Steve Francis vs Derrick Rose

[Clippersfan86]

Pick one. Who was better prime Francis or current Rose? Who do you like more personally?

Steve Francis: 21.6 ppg, 7 rpg, 6 apg, 1.2 spg on 42 percent shooting from the field.

or

Derrick Rose: 25 ppg, 4 rpg, 7.7 apg, 1 spg on 44.5 percent shooting from the field.


I personally think Francis was a tad bit more talented and skilled but Rose is already more impactful than prime Francis. Rose had 13 win shares this year to Francis' best of 11.

I'd take Rose but I personally liked Francis a lot more. I don't think we'll ever see another 6'2 or 6'3 player average 7 rpg and get blocks and tip jams so regularly.

[Smoke117]

Rose probably though Steve Francis stats would be better if he was playing in this era during his prime obviously so Rose but not by much at this point if at all.

[NuggetsFan]

Derrick Rose. Easily. Dude just helped lead his team(the rebounding\D was also huge part of there success) to 62 wins. Something I don't think was doable with Francis. Rose is a better scorer and even better at getting others involved witch is saying something. A few extra boards at the 1\2 spot doesn't change that for me.

Didn't seem like a hard question at all for me, curious to what others think. Rose's 3rd year in the NBA literally trumps anything Francis ever did.

[millwad]

This shouldn't even be a discussion, Derrick Rose in his 3 years as a NBA-PRO has accomplished more than what Francis did over his whole career.

I'm a Rocket and Francis-fan but the guy never played on the same level as Rose. See, Francis never even cracked a top 20 MVP award list during his career and Derrick plays more effective basketball.

And Francis during his career only played 5 playoff-games, yeah, he played on shitty teams as well but still, he wasn't better than Rose.

[Clippersfan86]

Derrick Rose. Easily. Dude just helped lead his team(the rebounding\D was also huge part of there success) to 62 wins. Something I don't think was doable with Francis. Rose is a better scorer and even better at getting others involved witch is saying something. A few extra boards at the 1\2 spot doesn't change that for me.

Didn't seem like a hard question at all for me, curious to what others think. Rose's 3rd year in the NBA literally trumps anything Francis ever did.

Actually this was Stevie's 3rd season as well, not long before the injury monsters got to him. Steve Francis is a forgotten player who was incredibly underrated and people like me will always wonder what could have been.

People who didn't watch basketball for at least the last 10 years wouldn't know Francis but the reason I made this thread is because they have very similar games. Both incredible athletes, scoring PG's, have anklebreaking handles, deadly first step. List goes on.

People think Rose is some sort of new PG but that's because they didn't watch Francis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDLfvePfHtc

[millwad]

Rose probably though Steve Francis stats would be better if he was playing in this era during his prime obviously so Rose but not by much at this point if at all.

This era?
Francis hit his prime 8 years ago.

[Clippersfan86]

This shouldn't even be a discussion, Derrick Rose in his 3 years as a NBA-PRO has accomplished more than what Francis did over his whole career.

I'm a Rocket and Francis-fan but the guy never played on the same level as Rose. See, Francis never even cracked a top 20 MVP award list during his career and Derrick plays more effective basketball.

And Francis during his career only played 5 playoff-games, yeah, he played on shitty teams as well but still, he wasn't better than Rose.

This comes down to Rose having a much better all around team. I think they are similar enough statistically and talent wise to neither of these players should be picked impulsively. Both have a case. Rose had 1 deep playoff run so far, Francis wasn't as lucky. His prime was very short due to injuries.

As for him not cracking into the MVP race.. that doesn't mean anything. It just proves how underrated he is. In 01-02 he was a top 5 player arguably.

[Clippersfan86]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUw_sTs1xz0

[Clippersfan86]

lol

BTW you called Rose the most athletic PG in NBA history. Francis says hi.

[millwad]

This comes down to Rose having a much better all around team. I think they are similar enough statistically and talent wise to neither of these players should be picked impulsively. Both have a case. Rose had 1 deep playoff run so far, Francis wasn't as lucky. His prime was very short due to injuries.

As for him not cracking into the MVP race.. that doesn't mean anything. It just proves how underrated he is. In 01-02 he was a top 5 player arguably.

No, he wasn't. Francis was never a top 5 player..
And yes, I know his prime was very short, he played for the only NBA team I follow. Although I like Francis, he was really skilled and had a big heart, he played like a bonehead from time to time.

And it's not only about playing on a good team, Rose made his team better and yes, he has more talent on his team then what Francis ever did but still there's no doubt about Rose being a better player.

[Smoke117]

This era?
Francis hit his prime 8 years ago.

...yeah before 2006 when soft ball really took over.

[Clippersfan86]

No, he wasn't. Francis was never a top 5 player..
And yes, I know his prime was very short, he played for the only NBA team I follow. Although I like Francis, he was really skilled and had a big heart, he played like a bonehead from time to time.

And it's not only about playing on a good team, Rose made his team better and yes, he has more talent on his team then what Francis ever did but still there's no doubt about Rose being a better player.

Well I think there is a doubt because as I said... Rose hasn't done enough yet in 3 seasons to flat out say there isn't a comparison. There is a reason Francis had the nickname "The Franchise". Dude was the truth. As a Rockets fan watching him a lot I'm surprised you think it's Rose without even giving Francis consideration.

I watched a lot of Francis+Mobley and even more when Yao came along. I loved the Rockets. I think impact wise Rose has an edge as I said... but statistically and skill wise they are on the same level. I mainly want to throw Francis out there because people seem to think Rose is the first super athlete, score first PG... or at least the first all star one. People need to remember Steve Francis was before him.

[SCdac]

I'd take Rose quite easily. Francis was the kind of player who would pout, whine, give up, and seemed like an overall jerk. There's reasons he's bounced around from team to team and even got kicked off the Chinese team after NBA retirement. Dude cried after being drafted by a team he didn't want to go to. There's more to the game than stats, and the talent that created those stats.

[Clippersfan86]

what does Steve Francis have over Derrick Rose?

Higher vert, equally explosive, much stronger, quicker change of direction. Vince Carter and Francis had the highest vert in the league at his peak. Dude not only had a 42 inch vert but was an all around athletic beast. Watch the clips I posted in this thread and you'll understand. Dude could dunk on 7 footers with contact.

[Clippersfan86]

I'd take Rose quite easily. Francis was the kind of player who would pout, whine, give up, and seemed like an overall jerk. There's reasons he's bounced around from team to team and even got kicked off the Chinese team after NBA retirement. Dude cried after being drafted by a team he didn't want to go to. There's more to the game than stats, and the talent that created those stats.

So you'd probably take Rose over peak Iverson too right?

[SCdac]

So you'd probably take Rose over peak Iverson too right?

*sigh* ... are you implying Francis is anything close to peak Iverson?

come on, you know what I'm saying man.

[Clippersfan86]

*sigh* ... are you implying Francis is anything close to peak Iverson?

come on, you know what I'm saying man.

Not at all. I'm saying Francis and Iverson bounced around the league because of supposed bad attitudes. Funny thing is you have players around the league that defended their actions and attitudes and could relate to it. I think they just had bad lucky with nagging injuries, being poorly managed etc.

It's sad how in sports landing in the wrong system or right system can make or break your career. Guys like T Mac and Vince Carter people think are completely done because of their attitude or lesser roles but if you put current Carter on a team like let's say the Bobcats... he could still be a 20, 5 and 5 player. Same with guys like Iverson who are supposedly done.

Point is I don't think you should be factoring attitude and rumors into who's the better player, unless you're answering my question on personal preference.

[SCdac]

Not at all. I'm saying Francis and Iverson bounced around the league because of supposed bad attitudes. Funny thing is you have players around the league that defended their actions and attitudes and could relate to it. I think they just had bad lucky with nagging injuries, being poorly managed etc.

It's sad how in sports landing in the wrong system or right system can make or break your career. Guys like T Mac and Vince Carter people think are completely done because of their attitude or lesser roles but if you put current Carter on a team like let's say the Bobcats... he could still be a 20, 5 and 5 player. Same with guys like Iverson who are supposedly done.

Point is I don't think you should be factoring attitude and rumors into who's the better player, unless you're answering my question on personal preference.

Dude, the NBA is not a video game. it's not a simulation. it's not fantasy basketball (in which numbers rule all).

Attitude, mentality, leadership, understanding... that stuff matters :confusedshrug:

spare me with this "the players are victims of a bad system" stuff.

[Clippersfan86]

Dude, the NBA is not a video game. it's not a simulation. it's not fantasy basketball (in which numbers rule all).

Attitude, mentality, leadership, understanding... that stuff matters :confusedshrug:

spare me with this "the players are victims of a bad system" stuff.

Trust me... I account for intangibles. I just think you using "bad attitude" on a player that was derailed by injuries and had a very short prime isn't fair. When Francis was on the Rockets he was an OUTSTANDING leader. The guy poured his heart and soul into the Rockets and their fans the way KG did with the Wolves. He deserves a lot more respect than you're giving him. Maybe in Orlando and on he started declining because of attitude and work ethic...

