Why do so many top center prospects fail at the NBA level?

[Clippersfan86]

With all the hype surrounding Drummond I'm starting to think he's a huge risk for anyone to take with the top pick. Why? Dwight was the last dominant center taken and that was back in 2004. That means it will be 8 years by next years draft since a highly touted center prospect was worth the pick. Think about how many busts we've had like Thabeet that were hyped centers.

Bogut was a good number 1 selection but if he played in the 90's he wouldn't even be a top 10 center. So I guess my question is why are traditional back to the basket, dominant centers so rare? Seems like we get 2 or 3 a decade TOPS and that's in the best center eras. Why do they pan out less as prospects than wing players? It seems like wings are the safest bets with drafting BUT if you get lucky and land a Shaq, Kareem, D Rob etc.. you're set for a long time contending for championships. I can't think of a single dominant center who didn't win championships, usually multiple. So why are bigmen now working on a perimeter game instead?

I've never seen a face up center lead a team to a ring.

[TheFan]

because current rules, discourage back to the basket games while favoring front to the basket game... Centers grab boards, sets screen and take open jump shots....

nowadays Centers are mainly support players...

Also Kids want to be the next Kobe/Lebron... i doubt many want to be the next Dwight.

[G-train]

Dwight practically begged Brian Hill to let him play like Garnett, but Hill just told him to get stuffed and stay in the block.

[NuggetsFan]

That Thabeet pick was a GUARANTEED bust imo. I never once thought to myself he could ever be an All-Star center or anything more than a big man off the bench that blocks a shot or two. Pretty sure alot of people saw it, no idea why the Grizzlies picked him that high.

Anyways good point. Probably because the NBA lacks big men so much that when one that's half decent pops up people overrate them. Try to make them out to be something there not. When you think about it a potential center that could average 15\10\2? Would probably go top 3 in today's NBA.

[Clippersfan86]

because current rules, discourage back to the basket games while favoring front to the basket game... Centers grab boards, sets screen and take open jump shots....

nowadays Centers are mainly support players...

Also Kids want to be the next Kobe/Lebron... i doubt many want to be the next Dwight.

I agree current rules make it way harder to be a dominant back to the basket big but we see Dwight play in the post 95 percent of the time being successful at a very high level so why don't more bigs do it? Dwight already led his team to the finals, is considered the 1st or 2nd best player in the game and has won 3 straight DPOY awards and is usually considered the highest impact player in the game on both ends.

So I imagine my GM's and coaches would be teaching their guys to be more like Dwight and less like Bargnani. I just don't get it. It can't be that nobody is skilled at the back to the basket game anymore. It has to be what players are being taught and their lack of toughness.

[Clippersfan86]

That Thabeet pick was a GUARANTEED bust imo. I never once thought to myself he could ever be an All-Star center or anything more than a big man off the bench that blocks a shot or two. Pretty sure alot of people saw it, no idea why the Grizzlies picked him that high.

Anyways good point. Probably because the NBA lacks big men so much that when one that's half decent pops up people overrate them. Try to make them out to be something there not. When you think about it a potential center that could average 15\10\2? Would probably go top 3 in today's NBA.

Yup. Like Cousins. Great prospect and great potential right? I don't see him becoming an old fashioned back to the basket 20/13 and 3 blocks type player though like the dominant centers of the 90's. He actually is a very finesse player for his size and depends on his shooting range, great touch in the paint. When is the next center that's gonna be a straight banger going to come a long?

It's like coaches have to force these guys to get into the paint! I mean Drummond looks much closer to Amare than he does Shaq... yet people are proclaiming him the next great center? It's just troubling for me.

[LosBulls]

I agree current rules make it way harder to be a dominant back to the basket big but we see Dwight play in the post 95 percent of the time being successful at a very high level so why don't more bigs do it? Dwight already led his team to the finals, is considered the 1st or 2nd best player in the game and has won 3 straight DPOY awards and is usually considered the highest impact player in the game on both ends.

So I imagine my GM's and coaches would be teaching their guys to be more like Dwight and less like Bargnani. I just don't get it. It can't be that nobody is skilled at the back to the basket game anymore. It has to be what players are being taught and their lack of toughness.

Because Dwight is underrated. Dwight would of gone in the 90s and shitted on Mourning. Shaq and Hakeem would of been the only better centers.

[Clippersfan86]

Because Dwight is underrated. Dwight would of gone in the 90s and shitted on Mourning. Shaq and Hakeem would of been the only better centers.

I think most people acknowledge that Dwight is on the same tier as Mourning, some picking him, others Zo. No doubt he's a very good center. It just sucks that for probably the first era ever... a center is undisputed at the top. I mean the gap between Bogut and Howard is huge and Bogut is a good player. We need some of these center prospects to come in with that post presence.

Bynum has a chance but he's injury prone and is already in his 5th or 6th season. I mean nowadays guys can put up 12 and 7 and be considered top 3 centers. That's sad.

