Who is more clutch, LeBron or Carmelo?

[LoneyROY7]

Tough question, huh?

This is in reference to Mr. Pauk claiming LeBron is "more clutch" and a "better closer" then Anthony.

I think I'll go with Carmelo.

[knickswin]

this is unfortunately going to turn into a pauk ranting thread . . .

[pauk]

this is unfortunately going to turn into a pauk giving facts and proving you all are just delusional lebron haters thread . . .

fixed

[pauk]

and here you go...

1st of all......... Playoffs where it matters.... i dont think anybody can debate this one who has been more clutch there between Lebron and Carmelo...... Carmelo in Playoffs has been mostly a first round exit choker compared to Lebron....


2nd of all....... here is season numbers...


Gamewinning shots since 2002-03
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Lebron-GameWinners.jpg

www.82games.com

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2008-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2009-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2010-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2011-clutch-stats.jpg

[pauk]

and please dont give me that % bs on the gamewinners list.... when he cherry picked, took much less shots doesnt make sense.... these players (Kobe & Lebron) take much more shots because they are not afraid to fail... they take any shots... they dont cherry pick...

with that theory of carmelo being more clutch simply because he has hit higher % of his gamewinners (in the season) will make him or GASOL (50%) OR JAMISON (56%) the most clutch in the NBA.... and MORE CLUTCH THAN EVEN KOBE BRYANT & LEBRON JAMES....

in terms of clutchness.. Kobe Bryant & Lebron James > CARMELO....

facts > opinions


By facts....... Lebron & Kobe SEASON & PLAYOFFS have been overall the most clutch............ i hate Kobe... but facts are facts! you need to deal with it

[knickswin]

fixed

I'm not a Lebron hater and I will acknowledge that he does many things better than Carmelo. However, Carmelo does have the more complete scoring skill set which makes him more able to put up a good look in the closing seconds of a game.

The Lebron versus Carmelo match-up from February this year was interesting to me because they were guarding each other one-on-one the last quarter. Carmelo I think actually does a better job of guarding Lebron than he does of guarding Carmelo, but I would like a more objective observer to vouch for me on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUh4VcFkbQo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqnlgO0FZNw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDS-cYnYNRc&feature=related

[Rooster]

I like Lebron in the first 3 quarter.

But i prefer Carmelo in the 4th.

Especially in NBA Finals.

Carmelo would have destroyed the Matrix and whoever Mavs put in front of him when it matters.

[Clutch]

Carmelo is more clutch.
It isn't even close.

Just take the last season. Melo made 3 game winning shots since he came to the Knicks. He also had a few more in Denver (I remember that one against the Bulls).
LeBron had 0.
zero
ZERO

And let's not act like he didn't attempt it many times,he was at least 0-7 on game winners.

Add that choke in the Finals and the answer is obvious.

MELO IS MORE CLUTCH AND IT'S NOT EVEN DEBATABLE.

[v1ncelis]

Carmelo is more clutch.
It isn't even close.

Just take the last season. Melo made 3 game winning shots since he came to the Knicks. He also had a few more in Denver (I remember that one against the Bulls).
LeBron had 0.
zero
ZERO

And let's not act like he didn't attempt it many times,he was at least 0-7 on game winners.

Add that choke in the Finals and the answer is obvious.

MELO IS MORE CLUTCH AND IT'S NOT EVEN DEBATABLE.
:applause:
and :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm to pauk's PER stats.

[Cali Syndicate]

Carmelo is more clutch.
It isn't even close.

Just take the last season. Melo made 3 game winning shots since he came to the Knicks. He also had a few more in Denver (I remember that one against the Bulls).
LeBron had 0.
zero
ZERO

And let's not act like he didn't attempt it many times,he was at least 0-7 on game winners.

Add that choke in the Finals and the answer is obvious.

MELO IS MORE CLUTCH AND IT'S NOT EVEN DEBATABLE.

Melo had that almost game winner on San Antonio too where Ginobli crept in for the charge taking it away.

[EricForman]

I really don't know if the Lebron diss is due to blatant hating or if people really are this stupid or lacking basketball knowledge.

Through 8 years, Lebron has been the far superior player in every way and it's not even close (Lebron is routinely ranked top 2, mostly at 1, for the past half a decade on every list while Melo is anywhere from 8 to 20 throughout the same time period).

All this Lebron is a choker thing... the only material is this year's Finals. What about his ridiculous 25 point 4th quarter vs the Pistons that, literally, trumps anything Melo has done in his entire career?

Two game winners in his first playoff series against the Wizards in 06? The game winner against the Magic in 09? Several daggers vs the Bulls in 2010 first round? This year's shots against Celtics and Bulls? Dropping 40 whatever in game 7 and scaring every Boston fan in 08?

Melo's had maybe three playoff games close to anything I just listed. That big game in game 2 vs the Celtics this year, and probably two during the 09 run. that's it. His playoff stats and performances have stunked otherwise. Check his numbers in 2004, 2005, 2006, etc.

Lebron vs Melo isn't a discussion. The only topic Melo can win is "who had the better rookie year?" (arguable) and "who has the better midrange J" (Melo wins this one). Otherwise, Lebron beats Melo in every other form of bball talk imaginable.

[pauk]

I like Lebron in the first 3 quarter.

But i prefer Carmelo in the 4th.

Especially in NBA Finals.

Carmelo would have destroyed the Matrix and whoever Mavs put in front of him when it matters.



What makes you think so when he has never even been there? When his choking in the playoffs never allowed him to get there..... :roll:

he has not won a single playoff series in YEARS... and didnt have a single playoff memorable clutch moment ever... last time he choked and got swept against the Celtics this previous playoffs in the first freakin round.... take a look what Lebron did against that same exact team later...

lol @ these lebron haters

[pauk]

:applause:
and :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm to pauk's PER stats.

nope... sorry thats not "PER"....

its productions in the clutch.... something which Lebron & Kobe have always been at the top of...

[Asukal]

I'll take Melo. 13 out of 27 > 17 out of 50. Efficiency over quantity any day. :rockon:

[pauk]

I'll take Melo. 13 out of 27 > 17 out of 50. Efficiency over quantity any day. :rockon:

ok then...

JAMISON (9 of 16 - 56%) & GASOL (9 of 18 - 50%) > CARMELO & JORDAN & KOBE & LEBRON

:confusedshrug:

and thats not efficiency.... thats accuracy based on selected cherry picked shots...


this is EFFICIENCY:


http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2008-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2009-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2010-clutch-stats.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/2011-clutch-stats.jpg

[pauk]

and once again.... you keep also ignoring the playoffs.... where it matters....

where carmelo has been choking, not winning a single playoff series in years.... compared to lebron who has put up some of the most memorable performances in NBA history

[knickswin]

I really don't know if the Lebron diss is due to blatant hating or if people really are this stupid or lacking basketball knowledge.

Through 8 years, Lebron has been the far superior player in every way and it's not even close (Lebron is routinely ranked top 2, mostly at 1, for the past half a decade on every list while Melo is anywhere from 8 to 20 throughout the same time period).

All this Lebron is a choker thing... the only material is this year's Finals. What about his ridiculous 25 point 4th quarter vs the Pistons that, literally, trumps anything Melo has done in his entire career?

Two game winners in his first playoff series against the Wizards in 06? The game winner against the Magic in 09? Several daggers vs the Bulls in 2010 first round? This year's shots against Celtics and Bulls? Dropping 40 whatever in game 7 and scaring every Boston fan in 08?

Melo's had maybe three playoff games close to anything I just listed. That big game in game 2 vs the Celtics this year, and probably two during the 09 run. that's it. His playoff stats and performances have stunked otherwise. Check his numbers in 2004, 2005, 2006, etc.

Lebron vs Melo isn't a discussion. The only topic Melo can win is "who had the better rookie year?" (arguable) and "who has the better midrange J" (Melo wins this one). Otherwise, Lebron beats Melo in every other form of bball talk imaginable.

I personally think it's Carmelo who's gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to reputation. Like, maybe it isn't hating on Lebron to think that Carmelo might be better at certain things, maybe it's hating on Carmelo to think that he's inferior in every way to Lebron. Even though he gets a lot of hate, Lebron's been ESPN's golden boy since he was in high school and Carmelo's been an afterthought.

To me, there's still a contest. Lebron isn't a champion yet. In fact, until this year Carmelo had beaten more 50+ win teams in the playoffs. I think the whole Eastern Conference versus Western Conference thing gets understated in this debate. Carmelo actually played better against the Spurs in 2007 than Lebron did. I think these next few seasons will be crucial in determining their mettle.

[knickswin]

and once again.... you keep also ignoring the playoffs.... where it matters....

where carmelo has been choking, not winning a single playoff series in years.... compared to lebron who has put up some of the most memorable performances in NBA history

Carmelo put up some really good numbers against the Spurs and Lakers in losing efforts too, but nobody wants to give him any credit for that.

[asdf1990]

Regular season- melo by a landslide. Playoffs lebron be a landslide.

[Asukal]

and once again.... you keep also ignoring the playoffs.... where it matters....

where carmelo has been choking, not winning a single playoff series in years.... compared to lebron who has put up some of the most memorable performances in NBA history

Man, stats don't lie but doesn't tell the whole story. Lebron took 50 attempts and Carmelo took 27 in the clutch, does this automatically mean that Carmelo cherrypicked his game winning shots? Would it be possible that Lebron were in more close games than Carmelo? Is it possible Carmelo played a more team oriented concept and passed out to the open guy instead of taking a contested last second shot ala Kobe? You see there's always more to it than just stats. If you want to prove Lebron is better than Carmelo in crunch time then do an indepth analysis of their 50 and 27 game winning attempts. Provide enough data to support your cause, videos are welcome. Maybe then people might change their minds. :D

[OmniStrife]

When LeBron is not collapsing under pressure, he's clutch as **** and unstoppable. (Bulls, Celtics series.)

Too bad he has yet to conquer his demons.

Melo? He's a good offensive player, but I can't judge his clutchness.

True clutchness is judged on the big stage, when it matters.

Regular season game winners are nice, but nothing more.

[knightfall88]

When LeBron is not collapsing under pressure, he's clutch as **** and unstoppable. (Bulls, Celtics series.)



so when Lebron is not choking, he is clutch? logic win

[madmax]

Lebron was always a clutch player...
One bad series does not a choker make. Everyone keeps on forgetting that if Lebron doesn't hit those clutch buckets against Bulls prior to the Mavs series, Heat would have most probably lost the EC finals. All of the raw and advanced stats point to Lebron being the best clutch player in NBA over the last few years...what else is there to discuss?:confusedshrug:

[OmniStrife]

so when Lebron is not choking, he is clutch? logic win
Yes, why is that so hard to grasp? Sports are not always black and white.

LeBron was great in decisive shots and in end game situations, and just like his bad play in the last games of the finals, you can't take the good ones away.

