View Full Version : ISH's #8 Player of Alltime
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 12:01 AM
Vote for the #8 Player of Alltime
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#1: Michael Jordan (9/15 votes)
#2: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (17/32 votes)
#3: Bill Russell (15/35 votes)
#4: Magic Johnson (20/32 votes)
#5: Wilt Chamberlain (17/44 votes)
#6: Larry Bird (21/28 votes)
#7: Shaquille O'Neal (17/38 votes)
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ISH's #7 Player of Alltime - Shaquille O'Neal
http://lakerstraderumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/bf97bb0349eb9a2b25efeb11b2d9.jpg
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Candidates:
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Jerry West
Moses Malone
Julius Erving
Karl Malone
Elgin Baylor
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Previous Thread http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238203
talkingconch
10-31-2011, 12:02 AM
Kobe, Hakeem, or Duncan
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 12:05 AM
Kobe, Hakeem, or Duncan
You got to vote for one
Inception28
10-31-2011, 12:10 AM
Tim Duncan, same vote as last time .
jacobgoindum
10-31-2011, 12:11 AM
Kobe Bryant
talkingconch
10-31-2011, 12:15 AM
Kobe Bryant
Mr. I'm So Rad
10-31-2011, 12:16 AM
I think he should be one spot higher but Kobe
Inception28
10-31-2011, 12:20 AM
lol, I find it funny how Kobe has more votes so far in this thread than he did in the #7 voting.
D-Wade316
10-31-2011, 12:21 AM
Tim Duncan
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 12:25 AM
lol, I find it funny how Kobe has more votes so far in this thread than he did in the #7 voting.
lol, but he was getting more votes than duncan and hakeem on the #5 and #6 voting
inclinerator
10-31-2011, 12:30 AM
kevin garnett
SuperPippen
10-31-2011, 12:37 AM
Actually, I vote for Hakeem.
Bernie Nips
10-31-2011, 12:43 AM
Hakeem
ShaqAttack3234
10-31-2011, 12:44 AM
Just like the last thread, I vote for Hakeem Olajuwon
When talking about the best defensive players of all time, Hakeem will be one of the first names mentioned and for good reason. When talking about best two-way players of all time, Hakeem should maybe be the first name mentioned. And when talking about the best playoff performers of all time, he should be one of the first names mentioned.
At his best, he had almost no weakness. He could cover the perimeter and recover to block shots at an elite level, grab rebounds, improved his post defense and was elite at the other end. His favorite move was the baseline fadeaway, but he could trick you with a quick spin move that same way for a lay up/dunk, go up quick with the fadeaway before you can react, or set up the shot with the dream shake. He could also go to the middle for jump hooks with great consistency. That almost forced you to double team him, and he became an excellent passer out of double teams. He could spin and draw 3 defenders to find a wide open 3 point shooter. Or he could go out on the perimeter and regularly hit shots from 15-18 feet, became a good free throw shooter for a big man and could even shoot off the dribble or occasionally pull out a crossover move.
That's why Houston had success when they finally made the most of his many offensive talents, and he did it without sacrificing his defense. And aside from maybe Kareem, is there any other center you'd take over Hakeem for a big shot late in the 4th quarter?
He also went through teams with some of the best players in the league during both title runs. Drexler's Blazers, Barkley/KJ's Suns, Malone/Stockton's Jazz and Ewing's Knicks in '94. Then Malone/Stockton's Jazz, Barkley/KJ's Suns, Robinson's Spurs and Shaq/Penny's Magic in '95. The '95 run came against teams that won 60, 59, 62 and 57 games, respectively and Houston didn't have homecourt for any series. Hakeem averaged 33/10/5/3 in that run, by the way....
Hakeem rose to the occasion from a young age too. He beat the Showtime lakers in '86 and gave the '86 Celtics a pretty good fight in the finals. He averaged 27/12 during that run as well. With his cast deteriorating, he still didn't go down without a fight in '87 putting up 49/26/6 in game 6 while losing in double OT(though if not for a bad call, they probably push that series to 7).
SonOfMattGeiger
10-31-2011, 01:07 AM
kobe bryant, will be severely disappointed if duncan or hakeem steals this
Yao Ming's Foot
10-31-2011, 01:09 AM
Kobe
Jacks3
10-31-2011, 01:10 AM
Kobe.
King24
10-31-2011, 01:11 AM
Tim Duncan.
nnn123
10-31-2011, 01:20 AM
Hakeem!!