[Bernie Nips]

Oden's still a shot to make it. No one could possibly doubt his ability.

Goddamn knees.

[Clippersfan86]

Oden's still a shot to make it. No one could possibly doubt his ability.

Goddamn knees.

Oden is an excellent prospect but isn't this already his 4th or 5th season coming up? No chance he fully recovers and becomes a dominant center.

[Bernie Nips]

Oden is an excellent prospect but isn't this already his 4th or 5th season coming up? No chance he fully recovers and becomes a dominant center.

Last time he came back from a knee injury, he was putting up these stats (per 36):

16.7 ppg
12.8 rpg
3.4 bpg

So he's still a chance.

[Clippersfan86]

Last time he came back from a knee injury, he was putting up these stats (per 36):

16.7 ppg
12.8 rpg
3.4 bpg

So he's still a chance.

I remember it. I was rooting for the guy... problem is if you play a half a season out of 4 or 5... or w/e he's played.. it's hard to be optimistic. I mean I'm doubtful Bynum can stay healthy let alone Oden.

[G-train]

Because Dwight is underrated. Dwight would of gone in the 90s and shitted on Mourning. Shaq and Hakeem would of been the only better centers.

David Robinson and Patrick Ewing played in the 90's.
Mourning is better than Dwight at all facets of basketball, except perhaps rebounding. Hard to tell what prime Mourning would average in rebounding if he played on the current Magic, so he might be better at that too.

[Miserio]

because current rules, discourage back to the basket games while favoring front to the basket game... Centers grab boards, sets screen and take open jump shots....

nowadays Centers are mainly support players...

Also Kids want to be the next Kobe/Lebron... i doubt many want to be the next Dwight.
Nah. The rules have nothing to do with it. The actual centers are not tough nor talented enough to excel period. What you said about the kids is truth tho.

[eliteballer]

In the last 10 years who hasn't panned out?

Kandi was lazy and didnt love the game

Kwame: I'll give you

Yao: panned out

Dwight: panned out

Oden: Injuries

Bogut: Noted for being a weak draft, still a solid player, led league in blocks last year.

Bynum: would have been #1 pick, has panned out

Okafor: panned out

[A.M.G.]

One of the reasons so many centers don't pan out is injuries. The human body really wasn't meant to be 7'0 tall and 270 pounds (or bigger), so the knees and ankles of big centers naturally have a hard time holding up at the pace of the modern NBA.

I mean if Yao hadn't broken down physically, it would still be a strong debate between him and Dwight for best current center. But like I said, the human body wasn't meant to be that big, let alone play a sport reliant on speed, endurance, and jumping up and down. Few and far between are the genetic freaks like Shaq who rarely get injured despite being massive.

Another factor is the speed that the game is played at these days. A lot of the big boys can't quite keep up or they get tired more quickly with the rate of play, because it's harder to get conditioned at that size. So they take longer to become really good, by which time the aforementioned injuries often start to kick in.

It's also worth noting that due to the lack of quality centers, alot of teams seem to start a really big, strong defensive center (in recent years Brendan Haywood, Jason Collins, Anderson Varejao, Erick Dampier, Jeff Foster) with no real skill, whose main purpose is to prevent the occasional good low-post center (ie. Shaq, Duncan) from completely dominating. So any average low-post centers just get stopped by a guy whose only assignment is to stop them.

You could also argue that really big athletes don't work as hard to develop a high skill level or basketball IQ because they know they'll make the NBA anyway. Or it could be that it's harder (or less likely) for a guy to be co-ordinated at 7 feet.

Lastly, GMs often reach on center prospects because it is so rare for a really good one to come along. Hence, all the busts we see (Thabeet, Sene, Biyombo).

[Clippersfan86]

In the last 10 years who hasn't panned out?

Kandi was lazy and didnt love the game

Kwame: I'll give you

Yao: panned out

Dwight: panned out

Oden: Injuries

Bogut: Noted for being a weak draft, still a solid player, led league in blocks last year.

Bynum: would have been #1 pick, has panned out

Okafor: panned out

Sorry but no dude. Yao was a fantastic center but was injury prone his entire career and just retired at 30 years old. Hardly lived up to hype. If he stayed healthy and played longer then yes he was worth it. As for the rest of your list nobody else has panned out or lived up to the hype besides Dwight. Bogut has stopped progressing and even declined because of that nasty elbow injury. Bynum just finished his 6th season and has only played 82 games once. Not to mention he's only putting up 11 and 9.5 to go with 2 blocks. Good but far from dominant or great.

You listing reasons for these players failing doesn't mean they get off the hook. I'm including injuries into these centers falling short in the OP.

[eliteballer]

...then why make the thread when its apparent injuries are the main cause

[Clippersfan86]

One of the reasons so many centers don't pan out is injuries. The human body really wasn't meant to be 7'0 tall and 270 pounds (or bigger), so the knees and ankles of big centers naturally have a hard time holding up at the pace of the modern NBA.

