seasons, and in the playoffs during their title runs. And the difference between this and what I said about Rose vs. CP3 and Kobe is that CP3 and Kobe have already been on the decline and look like they will continue to decline. I don't think the same about Gasol and Z-Bo yet. And if you're basing most of these things on stats, then there's no reason to not put Kevin Love ahead of all these players as well.

Its more about what those guys have been able to prove vs. what Blake has. Its not really his fault cause he hasn't been able to prove anything since he hasn't been able to play in a better situation where he would play in big games. Like I said, I'm sure Blake will surpass all of them sooner rather then later.

And I didn't rank Howard as #5, I said #3. I just think thats what they'll rank him as. They love Kobe and ignore his decline, and they love Lebron and ignore his constant disappearing acts.

[EricForman]

Royce Webb has been trying to be all clever dropping hints that he thinks is subtle, but really it's blatant. Kobe is 7. lock it in. He hinted it by saying 7 is an MVP winner and has a rabid delusional fanbase. So who else?

[JordanTime]

Then how the fvck did they lose? They're #1 & #2, right?

outside of Wade/Lebron/Bosh the team sucks. That is the main reason they lost.

The Mavs role players stepped up when it matter the most. We saw what happened in game 6 when Dirk was missing every shot, (1-12 in the first half i believe) but luckily for him Jason Terry, Tyson Chandler stellar defensive post presences, JJ Barrea the Mavs were winning.

And Rick Carlisle did a wonderful job making Lebron James passive.

[Clippersfan86]

Melo and Amare were still as individually great last year as they've ever been and they've actually led their teams to deep playoff runs in the recent past. And unless its an elite PG, great players almost always have greater impacts on teams with less talent around them.

He just has them beat statistically. Stats are obviously going to look a bit better on a bad team. Z-Bo was great statistically during the season and dominated the best team in the West in the playoffs. Gasol had a horrible playoffs, but I can't just ignore what he did in the past 3 regular seasons, and in the playoffs during their title runs. And the difference between this and what I said about Rose vs. CP3 and Kobe is that CP3 and Kobe have already been on the decline and look like they will continue to decline. I don't think the same about Gasol and Z-Bo yet.

Its more about what those guys have been able to prove vs. what Blake has. Its not really his fault cause he hasn't been able to prove anything since he hasn't been able to play in a better situation where he would play in big games. Like I said, I'm sure Blake will surpass all of them sooner rather then later.

And I didn't rank Howard as #5, I said #3. I just think thats what they'll rank him as. They love Kobe and ignore his decline, and they love Lebron and ignore his constant disappearing acts.

I understand your point man. I'm just saying me or ESPN saying Blake is the 10th best player isn't disrespectful in any way. If they ranked him top 5 fine... but he has a great case against the other 10-15 spots. It's unfair for us to judge him based on team success as a rookie or to say Melo has accomplished more in his career etc. This ESPN ranking is about rank of a players skill and talent NOW. I doubt they are really factoring in past success etc.

[Clippersfan86]

My list I posted in ESPN's top 20 thread other day. Let's see how close I am.

1. Dwight Howard
2. Lebron James
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Chris Paul
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Kevin Durant
8. Deron Williams
9. Derrick Rose
10. Blake Griffin

So far I got Deron/Rose crossed...

[mountainmamba]

RoyceWebb Royce Webb, ESPN NBA
#NBArank hint: There are three players with MVPs in the top 7. When No. 7 is announced, there will be two remaining.

So number 7 is an MVP too. Gotta be kobe. no way they let dirk or lebron slip this low

[greensborohill]

outside of Wade/Lebron/Bosh the team sucks. That is the main reason they lost.

The Mavs role players stepped up when it matter the most. We saw what happened in game 6 when Dirk was missing every shot, (1-12 in the first half i believe) but luckily for him Jason Terry, Tyson Chandler stellar defensive post presences, JJ Barrea the Mavs were winning.

And Rick Carlisle did a wonderful job making Lebron James passive.

In basketball, 5 players from each team can be on the court at one time, right?

Football you get 11, Baseball 9, but in basketball you get 5?

And in crunch time, you're saying that in your mind, the Heat had the #1, #2, and #24 guys in the entire NBA playing as 3 of their 5? But yet they got beat by a team with (in your mind) #3, two other guys that are low in the top 50, and two other guys that are in the 70's (I think). But you justify them being #1 & #2 b/c Dallas had a better bench? But only 5 guys can play at a time?

Sure, makes sense to me.

At some point people need to stop looking at empty azz sh!tty azz stats and look at a players impact on the game. If #1 & #2 couldn't finish off #3, then #3 isn't #3. . . he's #1.

[EricForman]

My list I posted in ESPN's top 20 thread other day. Let's see how close I am.

1. Dwight Howard
2. Lebron James
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Chris Paul
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Kevin Durant
8. Deron Williams
9. Derrick Rose
10. Blake Griffin

So far I got Deron in the wrong place and Amare not sure if he's even available.

Lebron is gonna be 1. Durant cant be lower than 4. i'm not necessarly saying how i feel but how this ESPN list will play out.

[greensborohill]

RoyceWebb Royce Webb, ESPN NBA
#NBArank hint: There are three players with MVPs in the top 7. When No. 7 is announced, there will be two remaining.

So number 7 is an MVP too. Gotta be kobe. no way they let dirk or lebron slip this low

I think it's Dirk. It's 91 different opinions that they are taking the average of. . . . it's Dirk.

[bagelred]

The MVP award officially became a joke when Steve Nash won it not once, but TWICE. After that, you can't really take it seriously anymore.

That being said, Rose did deserve it, so.......


Also, I would be SHOCKED if Lebron is anything less than #1.

[mountainmamba]

I think it's Dirk. It's 91 different opinions that they are taking the average of. . . . it's Dirk.


Fresh off a championship? My guess is kobe.

[EricForman]

I think it's Dirk. It's 91 different opinions that they are taking the average of. . . . it's Dirk.


No. Royce Webb, thinking he's clever with his hints, gave away too much. He said a former MVP with a rabid fanbase is in the lower five.

It's Kobe. And really, after Dirk's ridiculous playoff run, you really think he could be ranked this low? This is CURRENT rankings, I know Kobe's done alot, but 7 right now isn't really that insulting. Like I mentioned earlier, the gap between, say, #4, and #8 is minimal anyway.

[EricForman]

I think it's Dirk. It's 91 different opinions that they are taking the average of. . . . it's Dirk.


No. Royce Webb, thinking he's clever with his hints, gave away too much. He said a former MVP with a rabid fanbase is in the lower five.

It's Kobe. And really, after Dirk's ridiculous playoff run, you really think he could be ranked this low? This is CURRENT rankings, I know Kobe's done alot, but 7 right now isn't really that insulting. Like I mentioned earlier, the gap between, say, #4, and #8 is minimal anyway.

[guy]

I understand your point man. I'm just saying me or ESPN saying Blake is the 10th best player isn't disrespectful in any way. If they ranked him top 5 fine... but he has a great case against the other 10-15 spots. It's unfair for us to judge him based on team success as a rookie or to say Melo has accomplished more in his career etc. This ESPN ranking is about rank of a players skill and talent NOW. I doubt they are really factoring in past success etc.

If they're putting Kobe and CP3 ahead of Rose, they're absolutely taking past success into account, at least to an extent. If this is about players now and what they could in the future, there's no reason the top 5 wouldn't be something like Lebron-Howard-Durant-Rose-Griffin.

[Clippersfan86]

Lebron is gonna be 1. Durant cant be lower than 4. i'm not necessarly saying how i feel but how this ESPN list will play out.

Yea I feel you. I think I'd actually swap Durant and Kobe.. and Rose for Williams now that I think about it. So I'd have a list of....

1. Dwight
2. Lebron
3. Wade
4. CP3
5. Dirk
6. Durant
7. Kobe
8. Rose
9. D Will
10. Griffin

[EricForman]

The MVP award officially became a joke when Steve Nash won it not once, but TWICE. After that, you can't really take it seriously anymore.

That being said, Rose did deserve it, so.......


Also, I would be SHOCKED if Lebron is anything less than #1.

That "Nash stole MVPs" comment is so 2006. It doesn't really fly considering he's since led TWO MORE teams to the WCF, kept up his 2005/2006 level play for another 5 years and is now widely considered as the GREATEST SHOOTER EVER.

[Clippersfan86]

If they're putting Kobe and CP3 ahead of Rose, they're absolutely taking past success into account, at least to an extent. If this is about players now and what they could in the future, there's no reason the top 5 wouldn't be something like Lebron-Howard-Durant-Rose-Griffin.

I don't think they are taking past success into account. They are putting Kobe and CP3 ahead of Rose because they are better all around players to this point. CP3 no question is the better all around PG than Rose and in the playoffs everyone was reminded of just how good a healthy CP3 is. Kobe vs Rose is debatable but Kobe is a more complete player and even now in his decline is a 25, 5 and 5 player. Better than Rose.

It's not a list about future rank. It's a list about the current top individual talents and skill sets. At least that's what I think they are doing...

[greensborohill]

update for Kobe #7 - 9.40

[DirtySanchez]

1. Dirk
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. Dwight
5. Kobe

My top 5

[guy]

I don't think they are taking past success into account. They are putting Kobe and CP3 ahead of Rose because they are better all around players to this point. CP3 no question is the better all around PG than Rose and in the playoffs everyone was reminded of just how good a healthy CP3 is. Kobe vs Rose is debatable but Kobe is a more complete player and even now in his decline is a 25, 5 and 5 player. Better than Rose.

It's not a list about future rank. It's a list about the current top individual talents and skill sets. At least that's what I think they are doing...

Like I said, at there best they are better then Rose. But due to injuries/age, they are not nearly as dependable. It doesn't make sense to me if they aren't taking past success into account since Rose clearly had a better season then both of them and is only going to get better while both Kobe and CP3 are on the decline. And CP3's playoffs was only 6 games. It doesn't make up for the fact that Rose during the regular season completely blew him out the water.

[bagelred]

That "Nash stole MVPs" comment is so 2006. It doesn't really fly considering he's since led TWO MORE teams to the WCF, kept up his 2005/2006 level play for another 5 years and is now widely considered as the GREATEST SHOOTER EVER.

He simply wasn't the MVP those two years. Doesn't matter what he did afterwards.

Not a logical thinker, eh?

[NewYorkNoPicks]

Blake Griffin over guys like Melo, Gasol, Amare, and ZBo is a joke. I'm sure it won't be long before he does surpass those guys, but he hasn't done enough yet to warrant that. I personally think Melo and Amare should be #9 and #10 even over Deron but of the players remaining, Deron is in the right place.


THIS!!! :applause:

[pauk]

it will be:

1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Wade
4. Dirk
5. Durant
6. CP3

[brisbaneman]

I am happy espn put durant out of the top 5 but i'd personally have him in the 10-16 range.

[DMAVS41]

outside of Wade/Lebron/Bosh the team sucks. That is the main reason they lost.

The Mavs role players stepped up when it matter the most. We saw what happened in game 6 when Dirk was missing every shot, (1-12 in the first half i believe) but luckily for him Jason Terry, Tyson Chandler stellar defensive post presences, JJ Barrea the Mavs were winning.

And Rick Carlisle did a wonderful job making Lebron James passive.

No...the main reason the heat lost was because Lebron was ****ing awful. That combined with Bosh proving how over-rated he is.

LOL at blaming the role players when your superstar is horrendous on both ends and even worse in crunch time.

[OmniStrife]

it will be:

1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Wade
4. Dirk
5. Durant
6. CP3
I take this ranking too.
They might put Dirk over Wade though.

[drainthe3]

should be

1.lebron
2.dwight
3.wade
4.dirk
5.cp3


pretty much

[NuggetsFan]

Explain to me why Melo, Gasol, Zbo and Amare should be unquestioned picks above Blake when ranking INDIVIDUAL players/talent? You apparently are getting hung up on the fact that a rookie didn't lead his team to the playoffs (even the great ones don't do it too often). The ONLY player I think has a strong case to be over Blake out of the ones you listed is Amare. Why? Because he has slightly better all around stats AND made the playoffs.


- Melo. Not a huge difference in passing regardless of what numbers say. Waaaaay more clutch. Not as bad defensively. Proven player that can lead you to the post season. Not as good of a rebounder but above average for his position.

- Gasol. More polished offensively and IMO has improved with L.A. Throw him back on the Grizzlies that missed the playoffs and he'd be scoring more than Griffin. Better defensively. Blake averages more assists probably .. but doesn't have a huge edge there. Blake's a better rebounder.

- Amare. Better scorer. Better defensively. Worse at rebounding and getting others involved. He edge scoring the ball outweights Blake's rebounding for me. If Blake patrolled the paint and was more defensively sound than I could see a case I guess.

