Why is Magic rated so high?

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem was a Finals champion and its MVP and was a multiple MVP winner before he even heard of Magic Johnson.

Yet, Magic never won anything without Kareem in the middle.

So my question is,

why doesn't Magic get downgraded for playing with the GOAT?

[Bigsmoke]

Kareem had Oscar Robertson on his squad when he won his only ring without Magic tho'

[eliteballer]

Why dont you check Kareems stats for Magic's last two titles and get back to me on that.

[SuperPippen]

Kareem was a Finals champion and its MVP and was a multiple MVP winner before he even heard of Magic Johnson.

Yet, Magic never won anything without Kareem in the middle.

So my question is,

why doesn't Magic get downgraded for playing with the GOAT?


Magic played with Michael Jordan? That's news to me.

Anyway, Magic's extraordinarily high peak as a player and his consistency, impact, uniqueness, accolades, are just some of the reasons that he's consistently rated as highly as he is.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Why dont you check Kareems stats for Magic's last two titles and get back to me on that.

:applause:

[catch24]

Some of these clowns need to start using Kobe avatars so we can differentiate who the real Lakers fans are. Only a true stan would ask/make a thread like this.

[Dave3]

Some of these clowns need to start using Kobe avatars so we can differentiate who the real Lakers fans are. Only a true stan would ask/make a thread like this.
:oldlol: The same way Jeff modifies their title or w/e he should be able to modify their avatars.

[OmniStrife]

Some of these clowns need to start using Kobe avatars so we can differentiate who the real Lakers fans are. Only a true stan would ask/make a thread like this.
True words, my man.

It's sad how they would cover their own team (or not) in shit just to glorify one player.

[Jacks3]

It is pretty funny how nobody ever downgrades Magic for not being the best player on his team for his first three rings and yet Kobe is consistently hated on because he was 1B to Shaq for three straight titles and another Finals performance over 5 seasons. Plus, Magic played with Kareem/McAdoo/Cooper/Worthy/Rambis/Mychal Thompshon/Vlade/Scott/A.C Green etc for his entire career and you never hear him downgraded for that, yet Kobe has played with a entire 2 All-Stars over the course of his prime years (00-10) and people are always downgrading his rings for playing on "stacked" teams.

I guess the amazing Odom and Bynum's amazing 6 pts/4rbs average from 08-10 do make a big difference.:lol :lol :lol :lol

[RRR3]

It is pretty funny how nobody ever downgrades Magic for not being the best player on his team for his first three rings and yet Kobe is consistently hated on because he was 1B to Shaq for three straight titles and another Finals performance over 5 seasons. Plus, Magic played with Kareem/McAdoo/Cooper/Worthy/Rambis/Mychal Thompshon/Vlade/Scott/A.C Green etc for his entire career and you never hear him downgraded for that, yet Kobe has played with a entire 2 All-Stars over the course of his prime years (00-10) and people are always downgrading his rings for playing on "stacked" teams.

I guess the amazing Odom and Bynum's amazing 6 pts/4rbs average from 08-10 do make a big difference.:lol :lol :lol :lol

Magic doesn't have an incredibly irritating fanbase who try to advertise him incessantly to the general public and overrate the shit out of him. That's probably it.

[Heavincent]

Magic doesn't have an incredibly irritating fanbase who try to advertise him incessantly to the general public and overrate the shit out of him. That's probably it.

And Magic also doesn't have a big group of people that underrate the shit out of him and disregard everything he has done.

Besides, what does that have do with anything Jacks said? :confusedshrug:

[Jacks3]

True, he doesn't have a incredibly irritating and retarded hate-group that consistently refuses to give him credit and consistently throws up double-standards and ridiculous hypocritical criticism. Very true.

[chips93]

:blah

wow how did i not put you on ignore sooner

*adds jacks3 to ignore list*

aaahhhhhh. feels better already :D

[Jacks3]

oh noes

[RRR3]

And Magic also doesn't have a big group of people that underrate the shit out of him and disregard everything he has done.

Besides, what does that have do with anything Jacks said? :confusedshrug:

Who are we talking about here? That guy on the Heat? No? Oh. But seriously, to answer your question: why do you think that group exists? Because of the Kobe stans...people get tired of hearing about him and get angry and discredit him to try to get his stans to shut up.

