Statistical Evidence says Wade > Bryant

[Round Mound]

From 2004 to 2011 Wade has Been a Better Player than Kobe

Career Season

Wade: 25.4 PPG/48.5% FG/5.1 RPG/6.3 APG/1.8 SPG/1.1 BPG/ 3.6 TOVs PG/2.6 PFsPG/PER: 25.7/DRT 104

Kobe: 25.3 PPG/45.4% FG/4.1 RPG/4.7 APG/ 1.5 SPG/0.5 BPG/2.9 TOVs PG/2.6 PFs PG/PER: 23.5/DRT 105

Career Play-Offs:

Wade: 25.9 PPG/48.3% FG/5.7 RPG/ 5.6 APG/1.6 SPG/ 1.0 BPG/ 4.0 T0Vs PG/3.0 PFs PG/ PER: 24.6/ DRT 102

Kobe: 25.4 PPG/44.8% FG/5.1 RPG/4.8 APG/1.4 SPG/0.7 BPG/3.0 TOVs PG/3.0 PFs PG/ PER: 22.3/ DRT 106

Only Reason why Wade has more TOVs is because he has played with Weaker Casts than Kobe has

Head to Head: Wade Dominated the game All Around Wise

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=wadedw01

Bryant is the Most Overrated Superstar of All Time....Right there with Bill Russell

Wade is More Impactfull, Efficient and All Around Wise Plus D > Bryant

[DevilsAssassin]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

lol @ Kobe Bryant making the All NBA 1st Team over Dwyane Wade

[D-Wade316]

From 2004 to 2011 Wade has Been a Better Player than Kobe

Career Season

Wade: 25.4 PPG/48.5% FG/5.1 RPG/6.3 APG/1.8 SPG/1.1 BPG/ 3.6 TOVs PG/2.6 PFsPG/PER: 25.7/DRT 104

Kobe: 25.3 PPG/45.4% FG/4.1 RPG/4.7 APG/ 1.5 SPG/0.5 BPG/2.9 TOVs PG/2.6 PFs PG/PER: 23.5/DRT 105

Career Play-Offs:

Wade: 25.9 PPG/48.3% FG/5.7 RPG/ 5.6 APG/1.6 SPG/ 1.0 BPG/ 4.0 T0Vs PG/3.0 PFs PG/ PER: 24.6/ DRT 102

Kobe: 25.4 PPG/44.8% FG/5.1 RPG/4.8 APG/1.4 SPG/0.7 BPG/3.0 TOVs PG/3.0 PFs PG/ PER: 22.3/ DRT 106

Only Reason why Wade has more PFs and TOVs is because he has played with Weaker Casts than Kobe has

Head to Head: Wade Dominated the game All Around Wise

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=wadedw01

Bryant is the Most Overrated Superstar of All Time....Right there with Bill Russell

Wade is More Impactfull, Efficient and All Around Wise Plus D > Bryant
I was about to applause your post until you said Bill Russell is the most overrated superstar of all-time.:facepalm
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4983/unled1dp.png
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/7256/unledzjn.png

[SAKOTXA]

This has been said million of times, but i won't go into too much detail.

The likes of Lebron, Wade, Rose, etc..., had the green light on offense as soon as they entered the league. Put any of those on the Lakers with prime Shaq, the chances are none of them will have similar career numbers.

Sure, you might make the case that Kobe wasn't good enough to have the green light from the get go, but he would average at least 20PPG his first couple of seasons if he was given the situations those players were in.

[tpols]

Clutch stats?
Playoff record[remember east versus west]?

[catch24]

Stats stats stats

[D-Wade316]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

lol @ Kobe Bryant making the All NBA 1st Team over Dwyane Wade
:applause:

[Round Mound]

:facepalm Now You Hate Stats? Now because they don`t favor your favorite player you will go against that evidence? OH Kobe scored 81 against the worst NBA team ever? Robinson scored 71 and nobody of the Real Fans say he was a better offensive player than Hakeem.

What about PER, EFF, Plus/Minus, Shot Made/Missed Diferential/WSares Per 48 Minutes etc mostly i repeat mostly all will favor Wade

Wade is a Better All Around Player and Defender tham Bryant. PER and DRT won`t Give You What Style of Player You Like but What Happened at Court Time

[DevilsAssassin]

Clutch stats?
Playoff record[remember east versus west]?

7th year Kobe Bryant vs Detroit Pistons 2004 Finals
http://gyazo.com/e3185f81ac915109fa9f20ca704bce1c.png


2nd Year Dwyane Wade vs Detroit Pistons 2005 Playoffs
http://gyazo.com/5f6df94bab08bf3bf835dfbe350fdc7a.png


3rd Year Dwyane Wade vs Detroit Pistons 2006 Playoffs
http://gyazo.com/27848e985e732f349c0a3699b6e2cf4f.png

http://i54.tinypic.com/2ypjf40.jpg

[catch24]

I don't hate stats. Your problem is you use them as the end all be all when ranking/analyzing players.

Bill Russell is overrated? That's cute :oldlol:

[Round Mound]

I was about to applause your post until you said Bill Russell is the most overrated superstar of all-time.:facepalm
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4983/unled1dp.png
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/7256/unledzjn.png

Win SHARES...is SHARING That means that TEAM VALUE is More Important than Individual and Russell Played with like 7 HOFs 5-6 of them in his Prime and Their Primes. Better Stat is Defensive Reating DRT.

Russell was a monster Rebounder, Shot Blocker and Defender yeah and so was Rodman but he was A ZERO Offensive Force. He played 1 End.

[whatever666]

Wade has been somewhat more statistically productive yes, but not better, so much goes into such a small difference in stats when stats cant accurately measure defense and most importantly clutchness, or wait a minute clutchness can be somewhat measured in stats actually.

I believe if you go here and look at the gamewinners and clutch productions you will find the answer: www.82games.com

Then we have the jewelry difference aswell.

[donald_trump]

wades 2006 performance against the pistons is probably one of the best playoff series i've ever seen. its better than his finals performance by a solid margin in my opinion.
he was absolutely incredible that series. shame he came in with the flu for the last game. i cant imagine how much better his stats would have been if he played healthy.

[nathanjizzle]

well you have to factor in kobe comming into the league at 18, first and second year he was comming off the bench and i think his third year also? he was still maturing to the nba game for a while. So factoring in those seasons to his stats would definitly hurt.....while dwyane wade came into the league with already college experience at 22 years old.

[D-Wade316]

wades 2006 performance against the pistons is probably one of the best playoff series i've ever seen. its better than his finals performance by a solid margin in my opinion.
he was absolutely incredible that series. shame he came in with the flu for the last game. i cant imagine how much better his stats would have been if he played healthy.
Yeah. His stats for that series are below:
26.8ppg, 5.2rpg, 5.5apg, 1.8spg, 1.5bpg, 80.1ts%, 76.6efg%

Imagine him not having that flu in the last game. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[nathanjizzle]

i just calculated kobes carreer avg points per game without his first 4 years starting at the age of 22 the same age wade came in the league

he average 28.15 points per game.

[Cali Syndicate]

From 2004 to 2011 Wade has Been a Better Player than Kobe

Career Season

Wade: 25.4 PPG/48.5% FG/5.1 RPG/6.3 APG/1.8 SPG/1.1 BPG/ 3.6 TOVs PG/2.6 PFsPG/PER: 25.7/DRT 104

Kobe: 25.3 PPG/45.4% FG/4.1 RPG/4.7 APG/ 1.5 SPG/0.5 BPG/2.9 TOVs PG/2.6 PFs PG/PER: 23.5/DRT 105

Career Play-Offs:

Wade: 25.9 PPG/48.3% FG/5.7 RPG/ 5.6 APG/1.6 SPG/ 1.0 BPG/ 4.0 T0Vs PG/3.0 PFs PG/ PER: 24.6/ DRT 102

Kobe: 25.4 PPG/44.8% FG/5.1 RPG/4.8 APG/1.4 SPG/0.7 BPG/3.0 TOVs PG/3.0 PFs PG/ PER: 22.3/ DRT 106

Only Reason why Wade has more TOVs is because he has played with Weaker Casts than Kobe has

Head to Head: Wade Dominated the game All Around Wise

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=wadedw01

Bryant is the Most Overrated Superstar of All Time....Right there with Bill Russell

Wade is More Impactfull, Efficient and All Around Wise Plus D > Bryant

Do this statistical analysis of Kobe and Wade from 04-now.

If stats are proof, Wade should still have better stats.

Using career stats to assess which player is better while disregarding the fact Kobe rode the bench for his first two seasons makes your argument flawed.

[Cali Syndicate]

i just calculated kobes carreer avg points per game without his first 4 years starting at the age of 22 the same age wade came in the league

he average 28.15 points per game.

Why the first 4? Kobe became a starter in his 3rd year. Use playing time, not age.

[D-Wade316]

i just calculated kobes carreer avg points per game without his first 4 years starting at the age of 22 the same age wade came in the league

he average 28.15 points per game.
And if you remove Wade's rookie year and injury-riddled 07-08 season, his stats would greatly increase as well. :facepalm

So much for if

[nathanjizzle]

And if you remove Wade's rookie year and injury-riddled 07-08 season, his stats would greatly increase as well. :facepalm

So much for if

do it.

[nathanjizzle]

Why the first 4? Kobe became a starter in his 3rd year. Use playing time, not age.

it would only be fair to do it this way if your comparing stats...i mean kobes not even fully developed mentally or physically till hes over 21 anyway. dwayne wade came in the league already mature.

Also im not biased towards any player....just make your comparisons fair.

[Jacks3]

Kobe has the better WAR.

Kobe has the better peak WS.

Kobe has better adjusted offensive +/- numbers.

Kobe's clutch numbers crush Wade's.

Kobe statistically destroys Wade as a scorer, is a better re-bounder, and a better defender.

Kobe from 2001-2010: 29 PPG/6 RPG/5 RPG/2 SPG/0.6 BPG/56% TS

Kobe>Wade!

BTW, Wade's PER/WS numbers are inflated from playing on teams with very low pace numbers. The exact opposite happens with Kobe. For example, Kobe in 08 put up 28.3/6.3/5.4/1.8/58% TS and "only" had a 24 PER.

Now look at 2011: 24 PER despite only doing 25/5/5/1/55% TS?

Why? The Lakers were among the slowest in the league, while in 08 they were the 6th fastest.

PER/WS love ball-dominant guys on very slow-paced teams. That's one of the reasons guys like LeBron/Peak CP3/LeBron do so well there.

2ez

[Cali Syndicate]

it would only be fair to do it this way if your comparing stats...i mean kobes not even fully developed mentally or physically till hes over 21 anyway. dwayne wade came in the league already mature.

Also im not biased towards any player....just make your comparisons fair.

if you use age, your disregarding Kobe's 4 year learning curve in the NBA and 2 as a full time starter. I understand what you're saying about fairness but to be fair, it has to be playing time.

[nathanjizzle]

if you use age, your disregarding Kobe's 4 year learning curve in the NBA and 2 as a full time starter. I understand what you're saying about fairness but to be fair, it has to be playing time.

:facepalm

[Cali Syndicate]

it would only be fair to do it this way if your comparing stats...i mean kobes not even fully developed mentally or physically till hes over 21 anyway. dwayne wade came in the league already mature.

Also im not biased towards any player....just make your comparisons fair.

Kobe spent two years as an NBA player. Spent two years coming to team practices and working with NBA trainers developing his game.

You really think he wasn't as mentally prepared for the NBA as Wade was as a rookie just because of age?

By age 22 Wade spent 2 years in Marquette's basketball program. Kobe spent 4 years in the NBA. You really think using age is fair?

Perspective-

Kobe was scoring 28ppg at the age of 22.

Do you honestly believe if Kobe was an NBA rookie at age 22 that he would be scoring 28ppg?

[24r2]

From 2004 to 2011 Wade has Been a Better Player than Kobe

Career Season

Wade: 25.4 PPG/48.5% FG/5.1 RPG/6.3 APG/1.8 SPG/1.1 BPG/ 3.6 TOVs PG/2.6 PFsPG/PER: 25.7/DRT 104

Kobe: 25.3 PPG/45.4% FG/4.1 RPG/4.7 APG/ 1.5 SPG/0.5 BPG/2.9 TOVs PG/2.6 PFs PG/PER: 23.5/DRT 105

Career Play-Offs:

Wade: 25.9 PPG/48.3% FG/5.7 RPG/ 5.6 APG/1.6 SPG/ 1.0 BPG/ 4.0 T0Vs PG/3.0 PFs PG/ PER: 24.6/ DRT 102

Kobe: 25.4 PPG/44.8% FG/5.1 RPG/4.8 APG/1.4 SPG/0.7 BPG/3.0 TOVs PG/3.0 PFs PG/ PER: 22.3/ DRT 106

Only Reason why Wade has more TOVs is because he has played with Weaker Casts than Kobe has

Head to Head: Wade Dominated the game All Around Wise

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=wadedw01

Bryant is the Most Overrated Superstar of All Time....Right there with Bill Russell

Wade is More Impactfull, Efficient and All Around Wise Plus D > Bryant

6 billion people think otherwise, biatch :)

[Cali Syndicate]

And are you saying 21 years of age is like some golden number for breaking into maturity?

Because I was under the assumption all people mature at different rates.

[RazorBaLade]

Why did you say from 04 to 11 but use kobes entire career numbers?

[nathanjizzle]

Kobe spent two years as an NBA player. Spent two years coming to team practices and working with NBA trainers developing his game.

You really think he wasn't as mentally prepared for the NBA as Wade was as a rookie just because of age?

By age 22 Wade spent 2 years in Marquette's basketball program. Kobe spent 4 years in the NBA. You really think using age is fair?

Perspective-

Kobe was scoring 28ppg at the age of 22.

Do you honestly believe if Kobe was an NBA rookie at age 22 that he would be scoring 28ppg?

look, i dont even want to argue about this stupid shit because im correct.

the OP gives a misconstrued perception comparison of both players stats. kobe entered at 18 with only 4 years of highschool experience...dwyane wade came in with 3 years of college. If you wanted to be fair you have to factor that in or atleast consider it. Also kobes past prime numbers are already calculated.....wades past prime numbers are only partially calculated.

[nathanjizzle]

And are you saying 21 years of age is like some golden number for breaking into maturity?

Because I was under the assumption all people mature at different rates.

yea thats exactly wat i said.:lol

[nathanjizzle]

too many dumb monkeys on this forum. You cant teach an idiot knowledge if there not capable of understanding and containing that knowledge.

[entropy35]

I think most people know Wade is the better player, but kobe is the better winner. That is why people put Kobe over wade.

[Nick Young]

Kobe: 4 more rings, more MVPs more final MVPs, more all NBA first teams, more All NBA Defense teams, more Allstar teams, 81 points


Wade: Better stats

you decide who you want

This is actually the only game I ever went to at Staples, its so expensive but my dad got tickets for my birthday. In the end is a perfect illustration why Kobe is better than Wade. He does whatever it takes to win and comes up huge when it matter WITHOUT ref bailouts

Enjoy this clip, still gives me chills to this day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3s90fR1ak

[scm5]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=wadedw01

just sayin....

[Cali Syndicate]

look, i dont even want to argue about this stupid shit because im correct.

the OP gives a misconstrued perception comparison of both players stats. kobe entered at 18 with only 4 years of highschool experience...dwyane wade came in with 3 years of college. If you wanted to be fair you have to factor that in or atleast consider it. Also kobes past prime numbers are already calculated.....wades past prime numbers are only partially calculated.


So comparing Kobe at age 22 after 4 years in the NBA to Wade as a rookie is FAIR?

LOL at your unbiased fairness. Talk about an oxymoron.

And FYI Wade only spent TWO YEARS at Marquette.

[Cali Syndicate]

yea thats exactly wat i said.:lol

Uh no you weren't. If you truly believed people matured differently, than you wouldn't be using AGE as the reason for your assessment.

[Jacks3]

I think most people know Wade is the better player, but kobe is the better winner. That is why people put Kobe over wade.
Actually, the consensus is Prime Kobe> Prime Wade.

