View Full Version : Dirk is above KG in the all-time list
Friday
10-25-2011, 05:49 PM
this is a fact.
Kevin Garnett....
brb getting bounced out of the 1st round for 7 straight post-season appearances
brb missing the playoffs for 3 straight seasons during my prime
brb lack of killer instinct and can't close out games like dirk
brb being extremely dependent on my teammates to win
brb couldn't guard Dirk to save my life in the 2002 playoffs
brb picking on a bunch of 6'0 euros and running away from black guys.
Dirk > KG
Harison
10-25-2011, 06:08 PM
I understand ignorance is bliss to you, but you should really study this game more, you are in for amazing discoveries! :pimp:
King24
10-25-2011, 06:17 PM
Kevin Garnett....
brb getting bounced out of the 1st round for 7 straight post-season appearances
brb missing the playoffs for 3 straight seasons during my prime
brb lack of killer instinct and can't close out games like dirk
brb being extremely dependent on my teammates to win
not to mention--
his team has gone 40-20(67% winning %) without him in the last 4 yrs.
his team was one game away from making the ECF Finals without him in 09
his TS% in the post-season is a horrific 51%.
he was the third best player on his own team for the 08 Finals.
the celtics have continued to be contenders even with his massive decline
overrated if you ask me. i'll take dirk.
ballup
10-25-2011, 06:34 PM
http://blog.wtfconcept.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/trololol.gif
Pretty obvious
Bernie Nips
10-25-2011, 06:35 PM
not to mention--
his team has gone 40-20(67% winning %) without him in the last 4 yrs.
his team was one game away from making the ECF Finals without him in 09
his TS% in the post-season is a horrific 51%.
he was the third best player on his own team for the 08 Finals.
the celtics have continued to be contenders even with his massive decline
overrated if you ask me. i'll take dirk.
The brain's a funny thing. It actually reaches a conclusion and then tries to find evidence to support that conclusion, blinding itself to facts that stand in the way.
That's how you rate how stoopid someone is: how retarded the evidence they find is.
This one is brilliant:
"his team was one game away from making the ECF Finals without him in 09"
However, the year before they won the championship and the year after they made it game 7 of the Finals, leading at 3 quarter time... WITH him. All this proves is how much impact he made when he wasn't there.
This one ain't bad either:
"he was the third best player on his own team for the 08 Finals."
Arguably. Of course, for their playoff run, he was not only the leading rebounder and the defensive anchor and general, he was the leading scorer (above Finals MVP Paul Pierce!)
Even the first one:
"his team has gone 40-20(67% winning %) without him in the last 4 yrs."
Wow, his first season with the team they went 66-16. So you're saying.. they're far worse without him? That's a huge shock!
Before KG on the Celtics, they went:
24-58
First year of KG on the Celtics, they went:
66-16
The biggest turnaround in NBA history.
But hey, keep looking for incorrect facts to support your argument, that's the spirit!
King24
10-25-2011, 06:48 PM
incorrect facts? everything I said is 100% truth. why u so mad?
However, the year before they won the championship and the year after they made it game 7 of the Finals, leading at 3 quarter time... WITH him. All this proves is how much impact he made when he wasn't there
not really. he was a role-player at that point. hell, he wasn't even the best player on his own team. rondo was. the fact is his team was 1 game away from the ECF without his overrated ass, and could have potentially mad the finals very easily.
Arguably.
not at all. both pierce and allen were easily better.
Wow, his first season with the team they went 66-16. So you're saying.. they're far worse without him? That's a huge shock!
they went 9-2 without KG with a 9+ point differential in 2008.:oldlol:
overall they've gone 40-20 without him.
you'd think they'd drop off more with such a "great" player, but nope. :oldlol:
Before KG on the Celtics, they went:
24-58
First year of KG on the Celtics, they went:
66-16
The biggest turnaround in NBA history.
i like how you fail to acknowledge that that turn-around had far more factors than just kg. pierce getting healthy again? getting freaking ray allen? addition of rondo? thibs? yeah, it was all KG. that's why they went 9-2 without him that year, and have been 40-20 the last 4 years. :lol
dee-rose
10-25-2011, 06:50 PM
brb choking a 2-0 lead in the finals
brb never playing a lick of defense in my life
brb forgot to close out the warriors in the first round, MVP:bowdown:
brb my team put on one of the best 3pt shooting performances of all time this year
brb tyson chandler saved my life
Fixed. I don't actually like hating on Dirk at all, but KG is totally on a whole other level.
bizil
10-25-2011, 06:51 PM
I gotta say peak value wise I will take KG over Dirk. And on a GOAT list as of now, I will take KG. Dirk is a legend no doubt and redefined the PF spot. KG is a legend and redefined the PF. What's funny is that both looked like they were going to redefine the SF spot cause both early on in their careers played plenty if not mostly SF. I feel they are the main two guys responsible for getting the upcoming 7 footers behind them wanting to be perimeter players or SF's.
Both also have a ring. The year Boston won the ring, KG could have easily been L MVP. Now as a great number one scoring option, I would take Dirk over KG. But KG had enough of a killer instinct and ability to qualify as a Batman as well. But it's the other facets of the game where KG pulls ahead. At one time, KG was the best rebounder and most versatile defender in the NBA at the same time. He was also the best passing big in the L as well along with it., In my opinion KG is the most complete PF of all time. He great to very good in all areas of the game and added freak athletic ability to it. Barkley is right there, I just think the defense it what pulls KG ahead.
But GOAT wise, Dirk still has a shot to pull past KG. KG is little past his prime, while Dirk is still in his. Dirk has been very durable and his game is built to last. KG is still an All Star caliber big man, but I feel these knee injuries in the last couple of years slowed him. Dirk can end up with at least 27,000 points and who knows another ring or two. If Dirk does those things, he might get to number two on a GOAT list possibly.
DMAVS41
10-25-2011, 06:55 PM
I still have KG over Dirk all time the way people rank here. I will probably have Dirk higher when its all said and done, but it depends on what Dirk does over the next 2 or 3 years...
Very close either way. Hilarious listening to people saying "fact" or that one of these guys is definitely better/above the other. Just silly.
I like how people try and make it KG>Dirk and if you say otherwise you're trolling. You can make an argument either way for both of them. That said, I'll take Dirk Nowitzki thank you. 50 wins every year, a regular season and finals MVP and a reliable go-to clutch player. He's also a good defender contrary to conventional wisdom. It also doesn't hurt his case that he's outperformed KG head-to-head during his career.
Rooster
10-25-2011, 07:26 PM
Dirk is better at clutch but I take KG overall. He can play well at both ends while Dirk is allegic on defense.
rodman91
10-25-2011, 07:26 PM
Dirk > Garnett.
Garnett is a special player.One of the best all around players. But Dirk is as special as Garnett as well. He is 7 footer with one of the best shooting skill ever.
Garnett does a lot of things better than Dirk..but what dirk does is more special.He has been a great leader,clutch player, better scorer.
What i didn't like about Garnett, he has never been as dominant as his stats shows.Especially on offense.He has been second tier offensive player next to guys like Duncan,Barkley,Malone,Nowitzki.
His defense certainly better than Nowitzki's and many others but not quite as great as hyped.But he was versatile and intense for sure.
Kinda Lebron vs Kobe situation between two.It's ironic he did same with leaving his franchise and joining other stars to get a ring.
knickswin
10-25-2011, 08:17 PM
Yeah, KG's kind of an overrated scorer in my opinion. The fact that his highest scoring game in the playoffs is 35 or something like that and he's rarely gotten above 30 underscores my point. Like, is he really that much better at scoring than Chris Bosh? KG had a back-to-the-basket game, but it more or less functioned as a face-up game IMO because he rarely backed his man down and usually just turned around and hit a fade-away in the same place as if he had just faced-up in the first place. He had something of a perimeter game, but that was more of a gimmick IMO than a real effective weapon. He was good for a 7 footer, but it wasn't like he was in the same league as the elite scoring shooting guards and small forwards.
I like KG's game a lot. He's an absolutely excellent team defender, good rebounder for his position, absolute money from midrange, and he's one of the better passing big men of the past decade. Perfect second best player on a contender. I just don't get why people have pretended his whole career that he's also an elite scorer.
Inception28
10-25-2011, 08:17 PM
Dirk > Garnett.
Garnett is a special player.One of the best all around players. But Dirk is as special as Garnett as well. He is 7 footer with one of the best shooting skill ever.
Garnett does a lot of things better than Dirk..but what dirk does is more special.He has been a great leader,clutch player, better scorer.
What i didn't like about Garnett, he has never been as dominant as his stats shows.Especially on offense.He has been second tier offensive player next to guys like Duncan,Barkley,Malone,Nowitzki.
His defense arguably better than Nowitzki's and many others but not quite as great as hyped.But he was versatile and intense for sure.
Kinda Lebron vs Kobe situation between two.It's ironic he did same with leaving his franchise and joining other stars to get a ring.
KG's defense was arguably better? :confusedshrug:
Here are two issues that I have always had with KG.
1. He is extremely dependent on his teammates and on the scheme
2. He never elevated his play in the post-season especially compared to Dirk.
Garnett's best post-season wouldn't even be top 3 to Dirk. Dirk's 06, 09, and 11's were better post-season runs than any post-season run KG had.
Garnett is not the type of defensive anchor that a David Robinson, Dwight Howard, Alonzo Mourning, etc. were. Like Dirk, he actually needed some sort of defensive big man behind him. It's not like KG automatically turns poor defensive teams into elite ones like Robinson and Howard were capable of doing. Those T'Wolves team were never great defensively outside of the 03-04 season when KG won the MVP, they were never top 10 in team DRating. He is dependent on his teammates and on his team's schemes for that
knickswin
10-25-2011, 08:21 PM
^^^ totally agree about that. I hate it when the idiots on ESPN talk about KG these days like he's still an incredible defensive force. He's not. What he's really good at is rotating correctly and making smart team defensive plays. That's great, but there are a lot of guys in the league who do that. His post D is pretty good, not elite.
eliteballer
10-25-2011, 08:21 PM
KG never choked like Dirk did in 06 and 07. He was a monster defensively(:oldlol: @ Dirk ever getting a DPOY) a way better rebounder and passer.
Inception28
10-25-2011, 08:23 PM
KG never choked like Dirk did in 06 and 07. He was a monster defensively(:oldlol: @ Dirk ever getting a DPOY) a way better rebounder and passer.
And KG never stepped up as big as Dirk did in 11. Dirk's 06 performance is pretty much a mirror of what Lebron did in 2011. Both had great playoff runs but were completed negated by their finals performance.
KG has had many many playoff series where he shot under 45%.
knickswin
10-25-2011, 08:31 PM
KG never choked like Dirk did in 06 and 07. He was a monster defensively(:oldlol: @ Dirk ever getting a DPOY) a way better rebounder and passer.
He's also had like 1 really good playoff game his entire career . . . (that game against the Kings)
Mr Know It All
10-25-2011, 08:35 PM
Kevin Garnett is incredibly overrated on ISH, a number of people have made the claim that he is a top 20 player of all time:oldlol:
Garnett had a magnificent statistical peak, and was stout defensively, but other than that was unable to make his mark on the league as a first option, and that alone vaults Dirk above him in my view.
This debate will rage on and on though, so I'm not going to go into a big analysis of the subject. Fact is, as a pure basketball player, Garnett does many many things better than Dirk. Better defender, rebounder, passer. However, if I'm starting a franchise, and if I'm taking a guy in a game 7, I take Dirk every time.
Dirk also destroys Garnett in the class department.
Friday
10-25-2011, 09:23 PM
Kevin Garnett is incredibly overrated on ISH, a number of people have made the claim that he is a top 20 player of all time:oldlol:
Garnett had a magnificent statistical peak, and was stout defensively, but other than that was unable to make his mark on the league as a first option, and that alone vaults Dirk above him in my view.
This debate will rage on and on though, so I'm not going to go into a big analysis of the subject. Fact is, as a pure basketball player, Garnett does many many things better than Dirk. Better defender, rebounder, passer. However, if I'm starting a franchise, and if I'm taking a guy in a game 7, I take Dirk every time.
Dirk also destroys Garnett in the class department.
KG is considered top 10-12 on another site, so this isn't that bad.
Kevin Garnett is incredibly overrated on ISH, a number of people have made the claim that he is a top 20 player of all time:oldlol:
Garnett had a magnificent statistical peak, and was stout defensively, but other than that was unable to make his mark on the league as a first option, and that alone vaults Dirk above him in my view.
This debate will rage on and on though, so I'm not going to go into a big analysis of the subject. Fact is, as a pure basketball player, Garnett does many many things better than Dirk. Better defender, rebounder, passer. However, if I'm starting a franchise, and if I'm taking a guy in a game 7, I take Dirk every time.
Dirk also destroys Garnett in the class department.
Who cares about "class" when determining how good a player is at basketball :facepalm ? By that logic, Manute Bol is the GOAT :bowdown: :bowdown:
And name 20 better than KG. Oh wait, you can't. :roll:
ballup
10-25-2011, 10:17 PM
I like how people try and make it KG>Dirk and if you say otherwise you're trolling. You can make an argument either way for both of them. That said, I'll take Dirk Nowitzki thank you. 50 wins every year, a regular season and finals MVP and a reliable go-to clutch player. He's also a good defender contrary to conventional wisdom. It also doesn't hurt his case that he's outperformed KG head-to-head during his career.
It's OP's style of writing that makes it trolling. How is it not easy to detect?
CJ Mustard
10-25-2011, 11:04 PM
Lol @ the thread title.
Pointguard
10-25-2011, 11:13 PM
Garnett is not the type of defensive anchor that a David Robinson, Dwight Howard, Alonzo Mourning, etc. were. Like Dirk, he actually needed some sort of defensive big man behind him. It's not like KG automatically turns poor defensive teams into elite ones like Robinson and Howard were capable of doing. Those T'Wolves team were never great defensively outside of the 03-04 season when KG won the MVP, they were never top 10 in team DRating. He is dependent on his teammates and on his team's schemes for that
Defensive schemes and how teams approach defense are on the coach. Flip Sanders has a team now that could be great defensively but he's kind of like D'Antoni. The second KG got a defensive minded coach his team is among the defensive teams ever. And he communicates on defense probably better than any player before him. A communication system that totally kept teams out of the paint. Look at all the dunk videos on DH, Mourning and Duncan. Kobe runs a dunkfest on them because they play defense at the rim. With KG, penetrators weren't getting to the rim. Its a much better team system.
Pointguard
10-25-2011, 11:23 PM
His defense arguably better than Nowitzki's and many others but not quite as great as hyped.But he was versatile and intense for sure.
Wow, this is from a guy that has Rodman as a screen-name and avatar. Do you really know what defense is?
Friday
10-25-2011, 11:33 PM
Defensive schemes and how teams approach defense are on the coach. Flip Sanders has a team now that could be great defensively but he's kind of like D'Antoni. The second KG got a defensive minded coach his team is among the defensive teams ever. And he communicates on defense probably better than any player before him. A communication system that totally kept teams out of the paint. Look at all the dunk videos on DH, Mourning and Duncan. Kobe runs a dunkfest on them because they play defense at the rim. With KG, penetrators weren't getting to the rim. Its a much better team system.
lol what the ****. communication? how the **** do you even know?
Fixed. I don't actually like hating on Dirk at all, but KG is totally on a whole other level.
Fixed. I don't actually like hating on KG at all, but KG is totally on a whole lower level.
Pointguard
10-26-2011, 12:24 AM
lol what the ****. communication? how the **** do you even know?
:lol go to a game, watch a game on TV, read the papers, journals and mags.
brisbaneman
10-26-2011, 12:42 AM
Dirk is definitely better and has been so since 2005.
Garnett has him on defense and rebounding, dirk is better at everything else.
bballnoob1192
10-26-2011, 12:52 AM
wow i now realize wat a championship can do to a players ranking and all time status. im gonna be scared when lebron gets his cuz this place is gonna explode with lebron is better than insert top 5 player
EricForman
10-26-2011, 01:15 AM
^^^ totally agree about that. I hate it when the idiots on ESPN talk about KG these days like he's still an incredible defensive force. He's not. What he's really good at is rotating correctly and making smart team defensive plays. That's great, but there are a lot of guys in the league who do that. His post D is pretty good, not elite.
Um, that's arguably the most important factor in GOOD defense. good defense is stopping your man from getting to his comfort zone and preventing a good shot. it's NOT focusing on steals per game or blocks per game or chasedown blocks or swatting shots into the 3rd row. those are nice sometimes, but other times it's actually detrimental to winning basketball.
knickswin
10-26-2011, 01:43 AM
Um, that's arguably the most important factor in GOOD defense. good defense is stopping your man from getting to his comfort zone and preventing a good shot. it's NOT focusing on steals per game or blocks per game or chasedown blocks or swatting shots into the 3rd row. those are nice sometimes, but other times it's actually detrimental to winning basketball.
yeah, but what I think gets understated is that there are quite a few players in the league capable of doing that. You don't have to be that talented to hit your rotations and give timely doubles. I would credit Tom Thibodeau for the Celtics' good defense well before I credited Kevin Garnett.