Lebron23
10-31-2011, 01:24 AM
Tim Duncan aka the most underrated player in NBA History.
Bigsmoke
10-31-2011, 02:45 AM
Kobe aint ****ing with the Dream
OmniStrife
10-31-2011, 03:12 AM
Duncan,
Imposed his will on the league, terrific on both sides, GOAT at his position.
MichaelCheazley
10-31-2011, 03:20 AM
Duncan
Collie
10-31-2011, 03:22 AM
TD
RobertdeMeijer
10-31-2011, 03:56 AM
Tim Duncan
By the way, I hope we do this way until we get to 500 or so.
Dragonyeuw
10-31-2011, 04:03 AM
Tim Duncan
javiballer92
10-31-2011, 04:06 AM
Kobe Bryant!
OmniStrife
10-31-2011, 04:13 AM
Seems like 95% Kobe voters will have Kobe related nicknames \ avatars. :lol
Fans of the rest of the NBA will vote for someone else.
An ISH microcosm. :violin:
Jacks3
10-31-2011, 04:21 AM
Haters continuing to deny Kobe his rightful place.
Typical ISH. :violin:
chains5000
10-31-2011, 04:48 AM
Duncan
bdreason
10-31-2011, 04:58 AM
My first vote on these, but that list isn't looking too bad.
It's between Hakeem and Duncan, and although I think Hakeem had a superior prime, I have to give Duncan the edge because of his superior accomplishments.
Tim Duncan
Harison
10-31-2011, 05:04 AM
I dream of Hakeem
alenleomessi
10-31-2011, 07:25 AM
Duncan
Hittin_Shots
10-31-2011, 07:35 AM
Hakeem
Rnbizzle
10-31-2011, 07:39 AM
Kobe.
trooper
10-31-2011, 08:02 AM
Kobe
Duncan21formvp
10-31-2011, 08:08 AM
Tim Duncan should have been top 5.
Duncan here.
Orlando Magic
10-31-2011, 08:16 AM
Hakeem
Jan95
10-31-2011, 08:19 AM
Duncan
pegasus
10-31-2011, 08:58 AM
Kobe.
millwad
10-31-2011, 09:14 AM
Hakeem.
Tim Duncan
lol @ the kobetards... trying so hard...
Oscar, Hakeem & Duncan had better careers than Kobe..... deal with it
BruceLeeBowen
10-31-2011, 10:05 AM
Lebron.
Rolando
10-31-2011, 10:53 AM
Since this pole is not turning into the castastrophe that I thought it would, I will cast my vote again. Tim Duncan.
Pursuer
10-31-2011, 12:29 PM
I honestly believe it's Kobe Bryant.
Yung D-Will
10-31-2011, 12:43 PM
Hakeemmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Dave3
10-31-2011, 12:46 PM
Just like the last thread, I vote for Hakeem Olajuwon
When talking about the best defensive players of all time, Hakeem will be one of the first names mentioned and for good reason. When talking about best two-way players of all time, Hakeem should maybe be the first name mentioned. And when talking about the best playoff performers of all time, he should be one of the first names mentioned.
At his best, he had almost no weakness. He could cover the perimeter and recover to block shots at an elite level, grab rebounds, improved his post defense and was elite at the other end. His favorite move was the baseline fadeaway, but he could trick you with a quick spin move that same way for a lay up/dunk, go up quick with the fadeaway before you can react, or set up the shot with the dream shake. He could also go to the middle for jump hooks with great consistency. That almost forced you to double team him, and he became an excellent passer out of double teams. He could spin and draw 3 defenders to find a wide open 3 point shooter. Or he could go out on the perimeter and regularly hit shots from 15-18 feet, became a good free throw shooter for a big man and could even shoot off the dribble or occasionally pull out a crossover move.
That's why Houston had success when they finally made the most of his many offensive talents, and he did it without sacrificing his defense. And aside from maybe Kareem, is there any other center you'd take over Hakeem for a big shot late in the 4th quarter?
He also went through teams with some of the best players in the league during both title runs. Drexler's Blazers, Barkley/KJ's Suns, Malone/Stockton's Jazz and Ewing's Knicks in '94. Then Malone/Stockton's Jazz, Barkley/KJ's Suns, Robinson's Spurs and Shaq/Penny's Magic in '95. The '95 run came against teams that won 60, 59, 62 and 57 games, respectively and Houston didn't have homecourt for any series. Hakeem averaged 33/10/5/3 in that run, by the way....