[MichaelCheazley]

Enjoy this clip, still gives me chills to this day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3s90fR1ak

Do you realize how mediocre the heat were back then? That game shouldnt have even been close enough to be determined by one shot. We started q rich, jermaine and carlos arroyo. All of this kobe buzzer beater hype is stupid considering most of the teams he hits buzzer beaters on are teams that shouldnt even be in games close enough to be decided by a buzzer beater considering Kobe's team.

[D-Wade316]

do it.
Regular season:
26.81ppg on 19.14fga, 48.83fg%, 50.46efg%, 57.25ts%
25.4ppg on 18.4fga, 48.5fg%, 50.0efg%, 56.7ts%
5.34rpg
4.9rpg
6.54apg
6.1apg

Playoffs:
27.47ppg on 19.43fga, 48.97fg%, 51.25efg%, 58.17ts%
25.9ppg on 18.77fga%, 48.3fg%, 50.2efg%, 57.0ts%
6.11rpg
5.7rpg
5.54apg
5.6apg

Bolded ones are without his rookie year, 2007 playoffs, and 2007-2008 regular season.

[Jacks3]

lol. "kobe's teams"

Wade couldn't even win with the best player in the league and another perennial All-Star PF.

:oldlol:

[D-Wade316]

lol. "kobe's teams"

Wade couldn't even win with the best player in the league and another perennial All-Star PF.

:oldlol:
Prime Shaq>Prime Lebron & Wade.


Kobe can't win with prime Shaq in 04. :oldlol:

[MichaelCheazley]

Kobe couldnt win with a Prime shaq, and very servicable Malone and payton. And it WAS mostly his fault why they lost.Also the heat trio have been together one year AND made the finals when people said they wont get past the celtics or bulls. Heck one of the turds here said philly had a chance of beating them if they took game 1. I see alot of distress for you in the upcoming years as this Heat trio is bound to do some damage. The most positive news you'll get with kobe on the other hand is that "he is back", "random obscure surgery heals him","tim grover" blah blah blah. Keep making excuses to make yourself feel better. Fact is your hero got swept by the same team that beat the Heat.

[RazorBaLade]

Kobe couldnt win with a Prime shaq, and very servicable Malone and payton. And it WAS mostly his fault why they lost.Also the heat trio have been together one year AND made the finals when people said they wont get past the celtics or bulls. Heck one of the turds here said philly had a chance of beating them if they took game 1. I see alot of distress for you in the upcoming years as this Heat trio is bound to do some damage. The most positive news you'll get with kobe on the other hand is that "he is back", "random obscure surgery heals him","tim grover" blah blah blah. Keep making excuses to make yourself feel better. Fact is your hero got swept by the same team that beat the Heat.

very serviceable? are you retarded? payton averaged 4 pts on 30% and malone was injured

[Jacks3]

Prime Shaq>Prime Lebron & Wade.


Kobe can't win with prime Shaq in 04. :oldlol:
Shaq wasn't in his prime in 2004. :oldlol:

BTW, he won three straight titles with Shaq and made another Finals.

Wade with the best in the league and another All-Star PF couldn't even beat a one-man team.

:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

Kobe couldnt win with a Prime shaq, and very servicable Malone and payton. And it WAS mostly his fault why they lost.
Yeah, it's all his fault Malone was injured and the rest of the Lakers outside Shaq shot 33%. :lol I didn't know one player could cause a team to lose by a average margin of 15 PPG.:lol Is that why the biggest blow-out loss by far came in the game where he only took 12 shots?:lol

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe couldnt win with a Prime shaq, and very servicable Malone and payton. And it WAS mostly his fault why they lost

Nobody would claim Kobe had a good, or even respectable 2004 finals for a player of his caliber. His shot selection in particular was horrendous(but at least he played good defense in that series).

However, you're really going to criticize Kobe and then call Malone and Payton serviceable? Payton averaged 4 ppg on 32% shooting in that series and looked slow defensively as Billups absolutely torched him for 21 ppg on 51% shooting and 47% on 3s. That's not serviceable. Malone was limping around that whole series. He couldn't contribute due to his injury and was a non-factor. Neither played at any notable level that series. To blame Kobe for losing with those guys is absolutely ridiculous considering the level they were actually at during that series. Malone due to being a 40/41 year old playing through an injury, and Payton was just embarrassingly incompetent.

[MichaelCheazley]

My definition of servicable is decent. Like Joel Anthony is a serviceable center. Malone was still a good contributor before his injury and was still contributing to his best ability(mostly rebounding).Payton, on the other hand played terrible in the finals but was still a decent player that year overall(but struggled due to not having the ball in his hands/adapting). I realize they played like crap but when you refuse to pass to a person shooting 60% and choose to "take over" you carry alot of the burden.

the rest of the Lakers outside Shaq shot 33%.

And Kobe shot 38 % (17% from 3 )while shooting a more significant amount of shots.

[Jacks3]

Yeah, Shaq getting 2-3 extra shots per game would have made all the difference.

I'm sure a 5-game sweep with a average losing margin of 15 PPG could have been completely turned around if only Bryant got Shaq 2-3 extra shots. The rest of the team shooting 33% means nothing. The biggest blow-out by far coming in the game where Bryant shot only 13 times means nothing. Malone not playing and Payton putting up 4 PPG while getting destroyed by Billups means nothing.

It's all about Shaq and his FGA!!!!:bowdown:

[Jacks3]

And Kobe shot 38 % (17% from 3 )while shooting a more significant amount of shots.
And the Lakers lost by a average margin of 15 PPG. And the rest of the team shot even worse at 33%. Their biggest loss by far came in the game where he only took 13 shots. What does that tell you? :facepalm

[MichaelCheazley]

And the Lakers lost by a average margin of 15 PPG. And the rest of the team shot even worse at 33%. Their biggest loss by far came in the game where he only took 13 shots. What does that tell you? :facepalm


Shaq touching the ball more would result in more people helping on defence on him. This will cause openings for the shooters to take advantage of. The detroit defence was good and they were confident with Ben playing him man to man. But if shaq had the oppurtunity to put work in and take as many shots as needed it will cause the defense to adjust(26 ppg is acceptable but imagine if he average 30+ on relavtively similar fg%). Therefore leaving kobe and co. with more/better oppurtunities yo put up shots. And with more touches, Shaq's motivation to play better defense increases.And you never know if that could have made the series more interesting. I didnt say kobe chucked his was into losing, im saying he didnt play his cards right. But who am I to say this,its all just speculation based on what i've seen

[D-Wade316]

Shaq touching the ball more would result in more people helping on defence on him. This will cause openings for the shooters to take advantage of. The detroit defence was good and they were confident with Ben playing him man to man. But if shaq had the oppurtunity to put work in and take as many shots as needed it will cause the defense to adjust(26 ppg is acceptable but imagine if he average 30+ on relavtively similar fg%). Therefore leaving kobe and co. with more/better oppurtunities yo put up shots. And with more touches, Shaq's motivation to play better defense increases.And you never know if that could have made the series more interesting. I didnt say kobe chucked his was into losing, im saying he didnt play his cards right. But what am I to say its all just speculation based on what i've seen on my behalf.
:applause:

[Allstar24]

Eyes and actual results say Kobe >>> Wade. That's all.

[ShaqAttack3234]

My definition of servicable is decent. Like Joel Anthony is a serviceable center. Malone was still a good contributor before his injury and was still contributing to his best ability(mostly rebounding).Payton, on the other hand played terrible in the finals but was still a decent player that year overall(but struggled due to not having the ball in his hands/adapting). I realize they played like crap but when you refuse to pass to a person shooting 60% and choose to "take over" you carry alot of the burden.

Malone was contributing a lot when he was healthy. Easily the Lakers 3rd best and most important player before going down in the regular season and again in the playoffs before he re-injured himself. But Kobe didn't lose with that Karl Malone. He lost with the one limping around in the finals. I'm not blaming Malone or saying that he wasn't contributing to the best of his ability, it's just that he wasn't able to be much of a factor due to his injuries.

Payton was still a fairly good player in the regular season(though a bad fit on the team and declining fast), but he sucked throughout the playoffs and was so bad in the playoffs, it goes well beyond blaming Kobe for Payton's struggles.

I'm not saying that Kobe doesn't deserve blame for his play in that series. But he doesn't deserve blame for losing WITH Malone and Payton. That fact is really only a technicality and irrelevant because they did not(or could not in Malone's case) contribute as solid NBA starters, much less noteworthy NBA players at that time.

[L8kersfan222]

:lol Dwhistle fans

[MichaelCheazley]

:lol Dwhistle fans
Thank you for your great contribution to this thread. I find your argument to be the best out of all the ones I've read so far. Please keep posting.

SMFH atleast try to add an argument and maybe a point or two.

[D-Wade316]

Eyes and actual results say Kobe >>> Wade. That's all.
Stats = Actual Results

FAIL

[trooper]

Stats = Actual Results

FAIL

Wins and rings = Actual Results

FAIL

[L8kersfan222]

Thank you for your great contribution to this thread. I find your argument to be the best out of all the ones I've read so far. Please keep posting.

SMFH atleast try to add an argument and maybe a point or two.
Rage caused by insecurity, insecurity caused by knowing you're wrong.
TOO EASY
:sleeping

[D-Wade316]

Wins and rings = Actual Results

FAIL
Rings =/= Individual Accomplishment

FAIL

[nathanjizzle]

Uh no you weren't. If you truly believed people matured differently, than you wouldn't be using AGE as the reason for your assessment.

so if you dont factor in young age then your saying maturity has nothing to do with basketball level and skills? i wonder why players get better as they get older and decline when they get too old.

[nathanjizzle]

So comparing Kobe at age 22 after 4 years in the NBA to Wade as a rookie is FAIR?

LOL at your unbiased fairness. Talk about an oxymoron.

And FYI Wade only spent TWO YEARS at Marquette.

fyi he played 3 years. do some research. Im not exactly saying that is the formula to go by, you still have to factor it in though to get a fair assessment of how good each player really is.

[MichaelCheazley]

Rage caused by insecurity, insecurity caused by knowing you're wrong.
TOO EASY
:sleeping

How exactly am i wrong? What point of mine is? If you can tell me which one and why I'm wrong and make sense. I'll accept the fact. After all its just a forum. I'm not really affected by childish antics like yours.

[L8kersfan222]

What point of mine is?
:lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Gotta love people still clinging to the 04 Finals against one the greatest defensive teams of all time while the two stat darlings just failed miserably with an additional all star big man against the biggest choker of the decade and a handful of guys past their prime. :oldlol:

[MichaelCheazley]

^^ You mean the same team that Dwyane wade absolutely destroyed the next 2 years in the ECF?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

^^ You mean the same team that Dwyane wade absolutely destroyed the next 2 years in the ECF?

No the 04 Pistons were not the same defensive team in 05 and 06. Not even close. :confusedshrug:

Def Ratings

04- 95.4
05- 101.2
06- 103.1

[MichaelCheazley]

No the 04 Pistons were not the same defensive team in 05 and 06. Not even close. :confusedshrug:

Def Ratings

04- 95.4
05- 101.2
06- 103.1

Fair point, but they did have the same personnel.And did make the finals the next year again.

[D-Wade316]

No the 04 Pistons were not the same defensive team in 05 and 06. Not even close. :confusedshrug:

Def Ratings

04- 95.4
05- 101.2
06- 103.1
Refer to this (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237955) thread.

[trooper]

Rings =/= Individual Accomplishment

FAIL

Where does individual achievement come from? We were talking about actual results, which equal rings and wins.

FAIL

[Allstar24]

Wade got punked by Dirk in the finals. Why is anyone even bringing up the 04 finals, which happened SEVEN years ago? Especially when KB more than redeemed himself by winning 2 more championships for us. Lets talk about the present. All we remember is how Wade and his boys choked this year. 3 stars going up against 1, still came out as losers. Tsk tsk.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Refer to this (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237955) thread.

lol

If you can't compare defensive ratings stats across eras you also can't compare individual offensive finals stats across eras. It works both ways you dolt :facepalm

[MichaelCheazley]

Wade got punked by Dirk in the finals.

How did your series against the same team go? If were talking about the present that is.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How did your series against the same team go? If were talking about the present that is.

Kobe lost in the second round with the equivalent of Chris Bosh after going to three consecutive finals and coming home with two rings.

[G-Funk]

Niggah pls! Kobes been putting up 28/6/5/2 46%fg 80%ft 36%3pt and a lot less tov FOR 12 YEARS....playoffs too!

[MichaelCheazley]

Kobe lost in the second round with the equivalent of Chris Bosh after going to three consecutive finals and coming home with two rings.

Rest of information is irrelevant according to that dude. Apparently wade got his ass handed to him by a choker and the present is what matters. So he got swept by the same team. And if your logic is
Kobe =wade
Pau=Chris

While lebron is a top 5 player. These on the other hand are the players on the lakers that are better or equal to anyone outside of the big 3:
Bynum,odom,artest,barnes,brown. Interesting so, as many here have suggested, a better player (in your opinion) than james or wade lost with a more balanced and better constructed team. How does that make him look?

[G-Funk]

So comparing Kobe at age 22 after 4 years in the NBA to Wade as a rookie is FAIR?

LOL at your unbiased fairness. Talk about an oxymoron.

And FYI Wade only spent TWO YEARS at Marquette.


Great players such as Jordan, Bird, Magic, Duncan(to name a few) that have stayed in college for 3-4 years never had a problem transitioning to the NBA

On the other hand players who come out of high school or college with 1 year experience do need time to develop.

Proof is in the putting!

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Rest of information is irrelevant according to that dude. Apparently wade got his ass handed to him by a choker and the present is what matters. So he got swept by the same team. And if your logic is
Kobe =wade
Pau=Chris

While lebron is a top 5 player. These on the other hand are the players on the lakers that are better or equal to anyone outside of the big 3:
Bynum,odom,artest,barnes,brown. Interesting so, as many here have suggested, a better player (in your opinion) than james or wade lost with a more balanced and better constructed team. How does that make him look?

It makes him look like a 5 time champion coming off of 3 consecutive finals appearances.

Imagine LeBron is injured and retires and Wade/Bosh take home the next two titles anyway. The year after that Wade/Bosh lose in the second round. How do you think that would make Wade look? :facepalm

[G-Funk]

Rest of information is irrelevant according to that dude. Apparently wade got his ass handed to him by a choker and the present is what matters. So he got swept by the same team. And if your logic is
Kobe =wade
Pau=Chris

While lebron is a top 5 player. These on the other hand are the players on the lakers that are better or equal to anyone outside of the big 3:
Bynum,odom,artest,barnes,brown. Interesting so, as many here have suggested, a better player (in your opinion) than james or wade lost with a more balanced and better constructed team. How does that make him look?


come on bro he also had Lebron, Miller, Haslem & House

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Lol I love the fact that he wants to justify Wade's turnovers by saying he's played with weaker casts, but also doesn't mention he's played in a weaker conference as well as Kobe having 2 seasons coming off the bench.

[MichaelCheazley]

@yao mings foot: How is that similar to kobe's situation? Who got injured thats equivalent to lebron?

@ Gfunk: I mentioned lebron and i said the players are better or equal to the rest of the heat cast. And please dont mention house he didnt even play much.


=If we have a full season of Udonis and mike miller healthy then we'll see what this heat team will truly look like. I dont mean to disrespect anyone. Kobe is a great player. In my opinion his career has certainly been better so far than wade's. Im only trying to counterpoint some of the dumber arguments made so far.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

@yao mings foot: How is that similar to kobe's situation? Who got injured thats equivalent to lebron?

@ Gfunk: I mentioned lebron and i said the players are better or equal to the rest of the heat cast. And please dont mention house he didnt even play much.


=If we have a full season of Udonis and mike miller healthy then we'll see what this heat team will truly look like. I dont mean to disrespect anyone. Kobe is a great player. In my opinion his career has certainly been better so far than wade's. Im only trying to counterpoint some of the dumber arguments made so far.

Nobody is equivalent to Lebron as Kobe's teammate. That's the point. Even when Kobe played with Shaq he didn't have a second all star like Bosh playing along side him as well.

Now you are telling me Kobe should be downgraded after winning two rings and going to the Finals with just one all star player because he didn't win 3 in a row or make the Finals 4 years in a row?

