Can we stop underestimating Kobe as an Athlete

[eliteballer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55ngZg3BGvU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or3UimGgLEo&t=7m47s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzsvbheXscg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f78mXLMTzFI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wprY9UVpMc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3AZ62Lpj1I&t=4m45s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjKIm9T7abA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4-gthMRDPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrB6JjQbQko

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34ziNwOZz3M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=****3N4_C3w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv52J8anZVE&t=0m19s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3nSuERhiF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqt1q-WxIBc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmE4L44OsU&feature=related&t=2m30s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DMs2nweH5Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF-c5_gioXU&t=6m47s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKKb72yyyeI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOgeMwMXAV4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-PrZXuSrrM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvXxHptH0pI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebyZPftASdI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqInM3wMvHk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4NrstkGUGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJEBF5udE5k&t=2m13s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37o6nEOBRDA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoZxnTJZHsI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPml4tkA7lc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BASluvypTRA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ai1J-xuxQU&t=2m54s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyy0x1fXqeI&feature=related

[Maniak]

Why cant you label the videos?

eg Kobe Blocks Lewis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55ngZg3BGvU)

Especially with this many videos.

[PJR]

Get off his meat. Who understates Kobe as an athlete when referring to his athletic prime? Everyone knows he was a great athlete. Great leaper off two feet, great body control, pretty good first step.

[DuMa]

for such a great athlete, why does he chuck a lot?

[G-train]

I'm a Kobe fan, and believe him to be super athletic.
However he isn't in the Jordan/Carter discussion as the best as his fluidity and control in the air is a notch below.

[eliteballer]

...Carter has no case in terms of fluidity. He didnt have a first step on the same level and his lateral quicks were nowhere near.

[G-train]

...Carter has no case in terms of fluidity. He didnt have a first step on the same level and his lateral quicks were nowhere near.

fluidity and control in the air I am talking about, I'll amend post.

[Miller for 3]

Prime Kobe was a better athlete than MJ

[Maga_1]

Prime Kobe was a better athlete than MJ

lol at that

[eliteballer]

fluidity and control in the air I am talking about, I'll amend post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmE4L44OsU&feature=related&t=2m30s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebyZPftASdI

[G-train]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmE4L44OsU&feature=related&t=2m30s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebyZPftASdI

2 examples? Are you saying you disagree with my comment?
I can post 100 Jordan/Carter finishes that exhibit a mixture of incredible leaping ability and control. He didn't even barely jump in those shots, and I've seen those shots by other players numerous times.
They aren't all time great body control shots.

[eliteballer]

2 examples? Are you saying you disagree with my comment?
I can post 100 Jordan/Carter finishes that exhibit a mixture of incredible leaping ability and control. He didn't even barely jump in those shots, and I've seen those shots by other players numerous times.
They aren't all time great body control shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzsvbheXscg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4NrstkGUGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUOUSGGkoP8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJEBF5udE5k&t=2m13s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyy0x1fXqeI&feature=related

[G-train]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzsvbheXscg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4NrstkGUGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUOUSGGkoP8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJEBF5udE5k&t=2m13s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyy0x1fXqeI&feature=related

Thats my point, he isn't as good as Jordan or Carter at finshes with fluidity and total body control.

[eliteballer]

Thats my point, he isn't as good as Jordan or Carter at finshes with fluidity and total body control.

Why dont you pull out your 100's of Carter finishes that are better

[G-train]

Because it like pullign pictures of who has bigger kazookers, busty heart or natalie portman.

[G-train]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJd__BtXSac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVnNSS8Rw98

there is 2, just youtube carter reverse layup for more. He did them prety regularly.
His control is at near Jordan level.
Jordan's control while finishes is basically what makes him better than Bryant IMO.

[eliteballer]

How are those better than these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzsvbheXscg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4NrstkGUGA

The 2nd one is the exact same thing

[G-train]

How are those better than these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzsvbheXscg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4NrstkGUGA

The 2nd one is the exact same thing

He isn't as fluid or as controlled as Carter in the air.
Go educate yourself, I'm not a qualified baby sitter.

[sekachu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55ngZg3BGvU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or3UimGgLEo&t=7m47s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3AZ62Lpj1I&t=4m45s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjKIm9T7abA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4-gthMRDPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrB6JjQbQko

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34ziNwOZz3M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=****3N4_C3w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3nSuERhiF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqt1q-WxIBc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmE4L44OsU&feature=related&t=2m30s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DMs2nweH5Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF-c5_gioXU&t=6m47s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKKb72yyyeI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOgeMwMXAV4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-PrZXuSrrM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f78mXLMTzFI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvXxHptH0pI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebyZPftASdI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqInM3wMvHk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wprY9UVpMc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4NrstkGUGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJEBF5udE5k&t=2m13s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzsvbheXscg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37o6nEOBRDA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoZxnTJZHsI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPml4tkA7lc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUOUSGGkoP8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyy0x1fXqeI&feature=related



Kobe is a great athlete but when he got compared with certain athlete perimetier player like Michael Jordan, vince carter, lebron jame, wade, T-Mac, he ain't in the same class

[pauk]

most of those footages are between 6 to 15 years old....

kobe was a freak athlete back in the days ofcourse....

not sure about today

[ihatetimthomas]

Honestly, too many people try to prove he was a great athlete and too many people try to disprove that he was a great athlete. In his athletic prime, he was a elite athlete. Not on the level of a guy like Vince, but great nonetheless. He has lost some of his athleticism, but he is still a good athlete. He now makes up for it with solid fundamentals and top notch agility.

