ISH's #11 Player of Alltime [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Deuce Bigalow

11-02-2011, 08:00 PM

Vote for the #11 Player of Alltime
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#1: Michael Jordan (9/15 votes)
#2: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (17/32 votes)
#3: Bill Russell (15/35 votes)
#4: Magic Johnson (20/32 votes)
#5: Wilt Chamberlain (17/44 votes)
#6: Larry Bird (21/28 votes)
#7: Shaquille O'Neal (17/38 votes)
#8: Tim Duncan (23/56 votes)
#9: Hakeem Olajuwon (26/45 votes)
#10: Kobe Bryant (28/34 votes)

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ISH's #10 Player of Alltime - Kobe Bryant

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Kobe%2BBryant%2BLos%2BAngeles%2BLakers%2Bv%2BBosto n%2BCeltics%2B1rh14ao9m9wl.jpg
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Candidates:
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Moses Malone
Julius Erving
Karl Malone
Elgin Baylor
George Mikan
Charles Barkley
Bob Petitt
John Havlicek
Isiah Thomas
Kevin Garnett
Rick Barry
David Robinson
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwyane Wade
Lebron James

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Previous Thread http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238486

ShaqAttack3234

11-02-2011, 08:02 PM

It came down to West, Lebron and Barkley for me. Tough choice, but I'll go with West.

Odinn

11-02-2011, 08:02 PM

I vote for Moses Malone.

Fatal9

11-02-2011, 08:02 PM

KG is not even a candidate while Barkley, Malone, Havlicek, Thomas, Baylor are? What exactly have those guys done to separate themselves from KG? LeBron too.

asdf1990

11-02-2011, 08:02 PM

lebron james.

Rnbizzle

11-02-2011, 08:03 PM

Lebron James

Deuce Bigalow

11-02-2011, 08:04 PM

I updated the candidates list

iamgine

11-02-2011, 08:15 PM

Oscar

Miller for 3

11-02-2011, 08:17 PM

Dr. J

DMV2

11-02-2011, 08:20 PM

West

chazzy

11-02-2011, 08:22 PM

West

SpecialQue

11-02-2011, 08:22 PM

Hondo, and I HATE the Celtics.

millwad

11-02-2011, 08:27 PM

Moses Malone.

http://runwayboyz.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/moses-malone_2.jpg

Jacks3

11-02-2011, 08:28 PM

Jerry West.

Heavincent

11-02-2011, 08:33 PM

Dr. J.

rmt

11-02-2011, 08:35 PM

Moses Malone - reminded me of an unstoppable train

Asukal

11-02-2011, 08:47 PM

Why the fvck is Lebron in this discussion? He is not even halfway his career yet. :facepalm

I vote for Moses Malone. :cheers:

dynasty1978

11-02-2011, 08:49 PM

Why the fvck is Lebron in this discussion? He is not even halfway his career yet. :facepalm

I vote for Moses Malone. :cheers:

They're Bron apologists (minus ShaqAttack). What do you expect?

ShaqAttack3234

11-02-2011, 08:50 PM

Why the fvck is Lebron in this discussion? He is not even halfway his career yet. :facepalm

He's played 8 seasons. How many players were better than Lebron at his peak, or even now?

How many have better resumes than 2 MVPs, 2 finals appearances, 3 conference finals appearances, 5 all-nba first teams, 2 more all-nba second teams, two 60 win seasons, five 50+ win seasons.

He's definitely more than halfway done with the relevant portion of his career, and really, if players weren't as good as prime/peak Lebron and didn't really accomplish more even in a longer career(Oscar, Karl Malone ect.) then why should they be ranked above Lebron?

dynasty1978

11-02-2011, 08:52 PM

They're Bron apologists (minus ShaqAttack). What do you expect?

11. West
12. Oscar
13. Moses

dynasty1978

11-02-2011, 08:55 PM

He's played 8 seasons. How many players were better than Lebron at his peak, or even now?

How many have better resumes than 2 MVPs, 2 finals appearances, 3 conference finals appearances, 5 all-nba first teams, 2 more all-nba second teams, two 60 win seasons, five 50+ win seasons.

He's definitely more than halfway done with the relevant portion of his career, and really, if players weren't as good as prime/peak Lebron and didn't really accomplish more even in a longer career(Oscar, Karl Malone ect.) then why should they be ranked above Lebron?

With all due respect, with that reasoning, you would have to take a hard look at some of the other greats (e.g., West) and their Finals, Conference Finals appearances, etc., to put this comparison in context.

Let me check that and follow up.

Deuce Bigalow

11-02-2011, 08:56 PM

With all due respect, with that reasoning, you would have to take a hard look at some of the other greats (e.g., West) and their Finals, Conference Finals appearances, etc., to put this comparison in context.

Let me check that and follow up.

Jerry West been to 9 Finals
Dr J been to 4 Finals
John Havlicek won 8 championships

Asukal

11-02-2011, 09:09 PM

He's played 8 seasons. How many players were better than Lebron at his peak, or even now?

How many have better resumes than 2 MVPs, 2 finals appearances, 3 conference finals appearances, 5 all-nba first teams, 2 more all-nba second teams, two 60 win seasons, five 50+ win seasons.

He's definitely more than halfway done with the relevant portion of his career, and really, if players weren't as good as prime/peak Lebron and didn't really accomplish more even in a longer career(Oscar, Karl Malone ect.) then why should they be ranked above Lebron?

Let's not rank players who aren't even past their primes yet. Lebron will get to this list but not yet, who knows he might end up in top 5 or even number 1. Kobe is in the list because it is safe to say we have seen his best days, he might still get higher though. Lebron is like what? 26? Dude can still accomplish a lot more, lets wait till he gets there.

EnoughSaid

11-02-2011, 09:23 PM

I'll take Oscar Robertson. :bowdown:

jacobgoindum

11-02-2011, 09:36 PM

Jerry West

NBA Champion (1972)
9 NBA Finals appearances
38 ppg Finals series (1969)
40.6 ppg playoff run
42/13/12 in Game 7 of the 1969 Finals
Finals MVP (1969)
3rd alltime Playoff PPG - 29.1
#1 in Playoff Points and #1 in Laker points after he retired in 1974

KGMN

11-02-2011, 09:44 PM

Oscar Robertson

RRR3

11-02-2011, 09:47 PM

Oscar Robertson. Holy shit, he's underrated on ISH. :facepalm

JMT

11-02-2011, 09:51 PM

He's played 8 seasons. How many players were better than Lebron at his peak, or even now?

How many have better resumes than 2 MVPs, 2 finals appearances, 3 conference finals appearances, 5 all-nba first teams, 2 more all-nba second teams, two 60 win seasons, five 50+ win seasons.

He's definitely more than halfway done with the relevant portion of his career, and really, if players weren't as good as prime/peak Lebron and didn't really accomplish more even in a longer career(Oscar, Karl Malone ect.) then why should they be ranked above Lebron?

Holy smokes. I honestly thought the votes for LeBron were sarcastic jokes.

Oscar Robertson

SpecialQue

11-02-2011, 09:54 PM

RRR3

11-02-2011, 09:55 PM

I'm taking back my vote for Hondo and placing it for West now. West at #11, Hondo at #12.
Hondo over Big O. :facepalm :facepalm

DirtySanchez

11-02-2011, 10:09 PM

Oscar

LMAO Kobe at 10. The hate runs deep on these boards.

inclinerator

11-02-2011, 10:15 PM

west

Dbrog

11-02-2011, 10:16 PM

Oscar

LMAO Kobe at 10. The hate runs deep on these boards.

Kobe never had a playoff run as dominant as the guys above him. For that matter, he hasn't been as dominant as a few of the players who aren't even ranked yet.

Oscar is my pick this round. He literally did everything and carried some crappy teams in his day. I must say though...I can't fault anyone for choosing West. It's awfully close for me.

Side Note: Very strange to see Wilt separating Magic and Bird. Just doesn't make sense since Magic/Bird were basically completely equal in terms of greatness. Wilt should either be above both or below both.

d.bball.guy

11-02-2011, 10:17 PM

Finally, I saw LeBricks name.

