ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #17: Dennis Rodman vs Elvin Hayes.

[Kblaze8855]

If you are wondering how Rodman got past Arizin....

The combo of the derailing discussion on how GOAT no longer wanted ISH voting for...whatever reason....it not being a terribly interesting discussion with one of the players being largely unknown...and me simply finding it boring....plus no longer concerning myself with Goats process...

I just looked over the initial voting lists(Rodman and Pau lwere nearly tied), considered their rankings on past ISH lists(our top 100 from 07 had Rodman 48 and Palu lin the 60s), and a couple others(slam top 500 for example had rodman 48 Paul 71) and concluded rodman was likely the more highly regarded player.

Plus I have nothing to talk about basketball wise at the moment and im interested in the next several matchups(Pippen, dirk, Nique, Mchale, and baylor are up next...but not in that order).

So...


http://insidesfrealestate.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/1997_rodman_rebound.jpg


5 time NBA champion
2 time NBA all star
2 time defensive player of the year
2 time all nba team(3rd)
8 time all defense. 7 first team
Led NBA in field goal percentage in 1989
Led the NBA in rebounds 7 seasons in a row and was second the season before he started that run
Elected to NBA hall of fame in 2011
Holds NBA finals record for offensive rebounds




I was gonna recycle the quote since the last discussion never really started...but I found a fititng discussion by Elvin Hayes on Rodman which I find nice...


What else they were saying:



SLAM: Speaking of one-dimensional, what do you think about the hype surrounding Dennis Rodman’s rebounding?

HAYES: Dennis is a really sad case. His ability has been overshadowed by all the little disguises and off-the-court antics. He has been one of the greatest rebounders in a long time, one of the greatest to ever play the game, but he will never get the full attention or accolades of the basketball world.

SLAM: Okay, but you averaged 17 rebounds your rookie year - along with 28 points. How many boards do you think you or Wilt or Nate could have averaged if you did nothing but go for the glass on every shot?

HAYES: Still, thats a specialty, and you got to give it credit. There were always guys like that. Bailey Howell was one of the greatest rebounders I ever saw. Johnny Green was a specialty rebounder. Satch Sanders was just a defensive player with the Boston Celtics. KC Jones was one of the great players, and he was strictly defensive. Al Attles was like that. Guy Rodgers was strictly an assist guy for Wilt. You have some guys who are specialty guys, and Rodman is one of them. And he is one of the best at it and would have been in any era.

Why it matters? I think Hayes is one of many legends who have more respect for Rodman than ive seen from quite a few people who suggest he got a lot of rebounds just by caring about them more than anything. The people who had t ogo get them know its harder than just...wanting it.


Vs


http://www.answersfrommen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/elvin-hayes01.jpg

12 time all star
1978 NBA champion
6 time all NBA(3 first)
2 time all defensive second team
Top 5 in blocks in 5 seasons
Led the NBA in rebounds twice(he is the only player other than Rodman to get 18 a game after wilt retired)
Led the NBA in scoring once and top 3 in 3 seasons
8th leading scorer in NBA history
4th leading rebounderi n NBA history
Career 21/13/2 player with single season highs of 28 points, 18 rebounds, 3 blocks, and 2 steals



Hayes is at times listed as overrated...I saw him listed as like the 3rd most overrated player ever a while back. but the more I look into it a lot of it was likely coaching issues...which I will get into in a moment....

[Kblaze8855]

Im gonna post two things people were saying...one from Charley Rosen who is often dismissed but im sure he at least watched a lot of hayes:


Elvin Hayes
He could do three things — rebound, block shots, and shoot a high percentage on turnaround jumpers from the left box. He couldn't pass, handle, play honest defense, or hit a clutch shot to get into heaven. In addition, he paid no attention to the basketball alphabet of Xs and Os. All he cared about was "me-ball-basket."

And here is one from Tex Winter and Elvin discussing why he had such issues. Its an interesting read to me but was too long for the first post:



Hayes' rookie season with the San Diego Rockets was like an extension of his college career. He was the Western Division starting center in the NBA All-Star game, ahead of Chamberlain. He led the league in scoring, finished fourth in rebounding and carried the Rockets, a 15-67 expansion team the year before, into the playoffs. He had come out of his shell and was running around Hollywood and Las Vegas with movie stars and appearing on television shows. Everything was beautiful.