[G-train]

Magic has a reputation as a likeable, selfless player.
I am a Kobe fan but the same cannot be said as they are two very different players/people whose played/acted in 2 very different ways as a 'second best player'.
That's the general perception.

[Heavincent]

But seriously, to answer your question: why do you think that group exists? Because of the Kobe stans...people get tired of hearing about him and get angry and discredit him to try to get his stans to shut up.

That's just giving them ammunition.

By the way, that didn't answer my question. It still has nothing to do with what Jacks posted. He's right, the way people try to act like Kobe's first three rings have little to no significance is ridiculous. And Jesus Christ, can people please stop overrating the shit out of Pau Gasol in a pathetic attempt to discredit Kobe? It's just silly how much people overrate Pau these days.

[RRR3]

That's just giving them ammunition.

By the way, that didn't answer my question. It still has nothing to do with what Jacks posted. He's right, the way people try to act like Kobe's first three rings have little to no significance is ridiculous. And Jesus Christ, can people please stop overrating the shit out of Pau Gasol in a pathetic attempt to discredit Kobe? It's just silly how much people overrate Pau these days.

Jacks was wondering why people don't hate on Magic in the way they hate on Kobe. That was my answer. Who said anything about Pau Gasol? :confusedshrug:

[Jacks3]

Pau before Bryant:

--1 All-Star team in 8 seasons
--0 All-NBA Teams
--0 MVP votes
--Swept in the playoffs three straight years. 0-12. :oldlol:
--Not even considered top 5 at his own position

The G.O.A.T!

[knickswin]

I wasn't around during the 80s to watch him regularly, so my opinion is incomplete, but I kind of could understand a Magic-is-overrated argument. Kareem and Worthy were real good players and their supporting cast was always top notch. If I had to pick, I would probably take Larry Bird over Magic.

[RRR3]

Pau before Bryant:

--1 All-Star team in 8 seasons
--0 All-NBA Teams
--0 MVP votes
--Swept in the playoffs three straight years. 0-12. :oldlol:
--Not even considered top 5 at his own position

The G.O.A.T!

Most of his lack of accolades were due to him playing on Memphis as opposed to LA (a HUGE media market) so he got less recognition, not because he was necessarily a worse player.

[Heavincent]

Jacks was wondering why people don't hate on Magic in the way they hate on Kobe. That was my answer. Who said anything about Pau Gasol? :confusedshrug:

http://msfstat.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/shawn-marion.gif

[RRR3]

http://msfstat.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/shawn-marion.gif
Yes, that's Shawn Marion. What's your point and how is that relevant to this discussion? Or do you think Shawn Marion has too many stans or too many haters? :confusedshrug:

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem had Oscar Robertson on his squad when he won his only ring without Magic tho'
Robertson was on his last legs.

So again, why does Magic get a pass for playing with the GOAT and his all time status never suffers?

[The Iron Fist]

Why dont you check Kareems stats for Magic's last two titles and get back to me on that.


Sure,


2 finals wins.







Now, can you tell me Magics stats when Kareem left?

[Heavincent]

Yes, that's Shawn Marion. What's your point and how is that relevant to this discussion? Or do you think Shawn Marion has too many stans or too many haters? :confusedshrug:

I don't know.

[The Iron Fist]

Magic played with Michael Jordan? That's news to me.

Anyway, Magic's extraordinarily high peak as a player and his consistency, impact, uniqueness, accolades, are just some of the reasons that he's consistently rated as highly as he is.


So none of that had to do with playing with the GOAT and other Hall of Fame players?

Or does he just get a pass because of his personality?

Last I checked, Magic never won a thing once Kareem left.

Surely this supposedly top 5 player of all time could have won without the GOAT in the middle.

[RRR3]

I don't know.
Then why did you post it? :confusedshrug:

[The Iron Fist]

Some of these clowns need to start using Kobe avatars so we can differentiate who the real Lakers fans are. Only a true stan would ask/make a thread like this.


Instead of acting like a little bitch,

answer the question.

[chips93]

pau gasol may be overrated as an individual player, but he fits on perfectly with kobe and the lakers. there might be 20 players better than pau, but most of them would be less valuable to the lakers than pau.

either way, magic is a little overrated imo, due to playing with jabbar, as well as his flashy style.