[MichaelCheazley]

@ Yao mings foot :

Im not saying he should be downgraded. Someone said what happened in 2004 doesnt matter and only the present does. And went as far as to say thats the bottomline is wade got owned by dirk. Well my counter point was if only the PRESENT matters how did kobe fair much better?

[scm5]

Seriously though....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=wadedw01

When matched up head to head, Kobe tends to outperform Wade. Kobe for the most part guards Wade, while Wade hasn't guarded Kobe exclusively up until recently.

Wade's team has won more, but Kwame and Smush.

[AlphaWolf24]

From ages 22years old - 32 years old Lord Godbe da GAwd = 28.5 PPG 6REB 5AST 7 NBA Finals 5X champion....

Kobe Haterz only chance to even make Kobe seem human ..."hey lets use Kobe's career numbers when he barely played and when he was just a LegenBe" (yeah highschool legend...:confusedshrug: )......That will make him look like the rest of the mortals..


But you all have Failed......Lord Gawdbe with a decade of 28.5PPG 6REB and 5AST with 7 NBA Finals is so Greater then Wade....it aint even close...




next

[scm5]

Lol I love the fact that he wants to justify Wade's turnovers by saying he's played with weaker casts, but also doesn't mention he's played in a weaker conference as well as Kobe having 2 seasons coming off the bench.

I attribute Kobe's turnovers to Kwame Brown.

From 05-07' I believe Kobe would have averaged 1.0 TO/gm if he wasn't playing with Kwame Brown.

PROOF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCup3PVSTj0&feature=player_embedded

[RRR3]

Where are you getting 7 assists from? Kobes career high is 6.0 apg. Stop lying to make your boy look better

[MichaelCheazley]

And I attribute kwame browns shittiness to the mental abuse from michael jordan. Wait....was it a ploy all along just so Kobe wont catch up to jordan? LAWD.

[AlphaWolf24]

Where are you getting 7 assists from? Kobes career high is 6.0 apg. Stop lying to make your boy look better


fixed....simple mistake....



(looks around)....wow Kobe police on high alert today:lol

[catch24]

Seriously though....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=wadedw01

When matched up head to head, Kobe tends to outperform Wade. Kobe for the most part guards Wade, while Wade hasn't guarded Kobe exclusively up until recently.

That game in Miami last year (not season) was awesome. Wade took it upon himself to try and defend Kobe the last 5 or so minutes of the game...this is what happened.

http://youtu.be/y-UvDgTUmHQ

[MichaelCheazley]

That game in Miami last year (not season) was awesome. Wade took it upon himself to try and defend Kobe the last 5 or so minutes of the game...this is what happened.

http://youtu.be/y-UvDgTUmHQ
Awesome game
-Kobe hitting random ridiculous buzzer shots
-Qrich goin OFF
-Wade being wade

[DMAVS41]

i don't think you will find much statistical evidence either way to separate them.

it comes down to personal preference in my opinion. i prefer wade...just think he's a slightly better overall player and would rather play with him than kobe.

i of course have no issue with anyone taking kobe....makes sense as well.

but anyone acting like its not close is just absurd. we just got done watching them play in the same era in their primes for the last 7 or so years.

[AlphaWolf24]

i don't think you will find much statistical evidence either way to separate them.

it comes down to personal preference in my opinion. i prefer wade...just think he's a slightly better overall player and would rather play with him than kobe.

i of course have no issue with anyone taking kobe....makes sense as well.

but anyone acting like its not close is just absurd. we just got done watching them play in the same era in their primes for the last 7 or so years.




Yes we watched them in the same era.....and Kobe was voted player of the generation by a Landslide!!!...it wasn't even close...

again , no one agrees with except the people that share your laptop.....


next

[RRR3]

Yes we watched them in the same era.....and Kobe was voted player of the generation by a Landslide!!!...it wasn't even close...

again , no one agrees with except the people that share your laptop.....


next
I see omegamutt24 and his loyal pack of Kobe ballslurpers are in heat again.

[DMAVS41]

Yes we watched them in the same era.....and Kobe was voted player of the generation by a Landslide!!!...it wasn't even close...

again , no one agrees with except the people that share your laptop.....


next

i would hope we could have a more accurate conversation than the masses. i believe they voted lebron over duncan and shaq as well.

kobe is a great player, but he's not the player of the post mj generation. that would be a battle between shaq and duncan. and then once again, once lebron and wade came into the league....he's done little to nothing to separate himself from them.

it was pretty clear that kobe was worse than both or one of shaq/duncan from about 99 through 05.....then wade/lebron came in and from about 06 to present its been debatable those years.

one of the best players of his generation? of course. the player of this generation? hardly.

next.

[catch24]

i don't think you will find much statistical evidence either way to separate them.

it comes down to personal preference in my opinion. i prefer wade...just think he's a slightly better overall player and would rather play with him than kobe.

i of course have no issue with anyone taking kobe....makes sense as well.

but anyone acting like its not close is just absurd. we just got done watching them play in the same era in their primes for the last 7 or so years.

Definitely. They're about as 1A/1B you can get. Their h2h games have been really fun to watch too.

2006 matchup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8XVPptZmeA)

2008 matchup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlrqnRZDrBw)

2009 matchup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Fk2pEmE48)

That 2007 X-mas game where Wade dropped 40+ was great too.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Yeah they are pretty similar statistics wise. I prefer Kobe, but I like Wade as well. I just like Kobe's game and intangibles more.

Has Kobe been the better player over the last decade? Of course since Wade didn't even come into the league until 2003. Obviously Kobe has had more time to be the better player in the last decade.

The reason people rank Wade over Kobe now is because Wade's production last year was better than Kobe's. Does that necessarily mean Wade is a more skilled player than Kobe? No, I don't think he is. But the production is what people look at. And last season, Kobe didn't produce as well as Wade.

[Crown&Coke]

7th year Kobe Bryant vs Detroit Pistons 2004 Finals
http://gyazo.com/e3185f81ac915109fa9f20ca704bce1c.png


2nd Year Dwyane Wade vs Detroit Pistons 2005 Playoffs
http://gyazo.com/5f6df94bab08bf3bf835dfbe350fdc7a.png


3rd Year Dwyane Wade vs Detroit Pistons 2006 Playoffs
http://gyazo.com/27848e985e732f349c0a3699b6e2cf4f.png

http://i54.tinypic.com/2ypjf40.jpg

those were different Pistons after 04, same team (04 and 05 same coach as Flip took over in 06 I think), different rules, different defensive prowless

[Crown&Coke]

I would take a 25 year old Kobe over a 25 year old Wade everyday.

Wade is amazing, but Kobe is my personal choice. Only knock on Kobe I have, down by 2, 10 seconds left, everyone knows 25 year old Kobe is taking the shot, not matter if there are 7 defenders hanging off his shooting arm. But thats also why I pick Kobe, he believes he can do anything. That belief separates great from legendary

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

those were different Pistons after 04, same team (04 and 05 same coach as Flip took over in 06 I think), different rules, different defensive prowless

Yeah people forget the defensive rule changes that took place AFTER Kobe played against those Pistons. Not to mention the fact they were older.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah people forget the defensive rule changes that took place AFTER Kobe played against those Pistons. Not to mention the fact they were older.

true. good points. but i also think its silly to just dismiss it. along with how we've seen wade play against the celtics as well. wade destroyed them in 10....playing much better than kobe against them with far less help.

can't ignore stuff like that.

[Jan95]

Stat whore

[Yao Ming's Foot]

i don't think you will find much statistical evidence either way to separate them.

it comes down to personal preference in my opinion. i prefer wade...just think he's a slightly better overall player and would rather play with him than kobe.

i of course have no issue with anyone taking kobe....makes sense as well.

but anyone acting like its not close is just absurd. we just got done watching them play in the same era in their primes for the last 7 or so years.

It's not close. History has already been written.


2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)

vs


2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)

:confusedshrug:

[Crown&Coke]

true. good points. but i also think its silly to just dismiss it. along with how we've seen wade play against the celtics as well. wade destroyed them in 10....playing much better than kobe against them with far less help.

can't ignore stuff like that.


this is the one thing us Kobetards can't refute, at all. They went up against the exact same defense and while Kobe had glimmers of good games offensively (based on shooting percentages) while Wade absolutely destroyed that defense (and won a game all by himself) while his low post offense was non-existent as JO got demolished by everyone who guarded him and Beas was a jump shooter the whole series.

Only thing I can think of is that Celtics defense is geared toward keeping people out of the paint, and a younger more athletic Wade said "FKKK it, Im getting into that damn paint no matter what" and just bullied everyone who tried to stop him, while Kobe said "FKKK it, Im taking what the defense gives me"

[DevilsAssassin]

It's not close. History has already been written.


2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)

vs


2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)

:confusedshrug:

Kobe Bryant being named to 6 All NBA Defense 1ST TEAM in 8 years shows you how much of a joke that award is.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

this is the one thing us Kobetards can't refute, at all. They went up against the exact same defense and while Kobe had glimmers of good games offensively (based on shooting percentages) while Wade absolutely destroyed that defense (and won a game all by himself) while his low post offense was non-existent as JO got demolished by everyone who guarded him and Beas was a jump shooter the whole series.

Only thing I can think of is that Celtics defense is geared toward keeping people out of the paint, and a younger more athletic Wade said "FKKK it, Im getting into that damn paint no matter what" and just bullied everyone who tried to stop him, while Kobe said "FKKK it, Im taking what the defense gives me"

Good job. I'm sure he was really excited about watching his highlights after getting bounced in 5 games in the first round.

[DMAVS41]

It's not close. History has already been written.


2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)

vs


2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-NBA (2nd)

:confusedshrug:


yea...its kind of sad though. while i do have a problem with some of those honors kobe has.....its more upsetting that wade will forever be severely under-rated all time by all nba and all defense honors. they just aren't accurate in my opinion.

i just don't see how any objective person could possibly give kobe all defense over wade this year. kobe's defense was really bad most of the year actually.....

check this out...the actual data does not support kobe anywhere close to the defender some think he is:

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

stinks when the biased and perception based opinions of people write nba history

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe Bryant being named to 6 All NBA Defense 1ST TEAM in 8 years shows you how much of a joke that award is.

:cry:

[DMAVS41]

Good job. I'm sure he was really excited about watching his highlights after getting bounced in 5 games in the first round.

and that is on wade somehow? why can't kobe fans grasp how important teams are?

what happened to kobe from 05 to 07? kobe couldn't even make the playoffs with a team better than what wade had in 10...

odom and butler and they didn't even sniff the playoffs....LOL

[DevilsAssassin]

yea...its kind of sad though. while i do have a problem with some of those honors kobe has.....its more upsetting that wade will forever be severely under-rated all time by all nba and all defense honors. they just aren't accurate in my opinion.

i just don't see how any objective person could possibly give kobe all defense over wade this year. kobe's defense was really bad most of the year actually.....

check this out...the actual data does not support kobe anywhere close to the defender some think he is:

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/


stinks when the biased and perception based opinions of people write nba history
Alright, I’m going to go back to the +/- statistics. I understand not everyone is sold on them, but just keep what they say in the back of your mind, and understand that I wouldn’t be writing this piece if the evidence wasn’t so obvious.

First, let’s look at the regularized adjusted +/- (RAPM) for this year alone. There is a decent amount of error when looking at this sample size, but it’s a good starting place. Here are the top 20 players according to the amount of love they got in All-Defensive team votes this year, sorted from best to worst by defensive RAPM:

http://asubstituteforwar.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/defrapm1011.jpg


Kobe’s there at the bottom. It is well to note that there are others not terribly far away from him. But also important to note that none of them made All-Defensive 1st team, and only 1 of them made 2nd team. That would be Joakim Noah whose rating might be particularly suspect because of the remarkable resilience the Tom Thibodeau defense in Chicago has shown. Literally, Noah quite possibly looks a lot better by this metric in any other situations.

Okay, on to the bigger chart. What I’ve done is taken the 20 defenders who come to my mind as being celebrated defensively in recent years. I won’t claim that these are THE 20 defenders to look at for such a comparison, but again, it’s at least a great starting place.

You’ll see I include 4 sortings:

First, these 20 players sorted first by most All-Defensive 1st teams, then by 2nd teams. If I’ve left anyone off who has received several of these accolades in the last few years, it was a mistake, and you should let me know.

:applause: :applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

yea...its kind of sad though. while i do have a problem with some of those honors kobe has.....its more upsetting that wade will forever be severely under-rated all time by all nba and all defense honors. they just aren't accurate in my opinion.

i just don't see how any objective person could possibly give kobe all defense over wade this year. kobe's defense was really bad most of the year actually.....

check this out...the actual data does not support kobe anywhere close to the defender some think he is:

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

stinks when the biased and perception based opinions of people write nba history

I've seen that before. How can you say an award is undeserved by citing a statistic that has never been used before in selecting all defensive teams? Kobe's awards are completely in line with the historical precedence already set by 40 years of history.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

and that is on wade somehow? why can't kobe fans grasp how important teams are?

what happened to kobe from 05 to 07? kobe couldn't even make the playoffs with a team better than what wade had in 10...

odom and butler and they didn't even sniff the playoffs....LOL

Do you see Kobe fans getting hyped about 5 rings, 7 finals appearances and oh yeah he put really good numbers in his first round flameouts against the Suns. :oldlol: Its embarrassing

[Deuce Bigalow]

5,280 Playoffs Points - 3rd Alltime
Only player in NBA History to score 600+ points in 3 consecutive Postseasons
5 Championships
2 Finals MVPs

Kobe's stats without Shaq
28.9ppg, 5.6rpg, 5.1apg, 45.5%FG
29.8ppg, 5.7rpg, 5.4apg, 46.7%FG Playoff average (not including 2011)
2 Championships
3 Finals
2 Finals MVPs
MVP

Kobe Bryant's stats as a starter
27.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.1 apg, 45.6 fg%

Kobe's playoff runs are better than Wade's as well

2001
29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg
33.3 ppg, 7 rpg, 7 apg in 01 WCF
35 ppg, 9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 01 WCSF

2002
26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg

2008
30.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.6 apg

2009
30.1 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg
34 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.8 apg in 09 WCF
32.4 ppg, 5.4 apg, 7.4 apg in 09 Finals
1 of 5 players in NBA History to average 30+ ppg on a championship team in the playoffs

2010
29.2 ppg, 6 rpg, 5.5 apg
33.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 8.3 apg in 10 WCF

Lets not forget that Kobe in a season or two will eclipse the 30,000 Point mark, which only 4 player have ever done, and Kobe would be the youngest to do it

[DMAVS41]

Do you see Kobe fans getting hyped about 5 rings, 7 finals appearances and oh yeah he put really good numbers in his first round flameouts against the Suns. :oldlol: Its embarrassing

the suns are a far cry from the celtics mate.

you can't just ignore things. both wade and kobe played the same team in 10. wade was considerably better.

both wade and kobe played the same team in 11. wade was considerably better.

kobe/shaq played the pistons in 04. the next year wade/shaq did. wade (especially) was much better than kobe.

i'm not saying to put a ton of emphasis on that, but it matters. you can't just ignore how a player plays because his team sucks.

i can't believe people aren't logical enough to see how much team strength matters for winning. dirk proves that this year.....although kobe stans and the championship stans want to believe that the mavs won all because of dirk. just absurd.

i think kobe was probably at his best in 08....lost in the finals. why? in no way was kobe a better player the following 2 years. his team was better.

not giving wade credit for how he played some years because he didn't win is so damn stupid.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

the suns are a far cry from the celtics mate.

you can't just ignore things. both wade and kobe played the same team in 10. wade was considerably better.

both wade and kobe played the same team in 11. wade was considerably better.

kobe/shaq played the pistons in 04. the next year wade/shaq did. wade (especially) was much better than kobe.

i'm not saying to put a ton of emphasis on that, but it matters. you can't just ignore how a player plays because his team sucks.

i can't believe people aren't logical enough to see how much team strength matters for winning. dirk proves that this year.....although kobe stans and the championship stans want to believe that the mavs won all because of dirk. just absurd.

i think kobe was probably at his best in 08....lost in the finals. why? in no way was kobe a better player the following 2 years. his team was better.

not giving wade credit for how he played some years because he didn't win is so damn stupid.