The next year things changed drastically. Some of his teammates, particularly Forward Don Kojis, Hayes believes, became jealous of his celebrity, his money and his special relationship with owner Bob Breitbard. Kojis demanded a trade and dissension grew. Coach Jack McMahon, now the assistant at Philadelphia, was caught in the middle. When the team's record was 9-17, McMahon was fired. Hayes was blamed. Into the breach came Hannum, a caustic drill-sergeant type, who had had successful NBA coaching stints in St. Louis, Philadelphia and San Francisco.

"His thing was 'I'm gonna break him'—like I'm a horse," Hayes says. "So every little thing I do, he jumps on me. He's going to make me an example. He would holler and curse at me all the time. It was 'Hayes this' and 'Hayes that.' Hayes! Hayes! Hayes!"

"He was spoiled," says Hannum, now in the construction business in California. "Because of his relationship with the owner, I had no authority with him. I guess the climate in pro sports was changing and I was not willing to change with it. Hayes was exactly the kind of player I did not want. He's a front-runner. Put him in a situation where there's tension and he does not face it with courage. Give him a challenge and he'll always find some excuse to fold. I still believe it. Even last year, the Bullets won despite him rather than because of him."

The following year the Rockets were 40-42 and missed the playoffs by one game. Hannum wanted Hayes gone, but Breitbard refused. When Hannum quit to join Denver in the ABA, it was widely assumed and reported that Hayes got him fired. "It was always, 'Hayes got the coach fired,' " says Hayes. "They used to say the same thing about Wilt. Well, Wilt used to say, 'Oh yeah? Well how many did I hire?' "

Hayes was miserable in his second and third seasons in San Diego. Newspapers regularly blasted him when the Rockets lost. It was then he made the mistake of engaging in a running battle with a San Diego Union reporter. "Every morning he would have written something else about me," Hayes says, "and every night I would be on radio or TV saying something about him. Every day, he and I. It got ridiculous. It was the ultimate sin. I should have known then I couldn't win. Now I do know, so I keep quiet.

"All of a sudden the thing that's been my only joy in my whole life—going to the gym, playing ball, exploding, setting myself free—had become an agony. I was totally unhappy, disgusted with it all. I was taking stomach pills, sleeping pills, I lived on Alka-Seltzer, Turns, Rolaids. I always had a pocketful of them. I used to wake up in the middle of the night and think I was dying. One day I read one of those stories about me and I said to myself, 'Wow, where does it all end? The best thing to do is kill myself.' I lived up in the hills of La Jolla and I'd be driving home late at night—I had this fast car—and the thought of just running it off the road was always with me."

It seemed as if Hayes' problems were over during the summer of 1971 when he learned that the Rockets were moving to his beloved Houston. But the relief was short-lived. His new coach was Tex Winter, an NBA rookie who had spent the previous 24 years coaching at Marquette, Kansas State and the University of Washington. "He was a very nice man," says Hayes, "but he treated the players like they were on scholarship."

"It was as much my fault as it was his," says Winter. "I really thought I could coach the same way as I did in college. That didn't work with Elvin." Winter's idea was to convert Hayes, one of the greatest scoring machines ever to play the game, into a passing center. And he would have Hayes pass off to such luminaries as Cliff Meely, Stu Lantz and Dick Gibbs.


"One of our first games that year was up in Waco, against Chicago," Hayes recalls. "I'm messing around with the ball in the high post and all my teammates are on the other side. Now the clock's running down and I have to shoot. But I'm not supposed to. Well, I must have had four or five shots in a row blocked. And I never have my shots blocked. Guards were blocking my shots."

Hayes' masquerade as a passer was never satisfactorily explained to the Houston fans, and even they got down on him for not shooting. Soon Hayes decided that the experiment was over, and one night he came out shooting and scored 37 points. Afterward Winter told him, "You're fighting me." The season was disastrous. The San Diego stories were retold, and Hayes wanted out. "Elvin carried quite a burden and I felt sorry for him," says Winter. "The Houston people bought the Rockets solely because of him. They thought he'd fill the Astrodome like he did one time in college. Instead we played some games there in front of 500 people. He was crushed. On top of that, I found him so lacking in fundamentals. It's true that I tried to mold him into my concept of what a post man should be, but I could not get any response from him and that caused all sorts of problems on the club. He knew he was more valuable than I was and there was just no way I could build a young club around him."