Thing is I'm not asking you to compare them over their career. The reason I specified peak vs current was because I knew people would lack objectivity on the matter rather than actually factoring in only the important things. I told you to pick who you personally like more as well so that's fine to say Rose... I just think you're straying from my main point of this thread. Let me clarify again.

01-02 Francis vs 10-11 Derrick Rose. Which player do you feel was better, who do you prefer? Stats, both metric and raw... show they are comparable and on the same level. Their games are extremely similar.

Possibly the 2 most athletic PG's in NBA history.

[SCdac]

Trust me... I account for intangibles. I just think you using "bad attitude" on a player that was derailed by injuries and had a very short prime isn't fair. When Francis was on the Rockets he was an OUTSTANDING leader. The guy poured his heart and soul into the Rockets and their fans the way KG did with the Wolves. He deserves a lot more respect than you're giving him. Maybe in Orlando and on he started declining because of attitude and work ethic...

Thing is I'm not asking you to compare them over their career. The reason I specified peak vs current was because I knew people would lack objectivity on the matter rather than actually factoring in only the important things. I told you to pick who you personally like more as well so that's fine to say Rose... I just think you're straying from my main point of this thread. Let me clarify again.

01-02 Francis vs 10-11 Derrick Rose. Which player do you feel was better, who do you prefer? Stats, both metric and raw... show they are comparable and on the same level. Their games are extremely similar.

Possibly the 2 most athletic PG's in NBA history.

Rose. Better, more efficient scorer. and a much better leader for a team that won much more than 28 games out of 82. I realize this is one season vs. one season, but knowing what I know about Steve Francis, I'd take Rose in a heartbeat. In the OP you didn't really mention anything about intangibles, so I figured you're not taking them into account. I definitely do. Francis was a whiner, even when he was with Houston.

[Bigsmoke]

lol Derrick Rose by far.

Derrick Rose vs Gary Payton or Chris Paul would be better comparisons

[nathanjizzle]

threads like this prove why derrick rose is still underrated.

[NuggetsFan]

Actually this was Stevie's 3rd season as well, not long before the injury monsters got to him. Steve Francis is a forgotten player who was incredibly underrated and people like me will always wonder what could have been.

People who didn't watch basketball for at least the last 10 years wouldn't know Francis but the reason I made this thread is because they have very similar games. Both incredible athletes, scoring PG's, have anklebreaking handles, deadly first step. List goes on.

People think Rose is some sort of new PG but that's because they didn't watch Francis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDLfvePfHtc

Your acting like the Franchise is a player from the 90's. Dude peaked in the mid 00's. He's not some undiscovered player, he was deff more flash than substance and it made him pretty popular. Didn't the dude try a self bounce Alley mid game?.

So my statement still stands correct. Derrick Rose in his 3rd year easily trumped anything Francis ever did. MVP, Eastern Conference Finals, 62 wins. Averaged better numbers overall on route to all those things as well.

Rose overall was the better scorer. Better "PG" in the sense that I don't think he's as selfish as Francis and more capable of running an offense. He's already found more success as a 3rd year player. Francis made the playoff once? I think anyways something like that.

Rose and Francis are both athletic points that are fun to watch. You throw peak Francis numbers out there so it doesn't like bad. Anybody who was looking to compete for an NBA championship is taking Rose IMO.

[rodman91]

Francis was good but Rose is more agressive,better slasher and better leader.

Stats don't tell real story.Rose's impact of the game is much higher than Francis had ever.

[B-Low]

Everyone that's seen me post in here knows Francis is my favorite player of all time, but even I gotta say Rose is better.

I do think Francis was more athletic, but as a player Rose has him beat. Francis lacked the mentality needed to be an MVP type player. He was all heart and no brain on the court. Loved his courage, loved his intensity, loved his desire to entertain, loved how much he cared about his teammates (hell the dude tried to fight AMARE because he disrespected Yao), but his head just never said "be the best" like Rose's seems to. His temper and heart got the better of him too often.

It's a shame too cuz I really think if that Rockets team from 02-03 had stayed together under Rudy T they coulda ended up as one of the better West teams. JVG killed Francis.

[NuggetsFan]

loved how much he cared about his teammates


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2351/2183831259_d27f6a3626.jpg

He did love himself some Cuttino :oldlol:

[ukplayer4]

francis had other world physical talent but rose is already the better, smarter player. they had a very similar package tho thats for sure and coming into the nba i always felt rose and francis were so similar physically. francis tho, as scary as it is to admit had even greater physical gifts and was just a much greater highlight reel player, that isnt even a debate, franchise was cramming on EVERYONE. rose should be but he seems scared as hell of dunking, so many of the lanes he has to the basket off of his explosions by people are finished with weak hanging layups, francis just dunked everything and he also had much more flash and street to his handle. francis was snapping ankles all over the place and finishing with dunks for that reason i much prefer to watch francis. rose tho im convinced is the better player it just annoys me how hes just scared of dunking.

[NinjaSeal]

as much as i wanna say derrick rose i say steve francis... u guys must of forgot...
who is rose dunking on now?

francis was beasting on real centers

not a water downed league

people dont know basketball

[NinjaSeal]

and i know im rite , francis would dunk on al horford and tim duncan

i dont see rose dunking the way francis did!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY4k0QttPi8

[Burgz]

the majority of rose's misses are from jumpshots, while francis shot a low clip due to poor shot selection in general

rose's shot selection isnt necessarily bad, he is just young and needs to work on that part of his game. I see his FG% going way up as soon as he learns to draw fouls in the air, i dont know why he always tries to avoid contact :facepalm

[ukplayer4]

a much better francis mix- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqUefRwNSw&feature=related


classic dunk- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2F0XzDhZ-Q&feature=related

[DevilsAssassin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpEJ5aSxep8

muh....Derrick Rose dunks are more impressive IMO

[B-Low]

a much better francis mix- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqUefRwNSw&feature=related

Damn nice I've never seen that one before. Repped :cheers:

I'm beggin someone to watch that entire video and try to tell me that Rose is a better athlete. Better overall when it's all said and done? Yeah Rose wins, but Franchise in his prime was the most athletic PG ever IMO

Again, just watch the video ifrst

[Clippersfan86]

Damn nice I've never seen that one before. Repped :cheers:

I'm beggin someone to watch that entire video and try to tell me that Rose is a better athlete. Better overall when it's all said and done? Yeah Rose wins, but Franchise in his prime was the most athletic PG ever IMO

Again, just watch the video ifrst

Careful Rose homers may get mad. I'm glad you're also a big fan of Francis. I loved his game. He was so fun to watch. I understand why most would take Rose in this comparison BUT people really need to not comment on Francis if they didn't watch him a lot in his younger years. These people saying "Rose not even close" didn't see him play and I'm 100 percent sure of that.

They have more similarities than most people would know. Also as I said before statistically they weren't far apart. Win shares 13 to 11 in favor of Rose, hardly a massive difference. As good as Rose is.... Francis did have advantages. Better ball handler, better athlete, better rebounder, better playing the passing lanes and blocking shots.

[ukplayer4]

Careful Rose homers may get mad. I'm glad you're also a big fan of Francis. I loved his game. He was so fun to watch. I understand why most would take Rose in this comparison BUT people really need to not comment on Francis if they didn't watch him a lot in his younger years. These people saying "Rose not even close" didn't see him play and I'm 100 percent sure of that.

They have more similarities than most people would know. Also as I said before statistically they weren't far apart. Win shares 13 to 11 in favor of Rose, hardly a massive difference. As good as Rose is.... Francis did have advantages. Better ball handler, better athlete, better rebounder, better playing the passing lanes and blocking shots.



yep id agree with all of that.



I'm beggin someone to watch that entire video and try to tell me that Rose is a better athlete. Better overall when it's all said and done? Yeah Rose wins, but Franchise in his prime was the most athletic PG ever IMO



and that

[thejumpa]

lol Derrick Rose by far.

Derrick Rose vs Gary Payton or Chris Paul would be better comparisons

Slap yourself. Rose is nowhere near Gary Payton or Chris Paul....well maybe Paul. Definitely not Gary Payton. The only thing he has on him is pure athleticism. That's it.

Francis and Rose are so similar it's not even funny. I really don't understand how people can Rose "easily". Francis did everything Rose does and more. Call me when Rose is coming down the lane smashing on grown men like it's nothing.

[Clippersfan86]

Slap yourself. Rose is nowhere near Gary Payton or Chris Paul....well maybe Paul. Definitely not Gary Payton. The only thing he has on him is pure athleticism. That's it.

Francis and Rose are so similar it's not even funny. I really don't understand how people can Rose "easily". Francis did everything Rose does and more. Call me when Rose is coming down the lane smashing on grown men like it's nothing.