- Randolph. Neither stands out from one another offensively. Same with rebounding. Personally think Blake is the worst defensively of the group but w.e.

Than throw in that every single of these players are PROVEN in the playoffs. Randolph was huge against the Spurs. Melo's made the WCF. Gasol has won a ring, Amare has tore teams up. Not to mention Melo\Amare\Gasol have been focal points of there offense while reaching success. Something Griffin has lacked to due. It matters. Doesn't matter when talking about the FUTURE but when talking about right now? How can say it doesn't matter. All you have is athletic ability and statistics and even than pretty sure guy's like Randolph had just as many rebounds per game. Guy's like Melo scored more etc.

I don't care if Griffin averaged 22 points compared to Gasol's 19. Gasol is faaaaaaaar more polished offensively and scored in the flow of the game while winning basketball games.


Melo and Amare both had less impact on the Knicks than Griffin did on the Clippers. Not to mention Zbo and Gasol are both worse in every way than Griffin pretty much. Gasol is a better defender, that's it. Griffin has them beat in passing, rebounding, scoring. I don't understand why people can't handle him being the 10th best player with the whole "It's too soon". Reminds me of rookie Jordan getting frozen out at the all star game. Those players also thought he was just a dunker, flashy player who was getting praise too early.

Based on what?. Your in love with statistics. Kevin Love. Explain me why he doesn't get the same treatment from you. Don't give me the whole Minny lost way more games either because clearly that doesn't matter. If you don't use it against Blake, can't use it for Love. The difference between a 15-20 win team and a 32 win team is the same as a 50+ win team and a 32 win team.

Kevin Love should crack the top 12 in the your eyes. Out rebounded Blake. Minny was also tops in the league in rebounding. Clippers were like what? 7-15 range I'd guess.


Greatness can't be denied. Before Eric Gordon went down with injury (allowing teams to triple team Blake a lot last couple months of season) Blake actually pushed his stats up to 23, 13 and 3.7 apg. Those are MVP level stats as a rookie. If the Clippers stayed healthy and made playoffs he would of had a legit shot at MVP despite being a rookie. Blake averaged 26 ppg, 14 rpg and 5 apg for a 2 month stretch.

I watched quite a few Clipper games. Triple teams? Pleaaaaaaaaaaase. I would love you to show me 5-10 games on the season where Blake was consistently triple teamed. I never saw it once and never heard one person mention it before besides you. I'm talking about more than a handful of plays here and there where a few guy's collapsed on a broken play.


We saw how much he improved month to month most of last season. Imagine how improved he will be coming out of this summer? He didn't have to spend whole time rehabbing, and got to do a lot of skill and conditioning work.

He also got to sit for a year and get a first hand look at the NBA. Next year he could come out and keep his exact numbers while Eric Gordon explodes as well as guy's like Jordan\Bledsoe\Williams\Kaman all stepping up a little bit. Clippers could improve into a playoff team. Individual success\statistics usually dip when talent around you get's better and your team starts achieving success. Not many players had there best numbers while they were winning championships.

[Clippersfan86]

Nuggets you have a massively flawed logic on stats. Blake's best month of the season where he put up 26 ppg was when Eric Gordon was putting up 24 ppg and we were at nearly full strength. So explain why Griffin's stats were lower when Eric went down? I know the answer but do you? You're implying as the team improves his numbers will go down but that's not true. Him getting single coverage is what made his scoring rocket. Teams couldn't afford to double him so much.

Obviously when I say triple team I don't literally mean 3 defenders chasing him. Besides Dwight Howard he's the only guy in the league where when he's in the paint entire defenses collapse on him. If you saw him as much as you say you'd see the difference in the way defenses play him vs lets say love. Pop and Gentry among others said they gameplan and center defense around Blake. Love doesn't get that same level of respect.

As for the difference between the 2 I already told you. Griffin impacts games more. He draws constant double teams. He's more impactful on defense, passes better and scores more. All of this while having way more capable teammates. Love's only edges are shooting efficency and rebounding. Put Love next to DeAndre and Kaman and he gets around what Blake got.

[NuggetsFan]

Nuggets you have a massively flawed logic on stats. Blake's best month of the season where he put up 26 ppg was when Eric Gordon was putting up 24 ppg and we were at nearly full strength. So explain why Griffin's stats were lower when Eric went down? I know the answer but do you? You're implying as the team improves his numbers will go down but that's not true. Him getting single coverage is what made his scoring rocket. Teams couldn't afford to double him so much.

Obviously when I say triple team I don't literally mean 3 defenders chasing him. Besides Dwight Howard he's the only guy in the league where when he's in the paint entire defenses collapse on him. If you saw him as much as you say you'd see the difference in the way defenses play him vs lets say love. Pop and Gentry among others said they gameplan and center defense around Blake. Love doesn't get that same level of respect.

As for the difference between the 2 I already told you. Griffin impacts games more. He draws constant double teams. He's more impactful on defense, passes better and scores more. All of this while having way more capable teammates. Love's only edges are shooting efficency and rebounding. Put Love next to DeAndre and Kaman and he gets around what Blake got.

Your using two players to say my logic is flawed. It's a FACT alot of players statistically have there best years when there relied on the most and looked at to carry teams. Guy's don't average 35 points a game when they win championships. I'd bet 100 bucks that when the Clippers reach there peak success, it won't be the Blake's best statistical year. It'll be with Blake playing great ball, doing the little stuff while being surrounded with good players all stepping up as well. Just look at this year. Individual statistics and success don't go hand and hand. It's the team as a whole .. and usually the more talented the team the less relient they are on one player for 82 games. Probably won't happen next year with Blake, but when the Clippers do contend? IF they ever do I gaurantee Blake wont be putting up 30\14\5 like some of your predictions. As the Clippers continue to grow, if they do anyways they won't rely as much on Blake. Just like when the T-Wolves end up winning? Probably won't be needed K.Love to score 20 points a game.

Look at Wade\LeBron. They probably saw less defensive attention this year than in there careers. Yet there numbers took a slight hit and that's with no depth around them.

So wait a second? NOW you want to use things besides numbers. Originally you only wanted to use "talent" "statistics" and so forth. When you compare Kevin Love vs Blake .. you use intangibles and different situations. Why don't you do that when it's Blake vs Melo\Gasol\Amare? Why don't you take into account things like stepping up in the playoffs?. You don't think Gasol wouldn't have scored more points if he played for the Clippers instead of the Lakers?. You don't think Carmelo playing for the Clippers doesn't hit 30 points? He's been putting up 25+ on playoff teams where had to share the rock. Blake averaged 3 less shots than Melo did. You don't think he doesn't see a 2-3 shot increase with L.A?

It's all what if's in the end so it doesn't matter. Just find it funny when it's Love vs Blake it's not about the numbers. When it's Blake vs everyone else it is. Carmelo averaged 27\5\4 on route to the WCF a few years back and is in the prime of his career. Your telling mean that means nothing when comparing players CURRENTLY. It's why Dirk is so high on people's list. With Blake? It's about the future. No sane person is taking Blake at number 10 .. last season if there trying to win a championship. Period.

[spacebump]

should be

1.lebron
2.dwight
3.wade
4.dirk
5.cp3


pretty much

should be

1.dirk
2.dwight
3.CP3 (woo)
4. lebron
5. wade

[wally_world]

6. CP3
5. Durant
4. Wade
3. Dwight
2. LeBron
1. Dirk

Might flip Durant/Wade but didnt do so because i feel i'll be doing it because im a Durant fan.

[Tha Catalyst]

In basketball, 5 players from each team can be on the court at one time, right?

Football you get 11, Baseball 9, but in basketball you get 5?

And in crunch time, you're saying that in your mind, the Heat had the #1, #2, and #24 guys in the entire NBA playing as 3 of their 5? But yet they got beat by a team with (in your mind) #3, two other guys that are low in the top 50, and two other guys that are in the 70's (I think). But you justify them being #1 & #2 b/c Dallas had a better bench? But only 5 guys can play at a time?

Sure, makes sense to me.

At some point people need to stop looking at empty azz sh!tty azz stats and look at a players impact on the game. If #1 & #2 couldn't finish off #3, then #3 isn't #3. . . he's #1.
No, Dwight Howard is #1, he may as well have been surrounded by D-leaguers against the Hawks. It is beyond me how anybody thinks a player impacts a game of basketball more than Howard, even with his awkward offensive game. Dirk has a case for being better than Wade, a small one, but he isn't better than Lebron, he just played better in one series.

[pauk]

6. CP3
5. Durant
4. Wade
3. Dwight
2. LeBron
1. Dirk

Might flip Durant/Wade but didnt do so because i feel i'll be doing it because im a Durant fan.

Durant is at #6

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7113666/nba-player-rankings-6

only 5 players now... cp3, wade, dwight, dirk and lebron...

[D-Wade316]

1. Lebron
2. Wade
3. Dwight
4. CP3
5. Dirk
6. Durant

[RRR3]

No...the main reason the heat lost was because Lebron was ****ing awful. That combined with Bosh proving how over-rated he is.

LOL at blaming the role players when your superstar is horrendous on both ends and even worse in crunch time.
Wait....so if LeBron does bad he just "choked", but if Bosh does bad, he's "overrated"? Kind of unfair to ol' Bosh, don't you think? :confusedshrug:

[D-Wade316]

Durant is at #6

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7113666/nba-player-rankings-6

only 5 players now... cp3, wade, dwight, dirk and lebron...
It's good to hear that ESPN is not underrating CP3. :applause:

[pauk]

i think Lebron will be #1 based on =


1. Lebron was the most productive player in the season and more productive than Wade and much more productive than especially Dirk.. Dwight was the 2nd most productive player....... Lebron had #1 MVP votes out of this bunch... Lebron & Dwight had 500++ MVP votes total..... Wade had 24 MVP votes and Dirk had 100.....
Lebron went to a team and was the biggest reason to their first success and playoffs series wins and finals since 2006..........
meanwhile...
Lebron went FROM a team who was #1..... and they immediately became the WORST TEAM....

2. Lebron & Dwight were in the 1st All-NBA team AND 1st All-Defensive team this year..... Wade was not and Dirk was not either...

3. In the playoffs Lebron & Dirk were the best players, Wade aswell was very productive, but so much goes for stats... BECAUSE LEBRON & DIRK WERE THE PLAYERS WHO CLOSED THE GAMES/SERIES OUT THE BEST, THEY SCORED WHEN IT MATTERED THE BEST.... Lebron was AMAZING up until Game 2 of the Finals... he was horrible in 3 of those Finals games... Dirk still played great and won a Championship.... those 3 games wont change the entire year... just like it didnt change him being the best last year or the year before that by losing in the playoffs..... Wade was not bad either in the playoffs, but he didnt manage to close out as many games/series as Dirk & Lebron... and he certainly was more productive than Lebron in the Finals, but didnt manage to will out wins in the Clutch himself...


#1 will be Lebron... i would be shocked to see anybody else there because of the above...


#2 is the very hard part.... im guessing Dwight... but Dirk could take this to based on the playoffs.... or Wade...


CP3.... he will be last of these 5 players... i can guarantee that

[D-Wade316]

LOL @ LeQUITTTER being one of the best playoff performers last PS.

RS:
Lebron - 27.34 PER (This is your favorite advanced stat)
Wade - 25.65
Difference - 1.69

PS:
Wade - 26.42 (2nd overall)
Lebron - 23.78 (6th overall)
Difference - 2.64

Wade increased his PER in the PS, while Lebron did the opposite.

[RRR3]

LOL @ LeQUITTTER being one of the best playoff performers last PS.

RS:
Lebron - 27.34 PER (This is your favorite advanced stat)
Wade - 25.65
Difference - 1.69

PS:
Wade - 26.42 (2nd overall)
Lebron - 23.78 (6th overall)
Difference - 2.64

Wade increased his PER in the PS, while Lebron did the opposite.
I thought you liked LeBron? :confusedshrug: Don't turn into doctor rivers. *Mark Jackson voice* You're better than that.

[Doctor Rivers]

I thought you liked LeBron? :confusedshrug: Don't turn into doctor rivers. *Mark Jackson voice* You're better than that.

dude wth.

is it his fault that he realizes who the better clutch performer is?

[D-Wade316]

I thought you liked LeBron? :confusedshrug: Don't turn into doctor rivers. *Mark Jackson voice* You're better than that.
I like/love Lebron. pauk often makes occasional delusional statements. That's why he needs to brought back down to earth sometimes.

[Doctor Rivers]

LOL @ LeQUITTTER being one of the best playoff performers last PS.

RS:
Lebron - 27.34 PER (This is your favorite advanced stat)
Wade - 25.65
Difference - 1.69

PS:
Wade - 26.42 (2nd overall)
Lebron - 23.78 (6th overall)
Difference - 2.64

Wade increased his PER in the PS, while Lebron did the opposite.