Honestly, who cares if he wasnt as athletic as MJ, Lebron or Vince? Is that any reason to degrade him? In terms of basketball skills, fundamentals and versatility, there are not many players in the history of the game that can match him.

[Jacks3]

Kobe is a great athlete but when he got compared with certain athlete perimetier player like Michael Jordan, vince carter, lebron jame, wade, T-Mac, he ain't in the same class
Not sure if serious.

[StarJordan]

if he was he would shoot 50% and play 82 games a season.

[G-train]

Honestly, too many people try to prove he was a great athlete and too many people try to disprove that he was a great athlete. In his athletic prime, he was a elite athlete. Not on the level of a guy like Vince, but great nonetheless. He has lost some of his athleticism, but he is still a good athlete. He now makes up for it with solid fundamentals and top notch agility.

Honestly, who cares if he wasnt as athletic as MJ, Lebron or Vince? Is that any reason to degrade him? In terms of basketball skills, fundamentals and versatility, there are not many players in the history of the game that can match him.

I didn't degrade him, I simply mentioned I don't think he was as good as Jordan or Vince, but a slight notch below. That actually praises him.
Then elitesomethin chose to turn it into an argument, when there is no argument to be had. What I said is true.

[bstickq1]

How are those better than these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzsvbheXscg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4NrstkGUGA

The 2nd one is the exact same thing
I'm a big kobe fan, but cmon, look at this body control by Vince -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSsE737-wHk

[eliteballer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF-c5_gioXU&t=7m00s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmE4L44OsU&feature=related&t=2m30s

:confusedshrug:

[bstickq1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF-c5_gioXU&t=7m00s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmE4L44OsU&feature=related&t=2m30s

:confusedshrug:
You think those are comparable? Wow.

[alwaysunny]

I don't wanna downplay Kobe but if you're trying to justify Kobe having a better body control than Vince:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKwFzcnbe08 (imo 3rd GOAT move behind MJ's layup against the Nets and Dr. J's baseline reverse)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSMwoMYaeUM&feature=related

Show me ONE move by Kobe that tops those two.

[Jacks3]

And yet Kobe in his prime was better at getting to rim and at finishing. :pimp:

[Xover]

if he's not an athlete.. then dreams of becoming an athlete is inimaginable for other players in the NBA

[bstickq1]

And also, I consider this dunk by Vince one of the smoothest and most fluid of all time, Kobe could never dream of doing it -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShcDhZ75zro&t=1m0s

[Jacks3]

Just like Vince can only dream of being half the player Bryant is. :oldlol:

[bstickq1]

Just like Vince can only dream of being half the player Bryant is. :oldlol:
Just like you can only dream up posts that only you can see.

[andgar923]

I don't think anybody underestimates Kobe as an athlete. He's clearly an above avg athlete, just not in the same level as other player's.

[Jacks3]

lol above average.:roll:

[andgar923]

lol above average.:roll:

So are you saying that he's not?

[with malice]

I don't think anybody underestimates Kobe as an athlete. He's clearly an above avg athlete, just not in the same level as other player's.
Do you watch basketball? The NBA in particular...

[Cali Syndicate]

And also, I consider this dunk by Vince one of the smoothest and most fluid of all time, Kobe could never dream of doing it -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShcDhZ75zro&t=1m0s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf4H3OR-7IE&t=0m28s

[Jacks3]

So are you saying that he's not?
He's one of the five best athletes at his position ever. One of the best athletes in the league during his prime. I'd say that's a bit more than "above-average". :rolleyes:

[bstickq1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf4H3OR-7IE&t=0m28s
I can't even swing my arm like that just standing there, it's like he almost dislocates his shoulder.

[andgar923]

He's one of the five best athletes at his position ever. One of the best athletes in the league during his prime. I'd say that's a bit more than "above-average". :rolleyes:

So, he's above above average?:confusedshrug:

And I don't even know if he is a top 5 at his position ever to be honest. He may indeed be a top 3 'player' at that position, but there's been better athletes at the 2 guard (although not as good players).

[Jacks3]

He is indisputably a top 2 player at the SG position. lol @ "may be".

And yes, he's clearly a top 5 athlete at SG.

Jordan
Drexler
Wade
Bryant
David Thompson

T-Mac I guess.

He's a elite athlete. Just not GOAT level ala Jordan/LeBron. I think that's fair.

[andgar923]

He is indisputably a top 2 player at the SG position. lol @ "may be".

And yes, he's clearly a top 5 athlete at SG.

Jordan
Drexler
Wade
Bryant
David Thompson

T-Mac I guess.

He's a elite athlete. Just not GOAT level ala Jordan/LeBron. I think that's fair.

I never said he wasn't 'elite' did I?

People need to understand context tho. I think the main reason this thread was created was because we rarely include him in the same convo as VC and MJ. But that doesn't mean that he isn't an elite athlete.

Btw.... here's some other players that are better athletes:

Spreewell
Francis
Rider
JR Smith
Stansbury (?)
G. Wilkins
Minor
Augmon
Eddie Jones
Tmac

Those are just a few off the top that are better athletes (not just better leapers.... which there's even more of). Not to say that they're far better athletes than him, and some may be in fact on the same level (very close call with some).