Rose isn't worthy to hold a healthy CP3's nuts and to say Rose>Payton is saying Rose already belongs in top 5 PG of all time discussions which is insane. People here are so quick to call me a Griffin homer but I'm nothing compared to these Rose fans on ISH.

[DevilsAssassin]

Slap yourself. Rose is nowhere near Gary Payton or Chris Paul....well maybe Paul. Definitely not Gary Payton. The only thing he has on him is pure athleticism. That's it.

Francis and Rose are so similar it's not even funny. I really don't understand how people can Rose "easily". Francis did everything Rose does and more. Call me when Rose is coming down the lane smashing on grown men like it's nothing.

:facepalm

Crowns Joel Anthony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEEFKh8ZsiI

Greg Oden meets Derrick Rose
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA6lJTcKHxk

Derrick Rose > Steve Francis and it's not close

[DevilsAssassin]

Careful Rose homers may get mad. I'm glad you're also a big fan of Francis. I loved his game. He was so fun to watch. I understand why most would take Rose in this comparison BUT people really need to not comment on Francis if they didn't watch him a lot in his younger years. These people saying "Rose not even close" didn't see him play and I'm 100 percent sure of that.

They have more similarities than most people would know. Also as I said before statistically they weren't far apart. Win shares 13 to 11 in favor of Rose, hardly a massive difference. As good as Rose is.... Francis did have advantages. Better ball handler, better athlete, better rebounder, better playing the passing lanes and blocking shots.

lol @ using win share to determine impact or how good a player is.

better ball handler, but yet he was more turnover prone.

Better athlete ............ that's debateable, i think Derrick Rose allaround was more athletic than Francis ..........quickness, speed, vertical leap, strength, explosiveness, etc.

better playing the passing lanes doesn't always = better defender.........

blocking shots :lol Derrick Rose 0.6BPG ......Francis 0.4BPG

[Clippersfan86]

lol @ using win share to determine impact or how good a player is.

better ball handler, but yet he was more turnover prone.

Better athlete ............ that's debateable, i think Derrick Rose allaround was more athletic than Francis ..........quickness, speed, vertical leap, strength, explosiveness, etc.

better playing the passing lanes doesn't always = better defender.........

blocking shots :lol Derrick Rose 0.6BPG ......Francis 0.4BPG

Francis was a more capable shotblocker as well as a more skilled one. You have to watch a player to know that. .2 difference isn't anything.

[B-Low]

:facepalm

Crowns Joel Anthony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEEFKh8ZsiI

Greg Oden meets Derrick Rose
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA6lJTcKHxk

Derrick Rose > Steve Francis and it's not close

Age: 18

So let's see when Francis had his best seasons, you were about 8-9 years old. Move along.

[Clippersfan86]

Age: 18

So let's see when Francis had his best seasons, you were about 8-9 years old. Move along.

:roll: :roll: . It's funny when people don't even ATTEMPT to watch footage on a player yet troll like an idiot. I mean you won't see me going in threads about Mikan vs Baylor or something and giving a ton of opinions. Why? Because I have very limited viewing experience of them. I watched Francis' entire career in Houston and Orlando. Not every game but regularly enough to become a fan of his. This Bulls stan literally hasn't seen a single Franchise game from when he was a Rocket.

[DevilsAssassin]

Age: 18

So let's see when Francis had his best seasons, you were about 8-9 years old. Move along.

lol @ comparing a league's MVP to an overrated stat padder.

When the Houston Rockets made the playoffs in 2004(Steve Francis) first post season appearance he wasn't the best player on his team. It was Yao Ming.

Steve Francis: 16PPG 5RPG 6APG 40FG%
Derrick Rose: 25PPG 4RPG 7APG 44FG%

and don't even try to bring out season stats when Stevie team didn't make the playoffs

[B-Low]

lol @ comparing a league's MVP to an overrated stat padder.

Yep, you ignore the whole "being 8" thing and continue to judge a player you never even saw play in his prime.

[Clippersfan86]

lol @ comparing a league's MVP to an overrated stat padder.

You realize in Francis' prime there were guys like prime Shaq, Kobe, Vince Carter, Duncan, KG, Jason Kidd, Tracy McGrady, Gary Payton, Chris Webber, Allen Iverson, Ben Wallace etc? Rose didn't have a third of that level of competition.

[Clippersfan86]

Yep, you ignore the whole "being 8" thing and continue to judge a player you never even saw play in his prime.

:oldlol: . He's been running rampant with Rose fellatio lately.

[DevilsAssassin]

Yep, you ignore the whole "being 8" thing and continue to judge a player you never even saw play in his prime.
When the Houston Rockets made the playoffs in 2004(Steve Francis) first post season appearance he wasn't the best player on his team. It was Yao Ming.

Steve Francis: 16PPG 5RPG 6APG 40FG%
Derrick Rose: 25PPG 4RPG 7APG 44FG%

and don't even try to bring out season stats when Stevie team didn't make the playoffs

[B-Low]

2 of the years Francis didn't make the playoffs, the Rockets finished with the best record in HISTORY (at the time) for a team that missed the playoffs. And that was back when the West was a fckin POWERHOUSE.

Rose on the other hand plays in the East in the absolute weakest era we've seen in decades for a single conference. Chicago, Miami, Boston...then *crickets*

You put those Francis Rockets teams in the current East and they woulda had home court easily.

[DevilsAssassin]

You realize in Francis' prime there were guys like prime Shaq, Kobe, Vince Carter, Duncan, KG, Jason Kidd, Tracy McGrady, Gary Payton, Chris Webber, Allen Iverson, Ben Wallace etc? Rose didn't have a third of that level of competition.

You do realize Derrick Rose is just in his 4th year in the league and is already amongst as one of the league's best players?

Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Deron Williams, Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant, Amare Stoudemire, Dirk Nowitzki,

[G-train]

When the Houston Rockets made the playoffs in 2004(Steve Francis) first post season appearance he wasn't the best player on his team. It was Yao Ming.

Steve Francis: 16PPG 5RPG 6APG 40FG%
Derrick Rose: 25PPG 4RPG 7APG 44FG%

and don't even try to bring out season stats when Stevie team didn't make the playoffs

Francis was a good player in his short career. You are not showing him any respect at all son.

[Clippersfan86]

You do realize Derrick Rose is just in his 4th year in the league and is already amongst as one of the league's best players?

Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Deron Williams, Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant, Amare Stoudemire, Dirk Nowitzki,

Yes and I'm telling you the best players right now aren't sh** compared to the best players in 00-03. Not even close dude.

[zass]

I was suprised how Rose's game reassembles Francis's untill he was brought up today! Just Francis's dunks were more powerful. Nice comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD-gy0PfOxE

No. 4 is too awsome.

[NuggetsFan]

Francis and Rose are so similar it's not even funny. I really don't understand how people can Rose "easily". Francis did everything Rose does and more. Call me when Rose is coming down the lane smashing on grown men like it's nothing.

Maybe so, but Rose just does it better. He gets others involved better, he scores better. Honestly Francis was just fun to watch. He wasn't a player you constructed an NBA championship team out of. Why I take Derrick Rose easily is pretty simple. I ask myself these questions

- Could you put Francis on the Bulls and still win 62 games?
- Would that team advance to the ECF?

Rose was literally put into a A.I like situation. We'll give you defense and rebounding while you shoulder the offensive load. Noah\Boozer had injuries. Keith Bogans logged the majority of the minutes at the 2 spot.

One player put up better numbers on teams going places. The other didn't. Can spin it anyway you want it because there both extremely athletic points but one simply didn't have success in the league. Only thing Francis did better than Rose was rebound. Doubt he pulls down 7 a game on this year's Bulls anyways.

[DevilsAssassin]

Yes and I'm telling you the best players right now aren't sh** compared to the best players in 00-03. Not even close dude.


The league is more stacked than it was back in the early 2000's.

It's not more star studded....... yet, but it is more depth than it was before.

[Clippersfan86]

I was suprised how Rose's game reassembles Francis's untill he was brought up today! Just Francis's dunks were more powerful. Nice comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD-gy0PfOxE

No. 4 is too awsome.

Glad this thread brought some awareness to Steve. He deserves it. I wanted people to see Rose isn't the first of his kind, Francis was. I loved the guys handles. Outside of Iverson dude had the sickest handles in the NBA for a few years. I'd even take him over Starbury, Kidd and Jason Williams in that regard. The way he just toyed with defenders was amazing.

Very few players have ever played with so much flash and style. The only current player that has anywhere near the level of flashiness is D Wade and he isn't as flashy as Francis. I mean who the hell throws alley oops to himself in games? Throws no look alley oops to teammates on the break? Pulls off And 1 crossovers and moves in games? It's crazy.

[Clippersfan86]

The league is more stacked than it was back in the early 2000's.

It's not more star studded....... yet, but it is more depth than it was before.

:roll: :roll: . Everyone is going to troll the hell out of you now dude. Let me say it again.

