Michael Jordan is Overrated (Videos by MerkinMuffly)

[Round Mound]

Part 1; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53dn_D6FWBk&feature=feedu

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5oCGz32_Zg&feature=feedu

[Fazotronic]

Blasphemy!!!

[Real Men Wear Green]

Did Not Read...the video. Why even bother making a video if all you want to do is type? Borefest. And I'm one of the minority that thinks KAJ was the greatest ever and not Jordan.

[Round Mound]

Kobe fans must be dancing with happiness :roll: :facepalm

[rodman91]

Videos by http://images.wikia.com/spongebobandfriendsadventures/images/7/74/Mr._Swackhammer.jpg

[asd]

did not read (YOUR VIDEOS)

[BlackJoker23]

op got bukkaked by barkley and shaq. video creator is a bird nvtugger

op is a phagg0t

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe fans must be dancing with happiness :roll: :facepalm

Jordan stans must be so mad right now....


there walls of text of "MJ was too young , MJ was Rusty , MJ had no teamates , MJ was too old"....are going down like Snookie from jersey Shore...

MM took it to the next level.....i recognize:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[pegasus]

I just read/watched the first part. It's pointless to hold his college years against him, because nobody says he was the best player in the NCAA.

He improved his game each and every year, and by the end of the first 3-peat, he had become the GOAT.

[G-Funk]

Kobe fans must be dancing with happiness :roll: :facepalm

A Larry Bird fan made the video:oldlol:

[mattvNJ]

that video was just full of crazy what-if scenarios and bs reasoning as to why he didn't deserve the titles. Im not a huge MJ fan but he is one of the greatest's. Slightly overrated maybe. But no where near as overrated as the video is stating.

[AlphaWolf24]

I just read/watched the first part. It's pointless to hold his college years against him, because nobody says he was the best player in the NCAA.

He improved his game each and every year, and by the end of the first 3-peat, he had become the GOAT.


to who??.....I guarantee you most "hardcore fans" would not rank Jordan with 3 titles and 3 Losing seasons over Kareem , Russell , Magic and Bird...

maybe kids who robbed and begged for Jordans shoes might rank him higher....but not real fans.

[Jacks3]

No surprise. MJ in today's league would be nothing more than a poor-man's Joe Johnson.

[Deuce Bigalow]

6

[creepingdeath]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/168/697/34npc3l.jpg?1314742980

[Cali Syndicate]

No surprise. MJ in today's league would be nothing more than a poor-man's Joe Johnson.

Wade is practically a mirror image of Jordan and he seems to do quite well.

But Jordan was a better slasher (although IMO Wade is one of the all time great slashers), better shooter, better post up game, better finisher at the rim, better defender (both man and help), taller, jumped higher, more explosive, perhaps stronger (Wade is pretty strong), etc etc.....

And considering the ticky tack fouls they call in today's game, I see no problem Jordan getting to the line 10 times a game season after season, which BTW he has only done ONCE in his career and that was in 87 when slashing was the main basis of his game.

Poor man's Joe Johnson? Serious? .....POOR MAN'S????

FAIL dude.

[juju151111]

No surprise. MJ in today's league would be nothing more than a poor-man's Joe Johnson.
:wtf:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

No surprise. MJ in today's league would be nothing more than a poor-man's Tony Allen.

fixed

I kid, I kid

[Math2]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]6

[juju151111]

fixed

I kid, I kid
:facepalm Retards in this thread come in bunches.

[madmax]

Everyone who watched him and his stacked ass Bulls in the 90's knows he cake-walked into title year after year...his jockers want to act like competition was tough as nails, yet videos like this shine a bright new light on the story:applause: The only tough team he faced in those days was Magic with young Shaq - is it a surprise that they beat Bulls one year too? Not to any knowledgeable fan at least...once again, thanks to OP for this amazing clip:cheers:

[Jacks3]

Everyone who watched him and his stacked ass Bulls in the 90's knows he cake-walked into title year after year...his jockers want to act like competition was tough as nails, yet videos like this shine a bright new light on the story:applause: The only tough team he faced in those days was Magic with young Shaq - is it a surprise that they beat Bulls one year too? Not to any knowledgeable fan at least...once again, thanks to OP for this amazing clip:cheers:
:applause:

[SuperPippen]

Everyone who watched him and his stacked ass Bulls in the 90's knows he cake-walked into title year after year...his jockers want to act like competition was tough as nails, yet videos like this shine a bright new light on the story:applause: The only tough team he faced in those days was Magic with young Shaq - is it a surprise that they beat Bulls one year too? Not to any knowledgeable fan at least...once again, thanks to OP for this amazing clip:cheers:

:blah

Who didn't win with a stacked roster?

No one but Dirk and Hakeem come to mind.

[G-train]

What if.... Kobe stayed at Charlotte.

NBA is full of what ifs.

[catch24]

Hate these type of videos, but it's funny when they come from the other-side of the spectrum. Same number of convenient conditions naysayers slap on Kobe, except it's passed off as 'factual evidence' :oldlol:

[Nick Young]

Can't believe people still think this guy's better than Kobe:lol

[Nick Young]

No surprise. MJ in today's league would be nothing more than a poor-man's Joe Johnson.
More like poor man's Kobe Bryant

[rodman91]

Can't believe people still think this guy's better than Kobe:lol
http://kanyejokes.com/interrupted_images/2009/10/kanye-interrupts-kobe-jordan.jpg

[Asukal]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Vid maker is butthurt. He'd say "let's take an indepth look" then post a few sentences and call it indepth. And here I was ready to be educated, turns out to be just another biased stan.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[AlphaWolf24]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Vid maker is butthurt. He'd say "let's take an indepth look" then post a few sentences and call it indepth. And here I was ready to be educated, turns out to be just another biased stan.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


what a worthless post....Video shows facts and then backs it up with video...

it breaks it down barney style for all basketball fans and clearly shows Jordan had little impact on the win/loss column...or at least , very little compare to the other alltime greats...



you just basically said nothing except your horrible pointless opinion with "0" facts......turrable...just turrable...





next

[BlackJoker23]

lol at jordan getting replaced by cba scrub pete myers and bulls going to the ecsf. lol at bulls being robbed with hue hollins call.refs didnt want jordanless bulls to win the chip. lol at pippen getting to the wcf without mgay. lol at mgay not winning shit without pippnen. its clear jordan was the sidekick

[RRR3]

what a worthless post....Video shows facts and then backs it up with video...

it breaks it down barney style for all basketball fans and clearly shows Jordan had little impact on the win/loss column...or at least , very little compare to the other alltime greats...



you just basically said nothing except your horrible pointless opinion with "0" facts......turrable...just turrable...





next

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJo5e6sxUz4


GODDAMN!!!!! You just got ethered, son!



(opens pocket)




Get back in there, boy.








Next.








:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[AlphaWolf24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJo5e6sxUz4


GODDAMN!!!!! You just got ethered, son!



(opens pocket)




Get back in there, boy.








Next.








:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Kobe bieng nice after shiTTin all over MJ making dat niQQa cry on the bench after droppin 55 on him ...makin him quit after 2 quarters:lol

even Steven A Smith was comparing a 25 year old Kobe to Jordan:roll:



next

[bond10]

No surprise. MJ in today's league would be nothing more than a poor-man's Joe Johnson.


Tony Allen....

[Asukal]

what a worthless post....Video shows facts and then backs it up with video...

it breaks it down barney style for all basketball fans and clearly shows Jordan had little impact on the win/loss column...or at least , very little compare to the other alltime greats...



you just basically said nothing except your horrible pointless opinion with "0" facts......turrable...just turrable...





next

It is not opinion, it is FACT. He said "let us take an IN DEPTH look at the great teams jordan faced" then the next couple of sentences he talks about NY only having one hall of famer and a bunch of scrubs. That's not an IN DEPTH analysis, he didn't even post stats of those "scrubs" compared to Jordan's team or video analysis of why Jordan's team mates were better. If anyone was posting bullshit OPINIONS, its the video maker. Hell, with you getting MAD, it must be your vid. :roll:

U MAD? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[RRR3]

Kobe bieng nice after shiTTin all over MJ making dat niQQa cry on the bench after droppin 55 on him ...makin him quit after 2 quarters:lol

even Steven A Smith was comparing a 25 year old Kobe to Jordan:roll:



next

So when LeBron said Kobe was better, he was being nice too, eh? After shitting on Kobe to the tune of going 10-5 against him.

[bwink23]

When the Bulls won 55 games in 1994...No one seems to mention that they had 11 players on their roster from both the first 3-peat team AND the second 3-peat team TOGETHER at one time. What happened the next year when they lost Grant, Cartwright, BJ, and some key role players????

34-31 and fighting to make the playoffs, until Jordan came back and they went 13-4........So **** YOU

[Legends66NBA7]

When the Bulls won 55 games in 1994...No one seems to mention that they had 11 players on their roster from both the first 3-peat team AND the second 3-peat team TOGETHER at one time. What happened the next year when they lost Grant, Cartwright, BJ, and some key role players????

34-31 and fighting to make the playoffs, until Jordan came back and they went 13-4........So **** YOU

No need to respond to Merkin, bwink. He's just another homer grasping at straws.

[StarJordan]

to who??.....I guarantee you most "hardcore fans" would not rank Jordan with 3 titles and 3 Losing seasons over Kareem , Russell , Magic and Bird...

maybe kids who robbed and begged for Jordans shoes might rank him higher....but not real fans.

FUNNY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=290

Michael Jordan ALREADY was considered GOAT by 1st 3 peat. And not just by kids. Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas BOTH declared Jordan the greatest of all time BEFORE the bulls had even 3-peated against Phoenix.

[StarJordan]

age 29
http://www.youtube.com/user/1987Hawkeyes#p/search/26/kEltSWCzIgI

[AlphaWolf24]

FUNNY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=290

Michael Jordan ALREADY was considered GOAT by 1st 3 peat. And not just by kids. Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas BOTH declared Jordan the greatest of all time BEFORE the bulls had even 3-peated against Phoenix.
:applause:

great....so we also agree with Magic "Kobe is the greatest laker of alltime"??


right?...that would easily put him top 2 - 3 alltime players...after all Magic represents all the hard core fans...






2EZ



next

[Doranku]

So when LeBron said Kobe was better, he was being nice too, eh? After shitting on Kobe to the tune of going 10-5 against him.

LeBron might have 5 regular season wins over Kobe, but Kobe's got 5 rings over LeBron. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :oldlol:

[the_wise_one]

Jordan was overrated from 1996 to 2000.

After that his overrated title was taken over by Kobe.

[AlphaWolf24]

It is not opinion, it is FACT. He said "let us take an IN DEPTH look at the great teams jordan faced" then the next couple of sentences he talks about NY only having one hall of famer and a bunch of scrubs. That's not an IN DEPTH analysis, he didn't even post stats of those "scrubs" compared to Jordan's team or video analysis of why Jordan's team mates were better. If anyone was posting bullshit OPINIONS, its the video maker. Hell, with you getting MAD, it must be your vid. :roll:

U MAD? :roll: :roll: :roll:


Nope not my vid....I already used similar footage last year on my videos....

"In depth" he posted many different stats....and backed it with Video....and to anyone who watched the NBA in the early 90's.....you would know the Knicks were One Good player followed by a bunch of hacks....

John starks was bagging Groceries while trying to workout with CBA/NBA Teams....


where are all your videos???...with in depth analysis??..at least he made a great video and gave plenty of stats and facts.....you did nothing except give your horrible opinion....

with zero insight or analysis...

[D-Wade316]

Wade is practically a mirror image of Jordan and he seems to do quite well.

But Jordan was a better slasher (although IMO Wade is one of the all time great slashers), better shooter, better post up game, better finisher at the rim, better defender (both man and help), taller, jumped higher, more explosive, perhaps stronger (Wade is pretty strong), etc etc.....

And considering the ticky tack fouls they call in today's game, I see no problem Jordan getting to the line 10 times a game season after season, which BTW he has only done ONCE in his career and that was in 87 when slashing was the main basis of his game.

Poor man's Joe Johnson? Serious? .....POOR MAN'S????

FAIL dude.
:applause:

Wade is the closest we had ever seen to Jordan.

[Big#50]

He is only overrated by the people that have him as a clear cut GOAT. A lot of people impacted a bball game as much as him, some even more.

[KingLeBronJames]

LeBRON > MICHAEL JORDAN, KOBE BRYANT, MAGIC JOHNSON, LARRY BIRD, KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR, WILT CHAMBERLAIN, BILL RUSSELL, JERRY WEST, ELGIN BAYLOR, etc.

[Doctor Rivers]

Wade>LeBRON > MICHAEL JORDAN, KOBE BRYANT, MAGIC JOHNSON, LARRY BIRD, KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR, WILT CHAMBERLAIN, BILL RUSSELL, JERRY WEST, ELGIN BAYLOR, etc.

fixed

[Asukal]

Nope not my vid....I already used similar footage last year on my videos....

"In depth" he posted many different stats....and backed it with Video....and to anyone who watched the NBA in the early 90's.....you would know the Knicks were One Good player followed by a bunch of hacks....

John starks was bagging Groceries while trying to workout with CBA/NBA Teams....


where are all your videos???...with in depth analysis??..at least he made a great video and gave plenty of stats and facts.....you did nothing except give your horrible opinion....

with zero insight or analysis...

I don't need to make videos to prove anything, I believe Jordan is the GOAT, I'll leave it at that. Merkin makes excellent points but they have been debunked before, he presents nothing new to the discussion.

Yes you are mad as hell! :roll: :roll: :roll:

[RRR3]

LeBron might have 5 regular season wins over Kobe, but Kobe's got 5 rings over LeBron. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :oldlol:
When did Kobe play LeBron in the finals? :confusedshrug: I must have missed it. :lol LeBron would have embarassed him. Kobe=Poor man's Monta Ellis.

[LAClipsFan33]

LOL @ this petty highlight tape of what if and injury excuses

[NBASTATMAN]

He is only overrated by the people that have him as a clear cut GOAT. A lot of people impacted a bball game as much as him, some even more.


I agree he does become overrated when people annoint him as the clear cut GOAT...But I will say that no player since he played is on his level.. Kareem, Wilt, Russell are up their with MJ.. iMO

[ukplayer4]

:roll: at this retard, hes also deleting and blocking anyone that wants to debate with him why he has twisted and skewed, not to mention downright lied about some of his so called "facts"

the usual alpha wolf esque dementia is present here.

[AlphaWolf24]

:roll: at this retard, hes also deleting and blocking anyone that wants to debate with him why he has twisted and skewed, not to mention downright lied about some of his so called "facts"

the usual alpha wolf esque dementia is present here.


Come on now....I have only ever banned 1 person from my Channel...

and that was only because he wasn't even talking about Hoop....he was just typing ******!.....******!.....over and over...