Friday
10-26-2011, 01:54 AM
wow i now realize wat a championship can do to a players ranking and all time status. im gonna be scared when lebron gets his cuz this place is gonna explode with lebron is better than insert top 5 player
Lebron will be considered a GOAT candidate once he wins, trust me.
bballnoob1192
10-26-2011, 02:32 AM
yea but it wont stop the shitstorm of threads of lebron>top 5 player or lebron vs top 5 player if he wins a title
ihatetimthomas
10-26-2011, 03:28 AM
Very close. They have both had long, HOF careers. But i do think KG became a more complete player earlier in his career. By this, I do not mean only versatility because KG in his prime was capable of more things. I mean becoming a complete elite player. KG was above Dirk for most of his career. He matured faster as a player. Early in Dirks career, he was mostly just a jump shooter. He was the better overall scorer, but KG was better at everything else while holding his own in scoring.
But I think Dirk at his ultimate best as we saw this playoffs trumps KG at his ultimate best. Dirk is a player who could take over a game and has that "unstoppable" ability where they can score at will. KG never had this. KG was always critiqued for being a bit too passive. But he never had the ability to become a better offensive player than Dirk. Dirk's scoring ability is elite and comes very natural to him. Not as natural for KG.
I also like the fact Dirk changed up his game later in his career. He was doing his thing with scoring, but his knock was his ability to do much else. While he will never be an elite defender, he has improved upon that a lot. He also improved his offensive arsenal. No more is he purely a jump shooter. He can take it inside and finish. He can pass out of doubles. He can be a leader.
Its not an easy choice. Part of me also believe those Mavs teams back in the day with Nash and Finley would have been better with KG. That team sounds scary with KG. But in terms of absolute peaks, I go with Dirk. And Dirk still has years left in him to play as a elite #1 option. When it s all said and done, I say Dirk will be ahead. But as of now, I go with KG because he was a better player for a longer time, but not by far.
Pointguard
10-26-2011, 12:38 PM
But I think Dirk at his ultimate best as we saw this playoffs trumps KG at his ultimate best. Dirk is a player who could take over a game and has that "unstoppable" ability where they can score at will. KG never had this. KG was always critiqued for being a bit too passive. But he never had the ability to become a better offensive player than Dirk. Dirk's scoring ability is elite and comes very natural to him. Not as natural for KG.
Dirk isn't an elite scorer. Never was, never will be: Kobe, AI, Jordan, Wade are part of the elite. The second level of top notch scorers has players like Barkley, Durant, Dominique, Tmac, Bird, Shaq. Dirk doesn't belong there either. He's not the scorer that Mello or Lebron either. Dirk is third teir at best, possible fourth. Never was top three in scoring either. Dirk is great but stop trying to make him things he isn't.
Dirk isn't an elite scorer. Never was, never will be: Kobe, AI, Jordan, Wade are part of the elite. The second level of top notch scorers has players like Barkley, Durant, Dominique, Tmac, Bird, Shaq. Dirk doesn't belong there either. He's not the scorer that Mello or Lebron either. Dirk is third teir at best, possible fourth. Never was top three in scoring either. Dirk is great but stop trying to make him things he isn't.
Tmac lebron and durant are/were better scorers than wade
JohnnySic
10-26-2011, 12:49 PM
KG had the higher peak. People pull the team record card but Dirk's teams were always stcked, KG's weren't...Put prime KG on all those 50+ win Mavs teams and they'd be like Duncan's Spurs...
Carbine
10-26-2011, 12:50 PM
Dirk isn't an elite scorer. Never was, never will be: Kobe, AI, Jordan, Wade are part of the elite. The second level of top notch scorers has players like Barkley, Durant, Dominique, Tmac, Bird, Shaq. Dirk doesn't belong there either. He's not the scorer that Mello or Lebron either. Dirk is third teir at best, possible fourth. Never was top three in scoring either. Dirk is great but stop trying to make him things he isn't.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Pointguard
10-26-2011, 01:06 PM
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
:lol Like you have a counter argument. To be honest, I don't even think you understand what was written.
D-Wade316
10-26-2011, 01:11 PM
Tmac lebron and durant are/were better scorers than wade
:no: eFG%, TS%, and FG% says otherwise
Carbine
10-26-2011, 01:12 PM
:lol Like you have a counter argument. To be honest, I don't even think you understand what was written.
What you wrote makes no sense to anyone here.
Pointguard
10-26-2011, 01:15 PM
Tmac lebron and durant are/were better scorers than wade
Mello too.
The opposition counter was going to be the playoffs argument to be factored in.
D-Wade316
10-26-2011, 01:18 PM
Mello too.
The opposition counter was going to be the playoffs argument to be factored in.
The facts says otherwise.
Playoffs? Don't even get me started.
Pointguard
10-26-2011, 01:20 PM
What you wrote makes no sense to anyone here.
Only you. You really think Dirk is on the level of Kobe, Jordan, AI??? Shaq, Durant, Wade, Barkley??? Did Dirk ever crack top three scoring wise? This is puzzling to you? Please provide a counter argument.
rodman91
10-26-2011, 02:31 PM
Wow, this is from a guy that has Rodman as a screen-name and avatar. Do you really know what defense is?
:lol not arguable.. certainly better. My english is killing me sometimes.
ACCBaller1403
10-26-2011, 02:42 PM
Only you. You really think Dirk is on the level of Kobe, Jordan, AI??? Shaq, Durant, Wade, Barkley??? Did Dirk ever crack top three scoring wise? This is puzzling to you? Please provide a counter argument.
Kobe, Jordan, and Shaq no. On par with Wade and Durant. Certainly better than AI.
Dirk has never been a shoot 30 times a game player so you can't expect him to be at the ppg levels they are.
LOL @ people acting Like KG was some offensive liability to prop Dirk up. :facepalm
KG's PPG from 1999-2000 to 2006-07
22.9 (playoffs 18.8)
22.0 (playoffs 21.0)
21.2 (playoffs 24.0)
23.0 (playoffs 27.0)
24.2 (playoffs 24.3)
22.2
21.8
22.4
Dirk PPG during the same period
17.5 (it was his 2nd year, I admit)
21.8 (playoffs 23.4)
23.4 (playoffs 28.4)
25.1 (playoffs 25.3)
21.8 (playoffs 26.6)
26.1 (playoffs 23.7)
26.6 (playoffs 27.0)
24.6 (playoffs 19.7)
Yeah, Dirk is a better scorer and always has been but stop acting like KG was ****ing Ben Wallace out there.
Kobe, Jordan, and Shaq no. On par with Wade and Durant. Certainly better than AI.
Dirk has never been a shoot 30 times a game player so you can't expect him to be at the ppg levels they are.
Dwyane Wade career: 25.4 PPG on 48.5 shooting
Dirk: 23.0 PPG on 47.6 shooting
:facepalm
DeuceWallaces
10-26-2011, 02:50 PM
Yeah, I'm OK with that statement.
DMAVS41
10-26-2011, 03:51 PM
Only you. You really think Dirk is on the level of Kobe, Jordan, AI??? Shaq, Durant, Wade, Barkley??? Did Dirk ever crack top three scoring wise? This is puzzling to you? Please provide a counter argument.
LOL....so now volume gets completely ignored.
Here are some facts for you...playoffs:
kobe 25.4 ppg on 44.8/33.5/81.5.....54.2% TS
dirk 25.9 ppg on 46.5/38.4/89.2.....58.4% TS
But yea, Dirk isn't an elite scorer. He just trumps Kobe in every scoring statistic there is. And Kobe is absolutely an elite scorer.
Do you realize that Dirk is 15th all time in playoff points scored?
Do you realize that Dirk is 8th all time in playoff points per game?
Do you realize that Dirk is 28th all time in playoff true shooting percentage? Which by my count is the highest TS% in NBA playoff history for any player averaging over 25ppg in their playoff careers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but by my count, Dirk is the most efficient scorer in playoff history over 25ppg.
LOL...and he's not elite...
LOL....so now volume gets completely ignored.
Here are some facts for you...playoffs:
kobe 25.4 ppg on 44.8/33.5/81.5.....54.2% TS
dirk 25.9 ppg on 46.5/38.4/89.2.....58.4% TS
But yea, Dirk isn't an elite scorer. He just trumps Kobe in every scoring statistic there is. And Kobe is absolutely an elite scorer.
Do you realize that Dirk is 15th all time in playoff points scored?
Do you realize that Dirk is 8th all time in playoff points per game?
Do you realize that Dirk is 28th all time in playoff true shooting percentage? Which by my count is the highest TS% in NBA playoff history for any player averaging over 25ppg in their playoff careers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but by my count, Dirk is the most efficient scorer in playoff history over 25ppg.
LOL...and he's not elite...
TS is obviously going to favor Dirk over a lot of players because of FT% :rolleyes:
DMAVS41
10-26-2011, 04:13 PM
TS is obviously going to favor Dirk over a lot of players because of FT% :rolleyes:
That is why I listed fg% and 3p% as well....i listed everything.
There isn't one area in playoff scoring that Kobe beats Dirk in. Not ppg, not fg%, not 3p%, not ft%......not one.
Would anyone claim Kobe as not an elite scorer? Of course not.
And again, 8th all time in playoff ppg and no matter how you break it down...one of the most efficient high volume scorers in the history of the nba playoffs.
oh, and he's one of the most clutch players of his era and all time in terms of scoring....and he's a rock solid 5 of 12 on playoff game winners.
kobe? 7 of 25 on playoff game winners.
no matter how you break it down, dirk is absolutely right there with Kobe as a scorer in the playoffs.
rodman91
10-26-2011, 04:14 PM
Dirk is an elite scorer. Don't be stats nerds..even though his stats says same.
7 footer with one of the greatest shooting touch.He has one of the most impossible move to guard.He is one of the best go to guy. And clutch.
You don't even need his records to see it.But still by stats, how many guys have 48% FG, 38% 3pts and 88% FT while scoring 23 ppg in 13 years?
NugzHeat3
10-26-2011, 04:39 PM
Only you. You really think Dirk is on the level of Kobe, Jordan, AI??? Shaq, Durant, Wade, Barkley??? Did Dirk ever crack top three scoring wise? This is puzzling to you? Please provide a counter argument.
Iverson isn't even as good of a scorer as Dirk and you have him up there with Jordan and Kobe.
Then you wonder why people are laughing at you.
Iverson in single coverage is a pretty deadly scorer but the fact is he's undersized, a terrible finisher around the rim besides the occasional acrobatic, reverse lay up he'll hit and has poor shot selection.
There is no team that willl benefit more from Iverson than Dirk. Iverson puts more pressure on the defense with his dribble penetration which creates for his teammates directly and indirectly but Dirk's shooting ability from all regions on the court, his ability to space so far out so the defense has to stick with him at all times is equally effective.
I don't know whats your criteria but there are two things that can put Iverson above Dirk. One is ppg which is obviously a flawed stat.
The second is explosive scoring which is something Iverson has a clear edge in. But once you get to a certain point for me, at least 25+ ppg, I'll take the consistent scorer over the more explosive because I'm not exactly a fan of those 20 pt on 7/23 nights.
I wouldn't put Dominique up there either despite his gaudy volume numbers. The guy was a selfish player (Kevin Wills called him out for being a hog) and has a weak playoff career besides the duel with Bird. I'm not talking about his team success but individually, he never did much in the playoffs and always declined compared to the season.
Nique is more aggressive, attacks really hard from the mid-low post region but the classic example of style over substance. I like his skillset though. Crafty on the block with the turnaround jumper, dropstep and I like how effectively he used the glass on those one handed shots coming top speed on penetration. Solid shooter uptill midrange but nowhere near Dirk like.
I'll give you Kobe, Jordan, Barkley, Wade, Shaq. Iverson, Nique and Durant are meh.
bizil
10-26-2011, 06:33 PM
I hate to get off topic, but those who say Nique was more style than substance I gotta disagree with. I don't think Nique gets credit for the way he evolved throughout his career with his all around game and shot selection. And on top of it, Fratello admitted he told Nique to jack. Cause that was their best chance to win. Look at Nique's supporting casts compared to the other legends of his era. He got the Hawks several 50 win seasons as it was anyway. Kevin Willis was a borderline All Star type at best who has NO right to knock Nique. If anything, he needs to knock the coaches if anything who told Nique to jack.
Now in comparing Dirk to Nique, I wouldnt complain at all if someone chose Dirk over Nique. However, Nique has just as much takeover ability scoring as Dirk. Rebounding wise, I feel Nique rebounded his position better than Dirk. And Nique is a better one on one defender than Dirk. Passing wise I would say they are even. But Dirk is such a matchup nightmare that it can supercede that advantages Nique brought to the table. And I'm a huge Nique fan. And I can see how one would take Dirk over Nique. But Nique WASN'T more style than substance. Guys who are more style than substance are guys like Harold Miner, who was a bust. Or on a higher level guys like JR Rider, Ricky Davis, JR Smith, etc. Highly talented, freak athlete, and good players. But they didn't get the most out of there ability.
Guys like Nique and AI are who they are. They are true Batman and can carry a team. They have the heart of a lion and are truly HOF players. But I admit, guys like MJ, Kobe, Wade, and West are on another level than AI. And SF's like Bird, Doc, Barry, and Bron are on another level than Nique. The reason being is because they have more complete all around games and are more effecient scoring the rock. But other than guys like that, I feel Nique and AI don't have to take a backseat to any players at their positions. U can argue others of course, but the guys I named I would CLEARLY take over a Nique or AI.
knickswin
10-26-2011, 07:23 PM
Dirk is an elite scorer. Don't be stats nerds..even though his stats says same.
7 footer with one of the greatest shooting touch.He has one of the most impossible move to guard.He is one of the best go to guy. And clutch.
You don't even need his records to see it.But still by stats, how many guys have 48% FG, 38% 3pts and 88% FT while scoring 23 ppg in 13 years?
seriously, this is a dude who's dropped 50 points in a playoff games (granted, it was against the Suns who obviously didn't hang their hat on defense) and just scored 48 points in a playoff game with insane efficiency . . . but he isn't an elite scorer. Lol.
The idea that Dirk isn't in the same league as Durant as a scorer is absurd. Dirk could probably drop 30ppg if all the Mavs did was run him around screens all day, but that's not using him to the best of his abilities. I actually think Dirk is a good model for Durant to mold his game after as he continues to improve.
ACCBaller1403
10-26-2011, 08:02 PM
Dwyane Wade career: 25.4 PPG on 48.5 shooting
Dirk: 23.0 PPG on 47.6 shooting
:facepalm
And?
I said they were on par with each other.
What's your point numbskull?
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 02:02 AM
LOL....so now volume gets completely ignored.
Here are some facts for you...playoffs:
kobe 25.4 ppg on 44.8/33.5/81.5.....54.2% TS
dirk 25.9 ppg on 46.5/38.4/89.2.....58.4% TS
But yea, Dirk isn't an elite scorer. He just trumps Kobe in every scoring statistic there is. And Kobe is absolutely an elite scorer.
Do you realize that Dirk is 15th all time in playoff points scored?
Do you realize that Dirk is 8th all time in playoff points per game?
Do you realize that Dirk is 28th all time in playoff true shooting percentage? Which by my count is the highest TS% in NBA playoff history for any player averaging over 25ppg in their playoff careers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but by my count, Dirk is the most efficient scorer in playoff history over 25ppg.
LOL...and he's not elite...
Scorer means you score alot? No?
A scorer scores points. An elite scorer is among the top scorers. Excuses are never consulted. If Yao didn't get tired, he could take a high volume of shots - but he couldn't. Therefore he isn't in the argument.
If another player scores more than you, who is the greater scorer? If you are not among the top scorers, it is impossible to be an elite scorer. I'll just stick with the elite argument for now, maybe we do the next to elite later.
Do you really think Dirk is on the level of Jordan, Hakeem, AI, Wilt, Shaq, Baylor, Gervin, Wade, Lebron? Those guys are the elite. I might be missing somebody but it isn't Dirk. Dirk doesn't have multiple years of great scoring like these guys have. Therefore he can't be considered in their company. Kobe is in there company because he's got several years where he leads in regular season and post season like those guys. There are years where he stands out. Dirk just doesn't have the feature these guys have. Dirk has no standout year where you go "Wow! what a scoring accomplishment." Are you seriously trying to say Dirk belongs in that company???
Did somebody say efficient scorer? - its not the same thing. Artis GIlmore was an incredibly efficient scorer.
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 02:13 AM
That is why I listed fg% and 3p% as well....i listed everything.
There isn't one area in playoff scoring that Kobe beats Dirk in. Not ppg, not fg%, not 3p%, not ft%......not one.
Would anyone claim Kobe as not an elite scorer? Of course not.
And again, 8th all time in playoff ppg and no matter how you break it down...one of the most efficient high volume scorers in the history of the nba playoffs.
oh, and he's one of the most clutch players of his era and all time in terms of scoring....and he's a rock solid 5 of 12 on playoff game winners.
kobe? 7 of 25 on playoff game winners.
no matter how you break it down, dirk is absolutely right there with Kobe as a scorer in the playoffs.
Dirk does get credit for having a long peak. I think he was elite one year but he is more of a consistently high scorer in the playoffs than he is an elite scorer.
If another player scores more than you, who is the greater scorer? If you are not among the top scorers, it is impossible to be an elite scorer. I'll just stick with the elite argument for now, maybe we do the next to elite later.
Dirk averages more PPG in the playoffs than Kobe. So you're saying that Dirk is more of an elite scorer in the playoffs than Kobe?
I'm not necessarily saying Dirk is more of an elite scorer, but that's where your logic is taking it.