I mean if Yao hadn't broken down physically, it would still be a strong debate between him and Dwight for best current center. But like I said, the human body wasn't meant to be that big, let alone play a sport reliant on speed, endurance, and jumping up and down. Few and far between are the genetic freaks like Shaq who rarely get injured despite being massive.

Another factor is the speed that the game is played at these days. A lot of the big boys can't quite keep up or they get tired more quickly with the rate of play, because it's harder to get conditioned at that size. So they take longer to become really good, by which time the aforementioned injuries often start to kick in.

It's also worth noting that due to the lack of quality centers, alot of teams seem to start a really big, strong defensive center (in recent years Brendan Haywood, Jason Collins, Anderson Varejao, Erick Dampier, Jeff Foster) with no real skill, whose main purpose is to prevent the occasional good low-post center (ie. Shaq, Duncan) from completely dominating. So any average low-post centers just get stopped by a guy whose only assignment is to stop them.

You could also argue that really big athletes don't work as hard to develop a high skill level or basketball IQ because they know they'll make the NBA anyway. Or it could be that it's harder (or less likely) for a guy to be co-ordinated at 7 feet.

Lastly, GMs often reach on center prospects because it is so rare for a really good one to come along. Hence, all the busts we see (Thabeet, Sene, Biyombo).

Good post :applause: .

[Clippersfan86]

...then why make the thread when its apparent injuries are the main cause

I'm not saying the main cause. I'm saying poor conditioning/injuries are still a part of this thread. Some guys are just injury prone but some like Bynum who had terrible conditioning habits contribute to their injury issues and likely caused some of them.

[millwad]

In the last 10 years who hasn't panned out?

Kandi was lazy and didnt love the game

Kwame: I'll give you

Yao: panned out

Dwight: panned out

Oden: Injuries

Bogut: Noted for being a weak draft, still a solid player, led league in blocks last year.

Bynum: would have been #1 pick, has panned out

Okafor: panned out

This.
Ok, we've had some big guys who failed but many center prospects have failed before too. I think it's more a question of why we don't have guys like Hakeem, Shaq, Mourning, Robinson, Ewing and Mourning anymore like we had in the 90's. Well, the game's changed and Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson and Ewing are all TOP 10 centers ever and every decade can't have 4 of the greatest centers ever.

[G-train]

Dang amg, Biyambo a bust already??

[eliteballer]

One of the reasons so many centers don't pan out is injuries. The human body really wasn't meant to be 7'0 tall and 270 pounds (or bigger), so the knees and ankles of big centers naturally have a hard time holding up at the pace of the modern NBA.

I mean if Yao hadn't broken down physically, it would still be a strong debate between him and Dwight for best current center. But like I said, the human body wasn't meant to be that big, let alone play a sport reliant on speed, endurance, and jumping up and down. Few and far between are the genetic freaks like Shaq who rarely get injured despite being massive.

Another factor is the speed that the game is played at these days. A lot of the big boys can't quite keep up or they get tired more quickly with the rate of play, because it's harder to get conditioned at that size. So they take longer to become really good, by which time the aforementioned injuries often start to kick in.

It's also worth noting that due to the lack of quality centers, alot of teams seem to start a really big, strong defensive center (in recent years Brendan Haywood, Jason Collins, Anderson Varejao, Erick Dampier, Jeff Foster) with no real skill, whose main purpose is to prevent the occasional good low-post center (ie. Shaq, Duncan) from completely dominating. So any average low-post centers just get stopped by a guy whose only assignment is to stop them.

You could also argue that really big athletes don't work as hard to develop a high skill level or basketball IQ because they know they'll make the NBA anyway. Or it could be that it's harder (or less likely) for a guy to be co-ordinated at 7 feet.

Lastly, GMs often reach on center prospects because it is so rare for a really good one to come along. Hence, all the busts we see (Thabeet, Sene, Biyombo).

I think the human body can handle 7 foot, as long as the weight and muscle mass is kept under control. It's when you start to get to 7-3 and up(Yao, Sabonis, Sampson, Muresan, etc) where I think the body wasnt meant to be.

[Clippersfan86]

This.
Ok, we've had some big guys who failed but many center prospects have failed before too. I think it's more a question of why we don't have guys like Hakeem, Shaq, Mourning, Robinson, Ewing and Mourning anymore like we had in the 90's. Well, the game's changed and Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson and Ewing are all TOP 10 centers ever and every decade can't have 4 of the greatest centers ever.

Still doesn't explain why this decade is the weakest center decade BY FAR. It's not even simply that they aren't good enough. It's like Shaq has said many times. There are no true centers left in the game besides Dwight. What he means is traditional back to the basket scorers, defensive anchors.

This can't be mere coincidence.