If people want to say whatever they want I don't care...I'll Talk Hoop with who ever...and I'll have fun doing it.

I don't care about make believe subsciptions and popularity contests.....nor do I care about Imaginary "rep" on the interwebz....It has no influence on my understanding of the game I love...

I'll talk hoop with anyone..and i respect anyone who does the same...



I do kinda wonder why people don't let other folks comment:confusedshrug: ....:cheers:...kinda lame

[Legends66NBA7]

:roll: at this retard, hes also deleting and blocking anyone that wants to debate with him why he has twisted and skewed, not to mention downright lied about some of his so called "facts"

the usual alpha wolf esque dementia is present here.

I said only 2 comments on his channel.

All I said was "hey guys, he's either trolling or he's trying to one up Larry Bird"

He then says "You should know with your Jocker Agenda"

And I'm like "Lmao, what agenda ? Jordan isn't my favourite player. He's not my hero, idol, or god. I know he's not overrated though. I cannot be trolled on this good sir. I like your Larry Bird videos, but your way off on this. Have a good night."

He then proceeds to delete my comments and block me :oldlol: :cheers: :pimp:

[KevinNYC]

Part 1; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53dn_D6FWBk&feature=feedu

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5oCGz32_Zg&feature=feedu

I watched a ton of Merkin Muffly's videos, nostalgia for '80s basketball is what brought me to this site, but the guy has an agenda.

What did Bird say about Jordan? Well, the night he had 63 points (http://www.thegrio.com/sports/god-disguised-as-michael-jordan-the-63-point-game-turns-25.php), he said "That was God disguised as Michael Jordan."


One other thing to consider. It's possible to be the GREATEST OF ALL TIME and be overrated.

[colts19]

There are about six or seven players that have a claim as GOAT. It just depends on how you define what GOAT is.

Bill Russell, GOAT, because he is the greatest winner ever.

Magic, GOAT, because he could do more things to make any team great than anyone who ever played.

Bird, GOAT, because from 81-87, had the highest peak of any all around player ever.

Wilt or Shaq, GOAT, because they were dominate.

MJ, GOAT, because he was the most complete offense and defensive player ever.

KAJ, GOAT, played at a GOAT level longer than any other player.

So it just depends on what your looking for.

[97 bulls]

Some of the stuff he said in there is very true. Jordan making scottie pippen is an insult. And a rediculous notion. He won with the best talent in the league. But the same holds true for bird, magic and whoever else you want to use.

But most of his points are really looking at it from a very biased pov. So he really isn't telling the whole story.

Expansion
Its true that the league added 6 teams from 88 to 96. But what about the expansion before 88? The league added 5 teams over the course of 7 years when they added the 4 aba teams and the mavs in 83 I believe. Didn't that dilute the talent pool?

And why didn't the the showtime lakers win 70 in 88 or 89? The league added 4 teams those two years.

Injuries
I just can't understand why the bulls are always the only team that geets penalized for beating injured teams. Especially when countless time you read celtics fans say that the celts were injured in 87. The sixers beat the lakers in 83 without worthy, the pistons and lakers took turns beating each other while injured, and the celtics in 86 beat the bucks in the ecf with an injured sidney moncrief. Not to mention the sixers didn't have moses malone playing at center the year the laker beat them. None of the all-time great teams really beat another all-time great team. And if they did, it was in name only.

Id love to debate this with some of you and have tried. But I assume you guys are scared of the truth.

[97 bulls]

There are about six or seven players that have a claim as GOAT. It just depends on how you define what GOAT is.

Bill Russell, GOAT, because he is the greatest winner ever.

Magic, GOAT, because he could do more things to make any team great than anyone who ever played.

Bird, GOAT, because from 81-87, had the highest peak of any all around player ever.

Wilt or Shaq, GOAT, because they were dominate.

MJ, GOAT, because he was the most complete offense and defensive player ever.

KAJ, GOAT, played at a GOAT level longer than any other player.

So it just depends on what your looking for.
But jordan is a mixture of those things. Jordan has no shortcommings when it comes to the prerequisites. He's the best combination of winning, records, stats, longevity, accolades, offense, work ethic, defense, showman ship, and charisma. All those other players fall short in some way.

Like someone else said, if jordan isn't the greatest ever, what didn't he do that made him fall short?

Jabaar lacks charisma
Magic lacks defense
Bird lacks the longevity
Russell lacks the offense
Wilt lacks the winning
Kobe lacks the accolades
Shaq lacks the work ethic

Jordan has all those things.

[catch24]

But jordan is a mixture of those things. Jordan has no shortcommings when it comes to the prerequisites. He's the best combination of winning, records, stats, longevity, accolades, offense, work ethic, defense, showman ship, and charisma. All those other players fall short in some way.

Like someone else said, if jordan isn't the greatest ever, what didn't he do that made him fall short?

Jabaar lacks charisma
Magic lacks defense
Bird lacks the longevity
Russell lacks the offense
Wilt lacks the winning
Kobe lacks the accolades
Shaq lacks the work ethic

Jordan has all those things.

I would say the consistency too. This is a solid counter-argument. You're pretty much 100% spot on.

[pauk]

Michael Jordan is Overrated (Videos by MerkinMuffly)

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/gif/c8926c82475257640ece4ff0228df61224dcaf22.gif

[OldSchoolBBall]

Some of the stuff he said in there is very true. Jordan making scottie pippen is an insult. And a rediculous notion. He won with the best talent in the league.

The first three-peat Bulls were not the most talented team in the league. Get real.

During the second three-peat they were more talented relative to the league, but were also ancient by NBA standards.

[Legends66NBA7]

Some of the stuff he said in there is very true. Jordan making scottie pippen is an insult. And a rediculous notion. He won with the best talent in the league. But the same holds true for bird, magic and whoever else you want to use.

But most of his points are really looking at it from a very biased pov. So he really isn't telling the whole story.

Expansion
Its true that the league added 6 teams from 88 to 96. But what about the expansion before 88? The league added 5 teams over the course of 7 years when they added the 4 aba teams and the mavs in 83 I believe. Didn't that dilute the talent pool?

And why didn't the the showtime lakers win 70 in 88 or 89? The league added 4 teams those two years.

Injuries
I just can't understand why the bulls are always the only team that geets penalized for beating injured teams. Especially when countless time you read celtics fans say that the celts were injured in 87. The sixers beat the lakers in 83 without worthy, the pistons and lakers took turns beating each other while injured, and the celtics in 86 beat the bucks in the ecf with an injured sidney moncrief. Not to mention the sixers didn't have moses malone playing at center the year the laker beat them. None of the all-time great teams really beat another all-time great team. And if they did, it was in name only.

Id love to debate this with some of you and have tried. But I assume you guys are scared of the truth.

I agree with most of what you just said, though. Nobody is scared of the truth, I think it's just homerism that Muffly is implyying here to obviously 1 up Bird, if you have seen his youtube videos. Dude takes shot at Jordan, Magic, Kobe, and LeBron. Can't reason with someone like that.

[Legends66NBA7]

The first three-peat Bulls were not the most talented team in the league. Get real.

During the second three-peat they were more talented relative to the league, but were also ancient by NBA standards.

Who were the most talented teams during those 3 years ?

[detroitkid816]

But jordan is a mixture of those things. Jordan has no shortcommings when it comes to the prerequisites. He's the best combination of winning, records, stats, longevity, accolades, offense, work ethic, defense, showman ship, and charisma. All those other players fall short in some way.

Like someone else said, if jordan isn't the greatest ever, what didn't he do that made him fall short?

Jabaar lacks charisma
Magic lacks defense
Bird lacks the longevity
Russell lacks the offense
Wilt lacks the winning
Kobe lacks the accolades
Shaq lacks the work ethic

Jordan has all those things.
come on dude...charisma? how did that affect his impact on games exactly? I understand your angle, but that's a weak point.

[Legends66NBA7]

come on dude...charisma? how did that affect his impact on games exactly? I understand your angle, but that's a weak point.

I agree. But that's the media angle. Popularity is an issue, when it shouldn't be.

[AlphaWolf24]

The first three-peat Bulls were not the most talented team in the league. Get real.

During the second three-peat they were more talented relative to the league, but were also ancient by NBA standards.


2 top 5 player in the Leage with 2 other allstar's.....yes they were.

Jordan stans are silly




next

[97 bulls]

The first three-peat Bulls were not the most talented team in the league. Get real.

During the second three-peat they were more talented relative to the league, but were also ancient by NBA standards.
However you want to spin it. They were pretty succesful without jordan. And the age thing holds no weight. The only "old" players were rodman and I guess you could say jordan. But jordan did have 2 years of rest and rodman came into the league at 25 and didn't get staters minutes until 90.. not to mention phil jackson called him the best athlete he's coached.

Maybe if you would be more willing to acknowledge what the other players were able to do as bulls, jordan would be regarded in a better light. Because the truth is the bulls won and lost as a team

[jlip]

I watched a ton of Merkin Muffly's videos, nostalgia for '80s basketball is what brought me to this site, but the guy has an agenda.

What did Bird say about Jordan? Well, the night he had 63 points (http://www.thegrio.com/sports/god-disguised-as-michael-jordan-the-63-point-game-turns-25.php), he said "That was God disguised as Michael Jordan."


One other thing to consider. It's possible to be the GREATEST OF ALL TIME and be overrated.

@ the bolded part. So true. It's possible to be GOAT without being treated as an infalliable player who had no shortcomings, never made any mistakes on the court, and never had to rely on teammates to help you out.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Who were the most talented teams during those 3 years ?

The '92 and '93 Cavs, the '93 and possibly '92 Knicks, the '91 Pistons, the '92 Blazers, and the '93 Suns all were more talented than Chicago. Chicago's talent, especially during the first three-peat, gets MASSIVELY overrated around here. Jordan carried that team. They had Pippen, who was a great player, and Grant, who was a 13 pt/9.5 reb good player during the three-peat (but you'd think he was a 19/11 PF who created his own offense the way people talk about him) and role players.

Even also-ran teams like the early 90's Sonics and '93 Warriors had more talent than the Bulls had - Seattle had Payton, Kemp, McMillan, McKey, Pierce, Benoit Benjamin, Eddie Johnson, Michael Cage etc. for instance.

The notion that the Bulls had superior talent during the first three-peat in particular is revisionist history foisted on us by some posters on this board who shall remain nameless. No less an authority than Jerry West said in 1993 that the Bulls, while a good team, were not a perfect team and that Jordan carried that team. Jordan averaged like 34/7/7/50+% FG during the playoffs over the three-peat - if the Bulls were that talented, he wouldn't have had to do that, but he did.

[OldSchoolBBall]

2 top 5 player in the Leage with 2 other allstar's.....yes they were.

Jordan stans are silly




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lmao @ "2 other all stars." BJ was perhaps the worst selection in history (14 pts/4 ast is an all star? :oldlol: ) and Grant wasn't much better as a selection. The weakest all-star game in history perhaps, btw.

Pippen was also not a top 5 player in any season during the three-peat.

1991 - MJ, Magic, DRob, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Drexler, Mullin, and KJ were all better (maybe others too, like Daughtery - Pippen didn't even make All-NBA third team this season)

1992 - MJ, Drexler, Ewing, Hakeem, Barkley, DRob, Malone were all better

1993 - MJ, Shaq, Malone, DRob, Ewing, Hakeem, Barkley were all better

[Nevaeh]

But jordan is a mixture of those things. Jordan has no shortcommings when it comes to the prerequisites. He's the best combination of winning, records, stats, longevity, accolades, offense, work ethic, defense, showman ship, and charisma. All those other players fall short in some way.

Like someone else said, if jordan isn't the greatest ever, what didn't he do that made him fall short?

Jabaar lacks charisma
Magic lacks defense
Bird lacks the longevity
Russell lacks the offense
Wilt lacks the winning
Kobe lacks the B-Ball IQ
Shaq lacks the work ethic

Jordan has all those things.

The only thing I would change. Also add that Kobe wasn't a Franchise Player (Team Leader) like the other guys listed until his 8th year in the league. MJ was also the best Player on his team for his entire career.

[Jacks3]

2 top 5 player in the Leage with 2 other allstar's.....yes they were.

Jordan stans are silly




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Yup. That team was stacked.

[colts19]

But jordan is a mixture of those things. Jordan has no shortcommings when it comes to the prerequisites. He's the best combination of winning, records, stats, longevity, accolades, offense, work ethic, defense, showman ship, and charisma. All those other players fall short in some way.

Like someone else said, if jordan isn't the greatest ever, what didn't he do that made him fall short?

Jabaar lacks charisma
Magic lacks defense
Bird lacks the longevity
Russell lacks the offense
Wilt lacks the winning
Kobe lacks the accolades
Shaq lacks the work ethic

Jordan has all those things.
Lacks charisma, I guess that's one of the things you look for but WOW, just WOW. Also the thing he may have done that made him fall short was, he was the only player on my list that had 5 losing seasons. If your going to use a lack of charisma the I guess you can also use something basketball related:
Jordan lacks ability to make team better, 5 losing seasons.

[KevinNYC]

Lacks charisma, I guess that's one of the things you look for but WOW, just WOW. Also the thing he may have done that made him fall short was, he was the only player on my list that had 5 losing seasons. If your going to use a lack of charisma the I guess you can also use something basketball related:
Jordan lacks ability to make team better, 5 losing seasons.

Perhaps he meant leadership. I would argue that is one quality that Bill Russell has in his claim to be GOAT. Kareem was kind of a loner

[97 bulls]

The only thing I would change. Also add that Kobe wasn't a Franchise Player (Team Leader) like the other guys listed until his 8th year in the league. MJ was also the best Player on his team for his entire career.
Then you'd have to apply that same logic to amgic and jabaar. Magic wasn't the best player during the lakers first 2 championships. And jabaar was well past his prime in the mid and late 80s. I give the best players on the team just about equal credit. Especially when its obvious the team doesn't win without them

[Smoke117]

Jordan is overrated. When are you made out to be infallible and perfect you are overrated. When you are made out to be some kind of deity, you are overrated. He's definitely overrated.

[97 bulls]

Perhaps he meant leadership. I would argue that is one quality that Bill Russell has in his claim to be GOAT. Kareem was kind of a loner
That's exactly it. Kareem wanted to play and go home. He didn't want to answer to the media. Aand that can also take a toll on certain players and thus effect their play. Its one of the things that made magic great

[Da_Realist]

Jordan lacks ability to make team better, 5 losing seasons.

3 losing seasons, technically. The Bulls went 9-9 in the 85/86 season with him on the court. The Wizards went 30-30 in the 01/02 season with him on the court.

As for the other seasons... It's not like he lost with winning teams.