Just like Wade was no where to be found in some ECF games, yet hailed as the new coming of MJ in the finals.

[Sarcastic]

and once again.... you keep also ignoring the playoffs.... where it matters....

where carmelo has been choking, not winning a single playoff series in years.... compared to lebron who has put up some of the most memorable performances in NBA history

If Lebron played the teams that Melo did in the first round in the Western Conference, Lebron would never have gotten out of the first round as well.

Lebron vs the Western Conference in the playoffs has been awful. Just check his stats vs the Spurs and Mavericks.

[pauk]

If Lebron played the teams that Melo did in the first round in the Western Conference, Lebron would never have gotten out of the first round as well.

Lebron vs the Western Conference in the playoffs has been awful. Just check his stats vs the Spurs and Mavericks.


oh please..... look what he did to the #1 Defensive Rating teams in Orlando Magic and latest time the Chicago Bulls.....

stop trying to excuse Carmelo being a LESS of a player....

Nobody is denying Carmelo being a great player.... but he is not at Lebrons level and never was (arguably rookie season) and never will be....

[knickscity]

oh please..... look what he did to the #1 Defensive Rating teams in Orlando Magic and latest time the Chicago Bulls.....

stop trying to excuse Carmelo being a LESS of a player....

Nobody is denying Carmelo being a great player.... but he is not at Lebrons level and never was (arguably rookie season) and never will be....
Didn't LeBron lose to the Magic?

[Sarcastic]

oh please..... look what he did to the #1 Defensive Rating teams in Orlando Magic and latest time the Chicago Bulls.....

stop trying to excuse Carmelo being a LESS of a player....

Nobody is denying Carmelo being a great player.... but he is not at Lebrons level and never was (arguably rookie season) and never will be....

First of all, Melo took his team to the playoffs every year he was in Denver, and that's in the Western Conference which was much better than the East. It took Lebron about 3 years before he even made it to the playoffs.

Secondly, when he got there Melo was playing teams with 50+ wins almost all the time. Lebron was playing cupcakes like the Washington Wizards and New Jersey Nets.

If you put Lebron up against the teams Melo saw, his numbers would look like dog poo, just like they did against the Mavs this year.

[Clutch]

First of all, Melo took his team to the playoffs every year he was in Denver, and that's in the Western Conference which was much better than the East. It took Lebron about 3 years before he even made it to the playoffs.

Secondly, when he got there Melo was playing teams with 50+ wins almost all the time. Lebron was playing cupcakes like the Washington Wizards and New Jersey Nets.

If you put Lebron up against the teams Melo saw, his numbers would look like dog poo, just like they did against the Mavs this year.
:applause:

[DMAVS41]

depends on how you define "clutch"....I'd rather have Lebron on my team entering the last 6 or so minutes of a tight game....

but i'd take melo for sure in a game winning situation...not even close really. melo is easily the best game winning player in the game and has been for about 8 years now. cp3 is also way up there in game winning situations...as is Dirk.

but overall for the last 6 minutes or a 4th qtr....give me Lebron (outside of his putrid finals)...he's pretty much easily been the best late game player in the league for a while now.

[HylianNightmare]

lebron will make a good play in the clutch, melo will take a good shot in the clutch

[JellyBean]

Melo. Have u seen La-La? That is clutch right there.

[icewill36]

both are clutch as hell but id probably go with bron overall, like last 5 minutes of a close game. like if i need a guy to really takeover in more ways than just scoring im going with lebron.

if theres 10 seconds on the clock and i need a bucket id probably take melo. he creates shots easier for himself than lebron IMO, and he can post up and bully smaller defenders which makes it even easier to get a solid look. his jab step, and pull up is unguardable because of his quick feet and quick release. melo is like dirk in the way that when he faces up 18-20 ft from the basket you are completely at his mercy.

cant really go wrong either, though

[pegasus]

Lebron can't even spell the word "clutch"; Melo, on the other hand, can write a book about it.

[RRR3]

Lebron can't even spell the word "clutch"; Melo, on the other hand, can write a book about it.
Which is why lebron gets past the first round and melo doesn't right? Sad agenda is sad.

[catch24]

Melo is by far the more clutch scorer. I'd take Lebron to get me a defensive stop or playmake (i.e., find a man open).

[chazzy]

Give me Melo for the last shot easily

[asdf1990]

Lebron can't even spell the word "clutch"; Melo, on the other hand, can write a book about it.

He can also write a book on how to choke in the first round.

[L8kersfan222]

Oh so now the playoffs count Pauk? :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

:oldlol:
How is this even a question?

[NuggetsFan]

Carmelo is arguably #1 in terms of hitting that last second shot. Him vs 'Bron in that regard isn't close IMO. However as a whole? I don't really know. It's subjective. When is the cut off for "clutch", 5 minutes left? 4th quarter?.

Melo's offensive game makes him comfortable shooting the ball from anywhere. Under 20 seconds left in a game and I'm taking him. I would have took Bron if there's a 4th quarter left. After the Miami series I honestly have no idea where he stands with me. Wasn't even the production that turned me off, it was his lack of aggression. I know Melo would go 0-15 if he needed to. No just sit in the corner being passive.

[Sarcastic]

He can also write a book on how to choke in the first round.

How did the Nuggets choke when they were the underdog almost every time?

How many times did the Cavs have HCA throughout, and still lost? Didn't the Heat have HCA over the Mavs too?

[NuggetsFan]

How did the Nuggets choke when they were the underdog almost every time?

How many times did the Cavs have HCA throughout, and still lost? Didn't the Heat have HCA over the Mavs too?

Melo didn't "choke" like you said facing better teams. Was an 8th seed one time when he was on a 50 win team. However he's had some stinkers in the playoffs. He's not in that LeBron tier tho so people let it slide because of the competition witch I guess is understandable. If LeBron had some of those Carmelo games tho, ISH would have blown up.

[D-Wade316]

Lebron can't even spell the word "clutch"; Melo, on the other hand, can write a book about it.
:lol

[RRR3]

:lol
Just ignore pegashit. He still butthurt lbj raped the bulls in the ecf.

[Sarcastic]

Melo didn't "choke" like you said facing better teams. Was an 8th seed one time when he was on a 50 win team. However he's had some stinkers in the playoffs. He's not in that LeBron tier tho so people let it slide because of the competition witch I guess is understandable. If LeBron had some of those Carmelo games tho, ISH would have blown up.

I am not saying he is better than Lebron, but he didn't get to play the Wizards or the Nets in the playoffs either. He also never had HCA throughout the playoffs. I think there is maybe 1 or 2 times that the Nuggets lost as a higher seed, and that was a 4/5 matchup.

[D-Wade316]

Just ignore pegashit. He still butthurt lbj raped the bulls in the ecf.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yep. He butthurt

:banana: :banana: :banana:
HATERS GONNA HATE

[pegasus]

Just ignore pegashit. He still butthurt lbj raped the bulls in the ecf.

Yet in the finals, Lebron played like he was the one who had just been raped. All timid and passive. :lol

[RRR3]

Yet in the finals, Lebron played like he was the one who had just been raped. All timid and passive. :lol
U mad.:roll:

[pegasus]

U mad.:roll:

No come back? Ya burnt!:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yet in the finals, Lebron played like he was the one who had just been raped. All timid and passive. :lol

:lol

[pauk]

notice who those people are, that say carmelo is more clutch or better and so on.... only kobetards/calis/laker fans aka Lebron Haters...

pegasus
deuce bigalow
chazzy
L8kersfan222
JellyBean
HylianNightmare
Asukal
catch24
rooster
v1ncelis
cali syndicate

their agenda is obvious all the time....... its funny because they probably hate carmelo to deep down inside... and deep down inside know who is more clutch (i did spam them with facts so they should know) and they really cant be that stupid (or maybe im wrong)... but they dont give a damn... just anything over Lebron.. anybody.... just anybody BUT lebron... and they will be happy....

[chazzy]

Explain to me how Lebron is a better game winning shot maker, pauk..

[pauk]

Explain to me how Lebron is a better game winning shot maker, pauk..

Let me ask you this....

Do you think Kobe is more clutch than Carmelo..........? Yes or No...

If you say YES.... then you are contradicting yourself.. because Carmelo hits much higher % of his gamewinners than Kobe... that is the only logic used here afterall...

If you say NO.... then ok, your logic is valid... Carmelo > Kobe & Lebron




to answer your question.... i thought i already did explain how Lebron (and Kobe) is more clutch.. or excuse me, FACTS explained it themselves who is more clutch....

[chazzy]

Let me ask you this....

Do you think Kobe is more clutch than Carmelo..........? Yes or No...




to answer your question.... i thought i already did explain how he is more clutch.. or excuse me, FACTS explained it themselves who is more clutch....
All I said was Melo is a better at game winners, which isn't that arguable imo

[pauk]

All I said was Melo is a better at game winners, which isn't that arguable imo

ok..

the same way Antawn Jamison & Pau Gasol are better at gamewinners then.... :confusedshrug:

Jamison > Gasol > Carmelo > Lebron > Kobe.... in terms of gamewinners.. using YOUR logic..

Lebron & kobe > Carmelo & everybody else... using MY logic.. and that logic is FACTS of a combination/overall clutch productions / performances & gamewinners in both season & playoffs....

[RRR3]

notice who those people are, that say carmelo is more clutch or better and so on.... only kobetards/calis/laker fans aka Lebron Haters...

pegasus
deuce bigalow
chazzy
L8kersfan222
JellyBean
HylianNightmare
Asukal
catch24
rooster
v1ncelis
cali syndicate

their agenda is obvious all the time....... its funny because they probably hate carmelo to deep down inside... and deep down inside know who is more clutch (i did spam them with facts so they should know) and they really cant be that stupid (or maybe im wrong)... but they dont give a damn... just anything over Lebron.. anybody.... just anybody BUT lebron... and they will be happy....

WTF HylianNightmare, Asukal, Catch24 and Chazzy aren't Kobe stans. :facepalm

[pauk]

WTF HylianNightmare, Asukal, Catch24 and Chazzy aren't Kobe stans. :facepalm

notice the "Laker fans" or "Lebron Haters"..... there is no denying 99.9% of Laker fans hate Lebron.... or simply... dont give a damn about him...

Chazzy especially is a notorious Lebron hater... would expect u to learn that after all this time...

[RRR3]

notice the "Laker fans"..... there is no denying 99.9% of Laker fans hate Lebron.... or simply... dont give a damn about him...

Chazzy especially is a notorious Lebron hater... would expect u to learn that after all this time...
:facepalm If you think catch24, who is one of the better posters here IMO, is a "LeBron hater", then I really don't know what to think. Come on, brah.

[pauk]

:facepalm If you think catch24, who is one of the better posters here IMO, is a "LeBron hater", then I really don't know what to think. Come on, brah.