In 1972, Hayes got his trade to the Bullets, and 47 games into the following season Tex Winter was gone, too. Bullet Coach Gene Shue recognized that Hayes' strength lay in scoring and rebounding—and even better, Shue had the luxury of returning Hayes to his natural forward position, because Unseld was there to play the pivot. Shue also knew how to communicate with the modern superstar. "Nobody is going to blame you if we lose," he told Hayes. "Nobody is going to say anything if you miss a shot or commit a turnover. Just play ball, Elvin. Forget all that stuff you got in San Diego and Houston. All that is over."


And just like that....this here:


"Nobody is going to blame you if we lose," he told Hayes. "Nobody is going to say anything if you miss a shot or commit a turnover. Just play ball, Elvin. Forget all that stuff you got in San Diego and Houston. All that is over.


Just that quick...one of the most hated on players n the league is a contender for the next 5 years makes 3 finals doing digits lal along the way all nba first team 3 times and wins a ring.

I think hes one of the best examples of what a poor coaching matchup can do to ruin a career and a reputation.

By most accounts I find from non players he was pretty much a selfish jerk...but guysl ike Russell and Wilt seemed to like him. Russell had a lot of good to say. Elvin said Russell was his idol and he came in trying to play defense first like him...but he never really got put into the position to do so.

Elvin is the type who if he were drafted onto a traditionally great franchise who had its shit together and a great longterm coach who was ready for a player like him...we might be asking if hes top 10-15 all time.

[chips93]

i didnt watch either of these guys play and ive never seen a full game of hayes, so im not gonna vote. but ill still get in on the discussions

when the rockets drafted sampson, hayes saw sampson as a project, he planned to tutor sampson and to impart knowledge that he had gained over the years. but hayes was regarded as such a team cancer, that when the rockets coach at the time found out that hayes was getting close to sampson, he reportedly told sampson to ''stay away from that f**king prick''.

nice comparison between two guys who couldnt be more different.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I've seen quite a few games from when Hayes was on the Bullets and he did have a good turnaround, but he seemed to take some bad shots and probably shot too many jumpers leading him to be so inefficient for a big man. Best comparison I could make is Jermaine O'Neal, some differences, but I think they're pretty similar in terms of skill set and impact.

Anyway, I was aware of some of the negatives with Hayes, and Rodman can obviously be a distraction as well. Hayes won a title as a star, but one of several on the team. He was more suited to be the man on the team than Rodman, but I wouldn't want Hayes as the man on the team, while I'd absolutely want Rodman as a complementary player. Not an offensive threat, but he embraced rebounding, playing hard and playing defense on whoever you asked him to. That type of skill set won't take away from any player you put him with and he made a huge difference on 5 title teams and numerous contenders. The greatest rebounder ever, imo.

So I vote for Rodman.

[Droid101]

I've seen quite a few games from when Hayes was on the Bullets and he did have a good turnaround, but he seemed to take some bad shots and probably shot too many jumpers leading him to be so inefficient for a big man. Best comparison I could make is Jermaine O'Neal, some differences, but I think they're pretty similar in terms of skill set and impact.

Anyway, I was aware of some of the negatives with Hayes, and Rodman can obviously be a distraction as well. Hayes won a title as a star, but one of several on the team. He was more suited to be the man on the team than Rodman, but I wouldn't want Hayes as the man on the team, while I'd absolutely want Rodman as a complementary player. Not an offensive threat, but he embraced rebounding, playing hard and playing defense on whoever you asked him to. That type of skill set won't take away from any player you put him with and he made a huge difference on 5 title teams and numerous contenders. The greatest rebounder ever, imo.

So I vote for Rodman.
Ditto here, Rodman, for all the reasons I've given for the last two threads.

[Fatal9]

From footage I've watched of Hayes, his shot selection was really bad at times. Sometimes he'd have a wide open lane to the basket but for some reason, he'd rather take the turnaround fadeaway instead of going strong to the basket. I can see why he shot so poorly sometimes, has nothing to do with ability but the types of shots he was taking. He did have a very positive impact when he joined his teams though. Rockets went from winning 17 games to near .500 in his rookie year, though their records were generally mediocre in his time there. Bullets went from a .500 team to a team that won 50+ and even up to 60 one year (which you didn't really see a lot in the 70s due to the parity in the league).