LeBron James

colts19

11-02-2011, 10:18 PM

Big O

hammer2010

11-02-2011, 10:20 PM

Oscar

Fatal9

11-02-2011, 10:22 PM

Between KG, LeBron and West for me.

I'll go with KG.

Collie

11-02-2011, 10:27 PM

Moses Malone.

Jacks3

11-02-2011, 10:43 PM

Kobe never had a playoff run as dominant as the guys above him. For that matter, he hasn't been as dominant as a few of the players who aren't even ranked yet.

.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Jacks3

11-02-2011, 10:43 PM

Oscar

LMAO Kobe at 10. The hate runs deep on these boards.
+1

Deuce Bigalow

11-02-2011, 11:11 PM

Kobe never had a playoff run as dominant as the guys above him. For that matter, he hasn't been as dominant as a few of the players who aren't even ranked yet.

Oscar is my pick this round. He literally did everything and carried some crappy teams in his day. I must say though...I can't fault anyone for choosing West. It's awfully close for me.

Side Note: Very strange to see Wilt separating Magic and Bird. Just doesn't make sense since Magic/Bird were basically completely equal in terms of greatness. Wilt should either be above both or below both.

2001 Playoffs
29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg
33.3 ppg, 7 rpg, 7 apg in WCF
35 ppg, 9 rpg, 4.3 apg in WCSF

2008 Playoffs
30.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.6 apg

2009 Playoffs
30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg
32.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 7.4 apg in Finals
34 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.8 apg in WCF
1 of 5 players in NBA history to average 30+ppg in a title run
2nd player in NBA history to average 32 ppg and 7 apg in a finals series

2010 Playoffs
29.2 ppg, 6 rpg, 5.5 apg
33.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 8.3 apg in WCF

3rd most playoff points alltime - 5,280
2nd most 30 point playoff games - 81

5 Championships
2 Finals MVPs
MVP
13 allstar teams
13 all nba teams
11 all defensive teams

Do I even need to mention his regular season dominance?

now tell me who is more dominant that that outside the top 10?

Heavincent

11-02-2011, 11:22 PM

Kobe never had a playoff run as dominant as the guys above him. For that matter, he hasn't been as dominant as a few of the players who aren't even ranked yet.

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

MasterDurant24

11-02-2011, 11:39 PM

West.

Dbrog

11-02-2011, 11:41 PM

snip

Do I even need to mention his regular season dominance?

now tell me who is more dominant that that outside the top 10?

It's not dominant when:

In 2001, you're playing with disputably the most dominant force the game has ever seen.

In 2008, you get destroyed by the Celtics and shoot under 40% most games.

In 2010, you shoot awful for most of the playoffs (against the teams that actually play D) and get carried by your teammates.

The only year that you listed that I'd actually say Kobe was pretty dominant was 2009. However, it might have been a different story in the Finals if the Magic would've actually given the ball to Dwight.

Bottom line, I've definitely seen KG, Barkley, Wade, and Moses be more dominant in games than Kobe. Debatably Dirk, Rick Barry, West, Hondo, Dr. J, and David Robinson have been more dominant at points in time. Not saying any of these players are "more complete" or flat out "better" than Kobe, I'm just saying they have instances where they could be seen as more dominant (affecting the court more than Kobe).

Just FYI, Kobe @ 10 is exactly where I have him on my list and I wouldn't hate on people who have him as high as 7. However, Kobe's biggest problem is he just hasn't had those huge defining moments in the post-season (but his 81 is just :bowdown: ).

Bernie Nips

11-02-2011, 11:44 PM

Oscar.

Jacks3

11-02-2011, 11:47 PM

So much fail.

So he wasn't dominant in 2001 when he did 29/7/6/2/56% TS because he had...Shaq?

He wasn't dominant in 2008 when he put up 30/6/6/2/58% TS?

He wasn't dominant in 2010 when he did 29/6/6/2/57% TS? Really? His teammates carried him when he was by far the best player in the PS? Huh?

Criticizing him for those type of runs then bringing up guys like D.Rob,KG, Barry etc who have plenty of poor shooting post-seasons/series?

EPIC FAIL.

Dbrog

11-02-2011, 11:51 PM

No point in arguing with you. Biggest Kobe ******ger on this board...well...maybe Pauk.

Inception28

11-02-2011, 11:53 PM

Dr. Julius Erving.

L8kersfan222

11-02-2011, 11:53 PM

west

Collie

11-02-2011, 11:55 PM

After thinking about it, I'm changing my vote from Moses to Jerry West.

AngelEyes

11-02-2011, 11:56 PM

MOSES MALONE

Jacks3

11-02-2011, 11:59 PM

No point in arguing with you.

Haha. Another moronic Kobe hater. Your post had so many holes/faulty reasoning, and double-standards its laughable.

lol @ this:

29/6/6/2/57% TS over 23 playoff games
33/6/5/2/60% TS in WCSF
34/9/7/2/61% TS in WCF
29/8/5/2/53% TS in Finals

or this:
30/6/6/2/58% TS over 22 playoff games
34/6/5/2/60% TS in first round
33/7/7/60% TS in WCSF
30/6/5/2/61% TS in WCF

or this:
29/7/6/2/1/56% TS over 16 playoff games
35/9/5/2/60% TS in WCSF
33/8/7/2/58% TS in WCF

As not being dominant.

And then you list a bunch of guys who never had playoffs runs that good, and who had their fair share of playoff shooting woes.

What a phagett. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Dbrog

11-03-2011, 12:12 AM

Real talk about Kobe. He's never led a crappy team much of anywhere. We really gonna act like the Lakers weren't/aren't stacked? More than any team in the league from 2007-2010? Everyone expected them or the Celtics to win the Titles those years. What happened? Both teams won titles and were in the finals together 2/3 times (woulda been 3/3 if it wasn't for the Cinderella story Magic). Not shocking, no domination happening except team domination. Not like Kobe beat Boston shooting about 42% in 2008 (in a 40 pt gm7 loss) and 41% in 2010 (on a 4 pt win).

I'm not saying Kobe's not clutch, I'm not saying he's not one of the best scorers ever to lace em up, I'm not saying he's not one of the best players of all time. I'm saying, it's inaccurate to say he showed as much dominance on the court as some of these other guys.

BTW Jacks: Obvious you're trolling. Not gonna fall for it. Not even gonna respond to you anymore. I'm just putting this info out there for the posters who can't understand why people would keep Kobe outa their top 5 (or something). BTW, again, I have him at 10 and wouldn't hate on ppl who have him as high as 7th.

Jacks3

11-03-2011, 12:33 AM

BTW Jacks: Obvious you're trolling. Not gonna fall for it. Not even gonna respond to you anymore. I'm just putting this info out there for the posters who can't understand why people would keep Kobe outa their top 5 (or something). BTW, again, I have him at 10 and wouldn't hate on ppl who have him as high as 7th.
How am I trolling? By pointing out how flawed your "arguments'' have been?

You say Kobe has never taken a "crappy" team anywhere, yet ignore that none of the guys you listed have either. Most of the guys in the top 10 have had stacked teams when they won as well.

You say his 07-2010 have been "stacked", yet ignore the fact that 99% of the guys in the top 15-20 have won their rings on stacked teams.

You say he wasn't dominant in 08/2010/2001 with some incredibly silly reasoning, then list guys who never had playoff runs that great AND who have their fair share of post-season woes.

You say the 08-10 Lakers were stacked than in the league, which is false. In 2008 Boston/Utah both had more talent. In 2009, it was Denver/Orl and arguably Utah. In 2010, Boston had more. You ignore that Kobe put up 30/6/6/2/57/TS% over that stretch, and then act like he had some amazing talent when

A. Bynum didn't even play in 08 and the Lakers still made the Finals.
B. He sucked balls in the 2009 and 2010 PS. Put up 6 pts/5 rbs
C. His 2nd option was a guy who wasn't even regarded as top 5 at his own position, had 0 All-NBA teams, 1 All-Star Team in 8 season, 0 MVP votes, swept in the PS three straight years before joining Bryant.
D. Their bench was garbage.