You can have basketball knowledge & intelligence.... and be a hater.... its very much possible.... trust me... Catch24 just like a couple of more here is what i call "Diplomatic Lebron haters"....

i dont care... denying facts = hater... no matter who you are

i showed them by facts that Lebron has overall been much better in the clutch factoring PLAYOFFS to....

and they sit here and ignore everything but ONE thing... gamewinning shot % to say that Carmelo is more clutch or "better at gamewinners".... a logic which doesnt make sense... because that would mean Gasol & Jamison are the best...

[D-Wade316]

:facepalm If you think catch24, who is one of the better posters here IMO, is a "LeBron hater", then I really don't know what to think. Come on, brah.
Agree. The guy is easily the best Kobe fan in ISH.

[chazzy]

ok..

the same way Antawn Jamison & Pau Gasol are better at gamewinners then.... :confusedshrug:

Jamison > Gasol > Carmelo > Lebron > Kobe.... in terms of gamewinners.. using YOUR logic..

(Not including Lebron's 2011 misses)
Carmelo Anthony
FGM: 21 FGA: 44 47.7%
LeBron James
FGM: 23 FGA: 69 33.3%


There's a big enough sample size to see that he's just simply a better shot maker with the game on the line. Also considering they're both perimeter star players who create for themselves, the circumstances for their shot attempts are similar.

[chazzy]

Chazzy especially is a notorious Lebron hater... would expect u to learn that after all this time...
You just hate me because I call out your alt accounts sh0wtime/whatever666 :oldlol:

[pauk]

(Not including Lebron's 2011 misses)
Carmelo Anthony FGM: 21 FGA: 44 47.7%
LeBron James FGM: 23 FGA: 69 33.3%


There's a big enough sample size to see that he's just simply a better shot maker with the game on the line. Also considering they're both perimeter star players who create for themselves, the circumstances for their shot attempts are similar.

In the season yes Carmelo has been better in terms of Gamewinners, even better than Kobe... i know.. yes.. i get your point.... he has been better in gamewinners in the season.... but are you seriously insane enough to say that he is more clutch than Lebron or Kobe just because of that???

But then you keep denying playoffs...... and that clutchness is also:

Making a gamewinning block
Making a gamewinning assist
Making a gamewinning rebound
Making a gamewinning steal
Making gamewinning shut down defense
Averaging the most points in the 4th quarter during any minute and situation

all these things which Lebron (and even Kobe) kill Carmelo at.......... and they do it in PLAYOFFS aswell (with results, with team success!)...... where Carmelos nifty higher % gamewinners dont play ANY FACTOR... because his gamewinners are ZERO in the playoffs compared to Lebron & Kobe....

[Sarcastic]

In the season yes Carmelo has been better in terms of Gamewinners, even better than Kobe... i know.. yes.. i get your point.... he has been better in gamewinners in the season.... but are you seriously insane enough to say that he is more clutch than Lebron or Kobe just because of that???

But then you keep denying playoffs...... and that clutchness is also:

Making a gamewinning block
Making a gamewinning assist
Making a gamewinning rebound
Making a gamewinning steal
Making gamewinning shut down defense
Averaging the most points in the 4th quarter during any minute and situation

all these things which Lebron (and even Kobe) kill Carmelo at.......... and they do it in PLAYOFFS aswell...... where Carmelos nifty higher % gamewinners dont play ANY FACTOR... because his gamewinners are ZERO in the playoffs compared to Lebron & Kobe....


But you keep on not taking into account that Lebron has played cupcakes in the playoffs, and Melo has played teams that average about 50+ wins in the playoffs.

[chazzy]

In the season yes Carmelo has been better in terms of Gamewinners, even better than Kobe... i know.. yes.. i get your point.... he has been better in gamewinners in the season.... but are you seriously insane enough to say that he is more clutch than Lebron or Kobe just because of that???
I never said anything about him being more clutch overall you weirdo, you agreed my initial statement of him being a better at game winners and that's that.

[pauk]

But you keep on not taking into account that Lebron has played cupcakes in the playoffs, and Melo has played teams that average about 50+ wins in the playoffs.

and Lebron & Kobe have not?? :confusedshrug:

Did you see what Lebron did to that 50+ win team (Celtics) who swept Carmelo in the 1st round? Did you?

My intestines burst out laughing any time i hear somebody saying Carmelo is more clutch than Lebron or Kobe or Nowitzki or something like that.... these guys have PROVED themselves where it MATTERED with their clutchness.... Carmelo has NOT

[pauk]

I never said anything about him being more clutch overall you weirdo, you agreed my initial statement of him being a better at game winners and that's that.

ok then... just suspected you were trying to use that better season % gamewinners to say Carmelo has been overall more clutch... you never know, you are a Kobe/Laker fan... and you know how most of them are here.. especially against me... so... :lol

[tpols]

and Lebron & Kobe have not?? :confusedshrug:

Did you see what Lebron did to that 50+ win team (Celtics) who swept Carmelo in the 1st round? Did you?
Kobe sure as hell hasn't.:oldlol:

Defensive monster Spurs year in and year out
Defensive monster Kings year in and year out
50+ win Nuggets
50+ win Rockets
60+ win Suns year in and year out

versus the Nets, Wizards, old Pistons..

And every tough playoff opponent Lebron has faced, like the 08-10 celtics and the 09 Magic, Kobe has faced in the Finals and beaten.
:basketball

[Sarcastic]

and Lebron & Kobe have not?? :confusedshrug:

Did you see what Lebron did to that 50+ win team (Celtics) who swept Carmelo in the 1st round? Did you?

My intestines burst out laughing any time i hear somebody saying Carmelo is more clutch than Lebron or Kobe or Nowitzki or something like that.... these guys have PROVED themselves where it MATTERED with their clutchness.... Carmelo has NOT

Lebron lost to the Celtics twice, before he created his super team to finally beat them.

Amar'e was hurt after game 1, and the Knicks were a completely depleted team. However we saw a glimpse of what Carmelo can do when he blew up for 42 and 17 in game 2. The Knicks just don't have enough personnel yet to handle the Celtics, plus their coach is awful. He lost a few of those games just by being outcoached by Rivers.

[yellowmelo]

I wouldnt let Lebrick get the last shot if the hoop was only 7ft

[L8kersfan222]

I wouldnt let Lebrick get the last shot if the hoop was only 7ft
:applause:

[Dave3]

Again with the vague "clutch" term. We had a thread a couple months ago during the season (almost none of those posters are here anymore) about "clutch" and how it's misunderstood by so many people that watch for just highlights.

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?&p=5497174#post5497174

And because many of you will be too lazy to click:

"Is Clutch Overrated?

I wouldn't necessarily say so. Being clutch is very key in leading teams to wins. Unfortunately though what is overrated is the identification of clutch. It's very difficult to rate the level of clutch play of an individual without regularly watching them. Clutch isn't just making a jumper with 2 seconds left. Clutch is playing consistently as the pressure increased, not wavering under the stress of the situation. It's being able to score when the other team is making a run, it's making a good play (whether defensive, assist, score, or rebound) when your team needs it, because you recognize that your team needs it, and you're the one relied upon to give it to them. Over years of watching LeBron, I would say he is very clutch. Does that mean I'd want him taking a 20 foot jumper to win the game over Kobe? Definitely not, because it's fact that Kobe is a better jump shooter, especially as all his shots come highly contested from that range and he's still able to bury about 40% from that range. Would I want the ball in LeBron's hands though with 10-15 seconds to create? I would say so because he has the advantage in getting to the basket, as well as collapsing the defense for a very wide open shot for a teammate (has happened on numerous occasions, with players like Mo and Delonte).

The fact of the matter though is these clutch stats need to be taken in context. If Zack Randolph has an equal percentage as Kobe, it's not because he's as good in the clutch. It's because Kobe's probably way more heavily guarded in that situation, and so the shots he takes are consequently more difficult. People need to stop trying to quantify "clutch" though and ranking players on clutch ability, because it's too much of an intangible thing (like leadership) to try and rank/quantify."

- again, I'm not the one who posted this.

[Dave3]

Sparknotes version: Give me LeBron to make the come back when down by 10 in the 4th, or make the play down the stretch.

Give me Melo to shoot the game winning jumper.

Seems accurate enough.

[PTB Fan]

Melo. Arguably the top clutch shooter in the game these days. However, LeBron elevates his game better overall when it matters. Still, if this was for game winners only, give me Melo

[christian1923]

The only reason i watched heat games was to watch lebron choke at the end.

Give me melo, fast.

[Bigsmoke]

Melo

[asdf1990]

its just ridiculous how melo gets a pass for being 1-7 in the first round and 0-4 in the cupcake eastern conference ( countless shots he could have made to win just one game). while lebron gets annihilated for making the finals and choking and everyone forgets about lebrons clutch performances against the celtics and the bulls. While melo who has had one clutch moment in his whole playoff career and even that was cuz the ref didn't call a foul, is a clutch god.

[Sarcastic]

its just ridiculous how melo gets a pass for being 1-7 in the first round and 0-4 in the cupcake eastern conference ( countless shots he could have made to win just one game). while lebron gets annihilated for making the finals and choking and everyone forgets about lebrons clutch performances against the celtics and the bulls. While melo who has had one clutch moment in his whole playoff career and even that was cuz the ref didn't call a foul, is a clutch god.

What do you mean 0-4 in the cupcake Eastern conference? He has been in the Eastern Conference for not even half a season on a team that was completely depleted of depth, and had it's other star hurt.

What's Lebron's record vs the Western Conference in the playoffs?

[bdreason]

LeBron is still the more dynamic player and I would rather have the ball in his hands at the end of the game. That said, I think Melo is the better isolation scorer, and I certainly have no problem ISOing Melo for a last shot.

[Kevin_Gamble]

LeBron is still the more dynamic player and I would rather have the ball in his hands at the end of the game. That said, I think Melo is the better isolation scorer, and I certainly have no problem ISOing Melo for a last shot.

Yeah but if you had a choice, would you give the ball to Melo over Lebron, except maybe for the element of surprise? I wouldn't. Lebron simply belongs to a different tier.

[asdf1990]

What do you mean 0-4 in the cupcake Eastern conference? He has been in the Eastern Conference for not even half a season on a team that was completely depleted of depth, and had it's other star hurt.

What's Lebron's record vs the Western Conference in the playoffs?

better than melos against the eastern conference . which is just a disgrace since melo is the clutchest player to come since Jordan according to many. lebron played with a team that had west/big z/ old ben wallace/ wally as the starting unit and was able to win three games against a prime celtic team...

[DMAVS41]

Melo is by far the more clutch scorer. I'd take Lebron to get me a defensive stop or playmake (i.e., find a man open).

I don't know about that....I think Lebron has been leading the league in scoring in crunch time (or close to the top) for a few years now.

[DMAVS41]

Wait....are people actually claiming they'd rather have Lebron over Melo for a game winner?

LOL....after last year....Melo is over 50% for his career on game winners and has about as many makes as Lebron. He's shooting over 20% better than Lebron in these situations.