PRIME Shaq (literally his peak 00-03), Arguably prime Kobe, MVP Allen Iverson, prime Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, prime Tim Duncan, prime KG, Ben Wallace, Chris Webber, prime Paul Pierce, Elton Brand, prime Dirk (25 ppg). Do you really wanna say this era has more depth in general OR at the top?

[DevilsAssassin]

You realize in Francis' prime there were guys like prime Shaq, Kobe, Vince Carter, Duncan, KG, Jason Kidd, Tracy McGrady, Gary Payton, Chris Webber, Allen Iverson, Ben Wallace etc? Rose didn't have a third of that level of competition.



This comes down to Rose having a much better all around team. I think they are similar enough statistically and talent wise to neither of these players should be picked impulsively. Both have a case. Rose had 1 deep playoff run so far, Francis wasn't as lucky. His prime was very short due to injuries.

As for him not cracking into the MVP race.. that doesn't mean anything. It just proves how underrated he is. In 01-02 he was a top 5 player arguably.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

but but Steve Francis was a top 5 player in the nba

[Clippersfan86]

but was he better than Derrick Rose is what i'm asking.

You're not asking us sh**. You're telling us Rose is better in every way and it's not even a comparison.

[Clippersfan86]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

but but Steve Francis was a top 5 player in the nba

He was arguably a top 5 all around player. It's no shame he wasn't in the MVP race when you look at the talent I just mentioned :confusedshrug: . I'll tell you this. Prime Francis right now on a good team is a top 5 player most likely. Imagine the more favorable rules now for perimeter players and all the bit** fouls? He'd be putting up what Rose is now with more rebounding.

[DevilsAssassin]

He was arguably a top 5 all around player. It's no shame he wasn't in the MVP race when you look at the talent I just mentioned :confusedshrug: . I'll tell you this. Prime Francis right now on a good team is a top 5 player most likely. Imagine the more favorable rules now for perimeter players and all the bit** fouls? He'd be putting up what Rose is now with more rebounding.

ON A TEAM THAT WAS GOING NOWHERE!!!

When He finally got some talent around him, and his coach demanded he play team basketball............his stats fell off, and he wasn't the same since.

don't compare a dude who made the playoff once in his career to a LEAGUE MVP

[Clippersfan86]

ON A TEAM THAT WAS GOING NOWHERE!!!

When He finally got some talent around him, and his coach demanded he play team basketball............his stats fell off, and he wasn't the same since.

don't compare a dude who made the playoff once in his career to a LEAGUE MVP

Yes because a person who didn't watch him play at all is an expert on why he fell off. His decline actually didn't come until he sustained nagging injuries and was being used poorly as a bench player in NY. His first year in Orlando he had the second best year of his career.

He was absolutely dominating until Mobley was traded to the Kings. In his second year he got suspended for voicing his problem with the Magic but they were going in a direction they didn't like and he was their star player, so it's fair game.

21 ppg, 6 rpg and 7 apg on more efficient shooting doesn't sound like a decline to me. That's what he put up in Orlando.

[Dave3]

They're similar athletically, but otherwise Derrick Rose is in a completely different tier of players than Francis. Francis was never a top 5 player or top 5 MVP candidate. There's not a single year where he was even arguably top 10. How can this be a thread ClippersFan? They're not close.

[DevilsAssassin]

Yes because a person who didn't watch him play at all is an expert on why he fell off. His decline actually didn't come until he sustained nagging injuries and was being used poorly as a bench player in NY. His first year in Orlando he had the second best year of his career.

He was absolutely dominating until Mobley was traded to the Kings. In his second year he got suspended for voicing his problem with the Magic but they were going in a direction they didn't like and he was their star player, so it's fair game.

21 ppg, 6 rpg and 7 apg on more efficient shooting doesn't sound like a decline to me. That's what he put up in Orlando.

yet the Orlando Magic didn't make the playoffs :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Clippersfan86]

yet the Orlando Magic didn't make the playoffs :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Much like in Houston.... They had 2-3 good players including Francis and a terrible bench/depth. In this league dude it takes a lot more than just 2 good players to lead a team anywhere. No question Francis should of done more with his teams which is why I said Rose has more impact on the game early in this thread. The Magic had Francis, Grant Hill and solid rookie big Dwight Howard. After that the roster is complete sh**.

[HylianNightmare]

rose, but damn this thread reminded me how bad ass stevie used to be

[Kblaze8855]

I remember Steve Francis. Well. Very very well. I sat on ISh and discussed him. A lot. And you know what people were saying? That they didnt want him anywhere near their team. Not..."Hes overrated". There were plenty of people who flat out did not feel he was worth having on a team. I remember people pissed off he made the ASG. I was actually on the pro francis side a bit mostly because I thought it was funny to call a guy a chucker when he shot like 15 times a game. He was a ballhog. An epic almost unmatched ball hog. But he wasnt a chucker.

However...I think something is telling...

Steve Francis was a pointguard who every time he made a decent pass....people were shocked. His selfishness got to such a point that NBA home videos on Yao went into it. One segment was on Yaos first game vs the Lakers. Yao had a good game. But they showed Francis dribble around like 12 seconds(long time to watch) and Yao came open....and Francis...made a basic 2 handed pass out of a jumper. Yao dunked it. And the story was "See! Steve Francis will pass!".

Steve dribbled around and couldnt get a shot. I think Kobe was on him. He rose...and fired a pass to an undefended Yao for an easy dunk. And it was a story. Horns literally sounded in celebration in the video. Francis had proven that he would pass....to a wide open teammate.

That is terrible. A point guard makes a basic pass to an open teammate and its noteworthy...because its Steve Francis.

Guy was just not a point guard. Not in a shoots too much way. He didnt have a feel for passing or making plays really. And often he wasnt even running their offense. He waved off so many plays in progress to go one on one it was hilarious to watch.

Not that he wasnt helping his team....I wanna say the year before they got yao they went like 2-27 without him. Feels about right...I think I said it many times back then.


Steve was....a short 2 guard who was his teams primary ball handler. Rose is....a scoring point guard. The difference is subtle but...clear.


Francis may have had the best ratio of passes to assists ever. Felt like half his passes were lobs to Cato or kick outs for a 3. He was way more of a ball stopper than Rose is. Rose was better at picking his spots and taking over even in his first season. Rose vs the Celtics his first year...game 1 would have been the best game Steve ever played under pressure(granted he never played many important games to begin with).

And how is he arguably top 5 in 02?



Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Mcgrady
Webber
Kg
Dirk
Kidd

Hes arguably better than 4 of them?

[DevilsAssassin]

I remember Steve Francis. Well. Very very well. I sat on ISh and discussed him. A lot. And you know what people were saying? That they didnt want him anywhere near their team. Not..."Hes overrated". There were plenty of people who flat out did not feel he was worth having on a team. I remember people pissed off he made the ASG. I was actually on the pro francis side a bit mostly because I thought it was funny to call a guy a chucker when he shot like 15 times a game. He was a ballhog. An epic almost unmatched ball hog. But he wasnt a chucker.

However...I think something is telling...

Steve Francis was a pointguard who every time he made a decent pass....people were shocked. His selfishness got to such a point that NBA home videos on Yao went into it. One segment was on Yaos first game vs the Lakers. Yao had a good game. But they showed Francis dribble around like 12 seconds(long time to watch) and Yao came open....and Francis...made a basic 2 handed pass out of a jumper. Yao dunked it. And the story was "See! Steve Francis will pass!".

Steve dribbled around and couldnt get a shot. I think Kobe was on him. He rose...and fired a pass to an undefended Yao for an easy dunk. And it was a story. Horns literally sounded in celebration in the video. Francis had proven that he would pass....to a wide open teammate.

That is terrible. A point guard makes a basic pass to an open teammate and its noteworthy...because its Steve Francis.

Guy was just not a point guard. Not in a shoots too much way. He didnt have a feel for passing or making plays really. And often he wasnt even running their offense. He waved off so many plays in progress to go one on one it was hilarious to watch.

Not that he wasnt helping his team....I wanna say the year before they got yao they went like 2-27 without him. Feels about right...I think I said it many times back then.


Steve was....a short 2 guard who was his teams primary ball handler. Rose is....a scoring point guard. The difference is subtle but...clear.


Francis may have had the best ratio of passes to assists ever. Felt like half his passes were lobs to Cato or kick outs for a 3. He was way more of a ball stopper than Rose is. Rose was better at picking his spots and taking over even in his first season. Rose vs the Celtics his first year...game 1 would have been the best game Steve ever played under pressure(granted he never played many important games to begin with).

And how is he arguably top 5 in 02?



Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Mcgrady
Webber
Kg
Dirk
Kidd

Hes arguably better than 4 of them?


http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/images/ether.jpg

[Clippersfan86]

I remember Steve Francis. Well. Very very well. I sat on ISh and discussed him. A lot. And you know what people were saying? That they didnt want him anywhere near their team. Not..."Hes overrated". There were plenty of people who flat out did not feel he was worth having on a team. I remember people pissed off he made the ASG. I was actually on the pro francis side a bit mostly because I thought it was funny to call a guy a chucker when he shot like 15 times a game. He was a ballhog. An epic almost unmatched ball hog. But he wasnt a chucker.