The 1984-85 Bulls won 27 games the year before he got there. Then they win 38 his first year. +11 games

The Bulls were 21-43 (27 win pace) when Jordan was out during the 86 season. They won 40 games the next season. +13 games

The 2000-01 Wizards won 19 games before he got there. They go 30-30 with MJ in lineup and 7-15 when he's out with a knee injury.

The Wizards go 37-45 his last season.

In all these seasons, he really had nothing to work with. And in the last two, he was around 40 years old! Compare that to 1998 when at age 34/35 he led the Bulls to a 24-11 without Pippen. That's a 56 win pace when he should have been too old to carry that kind of burden.

[illinoisreppa20]

lol nvm

[Nevaeh]

Jordan is overrated. When are you made out to be infallible and perfect you are overrated. When you are made out to be some kind of deity, you are overrated. He's definitely overrated.

No, actually that would be Kobe on ISH. Jordan fans have no problem admitting his faults, or bringing up when he's come up short. Kobe fans will put him on a pedestal, even after he was just swept without even putting up a fight, coming off of a championship.

Dude's not even an efficient volume scorer, yet we have to constantly hear how he's the Greatest Player Of His era, with only 1 MVP over a 15 year career. Now that's overrated.

[King24]

He's actually underrated. He was so good it was almost cartoonish. I don't think people who didn't watch him in his prime can grasp the idea that there was a player not only better than guys like Kobe/Wade/LeBron, but much better...so naturally they have to look to tear him down. It sucks but that's just the way it is.

[Da_Realist]

He's actually underrated. He was so good it was almost cartoonish. I don't think people who didn't watch him in his prime can grasp the idea that there was a player not only better than guys like Kobe/Wade/LeBron, but much better...so naturally they have to look to tear him down. It sucks but that's just the way it is.

:pimp:

[Legends66NBA7]

No, actually that would be Kobe on ISH. Jordan fans have no problem admitting his faults, or bringing up when he's come up short. Kobe fans will put him on a pedestal, even after he was just swept without even putting up a fight, coming off of a championship.

Dude's not even an efficient volume scorer, yet we have to constantly hear how he's the Greatest Player Of His era, with only 1 MVP over a 15 year career. Now that's overrated.

+1.

[Round Mound]

lmao @ "2 other all stars." BJ was perhaps the worst selection in history (14 pts/4 ast is an all star? :oldlol: ) and Grant wasn't much better as a selection. The weakest all-star game in history perhaps, btw.

Pippen was also not a top 5 player in any season during the three-peat.

1991 - MJ, Magic, DRob, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Drexler, Mullin, and KJ were all better (maybe others too, like Daughtery - Pippen didn't even make All-NBA third team this season)

1992 - MJ, Drexler, Ewing, Hakeem, Barkley, DRob, Malone were all better

1993 - MJ, Shaq, Malone, DRob, Ewing, Hakeem, Barkley were all better

The only Players that where close to as good as MJ was the 1987-1993 Barkley and the 1994-95 Hakeem.

The rest where a notch below these 3

[97 bulls]

The '92 and '93 Cavs, the '93 and possibly '92 Knicks, the '91 Pistons, the '92 Blazers, and the '93 Suns all were more talented than Chicago. Chicago's talent, especially during the first three-peat, gets MASSIVELY overrated around here. Jordan carried that team. They had Pippen, who was a great player, and Grant, who was a 13 pt/9.5 reb good player during the three-peat (but you'd think he was a 19/11 PF who created his own offense the way people talk about him) and role players.

Even also-ran teams like the early 90's Sonics and '93 Warriors had more talent than the Bulls had - Seattle had Payton, Kemp, McMillan, McKey, Pierce, Benoit Benjamin, Eddie Johnson, Michael Cage etc. for instance.

The notion that the Bulls had superior talent during the first three-peat in particular is revisionist history foisted on us by some posters on this board who shall remain nameless. No less an authority than Jerry West said in 1993 that the Bulls, while a good team, were not a perfect team and that Jordan carried that team. Jordan averaged like 34/7/7/50+% FG during the playoffs over the three-peat - if the Bulls were that talented, he wouldn't have had to do that, but he did.
Jordan was gonna put of those offensive stats because he chose to not because he had to. And yes the bulls had the most talented team in the league when you factor in defense, iintagibles and coaching. The facts are there to support it too. We've seen what the bulls could do without jordan. They were damn good. A top 5 team and this can't be argued.

Its unfortunate that you take this stance. Because its jordan fans like you that overrate jordan that try to make it seem as if he was the soul reason for those first three championships. And thus make us look bad.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan was gonna put of those offensive stats because he chose to not because he had to.

Complete rubbish. The Bulls were an anemic offensive team aside from MJ compared to other teams of the era. lol @ the notion that MJ didn't have to do what he did in order for that team to win. Yeah, maybe if he didn't average what he did they still would have won, but series would have went on longer and victory wouldn't be certain. Jordan's playoff heroics were needed many times over. He averaged what he did because his team needed it and he had the ability to provide it. Period.

The combined ppg of the top 4 scorers after the #1 option for some other teams just in 1991 (I could do this for many more teams during the first three-peat):

Chicago: 49.0 ppg


Celtics: 67.6 ppg
Lakers: 60.6 ppg
Blazers: 59.3 ppg
Suns: 66.2 ppg
Spurs: 61.7 ppg
Cavs: 57.9 ppg
Pistons: 55.7 ppg
Sixers: 67.5 p pg
Hawks: 55.3 ppg

...notice a pattern yet? I could go on and on and on. The Bulls simply didn't have nearly the firepower outside of Jordan that other teams did outside of their superstar. To suggest that Jordan "didn't have to" do what he did in the playoffs is a JOKE to anyone who actually watched those Bulls routinely need Jordan to bail them out in the 4th quarters or in big games. Give me a fvcking BREAK dude.

[97 bulls]

Complete rubbish. The Bulls were an anemic offensive team aside from MJ compared to other teams of the era. lol @ the notion that MJ didn't have to do what he did in order for that team to win. Yeah, maybe if he didn't average what he did they still would have won, but series would have went on longer and victory wouldn't be certain. Jordan's playoff heroics were needed many times over. He averaged what he did because his team needed it and he had the ability to provide it. Period.

The combined ppg of the top 4 scorers after the #1 option for some other teams just in 1991 (I could do this for many more teams during the first three-peat):

Chicago: 49.0 ppg


Celtics: 67.6 ppg
Lakers: 60.6 ppg
Blazers: 59.3 ppg
Suns: 66.2 ppg
Spurs: 61.7 ppg
Cavs: 57.9 ppg
Pistons: 55.7 ppg
Sixers: 67.5 p pg
Hawks: 55.3 ppg

...notice a pattern yet? I could go on and on and on. The Bulls simply didn't have nearly the firepower outside of Jordan that other teams did outside of their superstar. To suggest that Jordan "didn't have to" do what he did in the playoffs is a JOKE to anyone who actually watched those Bulls routinely need Jordan to bail them out in the 4th quarters or in big games. Give me a fvcking BREAK dude.
You're proving my point. I said, he CHOSE to. Jordan also took the lions share of the bulls shots when compared to the teams you listed. And not because he had to. The bulls were just able to work around it. And I didn't just mention scoring. It was the bulls defense, intangibles as well as coaching.

Nice try though

[97 bulls]

I really wish you wouldn't post info on jordan old school. Cuz I constantly find myself having to refute your cult-like dogma. And even have to poke holes in jordans game. Like I said earlier, you make real jordan/bulls fans look bad.

[AlphaWolf24]

I really wish you wouldn't post info on jordan old school. Cuz I constantly find myself having to refute your cult-like dogma. And even have to poke holes in jordans game. Like I said earlier, you make real jordan/bulls fans look bad.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

97 Bulls = the realist n!kka here..

[OldSchoolBBall]

You're proving my point. I said, he CHOSE to. Jordan also took the lions share of the bulls shots when compared to the teams you listed. And not because he had to. The bulls were just able to work around it.

Complete bullshit. lmao @ you acting like MJ didn't have to do what he did in the playoffs for Chicago to win. Yes, some series they would have won if he averaged less, but you don't play basketball that way. The players that are capable of filling their teams' needs do so in order to win series as easily as possible. I bet you think that Shaq "didn't have to" average what he did from '00-'02 either, or KAJ in '71-'74 and '80 postseasons, right? GTFOH with that nonsense. :oldlol:

[Asukal]

You're proving my point. I said, he CHOSE to. Jordan also took the lions share of the bulls shots when compared to the teams you listed. And not because he had to. The bulls were just able to work around it. And I didn't just mention scoring. It was the bulls defense, intangibles as well as coaching.

Nice try though

Its probably true that if Jordan didn't carry the offense his team mates will get better offensive stats specifically on scoring but its also true that Jordan made it easier for them to work more on defense by carrying the offensive load. He didn't have to just as you said but that's what makes him the player that he is.

[AlphaWolf24]

Complete bullshit. lmao @ you acting like MJ didn't have to do what he did in the playoffs for Chicago to win. Yes, some series they would have won if he averaged less, but you don't play basketball that way. The players that are capable of filling their teams' needs do so in order to win series as easily as possible. I bet you think that Shaq "didn't have to" average what he did from '00-'02 either, or KAJ in '71-'74 and '80 postseasons, right? GTFOH with that nonsense. :oldlol:


actually he didn't....94' season proved that Jordan was not that valuable to his teams overall success....his most valuable attribute to his team was his ability to close games(pretty much his ability to create and get his shot whenever he needed)...

Other then that....his game was a wash ....in fact without Jordan the Bull's overall defense and offense improved...

oops...silly me......just watch the video, it explains everything.




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[97 bulls]

Complete bullshit. lmao @ you acting like MJ didn't have to do what he did in the playoffs for Chicago to win. Yes, some series they would have won if he averaged less, but you don't play basketball that way. The players that are capable of filling their teams' needs do so in order to win series as easily as possible. I bet you think that Shaq "didn't have to" average what he did from '00-'02 either, or KAJ in '71-'74 and '80 postseasons, right? GTFOH with that nonsense. :oldlol:
Lol in reference to playing team basketball "you don't play basketball that way". What kind of dumb shit is this? Well how do you play team basketball? Sit back and watch one guy go 1 on 5? And then when the game is over an they lose, you say well, he did his job?


In 93, jordan avg 26 shots a game. The bulls as a team avg 88 shots. Thats damn near 40% of the teams fg attempts. And that's not counting shots on fouls. What made the bulls great is that just about everyone outside of jordan, didn't need the ball to be effective. I don't even see why this is even an argument. They won 55 games without jordan. And without a viable replacement.

[97 bulls]

Its probably true that if Jordan didn't carry the offense his team mates will get better offensive stats specifically on scoring but its also true that Jordan made it easier for them to work more on defense by carrying the offensive load. He didn't have to just as you said but that's what makes him the player that he is.
Absolutely. They fed off each other. But what old school basketball is saying is a bold faced lie. And he knows it. We have the proof.

[Leviathon1121]

Going by this logic, Peyton Manning is without a shadow of a doubt, based on this one season alone, the greatest NFL player in the history of the game. Shouldn't even be an argument.

Yet, you are going to find many more people arguing it then agreeing with it, because it is just stupid logic.

[Nevaeh]

actually he didn't....94' season proved that Jordan was not that valuable to his teams overall success....his most valuable attribute to his team was his ability to close games(pretty much his ability to create and get his shot whenever he needed)...

Other then that....his game was a wash ....in fact without Jordan the Bull's overall defense and offense improved...

oops...silly me......just watch the video, it explains everything.




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Dude, The Bulls lost in the 2nd friggin Round that year, in case you forgot. With MJ, they won a Championship and He (nobody else) was voted Finals MVP. The 94 Bulls argument doesn't hold much weight if they still choked at getting to the Finals.

*His "Game" was the difference between a Championship and a 2nd round exit, you clown :hammerhead:

[97 bulls]

Going by this logic, Peyton Manning is without a shadow of a doubt, based on this one season alone, the greatest NFL player in the history of the game. Shouldn't even be an argument.

Yet, you are going to find many more people arguing it then agreeing with it, because it is just stupid logic.
What logic? Cuz the colts suck without him? If that's it, different scenario. The colts offense is built and largely dependant on manning. And that's how they win.

The bulls won mainly on defense.

[Asukal]

Dude, The Bulls lost in the 2nd friggin Round that year, in case you forgot. With MJ, they won a Championship and He (nobody else) was voted Finals MVP. The 94 Bulls argument doesn't hold much weight if they still choked at getting to the Finals.

*His "Game" was the difference between a Championship and a 2nd round exit, you clown :hammerhead:

Did you expect anything else to come out from alpha's mouth? He'd say anything to downplay Jordan and 1up Kobe. FACT. :lol

[Leviathon1121]

What logic? Cuz the colts suck without him? If that's it, different scenario. The colts offense is built and largely dependant on manning. And that's how they win.

The bulls won mainly on defense.

So, you are admitting that the Bulls were not built around Jordan, and yet, you still hold 94 against Jordan...interesting.

[97 bulls]

Dude, The Bulls lost in the 2nd friggin Round that year, in case you forgot. With MJ, they won a Championship and He (nobody else) was voted Finals MVP. The 94 Bulls argument doesn't hold much weight if they still choked at getting to the Finals.

*His "Game" was the difference between a Championship and a 2nd round exit, you clown :hammerhead:
But how did they choke? Were they even favored to beat the knicks?

And I believe you brought this up before. They lost to the same team in 7 games, that lost to the eventual champs in 7. A game the knicks could've easily won had starks not shot so bad. So the difference between the rockets and bulls isn't that far off.

Your just looking at the way they were seeded.

[NugzHeat3]

Lol in reference to playing team basketball "you don't play basketball that way". What kind of dumb shit is this? Well how do you play team basketball? Sit back and watch one guy go 1 on 5? And then when the game is over an they lose, you say well, he did his job?


In 93, jordan avg 26 shots a game. The bulls as a team avg 88 shots. Thats damn near 40% of the teams fg attempts. And that's not counting shots on fouls. What made the bulls great is that just about everyone outside of jordan, didn't need the ball to be effective. I don't even see why this is even an argument. They won 55 games without jordan. And without a viable replacement.
Nope.

Nice try though.

[Nevaeh]

But how did they choke? Were they even favored to beat the knicks?

And I believe you brought this up before. They lost to the same team in 7 games, that lost to the eventual champs in 7. A game the knicks could've easily won had starks not shot so bad. So the difference between the rockets and bulls isn't that far off.

Your just looking at the way they were seeded.

They "choked" based on the fact that peeps are making Jordan not being on the team that year a non-factor to their overall success. "They only lost 2 extra games that year", some will say, conveniently leaving out the "Championship" and Finals MVP part.

With this logic, I could say the Lakers were only a few games away from the Finals this past season, had they won more games. Well, no sh!t.

*I think you already know the difference based on my Alpha reply. You're better than this 97 Bulls.