I give credit to Wade for being an all star and an elite superstar player. There is just no reality to the opinion that he has been neck and neck with Kobe on any level in this decade. Kobe has been deemed superior nearly every year. A single defensive team award carries more weight than PER, Win Shares, EFF, +/- , wins produced or whatever else manipulation of box scores data is in the future to 99% of the NBA world. That's reality whether you care to admit it or not.

[DMAVS41]

I give credit to Wade for being an all star and an elite superstar player. There is just no reality to the opinion that he has been neck and neck with Kobe on any level in this decade. Kobe has been deemed superior nearly every year. A single defensive team award carries more weight than PER, Win Shares, EFF, +/- , wins produced or whatever else manipulation of box scores data is in the future to 99% of the NBA world. That's reality whether you care to admit it or not.

could not disagree more.

did you read the evidence on kobe's defense. some metrics have him outside the top 200 over the last 7 years on defense.

why are these stats and metrics always only biased against kobe? why are guys like howard, duncan, kg, lebron, wallace, deng, battier, bowen, camby, and artest...etc....why are all of those guys at the top of these metrics and kobe at the bottom?

why is wade generally a higher rated defender on most defensive metrics than kobe if kobe is easily better?

you want opinion based metrics to trump objective metrics. makes no sense. i've never seen a player's fans ask everyone to ignore more damning evidence than with kobe.

throw out 30% of his career. ignore all stats and metrics unless they favor him. only talk about opinion based pools or honors. only talk about championships and not level of play throughout.

its you that does the manipulating. sorry, but its the truth.

[RRR3]

could not disagree more.

did you read the evidence on kobe's defense. some metrics have him outside the top 200 over the last 7 years on defense.

why are these stats and metrics always only biased against kobe? why are guys like howard, duncan, kg, lebron, wallace, deng, battier, bowen, camby, and artest...etc....why are all of those guys at the top of these metrics and kobe at the bottom?

why is wade generally a higher rated defender on most defensive metrics than kobe if kobe is easily better?

you want opinion based metrics to trump objective metrics. makes no sense. i've never seen a player's fans ask everyone to ignore more damning evidence than with kobe.

throw out 30% of his career. ignore all stats and metrics unless they favor him. only talk about opinion based pools or honors. only talk about championships and not level of play throughout.

its you that does the manipulating. sorry, but its the truth.

Yao Ming's foot should change his screen name to Kobe Bryant's Balls. :roll:

[Crown&Coke]

and that is on wade somehow? why can't kobe fans grasp how important teams are?

what happened to kobe from 05 to 07? kobe couldn't even make the playoffs with a team better than what wade had in 10...

odom and butler and they didn't even sniff the playoffs....LOL

well LO torn his labrum almost mid season that year. Which effectively killed any shot at anything. And other than Caron, LO and Kobe that 05 Lakers team sucked donkey balls. Vlade Divac at age 85 or something was slated to be the starting 5 man. Next two years they got into the playoffs and got rocked by PHX as a low seed in the tougher Western conference.

07-08 almost the same team plus Derek Fisher and Bynum had the best record in the West until Bynum went down and the Pau deal happened.

[D-Wade316]

Yao Ming's foot should change his screen name to Kobe Bryant's Balls. :roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

well LO torn his labrum almost mid season that year. Which effectively killed any shot at anything. And other than Caron, LO and Kobe that 05 Lakers team sucked donkey balls. Vlade Divac at age 85 or something was slated to be the starting 5 man. Next two years they got into the playoffs and got rocked by PHX as a low seed in the tougher Western conference.

07-08 almost the same team plus Derek Fisher and Bynum had the best record in the West until Bynum went down and the Pau deal happened.

you make my point for me....can't ignore circumstances. why bring all that up for kobe and not wade.

how about just being somewhat fair? how about not disregarding wade going nuts against the celtics in 10 because they lost. and if you do....then bring up kobe missing the playoffs..etc.

be balanced. don't just only count what suits your agenda. i don't see anyone on the wade side disregarding anything kobe has done without evidence to the contrary. with kobe fans its always some bs excuse.....celtics weren't trying against wade....etc.

here is a better way to ask about the defensive stuff. how about kobe fans use something other than all defense as proof that kobe deserves to be considered a better defender than wade over the last few years?

[D-Wade316]

5,280 Playoffs Points - 3rd Alltime
Only player in NBA History to score 600+ points in 3 consecutive Postseasons
5 Championships
2 Finals MVPs

Kobe's stats without Shaq
28.9ppg, 5.6rpg, 5.1apg, 45.5%FG
29.8ppg, 5.7rpg, 5.4apg, 46.7%FG Playoff average (not including 2011)
2 Championships
3 Finals
2 Finals MVPs
MVP

Kobe Bryant's stats as a starter
27.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.1 apg, 45.6 fg%

Kobe's playoff runs are better than Wade's as well

2001
29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg
33.3 ppg, 7 rpg, 7 apg in 01 WCF
35 ppg, 9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 01 WCSF

2002
26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg

2008
30.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.6 apg

2009
30.1 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg
34 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.8 apg in 09 WCF
32.4 ppg, 5.4 apg, 7.4 apg in 09 Finals
1 of 5 players in NBA History to average 30+ ppg on a championship team in the playoffs

2010
29.2 ppg, 6 rpg, 5.5 apg
33.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 8.3 apg in 10 WCF

Lets not forget that Kobe in a season or two will eclipse the 30,000 Point mark, which only 4 player have ever done, and Kobe would be the youngest to do it
Regular season:
26.81ppg on 19.14fga, 48.83fg%, 50.46efg%, 57.25ts%
25.4ppg on 18.4fga, 48.5fg%, 50.0efg%, 56.7ts%
5.34rpg
4.9rpg
6.54apg
6.1apg

Playoffs:
27.47ppg on 19.43fga, 48.97fg%, 51.25efg%, 58.17ts%
25.9ppg on 18.77fga%, 48.3fg%, 50.2efg%, 57.0ts%
6.11rpg
5.7rpg
5.54apg
5.6apg

Bolded ones are without his rookie year, 2007 playoffs, and 2007-2008 regular season.




And lol @ Kobe's playoff runs being better than Wade's 06 run
28.4ppg, 5.9rpg, 5.7apg, 2.2spg, 1.1bpg, 59.3ts%, 51.2efg% in the 06 Playoffs
34.7ppg, 7.8rpg, 3.8apg, 2.7spg, 1.0bpg, 57.2ts%, 47.8efg% in the 06 Finals (Greatest Finals Performance)
26.8ppg, 5.2rpg, 5.5apg, 1.8spg, 1.5bpg, 80.1ts%, 76.6efg% in the 06 ECF

[Yao Ming's Foot]

could not disagree more.

did you read the evidence on kobe's defense. some metrics have him outside the top 200 over the last 7 years on defense.

why are these stats and metrics always only biased against kobe? why are guys like howard, duncan, kg, lebron, wallace, deng, battier, bowen, camby, and artest...etc....why are all of those guys at the top of these metrics and kobe at the bottom?

why is wade generally a higher rated defender on most defensive metrics than kobe if kobe is easily better?

you want opinion based metrics to trump objective metrics. makes no sense. i've never seen a player's fans ask everyone to ignore more damning evidence than with kobe.

throw out 30% of his career. ignore all stats and metrics unless they favor him. only talk about opinion based pools or honors. only talk about championships and not level of play throughout.

its you that does the manipulating. sorry, but its the truth.

I never said that the stats were biased. I said they are unimportant to the decision makers that actually matter in this game. All defensive teams have a bias towards big name players. The problem is we are not comparing Kobe's defense to Shane Battier's defense. We are comparing him to Dwayne Wade and every other past, present a future superstar. They all have big names too.

You have never even presented a single case as to why you wouldn't consider a player's age on their career numbers. You just whine that it "helps" Kobe. Is it a reasonable request to make a meaningful comparison or not? If its not say why it isn't. Tell me why you think a player should be punished for entering the league at an earlier age.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Regular season:
26.81ppg on 19.14fga, 48.83fg%, 50.46efg%, 57.25ts%
25.4ppg on 18.4fga, 48.5fg%, 50.0efg%, 56.7ts%
5.34rpg
4.9rpg
6.54apg
6.1apg

Playoffs:
27.47ppg on 19.43fga, 48.97fg%, 51.25efg%, 58.17ts%
25.9ppg on 18.77fga%, 48.3fg%, 50.2efg%, 57.0ts%
6.11rpg
5.7rpg
5.54apg
5.6apg

Bolded ones are without his rookie year, 2007 playoffs, and 2007-2008 regular season.

And lol @ Kobe's playoff runs being better than Wade's 06 run
28.4ppg, 5.9rpg, 5.7apg, 2.2spg, 1.1bpg, 59.3ts%, 51.2efg% in the 06 Playoffs
34.7ppg, 7.8rpg, 3.8apg, 2.7spg, 1.0bpg, 57.2ts%, 47.8efg% in the 06 Finals (Greatest Finals Performance)
26.8ppg, 5.2rpg, 5.5apg, 1.8spg, 1.5bpg, 80.1ts%, 76.6efg% in the 06 ECF

:oldlol:

1 playoff run and 2 series is better than Kobe's career? :oldlol:

Playoff AVERAGES
2001 - 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg
2002 - 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg
2008 - 30.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.6 apg
2009 - 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg
2010 - 29.2 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg

All those runs are either a championship or Finals appearances
Kobe's playoff runs >> Wade's

[RRR3]

:oldlol:

1 playoff run and 2 series is better than Kobe's career? :oldlol:

2001 - 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg
2002 - 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg
2008 - 30.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.6 apg
2009 - 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg
2010 - 29.2 ppg, 6 rpg, 5.5 apg

All those runs are either a championship or Finals apperance
Kobe's playoff runs >> Wade's

Too bad Kobe has never had a Finals performance close to Wade's. :rolleyes: I thought Kobe fans thought the finals meant everything? :lol

[pegasus]

One's go-to-move is a pump fake to draw a foul, and the other's... I don't know, take a pick out of 100.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Too bad Kobe has never had a Finals performance close to Wade's. :rolleyes: I thought Kobe fans thought the finals meant everything? :lol

16.2 Free throws per game in that series

and one series with a shit load of freethrows doesnt mean hes better

Kobe's 2001 playoff run is statistically better than anything wade has done, and Kobe did that with Shaq :oldlol:

I dont even need to bring up Kobe's 2008-2010 Playoffs

[pegasus]

Too bad Kobe has never had a Finals performance close to Wade's. :rolleyes: I thought Kobe fans thought the finals meant everything? :lol

2009 - 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg

That's better than anything Wade has ever accomplished without the refs.

[Deuce Bigalow]

2009 - 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg

That's better than anything Wade has ever accomplished without the refs.


Kobe's 2009 Finals was 32.4 ppg, 5.4 apg, 7.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.4 bpg
1st player since Jerry West to average atleast 32 points and 7 assists in a finals series

[RRR3]

2009 - 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg

That's better than anything Wade has ever accomplished without the refs.
As if the Refs aren't in love with Kobe. :rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

I never said that the stats were biased. I said they are unimportant to the decision makers that actually matter in this game. All defensive teams have a bias towards big name players. The problem is we are not comparing Kobe's defense to Shane Battier's defense. We are comparing him to Dwayne Wade and every other past, present a future superstar. They all have big names too.

You have never even presented a single case as to why you wouldn't consider a player's age on their career numbers. You just whine that it "helps" Kobe. Is it a reasonable request to make a meaningful comparison or not? If its not say why it isn't. Tell me why you think a player should be punished for entering the league at an earlier age.

it all goes together. why should wade be punished for entering the game at a later age? the first thing you hear about wade is his longevity...how he'll never match certain players.

here is another one...shouldn't lebron get huge points over kobe for entering the game at a similar age and just being much better than him right off the bat? put young Lebron with Shaq for those 8 years and they might have won 5 or 6 titles because Lebron was simply a far superior player than Kobe over his first 4 or 5 years on the whole.

and we are comparing wade to kobe on defense...why is it that wade usually trumps him on defensive stats? why is it that just watching them it becomes clear which player has been a better defender lately? why can't you support you stances on any of this stuff with actual objective measures? why is it always about the opinions of other people?

its the same bullshit about kobe on game winners. all the coaches, gm's, and players voted kobe and billups the two best coming into last year.

billups is actually one of the worst game winning shot makers of the last 8 years. he's something like 3 of 27....just awful.

kobe is good, but nowhere near the best. he's around a 30% maker in the regular season and is a proven 7 of 25 in the playoffs. players like dirk and melo and a whole host of others have been much better in these situations. not to mention his lack of passing and how his team performs rather poorly in these situations. those are actual facts. things proven by data.

so does that mean that we should ignore decades of evidence in favor of the perceptions of others?

melo didn't even get mentioned in the top 5 in a recent poll about taking a shot with the game on the line. he's been by far the best game winning shot maker in the NBA over the last 8 years. by far.

melo has made somewhere around 50% of his game winners so far in his career. i think he currently has 25 or 26 makes now. kobe has around 40 makes on his career and comes in around 31% or so. so not only is melo far and away more likely to make the shot, but he's on pace to actually make more than kobe all time.

yet nobody even gave melo a mention. wasn't even in the top 5. LOL...once again kobe coming out on top of something with nothing to back it up. standard.

[Crown&Coke]

you make my point for me....can't ignore circumstances. why bring all that up for kobe and not wade.

how about just being somewhat fair? how about not disregarding wade going nuts against the celtics in 10 because they lost. and if you do....then bring up kobe missing the playoffs..etc.

be balanced. don't just only count what suits your agenda. i don't see anyone on the wade side disregarding anything kobe has done without evidence to the contrary. with kobe fans its always some bs excuse.....celtics weren't trying against wade....etc.

here is a better way to ask about the defensive stuff. how about kobe fans use something other than all defense as proof that kobe deserves to be considered a better defender than wade over the last few years?

I have no agenda, Kobe aint even my favorite player in the game and never has. I do think he is a great player, but I don't prop dude up.

I did mention Wade had a superior series individually against the Celts. And the fact LA missed the playoffs and got bounced in a tougher western conference is a bit misleading in terms of comparing the two. Without Miami feasting on those lame bottom dwellers in the east, they can just as easily miss the playoffs if they were out west.

Defensively, Kobe has dropped off significantly, he has become a possession defender and slacks off the balance of the game. I aint arguing dude should be 1st team all defense, cause quite frankly, Tony Allen should have gotten it over both Wade and Kobe because its all politics. And the fact Wade gets blocks and steals doesn't make me believe he is a tremendous defender, sorry, it just doesn't. Shane Battier had a better defensive season without getting those same steals and blocks numbers.

[D-Wade316]

:oldlol:

1 playoff run and 2 series is better than Kobe's career? :oldlol:

Playoff AVERAGES
2001 - 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg
2002 - 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg
2008 - 30.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.6 apg
2009 - 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg
2010 - 29.2 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg

All those runs are either a championship or Finals appearances
Kobe's playoff runs >> Wade's
2001 - 46.9fg%, 55.5ts%, 48.5efg%:roll:
2002 - 43.4fg%, 51.1ts%, 45.9efg%:roll: :roll:
2008 - 47.9fg%, 57.7ts%, 51.4efg% :roll: (Punked by the Celtics)
2009 - 45.7fg%, 56.4ts%, 49.2efg% :roll:
2010 - 45.8fg%, 56.7ts%, 50.6efg% :roll:

[pegasus]

As if the Refs aren't in love with Kobe. :rolleyes:

You must have not watched any LA games in the last 3 years or so. It's almost like they expect him to beat everyone without getting any of the 50/50 calls (which he did twice in the last three years).:pimp:

[D-Wade316]

Kobe's 2009 Finals was 32.4 ppg, 5.4 apg, 7.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.4 bpg
1st player since Jerry West to average atleast 32 and 7 in a finals series
:roll:

34ppg, 7rpg (2006 Finals)

[Deuce Bigalow]

2001 - 46.9fg%, 55.5ts%, 48.5efg%:roll:
2002 - 43.4fg%, 51.1ts%, 45.9efg%:roll: :roll:
2008 - 47.9fg%, 57.7ts%, 51.4efg% :roll: (Punked by the Celtics)
2009 - 45.7fg%, 56.4ts%, 49.2efg% :roll:
2010 - 45.8fg%, 56.7ts%, 50.6efg% :roll:

other than 02
that is good efficiency, Kobe takes around 4 3-pointers a game and a majority of his shots are perimeter jumpshots
Are you like 10 years old?