[AMISTILLILL]

I'd say an overall lack of center prospects in the first place certainly plays a part. I think we're harsher critics on the ones who don't live up to expectations because the draft is rarely flooded with hyped up talent at the center position. If there were as many centers as there were guards or SF's drafted as top picks every year we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[G-train]

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/Pekovic%202.jpg

real talks :pimp:

[outbreak]

Another factor is also the hype. Alot of the bigs that get hyped up have average skills which don't translate to the NBA but are dominant in high school/college mainly based on their size rather than their talent set.
Also need to look at how they've been trained all their life. A bunch of them have probably had coaches who don't know how to teach post moves so just teach them regular shooting skills and so they struggle to pick up the more traditional center moves at an older age. Also they probably got lazy at a young age and settle on beating people just with size and got a big heads when no other kids could touch them.

[824]

I think the human body can handle 7 foot, as long as the weight and muscle mass is kept under control. It's when you start to get to 7-3 and up(Yao, Sabonis, Sampson, Muresan, etc) where I think the body wasnt meant to be.

7 footers have health issues generally, that's a lot of work for one heart. Sure, it can 'handle' being tall. It doesn't like it.

[millwad]

Still doesn't explain why this decade is the weakest center decade BY FAR. It's not even simply that they aren't good enough. It's like Shaq has said many times. There are no true centers left in the game besides Dwight. What he means is traditional back to the basket scorers, defensive anchors.

This can't be mere coincidence.

This decade is one year old, I guess you mean last decade.
Well, we had Shaq, Yao Ming, Howard, Ben Wallace, PF/C Duncan and those guys would be great in any decade and era no matter what.

Yes, I do realize that those guys ain't enough to beat any other decade of center ballers but the game is also changing. We have tall guys like Stoudemire (6-10), Garnett (6-11), Nowitzki (7-0), Bosh (6-10), Al Jefferson (6-10), Bargnani (7-0) and many more who are schooled to play small although they have center bodies. I think it's more a question of trying to school the tall players to be more all-round and because of that the art of the center game gets lost.. The guys I just mentioned would probably be centers if they'd be playing in earlier era's.

We've seen great PF's since the 90's and they get taller, bigger and stronger for every year but we are at the same time missing out on the centers.

[eliteballer]

I can agree with that, but when you have guys like Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, Ewing, Vlade etc. etc. who play at a high level in professional sports for over a decade I dont think its something which is all that crippling, at least not more so than 6-6 350 pound linemen who need oxygen masks in the NFL.

[millwad]

I can agree with that, but when you have guys like Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, Ewing, Vlade etc. etc. who play at a high level in professional sports for over a decade I dont think its something which is all that crippling, at least not more so than 6-6 350 pound linemen who need oxygen masks in the NFL.

I actually read a really interesting report regarding this issue. I searched for it now but I couldn't find it, I think it said that players over 7'2 had a much higher risk of getting injured compared to players under 7'2 because of various issues.

[Clippersfan86]

This decade is one year old, I guess you mean last decade.
Well, we had Shaq, Yao Ming, Howard, Ben Wallace, PF/C Duncan and those guys would be great in any decade and era no matter what.

Yes, I do realize that those guys ain't enough to beat any other decade of center ballers but the game is also changing. We have tall guys like Stoudemire (6-10), Garnett (6-11), Nowitzki (7-0), Bosh (6-10), Al Jefferson (6-10), Bargnani (7-0) and many more who are schooled to play small although they have center bodies. I think it's more a question of trying to school the tall players to be more all-round and because of that the art of the center game gets lost.. The guys I just mentioned would probably be centers if they'd be playing in earlier era's.

We've seen great PF's since the 90's and they get taller, bigger and stronger for every year but we are at the same time missing out on the centers.

I guess I should of elaborated on the decade thing. Before I mentioned 8 seasons since Dwight was drafted (by time this draft/year comes). I'm talking about dominant prospects, not players on the decline like 05 Shaq and Ben Wallace etc. It seems like center prospects, even the hyped ones rarely become a dominant force like Dwight 7 years ago.

[Clippersfan86]

I actually read a really interesting report regarding this issue. I searched for it now but I couldn't find it, I think it said that players over 7'2 had a much higher risk of getting injured compared to players under 7'2 because of various issues.

7 footers also have a much shorter lifespan typically. It all has to do with how hard your organs and body have to work just to do simple functions compared to an average sized human.

[Rake2204]

I actually read a really interesting report regarding this issue. I searched for it now but I couldn't find it, I think it said that players over 7'2 had a much higher risk of getting injured compared to players under 7'2 because of various issues.
There was a real solid Sports Illustrated article about 7 footers earlier this year. An excerpt:

The relative life expectancy of a 7-footer is foggy, but scientists do know that a human being's medically optimal height is considerably closer to 6'1" than it is to 7'1". Grow nearer to the latter mark, says John Komlos, an economist who studies height at Ludwig-Maximilian University in Munich, and "health diminishes: back, heart, bones. Mortality rate rises." Adds Gowriharan Thaiyananthan, co--medical director of the Chapman Neurosurgical and Spine Institute in Orange, Calif., and a neurosurgeon who's operated on four 7-footers himself, "Our bodies were not designed to be 7 feet tall. That's like turning a car into a stretch limo: Things work, but it's not what nature decided is our optimal state. You're pushing every organ system to its limit."