+1
repped

:cheers:

[Doctor Rivers]

I like/love Lebron. pauk often makes occasional delusional statements. That's why he needs to brought back down to earth sometimes.

understatement of the century

[RRR3]

dude wth.

is it his fault that he realizes who the better clutch performer is?
Get lost. All you do is talk about Wade. It gets really, really, REALLY old. You're as bad as the Kobe trolls and you make Wade look worse. :facepalm

[pauk]

LOL @ LeQUITTTER being one of the best playoff performers last PS.

RS:
Lebron - 27.34 PER (This is your favorite advanced stat)
Wade - 25.65
Difference - 1.69

PS:
Wade - 26.42 (2nd overall)
Lebron - 23.78 (6th overall)
Difference - 2.64

Wade increased his PER in the PS, while Lebron did the opposite.


i told you.... so much goes for PER/STATS when Dirk & Lebron were the ones who CLOSED the games & series out the best..........

Lebron was leading in PER (amongst the active players) just before the Finals.... he had 3 horrible games which dropped his averages down dramatically.....

but just like i said, STATS doesnt matter at all if you cant CLOSE THE GAMES/SERIES OUT.............. which neither Lebron nor Wade was able to do in the Finals..............

even if you go by stats... look at Wades PER/STATS in Bulls series which was the "reason" to them being in the Finals first of all..........

if it wasnt for Lebron going insane in the Bulls series... Wade would not be in the Finals...

i dont know when u became a Lebron hater all of the sudden... but ok...

[pauk]

anyways... my point is...


If these voters are gona look at what happened the entire year, they will go after Lebron at #1...

Some of these voters will look ONLY at the outcome of that year i guess (who won the championship)... so Dirk will most definitely get up... not even surprised if he would end up #2.......

[pauk]

I like/love Lebron. pauk often makes occasional delusional statements. That's why he needs to brought back down to earth sometimes.

And which delusional statements are those.... tell me? Go...



Stop lying to yourself... you are just angry because i didnt overrate Wade and said he was a clear case #2... admit it....

only YOU are delusional if you think Wade beats out Dirk & Dwight by a miiiiiiiiiiiiiiile for the #2 spot... better yet beats out Lebron for the #1 spot...


thats the only reason you all of the sudden turned your back against me.... because i dont say what you want to hear!

and what do you want to hear? WADE IS TEH BEZZZTTTTT

[Doctor Rivers]

Get lost. All you do is talk about Wade. It gets really, really, REALLY old. You're as bad as the Kobe trolls and you make Wade look worse. :facepalm

lol get lost?

i don't post about wade NEARLY as much as pauk posts about lebronzy

gtfo troll

[pauk]

Get lost. All you do is talk about Wade. It gets really, really, REALLY old. You're as bad as the Kobe trolls and you make Wade look worse. :facepalm

i dont think he is a real Wade/Heat fan..... it doesnt make sense...

he is a Kobetard... that now simply roots for Wade (or anybody else) to be over Lebron (and it NEVER happens and will NEVER happen, well not until Lebron declines a la Kobe in the 33's mid 30s somewhere)..... just like a true Kobetard would have done... just REFUSING to accept Lebron as the best...

after all these years.... you have to get used to Lebron being the best Doctor Rivers... you have to... or else you will just look like a fool... like a kobetard who only denies...

[pauk]

D-Wade316...

i also clearly stated:

"Up until the Finals... Lebron was the most productive amongst the active players in the Playoffs"

even in PER/EFF....

i dont care about that anyways.. even if he wasnt leading PER/EFF up until the Finals.... Lebron & Dirk were the best because they were the best gameclosers/clutch players..... especially in Bulls series where he did it on both ends of the floor every single game..... every series up until the Finals Lebron was nailing spikes on the opposing teams coffins and shipped them away....

Wade wasnt doing so great there.... in that series Lebron was absolutely amazing... just because of that series at the end Pippen thought it was safe to say:

"Lebron is the greatest player ever"

i dont agree... but Lebron was THAT good in the ECF.... Wade was horrible that series aswell, worse than what Lebron was in the Finals actually.... so that play is what got them to the Finals literally.....

[Doctor Rivers]

LeBron was the greatest player ever during the ECF.

[DMAVS41]

Wait....so if LeBron does bad he just "choked", but if Bosh does bad, he's "overrated"? Kind of unfair to ol' Bosh, don't you think? :confusedshrug:

that is fine if you want to say lebron is over-rated. i was just speaking more out of personal opinion. i don't think bosh is anywhere close to the player people thought he was coming into this year.

i'm satisfied after watching him play in meaningful games that he's around a top 25 player...not a top 10 player like most claimed coming into the year.

for lebron? its hard to over-rate him because most consider him somewhere in the top 4....and he's definitely a top 4 player. so unless someone is claiming he's by far the best in the league or something...its hard to over-rate him.

[pauk]

we (or me) have discussed this to no end...

im just gona finish it of like this:

1. If you are looking for who was the best player overall last year, it was LEBRON...

2. If you are looking for who was the best player in the season, it was LEBRON...

3. If you are looking for who was the best player overall in the playoffs + outcome (championship)... it was DIRK....


i think most here will agree with this


Lebron should be #1... and i wouldnt be shocked if Dirk ends up #2...... above Wade & Dwight........... but you are crazy if you think he has done enough to surpass Lebron just like that... you have to remember Dirk was ranked between #5-#10 just before we went in to the playoffs.............. he was so great in the playoffs and won a championship so i think he deserves a higher spot.... and he will get that.... but #1? NO...

[DMAVS41]

we (or me) have discussed this to no end...

im just gona finish it of like this:

1. If you are looking for who was the best player overall last year, it was LEBRON...

2. If you are looking for who was the best player in the season, it was LEBRON...

3. If you are looking for who was the best player overall in the playoffs + outcome (championship)... it was DIRK....


i think most here will agree with this

the regular season just doesn't matter as much to me as it does to you...and even then, i thought both howard and dirk were about as good as Lebron.

and what happened in the finals matters a lot more to me than you as well. it drops lebron behind dirk, howard, and wade for me overall last year.

i don't really care all that much that lebron is able to put up good numbers in the regular season and help lead a loaded roster to 58 wins or whatever. its good...but just doesn't matter all that much to me.

what Lebron did to get to the finals matters a lot to me. extremely impressive. played both ends like a beast. came through when it mattered most. then the finals happened. about as bad as a superstar can play. passive, horrible defense, and horrible late game play. ugly as it gets. and that is why i just can't think of him as a better player than the three guys i mentioned above.

still an elite player....still the player that should be the best in the league. but "should" isn't reality....he has to do it. hopefully he does it next year.

[pauk]

the regular season just doesn't matter as much to me as it does to you...

ofcourse... :rolleyes:



and even then, i thought both howard and dirk were about as good as Lebron.

in the season? NO... dirk was not even close... Dwight? Much closer...

Dwight & Lebron got 500++ MVP votes... Dwight won the DPOY...

Lebron & Dwight were 1st All-NBA and 1st All-Defensive teams.... Dirk was not...

Lebron was the biggest reason to Heats major success which they didnt have since 2006...

and if this matters to you also but Lebron left a #1 team who immediately became the worst team in the NBA...



and what happened in the finals matters a lot more to me than you as well. it drops lebron behind dirk, howard, and wade for me overall last year.

No... the outcome wont matter just like the outcome didnt matter for Lebron these past 2 years..... Kobe won a championship and got ranked just as high as Lebron because Kobe was always a top 2 player even before a championship.... But Dirk? He was ranked between #5-#10 just before we went into the playoffs... remember? Dirks ranking will get boosted now.. he deserves it... but #1? ouch...


Lebron was actually the best player in the playoffs up until Game 2 of the Finals.... look it up very carefully and you will see... Dirk was just behind him tho alongside Wade.... those 3 games Lebron had in the finals were terrible, but it wont change his place no matter how hard you want it to... just before those Finals Pippen thought it was safe to go:

"Lebron is the greatest player ever"... he was THAT good just before the Finals... nobody throwed out such comments about Dirk... ever..

Are you seriously gona throw out the best player in the game just because he didnt manage to win a championship or because he played bad in 3 games in the Finals? Are you gona forget all the rest of the year?

YOU may be thinking so.... but MAJORITY aint like you.... so you just know..

as evidenced of these past 2 years... Lebron was the best player in the game, not by only my words... but the MAJORITY of everyone.... no matter of his outcome in the playoffs these past 2 years... Lebron remained #1... just like he will now to... sorry... he is just the best player...

you dont need a TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENT to prove to people you are the best.... it helps somewhat... but when you are a player of Lebrons MAGNITUDE... you dont have to...

a TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENT will only matter for Lebron when his career is done.... it will more work like the Icing on top of the cake...


i don't really care all that much that lebron is able to put up good numbers in the regular season and help lead a 2 and a half men roster to 58 wins or whatever and its first playoff series wins and finals since 2006. its good...but just doesn't matter all that much to me.

fixed



what Lebron did to get to the finals matters a lot to me. extremely impressive. played both ends like a beast. came through when it mattered most. then the finals happened. about as bad as a superstar can play. passive, horrible defense, and horrible late game play. ugly as it gets. and that is why i just can't think of him as a better player than the three guys i mentioned above.

Really... ? Because of those 3 bad games? :oldlol:


still an elite player....still the player that should be the best in the league. but "should" isn't reality....he has to do it. hopefully he does it next year.

"should"? has to do it? what do you mean.. ? as in get a TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENT?

with your logic:

Chauncey Billups was the best a couple of years ago
Tony Parker / Tim Duncan were the best a couple of years ago
Paul Pierce was the best a couple of years ago...
then Kobe/Gasol were the best some years ago.. (more logical since Kobe was the best player alongside Lebron even before one of those championships)
and now......... DIRK is the best all of the sudden...

just stop it..... stop..

[JordanTime]

that is fine if you want to say lebron is over-rated. i was just speaking more out of personal opinion. i don't think bosh is anywhere close to the player people thought he was coming into this year.

i'm satisfied after watching him play in meaningful games that he's around a top 25 player...not a top 10 player like most claimed coming into the year.

for lebron? its hard to over-rate him because most consider him somewhere in the top 4....and he's definitely a top 4 player. so unless someone is claiming he's by far the best in the league or something...its hard to over-rate him.

Top 4?

No one in the league is better than Lebron James last season.

[Jan95]

ofcourse... :rolleyes:



in the season? NO... dirk was not even close... Dwight? Much closer...

Dwight & Lebron got 500++ MVP votes... Dwight won the DPOY...

Lebron & Dwight were 1st All-NBA and 1st All-Defensive teams.... Dirk was not...

Lebron was the biggest reason to Heats major success which they didnt have since 2006...

and if this matters to you also but Lebron left a #1 team who immediately became the worst team in the NBA...



No... the outcome wont matter just like the outcome didnt matter for Lebron these past 2 years..... Kobe won a championship and got ranked just as high as Lebron because Kobe was always a top 2 player even before a championship.... But Dirk? He was ranked between #5-#10 just before we went into the playoffs... remember?


Lebron was actually the best player in the playoffs up until Game 2 of the Finals.... look it up very carefully and you will see... Dirk was just behind him tho alongside Wade.... those 3 games Lebron had in the finals were terrible, but it wont change his place no matter how hard you want it to... just before those Finals Pippen thought it was safe to go:

"Lebron is the greatest player ever"... he was THAT good just before the Finals... nobody throwed out such comments about Dirk... ever..

Are you seriously gona throw out the best player in the game just because he didnt manage to win a championship or because he played bad in 3 games in the Finals? Are you gona forget all the rest of the year?

YOU may be thinking so.... but MAJORITY aint like you.... so you just know..

as evidenced of these past 2 years... Lebron was the best player in the game, not by only my words... but the MAJORITY of everyone.... no matter of his outcome in the playoffs... Lebron will remain #1... sorry...



fixed



Really... ? Because of those 3 bad games? :oldlol:



"should"? what do you mean.. ? as in get a TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENT?

with your logic:

Chauncey Billups was the best a couple of years ago
Tony Parker / Tim Duncan were the best a couple of years ago
Paul Pierce was the best a couple of years ago...
then Kobe/Gasol were the best some years ago..
and now......... DIRK is the best all of the sudden...

just stop it..... stop..
Finals are most important games, there only win matters, in the regular season you lose a game... so what? there 81 more games.
Its a team accomplishment, but there were not many teams that won without a superstar player. In the last 20 years, there was just 1 team that won without any true superstar player... Detroit Pistons in 2004... hell, there were only 3 teams, that won without player who is considered a top 10 ever. Dallas, Detroit and Boston. So, if Lebron cant win, there is only 1 reason then.... he just isn`t that good.