Its really not close. Melo has easily been the best game winning shot maker overall these last 8 years....easily.

[Clutch]

Wait....are people actually claiming they'd rather have Lebron over Melo for a game winner?

LOL....after last year....Melo is over 50% for his career on game winners and has about as many makes as Lebron. He's shooting over 20% better than Lebron in these situations.

Its really not close. Melo has easily been the best game winning shot maker overall these last 8 years....easily.
this :applause:

[LBJ 23]

The only reason i watched heat games was to watch lebron choke at the end.

Give me melo, fast.


True definiton of a basketball fan

[Deuce Bigalow]

Lebron easily, his clutch performances in the 2011 finals are legendary, its not even close

[tpols]

better than melos against the eastern conference . which is just a disgrace since melo is the clutchest player to come since Jordan according to many. lebron played with a team that had west/big z/ old ben wallace/ wally as the starting unit and was able to win three games against a prime celtic team...
You're basically saying that Lebron is a much better basketball player than Melo.. which we all know. This thread is about clutch play.. which Lebron is better at minus gamewinners.

[Sarcastic]

better than melos against the eastern conference . which is just a disgrace since melo is the clutchest player to come since Jordan according to many. lebron played with a team that had west/big z/ old ben wallace/ wally as the starting unit and was able to win three games against a prime celtic team...

Bolded is a hell of a lot better than the Knicks had for the playoffs. Remember, Amar'e got hurt early on.

[bdreason]

Wait....are people actually claiming they'd rather have Lebron over Melo for a game winner?

LOL....after last year....Melo is over 50% for his career on game winners and has about as many makes as Lebron. He's shooting over 20% better than Lebron in these situations.

Its really not close. Melo has easily been the best game winning shot maker overall these last 8 years....easily.


And if the opposing team throws a quality double on the post, or collapse the lane on the drive, then what?


And please don't tell me Melo is a good passer. Please.

[Ikill]

better than melos against the eastern conference . which is just a disgrace since melo is the clutchest player to come since Jordan according to many. lebron played with a team that had west/big z/ old ben wallace/ wally as the starting unit and was able to win three games against a prime celtic team...
it wasn't cause of Lebron they went 7 games dude played like shit

[knickswin]

And if the opposing team throws a quality double on the post, or collapse the lane on the drive, then what?


And please don't tell me Melo is a good passer. Please.

He can pass the ball out of a double, I've seen him do it many times.

[Ikill]

And if the opposing team throws a quality double on the post, or collapse the lane on the drive, then what?


And please don't tell me Melo is a good passer. Please.
he is

[RRR3]

he is
He should do it more often then.

[knickswin]

He should do it more often then.

yes, he should

[EricForman]

First of all, Melo took his team to the playoffs every year he was in Denver, and that's in the Western Conference which was much better than the East. It took Lebron about 3 years before he even made it to the playoffs.

Secondly, when he got there Melo was playing teams with 50+ wins almost all the time. Lebron was playing cupcakes like the Washington Wizards and New Jersey Nets.

If you put Lebron up against the teams Melo saw, his numbers would look like dog poo, just like they did against the Mavs this year.


Nice to completely ignore supporting casts.

You think any of the Cavs team from 2003 to 2010 could go off on a run like that after trading Lebron away?

Melo's cast has been above average to good his entire tenure there.

[CelticBaller]

the man in my avatar

[christian1923]

Nice to completely ignore supporting casts.

You think any of the Cavs team from 2003 to 2010 could go off on a run like that after trading Lebron away?

Melo's cast has been above average to good his entire tenure there.

melos teams didnt really become all that good till like 07 or 08

[L8kersfan222]

You think any of the Cavs team from 2003 to 2010 could go off on a run like that after trading Lebron away?
:facepalm l0ngcat this phakkit

[Cali Syndicate]

notice who those people are, that say carmelo is more clutch or better and so on.... only kobetards/calis/laker fans aka Lebron Haters...

pegasus
deuce bigalow
chazzy
L8kersfan222
JellyBean
HylianNightmare
Asukal
catch24
rooster
v1ncelis
cali syndicate

their agenda is obvious all the time....... its funny because they probably hate carmelo to deep down inside... and deep down inside know who is more clutch (i did spam them with facts so they should know) and they really cant be that stupid (or maybe im wrong)... but they dont give a damn... just anything over Lebron.. anybody.... just anybody BUT lebron... and they will be happy....

I'm far from a Lebron hater but I do hate the Lakers. I'm from NorCal, Warriors all day playa!

Also I don't even like Kobe, never have, never will. But I do respect his game. He is by far one of the more intriguing player's of his era.

And contrary to what you believe, I haven't even expressed my opinion on this matter. My post only mentioned a made game winner from Melo that was taken away from a smart defensive move from Ginobli.

[DMAVS41]

And if the opposing team throws a quality double on the post, or collapse the lane on the drive, then what?


And please don't tell me Melo is a good passer. Please.

He's a fine passer....just not as good as Lebron. Its hard to straight double in these situations because that means a for sure open shot for a teammate unless the player with the ball forces up a shot or turns it over....

There is a reason why Melo is so good at these....8 years and counting and he's on his way to being arguably the best game winning shot maker of all time. This is MJ and Bird shit so far.....50% on something around 26 makes already is insane.

[jacobgoindum]

LOL @ Lechoker garbage in the clutch

[Jacks3]

LeBron's clutch-time numbers blow Melo away and he's a much better post-season performer. lol @ Melo being more clutch. SMH

[tpols]

LeBron's clutch-time numbers blow Melo away and he's a much better post-season performer. lol @ Melo being more clutch. SMH
Yea.. Lebron is definitely more clutch.

People here are putting WAY too much emphasis on gamewinners stats. The thing is.. most close games dont end with a GW attempt. Most games that go down to the wire are decided at the 2, 3, or 1 minute mark where one team grabs a four or five point lead and holds on. Just look at the numbers.. some of these guys have 20-40 game winner attempts in hundreds and hundreds of NBA games. You know they were involved in a lot more close games than 20 or 40.. so the other 100 or so close games where they got their team the W before the final seconds of the game aren't really being looked at.

Lebron is much better at closing teams out or catching up in the final minutes of games.. and that is worth a lot more than a flashy gamewinner here or there.

[Bladers]

(Not including Lebron's 2011 misses)
Carmelo Anthony
FGM: 21 FGA: 44 47.7%
LeBron James
FGM: 23 FGA: 69 33.3%


There's a big enough sample size to see that he's just simply a better shot maker with the game on the line. Also considering they're both perimeter star players who create for themselves, the circumstances for their shot attempts are similar.

Add 9 more misses there from 2011 and that will bring him blow 30%.

Melo also hit acouple in the 2011 reg season.

[Bladers]

What do you mean 0-4 in the cupcake Eastern conference? He has been in the Eastern Conference for not even half a season on a team that was completely depleted of depth, and had it's other star hurt.

What's Lebron's record vs the Western Conference in the playoffs?

Lebron has only beaten one 50 win team in the playoffs in his entire career (as a cavs).

[knightfall88]

Lebron has only beaten one 50 win team in the playoffs in his entire career (as a cavs).

And they were the old, injured and soon to be disbanded detroit pistons

[EricForman]

Lebron has only beaten one 50 win team in the playoffs in his entire career (as a cavs).


And Melo had beaten zero until 2009... SIX YEARS into the league. If you're gonna throw out qualifiers (like eliminating the Miami years) then we could do qualifiers for Melo too. Basically aside from 2009 Melo has gone out in the first round eveyr year of his career. Every single year.

[EricForman]

BTW, hasn't Melo only beaten ONE 50 win team his entire career too? In 2009 (the only year his team went anywhere), he beat a mediocre Hornets team that didn't win 50 and then they beat the Mavs before losing to Lakers.

So Melo's only beaten one too

[L8kersfan222]

:mad:
yep, mad.

[airchibundo507]

BTW, hasn't Melo only beaten ONE 50 win team his entire career too? In 2009 (the only year his team went anywhere), he beat a mediocre Hornets team that didn't win 50 and then they beat the Mavs before losing to Lakers.

So Melo's only beaten one too

it puts Melo's postseason shortcomings into perspective

[Dave3]

BTW, hasn't Melo only beaten ONE 50 win team his entire career too? In 2009 (the only year his team went anywhere), he beat a mediocre Hornets team that didn't win 50 and then they beat the Mavs before losing to Lakers.

So Melo's only beaten one too
Actually technically 0 since the Hornets didn't win 50 games lol. But it doesn't matter. LeBron is compared to much higher standards because he's a better player. By criticizing LeBron for doing things "only once" that Melo never has it shows they obviously think LeBron is compared to a higher standard, and they they know he's better.

[airchibundo507]

Actually technically 0 since the Hornets didn't win 50 games lol. But it doesn't matter. LeBron is compared to much higher standards because he's a better player. By criticizing LeBron for doing things "only once" that Melo never has it shows they obviously think LeBron is compared to a higher standard, and they they know he's better.

I assume he was referring to the Mavs as the 50-win team. Regardless, a superstar should have higher postseason expectations playing in a conference that's regularly weaker.

[knightfall88]

this only proves how silly it is comparing Lebron to all time greats when he achieved much the same as Melo in the post season.

[Bladers]

And Melo had beaten zero until 2009... SIX YEARS into the league. If you're gonna throw out qualifiers (like eliminating the Miami years) then we could do qualifiers for Melo too. Basically aside from 2009 Melo has gone out in the first round eveyr year of his career. Every single year.

LOL. I haven't seen such great apologetics, no not in ISH. EVER!

I eliminated the Miami years because Lebron changed teams and is no more the man on his team.

The same would be done for melo if he went to join wade and bosh.
We would say. Wait a minute. Before his co-hut with wade and bosh he weren't doing shit.
So why not hold Lebron under the same fair assessment standard? Why is he exempt?

[Dave3]

I assume he was referring to the Mavs as the 50-win team. Regardless, a superstar should have higher postseason expectations playing in a conference that's regularly weaker.
Oh my bad, had a brain fart.

But the conference strength thing becomes irrelevant when the criteria of 50 win team comes up, because it's not about your playoff success vs. your conference, it's your playoff success against a specific type of team not exclusive to either conference.

[Bladers]

Oh my bad, had a brain fart.

But the conference strength thing becomes irrelevant when the criteria of 50 win team comes up, because it's not about your playoff success vs. your conference, it's your playoff success against a specific type of team not exclusive to either conference.

But Melo has faced more 50 win teams than Lebron has. Lebron has the luxury of playing teams like nets, wizards, pistons in the first round. If Melo got to play those teams, he would like wise have as many first round success as Lebron.

[Dave3]

But Melo has faced more 50 win teams than Lebron has. Lebron has the luxury of playing teams like nets, wizards, pistons in the first round. If Melo got to play those teams, he would like wise have as many first round success as Lebron.
I was on the topic of 50 win teams specifically. Conference doesn't apply to that.