However...I think something is telling...

Steve Francis was a pointguard who every time he made a decent pass....people were shocked. His selfishness got to such a point that NBA home videos on Yao went into it. One segment was on Yaos first game vs the Lakers. Yao had a good game. But they showed Francis dribble around like 12 seconds(long time to watch) and Yao came open....and Francis...made a basic 2 handed pass out of a jumper. Yao dunked it. And the story was "See! Steve Francis will pass!".

Steve dribbled around and couldnt get a shot. I think Kobe was on him. He rose...and fired a pass to an undefended Yao for an easy dunk. And it was a story. Horns literally sounded in celebration in the video. Francis had proven that he would pass....to a wide open teammate.

That is terrible. A point guard makes a basic pass to an open teammate and its noteworthy...because its Steve Francis.

Guy was just not a point guard. Not in a shoots too much way. He didnt have a feel for passing or making plays really. And often he wasnt even running their offense. He waved off so many plays in progress to go one on one it was hilarious to watch.

Not that he wasnt helping his team....I wanna say the year before they got yao they went like 2-27 without him. Feels about right...I think I said it many times back then.


Steve was....a short 2 guard who was his teams primary ball handler. Rose is....a scoring point guard. The difference is subtle but...clear.


Francis may have had the best ratio of passes to assists ever. Felt like half his passes were lobs to Cato or kick outs for a 3. He was way more of a ball stopper than Rose is. Rose was better at picking his spots and taking over even in his first season. Rose vs the Celtics his first year...game 1 would have been the best game Steve ever played under pressure(granted he never played many important games to begin with).

And how is he arguably top 5 in 02?



Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Mcgrady
Webber
Kg
Dirk
Kidd

Hes arguably better than 4 of them?

Out of this huge wall of text the main thing I gathered was

1. Steve Francis wasn't a true PG

2. Steve Francis was selfish

These are two things I can agree with. I think Rose IS more of a natural PG than Francis even though he's not an ideal PG to run a team and borders on combo guard or SG as well. I already specified his all around STATS were in the discussion for top 5. Kinda like how right now Blake Griffin has arguable top 5 stats, but not a top 5 game and isn't a top 5 player.

I listed the players that played back then and when I typed them up I realized just how good the league was. It made me sick lol because I watched the league a ton back then and took it for granted.

[Dave3]

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Mcgrady
Webber
Kg
Dirk
Kidd

Hes arguably better than 4 of them?
You forgot Carter, Iverson and Jordan. There's also Stojakovic, Malone, and Brand that have more than good cases against him.

[Clippersfan86]

You forgot Carter, Iverson and Jordan. There's also Stojakovic, Malone, and Brand that have more than good cases against him.

I listed all of them. Peja was not better than Francis.

[Dave3]

I listed all of them. Peja was not better than Francis.
Has a decent case. 21/5/3 on 48/42/88 on a team that already had Webber and Bibby. That's no joke. That's the point though, if someone like that has a case how is Rose in the comparison to him?

[NuggetsFan]

Did somebody just say Steve Francis was arguably a top 5 player? :oldlol: . You not sure you were the one who never watched him. That's like me 8 years from know telling somebody Kevin Love was a top 5 player this year.

Derrick Rose put up better numbers his rookie season on route to the playoffs than Francis did in his ONE trip there, I'm pretty sure anyways. Similar numbers atleast.

[Clippersfan86]

Has a decent case. 21/5/3 on 48/42/88 on a team that already had Webber and Bibby. That's no joke.

He finished above Francis on MVP voting too I believe but he wasn't a better player. Not saying Peja was a joke or wasn't all star worthy etc. 21, 7 and 6 from a PG is even less of a joke. Before Blaze posted his 9 paragraphs I elaborated on my top 5 comment to prevent exactly these types of responses.

Unfortunately if you make a claim about a player that's not the popular opinion people get hung up on that one thing and derail a thread. In this case it was my arguable top 5 OVERALL STATISTICS comment.

Main point here is had the league not been so dominant and top heavy at that time... Francis would of gotten a lot more praise and respect. I mean the top 20 players from that era are literally twice as good if not 3 times than the top 20 players right now.

[Dave3]

He finished above Francis on MVP voting too I believe but he wasn't a better player. Not saying Peja was a joke or wasn't all star worthy etc. 21, 7 and 6 from a PG is even less of a joke. Before Blaze posted his 9 paragraphs I elaborated on my top 5 comment to prevent exactly these types of responses.

Unfortunately if you make a claim about a player that's not the popular opinion people get hung up on that one thing and derail a thread. In this case it was my arguable top 5 OVERALL STATISTICS comment.

Main point here is had the league not been so dominant and top heavy at that time... Francis would of gotten a lot more praise and respect. I mean the top 20 players from that era are literally twice as good if not 3 times than the top 20 players right now.
Francis would barely crack top 15 today too. Rose is easily top 10 arguably top 7.

[Clippersfan86]

Did somebody just say Steve Francis was arguably a top 5 player? :oldlol: . You not sure you were the one who never watched him. That's like me 8 years from know telling somebody Kevin Love was a top 5 player this year.

Derrick Rose put up better numbers his rookie season on route to the playoffs than Francis did in his ONE trip there, I'm pretty sure anyways. Similar numbers atleast.

I've clarified my comment a few times now. You're a bit late man. Look at Francis' numbers in 01-02 and 04-05 and see for yourself if you think those are STATISTICALLY at least worthy of consideration of being top 5 when it comes to all around stats. Regardless that comment was such a small part of my point and when ranking players it comes down to subjective feelings.

I don't want this thread derailed with stupid things like MVP voting or where he ranked etc. I want us to go back to the main points of my thread.

1. Francis is forgotten and underrated
2. Francis had a lot of similarities to Rose
3. Comparing the two players at Francis' peak

[NuggetsFan]

Francis vs Russel Westbrook this year is a more valid comparison imo. Even than I'd probably go with Westbrook.

Didn't Francis miss a shit load of games in the year your talking about too?

[Pushxx]

Derrick Rose >>>> Francis

I loved watching Francis play but dude could never win a championship as a #1 option. It would never happen.

Rose easily could win a championship as your #1 guy.

[Clippersfan86]

Francis would barely crack top 15 today too. Rose is easily top 10 arguably top 7.

Another subjective comment Dave. The point of this thread isn't to place Francis in the current time or even compare him to the top 10 from back then. I made single comments related to this.... but my intention wasn't to make a conversation of it, just tied in with my opinion at the time.

I posted the stats. Between that and their skill set... I'd say they are at least comparable enough to where you can't accurately flat out say Francis is that much worse than Rose.

BTW guys it's hilarious. I was on a comparison of these two on Basketball Reference and the highest match in similarity between these two players was each other. I didn't even notice that before :oldlol: . So even according to metrics their game/combination of stats is as close as it gets. Basically this means their combination of stats has them as the closest comparison for each other in NBA history.

So I guess not a bad comparison afterall on my part despite what you guys say.

[Kblaze8855]

How would he be arguably top 5 numbers wise either? Or even orverall numbers(no doubt added as an additional qualifier so people with better numbers period can be excluded . Off the top of my head you had:

KG around 23/14/5
Webber 24/10/5
Duncan probably 23/13/3/3/1
Kobe at 25/6/5
Tmac probably 25/8/5


Of course still have Shaq and his 27/12/3/2 and Kidd doing like 16/10/7 and probably leading the league in steals.And AI doing 31/6/5 and leading the league in steals if Kidd didnt.

Francis wasnt arguably top 5 in reality, by numbers, or be numbers "overall". And having sat here and defended him for a good bit of the time...

People didnt think he was that good. He was popular and flashy. But he was not that good.

Rose gets hated on for shooting 45% taking 20 shots. Francis was shooting 40% taking 14 or 15.....

Francis was a guy fans liked to see highlights from but the first question asked was always "But can he be a leader? Can he be a pointguard?".

Guy wasnt nearly as highly regarded as it seems you think and it wasnt his "era" either. Marbury had people saying he was the best point and top 10.....and he was winning less than Francis.

[Clippersfan86]

How would he be arguably top 5 numbers wise either? Or even orverall numbers(no doubt added as an additional qualifier so people with better numbers period can be excluded . Off the top of my head you had:

KG around 23/14/5
Webber 24/10/5
Duncan probably 23/13/3/3/1
Kobe at 25/6/5
Tmac probably 25/8/5


Of course still have Shaq and his 27/12/3/2 and Kidd doing like 16/10/7 and probably leading the league in steals.And AI doing 31/6/5 and leading the league in steals if Kidd didnt.

Francis wasnt arguably top 5 in reality, by numbers, or be numbers "overall". And having sat here and defended him for a good bit of the time...

People didnt think he was that good. He was popular and flashy. But he was not that good.