In the playoffs Hayes always got hated on for not delivering in big games. Looking at his logs...he used to have some massive games. A lot more 30+/20+, 40+ pt games than people will assume by looking at his overall stats. He was a bit inconsistent game to game, and noticeably played worse in game 7s than other games in a series, but he often doesn't get credit for things he did throughout the series. In a series where I've read his game 7 performance get criticized, he had 46 pts in a pivotal game 5 (after McAdoo had 50 the game bfore) and averaged 32 in the other two wins before that game. If he scores only 20 in the game 7, he likely got ripped apart and not given the proper credit for what he did for rest of the series. Or like against the Knicks the year before that, he put up 31/23 to save team from elimination and send the series to 7 games, but a poor game 7 performance ended up getting him ripped even though he played well all series.

Hayes had his issues...big games, not liked by teammates, didn't really seem to play the way (offensively at least) like he should have, but Rodman has his own set of issues too so you can't hold Elvin's issues as much as you would in comparison with other guys. Hayes was a more complete player and solid on both ends and on the boards. A lot of Hayes' "issues" could have been taken care of if he played with guys and leaders like Isiah and MJ too (and simultaneously coached by Daly and Phil while playing with them). Also underrated about Hayes is his ridiculous longevity and durability. Gave you 16 years, 12 consecutive all-star years and missed only 9 (!) regular season games his entire career.

I'm voting for Elvin Hayes.

[Miller for 3]

I would go with Hayes. He takes a lot of flack from stat lovers for being inefficent, but imo he was like KG and Drob in that he was a No.2 forced to carry an offensive load. From what ive seen, his calling card was his defense and rebounding, but people want to knock him for missing turnarounds and being unclutch. He probably should have been the 78 FMVP, and led the Bullets to 3 Finals overall. People knock him for being unclutch, but in his 78 playoff run he put up 22/13/2/3 on 49% shooting while leading his team to a title. I love Rodman, but Hayes was a superior player

[raiderfan19]

Dirk pippen and baylor are all going to be too low if they are in the next five.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Hayes

Rodman was more valuable than a one-dimensional 20 ppg scorer and forh is unique style and contributions to the game deserves respect but now we're talking about a guy in Hayes around whom you could build a Contender. He couldn't defend like Rodman but the difference in scoring ability is too massive to ignore. Rodman's edge has an edge rebounding but Hayes was a great rebounder.

[Kblaze8855]

The only knocks on Elvin I feel are things we have to throw out when the other side is Rodman.

I love Dennis. One of my all time favorite. But Elvin is one of the top 10 scorers and an all time leading rebounder. Shot blocker too. He was a star for like 15 years. He was doing all star numbers alongside Bird and Magic and Wilt and Russell. And he gets flack for being hard to coach and like....but....its vs Dennis Rodman. Elvin(like Dennis) didnt seem to be hurting teams. Not looking at results. He went to a 15 win team and took it to the playoffs. And when he left not like they lit the world on fire. He went to the Bullets and made 3 finals and won a ring. Seems his teams did about what they should have. Its said they should have won in 75 but still....not like he didnt get it done.

Both are talented but hated on stars who were emotional, prone to fueds, and it seems...considered suicide in their primes. Similar in ways. But Hayes just has that next level to me. Rodman is one of the best players ever to me. Not role players. Best period. But Hayes is a leading scorer and rebounder...all D team guy....who made 3 finals as a superstar and won it all.

Just feels like another level of player to me. And we dont even have the "But it was 1952...." element. He was great vs the same bigmen Ewing, Hakeem, and so on came in playing.

I dont think he gets his due respect. And even if he was a dick...hes against Dennis Rodman. Character/disruption issues dont really help anyone in this.

[Fatal9]

...
why don't you start voting (just not in the OP)? could always use more votes.

[RobertdeMeijer]

This is hard for me because Hayes was a very good player with alot of negative kinks (gotta love that Sampson quote, thanks writing that down, Chips93)

And Rodman was a kinda-good player with alot of positive kinks.