[Jacks3]

Spreewell
Francis
Rider
JR Smith
Stansbury (?)
G. Wilkins
Minor
Augmon
Tmac


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[andgar923]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
go ahead and laugh all you want, it's true for most of them and very arguable for the rest.

A. They were all superior leapers
B. It's arguable that all but maybe 2 had the same type of control, speed, agility etc. but if anything were right on par with Kobe's abilities.

So.... if they could all jump higher AND either have slightly better athletic abilities along/or on par.... it makes them better... no? :confusedshrug:

[nayte]

I hate it when people just use verticlal leap as a definition of athlete..
Yeah Vince can jump higher then Kobe but overall..nah..
In saying that I still think there are more athletic players in the league then Kobe both now and then..

[thejumpa]

I hate it when people refer to vertical leap when they are talking about athleticism too. Body control, agility, explosiveness, speed/quickness....what about those? Kobe has all of that. Yeah, he's not LeBron or MJ...but he doesn't need to be. Shit, he wasn't even TMac or Wade. Just a solid all around athlete that had insane explosiveness.

[Cali Syndicate]

go ahead and laugh all you want, it's true for most of them and very arguable for the rest.

A. They were all superior leapers
B. It's arguable that all but maybe 2 had the same type of control, speed, agility etc. but if anything were right on par with Kobe's abilities.

So.... if they could all jump higher AND either have slightly better athletic abilities along/or on par.... it makes them better... no? :confusedshrug:

Harold Miner was an incredible athlete.

[D-Wade316]

Kobe is an overrated athlete. He gets injured despite shooting jumpers. At 33, he is rapidly declining

[with malice]

Kobe is an overrated athlete. He gets injured despite shooting jumpers.
Do you even realise how ridiculous this makes you look?

[nayte]

Do you even realise how ridiculous this makes you look?

Hey Don.we used to chat on the aussie yahoo msg boards.....ive still been having a look at ya website..admittidly not as much these days..

[LBJ 23]

He was a great athlete. He just wasn't one of those freaks of nature you see once in a lifetime(Shaq, Jordan, Vince, Lebron), which certainly is not an insult.


You rarely see a player who has it all, well Jordan was one. He had unreal athleticism and exceptional skills and that's one of the main reasons why he is the GOAT. You give Kobe Lebron's athleticism and he is probably in the discussion for the goat spot, and vice versa, you give Lebron Kobe's skills and he is also challenging no.1 spot.

[with malice]

Hey Don.we used to chat on the aussie yahoo msg boards.....ive still been having a look at ya website..admittidly not as much these days..
Hahaha... holy crap! Who were you on Y7?

[nayte]

While not totally on topic...I just watched James white try to touch the top of the backboard.and get so so so freaken close..damn that is jumping high..ha...hmm now where is he ??

[nayte]

Hahaha... holy crap! Who were you on Y7?

haha yep..i was goin under mandati..

[with malice]

Nice. Remember you very well. Good to see you here.

[nayte]

Nice. Remember you very well. Good to see you here.

Yep we had some good debates..I lost track of forums for a while..
Was to busy having kids.......how bout you ? more kidds now? ima up to 4..
And ya still in Japan I see.

[RRR3]

LOL @ that moron jacks thinking Kobe is close to T-Mac in athleticism. :roll:

[D-Wade316]

LOL @ that moron jacks thinking Kobe is close to T-Mac in athleticism. :roll:
This.

Lebron, Wade, T-Mac's athleticism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe's Athleticism

Kobe gets injured despite shooting jumpers

[Doctor Rivers]

This.

Lebron, Wade, T-Mac's athleticism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe's Athleticism

Kobe gets injured despite shooting jumpers

repped

[with malice]

Yep we had some good debates..I lost track of forums for a while..
Was to busy having kids.......how bout you ? more kidds now? ima up to 4..
And ya still in Japan I see.
Yup. Nah, still just the one.


LOL @ that moron jacks thinking Kobe is close to T-Mac in athleticism. :roll:
"Is"? Umm... you might want to check your tense usage there.

Just a question, were you around when T-Mac/Kobe were at their peaks?

[RRR3]

Yup. Nah, still just the one.


"Is"? Umm... you might want to check your tense usage there.

Just a question, were you around when T-Mac/Kobe were at their peaks?
you know what i meant and yes, i was.

[with malice]

Don't get me wrong - T-Mac was an impressive athlete, but I gotta think that if you were watching them at the time, either you've let your hate overcome what's actually real... or you're simply trolling here.

I mean, I dislike LeBron as a person - but I enjoy watching him play. Guy's truly gifted in a way that very few people have ever been.
I just think that way too many people get caught up in hating because they're *supposed* to, and deriding a guy because of that. If you get my drift...

[RRR3]

Don't get me wrong - T-Mac was an impressive athlete, but I gotta think that if you were watching them at the time, either you've let your hate overcome what's actually real... or you're simply trolling here.

I mean, I dislike LeBron as a person - but I enjoy watching him play. Guy's truly gifted in a way that very few people have ever been.
I just think that way too many people get caught up in hating because they're *supposed* to, and deriding a guy because of that. If you get my drift...
I don't hate Kobe. T-Mac was simply on another level in terms of athleticism.

[with malice]

I don't hate Kobe. T-Mac was simply on another level in terms of athleticism.
Well, I've been here long enough to know that's not true. And "on another level"? Now you really are trolling.

Whatever. No point having a discussion on it I guess.

[RRR3]

Well, I've been here long enough to know that's not true. And "on another level"? Now you really are trolling.