Rose gets hated on for shooting 45% taking 20 shots. Francis was shooting 40% taking 14 or 15.....

Francis was a guy fans liked to see highlights from but the first question asked was always "But can he be a leader? Can he be a pointguard?".

Guy wasnt nearly as highly regarded as it seems you think and it wasnt his "era" either. Marbury had people saying he was the best point and top 10.....and he was winning less than Francis.

Top 10-15 is definitely more arguable and like I said after typing in here the top players of 00-03 ish... I definitely thought twice about saying arguably top 5 and I even said that. I was just telling you that when I did say arguably top 5 I meant statistically.

That being said I think your 9 paragraph or w/e it was post ripping up his game is unfair and not all true. I agree he was a bit of a ballhog and selfish player... but you are selling him short.

[Kblaze8855]

BTW guys it's hilarious. I was on a comparison of these two on Basketball Reference and the highest match in similarity between these two players was each other. I didn't even notice that before :oldlol: . So even according to metrics their game/combination of stats is as close as it gets. Basically this means their combination of stats has them as the closest comparison for each other in NBA history.

So I guess not a bad comparison afterall on my part despite what you guys say.

Hakeems closest is Dan Issel. Not a bad comparison huh? Really gotta think about that one dont we?

[Clippersfan86]

Hakeems closest is Dan Issel. Not a bad comparison huh? Really gotta think about that one dont we?

Using an extreme example to make a point much? Offensive rating doesn't work because Tyson Chandler has the best in the league by a large margin :rolleyes: . I just found it funny that they are a close match on their formula and I hadn't noticed before.

Anybody who watched both of these players would see clear and logical reasons to compare them.

[Clippersfan86]

BTW Blaze forgive me for not taking you and others seriously with comments like "I was a fan of Francis" or "I defended him" or "I watched him a lot" and following it up with lengthy posts ripping us his game to the max or saying Rose is tiers above a peak Francis.

If we ignore stats and go to the eye test alone Rose has more impact and is a slightly better player but Francis had a similar skill set and they had a ton of similarities in their attributes such as handles, finishing ability, athleticism, flashy game etc.

[NuggetsFan]

BTW Blaze forgive me for not taking you and others serious with comments like "I was a fan of Francis" or "I defended him" or "I watched him a lot" and following it up with lengthy threads ripping us his game to the max or saying Rose is tiers above a peak Francis.

If we ignore stats and go to the eye test alone Rose has more impact and is a slightly better player but Francis had a similar skill set and they had a ton of similarities in their attributes such as handles, finishing ability, athleticism, flashy game etc.

I'm deff in the group of Rose "easily". I actually have Francis Magic jersey too. Francis was just a guy whom you watched for entertainment. Wasn't a guy who you pleaded for on your team or you watched to see him win ball games.

Rose\Francis are similar in the fact that there both athletic scoring points. AB and Dirk are both big men that space the floor. Obviously ignore the gap of my example but just because two players have similar skill sets\abilities does not make it close. There's just little things that aren't going to show up on a score sheet. Rose's ability to actually run an offense way more competent than Francis ever did imo is one example of that.

There's a difference putting up 24\7\5 in 82 games while winning 62 of them on route to an MVP and putting up 21\7\6 in like 50ish games or however many he played while not being on a successful team like Rose's.

The year your using he didn't even play a full 82 games.

[Kblaze8855]

Top 10-15 is definitely more arguable and like I said after typing in here the top players of 00-03 ish... I definitely thought twice about saying arguably top 5 and I even said that. I was just telling you that when I did say arguably top 5 I meant statistically.

That being said I think your 9 paragraph or w/e it was post ripping up his game is unfair and not all true. I agree he was a bit of a ballhog and selfish player... but you are selling him short.

Had I said every word of it in 2002(and perhaps I did) it would have been seen as pro francis. People here..did not respect him. At all. I remember counting up their record without him when he had like...headaches or something...to show that he was infact helping the team.

But the same words 10 years later is me selling him short. Its funny what time does. Everyone in the past is underrated or overrated it seems....

Francis gets forgotten because he wasnt a significant player. He was a jumping jack who never accomplished anything and wasnt even the most highly thought of guard who never won anything.

He had nice dunks and crossovers. And scored a little...but not enough to just call him a really good scorer. That is pretty much the end of it. He was flashy. He wasnt much else. And he wasnt even a good scorer when he couldnt go one on one for 9 seconds. He actually shot worse when yao imprived largely because without just dribbling the air out of the ball he wasnt terribly effective. He wasnt the type to play well with others. He needed the ball too much.

On the Bulls now he might have put up 19 a game on 38% shooting asked to play Roses role. While pissing off Boozer/Deng. Francis is a guy you get to fill seats but get rid of when you wanna get serious about winning.

Rose is a guy you build around. Them both being athletic and like 6'3'' doesnt make it a reasonable question.

And im not even saying you are the first to ask it. But two people thinking something doesnt make it reasonable either.

Francis was a fan voted in all star who looked for respect and didnt find much of it before he fell off. Rose is the MVP and just had coaches in the playoffs comparing him to Michael Jordan.

Francis isnt remembered for a reason.

There is nothing to remember but highlights.

[Clippersfan86]

I'm deff in the group of Rose "easily". I actually have Francis Magic jersey too. Francis was just a guy whom you watched for entertainment. Wasn't a guy who you pleaded for on your team or you watched to see him win ball games.

Rose\Francis are similar in the fact that there both athletic scoring points. AB and Dirk are both big men that space the floor. Obviously ignore the gap of my example but just because two players have similar skill sets\abilities does not make it close. There's just little things that aren't going to show up on a score sheet. Rose's ability to actually run an offense way more competent than Francis ever did imo is one example of that.

There's a difference putting up 24\7\5 in 82 games while winning 62 of them on route to an MVP and putting up 21\7\6 in like 50ish games or however many he played while not being on a successful team like Rose's.

The year your using he didn't even play a full 82 games.

Then take his 04-05 season where he put up 21, 6 and 7 on improved shooting from 01-02. All I'm saying is you guys using Rose's team success to compare is completely unfair when you factor in a few things. I'll give some examples.

1. Francis missed the playoffs with 38 wins in a very tough western conference in 01-02. Derrick Rose only got 41 wins his first 2 years and that was in a MUCH MUCH weaker conference than what Francis had to deal with.

2. Using the Bulls of this year as an example is just wrong. You're comparing a top 15 maybe top 10 statistically defensive team of all time who has guys like Boozer, Deng, Noah and solid depth to a Rockets team CARRIED by Francis and Mobley and depth similar to what young Lebron had to deal with?

I agree Francis should of at least been in the playoffs more and SHOULD be criticized for this... but people are acting like Rose carried a bad team like KG or T-Mac when in fact nothing close to those circumstances applied.

[Kblaze8855]

BTW Blaze forgive me for not taking you and others seriously with comments like "I was a fan of Francis" or "I defended him" or "I watched him a lot" and following it up with lengthy posts ripping us his game to the max or saying Rose is tiers above a peak Francis.

I didnt say I was a fan. I said I defended him. And I did.

And I didnt rip up his game to the max. I said it was seen as surprising whenever he made a good pass. I said people didnt want him on their team. Little I said can even be refuted. I sat on ISH reading the same things for years. Ive been here since 01. I saw him enter his prime on here back when I was posting more than I do now. I was here discussing Yao before the draft lottery to decide where he would go....and reading posts with people wishing him well for going to play with Steve Francis.

The Rockets were among the most televised teams for years. In the 2000s. This isnt 1961. This was not long ago. Any basketball fan over like...20....saw Steve Francis.

I remember posting in the Rockets "Fam" topic with a kid named "Thereason" who I helped learn to make videos...so he could make them on Francis and Yao. He made a site with a forum called clutch city I may have been the first member on.

You have nothing to teach me about Steve Francis. I watched his entire career. I said when what I say now. Only then...I was seen as a bit of an apologist.

Im not concerned if you take it serious or not. I watched the guy. A lot.

[Clippersfan86]

Had I said every word of it in 2002(and perhaps I did) it would have been seen as pro francis. People here..did not respect him. At all. I remember counting up their record without him when he had like...headaches or something...to show that he was infact helping the team.

But the same words 10 years later is me selling him short. Its funny what time does. Everyone in the past is underrated or overrated it seems....

Francis gets forgotten because he wasnt a significant player. He was a jumping jack who never accomplished anything and wasnt even the most highly thought of guard who never won anything.

He had nice dunks and crossovers. And scored a little...but not enough to just call him a really good scorer. That is pretty much the end of it. He was flashy. He wasnt much else. And he wasnt even a good scorer when he couldnt go one on one for 9 seconds. He actually shot worse when yao imprived largely because without just dribbling the air out of the ball he wasnt terribly effective. He wasnt the type to play well with others. He needed the ball too much.

On the Bulls now he might have put up 19 a game on 38% shooting asked to play Roses role. While pissing off Boozer/Deng. Francis is a guy you get to fill seats but get rid of when you wanna get serious about winning.