[InfiniteBaskets]

I'm guessing 5 is Chris Paul and 4 will be a toss up between Dwight and Wade. If Dirk is going to get a nice healthy rating boost due to winning the chip even though all of his teammates played awesome, I can see Dwight getting dinged for losing in the first round even though his teammates were really more at fault.

My guess is:
1. LeBron
2. Dirk
3. Wade
4. Dwight
5. CP3

[Jameerthefear]

They just put Dirk at #5 :eek: :eek: wtf

[Miller for 3]

Wow ESPN rankings are awful. Dirk was pretty clearly a top 3 player at worst. The postseason should be what the rankings of truly great players are based, but it looks like ESPN was too busy jerking off to Blake getting a dunk in a 50 point blowout or Lebron statpadding in a November game to notice.

tbh regular season games are pretty meaningless. Postseason > >>>>>>>>>>>> Regular season, and Lebron was only the 6th best player in the postseason.

[thejumpa]

Top 3 gonna look like

1. Dwight Howard
2. LeBron
3. Wade

4 will be CP3.....who IMHO is living off of what he did 2 years ago and not what he's done since. Even though he just beasted and won a title, I can't seem to put Dirk into the top 3. No way they have LBJ #1...I don't see them doing that.

[Clippersfan86]

They just put Dirk at #5 :eek: :eek: wtf

Just like I had him on my list. How is Dirk better than Lebron, Dwight, Wade and CP3? Because he just won a ring? He's individually not on their level.

[greensborohill]

So let me get this straight. . . Dirk #5 but beat a team with two top 4 guys. . . yeah, that sounds as azzbackwards as it really is. . . .

[greensborohill]

Just like I had him on my list. How is Dirk better than Lebron, Dwight, Wade and CP3? Because he just won a ring? He's individually not on their level.


How do you explain the azz thrashing he gave Wade & James?

And don't give me that "better team" BS. . . only five guys play at a time and out of their five the Heat have Wade, James, Bosh. Also, Dallas was 2-7 w/o Dirk this year. . . so, so much for your team arguement.

[greensborohill]

All but one says too low. . . props to them


Henry Abbott, ESPN.com: I'd have said too high another time, but this year just right. In addition to an essentially perfect title run, he deserves Nobel consideration for being the epicenter of a team that celebrated each other's successes despite volatile personalities at nearly every position, from owner to point guard.

J.A. Adande, ESPN.com: Too low. When last we heard from the NBA, Dirk beat Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, LeBron James and Dwyane Wade in the playoffs. And he did it without another All-Star by his side. He might be even better now with the confidence boost players get once they grab the trophy,

Mark Haubner, TrueHoop Network: Too low. I'd have Dirk at 4 after the charmed 2011 playoff run. Nowitzki illustrates how particularly challenging these rankings are at present. He's unquestionably the reigning king of basketball, but I can't say that I'd call him "the best." Still, it's a wonder he's this high at 33. With his unprecedented combo of size and shotmaking, Dirk's game has aged beautifully.

John Hollinger, ESPN.com: Too low. The hairs we're splitting among spots 4-8 are pretty thin ones. Look at their recent bodies of work, and it's hard to choose ... except that only one of the five crushed all comers in the playoffs this past season. Advantage, Dirk.

Marc Stein, ESPN.com: Too low. Way too low. This is a joke, right? After everything we just saw from Nowitzki in the playoffs, powering a one-star construction to the title Hakeem Olajuwon-style with the most unstoppable single shot (that inimitable one-legged J) since Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's skyhook, we're ranking him fifth? Maybe this is the only season we can ever say so, but Dirk deserves to start it -- if it ever starts -- at the very top.

[greensborohill]

LeBron can have his rankings. . . . .

http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/20110621-115957042.jpg.ece/BINARY/w620x413/115957042.jpg

[Miller for 3]

Just like I had him on my list. How is Dirk better than Lebron, Dwight, Wade and CP3? Because he just won a ring? He's individually not on their level.

Basketball is a team sport. Dirk opens up the floor for everyone on the Mavericks by drawing a big man out 15+ feet away from the basket. the FG% of every Maverick player with and without Dirk on the floor backs this up. Heat could have made the Finals without Wade or Lebron. Mavs would have been going for a lottery pick without Dirk (2-7 without him). He also is the best off the ball player of anyone in the top 20, a skill that is vital for a winning basketball team. And in the clutch, no one can create their own shot easier than Dirk, a skill that basically propelled the Mavs to several huge victories this postseason

[Clippersfan86]

How do you explain the azz thrashing he gave Wade & James?

And don't give me that "better team" BS. . . only five guys play at a time and out of their five the Heat have Wade, James, Bosh. Also, Dallas was 2-7 w/o Dirk this year. . . so, so much for your team arguement.

Dallas won as a team. Sure Dirk was the leader of an epic playoff run. You Mavs fans can't keep crediting Dirk as if he carried the team. You had a really good, deep team and everyone stepped up ALONG WITH Dirk's heroic games.

It's like when Paul Pierce won finals MVP in 08 and in an interview said he's the best player in the game. We know damn well in 08 Pierce was nowhere near the best player. Same with Dirk now. Yes he had an excellent finals/playoffs but he's NOWHERE near the best individual player.

[Clippersfan86]

Basketball is a team sport. Dirk opens up the floor for everyone on the Mavericks by drawing a big man out 15+ feet away from the basket. the FG% of every Maverick player with and without Dirk on the floor backs this up. Heat could have made the Finals without Wade or Lebron. Mavs would have been going for a lottery pick without Dirk (2-7 without him). He also is the best off the ball player of anyone in the top 20, a skill that is vital for a winning basketball team. And in the clutch, no one can create their own shot easier than Dirk, a skill that basically propelled the Mavs to several huge victories this postseason

Thanks for adding to my point. Basketball is a team sport and this ranking is about INDIVIDUAL talent/skill. Dirk is NOT a top 3 player and top 5 is pushing it. If you had to choose between taking Kobe, Durant and Dirk for your team you really wanna tell me you'd take Dirk? The only reason ANYBODY would say yes is because Dirk just dominated in the playoffs.

[HiphopRelated]

i told you.... so much goes for PER/STATS when Dirk & Lebron were the ones who CLOSED the games & series out the best..........

Lebron was leading in PER (amongst the active players) just before the Finals.... he had 3 horrible games which dropped his averages down dramatically.....

but just like i said, STATS doesnt matter at all if you cant CLOSE THE GAMES/SERIES OUT.............. which neither Lebron nor Wade was able to do in the Finals..............

even if you go by stats... look at Wades PER/STATS in Bulls series which was the "reason" to them being in the Finals first of all..........

if it wasnt for Lebron going insane in the Bulls series... Wade would not be in the Finals...

i dont know when u became a Lebron hater all of the sudden... but ok...
and if Wade didn't go insane vs Boston they wouldn't be in the ECFs...that's an all day argument

[Miller for 3]

Thanks for adding to my point. Basketball is a team sport and this ranking is about INDIVIDUAL talent/skill. Dirk is NOT a top 3 player and top 5 is pushing it. If you had to choose between taking Kobe, Durant and Dirk for your team you really wanna tell me you'd take Dirk? The only reason ANYBODY would say yes is because Dirk just dominated in the playoffs.

For one year and i get 10-11 Dirk? Yes I would take 10-11 Dirk over 10-11 Kobe and 10-11 Durant. Durant's game isn't advanced enough for me to put him over Dirk. Playoffs is all that matters. Dirk doesn't play 48 minutes in a 35 point blowout like Lebrick to pad stats. He shows up when it matters, and takes it easy when it doesn't.

[Clippersfan86]

For one year and i get 10-11 Dirk? Yes I would take 10-11 Dirk over 10-11 Kobe and 10-11 Durant. Durant's game isn't advanced enough for me to put him over Dirk. Playoffs is all that matters. Dirk doesn't play 48 minutes in a 35 point blowout like Lebrick to pad stats. He shows up when it matters, and takes it easy when it doesn't.

Dude it's not about 10-11. This is a ranking of the best players RIGHT NOW. They aren't going to judge on last year and if they do they are going to count the regular season. If you do that Dirk isn't top 5 at all until the playoffs. If I'm a GM and I'm offered Kobe, Durant, Dirk or CP3.... I choose Dirk last without even thinking about it. Sure he proved his clutch but that doesn't suddenly vault him over more proven and consistently good players.

[Yung D-Will]

Dallas won as a team. Sure Dirk was the leader of an epic playoff run. You Mavs fans can't keep crediting Dirk as if he carried the team. You had a really good, deep team and everyone stepped up ALONG WITH Dirk's heroic games.

It's like when Paul Pierce won finals MVP in 08 and in an interview said he's the best player in the game. We know damn well in 08 Pierce was nowhere near the best player. Same with Dirk now. Yes he had an excellent finals/playoffs but he's NOWHERE near the best individual player.

You can't compare when Paul Pierce won to when Dirk won. For one thing even after he won everyone knew he was no where near the best player because he wasn't even the best at his position or on his team (KG) whiles on the other hand Dirk has been the best power forward in the game for the past 3 years and you can EASILY make a case for him being a top 3 player( Which isn't the same as being nowhere near the best individual player) After Lebron/Wade for me it's basiclly anything goes.

[InfiniteBaskets]

I'm guessing 5 is Chris Paul and 4 will be a toss up between Dwight and Wade. If Dirk is going to get a nice healthy rating boost due to winning the chip even though all of his teammates played awesome, I can see Dwight getting dinged for losing in the first round even though his teammates were really more at fault.

My guess is:
1. LeBron
2. Dirk
3. Wade
4. Dwight
5. CP3


:(

[Miller for 3]

Dude it's not about 10-11. This is a ranking of the best players RIGHT NOW. They aren't going to judge on last year and if they do they are going to count the regular season. If you do that Dirk isn't top 5 at all until the playoffs. If I'm a GM and I'm offered Kobe, Durant, Dirk or CP3.... I choose Dirk last without even thinking about it. Sure he proved his clutch but that doesn't suddenly vault him over more proven and consistently good players.

Dirk was one of the top MVP candidates in the league last year. If Dirk had played all 82 games, there's a good chance the Mavs could have had the best record in the league. Heres a thread with what Bill Simmons had to say about Dirk as MVP

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217169

If these ranking aren't based on what JUST happened, then I give up. I guess we are ranking players based on 2002, or what is going to happen in 2020.

[OmniStrife]

How the hell is CP3 above Dirk is beyond me.

[Clippersfan86]

You can't compare when Paul Pierce won to when Dirk won. For one thing even after he won everyone knew he was no where near the best player because he wasn't even the best at his position or on his team (KG) whiles on the other hand Dirk has been the best power forward in the game for the past 3 years and you can EASILY make a case for him being a top 3 player( Which isn't the same as being nowhere near the best individual player) After Lebron/Wade for me it's basiclly anything goes.

I'm sorry dude but nobody in their right mind takes Dwight or CP3 after Dirk. PERIOD. Dirk literally had 0 chance to be higher than 5 and I ranked him at 5 on my list. As for him being the best PF the last 3 years... that's purely subjective. I think 09 Bosh with his 24 and 11 to go with 2.5 assists and a block was clearly better than Dirk. Then in 08 I think that KG was still the best PF with his 21 ppg, 10 rpg, 4 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.5 spg with elite defense. Guess who won defensive player of the year? KG. So for me that leaves just last year where you could say Dirk was the best PF.

[greensborohill]

Dallas won as a team. Sure Dirk was the leader of an epic playoff run. You Mavs fans can't keep crediting Dirk as if he carried the team. You had a really good, deep team and everyone stepped up ALONG WITH Dirk's heroic games.

It's like when Paul Pierce won finals MVP in 08 and in an interview said he's the best player in the game. We know damn well in 08 Pierce was nowhere near the best player. Same with Dirk now. Yes he had an excellent finals/playoffs but he's NOWHERE near the best individual player.

yeah, PP had Ray & KG.

Give it up 'bro, Dirk is the best player in basketball in terms of talent and in terms of team accomplishment. What the fvck did LBJ do to help win the Finals?

[Clippersfan86]

yeah, PP had Ray & KG.

Give it up 'bro, Dirk is the best player in basketball in terms of talent and in terms of team accomplishment. What the fvck did LBJ do to help win the Finals?

You clearly don't remember me cheering on the Mavs like I've never done for a non Clippers team. I love Dirk and love many players on the Mavs like Kidd, Marion and Chandler. I'm just saying winning a ring doesn't immediately make you a better INDIVIDUAL player. Dirk is the same player he's been for years, which was NEVER a top 3 player.

[catch24]

Worst. list. ever.

Dirk, after that amazing postseason run, is ONLY at #5? :roll:

[Clippersfan86]

Worst. list. ever.