I put Hayes higher because he seems to be in a higher tier: Players that lead their team somewhere.

Ultimately, Hayes still had some good kinks (rarely got injured, could block shots unlike Unseld, and Rodman had his fair share of bad kinks (injured alot, head-case at times)

so I vote for Elvin Hayes

[MasterDurant24]

Rodman was the more hard-working, team-oriented player, Hayes was the more talented and overall better player. Hayes was also arguably the best player on a playoff contender and champion in the Bullets. They went to the Finals 3 times. Like the poster above me said, Hayes was simply in a different tier from Rodman.

Elvin Hayes

[ShaqAttack3234]

I would go with Hayes. He takes a lot of flack from stat lovers for being inefficent

It's not even just stats, I'm not the only one who noticed it in his shot selection. There are some players who I'll watch and be surprised that their stats show them to be inefficient, but with Hayes, I see why he was inefficient.



Just feels like another level of player to me.

This made it tough for me, and still makes me unsure of my vote. Actually, prior to this project, I never thought too much about where Dennis would rank all time because players like him usually don't come up much in all time ranking discussions. Or at least players who were never top 10 players in the league.


And we dont even have the "But it was 1952...." element. He was great vs the same bigmen Ewing, Hakeem, and so on came in playing.

I agree that era isn't much of an issue, not because I agree with the whole "he played against this guy who played against this guy" point. But first year post-merger, he was a 24/13/3, 50 FG% player at 31, 20/13/2, 45% the following year, 22/12/2, 49% in '79 and then 23/11/2, 45% at '80.

Era really isn't much of an issue for me when discussing the late 70's/early 80's, particularly with big men. I've seen a lot of Kareem games, a good amount of Walton games from the year and a half he was healthy and they look as good as any big men to me. Most big men who were considered very good at that time, seem to have skills that would translate well.

[FF1]

Dirk pippen and baylor are all going to be too low if they are in the next five.

This. The initial voting on this is all messed up.

[HylianNightmare]

placeholder

[G-train]

Hayes.

To sum up most votes for him, he was a superstar player and scored, rebounded and blocked shots.
Rodman a good player that rebounded and defended, and passed well.

[Kblaze8855]

Dirk pippen and baylor are all going to be too low if they are in the next five.



This. The initial voting on this is all messed up.

Two things...

1.

You have to think about the level of player from here on out.

From here on its...guys who put up 36ppg and led weak teams to rings, and 12 time all NBA guys, and people who were all stars every season, won MVP, and dropped 50 points in game 7 to win a ring....and guys with 8 rings 6 of them as a superstar, or NBA and ABA MVPs who won rings in both made like 4 NBA finals and 6 or 7 total and on and on.

This is the 17th place vote and we have a guy who is top 8 all time in scoring top 4 in rebounds and would be like 8th in blocks if they counted his first 4 years....who was putting up 28/17....went to 3 finals...and won it all.

Thats voted on at 17.

Its tough justto break these guys up. Short of Mchale and Nique there isnt anyone left ive not seen ranked as a top 20 all time player...period. forget forwards. They are all elites from here on out. Just a matter of what you value most.

And 2...

About the list...

No better way I could see. It was just a way to get the names together. Opinions are too varied. One guys list as I was counting had rodman #12. Some had him out of the top 25 and not even an honorable mention.

Democracy doesnt always give the result an individual wants. But its fair.

Besides I barely care about the finals list now. Just something to discuss.

[L.Kizzle]

Elvin Hayes, will explain in detail later.

[raiderfan19]

It would have been simpler/better to start from the top and work your way down with more than one candidate. In addittion to the amazing things you listed, you are also going to have multiple guys who missed the playoffs multiple times in their primes, guys without rings and so forth.

[raiderfan19]

Part of this may just be us classifying certain players at different positions but i see no way you have more than 8 guys listed above those 3. Thats even if you include lebron(whom im assuming hasnt been ranked yet but havent checked) and its kind of ridiculous to rate him above elgin baylor at this point(let alone dirk)


Edit, i looked and im pretty sure i know who the other 11 are. You should move at least erving and gervin down

[Kblaze8855]

Simpler but not interesting. 5-6 people to vote on at once...none of them are actually getting discussed other thanthe biggest name at the moment. After the first 5 or 6 big names? Eh.

besides I didnt create the system. Just took over in the middle. People seemed to want it done this way. Or at least not mind it.