You harp on his shooting %'s, but ignore the fact that he was by far the best player in the Boston series,and put up 29/8/5/53% TS/26 PER. Do you think Dirk wasn't dominate this year because he shot 42%? Jordan in 96--41%? Jordan in 98--43%?

You gonna bring up shooting %'s then act like D.Rob/Barry/etc didn't have their fair share of struggles? Especially D-Rob?

SO MUCH FAIL. In your posts. It's amazing.

What a phagett!

Jacks3

11-03-2011, 12:37 AM

I'm not saying Kobe's not clutch, I'm not saying he's not one of the best scorers ever to lace em up, I'm not saying he's not one of the best players of all time. I'm saying, it's inaccurate to say he showed as much dominance on the court as some of these other guys.

Please list these other guys. LMAO @ you bringing up guys like KG, Barkley, Wade, and Moses, Dirk, Barry when all those guys had stretches where you can subject them to same type of silly criticism.

What an idiot.

lol @ this:

29/6/6/2/57% TS over 23 playoff games
33/6/5/2/60% TS in WCSF
34/9/7/2/61% TS in WCF
29/8/5/2/53% TS in Finals

or this:
30/6/6/2/58% TS over 22 playoff games
34/6/5/2/60% TS in first round
33/7/7/60% TS in WCSF
30/6/5/2/61% TS in WCF

or this:
29/7/6/2/1/56% TS over 16 playoff games
35/9/5/2/60% TS in WCSF
33/8/7/2/58% TS in WCF

As not being dominant.

And then you list a bunch of guys who never had playoffs runs that good, and who had their fair share of playoff shooting woes.

Moron. :roll:

Dave3

11-03-2011, 12:46 AM

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif
What's so funny about the first part?

Duncan's best run was 25/15/5 on 53/--/69 (58% TS%)
Hakeem's best was 33/10/5 on 53/--/68 (56%) or 29/11/4 on 52/--/80 (57% TS%)

Kobe's best was 30/6/5 on 46/35/88 (56% TS%)

They both played much better defense than Kobe and anchored the defense of their team. I only bothered looking them up because they're the closest to him in ranking. The top 6 are pretty untouchable, and Shaq for sure had more dominant runs.

And you can even make a case for Moses Malone who hasn't been ranked yet, with his 26/16/2 on 54/--/72 (59% TS%) or Jerry West and LeBron (even though they didn't win it's very arguable they were more dominant) with 41/6/5 and 35/9/7 on 50/40/73 (62% TS%).

Am I saying they were definitely better? No.
Am I saying it's very arguable? Definitely. So how is it funny?

L8kersfan222

11-03-2011, 12:50 AM

Dbrog and Dave3 getting owned as usually-

Jacks3

11-03-2011, 12:54 AM

Dave3

11-03-2011, 01:00 AM

And yet none of those guys have a three-year run as sick as this:

30 PPG/6 RPG/6 RPG/2 SPG/57% TS

Series of:
34/6/5/2/60%--208 first round
33/7/7/60% TS--2008 WCSF
30/6/5/2/61% TS--2008 WCF
34/6/6/2/59% TS--2009 WCF
32/7/6/2/54% TS/29 PER--2009 NBA Finals
33/6/5/2/60% TS--2010 WCSF
34/9/7/2/61% TS-2010 WCF
29/8/5/2/53% TS--2010 Finals

58 30+ point games
7 40+ point games

3 Finals
2 NBA Championships
2 Finals MVP's

phuckking ******ts.
Don't know who you're replying to, but if it's to me I was replying to a guy laughing at the post explicitly saying playoff "run" in singular. That's why I only mentioned one. Do any of the guys I mentioned have 3 years in a row as dominant as those? Hakeem I would say yes, Duncan it's close/arguable if you're only counting 3 in a row, and with West/LeBron no. I was replying to "run" though, not "runs"

EnoughSaid

11-03-2011, 01:00 AM

This thread is about the 11th All-Time player. Stop talking about Kobe.

Dbrog

11-03-2011, 01:06 AM

This thread is about the 11th All-Time player. Stop talking about Kobe.

:oldlol: Such is this board. :cheers:

Jacks3

11-03-2011, 01:27 AM

Don't know who you're replying to,
To that phagett Dbrong. What a bitch.

Dave3

11-03-2011, 01:35 AM

To that phagett Dbrong. What a bitch.
Who's he referring to when he's saying "some of these other guys"?

Jacks3

11-03-2011, 01:39 AM

KG/D.Rob/Wade/Moses/etc.

It's comical how easily the criticisms he directs at Kobe can also be applied for these other guys and even some players in the top 10 as well, but his dumass can't see that.

LMAO @ the double-standards. Kobe haters. Whatta bunch of retards.

T-Time3

11-03-2011, 01:39 AM

Dr.J, Big O, Chuck
man it's hard..
i'll vote for Dr. J

Dave3

11-03-2011, 01:44 AM

Dbrog and Dave3 getting owned as usually-
Out of curiousity, how can someone be owned if they haven't been replied to yet? Your post was the first one after mine...:confusedshrug:

Something tells me your answer is going to be some kind of deflection....

Dbrog

11-03-2011, 01:44 AM

Who's he referring to when he's saying "some of these other guys"?

Not sure if you're referring to me, but basically I said I've definitely seen KG, Barkley, Wade, and Moses be more dominant in games than Kobe.

Then I went on to say debatably Dirk, Rick Barry, West, Hondo, Dr. J, and David Robinson have been more dominant at points in time. Actually I could add more players to that list like the Iversons and T-Macs of the world and other dudes such as Walton. My point is there are a lot less absolutes when ranking something like peak dominance.

BTW, never said I would rank ANY of these guys over Kobe. I simply stated you could probably make a case for them in terms of peak dominance. Unfortunately, most posters on this board are illiterate or have 0.5 second attention spans :lol

Jacks3

11-03-2011, 01:48 AM

I've also seen Kobe be far more dominant than all those guys. Plenty of times.

What's your point? What kind of stupid argument is that? I'm pretty sure any top 20 player ever is going to be more dominant "at times" than even guys in the top 5-10.

None of those guys have a argument over him, you idiot.

LMAO @ Walton/T-Mac/Iverson etc.

Retard.

Dave3

11-03-2011, 01:50 AM

Not sure if you're referring to me, but basically I said I've definitely seen KG, Barkley, Wade, and Moses be more dominant in games than Kobe.

Then I went on to say debatably Dirk, Rick Barry, West, Hondo, Dr. J, and David Robinson have been more dominant at points in time. Actually I could add more players to that list like the Iversons and T-Macs of the world and other dudes such as Walton. My point is there are a lot less absolutes when ranking something like peak dominance.

BTW, never said I would rank ANY of these guys over Kobe. I simply stated you could probably make a case for them in terms of peak dominance. Unfortunately, most posters on this board are illiterate or have 0.5 second attention spans :lol
Oh, I was confused because he you were mentioning playoff runs like 8 years apart. If it's peak, Wade and Barkely are the only ones with arguments really. KG, Iverson, Dirk etc. don't really have arguments and someone like Tmac is pure speculation because his 2003 season (though in a much better defensive year) wasn't as good as Kobe's 2006. Peak season alone isn't dominance though. Dominance is peak play + playoff play + longevity. That combination Kobe wins pretty decidedly over any of the guys you named.

Jacks3

11-03-2011, 01:54 AM

05-10 in particular is the "Kobe Era".

Over that span he was the best player in the league 3X and 2nd best 2X.