[NugzHeat3]

The '92 and '93 Cavs, the '93 and possibly '92 Knicks, the '91 Pistons, the '92 Blazers, and the '93 Suns all were more talented than Chicago. Chicago's talent, especially during the first three-peat, gets MASSIVELY overrated around here. Jordan carried that team. They had Pippen, who was a great player, and Grant, who was a 13 pt/9.5 reb good player during the three-peat (but you'd think he was a 19/11 PF who created his own offense the way people talk about him) and role players.

Even also-ran teams like the early 90's Sonics and '93 Warriors had more talent than the Bulls had - Seattle had Payton, Kemp, McMillan, McKey, Pierce, Benoit Benjamin, Eddie Johnson, Michael Cage etc. for instance.

The notion that the Bulls had superior talent during the first three-peat in particular is revisionist history foisted on us by some posters on this board who shall remain nameless. No less an authority than Jerry West said in 1993 that the Bulls, while a good team, were not a perfect team and that Jordan carried that team. Jordan averaged like 34/7/7/50+% FG during the playoffs over the three-peat - if the Bulls were that talented, he wouldn't have had to do that, but he did.
Agreed on Bulls being less talented than all those teams but you aren't considering that talent doesn't always translate to success no matter what the situation is.

2011 Heat vs Mavs is a clear example.

I'd say the Bulls were better than the 1991 Pistons, seriously that team was running on life support with all the injuries they had especially in Isiah's case who was playing with an ankle and a wrist injury. Dumars had a toe injury.

The Pistons were flatout overmatched. Not saying they were going to make the series competitive because the Bulls would've killed them either way. But as it is, that team is better than the 1991 Pistons.

1993 Warriors? More talented but when you consider defense, mentality, approach to the game and coaching (Phil vs Nellie :oldlol:), its a massive edge to the Bulls.

But I'd agree on Jordan being the key difference maker against the Knicks, Blazers, the Suns and to a lesser extent, the Cavs.

[97 bulls]

So, you are admitting that the Bulls were not built around Jordan, and yet, you still hold 94 against Jordan...interesting.
I'm not admitting anything. And I'm definatly not indicting jordan based on 94. All I'm saying is how can you or anyone else say the bulls werent good without jordan when they were contending for a championship without him?

The colts have more problems that just manning.

[Da_Realist]

I thought for sure I posted a clip showing the Lakers were favored over the Bulls before they played in the 91 Finals but I can't find it...so I may not have posted it...and I don't feel like going though a bunch of games to find it :(

Anyway, Lakers were favored in 91, Knicks were favored in 93 and more than a few favored the Suns in the Finals that same year. The Bulls were favored in every series in 92 but it wouldn't have been a huge surprise to anyone at the time if Portland had gotten them in the Finals.

It only looks lopsided in retrospect.

[ukplayer4]

Come on now....I have only ever banned 1 person from my Channel...

and that was only because he wasn't even talking about Hoop....he was just typing ******!.....******!.....over and over...

If people want to say whatever they want I don't care...I'll Talk Hoop with who ever...and I'll have fun doing it.

I don't care about make believe subsciptions and popularity contests.....nor do I care about Imaginary "rep" on the interwebz....It has no influence on my understanding of the game I love...

I'll talk hoop with anyone..and i respect anyone who does the same...



I do kinda wonder why people don't let other folks comment:confusedshrug: ....:cheers:...kinda lame


you blocked me and someone else in this thread has already said you blocked them.

thats about what id expect from you. if id have known this video was made by you i wouldnt have commented, you are way to far gone to have any kind of debate with...

[NugzHeat3]

I'm not admitting anything. And I'm definatly not indicting jordan based on 94. All I'm saying is how can you or anyone else say the bulls werent good without jordan when they were contending for a championship without him?

The colts have more problems that just manning.
Lets get real here, the Bulls were not contending for anything that year. That series with NYK doesn't even go 7 if not for Derek Harper being suspended for that brawl with JoJo English.

Harper was a integral piece to that Knicks squad. He was unreal in the finals playing pressure defense, handchecking the shit out of Kenny Smith and hitting clutch shots. He's the biggest reason they took away handchecking from the foul line right after that year. Who is JoJo English? :oldlol:

This whole thing of "Bulls winning 55 games w/o Jordan" is played out. Nobody took that team seriously after Jordan retired. They were underdogs throughout the year which served as motivation because everyone had counted them out and that's how they were able to win that many games. They didn't need to develop chemistry after all the years they had spent as a team.

A lot easier to win as the underdog when you don't have teams gunning for you. The 1994 Rockets found that out when they started the season 22-1 and then cooled down after they got a lot of talk as the best team. Its what I mean when I saw underdogs aren't taken as seriously.

But in the playoffs, the 1994 Bulls weren't feared. I can tell you that much. This whole "XYZ" doesn't work. You should know better than that.

Why should I believe Chicago gets past Indiana?

[catch24]

you blocked me and someone else in this thread has already said you blocked them.

thats about what id expect from you. if id have known this video was made by you i wouldnt have commented, you are way to far gone to have any kind of debate with...

Alphawolf is MerkinMuffly? :wtf:

[NugzHeat3]

I thought for sure I posted a clip showing the Lakers were favored over the Bulls before they played in the 91 Finals but I can't find it...so I may not have posted it...and I don't feel like going though a bunch of games to find it :(

Anyway, Lakers were favored in 91, Knicks were favored in 93 and more than a few favored the Suns in the Finals that same year. The Bulls were favored in every series in 92 but it wouldn't have been a huge surprise to anyone at the time if Portland had gotten them in the Finals.

It only looks lopsided in retrospect.

True.

Pay-Per-View - Boston Globe - Jun 5, 1991

CHICAGO -- Suddenly, the Lakers are everybody's favorite to win the NBA title, a notion that amuses assistant general manager Mitch Kupchak.

[Da_Realist]

Agreed on Bulls being less talented than all those teams but you aren't considering that talent doesn't always translate to success no matter what the situation is.

There is a thing called intangibles that comes into play. That's why I don't like the position by position comparison when judging teams.

Also, I don't care how many Hall of Famers the Knicks had in 92 and 93, they were a good team not a one trick pony. They were built especially to beat the Bulls (a HOF center surrounded by 2 or 3 bruising, physical power forwards, a point guard and a defensive minded SG that could shoot).

Ewing was Ewing.

2 or 3 PF's -- Oakley, Mason and some thugs off the bench. Defense and rebounding were their specialty

SF that might as well have been PF -- X Man. The biggest reason the Knicks pushed the Bulls to 7 games in 92. He pushed Pippen around all series long.

Athletic and defensive minded SG -- Wilkins (long and athletic), Starks (played better defense on Jordan than anyone with the possible exception of Payton. Think about that.) Both made Jordan work on the defensive end too -- Wilkins with his slashing ability and Starks with his long range shooting.

PG -- Mark Jackson and Doc Rivers with Greg Anthony off the bench

On paper it looks like Ewing and a bunch of scrubs but on the court, they were something more than that. Hustle, defense and rebounding with an inside out game would give any team problems. The 92 or 93 Knicks were better than a lot of teams the Celtics beat in the 80's. In fact, the 84 Knicks took the Celtics to 7 games. A much worse Knicks team overcame a 2-0 deficit to beat the Celtics in five in the first round of 1990...then was crushed in 3 games to the Bulls in 1991.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Agreed on Bulls being less talented than all those teams but you aren't considering that talent doesn't always translate to success no matter what the situation is.

I agree. I do know the Bulls were a BETTER team for a variety of reasons (even looking past the fact that, well, they WON), but to say that they were the most TALENTED team in the league is just DUMB. Not even close.

There's a difference between saying a team is the most talented team and saying that they're the best team. As you said, talent doesn't always translate to success. But when people act like MJ had overwhelming talent, particularly during the first three-peat, it irks me, because it's simply false.

[NugzHeat3]

There is a thing called intangibles that comes into play. That's why I don't like the position by position comparison when judging teams.

Also, I don't care how many Hall of Famers the Knicks had in 92 and 93, they were a good team not a one trick pony. They were built especially to beat the Bulls (a HOF center surrounded by 2 or 3 bruising, physical power forwards, a point guard and a defensive minded SG that could shoot).

Ewing was Ewing.

2 or 3 PF's -- Oakley, Mason and some thugs off the bench. Defense and rebounding were their specialty

SF that might as well have been PF -- X Man. The biggest reason the Knicks pushed the Bulls to 7 games in 92. He pushed Pippen around all series long.

Athletic and defensive minded SG -- Wilkins (long and athletic), Starks (played better defense on Jordan than anyone with the possible exception of Payton. Think about that.) Both made Jordan work on the defensive end too -- Wilkins with his slashing ability and Starks with his long range shooting.

PG -- Mark Jackson and Doc Rivers with Greg Anthony off the bench

On paper it looks like Ewing and a bunch of scrubs but on the court, they were something more than that. Hustle, defense and rebounding with an inside out game would give any team problems. The 92 or 93 Knicks were better than a lot of teams the Celtics beat in the 80's. In fact, the 84 Knicks took the Celtics to 7 games. A much worse Knicks team overcame a 2-0 deficit to beat the Celtics in five in the first round of 1990...then was crushed in 3 games to the Bulls in 1991.
Agreed. Good post.

Ewing was a beast in 1990 against the Celtics. He had a 50 pt game against them in the season too. If Ewing didn't have such a abrupt decline in athleticism (bad knees), that team could've taken the Bulls down. Always came up a little short in crunch time.

1990 Ewing on those 1992-95 Knicks and things get really interesting.

[97 bulls]

Lets get real here, the Bulls were not contending for anything that year. That series with NYK doesn't even go 7 if not for Derek Harper being suspended for that brawl with JoJo English.
!nd do you know how many teams have beaten teams missing key players? Its a part of sports. But as usual, the bulls only get partial credit right?

Harper was a integral piece to that Knicks squad. He was unreal in the finals playing pressure defense, handchecking the shit out of Kenny Smith and hitting clutch shots. He's the biggest reason they took away handchecking from the foul line right after that year. Who is JoJo English? :oldlol:

This whole thing of "Bulls winning 55 games w/o Jordan" is played out. Nobody took that team seriously after Jordan retired. They were underdogs throughout the year which served as motivation because everyone had counted them out and that's how they were able to win that many games. They didn't need to develop chemistry after all the years they had spent as a team.
this. Is a weak argument. You have no way of knowing how serious team played the bulls. And even if your pov is true. At some point the league had to start taking them serious cuz they were winning on a nightly basis.

A lot easier to win as the underdog when you don't have teams gunning for you. The 1994 Rockets found that out when they started the season 22-1 and then cooled down after they got a lot of talk as the best team. Its what I mean when I saw underdogs aren't taken as seriously.
that's one way to look at it. But neveah used the term "choke". That's not at all true. How can you choke when you weren't supposed to win in the first place?

But in the playoffs, the 1994 Bulls weren't feared. I can tell you that much. This whole "XYZ" doesn't work. You should know better than that.

Why should I believe Chicago gets past Indiana?
Well how do you know they couldn't get past indiana? Cuz it'll somehow look bad for jordan? I got news for you. It doesn't look bad for jordan it shows how great that bulls team really was. Like usual, it you jordan fans that come in here and start the attacks on jordans teammates.

And like I stated earlier, you guys are arguing the way the teams were seeded. Look at the early 00s. The lowly nets and sixers made iit to the championship. Did that mean they were better than the spurs or lakers or kings? That's what I mean by seeding. Your argument would hold more weight if the bulls lost to the knicks in a sweep. But they lost in 7 to the eventual ecf champs who in turn lost in 7 to the champs.

[Da_Realist]

I will say this (though with the caveat that I'm referring to youtube fans, not necessarily ISH fans)

Celtics fans are really smart but get dumb when talking about Jordan (with a few exceptions). They celebrate the team game, but then talk about how BIRD beat JORDAN. They love the dirty work, but won't recognize Jordan's defense, rebounding, hustle and "will" to do anything for a win. They complain that Jordan Jockers don't give enough credit to the rest of the Bulls, but BIRD made Mchale and Parrish hall of famers and single handily gave them 60 wins his first year.

In other words, they can't use their usual criteria to bash Jordan cause they know damn well he was as much of a winner as Bird was. Using their head to head criteria, then Magic is better than Bird...and Jordan is better than Magic. Shit, Isiah is better than both Bird and Jordan using that asinine criteria.

Bird had not only McHale and Parrish clogging the middle, but DJ was considered one of the best perimeter defenders of all time as well as firepower off the bench. So when these zealot Celtics fans talk about head to head matchups, they don't mention how the Celtics guarded MJ with perennial DPOY candidate Dennis Johnson backed up with long armed McHale (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5GLmldfpXA) and any other help they could send vs Bird being guarded by DAVE CORZINE or BRAD SELLERS.

[NugzHeat3]

Well how do you know they couldn't get past indiana? Cuz it'll somehow look bad for jordan? I got news for you. It doesn't look bad for jordan it shows how great that bulls team really was. Like usual, it you jordan fans that come in here and start the attacks on jordans teammates.

And like I stated earlier, you guys are arguing the way the teams were seeded. Look at the early 00s. The lowly nets and sixers made iit to the championship. Did that mean they were better than the spurs or lakers or kings? That's what I mean by seeding. Your argument would hold more weight if the bulls lost to the knicks in a sweep. But they lost in 7 to the eventual ecf champs who in turn lost in 7 to the champs.
:oldlol: I'm not a Jordan fan. I call it like it is. If I see someone overrating Jordan, I'll call them out.

I don't have a particular bias either way.

I'm not arguing the way teams were seeded. You think since Chicago lost to NYK in 7 and since NYK lost to Houston in 7, then Chicago must've also posed a formidable match up for Houston.

It doesn't work out that way. The 2008 Hawks took Boston to 7. Boston beat LA in 6 (destroyed them in the closeout). Do you think the Hawks would beat the Lakers since they lasted longer against the Celtics?

Its highly flawed logic that can be backed up by several other examples.

I don't literally mean teams didn't take the Bulls seriously but you don't get up to play a team without Jordan as opposed to a team with him. Look at the Rockets example I provided with the way they started the season (22-1). They got a lot of coverage and talk early as the best team in the league but they cooled off when teams recognized that this was a team taking over the league. They ended up 58-24 despite little to no injury issues.

Its why people made a huge deal after those two losses against Denver and (forgot who) that the 72-10 Bulls had back to back. To take them down was considered a special accomplishment.

I don't agree they choked. They exceeded their expectations and they deserve credit for it. But there's context behind their success which is often ignored.

The East was weak as hell too for a variety of other reasons (not just Jordan's absence).

[Da_Realist]

:oldlol: I'm not a Jordan fan. I call it like it is. If I see someone overrating Jordan, I'll call them out.

I don't have a particular bias either way.