When college and professional teams evaluate such players, they screen for height-connected pathologies like Marfan syndrome (a connective tissue disorder, the detection of which ended the basketball career of 7'1" Clarence Holloway at Louisville in 2008) and gigantism (a condition usually related to a tumor that causes the pituitary gland to overproduce growth hormone). Both diseases, while rare, can result in fatal heart malfunction. "Anyone who's 7 feet tall should be evaluated for a growth disorder," Melmed warns. Gigantism, for instance, is especially scarce—there have been only 100 or so reported cases in the United States—but the NBA has employed several players afflicted with the condition, including former Bullets and Nets center Gheorghe Muresan (7'7"), 2004 Jazz first-round draft pick Pavel Podkolzin (7'5") and Josh Moore (7'2"), a onetime Clippers center.

Then there are orthopedic issues, the kind of structural weaknesses one would expect from an aging stretch limo. It would be one thing to build a mammoth, perfectly symmetrical car. (Dwight Howard, 6'11", is the preferred model for orthopedists.) "But most big men are not proportioned the way most little men are," says Thomas Schmalzried, a 6'10" orthopedic surgeon in Los Angeles and a former Stanford center who includes himself in that group. The wearing down of one's lower back, knees and feet looms as a distinct risk. "In terms of degenerative issues, it looks like 7-footers may be ahead of the curve for what you'd expect for their age," Thaiyananthan says.


Also this:


The curve shaped by the CDC's available statistics, however, does allow one to estimate the number of American men between the ages of 20 and 40 who are 7 feet or taller: fewer than 70 in all. Which indicates, by further extrapolation, that while the probability of, say, an American between 6'6" and 6'8" being an NBA player today stands at a mere 0.07%, it's a staggering 17% for someone 7 feet or taller.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1187806/1/index.htm

[eliteballer]

There have always been tall and short PF's and C's.

The Rockets were starting 6-6 chuck hayes or whoever at center a year or two ago.

6-7 Marion averaged 20/10/2/2 on those suns teams

Randolph

Brand

Ben Wallace

Okafor

Dwight

Back in the day you've had Kemp, Baker, Webber, Coleman, Nance, McHale etc.

whats the size diff between Zo/Larry johnson Hornets and Amare/Marion suns?

The position that has changed the most size wise in history is SG/SF. PG and the big positions have remained relatively stable.

[DRose1899]

7 footers also have a much shorter lifespan typically. It all has to do with how hard your organs and body have to work just to do simple functions compared to an average sized human.
Maybe most 7-footer must weigh less muscle n mass to compete in basketball with less injury, shape like pau n duncan have maybe is the most ideal for 7-footer.

[ZenMaster]

I've never seen a face up center lead a team to a ring.

Dirk's a face up 7 footer.

[millwad]

I guess I should of elaborated on the decade thing. Before I mentioned 8 seasons since Dwight was drafted (by time this draft/year comes). I'm talking about dominant prospects, not players on the decline like 05 Shaq and Ben Wallace etc. It seems like center prospects, even the hyped ones rarely become a dominant force like Dwight 7 years ago.

Well, both Shaq and Ben Wallace had their primes in the last decade..

And again, I think it's more a question players getting schooled differently compared to how it used to be. The PF-position nowadays is full of guys who in other era's would have been centers so alot of great prospect gets lost in the PF-jungle..

We haven't really had any great center prospects since Yao and Dwight and the both of them were really hyped. Then we had Bynum and he can obviously ball when he's healthy. Oden has been unlucky with his injuries, he has all the tools to be great.

I don't know who the really hyped prospects were who choked. Sure, we have Olowokandi and that guy was lazee as hell, then we had that guy from Georgia who also sucked and of course Kwame, other than that I don't really know any really hyped big guys who choked big time in the pro's.

[Collie]

Because there are very few 7 footers in the world, and even fewer that are actually good. It's just a rarity thing. I guarantee you, even if we have the current rules, Hakeem would still be dropping 24-26 ppg and 12 rpg.

[ZenMaster]

I agree current rules make it way harder to be a dominant back to the basket big but we see Dwight play in the post 95 percent of the time being successful at a very high level so why don't more bigs do it? Dwight already led his team to the finals, is considered the 1st or 2nd best player in the game and has won 3 straight DPOY awards and is usually considered the highest impact player in the game on both ends.