He won:
2 Championships
3 Finals Appearances
2X Scoring titles
2X Finals MVP
1X NBA MVP
5 All-NBA 1st Teams
5 All-NBA 1st Team Defense
Recorded seasons of:
35/5/5/2/56% TS
32/6/5/2/58% TS
28/6/5/2/58% TS
27/5/5/2/56% TS
27/6/5/2/55% TS
And post-seasons of:
29/6/6/59% TS
33/6/5/2/56% TS
30/6/6/2/58% TS (22 games)
30/6/6/2/57% TS (22 games)
29/6/6/2/57% TS (23 games)

He had 3 different months where he averaged 40+ PPG.
4 straight 45+ point games
4 straight 50+ point games
Averaged 37/6/6/58% TS over the last 30 games of 2007 Post-All Star break.
81 points
62 points in three quarters
20 50+ point games over this span (nobody else had more than 5)
70 40+ point games over this span (nobody came remotely close to that)
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter 3X
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season (only Wilt had more)
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

Now add that to what he did from 00-05:

3 Championships
4 Finals Appearances
3X All-NBA 1st Team
2X All-NBA 2nd Team
5X All-NBA 1st-Team Defense
Recorded seasons of:
23/6/5/2/55% TS
29/6/5/2/55% TS
26/6/6/2/56% TS
30/7/6/2/55% TS
24/6/5/2/56% TS
28/6/6/2/56% TS
Recorded post-seasons of:
22/6/5/2/54% TS
29/7/6/2/56% TS
27/6/5/2/52% TS
32/6/5/2/52% TS
25/5/5/2/51% TS

Had a stretch where he scored of nine consecutive 40+ point games.
13 straight 35+ point games
Averaged 40+ PPG for entire month
Won three straight Championships and made another Finals in a five year span.
Widely regarded as one of the 2-3 best perimeter defenders in the league.

Barkley?D.Rob?KG?T-Wack?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Dbrog

11-03-2011, 02:07 AM

omg haha...if we can just get roundmound in here we can probably get the world record for "most needless stats in one thread." :applause:

King24

11-03-2011, 02:13 AM

West for #11.

Inception28

11-03-2011, 02:22 AM

Jacks3 really needs to be banned. He derails every thread with Kobe and it is irritating.

Dave3

11-03-2011, 02:26 AM

West for #11.
Why did you edit the post? The picture was hilarious.

Deuce Bigalow

11-03-2011, 02:30 AM

20 - Jerry West
19 - Oscar Robertson
5 - Moses Malone
5 - Lebron James
4 - Julius Erving
1 - Kevin Garnett

Total - 54 votes

Deuce Bigalow

11-03-2011, 02:35 AM

It's not dominant when:

In 2001, you're playing with disputably the most dominant force the game has ever seen.

In 2008, you get destroyed by the Celtics and shoot under 40% most games.

In 2010, you shoot awful for most of the playoffs (against the teams that actually play D) and get carried by your teammates.

The only year that you listed that I'd actually say Kobe was pretty dominant was 2009. However, it might have been a different story in the Finals if the Magic would've actually given the ball to Dwight.

Bottom line, I've definitely seen KG, Barkley, Wade, and Moses be more dominant in games than Kobe. Debatably Dirk, Rick Barry, West, Hondo, Dr. J, and David Robinson have been more dominant at points in time. Not saying any of these players are "more complete" or flat out "better" than Kobe, I'm just saying they have instances where they could be seen as more dominant (affecting the court more than Kobe).

1st part, your trolling, carried by teammates lol ok...

"KG, Barkley, Wade, and Moses be more dominant in games than Kobe. Debatably Dirk, Rick Barry, West, Hondo, Dr. J, and David Robinson have been more dominant at points in time."

Tell me a playoff run where one of them were more dominant than Kobe

Inception28

11-03-2011, 02:36 AM

Add Patrick Ewing and Scottie Pippen to the candidates for the next one.

Maneva

11-03-2011, 02:37 AM

The Logo.

Deuce Bigalow

11-03-2011, 02:38 AM

Add Patrick Ewing and Scottie Pippen to the candidates for the next one.

Alright

Dbrog

11-03-2011, 03:23 AM

1st part, your trolling, carried by teammates lol ok...

"KG, Barkley, Wade, and Moses be more dominant in games than Kobe. Debatably Dirk, Rick Barry, West, Hondo, Dr. J, and David Robinson have been more dominant at points in time."

Tell me a playoff run where one of them were more dominant than Kobe

Now you are derailing your own thread with Kobe stuff :oldlol: :banghead:

Anyway, Wade's run in '06 was more dominant. KG = take your pick, 2004 playoffs or 2008. Either were more dominant. Chuck = probably a few more, but without a doubt 1993 playoffs. Beasted vs Jordan. Moses, 1983 was a BOSS. Swept Magic/Kareem Lakers as the best man on his team! '81 He was a stud too. Don't really know how anyone can deny these.

Jacks3

11-03-2011, 03:34 AM

[QUOTE=Dbrog]

Anyway, Wade's run in '06 was more dominant.
:roll: :roll:

KG = take your pick, 2004 playoffs or 2008.
:roll: :roll:

Chuck = probably a few more, but without a doubt 1993 playoffs.
:roll: :roll:

Don't really know how anyone can deny these.
Holy crap. You're a ****ing clown.:roll: :roll: :roll:

pauk

11-03-2011, 03:37 AM

Inception28

11-03-2011, 03:40 AM

OSCAR ROBERTSON.... you can argue placing him at even Top 5 for gods sake.....

just place him at #11 now and THEN we can start discussing #12.... its only there it gets really tough....

oscar has been underrated more than enough man...
Too bad West is winning and more than likely will win.

Since Dr. J has no chance of winning even though IMO he should be the #11, change my vote to Jerry West, Deuce.

Jacks3

11-03-2011, 03:41 AM

MichaelCheazley

11-03-2011, 03:57 AM

Big O. And Jacks
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lnYNFOzjSOs/Ta0vSRbRavI/AAAAAAAAFmE/6rQd6L6lYu0/s400/Know-your-role-and-SHUT-YOUR-MOUTH.jpg

Seriously, why are you arguing that here. Thats irrelevant to the topic now that hes gone.

triangleoffense

11-03-2011, 04:16 AM

Dr. J is my vote although West, Moses, Oscar and Hondo were close 2nds (relative to the 11th best player)

btw this top10 list is the reason why you should never take any arbitrary list of topwhatever lists seriously. In reality there is no definitive 1st or 2nd or 3rd there is just being mentioned in the air as the all time greats.

OmniStrife

11-03-2011, 04:22 AM

Oscar

scott0326

11-03-2011, 04:56 AM

Lebron

Rolando

11-03-2011, 05:03 AM

Oscar Robinson

Sakkreth

11-03-2011, 05:39 AM

Oscar.

RobertdeMeijer

11-03-2011, 05:46 AM

Jerry West

ShaqAttack3234

11-03-2011, 06:34 AM

Let's not rank players who aren't even past their primes yet. Lebron will get to this list but not yet, who knows he might end up in top 5 or even number 1. Kobe is in the list because it is safe to say we have seen his best days, he might still get higher though. Lebron is like what? 26? Dude can still accomplish a lot more, lets wait till he gets there.

Lebron still might accomplish more, but he should still be ranked.

And if Lebron isn't included then how exactly can people justify voting for Oscar?

In 10 years as the franchise player in Cincinnati before becoming Kareem's sidekick, Oscar won a total of 2 playoff series and led his team to 50 wins once while missing the playoffs four times in those 10 years.

Seems like his resume is more like KG's except with a less impressive championship as KG was at least Boston's best player when he won.

And Oscar's resume as the best player on his team falls well short of Lebron's.

D-Wade316

11-03-2011, 06:36 AM

Yung D-Will

11-03-2011, 07:17 AM

Oscar

Jan95

11-03-2011, 07:44 AM

West

Collie

11-03-2011, 08:19 AM

It's really between Oscar and West at this point IMO. I considered and even voted for Moses at first, but then realized that he was never the pioneer that West or Oscar were, and half of his prime (late 70's) was largely a time when competition was at the lowest point in NBA history.

Just comes down to whether you value West's longevity and greater impact later in his career or Oscar's ridiculous stats early on.

Asukal

11-03-2011, 09:05 AM

Lebron still might accomplish more, but he should still be ranked.

And if Lebron isn't included then how exactly can people justify voting for Oscar?

In 10 years as the franchise player in Cincinnati before becoming Kareem's sidekick, Oscar won a total of 2 playoff series and led his team to 50 wins once while missing the playoffs four times in those 10 years.

Seems like his resume is more like KG's except with a less impressive championship as KG was at least Boston's best player when he won.