I'm not arguing the way teams were seeded. You think since Chicago lost to NYK in 7 and since NYK lost to Houston in 7, then Chicago must've also posed a formidable match up for Houston.

It doesn't work out that way. The 2008 Hawks took Boston to 7. Boston beat LA in 6 (destroyed them in the closeout). Do you think the Hawks would beat the Lakers since they lasted longer against the Celtics?

Its highly flawed logic that can be backed up by several other examples.

I don't literally mean teams didn't take the Bulls seriously but you don't get up to play a team without Jordan as opposed to a team with him. Look at the Rockets example I provided with the way they started the season (22-1). They got a lot of coverage and talk early as the best team in the league but they cooled off when teams recognized that this was a team taking over the league. They ended up 58-24 despite little to no injury issues.

Its why people made a huge deal after those two losses against Denver and (forgot who) that the 72-10 Bulls had back to back. To take them down was considered a special accomplishment.

I don't agree they choked. They exceeded their expectations and they deserve credit for it. But there's context behind their success which is often ignored.

The East was weak as hell too for a variety of other reasons (not just Jordan's absence).

Excellent post. And it was Phoenix that knocked off the Bulls in 96.

[NugzHeat3]

Excellent post. And it was Phoenix that knocked off the Bulls in 96.
:hammerhead: I remember that now. :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

There is a thing called intangibles that comes into play. That's why I don't like the position by position comparison when judging teams.

Also, I don't care how many Hall of Famers the Knicks had in 92 and 93, they were a good team not a one trick pony. They were built especially to beat the Bulls (a HOF center surrounded by 2 or 3 bruising, physical power forwards, a point guard and a defensive minded SG that could shoot).

Ewing was Ewing.

2 or 3 PF's -- Oakley, Mason and some thugs off the bench. Defense and rebounding were their specialty

SF that might as well have been PF -- X Man. The biggest reason the Knicks pushed the Bulls to 7 games in 92. He pushed Pippen around all series long.

Athletic and defensive minded SG -- Wilkins (long and athletic), Starks (played better defense on Jordan than anyone with the possible exception of Payton. Think about that.) Both made Jordan work on the defensive end too -- Wilkins with his slashing ability and Starks with his long range shooting.

PG -- Mark Jackson and Doc Rivers with Greg Anthony off the bench

On paper it looks like Ewing and a bunch of scrubs but on the court, they were something more than that. Hustle, defense and rebounding with an inside out game would give any team problems. The 92 or 93 Knicks were better than a lot of teams the Celtics beat in the 80's. In fact, the 84 Knicks took the Celtics to 7 games. A much worse Knicks team overcame a 2-0 deficit to beat the Celtics in five in the first round of 1990...then was crushed in 3 games to the Bulls in 1991.
The knicks were a great team. And I'm glad jackson got acknowledged. Great pot darealist. Jackson is I believes 2nd all-time in assists and will probably be in the hall of fame. That would give the knicks two hofers along with mcdaniel and oakley. And a solid bench and pat riley as their coach

[97 bulls]

:oldlol: I'm not a Jordan fan. I call it like it is. If I see someone overrating Jordan, I'll call them out.

I don't have a particular bias either way.

I'm not arguing the way teams were seeded. You think since Chicago lost to NYK in 7 and since NYK lost to Houston in 7, then Chicago must've also posed a formidable match up for Houston.

It doesn't work out that way. The 2008 Hawks took Boston to 7. Boston beat LA in 6 (destroyed them in the closeout). Do you think the Hawks would beat the Lakers since they lasted longer against the Celtics?

Its highly flawed logic that can be backed up by several other examples.

I don't literally mean teams didn't take the Bulls seriously but you don't get up to play a team without Jordan as opposed to a team with him. Look at the Rockets example I provided with the way they started the season (22-1). They got a lot of coverage and talk early as the best team in the league but they cooled off when teams recognized that this was a team taking over the league. They ended up 58-24 despite little to no injury issues.

Its why people made a huge deal after those two losses against Denver and (forgot who) that the 72-10 Bulls had back to back. To take them down was considered a special accomplishment.

I don't agree they choked. They exceeded their expectations and they deserve credit for it. But there's context behind their success which is often ignored.

The East was weak as hell too for a variety of other reasons (not just Jordan's absence).
I've already stated examples as to how seeding don't necesarily indicate which team is better. I'm sure that if the knicks get past the bulls in 93 and 92, they probably go on to win the whole thing. I already showed the spurs, lakers and kings of the 00s. How bout in 97? When the heat and knick battled each other in the semis? They would've destroyed atlanta.

I do feel the bulls would've beaten indiana. But its just the luck of the draw.

[rhythmic]

I stopped watching after the first two minutes.
If he's going to use Jordan's college years as some sort of indication to why hes overrated, then he has already failed.

I don't ever recall Jordan being considered the best NCAA player during his career in North Carolina. Retrospectively, that shot has been brought up many times subsequent to Jordan's success in the NBA as another memorable Jordan moment. Len Bias was considered a bigger prospect then Jordan, and obviously Jordan was never expected to be as big of a success as he has been in the NBA since Sam Bowie was picked ahead of him.

Again, weak argument and I didn't care enough to finish watching the 1st video. He acts like 30 PPG on 23 shots is "somehow" a detriment to Jordan. That's still above league average for points per shot; not to mention he forgot to mention the efficiency at which Jordan scored those 30 PPG.

I for one don't think Jordan is clear-cut greatest of All-Time; I could rather easily provide sound counterpoints as to why Kareem was better, but that is irrelevant to why I posted in this thread.

[AlphaWolf24]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[97 bulls]

I really feel jordan becomes overrated once its implied that he won the bulls first three championships on his own. Its obvious that the bulls were a formindable team even without jordan. Which was most amazing. We actually got to see what the bulls could do without jordan and you still got people questioning his support.

And you can't have it both ways. You can't dismiss his first few seasons due to lack of support, then try to degrade the support he had once he finally started winning.

And what even more telling, is that the only fans that feel their favorite player won championships on his own is the jordan fan. And that's were he gets overrated.

[Sarcastic]

I really feel jordan becomes overrated once its implied that he won the bulls first three championships on his own. Its obvious that the bulls were a formindable team even without jordan. Which was most amazing. We actually got to see what the bulls could do without jordan and you still got people questioning his support.

And you can't have it both ways. You can't dismiss his first few seasons due to lack of support, then try to degrade the support he had once he finally started winning.

And what even more telling, is that the only fans that feel their favorite player won championships on his own is the jordan fan. And that's were he gets overrated.

They didn't win, and the team was about to fall apart by the second year. They were begging him to come back.

[97 bulls]

They didn't win, and the team was about to fall apart by the second year. They were begging him to come back.
I wouldn't say they were falling apart. They were 34-31 on pace to win 44 to 45 games and were the sixth seed in the east when jordan came back. They had no quality bigs. Grant was gone, so was cartwright, stacy king, and scott williams. That's about on par with what wade, and kobe have done with slightly more help.

[AlphaWolf24]

They didn't win, and the team was about to fall apart by the second year. They were begging him to come back.


actually they won 11 outta 13 games right before he came back...so they playing great for the final push before the playoff's....

not sure where you got "falling apart" from...

and they didn't win?...they won 55 games , Pippen was Allstar MVP and top 3 MVP voting and recognized as one of the top 1-3 players in the league...

by far a better Job without Jordan.....in leading the Bull's...then Vice versa.

[Legends66NBA7]

actually they won 11 outta 13 games right before he came back...so they playing great for the final push before the playoff's....

not sure where you got "falling apart" from...

and they didn't win?...they won 55 games , Pippen was Allstar MVP and top 3 MVP voting and recognized as one of the top 1-3 players in the league...

by far a better Job without Jordan.....in leading the Bull's...then Vice versa.

Alpha, are you MerkinMuffly ?

[bond10]

I really feel jordan becomes overrated once its implied that he won the bulls first three championships on his own. Its obvious that the bulls were a formindable team even without jordan. Which was most amazing. We actually got to see what the bulls could do without jordan and you still got people questioning his support.

And you can't have it both ways. You can't dismiss his first few seasons due to lack of support, then try to degrade the support he had once he finally started winning.

And what even more telling, is that the only fans that feel their favorite player won championships on his own is the jordan fan. And that's were he gets overrated.

It's not 94 Bulls = 93 Bulls - Jordan...

Tony Kukoc and Steve Kerr were solid shooters that were added...

Then 95 Bulls, Grant was gone so that was a hit.

So in a way, the 94 Bulls were kinda one of the best Bulls team assembled, it's not really hard to see them succeed as much as they did.

[97 bulls]

It's not 94 Bulls = 93 Bulls - Jordan...

Tony Kukoc and Steve Kerr were solid shooters that were added...

Then 95 Bulls, Grant was gone so that was a hit.

So in a way, the 94 Bulls were kinda one of the best Bulls team assembled, it's not really hard to see them succeed as much as they did.
Kerr replaced paxson. Paxson was on the team, but used sparringly as he was old. So in essence, the difference between the bulls in 93 and 94 was myer/kukoc (rookie kukoc) replaced jordan.

Now let me ask you a question..... would you trade pete myers and toni kukoc for michael jordan?

[bond10]

Why do you always get offended when there's a thread praising/defending Jordan?

[97 bulls]

And in 95, the bulls didn't just lose grant. They lost williams, king, cartwright, and paxson. From their championship team in 93. They had no frontline. Longley was getting better. But all they had was perdue and wennington.

[bond10]

Kerr replaced paxson. Paxson was on the team, but used sparringly as he was old. So in essence, the difference between the bulls in 93 and 94 was myer/kukoc (rookie kukoc) replaced jordan.

Now let me ask you a question..... would you trade pete myers and toni kukoc for michael jordan?

How the heck does Kukoc just "replace" Paxson? That's basically a pretty big upgrade...Also I doubt "age" had much to do with Paxson, it's 94, he was on the three-peat team in the 3 years right before it.

[Legends66NBA7]

And in 95, the bulls didn't just lose grant. They lost williams, king, cartwright, and paxson. From their championship team in 93. They had no frontline. Longley was getting better. But all they had was perdue and wennington.

Someone has responded to the videos, incase you were interested 97 bulls.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6419529#post6419529

[bond10]

And in 95, the bulls didn't just lose grant. They lost williams, king, cartwright, and paxson. From their championship team in 93. They had no frontline. Longley was getting better. But all they had was perdue and wennington.

Yeah, I didn't say the 95 Bulls were expected to go anywhere. I'm just trying to say that 94 Bulls was a combination of key players from the 1st 3 peat (grant, armstrong, bill cartwright) and key players from the 2nd 3 peat (kukoc, kerr, longley)

Besides Rodman, that 94 squad was a really good line up.

[97 bulls]

Why do you always get offended when there's a thread praising/defending Jordan?
I don't get offended. I'm a huge jordan fan. If you go back and look at my first few posts, you'd see I was defending jordan. I feel he's the GOAT. But I don't think jordan fans need to attack his teammates to elevate his status as the greatest ever. His accomplishments stand on their own.

I see it as simple math. Basically, all the bulls did was add jordan, the greatest ever to a 55 win team and upgrade rodman from grant. That adds up to what we saw in 96-98.

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't get offended. I'm a huge jordan fan. If you go back and look at my first few posts, you'd see I was defending jordan. I feel he's the GOAT. But I don't think jordan fans need to attack his teammates to elevate his status as the greatest ever. His accomplishments stand on their own.

I see it as simple math. Basically, all the bulls did was add jordan, the greatest ever to a 55 win team and upgrade rodman from grant. That adds up to what we saw in 96-98.

Yeah, I agree. I mean his resume speaks for itself, there's no need to downgrade the guys around him.

[bond10]

I don't get offended. I'm a huge jordan fan. If you go back and look at my first few posts, you'd see I was defending jordan. I feel he's the GOAT. But I don't think jordan fans need to attack his teammates to elevate his status as the greatest ever. His accomplishments stand on their own.

I see it as simple math. Basically, all the bulls did was add jordan, the greatest ever to a 55 win team and upgrade rodman from grant. That adds up to what we saw in 96-98.

Who here is bashing the other Bulls players?

And Kobe's the greatest ever....

[97 bulls]

Someone has responded to the videos, incase you were interested 97 bulls.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6419529#post6419529
Interesting. I firmly believe you can't hold jordans early years against him cuz his team sucked. Plain and simple.

But to be honest, I'm not a big fan of advanced stats because most of them are determined based on how much credit a person (normally a stat geek that's never played) wants to give a certain credit to a facet of basketball (normally offensive).

[97 bulls]

Yeah, I agree. I mean his resume speaks for itself, there's no need to downgrade the guys around him.
That's all I'm saying.

[Leviathon1121]

Who here is bashing the other Bulls players?

And Kobe's the greatest ever....

Alphawolf/Jacks3/etc/etc... : Pippen and Grant were the main reasons the Bulls won, they had more impact. Jordan without Pippen in playoffs 1-9 LOLOLOL.

Oldschool and maybe one other person : Bulls cast was not quite as good as you make them out to be, here are some reasons.

97 Bulls: You guys make Jordan fans look bad.

10 pages later...

[Legends66NBA7]

That's all I'm saying.

I think it's sometimes people just get a rise out of anyone dissing Jordan. Most of the time it's really by people trolling and I have seen a lot of people right long written sentences in response.

And videos, well, just ask Bruce Blitz destroying that kid KB42PAH.

[Legends66NBA7]

Alphawolf/Jacks3/etc/etc... : Pippen and Grant were the main reasons the Bulls won, they had more impact. Jordan without Pippen in playoffs 1-9 LOLOLOL.

Oldschool and maybe one other person : Bulls cast was not quite as good as you make them out to be, here are some reasons.

97 Bulls: You guys make Jordan fans look bad.

10 pages later...

Go here for the response to MerkinMuffly

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6419529#post6419529

[97 bulls]

Who here is bashing the other Bulls players?

And Kobe's the greatest ever....
They're always bashing jordans teammates here. Pippens overrated, rodman was too old, kukoc was soft, grant couldn't create his own shot, jordan made pippen, the bulls weren't that talented outside of jordan.

And I'm referring to the normal guys. Ghenghis, Andgar, Leviathon, and their god, Old School. I'm missing about 4-5 others. But we know who they are. Sometimes, even da realist takes shots at jordans teammates. But I wouldn't put him in that club.

[bond10]

Go here for the response to MerkinMuffly

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6419529#post6419529


That response is filled with that advanced metric "Win Shares"

Some people here don't believe in stats so it won't help the argument.

[824]

You guys are insane, why can't you stop thinking in terms of player ranking for ONE SECOND. Such an arbitrary argument, if you think circumstance and a billion other factors don't play into ANYBODIES SUCCESS you are insane, there's no black and white numerical ranking.

Michael Jordan was Michael Jordan, NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS. Appreciate, hate, do whatever the **** you want with it.