[Heavincent]

Then why did you post it? :confusedshrug:

Because I lost the argument and had nothing else to post. I don't take this internet stuff that seriously you know.

What I said about Kobe still stands though.

[eliteballer]

Sure,


2 finals wins.







Now, can you tell me Magics stats when Kareem left?

1990: Best Record in the League
1991: Finals Appearance

[The Iron Fist]

It is pretty funny how nobody ever downgrades Magic for not being the best player on his team for his first three rings and yet Kobe is consistently hated on because he was 1B to Shaq for three straight titles and another Finals performance over 5 seasons. Plus, Magic played with Kareem/McAdoo/Cooper/Worthy/Rambis/Mychal Thompshon/Vlade/Scott/A.C Green etc for his entire career and you never hear him downgraded for that, yet Kobe has played with a entire 2 All-Stars over the course of his prime years (00-10) and people are always downgrading his rings for playing on "stacked" teams.

I guess the amazing Odom and Bynum's amazing 6 pts/4rbs average from 08-10 do make a big difference.:lol :lol :lol :lol


"But Kobe hurt my feelings and thats why I don't acknowledge his achievements like other stars"


Basically what it comes down to.

[The Iron Fist]

1990: Best Record in the League
1991: Finals Appearance

and 0 finals wins.


Thanks. You just proved my point.

[RRR3]

Because I lost the argument and had nothing else to post. I don't take this internet stuff that seriously you know.

What I said about Kobe still stands though.
What, that he has haters? Of course. Most great players do. He's also a guy who has played (through no fault of his own) in a time where the media overblows everything star players say and do, so everything he does is magnified as opposed to someone who played in the 60's/70's. Plus, he was accused (faslely, I might add, but some disagree with me here) of rape, which led to a lot of people losing respect for him. He has recovered most of it, but some of that vitriol is bound to remain.

[Jacks3]

Most of his lack of accolades were due to him playing on Memphis as opposed to LA (a HUGE media market) so he got less recognition, not because he was necessarily a worse player.
:oldlol:

Lame excuse. You don't get 0 All-NBA teams, 0 MVP votes, get swept three straight years, and only 1 All-Star team in 8 seasons because of "small market". He got them because he simply wasn't that good.

Now I hear people suggesting he's a "dominant" big-man and all that garbage.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Jacks3]

"But Kobe hurt my feelings and thats why I don't acknowledge his achievements like other stars"


Basically what it comes down to.
Exactly. If he was more likable and charming as a person,or if he didn't have all the off-court controversies, he'd probably be thought of higher/ranked higher even though he'd be the same exact player. :roll:

It's just retarded.

[catch24]

Instead of acting like a little bitch,

answer the question.

You asked a rhetorical question; this is just your typical straw-man argument made by your ilk.

Why did Magic lead his team without Kareem, scoring 40+ points, as a rookie, in game 6 of the Finals? Why did Jordan's Bulls win 55 w/o him, just two less than the year previously? Why were the Lakers just 12-11 (.521%) when Shaq was injured during the their 3-peat? When Kobe was injured, the Lakers regular season record was 25-7 (.78%). The Lakers' entire regular-season record during their three-peats was 181-65 (.735%), which is a lower record than when Kobe wasn’t playing. Why was that? Why hasn't Kobe won without a Big man?

You're a moron, stop wasting this forums bandwidth.

[Heavincent]

What, that he has haters? Of course. Most great players do. He's also a guy who has played (through no fault of his own) in a time where the media overblows everything star players say and do, so everything he does is magnified as opposed to someone who played in the 60's/70's. Plus, he was accused (faslely, I might add, but some disagree with me here) of rape, which led to a lot of people losing respect for him. He has recovered most of it, but some of that vitriol is bound to remain.

Anybody that disregards Kobe because of those reasons is retarded.

It's not so much that they hate him, it's that they refuse to admit that he is a legend and one of the greatest players of all time. I'm a Jets fan, so I hate the Patriots, but I can't deny that Tom Brady is one of the greatest QB's of all time. It would be nice if Kobe haters had the same outlook on him as I do on Tom Brady.

[RRR3]

:oldlol:

Lame excuse. You don't get 0 All-NBA teams, 0 MVP votes, get swept three straight years, and only 1 All-Star team in 8 seasons because of "small market". He got them because he simply wasn't that good.