Another thing that goes into this is that almost anyone would agree that Dirk is almost impossible to defend. To me, the group of people who are "almost impossible to defend" are all in that upper echelon.
tpols
10-27-2011, 03:05 AM
Dirk's highest scoring outputs in the playoffs:
28.4 on 49% eFG
27.7 on 51% eFG
27.0 on 49% eFG
26.8 on 51% eFG
26.7 on 57% eFG
Kobe's highest scoring outputs in the playoffs:
32.8 on 50% eFG
32.1 on 47% eFG
30.2 on 49% eFG
30.1 on 51% eFG
29.4 on 49% eFG
Kobe has SIX playoff runs with a higher ppg than Dirk and he is right there with him efficiency wise.. from the field they shoot almost the same[Dirk is 1% higher in FG and eFG] except that Kobe does it on a much higher volume.. which would make Dirk's efficiencies drop well more than that 1%. Probably 2 to 3% if he tried to score on Kobe's volume.. possibly even more. He's not on his level as a scorer in the playoffs or the regular season.. pretty much undebatable.
I didn't say that Dirk was better. I was saying his logic is bad, which sounds like I'm sort of agreeing with you... even though I don't agree with the way you put it. I said that Dirk has a higher career PPG which, under his very limited logic model, says that Dirk is more of an elite scorer in the playoffs. My point was to take other things into consideration other than PPG.
But anyway.. you're wrong about Kobe being withen 1% efficiency. If we're going off those seasons you listed, Kobe is at 49.2% and Dirk is at 51.4%. And if we take your idea and lower Dirk's efficiencies by 2% assuming he tries to shoot at Kobe's volume... He'd get the extra points and STILL have .2 higher efficiency than Kobe.
Also, I'm not a big fan of dropping off player's seasons with bad numbers just because it helps my argument. I've never done it with Dirk, even though he was garbage early in his career. To me, that's the tradeoff for having more seasons you can (probably) play, meaning more seasons you can rack up stats and title runs.
tpols
10-27-2011, 03:09 AM
Dirk averages more PPG in the playoffs than Kobe. So you're saying that Dirk is more of an elite scorer in the playoffs than Kobe?
.
Nah.. what he's saying is that Dirk has maintained his 25 ppg averages more consistently than Kobe over the course of his career. Kobe started off scoring 8 ppg for a few years, and then he went into the teens. and then to the low twenties, and then he started to explode into the thirties. In his prime though, he was in the thirties. Dirk never approached that.
So you can say career wise Dirk is on Kobe's level because Kobe took longer to mature[because he came straight from HS] but thats like saying Pau Gasol is on Kevin Garnett's level as a player since they both have 20/10 career averages. It's just a skewed comparison that lacks all context.
tpols
10-27-2011, 03:12 AM
Ya lets just throw out seasons that don't fit in with your agenda. Sure.
Use 2001-2010 prime Kobe versus 2002-2011 prime Dirk. How is that not fair? Comparing Kobe's numbers when he was a bench player to Dirk's as a first option somehow is though?
Again.. Pau Gasol=Kevin Garnett.. both 20/10 career averages. The fact that KG had to adapt straight from HS and Pau came in a seasoned Euro vet doesnt matter right?
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 03:23 AM
lol. Dork can't see Kobe as a scorer.
40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20
50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2
60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 03:24 AM
Iverson isn't even as good of a scorer as Dirk and you have him up there with Jordan and Kobe.
Then you wonder why people are laughing at you.
:lol seriously. Look up the word scorer. It will say something about total points scored or one who scores. Not one thing will appear about how or the level of accuracy. I never said anything about offensive impact. Your little thesis below isn't applicable. A scorer scores. Now if you say complete scorer or efficient scorer then your little irrelevant thesis below could mean something. But it isn't like we are asking for a lot of understanding from you to understand this.
At the end of the day Iverson was asked for an uncommon scoring burden. He could win while taking on that scoring burden. I don't fault him in loosing to a prime Shaq and a good Kobe that year and sorry, if Shaq does a Lebron Philly wins that year. The difference between AI and most scorers is that he can consistently take on the burden and even get to the finals with it. You know like I know that Iverson wasn't getting calls - Shaq even commented on this. Not even Jordan consistently went at the basket like Iverson.
Iverson attacked like few other players. You can't measure his impact against a guy that had the convenience of rarely stepping out of his comfort zone. Read the Art of War. A guy that disorients the defense and causes confusion isn't operating at the same level of a jump shooter. And AI was further into enemy territory than Dirk. AI made himself taller by getting deep into the defense and was flat out more prolific.
So you can say career wise Dirk is on Kobe's level because Kobe took longer to mature[because he came straight from HS] but thats like saying Pau Gasol is on Kevin Garnett's level as a player since they both have 20/10 career averages. It's just a skewed comparison that lacks all context.
But Dirk vs Kobe isn't skewed because they both didn't go to college. Dirk should get credit for having a longer (more consistant, matured faster?) scoring ability than Kobe.
Plus even with you picking and choosing 5 seasons, Dirk still has 2.2% efficiency on Kobe which you implied would get Dirk to Kobe's volume.
Both their career playoff high is 50 points. (against the same team).
For their career, they are both virtually impossible to stop.
lol. Dork can't see Kobe as a scorer.
40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20
50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2
60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
We're talking about playoffs, bro. As a Mavs fan, I've heard that that's the only time that counts.
Plus.. where the hell did I say that Dirk was a better scorer than Kobe? I was just saying that some of the reasons people were throwing out were dumb.
:lol seriously. Look up the word scorer. It will say something about total points scored or one who scores. Not one thing will appear about how or the level of accuracy. I never said anything about offensive impact. Your little thesis below isn't applicable. A scorer scores. Now if you say complete scorer or efficient scorer then your little irrelevant thesis below could mean something. But it isn't like we are asking for a lot of understanding from you to understand this.
At the end of the day Iverson was asked for an uncommon scoring burden. He could win while taking on that scoring burden. I don't fault him in loosing to a prime Shaq and a good Kobe that year and sorry, if Shaq does a Lebron Philly wins that year. The difference between AI and most scorers is that he can consistently take on the burden and even get to the finals with it. You know like I know that Iverson wasn't getting calls - Shaq even commented on this. Not even Jordan consistently went at the basket like Iverson.
Iverson attacked like few other players. You can't measure his impact against a guy that had the convenience of rarely stepping out of his comfort zone. Read the Art of War. A guy that disorients the defense and causes confusion isn't operating at the same level of a jump shooter. And AI was further into enemy territory than Dirk. AI made himself taller by getting deep into the defense and was flat out more prolific.
% have to come into play at some point. Ty Lawson can take every shot in a game and have 31 points on horrible shooting, while Dirk scores 31 on 60% shooting. People are going to say Dirk was the better scorer. It's not as black and white as "however many points are in the boxscore".
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 03:28 AM
We're talking about playoffs, bro. As a Mavs fan, I've heard that that's the only time that counts.
Plus.. where the hell did I say that Dirk was a better scorer than Kobe?
He's not as good in the PS. He's nowhere near as good in the RS.
What is there to discuss? He isn't on Kobe's level.
Seriously. Look at those numbers again. Kobe absolutely blows him away.
He's not as good in the PS. He's nowhere near as good in the RS.
What is there to discuss? He isn't on Kobe's level.
Seriously. Look at those numbers again. Kobe absolutely blows him away.
You didn't say anything about the PS except "He's not as good in the PS". Not really a big argument there.
Over their career, Dirk has a higher PPG. Over 5 prime seasons Kobe has a few points higher on 2+% less efficiency. Their career highs are the same.
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 03:39 AM
Dirk averages more PPG in the playoffs than Kobe. So you're saying that Dirk is more of an elite scorer in the playoffs than Kobe?
I'm not necessarily saying Dirk is more of an elite scorer, but that's where your logic is taking it.
Another thing that goes into this is that almost anyone would agree that Dirk is almost impossible to defend. To me, the group of people who are "almost impossible to defend" are all in that upper echelon.
This isn't really true at all. Dirk had a good year this year, but Stephen Jackson held him down in the playoffs before. He has never been elite as a prolific scorer over the course of a whole year. We don't know if Dirk can handle being a top scorer for a whole year, game in and game out. This is not unreasonable for any player in any sport to be considered elite.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 03:46 AM
Over their career, Dirk has a higher PPG. Over 5 prime seasons Kobe has a few points higher on 2+% less efficiency. Their career highs are the same.
Kobe has more 40+ point games. He has more 30+ point games.
His averages are way higher. He has about 7 post-seasons with higher averages than Dirk's absolute best.
Then he crushes Dork in the RS.
Dork isn't close.
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 03:52 AM
% have to come into play at some point. Ty Lawson can take every shot in a game and have 31 points on horrible shooting, while Dirk scores 31 on 60% shooting. People are going to say Dirk was the better scorer. It's not as black and white as "however many points are in the boxscore".
Seriously, if a player puts pressure on a defense for 48 minutes and 95 games by insistent attack and he gets to the finals he's done what is asked for him. I just don't think its fair if you took the first game to the last, lets say game 95 is their last game in the finals (or game 83 is the first in the playoffs) and we compared Dirks best year to Iverson's or Kobe's better years, we would see that AI/Kobe scored more than Dirk in likely 80 games. In no other sport would anybody consider the Dirk scorer better. It's not fathomable.
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 03:55 AM
You didn't say anything about the PS except "He's not as good in the PS". Not really a big argument there.
Over their career, Dirk has a higher PPG. Over 5 prime seasons Kobe has a few points higher on 2+% less efficiency. Their career highs are the same.
Since when are 7 footers supposed to be shooting the same percentage as shooting guards???
Kobe has more 40+ point games. He has more 30+ point games.
His averages are way higher. He has about 7 post-seasons with higher averages than Dirk's absolute best.
Then he crushes Dork in the RS.
Dork isn't close.
You originally responded to a post I made about their post season numbers. This is the 2nd time I've pointed that out to you. Stop coming at me with regular season numbers, because I never said Dirk was a better regular season scorer.
Seriously, if a player puts pressure on a defense for 48 minutes and 95 games by insistent attack and he gets to the finals he's done what is asked for him. I just don't think its fair if you took the first game to the last, lets say game 95 is their last game in the finals (or game 83 is the first in the playoffs) and we compared Dirks best year to Iverson's or Kobe's better years, we would see that AI/Kobe scored more than Dirk in likely 80 games. In no other sport would anybody consider the Dirk scorer better. It's not fathomable.
You didn't really respond to my post.
You're saying it's as cut and dry as "If person A scores more, he's a better scorer than person B."
I'm saying that at SOME point %s obviously matter (most people would say that person A [31 points, 60% shooting] was the better "scorer" compared to person B [32 points, 20%shooting]).
So if % does matter at some extreme level, we have to find how un-extreme it has to get before it doesn't matter anymore. Then you looked at Dirk and AI compared to those findings and determine who the better scorer is.
That's all IMO obviously and I don't even know who would come out on top.. I just think it's silly to say "**** all the other statistics". To me, I look at "Okay Player X has the ball. We really need a score. How much do I trust his ability". I think Dirk matches up really well there. Dirk has his shortcomings, but his ability to score on any defender should be unquestioned at this point.
________
Completely unrelated.. but most of Kobe's 40+ streaks and huge games came when his team was completely garbage and he HAD to take a ton of the shots. Notice when Kobe has a winning team, his scoring goes back down. Notice how he doesn't have that many 40 point games in the playoffs and his Finals scoring numbers are even lower. Before you get mad, none of this is a knock on Kobe. That's just how the system is. It's not because Kobe all of a sudden can't score as much (up until this season at least) it's because when your team is better, it's easier to win when one person isn't dominating the ball. Kobe knows that. If he could trade all those 40 point games for another ring he'd do it in a heartbeat and it wouldn't make him any less of a "scorer".
Dirk's teams have almost always won 50+ games and haven't needed him to score more than 25 a night. When his teammates do have an off night (which happens more rarely than Kobe's teams during those years), Dirk usually comes through with a huge scoring game to lift the load. It doesn't mean that one night when he's going for 40+ he figured something out, and then forgot it the next game. It just means that showing the world you can score a bunch isn't the point of being an NBA superstar and it's not always conducive to winning.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:14 AM
You originally responded to a post I made about their post season numbers. This is the 2nd time I've pointed that out to you. Stop coming at me with regular season numbers, because I never said Dirk was a better regular season scorer.
I pointed out the PS as well. :oldlol:
Kobe is the better PS and RS scorer.
Dork ain't on Kobe's level. Deal wit it.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:15 AM
lol. Dork can't see Kobe as a scorer.
40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20
50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2
60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
His averages are way higher. He has about 7 post-seasons with higher averages than Dirk's absolute best.
Again, Kobe's career playoffs PPG are lower than Dirk's. Kobe fans always love to throw out the seasons when he was young and bad, but I never see them throw out MJ's old and bad stats when they're comparing him to Kobe.
And Kobe scored 1-3 more points on worse shooting. I don't think that's in the "we should never have a discussion about it" category.
But it's clear you're not interested in having a discussion.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:40 AM
Sorry, Dirk having a 2-3% TS means very little when Kobe's volume is clearly better by a pretty large gap. Besides, TS%/efficiency isn't everything, or else I'd consider Dantley a far better scorer than either Kobe or Dirk and obviously that isn't the case. What is there to discuss? Kobe blows him away in the RS, and his scoring game has no problem translating to the PS, so why exactly should I believe Dirk is a better PS scorer? It's not like Dirk is raising his game to some mythical level or anything. He's around 27-28 PPG/59-60% TS for his prime runs, which is awesome, but Kobe is around 30+ PPPG/57% TS which is even better. He has more 30+ point games in the PS, he has more 40+ point games in the PS. His best scoring runs in the PS are better than Dirk's.
Seems to me that Kobe is clearly the better PS scorer. :confusedshrug:
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:44 AM
.
________
Completely unrelated.. but most of Kobe's 40+ streaks and huge games came when his team was completely garbage and he HAD to take a ton of the shots. Notice when Kobe has a winning team, his scoring goes back down. Notice how he doesn't have that many 40 point games in the playoffs and his Finals scoring numbers are even lower. Before you get mad, none of this is a knock on Kobe. That's just how the system is. It's not because Kobe all of a sudden can't score as much (up until this season at least) it's because when your team is better, it's easier to win when one person isn't dominating the ball. Kobe knows that. If he could trade all those 40 point games for another ring he'd do it in a heartbeat and it wouldn't make him any less of a "scorer".
.
lol @ this lame excuse. Kobe put up those numbers because he had to. There have been numerous stretches where the Mavs could have used Dirk going off like that, but he can't. He's not good enough. lol @ u acting like it's simply just a case of "taking more shots". :roll:
King24
10-27-2011, 04:46 AM
lol. Dork can't see Kobe as a scorer.
40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20
50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2
60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Damn. That's a astronomical gap. :eek:
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 05:24 AM
You didn't really respond to my post.
You're saying it's as cut and dry as "If person A scores more, he's a better scorer than person B."
I'm saying that at SOME point %s obviously matter (most people would say that person A [31 points, 60% shooting] was the better "scorer" compared to person B [32 points, 20%shooting]).
So if % does matter at some extreme level, we have to find how un-extreme it has to get before it doesn't matter anymore. Then you looked at Dirk and AI compared to those findings and determine who the better scorer is.
That's all IMO obviously and I don't even know who would come out on top.. I just think it's silly to say "**** all the other statistics". To me, I look at "Okay Player X has the ball. We really need a score. How much do I trust his ability". I think Dirk matches up really well there. Dirk has his shortcomings, but his ability to score on any defender should be unquestioned at this point.
Primary function of a scorer? He scores. Primary function of an elite scorer: He scores at the highest level in his sport. The other things are conditional on the first premise. Shooting percentage does not supersede scoring. You must be in the highest echeleon of scoring to be elite. No excuses. Now, there are circumstances where I think terrible percentage comes into play, it's cancelled out if you can win with it as it might be part of the strategy. Your condition above sounds like you are talking about clutch scoring. It has nothing to do whatsoever with prolific scoring at all. Robert Horry was not a prolific scorer but he subscribes to your condition above.
Dirk is a great scorer, but I would bet money on the guys I mentioned above if I wanted 40 points for sure. I don't question any of the elite scorers ability to score on any one defender - seriously that should go without question. Derrick Rose will blow by any defender in the league and get a layup out of it rather than a jump shot. Dirk doesn't shoot a great percentage for a seven footer either.
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 05:24 AM
Damn. That's a astronomical gap. :eek:
Its like we aren't comparing equals.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 07:29 AM
Scorer means you score alot? No?
A scorer scores points. An elite scorer is among the top scorers. Excuses are never consulted. If Yao didn't get tired, he could take a high volume of shots - but he couldn't. Therefore he isn't in the argument.
If another player scores more than you, who is the greater scorer? If you are not among the top scorers, it is impossible to be an elite scorer. I'll just stick with the elite argument for now, maybe we do the next to elite later.
Do you really think Dirk is on the level of Jordan, Hakeem, AI, Wilt, Shaq, Baylor, Gervin, Wade, Lebron? Those guys are the elite. I might be missing somebody but it isn't Dirk. Dirk doesn't have multiple years of great scoring like these guys have. Therefore he can't be considered in their company. Kobe is in there company because he's got several years where he leads in regular season and post season like those guys. There are years where he stands out. Dirk just doesn't have the feature these guys have. Dirk has no standout year where you go "Wow! what a scoring accomplishment." Are you seriously trying to say Dirk belongs in that company???