[97 bulls]

Alphawolf/Jacks3/etc/etc... : Pippen and Grant were the main reasons the Bulls won, they had more impact. Jordan without Pippen in playoffs 1-9 LOLOLOL.

Oldschool and maybe one other person : Bulls cast was not quite as good as you make them out to be, here are some reasons.

97 Bulls: You guys make Jordan fans look bad.

10 pages later...
But you play right into their hands when you respond by saying his teammates weren't that good. Why not focus on what kobe did without shaq. Or his statistics in the championship?

And when they (kobe fans) try to degrade jordan by using 94, why not use 96? Do you know how hard it is to add damn near 20 wins and a championship to a 55 win team? I live in Los Angeles. I have these conversations all day. Its not that hard.

[Legends66NBA7]

That response is filled with that advanced metric "Win Shares"

Some people here don't believe in stats so it won't help the argument.

Really ?

MerkinMuffly handpicks certain stats and peole are running with that arguement. Mostly trolls, but you get what I mean.

[97 bulls]

You guys are insane, why can't you stop thinking in terms of player ranking for ONE SECOND. Such an arbitrary argument, if you think circumstance and a billion other factors don't play into ANYBODIES SUCCESS you are insane, there's no black and white numerical ranking.

Michael Jordan was Michael Jordan, NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS. Appreciate, hate, do whatever the **** you want with it.
Bingo. Trying to rank players is tough. There's just to many variables.

[Leviathon1121]

But you play right into their hands when you respond by saying his teammates weren't that good. Why not focus on what kobe did without shaq. Or his statistics in the championship?

And when they (kobe fans) try to degrade jordan by using 94, why not use 96? Do you know how hard it is to add damn near 20 wins and a championship to a 55 win team? I live in Los Angeles. I have these conversations all day. Its not that hard.


I never once said a word about Jordan's teammates, which further proves to me that you are simply arguing to argue and making stuff up as you go along.

[97 bulls]

I never once said a word about Jordan's teammates, which further proves to me that you are simply arguing to argue and making stuff up as you go along.
Well if you've never have I apologize I stand corrected. Now let me ask you. Where do you stand as far as jordans teammates?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Still waiting on 97 Bulls to tell me whether Shaq "had to" average the umbers he did in the '00-'02 playoffs, or KAJ in the '71-'74 and '80 playoffs, or West in the late 60's playoffs etc.

Or is it only Jordan who didn't "have to" (but rather "chose to") put up huge numbers in the playoffs on great teams?

[bond10]

Well if you've never have I apologize I stand corrected. Now let me ask you. Where do you stand as far as jordans teammates?

They're great, can't have the nerve to say anything bad about players from either 3 peat team.

Without Jordan (I know this is the answer you want): They're as good as a 55 regular season win team (eventhough that 94 roster was stacked + anti-Jordan people always dismiss that awful 95 season)...

[IGOTGAME]

Still waiting on 97 Bulls to tell me whether Shaq "had to" average the umbers he did in the '00-'02 playoffs, or KAJ in the '71-'74 and '80 playoffs, or West in the late 60's playoffs etc.

Or is it only Jordan who didn't "have to" (but rather "chose to") put up huge numbers in the playoffs on great teams?
shaq didn't have to average those numbers.

[bond10]

shaq didn't have to average those numbers.

True. So he eased up in 04 and let Kobe do the work...and look what happened..

[97 bulls]

Still waiting on 97 Bulls to tell me whether Shaq "had to" average the umbers he did in the '00-'02 playoffs, or KAJ in the '71-'74 and '80 playoffs, or West in the late 60's playoffs etc.

Or is it only Jordan who didn't "have to" (but rather "chose to") put up huge numbers in the playoffs on great teams?
I was born in 74 so I can't really comment on kareem or west. I can say that it was different eras. So 35 ppg in the 60s and 70s is the equal to 28 ppg in the 90s roughly. That's just a rough guestimate.

As far as shaq, different situation.

[97 bulls]

True. So he eased up in 04 and let Kobe do the work...and look what happened..
Lolol

[IGOTGAME]

True. So he eased up in 04 and let Kobe do the work...and look what happened..
different team, different situation.

[RRR3]

Ahem *clears throat*

Kobe doin' work
His airballs really hurt
Kobe hogging the ball
But his teammates take the fall

Kobe hated the system
So he choked against the Pistons
Kobe envied Shaq
Who dominated while eatin' snacks

Kobe tossin' bricks
Against the Mavericks
Choking left and right
His fans were in a fright

[catch24]

These are my quote on quote "strikes" against Mike:

-He may have been THEE most protected superstar in the history of any SPORT, I mean this too. The referees really looked out for him...
-(& I'm agreeing with elliot kalb on some of these), the guy had his very own network (NBC).
-he took off almost 2 YEARS - DURING HIS PRIME...
-MJ didn't have to (something 97 Bulls eluded to) lead the league in scoring after he got that great supporting cast; he even stated in his hall of fame speech that he wanted to prove that the scoring champ can win a title. Why though? I feel he could of averaged 24-25 ppg, 7 rebs & 9-10 ast with ease..and nobody would of doubted his greatness.
-he shouldn't of come back after hitting the big shot vs utah n '98. I feel his 2 years with the wizards tarnished his shine a bit..

Of course with all of that being said, I feel Jordan has the best case for GOAT.

[gengiskhan]

These are my quote on quote "strikes" against Mike:

-He may have been THEE most protected superstar in the history of any SPORT, I mean this too. The referees really looked out for him...

Like "The Jordan Rules" illegal defense by pistons you mean. :rolleyes:


-(& I'm agreeing with elliot kalb on some of these), the guy had his very own network (NBC).

Like "49 pts followed by record 63 pts" & "55 pts followed by 50 pts" all in the POs happened on NBC & Not CBS. :facepalm


-he took off almost 2 YEARS - DURING HIS PRIME...

The Result of this.........
1996: NBA MVP, FMVP, 8th Scoring title
1997: Runner up MVP, FMVP, 9th Scoring title
1998: NBA MVP, FMVP, 10th Scoring title

Nobody ever had such a successful individual run post-prime in any sport any where in the world ever to this date. :rolleyes:


-MJ didn't have to (something 97 Bulls eluded to) lead the league in scoring after he got that great supporting cast; he even stated in his hall of fame speech that he wanted to prove that the scoring champ can win a title. Why though? I feel he could of averaged 24-25 ppg, 7 rebs & 9-10 ast with ease..and nobody would of doubted his greatness.

Perfecting the post-up game & off the ball game resulted in scoring titles NOT Kobe type ball hogging. Anywhere within 17 feet MJ was the single best option to guarantee a basket. Beyond that, it was Kerr & Kukoc 3 pointers. Pippen never a true offensive threat. Rodman played rebounds alone. Harper was streaky. Kukoc struggled against '90s physical D.:rolleyes:


-he shouldn't of come back after hitting the big shot vs utah n '98. I feel his 2 years with the wizards tarnished his shine a bit..

showed how easily he can ave 23ppg & 20 ppg when rules are relaxed & physical D is not allowed. :rolleyes:

[97 bulls]

Like "The Jordan Rules" illegal defense by pistons you mean. :rolleyes:



Like "49 pts followed by record 63 pts" & "55 pts followed by 50 pts" all in the POs happened on NBC & Not CBS. :facepalm



The Result of this.........
1996: NBA MVP, FMVP, 8th Scoring title
1997: Runner up MVP, FMVP, 9th Scoring title
1998: NBA MVP, FMVP, 10th Scoring title

Nobody ever had such a successful individual run post-prime in any sport any where in the world ever to this date. :rolleyes:

.

Perfecting the post-up game & off the ball game resulted in scoring titles NOT Kobe type ball hogging. Anywhere within 17 feet MJ was the single best option to guarantee a basket. Beyond that, it was Kerr & Kukoc 3 pointers. Pippen never a true offensive threat. Rodman played rebounds alone. Harper was streaky. Kukoc struggled against '90s physical D.:rolleyes:



showed how easily he can ave 23ppg & 20 ppg when rules are relaxed & physical D is not allowed. :rolleyes:
See what I mean Bond 10?

According to ghengis, the bulls were kerr and shooting 3s, pippen was never a true offensive threat, rodman was just a rebounder, harper was streaky, and kukoc was soft.

So in other words. It was jordan alone that got the bulls to 72 and 69 victories and good for best and second best ever. And three straight championships.

And this is why posters often refer to 94.

[AlphaWolf24]

See what I mean Bond 10?

According to ghengis, the bulls were kerr and shooting 3s, pippen was never a true offensive threat, rodman was just a rebounder, harper was streaky, and kukoc was soft.

So in other words. It was jordan alone that got the bulls to 72 and 69 victories and good for best and second best ever. And three straight championships.

And this is why posters often refer to 94.


:applause: this > "Jordan has the worst fans in sports" >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFxIkJ6Wi1A

[Legends66NBA7]

See what I mean Bond 10?

According to ghengis, the bulls were kerr and shooting 3s, pippen was never a true offensive threat, rodman was just a rebounder, harper was streaky, and kukoc was soft.

So in other words. It was jordan alone that got the bulls to 72 and 69 victories and good for best and second best ever. And three straight championships.

And this is why posters often refer to 94.

Would you give more credit to Jordan in 98 ?

[Legends66NBA7]

:applause: this > "Jordan has the worst fans in sports" >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFxIkJ6Wi1A

Alpha, answer my question from before, are you MerkinMuffly ?

[OldSchoolBBall]

As far as shaq, different situation.

Answer the question re: KAJ and Shaq. And no, the situations aren't different. The only difference is that your beloved Pippen wasn't on Shaq or KAJ's teams, so you've got no quarrel with them doing what they did. LMAO @ your ridiculous "Jordan CHOSE TO average waht he did" nonsense. :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Would you give more credit to Jordan in 98 ?
I would most definately. Pippen missed half the season. Jordan had a bad shooting hand. He deserved the mvp award no doubt. Especially under the circumstances.

[97 bulls]

Answer the question re: KAJ and Shaq. And no, the situations aren't different. The only difference is that your beloved Pippen wasn't on Shaq or KAJ's teams, so you've got no quarrel with them doing what they did. LMAO @ your ridiculous "Jordan CHOSE TO average waht he did" nonsense. :oldlol:
I feel their situations were differeent because on a nightly basis, the centers opposing shaq were garbage.

Like catch said, he could've avg 26/7/12 and been just as dominant.

[OldSchoolBBall]

-MJ didn't have to (something 97 Bulls eluded to) lead the league in scoring after he got that great supporting cast; he even stated in his hall of fame speech that he wanted to prove that the scoring champ can win a title. Why though? I feel he could of averaged 24-25 ppg, 7 rebs & 9-10 ast with ease..and nobody would of doubted his greatness.

I completely disagree with this, especially for the first three-peat team. There simply was no one who could consistently score enough for him to drop his scoring by 6-9 ppg (depending on if you mean RS or playoffs) and still have the team be offensively potent enough to compete with other teams of the era that were far more offensively talented.


Like catch said, he could've avg 26/7/12 and been just as dominant.

"Could have" as in "was capable of", yes, I agree. "Could have" as in "if he had done so the team would have had an equal chance of winning as much as they did" then no, I completely disagree with that.

[SuperPippen]

Alpha, answer my question from before, are you MerkinMuffly ?

No, he is not.

That video he linked to is from his own YouTube account.

[Legends66NBA7]

No, he is not.

That video he linked to is from his own YouTube account.

Yeah, I was aware of that part. I thought MerkinMuffly was his other youtube account or something.

[97 bulls]

I completely disagree with this, especially for the first three-peat team. There simply was no one who could consistently score enough for him to drop his scoring by 6-9 ppg (depending on if you mean RS or playoffs) and still have the team be offensively potent enough to compete with other teams of the era that were far more offensively talented.



"Could have" as in "was capable of", yes, I agree. "Could have" as in "if he had done so the team would have had an equal chance of winning as much as they did" then no, I completely disagree with that.
All I'm saying is that the bulls outside of jordan was better than you give them credit for.

I'm watching the 93 eastern conference first round between the hawks and bulls. Jordan sprain his ankle and the bulls didn't miss a beat.

Id also like to note that hawks team had blaylock, willis, augmon, and off course wilkins. How could they manage to only go 44-38? Id also like to add that pippen held wilkins to 44, 42 and 41% shooting.

[Cali Syndicate]

actually they won 11 outta 13 games right before he came back...so they playing great for the final push before the playoff's....

not sure where you got "falling apart" from...

and they didn't win?...they won 55 games , Pippen was Allstar MVP and top 3 MVP voting and recognized as one of the top 1-3 players in the league...

by far a better Job without Jordan.....in leading the Bull's...then Vice versa.

You're comparing Pippen in his PRIME with much of the core cast that came of winning multiple championships together with Phil Jackson at the helm to a young Jordan with a lottery team and three different coaches running the show for his first three seasons?

What does that prove?

[97 bulls]

You're comparing Pippen in his PRIME with much of the core cast that came of winning multiple championships together with Phil Jackson at the helm to a young Jordan with a lottery team and three different coaches running the show for his first three seasons?

What does that prove?
This is a very fair assesment. But you must understand. This is a reply to someone saying that the bulls weren't a good team outside of jordan. Which is to say. Ok, if its true that the bulls weren't that good outside of jordan, why wasn't jordan able to even keep the bulls above 500 early in his career?

[AlphaWolf24]

Alpha, answer my question from before, are you MerkinMuffly ?


Listen kid...where I'm from ,when you slobbin you shouln't smile....

if yo iron's busted...betta crease dat sh!t wit a pack of ciggarillo's

and the last and most important rule....you never talk to , hang with or conduct biznazz with Boston Celtic fans...****! Boston....

Boston Sucks!...Boston Sucks....


No i aint no Fluffy Celtic fan.....but that doesn't mean he isn't 100% correct about Jordan= Bald headed Dominique Wilkins!

[eliteballer]

Ref lets Jordan get away with travel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16A7WFOKrKs&t=4m35s

Ref calls phantom foul on Jordans defender:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4Dxe9AJ52w&t=3m10s

[guy]

You're comparing Pippen in his PRIME with much of the core cast that came of winning multiple championships together with Phil Jackson at the helm

I've always thought that if Jordan was going to retire, he picked just about the best timing for the Bulls to be most successful. Pippen entered his absolute prime and the team in general was still young and motivated and as experienced as you can get. They had the perfect mix of youth and experience.

If you take the 91-98 seasons and just took Jordan off those teams, I'd say the Bulls probably win something like 39, 46, 42, 55, 43, 53, 47, 35 in those seasons. Not based on anything, just a guesstimate.

Put Jordan on the 94 Bulls, and its not unreasonable at all to think they could've broken the single season record that year instead.