Far as people who missed the playoffs or dont have rings...im gonna have to file that under "So what".

Off the top of my head only 5 people from here on out didnt win a ring. One is still in his prime, 2 of them always were and will be ranked over plenty of people who did win rings(as they should), one made the finals like 8 times, and the other is Nique. And if Nique has the worst career in question?

Im not mad at that.

[1987_Lakers]

Elvin Hayes

Rodman simply isn't on his level. This is a Superstar vs an All-Star.

[Kblaze8855]

Gervin was on the guards list(for some reason...I always saw him as a 3). And Doctor J? Why would he move down?

What is there to say he didnt do?

Especially when you seem to want Baylor ranked highly. Baylor was by most accounts the prototype for Doctor J types(at least if we ignore Connie hawkins). But he wasnt just...better. He didnt actually accomplish anything Doc didnt. He made 7 or 8 finals in 60s. Doc made 4 in the late 70s and early 80s and won it all which Baylor never did. Doc was always winning. He made like 9 conference finals and unlike Baylor(at least early in his career) he didnt just have to win 2 games to do that.

I dont see any good reason to have baylor over Doc. He play better? No. Was he a more elite player in his time? No. Not really. Baylor was second in MVP voting once and third twice. Doc won and was second and third. neither was just....better...than the best bigmen in his league though. Did he accomplish anything Doc didnt? No. In 16 years in the NBA or ABA Doc was at least in the conference finals 10 or 11 times and in the finals 7.

His NBA career alone puts him over Baylor to me. His ability to play putsh im over Baylor to me. And his success should as well. He got it done. And even if it was with Moses...baylor didnt get it done given Wilt Chamberlain and Jerry West at the same time. Not calling the guy out or anything...I just dont see why hes better than Doctor J.


We calling Elgin better just for existing when more shots were taken which allowed him to have better numbers? Guy was shooting 25, 28, 33, and 29 shots a game in his top seasons. Doc only shot 19 times a game in 3 NBA seasons and he won the MVP in one of them and was second and third in the other two.

He was even an all star as many time in the NBA as Baylor despite playing his first 5 years in the ABA.

Doc gets really overlooked to me. People act like he ws just flashy and look at somewhat unimpressive numbers(compared to the Baylors and Birds at least). But he just wasnt the type to shoot a lot.

When I watch him hes always in the flow of the game. At least outside his finals games. He put up 30 a game his first finals(40 point game 7) and 25+ in the next 2 and in 83 he didnt score big but once he had the chance to lock up the title...Philly down in the final game in 83...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv6tZEz4hnA&feature=related

Down 3. he steals it and goes coast to coast. He comes down and gets a layup and 1 and makes the Ft. Then he hits the jumper over Magic to finish it off.

Doc could have scored a lot more than he did. Im not gonna discount him because he chose to let his teammates operrate when he had capable ones.

If he went and shot 33 times a night im quite sure he wouldnt have been scoring 21 ppg in his prime.

[Droid101]

Elvin Hayes

Rodman simply isn't on his level. This is a Superstar vs an All-Star.
Rodman was better at rebounding than any player was better at any other facet of the game than the next best guy.

Rodman is more valuable to any team.

I take Rodman easily in this one.

[WillC]

Short of Mchale and Nique there isnt anyone left ive not seen ranked as a top 20 all time player...period.

In 1996, in Sport magazine's 50th anniversary issue, Peter Vecsey ranked Kevin McHale as the 13th greatest player of all-time.

[raiderfan19]

Ill argue why he should be lower when he comes up. As for baylor, i dont care if hes alot higher, i just said he should be above bron as far as what lbj has already accomplished

Edit-as far as titles go, yes there are mitigating factors and i dont really hold that against barkley or malone. But not making the playoffs multiple times in their primes should absolutely be held against kg and chuck

[Gotterdammerung]

Elvin Hayes: 16 years, 12 quality, 12 All-Stars, top 5 in 75, 77, 79 & top 10 in 73, 74, & 76. Best player on 3 finalists. Peaked at 28-17 for 3 years, pulled 26-11 in '75 playoffs.

Pros: Very durable, good scorer & rebounder.