And Oscar's resume as the best player on his team falls well short of Lebron's.

You are clearly missing the point. Lebron's career can go 3 ways from here, one he would accomplish a lot more and win the rings he badly needs as the man, two he would stay as Lebron the ringless, three he would get injured and become the 2nd coming of Grant Hill. If number three happens, his stats and everything else he has accomplished so far will be forgotten in the future and he will not even make it to top 20 of this list. Oscar's career is set in stone, so it is justified to vote for him. :facepalm

alenleomessi

11-03-2011, 09:11 AM

oscar

ShaqAttack3234

11-03-2011, 09:18 AM

You are clearly missing the point. Lebron's career can go 3 ways from here, one he would accomplish a lot more and win the rings he badly needs as the man, two he would stay as Lebron the ringless, three he would get injured and become the 2nd coming of Grant Hill. If number three happens, his stats and everything else he has accomplished so far will be forgotten in the future and he will not even make it to top 20 of this list. Oscar's career is set in stone, so it is justified to vote for him. :facepalm

First of all, Oscar didn't win a ring as the man.

And Lebron is not going to be Grant Hill no matter what. Lebron has been significantly better Hill's career was derailed by injuries after 6 seasons. Lebron has already played 8 healthy seasons. Hill didn't make it out of the first round in his prime, Lebron hasn't failed to do so since he started qualifying for the playoffs in '06. And as I mentioned, he's played in 3 finals and 2 conference finals.

He won't be "forgotten" the same way with 2 MVPs(neither of which were controversial), while Grant Hill was top 5 in MVP voting once when he was a distant 3rd behind Malone and Jordan with no first place votes. That was also his only year where he made the all-nba first team. Something Lebron has done 5 times.

There's a very good chance that we've seen Lebron at his best. I'd bet that he won't have a season that tops his 2009 season, and what is there to suggest that he'll be a better player than he was in '09/'10?

A ring will validate his career, but he doesn't need one when comparing him to players who weren't better than him and didn't win one as the man, or at all.

Asukal

11-03-2011, 09:29 AM

First of all, Oscar didn't win a ring as the man.

And Lebron is not going to be Grant Hill no matter what. Lebron has been significantly better Hill's career was derailed by injuries after 6 seasons. Lebron has already played 8 healthy seasons. Hill didn't make it out of the first round in his prime, Lebron hasn't failed to do so since he started qualifying for the playoffs in '06. And as I mentioned, he's played in 3 finals and 2 conference finals.

He won't be "forgotten" the same way with 2 MVPs(neither of which were controversial), while Grant Hill was top 5 in MVP voting once when he was a distant 3rd behind Malone and Jordan with no first place votes. That was also his only year where he made the all-nba first team. Something Lebron has done 5 times.

There's a very good chance that we've seen Lebron at his best. I'd bet that he won't have a season that tops his 2009 season, and what is there to suggest that he'll be a better player than he was in '09/'10?

A ring will validate his career, but he doesn't need one when comparing him to players who weren't better than him and didn't win one as the man, or at all.

If Lebron retires now, you'd really put him #11 in the all time list? That's ****ed up man. :facepalm

ShaqAttack3234

11-03-2011, 09:44 AM

If Lebron retires now, you'd really put him #11 in the all time list? That's ****ed up man. :facepalm

No, I voted for West. I'd put Lebron 13th behind West and Barkley.

Lebron's peak was arguably better than some top 10 players. His prime has been has arguably been as good as anyone not in the top 10. His resume is about as impressive as any non-top 10 players as well(and resume/accomplishments is an extremely flawed way to rank players). But yes, Lebron belongs in the top 11-15 discussion.

Name a few players who aren't top 10 and what they've done to clearly separate themselves from Lebron.

24r2

11-03-2011, 09:54 AM

lebron

Dragonyeuw

11-03-2011, 09:58 AM

Oscar Robertson

BIZARRO

11-03-2011, 10:14 AM

Regardless of the quality of this top 10, it was done presumably by people who actually saw them play....

Associated Press Top 10
Basketball Players of the 20th Century

1.Michael Jordan
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Earvin "Magic" Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Elgin Baylor
9. Jerry West
10. Julius Erving

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4piRZ8_7GY
1:13-1:55 especially.

What happens when people make judgements without watching players actually play, they begin to skew it; either by overrating or underrating because their judgement is based on something they've never seen or experienced. But if you go back to people who were there, Oscar is higher and criminally underrated on ISH.
You can sit back at your computer screen and bark out "titles as the man, MVP's, etc." but what people who experienced the players back then say means something. And Oscar by many, and quite frankly most, accounts was the absolute man.

Vote should have been Oscar a bit earlier IMO, but definitely now.

triangleoffense

11-03-2011, 11:07 AM

Lebron still might accomplish more, but he should still be ranked.

And if Lebron isn't included then how exactly can people justify voting for Oscar?

In 10 years as the franchise player in Cincinnati before becoming Kareem's sidekick, Oscar won a total of 2 playoff series and led his team to 50 wins once while missing the playoffs four times in those 10 years.

Seems like his resume is more like KG's except with a less impressive championship as KG was at least Boston's best player when he won.

And Oscar's resume as the best player on his team falls well short of Lebron's.

Lebron is just as good statistically as Oscar but if he finishes without a ring I can't see any justification in ranking him over the Big O considering how players like Barkley, Malone (Karl), and Ewing are all just as good talent and even skillset wise as Hakeem, Kareem and Russell yet are ranked way below them. Titles definitely mean something if you don't have any. Plus there's no justification of any sort in ranking Lebron any of those players I just mentioned when he has still yet to win a title and after the debacle this year in Miami. Let's not forget he's so far 0-2 in the Finals with atrocious stats. As good as he is talent wise let's also not forget that 90% of the game is between the ears, which is a very fitting idiom since it's the mental aspect of the game that separates the great players from the legends.

pauk

11-03-2011, 11:10 AM

oh ffs... just place Oscar at #11 already... has been underrated on ISH enough...

the dude is usually on ANY "experts" top 10 list.. somewhere between #5-#9

SLAM has him even at #5:
http://www.interbasket.net/news/7683/2011/04/top-500-nba-players-of-all-time-slam/

top 10 here:
http://www.hoopsmanifesto.com/articles/basketball/top-10-nba-players-of-all-time.html

and here:
http://bdlsports.net/2011/07/22/50-greatest-nba-players-ever-the-top-10/

and here:
http://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time

and so on and so on.... u wont see Jerry West over him

Yao Ming's Foot

11-03-2011, 12:06 PM

Jerry West

triangleoffense

11-03-2011, 12:30 PM

Moses Malone.

http://runwayboyz.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/moses-malone_2.jpg
Still can't tell if that's really Moses or a a really good cardboard cutout.

RRR3

11-03-2011, 12:39 PM

ISH-Where severely underrating Oscar Robertson happens. :facepalm How come it's okay to cite people saying how great Kobe is as evidence of him being top 10 but it doesn't matter what Wilt, Bill Russell, Jerry West, etc. said about Big O?

ShaqAttack3234

11-03-2011, 12:40 PM

But Oscar faced much tougher competition than KG or Lebron.

To some extent with the Celtics dynasty and the '67 Sixers. But Cincinnati was 39-42 when they played the '67 Sixers so it's a stretch to say they were the reason why Oscar didn't win that year.

They faced Boston 3 times, less than Ewing faced Jordan/Pippen's Bulls and the same amount of times that Barkley did. So it's no more valid of an excuse for Oscar not winning with the Royals than those players not winning.

And in 4 of those years, Oscar didn't make the playoffs so it wasn't Boston or Philly that prevented him from winning those seasons. I realize that the Royals record without Oscar had a lot to do with that in '68 and '70, but the competition excuse only goes so far in all of these cases.

It's not like Lebron had great teams prior to this season and KG didn't have any more chances to win than Oscar did during his entire career in Minnesota. KG also faced the 2 dominant teams of his era twice each(Spurs and Lakers).

Regardless of the quality of this top 10, it was done presumably by people who actually saw them play....