[catch24]

:roll:

Since when has shooting the league average been hysterical? :confusedshrug:

[Deuce Bigalow]

:roll:

34ppg, 7rpg (2006 Finals)

32.4 ppg, 7.4 ASSISTS PER GAME (2009 Finals)

[DMAVS41]

I have no agenda, Kobe aint even my favorite player in the game and never has. I do think he is a great player, but I don't prop dude up.

I did mention Wade had a superior series individually against the Celts. And the fact LA missed the playoffs and got bounced in a tougher western conference is a bit misleading in terms of comparing the two. Without Miami feasting on those lame bottom dwellers in the east, they can just as easily miss the playoffs if they were out west.

Defensively, Kobe has dropped off significantly, he has become a possession defender and slacks off the balance of the game. I aint arguing dude should be 1st team all defense, cause quite frankly, Tony Allen should have gotten it over both Wade and Kobe because its all politics. And the fact Wade gets blocks and steals doesn't make me believe he is a tremendous defender, sorry, it just doesn't. Shane Battier had a better defensive season without getting those same steals and blocks numbers.

its not just blocks and steals. wade is easily a better team defender right now. he basically protected the paint for the heat this year. he and lebron were all over the floor defensively. its shows up in pretty much every defensive metric there is.

and that is just for the regular season. how anyone could have watched the playoffs and thought kobe was better defensively is beyond me. he got torched....its funny how every kobe stan complains about the lakers getting drilled by threes all the time.

where the **** was kobe on defense? why didn't he do anything to slow any one of the mavs perimeter players down? its like they forget that their idol plays sg...a perimeter position.....responsible for defending the three point line.

but no, lets just ignore more evidence and come up with excuses and more bs to absolve kobe of everything as usual.

i just love how there are new stats and metrics and advanced number crunching coming out. love to see my opinions backed up with hard data. kobe fans can keep holding on to myths and legends.

"the best closer in the game"...."the best player with the game on the line"..."still a great defender"...

all hilarious to remotely objective people.

and if he gets any of those things back next year....you won't hear/see me ignore what is actually going on in favor of perceptions. its about what actually happens. not what people thing. its sad on a forum like this we can't even discuss what is actually happening on the court.

[D-Wade316]

other than 02
that is good efficiency, Kobe takes around 4 3-pointers a game and a majority of his shots are perimeter jumpshots
Are you like 10 years old?
Taking 3's falls for the trap of the defense. In fact the defense would like the ball handler to take 3s because it's a low percentage shot.

As if Kobe is a lights out 3-pt shooter. :facepalm
33.9 - rs
33.5 - ps

[Bladers]

7th year Kobe Bryant vs Detroit Pistons 2004 Finals

2nd Year Dwyane Wade vs Detroit Pistons 2005 Playoffs

3rd Year Dwyane Wade vs Detroit Pistons 2006 Playoffs


LOL Their defensve rating weren't even close.
The detroit pistons 2004 had the best DRTG of ALL-TIMES.
Plus they scattered numerous defensive record.

2005 and 2006 pistons weren't even close. Nice try though.

[Bladers]

LOL Let's forget how wade has constantly faced the worst defensive team in the finals.

The Dallas mavs are the worst defensive team to appear in finals in the last two decades. Plus also the worst team to appear in the finals in the last decade PERIOD!

Yeah wade faced a 62 in three quarters mavs in 2006 courtesy of the boy you're bashing (kobe).

[Deuce Bigalow]

Taking 3's falls for the trap of the defense. In fact the defense would like the ball handler to take 3s because it's a low percentage shot.

As if Kobe is a lights out 3-pt shooter. :facepalm
33.9 - rs
33.5 - ps

:facepalm

perimeter shots and 3 pointers, Have you seen Kobe play?
46% is good, got them to 3 finals and won them 2 championships

[Deuce Bigalow]

LOL Let's forget how wade has constantly faced the worst defensive team in the finals.

The Dallas mavs are the worst defensive team to appear in finals in the last two decades. Plus also the worst team to appear in the finals in the last decade PERIOD!

when wade averaged 34.7 ppg in the finals vs the Heat that year, people forget that Kobe dropped 62 points in 3 quarters, outscoring the Mavs 62-61 by himself that same year
arguably the most impressive scoring perfomance ever, he outscored a team for 3 quarters for gods sake

[Deuce Bigalow]

D-Wade316, watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCeg0-g-XdI&feature=related

[D-Wade316]

LOL Their defensve rating weren't even close.
The detroit pistons 2004 had the best DRTG of ALL-TIMES.
Plus they scattered numerous defensive record.

2005 and 2006 pistons weren't even close. Nice try though.
Wade in his rookie year against the 04 Pistons:
4pts, 1-9
15pts, 6-9
17pts, 7-14
7pts, 3-6

[Bladers]

Wade in his rookie year against the 04 Pistons:
4pts, 1-9 L
15pts, 6-9 L
17pts, 7-14 L
7pts, 3-6 L

10ppg... :roll: :roll:

EXACTLY!

[catch24]

Next thing you know, D-Wade316 will say, Mcgrady in 2003 was inefficient. He shot 46%! What an INEFFICIENT chucker!!!

What a joke :oldlol:

[D-Wade316]

:facepalm

perimeter shots and 3 pointers, Have you seen Kobe play?
46% is good, got them to 3 finals and won them 2 championships
No. 46% is not good, especially for a guy who is being compared to Jordan.

Kobe shots inefficiently because he has poor shot selection. Why take 3s when he can easily penetrate the rim and score efficiently? Why not stop jacking the ball?

[Bladers]

No. 46% is not good, especially for a guy who is being compared to Jordan.

Kobe shots inefficiently because he has poor shot selection. Why take 3s when he can easily penetrate the rim and score efficiently? Why not stop jacking the ball?

Lets talk about how wade can't shoot a jumper to save his life...
Let's talk about dwhistle... jumping into people to get free points.

[D-Wade316]

LOL Let's forget how wade has constantly faced the worst defensive team in the finals.

The Dallas mavs are the worst defensive team to appear in finals in the last two decades. Plus also the worst team to appear in the finals in the last decade PERIOD!

Yeah wade faced a 62 in three quarters mavs in 2006 courtesy of the boy you're bashing (kobe).
34ppg in the Finals across 6 games>1 useless scoring performance in the RS. Kobe can't replicate that in the PS.

[Cali Syndicate]

so if you dont factor in young age then your saying maturity has nothing to do with basketball level and skills? i wonder why players get better as they get older and decline when they get too old.

What are you talking about?

This is what I am saying. I will try to make it as simple as possible for you.

Maturity is not determined by age.

You're right, OBVIOUSLY as a player gets older especially into their 30's they are more mature than they were during their early 20's. That has to do more with with experience than with age anyways. But that's beside the point.

We are talking about a 20 year old and a 22 year old.

So....
Isn't it possible that Kobe at 20 years old after spending 2 years in an NBA program can be just as mentally prepared and matured as Wade with 2 years at Marquette at age 22 was?

Or you can answer my other question

Would Kobe have averaged 28ppg had he went to college and came into the league at 22 years of age?

[D-Wade316]

Next thing you know, D-Wade316 will say, Mcgrady in 2003 was inefficient. He shot 46%! What an INEFFICIENT chucker!!!

What a joke :oldlol:
Not really. 56.4ts%, 50.5efg%. That's great for a volume scorer.

[Bladers]

34ppg in the Finals across 6 games>1 useless scoring performance in the RS. Kobe can't replicate that in the PS.

What part of the mavs are the worst defensive team to ever appear in the finals in the last two decades don't you understand? :hammerhead:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

it all goes together. why should wade be punished for entering the game at a later age? the first thing you hear about wade is his longevity...how he'll never match certain players.

here is another one...shouldn't lebron get huge points over kobe for entering the game at a similar age and just being much better than him right off the bat? put young Lebron with Shaq for those 8 years and they might have won 5 or 6 titles because Lebron was simply a far superior player than Kobe over his first 4 or 5 years on the whole.

and we are comparing wade to kobe on defense...why is it that wade usually trumps him on defensive stats? why is it that just watching them it becomes clear which player has been a better defender lately? why can't you support you stances on any of this stuff with actual objective measures? why is it always about the opinions of other people?

its the same bullshit about kobe on game winners. all the coaches, gm's, and players voted kobe and billups the two best coming into last year.

billups is actually one of the worst game winning shot makers of the last 8 years. he's something like 3 of 27....just awful.

kobe is good, but nowhere near the best. he's around a 30% maker in the regular season and is a proven 7 of 25 in the playoffs. players like dirk and melo and a whole host of others have been much better in these situations. not to mention his lack of passing and how his team performs rather poorly in these situations. those are actual facts. things proven by data.

so does that mean that we should ignore decades of evidence in favor of the perceptions of others?

melo didn't even get mentioned in the top 5 in a recent poll about taking a shot with the game on the line. he's been by far the best game winning shot maker in the NBA over the last 8 years. by far.

melo has made somewhere around 50% of his game winners so far in his career. i think he currently has 25 or 26 makes now. kobe has around 40 makes on his career and comes in around 31% or so. so not only is melo far and away more likely to make the shot, but he's on pace to actually make more than kobe all time.

yet nobody even gave melo a mention. wasn't even in the top 5. LOL...once again kobe coming out on top of something with nothing to back it up. standard.

How is Wade being punished for being injured and/or going to college? I can't create a legacy for him that doesn't exist.

I don't think you would hear anybody argue that teenage Kobe was better than teenage LeBron. LeBron's entire following is built on numbers at a young age. That's everything his legacy is built on. Numbers. Check the Stats. PER. How can I assume Lebron and Shaq are destined for 6 titles when LeBron, Wade and Bosh were destined for a 6 game humiliating finals exit.? 2010 #1 PER + 2010 #2 PER + 2010 #4 PER does not equal 2011 championship.

Wade doesn't trump him on defensive stats. They had identical opposing PER ratings the last year and Kobe was better the year before. Who did Wade shut down in the playoffs?

This is once again an example of stat guys coming late to the party and trying to take over the meaning off a word. Kobe's clutch reputation wasn't built on the back of a calculator it was etched in a playoff legacy matched by a selective few. AS IT HAS BEEN FOR EVERY OTHER PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY. What you perceive as special rules for judging Kobe are actually special rules that existed for judging players before Kobe ever stepped foot into the NBA. Nobody was investigating box scores with a fine toothed comb to determine if Jerry West's "Mr. Clutch" moniker could be proven by a scientific study.

[Deuce Bigalow]

34ppg in the Finals across 6 games>1 useless scoring performance in the RS. Kobe can't replicate that in the PS.

When a player outscores a team BY HIMSELF then you know that Wade's performance is not that great

[D-Wade316]

10ppg... :roll: :roll:

EXACTLY!
:facepalm Losing to the defending champs when your team isn't a title contender is a better feeling than losing to a highly favored matchup.

[Cali Syndicate]

fyi he played 3 years. do some research. Im not exactly saying that is the formula to go by, you still have to factor it in though to get a fair assessment of how good each player really is.

Kobe was 22 years old for the 2001 season.

18 years old in 97
19 years old in 98
20 years old in 99
21 years old in 00

That's 4 years buddy. And 2 as a full time starter.

[chazzy]

Not really. 56.4ts%, 50.5efg%. That's great for a volume scorer.
So..



2001 - 46.9fg%, 55.5ts%, 48.5efg%:roll:
2002 - 43.4fg%, 51.1ts%, 45.9efg%:roll:
2008 - 47.9fg%, 57.7ts%, 51.4efg% :roll: (Punked by the Celtics)
2009 - 45.7fg%, 56.4ts%, 49.2efg% :roll:
2010 - 45.8fg%, 56.7ts%, 50.6efg% :roll:
What? lol

[D-Wade316]

When a player outscores a team BY HIMSELF then you know that Wade's performance is not that great
Of course it's great, but he can't do it in 6 straight games.

:roll: @ Wade's performance not being great

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not really. 56.4ts%, 50.5efg%. That's great for a volume scorer.

Kobe TS% eFG%
2008 Playoffs - .577 .514
2009 Playoffs - .564 .492
2010 Playoffs - .567 .506

[Bladers]

What? lol

He is an idiot. Why hear ye him?

[D-Wade316]

So..



What? lol
I was laughing because in comparison with Wade's 06 run and 10 performance against the Celtics it isn't on par. I must say though that he did score efficiently in 08 and 10.

[Cali Syndicate]

Great players such as Jordan, Bird, Magic, Duncan(to name a few) that have stayed in college for 3-4 years never had a problem transitioning to the NBA

On the other hand players who come out of high school or college with 1 year experience do need time to develop.

Proof is in the putting!

Wade stayed at Marquette for 2 seasons. He was 22 years old as a rookie.

Kobe by age 22 had 4 seasons in the NBA, 2 of which he was a full time starter.

Who had the better learning curve?

And it's pudding not putting.

Would it be FAIR to compare Kobe's 5th season to Wade's rookie season just because they were both 22 years old?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Of course it's great, but he can't do it in 6 straight games.

:roll: @ Wade's performance not being great

its NOT that great
Kobe outscored the team by himself, by himself

[Kobe 4 The Win]

This is really interesting. Today I learned that if a star player turns the ball over it's his teammates fault.

[D-Wade316]

Kobe TS% eFG%
2008 Playoffs - .577 .514:applause:
2009 Playoffs - .564 .492:roll:
2010 Playoffs - .567 .506:applause:
Okay. Happy now?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Okay. Happy now?

Kobe became the 5th player to average 30+ ppg in a playoff run while winning a championship in 2009
lol at that

[Cali Syndicate]

i would hope we could have a more accurate conversation than the masses. i believe they voted lebron over duncan and shaq as well.

kobe is a great player, but he's not the player of the post mj generation. that would be a battle between shaq and duncan. and then once again, once lebron and wade came into the league....he's done little to nothing to separate himself from them.

it was pretty clear that kobe was worse than both or one of shaq/duncan from about 99 through 05.....then wade/lebron came in and from about 06 to present its been debatable those years.

one of the best players of his generation? of course. the player of this generation? hardly.

next.

Kobe has consistently been one of the best players of the league throughout the entire last decade, hence the consensus for player of the decade.

[Deuce Bigalow]

1. 1993 Michael Jordan - 35.1 ppg
2. 1992 Michael Jordan - 34.5 ppg
3. 1995 Hakeem Olajuwon - 33 ppg
4. 1998 Michael Jordan - 32.4 ppg
5. 1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 31.9 ppg
6. 1991 Michael Jordan - 31.1 ppg
7. 1997 Michael Jordan - 31.1 ppg
8. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal - 30.7 ppg
9. 1996 Michael Jordan - 30.7 ppg
10. 2001 Shaquille O'Neal - 30.4 ppg
11. 2009 Kobe Bryant - 30.2 ppg

[catch24]

Not really. 56.4ts%, 50.5efg%. That's great for a volume scorer.

How is averaging 30ppg on ~55-56% TS and 45-46 FG% 'bad' then? Stay consistent.

[Dizzle-2k7]

How the *** is Kobe only average 25 from 04-11? Every year he's had 28ish and a few 30+ including a 35ppg yr

[D-Wade316]

Kobe became the 5th player to average 30+ ppg in a playoff run while winning a championship in 2009
lol at that
30.2 - 23.0fga
28.4 - 19.2fga

3.8fga. That's how many more shots Kobe took just to surpass Wade's ppg.

[D-Wade316]

How is averaging 30ppg on ~55-56% TS and 45-46 FG% 'bad' then? Stay consistent.
Okay. I'll use efg% and ts% in my posts now.

[Deuce Bigalow]

30.2 - 23.0fga
28.4 - 19.2fga

3.8fga. That's how many more shots Kobe took just to surpass Wade's ppg.