Whatever.
How are you going to tell ME who I hate?:wtf:

[L8kersfan222]

How are you going to tell ME who I hate?:wtf:


How are you and the rest of the Libyan rebels doing?

[with malice]

How are you going to tell ME who I hate?:wtf:
Do you read what you type? That's how you come across.

[RRR3]

Do you read what you type? That's how you come across.
I'm sorry I don't deify him like the majority of this board does. :rolleyes:
KOBE DA GAWD BRYANT!!!!!!! DA GOAT!!!! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Happy?

[D-Wade316]

How are you and the rest of the Libyan rebels doing?
What has the Libyan Revolution have to do with this thread? :facepalm

[L8kersfan222]

:confusedshrug:
:pimp:

[with malice]

I'm sorry I don't deify him like the majority of this board does. :rolleyes:
KOBE DA GAWD BRYANT!!!!!!! DA GOAT!!!! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Happy?
Do you always overreact in this way?
Where did I state that I felt that was necessary? Flying a bit of angst out there, aren'tcha?

[L8kersfan222]

Do you always overreact in this way?
Where did I state that I felt that was necessary? Flying a bit of angst out there, aren'tcha?


RR3 been taking L's since figuring out his team wasn't da bess hes :mad: .

[RRR3]

Do you always overreact in this way?
Where did I state that I felt that was necessary? Flying a bit of angst out there, aren'tcha?
I'm overreacting? :rolleyes: Okay, Mr. saying Kobe wasn't as good an athlete as T-Mac makes me a "hater". :facepalm

[with malice]

I'm overreacting? :rolleyes: Okay, Mr. saying Kobe wasn't as good an athlete as T-Mac makes me a "hater". :facepalm
You really should calm down a bit. Was simply trying to have a bit of a discussion on it.
How about I change it to "either you're not remembering their play as it was, or you're trollin'"?

I don't think Kobe was on the same level as LeBron is athletically, or MJ was. But he was on a par with Tracy McGrady.

[KenneBell]

I never said he wasn't 'elite' did I?

People need to understand context tho. I think the main reason this thread was created was because we rarely include him in the same convo as VC and MJ. But that doesn't mean that he isn't an elite athlete.

Btw.... here's some other players that are better athletes:

Spreewell
Francis
Rider
JR Smith
Stansbury (?)
G. Wilkins
Minor
Augmon
Eddie Jones
Tmac

Those are just a few off the top that are better athletes (not just better leapers.... which there's even more of). Not to say that they're far better athletes than him, and some may be in fact on the same level (very close call with some).
Can't agree with this. Some on that list may be quicker or jump higher(arguable), but none of them have the coordination or body control Kobe has. Really, body control while mid-air and shooting is a big reason why Kobe is still dangerous today.

All of those players besides maybe T-Mac could not do the things an 00-08 Kobe could do around the basket, fading during jumpers, hitting turnaround jumpers, double clutching/floating across the lane, etc.

Seemingly simple things like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpjW3xbp-rM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

There are only a few players who can regularly do that in NBA history.

[andgar923]

Can't agree with this. Some on that list may be quicker or jump higher(arguable), but none of them have the coordination or body control Kobe has. Really, body control while mid-air and shooting is a big reason why Kobe is still dangerous today.

All of those players besides maybe T-Mac could not do the things an 00-08 Kobe could do around the basket, fading during jumpers, hitting turnaround jumpers, double clutching/floating across the lane, etc.

Seemingly simple things like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpjW3xbp-rM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

There are only a few players who can regularly do that in NBA history.

Yes they could, almost all of them with ease may I add.

[RRR3]

Can't agree with this. Some on that list may be quicker or jump higher(arguable), but none of them have the coordination or body control Kobe has. Really, body control while mid-air and shooting is a big reason why Kobe is still dangerous today.

All of those players besides maybe T-Mac could not do the things an 00-08 Kobe could do around the basket, fading during jumpers, hitting turnaround jumpers, double clutching/floating across the lane, etc.

Seemingly simple things like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpjW3xbp-rM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

There are only a few players who can regularly do that in NBA history.

Man, T-Mac could easily do that bank shot before he got injured. Are you kidding? That wasn't even all that. I've seen way better from Kobe.

[andgar923]

I haven't even included Penny who was also a superior all around athlete, or Corey Benjamin, Paul McPherson, either of the O'Bannon brothers.... some of you think I'm making this shit up, but almost all of them are either better athletes or right on par. Some that come to mind are Ray Allen who one can argue with either way, and I"m sure some would even say he's a slightly better athlete than Kobe.

If given some time, I can come up with many more 2 guard with either the same amount of athleticism or more.

So in short.... NO Kobe is not a top 5 all time at his position.

[Legends66NBA7]

Don't know how people can underestimate someone when they say Kobe is among the best of this generation.

There's almost nothing he can't do given his athletic ability. Also have to give him props for his relentless work ethic for being the athlete he is.

[Legends66NBA7]

I haven't even included Penny who was also a superior all around athlete, or Corey Benjamin, Paul McPherson, either of the O'Bannon brothers.... some of you think I'm making this shit up, but almost all of them are either better athletes or right on par. Some that come to mind are Ray Allen who one can argue with either way, and I"m sure some would even say he's a slightly better athlete than Kobe.

If given some time, I can come up with many more 2 guard with either the same amount of athleticism or more.

So in short.... NO Kobe is not a top 5 all time at his position.