Associated Press Top 10
Basketball Players of the 20th Century

1.Michael Jordan
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Earvin "Magic" Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Elgin Baylor
9. Jerry West
10. Julius Erving

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4piRZ8_7GY
1:13-1:55 especially.

What happens when people make judgements without watching players actually play, they begin to skew it; either by overrating or underrating because their judgement is based on something they've never seen or experienced. But if you go back to people who were there, Oscar is higher and criminally underrated on ISH.
You can sit back at your computer screen and bark out "titles as the man, MVP's, etc." but what people who experienced the players back then say means something. And Oscar by many, and quite frankly most, accounts was the absolute man.

Vote should have been Oscar a bit earlier IMO, but definitely now.

You're assuming that the people who made that list watched Oscar play.

I've seen many current analysts who are around 40ish put Oscar in their top 10 and back it up with nothing other than the fact that he averaged a triple double, which of course is an incredibly weak argument and in fact makes him overrated, imo.

I also realize that many old time players respect him a lot more to that and I'll listen when I hear Russell, West or Wilt praise him, but as soon as someone backs it up with just the triple double number, I tune them out because it's such a simple-minded and ignorant argument.

Lebron is just as good statistically as Oscar but if he finishes without a ring I can't see any justification in ranking him over the Big O considering how players like Barkley, Malone (Karl), and Ewing are all just as good talent and even skillset wise as Hakeem, Kareem and Russell yet are ranked way below them. Titles definitely mean something if you don't have any. Plus there's no justification of any sort in ranking Lebron any of those players I just mentioned when he has still yet to win a title and after the debacle this year in Miami. Let's not forget he's so far 0-2 in the Finals with atrocious stats. As good as he is talent wise let's also not forget that 90% of the game is between the ears, which is a very fitting idiom since it's the mental aspect of the game that separates the great players from the legends.

I strongly disagree about Barkley, Ewing and especially Karl Malone being as talented as Hakeem and Kareem.

As far as Russell, you can't really separate him from the rings, he's much tougher to compare because when it comes to winning, he's so far ahead of the rest. And it's even tougher because his skill set likely doesn't lead to anywhere near the same results in Hakeem's era for example, but he's also probably the most effective player relative to the era they played in.

I'm not forgetting about Lebron's failures either. But again, once you get past the top 10 players, you're not seeing players who were any more dominant individually than Lebron and have multiple titles as the man, some who get mentioned in the 11-15 range don't have 1 title as the man, or any titles period.

Look at Karl Malone. I respect his longevity, but I'd take my chances with Lebron over Karl anyday. Why? Because I watched both and know that Lebron is a better player, and both have given reasons to question their mentality. All Karl's longevity got was more years where he didn't win a ring.

Yao Ming's Foot

11-03-2011, 12:44 PM

No, I voted for West. I'd put Lebron 13th behind West and Barkley.

Lebron's peak was arguably better than some top 10 players. His prime has been has arguably been as good as anyone not in the top 10. His resume is about as impressive as any non-top 10 players as well(and resume/accomplishments is an extremely flawed way to rank players). But yes, Lebron belongs in the top 11-15 discussion.

Name a few players who aren't top 10 and what they've done to clearly separate themselves from Lebron.

What exactly do your rank player on if not accomplishments/resume? That sounds ridiculous.

Yao Ming's Foot

11-03-2011, 12:50 PM

Look at Karl Malone. I respect his longevity, but I'd take my chances with Lebron over Karl anyday. Why? Because I watched both and know that Lebron is a better player, and both have given reasons to question their mentality. All Karl's longevity got was more years where he didn't win a ring.

I like how you know Malone for not winning a ring but prop up LeBron whose entire playoff legacy involved beating the following teams..

2007 Detroit Pistons (53-29)
2009 Atlanta Hawks (47-35)
2008 Washington Wizards (43-39)
2011 Philadelphia 76ers (41-41)
2010 Chicago Bulls (41-41)
2007 Washington Wizards (41-41)
2007 New Jersey Nets (41-41)
2009 Detroit Pistons (39-43)

before bandwagoing with a couple of all stars and coming up with lesser imitation of Scottie Pippen in a humiliating Finals

Deuce Bigalow

11-03-2011, 01:26 PM

Now you are derailing your own thread with Kobe stuff :oldlol: :banghead:

Anyway, Wade's run in '06 was more dominant. KG = take your pick, 2004 playoffs or 2008. Either were more dominant. Chuck = probably a few more, but without a doubt 1993 playoffs. Beasted vs Jordan. Moses, 1983 was a BOSS. Swept Magic/Kareem Lakers as the best man on his team! '81 He was a stud too. Don't really know how anyone can deny these.

better than 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg on 56 TS% winning a championship and Finals MVP? No
Only 4 other players have ever averaged over 30 ppg during the playoffs and win a championship the same year

GOATofGOATS

11-03-2011, 01:42 PM

I'm voting for Jerry West here. :cheers:

Dbrog

11-03-2011, 01:51 PM

better than 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg on 56 TS% winning a championship and Finals MVP? No

:hammerhead: When will people learn it's not about numbers? Even still:

Wade 06 - 28.4/5.9/5.7 with 2.2 stls and 1.1 blks on 50% real shooting while singlehandedly taking over games and winning them with his 3rd leading scorer being Shimmy Walker. He won a fcking chip with these people!

KG 04 - 24.3/14.6/5.1 with 1.3 stls and 2.3 blks on 45% shooting while completely anchoring a defense and leading some pretty bad teammates.

Chuck 93 - 26.6/13.6/4.3 with 1.6 stls and 1 blk on 48% shooting with KJ and Thunder Dan and a bunch of complete crap teammates. He lead these guys past GP/Kemp Sonics, prime Robinson Spurs, and battled prime Jordan/Pip Bulls to 6 games!

Moses 83 - 26/15.8/1.5 with 1.5 stls and 1.9 blks on 54% shooting while leading an aged Dr. J (though still good), Andrew Tony, and not much else past a Magic/Kareem Lakers squad.

The things these guys did, was better than any single run that Kobe had. These guys flat out carried these teams...literally did everything. They led their teams to places that they had no business being. I'm sorry, but Kobe never did that. You might have been able to make the case for 06 Kobe if he didn't quit on his team.

pegasus

11-03-2011, 01:54 PM

Jerry East... No, I mean Terry West... God damn it! Lebron then! Wait, not that *****. Jerry West it is.

Deuce Bigalow

11-03-2011, 01:59 PM

:hammerhead: When will people learn it's not about numbers? Even still:

Wade 06 - 28.4/5.9/5.7 with 2.2 stls and 1.1 blks on 50% real shooting while singlehandedly taking over games and winning them with his 3rd leading scorer being Shimmy Walker. He won a fcking chip with these people!

KG 04 - 24.3/14.6/5.1 with 1.3 stls and 2.3 blks on 45% shooting while completely anchoring a defense and leading some pretty bad teammates.

Chuck 93 - 26.6/13.6/4.3 with 1.6 stls and 1 blk on 48% shooting with KJ and Thunder Dan and a bunch of complete crap teammates. He lead these guys past GP/Kemp Sonics, prime Robinson Spurs, and battled prime Jordan/Pip Bulls to 6 games!

Moses 83 - 26/15.8/1.5 with 1.5 stls and 1.9 blks on 54% shooting while leading an aged Dr. J (though still good), Andrew Tony, and not much else past a Magic/Kareem Lakers squad.

The things these guys did, was better than any single run that Kobe had.

There all good but Kobe's run is better

Wade dominated one series, and he had Shaq and Alonzo so dont act like he did it all by himself, and he averaged 3.9 turnovers per game, compared to 2.6 for Kobe

30.2/5.3/5.5/1.7/0.9/56.4 TS%, championship, finals MVP was more dominant

bballnoob1192

11-03-2011, 02:01 PM

Deuce Bigalow

11-03-2011, 02:12 PM

Still can't tell if that's really Moses or a a really good cardboard cutout.