Dirk, after that amazing postseason run, is ONLY at #5? :roll:

Yes because one epic postseason= where a player should rank as an individual. I'm surprised at how twisted the logic is on ISH. Let's say 5 years from now the Clippers won the championship and Blake Griffin was considered the 5th best player. You think it's realistic that all the sudden everyone automatically puts him 1st because of a ring? If this list was a "Recently accomplished" list... Dirk would be first but it's NOT.

[catch24]

Yes because one epic postseason= where a player should rank as an individual. I'm surprised at how twisted the logic is on ISH. Let's say 5 years from now the Clippers won the championship and Blake Griffin was considered the 5th best player. You think it's realistic that all the sudden everyone automatically puts him 1st because of a ring? If this list was a "Recently accomplished" list... Dirk would be first but it's NOT.

So one postseason where Kobe was ousted in the second round means he's out of the top 5?

[Clippersfan86]

So one postseason where Kobe was ousted in the second round means he's out of the top 5?

Um bro... this is a list of ranking individual talent. If you didn't see my list I even said I'd take Kobe, Durant over Dirk. I predicted Dirk at 5 because I knew they would have the playoff run in the back of their mind and not fairly rate him based on INDIVIDUAL talent/skill.

In terms of skill/talent (How ESPN is supposed to rank) though Kobe has declined enough to where if we ranked this based on skill/talent/production... it would be..

1. Howard
2. LBJ
3. Wade
4. CP3
5. Durant
6. Kobe
7. Rose
8. Dirk
9. D Will
10. Griffin/Gasol/Melo/Amare

How do I come to this conclusion? Because when I think about who is the absolute best player/talent and who I'd take for my team this is how they rank. Some of them are very close. For example I would consider CP3 over Wade, though most wouldn't.

[Legends66NBA7]

So one postseason where Kobe was ousted in the second round means he's out of the top 5?

I think they way heavily on that. I mean it's fact he's slowing down. And that performance in the playoffs did not help his case at all. I think you could make the case that he is Top 5, but age and injuries are against him.

It won't be easy for Kobe to keep up at an average of 25/5/5 as he gets older. Though, the case is still there.

[rodman91]

CP3 over Dirk?:facepalm

[Clippersfan86]

CP3 over Dirk?:facepalm

Would you take a 25 year old PG putting up 16 ppg, 10 apg, 4 rpg, 2.5 spg... with elite efficiency and great defense over a 33 year old PF putting up 23 ppg, 7 rpg, 2.5 apg on great efficiency and below average defense? There is your answer.

Don't bring up the playoffs either because Chris Paul is quite possibly the best playoff performing PG in NBA history right after Magic. Dirk literally has no edge over CP3. CP3 had 14 win shares this year which was like 3rd best, Dirk had 11 which is only 1 more than Blake Griffin. Then you look at offensive and defensive ratings and again CP3 crushes him easily.

So main stats+metrics+playoff performances+individual talent/skill set.. and CP3 has him beat in literally every single way.

[catch24]

Um bro... this is a list of ranking individual talent. If you didn't see my list I even said I'd take Kobe, Durant over Dirk. I predicted Dirk at 5 because I knew they would have the playoff run in the back of their mind and not fairly rate him based on INDIVIDUAL talent/skill.

I know what it is. But this isn't about your list. Going by your logic, one season doesn't change what's happened the last 2-3+ years, right? What justification does this list have when Kobe is suddenly disregarded as a top 5 player after arguably being top 3 the past five seasons.


In terms of skill/talent though Kobe has declined enough to where if we ranked this based on skill/talent/production... it would be..

Again though; one season (where Kobe was battling injuries). Dirk had an all-time great postseason run...an MVP caliber season..yet he can only muster a #5 rank from ESPN?

1. Howard
2. LBJ
3. Wade
4. CP3
5. Durant
6. Kobe
7. Rose
8. Dirk
9. D Will
10. Griffin/Gasol/Melo/Amare


How do I come to this conclusion? Because when I think about who is the absolute best player/talent and who I'd take for my team this is how they rank. Some of them are very close. For example I would consider CP3 over Wade, though most wouldn't.

Dirk is just way too low. Way too low. I'm a Bryant fan and I don't even think he's better than Dirk right now. Same goes for Rose, and same with CP3. Lebron/Wade/Dwight/Dirk are all arguable imo.

My point is this. When I list my yearly rankings, I don't go by what happened a few years ago (above, I was merely trying to show you the inconsistencies with that line of thinking). MVP's and scoring titles aren't judged by what you did a year before. You are a scoring champion and a Finals MVP that year you win them. Not two years ago.

That ESPN list sucks ass, point blank. I don't care enough to continue debating this; it's common sense to me. Agree to disagree.

[Clippersfan86]

I know what it is. But this isn't about your list. Going by your and ESPN's logic, one season doesn't change what's happened the last 2-3+ years. What justification does this list have when Kobe is suddenly disregarded as a top 5 player after arguably being top 3 the past five seasons.



Again though - one season (where was battling injuries). Dirk had an all-time great postseason run...an MVP caliber season..yet he can only muster a #5 rank from ESPN?

1. Howard
2. LBJ
3. Wade
4. CP3
5. Durant
6. Kobe
7. Rose
8. Dirk
9. D Will
10. Griffin/Gasol/Melo/Amare



Dirk is just way too low. Way too low. I'm a Bryant fan and I don't even think he's better than Dirk right now. Same with Rose, and same with CP3. Lebron/Wade/Dwight/Dirk are all arguable imo.

My point is this. When I list my yearly rankings, I don't go by what happened a few years ago (above, I merely trying to show you the inconsistencies with that line of thinking). MVP's and scoring titles aren't judged by what you did a year before. You are a scoring champion and a Finals MVP that year win them. Not two years ago.

That ESPN list sucks ass, point blank. I don't care enough to continue debating this; it's common sense to me. Agree to disagree.

You saw Dirk demolish your team en route to leading his team to the title. Of course you can't objectively view them. I'm an LA guy who just so happened to be rooting for the Mavs this postseason. I saw enough of both players this last year to come to the conclusion that Kobe's still the better individual talent than Dirk. I'd choose Kobe for sure. Maybe he's less clutch lately.. and maybe he's not as dominant in the playoffs but this regular season Kobe was easily still better than Dirk.

If you think as an individual talent Dirk is up there with Lebron, Wade and Dwight.... you're beyond help when it comes to ranking players objectively. I can honestly say if all 30 GM's in the NBA had to choose between the 4 players for just one year, for the future or for any criteria.. not a single one takes Dirk over Lebron, Wade and Dwight. Maybe Dirk is the most clutch and carries his team more than Lebron and Wade have to... but that doesn't mean he's the better player.

[RRR3]

Basketball is a team sport. Dirk opens up the floor for everyone on the Mavericks by drawing a big man out 15+ feet away from the basket. the FG% of every Maverick player with and without Dirk on the floor backs this up. Heat could have made the Finals without Wade or Lebron. Mavs would have been going for a lottery pick without Dirk (2-7 without him). He also is the best off the ball player of anyone in the top 20, a skill that is vital for a winning basketball team. And in the clutch, no one can create their own shot easier than Dirk, a skill that basically propelled the Mavs to several huge victories this postseason
The Heat could not have made the finals without LeBron. :facepalm Pretending the ECF never happened are we?:hammerhead:

[catch24]

If you think as an individual talent Dirk is up there with Lebron, Wade and Dwight.... you're beyond help when it comes to ranking players objectively. I can honestly say if all 30 GM's in the NBA had to choose between the 4 players for just one year, for the future or for any criteria.. not a single one takes Dirk over Lebron, Wade and Dwight. Maybe Dirk is the most clutch and carries his team more than Lebron and Wade have to... but that doesn't mean he's the better player.

Has nothing to do with me being a Lakers fan. It's called being objective.

Individual talent does not =/= best player. Dirk had a better season than Lebron last year. You're basically saying it's an outrage to think Dirk was better last season, which is completely off base.

[Clippersfan86]

Has nothing to do with me being a Lakers fan. It's called being objective.

Individual talent does not =/= players. Dirk had a better season than Lebron last year. You're basically saying it's an outrage to think Dirk was better last season, which is completely off base.

Yup I am saying that it's an outrage to rank Dirk above them. How was Dirk better than ANY of those 3 players? CP3 sure you can debate it in some ways... but Dwight, Lebron and Wade are untouchable for Dirk. Dirk finished 6th in MVP voting and that's usually much more generous than an overall player ranking. That alone proves that this hype machine started during and after the playoffs alone.

Give me one good reason that Dirk is better than or even on the same level as Lebron, Wade and Dwight? Besides "OMG he just won the championship" "OMG he carried the Mavs in the playoffs". What else you got? :no:

[chips93]

chris paul is probably my favorite player. the smartest player in the league, so unselfish, and such a great leader. but hes so overrated due to only getting exposire during his good playoff run. cp3 isnt this good. im a big cp3 guy, but id have him below kobe, durant, rose, lebron, wade, dirk and dwight, without question.

hes just not aggressive enough these days to warrant such a high ranking.

[rodman91]

Would you take a 25 year old PG putting up 16 ppg, 10 apg, 4 rpg, 2.5 spg... with elite efficiency and great defense over a 33 year old PF putting up 23 ppg, 7 rpg, 2.5 apg on great efficiency and below average defense? There is your answer.

Don't bring up the playoffs either because Chris Paul is quite possibly the best playoff performing PG in NBA history right after Magic. Dirk literally has no edge over CP3. CP3 had 14 win shares this year which was like 3rd best, Dirk had 11 which is only 1 more than Blake Griffin. Then you look at offensive and defensive ratings and again CP3 crushes him easily.

So main stats+metrics+playoff performances+individual talent/skill set.. and CP3 has him beat in literally every single way.

16 & 10 all season and lost in first round.

23 & 7 all season and one of the greatest playoff runs..defeating 2 time champs & most hyped team ever..winning FMVP, giving franchise first ring...

CP3 had nothing on Dirk.

[chips93]

chris paul is the 4th best player in the league :facepalm

i gues epole just watch nationally televised games and playoff games. :confusedshrug:

[catch24]

Yup I am saying that it's an outrage to rank Dirk above them. How was Dirk better than ANY of those 3 players? CP3 sure you can debate it in some ways... but Dwight, Lebron and Wade are untouchable for Dirk. Dirk finished 6th in MVP voting and that's usually much more generous than an overall player ranking. That alone proves that this hype machine started during and after the playoffs alone.

Prior to his injury (the guy was out 3 weeks iirc), Dirk was regarded by many ESPN analysts as the co-mvp with Rose.

Dirk was a much better scorer than Lebron in the Finals and Wade most of the postseason. Rebounded better than both of them too. If you aren't willing to acknowledge Dirk had a better year than Wade/Lebron, I don't see the point in sharing our opinions.

We're too off to come to an agreement here.

[Legends66NBA7]

Yup I am saying that it's an outrage to rank Dirk above them. How was Dirk better than ANY of those 3 players? CP3 sure you can debate it in some ways... but Dwight, Lebron and Wade are untouchable for Dirk. Dirk finished 6th in MVP voting and that's usually much more generous than an overall player ranking. That alone proves that this hype machine started during and after the playoffs alone.

Give me one good reason that Dirk is better than or even on the same level as Lebron, Wade and Dwight? Besides "OMG he just won the championship" "OMG he carried the Mavs in the playoffs". What else you got? :no:

No it doesn't. MVP voting has always been skewed because the media votes for them and a fan vote. The Mavericks were 2-7 without Dirk last season. Dirk was robbed of All-NBA First Team and put Durant First Team (they overrated him).

If Dirk missed a lot of games that year for Dallas, they might have struggled to even make the playoffs, but I bet the media wouldn't have covered that.

[RRR3]

Dirk having the "best (i.e., most succesful) year" doesn't mean he's the best player in the NBA going into the next season. LeBron was clearly better until the finals, and then he "choked/flopped/became passive" (whatever you want to call it), but that doesn't suddenly make Dirk a better player. He's not. Period.

[catch24]

Dirk having the "best (i.e., most succesful) year" doesn't mean he's the best player in the NBA going into the next season. LeBron was clearly better until the finals, and then he "choked/flopped/became passive" (whatever you want to call it), but that doesn't suddenly make Dirk a better player. He's not. Period.

I don't think anyone is implying that. Lebron choking on the biggest stage doesn't warrant him the best player moniker either, though.

[chips93]

If Dirk missed a lot of games that year for Dallas, they might have struggled to even make the playoffs, but I bet the media wouldn't have covered that.

this

going into the playoffs the media and fans as a whole were tired of hearing about dirk. he had had his opportunities to win a ring, and hed lost, at least in most people's minds.

dirks story had been told, and people werent interested in hearing it again. so a new fresher star took his spot (durant).