Hakeem rose to the occasion from a young age too. He beat the Showtime lakers in '86 and gave the '86 Celtics a pretty good fight in the finals. He averaged 27/12 during that run as well. With his cast deteriorating, he still didn't go down without a fight in '87 putting up 49/26/6 in game 6 while losing in double OT(though if not for a bad call, they probably push that series to 7).
A lot of that you can say about Duncan though. One of the greatest defender of his generation, incredible clutch performer (bastard just never missed free throws in the clutch despite otherwise being a 65-70% FT shooter) and when it came playoff time, would put up the occasional 40/20 or 6/7 block game. I watched Duncan but never watched Hakeem, so what did Hakeem do to set himself apart from Duncan?
Fazotronic
10-31-2011, 02:36 PM
Hakeem Olajuwon
lol@ ppl thinking duncan is better than hakeem:hammerhead:
Odinn
10-31-2011, 02:42 PM
Hakeem Olajuwon
lol@ ppl thinking duncan is better than hakeem:hammerhead:
Hakeem individually better player maybe. But Duncan has the edge on intangibles and as a "franchise-player" Duncan is only second to Bill Russell.
Doctor Rivers
10-31-2011, 02:45 PM
Lebron.
:facepalm
Wade
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 02:49 PM
Tim Duncan
By the way, I hope we do this way until we get to 500 or so.
500 Players? woah Im thinking about doing a top 25 or maybe top 50
JM720
10-31-2011, 02:50 PM
Kobe
inclinerator
10-31-2011, 03:01 PM
shaq
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 03:05 PM
Seems like 95% Kobe voters will have Kobe related nicknames \ avatars. :lol
Fans of the rest of the NBA will vote for someone else.
An ISH microcosm. :violin:
Kobe belongs in the #7-10 player of alltime discussion, shaq, kobe, duncan, hakeem all have a case for those spots
Fazotronic
10-31-2011, 03:09 PM
Hakeem individually better player maybe. But Duncan has the edge on intangibles and as a "franchise-player" Duncan is only second to Bill Russell.
and thats what? 2 more rings that isn't much more considering that he played with david robinson, ginobili and parker.
thats enough to put him higher than someone that is better at almost everything?
that also played in a much better big man competition.
how many rings would duncan have if he played in the jordan era?
hakeem is so underrated on ish that ppl don't even use the jordan excuse for him.:rolleyes:
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 03:19 PM
Tim Duncan
lol @ the kobetards... trying so hard...
Oscar, Hakeem & Duncan had better careers than Kobe..... deal with it
Oscar did not have a better career
Odinn
10-31-2011, 03:41 PM
and thats what? 2 more rings that isn't much more considering that he played with david robinson, ginobili and parker.
thats enough to put him higher than someone that is better at almost everything?
that also played in a much better big man competition.
how many rings would duncan have if he played in the jordan era?
hakeem is so underrated on ish that ppl don't even use the jordan excuse for him.:rolleyes:
Duncan's competition > Hakeem's competition.
Shaq's team and Duncan's team met 6 times in the playoffs.
S. O'Neal 6 times (5 of them against prime Shaq, and TD guarded&was guarded by Shaq in 3 out of 6 times)
A. Stoudemire 4 times (3 of them against prime Amar'e)
D. Nowitzki 3 times (3 of them against prime Dirk)
K. Martin 3 times (2 of them against prime K-Mart)
K. Garnett 2 times (2 of them against prime KG)
P. Gasol 2 times (1 of them against prime Gasol)
R. Wallace 2 times (1 of them against prime Sheed)
>>>
P. Ewing 1 time (prime)
S. O'Neal 2 times (1 of them against prime Shaq)
D. Robinson 1 time (prime)
S. Kemp 3 times (3 of them against prime Kemp)
R. Parish 1 time (prime)
K. Abdul-Jabbar 1 time (39! year old Kareem)
V. Divac 3 times (1 of them against prime Divac)
And Duncan's 2002-03 season cleared "he had DRob, Ginobili, Parker" argument up. 38 year-old DRob, sophomore Parker, rookie Ginobili. He made that team 60W-team also NBA champions.
Hakeem's 93-95 span might be greater than Duncan's any year. But it's not all about that.
Hakeem had 5 first-round exits in his prime while Duncan never lost in the first round in his prime.
Lastly, Jordan-era wouldn't be excuse for Hakeem. Because he never lost to Jordan. He never played against Jordan in the NBA Finals. He won 1 of his titles, when Jordan wasn't in the league and in the other one's season Jordan played in 27 games combined rs&po.