:oldlol:

Dbrog

11-03-2011, 02:13 PM

There all good but Kobe's run is better

Wade dominated one series, and he had Shaq and Alonzo so dont act like he did it all by himself, and he averaged 3.9 turnovers per game, compared to 2.6 for Kobe

30.2/5.3/5.5/1.7/0.9/56.4 TS%, championship, finals MVP was more dominant

It's weird, it's like you didn't watch those playoffs (but you must have since it wasn't long ago). Everyone saw Wade go nuts and some people even said he was lookin like Jordan (not me though). It was very clear he put that team on his back. Yes, Posey and GP had some memorable moments too, but Wade was who destroyed teams. Clearly, I'm not going to change your opinion and this is enough talk about a guy who already is on this list (Kobe). Just sad that Kobe ******gers (not necessarily you) think if anyone says anything bag about Kobe, they must have an agenda or hate him. Quite the contrary, he's one of my favorite players in history and watching him in 2006 was otherworldly. Anyway...I'm done talking about this.

NugzHeat3

11-03-2011, 02:16 PM

:hammerhead: When will people learn it's not about numbers? Even still:

Wade 06 - 28.4/5.9/5.7 with 2.2 stls and 1.1 blks on 50% real shooting while singlehandedly taking over games and winning them with his 3rd leading scorer being Shimmy Walker. He won a fcking chip with these people!

KG 04 - 24.3/14.6/5.1 with 1.3 stls and 2.3 blks on 45% shooting while completely anchoring a defense and leading some pretty bad teammates.

Chuck 93 - 26.6/13.6/4.3 with 1.6 stls and 1 blk on 48% shooting with KJ and Thunder Dan and a bunch of complete crap teammates. He lead these guys past GP/Kemp Sonics, prime Robinson Spurs, and battled prime Jordan/Pip Bulls to 6 games!

Moses 83 - 26/15.8/1.5 with 1.5 stls and 1.9 blks on 54% shooting while leading an aged Dr. J (though still good), Andrew Tony, and not much else past a Magic/Kareem Lakers squad.

The things these guys did, was better than any single run that Kobe had. These guys flat out carried these teams...literally did everything. They led their teams to places that they had no business being. I'm sorry, but Kobe never did that. You might have been able to make the case for 06 Kobe if he didn't quit on his team.
Not sure if serious.

That team wasn't crap at all and the refs got them to the finals by gifting them a terrible call to get by the 39 W Lakers and then shafting Houston out of the equation which left Seattle to face PHX.

bballnoob1192

11-03-2011, 02:25 PM

Not sure if serious.

That team wasn't crap at all and the refs got them to the finals by gifting them a terrible call to get by the 39 W Lakers and then shafting Houston out of the equation which left Seattle to face PHX.

Well one thing i've learn on ISH is that people tend to underrate the shit out of a superstar's teammates when they dont win, but when they do win sasha vujacic and luke walton can look like all-stars. just saying its ridiculous

ShaqAttack3234

11-03-2011, 02:35 PM

What exactly do your rank player on if not accomplishments/resume? That sounds ridiculous.

How about how well the players played and how good they were? Makes more sense than just listing accomplishments which depend heavily on circumstances such as the teams you face, teams you play on and in particular subjective awards where reputation, a good story/exceeding expectations factor into the equation as well.

I like how you know Malone for not winning a ring but prop up LeBron whose entire playoff legacy involved beating the following teams..

2007 Detroit Pistons (53-29)
2009 Atlanta Hawks (47-35)
2008 Washington Wizards (43-39)
2011 Philadelphia 76ers (41-41)
2010 Chicago Bulls (41-41)
2007 Washington Wizards (41-41)
2007 New Jersey Nets (41-41)
2009 Detroit Pistons (39-43)

before bandwagoing with a couple of all stars and coming up with lesser imitation of Scottie Pippen in a humiliating Finals

Lebron can only beat who he faces. He still performed better in the '09 run and this past playoff run(prior to the finals) than Malone did in the playoffs. And Malone wasn't exactly great in the finals either.

How many teams has Lebron lost to that he should've beaten? I'll give you Dallas last year, but even the 2010 Celtics were a more talented team than Lebron's '10 Cavs, though I'll admit that if Lebron played near his usual level after game 3 that they could've won.

And it's not really that Malone didn't win a ring, it's the fact that for the most part, he was exposed in the playoffs and didn't play as well. Lebron has had some disappointing playoff failures, but that doesn't put him below Malone who was at least as disappointing, if not more so as well as being an inferior player to Lebron.

Moses 83 - 26/15.8/1.5 with 1.5 stls and 1.9 blks on 54% shooting while leading an aged Dr. J (though still good), Andrew Tony, and not much else past a Magic/Kareem Lakers squad.

:wtf: That team was unbelievably loaded. They had gone 58-24 and made the finals the year before without Moses.

They also had 4 all-stars in '83 with Moses, Dr. J, Toney and Mo Cheeks. All made multiple all-star teams. Dr. J was still all-nba first team and top 5 in MVP voting. Then they also had Bobby Jones who had made the '81 and '82 all-star teams, but became 6th man of the year in '83.

Jones and Cheeks also made numerous all-defensive first teams. So Moses had a cast with 4 all-star caliber players, elite defenders and another superstar.

That cast was easily better than Kobe's.

Dbrog

11-03-2011, 02:36 PM

@NugzHeat - Conspiracy theoriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiies

NugzHeat3

11-03-2011, 02:53 PM

@NugzHeat - Conspiracy theoriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiies
You should check some of those calls out, they'd be removed if they had instant replay like they had today. Suns had home court, hype after the Barkley trade and Charles was the best player on the DREAM Team so they were going for a Barkley vs Jordan finals.

Houston was robbed in game 7 against Seattle as well as the last game of the season which took away home court when they faced Seattle.

The West in 1993 had too many incidents for me to be really impressed by his run.

Definitely an asterisk on his finals appearance.

I'm not even alluding to the fact that they had a great team without him.

Kevin Johnson
Dan Majerle
Cedric Ceballos
Richard Dumas
Danny Ainge
Tom Chambers

The only thing they lacked was a good defensive C to provide shot blocking but when the offense is that loaded, that's a sacrifice they had to make. Oliver Miller, as bad of a rap he gets for his weight, had some good games those playoffs especially the deciding game 5 against the Lakers.

ZaaaaaH

11-03-2011, 02:57 PM

He's played 8 seasons. How many players were better than Lebron at his peak, or even now?

How many have better resumes than 2 MVPs, 2 finals appearances, 3 conference finals appearances, 5 all-nba first teams, 2 more all-nba second teams, two 60 win seasons, five 50+ win seasons.

He's definitely more than halfway done with the relevant portion of his career, and really, if players weren't as good as prime/peak Lebron and didn't really accomplish more even in a longer career(Oscar, Karl Malone ect.) then why should they be ranked above Lebron?

LOL its simple All-Time is a Career ranking not based on Peak/Prime which does matter but not much as the Entire Career stats.

36928 > 17362
14968 > 4451

LeBron still has about 3-5 more years to Crack Top 15. You guys are straight up disrespecting the Old Legends putting LeBron at 11 LOL.

rmt

11-03-2011, 03:19 PM

As far as Russell, you can't really separate him from the rings, he's much tougher to compare because when it comes to winning, he's so far ahead of the rest. And it's even tougher because his skill set likely doesn't lead to anywhere near the same results in Hakeem's era for example, but he's also probably the most effective player relative to the era they played in.

I'm not forgetting about Lebron's failures either. But again, once you get past the top 10 players, you're not seeing players who were any more dominant individually than Lebron and have multiple titles as the man, some who get mentioned in the 11-15 range don't have 1 title as the man, or any titles period.

Look at Karl Malone. I respect his longevity, but I'd take my chances with Lebron over Karl anyday. Why? Because I watched both and know that Lebron is a better player, and both have given reasons to question their mentality. All Karl's longevity got was more years where he didn't win a ring.

No, I voted for West. I'd put Lebron 13th behind West and Barkley.

Lebron's peak was arguably better than some top 10 players. His prime has been has arguably been as good as anyone not in the top 10. His resume is about as impressive as any non-top 10 players as well(and resume/accomplishments is an extremely flawed way to rank players). But yes, Lebron belongs in the top 11-15 discussion.