I wouldn't disagree with this, but it's arguable. Who's your Top 5 andgar ?

[andgar923]

I wouldn't disagree with this, but it's arguable. Who's your Top 5 andgar ?

I'd have to think about that for a while, but VC isn't a clear cut top 5 imo. He can jump high, but I actually agree with some of the Kobe fans when they say jumping high doesn't necessarily mean one is a better athlete, although I do think VC is a better athlete than Kobe. Kobe is slightly better in some aspects, but VC is superior in others.

The thing is, Kobe is an elite athlete, but there's been others that could do what he could but could jump higher in the process. I've seen Francis, Spree, and others do what Kobe has done, but they could all jump higher. Then there's also the fact that Kobe's exploits have been documented far more than any of the players I mentioned. If you look up Corey Benjamin you might get lucky to find 3 vids and most of them showing the same clips. But the dude was truly MJ 2.0... had the same leaping ability, similar body control etc. It's also a shame Ronnie Fields didn't play in the NBA... that dude was one of my all time favs.

[Legends66NBA7]

I'd have to think about that for a while, but VC isn't a clear cut top 5 imo. He can jump high, but I actually agree with some of the Kobe fans when they say jumping high doesn't necessarily mean one is a better athlete, although I do think VC is a better athlete than Kobe. Kobe is slightly better in some aspects, but VC is superior in others.

The thing is, Kobe is an elite athlete, but there's been others that could do what he could but could jump higher in the process. I've seen Francis, Spree, and others do what Kobe has done, but they could all jump higher. Then there's also the fact that Kobe's exploits have been documented far more than any of the players I mentioned. If you look up Corey Benjamin you might get lucky to find 3 vids and most of them showing the same clips. But the dude was truly MJ 2.0... had the same leaping ability, similar body control etc. It's also a shame Ronnie Fields didn't play in the NBA... that dude was one of my all time favs.

Yeah, it really is a tough one.

Like you said, Kobe is an elite athlete and there have been players who can do the same things, or they could jump higher, more flashy, etc...

I am aware of Corey Benjamin. Like many, damn good athlete, he just couldn't figure out his niche in the NBA game.

As for you MJ 2.0, you are right:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3htC7_1oeI

Ronnie Fields is pretty nice too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_gNNVZc4w4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WedZEVaoxWg&feature=relmfu


I think what separates a guy like Kobe from the above mentioned is the work ethic though. He may not have been more athletic than those guys, per se, but he made up for it with a better understanding of how to work on his body and improve is athletic ability.

[chazzy]

I don't hate Kobe. T-Mac was simply on another level in terms of athleticism.
:oldlol: What the hell? TMac had superior size/wingspan, but he wasn't on another level.

[andgar923]

Yeah, it really is a tough one.

Like you said, Kobe is an elite athlete and there have been players who can do the same things, or they could jump higher, more flashy, etc...

I am aware of Corey Benjamin. Like many, damn good athlete, he just couldn't figure out his niche in the NBA game.

As for you MJ 2.0, you are right:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3htC7_1oeI

Ronnie Fields is pretty nice too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_gNNVZc4w4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WedZEVaoxWg&feature=relmfu


I think what separates a guy like Kobe from the above mentioned is the work ethic though. He may not have been more athletic than those guys, per se, but he made up for it with a better understanding of how to work on his body and improve is athletic ability.

Hah... I remember that dunk contest, and I remember Lester Earl very much as well. I remember going out to my court after that dunk contest and trying to do my best Lester imitation.

[IGOTGAME]

anyone that says jr is a better athlete than Kobe just doesn't get it...

[Indian guy]

Those who underestimate Kobe as an athlete are Kobe fans themselves, in a contrived attempt to show OMG-he's-done-so-much-with-so-little.

[bstickq1]

anyone that says jr is a better athlete than Kobe just doesn't get it...
I don't think he is either, but when the OP was talking about body control in the air, JR has done this -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTtLXhS9ZeI

[Dragonyeuw]

To argue that Kobe isn't an elite athlete( especially in his youth) is crazy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eEH5g0wrVc

Kobe doesn't have elite level hops( Vince, MJ, Lebron), but his body control, especially in-air, is definitely elite level.

[baller562]

JR Smith? :roll: :roll:

Kobe definitely was up there, not on the same level as Vince and Jordan.. his level is more comparable to Wade, Tmac, and Clyde Drexler.

[eliteballer]

I never said he wasn't 'elite' did I?

People need to understand context tho. I think the main reason this thread was created was because we rarely include him in the same convo as VC and MJ. But that doesn't mean that he isn't an elite athlete.

Btw.... here's some other players that are better athletes:

Spreewell
Francis
Rider
JR Smith
Stansbury (?)
G. Wilkins
Minor
Augmon
Eddie Jones
Tmac

Those are just a few off the top that are better athletes (not just better leapers.... which there's even more of). Not to say that they're far better athletes than him, and some may be in fact on the same level (very close call with some).

LMAO! Almost a s stupid as when you said Rik Smits ws better than Dwight Howard:roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wprY9UVpMc

[andgar923]

LMAO! Almost a s stupid as when you said Rik Smits ws better than Dwight Howard:roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wprY9UVpMc

Of course you are gonna laugh it off. Even tho all of them had a higher vert than Kobe, most of them had better body control, agility, balance, explosiveness, speed, quickness, strength, etc.etc. and the rest were basically on par with Kobe's athleticism.... but again... jumped higher.