[RRR3]

I don't think anyone is implying that. Lebron choking on the biggest stage doesn't warrant him the best player moniker either, though.
It doesn't, but he was easily the best player in the NBA (taking into account both the RS and the first 3 playoff rounds) until the Finals and was clearly the best player in the NBA the two previous seasons as well. Dirk wasn't top 5 either of the last two years IMO and didn't magically become better this year. He doesn't leapfrog all those other players to get over LeBron because he outplayed LeBron for 6 games (granted, the 6 biggest games of the year). Dwight Howard was, IMO, the only player who I thought was possibly better than LeBron during the RS, and D12 had a great playoffs, but was dragged down by his shitty teammates. So why isn't D12 number one? He didn't "choke"; it wasn't his fault his teammates did.

[catch24]

It doesn't, but he was easily the best player in the NBA (taking into account both the RS and the first 3 playoff rounds) until the Finals and was clearly the best player in the NBA the two previous seasons as well. Dirk wasn't top 5 either of the last two years IMO and didn't magically become better this year. He doesn't leapfrog all those other players to get over LeBron because he outplayed LeBron for 6 games (granted, the 6 biggest games of the year). Dwight Howard was, IMO, the only player who I thought was possibly better than LeBron during the RS, and D12 had a great playoffs, but was dragged down by his shitty teammates. So why isn't D12 number one? He didn't "choke"; it wasn't his fault his teammates did.

Going into this season, where would you place Dirk?

I personally think Dwight is the best player in the league, but that's just me.

[Rnbizzle]

Hate to say it, but CP3 is overrated right now. Dude led his team nowhere in the playoffs and played 3 good games. There is no way after this year (playoffs AND regular season) he's better then Rose and Durant right now. Sure if he's healthy a full year and has better teammates he might be perceived as better, but we can't just ignore the fact he got knocked out of the playoffs in the first round and really didn't play all that amazing in the regular season.

[RRR3]

Going into this season, where would you place Dirk?

I personally think Dwight is the best player in the league, but that's just me.

I didn't even have Dirk as the top PF before the playoffs (I had STAT). But Dirk's playoffs bumped him up to 4th or 5th overall on my list. He proved a lot of doubters wrong. His ranking really depends on how healthy CP3 is, for me at least. I don't think Dirk can be ranked above D12, Wade or LeBron in terms of just how good of a player they are right now.

[Legends66NBA7]

I didn't even have Dirk as the top PF before the playoffs (I had STAT). But Dirk's playoffs bumped him up to 4th or 5th overall on my list. He proved a lot of doubters wrong. His ranking really depends on how healthy CP3 is, for me at least. I don't think Dirk can be ranked above D12, Wade or LeBron in terms of just how good of a player they are right now.

Dirk > STAT, before playoffs even start, really.

If Howard is number 1, he's getting overrated.

[catch24]

I didn't even have Dirk as the top PF before the playoffs (I had STAT). But Dirk's playoffs bumped him up to 4th or 5th overall on my list. He proved a lot of doubters wrong. His ranking really depends on how healthy CP3 is, for me at least. I don't think Dirk can be ranked above D12, Wade or LeBron in terms of just how good of a player they are right now.

I think a case can be made for all four, but I also have Wade and Howard over Dirk. Lebron is more talented, a better defender and playmaker, but until he shows me he can withstand the pressure of an NBA Finals (not going multiple 4th quarters scoreless), it's gonna be difficult to defend the guy as the best player in the game.

[pauk]

I don't think anyone is implying that. Lebron choking on the biggest stage doesn't warrant him the best player moniker either, though.

Entire Playoffs = Biggest stage....

difference between Finals & 1st round is NOTHING... its just a different series / teams you will be facing... in the playoffs everyones team record is 0-0... now its up to the matchups to see which team can prevail....

you still get eliminated if you lose in the 1st round...

except in 1st round its 100% "CHOKING" if you lose...
its much more humiliating to lose in the 1st round... but Finals... at least you played so great and got there, but losed to a BETTER TEAM...

Finals means only its the Final series of the Playoffs....

Playoffs where all series is "A BIG STAGE"....

Playoffs where the BEST TEAM will win the Championship... not necesseraly (spelling?) BEST PLAYER.... look around since NBA history and you will see this is true...

[Miller for 3]

The Heat could not have made the finals without LeBron. :facepalm Pretending the ECF never happened are we?:hammerhead:

Yes they would have. Miller is far less ball dominant and would have allowed Wade more offensive freedom. Bosh also had a great matchup against Boozer that series and would have gotten more shot attempts. Miller is also a better rebounder than Lebron. Miami would have won in 6 IMO

[catch24]

Entire Playoffs = Biggest stage....

difference between Finals & 1st round is NOTHING... its just a different series / teams you will be facing... in the playoffs everyones team record is 0-0... now its up to the matchups to see which team can prevail....

you still get eliminated if you lose in the 1st round...

except in 1st round its 100% "CHOKING" if you lose...
its much more humiliating to lose in the 1st round... but Finals... at least you played so great and got there, but losed to a BETTER TEAM...

Finals means only its the Final series of the Playoffs....

Playoffs where all series is "A BIG STAGE"....

Playoffs where the BEST TEAM will win the Championship... not necesseraly (spelling?) BEST PLAYER.... look around since NBA history and you will see this is true...

No doubt. But the NBA Finals (championship) is the cr

[Legends66NBA7]

Yes they would have. Miller is far less ball dominant and would have allowed Wade more offensive freedom. Bosh also had a great matchup against Boozer that series and would have gotten more shot attempts. Miller is also a better rebounder than Lebron. Miami would have won in 6 IMO

http://files.sharenator.com/They_see_me_trollin_They_hatin_The_Art_of_Trolling-s407x405-128685-535.jpg

[Miller for 3]

Not trollin. In the playoffs when Lebron was on the bench, the Heat outscored their opponents by 16ppg . By comparision, the Mavs were outscored by 7 ppg when Dirk was on the bench

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Not trollin. In the playoffs when Lebron was on the bench, the Heat outscored their opponents by 16ppg . By comparision, the Mavs were outscored by 7 ppg when Dirk was on the bench

I mean, I see your point. But I don't think the Heat would have made the finals without LeBron. He was good in the ECSF and ECF. I don't like playing the "what-if" game though.

[Miller for 3]

That's because they still have Wade and Bosh

Exactly. Which is why I said they could replace Lebron with Mike Miller and still make the Finals, while without Dirk the Mavs would be battling for the number one pick

[Clippersfan86]

[QUOTE=catch24]No doubt. But the NBA Finals (championship) is the cr

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

But let's say they didn't have LeBron. They would start Miller at SF? What would happen to their bench scoring? That's the role Miller was supposed to play. He was injured for a big chunk of the season and even when he came back he wasn't really himself. It's hard to replace a guy putting up 26/7/7. Would they still get far with a Wade/Bosh duo? I think so. But I don't think they would win a title or come as close as they did

[rodman91]

Hate to say it, but CP3 is overrated right now. Dude led his team nowhere in the playoffs and played 3 good games. There is no way after this year (playoffs AND regular season) he's better then Rose and Durant right now. Sure if he's healthy a full year and has better teammates he might be perceived as better, but we can't just ignore the fact he got knocked out of the playoffs in the first round and really didn't play all that amazing in the regular season.

:applause:

[RRR3]

This fool said Mike Miller is a better rebounder than LeBron. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Legends66NBA7]

But let's say they didn't have LeBron. They would start Miller at SF? What would happen to their bench scoring? That's the role Miller was supposed to play. He was injured for a big chunk of the season and even when he came back he wasn't really himself. It's hard to replace a guy putting up 26/7/7. Would they still get far with a Wade/Bosh duo? I think so. But I don't think they would win a title or come as close as they did

Lets just say this with no LeBron and Mike Miller (healthy) in the starting line up:


-They would have been worse defensively
-Bench would be worse
-Record would be worse
-Intangibles would be worse
-They make the playoffs, I doubt they make the 2nd seed
-If they faced Boston, they would have lost

[Miller for 3]

CP3 wasn't close to Dirk by impact, stats, or success. IDK how he can be ranked over Dirk based on what has occurred. CP3 is nowhere near as explosive as he was pre injury. He had a good playoff series (against Dfish) but Dirk was better in the regular season and playoffs by a good margin

[Legends66NBA7]

This fool said Mike Miller is a better rebounder than LeBron. :roll: :roll: :roll:

According to offensive defensive and total rebouding percentage, Miller is. Nevermind the difference in minutes, because the percentage said so.

[catch24]

Doesn't matter if the Finals are the ultimate series, showing etc. I give Dirk credit for winning his ring. For doing so he moves right next to KG on all time PF list at 5 and 6... and for all time rank he jumps at least 10-15 spots. I'm giving Dirk his dues. I just disagree with people saying he's a top 3 individual player because he's simply not that good and never has been besides his MVP year maybe.

It doesn't matter to you, but to a lot of people, performing well in the Finals means a lot. Lebron had one of the worst series' from a superstar of his caliber..all-time. You can't ignore that.

You asked me earlier how Dirk was better than Lebron and I gave you my reasons. Dirk was definitely a better scorer and rebounder - more-so in the postseason.

Talent wise, sure. You ask any GM and they'd probably build around Lebron, but that has more to do with his age. However, there's not enough evidence to claim Lebron or Wade had a better season than Dirk last year. If you can't acknowledge that, then just as I said earlier..we'll have to agree to disagree.

[RRR3]

According to offensive defensive and total rebouding percentage, Miller is. Nevermind the difference in minutes, because the percentage said so.
Yeah, Last year, not career wise. Miller played a grand total of 838 minutes last year. Color me unimpressed.

[RRR3]

It doesn't matter to you, but to a lot of people, performing well in the Finals means a lot. Lebron had one of the worst series' from a superstar of his caliber..all-time. You can't ignore that.

You asked me earlier how Dirk was better than Lebron and I gave you my reasons. Dirk was definitely a better scorer and rebounder - more-so in the postseason.

Talent wise, sure. You ask any GM and they'd probably build around Lebron, but that has more to do with his age. However, there's not enough evidence to claim Lebron or Wade had a better season than Dirk last year. If you can't acknowledge that, then just as I said earlier..we'll have to agree to disagree.

Dirk wasn't a better rebounder at all, especially considering his height advantage. LeBron was a fair deal better scoring wise in the regular season and fairly equivalent in the playoffs until the finals.

[catch24]

Dirk wasn't a better rebounder at all, especially considering his height advantage. LeBron was a fair deal better scoring wise in the regular season and fairly equivalent in the playoffs until the finals.

I thought he was a better rebounder, for his height advantage. He has a different personnel so rebounding isn't a fundamental necessity given what he does for that team (score...in bunches). You can debate this though. Touche. Dirk is a much better midrange and long-ball shooter/scorer, though. Converts his FT's at a better rate too. I think him being the better scorer can be legitimately passed off as fact.

[pauk]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6416575#post6416575

its finished...

#1 Lebron James

#2 Dwight Howard

#3 Dwyane Wade

#4 Chris Paul

#5 Dirk Nowitzki <------- (told you Dirktards :D)

#6 Kevin Durant

#7 Kobe Bryant

#8 Derrick Rose

#9 Deron Williams

#10 Blake Griffin

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/71...yer-rankings-3




CHRIS PAUL was easily the most underrated player last year....

[Jacks3]

Terrible list.

Dwight ahead of Wade?

CP3 over Dirk?

Durant over Bryant?

Blake in the top 10?

Meh.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

:oldlol: I love CP3 but how does 1 first round exit series catapult you that much?

[DevilsAssassin]

Terrible list.

Dwight ahead of Wade?

CP3 over Dirk?

Durant over Bryant?

Blake in the top 10?

Meh.

why not:confusedshrug:

[pauk]

:oldlol: I love CP3 but how does 1 first round exit series catapult you that much?

yes but he averaged that series:

22 PPG
7 RPG
12 APG
55% FG
47% 3PT
80% FT

that is magic johnson / oscar robertson'esque....

thats why he led everybody in PER/EFF in playoffs

he was playing INJURED entire year... and was getting back in form... but his team is just terrible.... im very happy these voters understood that...

im very happy the voters understand that a Healthy CP3 is the best pointguard in the game and one of the top top top top players in the NBA

[pauk]

Dwight ahead of Wade?


Lets see...

Dwight was more productive, better numbers and was somewhat more dominant/valuable...

Dwight had 500+++ MVP votes, Wade had 24 MVP (same as Ginobili for gods sake) votes..

Dwight won Defensive Player of the Year

Dwight was in 1st All-NBA team.... Wade was not..

Dwight was in 1st All-Defensive team... Wade was not..

Dwight was not a slouch in the playoffs either... Wades team was better tho..

But my point is... its easy to see the argument to why Dwight is ahead of Wade...

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

yes but he averaged that series:

22 PPG
7 RPG
12 APG
55% FG
47% 3PT
80% FT

that is magic johnson / oscar robertson'esque....