So I imagine my GM's and coaches would be teaching their guys to be more like Dwight and less like Bargnani. I just don't get it. It can't be that nobody is skilled at the back to the basket game anymore. It has to be what players are being taught and their lack of toughness.


But does Howard play that well because the magic use him like they do, or does the magic use him like they do because he plays that well?

Orlando entire offense revolves around him and his team is set up to compliment him. They run a lot of 4out 1in offense and not many other teams can do that as well because they don't have an inside player like Howard.
U could run it around Gasol but he's not as good on defense so wouldn't work nearly as well.

[ZenMaster]

while the probability of, say, an American between 6'6" and 6'8" being an NBA player today stands at a mere 0.07%, it's a staggering 17% for someone 7 feet or taller.

That can't be right? How did they figure that out?

[SourGrapes]

Op didn't like the thought of Andre Drummond stealing some of Blake griffin's thunder and so made this thread

[SourGrapes]

Still doesn't explain why this decade is the weakest center decade BY FAR. It's not even simply that they aren't good enough. It's like Shaq has said many times. There are no true centers left in the game besides Dwight. What he means is traditional back to the basket scorers, defensive anchors.

This can't be mere coincidence.

Bynum is far of a traditional, back to the basket center than Dwight

[Clippersfan86]

Dirk's a face up 7 footer.

7 footer who started his career at SF and now plays PF. I'm talking about a center as this thread is about center prospects.

[Clippersfan86]

Well, both Shaq and Ben Wallace had their primes in the last decade..

And again, I think it's more a question players getting schooled differently compared to how it used to be. The PF-position nowadays is full of guys who in other era's would have been centers so alot of great prospect gets lost in the PF-jungle..

We haven't really had any great center prospects since Yao and Dwight and the both of them were really hyped. Then we had Bynum and he can obviously ball when he's healthy. Oden has been unlucky with his injuries, he has all the tools to be great.

I don't know who the really hyped prospects were who choked. Sure, we have Olowokandi and that guy was lazee as hell, then we had that guy from Georgia who also sucked and of course Kwame, other than that I don't really know any really hyped big guys who choked big time in the pro's.

They don't have to be overly hyped in particular. How come almost no center prospects become superstars etc is all I meant. I guess the rarity of players that big+ what they are being taught now is the simplest answer.

[G-train]

7 footer who started his career at SF and now plays PF. I'm talking about a center as this thread is about center prospects.

Still a small forward in my book. He doesn't play like a power forward at all for mine.

[A.M.G.]

Dang amg, Biyambo a bust already??
:oldlol: That was half joke/half seriousness.

[Rake2204]

That can't be right? How did they figure that out?
Well, here's the preceding piece of the quote in addition, if that helps:


Fact: An actual accounting of 7-footers, domestic or global, does not exist in any reliable form. National surveys by the Center for Disease Control list no head count or percentile at that height. (Only 5% of adult American males are 6'3" or taller.) "In terms of the growth spectrum, 7 feet is simply extreme," explains endocrinologist Shlomo Melmed, dean of the medical faculty at L.A.'s Cedars-Sinai Medical Center. The term 7-footer is itself a kind of outer limit, a far-off threshold beyond which precise measurement seems superfluous. A 6'4" guard isn't a 6-footer, after all.
I'm not sure which part you're saying can't be right though. I'm guessing they took the amount of 6'6''-6'8'' American males and divided it by the amount of men that height in the NBA? With the 7-footers, the total amount in America (70) divided by how many are (or have been) in the NBA?

[Cali Syndicate]

One of the reasons so many centers don't pan out is injuries. The human body really wasn't meant to be 7'0 tall and 270 pounds (or bigger), so the knees and ankles of big centers naturally have a hard time holding up at the pace of the modern NBA.

I mean if Yao hadn't broken down physically, it would still be a strong debate between him and Dwight for best current center. But like I said, the human body wasn't meant to be that big, let alone play a sport reliant on speed, endurance, and jumping up and down. Few and far between are the genetic freaks like Shaq who rarely get injured despite being massive.

Another factor is the speed that the game is played at these days. A lot of the big boys can't quite keep up or they get tired more quickly with the rate of play, because it's harder to get conditioned at that size. So they take longer to become really good, by which time the aforementioned injuries often start to kick in.

It's also worth noting that due to the lack of quality centers, alot of teams seem to start a really big, strong defensive center (in recent years Brendan Haywood, Jason Collins, Anderson Varejao, Erick Dampier, Jeff Foster) with no real skill, whose main purpose is to prevent the occasional good low-post center (ie. Shaq, Duncan) from completely dominating. So any average low-post centers just get stopped by a guy whose only assignment is to stop them.

You could also argue that really big athletes don't work as hard to develop a high skill level or basketball IQ because they know they'll make the NBA anyway. Or it could be that it's harder (or less likely) for a guy to be co-ordinated at 7 feet.

Lastly, GMs often reach on center prospects because it is so rare for a really good one to come along. Hence, all the busts we see (Thabeet, Sene, Biyombo).