Let's put it like this...

MJ is a 10 on the athleticism scale.

Kobe is a 7

Somebody like Spree is an 8

Go ahead get mad/laugh or post your silly gifs, it won't change reality.

Oh btw.... JR Smith IS a better athlete than Kobe.

While Kobe may be slightly quicker, everything else is basically on par except for leaping ability.... JR takes that hands down.

The main difference is that Kobe's highlights have been collected and documented 100X more than most of the players I mentioned.

[Jacks3]

LOL @ that moron jacks thinking Kobe is close to T-Mac in athleticism. :roll:
You're a freaking retard. Not close to T-Mac?

Is that why he's always been better at getting to the rim and finishing?

****king piece-of-shit clown.

[RRR3]

You're a freaking retard. Not close to T-Mac?

Is that why he's always been better at getting to the rim and finishing?

****king piece-of-shit clown.
Yup. Mad.

[Jacks3]

go ahead and laugh all you want, it's true for most of them and very arguable for the rest.

A. They were all superior leapers
B. It's arguable that all but maybe 2 had the same type of control, speed, agility etc. but if anything were right on par with Kobe's abilities.

So.... if they could all jump higher AND either have slightly better athletic abilities along/or on par.... it makes them better... no? :confusedshrug:
None of those guys had prime Kobe's combination of speed, quickness,explosiveness, stamina, body-control, and length.

Seriously. J.R Smith?

You're a moron.

[Jacks3]

Yup. Mad.
Kobe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>T-Mac as a player and All-Time.

Prime Kobe was quicker, has a better first step, better stamina, better body control, better finisher.

Damn. T-Mac is inferior to Bryant everywhere.

Sucks for you, moron. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

:rant :rant :rant :blah :blah :blah *incessant lies and myths about Kobe*:
:sleeping You bore me. Stop living in Kobeland.

[IGOTGAME]

Of course you are gonna laugh it off. Even tho all of them had a higher vert than Kobe, most of them had better body control, agility, balance, explosiveness, speed, quickness, strength, etc.etc. and the rest were basically on par with Kobe's athleticism.... but again... jumped higher.

Let's put it like this...

MJ is a 10 on the athleticism scale.

Kobe is a 7

Somebody like Spree is an 8

Go ahead get mad/laugh or post your silly gifs, it won't change reality.

Oh btw.... JR Smith IS a better athlete than Kobe.

While Kobe may be slightly quicker, everything else is basically on par except for leaping ability.... JR takes that hands down.

The main difference is that Kobe's highlights have been collected and documented 100X more than most of the players I mentioned.


I know Jr pretty well. He isn't the athlete prime Kobe was. Kobe is bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, with better body control. Jr has always had poor lateral movement as well. He is oft overrated as an athlete.

[Jacks3]

:sleeping incessant and retarded Kobe hating and T-Mac dick slurping.
Stop it phaggett.

[ImmortalD24]

I clicked 3 links.. bunch of "meh" highlights... then I clicked one link in the middle.. it's the same as the first. Stopped right there.


If you're planning on making another thread like this, PM so I can compile better highlights for you.

[andgar923]

I know Jr pretty well. He isn't the athlete prime Kobe was. Kobe is bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, with better body control. Jr has always had poor lateral movement as well. He is oft overrated as an athlete.

No, Kobe is not bigger nor stronger... at least not according to NBA.com.
Body control are about the same, but Kobe may have been slightly quicker. I'd also give the slight edge to Kobe in regards to lateral movement.

But.... you said in 'Kobe's prime'. In Kobe's prime he wasn't as strong, or big as JR is now.

In Kobe's prime all he had was possibly speed/quickness (that can be argued) and lateral movement.

While JR is clearly a better leaper.

JR is also stronger, bigger, and is equaled to Kobe in the other factors (agility, body control, balance etc.)

Btw... I'd like to point out that in Kobe's athletic prime, he wasn't very strong. Once he started to get bigger and stronger some of his other attributes began to slightly fade away.

[Smoke117]

Why do any of you care where someone is rated as an athlete to his contemporaries'? I don't see why you any of this is worth arguing about.

[Dave3]

I thank the OP for making this thread. It made me search up the VC highlights a poster mentioned earlier in this strength. Man, forgot how graceful that guy looked with every dunk and layup. Puts players like LeBron and Wade to shame with his style of finishing.

If you want to see some real athleticism, look up "Vince Carter top 10 windmill dunks"

[baller562]

JR is also stronger, bigger, and is equaled to Kobe in the other factors (agility, body control, balance etc.)

Everything you're saying can't be measured, its mostly subjective stuff. Body control and balance, JR smith has done nothing to show me he's gifted in those areas. Strength is another area, Kobe backs JR down at will... I'll give you Tmac (in his short prime), but come on, JR SMITH? I just dont see it!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3nSuERhiF0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_lMX39ASls

JR Smith wouldn't be able to pull of half of these...

[bstickq1]

Everything you're saying can't be measured, its mostly subjective stuff. Body control and balance, JR smith has done nothing to show me he's gifted in those areas. Strength is another area, Kobe backs JR down at will... I'll give you Tmac (in his short prime), but come on, JR SMITH? I just dont see it!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3nSuERhiF0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_lMX39ASls

JR Smith wouldn't be able to pull of half of these...