[airchibundo507]

Oh my bad, had a brain fart.

But the conference strength thing becomes irrelevant when the criteria of 50 win team comes up, because it's not about your playoff success vs. your conference, it's your playoff success against a specific type of team not exclusive to either conference.

You don't think the Nuggets with Melo would destroy the 06 Wizards in a series? Simple question.

[Dave3]

You don't think the Nuggets with Melo would destroy the 06 Wizards in a series? Simple question.
When did I ever say they wouldn't? That wasn't the point I was addressing at all though. If we're going to argue that I'd need to do it tomorrow not tonight as I'm going to sleep any minute. My point was much simpler than that. With respect to victories over 50 win teams, the expectations are higher for LeBron.

Edit: The question shouldn't be whether the Nuggets would get past the '06 Wiz. It should be whether Melo with the Cavs would. That question in my opinion is harder to answer.

[airchibundo507]

When did I ever say they wouldn't. That wasn't the point I was addressing at all though. If we're going to argue that I'd need to do it tomorrow not tonight as I'm going to sleep any minute. My point was much simpler than that. With respect to victories over 50 win teams, the expectations are higher for LeBron.

Okay, I agree.

[knicksman]

mentally weak and cannot shoot perimeter players cannot win in this league. And those are the components of clutch. Jordan, kobe, bird are all mentally tough who likes to talks trash and not be buddy buddys with other players. And at the same time they are the best shooters in the game. The same for melo. While lebron wants to join wade because hes so mentally weak that he thinks he cannot win on his own. Hes a frontrunner and lacks confidence. And he cant shoot. In order to hit those gamewinners, you must have a jumpshot and is not afraid to shoot. Lebron possess none of those thats why hes so unclutch.

[L8kersfan222]

When did I ever say they wouldn't? That wasn't the point I was addressing at all though. If we're going to argue that I'd need to do it tomorrow not tonight as I'm going to sleep any minute. My point was much simpler than that. With respect to victories over 50 win teams, the expectations are higher for LeBron.

Edit: The question shouldn't be whether the Nuggets would get past the '06 Wiz. It should be whether Melo with the Cavs would. That question in my opinion is harder to answer.


Dave3 flees!

[EricForman]

LOL. I haven't seen such great apologetics, no not in ISH. EVER!

I eliminated the Miami years because Lebron changed teams and is no more the man on his team.

The same would be done for melo if he went to join wade and bosh.
We would say. Wait a minute. Before his co-hut with wade and bosh he weren't doing shit.
So why not hold Lebron under the same fair assessment standard? Why is he exempt?


Let's see, Lebron has had--be honest here, you know what i'm about to say is true--a great cast one year (2011) and a good cast one year (2010) in his entire career. Other than that, from his rookie year on to 2009 he didn't have much help (Mo Williams and Z were his 2nd and 3rd best players in 09 when the Cavs won 66)

whereas Melo has had a good cast all his career.

let's leave all the excuses and qualifiers out and just conclude that, no matter how you spin it, the Nuggets' #2 through 12 has been consistently better than the Cav's #2 through 12 from 2003 to 2009 or so (maybe even 2010).

So shouldn't that fact alone cancel out how the east is supposedly weaker?

We could argue that the East hasn't been weaker since 2008, but even giving you that argument, how are you guys going to penalize something that's otu of Lebron's control?

Let me frame your argument for you right here:

"So even though Lebron's playoff stats are much better and have had many more legendary memorable performances and won many rounds, WE SHOULD IGNORE all that and pretend he hasn't done more than Melo, even though Melo has sucky playoff stats and 8 first round exits... because... because... THE WEST IS SOOOOO MUCH BETTTTERRRRR"

Um, okay. whatever you say. Guess every coach, GM, scout, NBA people is an idiot when they consider Lebron a top 2 and Melo a top 15 at best.

[EricForman]

You don't think the Nuggets with Melo would destroy the 06 Wizards in a series? Simple question.


The Nuggets with Melo would probably beat the 06 Wizards, yes. The CAVS with Melo? That's another story. And that'd be a no, because the Wizards have alot of firepower that year and we know Melo don't play D or make others better.

[L8kersfan222]

:blah :blah :blah
:sleeping apologist prime
Lebron turned Chris Bosh into a 6'11 Mo Williams, take a seat.

[airchibundo507]

The Nuggets with Melo would probably beat the 06 Wizards, yes. The CAVS with Melo? That's another story. And that'd be a no, because the Wizards have alot of firepower that year and we know Melo don't play D or make others better.

But the Cavs as a whole played great defense under a defensive specialist as head coach. Not that Melo could ever generate LeBron's defensive impact, but don't underestimate his willingness to play solid defense night in and night out for coach that really pushes it, such as his FIBA performances.

Great rebuttal, though. It's an interesting argument. Melo with the Cavs wouldn't have been seeded as highly. Could they beat the Wizards in a 4/5 first round match-up? Weren't Gilbert and Butler banged up in LeBron's series? :lol If the Cavs retained any of their defensive intensity, I'd say it would be a competitive series, far more competitive than most of Melo's first round matchups in his career.

[Sarcastic]

The Nuggets with Melo would probably beat the 06 Wizards, yes. The CAVS with Melo? That's another story. And that'd be a no, because the Wizards have alot of firepower that year and we know Melo don't play D or make others better.

You acting like Melo had deep squads in Denver. He was going to the playoffs with Andre Miller as his second best scorer at 14ppg in the West in his rookie year. Lebron couldn't even make the playoffs in the East with Big Z, Carlos Boozer, and Ricky Davis ALL putting up 15 ppg.

Lebron had just as deep teams as Melo ever had, AND he had the benefit of playing in the East, which was much much easier.

[kurple]

You acting like Melo had deep squads in Denver. He was going to the playoffs with Andre Miller as his second best scorer at 14ppg in the West in his rookie year. Lebron couldn't even make the playoffs in the East with Big Z, Carlos Boozer, and Ricky Davis ALL putting up 15 ppg.

Lebron had just as deep teams as Melo ever had, AND he had the benefit of playing in the East, which was much much easier.
LOL

but on topic, Melo is much more clutch.. But Lebron is a much better player

[EricForman]

You acting like Melo had deep squads in Denver. He was going to the playoffs with Andre Miller as his second best scorer at 14ppg in the West in his rookie year. Lebron couldn't even make the playoffs in the East with Big Z, Carlos Boozer, and Ricky Davis ALL putting up 15 ppg.

Lebron had just as deep teams as Melo ever had, AND he had the benefit of playing in the East, which was much much easier.


Boozer only played with Lebron for one year, his rookie year. you really reaching that hard to "stack Lebron's cast"?

You really wanna compare Nene, Camby, Dre/Iverson/Billups, Kmart, JR Smith, Chris Andersen vs Eric Snow, Anthony Parker, Z, Anderson Varejao?

Mo Will didn't come until 2009 btw, while Melo had all of those guys I listed for at least 75% of his entire Denver tenure.

Are you really saying with a straight face that Melo doesn't have a better cast, meaning more talent, more fire power, just better teammates, period?

[EricForman]

But the Cavs as a whole played great defense under a defensive specialist as head coach. Not that Melo could ever generate LeBron's defensive impact, but don't underestimate his willingness to play solid defense night in and night out for coach that really pushes it, such as his FIBA performances.

Great rebuttal, though. It's an interesting argument. Melo with the Cavs wouldn't have been seeded as highly. Could they beat the Wizards in a 4/5 first round match-up? Weren't Gilbert and Butler banged up in LeBron's series? :lol If the Cavs retained any of their defensive intensity, I'd say it would be a competitive series, far more competitive than most of Melo's first round matchups in his career.


Dude, Lebron is a vastly superior player to Melo (really, how the hell is this even a debate? wanna check up every single article ever written? the entire media stopped comparing the two after 05 because they knew it was too far a reach).

If Melo were on the Cavs they wouldnt have won 60+ twice in 09 and 2010, and from 05 to 08 it's questionable whether they're above .500.

[airchibundo507]

Dude, Lebron is a vastly superior player to Melo (really, how the hell is this even a debate? wanna check up every single article ever written? the entire media stopped comparing the two after 05 because they knew it was too far a reach).

If Melo were on the Cavs they wouldnt have won 60+ twice in 09 and 2010, and from 05 to 08 it's questionable whether they're above .500.

I never said Melo was better than LeBron. :wtf:

[NuggetsFan]

Lebron had just as deep teams as Melo ever had, AND he had the benefit of playing in the East, which was much much easier.

Are you kidding me? So now Melo's never had good teams? NEVER has Melo had to completely carry a team like LeBron. He's never dragged a team to the playoffs.

Billups|Lawson
AA|J.R
Melo|Harrington
K-Mart|Bird
Nene|Bird

The team he left is probably deeper than the Heat :oldlol:

Not even a question. He's played with more talent than LeBron up until this year.

[EricForman]

I never said Melo was better than LeBron. :wtf:


okay, my apologies. i assume then, we have a difference of opinion on just how big the gap is between Lebron and Melo.

Lebron, to me, is almost indisputably a top 2 over the past half a decade, while Melo is on the outside of top 10. That's a big gap. That's like comparing Hakeem to Larry Johnson in 1993. Or comparing Shaq to Antonio McDyess in 2002.

I don't think Melo with the Cavs, would beat the Wizards of Gil/Butler/Jamison, because Lebron was absolutely dominant in those series, in all facets of the game.

I also believe that Lebron's cast from 2003 to 2008 was flat out bad, and if you swap a lesser player like Melo, those teams may not even win more than 43 games.

So I disagree with your assessment on how Melo+Cavs would do against Wizards. i think they'd either get their butts kicked or not even get to the playoffs to play them.

[Sarcastic]

Boozer only played with Lebron for one year, his rookie year. you really reaching that hard to "stack Lebron's cast"?

You really wanna compare Nene, Camby, Dre/Iverson/Billups, Kmart, JR Smith, Chris Andersen vs Eric Snow, Anthony Parker, Z, Anderson Varejao?

Mo Will didn't come until 2009 btw, while Melo had all of those guys I listed for at least 75% of his entire Denver tenure.

Are you really saying with a straight face that Melo doesn't have a better cast, meaning more talent, more fire power, just better teammates, period?

Both KMart and Nene have had completely lost seasons due to injury. Iverson was there for a season and half. Billups was there for 2 seasons. Camby had a few nice seasons there, but he can never play for 82 games.

I like how you don't include Larry Hughes and Antawn Jamison, who were both 20 point scorers before they played "Lebron Ball". How convenient.

[L8kersfan222]

I like how you don't include Larry Hughes and Antawn Jamison, who were both 20 point scorers before they played "Lebron Ball". How convenient.
(EricForman grabs his ankles)

[LBJ 23]

I like how you don't include Larry Hughes and Antawn Jamison, who were both 20 point scorers before they played "Lebron Ball". How convenient.