Fazotronic
10-31-2011, 04:04 PM
And Duncan's 2002-03 season cleared "he had DRob, Ginobili, Parker" argument up. 38 year-old DRob, sophomore Parker, rookie Ginobili. He made that team 60W-team also NBA champions.
Hakeem's 93-95 span might be greater than Duncan's any year. But it's not all about that.
Lastly, Jordan-era wouldn't be excuse for Hakeem. Because he never lost to Jordan. He never played against Jordan in the NBA Finals. He won 1 of his titles, when Jordan wasn't in the league and in the other one's season Jordan played in 27 games combined rs&po.
well thats just one year and it wasn't any better than hakeems best run.
proving my point of him just being in a better situation.
clearly we are talking about the alltime list but the "team"-accomplishments between those both are not that much diffrent.
One could very well take Olajuwon over Duncan, just due the fact of him being the better player.
Odinn
10-31-2011, 04:12 PM
well thats just one year and it wasn't any better than hakeems best run.
proving my point of him just being in a better situation.
clearly we are talking about the alltime list but the "team"-accomplishments between those both are not that much diffrent.
One could very well take Olajuwon over Duncan, just due the fact of him being the better player.
So why Magic that high in the list? He went to best player's team in his rookie season.
Kareem won in 1988 because he was Magic's teammate.
Do these situations hurt their legacy?
"Team" accomplishments also matter.
And your last sentence could be said for Duncan also, just due to fact of being more of a franchise player than Hakeem. (the exact same reason; Duncan could be picked over Shaq in starting a franchise around a player debate.)
Miller for 3
10-31-2011, 04:16 PM
Duncan
Heavincent
10-31-2011, 04:17 PM
Kobe.
Fazotronic
10-31-2011, 04:33 PM
So why Magic that high in the list? He went to best player's team in his rookie season.
Kareem won in 1988 because he was Magic's teammate.
Do these situations hurt their legacy?
"Team" accomplishments also matter.
And your last sentence could be said for Duncan also, just due to fact of being more of a franchise player than Hakeem. (the exact same reason; Duncan could be picked over Shaq in starting a franchise around a player debate.)
well it should. but i haven't watched that much of kareem and magic to argue about their All-Time rankings.
And as i said, those "team" accomplishments combined with the individual accomplishments make this a closer run compared to other Legends.
millwad
10-31-2011, 04:46 PM
Hakeem individually better player maybe. But Duncan has the edge on intangibles and as a "franchise-player" Duncan is only second to Bill Russell.
Nonsense as usual.
Hakeem was just as much a franchise-player, his less successful years had to do with the garbage players he had by his side. And no, Duncan is not only second to Bill Russell as a franchise-player..:facepalm
DirtySanchez
10-31-2011, 04:47 PM
Kobe Bryant
ImmortalD24
10-31-2011, 05:14 PM
Kobe Bryant
Odinn
10-31-2011, 05:22 PM
Nonsense as usual.
Hakeem was just as much a franchise-player, his less successful years had to do with the garbage players he had by his side. And no, Duncan is not only second to Bill Russell as a franchise-player..:facepalm
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234719
Why didn't you show up in that thread?
millwad
10-31-2011, 05:52 PM
And Duncan's 2002-03 season cleared "he had DRob, Ginobili, Parker" argument up. 38 year-old DRob, sophomore Parker, rookie Ginobili. He made that team 60W-team also NBA champions.
Hakeem's 93-95 span might be greater than Duncan's any year. But it's not all about that.
Hakeem had 5 first-round exits in his prime while Duncan never lost in the first round in his prime.
Lastly, Jordan-era wouldn't be excuse for Hakeem. Because he never lost to Jordan. He never played against Jordan in the NBA Finals. He won 1 of his titles, when Jordan wasn't in the league and in the other one's season Jordan played in 27 games combined rs&po.
In all honesty, even though Duncan's performance through-out the year was excellent, the competition wasn't that good.. In first round they faced a crapp Suns team who only managed to win 44 games that season and Stoudemire was 20 years old and in his rookie season. And the series wasn't no blow-out either, Phoenix managed to win 2 games.
In the 2nd round they faced the Lakers who had an off-year and who only won 50 games that season and the Lakers still won 2 games against the Spurs. And Shaq was for the most-part of the series guarded by Robinson if I recall it correctly.
In the 3rd round they faced a 60-win Dallas team. BUT in game 3 Dirk Nowitzki got injured and he was replaced with garbage....