3-pointers per game

Kobe's 2009 Playoffs: 4.6
Wade's 2006 Playoffs: 1.5

[D-Wade316]

3-pointers per game

Kobe's 2009 Playoffs: 4.6
Wade's 2006 Playoffs: 1.5
Not Wade's fault that he takes easier shots.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe in 2009 PO
WCF - 34 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.8 apg
Finals - 32.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 7.4 apg

Wade in 2006 PO
Finals vs the team Kobe outscored by himself
the rest are mediocre series

[TheMarkMadsen]

Op's stats are bullshit. Kobe's only averaged less that 26 ppg once from 04-11.
So please tell me how that averages out to 25 ppg :confusedshrug:

Dwayne Wade doesnt even believe he's better than Kobe Bryant so it's laughable that you do.

I love how majority of coache's in the NBA consider Kobe Bryant the best player in the leauge, not to mention majority of his peers/past legends consider Kobe the best player right now. He's one of the most respected players in NBA history in all NBA circles. ( that's actual NBA players, coaches and past players, not butt hurt Wade, Lebron, & suns fans)

When its all said and done Wade won't come close to cracking anybodys top 10 list while Kobe will be anywhere from 4-10 based off his accomplishments so far.

DEAL WITH IT

[Deuce Bigalow]

2004-2011 Kobe

28.4 PPG
5.5 RPG
5.1 APG
45.3 FG%

[Heavincent]

Too bad Kobe has never had a Finals performance close to Wade's.

What?! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

How is Wade being punished for being injured and/or going to college? I can't create a legacy for him that doesn't exist.

I don't think you would hear anybody argue that teenage Kobe was better than teenage LeBron. LeBron's entire following is built on numbers at a young age. That's everything his legacy is built on. Numbers. Check the Stats. PER. How can I assume Lebron and Shaq are destined for 6 titles when LeBron, Wade and Bosh were destined for a 6 game humiliating finals exit.? 2010 #1 PER + 2010 #2 PER + 2010 #4 PER does not equal 2011 championship.

Wade doesn't trump him on defensive stats. They had identical opposing PER ratings the last year and Kobe was better the year before. Who did Wade shut down in the playoffs?

This is once again an example of stat guys coming late to the party and trying to take over the meaning off a word. Kobe's clutch reputation wasn't built on the back of a calculator it was etched in a playoff legacy matched by a selective few. AS IT HAS BEEN FOR EVERY OTHER PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY. What you perceive as special rules for judging Kobe are actually special rules that existed for judging players before Kobe ever stepped foot into the NBA. Nobody was investigating box scores with a fine toothed comb to determine if Jerry West's "Mr. Clutch" moniker could be proven by a scientific study.

this is about kobe...nobody else. you base everything perceptions....now you want to use PER...why not in comparing wade vs kobe then. see....things like that are just not consistent. it either has value or it doesn't....you can't go around using player holding someone to a certain PER as evidence and then turn around and say PER is worthless....which is basically what you said earlier.

i believe you said that one all defensive honor was worth more than PER, win shares, eff,..etc. combined.

so why are you using PER now to prove something? makes no sense.

i'm not saying kobe isn't clutch. i'm saying the perceptions are far more fiction than fact. which is really just true if you actually look at the "facts"....

and you can't just ignore kobe's first 4 years as if they didn't help him. he was on a freaking veteran laden team that was winning damn near 60 games a year without him....you can't just act like he wasn't learning a ton those years.

when kobe was 22 he was far more ready to be an elite nba player than wade had the opportunity to be.

and here is my issue with you....even if we ignore kobe's first 4 years...wade still beats him in playoff per

wade has 4 playoff years over 26.3 PER
Kobe has 1

Wade has done that in 7 trips to the playoffs. Kobe has done that in 14 trips...or 10 trips if we remove 4 years.

but if we remove four years for kobe...its only fair to remove a year or two for wade....

so that would leave wade's playoff PER at around 26.5 in the playoffs and kobe's would be something around 24 in the playoffs.

but you will say PER is worthless....as usual. then please explain why it matters for the defensive argument you just used....waiting...

[824]

Who the **** uses statistics as anything beyond numbers?

Some of you are hilarious

[Jacks3]

:oldlol:

1 playoff run and 2 series is better than Kobe's career? :oldlol:

Playoff AVERAGES
2001 - 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg
2002 - 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg
2008 - 30.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.6 apg
2009 - 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg
2010 - 29.2 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg

All those runs are either a championship or Finals appearances
Kobe's playoff runs >> Wade's
:bowdown:

The best player of his era. :bowdown:

lol @ that clown DMavs getting mad. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

:bowdown:

The best player of his era. :bowdown:

lol @ that clown DMavs getting mad. :oldlol:

how are you defining era?

kobe was clearly not the best player in the league from 97 through 05.

from 06 to 08 he has an argument each year, but hardly clear cut.

from 09 to present its pretty clear he hasn't been the best player.

so are those three years your era?

[DevilsAssassin]

how are you defining era?

kobe was clearly not the best player in the league from 97 through 05.

from 06 to 08 he has an argument each year, but hardly clear cut.

from 09 to present its pretty clear he hasn't been the best player.

so are those three years your era?

this.

2000 Shaquille O'Neal
2001 Shaquille O'Neal
2002 Shaquille O'Neal/Tim Duncan
2003 Tim Duncan/Tracy McGrady
2004 Kevin Garnett
2005 Shaquille O'Neal/Tim Duncan
2006 Dwyane Wade
2007 Tim Duncan
2008 Chris Paul
2009 Lebron James
2010 Lebron James/Dwayne Wade

[Jacks3]

Are you retarded?

The "era" begins around 00.

He's a top 2-3 player from 01-03, top 5 from 04-05, #1 from 06-08.

Top 2 from 08-10.

Top 5 now.

So yeah, he's easily the best player of his era given his incredibly consistent excellence AND a super-high peak where he was the best player in league (06-08).

It's him or Duncan. LMAO @ acting like he doesn't have a case. :oldlol:

Don't be mad that Dork isn't even in the conversation.

:oldlol:

[Cali Syndicate]

this.

2000 Shaquille O'Neal
2001 Shaquille O'Neal
2002 Shaquille O'Neal/Tim Duncan
2003 Tim Duncan/Tracy McGrady
2004 Kevin Garnett/Tim Duncan
2005 Shaquille O'Neal/Tim Duncan
2006 Dwyane Wade
2007 Tim Duncan
2008 Chris Paul
2009 Lebron James
2010 Lebron James/Dwayne Wade

Damn, you don't give Kobe the nod on ANY season this last decade?

Vicious.

[L8kersfan222]

D-Wade316 getting absolutely sh1tted on lol troll.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

this.

2000 Shaquille O'Neal
2001 Shaquille O'Neal
2002 Shaquille O'Neal/Tim Duncan
2003 Tim Duncan/Tracy McGrady
2004 Kevin Garnett
2005 Shaquille O'Neal/Tim Duncan
2006 Dwyane Wade
2007 Tim Duncan
2008 Chris Paul
2009 Lebron James
2010 Lebron James/Dwayne Wade

:roll:

It isn't clear cut for any player being the best. The only year that you could say there was an absolute best was Shaq in 2000. No one else has come close to that level of domination. Not even LeBron in 2009. So I don't know why guys are trying to say "It's arguable for Kobe being the best in x year" like that isn't the case for anyone sans 2000 Shaq.

[Heavincent]

this.

2000 Shaquille O'Neal
2001 Shaquille O'Neal
2002 Shaquille O'Neal/Tim Duncan
2003 Tim Duncan/Tracy McGrady
2004 Kevin Garnett
2005 Shaquille O'Neal/Tim Duncan
2006 Dwyane Wade
2007 Tim Duncan
2008 Chris Paul
2009 Lebron James
2010 Lebron James/Dwayne Wade

What the hell is this? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Are you retarded?

The "era" begins around 00.

He's a top 2-3 player from 01-03, top 5 from 04-05, #1 from 06-08.

Top 2 from 08-10.

Top 5 now.

So yeah, he's easily the best player of his era given his incredibly consistent excellence AND a super-high peak where he was the best player in league (06-08).

It's him or Duncan. LMAO @ acting like he doesn't have a case. :oldlol:

Don't be mad that Dork isn't even in the conversation.

:oldlol:


well, there was definitely a shaq/duncan era. that went from around 99 through 06 or 07....they dominated the league.

so then there is a post shaq/duncan era.....and kobe has hardly dominated it. lebron has been better since 09....and wade has been right there with or better since around 06

i just don't see a "kobe era" in the game.

it will go mj era...then to the shaq/duncan era....then to something...who knows....certainly not the "kobe era" though....

[Round Mound]

Wade is a Better Total Player than Kobe

Now his DRT is way higher also his FG%. Wade should have been selected as the Best Defending SG of his Era (DRT agrees). He is also a Better All Around Player than Kobea as Far as Assists, Creating, Rebounding, Defense.

Offensively they are close but as All Around Players its not close

[DevilsAssassin]

http://files.sharenator.com/Troll_face_problem_RE_Old_Man_Trolling_in_the_News-s407x405-185991.jpg

[Kobe 4 The Win]

If you say from 2004 to 2011 Wade > Kobe then why are you including Kobe's pre-2004 stats in the comparison. The entire premise of your thread is off. You are either trying to be slick.... or you aren't as great at math as you would have us believe.

[Nevaeh]

Are you retarded?

The "era" begins around 00.

He's a top 2-3 player from 01-03, top 5 from 04-05, #1 from 06-08.

Top 2 from 08-10.

Top 5 now.

So yeah, he's easily the best player of his era given his incredibly consistent excellence AND a super-high peak where he was the best player in league (06-08).

It's him or Duncan. LMAO @ acting like he doesn't have a case. :oldlol:

Don't be mad that Dork isn't even in the conversation.

:oldlol:

A couple years is not an "Era", sorry to break it to you. And one MVP to show for your "Era" doesn't help either. Was he hovering around the Top-5 during the past Decade? Sure, I'll give you that. Was he the "Clear-Cut Best" this past decade? Hails to the Naw!!

[Heavincent]

well, there was definitely a shaq/duncan era. that went from around 99 through 06 or 07....they dominated the league.

so then there is a post shaq/duncan era.....and kobe has hardly dominated it. lebron has been better since 09....and wade has been right there with or better since around 06

i just don't see a "kobe era" in the game.

it will go mj era...then to the shaq/duncan era....then to something...who knows....certainly not the "kobe era" though....

An era doesn't just belong to one player you know. 2000-2010 was the Kobe/Shaq/Duncan era.

[Jacks3]

A couple years is not an "Era", sorry to break it to you. And one MVP to show for your "Era" doesn't help either. Was he hovering around the Top-5 during the past Decade? Sure, I'll give you that. Was he the "Clear-Cut Best" this past decade? Hails to the Naw!!
Nobody is saying he was the "clear-cut" best but he does have a excellent argument considering his consistent excellence and very high peak.

It's him or Duncan. Deal with it.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

well, there was definitely a shaq/duncan era. that went from around 99 through 06 or 07....they dominated the league.

so then there is a post shaq/duncan era.....and kobe has hardly dominated it. lebron has been better since 09....and wade has been right there with or better since around 06

i just don't see a "kobe era" in the game.

it will go mj era...then to the shaq/duncan era....then to something...who knows....certainly not the "kobe era" though....

When people say "Kobe era" they mean that he's been a top player for the ENTIRE decade. Even if you didn't have him ranked #1, he was still in the discussion. Shaq fell off after '06, Duncan started to lose steam in '07 and LeBron and Wade didn't enter the league until '03. Look at the Lists of Top 10 players from 2001 on and Kobe's name will be in all of them. No one has had more success from 2001-2010, and he has constantly been among the top players even with different teams, rule changes, age, injuries, etc.

THAT'S what people mean when they talk about the "Kobe era".

[Jacks3]

2001-Top 2
2002-Top 3
2003-#1
2004-Top 3
2005-Top 10
2006-#1
2007-#1
2008-#1
2009-#2
2010-#2
2011-Top 5



The best player of his era easily. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[DevilsAssassin]

2001-Top 2
2002-Top 3
2003-#1
2004-Top 3
2005-Top 10
2006-#1
2007-#1
2008-#1
2009-#2
2010-#2
2011-Top 5



The best player of his era easily. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: what is this?

[Blue&Orange]

This has been said million of times, but i won't go into too much detail.

The likes of Lebron, Wade, Rose, etc..., had the green light on offense as soon as they entered the league. Put any of those on the Lakers with prime Shaq, the chances are none of them will have similar career numbers.

Sure, you might make the case that Kobe wasn't good enough to have the green light from the get go, but he would average at least 20PPG his first couple of seasons if he was given the situations those players were in.
Humm. maybe Kobe should have done the same thing that Lebron, Wade, Rose, etc... did, and not refuse to play for the team that draft him. If you say Kobe's career numbers are meaningless, then so are his rings, because nobody else was blessed to be in such a good position to win rings as Kobe. It goes both ways.

[Jacks3]

That's how he's ranked. Pretty amazing eh?

No wonder he's the consensus best of his era and was voted so by every single major news outlet. ESPN,Sporting News, TNT.

2001-Top 2
2002-Top 3
2003-#1
2004-Top 3
2005-Top 10
2006-#1
2007-#1
2008-#1
2009-#2
2010-#2
2011-Top 5

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[DMAVS41]

When people say "Kobe era" they mean that he's been a top player for the ENTIRE decade. Even if you didn't have him ranked #1, he was still in the discussion. Shaq fell off after '06, Duncan started to lose steam in '07 and LeBron and Wade didn't enter the league until '03. Look at the Lists of Top 10 players from 2001 on and Kobe's name will be in all of them. No one has had more success from 2001-2010, and he has constantly been among the top players even with different teams, rule changes, age, injuries, etc.

THAT'S what people mean when they talk about the "Kobe era".

but that is just picking an arbitrary time. and even if it is a 10 year period. i'd still take shaq/duncan over him. they dominated the nba from 99 through 07.

there was definitely a mj era. that ended in 98....so what was the next era? pretty clearly the shaq/duncan era...right? that ended in 07. so we are talking about 4 years since then.

just don't see nba history reflecting on this time now or the last decade as the kobe era

going to go mj to shaq/duncan to ???? not sure. it could be kobe if he comes back better next year.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

ME Stats have never had a say in all defensive team awards

DMAVS But why does Wade have all better defensive stats than Kobe

ME He doesn't. Kobe has Wade beat in opposing PER

DMAVS Why are you using stats now?????

:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

ME Stats have never had a say in all defensive team awards

DMAVS But why does Wade have all better defensive stats than Kobe

ME He doesn't. Kobe has Wade beat in opposing PER

DMAVS Why are you using stats now?????

:facepalm

not at all.

i'm asking you why you think PER is valuable here, but not other places? please stay consistent.

and i am for everything. i'm sure there are some metrics that favor kobe defensively. i haven't seen them much....almost every defensive study i see shows wade above kobe.

i was just curious why you think PER matters when it supports your argument, but then totally disregard it when it favors wade over kobe. please answer.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

not at all.

i'm asking you why you think PER is valuable here, but not other places? please stay consistent.

and i am for everything. i'm sure there are some metrics that favor kobe defensively. i haven't seen them much....almost every defensive study i see shows wade above kobe.

i was just curious why you think PER matters when it supports your argument, but then totally disregard it when it favors wade over kobe. please answer.

I didn't say it was important. Im just correcting your false statements. You are carrying on is Wade is crushing Kobe in all defensive stats and its not even close to being true.

[Jacks3]

That's how he's ranked. Pretty amazing eh?

No wonder he's the consensus best of his era and was voted so by every single major news outlet. ESPN,Sporting News, TNT.

2001-Top 2
2002-Top 3
2003-#1
2004-Top 3
2005-Top 10
2006-#1
2007-#1
2008-#1
2009-#2
2010-#2
2011-Top 5

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
05-10 in particular is the "Kobe Era".

Over that span he was the best player in the league 3X and 2nd best 2X.