I guess ''Lebron ball'' also affected Jamison's free throw shooting and 3 pt shooting. If I remember correctly he couldn't hit an open 3 to save his life. This ''Lebron ball'' can do wonders.

[RRR3]

I guess ''Lebron ball'' also affected Jamison's free throw shooting and 3 pt shooting. If I remember correctly he couldn't hit an open 3 to save his life. This ''Lebron ball'' can do wonders.

B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but it's all LeBron's fault!!!!!

[Sarcastic]

I guess ''Lebron ball'' also affected Jamison's free throw shooting and 3 pt shooting. If I remember correctly he couldn't hit an open 3 to save his life. This ''Lebron ball'' can do wonders.

His 3pt % was .342 and his career average is .347. Yea, he was doing a John Starks imitation. I have no explanation for the free throw dip, other than it is a very small sample size. He only averages about 3 free throws a game anyway.

[chips93]

I guess ''Lebron ball'' also affected Jamison's free throw shooting and 3 pt shooting. If I remember correctly he couldn't hit an open 3 to save his life. This ''Lebron ball'' can do wonders.

twan may not have been able to hit a free throw for his life those few months in cleveland, but lebron ball definitely limits certain players' roles.

the fact is, and i dont know how anybody can dispute it is, that lebron doesnt know how to effectively play within a team concept, or a team offense.

lebron only know how to player lebron-ball. he cant play off of the ball, he cant play in the low block, he doesnt know how to use screens very well, and if he isnt dominating the ball, he likely isnt contributing nearly as much.

guys like jamison and hughes couldnt adapt to lebron-ball, but lebron certainly didnt know how to adapt to them and facilitate them either.

[che guevara]

okay, my apologies. i assume then, we have a difference of opinion on just how big the gap is between Lebron and Melo.

Lebron, to me, is almost indisputably a top 2 over the past half a decade, while Melo is on the outside of top 10. That's a big gap. That's like comparing Hakeem to Larry Johnson in 1993. Or comparing Shaq to Antonio McDyess in 2002.

I don't think Melo with the Cavs, would beat the Wizards of Gil/Butler/Jamison, because Lebron was absolutely dominant in those series, in all facets of the game.

I also believe that Lebron's cast from 2003 to 2008 was flat out bad, and if you swap a lesser player like Melo, those teams may not even win more than 43 games.

So I disagree with your assessment on how Melo+Cavs would do against Wizards. i think they'd either get their butts kicked or not even get to the playoffs to play them.
There's really no chance of them beating the Wizards. As it was, it went 6 games and the Cavs made THREE game winners (Lebron's in games 3 and 5, Damon Jones' in game 6) with Lebron averaging 36/7.5/6 on 51% FG/60% TS - you think any version of Melo up to this point is even sniffing 36 ppg in a playoff series, let alone the efficiency and rebounding/assists? Wizards would have an easy time with that team.

Btw, all three of those game winners were in the last 5 seconds of the game, and the Cavs were behind in all three instances. Miss one and the Wizards probably win the series. You could argue the Cavs had to get a little lucky as it was to win.


Both KMart and Nene have had completely lost seasons due to injury. Iverson was there for a season and half. Billups was there for 2 seasons. Camby had a few nice seasons there, but he can never play for 82 games.

I like how you don't include Larry Hughes and Antawn Jamison, who were both 20 point scorers before they played "Lebron Ball". How convenient.
:oldlol: Jamison's scoring went down because he played 8 less minutes per game and was no longer the #1 option on an atrocious team - per 36, he averaged 19.0 per game as a Wizard and 17.5 per game as a Cav (and that was with his FT% mysteriously plummeting to 51%). About what you'd expect.

As far as Larry Hughes? Anybody who's watched his career knows he didn't suck on on the Cavs because of Lebron, he sucked on the Cavs because Larry Hughes sucks at basketball. His shot selection and BBIQ is some of the worst I've ever seen from an NBA starter.

[Sarcastic]

Washington Wizards are getting seriously overrated now. They were 42-40.

The worst team that the Nuggets ever played with Melo was the Clippers who had 47 wins.

[knickswin]

Washington Wizards are getting seriously overrated now. They were 42-40.

The worst team that the Nuggets ever played with Melo was the Clippers who had 47 wins.

yeah, and that was the year where the Nuggets got hit hard with injuries. They were throwing all types of scrubs out there.

Plus, Karl almost always got out coached in the playoffs. The Nuggets were playing street ball against Popovich and Phil Jackson most years. Pretty hard to win that way.

[jlip]

4th quarter or last 5 minutes...Lebron
Just 1 last second shot...Melo

[airchibundo507]

Washington Wizards are getting seriously overrated now. They were 42-40.

The worst team that the Nuggets ever played with Melo was the Clippers who had 47 wins.

The Clippers tanked to play the Nuggets, too. They should have been a 50 win team. Regardless, they had homecourt in that series and were the favorites going in, despite being the 6th seed.

[airchibundo507]

My premise is that Melo has been extremely unfortunate in his career. Playing in the Western Conference has put him up against championship contenders early in playoff contention. Melo has only been favored to win against 2 first round opponents. Beating only one of them does not make him a choker. He lost to the Jazz when the Nuggets collapsed in Karl's absence, and many feel as though he did all he could to put the Nuggets on his back in that series.

[Dave3]

Dave3 flees!
Going to sleep at 2 am? My apologies. Shouldn't have school at 8 am or anything. My life should be ISH:rolleyes:

Edit: Oh look, you're offline. You must be running from something!

[knickswin]

My premise is that Melo has been extremely unfortunate in his career. Playing in the Western Conference has put him up against championship contenders early in playoff contention. Melo has only been favored to win against 2 first round opponents. Beating only one of them does not make him a choker. He lost to the Jazz when the Nuggets collapsed in Karl's absence, and many feel as though he did all he could to put the Nuggets on his back in that series.

I think this is true and it gets overlooked. His 2-7 record in the playoffs in really not so bad if you look at it closely. Was he supposed to beat the 2004 Wolves as a rookie? Was he supposed to beat the 2005 Spurs as a second year player? The 2007 Spurs? The 2008 Lakers? The 2009 Lakers? He played very well in quite a few of those series. Then his teams were absolute wrecks in 2006, 2010, and 2011.

I mean, facts are facts, the guy does not have much to rest his laurels on yet. But it's not too late and I don't think these playoff losses are too much of a knock on him.

[L8kersfan222]

Going to sleep at 2 am? My apologies. Shouldn't have school at 8 am or anything. My life should be ISH:rolleyes:

Edit: Oh look, you're offline. You must be running from something!
Theatrics? :roll: Another fleeing tactic

[nathanjizzle]

LOL at pauk trying to justify lebrons .35 shooting on 17 made shots vs carmelos 13 at nearly .50. HAHAHHAHAHA. Like you keep on saying "Facts" :lol

[NuggetsFan]

My premise is that Melo has been extremely unfortunate in his career. Playing in the Western Conference has put him up against championship contenders early in playoff contention. Melo has only been favored to win against 2 first round opponents. Beating only one of them does not make him a choker. He lost to the Jazz when the Nuggets collapsed in Karl's absence, and many feel as though he did all he could to put the Nuggets on his back in that series.

I agree with this. He's had some performances that were pretty awful through out the playoffs tho. If it was LeBron? He'd be getting torn apart. For instance against the Jazz? Melo had himself a very good series(all tho stupid fouls were an issue but more the refs than him imo) however in the closing game he played brutal. Nobody ever mentions it either.

Against the Jazz facing elimination he had 20\12\5 in 46 minutes. However he shot like 6-22 from the field. Was the 3rd leading scorer(he's back up coming in and reaving havok, Joey Grahm.

It's just not fair arguing LeBron vs Melo in the playoffs. You could go find tons of games like that for Melo that nobody knows of. LeBron plays like that? There's like fifteen threads and it's on ESPN. LeBron drops like 36 for a series and loses? He quit. Melo drops 42 against the Celtics and that's all people remember. Don't remember that he failed to score more than 20 points twice in a 4 games series.

[nathanjizzle]

also even before looking at pauks stats its easily melo to take the last shot. if you dont agree your a delusional lebron dick rider.

[NuggetsFan]

also even before looking at pauks stats its easily melo to take the last shot. if you dont agree your a delusional lebron dick rider.

Yeah I can't see how somebody would argue LeBron there. Melo's arguably the best player in the league at taking the last shot. His offensive game makes him extremely efficient in those situations because he can get off whatever shot he wants. 'Bron lacks the shot that your usually forced into in those situations. Can't always drive to the hoop.

[Dave3]

Theatrics? :roll: Another fleeing tactic
Sleeping and waking up for school is theatrical to you? Sounds pretty boring lol.

But yeah, I'm too scared to debate basketball. That's why I joined a basketball forum. To not debate.

[L8kersfan222]

Sleeping and waking up for school is theatrical to you? Sounds pretty boring lol.

But yeah, I'm too scared to debate basketball. That's why I joined a basketball forum. To not debate.
When Pauk got banned you took LBJ's d1ck out ya azz and kept hush mouth;started backpedaling :lol .

[Dave3]

When Pauk got banned you took LBJ's d1ck out ya azz and kept hush mouth;started backpedaling :lol .
Exactly.

[Asukal]

Yeah I can't see how somebody would argue LeBron there. Melo's arguably the best player in the league at taking the last shot. His offensive game makes him extremely efficient in those situations because he can get off whatever shot he wants. 'Bron lacks the shot that your usually forced into in those situations. Can't always drive to the hoop.

We are only talking about clutch shots aren't we? Of course Lebron is a better player than Melo just not in the clutch. Also clutch is a vague term, it depends on what your defined criterias are so it can go both ways. :cheers:

[Jacks3]

lol @ this thread.

LeBron destroys Melo in the clutch, and everybody else outside of Kobe/Dirk.

82games defines clutch as the last 5 minutes of a 5-point game or closer, and all stats below are per 36 minutes and through January 6, 2011.



http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lebron-clutch.jpg
http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/anthony-clutch.jpg

Not even close.

Even bigger gap in the playoffs:
http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/lebron-clutch-playoffs.jpg
http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/anthony-clutch-playoffs.jpg

SMH.

[knicksman]

lol @ this thread.

LeBron destroys Melo in the clutch, and everybody else outside of Kobe/Dirk.

82games defines clutch as the last 5 minutes of a 5-point game or closer, and all stats below are per 36 minutes and through January 6, 2011.



http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lebron-clutch.jpg
http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/anthony-clutch.jpg

Not even close.

Even bigger gap in the playoffs:
http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/lebron-clutch-playoffs.jpg
http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/anthony-clutch-playoffs.jpg

SMH.

if you think lebron is clutch after the finals then I dont know what to say about your IQ

[knicksman]

the people who said lebron is better than melo are the same people who thinks lebron is better than pierce yet playoffs just proved otherwise.