Again, it's ONE series. It was good, no doubt. But 6 games is not enough to put a guy in the Top 10. Anything can happen in 6 games.


thats why he led everybody in PER/EFF in playoffs

..........


he was playing INJURED entire year... and was getting back in form... but his team is just terrible.... im very happy these voters understood that...

No, he wasn't injured the entire year. He was saving himself for the playoffs. His team wasn't that great I agree. They may have overachieved slightly, but that's not what everyone is basing his ranking off of. They are going off of that 1 series in the 1st round.


im very happy the voters understand that a Healthy CP3 is the best pointguard in the game and one of the top top top top players in the NBA

That may be true, but you can't play the "when so and so is healthy" and "what if" game when ranking players. Hell if Kobe was 100% healthy (no knee, ankle, finger or back problems) he could be the best player in the league. But the fact is he isn't. You can't start making up scenarios. We all know what CP3 can do when healthy, but he didn't do it. That's my point. 1 series doesn't automatically bump him into Top 10. If he would have played like that or near that the entire season then it would be a different story.

[greensborohill]

Yes because one epic postseason= where a player should rank as an individual. I'm surprised at how twisted the logic is on ISH. Let's say 5 years from now the Clippers won the championship and Blake Griffin was considered the 5th best player. You think it's realistic that all the sudden everyone automatically puts him 1st because of a ring? If this list was a "Recently accomplished" list... Dirk would be first but it's NOT.

Shutup already

If Blake wins in five years (which he won't, he'll never win) then YES he'd be #1.

[Pointguard]

#1 Lebron James - minus shrinkage in the playoffs its right

#2 Dwight Howard - has no comp at his position and when does get big guys like Yao, Bynum and Damp he's mediocore.

#3 Dwyane Wade - Should be at two

#4 Chris Paul - A great playoffs but outside of that, the last two years... he's shouldn't be top ten. Anybody can have a great one series tho. 9-12???

#5 Dirk Nowitzki - Behind CP??? Has to be top five.

#6 Kevin Durant - Ahead of Kobe???

#7 Kobe Bryant - Should be battling Dirk at five.

#8 Derrick Rose - If last year is top value, he's higher for sure.

#9 Deron Williams - Apparently they aren't going by last year except in CP playoff run.

#10 Blake Griffin - wait they are going by last year.

The existence of Blake on the list automatically means Rose and Dirk should be higher ranked because it's taken into account, heavily, last year. The existence of Paul so high means they are going back three years. I hate it when people rank and change their standard every other player. Just be consistent.

[greensborohill]

Yup I am saying that it's an outrage to rank Dirk above them. How was Dirk better than ANY of those 3 players? CP3 sure you can debate it in some ways... but Dwight, Lebron and Wade are untouchable for Dirk. Dirk finished 6th in MVP voting and that's usually much more generous than an overall player ranking. That alone proves that this hype machine started during and after the playoffs alone.

Give me one good reason that Dirk is better than or even on the same level as Lebron, Wade and Dwight? Besides "OMG he just won the championship" "OMG he carried the Mavs in the playoffs". What else you got? :no:

OMG, he just won the championship!!

[pauk]

Again, it's ONE series. It was good, no doubt. But 6 games is not enough to put a guy in the Top 10. Anything can happen in 6 games.



..........



No, he wasn't injured the entire year. He was saving himself for the playoffs. His team wasn't that great I agree. They may have overachieved slightly, but that's not what everyone is basing his ranking off of. They are going off of that 1 series in the 1st round.



That may be true, but you can't play the "when so and so is healthy" and "what if" game when ranking players. Hell if Kobe was 100% healthy (no knee, ankle, finger or back problems) he could be the best player in the league. But the fact is he isn't. You can't start making up scenarios. We all know what CP3 can do when healthy, but he didn't do it. That's my point. 1 series doesn't automatically bump him into Top 10. If he would have played like that or near that the entire season then it would be a different story.


yea i agree somewhat... im surprised about CP3


but im surprised about KOBE to.............

i dont like Kobe as u may now....... but damn........ i think he is easily still Top 5... lower than last year (#2 at least)... but not #7.......

i dont know if that was because of:

injuries... if it was, then he doesnt deserve #7....

if it wasnt because of injures, he just decreased simply.. then #7 is about correct...

we shall see this upcoming season what was the case

[greensborohill]

Yup I am saying that it's an outrage to rank Dirk above them. How was Dirk better than ANY of those 3 players? CP3 sure you can debate it in some ways... but Dwight, Lebron and Wade are untouchable for Dirk. Dirk finished 6th in MVP voting and that's usually much more generous than an overall player ranking. That alone proves that this hype machine started during and after the playoffs alone.

Give me one good reason that Dirk is better than or even on the same level as Lebron, Wade and Dwight? Besides "OMG he just won the championship" "OMG he carried the Mavs in the playoffs". What else you got? :no:


Why didn't LeBron and Wade beat Dirk?

Give me one good reason?

And don't tell me it was the rest of the team. . only 5 players play at a time and one of those two was ALWAYS on the court. Dallas only had Dirk in the top 30.

[Jan95]

Haha, in top 3, there are 2 Heat players and they didnt win the Finals? :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Clippersfan86]

Why didn't LeBron and Wade beat Dirk?

Give me one good reason?

And don't tell me it was the rest of the team. . only 5 players play at a time and one of those two was ALWAYS on the court. Dallas only had Dirk in the top 30.

Are you really asking this dude? It's a team sport and in the finals the Mavs were CLEARLY the better team. It's not about Dirk vs Lebron+Wade. That's not how basketball works.

[pauk]

Why didn't LeBron and Wade beat Dirk?

Give me one good reason?

they didnt beat Dirk for the same reason:

Kobe and his championship defending team was not able to beat Mavs, infact get sweeped, early...

Wilt Chamberlain was not able to beat Bill Russell and the Celtics...

Michael Jordan was not able to beat anybody until he was 27-28 years old...

and so on............


AND FOR THE SAME REASON DIRK NOWITZKI WAS NOT ABLE TO BEAT ANYONE UNTIL NOW............

BECAUSE THE BEST TEAM WILL WIN AND NOT THE BEST PLAYER....

[pauk]

Haha, in top 3, there are 2 Heat players and they didnt win the Finals? :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Neither did that stop Lebron & Wade being actually #1 and #2 (or #3 for Wade if u think Kobe was better that year) best players in 08-09.... and they didnt even went to Finals that year....

[greensborohill]

Are you really asking this dude? It's a team sport and in the finals the Mavs were CLEARLY the better team. It's not about Dirk vs Lebron+Wade. That's not how basketball works.

Five guys play at any given time, right?

How can anyone in their right minds say that team sporting the supposed #1, #3, & #24 players wouldn't beat a team with the supposed #5 player and four other guys on the court at any given time that were no greater than 36. . . . . so you tell me, If #1 & #3 can't beat #5, then how is #5 really #5? The answer is that he's not. . . he's #1, he made his teamates better while #1 & #3 hogged the ball and took bad shots and blew their load. Then to top it off, they both quit on their teams in game 6. Just do me a favor and shut u already. I get your point, I understand that it's wrong, and I don't want to hear it again.

[pauk]

ITS OFFICIAL....

DWIGHT #2.... and guess who at #1?

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7116954/nba-player-rankings-2




thank u it's very humbling thanks espn

42 minutes ago

[Clippersfan86]

Five guys play at any given time, right?

How can anyone in their right minds say that team sporting the supposed #1, #3, & #24 players wouldn't beat a team with the supposed #5 player and four other guys on the court at any given time that were no greater than 36. . . . . so you tell me, If #1 & #3 can't beat #5, then how is #5 really #5? The answer is that he's not. . . he's #1, he made his teamates better while #1 & #3 hogged the ball and took bad shots and blew their load. Then to top it off, they both quit on their teams in game 6. Just do me a favor and shut u already. I get your point, I understand that it's wrong, and I don't want to hear it again.

You don't realize you're arguing FOR me not against me bro. If the number 1 and 3 players can't overcome the number 5 player there is only one explanation. The number 5 player had the better team. Is this hard for you to understand?

[Jameerthefear]

#1 Lebron James - minus shrinkage in the playoffs its right

#2 Dwight Howard - has no comp at his position and when does get big guys like Yao, Bynum and Damp he's mediocore.


Dwight has DOMINATED LA and Bynum multiple times.
Uh since when has Dampier stopped Dwight?
The last time Yao when against Dwight was in 09 I'm pretty sure, when he had a lack of a postgame.
man i am such a dwight homer.

[greensborohill]

J.A. Adande, ESPN.com: Just right. Sigh. This feels like the golf and women's tennis rankings, in which the No. 1 players never win championships. LeBron's array of skills is unmatched. He just doesn't put them all to the best use.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Fvcking TRUTH!!! Stupid azz mofo!!!

[greensborohill]

You don't realize you're arguing FOR me not against me bro. If the number 1 and 3 players can't overcome the number 5 player there is only one explanation. The number 5 player had the better team. Is this hard for you to understand?

:facepalm

Not when you also have the #24 player, and Dirk didn't have another player in the top 30 . . . . .

Plus, only 5 guys play at a time. Dirk was the reason they won, and LeBron was the reason they lost. He's an epic choker and he's not the best player in basketball.

If I had to choose one guy to take a shot that my life depended on, I'm not pick LeBron, that's for fvcking sure.

[Clippersfan86]

:facepalm

Not when you also have the #24 player, and Dirk didn't have another player in the top 30 . . . . .

Plus, only 5 guys play at a time. Dirk was the reason they won, and LeBron was the reason they lost. He's an epic choker and he's not the best player in basketball.

If I had to choose one guy to take a shot that my life depended on, I'm not pick LeBron, that's for fvcking sure.

Well you're ranking them based on regular season and applying that to the finals. In the playoffs Dirk was the best player in the NBA and his teammates like Kidd, Marion and Chandler were all top 20.

[pauk]

:facepalm

Not when you also have the #24 player, and Dirk didn't have another player in the top 30 . . . . .

Plus, only 5 guys play at a time. Dirk was the reason they won, and LeBron was the reason they lost. He's an epic choker and he's not the best player in basketball.

If I had to choose one guy to take a shot that my life depended on, I'm not pick LeBron, that's for fvcking sure.

neither would i..... i would rather not choose anybody.... would rather kill myself lol...


but... maybe Reggie Miller or Larry Bird... they can hit shots with their eyes closed and while getting mauled by hyenas :D

[Inactive]

Five guys play at any given time, right?

How can anyone in their right minds say that team sporting the supposed #1, #3, & #24 players wouldn't beat a team with the supposed #5 player and four other guys on the court at any given time that were no greater than 36. . . . . so you tell me, If #1 & #3 can't beat #5, then how is #5 really #5? The answer is that he's not. . . he's #1, he made his teamates better while #1 & #3 hogged the ball and took bad shots and blew their load. Then to top it off, they both quit on their teams in game 6. Just do me a favor and shut u already. I get your point, I understand that it's wrong, and I don't want to hear it again.You obviously don't understand his point, if you think
If #1 & #3 can't beat #5, then how is #5 really #5?.

You can have good individual players, without having a good team. If you had a team of 5 prime Ben Wallaces, they would go 0-82. Ben Wallace was a very good player, but without teammates, who make up for his weaknesses, he's useless.

Synergy is as important as talent, and Miami didn't have good synergy. The only players who's skills were maximized, on that team, were the shooters. Part of that is because of overlapping skillsets, part of it is because they lacked chemistry, and part might be bad coaching. On top of that, Lebron had a bad series.

[Clippersfan86]

You obviously don't understand his point, if you think .

You can have good individual players, without having a good team. If you had a team of 5 prime Ben Wallaces, they would go 0-82. Ben Wallace was a very good player, but without teammates, who make up for his weaknesses, he's useless.

Synergy is as important as talent, and Miami didn't have good synergy. The only players who's skills were maximized, on that team, were the shooters. Part of that is because of overlapping skillsets, part of it is because they lacked chemistry, and part might be bad coaching. On top of that, Lebron had a bad series.

Repped. Exactly what it's about. Not to mention in the playoffs all the Mavs players elevated their games. Marion looked like old Marion, Chandler dominated the paint, Kidd took over games, Terry tore the Heat up a couple games and hit other big shots. List goes on.

[chazzy]

The Heat had the better talent and were favored to win. Their star power didin't deliver when it mattered, while Dirk did.. that was the difference in the series. Multiple games in the finals came down to the 4th quarter and the two teams were polar opposites in clutch play. Clippersfan/Inactive's reasoning would stick if Lebron played his usual game and still lost, but had he just played at a normal all star level, Miami would be the champs.

[greensborohill]

You obviously don't understand his point, if you think .