In the finals they faced a New Jersey Net team who only won 49 games that season. And everyone knows that the Nets had a pretty weak team. Jason Collins was the freaking starting center of that team. Jefferson was just a kid, he was in his 2nd pro season. And I know you Spurs-fans love to hype Kenyon Martin to make Duncan look greater but fact is that Kenyon Martin never even made an All-NBA team during his career, a decent player but nothing great about him.
So in all they faced 2 teams who even couldn't win 50 games that season, a 50 win team and a 60 team win who saw their franchise player go down in an injury after half of the series...
Whine all you want about Jordan not being around in '94 but fact still remains that Hakeem in '94 faced better competition then what Duncan did in '03 and don't even let me get started on the '95 season. Hakeem and the Rockets faced two 60 win teams, one 59 win team and then they swept Orlando in the finals (feat Shaq, Penny and Grand), the same team toy'd MJ and the Bulls earlier in the playoffs. MJ wouldn't have won in '95 anyway, they had no big guys left, Grant left and Rodman was on the same San Antonio team Hakeem absolutely demolished.
millwad
10-31-2011, 05:56 PM
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234719
Why didn't you show up in that thread?
Why should I be in a random thread like that?
And it's funny, I never claimed Duncan wasn't a franchise player, I only wrote that Hakeem was just as much franchise as Duncan was.
Haha, and are you trying to use that thread to show that you're right? 3 persons mentioned Duncan in that thread, YOU, another San Antonio fan (who also mentioned Hakeem) and some random poster with 16 total posts...:facepalm
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 06:33 PM
Kobe aint ****ing with the Dream
Is that a vote for Hakeem or what?
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 06:34 PM
23 - Tim Duncan
19 - Kobe Bryant
14 - Hakeem Olajuwon
Total - 56 votes
EnoughSaid
10-31-2011, 06:36 PM
Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwon!!
Can't believe people are picking Kobe over this guy. :facepalm
Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwon!!
Can't believe people are picking Kobe over this guy. :facepalm
5 rings.
lol
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 06:48 PM
5 rings.
lol
# 5
millwad
10-31-2011, 06:55 PM
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]# 5
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 06:57 PM
Hey, dick.
You are the OP, you are supposed to be unbiased.
You ain't supposed to write posts like that, do the counting and then shut up...
Im not being biased :facepalm
rodman91
10-31-2011, 07:08 PM
Hakeem.
Just out of curiosity, an analyses of the reputation of the voters so far:
Duncan 75 (81+ 6-)
Kobe 12 (23+ 11-)
Hakeem 44 (45+ 1-)
Garnett 4 (4+)
Lebron 1 (1+)
Wade 1 (1+)
talkingconch
10-31-2011, 07:32 PM
Hey, dick.
You are the OP, you are supposed to be unbiased.
You ain't supposed to write posts like that, do the counting and then shut up...
How was he biased? He posted facts in response to somebody who posted 'lol' after saying Kobe had 5 rings without listing other accomplishments
Education.
Odinn
10-31-2011, 07:59 PM
In all honesty, even though Duncan's performance through-out the year was excellent, the competition wasn't that good.. In first round they faced a crapp Suns team who only managed to win 44 games that season and Stoudemire was 20 years old and in his rookie season. And the series wasn't no blow-out either, Phoenix managed to win 2 games.
In the 2nd round they faced the Lakers who had an off-year and who only won 50 games that season and the Lakers still won 2 games against the Spurs. And Shaq was for the most-part of the series guarded by Robinson if I recall it correctly.
In the 3rd round they faced a 60-win Dallas team. BUT in game 3 Dirk Nowitzki got injured and he was replaced with garbage....
In the finals they faced a New Jersey Net team who only won 49 games that season. And everyone knows that the Nets had a pretty weak team. Jason Collins was the freaking starting center of that team. Jefferson was just a kid, he was in his 2nd pro season. And I know you Spurs-fans love to hype Kenyon Martin to make Duncan look greater but fact is that Kenyon Martin never even made an All-NBA team during his career, a decent player but nothing great about him.
So in all they faced 2 teams who even couldn't win 50 games that season, a 50 win team and a 60 team win who saw their franchise player go down in an injury after half of the series...
Whine all you want about Jordan not being around in '94 but fact still remains that Hakeem in '94 faced better competition then what Duncan did in '03 and don't even let me get started on the '95 season. Hakeem and the Rockets faced two 60 win teams, one 59 win team and then they swept Orlando in the finals (feat Shaq, Penny and Grand), the same team toy'd MJ and the Bulls earlier in the playoffs. MJ wouldn't have won in '95 anyway, they had no big guys left, Grant left and Rodman was on the same San Antonio team Hakeem absolutely demolished.