Did somebody say efficient scorer? - its not the same thing. Artis GIlmore was an incredibly efficient scorer.
It depends on your definition. In the regular season? No, I don't think Dirk belongs in that company. Mainly because he doesn't force up as many shots and plays far more team oriented ball than a lot of those guys on that list.
In the playoffs? Absolutely. He's 8th all time in playoff ppg. He's the most efficient high volume scorer (over 25 ppg) in playoff history.
Dirk has had 7 seasons in the playoffs over 26.5 ppg. And he does that about as efficiently as anyone ever. Efficiency absolutely matters...its not just ppg. And even if it was....he's 8th all time in playoff ppg. You may value the regular season more. I don't. I care far more about the playoffs.
And if the 8th best ppg scorer in playoff history with best efficiency in playoff history over 25 ppg isn't elite, then only a couple guys in history are elite. Just depends on your definition. Its just semantics. He's absolutely without a doubt one of the 10 best playoff scorers of all time. That is elite to me.
Here are the guys that average more ppg than Dirk:
1. jordan
2. iverson
3. west
4. tmac
5. lebron
6. baylor
7. gervin
thats it. in the history of the nba....thats it.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 07:31 AM
Since when are 7 footers supposed to be shooting the same percentage as shooting guards???
Since when are 7 footers supposed to shoot a much better percentage from 3 and the ft line than most guards?
It depends on your definition. In the regular season? No, I don't think Dirk belongs in that company. Mainly because he doesn't force up as many shots and plays far more team oriented ball than a lot of those guys on that list.
In the playoffs? Absolutely. He's 8th all time in playoff ppg. He's the most efficient high volume scorer (over 25 ppg) in playoff history.
Dirk has had 7 seasons in the playoffs over 26.5 ppg. And he does that about as efficiently as anyone ever. Efficiency absolutely matters...its not just ppg. And even if it was....he's 8th all time in playoff ppg. You may value the regular season more. I don't. I care far more about the playoffs.
And if the 8th best ppg scorer in playoff history with best efficiency in playoff history over 25 ppg isn't elite, then only a couple guys in history are elite. Just depends on your definition. Its just semantics. He's absolutely without a doubt one of the 10 best playoff scorers of all time. That is elite to me.
Here are the guys that average more ppg than Dirk:
1. jordan
2. iverson
3. west
4. tmac
5. lebron
6. baylor
7. gervin
thats it. in the history of the nba....thats it.
:pimp:
sodap
10-27-2011, 08:54 AM
what is the problem of people making this all-time lists? what is the point of these made up rankings? what is the criteria behind them?
seriously, stop it. 'kobe is not top5' 'lebron is top23'5' 'marc gasol is not top4 center in the nba'
its hillarious
NugzHeat3
10-27-2011, 10:12 AM
:lol seriously. Look up the word scorer. It will say something about total points scored or one who scores. Not one thing will appear about how or the level of accuracy. I never said anything about offensive impact. Your little thesis below isn't applicable. A scorer scores. Now if you say complete scorer or efficient scorer then your little irrelevant thesis below could mean something. But it isn't like we are asking for a lot of understanding from you to understand this.
At the end of the day Iverson was asked for an uncommon scoring burden. He could win while taking on that scoring burden. I don't fault him in loosing to a prime Shaq and a good Kobe that year and sorry, if Shaq does a Lebron Philly wins that year. The difference between AI and most scorers is that he can consistently take on the burden and even get to the finals with it. You know like I know that Iverson wasn't getting calls - Shaq even commented on this. Not even Jordan consistently went at the basket like Iverson.
Iverson attacked like few other players. You can't measure his impact against a guy that had the convenience of rarely stepping out of his comfort zone. Read the Art of War. A guy that disorients the defense and causes confusion isn't operating at the same level of a jump shooter. And AI was further into enemy territory than Dirk. AI made himself taller by getting deep into the defense and was flat out more prolific.
It's clear as day your definition of scoring = ppg scored.
You would've been better off saying that instead of writing all that garbage.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 10:13 AM
And back to Kobe vs Dirk on ppg and efficiency.
In Kobe's 10 best playoff seasons. He averaged something around 28 ppg on something around 56% TS. I'm just doing it in my head so its no exact, but something around that.
In Dirk's 10 best playoff seasons. He averaged something around 26 ppg on just under 59% TS. Again, its not exact, but close enough.
So you people really think that a 2 point per game differential on worse overall efficiency is enough for somebody to be out of Dirk's league. LOL...and again, that is throwing out Kobe's 4 worst years...and only throwing out 1 year for Dirk.
Kobe certainly is more explosive, but that comes with his lower efficiency and selfishness as well.
To put it simply, Kobe has taken 4198 shots in 208 games. That is just over 20 shots a game. Dirk has taken 2272 shots in 124 games. That is 18 shots per game. And if we are using only Kobe's 10 best playoffs, he's actually averaged closer to 21 shots a game. Dirk remains at around 18 for his 10 seasons. So I'd take the guy scoring 26 a game on better efficiency in every category that takes anywhere from 2 to 3 less shots per game than a guy scoring 2 more points per game on worse efficiency and needs more shots/possessions to score.
Just me though.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 10:19 AM
It's clear as day your definition of scoring = ppg scored.
You would've been better off saying that instead of writing all that garbage.
Yep, didn't you know ppg is everything.
Clearly Iverson's 29.7 ppg on 40/33/76 49% TS makes him a better scorer than Dirk's 26 ppg on 46/38/89 58% TS. Forget that Iverson needs 4 or 5 more shots/possessions a game to get those 3.7 points.
NugzHeat3
10-27-2011, 10:28 AM
Yep, didn't you know ppg is everything.
Clearly Iverson's 29.7 ppg on 40/33/76 49% TS makes him a better scorer than Dirk's 26 ppg on 46/38/89 58% TS. Forget that Iverson needs 4 or 5 more shots/possessions a game to get those 3.7 points.
Wait till he tells you Jerry Stackhouse was better than Dirk too because of the scoring burden.
Iverson put more pressure on the defense than Dirk. That much is true. I admitted that earlier. But Dirk's shooting ability creates just as much for his team. And he was reading double teams, keeping defenses occupied last year just as well as he's ever done.
Efficiency obviously doesn't matter to some people here and I'm one of the guys who doesn't hold it in much regard as others.
There is no way one prefers Iverson to Dirk in the playoffs. Look at the % you posted. Iverson is more explosive but he can shoot you out of games just as easily despite the pressure he put on the defense.
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 11:44 AM
It depends on your definition. In the regular season? No, I don't think Dirk belongs in that company. Mainly because he doesn't force up as many shots and plays far more team oriented ball than a lot of those guys on that list.
In the playoffs? Absolutely. He's 8th all time in playoff ppg. He's the most efficient high volume scorer (over 25 ppg) in playoff history.
Dirk has had 7 seasons in the playoffs over 26.5 ppg. And he does that about as efficiently as anyone ever. Efficiency absolutely matters...its not just ppg. And even if it was....he's 8th all time in playoff ppg. You may value the regular season more. I don't. I care far more about the playoffs.
And if the 8th best ppg scorer in playoff history with best efficiency in playoff history over 25 ppg isn't elite, then only a couple guys in history are elite. Just depends on your definition. Its just semantics. He's absolutely without a doubt one of the 10 best playoff scorers of all time. That is elite to me.
Here are the guys that average more ppg than Dirk:
1. jordan
2. iverson
3. west
4. tmac
5. lebron
6. baylor
7. gervin
thats it. in the history of the nba....thats it.
Durant is at a dead tie with Dirk and he's 4 years before his prime.
As for scoring elite its scoring overall just like it is in every other sport on the planet. Another thing is that Dirk always scored well in the playoffs, his strong point was that he just didn't have a bad scoring post season. That doesn't automatically make him elite. It makes him a steady high scorer. Elite scorers do something other players can't or don't do. Dirk has never averaged 29ppg in the regular season or in a post season run. Dirk never got separation in some scoring capacity. The Elite surpasses what the great do.
Elite scorers have records. Elite scorers score 80 points in a game. Elite scorers can average 40 points over 5 games or 10 games. Elite scorers are right at the top in multiple years. Elite scorers don't have three or four contemporaries scoring more points than them year in and year out. Every year Dirk played, somebody was scoring more and shooting better than him over the course of the year. Elite means you are the best. Dirk doesn't have multiple elite scoring playoff runs or games or year that these other guys have had.
I never heard of a non elite anything that wasn't among the top.
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 12:03 PM
Yep, didn't you know ppg is everything.
Clearly Iverson's 29.7 ppg on 40/33/76 49% TS makes him a better scorer than Dirk's 26 ppg on 46/38/89 58% TS. Forget that Iverson needs 4 or 5 more shots/possessions a game to get those 3.7 points.
Dirk shot 37.5% in the last three games of the finals. Jason Terry shot 58% or 21 percentage points higher over that period 24ppg and 22ppg respectively. Was Terry the better scorer when the series was decided?
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 12:28 PM
Wait till he tells you Jerry Stackhouse was better than Dirk too because of the scoring burden.
Iverson put more pressure on the defense than Dirk. That much is true. I admitted that earlier. But Dirk's shooting ability creates just as much for his team. And he was reading double teams, keeping defenses occupied last year just as well as he's ever done.
Efficiency obviously doesn't matter to some people here and I'm one of the guys who doesn't hold it in much regard as others.
There is no way one prefers Iverson to Dirk in the playoffs. Look at the % you posted. Iverson is more explosive but he can shoot you out of games just as easily despite the pressure he put on the defense.
Iverson's team won by the chaos Iverson created. Function and role at times can mean more than efficiency. On one hand your boy Dmavs qualifies Dirk on his playoff scoring and then on the next downs it: AI eight year playoff average is higher than Dirk's highest scoring playoff run. You have to be elite to do something like that. And you are trying to tell me that AI isn't elite? So tell me? And Dirk's high scoring playoff average is his only qualifier for being elite. So we have to find another qualifier. But if we do that it creates other problems... like the Jason Terry one above. So now Dirk has the shooting percentage of Lebron, Wade, Jordan, Kareem, Durant, Wilt, Gervin, Shaq, Akeem and Barkley? Dirk isn't the volume scorer or the percentage scorer those guys were. He's not on their level in a game by game basis, a week by week basis, a month by month basis, a season by season basis or playoff by playoff basis.
LOL @ people acting Like KG was some offensive liability to prop Dirk up. :facepalm
KG's PPG from 1999-2000 to 2006-07
22.9 (playoffs 18.8)
22.0 (playoffs 21.0)
21.2 (playoffs 24.0)
23.0 (playoffs 27.0)
24.2 (playoffs 24.3)
22.2
21.8
22.4
Dirk PPG during the same period
17.5 (it was his 2nd year, I admit)
21.8 (playoffs 23.4)
23.4 (playoffs 28.4)
25.1 (playoffs 25.3)
21.8 (playoffs 26.6)
26.1 (playoffs 23.7)
26.6 (playoffs 27.0)
24.6 (playoffs 19.7)
Yeah, Dirk is a better scorer and always has been but stop acting like KG was ****ing Ben Wallace out there.
People need to stop ignoring this post.
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 02:35 PM
It's clear as day your definition of scoring = ppg scored.
You would've been better off saying that instead of writing all that garbage.
Haaa, mad cause you don't understand the words elite scorer? Think of the punishment I went thru cause you speaking loud in a vacuum.
Well then you call it. Year by year - he isn't in their league. Month by month -- he's no where near them. Scoring during a series - they all have him beat. Scoring during a playoff run - nah not so good for him. Individual games - speak up. What is your standard. Percentage and scoring? Curious, I mean you jumped at me.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 02:36 PM
Dirk shot 37.5% in the last three games of the finals. Jason Terry shot 58% or 21 percentage points higher over that period 24ppg and 22ppg respectively. Was Terry the better scorer when the series was decided?
my god...stop comparing 3 games to entire careers. dirk has 11 years of playoff games. more than enough to make conclusions about what he is.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 02:41 PM
Durant is at a dead tie with Dirk and he's 4 years before his prime.
As for scoring elite its scoring overall just like it is in every other sport on the planet. Another thing is that Dirk always scored well in the playoffs, his strong point was that he just didn't have a bad scoring post season. That doesn't automatically make him elite. It makes him a steady high scorer. Elite scorers do something other players can't or don't do. Dirk has never averaged 29ppg in the regular season or in a post season run. Dirk never got separation in some scoring capacity. The Elite surpasses what the great do.
Elite scorers have records. Elite scorers score 80 points in a game. Elite scorers can average 40 points over 5 games or 10 games. Elite scorers are right at the top in multiple years. Elite scorers don't have three or four contemporaries scoring more points than them year in and year out. Every year Dirk played, somebody was scoring more and shooting better than him over the course of the year. Elite means you are the best. Dirk doesn't have multiple elite scoring playoff runs or games or year that these other guys have had.
I never heard of a non elite anything that wasn't among the top.
What makes him elite is everything he does. You can't just ignore a huge aspect of scoring...which is efficiency. You can't also ignore consistency...another huge aspect of scoring.
I'll say again. Of the top 8 playoff scorers ever (and dirk is one of them by the way)....Dirk's overall efficiency is as good or better than everybody. A sound argument can be made that Dirk is the most efficient playoff scorer ever when you combine ppg with overall efficiency.
Sorry, we can't just ignore that because you think its all about ppg. You seem to ignore that Dirk does have records as well. He just turned in the most efficient scoring game in the history of the NBA in the playoffs. Since 1986, Dirk has two of the 16 best individual scoring games in the playoffs. The 50 against the Suns and 48 this year. And he's got another one at 46...which is top 24.
So you can't just ignore the aspects of scoring that don't fit your agenda...can't just ignore dirk's records..etc. sorry.
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 02:45 PM
People need to stop ignoring this post.
Its all good. People aren't comfortable with looking at KG as a scorer here. And in his playoff mix is an assortment of superb clutch play, him playing the point, elite level defense, elite level rebounding, elite level passing for a PF and great intensity. Good post Tripple R.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 02:51 PM
People need to stop ignoring this post.
I don't think anyone is ignoring it or acting like he's ben wallace. we just all know what kg is offensively. very good. very unselfish. just not a guy even close to dirk when you need to manufacture a bucket late in a tight game or run an offense through a player for a game or series in the playoffs.
nobody is saying KG is garbage offensively. that is just silly. but what i hate is when people try to break players down with that offense vs offense and defense vs defense approach. it leads to poor conclusions. i have KG over dirk all time still, but if you break it down the way most do, it wouldn't be close and would favor KG.
And anyone that just watched the last 11 years with any bit of objectivity knows that is a legit comparison.
Pointguard
10-27-2011, 03:47 PM
What makes him elite is everything he does. You can't just ignore a huge aspect of scoring...which is efficiency. You can't also ignore consistency...another huge aspect of scoring.
I'll say again. Of the top 8 playoff scorers ever (and dirk is one of them by the way)....Dirk's overall efficiency is as good or better than everybody. A sound argument can be made that Dirk is the most efficient playoff scorer ever when you combine ppg with overall efficiency.
Sorry, we can't just ignore that because you think its all about ppg. You seem to ignore that Dirk does have records as well. He just turned in the most efficient scoring game in the history of the NBA in the playoffs. Since 1986, Dirk has two of the 16 best individual scoring games in the playoffs. The 50 against the Suns and 48 this year. And he's got another one at 46...which is top 24.
So you can't just ignore the aspects of scoring that don't fit your agenda...can't just ignore dirk's records..etc. sorry.
Dirk has a record now??? Please share?
Scoring. Plain and simple. What player during Dirk's tenure was the most dominant post season scorer?
What player during Dirk's tenure scored the most points in a game in 50 years? Scored over 2400 points three times with two scoring titles? Three times he scored the most points in the post season. Four post seasons with 30+ppg.
What player during Dirk's tenure had four scoring titles and two post seasons as the highest scorer? 8 year playoff career right at 30ppg only behind the great MJ.
What player during Dirk's tenure, after his rookie campaign outscored Dirk, as Dirk hit his prime, every year in the regular season and every year in the playoffs (one exception). Scored over 2300 points twice with one scoring title. One playoff scoring lead with a whopping 35 ppg while being the games best well rounded player.
What player during Dirk's tenure scored over 2300 points once. Has a scoring title at 30ppg. One postseason scoring title at 33ppg. Outscored Dirk in 5 of his 8 years in the leagu in the regular seasonas well as most of his seven post seasons.
What player during Dirk's tenure has two scoring titles. Scored over 2400 points once. One post season scoring title.
Dirk never got a scoring title. Never scored 2200 points. He does have one post season scoring title (one of the lowest ever). Never scored 29 ppg in the regular season or in one postseason (all of the above have scored 30 in both). We can't say for sure he has the endurance and mental toughness to score 30ppg.
To be elite all time you have to be at least elite with your contemporaries. But I think Dirk is a great player but he's been getting accolades for things he isn't. And so what if he isn't an elite scorer. He's still great. A stellar playoff performer.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 03:54 PM
Dirk has a record now??? Please share?
Scoring. Plain and simple. What player during Dirk's tenure was the most dominant post season scorer?
What player during Dirk's tenure scored the most points in a game in 50 years? Scored over 2400 points three times with two scoring titles? Three times he scored the most points in the post season. Four post seasons with 30+ppg.
What player during Dirk's tenure had four scoring titles and two post seasons as the highest scorer? 8 year playoff career right at 30ppg only behind the great MJ.