Eh, JR is pretty elite in body control and balance in the air -

Examples -
Reverse Layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x0Mr9KJcgg)
360 layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEY6PMMQIoI) (same one I linked to earlier in the thread)
360 alley oop layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh5ilUPLMco)
Reverse Layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElvzYG7ntUc)
Putback dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5zMq_6GGpo)
No running start putback dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSIvx5yDvKY&feature=related)
Putback dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTZVlLrTKX0)
360 finger-roll (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXGlmr8r-J0)
360 alley oop dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRFiAWSC_TA)
Reverse Dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOT6mKQopyY&feature=related)
Reverse two hand dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsGmBW3j4k8)
Reverse Dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7fuU5yada0)
Double pump layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mOiVMYcNuk)
Reverse Layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQj8aruasnM)

[andgar923]

Everything you're saying can't be measured, its mostly subjective stuff. Body control and balance, JR smith has done nothing to show me he's gifted in those areas. Strength is another area, Kobe backs JR down at will... I'll give you Tmac (in his short prime), but come on, JR SMITH? I just dont see it!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3nSuERhiF0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_lMX39ASls

JR Smith wouldn't be able to pull of half of these...

So wait... you're saying that me stating JR being bigger and stronger can't be measured?

Uh.... they list his weight on NBA.com and guess what? he's bigger!

As far as strength is concerned, we can measure strength... it's called weight lifting. Although to be honest, I haven't seen what their strength numbers indicate, I have seen JR show strength when he finishes around the basket. And wouldn't it be safe to assume that he being bigger wouldn't also translate into he being stronger as well?

And were you being ironic on purpose, or did you just not think through your post?:hammerhead:

[IGOTGAME]

So wait... you're saying that me stating JR being bigger and stronger can't be measured?

Uh.... they list his weight on NBA.com and guess what? he's bigger!

As far as strength is concerned, we can measure strength... it's called weight lifting. Although to be honest, I haven't seen what their strength numbers indicate, I have seen JR show strength when he finishes around the basket. And wouldn't it be safe to assume that he being bigger wouldn't also translate into he being stronger as well?

And were you being ironic on purpose, or did you just not think through your post?:hammerhead:

I have watched then both play. I have played with Jr for years. Jr is an overrated athlete because people go crazy over leaping ability. Jr is no where near as fast or quick as Kobe. He def isn't stronger. Kobe throws him around like a rag doll now and has been throwing guys like him around for a decade.

remember this is the same Kobe that posts up Kenyon martin. If you think they are comparable in strength than you are beyond reasoning with.

[andgar923]

Eh, JR is pretty elite in body control and balance in the air -

Examples -
Reverse Layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x0Mr9KJcgg)
360 layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEY6PMMQIoI) (same one I linked to earlier in the thread)
360 alley oop layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh5ilUPLMco)
Reverse Layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElvzYG7ntUc)
Putback dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5zMq_6GGpo)
No running start putback dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSIvx5yDvKY&feature=related)
Putback dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTZVlLrTKX0)
360 finger-roll (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXGlmr8r-J0)
360 alley oop dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRFiAWSC_TA)
Reverse Dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOT6mKQopyY&feature=related)
Reverse two hand dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsGmBW3j4k8)
Reverse Dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7fuU5yada0)
Double pump layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mOiVMYcNuk)
Reverse Layup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQj8aruasnM)


I actually saw more clips but I think the point was made.

Kobe defender: "But... but... but..."

[Jacks3]

Classic Andgar.

"Rick Smits>Dwight Howard"
"Jordan would average 40 PPG today"
"Jordan has a case for the best defender ever"
"Wizards Jordan>=Current Wade"

And now--

"J.R Smith/Spreewell/Eddie Jones etc are more athletic than Kobe"

LMAO.

What will he come up with next?:roll:

[andgar923]

Classic Andgar.

"Rick Smits>Dwight Howard"
"Jordan would average 40 PPG today"
"Jordan has a case for the best defender ever"
"Wizards Jordan>=Current Wade"

And now--

"J.R Smith/Spreewell/Eddie Jones etc are more athletic than Kobe"

LMAO.

What will he come up with next?:roll:

Not as crazy as you:

Kobe= GOAT

[andgar923]

I have watched then both play. I have played with Jr for years. Jr is an overrated athlete because people go crazy over leaping ability. Jr is no where near as fast or quick as Kobe. He def isn't stronger. Kobe throws him around like a rag doll now and has been throwing guys like him around for a decade.

remember this is the same Kobe that posts up Kenyon martin. If you think they are comparable in strength than you are beyond reasoning with.

Strength isn't just about having the ability to throw people around.

And I admitted that Kobe has the advantage in speed quickness... and NO it isn't nowhere as wide as you make it seem.

However.... JR's leaping ability is superior than Kobe's.

[Jacks3]

"Rick Smits>Dwight Howard"
"Jordan would average 40 PPG today"
"Jordan has a case for the best defender ever"
"Wizards Jordan>=Current Wade"

And now--

"J.R Smith/Spreewell/Eddie Jones etc are more athletic than Kobe"

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DevilsAssassin]

"Rick Smits>Dwight Howard"
"Jordan would average 40 PPG today"
"Jordan has a case for the best defender ever"
"Wizards Jordan>=Current Wade"

And now--

"J.R Smith/Spreewell/Eddie Jones etc are more athletic than Kobe"

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

http://gifsoup.com/view3/2333540/thank-you-based-god-o.gif

[bstickq1]

I actually saw more clips but I think the point was made.