I've already said 93-95 Hakeem > any version of Duncan. But goat list doesn't rely on just peak.
millwad
10-31-2011, 08:14 PM
I've already said 93-95 Hakeem > any version of Duncan. But goat list doesn't rely on just peak.
You mentioned Hakeem's back to backs and Duncan's '03 season, not me.
And outside of Hakeem's peak, he performed on a really high level. Why do you think that Hakeem still has better stats compared to Duncan if you wanna compare them to the age of 34 (Duncan's current age)?
Sure, Duncan has more team success but he also played with better players and in a weaker era. If he'd be in the 80's and 90's like Hakeem, Duncan would have had to face Barkley on Malone and great centers like Moses Malone, Abdul-Jabbar, Ewing and of course Hakeem.
And bottom line, Hakeem during his career was both better on offense and defense. And comparing stats, even though Hakeem is superior to Duncan is still a little bit misleading since Duncan still has some less goodlooking years remaining that will result in a worse looking career average compared to the one he got now. Compare Hakeem and Duncan to the age of 34 just based on stats and you'll see who's superior of them two.
And yes, that was about stats but regarding team success, I am 100% sure that Duncan wouldn't have won a crap more than Hakeem if you'd put Duncan in Hakeem's shoes. No way.
ukplayer4
10-31-2011, 08:30 PM
duncan but im sorta torn with hakeem also
Odinn
10-31-2011, 08:38 PM
If Duncan would player in mid 80s & 90s, he probably he wouldn't have 4 rings but he would have greater numbers. And Duncan played in (arguably) strongest era for PF's.
And I'm sick of "he wouldn't do anything against 90s big men". In the 2002 playoffs, DRob played 74 minutes for entire Lakers-Spurs series and Duncan put up 29/17/5/3 against peak Shaq. His fg% was so low (42.5%) but he also lowered Shaq's fg% to 44.7%. So?
winwin
10-31-2011, 08:57 PM
kobe
Dave3
10-31-2011, 09:06 PM
Just out of curiosity, an analyses of the reputation of the voters so far:
Duncan 75 (81+ 6-)
Kobe 12 (23+ 11-)
Hakeem 44 (45+ 1-)
Garnett 4 (4+)
Lebron 1 (1+)
Wade 1 (1+)
It's not surprising. We already knew that him and LeBron have the worst trolls. There are just a lot more Kobe trolls so their sheer number makes them seem more obnoxious.
Not that rep is really a way of judging posters at all, it just says a bit about your posts when you have 3 or 4 red dots under your name.
Jacks3
10-31-2011, 09:17 PM
lol @ Hakeem or Dunkedon over Bryant. :facepalm
Typical haters.
millwad
10-31-2011, 09:25 PM
If Duncan would player in mid 80s & 90s, he probably he wouldn't have 4 rings but he would have greater numbers. And Duncan played in (arguably) strongest era for PF's.
And I'm sick of "he wouldn't do anything against 90s big men". In the 2002 playoffs, DRob played 74 minutes for entire Lakers-Spurs series and Duncan put up 29/17/5/3 against peak Shaq. His fg% was so low (42.5%) but he also lowered Shaq's fg% to 44.7%. So?
There's no "probably", if he'd take Hakeem's place for the Rockets I barely see him winning 2 chips..
And no, he wouldn't have that much greater numbers, why the hell would he have that? We are talking about 80's and 90's.. Not the 60's..
Why are you commenting on the '02 season? You do realize that the Spurs that season got their ass whooped by the Lakers in the playoffs?
And regarding the strongest PF era.. Ever heard of the 80's? McHale, Barkley, Malone, Rodman etc..
And of course he wouldn't have gotten 4 rings or 2 MVP's... The competition in the '03 season was weak as hell and the '99 season was a freaking lock-out season the year after MJ retired and it was weak against weak competition that year too.
Fatal9
10-31-2011, 10:08 PM
If Duncan would player in mid 80s & 90s, he probably he wouldn't have 4 rings but he would have greater numbers. And Duncan played in (arguably) strongest era for PF's.