Rose is a guy you build around. Them both being athletic and like 6'3'' doesnt make it a reasonable question.

And im not even saying you are the first to ask it. But two people thinking something doesnt make it reasonable either.

Francis was a fan voted in all star who looked for respect and didnt find much of it before he fell off. Rose is the MVP and just had coaches in the playoffs comparing him to Michael Jordan.

Francis isnt remembered for a reason.

There is nothing to remember but highlights.

There's so much I disagree with in this post it's not even worth responding to. I don't feel like going on for hours with you about something almost entirely subjective. I agreed Francis was selfish a lot of the time. I've made concessions on this topic and even admitted I got ahead of myself a bit but you and Nuggets are degrading him to a level I've never seen and it's sad.

Basically he was just a flashy player, who accomplished nothing, was overrated, was selfish and was unwanted by everyone. :facepalm . Ironically a lot of what you accuse Francis of... is similar to the criticisms Rose has received. Holds the ball too long, forces shots, isn't an efficient scorer, isn't a great playmaker/passer, needs the ball too often.

I mean the main difference between the two is character and work ethic in which Rose kills Francis on.... but in terms of the flaws in their game you are pointing out... they have similar strengths/weaknesses.

Francis never had a squad like Rose does and I'm 100 percent sure that if he did... he would have at least mostly the same success. Maybe a little less but he absolutely would be getting to the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs for sure. I think many including yourself in this thread make a huge mistake in not acknowledging that the team has more to do with the stats you put up and awards you get than your own game. Even role players in this league in the right system with the right team around them can be all stars. People act like players control their own careers and there are good and bad players. All NBA players are capable, though some more than others.

Rose never had to deal with the squads Francis did and we can go back and forth on the comparing of teams and support they had because it's a HUGE discrepancy.

[Kblaze8855]

Using the Bulls of this year as an example is just wrong. You're comparing a top 15 maybe top 10 statistically defensive team of all time who has guys like Boozer, Deng, Noah and solid depth to a Rockets team CARRIED by Francis and Mobley and depth similar to what young Lebron had to deal with?

There were...I believe...58 games without either Noah or Boozer or neither. The Bulls were on like a 60 win pace in those games. One month Kurt Thomas was playing like 30 minutes a night and we were on a 61 win pace.

If the actually had Noah and Boozer healthy for more than half the season they may have won 70 games last year.

The Bulls were not winning with talent. They were winning with defense and Rose.

[G-train]

There were...I believe...58 games without either Noah or Boozer or neither. The Bulls were on like a 60 win pace in those games. One month Kurt Thomas was playing like 30 minutes a night and we were on a 61 win pace.

If the actually had Noah and Boozer healthy for more than half the season they may have won 70 games last year.

The Bulls were not winning with talent. They were winning with defense and Rose.

If they actually had more Boozer they may have won 55 games.

:lol

Not sure if I'm serious or not.
Pretty rare that a 70 win team goes in 5 games in the ECF.

[Clippersfan86]

There were...I believe...58 games without either Noah or Boozer or neither. The Bulls were on like a 60 win pace in those games. One month Kurt Thomas was playing like 30 minutes a night and we were on a 61 win pace.

If the actually had Noah and Boozer healthy for more than half the season they may have won 70 games last year.

The Bulls were not winning with talent. They were winning with defense and Rose.

You may be forgetting a guy named Luol Deng. Arguably the most underrated player in the NBA. I understand Noah was in and out of the lineup this year and Boozer didn't get back till February or March. Doesn't change the fact that as a team the Bulls were beyond superior to the Rockets. You aren't going to be winning anything with Francis+Mobley as your only two consistently competent players. Sure Yao came along but by then Francis had started to catch the injury bug and was traded 2 seasons after Yao got there.

One thing I really don't appreciate you doing is painting Francis out to be a bad teammate and person. Francis was one of the most likable guys in the NBA and singlehandedly made Yao feel at home in the USA. Yao and Mobley would tell you he was the greatest teammate they ever had. He's also always been very good to his fans and willing to help other players out around the NBA.

Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Tracy McGrady, Grant Hill, and many others have gone on record to say Steve Francis was a "great" teammate, who played with a lot of heart and passion.

If you watched him so much you wouldn't fabricate crap like this.

[Kblaze8855]

If we are degrading him to a rate you have never seen then perhaps its you who were not really into the game or discussing it when Francis was major.

Steve Francis was always hated on. Always. And a lot more than im doing.

There were people here who went into every Rockets topic to defend him. It was said he would hold Yao back. In fact...this is from the front page of ISH 8 years ago....



Moving the Franchise

We talked a little last week about Steve Francis perhaps not being the best point guard possible to play with Yao Ming. I suggested getting Mark Jackson some more time at the point and playing Francis at the 2, but now, I don't know if that's good enough. The best thing for the Rockets might be to have The Franchise playing at the 2... for the Shanghai Sharks.

According to Jeff Van Gundy (and it's hard to believe he'd make something like this up), The Franchise decided to attend the Super Bowl rather than head to Phoenix to compete with his teammates against the Phoenix Suns. Just to be clear, this was not an exhibition game. It counted in the standings, just like 81 others on the Rockets schedule. And the rest of his teammates were there. They all apparently own TVs and VCRs, perhaps even a Tivo, and decided they could catch the game later. Or maybe they decided to read about it the next day in USA Today. Or maybe they thought honoring their commitment to the team and playing against Phoenix was a little more important. Who knows with these crazy youngsters today?

This is unacceptable. Steve Francis is incredibly talented, and he deserved (past tense) every opportunity to make things work with Yao. But it never really did. And this little incident should have burned up his last chance. He's got to go. If you're a Rockets fan, can you forgive him for this? If the Rockets were my team, I'd be showing up at the Toyota Center and Steve Francis would be hearing some very unflattering things about his mother.


If you never heard Steve Francis hated on a lot more than im doing you just didnt listen out for it.

I remember talking about when he dunked on Jahadi White when I lived in DC and people didnt even **** with him then. And that is near Maryland. One place you would figure he would be repped.

Steve Francis was popular...with kids...and teens. And exciting for everyone. He was not a highly regarded player.

[Clippersfan86]

If you feel it's so definitive why do you have to resort to making things up like implying he was a bad teammate and nobody wanted him on the team or to play with him? Like I posted above... he was actually well liked/received when he was in his peak years. I mean dude he was traded for a prime Tracy McGrady. If that doesn't tell you what kind of talent he was I don't know what to say. Sure Mobley was included in the deal... but Francis was obviously the main selling point.

[Dave3]

If you feel it's so definitive why do you have to resort to making things up like implying he was a bad teammate and nobody wanted him on the team or to play with him? Like I posted above... he was actually well liked/received when he was in his peak years. I mean dude he was traded for a prime Tracy McGrady.
And a way past his prime Alonzo Mourning who didn't play a single game for the Raptors was traded for a prime Vince Carter. Lamar Odom and Caron Butler were traded for an almost prime Shaq. Who you're traded for means nothing. When the team trading the star has known issues, they're going to get ripped off.

[Kblaze8855]

Where did I call him a bad person? I said he was a ball hog. I didnt say his teammates hated him. We have all seen Francis on Yaos back running around.

And if I watched him?

Where do you think I was exactly? Ive been an NBA fan all my life. I just stopped....for 4-5 years? Despite the fact I probably posted here 40 thousand times back then?

I watched Steve Francis. A lot. Everyone watched him a lot once Yao arrived and they have 30+ games a season on nationally.

You can say otherwise all you like but watching Steve Francis doesnt make you think highly of him. I sat here and posted with hundreds of people who made that very obvious at the time.

Not many of us left...but me...gobb...Johnny Sic...few of us would remember. I sat on ISH and discussed Steve Francis damn near 10 years ago while watching him live.

This is the 2000s we are talking about. It wasnt that long ago.....

I was collecting clips of him in like the 01 season. There are still Steve Francis mixes on youtube that are just shuffled clips from tapes I personally ripped in DC. I was posting Steve Francis mixes back when we had to use yousendit and send it to people one at a time on AIM...

Steve Francis is not a mystery to me. At all.

[Clippersfan86]

BTW Francis had a degenerative knee condition just like Brandon Roy. As I said earlier his injury problems had more to do with his decline than his supposed bad attitude, selfish play or not being a natural PG.

[Clippersfan86]

Where did I call him a bad person? I said he was a ball hog. I didnt say his teammates hated him. We have all seen Francis on Yaos back running around.

And if I watched him?

Where do you think I was exactly? Ive been an NBA fan all my life. I just stopped....for 4-5 years? Despite the fact I probably posted here 40 thousand times back then?

I watched Steve Francis. A lot. Everyone watched him a lot once Yao arrived and they have 30+ games a season on nationally.

You can say otherwise all you like but watching Steve Francis doesnt make you think highly of him. I sat here and posted with hundreds of people who made that very obvious at the time.