[Jacks3]

If you think Melo is better than LeBron in the clutch even though he's sucked in the PS every year outside of 2009 and 2010...and his numbers are significantly worse...then you're just a biased moron. :oldlol:

[Sarcastic]

If you think Melo is better than LeBron in the clutch even though he's sucked in the PS every year outside of 2009 and 2010...and his numbers are significantly worse...then you're just a biased moron. :oldlol:

Lebron couldn't even with with DWYANE WADE AND CHRIS BOSH!!!!

Does he really need Steve Nash and Jamal Crawford too? Will that get him over the hump?

[knicksman]

A moron is one who failed to recognize that lebron would perform worse than melo if he played in the west. Due to lack of IQ, he is unable to recognize which conference is harder. They only knew that lebron went to the conference and thats all they care. Thats how simple minded they are. Just like they keep on saying lebron is better than dirk/pierce yet those 2 got rings while lebron didnt. Morons think that stats is all that matters coz they dont have enough IQ to think beyond what stats provide.

[Jacks3]

A moron is one who continues to ignore all the clear evidence pointing to LeBron being a significantly better clutch-time player and PS performer, and can't accept THE FACTS. A moron is one who uses the conference argument and ignores the facts that LeBron's numbers have been consistent in either. A moron is one who brings up "RINGz!" with with absolutely no regard for any sort of context. A moron brings up LeBron's post-season struggles and ignores the fact that Melo has STUNK in the post-season every year outside of 09 and 2010. A moron says Melo is more clutch and then can't accept that every single piece of evidence says LeBron destroys him.

Dumass!:roll: :roll: :roll:

[airchibundo507]

You could use another red bar. There ya go.

[knicksman]

yeah tell me how did lebron do against san antonio?melo 26.8 to lebron 22 on 30% shooting:lol. Seems like sophomore melo is as good as that lebron. A moron needed context why rings matter coz they dont have IQ to understand how important it is.

[Jacks3]

Tell me how Melo stunk it up in every single post-season he's been outside 2009 and 2010. A Melo fan criticizing LeBron for his post-seasons.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[knicksman]

well saying melo stunk it up is also saying lebron stunk it up coz lebron would be worse than melo if he played in the west. But of course you dont recognize that. You dont have enough IQ for this kind of analysis. Its really the same with pierce compared to lebron. Morons think lebron is better than pierce because of stats. But geniuses think that pierce is better than lebron coz he got rings. He got it while playing alongside weaker teammates. Just like dirk. And melo is being compared to pierce so melo really is better than lebron. While lebron is being compared to the great oscar robertson aka the man who won a ring as a ringchaser. But dont worry lebron will always be ranked higher than melo just like oscar robertson will always be an overrated player(the only top 10 without rings as the man). But thats because majority of the population are idiots. So all I can say is, if your opinion is what majority thinks then your thinking is the same as the idiots. :lol

[LBJ 23]

well saying melo stunk it up is also saying lebron stunk it up coz lebron would be worse than melo if he played in the west. But of course you dont recognize that. You dont have enough IQ for this kind of analysis. Its really the same with pierce compared to lebron. Morons think lebron is better than pierce because of stats. But geniuses think that pierce is better than lebron coz he got rings. He got it while playing alongside weaker teammates. Just like dirk. And melo is being compared to pierce so melo really is better than lebron. While lebron is being compared to the great oscar robertson aka the man who won a ring as a ringchaser. But dont worry lebron will always be ranked higher than melo just like oscar robertson will always be an overrated player(the only top 10 without rings as the man). But thats because majority of the population are idiots. So all I can say is, if your opinion is what majority thinks then your thinking is the same as the idiots. :lol



Wait what? You serious?

[Ikill]

Tell me how Melo stunk it up in every single post-season he's been outside 2009 and 2010. A Melo fan criticizing LeBron for his post-seasons.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Lebron against 50 win teams
2006
- 26/9/6 44% in 46 minutes
2007
-26/9/9 45% in 46 minutes
-22/7//7 36% in 36 minutes
2008
-27/6/8 36% in 43 minutes
2009
-39/8/8 49% in 44 minutes
2010
-27/9/7 45% in 42 minutes
2011
-28/8/4 47% in 45 minutes
-26/8/7 48% in 45 minutes
-18/7/7 48% in 44 minutes

Melo against 50 win teams( im not counting his first two years)
2007
27/9/2 48% in 42 minutes
2008
23/10/2 36% in 37 minutes
2009
30/7/3 49% in 39 minutes
28/5/5 41% in 39 minutes
2010
31/9/3 46% in 42 minutes
2011
26/10/5 38% in 39 minutes


Melos had 4 good series(2007,2009 vs Dallas,2009 vs LA, 2010) and 2 okay series (2008,2010)
Lebrons had 3 good series(2009,2011 vs Bulls and Celtics) 2 okay (2006,2007) and 4 horrible ones(2007,2008,2010,2011)

Lebrons had more chances because he's played in a weaker confrence had the better team most of the time, and has been healthier. And yes Lebron had the better teams in 07 and 08 how else could you explain Lebron playing like shit in the finals and the Cavs only losing by 1 and 3. He played like shit again in 08 and the Cavs took the Celtics to 7 games it doesn't add up. Also i don't care about Lebrons rebounds and assists he's playing 45 minutes a game.

[Simple Jack]

Lebron against 50 win teams
2006
- 26/9/6 44% in 46 minutes
2007
-26/9/9 45% in 46 minutes
-22/7//7 36% in 36 minutes
2008
-27/6/8 36% in 43 minutes
2009
-39/8/8 49% in 44 minutes
2010
-27/9/7 45% in 42 minutes
2011
-28/8/4 47% in 45 minutes
-26/8/7 48% in 45 minutes
-18/7/7 48% in 44 minutes

Melo against 50 win teams( im not counting his first two years)
2007
27/9/2 48% in 42 minutes
2008
23/10/2 36% in 37 minutes
2009
30/7/3 49% in 39 minutes
28/5/5 41% in 39 minutes
2010
31/9/3 46% in 42 minutes
2011
26/10/5 38% in 39 minutes


Melos had 4 good series(2007,2009 vs Dallas,2009 vs LA, 2010) and 2 okay series (2008,2010)
Lebrons had 3 good series(2009,2011 vs Bulls and Celtics) 2 okay (2006,2007) and 4 horrible ones(2007,2008,2010,2011)

Lebrons had more chances because he's played in a weaker confrence had the better team most of the time, and has been healthier. And yes Lebron had the better teams in 07 and 08 how else could you explain Lebron playing like shit in the finals and the Cavs only losing by 1 and 3. He played like shit again in 08 and the Cavs took the Celtics to 7 games it doesn't add up. Also i don't care about Lebrons rebounds and assists he's playing 45 minutes a game.

Let's also conveniently ignore the fact that Mello has had a better supporting cast than Bron nearly his whole career.

[pauk]

just stop this :facepalm

the only thing carmelo has over lebron in the clutch department is the higher accuracy of his gamewinners in the season only....

carmelo has proven to be clutch in the season therefore.... but i doubt his clutchness because of where it matters... playoffs...

---lebron has made more gamewinners (even more in playoffs)

---lebron has been always much more clutch productive in the 4th quarter, averages much more points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals during any minute in the 4th quarter... especially when the game is tied with 5 minutes less or so... www.82games.com for more info on that...

---lebron has been much more clutch productive where it matters to, in the playoffs, where he has been much more successful as a player and his team outcome...

---lebron is simply a better and more dominant player and takes over games and closes out games / series like Carmelo has never done at that magnitude...




i dont care if you backstab lebrons clutchness because of his games against the Mavs in Finals.... but meanwhile, please be sure to remember that Carmelo was SWEPT in the 1ST ROUND.... while Lebron was playing like a Clutch god on both ends of the floor in the Celtics (same team that just swept Carmelo) and especially Bulls series.... if you want to talk about Lebron choking then PLEASE dont even think about saying Carmelo is more clutch/doesnt choke, that does not make any sense.... that has been the same story for Carmelo for a very long time, he has been choking and not winning a playoff series in YEARS...

this is why Skip Bayless looks like a god damn moron with his: "Carmelo is better and Carmelo is more clutch, if he was in Lebrons seat in the Finals he would have won the championship" statements.......... how the **** do you know that when Carmelo has never even been close to be there... when he has not even been able to be CLUTCH in the 1st god damn round to taste even how Eastern Conference Finals feels like???

[Deuce Bigalow]

just stop this :facepalm

the only thing carmelo has over lebron in the clutch department is the higher accuracy of his gamewinners in the season only....

carmelo has proven to be clutch in the season therefore.... but i doubt his clutchness because of where it matters... playoffs...

---lebron has made more gamewinners (even more in playoffs)

---lebron has been always much more clutch productive in the 4th quarter, averages much more points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals during any minute in the 4th quarter... especially when the game is tied with 5 minutes less or so... www.82games.com for more info on that...

---lebron has been much more clutch productive where it matters to, in the playoffs, where he has been much more successful as a player and his team outcome...

---lebron is simply a better and more dominant player and takes over games and closes out games / series like Carmelo has never done at that magnitude...




i dont care if you backstab lebrons clutchness because of his games against the Mavs in Finals.... but meanwhile, please be sure to remember that Carmelo was SWEPT in the 1ST ROUND.... while Lebron was playing like a Clutch god on both ends of the floor in the Celtics (same team that just swept Carmelo) and especially Bulls series.... if you want to talk about Lebron choking then PLEASE dont even think about saying Carmelo is more clutch/doesnt choke, that does not make any sense.... that has been the same story for Carmelo for a very long time, he has been choking and not winning a playoff series in YEARS...

Pauk, what were Lebron's clutch stats in the 2011 Finals?

[$LakerGold]

i"d say Melo.

[asdf1990]

Pauk, what were Lebron's clutch stats in the 2011 Finals?

lets compare it with melos clutch stats in the finals.

[Miller for 3]

Melo is so overrated :facepalm

[pauk]

Pauk, what were Lebron's clutch stats in the 2011 Finals?

Deuce Bigalow, what were Carmelos clutch stats in the 1st round sweep?

hell.. what were Kobes clutch stats in the 2nd round sweep?

2 can play that game...

at least Lebron GOT to the Finals... and how did he get there? Watch the Celtics/Bulls series again... you will see... he did something there in the clutch which Carmelo has NEVER done and which Kobe didnt manage to do that playoff run...

Like i said... i dont mind if you bash Lebrons clutchness in 3-4 games against the Mavs... as long as you remember his clutchness that entire playoff run and remember Kobes/Carmelos clutchness aswell that same playoff run...

[pegasus]

95% says Melo, 5% says Lehhbruuhnn (due to speech impediment caused by Lebron's dick).

[Lebron23]

Melo is so overrated :facepalm

He's not even a top 10 player in the NBA.