And I'm sick of "he wouldn't do anything against 90s big men". In the 2002 playoffs, DRob played 74 minutes for entire Lakers-Spurs series and Duncan put up 29/17/5/3 against peak Shaq. His fg% was so low (42.5%) but he also lowered Shaq's fg% to 44.7%. So?
lol @ thinking Duncan could defend Shaq. First of all, D-Rob, Malik Rose, Duncan all split time on guarding Shaq (not to mention Shaq rarely played one on one). Secondly, Shaq was playing with a couple of ailing foot injuries in that series IIRC, and he had trouble scoring late in games as a result. Thirdly, Shaq shut down Duncan in the fourth quarters of that series...Spurs choked in fourth quarter of every game it seemed, Duncan couldn't deliver, simply couldn't take over scoring wise, meanwhile Kobe was smacking the Spurs up and stealing games in the fourth.
Duncan gets his playoff failures held less against him than any other player. And no, his competition in years he won wasn't that great and not even remotely comparable to who Hakeem faced/beat. Spurs won championships in some of the weakest years since the merger. '99 do I even need to explain? '03, Dirk doesn't play in WCF, avoid matchup with Kings (best SRS team in the league) due to Webber's injury, the most dysfunctional Laker team and a crappy ass finals opponent. Same thing in '07, beat one legit team in the Suns (with shady officiating and those BS suspensions), avoid matchup with Mavs and then got to face the crappiest finals team in the last 30 years. 2005 was the only year they faced and beat respectable/healthy competition.
Hakeem has beat showtime Lakers (led only team to beat the Lakers in 7 game series before the finals in all of the 80s), Malone/Stockton Jazz when they were winning like 60 games, best of the Ewing's Knicks, D-Rob's best Spurs team, Kemp/Payton Sonics, Barkley/KJ's Suns, Shaq/Penny's best Magic team and in most of these series, he didn't even have home court.
Hakeem has beat twice as many 55+ win teams than Duncan and he didn't need injuries or suspensions to his opponents to do it (and it's not like Hakeem ever had more help either, he simply played on a legendary level in those series). I know you can only beat who is put in front of you, but plenty of times Duncan had a chance to lots of great teams and he couldn't. Spurs just were consistent for so long that whenever there was a down year competition wise, they'd come in and scoop up rings and beat some of the worst finals teams the league has ever seen (meanwhile in 80s/90s, finals usually presented your toughest challenge). Basically, Hakeem in Duncan's situation gets you rings but Duncan winning facing the teams Hakeem won against? Don't see it.
This is without even mentioning their playing abilities because Hakeem was better on both ends. And Hakeem at 34 was putting up 23/11 on 63 TS% in the playoffs while leading his team to the WCF, Duncan is 34 and hasn't had a relevant playoff run in years.
Rojogaqu11
10-31-2011, 10:18 PM
Magic said Kobe is arguably the #1 Lakers player of all time (not that it makes it true but it counts at least for awesomeness), so I'll go with him cause Duncan and Hakeem have less accomplishments and had shorter careers at an elite level, while Kobe still is a top player in the league and was the face of the NBA the last decade. Duncan and Hakeem are legendary players but these past few years have put Kobe above them career-wise.
millwad
10-31-2011, 10:36 PM
Magic said Kobe is arguably the #1 Lakers player of all time (not that it makes it true but it counts at least for awesomeness), so I'll go with him cause Duncan and Hakeem have less accomplishments and had shorter careers at an elite level, while Kobe still is a top player in the league and was the face of the NBA the last decade. Duncan and Hakeem are legendary players but these past few years have put Kobe above them career-wise.
Like I said about Duncan, put Kobe in Hakeem's era, put him against Jordan and guys like Drexler and you'd see how much he'd accomplish. And don't give him Shaq to ride on for 3 years..:bowdown:
SpecialQue
10-31-2011, 10:37 PM
My vote's for Kobe.
Seriously though, either him or Duncan belong in this spot. The Dream is ridiculously overrated here.
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 10:38 PM
Like I said about Duncan, put Kobe in Hakeem's era, put him against Jordan and guys like Drexler and you'd see how much he'd accomplish. And don't give him Shaq to ride on for 3 years..:bowdown:
Kobe won 2 championships with Pau Gasol as his best teammate
SpecialQue
10-31-2011, 10:44 PM
Kobe won 2 championships with Pau Gasol as his best teammate
The way some people here talk, Gasol's a dominant player on par with Kareem, Shaq, or Robinson.