Kobe defender: "But... but... but..."
You may be getting me wrong, my only point was just that JR is elite in terms of body control in the air. I haven't even formulated an opinion on how he compares to Kobe in that area.

[andgar923]

You may be getting me wrong, my only point was just that JR is elite in terms of body control in the air. I haven't even formulated an opinion on how he compares to Kobe in that area.

Naw.... I understood what you posted. I was just mentioning that I saw other clips of JR showing great athleticism, but there wasn't a need to post them since you had done a good job.

The other part was me basically reacting like a Kobe defender.

And I also never stated that JR was better at controlling his body in the air, just that they were both equals in that aspect, with JR having a clear vertical leap advantage.

I also have to make clear (yet again) that Kobe IS a great athlete. My only point is that there's other players that get little to no respect, that either equal Kobe's athleticism or surpass him. And this was as a reply to a poster mentioning Kobe being a top 5 all time.... which he isn't. But out of the hundreds of players that have played the 2 position, it isn't an insult to say that a dozen or so players are either on par or better than him. Biggest difference is that Kobe gets tons of shine while others don't.

[Doctor Rivers]

JR Smith >> Wade + Kobe

That's the damn truth.

[RRR3]

JR Smith >> Wade + Kobe

That's the damn truth.
You just said someone was better than Wade at something. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Jacks3]

And this was as a reply to a poster mentioning Kobe being a top 5 all time.... which he isn't..
Yes, he is. Deal with it.

[RRR3]

Yes, he is. Deal with it.
I hope you mean in terms of athleticism at SG (still not sure I'd agree but it's at least arguable) and not on the GOAt list.

[Nash-tastic]

Why dont you pull out your 100's of Carter finishes that are better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRH5YLL7VsE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynzdt71eNY4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tl3_qciXu8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqApt9zgHcc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHLxAyVpiqU&feature=related
Those are his just his Nets highlights

[Dave3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRH5YLL7VsE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynzdt71eNY4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tl3_qciXu8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqApt9zgHcc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHLxAyVpiqU&feature=related
Those are his just his Nets highlights
Yeah there's no way Kobe was more athletic than Carter. There's a reason he's the best dunker of all time. Vertical, agility, acrobatics, and quickness. Not to mention he had very underrated strength.

[RRR3]

Yeah there's no way Kobe was more athletic than Carter. There's a reason he's the best dunker of all time. Vertical, agility, acrobatics, and quickness. Not to mention he had very underrated strength.
in b4 jacks(offtokobe)3

[Indian guy]

T-Mac was more explosive than Kobe in some ways, but I can't really point to something specific and say he did that better than Kobe. Kobe was still quicker, more agile, better body control, more coordinated and a better leaper.

VC is a different story on the other hand. He matched Kobe in body control and was a better leaper and more explosive in every way. Probably not as quick, but fairly similar in full-court speed.

[RRR3]

T-Mac was more explosive than Kobe in some ways, but I can't really point to something specific and say he did that better than Kobe. Kobe was still quicker, more agile, better body control, more coordinated and a better leaper.

VC is a different story on the other hand. He matched Kobe in body control and was a better leaper and more explosive in every way. Probably not as quick, but fairly similar in full-court speed.
:roll:

[KingRaptor]

T-Mac was more explosive than Kobe in some ways, but I can't really point to something specific and say he did that better than Kobe. Kobe was still quicker, more agile, better body control, more coordinated and a better leaper.

VC is a different story on the other hand. He matched Kobe in body control and was a better leaper and more explosive in every way. Probably not as quick, but fairly similar in full-court speed.
what does more agile mean?

[Dave3]

what does more agile mean?
Acrobatic ability with quickness.

[KingRaptor]

Acrobatic ability with quickness.
i see

[RRR3]

Acrobatic ability with quickness.
So T-Mac wins. :cheers:

[Dave3]

So T-Mac wins. :cheers:
Kobe was stronger and had an equal vert. Tmac was more agile, but I think Kobe wins explosiveness. I'd say in their primes pretty even, but both below Carter, and way below Jordan/LeBron level.

[RRR3]

Kobe was stronger and had an equal vert. Tmac was more agile, but I think Kobe wins explosiveness. I'd say in their primes pretty even, but both below Carter, and way below Jordan/LeBron level.
T-Mac had a 42 inch vertical. Kobe's was 38. T-Mac wass quicker too IMO.

[eliteballer]

There is NO official source for their verticals, and Kobe was definitely quicker and more agile. LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5-VOk3kSpI&t=0m26s

1st play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5-VOk3kSpI&t=0m26s

[RRR3]

There is NO official source for their verticals, and Kobe was definitely quicker and more agile. LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5-VOk3kSpI&t=0m26s

1st play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5-VOk3kSpI&t=0m26s
:sleeping

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe was a much better athlete than T-Mac. Vince Carter was on another plateau though.

[RRR3]

Kobe was a much better athlete than T-Mac. Vince Carter was on another plateau though.
:facepalm

[Heavincent]

:facepalm

Kobe is not a "much" better athlete, but he is a slightly better athlete than T-Mac. He's right about VC too.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:facepalm

:sleeping

[ihatetimthomas]

I cant believe I actually skimmed through this thread.. 10 pages of little kids bickering about a dumb topic. Its like little kids on the playground fighting about who's daddy is better. Please end the lockout or this kind of topic madness will continue!!:banghead: :hammerhead:

[Jacks3]

Kobe was a much better athlete than T-Mac.
RRR3 crying like a bitch.