What player during Dirk's tenure, after his rookie campaign outscored Dirk, as Dirk hit his prime, every year in the regular season and every year in the playoffs (one exception). Scored over 2300 points twice with one scoring title. One playoff scoring lead with a whopping 35 ppg while being the games best well rounded player.
What player during Dirk's tenure scored over 2300 points once. Has a scoring title at 30ppg. One postseason scoring title at 33ppg. Outscored Dirk in 5 of his 8 years in the leagu in the regular seasonas well as most of his seven post seasons.
What player during Dirk's tenure has two scoring titles. Scored over 2400 points once. One post season scoring title.
Dirk never got a scoring title. Never scored 2200 points. He does have one post season scoring title (one of the lowest ever). Never scored 29 ppg in the regular season or in one postseason (all of the above have scored 30 in both). We can't say for sure he has the endurance and mental toughness to score 30ppg.
To be elite all time you have to be at least elite with your contemporaries. But I think Dirk is a great player but he's been getting accolades for things he isn't. And so what if he isn't an elite scorer. He's still great. A stellar playoff performer.
Record? Dirk has the most efficient game in playoff history.....
I've been talking about the playoffs. I said if you wanted to talk about the regular season then I don't think Dirk belongs in that company of elite scorers. But I don't care all that much about the regular season. That is just me though.
You keep spouting off the highs....but what about the lows.
With all those highs, Kobe still only averaged 2 more ppg than Dirk in the playoffs in his 10 best playoff years vs Dirk's 10 best. 2 ppg....thats all. You can't ignore averages. That is what they are....averages. So if Kobe has more 40 point games, that means he has more bad games.
And the same goes for efficiency. You can't just ignore that Dirk trumps Kobe in every single efficiency stat there is in the playoffs. Every single one.
So think about it. 10 years vs 10 years....kobes' 10 best vs dirk's 10 best. and dirk is only 2 ppg behind him and easily more efficient overall.
and you want me to say kobe is in another league? LOL
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 03:58 PM
The gap between the two defensively trumps Dirk's advantage on offense. KG in a landslide.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 03:59 PM
Dirk has a record now??? Please share?
Scoring. Plain and simple. What player during Dirk's tenure was the most dominant post season scorer?
What player during Dirk's tenure scored the most points in a game in 50 years? Scored over 2400 points three times with two scoring titles? Three times he scored the most points in the post season. Four post seasons with 30+ppg.
What player during Dirk's tenure had four scoring titles and two post seasons as the highest scorer? 8 year playoff career right at 30ppg only behind the great MJ.
What player during Dirk's tenure, after his rookie campaign outscored Dirk, as Dirk hit his prime, every year in the regular season and every year in the playoffs (one exception). Scored over 2300 points twice with one scoring title. One playoff scoring lead with a whopping 35 ppg while being the games best well rounded player.
What player during Dirk's tenure scored over 2300 points once. Has a scoring title at 30ppg. One postseason scoring title at 33ppg. Outscored Dirk in 5 of his 8 years in the leagu in the regular seasonas well as most of his seven post seasons.
What player during Dirk's tenure has two scoring titles. Scored over 2400 points once. One post season scoring title.
Dirk never got a scoring title. Never scored 2200 points. He does have one post season scoring title (one of the lowest ever). Never scored 29 ppg in the regular season or in one postseason (all of the above have scored 30 in both). We can't say for sure he has the endurance and mental toughness to score 30ppg.
To be elite all time you have to be at least elite with your contemporaries. But I think Dirk is a great player but he's been getting accolades for things he isn't. And so what if he isn't an elite scorer. He's still great. A stellar playoff performer.
Straight ether. :bowdown:
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:01 PM
The gap between the two defensively trumps Dirk's advantage on offense. KG in a landslide.
This. Dork ain't on KG's level. SMH @ how overrated Dork has become.
:facepalm
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:03 PM
Straight ether. :bowdown:
again....if you actually compared dirk vs kobe in the playoffs...which is what i've been talking about
DIRK SCORES MORE POINTS ON BETTER FG%, 3PT%, FT%, AND TS%.
STRAIGHT ETHER
:cheers:
Bigsmoke
10-27-2011, 04:06 PM
maybe next year when Dirk have another MVP season.
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 04:06 PM
again....if you actually compared dirk vs kobe in the playoffs...which is what i've been talking about
DIRK SCORES MORE POINTS ON BETTER FG%, 3PT%, FT%, AND TS%.
STRAIGHT ETHER
:cheers:
against weaker defenses of course :oldlol:
Bigsmoke
10-27-2011, 04:08 PM
again....if you actually compared dirk vs kobe in the playoffs...which is what i've been talking about
DIRK SCORES MORE POINTS ON BETTER FG%, 3PT%, FT%, AND TS%.
STRAIGHT ETHER
:cheers:
lol just last year, u were shitting Dirk on every thread like u wasn't a Mavs fan.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:11 PM
against weaker defenses of course :oldlol:
what?
more than made up by the fact that kobe has played on far better teams.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:12 PM
playoff PER:
Dirk 24.7
Kobe 22.3
playoff ws/48
Dirk .207
Kobe .158
playoff ts%
Dirk 58.4
Kobe 54.2
playoff efg%
Dirk 49.4%
Kobe 48.1%
ORtg
Dirk 119
Kobe 110
OWS
Dirk 17 in 124 games
Kobe 19.5 in 208 games
LOL....does Kobe do anything related to scoring better than Dirk in the playoffs?
catch24
10-27-2011, 04:13 PM
again....if you actually compared dirk vs kobe in the playoffs...which is what i've been talking about
DIRK SCORES MORE POINTS ON BETTER FG%, 3PT%, FT%, AND TS%.
STRAIGHT ETHER
:cheers:
Kobe has also played more games, going deeper in the playoffs.
At his peak, he was a better scorer than Dirk. They're both great and their efficiency is nearly identical (i.e., eFG%), but Kobe's skillset is what separates the two.
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 04:16 PM
playoff PER:
Dirk 24.7
Kobe 22.3
Kobe
18- 12.5
19- 12.8
20- 19.1
21- 19.3
22- 25.0
Dirk
18
19
20
21
22- 22.3
:bowdown: to Dirk for avoiding the NBA playoffs until he was 22 :oldlol:
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 04:18 PM
what?
more than made up by the fact that kobe has played on far better teams.
PER has nothing do with playing a better team. Did LeBron's PER increase by playing with Wade and Bosh?
PTB Fan
10-27-2011, 04:18 PM
KG. I mean, he's a top 5 PF. I have him ranked 3rd on my list. His defense, all around game, impact and productiveness are the reason why he gets ranked so high.
When he got decent team mates in Minny, he took them pretty deep into the playoffs and won the MVP. Seriously, it's KG by far. And this is coming from a big Dirk fan.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:18 PM
Kobe has also played more games, going deeper in the playoffs.
At his peak, he was a better scorer than Dirk. They're both great and their efficiency is nearly identical (i.e., eFG%), but Kobe's skillset is what separates the two.
their overall efficiency is not identical. dirk is 4% higher on ts and has a clear edge in fg%, 3pt%, and ft%
and Dirk has averaged more ppg in the playoffs.
kobe is more explosive in the playoffs...that doesn't mean better. higher highs...lower lows. averages are there for a reason.
and even if we shave off kobe's worst 4 years.....he's only 2 ppg ahead of dirk on worse efficiency overall.
definitely not a gap or in different leagues at all.
i also don't think sample size is an issue for either of them at all. we have over a decade of evidence for both of them. we know what kind of scorers they are in the playoffs. dirk has played over a season and a half worth of playoff games spread out over 11 years.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:20 PM
Kobe
18- 12.5
19- 12.8
20- 19.1
21- 19.3
22- 25.0
Dirk
18
19
20
21
22- 22.3
:bowdown: to Dirk for avoiding the NBA playoffs until he was 22 :oldlol:
even if we start removing years from kobe....he still only has a 2 ppg edge on dirk on noticeably worse overall efficiency. kobe is take 2 to 3 more shots per game to get those points. which most likely results in 4 to 5 more possessions used when you account for kobe's higher turnover rate and worse ft shooting.
lol at kobe being in a different league. 2 ppg better on worse efficiency....and that is if we just chop off 4 years.
catch24
10-27-2011, 04:22 PM
their overall efficiency is not identical. dirk is 4% higher on ts and has a clear edge in fg%, 3pt%, and ft%
At their peak, not careers. I was going off of Tpols list.
Efficiency =/= from the field.
and Dirk has averaged more ppg in the playoffs.
Again though - Kobe has played in more playoff games (going deeper, evidence to his 7 Finals trips). That's something you gotta take into consideration.
even if we start removing years from kobe....he still only has a 2 ppg edge on dirk on noticeably worse overall efficiency. kobe is take 2 to 3 more shots per game to get those points. which most likely results in 4 to 5 more possessions used when you account for kobe's higher turnover rate and worse ft shooting.
lol at kobe being in a different league. 2 ppg better on worse efficiency....and that is if we just chop off 4 years.
I guess this is what I was debating about. I never said that Dirk was a better scorer than Kobe. I just think it's funny that people think that 2 points on 3 more shots makes it so we can't even debate about it. This is an NBA forum. That's kinda the point.
(And by debate, I mean discuss it like adults like most of us are doing... not just throw out "Dork Nowtizki can't carry his jock strapz! LOL :roll: :roll: :roll: " )
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:24 PM
lol just last year, u were shitting Dirk on every thread like u wasn't a Mavs fan.
Dude is a damn JOKE.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:25 PM
At their peak, not careers. I was going off of Tpols list.
Efficiency =/= from the field.
Again though - Kobe has played in more playoff games (going deeper, evidence to his 7 Finals trips). That's something you gotta take into consideration.
kobe has also played with far better teams. can't ignore that. i can't imagine what dirk's efficiency would have looked like playing on loaded teams throughout his career. dirk might have shot 55% next to shaq. goes both ways.
and again, dirk is more efficient from the field. he beats kobe in fg% and efg%....marginally of course....but no less marginal than kobe scoring 2 more ppg in those 10 prime years on 2 to 3 more shots per game.
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 04:26 PM
even if we start removing years from kobe....he still only has a 2 ppg edge on dirk on noticeably worse overall efficiency. kobe is take 2 to 3 more shots per game to get those points. which most likely results in 4 to 5 more possessions used when you account for kobe's higher turnover rate and worse ft shooting.
lol at kobe being in a different league. 2 ppg better on worse efficiency....and that is if we just chop off 4 years.
Not all "years" are created equal. Kobe's 3 best years includes 60 games 2 rings and a trip to the Finals. Dirk's 3 best years include 21 games and two 1st round exits. Its silly to equate the two.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:27 PM
STRAIGHT ETHER[/B]
:cheers:
Kobe has 7 different post-seasons with higher averages than Dork's best, more 40+ point games, more 30+ point games, and does better in his extended runs against better defenses.
Then he completely destroys him in the RS.
40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20
50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2
60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0
Straight ether.
Kobe is on a different level.
:oldlol:
Jacks3, can you do me a favor and keep posting the same post over and over. I didn't see it the first time. Nor did I respond do it.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:31 PM
U mad that Kobe shits all over Dork as a scorer. :pimp:
According to people in this thread (and according to last years playoffs)
Durant, Dirk, Rose, Howard (lol), Melo, Wade, Westbrook and LeBron are all better scorers than Kobe.
And since Durant, Dirk, Rose, Wade, Westbrook and LeBron went further in the playoffs, the gap is even wider since they did it over more games.
Sad to see how much Kobe has fallen off.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:33 PM
Not all "years" are created equal. Kobe's 3 best years includes 60 games 2 rings and a trip to the Finals. Dirk's 3 best years include 21 games and two 1st round exits. Its silly to equate the two.
We took Kobe's 10 best years in the playoffs vs Dirk's 10 best.
And you get roughly Kobe scoring 2 more ppg on worse overall efficiency.
Dirk's offensive rating absolutely blows Kobe's out of the water as well. Dirk has 6 playoff runs over 119. Kobe has 0. Kobe's highest is 117. Dirk's highest is 130 (124 on an extended run)......
Another offensive measure that favors Dirk....shocking.
Dirk also destroys kobe in offensive win shares overall and peak. Dirk's peak was 3.8 in 06 in 23 games. Kobes was 3.3 in 09 in 23 games.
Another offensive measure that favors Dirk....shocking.
We took Kobe's 10 best years in the playoffs vs Dirk's 10 best.
And you get roughly Kobe scoring 2 more ppg on worse overall efficiency.
Dirk's offensive rating absolutely blows Kobe's out of the water as well. Dirk has 6 playoff runs over 119. Kobe has 0. Kobe's highest is 117. Dirk's highest is 130 (124 on an extended run)......
Another offensive measure that favors Dirk....shocking.
But..But...... Kobe scored 40 points on a million shots against a bad team in a (probably) losing effort in the regular season! He's way better at getting points!
catch24
10-27-2011, 04:36 PM
kobe has also played with far better teams. can't ignore that. i can't imagine what dirk's efficiency would have looked like playing on loaded teams throughout his career. dirk might have shot 55% next to shaq. goes both ways.
lol
Dirk has played with several contenders..and multiple all-stars too. Finley, Nash? That's not a prime Shaq, but those guys were pretty fukkin solid. 7 Finals trips, multiple semi and conference finals, 4,000+ more minutes on his belt...of course Kobe has a lower PPG output. Dirk's numbers will likely go down before he retires as well.
and again, dirk is more efficient from the field. he beats kobe in fg% and efg%....marginally of course....
From the field, as you said, it was marginal, but Kobe's PPG was sometimes 3-4+ pts higher. Kobe was the better volume scorer at his peak.
imo, Dirk is better now though.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:36 PM
But..But...... Kobe scored 40 points on a million shots against a bad team in a (probably) losing effort in the regular season! He's way better at getting points!
I'm not talking about the regular season...i'm talking about the playoffs...but the point still stands.
If Kobe has more 40 point playoff games and the ppg averages are so close...that means he has more awful games. Its the law of averages. Clearly a concept lost on the stans here.
We've already chopped 4 years off Kobe's career for no good reason other than he just wasn't very good yet. Funny, I wonder if they will also negate all the points Kobe scored those years as Kobe climbs up the all time points list? I doubt it.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:37 PM
Sad to see how much Kobe has fallen off.
Sad to see how much Kobe shits all over Dirk, yes.
40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20
50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2
60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0
Damn Dork. It's not even close. :oldlol:
Oh. Some new statistics. Thanks Jacks3!
Just curious.. how many shots did Kobe take to get those? Did the Lakers win those games?
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:38 PM
He's way better at getting points!
True.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:39 PM
lol
Dirk has played with several contenders..and multiple all-stars too. Finley, Nash? That's not a prime Shaq, but those guys were pretty fukkin solid. 7 Finals trips, multiple semi and conference finals, 4,000+ more minutes on his belt...of course Kobe has a lower PPG output. Dirk's numbers will likely go down before he retires as well.
From the field, as you said, it was marginal, but Kobe's PPG was sometimes 3-4+ pts higher. Kobe was the better volume scorer at his peak.
imo, Dirk is better now though.
LOL....Dirk's teams have not approached Kobe's in terms of strength. Sorry....Kobe has had the clear cut edge in team strength and coaching. Not even remotely debatable. Sad that anyone could think otherwise.
I never said Dirk played with scrubs. I said he didn't play on teams as good as the Lakers....just a fact.
You do know that Kobe and Dirk are pretty much the same age...right?
And we've been over this. Kobe's 10 best years.....he's only 2ppg ahead of Dirk. Thats it. On worse efficiency overall. So basically....all that superior scoring you speak of netted kobe 2 more points per game while he took 2 to 3 more shots to get there. which translates to 4 or 5 more possessions used.
sorry, in no way is kobe in a different league than dirk as a playoff scorer by any standard or measure.
This message is hidden because Jacks3 is on your ignore list.
Pretty sad if that "game" was fun for him. I can only imagine what he's like IRL.
Obviously Kobe has shown that he can be a really incredible scorer. He has also shown that he sometimes shoots way too many shots to get those points. No one considers Jerry Stackhouse to be an elite scorer, even though he showed he can score a ton of points when he has the go-ahead to shoot all day. All I'm saying is that there is more to look at than raw PPG.
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 04:41 PM
We took Kobe's 10 best years in the playoffs vs Dirk's 10 best.
And you get roughly Kobe scoring 2 more ppg on worse overall efficiency.
Dirk's offensive rating absolutely blows Kobe's out of the water as well. Dirk has 6 playoff runs over 119. Kobe has 0. Kobe's highest is 117. Dirk's highest is 130 (124 on an extended run)......
Another offensive measure that favors Dirk....shocking.
Your comparison is already a failure within the 1st sentence. You already know that. Kobe's top ten playoff seasons are going to include 7 trips to the Finals and the majority of them during the defensive era of basketball. How insane of a player would Kobe have to be to be more efficient than Dirk through 4 playoff series during that era compared to Dirk in one series against the 07 Warriors? You think that's a meaningful comparison?