[Lebron23]

well saying melo stunk it up is also saying lebron stunk it up coz lebron would be worse than melo if he played in the west. But of course you dont recognize that. You dont have enough IQ for this kind of analysis. Its really the same with pierce compared to lebron. Morons think lebron is better than pierce because of stats. But geniuses think that pierce is better than lebron coz he got rings. He got it while playing alongside weaker teammates. Just like dirk. And melo is being compared to pierce so melo really is better than lebron. While lebron is being compared to the great oscar robertson aka the man who won a ring as a ringchaser. But dont worry lebron will always be ranked higher than melo just like oscar robertson will always be an overrated player(the only top 10 without rings as the man). But thats because majority of the population are idiots. So all I can say is, if your opinion is what majority thinks then your thinking is the same as the idiots. :lol

Melo played in the East last year, but his team didn't even win a single game against the Celtics.

[pauk]

Melo played in the East last year, but his team didn't even win a single game against the Celtics.

:lol

inb4 another excuse for Melo's choking habbits...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Deuce Bigalow, what were Carmelos clutch stats in the 1st round sweep?

hell.. what were Kobes clutch stats in the 2nd round sweep?

2 can play that game...

at least Lebron GOT to the Finals... and how did he get there? Watch the Celtics/Bulls series again... you will see... he did something there in the clutch which Carmelo has NEVER done and which Kobe didnt manage to do that playoff run...

Like i said... i dont mind if you bash Lebrons clutchness in 3-4 games against the Mavs... as long as you remember his clutchness that entire playoff run and remember Kobes/Carmelos clutchness aswell that same playoff run...

0 points on 0-7 FG
just saying...

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lol

inb4 another excuse for Melo's choking habbits...

He didnt have Wade as a teammate, who was the best player vs the Cs putting up 30.2 ppg, 6.8 prg, 4.8 apg on 53%

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lol

inb4 another excuse for Melo's choking habbits...

how ironic a lebron fan is saying this :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

:lol

inb4 another excuse for Melo's choking habbits...

The gap between LeBron and Melo would be much wider once LeBron show his low post skills this season.

[pauk]

0 points on 0-7 FG
just saying...

Sixers/Celtics/Bulls series? Watched those?

or does no other series matter in the playoffs? only Finals?

i guess thats why you are OK with Kobe & Carmelo choking, getting swept early in the Playoffs huh?

i guess Kobe & Carmelo didnt give a damn about being clutch there either... because its not Finals... they go clutch only when Finals... but never get there... because they never were clutch enough to get there.... but.. they are still the most clutch.... http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/images/smilies/confused4.gif

GREAT LOGIC BRO!
http://sillyside.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/buddy_christ-3.jpg

[Deuce Bigalow]

Sixers/Celtics/Bulls series? Watched those?

or does no other series matter in the playoffs? only Finals?

i guess thats why you are OK with Kobe & Carmelo choking, getting swept early in the Playoffs huh?

i guess Kobe & Carmelo didnt give a damn about being clutch there either... because its not Finals...

GOTCHA!
http://sillyside.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/buddy_christ-3.jpg

he was good in the other 3 rounds, but to go 0-7 and score 0 points in the Finals in their prime is down right pathetic and I can never see Jordan/Kobe doing that

[pauk]

he was good in the other 3 rounds, but to go 0-7 and score 0 points in the Finals in their prime is down right pathetic and I can never see Jordan/Kobe doing that

Jordan... no... he chucked way to much (he never was "pass-ive") and was way to efficient / productive of a scorer... the most talanted-skilled player ever...

but Kobe? hahaaaaa.... what do you mean you cant imagine that from him when you have seen plenty of that and much worse? :oldlol: want to see some data on that?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Jordan... no... he chucked way to much (he never was "pass-ive") and was way to efficient / productive of a scorer... the most talanted-skilled player ever...

but Kobe? hahaaaaa.... what do you mean you cant imagine that from him when you have seen plenty of that and much worse? :oldlol: want to see some data on that?

0 points on 0-7 FG, If you can find that then shoot for it :oldlol:

[Dolestimanos]

Zeeman were close in some way.His laugh was more normal than his speech, almost a bray.Maybe he didn't practice his laugh for the courtroom.I knew he practiced that rich, rolling voice.Hopefully, I'll be calling you back.At least I'll know what to expect when I come down to the jail.Jason came out of the bathroom as I hung up.He was wearing the suit.I'd never seen him in anything except T-shirts and jeans or leather and less.It was odd to see him standing there in a navy blue suit, white shirt, and a thin white tie with a tastefully small design running through it.
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When you looked close, the tie was silk and the print was tiny fleur de lis.I knew who had picked out the tie.The suit was a better cut than most off the rack, but Jean-Claude had ruined me for off the rack no matter how nice the fit.He buttoned the first button on the jacket and smoothed his hands through his blond hair.I'd changed my clothes in the bedroom while he changed in the bathroom.
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But the pure, clear color actually looked pretty spiffy.I'd even been gracious enough to tell Judith I was wearing it.I think it was the first gift in ten years that I hadn't exchanged.I was still 0 for 8 in the gift department for her.Black dress pants with a belt wide enough for the Browning and wider than was fashionable, black flats, and I was ready.I'd added just a touch of makeup: eye shadow, mascara, a hint of blush, and lipstick.I tried not to think why I'd dressed up.It wasn't for the local cops.Jason and I were probably both overdressed for the locals.Of course, if we'd shown up in jeans and T-shirts, we'd have been underdressed.

[Dolestimanos]

In fact he stayed at my heels as I moved around the room like some obedient dog, but the message I was getting from him wasn't trust and adoration.It was suspicion and disapproval.Edward had settled into one of the room's three comfortable-looking powder blue chairs.He'd stretched himself full length, legs crossed at the ankles.He'd left his sunglasses on so he looked the picture of ease in the midst of that careful living room in that too silent house.He'd toned down his Ted act and was more his usual self.Maybe he didn't sweat Norton's reaction, or maybe he was tired of playacting.I knew I was tired of watching the show.The room was one of those great rooms which meant the living, dining, and kitchen were all one shared space.It was a large space, but I'm not really comfortable with the open floor plan.
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The door opened and a man came through with his tie at half-mast, the white sleeves of his dress shirt rolled up over dark forearms.His skin was a dark solid brown and it didn't look like a tan.Hispanic or Indian or maybe a little of both.The hair was cut very short, not for style, but as if it were easier that way.There was a gun on his hip and a gold shield clipped to the waist band of his pants.I'd seen too many cops go from cheerful to hardcore up in your face too many times.Ramirez would try to catch his flies with honey instead of vinegar, but I knew the vinegar was there.You didn't get to be a plainclothes detective without that streak of sourness.Or maybe a loss of innocence was a better phrase for it.Whatever you called it, it would be there.

[Dolestimanos]

This gave me the courage to do a little more.I leaned my face against Jean-Claude's, and nothing happened.Oh, the feel of his skin against mine sent a thrill through my body, but my shields never wavered.I felt some tension that I hadn't even known was there ease out of me.I wanted him to hold me.It wasn't just sex.If that was all it was, I could have been rid of him long ago.He must have felt it, too, because his hands rested lightly on my bare arms.When I didn't protest, his hands caressed my skin, and that small movement brought my breath to a sigh.I leaned into him, wrapping my arms around his waist, pressing the lines of our bodies together.
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I do not like that your gun is gone.It will be as much a surprise to me as to you.But it is not me that you do not trust.It is your power.Nothing ever goes as it should with you, _ma_petite_, because you are like no power come before you.You are wild magic, untamed.You throw the best of plans to the wind.Funny how quickly I could go from wanting to jump his bones to wanting to be rid of him.Of course, it wasn't exactly him, but more the complications that came with him.The mystical stuff between us was never simple.

[Dolestimanos]

Jason caught my eye, but neither of us dared even shrug.I don't think we were sure what was going on, but that it would end some place painful was almost certain.Musette swayed around Jean-Claude, to stand closer to Asher.Is that why you did not come home?She could insult me all she wanted.Insulting me was less painful than so many other things she could be doing.How she will always see me.To be parted from her, only that is true death.She was, indeed, a true believer.I couldn't see Damian's face, but I was betting it was as carefully blank as the rest.
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He is merely your second.The vamps were acting like a trap had been sprung, and I didn't see it yet.Musette laughed, and it wasn't anywhere near as good a laugh as Jean-Claude or Asher were capable of.It was just a laugh, a vaguely unpleasant one, at that.Now I really was puzzled.I hadn't said anything that funny, had I?Jean-Claude's quiet voice came into the silence that followed that laugh.They lie about that moisturizing lipstick.Your lips still dry out when you get scared.If Asher was your lover, or mine, or anyone's, then he'd be safe from her?

[Dolestimanos]

I was still fighting to keep a target on Musette's white-clad chest.Belle fought to keep her face calm, but the anger leaked through the room.Or maybe I was just more sensitive to it.If you choose Asher's death, that is one thing.To simply miss the chance to save him, another.Besides, Valentina's face would have been like all the old ones when they were hiding themselves, or risking themselves, blank, empty, a lovely mask.Something passed between them.Something I could not read.Belle took a deep, impatient breath, smoothed her skirts, and began to walk forward.It wasn't quite the graceful glide that Musette's body normally had.
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Richard was gone, too.I actually had to glance at him to make sure he was still in the room, that's how tight he was shielding.I wasn't sure when he went away behind his shields, which seemed strange.I should have noticed.He caught my look, and he couldn't keep the compassion, or the pain, off his face.I don't think it was pain for Asher.Jean-Claude's hands tensed and the movement brought my attention back to Belle.Her hair fell out around her like a black cloak, so that the gold dress showed only in hints through all that blackness.I felt Jean-Claude gather himself, like it was a physical effort to gather his will, then he sighed, and he shook himself like a bird settling its feathers.He stepped out from behind me and offered me his arm, very formally.

[Dolestimanos]

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There had to be.God, please let there be!The man touched my shoulder, and I jumped.The man did not.I walked down the steps to stand a few feet in front of Phillip.He wouldn't look at me.Nikolaos touched his naked thigh and ran her fingers up it.His body tightened, hands clenching into fists.Her voice was sweet as ever.The child bride incarnate.

[Miller for 3]

^^^

dis ni99a goin HAM :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Kevin_Gamble]

Who is more clutch based on _production_ in crunch time? Lebron well over Carmelo.

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

[Sampsonsimpson]

:lol

inb4 another excuse for Melo's choking habbits...

Hey now thats just not true. Im not necessarily a Lebron or Carmelo fan, I like both players and I would gladly take either one of them on my team in crunch time. But to say that Carmelo choked against the Celtics just because they were swept is ignorant. Both Amare Stoudemire AND Chauncey Billups were injured for the majority of that series and neither one played major minutes. Who else did the Knicks have that were reliable scoring options on offense? Landry Fields? Ronny Turiaf? Renaldo Balkman?

Lets not kid ourselves, that series was essentially Carmelo Anthony vs the Boston Celtics.

[chairman]

Carmelo easily