Not many of us left...but me...gobb...Johnny Sic...few of us would remember. I sat on ISH and discussed Steve Francis damn near 10 years ago while watching him live.

This is the 2000s we are talking about. It wasnt that long ago.....

I was collecting clips of him in like the 01 season. There are still Steve Francis mixes on youtube that are just shuffled clips from tapes I personally ripped in DC.

Steve Francis is not a mystery to me. At all.

I'm not trying to say you actually didn't watch. My comments like "Well you must not have watched if..." are mostly just me being surprised by what I'm reading. I respect you as a poster and know you're a knowledgeable guy. I'm just surprised that someone would claim they are taking it easy on a player and write such a big block of text on their flaws and why they basically weren't that good of a player.

It's like you're trying to convince me that the guy wasn't much more than a role player or something.

[hoop_soup]

Generally,the more hate threads a player gets, the better that player is. The OP may claim this isn't a hate thread, but everyone can clearly see what the OP is trying to do. I enjoy threads like these, it makes me realize how special a player Rose is, and I'm thankful he's on my favorite team. I at first got offended by these types of threads, but then realized, oh yeah, this is what its like to have a great player on your team, I remember now. So bring on the hate, bring on the doubters, the more the better :cheers:

[Clippersfan86]

Generally,the more hate threads a player gets, the better that player is. The OP may claim this isn't a hate thread, but everyone can clearly see what the OP is trying to do. I enjoy threads like these, it makes me realize how special a player Rose is, and I'm thankful he's on my favorite team. I at first got offended by these types of threads, but then realized, oh yeah, this is what its like to have a great player on your team, I remember now. So bring on the hate, bring on the doubters, the more the better :cheers:

:rolleyes:

[Kblaze8855]

I'm not trying to say you actually didn't watch. My comments like "Well you must not have watched if..." are mostly just me being surprised by what I'm reading. I respect you as a poster and know you're a knowledgeable guy. I'm just surprised that someone would claim they are taking it easy on a player and write such a big block of text on their flaws and why they basically weren't that good of a player.

It's like you're trying to convince me that the guy wasn't much more than a role player or something.


Big block of text? Most of it was just the first thing that came to mind when I thought about him....watching the DVD on Yao where everyone made abig deal about how he completed a pass. You should know I write more on...much more petty issues. I wasnt gonna say "People were shocked to see he could pass" and not put it in context.

And I really dont know how you are surprised to see that people who watched him have negative things to say. As I showed you...the ISH front page was saying(jokingly no doubt) that he shouldnt even be in the NBA.


People HATED Steve Francis. Hated. Not disliked. Hated. Steve Francis was for some people everything wrong with the NBA at the time from a gameplay point of view. Dribble around all day, shoot 40%, score 18 points, make sports center with a crossover...and lose.

I was often asking what he did that was so terrible. Asking people how someone who shoots 14 times a game is a chucker. And asking why his teamwent from average to nearly the worst ever(2-22 or whatever it was...over a season...pretty close to the worst ever) without him if his style hurt the team.

Fact is...I WAS kinda on Steves side for years. But I was usually countering the hate he saw as I often do for hated on players.

Ive never been that high on him though. I think you think people thought he was better than they did.

[Clippersfan86]

I'm not going to take forum posters hating a player seriously. Especially an all star caliber one like Steve Francis. He was a very good all around player and I don't think it's cool to make it sound like dude was a role player and hated by everyone. I think the main negative thought of Houston fans was that he wasn't the type who could "carry" a team and I agree with them. Rose is far more suitable to impact a game enough to carry a team.

I just think much of the hate is misplaced. Houston didn't give him much to work with.

[Kblaze8855]

Lot of that is just you hearing what you want. Nothing I said suggests he was a role player. But he was among the more hated on players in the league. At least by fans not talking about highlights. When every discussion on you starts with "Yes hes exciting...but..." you arent that good. Every time he had a good number of assists...its news. Topics would be made by francis fans pointing it out.

He wasnt a guy people were just...really blown away by. He was popular. And in houston. So he was known. But he wasnt some highly regarded player.

You are way way waaaaaaaay more off than I am when you are talking about arguably top 5(even if later modified to be by the numbers...which still doesnt make sense to me). Im doing the same thing I was at the time. Im not hating him or loving him. Just responding to things said about him that I find hard to justify.

[B-Low]

Francis vs Russel Westbrook this year is a more valid comparison imo.

I actually said this exact same thing to my friends/dad while I was watching the playoffs this year. I forget which series it was but Westbrook completely lost his mind and started throwing tantrums to the point that he had to sit out in the clutch, and the announcers were saying that he has all the talent and athleticism in the world, but he's overemotional and plays with 100% heart and 0% brain and that might end up keeping him from being a top player. That's exactly what the case was with Francis.

They even have a similar playing style except Russel doesn't dribble QUITE as much as Francis.

In the debate of Francis vs. Westbrook, I'd take Steve...but again even as the board's biggest Francis fan I can't justifiably say that he was AS GOOD overall as Rose in regards to being a complete player.

[Hondo]

This seems like a thread created to hate on Derrick Rose. Much like the Steve Nash-Mark Price comparison threads after he won the MVP.

Price and Francis just are not on the same level

[D.J.]

Francis was a very talented and athletic individual player. But he was an almost identical player to Stephon Marbury. His stats were pretty much empty. Francis was putting up 20/6/6 on garbage teams and it got Houston no where. He was popular with casual NBA fans, but not so much with fans that understood the game or analysts/coaches.

Francis was a guy that would dribble for 16 out of 24 seconds, struggle to shoot 40% from the field, and make boneheaded plays. He played with heart, but he was not a smart player, nor was he an efficient player.

The one thing Francis and Marbury have in common is no matter what numbers they put up, they're not going to lead their teams to anything better than a low seed playoff team. Rose has already exceeded that and won league MVP.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Everyone that's seen me post in here knows Francis is my favorite player of all time, but even I gotta say Rose is better.

I do think Francis was more athletic, but as a player Rose has him beat. Francis lacked the mentality needed to be an MVP type player. He was all heart and no brain on the court. Loved his courage, loved his intensity, loved his desire to entertain, loved how much he cared about his teammates (hell the dude tried to fight AMARE because he disrespected Yao), but his head just never said "be the best" like Rose's seems to. His temper and heart got the better of him too often.

It's a shame too cuz I really think if that Rockets team from 02-03 had stayed together under Rudy T they coulda ended up as one of the better West teams. JVG killed Francis.

Good post, this is my opinion on the matter as well. Francis made a case to to entertain as well as to win. It worked both-ways for him quite often, but sometimes it crossed paths and you could see his immaturity come out on the court because of that. With Rose, the mentality and heart to win was always first.

[B-Low]

Good post, this is my opinion on the matter as well. Francis made a case to to entertain as well as to win. It worked both-ways for him quite often, but sometimes it crossed paths and you could see his immaturity come out on the court because of that. With Rose, the mentality and heart to win was always first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJIoDdxByoY

Yep this play is a good example. I remember watching that game and the Magic were down the whole time. Francis just said F it and did that bounce alley oop dunk to send the fans home with something to talk about since it wasn't a competitive game at all. Was it legal? HELL NO. Was it necessary? Nope. Did they win? Nope. But I guarantee the only thing those fans remember about that game was that dunk.

And like you said, his biggest strengths and the things that made him a popular player and a 3 time all star game starter, his heart and desire to entertain, were also his biggest flaw as a player.

[Kblaze8855]

Nash/Price is a much more legit argument. Price and he have both similar skill sets and similar results on teams in their primes. Price was an all nba first team guy over the likes of Stockton, KJ, and Hardaway. He was getting MVP talk himself when he came back to a team that won like 35 games without him and they won near 60 when he came back.

. But his teams played through the post as much as in the pick and roll...and at his peak he had Brandon eating up 20 minutes a night at the point putting him off the ball since Brandon wasnt a shooter and couldnt defend anyone over 6 feet tall. Plus Fratello came along and slowed them down too. Price was in ways like Dallas Nash. He just never got his chance to expand like Nash got. Nash didnt just get 2 times better at 30. He got placed into the perfect situaiton. Price was never in that as far as showing his potential.

[HylianNightmare]

Nash/Price is a much more legit argument. Price and he have both similar skill sets and similar results on teams in their primes. Price was an all nba first team guy over the likes of Stockton, KJ, and Hardaway. He was getting MVP talk himself when he came back to a team that won like 35 games without him and they won near 60 when he came back. But his teams played through the post as much as in the pick and roll...and at his peak he had Brandon eating up 20 minutes a night at the point putting him off the ball since Brandon wasnt a shooter and couldnt defend anyone over 6 feet tall. Plus Fratello came along and slowed them down too. Price was in ways like Dallas Nash. He just never got his chance to expand like Nash got. Nash didnt just get 2 times better at 30. He got placed into the perfect situaiton. Price was never in that as far as showing his potential.


so why don't you make a thread?