Cons: the 70s version of Karl Malone (a bit more athletic and elastic, but less skilled). A horrible choke artist (Bob Ryan of Boston Globe) who performed well throughout games, but disappeared in the clutch (133 points in the first 6 games of the 78 Finals, but only 19 in the 4th quarters). That turnaround jumper is a loser's shot for bigmen.
Cracked top 6 in MVP voting* only 3 times (5th in 74, 3rd in 75, 3rd in 79).

Elvin Hayes was on another level than Dennis Rodman, although he was a flawed superstar who probably wasn't easy to build around unless you had a big man who negated his flaws and a solid back court of clutch shooters.

Dennis Rodman is the greatest role player of all time -- as long you had better guys on your team than him.

* players voted MVP till 1980.

[Kblaze8855]

Ill argue why he should be lower when he comes up. As for baylor, i dont care if hes alot higher, i just said he should be above bron as far as what lbj has already accomplished

Edit-as far as titles go, yes there are mitigating factors and i dont really hold that against barkley or malone. But not making the playoffs multiple times in their primes should absolutely be held against kg and chuck

I understand that as a Dirk fan such things have been argued by you many many many times to the point that its kinda the old standby thing to use against his rivals(not really judging...my love of Pippen and Jordan no doubt makes me more prone to lean towards the more complete players when the issue comes up because thats been my reasoning for ranking them over their rivals so long...its hard to ignore it in other discussions).

But really...

When Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Moses, Hakeem, Baylor, Kobe and so on...guys many consider top 10 if not top 3...have all led 40 and under win teams while arguably the best player in the league or at least while in or near their primes...I dont think you will convince many to hold shit like that against Barkley and KG.

And I know you add the multiple times qualifier to wipe out some of those players but if they were in the situation that led them to be sub .500 many times they would have been it...many times. And just because a guy like Baylor makes the playoffs with 36 wins or Jordan makes it with 30(injured year....30 wins got them in) or 40 and some guys now miss it with 48...doesnt make it a greater accomplishment. Plenty of superstars led average and poor teams. Many did so several times. But they arent judged by that.

Players are never judged by their worst seasons. Never have. never will be.

07 with Ricky Davis wont matter any more to KGs legacy than Wilt on one of the worst teams in the NBA or Kareem missing the playoffs in the late 70s. Its nothing but trivia in the end. People know better than to judge them by it much if at all.

[D.J.]

Hayes


Just on another level. Top scorer, good rebounder, and good shot blocker. Granted his shot selection was rather questionable, he was a go to player on Finals teams.

[raiderfan19]

Im actually going to try to avoid the dirk portion of this discussion. Everyone that cares to know, knows my opinions and my reasons for those opinions(i will point out my issues with erving in respect to him later though)

[Kblaze8855]

Im actually going to try to avoid the dirk portion of this discussion. Everyone that cares to know, knows my opinions and my reasons for those opinions(i will point out my issues with erving in respect to him later though)


very well. Im just pointing out that I find it likely that your comments on KG and Barkley are related to your arguments with them vs Dirk which I think should help you see why most dont care about those things as much as you might. As I said...I do it too. I have no doubt that years of arguing MJ vs Nique(80s...in the south) and later Pippen vs him...and those pippen arguments coming down to "If all Nique does is score better while Pippen is a great scorer himself...and Pippen is better at the other 95% of what you do in a game...how is Pippen not better" have done a lot to shape how I judge players.

I feel it likely that your years of being anti KG/barkley/whoever is compared to dirk the most is making you judge some guys in ways the general public wouldnt.

I have no doubt the general public doesnt care much that Dirk, Nique, and others arent exactly....do everything guys. And I assure you...the general public doesnt care what the 1992 Suns or 2006 Timberwolves record was either.

[Fatal9]

Looks like Hayes won this easily...

[Smoke117]

Two things...

1.

You have to think about the level of player from here on out.

From here on its...guys who put up 36ppg and led weak teams to rings, and 12 time all NBA guys, and people who were all stars every season, won MVP, and dropped 50 points in game 7 to win a ring....and guys with 8 rings 6 of them as a superstar, or NBA and ABA MVPs who won rings in both made like 4 NBA finals and 6 or 7 total and on and on.