Now I hear people suggesting he's a "dominant" big-man and all that garbage.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Pau Gasol has still never got any MVP votes according to basketball-reference. And that's not an "excuse" he hasn't become a better player, he may be more productive because he gets more open looks since he is the second option in LA as opposed to being the first option in Memphis, but I don't think he's any better of a player, at least not to the degree you are implying. And sure, some may overrate him, and yes, he's not a "dominant all-time great big man", but he is a future Hall of Famer (definitely not first ballot, though).

[The Iron Fist]

[QUOTE=catch24]You asked a rhetorical question; this is just your typical straw-man argument made by your ilk.

Why did Magic lead his team without Kareem, scoring 40+ points, as a rookie, in game 6 of the Finals? Why did Jordan's Bulls win 55 w/o him, just two less than the year previously? Why were the Lakers just 12-11 (.521%) when Shaq was injured during the their 3-peat? When Kobe was injured, the Lakers regular season record was 25-7 (.78%). The Lakers' entire regular-season record during their three-peats was 181-65 (.735%), which is a lower record than when Kobe wasn

[RRR3]

Anybody that disregards Kobe because of those reasons is retarded.

It's not so much that they hate him, it's that they refuse to admit that he is a legend and one of the greatest players of all time. I'm a Jets fan, so I hate the Patriots, but I can't deny that Tom Brady is one of the greatest QB's of all time. It would be nice if Kobe haters had the same outlook on him as I do on Tom Brady.
Lots of things would be nice, but don't happen. In a perfect world, no one would hate any player (unless they actually did do something horrible) but that's the way things are. Kobe has regained a lot of his former popularity in recent years anyways.

[Jacks3]

, but I don't think he's any better of a player, at least not to the degree you are implying. A
Degree I'm implying? These things have been said by tons of people!

These idiots have called Pau the best on the Lakers, a "dominant" big, the best player at his position, the real MVP of the Lakers etc etc.

Shit is hilarious. :roll:

[RRR3]

Degree I'm implying? These things have been said by tons of people!

These idiots have called Pau the best on the Lakers, a "dominant" big, the best player at his position, the real MVP of the Lakers etc etc.

Shit is hilarious. :roll:

I'll address each of these claims...
"Pau the best on the Lakers"-Trolling and/or delusional
"a dominant big"-Influenced by the lack of great big men in today's NBA, overrating him, or a Pau stan
"best player at his position"-putting too much value on championships, Pau stans, ignorant, etc.
"The real MVP of the Lakers"-Trolling and/or delusional

[Jacks3]

Its a legit question, but you're acting like a little hoe about it.

Nothing you have said justifies why Magic gets a pass for playing with the GOAT.

Nothing you have said, negates the fact that Magic, without Kareem,

won absolutely nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

Nothing you have said, tells me why Magic Johnson never won without Kareem Abdul Jabbar, arguably the greatest center, and player, of all time.

Heres your chance. Do it, tell me why Magic could not win with Kareem, and why hes rated so highly because of it.
Notice how he fails to mention that Shaq's teams had a 65% winning percentage without him in the 90's, or that the 80's Lakers typically played 60%+ ball without Magic in the lineup. Of course, Kobe is the only one not allowed to win without help. :facepalm

[RRR3]

Notice how he fails to mention that Shaq's teams had a 65% winning percentage without him in the 90's, or that the 80's Lakers typically played 60%+ ball without Magic in the lineup. Of course, Kobe is the only one not allowed to win without help. :facepalm
Catch24 is a Lakers fan just like you. I doubt he's trying to discredit Kobe, I think he's just pointing out that you can't discredit Magic and not do it for other great players who played with all-time great centers (in this case, Kobe).

[Heavincent]

Lots of things would be nice, but don't happen. In a perfect world, no one would hate any player (unless they actually did do something horrible) but that's the way things are. Kobe has regained a lot of his former popularity in recent years anyways.

I don't care that much, I'm just pointing out their stupidity.

Like I said, it's not really about the hate. I really don't mind people that hate Kobe, but respect him at the same time. That's perfectly understandable.

[RRR3]

I don't care that much, I'm just pointing out their stupidity.

Like I said, it's not really about the hate. I really don't mind people that hate Kobe, but respect him at the same time. That's perfectly understandable.
People are stupid in general, so it's not a big deal.