You can have good individual players, without having a good team. If you had a team of 5 prime Ben Wallaces, they would go 0-82. Ben Wallace was a very good player, but without teammates, who make up for his weaknesses, he's useless.

Synergy is as important as talent, and Miami didn't have good synergy. The only players who's skills were maximized, on that team, were the shooters. Part of that is because of overlapping skillsets, part of it is because they lacked chemistry, and part might be bad coaching. On top of that, Lebron had a bad series.

LeBron mentally checked out. He shot a good % (48%) but was crushed by the moment. That's not a bad series, that's being mentally weak, that's a character flaw, that's a part of the player he is and has proven to be for a few playoffs now.

As far as your other point goes, the lack of Synergy is on them as individual players. For two guys that always have the mantra "makes their teamates better" (go look it up, it's true, they always say this about those two) attached to them, why couldn't they create synergy for the other players? Those two are not as good as advertised.

[catch24]

The Heat had the better talent and were favored to win. Their star power didin't deliver when it mattered, while Dirk did.. that was the difference in the series. Multiple games in the finals came down to the 4th quarter and the two teams were polar opposites in clutch play. Clippersfan/Inactive's reasoning would stick if Lebron played his usual game and still lost, but had he just played at a normal all star level, Miami would be the champs.

Here again, you bring perspective to the thread.

[greensborohill]

Repped. Exactly what it's about. Not to mention in the playoffs all the Mavs players elevated their games. Marion looked like old Marion, Chandler dominated the paint, Kidd took over games, Terry tore the Heat up a couple games and hit other big shots. List goes on.

That's on James and Wade then.

When did we become a country of puzzies, where we don't expect our star players to raise their fvcking game in the playoffs?


And to you synergy point, I can tell you that, to a man, the Dallas roleplayers looked at their leader Dirk, saw that he was raising his game and did the same. Come the NBA Finals, who did the rest of the Heat have to look to? Not James. Not Wade in game 6. That's on them, that should be taken into consideration when evaluating them as players. Chris Bosh seemed to be the only guy out there that gave a fvck for that team.

[chazzy]

Here again, you bring perspective to the thread.
And that was pretty much the consensus opinion after the Finals.. I guess memories fade with time :lol

[pauk]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/05/hatergif.gif

[Clippersfan86]

The Heat had the better talent and were favored to win. Their star power didin't deliver when it mattered, while Dirk did.. that was the difference in the series. Multiple games in the finals came down to the 4th quarter and the two teams were polar opposites in clutch play. Clippersfan/Inactive's reasoning would stick if Lebron played his usual game and still lost, but had he just played at a normal all star level, Miami would be the champs.

You guys are getting hung up on the wrong thing when talking Miami vs Dallas. The difference WASN'T Dirk alone. It was the fact that as a TEAM defensively they overwhelmed Miami's star players, neither of which were guarded by Dirk. If Kidd, Marion, Stephenson don't play excellent defense in that series, Mavs get swept probably. That doesn't even factor in Barea's and Terry's massive bench contributions. Or Chandler's excellent interior defense.

People accusing me of revisionist history need to take a look in the mirror. YES Dirk was the star. YES Dirk was the best player of the playoffs. NO he didn't "carry" that team. They all pitched in a huge way last postseason. The playoffs are a very small sampling size to use compared to 82 regular season games when talking about individual talent. Dirk wasn't considered a top 5 player by anyone going into the playoffs and he shouldn't be now.

[greensborohill]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/05/hatergif.gif

[dynasty1978]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Fvcking TRUTH!!! Stupid azz mofo!!!

Love that quote by Adande, followed by these gems fromcMark Haubner, TrueHoop Network:
"Just right. I guess. Maybe No. 1 is better left as "Vacant" for now."
:applause: :applause:

[Inactive]

LeBron mentally checked out. He shot a good % (48%) but was crushed by the moment. That's not a bad series, that's being mentally weak, that's a character flaw, that's a part of the player he is and has proven to be for a few playoffs now. He had a bad series, regardless of the reason. He played significantly worse than he typically plays. He wasn't the best player in that series, but he was probably the best player in the league for the other 97 games in 2011 collectively.


As far as your other point goes, the lack of Synergy is on them as individual players. For two guys that always have the mantra "makes their teamates better" (go look it up, it's true, they always say this about those two) attached to them, why couldn't they create synergy for the other players? Those two are not as good as advertised.An individual can't create synergy, it's something that exists within the group. If you have a great perimeter scorer, who can get a decent shot at any time, is it helpful to pair him with 4 more scorers? NO! Even if the four other scorers were allstars, you'd be better off giving him average roleplayers, and one good defensive/rebounding bigman.

[greensborohill]

You guys are getting hung up on the wrong thing when talking Miami vs Dallas. The difference WASN'T Dirk alone. It was the fact that as a TEAM defensively they overwhelmed Miami's star players, neither of which were guarded by Dirk. If Kidd, Marion, Stephenson don't play excellent defense in that series, Mavs get swept probably. That doesn't even factor in Barea's and Terry's massive bench contributions. Or Chandler's excellent interior defense.

People accusing me of revisionist history need to take a look in the mirror. YES Dirk was the star. YES Dirk was the best player of the playoffs. NO he didn't "carry" that team. They all pitched in a huge way last postseason. The playoffs are a very small sampling size to use compared to 82 regular season games when talking about individual talent. Dirk wasn't considered a top 5 player by anyone going into the playoffs and he shouldn't be now.

You mad, G?

[greensborohill]

He had a bad series, regardless of the reason. He played significantly worse than he typically plays. He wasn't the best player in that series, but he was probably the best player in the league for the other 97 games in 2011 collectively.

An individual can't create synergy, it's something that exists within the group. If you have a great perimeter scorer, who can get a decent shot at any time, is it helpful to pair him with 4 more scorers? NO! Even if the four other scorers were allstars, you'd be better off giving him average roleplayers, and one good defensive/rebounding bigman.

You mad, G?

I told you, he didn't have a bad series, other than the fact the his azzhole tightened up when sh!t go real. That's on him. That's not the first time he did it, won't be the last. That should seriously discount his worth as a player b/c he can't be trusted in big moments.

[Clippersfan86]

You mad, G?

Haha you're the one telling everyone to shut up and nerd raging bro. :roll:

[greensborohill]

Haha you're the one telling everyone to shut up and nerd raging bro. :roll:

I'm sly like a muhfvcka dog!! You don't see me losing my cool! :pimp:

EDIT: FYI, I only act like a thug online. No hard feelings.

[Inactive]

You mad, G?lol, what did I say, to imply that I was mad?


I told you, he didn't have a bad series, other than the fact the his azzhole tightened up when sh!t go real. That's on him. That's not the first time he did it, won't be the last. That should seriously discount his worth as a player b/c he can't be trusted in big moments."Regardless of the reason". When looking at individual skill, don't you think it's more meaningful to look at our entire 103 game sample, rather than isolating 6 of them? Obviously, his performance in the finals is going to impact his legacy, but it's not very important if you're listing the best players throughout the entire season, or going into next season.

[greensborohill]

lol, what did I say, to imply that I was mad?

"Regardless of the reason". When looking at individual skill, don't you think it's more meaningful to look at our entire 103 game sample, rather than isolating 6 of them? Obviously, his performance in the finals is going to impact his legacy, but it's not very important if you're listing the best players throughout the entire season, or going into next season.

It's not just 6 though. It's his final series as a Cav, and his performance in the Olympics. It's def. a patern at this point. I'm not saying to knock him down to a 6 from a 10. But a 9.5 or a 9 from a 10 needs to be considered b/c I can see "freak-out" moments like this happening to him again.

At this point, now that we've seen a history of it, it has to be considered a part of who he is: Great athlete, great driver, great passer, good rebounder, great at playing passing lanes, great weakside shot blocker, will check out at big moments.

[chazzy]

The playoffs are a very small sampling size to use compared to 82 regular season games when talking about individual talent. Dirk wasn't considered a top 5 player by anyone going into the playoffs and he shouldn't be now.
Here is the difference. I think we need to take a step back and remind ourselves what these guys are playing for - sure Lebron has the talent and capability of playing like the best player in the world, but the fact is that Dirk outplayed him in the finals and the playoffs overall. That shouldn't be dismissed as a small sample size because those small sample of games directly lead to winning a championship, the ultimate goal. And when you play better than anyone else for the most important stretch of the year, you put yourself in that conversation of best player IMO. Especially when the supposed best player crumbled as badly as he did.

[DMAVS41]

It's not just 6 though. It's his final series as a Cav, and his performance in the Olympics. It's def. a patern at this point. I'm not saying to knock him down to a 6 from a 10. But a 9.5 or a 9 from a 10 needs to be considered b/c I can see "freak-out" moments like this happening to him again.

At this point, now that we've seen a history of it, it has to be considered a part of who he is: Great athlete, great driver, great passer, good rebounder, great at playing passing lanes, great weakside shot blocker, will check out at big moments.

yep. he has to prove those things are a fluke. every great player has had moments like that, but Lebron has had a few already in his career...in which his individual play was simply not good enough to allow his team to win.

07 finals
first few games of the 08 boston series
10 boston series
11 finals

That is 4 years....with the only exception being the 09 run where he was historically great. That is "a history" of let downs. I'd give him a pass for some of them, but the last 2 years make me question whether or not he's capable of doing what it takes all the way through.

and the best player in the game shouldn't be a guy you have serious questions about his ability to a team a championship...especially when that team happens to be about as stacked/loaded as any team in the league.

[DMAVS41]

Here is the difference. I think we need to take a step back and remind ourselves what these guys are playing for - sure Lebron has the talent and capability of playing like the best player in the world, but the fact is that Dirk outplayed him in the finals and the playoffs overall. That shouldn't be dismissed as a small sample size because those small sample of games directly lead to winning a championship, the ultimate goal. And when you play better than anyone else for the most important stretch of the year, you put yourself in that conversation of best player IMO. Especially when the supposed best player crumbled as badly as he did.

Good points. I'd also like to add how many meaningless regular season games there are. First off...there are 82. So many. Second, there are so many bad teams that simply can't compete with a team as talented as the Heat night in night out. And also, so many teams don't show up in the regular season and quite frankly there are a lot of free wins.

So I'm just not all the impressed by what any player does in the regular season unless its something just historic. Like Lebron's individual and team play in 09/10.

The playoffs are what matters in the NBA. The pressure. The grind. Teams showing up every night. No free wins. Nothing easy...etc. Who cares what players do when they play the twolves or nets and all the other bad teams?

I want to see what these guys do in the playoffs. And the simple fact is that Lebron has pretty much never played well enough for his team to win a title (other than 09). We can make excuses, but this year really does call into question a lot of things in the past. 10 doesn't look like a fluke anymore...etc.

If you can't win a title with the supposed best player in the game as your best player on a stacked team because he can't play well enough.... he simply isn't the best player.

Not until he proves otherwise at least.

[pegasus]

Here is the difference. I think we need to take a step back and remind ourselves what these guys are playing for - sure Lebron has the talent and capability of playing like the best player in the world, but the fact is that Dirk outplayed him in the finals and the playoffs overall. That shouldn't be dismissed as a small sample size because those small sample of games directly lead to winning a championship, the ultimate goal. And when you play better than anyone else for the most important stretch of the year, you put yourself in that conversation of best player IMO. Especially when the supposed best player crumbled as badly as he did.

Agreed. No matter how fast you run in the beginning of a marathon, if you collapse (choke in his case) in the final mile, year after year, you are not the best. Plain and simple.

[D-Wade316]

i told you.... so much goes for PER/STATS when Dirk & Lebron were the ones who CLOSED the games & series out the best..........
Then you are being hypocritical. You always bring up useless RS stats like Lebron's PER being the highest in the league, but dismiss Lebron's PER in the PS, where he ranked 6th in the playoffs, just because he choked on the Finals and played great in the ECF and semifinals?

Lebron was leading in PER (amongst the active players) just before the Finals.... he had 3 horrible games which dropped his averages down dramatically.....
:no: CP3 was. Wade had lead James, in PER, after the Boston series. Wade lost that lead after against the Bulls.

but just like i said, STATS doesnt matter at all if you cant CLOSE THE GAMES/SERIES OUT.............. which neither Lebron nor Wade was able to do in the Finals..............
So Wade's PS> Lebron's PS?

even if you go by stats... look at Wades PER/STATS in Bulls series which was the "reason" to them being in the Finals first of all..........
You said that stats don't matter if they can't close games out. You must also apply that to Wade who played excellent defense and close the games out like Lebron.

if it wasnt for Lebron going insane in the Bulls series... Wade would not be in the Finals...

But would Lebron have had a chance to "close" the games out if Wade didn't went nuts against the Celtics?

i dont know when u became a Lebron hater all of the sudden... but ok...
:facepalm Go see my list.