This is the 17th place vote and we have a guy who is top 8 all time in scoring top 4 in rebounds and would be like 8th in blocks if they counted his first 4 years....who was putting up 28/17....went to 3 finals...and won it all.

Thats voted on at 17.

Its tough justto break these guys up. Short of Mchale and Nique there isnt anyone left ive not seen ranked as a top 20 all time player...period. forget forwards. They are all elites from here on out. Just a matter of what you value most.

And 2...

About the list...

No better way I could see. It was just a way to get the names together. Opinions are too varied. One guys list as I was counting had rodman #12. Some had him out of the top 25 and not even an honorable mention.

Democracy doesnt always give the result an individual wants. But its fair.

Besides I barely care about the finals list now. Just something to discuss.

70% of the posters here are idiots so screw democracy. The guard list ended in a debacle and this list will end the same way. I can't even care about it.

[Gotterdammerung]

70% of the posters here are idiots so screw democracy. The guard list ended in a debacle and this list will end the same way. I can't even care about it.
It doesn't matter where. The results of a democratic vote is always by default a victory for mediocrity. Only the mediocre tries to justify it as "fair." :facepalm

[Kblaze8855]

So im mediocre and you are what? Exceptional?

I think this comes down to something I noticed once...

nobody ever looked at a list of the greatest ____ like this and felt it was correct. Its always wrong...unless they made it.

I mean...I look at your forwards list:

1. Duncan
2. Bird
3. Malone
4. Havlicek
5. Pettit
6. Pippen
7. James
8. Dr. J
9. Barkley
10. Barry
11. KG
12. Baylor
13. McHale
14. Hayes
15. Lucas
16. Wilkins
17. Rodman
18. King
19. Nowitzski
20. Pierce
21. Cunningham
22. Dantley
23. Kemp
24. Gus
25. Gasol


And find it laughable. As would many. If I showed it to most people...even most non idiots...they would have many problems. some would say Dirk is far too low. That your your 4th best player himself ranks your #12 way ahead of him. Many would ask what Nique actually accomplished...ever.

And all would be valid questions.

Comes right down to it...its impossible to make a list that virtually everyone seeing it doesnt totally disagree with. Once you stop trying and just see it for what it is...something to talk about....its less stressing.

Im annoyed people think Reggie Miller was better than Tmac and Dennis Johnson when people at the time wouldnt even make him all nba 3rd teamer. But guess what?

As much as id like to...I dont get to decide what other people think.

We just had a guy claim the list wrong because a guy you listed 19th might not make the top 11. who is right?

You? Because...you think it?

[1987_Lakers]

Looks like Hayes wins, who is next on the list?

[Kblaze8855]

i'll post it before I go to bed. cooking something now

[Gotterdammerung]

So im mediocre and you are what? Exceptional?
Think logically. :oldlol:

If the great majority of people are idiots and you think the collective judgment of idiots is fair, then you get what you deserve: a mediocre decision.

The old canard: In a democracy, people always get the government they deserve.


I think this comes down to something I noticed once...
nobody ever looked at a list of the greatest ____ like this and felt it was correct. Its always wrong...unless they made it.
I mean...I look at your forwards list:
And find it laughable. As would many. If I showed it to most people...even most non idiots...they would have many problems. some would say Dirk is far too low. That your your 4th best player himself ranks your #12 way ahead of him. Many would ask what Nique actually accomplished...ever.
And all would be valid questions.
Comes right down to it...its impossible to make a list that virtually everyone seeing it doesnt totally disagree with. Once you stop trying and just see it for what it is...something to talk about....its less stressing.
Im annoyed people think Reggie Miller was better than Tmac and Dennis Johnson when people at the time wouldnt even make him all nba 3rd teamer. But guess what?
As much as id like to...I dont get to decide what other people think.
I actually agree.

But then again, I don't have to agree with what others think. Particularly if they're homers in the first place incapable of looking past their favorite teams/players. :facepalm


We just had a guy claim the list wrong because a guy you listed 19th might not make the top 11. who is right?
You? Because...you think it?

Nah, I will argue my case. Just like in any other thread. Not because I just happen to think it. And if you think the reasoning is solid, you'll change your mind.

My list is open for revision -- I originally had Rodman ahead of Elvin Hayes until this thread.