[Miller for 3]

how is this thread still going on :facepalm

[Jacks3]

Catch24 is a Lakers fan just like you. I doubt he's trying to discredit Kobe, I think he's just pointing out that you can't discredit Magic and not do it for other great players who played with all-time great centers (in this case, Kobe).
Nobody is trying to discredit Magic. The OP is just questioning how Magic seemingly never gets discredited for having the talent he did specifically Kareem and Kobe always does. It's a legitimate question.

[Legends66NBA7]

how is this thread still going on :facepalm

Who knows, it's laughable at any degree. It's should be taken off the forum.

[catch24]

Its a legit question, but you're acting like a little hoe about it.

No, it's not. Get your mind outta the gutter.

[RRR3]

Nobody is trying to discredit Magic. The OP is just questioning how Magic seemingly never gets discredited for having the talent he did specifically Kareem and Kobe always does. It's a legitimate question.
I believe I gave you a pretty legitimate answer (hope I'm not giving myself too much credit here lol)

[MichaelCheazley]

All of this played with someone good/ finals mvp bull crap is getting old. Oops Team USA had alot of the all time top players with the dream team. Nope dont count. Doesnt make sense to me. Finals mvp doesnt really indicate much either in some cases. The thing is u can argue alot of random crap regarding winning championships without certain people. Heck if last year cardinal,peja,caron and mahimi werent there the MAVS wouldnt win a championship due to them lacking the minimum number of players.

[The Iron Fist]

Notice how he fails to mention that Shaq's teams had a 65% winning percentage without him in the 90's, or that the 80's Lakers typically played 60%+ ball without Magic in the lineup. Of course, Kobe is the only one not allowed to win without help. :facepalm


Kobe has to win with Chris Mihm, Luke Walton and Smush Parker.

Even then, people would find a way to discredit it.

[The Iron Fist]

No, it's not. Get your mind outta the gutter.


You can't even say why its not, just like you can't say why Magic can win with Kareem, and get all the credit in the world.

Simply laughable.

[catch24]

You can't even say why its not, just like you can't say why Magic can win with Kareem, and get all the credit in the world.

Simply laughable.

No, what's laughable is your inability to understand the connection and relationships of the examples I listed. Why did Magic still win a pivotal game 6, on the road, in the Finals, as a rookie with Kareem out? Why did the 1990 Lakers lose in the semifinals with KAJ and make the Finals without him in 1991?

Rhetorical questions are rhetorical questions.

[PHILA]

why doesn't Magic get downgraded for playing with the GOAT?

Can you imagine Showtime with Russell or Wilt in the middle? They probably sweep the decade with a 10-peat. But what if KAJ was ten years younger in 1980? It's a 5 man sport.

[The Iron Fist]

No, what's laughable is your inability to understand the connection and relationships of the examples I listed. Why did Magic still win a pivotal game 6, on the road, in the Finals, as a rookie with Kareem out? Why did the 1990 Lakers lose in the semifinals with KAJ and make the Finals without him in 1991?

Rhetorical questions are rhetorical questions.


Whats laughable is thinking one game, encompasses an entire career.


So again, why come Magic never won a finals without Kareem in the middle?

Don't worry, I don't expect a dolt such as you to answer.

[The Iron Fist]

Can you imagine Showtime with Russell or Wilt in the middle? They probably sweep the decade with a 10-peat. But what if KAJ was ten years younger in 1980? It's a 5 man sport.


and your point is?

You have none. I'm simply curious as to why one person gets all the credit in the world for playing with, and winning with, one of the all time greats,

while another gets criticized for it.

[Jacks3]

and your point is?

You have none. I'm simply curious as to why one person gets all the credit in the world for playing with, and winning with, one of the all time greats,

while another gets criticized for it.
You won't get a reasonable answer from these people.

Their souls are tainted black with hatred.

:facepalm

[Round Mound]

Magic > Bryant

[Legends66NBA7]

Magic > Bryant

Hooray, now that somebody said it in an obvious agenda thread, chaos shall ensue.

[nnn123]

Its a legit question, but you're acting like a little hoe about it.

Nothing you have said justifies why Magic gets a pass for playing with the GOAT.

Nothing you have said, negates the fact that Magic, without Kareem,

won absolutely nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

Nothing you have said, tells me why Magic Johnson never won without Kareem Abdul Jabbar, arguably the greatest center, and player, of all time.