[Cali Syndicate]

Ref lets Jordan get away with travel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16A7WFOKrKs&t=4m35s

Ref calls phantom foul on Jordans defender:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4Dxe9AJ52w&t=3m10s

You can find all the phantom calls you want, Kobe still throughout his career has gotten to the line at a faster pace than Jordan did. In the 04-05 season, Kobe wasn't necessarily out of shape but he was definitely far from being in his best shape and yet he got to the line at a faster pace than Jordan ever did for any season including 87' where he was relentlessly attacking and slashing all season long.

Superstar treatment? Kobe has gotten his fair share.... and then some.

[AlphaWolf24]

I've always thought that if Jordan was going to retire, he picked just about the best timing for the Bulls to be most successful. Pippen entered his absolute prime and the team in general was still young and motivated and as experienced as you can get. They had the perfect mix of youth and experience.

If you take the 91-98 seasons and just took Jordan off those teams, I'd say the Bulls probably win something like 39, 46, 42, 55, 43, 53, 47, 35 in those seasons. Not based on anything, just a guesstimate.

Put Jordan on the 94 Bulls, and its not unreasonable at all to think they could've broken the single season record that year instead.


wow...that's funny how you can say that now over 15 years later.....with such confidence...how convienant...


because back at the time when Jordan retired , most people expected at minimal a 17 - 20 game impact....most in the basketball community didn't even think the Bull's would get close to the Playoff's...

after all...they just Lost the bestest ever who made everyone better ....how could Pip, Grant and BJ respond without MJ there to draw so much attention??....

oh wait , they all made the allstar team and played top shelf basketball...Pip was an MVP candidate and BJ and Grant were allstars.....The Bull';s offense and defense improved....they only slipped 2 games and if not for a bad call could have easily won a Title.

No one then expected that......to sit back now over 15 years later and say how the Bull's were just at thier peak is silly....

[guy]

wow...that's funny how you can say that now over 15 years later.....with such confidence...how convienant...


because back at the time when Jordan retired , most people expected at minimal a 17 - 20 game impact....most in the basketball community didn't even think the Bull's would get close to the Playoff's...

after all...they just Lost the bestest ever who made everyone better ....how could Pip, Grant and BJ respond without MJ there to draw so much attention??....

oh wait , they all made the allstar team and played top shelf basketball...Pip was an MVP candidate and BJ and Grant were allstars.....The Bull';s offense and defense improved....they only slipped 2 games and if not for a bad call could have easily won a Title.

No one then expected that......to sit back now over 15 years later and say how the Bull's were just at thier peak is silly....

Yea there offense and defense improved and if not for a bad call in game 5 with the series tied 2-2 in the 2nd round, they would've automatically won 9 more games to win a title. :rolleyes:

I forgot that Pippen, Grant, and BJ were the same exact players in every year of their career as 94.

Do you really think anyone takes you seriously?

[305Baller]

Part 1; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53dn_D6FWBk&feature=feedu

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5oCGz32_Zg&feature=feedu


You can tell the person that made this video is young.

MJ did not lead NC to the title. He never did. He hit the shot that put them on top, in crunchtime.

Also, MJ was not a good leader until the 90's. He was always that killer assasin that couldnt win it all. After he figured "it" out he became unstoppable.

He was not the greatest of all-time all of the time, he developed into that person through adversity.

Finally, I don't have a pair of Jordans and never have had a damn pair so the guy that made the video can go F himself.

[97 bulls]

I've always thought that if Jordan was going to retire, he picked just about the best timing for the Bulls to be most successful. Pippen entered his absolute prime and the team in general was still young and motivated and as experienced as you can get. They had the perfect mix of youth and experience.

If you take the 91-98 seasons and just took Jordan off those teams, I'd say the Bulls probably win something like 39, 46, 42, 55, 43, 53, 47, 35 in those seasons. Not based on anything, just a guesstimate.

Put Jordan on the 94 Bulls, and its not unreasonable at all to think they could've broken the single season record that year instead.
This is rediculous. Especially since we got a first hand look at what the bulls did without jordan for almost two full seasons. Then you wonder why jordan is attacked so much. Its because of silly statements like this one.

Especially the second threepeat that proved they could dominate with their two best players playing sub-par. Rodman should've won the finals mvp in 96. Longley also had a very good series too. Id say the bulls without jordan would've won 48 games in 91, 53 in 92, 50 in 93, 55 in 94, 45 in 95, 63 in 96, 63 in 97 (their most talented team) and 53 in 98 (providing pippen is healthy the whole year).

Hell they were on pace to win 30 games in 99 when all they had left over from that championship team was kukoc and an old ron harper.

Terrible post guy

[Legends66NBA7]

Listen kid...where I'm from ,when you slobbin you shouln't smile....

if yo iron's busted...betta crease dat sh!t wit a pack of ciggarillo's

and the last and most important rule....you never talk to , hang with or conduct biznazz with Boston Celtic fans...****! Boston....

Boston Sucks!...Boston Sucks....


No i aint no Fluffy Celtic fan.....but that doesn't mean he isn't 100% correct about Jordan= Bald headed Dominique Wilkins!

SuperPippen already let me in on that scoop, but everything else is good to know.

Although, I have been to Cali back and forth from the Bay to L.A. quiet a few times in the past years to know what's good. Thanks for the heads up.

[NugzHeat3]

This is rediculous. Especially since we got a first hand look at what the bulls did without jordan for almost two full seasons. Then you wonder why jordan is attacked so much. Its because of silly statements like this one.

Especially the second threepeat that proved they could dominate with their two best players playing sub-par. Rodman should've won the finals mvp in 96. Longley also had a very good series too. Id say the bulls without jordan would've won 48 games in 91, 53 in 92, 50 in 93, 55 in 94, 45 in 95, 63 in 96, 63 in 97 (their most talented team) and 53 in 98 (providing pippen is healthy the whole year).

Hell they were on pace to win 30 games in 99 when all they had left over from that championship team was kukoc and an old ron harper.

Terrible post guy
Eh, Rodman's offensive rebounding was crucial but I don't think he was as important as Jordan. Rodman didn't bother Kemp that much either.

Half the games were blowouts and neither team really shot the ball well so in that way you can say Rodman's rebounding was key but you can also say Jordan's shooting percent is not as bad as it looks. The series was kind of ugly.

FWIW, Phil took Jordan as the finals MVP.


Jordan became the first player to win four Final MVP awards. Magic Johnson won the award three times. Jordan received six of a possible 11 votes while Kemp garnered three votes and Rodman two.
"Michael Jordan was the MVP of this Final," Jackson said. "Everybody had their moments. But Michael was consistently the force and factor for us in this series."

http://articles.nydailynews.com/1996-06-17/sports/17996485_1_jordan-and-dennis-rodman-shawn-kemp-mvp-awards

I think the best case a non-Bull had to win finals MVP was Pippen in 1998 after the Bulls were up 3-1. He was the leading candidate at that point but a terrible shooting night with a busted back, one Karl Malone and Antoine Carr got in his way. And then the memorable Jordan sequence in game 6 ruined his chances (45 pts with your second best player out for the half and playing as a decoy).

His defense was unreal in those first four games. Literally a one man terror machine. Especially that 40 point blowout, dude was taking charges with a train in Karl Malone running in. :bowdown:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan was a LOSER before Pippen came to town, how did he show him how to become a winner if he was used to LOSING before he and Grant came to Chicago? Show me proof of what kind of career Pippen would or wouldn't have had without him? Jordan has gone on record as saying Pippen HELPED MAKE HIM A BETTER PLAYER!.. Jordan in the 80s needed to be FORCED to relieve the ball and get others involved, numerous sideline blowups with coaches.


This is rediculous. Especially since we got a first hand look at what the bulls did without jordan for almost two full seasons. Then you wonder why jordan is attacked so much. Its because of silly statements like this one.

That's a jocker for 'ya. He (Jordan) has a legion of them. The only people I see on here that slander him are Kobe apostles. There is little I could gain from talking with them because their ignorance comes from being young and not having seen earlier eras of ball.

A Jordan Jocker on the other hand is older and insecure towards others' opinions and always needs to lash out at those who don't see the world in their view. If not the case, they start spamming threads. Or Bruce and Oldschoolbball who feel they're some sort of messiahs sent from the heavens above to 'educate' and convert us all. LOL! They're so scared to be challenged they need comments to them to be screened that only see them in a positive light?

[Legends66NBA7]

So since my thread is closed now, I will have to present this hear:

Michael Jordan was overrated due to team success (Written response to MerkinMuffly)

[QUOTE=Ben]Jordan haters often proclaim:

[97 bulls]

Eh, Rodman's offensive rebounding was crucial but I don't think he was as important as Jordan. Rodman didn't bother Kemp that much either.

Half the games were blowouts and neither team really shot the ball well so in that way you can say Rodman's rebounding was key but you can also say Jordan's shooting percent is not as bad as it looks. The series was kind of ugly.

FWIW, Phil took Jordan as the finals MVP.


http://articles.nydailynews.com/1996-06-17/sports/17996485_1_jordan-and-dennis-rodman-shawn-kemp-mvp-awards

I think the best case a non-Bull had to win finals MVP was Pippen in 1998 after the Bulls were up 3-1. He was the leading candidate at that point but a terrible shooting night with a busted back, one Karl Malone and Antoine Carr got in his way. And then the memorable Jordan sequence in game 6 ruined his chances (45 pts with your second best player out for the half and playing as a decoy).

His defense was unreal in those first four games. Literally a one man terror machine. Especially that 40 point blowout, dude was taking charges with a train in Karl Malone running in. :bowdown:
George Karl believed Rodman deserved to be MVP. He said rodman won 2 of the four games by himself. And he definately frustrated Kemp. It didn't show statistically, but Kemp was visibly flustered.

And I see what your saying about Pippen, but I just don't know if he deserved it over jordan.

[Micku]

to who??.....I guarantee you most "hardcore fans" would not rank Jordan with 3 titles and 3 Losing seasons over Kareem , Russell , Magic and Bird...

maybe kids who robbed and begged for Jordans shoes might rank him higher....but not real fans.

People did think Michael Jordan possibly the GOAT of time by 1993. Here's a news clip in 1993 about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSGHhahbgf0

They were calling MJ the best by the first threepeat. There were also some internet posts and articles labeling Michael Jordan the GOAT. Of course, it's not universal. You are entitled to think someone else is better like Kareem, Wilt or whatever. Some people think Magic Johnson is the best basketball player because of his teamplay ability.

If you did lived during that time and was old enough to understand the game, Michael Jordan was the best thing since slice bread. He put up some crazy and record breaking stats while winning a championship. A bunch of people thought and still think that Jordan is the greatest player to pick up a basketball.

But you can say someone is better than MJ. You just need some evidence and the player has to have a good resume to back that up. That's all. It's not like MJ is the best at everything. The sports media today overrate MJ by constantly comparing him to stars, but it's unavoidable.

[305Baller]

I posted my previous reply on MerkinMuffy's video comments section and his response was.

"You suck, jocker."

And then I was blocked from replying.

We are dealing with a real mind here.

:facepalm

[knickswin]

I do think the credit he gets for UNC's title is a bit ridiculous. That was Worthy's team.

[guy]

This is rediculous. Especially since we got a first hand look at what the bulls did without jordan for almost two full seasons. Then you wonder why jordan is attacked so much. Its because of silly statements like this one.

So Pippen, Grant, and BJ were the exact same players in 91 and 92 as they were in 94? Thats what you believe?



Especially the second threepeat that proved they could dominate with their two best players playing sub-par. Rodman should've won the finals mvp in 96. Longley also had a very good series too. Id say the bulls without jordan would've won 48 games in 91, 53 in 92, 50 in 93, 55 in 94, 45 in 95, 63 in 96, 63 in 97 (their most talented team) and 53 in 98 (providing pippen is healthy the whole year).

Hell they were on pace to win 30 games in 99 when all they had left over from that championship team was kukoc and an old ron harper.

Terrible post guy

When the hell were they playing subpar in the 2nd three-peat?

Before I go any further, let me clarify that I'm assuming Jordan retires before the start of those seasons (so they aren't all together), cause I'm taking there experience into account, which they obviously wouldn't have had as much if Jordan wasn't there in the first place.

In 91-93 your projections are like 7 games apart. Whats the issue? Thats not much. I'm taking into account the fact that they were younger, not as mature, and just not as good. Specifically Pippen. He was not the leader, game manager, and just as good of a player in general as he was from 94-97. He wasn't even an all-star in 1991. He became the HOF Pippen starting in those playoffs. In 93, that whole team was burnt out so I'm assuming Pippen and Grant have a worse year then in 92, which they did.

In 95 we're off 2 games.

From 96-98, why are you assuming players aren't getting injured? In 96 Pippen missed 5 games, Rodman missed 18, and the centers missed a good amount as well. I'm sure you've seen the Steve Kerr video clip where he says one of the main reasons they broke the record was cause there were 8 or 9 games where the game looked completely out of reach but Jordan just took over at the end and willed them to victory. Without those, they are at about 63 wins, so its not unreasonable to take another 10 games out due to injuries and just the fact that Jordan isn't there. In 97 its much of the same thing, where they were ravaged by injuries to alot of there best supporting players like Kukoc missing 25 games, Rodman missing 27 games, and there two top centers missing a combined 44 games. Going from 69 to 63 games when that was the case and now Jordan isn't there is really understating things. 98 is self explanatory. 35 games is generous for that team missing Pippen and Jordan for 38 games and still Jordan for the other 44.

Seriously, you're way too ****ing sensitive. I said a team with there best mix of youth and experience would be better then they would've been in any other year. How ridiculous!

[97 bulls]

So Pippen, Grant, and BJ were the exact same players in 91 and 92 as they were in 94? Thats what you believe?



When the hell were they playing subpar in the 2nd three-peat?

Before I go any further, let me clarify that I'm assuming Jordan retires before the start of those seasons (so they aren't all together), cause I'm taking there experience into account, which they obviously wouldn't have had as much if Jordan wasn't there in the first place.

In 91-93 your projections are like 7 games apart. Whats the issue? Thats not much. I'm taking into account the fact that they were younger, not as mature, and just not as good. Specifically Pippen. He was not the leader, game manager, and just as good of a player in general as he was from 94-97. He wasn't even an all-star in 1991. He became the HOF Pippen starting in those playoffs. In 93, that whole team was burnt out so I'm assuming Pippen and Grant have a worse year then in 92, which they did.

In 95 we're off 2 games.

From 96-98, why are you assuming players aren't getting injured? In 96 Pippen missed 5 games, Rodman missed 18, and the centers missed a good amount as well. I'm sure you've seen the Steve Kerr video clip where he says one of the main reasons they broke the record was cause there were 8 or 9 games where the game looked completely out of reach but Jordan just took over at the end and willed them to victory. Without those, they are at about 63 wins, so its not unreasonable to take another 10 games out due to injuries and just the fact that Jordan isn't there. In 97 its much of the same thing, where they were ravaged by injuries to alot of there best supporting players like Kukoc missing 25 games, Rodman missing 27 games, and there two top centers missing a combined 44 games. Going from 69 to 63 games when that was the case and now Jordan isn't there is really understating things. 98 is self explanatory. 35 games is generous for that team missing Pippen and Jordan for 38 games and still Jordan for the other 44.