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:43 PM
Peak:
Kobe--35.4 PPG/56% TS
Dork--26.6 PPG/59% TS
2nd-best Peak
Kobe--32 PPG/58% TS
Dork-- 26 PPG/58% TS
30+ PPG seasons
Kobe--3
Dork--0
28+ PPG seasons
Kobe--6
Dork--0
40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20 (:oldlol: )
50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2 (:oldlol: )
60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0 :oldlol:
Damn. Dork getting shitted on. :roll:
Best part about this is that Kobe's numbers are going to go down quicker than Dirk's, so even with fans inexplicably forgetting Kobe's first 4 years, Kobe's averages will soon be lower than Dirk's anyway. "hey let's throw out Kobe's old years too, that's not fair that Dirk's game is able to stay consistant for so long!!!"
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:45 PM
]
Obviously Kobe has shown that he can be a really incredible scorer. He has also shown that he sometimes shoots way too many shots to get those points. No one considers Jerry Stackhouse to be an elite scorer, even though he showed he can score a ton of points when he has the go-ahead to shoot all day. All I'm saying is that there is more to look at than raw PPG.
You're a fukking moron comparing Kobe to Stackhouse. Kobe's volume destroys Dork's and you're telling that Dork is comparable because he has a 2-3% TS edge. LMAO @ the weak ass excuses.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:46 PM
Just curious.. how many shots did Kobe take to get those? Did the Lakers win those games?
57-58% TS average over his 40+,50+ point games.
Lakers have a 70+% winning percentage.
Ether. :oldlol:
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:47 PM
Your comparison is already a failure within the 1st sentence. You already know that. Kobe's top ten playoff seasons are going to include 7 trips to the Finals and the majority of them during the defensive era of basketball. How insane of a player would Kobe have to be to be more efficient than Dirk through 4 playoff series during that era compared to Dirk in one series against the 07 Warriors? You think that's a meaningful comparison?
What?
I think playing with a top 8 player of all time in Shaq to take the pressure off more than makes up for the difference in defense quality.
So lets get this straight:
1. You want me to remove 4 years of Kobe's career (that equates to 29% by the way)
2. You want me to ignore that Kobe played on the most stacked teams by far of this era.
3. You want me to ignore that Dirk had to carry his teams more than Kobe did and played with worse teammates and far worse coaching.
4. You want me to heavily factor in everything that favors Kobe.
Sound about right?
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:47 PM
And the best part is... Kobe will always be the better player with the better career. It's not even close. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:48 PM
Best part about this is that Kobe's numbers are going to go down quicker than Dirk's, so even with fans inexplicably forgetting Kobe's first 4 years, Kobe's averages will soon be lower than Dirk's anyway. "hey let's throw out Kobe's old years too, that's not fair that Dirk's game is able to stay consistant for so long!!!"
LOL
Kobe's numbers are already lower
Dirk beats him in playoff ppg and beats him in every scoring stat there is. fg%, 3pt%, ft%, ts%, offensive rating (by a huge margin), offensive win shares....
Dirk beats him everything. Already.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:49 PM
And the best part is... Kobe will always be the better player with the better career. It's not even close. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
And the white flag has been waived. Now its about the better player. Good work Kobe stans. You've lost another battle.
We took Kobe's 10 best years in the playoffs vs Dirk's 10 best.
And you get roughly Kobe scoring 2 more ppg on worse overall efficiency.
Dirk's offensive rating absolutely blows Kobe's out of the water as well. Dirk has 6 playoff runs over 119. Kobe has 0. Kobe's highest is 117. Dirk's highest is 130 (124 on an extended run)......
Another offensive measure that favors Dirk....shocking.
Dirk also destroys kobe in offensive win shares overall and peak. Dirk's peak was 3.8 in 06 in 23 games. Kobes was 3.3 in 09 in 23 games.
Another offensive measure that favors Dirk....shocking.
According to offensive rating Steve Kerr is the GOAT, so I wouldn't use that for your argument
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 04:53 PM
Peak:
Kobe--35.4 PPG/56% TS
Dork--26.6 PPG/59% TS
2nd-best Peak
Kobe--32 PPG/58% TS
Dork-- 26 PPG/58% TS
30+ PPG seasons
Kobe--3
Dork--0
28+ PPG seasons
Kobe--6
Dork--0
40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20 (:oldlol: )
50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2 (:oldlol: )
60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0 :oldlol:
Damn. Dork getting shitted on. :roll:
Yeah, that's really losing the battle. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:54 PM
According to offensive rating Steve Kerr is the GOAT, so I wouldn't use that for your argument
context please. context.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 04:55 PM
average opponent defensive rating:
kobe 102.6
dirk 103.9
yes...lets get all worked up over that marginal difference and completely ignore how much better kobe's teams were.
context please. context.
**** context. That alone is enough for me write off Offensive rating as bullshit.
catch24
10-27-2011, 04:58 PM
LOL....Dirk's teams have not approached Kobe's in terms of strength. Sorry....Kobe has had the clear cut edge in team strength and coaching. Not even remotely debatable. Sad that anyone could think otherwise.
I never said they did. Kobe has had better teams, without question. The point I was trying to make was that Dirk also had quality help..and there were more than a few years where his teams were considered contenders.
You do know that Kobe and Dirk are pretty much the same age...right?
That doesn't mean much. Kobe has 4,000+ more minutes logged in. Huge difference, dude.
And we've been over this. Kobe's 10 best years.....he's only 2ppg ahead of Dirk. Thats it. On worse efficiency overall. So basically....all that superior scoring you speak of netted kobe 2 more points per game while he took 2 to 3 more shots to get there.
On marginally worse efficiency though. 2+ppg is a sizable difference. Whether Kobe used more possessions or shot a couple more field goal attempts doesn't really matter to me. If Dirk shot 2-3+ more shots could he have equaled Kobe's scoring average? Sure. But he also could have shot worse than Kobe. We really don't know.
What I do know, is that I'd take Kobe from 2006-2008 over any version of Dirk because of his scoring versatility (shoot, create his own shot and penetrate because of his superior athleticism). I'm sure you'd probably take Dirk, which is standard.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 05:00 PM
Peak:
Kobe--35.4 PPG/56% TS
Dork--26.6 PPG/59% TS
2nd-best Peak
Kobe--32 PPG/58% TS
Dork-- 26 PPG/58% TS
30+ PPG seasons
Kobe--3
Dork--0
28+ PPG seasons
Kobe--6
Dork--0
40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20 (:oldlol: )
50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2 (:oldlol: )
60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0 :oldlol:
Career High--
Kobe--81
Dork--50
Damn. Dork getting shitted on. :roll:
Post-season:
29 PPG+--
Kobe--6
Dork--0
30+ PPG+
Kobe--4
Dork--0
30+ point games-
Kobe--80
Dork--44 (:oldlol: )
:roll: :roll: :roll:
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 05:04 PM
I never said they did. Kobe has had better teams, without question. The point I was trying to make was that Dirk also had quality help..and there were more than a few years where his teams were considered contenders.
That doesn't mean much. Kobe has 4,000+ more minutes logged in. Huge difference, dude.
On marginally worse efficiency though. 2+ppg is a sizable difference. Whether Kobe used more possessions or shot a couple more field goal attempts doesn't really matter to me. If Dirk shot 2-3+ more shots could he have equaled Kobe's scoring average? Sure. But he also could have shot worse than Kobe. We really don't know.
What I do know, is that I'd take Kobe from 2006-2008 over any version of Dirk because of his scoring versatility (shoot, create his own shot and penetrate because of his superior athleticism). I'm sure you'd probably take Dirk, which is standard.
You can't just ask to throw out 4 years of a players career (29% of his playoff career)...and then turn around and talk about mileage. What about Dirk playing overseas when he was younger? Does that not mean anything. Or the fact that Dirk has missed far less games than Kobe throughout this career. Or that Dirk played 20 minutes a game his first year while kobe played 16? Or that Dirk played 36 minutes his 2nd year while kobe played 26? How about the fact that Dirk has started 968 games while Kobe has only started 955?
I guess it only matters for Kobe though...right? We should ignore Dirk starting pro ball in 1994 in Germany.....
And how is 2 ppg a true gap while the other efficiency is marginal? Makes absolutely no sense. Kobe scored those 2 points on at minimum 3 extra used offensive possessions per game. That makes it marginal. Its dirk scoring at 33% to match Kobe. LOL....easy. And its actually probably more possessions used giving Dirk's far superior ft shooting.
catch24
10-27-2011, 05:06 PM
You can't just ask to throw out 4 years of a players career (29% of his playoff career)...and then turn around and talk about mileage.
When did I throw out Kobe's first 4 years?
:confusedshrug:
What about Dirk playing overseas when he was younger? Does that not mean anything.
Overseas for a season =/= an 82 game NBA season now?
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 05:09 PM
When did I throw out Kobe's first 4 years?
:confusedshrug:
Overseas for a season =/= an 82 game NBA season now?
you said you only wanted to compare primes. that is throwing out a large portion of kobe's playoff play. at least 29%.
never said overseas was the exact same, but you have to understand that Dirk is the same age and had mileage on his legs early on as well. and Dirk has started more games and dirk has missed less games. i'm not sure mileage works all the well here. i mean kobe played a small role his first year. something like 15 minutes a game and i don't think he started more than a handful of games. he also played (as usual) on a loaded roster. the lakers won 56 games that year. kobe missed 11 games in year 1. kobe then only started 1 game his 2nd year. the lakers won 61 games. of course mileage matters, but lets not ignore that kobe had it pretty damn easy those first few years.
and even then, we are already throwing out kobe's worst 4 years in the playoffs....i'm not sure how much more you can ask for in a comparison.
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 05:14 PM
What?
I think playing with a top 8 player of all time in Shaq to take the pressure off more than makes up for the difference in defense quality.
So lets get this straight:
1. You want me to remove 4 years of Kobe's career (that equates to 29% by the way)
2. You want me to ignore that Kobe played on the most stacked teams by far of this era.
3. You want me to ignore that Dirk had to carry his teams more than Kobe did and played with worse teammates and far worse coaching.
4. You want me to heavily factor in everything that favors Kobe.
Sound about right?
Your assumption isn't based on anything. Kobe was a more efficient player without Shaq than with him.
1. I want to you to use your brain if you are seriously looking at career PER numbers. Use common sense. If we assume both players are equal one player accumulating data at 18 is going to fare worse than a player who starts collecting data at 22.
2. I want you to quantify how playing with one all star, no 6th men award winners, no 1st team all defensive team winners = the most stacked team of the era.
3. I want you to consider a world where Dirk doesn't choke early on his career. Consider the perception of his teammates and his coaches if the Mavs won 5 out 7 rings in the last decade. Your common mistake is equating a result of Dirk's repeated failures as a positive. The Mavs were not favored so blah blah blah. They were the underdog so blah blah blah... The coaching was bad so blah blah blah. No Dirk's failures led to them being labeled as chokers which in term left them unimpressive to the betting public and his multiple award winning coaches had to be the scapegoat.
4. NBA history favors Kobe. :confusedshrug: What do you want me to tell you? Kobe is only behind Kareem and Jordan for the most playoff points scored of all time. Dirk can schedule 10 more one series flameouts against the Warriors (with impressive PER numbers of course :oldlol: ) and it still won't change that.
catch24
10-27-2011, 05:17 PM
you said you only wanted to compare primes. that is throwing out a large portion of kobe's playoff play. at least 29%.
Nope, I was originally comparing their peaks. That's it. What I said was Kobe, at his peak..was the better scorer.
never said overseas was the exact same, but you have to understand that Dirk is the same age and had mileage on his legs early on as well. and Dirk has started more games and dirk has missed less games. i'm not sure mileage works all the well here.
I just don't think think its the same. You gotta consider the physicality of the NBA (more so during Kobe's early years..prior to the rules changes), where the best competiton is at. What makes Kobe's scoring even more impressive is the fact he did it while being his teams #1 playmaker and defender.
Look at the numbers Jacks3 posted. Only Wilt Chamberlain and Michael Jordan rival those type of scoring binges.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 05:18 PM
KG. I mean, he's a top 5 PF. I have him ranked 3rd on my list. His defense, all around game, impact and productiveness are the reason why he gets ranked so high.
When he got decent team mates in Minny, he took them pretty deep into the playoffs and won the MVP. Seriously, it's KG by far. And this is coming from a big Dirk fan.
This. Dork has become massively overrated. Dude is nothing more than a one-dimensional chucker. Crappy rebounder (LMAO @ dude only grabbing 8 RPG at PF last year), shitty defender, and a mediocre passer/play-maker.
He's never been the best player in the league or even close.
Hell, he only has a couple years where he's even top 5.
Pretty much every year there are about 4-6 better players than him. :oldlol:
And now I hear he's top 20 ever and better than clearly superior players like Barkley,Malone, and KG. What a joke. :oldlol:
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 05:19 PM
Your assumption isn't based on anything. Kobe was a more efficient player without Shaq than with him.
1. I want to you to use your brain if you are seriously looking at career PER numbers. Use common sense. If we assume both players are equal one player accumulating data at 18 is going to fare worse than a player who starts collecting data at 22.
2. I want you to quantify how playing with one all star, no 6th men award winners, no 1st team all defensive team winners = the most stacked team of the era.
3. I want you to consider a world where Dirk doesn't choke early on his career. Consider the perception of his teammates and his coaches if the Mavs won 5 out 7 rings in the last decade. Your common mistake is equating a result of Dirk's repeated failures as a positive. The Mavs were not favored so blah blah blah. They were the underdog so blah blah blah... The coaching was bad so blah blah blah. No Dirk's failures led to them being labeled as chokers which in term left them unimpressive to the betting public and his multiple award winning coaches had to be the scapegoat.
4. NBA history favors Kobe. :confusedshrug: What do you want me to tell you? Kobe is only behind Kareem and Jordan for the most playoff points scored of all time. Dirk can schedule 10 more one series flameouts against the Warriors (with impressive PER numbers of course :oldlol: ) and it still won't change that.
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 05:22 PM
I like how the Mavs clearly relied on Dirk more but Kobe's usage percentage during the Shaq threepeat in the playoffs is higher than Dirk's CAREER usage percentage in the playoffs.
:oldlol:
chazzy
10-27-2011, 05:23 PM
I have KG higher, not too much of a gap though.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 05:23 PM
Your assumption isn't based on anything. Kobe was a more efficient player without Shaq than with him.
1. I want to you to use your brain if you are seriously looking at career PER numbers. Use common sense. If we assume both players are equal one player accumulating data at 18 is going to fare worse than a player who starts collecting data at 22.
2. I want you to quantify how playing with one all star, no 6th men award winners, no 1st team all defensive team winners = the most stacked team of the era.
3. I want you to consider a world where Dirk doesn't choke early on his career. Consider the perception of his teammates and his coaches if the Mavs won 5 out 7 rings in the last decade. Your common mistake is equating a result of Dirk's repeated failures as a positive. The Mavs were not favored so blah blah blah. They were the underdog so blah blah blah... The coaching was bad so blah blah blah. No Dirk's failures led to them being labeled as chokers which in term left them unimpressive to the betting public and his multiple award winning coaches had to be the scapegoat.
4. NBA history favors Kobe. :confusedshrug: What do you want me to tell you? Kobe is only behind Kareem and Jordan for the most playoff points scored of all time. Dirk can schedule 10 more one series flameouts against the Warriors (with impressive PER numbers of course :oldlol: ) and it still won't change that.
You are completely changing the argument....which is standard.
Has Kobe not had repeated failures in the playoffs? We've been over them all. And they can be directly related to his play. Dirk? Not so much. You have the Warriors series....but really that is the only true failure for Dirk's career.
Kobe has plenty. You call him a 5 time champion and ignore circumstances...again...standard.
This is about scoring in the playoffs. That is what i've been talking about. I don't see any scoring/offensive measures that lead to the conclusion that Kobe is in a different league than Dirk as a scorer.
Dirk beats him across the board in everything if you compare their entire playoff careers. We don't do that though because kobe deserves special treatment....again..standard.
So what do we find when we go 10 best vs 10 best? That while Kobe scores 2 more ppg, he needed 2 to 3 more shots per game to get that. He needed 3 to 4 more possessions when you factor in his higher turnover rate and much worse ft shooting. So Dirk scores 2 less ppg while beating Kobe solidly in overall efficiency and all offensive ratings such as otrg and offensive win shares. Dirk also beats Kobe all time in playoff PER....not that big of a deal, but yet another measure that favors dirk.
So I'm really not sure what ring count has to do with this...or the fact that you are still so lost that you think dirk was ever a choker. Or the fact that you ignore Kobe's spotty at best history in the playoffs of laying down in elimination games and coming up extremely small in the finals for a player of his stature. Putting forth one of the worst finals performances by a star player ever.
But again, you have changed the argument to a ring count...as usual...because you lost.
Nothing supports Kobe being a better playoffs scorer than Dirk....even when you chop off 29% of Kobe's playoff career....LOL
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 05:36 PM
You are completely changing the argument....which is standard.
Has Kobe not had repeated failures in the playoffs? We've been over them all. And they can be directly related to his play. Dirk? Not so much. You have the Warriors series....but really that is the only true failure for Dirk's career.
Kobe has plenty. You call him a 5 time champion and ignore circumstances...again...standard.
This is about scoring in the playoffs. That is what i've been talking about. I don't see any scoring/offensive measures that lead to the conclusion that Kobe is in a different league than Dirk as a scorer.
Dirk beats him across the board in everything if you compare their entire playoff careers. We don't do that though because kobe deserves special treatment....again..standard.