Heres your chance. Do it, tell me why Magic could not win with Kareem, and why hes rated so highly because of it.



Question for you....

Are you asking these questions as an indirect way to say "why does Kobe get ragged on, but not Magic?"

Or are you seriously asking these questions, indirectly showing that you're a fu**ing dumba@@?

No one wins titles without help, no Kareem, no anyone. He won 1 title in an entire decade of the weakest era of basketball, and he had Oscar to help out in this 1 precious title

[catch24]

Whats laughable is thinking one game, encompasses an entire career.

Are you retarded? One BIG game without their best player, in the Finals. Magic dropped 42/15/7, he did just fine without Kareem. I like how you conveniently ignored the 1990 and 1991 seasons though. Smart move :oldlol:

I easily refute everything you say because you have no evidence to support a thing. You don't know the game well, moose head. Everyone else realizes your question in the OP is rhetoric, kid. You are alone on an island dying off and being left behind by history...enjoy!

[Deuce Bigalow]

1987 Playoffs
Magic - 21.8 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 12.2 apg on 53.9 FG%
Kareem - 19.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 2.0 apg on 53 FG%

1988 Playoffs
Magic - 19.9 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 12.6 apg on 51.4 FG%
Kareem - 14.1 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg on 46.4 FG%

[Round Mound]

1987 Playoffs
Magic - 21.8 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 12.2 apg on 53.9 FG%
Kareem - 19.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 2.0 apg on 53 FG%

1988 Playoffs
Magic - 19.9 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 12.6 apg on 51.4 FG%
Kareem - 14.1 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg on 46.4 FG%

:applause:

[SuperPippen]

You won't get a reasonable answer from these people.

Their souls are tainted black with hatred.

:facepalm

Says the guy who talks shit about Jordan any chance he gets.

We get it dude. Kobe is a legend. One of the greatest players to ever pick up a basketball. I sincerely believe that, as well as you, and many others.

But, you don't have to discredit guys like Jordan in order to praise Kobe. You really don't.

Let's not be hypocritical, and appreciate both as the legends of the game that they are.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Because Jordan fans are no longer scared of Magic eclipsing his legacy...

[Legends66NBA7]

Their souls are tainted black with hatred.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gi14f__G4ng/Tjg4Yb7i3WI/AAAAAAAAAg0/z3LpfguBtvQ/s1600/funny+gifs+faces.gif

[The Iron Fist]

Are you retarded? One BIG game without their best player, in the Finals. Magic dropped 42/15/7, he did just fine without Kareem. I like how you conveniently ignored the 1990 and 1991 seasons though. Smart move :oldlol:

I easily refute everything you say because you have no evidence to support a thing. You don't know the game well, moose head. Everyone else realizes your question in the OP is rhetoric, kid. You are alone on an island dying off and being left behind by history...enjoy!


Again, tell me the results when Magic had no Kareem for an entire season.

How many titles were won when he left?


I know the game well enough to know that Magic Johnson isn't far and away as great as hes made to be.

[The Iron Fist]

Question for you....

Are you asking these questions as an indirect way to say "why does Kobe get ragged on, but not Magic?"

Or are you seriously asking these questions, indirectly showing that you're a fu**ing dumba@@?

No one wins titles without help, no Kareem, no anyone. He won 1 title in an entire decade of the weakest era of basketball, and he had Oscar to help out in this 1 precious title


Actually, I made this thread to show the hypocrisy that floods this board. Never, have I ever stated that anyone wins without help.

I just want to know why Magic is given praise for winning with an all time great, while another player, is criticized for doing so.

[The Iron Fist]

1987 Playoffs
Magic - 21.8 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 12.2 apg on 53.9 FG%
Kareem - 19.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 2.0 apg on 53 FG%

1988 Playoffs
Magic - 19.9 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 12.6 apg on 51.4 FG%
Kareem - 14.1 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg on 46.4 FG%


and this proves what exactly?

That James Worthy was the MVP in one of those seasons?

I'm just saying, if Magic is that great, why come he never won again when Kareem left, and he had virtually the same squad?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Magic was the best player on 4 of the 5 championships they won together

[Jacks3]

Says the guy who talks shit about Jordan any chance he gets.

We get it dude. Kobe is a legend. One of the greatest players to ever pick up a basketball. I sincerely believe that, as well as you, and many others.