He won:
2 Championships
3 Finals Appearances
2X Scoring titles
2X Finals MVP
1X NBA MVP
5 All-NBA 1st Teams
5 All-NBA 1st Team Defense
Recorded seasons of:
35/5/5/2/56% TS
32/6/5/2/58% TS
28/6/5/2/58% TS
27/5/5/2/56% TS
27/6/5/2/55% TS
And post-seasons of:
29/6/6/59% TS
33/6/5/2/56% TS
30/6/6/2/58% TS (22 games)
30/6/6/2/57% TS (22 games)
29/6/6/2/57% TS (23 games)

He had 3 different months where he averaged 40+ PPG.
4 straight 45+ point games
4 straight 50+ point games
Averaged 37/6/6/58% TS over the last 30 games of 2007 Post-All Star break.
81 points
62 points in three quarters
20 50+ point games over this span (nobody else had more than 5)
70 40+ point games over this span (nobody came remotely close to that)
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter 3X
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season (only Wilt had more)
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

lol @ Wade or Dork ever having a span like this. :oldlol:

lol @ that clown DMavs.

[DMAVS41]

I didn't say it was important. Im just correcting your false statements. You are carrying on is Wade is crushing Kobe in all defensive stats and its not even close to being true.

in pretty much all the defensive measures i've seen....wade is usually ahead of kobe.

and that just supports what i see. its my opinion that wade has been easily the better defender that last few years. so when i see it...and then i see data that supports it. i feel like i have a strong case.

just like i feel that wade is a little better of a player overall. then when i go to the stats and data....it supports that again.....so i feel strong in my opinion.

but i don't disregard objective things just because they don't fit my agenda. never have. you clearly do. one second PER is worthless....the next you are using at as evidence. just makes no sense.

but that is the art of being a kobe stan...its a juggling act. you have to contradict yourself so often it just becomes the norm.

[PTB Fan]

Well, maybe that's true.

However, if we're going by stats purely, then it might be a good one. Even though i don't like Kobe, he's been the better player from 04-09. Wade has the edge in 06, 10 and 11.

[catch24]

He won:
2 Championships
3 Finals Appearances
2X Scoring titles
2X Finals MVP
1X NBA MVP
5 All-NBA 1st Teams
5 All-NBA 1st Team Defense
Recorded seasons of:
35/5/5/2/56% TS
32/6/5/2/58% TS
28/6/5/2/58% TS
27/5/5/2/56% TS
27/6/5/2/55% TS
And post-seasons of:
29/6/6/59% TS
33/6/5/2/56% TS
30/6/6/2/58% TS (22 games)
30/6/6/2/57% TS (22 games)
29/6/6/2/57% TS (23 games)
.

Should also add his streak of 40 and 50+pt games. Crazy list though. People really wonder why he's a top 10 player? Look at those accomplishments.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

but that is just picking an arbitrary time. and even if it is a 10 year period. i'd still take shaq/duncan over him. they dominated the nba from 99 through 07.

there was definitely a mj era. that ended in 98....so what was the next era? pretty clearly the shaq/duncan era...right? that ended in 07. so we are talking about 4 years since then.

just don't see nba history reflecting on this time now or the last decade as the kobe era

going to go mj to shaq/duncan to ???? not sure. it could be kobe if he comes back better next year.

I'm just saying, the man has won 4 championships and been an integral part of each of them. Shaq and Duncan were incredible in the beginning of the decade, no doubt, but they haven't lasted as long as Kobe. He's been a part of 2 dynasties in one decade. How many players can say that? What other player in this generation can say that?

[Bladers]

THE GREATNESS OF KOBE "BEAN" BRYANT!!

5x NBA CHAMPION
(2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)

2x NBA FINALS MVP
(2009, 2010)

NBA MOST VALUABLE PLAYER
(2008)

12x NBA ALL-STAR
(1998, 2000-2010)

8x ALL-NBA FIRST TEAM
(2002-2004, 2006-2010)

2x ALL-NBA SECOND TEAM
(2000, 2001)

2x ALL-NBA THIRD TEAM
(1999, 2005)

11 TOTAL ALL-NBA TEAMS

8x ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM
(2000, 2003-2004, 2006-2010)

2x ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM
(2001-2002)

10 TOTAL ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAM......TIED FOR MOST OF ALL-TIME BY A GUARD


NBA ALL-ROOKIE SECOND TEAM
(1997)

NBA SLAM DUNK CHAMPION
(1997)

NAISMITH PREP PLAYER OF THE YEAR
(1996)

ESPYS BEST NBA PLAYER
(2010)

Total Career Points- 25,790

Career Average- 28ppg 5.3reb 5ast 1.5stl

SCORING RAMPAGE
81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season



THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09


KILLER INSTINCT....

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

TOTAL CAREER PLAYOFF POINTS LIST TOP 10:
1.Michael Jordan* 5987
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 5762
3.Shaquille O'Neal 5121
4.Karl Malone 4761
5.Jerry West* 4457
6.Kobe Bryant* 4381
7.Larry Bird* 3897
8.John Havlicek* 3776
9.Hakeem Olajuwon* 3755
10.Tim Duncan 3724



Why Keep tryin to bring up this same Agenda BS?

[catch24]

SCORING RAMPAGE
81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

This is some Wilt Chamberlain type shit right here :oldlol:

Only Jordan and Wilt have had better scoring 'rampages' imo. When Kobe is feeling it though, he's as deadly of a scorer there has ever been.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

in pretty much all the defensive measures i've seen....wade is usually ahead of kobe.

and that just supports what i see. its my opinion that wade has been easily the better defender that last few years. so when i see it...and then i see data that supports it. i feel like i have a strong case.

just like i feel that wade is a little better of a player overall. then when i go to the stats and data....it supports that again.....so i feel strong in my opinion.

but i don't disregard objective things just because they don't fit my agenda. never have. you clearly do. one second PER is worthless....the next you are using at as evidence. just makes no sense.

but that is the art of being a kobe stan...its a juggling act. you have to contradict yourself so often it just becomes the norm.

Just for those keeping score at home...

ME... Kobe has had all defensive team awards ahead of Wade every year

DMAVS But look at this obscure stat nobody has heard of

ME Stats have never had a say in all defensive team awards historically

DMAVS But why does Wade have all better defensive stats than Kobe

ME He doesn't. Kobe has Wade beat in opposing PER

DMAVS Why are you using stats now?


Kobe superiority was based on awards not stats. Your hilarious and dramatic reaction to his selection as a statistical travesty has been exposed as a fraud. If I point out flaws in your own argument it doesn't mean I cosign on the statistical movement for every poster with a grudge and a excel sheet. I hope you are bright enough to understand that

[DMAVS41]

I'm just saying, the man has won 4 championships and been an integral part of each of them. Shaq and Duncan were incredible in the beginning of the decade, no doubt, but they haven't lasted as long as Kobe. He's been a part of 2 dynasties in one decade. How many players can say that? What other player in this generation can say that?

but you are just pick an arbitrary number. how do you not see that.

shaq was a beast from 93 to 06
duncan was a beast from 98 to 07 and remained very good through 2010

take duncan. he played around 12 or so years in which he was an elite player. for most of those he was a better player than kobe in my opinion.

for kobe its around 12 as well....and that is if we count his 4th year.

so you are just pick an arbitrary number that favors kobe. you are starting the clock later for him. and even with that, there are other players in the league competing with him. wade and lebron. we can ignore wade for a second. its been obvious to anyone with any objectivity that lebron has been better than kobe for the last 3 years now.

its just not a big enough window to call it an era. nba history will absolutely remember a shaq/duncan era. if you want to throw kobe into that...go for it...you'll get no arguments here. but to claim he deserves his own "kobe era"....don't see it.

[PowerGlove]

Ehh.... Kobe>Wade overall.

[DMAVS41]

Just for those keeping score at home...

ME... Kobe has had all defensive team awards ahead of Wade every year

DMAVS But look at this obscure stat nobody has heard of

ME Stats have never had a say in all defensive team awards historically

DMAVS But why does Wade have all better defensive stats than Kobe

ME He doesn't. Kobe has Wade beat in opposing PER

DMAVS Why are you using stats now?


Kobe superiority was based on awards not stats. Your hilarious and dramatic reaction to his selection as a statistical travesty has been exposed as a fraud. If I point out flaws in your own argument it doesn't mean I cosign on the statistical movement for every poster with a grudge and a excel sheet. I hope you are bright enough to understand that


you are missing the point. i'm not arguing with you on that. i love more evidence. post a link. provide the data. i don't pick and choose just what fits my opinion. you do. if kobe beats him in opposing PER...that is something he has on wade. so we can go down the list of defensive metrics that favor each player and see who comes out on top. i'll take wade....

however, if you are going to use a stat to support kobe....you can't ignore the same stat when it favors wade.

are you really this dense?

You: PER is worthless
You: Kobe holds offensive players to a lower PER

LOL.....

Again, i'm not ignoring your stat. But I need to see it and see some more evidence on the whole. I'm not basing my opinion on just one thing....literally every defensive study i've seen post 2006 has wade ranked higher. in that link i posted there are like 4 different measures alone that favor wade. throw in defensive rating...defensive win shares...opposing fg%...etc. all that i've seen favor wade.

you know you got caught contradicting yourself....too many balls to juggle. i can't blame you though....its a lot to keep in the air.

[Jacks3]

05-10 in particular is the "Kobe Era".

Over that span he was the best player in the league 3X and 2nd best 2X.

He won:
2 Championships
3 Finals Appearances
2X Scoring titles
2X Finals MVP
1X NBA MVP
5 All-NBA 1st Teams
5 All-NBA 1st Team Defense
Recorded seasons of:
35/5/5/2/56% TS
32/6/5/2/58% TS
28/6/5/2/58% TS
27/5/5/2/56% TS
27/6/5/2/55% TS
And post-seasons of:
29/6/6/59% TS
33/6/5/2/56% TS
30/6/6/2/58% TS (22 games)
30/6/6/2/57% TS (22 games)
29/6/6/2/57% TS (23 games)

He had 3 different months where he averaged 40+ PPG.
4 straight 45+ point games
4 straight 50+ point games
Averaged 37/6/6/58% TS over the last 30 games of 2007 Post-All Star break.
81 points
62 points in three quarters
20 50+ point games over this span (nobody else had more than 5)
70 40+ point games over this span (nobody came remotely close to that)
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter 3X
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season (only Wilt had more)
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

lol @ Wade or Dork ever having a span like this.

lol @ that clown DMavs.

Now add that to what he did from 00-05:

3 Championships
4 Finals Appearances
3X All-NBA 1st Team
2X All-NBA 2nd Team
5X All-NBA 1st-Team Defense
Recorded seasons of:
23/6/5/2/55% TS
29/6/5/2/55% TS
26/6/6/2/56% TS
30/7/6/2/55% TS
24/6/5/2/56% TS
28/6/6/2/56% TS
Recorded post-seasons of:
22/6/5/2/54% TS
29/7/6/2/56% TS
27/6/5/2/52% TS
32/6/5/2/52% TS
25/5/5/2/51% TS

Had a stretch where he scored of nine consecutive 40+ point games.
13 straight 35+ point games
Averaged 40+ PPG for entire month
Won three straight Championships and made another Finals in a five year span.
Widely regarded as one of the 2-3 best perimeter defenders in the league.

And clowns wonder he's the best player of his era?

Now do you why D-Whistle has NO CHANCE to catch him?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Jacks3]

THE GREATNESS OF KOBE "BEAN" BRYANT!!

5x NBA CHAMPION
(2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)

2x NBA FINALS MVP
(2009, 2010)

NBA MOST VALUABLE PLAYER
(2008)

12x NBA ALL-STAR
(1998, 2000-2010)

8x ALL-NBA FIRST TEAM
(2002-2004, 2006-2010)

2x ALL-NBA SECOND TEAM
(2000, 2001)

2x ALL-NBA THIRD TEAM
(1999, 2005)

11 TOTAL ALL-NBA TEAMS

8x ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM
(2000, 2003-2004, 2006-2010)

2x ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM
(2001-2002)

10 TOTAL ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAM......TIED FOR MOST OF ALL-TIME BY A GUARD


NBA ALL-ROOKIE SECOND TEAM
(1997)

NBA SLAM DUNK CHAMPION
(1997)

NAISMITH PREP PLAYER OF THE YEAR
(1996)

ESPYS BEST NBA PLAYER
(2010)

Total Career Points- 25,790

Career Average- 28ppg 5.3reb 5ast 1.5stl

SCORING RAMPAGE
81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season



THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09


KILLER INSTINCT....

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/09/99 - Lakers 101, Rockets 100 (playoffs, game-winning FTs with 5.3 seconds remaining)
2) 12/27/99 - Lakers 108, Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
3) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97, Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
4) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112, Kings 110 (game-tying three for OT, OT jumper for win)
5) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85, Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining)
6) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113, Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the And-1)
7) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87, Nuggets 86 (offensive reb and jumper)
8) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96, Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater, jumper)
9) 03/24/02 - Lakers 97, Kings 96 (fade-away jumper, 2.6 seconds remaining)
10) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87, Spurs 85 (playoffs, offensive rebound and put-back)
11) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105, Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
12) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102, Grizzlies 101 (buzzer-beater, jumper)
13) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115, Suns 113 (GW jumper with 28.6 seconds remaining)
14) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101, Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, buzzer-beating fade-away)
15) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89, Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
16) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104, Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 seconds remaining)
17) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105, Blazers 104 (game-tying three for OT, OT GW buzzer-beating three)
18) 03/13/05 - Lakers 117, Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
19) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99, Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
20) 12/04/05 - Lakers 99, Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
21) 01/12/06 - Lakers 99, Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 seconds to go)
22) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99, Suns 98 (playoffs, game-tying tear drop for OT, and OT game-winning jumper)
23) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123, Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
24) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121, Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 seconds to go)
25) 12/04/09 - Lakers 108, Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beating three over Wade)
26) 12/16/09 - Lakers 107, Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
27) 01/01/10 - Lakers 109, Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beating three, 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
28) 01/13/10 - Lakers 100, Mavericks 95 (game-winning jumper with 28.9 seconds remaining)
29) 01/31/10 - Lakers 90, Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper with 7 secs remaining)
30) 02/23/10 - Lakers 99, Grizzlies 98 (game-winning jumper with 4.3 seconds remaining)
31) 03/10/10 - Lakers 109, Raptors 107 (game-winning fade-away with 1.9 seconds remaining)

TOTAL CAREER PLAYOFF POINTS LIST TOP 10:
1.Michael Jordan* 5987
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 5762
3.Shaquille O'Neal 5121
4.Karl Malone 4761
5.Jerry West* 4457
6.Kobe Bryant* 4381
7.Larry Bird* 3897
8.John Havlicek* 3776
9.Hakeem Olajuwon* 3755
10.Tim Duncan 3724



Why Keep tryin to bring up this same Agenda BS?
And people think D-Whistle is comparable? :roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

you are missing the point. i'm not arguing with you on that. i love more evidence. post a link. provide the data. i don't pick and choose just what fits my opinion. you do. if kobe beats him in opposing PER...that is something he has on wade. so we can go down the list of defensive metrics that favor each player and see who comes out on top. i'll take wade....

however, if you are going to use a stat to support kobe....you can't ignore the same stat when it favors wade.

are you really this dense?

You: PER is worthless
You: Kobe holds offensive players to a lower PER

LOL.....

Again, i'm not ignoring your stat. But I need to see it and see some more evidence on the whole. I'm not basing my opinion on just one thing....literally every defensive study i've seen post 2006 has wade ranked higher. in that link i posted there are like 4 different measures alone that favor wade. throw in defensive rating...defensive win shares...opposing fg%...etc. all that i've seen favor wade.

you know you got caught contradicting yourself....too many balls to juggle. i can't blame you though....its a lot to keep in the air.