So what do we find when we go 10 best vs 10 best? That while Kobe scores 2 more ppg, he needed 2 to 3 more shots per game to get that. He needed 3 to 4 more possessions when you factor in his higher turnover rate and much worse ft shooting. So Dirk scores 2 less ppg while beating Kobe solidly in overall efficiency and all offensive ratings such as otrg and offensive win shares. Dirk also beats Kobe all time in playoff PER....not that big of a deal, but yet another measure that favors dirk.
So I'm really not sure what ring count has to do with this...or the fact that you are still so lost that you think dirk was ever a choker. Or the fact that you ignore Kobe's spotty at best history in the playoffs of laying down in elimination games and coming up extremely small in the finals for a player of his stature. Putting forth one of the worst finals performances by a star player ever.
But again, you have changed the argument to a ring count...as usual...because you lost.
Nothing supports Kobe being a better playoffs scorer than Dirk....even when you chop off 29% of Kobe's playoff career....LOL
Scorer has always meant scoring points and has never meant high percentages . :confusedshrug: Your beef is with the common vernacular used in the sport.
Who is considered the greatest scorer in playoff history?
Michael Jordan, Raja Bell or Dwight Howard?
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 05:44 PM
Scorer has always meant scoring points and has never meant high percentages . :confusedshrug: Your beef is with the common vernacular used in the sport.
Who is considered the greatest scorer in playoff history?
Michael Jordan, Raja Bell or Dwight Howard?
Its actually both. Its about how many points your score and at what efficiency you score them. Your problem is that you are just too stubborn to admit both matter.
And if they don't? Fine.....
Dirk 25.9 ppg in the playoffs
Kobe 25.4 ppg in the playoffs
You just said...."its about scoring points"
Well, Dirk scores more points per game in the playoffs. Just a fact. So you readily admit that Dirk is the better playoff scorer then...right?
But you won't, there will be some bs about chopping years off Kobe's career or how efficiency doesn't matter...or shaq stole shots...even though kobe was still getting up more shots than dirk ever was while he played with shaq.
kobe is the only player that needs to 30% of his career chopped off to win an argument. and even if we chop it off. he's still not any better than dirk. thats the sad thing.
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 05:51 PM
Its actually both. Its about how many points your score and at what efficiency you score them. Your problem is that you are just too stubborn to admit both matter.
And if they don't? Fine.....
Dirk 25.9 ppg in the playoffs
Kobe 25.4 ppg in the playoffs
You just said...."its about scoring points"
Well, Dirk scores more points per game in the playoffs. Just a fact. So you readily admit that Dirk is the better playoff scorer then...right?
But you won't, there will be some bs about chopping years off Kobe's career or how efficiency doesn't matter...or shaq stole shots...even though kobe was still getting up more shots than dirk ever was while he played with shaq.
kobe is the only player that needs to 30% of his career chopped off to win an argument. and even if we chop it off. he's still not any better than dirk. thats the sad thing.
From 18-20
Dirk's playoff average 0.0 ppg over 0 games
Kobe's playoff average 8.5 ppg over 20 games
From 20-22
Dirk's playoff average 0.0 ppg over 0 games
Kobe's playoff average 20.5 ppg over 30 games
From 22-32
Dirk's playoff average = 25.9 ppg over 124 games
Kobe's playoff average= 28.6 ppg over 158 games
:bowdown: to the amazing Dirk :oldlol:
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 05:59 PM
From 18-20
Dirk's playoff average 0.0 ppg over 0 games
Kobe's playoff average 8.5 ppg over 20 games
From 20-22
Dirk's playoff average 0.0 ppg over 0 games
Kobe's playoff average 20.5 ppg over 30 games
From 22-32
Dirk's playoff average = 25.9 ppg over 124 games
Kobe's playoff average= 28.6 ppg over 158 games
:bowdown: to the amazing Dirk :oldlol:
i get 28.4 ppg over that time. removing 4 years for kobe and 0 for dirk.
i think its only fair to at least remove one year for dirk. which brings his total just over 26 ppg.
and then of course you ignore the efficiency measures. in that time, kobe has had one playoff run over 57.7% TS....Dirk averaged right at 58.5% TS over his 10 years. Dirk had 7 playoff runs over over Kobe's highest efficiency mark.
So again, Kobe is scoring slightly over 2 ppg more after chopping off 30% of his playoff career. And he loses out to dirk in every efficiency category in addition to offensive rating and offensive win shares.
lol...the amazing kobe.
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 06:05 PM
i get 28.4 ppg over that time. removing 4 years for kobe and 0 for dirk.
i think its only fair to at least remove one year for dirk. which brings his total just over 26 ppg.
and then of course you ignore the efficiency measures. in that time, kobe has had one playoff run over 57.7% TS....Dirk averaged right at 58.5% TS over his 10 years. Dirk had 7 playoff runs over over Kobe's highest efficiency mark.
So again, Kobe is scoring slightly over 2 ppg more after chopping off 30% of his playoff career. And he loses out to dirk in every efficiency category in addition to offensive rating and offensive win shares.
lol...the amazing kobe.
The difference is your just playing with numbers because you are butthurt at the results. I'm trying to make a reasonable conclusion from them. If its above your comprehension why a teenage NBAer playing 17 mins a game will drag down career per game numbers and would need to be accounted for then I genuinely feel sorry for you.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 06:11 PM
The difference is your just playing with numbers because you are butthurt at the results. I'm trying to make a reasonable conclusion from them. If its above your comprehension why a teenage NBAer playing 17 mins a game will drag down career per game numbers and would need to be accounted for then I genuinely feel sorry for you.
what are you talking about? I removed Kobe's first four years already.
the conclusion is simple. kobe scores slightly over 2ppg more on worse overall efficiency. that is the conclusion.
it takes kobe anywhere from 3 to 4 more possessions to score those extra points.
every measure favors dirk outside of those 2 ppg over the 10 year period you want to compare.
so basically you think that efficiency should not be counted at all in scoring. if that is your stance...fine. just know what you are saying.....
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 06:16 PM
Peak:
Kobe--35.4 PPG/56% TS
Dork--26.6 PPG/59% TS
2nd-best Peak
Kobe--32 PPG/58% TS
Dork-- 26 PPG/58% TS
30+ PPG seasons
Kobe--3
Dork--0
28+ PPG seasons
Kobe--6
Dork--0
40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20
50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2
60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0
Career High--
Kobe--81
Dork--50
Damn. Dork getting shitted on.
Post-season:
29 PPG+--
Kobe--6
Dork--0
30+ PPG+
Kobe--4
Dork--0
30+ point games-
Kobe--80
Dork--44
lol. Kobe is easily better. Top 5 scorer ever. :bowdown:
Dork ain't even top 10. :oldlol:
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 06:27 PM
what are you talking about? I removed Kobe's first four years already.
the conclusion is simple. kobe scores slightly over 2ppg more on worse overall efficiency. that is the conclusion.
it takes kobe anywhere from 3 to 4 more possessions to score those extra points.
every measure favors dirk outside of those 2 ppg over the 10 year period you want to compare.
so basically you think that efficiency should not be counted at all in scoring. if that is your stance...fine. just know what you are saying.....
That's not my stance. That's the stance of NBA history. I love these stat guys with their heads in the sand. Google Iverson and "greatest scorer" some time to welcome yourself back to Earth.
creepingdeath
10-27-2011, 06:30 PM
Yeah, Kobe averaging not even 24 against an old and hobbling JKidd was almost as impressive as his negative assists-to-turnovers ratio.
https://i.minus.com/iQ6ou02shkXUZ.gif
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 06:33 PM
That's not my stance. That's the stance of NBA history. I love these stat guys with their heads in the sand. Google Iverson and "greatest scorer" some time to welcome yourself back to Earth.
You are confusing "greatest" with "explosive"
Kobe is definitely a more "explosive" scorer than Dirk in the playoffs. He's just not any better overall. its the law of averages. his averages are there for a reason. you can't just focus on the 35 point games and ignore all the other games that have driven his average down. sorry.
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 06:38 PM
You are confusing "greatest" with "explosive"
Kobe is definitely a more "explosive" scorer than Dirk in the playoffs. He's just not any better overall. its the law of averages. his averages are there for a reason. you can't just focus on the 35 point games and ignore all the other games that have driven his average down. sorry.
I already told you the reason. He started getting playoff stats in his teens. He was playing 17 mins a game for two years. Its not rocket science. Dirk only started collecting playoff stats when he was 22. Among the top 6 ppg seasons in the playoffs among the two Kobe has not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5 but all 6 of them.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 06:47 PM
Among the top 6 ppg seasons in the playoffs among the two Kobe has not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5 but all 6 of them.
:oldlol:
More ether. Just shitting all over that moron.
:roll:
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 07:01 PM
I already told you the reason. He started getting playoff stats in his teens. He was playing 17 mins a game for two years. Its not rocket science. Dirk only started collecting playoff stats when he was 22. Among the top 6 ppg seasons in the playoffs among the two Kobe has not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5 but all 6 of them.
Kobe's teen years aren't even being counted. What are you talking about? We chopped off 30% of Kobe's playoff career to appease you and your fellow stans.
And the results were simple. Kobe edges Dirk on roughly 2 ppg over that 10 year period. Kobe needed somewhere around 3 to 4 more possessions to score those extra 2 points. Dirk beats kobe in every efficiency category and offensive rating and offensive win shares.
So I don't see how over that period (that you wanted to use) that you can claim Kobe is on another level as a scorer. Again, averages are averages for a reason. And its very easy to see why Kobe averaged a little over 2 more points per game during that time. He took more shots and used up more possessions.
Sorry. Scoring 2 more ppg than another player on worse efficiency across the board over a decade does not make one player on another level...that is absurd. Especially in this case where both players are great at the end of games and have been the main option or a main option their entire careers. Absolutely an apples to apples comparison. Same conference. Same era.
And the stats are nearly identical.
King24
10-27-2011, 07:12 PM
Kobe is the better scorer in the PS and RS season. It's not a big gap. I don't agree with the guy who said he's in "another universe" at all because Dirk is a top 10 scorer ever, but it's pretty clear imo that Bryant is better, even if it is by a small degree.
I think that's fair.
/thread
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 07:20 PM
So lets see how this plays:
Iverson vs Kobe...
Who is the better playoff scorer? How about T-Mac vs Kobe?
creepingdeath
10-27-2011, 07:22 PM
Kobe is the better scorer in the PS and RS season. It's not a big gap. I don't agree with the guy who said he's in "another universe" at all because Dirk is a top 10 scorer ever, but it's pretty clear imo that Bryant is better, even if it is by a small degree.
I think that's fair.
/thread
Nice post. Repped on refill.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 07:27 PM
Kobe is easily a better scorer than A.I or T-Mac. Beats them in TS% and a pretty clear edge in volume, especially at his peak. In fact, his 05-07 stretch destroys anything those two have ever done, just like it destroys anything Dork has ever done. :oldlol:
creepingdeath
10-27-2011, 07:46 PM
Kobe is easily a better scorer than A.I or T-Mac. Beats them in TS% and a pretty clear edge in volume, especially at his peak. In fact, his 05-07 stretch destroys anything those two have ever done, just like it destroys anything Dork has ever done. :oldlol:
http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee458/sgtpepper22/th_Lookingup.gif
Ahh.. the fallacy of a Kobe ******ger. A couple of pages ago, being the better scorer was defined as having a higher ppg. Well, logic plus kobesexual does not compute.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 07:49 PM
Kobe is easily a better scorer than A.I or T-Mac. Beats them in TS% and a pretty clear edge in volume, especially at his peak. In fact, his 05-07 stretch destroys anything those two have ever done, just like it destroys anything Dork has ever done. :oldlol:
Iverson averages more ppg than Kobe did in the playoffs by a pretty wide margin....even if you erase Kobe's first 4 years.
why is ts% important now? you said it didn't matter when Dirk trumps Kobe by a pretty big margin of 4%.
makes absolutely no sense.
we all know you'd rather have kobe scoring the ball than iverson because of efficiency. kobe's better efficiency trumps iverson's 2 or so more ppg in the playoffs prime vs prime. just not sure why that has to be ignored when other players are more efficient than kobe.
Yao Ming's Foot
10-27-2011, 08:43 PM
Not every Kobe "fan" is the same person. :facepalm
Iverson top 5 =
32.9
31.7
31.2
30.0
28.5
Kobe top 5=
32.8
32.1
30.2
30.1
29.4
:confusedshrug: looks pretty close to me.
If you take Kobe's PPM average and equate it to Iverson's avg minutes you get Iverson 29.7 Kobe 29.1 . Take the same age range as Iverson's numbers 23-32 and Id bet Kobe beats him on a per minute basis.
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 08:47 PM
why is ts% important now? you said it didn't matter when Dirk trumps Kobe by a pretty big margin of 4%.
.
:oldlol:
Kobe has A.I equaled in terms of volume and a huge edge in TS%. He does it over longer runs,too. Dirk doesn't have as big a gap in terms of TS% over prime Kobe and is easily beat in terms of volume. Not to mention Kobe has played more games against better defenses.
Just face it. Kobe>Dirk as a scorer. Accept the truth. :facepalm
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 08:50 PM
http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee458/sgtpepper22/th_Lookingup.gif
Ahh.. the fallacy of a Kobe ******ger. A couple of pages ago, being the better scorer was defined as having a higher ppg. Well, logic plus kobesexual does not compute.
Except Kobe has better/equal PPG numbers over a much larger sample size and a clear edge in TS%.Dirk's volume isn't really close to Bryant's and the TS% gap isn't as large prime-vs-prime. lol @ this Kobe-hating phaggett! :oldlol:
BlackJoker23
10-27-2011, 09:28 PM
Kobe is the better scorer in the PS and RS season. It's not a big gap. I don't agree with the guy who said he's in "another universe" at all because Dirk is a top 10 scorer ever, but it's pretty clear imo that Bryant is better, even if it is by a small degree.
I think that's fair.
/thread
jacks3 is this ur serious account bro?
Fatal9
10-27-2011, 09:32 PM
KG on Dirk's teams from '00-'08? How many championships we talking here...
BlackJoker23
10-27-2011, 09:35 PM
KG on Dirk's teams from '00-'08? How many championships we talking here...
i dont know bro.meet me at dixie and dundas tomorrow at 3:30 n ima tell u
Mr Know It All
10-27-2011, 10:08 PM
KG on Dirk's teams from '00-'08? How many championships we talking here...
Who is gonna take every big shot for the Mavericks during those runs? Kevin Garnett? He shies away from the clutch and cannot be relied upon. Michael Finley? Pre-Suns Steve Nash? Jason Terry? Josh Howard? Please.
Kevin Garnett only has a championship because he had two of the better clutch performers in the league on his team. He wouldn't have made more than WCF with Dirk's squads, they just weren't that stacked. Garnett needs someone to take the pressure off of him in the clutch, without that he would always come up short.
Inception28
10-27-2011, 10:59 PM
So this has turned into a Kobe vs. Dirk debate? :confusedshrug:
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 11:02 PM
KG on Dirk's teams from '00-'08? How many championships we talking here...
50/50 in 03....had to get by duncan and the spurs.....i'd give a slight edge to the spurs, but is close to a coin flip
i don't think they have a chance in 04/05
very slim chance in 06...i doubt they could get by the spurs. just don't see kg doing what dirk did in that series...especially the last 4 games.
really good chance in 07.....i think they probably beat the warriors and make the wcf...but again, those spurs are waiting and that is probably close to another coin flip
no chance the rest of the years....no way could any version of KG lead a team like the 11 mavs to a title.
generous estimate? 2
most likely? 0 or 1
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 11:04 PM
3-4. KG is a much better player.
JP275
10-27-2011, 11:06 PM
So this has turned into a Kobe vs. Dirk debate? :confusedshrug:
http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/20599/this%20thread.thumbnail.jpg
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 11:07 PM
Except Kobe has better/equal PPG numbers over a much larger sample size and a clear edge in TS%.Dirk's volume isn't really close to Bryant's and the TS% gap isn't as large prime-vs-prime. lol @ this Kobe-hating phaggett! :oldlol:
kobe's volume is a laughable 2 ppg better over his 10 best years compared to dirk.
i love how its a moving target all the time. now its top 5 years vs top 5 years....LOL
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 11:08 PM
3-4. KG is a much better player.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Jacks3
10-27-2011, 11:19 PM
It's true.
KG=Top 15 player ever.
Dork=Not even top 20.
Hell, he may not even be top 25.
DMAVS41
10-27-2011, 11:36 PM
It's true.
KG=Top 15 player ever.
Dork=Not even top 20.
Hell, he may not even be top 25.
the rankings are fine with me....i just disagree.
but saying KG could have led the mavs to 4 titles from 00 to 08 is just laughable. sorry.
ihatetimthomas
10-28-2011, 12:13 AM
the rankings are fine with me....i just disagree.
but saying KG could have led the mavs to 4 titles from 00 to 08 is just laughable. sorry.
I dont think he would have gotten 4 titles, but I think if you put KG on those teams that Dirk had, I think the Mavs have a better shot at winning titles than with Dirk. That doesnt make him a better player. I just think the balance of defense KG would have brought to those teams would have been huge.
brisbaneman
10-28-2011, 12:15 AM
I dont think he would have gotten 4 titles, but I think if you put KG on those teams that Dirk had, I think the Mavs have a better shot at winning titles than with Dirk. That doesnt make him a better player. I just think the balance of defense KG would have brought to those teams would have been huge.
I agree actually. Switch both teams and they'd get better. Garnett would complement Nash much better than Dirk does. It hurts to say but it's the truth.