But, you don't have to discredit guys like Jordan in order to praise Kobe. You really don't.

Let's not be hypocritical, and appreciate both as the legends of the game that they are.
Nobody is trying to discredit anybody. How much times do I have to say it?

We're just wondering why Kobe tends to get so much more discredited than other All-Time Greats in regards to winning with "help". No super-star in history gets more hate for playing with other great players and no superstar gets involved in more ridiculous hypothetical situations. For example, "replace Kobe with any other All-Star guard and the Lakers still win three in a row" or "Kobe only won from 08-10 because he had the best supporting cast in the league" or "Put Kobe on the Clippers and he'd have 0 rings". You never hear these scenarios with other legends, or at least not to the same extent. Not even close. It's bullshit.

It has nothing to do with Jordan.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Nobody is trying to discredit anybody. How much times do I have to say it?

We're just wondering why Kobe tends to get so much more discredited than other All-Time Greats in regards to winning with "help". No super-star in history gets more hate for playing with other great players and no superstar gets involved in more ridiculous hypothetical situations. For example, "replace Kobe with any other All-Star guard and the Lakers still win three in a row" or "Kobe only won from 08-10 because he had the best supporting cast in the league" or "Put Kobe on the Clippers and he'd have 0 rings". You never hear these scenarios with other legends, or at least not to the same extent. Not even close. It's bullshit.

It has nothing to do with Jordan.

Its because Kobe has special rules.

Bird, Magic and Jordan can have two or more HOF teammates and its not even worth bringing up yet Kobe would be nothing without Shaq err Gasol. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

It really is ridiculous.

[Pointguard]

Kareem was a Finals champion and its MVP and was a multiple MVP winner before he even heard of Magic Johnson.

Yet, Magic never won anything without Kareem in the middle.

So my question is,

why doesn't Magic get downgraded for playing with the GOAT?

Before Magic, Kareem just wasn't a winner in weak free-for-all-era. Then in the strongest era Magic wins more Finals MVP's than Kareem does in his prolonged career. Who ranked higher in the MVP rankings after Magic joined the Lakers? Who ran the team? Who made the decisions and was in charge of the ship? Magic not only made an unusual amount of decisions on the court he dictated pace, who and how the team would feature what player and when. When the Lakers were the most efficient team ever it was because Magic distributed the ball and made sure people got the ball where they wanted to get the ball and then on top of that, he lead them to places where they should be. There was no question as to who the leader was or whose play directly influenced the team.

Magic won it all with Kareem being a non factor, and got to the finals without Kareem in the toughest era of the sport. Only a hungy GOAT MJ could stop Magic, who btw, lost his second best player and his third best player was also compromised. I just can't imagine Magic winning only one ring in the 70's. Magic's will, savvy, leadership, control and creativity was what made those Laker teams of the 80's win. Kareem was great but his role wasn't greater than Magic's after '83. Now some can argue Kareem was a better player on a couple of the early '80's Championship teams but he didn't have more influence on those teams.

Now you can downgrade Magic but not without downgrading the greatest era in the sport along with all of the other great players of that era as well.

[Pushxx]

It's irresponsible to downplay Magic Johnson's supremacy as a a player. He is unarguably in the top 3 guards of all time.

He was a winner through and through. He proved himself as an unbelievable floor leader with an unmatched skillset as a guard.

No offense but I don't really get this thread or what's going on it it. Who the hell could doubt how good Magic Johnson was?

[97 bulls]

This is why I continue to say that we need too stop trying divy out the credit to players on championship teams. Take kobe off the lakers and they don't win. Take jabaar off the lakers and they don't win. Take any of the top 3-4 players off a championship team, and they don't win a championship.

And I do kind of find it hypocritical that magic gets full credit for his role on five championship teams, especially when based on ish criteria, he wasn't the best player for two of them. But kobe only get credit for 2 of his championships becausee he played alongside shaq.

[Jacks3]

I agree that people focus way too much on being "the man".

Kobe in the 01 playoffs was very easily better than he was in 2010 and yet he somehow gets less credit because he played with Shaq. That makes no sense to me.

[Dragonyeuw]

Nobody is trying to discredit anybody. How much times do I have to say it?