I don't need a stat to prop up Kobe. He has been awarded the title as the better defender for nearly every year of his career. If you are going to assert otherwise come up with a reason why its false. You already failed on the first count claiming superstar bias while completely ignoring that Wade himself is also a superstar. Your second attempt was claiming all defensive stats favor Wade. It took me 10 secs to disprove that and now you are somehow under the belief that I have to prove Kobe's defensive superiority over Wade with even more stats. :oldlol:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

but you are just pick an arbitrary number. how do you not see that.

shaq was a beast from 93 to 06
duncan was a beast from 98 to 07 and remained very good through 2010

take duncan. he played around 12 or so years in which he was an elite player. for most of those he was a better player than kobe in my opinion.

for kobe its around 12 as well....and that is if we count his 4th year.

so you are just pick an arbitrary number that favors kobe. you are starting the clock later for him. and even with that, there are other players in the league competing with him. wade and lebron. we can ignore wade for a second. its been obvious to anyone with any objectivity that lebron has been better than kobe for the last 3 years now.

its just not a big enough window to call it an era. nba history will absolutely remember a shaq/duncan era. if you want to throw kobe into that...go for it...you'll get no arguments here. but to claim he deserves his own "kobe era"....don't see it.

It isn't like using "the past decade" is something that I just pulled out of my ass. Kobe was named the player of the decade. We are just justifying it.

I'm just saying that in the past decade, Kobe has been a constant top player. Shaq was at the first half/beginning of the decade, and Duncan lasted a little longer, but neither of them lasted as long as Kobe. Shaq (post 2006 - pre retirement) was nowhere near Top 10. Duncan is nowhere near Top 10 now. Kobe still is. Kobe has won 4 titles, 2 as the #1 option. No other player has had that much success. The only one that can come close is Duncan..and maybe Shaq after that.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Drrrrrrrrrr lets see who can come up with the more selective stats and pretend it means anything

10-11

Kobe 12.0
Wade 12.0

09-10

Kobe 12.5
Wade 13.0

08-09

Kobe 14.2
Wade 12.3

07-08

Kobe 13.4
Wade 16.5

06-07

Kobe 13.7
Wade 14.3

05-06

Kobe 14.1
Wade 14.6

Poor unappreciated Wade and overrated Kobe. Beat Kobe once, tied once and lost 4 times. :oldlol:

http://www.82games.com/index.htm

[DMAVS41]

I don't need a stat to prop up Kobe. He has been awarded the title as the better defender for nearly every year of his career. If you are going to assert otherwise come up with a reason why its false. You already failed on the first count claiming superstar bias while completely ignoring that Wade himself is also a superstar. Your second attempt was claiming all defensive stats favor Wade. It took me 10 secs to disprove that and now you are somehow under the belief that I have to prove Kobe's defensive superiority over Wade with even more stats. :oldlol:

superstar bias?

i posted nearly a decade worth of defensive evidence in this very thread...with wade consistently ahead of kobe....and kobe way behind all the best defenders in the league.

you have to prove everything you claim. you can't just rest on the opinions of others.

again:

you: ignore all stats...i don't need them
you: oh you posted evidence...its worthless to me

LOL

[D-Wade316]

this.

2000 Shaquille O'Neal
2001 Shaquille O'Neal
2002 Shaquille O'Neal/Tim Duncan
2003 Tim Duncan/Tracy McGrady
2004 Kevin Garnett
2005 Shaquille O'Neal/Tim Duncan
2006 Dwyane Wade
2007 Tim Duncan
2008 Chris Paul
2009 Lebron James
2010 Lebron James/Dwayne Wade
Accurate list.

[Deuce Bigalow]

^
Then I guess you are smarter than the majority of players, GMs, former players who over the years have said Kobe is the best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoqbgOZrEg thats just part 1

watch that, and if your idiot brain still thinks that Kobe was never the best player in any season, then well :facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

i would hope we could have a more accurate conversation than the masses. i believe they voted lebron over duncan and shaq as well.

kobe is a great player, but he's not the player of the post mj generation. that would be a battle between shaq and duncan. and then once again, once lebron and wade came into the league....he's done little to nothing to separate himself from them.

it was pretty clear that kobe was worse than both or one of shaq/duncan from about 99 through 05.....then wade/lebron came in and from about 06 to present its been debatable those years.

one of the best players of his generation? of course. the player of this generation? hardly.

next.



No .....I would not want to put 100% value on your flawed stats and mathmatical formula's either...

elitists fans with a skewed agenda is a far worse way to analyze greatness....the best way is to watch and understand wich player's capyure your imagination and impact the game and yourself from what you see....

looking on paper and never watching the game is silly and wrong...That's why Kobe was Voted by a landslide over all his peers...from both the casual fans and the hardcore fans who watch...

as Greatness of a Basketball player..i would defiantly Rank Kobe and Lebron over Snack (who relied on Kobe in the most important part of the game and never came close to being as Dominate without Kobe..and who lacks any game outside of 5' from the hoop)....





why am I responding to a 3 people sharing a laptop and one certain poster who calimed "Kobe only wins because he has good teammates" ...and if "Lebron had a good team he could win too":confusedshrug:


maybe because my pocket is full....nevermind...get in son..




next

[D-Wade316]

What?! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Wade's 06 Finals>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe's 09 Finals








DEAL WITH IT

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wade's 06 Finals>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe's 09 Finals








DEAL WITH IT

vs the team Kobe outscored by himself in 3 quarters :oldlol:

[SpecialQue]

Bryant is the Most Overrated Superstar of All Time....Right there with Bill Russell

I normally like Round Mound's posts, but that right there certifies him as a grade-A f@ggot.

[macpierce]

too bad no one outside of this forum would agree with this thread :roll:

[G-Funk]

Kobe
Age 20- 20/5/4
Age 21- 23/6/5
Age 22- 29/6/5
Age 23- 25/6/6
Age 24- 30/7/6
Age 25- 24/6/5
Age 26- 28/6/6
Age 27- 35/5/5
Age 28- 32/6/5
Age 29- 28/6/5
Age 30- 27/5/5
Age 31- 27/5/5
Age 32- 25/5/5

Wade
Age 22- 16/4/5
Age 23- 24/5/7
Age 24- 27/6/7
Age 25- 27/5/8
Age 26- 25/4/7
Age 27- 30/5/8
Age 28- 27/5/7

By age


Age 22- Kobe 29/6/5 Wade 16/4/5
Age 23- Kobe 25/6/6 Wade 24/5/7
Age 24- Kobe 30/7/6 Wade 27/6/7
Age 25- Kobe 24/6/5 Wade 27/5/8
Age 26- Kobe 28/6/6 Wade 25/4/7
Age 27- Kobe 35/5/5 Wade 30/5/8
Age 28- Kobe 32/6/5 Wade 27/5/7

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe
Age 20- 20/5/4
Age 21- 23/6/5
Age 22- 29/6/5
Age 23- 25/6/6
Age 24- 30/7/6
Age 25- 24/6/5
Age 26- 28/6/6
Age 27- 35/5/5
Age 28- 32/6/5
Age 29- 28/6/5
Age 30- 27/5/5
Age 31- 27/5/5
Age 32- 25/5/5

Wade
Age 22- 16/4/5
Age 23- 24/5/7
Age 24- 27/6/7
Age 25- 27/5/8
Age 26- 25/4/7
Age 27- 30/5/8
Age 28- 27/5/7

By age


Age 22- Kobe 29/6/5 Wade 16/4/5
Age 23- Kobe 25/6/6 Wade 24/5/7
Age 24- Kobe 30/7/6 Wade 27/6/7
Age 25- Kobe 24/6/5 Wade 27/5/8
Age 26- Kobe 28/6/6 Wade 25/4/7
Age 27- Kobe 35/5/5 Wade 30/5/8
Age 28- Kobe 32/6/5 Wade 27/5/7

ether....





oh yeah forgot....

....NBA Finals...champion.....NBA Finals....champion....NBA Finals....champion....NBA Finals....lost....NBA Finals...lost.....NBA Finals...champion.....NBA Finals.....champion....

vs


NBA Finals.....champion.....15 win season....meh....meh........NBA Finals (with the most stacked team of alltime)..lost

[Jacks3]

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[D-Wade316]

6/24

[DMAVS41]

Kobe
Age 20- 20/5/4
Age 21- 23/6/5
Age 22- 29/6/5
Age 23- 25/6/6
Age 24- 30/7/6
Age 25- 24/6/5
Age 26- 28/6/6
Age 27- 35/5/5
Age 28- 32/6/5
Age 29- 28/6/5
Age 30- 27/5/5
Age 31- 27/5/5
Age 32- 25/5/5

Wade
Age 22- 16/4/5
Age 23- 24/5/7
Age 24- 27/6/7
Age 25- 27/5/8
Age 26- 25/4/7
Age 27- 30/5/8
Age 28- 27/5/7

By age


Age 22- Kobe 29/6/5 Wade 16/4/5
Age 23- Kobe 25/6/6 Wade 24/5/7
Age 24- Kobe 30/7/6 Wade 27/6/7
Age 25- Kobe 24/6/5 Wade 27/5/8
Age 26- Kobe 28/6/6 Wade 25/4/7
Age 27- Kobe 35/5/5 Wade 30/5/8
Age 28- Kobe 32/6/5 Wade 27/5/7

are those numbers supposed to prove anything? look at wade's numbers...they are right there with kobe's and wade does it on better overall efficiency....and wade has been the better defender for at least the last 3 years.

and wade has put up better playoff performances as well.

lol at those numbers supposed to prove anything. all it proves is that kobe shoots more....even with kobe's first 4 years that everyone wants to chop off....even with kobe not starting and not playing as much etc. kobe still averages 19.4 shots per game. which is exactly 1 more shot per game than wade on his career....LOL

i don't see how any statistics can support either one as any better than the other really.

[Doctor Rivers]

i don't see how any statistics can support either one as any better than the other really.

:facepalm

negged

wade is and will continue to be the better player.

[Doctor Rivers]

From 2004 to 2011 Wade has Been a Better Player than Kobe

Career Season

Wade: 25.4 PPG/48.5% FG/5.1 RPG/6.3 APG/1.8 SPG/1.1 BPG/ 3.6 TOVs PG/2.6 PFsPG/PER: 25.7/DRT 104

Kobe: 25.3 PPG/45.4% FG/4.1 RPG/4.7 APG/ 1.5 SPG/0.5 BPG/2.9 TOVs PG/2.6 PFs PG/PER: 23.5/DRT 105

Career Play-Offs:

Wade: 25.9 PPG/48.3% FG/5.7 RPG/ 5.6 APG/1.6 SPG/ 1.0 BPG/ 4.0 T0Vs PG/3.0 PFs PG/ PER: 24.6/ DRT 102

Kobe: 25.4 PPG/44.8% FG/5.1 RPG/4.8 APG/1.4 SPG/0.7 BPG/3.0 TOVs PG/3.0 PFs PG/ PER: 22.3/ DRT 106

Only Reason why Wade has more TOVs is because he has played with Weaker Casts than Kobe has

Head to Head: Wade Dominated the game All Around Wise

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=wadedw01

Bryant is the Most Overrated Superstar of All Time....Right there with Bill Russell

Wade is More Impactfull, Efficient and All Around Wise Plus D > Bryant

repped:cheers:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

i don't see how any statistics can support either one as any better than the other really.

ooof tough blow to the Wade blowhards

Without clutching to playoff PERs against the worst defensive team in the Finals in the last 15 years, what else is there for the Wadephiles to fuel their delusions?

[Odinn]

Kobe, from 2000-01 to 2009-10, from his 22 to 31;
RS: 28.5ppg / 5.8rpg / 5.2apg / 1.7spg / 0.456fg% / 0.489efg% / 25.4eff
PO: 28.8ppg / 5.7rpg / 5.4apg / 1.5spg / 0.452fg% / 0.486efg% / 24.9eff

Wade, from 2003-04 to 2010-11, from his 22 to 29;
RS: 25.4ppg / 5.1rpg / 6.3apg / 1.8spg / 0.485fg% / 0.500efg% / 24.4eff
PO: 25.9ppg / 5.7rpg / 5.6apg / 1.6spg / 0.483fg% / 0.502efg% / 24.4eff

[DevilsAssassin]

Kobe, from 2000-01 to 2009-10, from his 22 to 31;
RS: 28.5ppg / 5.8rpg / 5.2apg / 1.7spg / 0.456fg% / 0.489efg%
PO: 28.8ppg / 5.7rpg / 5.4apg / 1.5spg / 0.452fg% / 0.486efg%

Wade, from 2003-04 to 2010-11, from his 22 to 29;
RS: 25.4ppg / 5.1rpg / 6.3apg / 1.8spg / 0.485fg% / 0.500efg%
PO: 25.9ppg / 5.7rpg / 5.6apg / 1.6spg / 0.483fg% / 0.502efg%


Muh......give me Dwyane Wade

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe, from 2000-01 to 2009-10, from his 22 to 31;
RS: 28.5ppg / 5.8rpg / 5.2apg / 1.7spg / 0.456fg% / 0.489efg% / 25.4eff
PO: 28.8ppg / 5.7rpg / 5.4apg / 1.5spg / 0.452fg% / 0.486efg% / 24.9eff

Wade, from 2003-04 to 2010-11, from his 22 to 29;
RS: 25.4ppg / 5.1rpg / 6.3apg / 1.8spg / 0.485fg% / 0.500efg% / 24.4eff
PO: 25.9ppg / 5.7rpg / 5.6apg / 1.6spg / 0.483fg% / 0.502efg% / 24.4eff


to go along with 7 NBA Finals......


Lord Gawdbe.......we are not worthy!!:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[G-Funk]

Wtf is this guy gino serious??? Or is he just trolling? Dude just said Wade has been the better defender for atleast 3 years!!! Lol damn bro i hope ur one of your brothers... Wade didnt become a good defender till this year! And that shyt still isnt as great as Kobes best defensive days and hes almost past his prime!

[G-Funk]

How some of these posters get away with crime on this forum with these pack of bullshyt lies is beyond me!

[PowerGlove]

Kobe, from 2000-01 to 2009-10, from his 22 to 31;
RS: 28.5ppg / 5.8rpg / 5.2apg / 1.7spg / 0.456fg% / 0.489efg% / 25.4eff
PO: 28.8ppg / 5.7rpg / 5.4apg / 1.5spg / 0.452fg% / 0.486efg% / 24.9eff

Wade, from 2003-04 to 2010-11, from his 22 to 29;
RS: 25.4ppg / 5.1rpg / 6.3apg / 1.8spg / 0.485fg% / 0.500efg% / 24.4eff
PO: 25.9ppg / 5.7rpg / 5.6apg / 1.6spg / 0.483fg% / 0.502efg% / 24.4eff

That's not even fair, if Wade's rookie season is in there....why isnt Kobe's?

[DevilsAssassin]

Wtf is this guy gino serious??? Or is he just trolling? Dude just said Wade has been the better defender for atleast 3 years!!! Lol damn bro i hope ur one of your brothers... Wade didnt become a good defender till this year! And that shyt still isnt as great as Kobes best defensive days and hes almost past his prime!


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[thejumpa]

Let's keep it 100.....stats mean little if we are talking about Wade vs Kobe. For the past few years Wade has been better but Kobe has been at it for 20 years and is still going strong keeping up with the young bucks. Plus, he has more years left in him. Wade is doing his thing but his resume isn't what Kobes is.

[Odinn]

That's not even fair, if Wade's rookie season is in there....why isnt Kobe's?
Kobe came to the L at his 18.
Wade came to the L at his 22.

So?

[PowerGlove]

Kobe came to the L at his 18.
Wade came to the L at his 22.

So?
You cant do stats like that.

You are picking one players peak years vs another's career.

[Ikill]

Kobe came to the L at his 18.
Wade came to the L at his 22.

So?
Age doesn't matter as much as years played taking out one or maybe two years for Kobe would be fair but 4 years **** no. one year NBA>two years of college. Comparing 5th year Kobe to rookie Wade is just not fair.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Age doesn't matter as much as years played taking out one or maybe two years for Kobe would be fair but 4 years **** no. one year NBA>two years of college. Comparing 5th year Kobe to rookie Wade is just not fair.

Was Wade held back two years in high school?

[Ikill]

Was Wade held back two years in high school?
no he missed his first year of college and he has an early birthday

[RRR3]

Wtf is this guy gino serious??? Or is he just trolling? Dude just said Wade has been the better defender for atleast 3 years!!! Lol damn bro i hope ur one of your brothers... Wade didnt become a good defender till this year! And that shyt still isnt as great as Kobes best defensive days and hes almost past his prime!
Kobe's been getting torched on defense the last few years :facepalm