Kobe won 2 championships with Pau Gasol as his best teammate
Which is better than What Hakeem or Duncan had in their most impressive runs.
millwad
10-31-2011, 10:44 PM
Kobe won 2 championships with Pau Gasol as his best teammate
Oh, so having Pau as his best teammate is something bad now? And it's not like he only had Pau, he also had Odom, Bynum, Artest.
dynasty1978
10-31-2011, 10:45 PM
Like I said about Duncan, put Kobe in Hakeem's era, put him against Jordan and guys like Drexler and you'd see how much he'd accomplish. And don't give him Shaq to ride on for 3 years..:bowdown:
It's a lame and rather moot point. Put Shaq in the Magic/Bird era and he isn't nearly as accomplished, a young Jordan wasn't winning sh*t back then and it's doubtful Jordan equipped with a prime Scottie + Grant/Rodman is beating the great Laker/Celtic teams either.
millwad
10-31-2011, 10:46 PM
The way some people here talk, Gasol's a dominant player on par with Kareem, Shaq, or Robinson.
No one said that.
And regarding Robinson, I'd take Pau over the versions of Robinson Duncan played with anytime..
dynasty1978
10-31-2011, 10:47 PM
My vote is for Duncan btw.
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 10:49 PM
Oh, so having Pau as his best teammate is something bad now? And it's not like he only had Pau, he also had Odom, Bynum, Artest.
Bynum
09 PO
6/4/0, 46%
10 PO
9/7/1, 54%
Went to the Finals without him in '08
Odom
09 PO
12/9/2, 51%
10 PO
10/9/2, 47%
SpecialQue
10-31-2011, 10:51 PM
Bynum
09 PO
6/4/0, 46%
10 PO
9/7/1, 54%
Went to the Finals without him in '08
Odom
09 PO
12/9/2, 51%
10 PO
10/9/2, 47%
GODLIKE. :bowdown:
millwad
10-31-2011, 10:53 PM
It's a lame and rather moot point. Put Shaq in the Magic/Bird era and he isn't nearly as accomplished, a young Jordan wasn't winning sh*t back then and it's doubtful Jordan equipped with a prime Scottie + Grant/Rodman is beating the great Laker/Celtic teams either.
I don't really think it is.
Duncan had the luxury of playing in a weaker era and he won while facing less impressive big men. And now we are comparing him to Hakeem, it's pure stupidity to only judge them based on titles and accolades when one of them clearly faced more difficult competition.. I rather judge them based on skillset and statistics and their situations rather than just staring blind at some titles. I am absolutely not saying that titles isn't important, absolutely not, but judging and comparing two players is more than just staring blind at who of them won more without considering the differences in competition and era.
Am I wrong?
Deuce Bigalow
10-31-2011, 10:54 PM
I don't really think it is.
Duncan had the luxury of playing in a weaker era and he won while facing less impressive big men. And now we are comparing him to Hakeem, it's pure stupidity to only judge them based on titles and accolades when one of them clearly faced more difficult competition.. I rather judge them based on skillset and statistics and their situations rather than just staring blind at some titles. I am absolutely not saying that titles isn't important, absolutely not, but judging and comparing two players is more than just staring blind at who of them won more without considering the differences in competition and era.
Am I wrong?
Duncan's 03 run was impressive though, no matter who he played that run was great
millwad
10-31-2011, 10:57 PM
Duncan's 03 run was impressive though, no matter who he played that run was great
I never said that Duncan wasn't great, I only stated that the competition was weak and it really was. So was it in '99.
STATmanLAKERFAN
11-01-2011, 03:13 AM
Tim Duncan aka The Big Fundamental
Cali Syndicate
11-01-2011, 04:30 AM
Bynum
09 PO
6/4/0, 46%
10 PO
9/7/1, 54%
Went to the Finals without him in '08
Odom
09 PO
12/9/2, 51%
10 PO
10/9/2, 47%
Pau, Bynum and Odom make up one dynamic rotation. Arguably the best in the game. Bynum may not have an impressive stat line but neither does Tyson Chandler yet anyone could tell you his impact on the Mavs success is far greater than his 7ppg and 8rpg stat line. And Bynum is obviously a better overall player than Chandler. IMO Bynum can be a really productive player and one of the better centers in the league. He was utilized a lot more in the offense during last season's post season and put up 15ppg and 10rpg with a pretty good %. Don't undermine his ability. He's a solid player.
And yes they made the finals in 08 with Bynum and without him they lost. With him in the rotation, they ended up winning 2 consecutive titles. Looking back the 09 Magic never really stood a chance against the Lakers but damn if Pau and Bynum didn't contain Dwight. Dwight was beastin up until the Lakers too.
Pau, Bynum and Odom in the front court with Kobe leading the way is nothing to smirk at.
Anyways my vote goes to Hakeem.
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