We're just wondering why Kobe tends to get so much more discredited than other All-Time Greats in regards to winning with "help". No super-star in history gets more hate for playing with other great players and no superstar gets involved in more ridiculous hypothetical situations. For example, "replace Kobe with any other All-Star guard and the Lakers still win three in a row" or "Kobe only won from 08-10 because he had the best supporting cast in the league" or "Put Kobe on the Clippers and he'd have 0 rings". You never hear these scenarios with other legends, or at least not to the same extent. Not even close. It's bullshit.

It has nothing to do with Jordan.

Agree 100%. Out of interest, why the style change in your posts?

[DMAVS41]

Its because Kobe has special rules.

Bird, Magic and Jordan can have two or more HOF teammates and its not even worth bringing up yet Kobe would be nothing without Shaq err Gasol. :oldlol:

because he wasn't an elite player yet in 00....and then was clearly not the best player on his team the next 2 years.

that has something to do with it. the other part is that his fans use those titles as proof of how good kobe is, but ignore other things. and of course kobe's play overall in the finals has something to do with it as well.

you really think people wouldn't be laughing at lebron if the heat had won and he played the way he did....or even if he played a little better? its not just kobe.

the truth is that kobe, like some of the players above, have had the great fortune of playing on some of the best rosters of their era. kobe got to play with a prime/peak shaq for 8 years and then has played with a top 3 roster for another 4 years of his career now. most guys are lucky to have 2 to 3 years in their career like that. kobe has had 12.

so when those 5>2 rings or whatever arguments come out, kobe gets hated on a bit more than he should because his level of play has been tremendous throughout his career.....its just not on the level that his fans want it to be...so they use rings as evidence and ignore the other stuff.

[Duncan21formvp]

It is pretty funny how nobody ever downgrades Magic for not being the best player on his team for his first three rings and yet Kobe is consistently hated on because he was 1B to Shaq for three straight titles and another Finals performance over 5 seasons. Plus, Magic played with Kareem/McAdoo/Cooper/Worthy/Rambis/Mychal Thompshon/Vlade/Scott/A.C Green etc for his entire career and you never hear him downgraded for that, yet Kobe has played with a entire 2 All-Stars over the course of his prime years (00-10) and people are always downgrading his rings for playing on "stacked" teams.

I guess the amazing Odom and Bynum's amazing 6 pts/4rbs average from 08-10 do make a big difference.:lol :lol :lol :lol

The difference is that Magic won league and finals mvp's later on with Kareem still on the team.

[Miller for 3]

The difference is that Magic won league and finals mvp's later on with Kareem still on the team.

Jordan'sBulls, why do you pretend to be a Spurs and Tim Duncan fan on ISH but are a huge MJ nutrider on realgm?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

because he wasn't an elite player yet in 00....and then was clearly not the best player on his team the next 2 years.

that has something to do with it. the other part is that his fans use those titles as proof of how good kobe is, but ignore other things. and of course kobe's play overall in the finals has something to do with it as well.

you really think people wouldn't be laughing at lebron if the heat had won and he played the way he did....or even if he played a little better? its not just kobe.

the truth is that kobe, like some of the players above, have had the great fortune of playing on some of the best rosters of their era. kobe got to play with a prime/peak shaq for 8 years and then has played with a top 3 roster for another 4 years of his career now. most guys are lucky to have 2 to 3 years in their career like that. kobe has had 12.

so when those 5>2 rings or whatever arguments come out, kobe gets hated on a bit more than he should because his level of play has been tremendous throughout his career.....its just not on the level that his fans want it to be...so they use rings as evidence and ignore the other stuff.

Kobe's play in the Finals has been consistent with every other elite wing's play against an unreal string of elite defenses. The two times Jordan faced defenses in the same defensive rating ballpark in the playoffs his numbers were far from Jordan like. By the way Kobe in 2000 was an all star, a second team all NBA team selection and a first team all defensive team selection. He was an elite player by any reasonable definition.


There is not a logical basis in the idea that players should be judged on whether or not they are the best player on a title team instead of players should be judged on the amount of help they had on a championship team. Why do people stop paying attention after Shaq? What about Robert Horry vs James Worthy vs Dennis Rodman vs Robert Parish vs Tony Parker vs Ray Allen? Basketball isn't a two man sport. I'd think young Kobe winning a title with next best 11 players is less impressive than young Kobe winning a title with prime Shaq and 10 role players. Don't you?