Yao Ming OWNED Dwight. If he was still playing he would still be owning him. Yao was BY FAR the best center of the last decade outside of Shaq.

[ZenMaster]

7 footer who started his career at SF and now plays PF. I'm talking about a center as this thread is about center prospects.

My point is you worry too much about a the position and not about the player.

So what Dirk isn't designated a center? He's 7 feet tall and can do things most 7 feet tall players can only dream of. Why shouldn't he get compared to other 7fters? He plays PF because he CAN, not just because.
If Dirks youth coaches would have focused on making him a center because he was tall, playing with his back to the basket and all, he would never have played in the NBA because he would be nothing but a center without physique and athleticism. Instead he's one of the greatest offensive players ever and former MVP. I bet if you would have said in the 1970's that one of the greatest shooters ever would be 7 feet tall people would have laughed, nonetheless it happened.

[Clippersfan86]

My point is you worry too much about a the position and not about the player.

So what Dirk isn't designated a center? He's 7 feet tall and can do things most 7 feet tall players can only dream of. Why shouldn't he get compared to other 7fters? He plays PF because he CAN, not just because.
If Dirks youth coaches would have focused on making him a center because he was tall, playing with his back to the basket and all, he would never have played in the NBA because he would be nothing but a center without physique and athleticism. Instead he's one of the greatest offensive players ever and former MVP. I bet if you would have said in the 1970's that one of the greatest shooters ever would be 7 feet tall people would have laughed, nonetheless it happened.

Dirk is NOTHING like a center. Sure he has a nice high post game but he doesn't defend the paint, doesn't set screens particularly well, doesn't block shots and doesn't go to post moves.

Just because he's 7 feet tall doesn't qualify him for this thread. Read my title did. "TOP CENTER PROSPECTS". Not top bigmen prospects. There are 10+ all star worthy PF's in the game right now and maybe 2-3 all star worthy centers tops and in the 80's, 90's or even earlier decades they wouldn't be all stars besides Dwight.

[ZenMaster]

Dirk is NOTHING like a center. Sure he has a nice high post game but he doesn't defend the paint, doesn't set screens particularly well, doesn't block shots and doesn't go to post moves.

Just because he's 7 feet tall doesn't qualify him for this thread. Read my title did. "TOP CENTER PROSPECTS". Not top bigmen prospects. There are 10+ all star worthy PF's in the game right now and maybe 2-3 all star worthy centers tops and in the 80's, 90's or even earlier decades they wouldn't be all stars besides Dwight.

I suppose we're not really on the same level of thought.

[Clippersfan86]

I suppose we're not really on the same level of thought.

It's not about differing opinions man :facepalm . I'm asking why dominant center prospects are so rare and some of the hyped ones don't pan out for a multitude of reasons. The game has very good bigmen but most of them are PF like Dirk. The reality is that no matter how good a PF is... they will never impact the game like a dominant C. Compare Barkley and Malone to prime Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Kareem etc if you need an example. Even Duncan is now often considered a center and not a PF by many because the second half of his career including in the playoffs during his championship runs he played center the last 2 rings.

[knicksman]

Dirk is NOTHING like a center. Sure he has a nice high post game but he doesn't defend the paint, doesn't set screens particularly well, doesn't block shots and doesn't go to post moves.

Just because he's 7 feet tall doesn't qualify him for this thread. Read my title did. "TOP CENTER PROSPECTS". Not top bigmen prospects. There are 10+ all star worthy PF's in the game right now and maybe 2-3 all star worthy centers tops and in the 80's, 90's or even earlier decades they wouldn't be all stars besides Dwight.

because the centers who defend gets injured. Thats why most pfs right now dont care about defense. Coz if they do, they would end up like perkins, noah, bynum, etc who are all injury prones. Oden and Yao are the best example.

[knightfall88]

the problem is you approach the basket face up and you can't get a finger on you. you approach the basket back first and you are allowed to get ass raped.

It is sterns fault

[DetroitPiston]

Still doesn't explain why this decade is the weakest center decade BY FAR. It's not even simply that they aren't good enough. It's like Shaq has said many times. There are no true centers left in the game besides Dwight. What he means is traditional back to the basket scorers, defensive anchors.

This can't be mere coincidence.

Because there are certain time periods where certain positions are just lacking in an overall sense. It happens in cycles.

Right now, we have a huge surplus of great wing players (SFs/SGs). I won't be surprised if in 10 years we'll have a debate about the lack of great wing players while there might be a surplus of PFs or something.

[Clippersfan86]

the problem is you approach the basket face up and you can't get a finger on you. you approach the basket back first and you are allowed to get ass raped.

It is sterns fault

Yea definitely players that DO play back to the basket get abused the most. Blake Griffin and Dwight lead the league in points in the paint and got more hard fouls, cheap shots and flagrant fouls than anyone else in the NBA and it's not even close. I'm not sure why the NBA is catering to wing players and not the bigs who are typically who leads teams to championships or the finals.