Seriously, you're way too ****ing sensitive. I said a team with there best mix of youth and experience would be better then they would've been in any other year. How ridiculous!
Since your counting their injuries Id agree. But that team was just too talented to lose that many games at full strength. Pippen, Rodman, and Kukoc would still be one of the better big threes in the league.

[L8kersfan222]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezDDZFuo6zU

[AlphaWolf24]

You can tell the person that made this video is young.

MJ did not lead NC to the title. He never did. He hit the shot that put them on top, in crunchtime.

Also, MJ was not a good leader until the 90's. He was always that killer assasin that couldnt win it all. After he figured "it" out he became unstoppable.

He was not the greatest of all-time all of the time, he developed into that person through adversity.

Finally, I don't have a pair of Jordans and never have had a damn pair so the guy that made the video can go F himself.


actually the person who made the videos is in his late 30's (saw it on his account 3 years ago)...

many Jordan jockers were so attached to MJ's ball sack that they would often claim he was the tarheels best player in 82'..

Jordans Kicks were so hyped..white and black kids were gettin got on the way to school if they had a pair:lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

Ref lets Jordan get away with travel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16A7WFOKrKs&t=4m35s


Not a travel at all. Learn the game.

[guy]

Since your counting their injuries Id agree. But that team was just too talented to lose that many games at full strength. Pippen, Rodman, and Kukoc would still be one of the better big threes in the league.

Why would I not use injuries? How often do teams not go through injuries? If it wasn't for injuries, we probably would've seen multiple teams in history win 70+ games. The 96 and 97 Bulls may have won like 75+.

[PTB Fan]

Lot of hating in the videos...

[bond10]

Jordan's da GOAT. 95% of the universe agrees. The 5% left over is comprised of old geezers who watched Wilt/Russell + internet kids with agendas + people who like to go against the general public opinion for the hell of it

[AlphaWolf24]

Jordan's da GOAT. 95% of the universe agrees. The 5% left over is comprised of old geezers who watched Wilt/Russell + internet kids with agendas + people who like to go against the general public opinion for the hell of it


exactly what i have been saying all along....:applause:


by acclamation...

"Kobe's top 3 GOAT. 95% of the universe agrees. The 5% left over is comprised of old geezers who watched Bird/Magic + internet kids with agendas + people who like to go against the general public opinion for the hell of it"

[AlphaWolf24]

you blocked me and someone else in this thread has already said you blocked them.

thats about what id expect from you. if id have known this video was made by you i wouldnt have commented, you are way to far gone to have any kind of debate with...


What?...The person who made the video is not me !....

[Round Mound]

Thats what i always said before even for MJ retired for his 1st year. Jordan had GREAT TEAMATES to Wing Rings. Charles Barkley had a HIGHER WINNING % WITH LESS TEAMATES FROM 87-93. This is how it goes Jordan left Bulls WIN 2 GAMES LESS. Pippen dominated the league ranked 4th in PER and a Top 10 DRT Player, Best Perimeter Defender Ever. Jordan was the Best Individual Player but he was NOT THE BEST TEAM PLAYER.

[Inception28]

Michael Jordan is only overrated by close minded people who say MJ is the GOAT and it isn't even close.

[9erEmpire]

Part 1; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53dn_D6FWBk&feature=feedu

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5oCGz32_Zg&feature=feedu

very interesting video.

I was too young and now I see what people were talking about.

Nike probably had a big reason to hype him up.

[bwink23]

He blocked everyone who was dispelling his bullshit on his videos, including myself....take with a grain of salt.

[305Baller]

Part 1; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53dn_D6FWBk&feature=feedu

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5oCGz32_Zg&feature=feedu

I like the second video. Pip was good.

[dude77]

I'm not admitting anything. And I'm definatly not indicting jordan based on 94. All I'm saying is how can you or anyone else say the bulls werent good without jordan when they were contending for a championship without him?

The colts have more problems that just manning.


they weren't contending for anything .. since when are 2nd round losers 'championship contenders' ??

without jordan .. 2nd round losers .. with jordan .. champs .. what's so hard to understand ? jordan hate is strong .. but I get it .. it was this same way when he played .. they couldn't stand the guy because he was so good(me included)

[I.R.Beast]

Everyone who watched him and his stacked ass Bulls in the 90's knows he cake-walked into title year after year...his jockers want to act like competition was tough as nails, yet videos like this shine a bright new light on the story:applause: The only tough team he faced in those days was Magic with young Shaq - is it a surprise that they beat Bulls one year too? Not to any knowledgeable fan at least...once again, thanks to OP for this amazing clip:cheers:
i gotta agree.... I'm not gonna disrespect MJ or anything like that but he definately did all his winning in the weakest ERA of bbal in regards to competition. Undersized guards everywhere, not truly great teams etc....Just not a very competative league.

[OmniStrife]

comparing Kobe to MJ is like comparing a Skoda to a Mercedes Benz.

[Legends66NBA7]

comparing Kobe to MJ is like comparing a Skoda to a Mercedes Benz.

Cloud, the owner of those videos hates both Jordan and Kobe.

He is a Larry Bird/Celtics homer.

[Deuce Bigalow]

What's your top 10 again Round Mound? :lol

[bwink23]

Lol in reference to playing team basketball "you don't play basketball that way". What kind of dumb shit is this? Well how do you play team basketball? Sit back and watch one guy go 1 on 5? And then when the game is over an they lose, you say well, he did his job?


In 93, jordan avg 26 shots a game. The bulls as a team avg 88 shots. Thats damn near 40% of the teams fg attempts. And that's not counting shots on fouls. What made the bulls great is that just about everyone outside of jordan, didn't need the ball to be effective. I don't even see why this is even an argument. They won 55 games without jordan. And without a viable replacement.


First off, your math sucks, it's 29.2%, not NEAR 40% like u want to believe. Second, the Bulls were 1-3 without Jordan that year....they needed Jordan to carry the load. PERIOD.

[Duncan21formvp]

Thats what i always said before even for MJ retired for his 1st year. Jordan had GREAT TEAMATES to Wing Rings. Charles Barkley had a HIGHER WINNING % WITH LESS TEAMATES FROM 87-93. This is how it goes Jordan left Bulls WIN 2 GAMES LESS. Pippen dominated the league ranked 4th in PER and a Top 10 DRT Player, Best Perimeter Defender Ever. Jordan was the Best Individual Player but he was NOT THE BEST TEAM PLAYER.

The Sixers won titles before Barkley ever stepped foot on the court and they had guys who won both league and finals mvp in Moses Malone and Dr J, guys who were great before Barkley came around. And then he went to a team that had won 53+ games 4 years in a row before he ever came. First he went to the Sixers who won 59, 62, 58, 65, 52 the prior seasons before Barkley came and then went to Phoenix who won 55, 54, 55, 53 and got to the Conference Finals twice including beating Magic's Lakers in the process.
So let's not make it out as if Barkley never had talent on his teams, he probably had as much if not more talent on his teams and when expected to win titles he didn't.

[swi7ch]

I :roll: at ppl using MJ's comeback year as an example. He came back mid-season after being away from top-level competition for at least two years! Of course he had a difficult time dominating that year! Of course his team had a hard time winning the title that year!

Now, tell me what happened the following year when he got back to basketball form. And the year after that? And the third year after his comeback?

[hitmanyr2k]

i gotta agree.... I'm not gonna disrespect MJ or anything like that but he definately did all his winning in the weakest ERA of bbal in regards to competition. Undersized guards everywhere, not truly great teams etc....Just not a very competative league.

I'm kind of sick of seeing this argument. It's garbage. Jordan dominated all guards of all sizes. Didn't matter if they were 6'3-6'4 (Starks) to 6'5 (Mitch Richmond) to 6'6-6'7 (Gerald Wilkins, Drexler, Reggie Miller, Dan Majerle, Penny, Grant Hill, etc). It just didn't matter.

Every star swingman have faced undersized players during title runs. Listening to Laker fans you would think Kobe Bryant was facing the cream of the crop during those early championship title runs. Guys like T-Mac, Vince Carter, prime Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, etc. Kobe faced none of those guys in LA's early playoff runs. Just about all of the all-star swingmen were battling out East while all the great big men were out west. Since it was a big man's league once again (sans Jordan) it's no wonder teams with Shaq or Duncan dominated the way they did. Anyway, when Kobe was getting his hype as the "2nd coming" he was being guarded 6'3 Jason Kidd, 6'2 Antonio Daniels, 6'3 Terry Porter, 6'3 Bobby Jackson (when spelling for Doug Christie), and sometimes against Portland (for reasons that baffled me) 5'11 Damon Stoudamire. Are we supposed to believe Jordan wouldn't have skull-f**ked any of these guys in the playoffs? Cmon :oldlol:

The weakest era of this league by far was 1999-2003. The Lakers and Spurs teams of those years really only had to battle one quality team in the WCF. After that it was just a formality they would be the champions because the Eastern Conference teams were sick jokes. That's when the competition was at its absolute worst.

[hitmanyr2k]

I :roll: at ppl using MJ's comeback year as an example. He came back mid-season after being away from top-level competition for at least two years! Of course he had a difficult time dominating that year! Of course his team had a hard time winning the title that year!

Now, tell me what happened the following year when he got back to basketball form. And the year after that? And the third year after his comeback?

The Bulls didn't lose in '95 because Jordan was out of shape. Jordan wasn't in tip top shape but that 1995 Bulls team had the same problem all year long with or without Jordan. They had no quality interior presence in the middle and it got exploited. It was so bad Pippen lead the team in rebounds that year and at times had to play out of position at the PF spot. I think even if the Bulls had the '96 version of Jordan in '95 they still probably don't win the title that year because they were so bad in the middle. The addition of Rodman took care of that.

[97 bulls]

they weren't contending for anything .. since when are 2nd round losers 'championship contenders' ??

without jordan .. 2nd round losers .. with jordan .. champs .. what's so hard to understand ? jordan hate is strong .. but I get it .. it was this same way when he played .. they couldn't stand the guy because he was so good(me included)
Well if this is the case the only teams capable of contending for a title are the two teams in the championship.

Generaly, the top 3-5 teams record-wise are considered the team that have the best chance to win the championship. That was my point. The bulls were a top 5 team.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The Bulls didn't lose in '95 because Jordan was out of shape. Jordan wasn't in tip top shape but that 1995 Bulls team had the same problem all year long with or without Jordan. They had no quality interior presence in the middle and it got exploited. It was so bad Pippen lead the team in rebounds that year and at times had to play out of position at the PF spot. I think even if the Bulls had the '96 version of Jordan in '95 they still probably don't win the title that year because they were so bad in the middle. The addition of Rodman took care of that.

I don't know about that. MJ had some uncharacteristic turnovers in Game 1 and 6. Dude looked great physically but his timing was inexplicably off.

[97 bulls]

First off, your math sucks, it's 29.2%, not NEAR 40% like u want to believe. Second, the Bulls were 1-3 without Jordan that year....they needed Jordan to carry the load. PERIOD.
Lol are you serious? That was a guestimate. That's why I used the words "damn near". Some of you people are really pathetic

[Leviathon1121]

Lol are you serious? That was a guestimate. That's why I used the words "damn near". Some of you people are really pathetic

Kobe is shooting damn near 30% this year, so bad.

Oh wait, I am 11% off, actually does make a huge difference doesn't it?

[hitmanyr2k]

I don't know about that. MJ had some uncharacteristic turnovers in Game 1 and 6. Dude looked great physically but his timing was inexplicably off.

I'm doubtful even '96 Jordan would have made a difference. The Bulls just had too much trouble with rebounding and defense in the middle in '95. Even if they were to somehow get past the Magic that year they're still having to go through the Pacers' tough frontline of Smits and the Davis bros and then waiting for them beyond that was a Houston Rocket team with Hakeem Olajuwon destroying everything in his path along with Clyde Drexler as his running mate.

[Da_Realist]

The internet is amazing. Now Jordan cakewalked to all those titles. I don't know whether to :facepalm or :oldlol: or :roll:

The Bulls didn't play in the NBA, they played against JV teams from Idaho. That's the only reason they won and the only reason Jordan dominated like he did. All those games were altered to make Jordan look better. His competition and even past legends were cursed by Severus Snape to say (and continue to say) he's the best. The people that know the TRUTH are all those haters that were sentenced to Azkaban during the nineties with their only "entertainment" being that they were forced to watch this lucky charms fraud win championship after championship after championship after championship after championship after championship. Must've been hell for those dudes that know the TRUTH.

Jordan never existed at all.

Idiots.

[97 bulls]

Kobe is shooting damn near 30% this year, so bad.

Oh wait, I am 11% off, actually does make a huge difference doesn't it?
Mathematically, there's a huge difference. Beecause I'm basing my guestimate off of almost 100 shots. So there's more room for error.

What your doing is comparing apples to oranges.

[Fazotronic]

:facepalm even when he had loaded teams, how in the world are you gonna ignore the fact that he was the best player in the world, the stats he made and the way he played in every single game.
You don't cakewalk in to titles when you're the best playoff performer of all time:facepalm

[97 bulls]

The internet is amazing. Now Jordan cakewalked to all those titles. I don't know whether to :facepalm or :oldlol: or :roll:

The Bulls didn't play in the NBA, they played against JV teams from Idaho. That's the only reason they won and the only reason Jordan dominated like he did. All those games were altered to make Jordan look better. His competition and even past legends were cursed by Severus Snape to say (and continue to say) he's the best. The people that know the TRUTH are all those haters that were sentenced to Azkaban during the nineties with their only "entertainment" being that they were forced to watch this lucky charms fraud win championship after championship after championship after championship after championship after championship. Must've been hell for those dudes that know the TRUTH.

Jordan never existed at all.

Idiots.
But you kinda say the same things. According to you, the nba as a whole was nothing more than a bunch of "JV" (to use your expression) teams. And thus aren't as good as past teams due to expansion.

So jordans competiton wasn't any good according to you.

[97 bulls]

:facepalm even when he had loaded teams, how in the world are you gonna ignore the fact that he was the best player in the world, the stats he made and the way he played in every single game.
You don't cakewalk in to titles when you're the best playoff performer of all time:facepalm
Exactly.

[La Frescobaldi]

round mound = john wayne of ish

[OhNoTimNoSho]

No surprise. MJ in today's league would be nothing more than a poor-man's Joe Johnson.
MJ in today's league would be nothing but a poor-man's Thaddeus Young.