DMAVS41
10-28-2011, 01:31 AM
I dont think he would have gotten 4 titles, but I think if you put KG on those teams that Dirk had, I think the Mavs have a better shot at winning titles than with Dirk. That doesnt make him a better player. I just think the balance of defense KG would have brought to those teams would have been huge.
some years? absolutely. i think kg fits better in 02/03/04....but he just wouldn't have a shot at the title in 02 or 04....but he'd have a great shot in 03 (as did Dirk before he got injured in the WCF)...but again, still have to beat duncan and the spurs. not sure kg puts the mavs over the top....he has a chance though.
05/06...definitely think Dirk is a better fit. just don't think any version of kg gets by the 06 spurs. the mavs just would not have been able to score enough to beat the spurs.
07? definitely think KG fits better on this team and has a good shot to win the title.
08/09....think its about even. no chance to win a title either year for either player though...just not happening. dirk was amazing in 09 and the mavs couldn't even come close to beating the nuggets.
10...somewhat of a toss up. the mavs would have been much better defensively, but i question how they are going to consistently score. kidd and terry were awful in the spurs series....and no dirk means a lot less open space/shots for those guys.
11...dirk definitely fits better. no version of KG leads the mavs to the title. just not happening.
the above is assuming some version of prime kg for each team.
1 or 2 titles are possible.....likely? perhaps.....but 0 titles is absolutely a possibility and a likely one at that. the west was tough back then. the spurs and lakers were great throughout. the suns and kings were really strong as well. at no point would the mavs with kg be title favorites over the shaq/kobe lakers or duncan spurs. 03 and 07 are easily the two best chances. and really they are both coin flips.
EricForman
10-28-2011, 06:39 AM
i'd say, overall, KG was the better player but Dirk's career wins out and will/shuold be ranked higher on all time list.
10 straight (or is it 11 straight now?) 50+ win season is no joke. you know how many players would kill to taste the playoffs or even, say, win 48 games? and it's not like that streak is gonna end next season or the year after.
Duncan tops thast streak in modern era, no one else.
R.I.P.
10-28-2011, 10:10 AM
Between Romo, the Rangers and the Mavs Dirk has saved a whole city from being rebranded. If the Mavs had lost those finals, Dallas would have been renamed into Big C(hoke).
DMAVS41
10-28-2011, 12:14 PM
i'd say, overall, KG was the better player but Dirk's career wins out and will/shuold be ranked higher on all time list.
10 straight (or is it 11 straight now?) 50+ win season is no joke. you know how many players would kill to taste the playoffs or even, say, win 48 games? and it's not like that streak is gonna end next season or the year after.
Duncan tops thast streak in modern era, no one else.
And if you compared Dirk's help/coaching to all the other players that have led teams to 10 or more straight 50 win seasons.....Dirk easily has the worst of it.
And that shows with only 1 title in those 11 years....while every other team has 3 or more that has accomplished that.
The Mavs have seen 3 coaching changes and a ton of player turnover in that time and they haven't stopped competing/winning. The one constant has been Dirk. He deserves a lot of credit for that....and for rarely ever missing games. This last season was the first time in his career that he played less than 76 games in a season (he played 73)....
Jacks3
10-28-2011, 04:36 PM
Yeah, he'd have 2-4 titles with Dork's casts.
Dirk has just been ridiculously lucky. Nobody would consider better than KG if he didn't have the best owner in sports giving him excellent supporting casts every year.
Hell, he's never been the best in the league or even close.
Hell, mostly every year there are 4-6 players better.
For example:
06: Kobe,Wade.LBJ,Nash,Duncan,KG
07:Kobe,Wade,LBJ,Nash,Duncan,KG
08; Kobe,LBJ,LBJ,Duncan,KG
09: Kobe,Wade,LeBron,Dwight
10:Kobe,Wade,LeBron,Dwight
11:LBJ,Wade,Durant,Howard
lol @ top 20 player ever or better than KG.
:roll:
DMAVS41
10-28-2011, 04:40 PM
Yeah, he'd have 2-4 titles with Dork's casts.
Dirk has just been ridiculously lucky. Nobody would consider better than KG if he didn't have the best owner in sports giving him excellent supporting casts every year.
Hell, he's never been the best in the league or even close.
Hell, mostly every year there are 4-6 players better.
For example:
06: Kobe,Wade.LBJ,Nash,Duncan,KG
07:Kobe,Wade,LBJ,Nash,Duncan,KG
08; Kobe,LBJ,LBJ,Duncan,KG
09: Kobe,Wade,LeBron,Dwight
10:Kobe,Wade,LeBron,Dwight
11:LBJ,Wade,Durant,Howard
lol @ top 20 player ever or better than KG.
:roll:
actually sir, dirk has never had the best supporting cast in the league at any point in his career. his teams have never approached the absurdly stacked kobe teams.....
lol...coming from a kobe fan that is just awful. no player of this era has been more blessed with great teams. the dude has had a top 3 supporting cast in the league for 12 years of his career....often times the best pretty easily. 8 years with prime/peak shaq. coached by phil jackson. 100 million dollar payrolls.....lol
pathetic.
Jacks3
10-28-2011, 04:47 PM
Actually, sir, he has had consistently top 3 supporting casts and the best this past year. lol @ a Dork fan complaining about supporting casts with Cuban as the owner and consistently ridiculous payrolls.
Give KG the ridiculous talent Dork has had and he'd have 2-3 rings easily.
He's just a flat-out MUCH better player, which is why he was the best player in the league at his peak, while Dork has never been the best or even close. Hell. he only has a couple yrs where he's barely top 5. :oldlol:
I also like how you feel the need to consistently bring up Bryant.
Insecure clown.
:oldlol:
Dmavs.. I don't know why you're trying to have a real conversation with someone who thinks typing "Dork" instead of "Dirk" is funny.
DMAVS41
10-28-2011, 04:50 PM
Actually, sir, he has had consistently top 3 supporting casts and the best this past year. lol @ a Dork fan complaining about supporting casts with Cuban as the owner and consistently ridiculous payrolls.
Give KG the ridiculous talent Dork has had and he'd have 2-3 rings easily.
He's just a flat-out MUCH better player, which is why he was the best player in the league at his peak, while Dork has never been the best or even close. Hell. he only has a couple yrs where he's barely top 5. :oldlol:
I also like how you feel the need to consistently bring up Bryant.
Insecure clown.
:oldlol:
not really. have you actually watched any of the mavs teams? these are the legit chances to win:
03...made the wcf...got there with dirk having two great game 7's. dirk goes down in game 3 of wcf. kg would have had a chance to win....but nothing more than a coin flip
06...made the finals...got there with dirk doing things i don't think kg could have done. very small chance they win.
07....very good chance for kg. but he still has to beat the duncan led spurs. 60% chance or so at the title
nothing else. no way is kg leading the 08/09/10 mavs anywhere. they just weren't good enough to win it all.
11? laughable. i'd love to see kg do anything with that team. it would have been a loss to the blazers or lakers.
Jacks3
10-28-2011, 04:59 PM
They would have won in 2003, 2006, and 2007. Plus, maybe 2011. lol @ not beating a old, beat up Lakers team with both of stars players playing well below their norm. :oldlol:
lol @ Prime KG not winning with those teams.
Unfortunately, he hasn't had consistently amazing supporting casts like Dork, so now people honestly think Dork is better. Incredible. :oldlol:
04 KG SHITS on any version of Dork.
DMAVS41
10-28-2011, 05:13 PM
They would have won in 2003, 2006, and 2007. Plus, maybe 2011. lol @ not beating a old, beat up Lakers team with both of stars players playing well below their norm. :oldlol:
lol @ Prime KG not winning with those teams.
Unfortunately, he hasn't had consistently amazing supporting casts like Dork, so now people honestly think Dork is better. Incredible. :oldlol:
04 KG SHITS on any version of Dork.
they could have won all three....definitely possible. likely? hardly.
i think dirk would have won more titles than kg on the celtics. don't see dirk doing nothing like kg did in game 7 in 2010....and obviously 09 dirk has a much better chance because kg was out. no different than subbing in a healthy kg for an injured dirk in 03. i like dirk's chances in 11 as well.
no way any version of kg wins with the 11 mavs though. all the close games? LOL at KG doing enough to beat those teams. very small chance to beat the lakers....and almost no chance beating the thunder or heat.
Inception28
10-28-2011, 06:02 PM
I might write an explanation on why I feel Dirk should be above KG in the all-time list soon, at least the argument for Dirk. I would make a new thread though seeing that this thread has been destroyed by posters comparing Player X to Dirk in scoring.
bizil
10-28-2011, 06:28 PM
For me, I would take KG peak level and on the all time list. But for the all around skills that Dirk lacks in comparison to KG, he makes up for a lot of that in his scoring ability. I feel Dirk is a better number one option than KG. Dirk is the premier number one option of his generation at the PF. Dirk, Kobe, Durant, Wade,prime AI, prime T Mac, and Melo in my book are on another level when it comes to number one options. Then u have guys like prime KG, prime Duncan, prime Carter, prime Ray, Bron, and prime Pierce who I consider true number one options too. But the other guys I named before them I feel had that other gear more consistently and would put the gas on sooner before the guys like KG or Bron. So if u had KG and Dirk on the same team, Dirk would be my number one option. But KG still classifies as a Batman in my book.
brisbaneman
10-29-2011, 05:14 AM
For me, I would take KG peak level and on the all time list. But for the all around skills that Dirk lacks in comparison to KG, he makes up for a lot of that in his scoring ability. I feel Dirk is a better number one option than KG. Dirk is the premier number one option of his generation at the PF. Dirk, Kobe, Durant, Wade,prime AI, prime T Mac, and Melo in my book are on another level when it comes to number one options. Then u have guys like prime KG, prime Duncan, prime Carter, prime Ray, Bron, and prime Pierce who I consider true number one options too. But the other guys I named before them I feel had that other gear more consistently and would put the gas on sooner before the guys like KG or Bron. So if u had KG and Dirk on the same team, Dirk would be my number one option. But KG still classifies as a Batman in my book.
i love it when people say peak kg is better than peak dirk. because peak dirk beat everyone in the top 5, and not just beat them, but absolutely dominated them, and without a second banana. i'm not sure who has had a better peak beyond jordan and maybe hakeem.
i love it when people say peak kg is better than peak dirk. because peak dirk beat everyone in the top 5, and not just beat them, but absolutely dominated them, and without a second banana. i'm not sure who has had a better peak beyond jordan and maybe hakeem.
I think that anyone who thinks that Dirk's peak is better than every other player except Jordan and "maybe" Hakeem needs to watch more basketball.
brisbaneman
10-29-2011, 06:51 AM
I think that anyone who thinks that Dirk's peak is better than every other player except Jordan and "maybe" Hakeem needs to watch more basketball.
he took out wade, lebron, durant, and kobe in convicing fashion---many "fans" claim any of those guys as the league's best player. give me some others runs by a guy with no second option that are better than that.
he took out wade, lebron, durant, and kobe in convicing fashion---many "fans" claim any of those guys as the league's best player. give me some others runs by a guy with no second option that are better than that.
Duncan 03 is one obvious answer to your question. You are forgetting that basketball is played on both sides of the court.
The reason the Mavs won this year was that the supporting cast was better than in previous years, not that this was Dirk's peak. Dirk's run was not better than "maybe" Hakeem's or Duncan's - nor did he have a worse supporting cast than theirs. Many players have had better "peaks" than Dirk.
DMAVS41
10-29-2011, 10:02 AM
I think that anyone who thinks that Dirk's peak is better than every other player except Jordan and "maybe" Hakeem needs to watch more basketball.
i don't think he means "peak"...like we would. i think he means playoff run. but he's still off anyway.
but you do have to factor in the great competition dirk/mavs went through. what team recently has had a harder road to the title? i honestly can't think of many.
blazers, lakers on the road, thunder, heat on the road.....
they went through 7 of the 20 best players in the league. 3 of the 5 or so best players in the league. according to ISH....the most stacked team of the era in the heat.
about as impressive of a title run as you can get....and dirk led the way...playing great ball and coming through time and time again in crunch time. only a handful of players in nba history have had a run like that given the circumstances.
SunsCaptain
10-29-2011, 10:11 AM
the most stacked team of the era in the heat.
They will be but last season they were not that good.
Outside the big 3:
Bench:
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/7/pts/8-1
Center:
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/10/pts/8-1
PG:
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/12/pts/8-1
Just wish people would stop overrating the team they had last year. It's a team game and they use 3 players. Down the road they will be a force to reckon with when they figure out how to fix EVERYTHING on the team (basically acquire new players) :blah
But seriously you cant call a team STACKED if it only has 3 players contributing regardless of how good those players are.
DMAVS41
10-29-2011, 10:18 AM
They will be but last season they were not that good.
Outside the big 3:
Bench:
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/7/pts/8-1
Center:
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/10/pts/8-1
PG:
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/12/pts/8-1
Just wish people would stop overrating the team they had last year. It's a team game and they use 3 players. Down the road they will be a force to reckon with when they figure out how to fix EVERYTHING on the team (basically acquire new players) :blah
But seriously you cant call a team STACKED if it only has 3 players contributing regardless of how good those players are.
Oh, I agree. I just find it funny. Going into the finals everyone was saying the heat's title doesn't count much because they were so good its unfair. Now? Oh well, they weren't that good...in order to diminish the mavs winning.
Same thing with Lakers fans....they all said they'd rather play the mavs than the blazers in the 2nd round. many saying for the reason that dirk just can't get it done...LOL...Now? Oh well, we weren't that good anyway...even though bynum was finally healthy and playing great etc....
The heat were hardly the most stacked team ever and had a lot of holes. They either have to admit that.....or give the Mavs credit for one of the most improbable playoff runs ever. Which is exactly what it was. Absolutely historic given what normally happens in the NBA playoffs.
Winning 2 series on the road as huge underdogs? Almost never happens. Winning a title with only 1 all nba player? Almost never happens.
Winning the title with only 1 all star? Almost never happens.
A lot of credit is due.....but the dirk haters that had their bs perceptions blown out of the water can't deal with it.
SCdac
10-29-2011, 03:29 PM
The heat were hardly the most stacked team ever and had a lot of holes. They either have to admit that.....or give the Mavs credit for one of the most improbable playoff runs ever. .
It's ironic though, If anybody has never admitted that, it's probably you. You tend do exactly what you say Dirk haters do (unfairly hate), only the opposite end of the spectrum. It's almost like you play devil's advocate for Dirk, even though you always admit that you have KG above him in your current all time list and you admit things like that (that the Heat weren't stacked).
Hey, I too think the Heat were a top-heavy team, maybe one of the heaviest ever... but toggling between old versions of Ilguaskas, Bibby, Arroyo, Dampier, etc... and dealing with Haslem's, Mike Millers injuries. That team was exposed as what is is, a team with a sick (albeit poorly fit) big 3 surrounded mostly by past-somebodies.
If anything, the Mavs perimeter defense and perimeter offense (Terry, Stevenson, Marion, Kidd, etc) exposed that HEAT team, but how much credit do they get from Dirk fanatics?
It's ironic though, If anybody has never admitted that, it's probably you. You tend do exactly what you say Dirk haters do (unfairly hate), only the opposite end of the spectrum. It's almost like you play devil's advocate for Dirk, even though you always admit that you have KG above him in your current all time list and you admit things like that (that the Heat weren't stacked).
Hey, I too think the Heat were a top-heavy team, maybe one of the heaviest ever... but toggling between old versions of Ilguaskas, Bibby, Arroyo, Dampier, etc... and dealing with Haslem's, Mike Millers injuries. That team was exposed as what is is, a team with a sick (albeit poorly fit) big 3 surrounded mostly by past-somebodies.
If anything, the Mavs perimeter defense and perimeter offense (Terry, Stevenson, Marion, Kidd, etc) exposed that HEAT team, but how much credit do they get from Dirk fanatics?
B-b-b-b-b-b-bu-bu-bu-bu-but LeBrick choked!!!!!!!!!
brisbaneman
10-30-2011, 01:10 AM
Duncan 03 is one obvious answer to your question. You are forgetting that basketball is played on both sides of the court.
The reason the Mavs won this year was that the supporting cast was better than in previous years, not that this was Dirk's peak. Dirk's run was not better than "maybe" Hakeem's or Duncan's - nor did he have a worse supporting cast than theirs. Many players have had better "peaks" than Dirk.
No, Duncan beat one great team (lakers) and beat a dirk-less mavs (him and dirk were a wash through 2.5 games) and an average nets team.
dirk played very well on both ends.
Dirk's peak has been surpassed by at most a handful of players. I am sorry. He singlehandedly took games over and had several game winners.
Meticode
10-30-2011, 01:15 AM
By the time their careers are over I think it'll be pretty close. Dirk is far and above a better offensive player than Garnett. And Garnett is far and above a better defensive player than Dirk. The biggest advantages Dirk has two main reasons to help his case. One, he won a ring being the absolute main man on his team and he came through in the clutch time after time after time. Two, Dirk is going to go down as the greatest international basketball player to ever play in the NBA. Garnett on the other hand won a ring with the help of two other probable hall-of-famers. Not to take anything away from Garnett.
Darius
10-30-2011, 03:19 AM
KG had move overall skill, no doubt but Basketball is about an elite skill applied at an elite time.
Dirk has had that... and that's what can win championships.
KG is a great all-around player but isn't leading a team by himself. Pierce won them the championship.
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