[Rowe]

Because there are certain time periods where certain positions are just lacking in an overall sense. It happens in cycles.

Right now, we have a huge surplus of great wing players (SFs/SGs). I won't be surprised if in 10 years we'll have a debate about the lack of great wing players while there might be a surplus of PFs or something.

Exactly.

70's was ther era of the Pivot Forward.
80's was the era of great Wing players.
90's was the era of great C's.
00's is the era of great PG's & PF's.

[Clippersfan86]

Exactly.

70's was ther era of the Pivot Forward.
80's was the era of great Wing players.
90's was the era of great C's.
00's is the era of great PG's & PF's.

Very interesting cycle. I wonder why it happens.

[bizil]

I think one thing that happened was that the game got bigger AND more skilled in the mid 90's in the draft. U had seven footers gettin drafted like KG, Dirk, Sheed, Duncan, etc. But Duncan played PF, when he easily had the skillset to play center. KG, Dirk, and Sheed played a lot of SF when they first came in the L. So a lot of the most talented 7 footers weren't playin center anymore. U had great shooting finesse 7 footers like a Sikma who stayed at center AND were double digit rebounders every year. A guy like Dirk, while a very good rebounder, wasn't as good of a rebounder as Sikma. And Dirk is really a PF-SF anyway. Just like KG is. So the game got bigger and skilled, but the Center spot ended up paying the price.

Up until the late 90's to 2000s, the C spot was usually well stacked. Hell look at the 70's and all those great centers. U have an array of all types of centers around. The 80's and most of the 90's followed suit. So as many have said, its a cycle. Hell look at the SG spot. At the beginning of the decade it was a golden age with Kobe, TMac, AI, Wade, Ray Ray, Pierce, Vince, and Ginobli all doing there thing. But injuries and guys switching to SF have the position not as deep as it used to be. PG is clearly the deepest positon in the L right now. So like many have said it's a cycle.

[D-Wade316]

"I wanna be like Mike" mentality.

[KingRaptor]

Big men take a longer time to develop they need more than 1 or 2 years of college ball.

[chips93]

i think its just a combination of new rule changes that make the game more perimter orientated, so having a defensive center is more valuable, a center who can block shots, play good defense against pck and rolls, and just make up for mistakes on the perimeter.

the new rules like hand checking, as well as far more leniency on moving picks allows perimter players into the lane a lot easier, making a big man who can defend the paint a lot more valuable. think about the average starting center in the league, his role is usually mostlyto play defense. think about the last few title teams, they all had defensive minded centers.

ontop of that, i think that there is justa coincidental lack of powerul low post scorers. there just isnt many guys who have the natural gifts to play that style of basketball. i dont think its just a shift in the rules, or the environment of the nba that has caused a lack of centers, itsjust a lack of a few guys. i still think the dominant 90s centers wouold still dominate today, regardless of rule changes, we just happen to be going through a coincidental 'dry patch' of quality offesive centers.

[abuC]

All the big kids want to play on the perimeter, I mean look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSVCss90BRM


Every shot he took was outside of 17 feet.

[MasterDurant24]

Because Dwight is underrated. Dwight would of gone in the 90s and shitted on Mourning. Shaq and Hakeem would of been the only better centers.
D-Rob was better in every way. Ewing in his prime too. Dwight might have been better than 'Zo, but wouldn't have dominated him.

[Kevin_Gamble]

because the centers who defend gets injured. Thats why most pfs right now dont care about defense. Coz if they do, they would end up like perkins, noah, bynum, etc who are all injury prones. Oden and Yao are the best example.

What a load of crap. For an example, you wanna know how Bynum gets injured? Once he landed on Lamar's foot, another time Kobe ran into his knee, another time he stepped on a guy's foot as he was running back, and another time he just hurt his achilles as he was running back. Guys don't get injured because they play defense.

[eliteballer]

Up until the late 90's to 2000s, the C spot was usually well stacked.

The C spot has never been "well stacked". Outside of the top 6 or 7 centers the league was littered with garbage in the 90's too.

[knicksman]

What a load of crap. For an example, you wanna know how Bynum gets injured? Once he landed on Lamar's foot, another time Kobe ran into his knee, another time he stepped on a guy's foot as he was running back, and another time he just hurt his achilles as he was running back. Guys don't get injured because they play defense.

I knew youre an idiot so you have no idea about this. Thats why the big men who can score are now designated as pf while those who defend as C.

[senelcoolidge]

I think the high schoolers and one and done big men are a big reason for the drop off in talent. These guys come in as projects and many just don't pan out. Players that stay in school 3 to 4 years have much more maturity and tend to be more fundamentally sound than guys straight out of high school or one year of college players. Getting paid millions at 18 or 19 also effects some of these guys that just don't work hard.