Name a few players who aren't top 10 and what they've done to clearly separate themselves from Lebron.

I'm not understanding your reasoning for ranking Lebron #13 in regard to how you view Bill Russell and Moses. You can't separate Russell from winning, but say that "resume/accomplishments is an extremely flawed way to rank players." Yet Moses won a championship as the man (Finals MVP), 3 MVPs and is at least top 7 in points and rebounds and you'd have him at best #14 behind Lebron?

If Lebron's career ended today, I don't see the justification of ranking him ahead of Moses. I'd forgive his Finals against the Spurs (no way were the Cavs winning that) but his performance against the Mavs doesn't say top 13 to me. It's not that they didn't win (I don't hold '11 Finals against Wade) but how Lebron played (passive/disappearing).

Winning is the goal of the game, and between Lebron and Moses, it (along with his 3 MVPs and career numbers) should be enough to edge out whatever statistical dominance (peak) Lebron has. If not, then Russell should be lower on your list.

Yao Ming's Foot

11-03-2011, 03:26 PM

LOL its simple All-Time is a Career ranking not based on Peak/Prime which does matter but not much as the Entire Career stats.

36928 > 17362
14968 > 4451

LeBron still has about 3-5 more years to Crack Top 15. You guys are straight up disrespecting the Old Legends putting LeBron at 11 LOL.

Exactly! To even consider Lebron you basically have to double his career up to this point. Give him credit for things he has yet to accomplish. Its basically the LeBron fan mantra .:facepalm

ShaqAttack3234

11-03-2011, 03:37 PM

LOL its simple All-Time is a Career ranking not based on Peak/Prime which does matter but not much as the Entire Career stats.

Oh, because you say so, everyone must think that. :facepalm

I happen to think that prime is the most important. Peak is also a factor, but best stretch of 3-5 years is how I evaluate how good a player really was. It's not just me either.

I'm not understanding your reasoning for ranking Lebron #13 in regard to how you view Bill Russell and Moses. You can't separate Russell from winning, but say that "resume/accomplishments is an extremely flawed way to rank players." Yet Moses won a championship as the man (Finals MVP), 3 MVPs and is at least top 7 in points and rebounds and you'd have him at best #14 behind Lebron?

If Lebron's career ended today, I don't see the justification of ranking him ahead of Moses. I'd forgive his Finals against the Spurs (no way were the Cavs winning that) but his performance against the Mavs doesn't say top 13 to me. It's not that they didn't win (I don't hold '11 Finals against Wade) but how Lebron played (passive/disappearing).

Winning is the goal of the game, and between Lebron and Moses, it (along with his 3 MVPs and career numbers) should be enough to edge out whatever statistical dominance (peak) Lebron has. If not, then Russell should be lower on your list.

It's not hard for me to justify Lebron over Moses. Moses won 1 title, and he did so on a team with 4 other all-star caliber players(one of which was another superstar) and look at that team the 3 previous years without him.

1982- 58-24, lost in game 6 of the finals
1981- 62-20, lost in game 7 of the ECF(to the eventual champion Celtics)
1980- 59-23, lost in game 6 of the finals

It's not like the team was built around Moses(despite him being their best player), he went to a team that was already a serious title contender that kept it's core intact when acquiring him.

Lebron's peak season in 2009 was better than Malone's '83, imo. Despite not winning a title, he played unbelievable all season, including the playoffs and I don't blame him for losing to Orlando considered how well he played and the true problems in that series.

Lebron is also simply a better player.

Moses was a very good scoring big man and an all-time great rebounder.

But when you watch Moses, you'll be hard pressed to find a bigger black hole. He'd completely ignore double teams and rarely pass out of them, which is probably why is assist/turnover ratio is so horrendous.

And defensively, he seems to be the least impactful of the great centers. His Rocket teams were always poor defensively and sometimes the worst or 2nd defensive team in the league and he wasn't an elite shot blocker defensively.

So he won 1 title with a team that was already pretty much the 2nd or 3rd best team for 3 straight years without him. It's not like he won multiple titles.

And again, I see Lebron and I see a better player at both ends.

kaiteng

11-03-2011, 03:40 PM

Oscar for the fifth time already?

Harison

11-03-2011, 03:46 PM

West

Inception28

11-03-2011, 08:21 PM

Whats the results so far? Time to go to #12 since this thread has been abandoned?

Deuce Bigalow

11-03-2011, 08:27 PM

Whats the results so far? Time to go to #12 since this thread has been abandoned?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6455160&postcount=76
Post #76

DMV2

11-03-2011, 08:41 PM

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6455160&postcount=76
Post #76
Wow, that's really close. West up by one vote.

I say keep the poll up until the clock strikes midnight eastern night, which is 3 and a half hours away, and then put up #12 thread.

Jacks3

11-03-2011, 08:51 PM

:
The things these guys did, was better than any single run that Kobe had. These guys flat out carried these teams...literally did everything. They led their teams to places that they had no business being. I'm sorry, but Kobe never did that. You might have been able to make the case for 06 Kobe if he didn't quit on his team.
Holy crap. You are truly a moron. Carried a team? Moses/Chuck/ and Wade had better supporting casts than what Kobe had in 08,09, or 2010.

Seriously. No business being there? Those Sixers teams were routinely winning 57+ games and making the Finals before Moses got there. Chuck was on a ridiculously stacked team (Majerle/Ceballos/Ainge/Kevin Johnson/Tom Chambers/Dumas) that had one of the best guards in the league and was winning 50+ games every year before he got there.

KG had two excellent guards. That team won 58 teams and had the #1 seed. How did they have "no business" being in the WCF?

Wade had the best center in the league, the best back-up big/excellent defender in Alonzo, and a bunch of excellent role-players. The Heat were among the favorites before the season.

"No business being there".

LMAO.

Even just going by the numbers, Kobe's 30/6/6/2/58% TS in 2008 is better than all those runs, and so is 30/6/5/2/57% TS/27 PER in 09.

You are a ****king moron. :roll:

Heavincent

11-03-2011, 09:33 PM

Holy crap. You are truly a moron. Carried a team? Moses/Chuck/ and Wade had better supporting casts than what Kobe had in 08,09, or 2010.

Seriously. No business being there? Those Sixers teams were routinely winning 57+ games and making the Finals before Moses got there. Chuck was on a ridiculously stacked team (Majerle/Ceballos/Ainge/Kevin Johnson/Tom Chambers/Dumas) that had one of the best guards in the league and was winning 50+ games every year before he got there.

KG had two excellent guards. That team won 58 teams and had the #1 seed. How did they have "no business" being in the WCF?

Wade had the best center in the league, the best back-up big/excellent defender in Alonzo, and a bunch of excellent role-players. The Heat were among the favorites before the season.

"No business being there".

LMAO.

Even just going by the numbers, Kobe's 30/6/6/2/58% TS in 2008 is better than all those runs, and so is 30/6/5/2/57% TS/27 PER in 09.

You are a ****king moron. :roll:

Well said :applause:

jacobgoindum

11-03-2011, 09:35 PM

triangleoffense

11-03-2011, 09:48 PM

I strongly disagree about Barkley, Ewing and especially Karl Malone being as talented as Hakeem and Kareem.

As far as Russell, you can't really separate him from the rings, he's much tougher to compare because when it comes to winning, he's so far ahead of the rest. And it's even tougher because his skill set likely doesn't lead to anywhere near the same results in Hakeem's era for example, but he's also probably the most effective player relative to the era they played in.

I'm not forgetting about Lebron's failures either. But again, once you get past the top 10 players, you're not seeing players who were any more dominant individually than Lebron and have multiple titles as the man, some who get mentioned in the 11-15 range don't have 1 title as the man, or any titles period.

Look at Karl Malone. I respect his longevity, but I'd take my chances with Lebron over Karl anyday. Why? Because I watched both and know that Lebron is a better player, and both have given reasons to question their mentality. All Karl's longevity got was more years where he didn't win a ring.

Ok the Malone/Barkley to Hakeem/Kareem argument was a bad example but my point was is that winning and the mental aspect of the game are oftentimes the tiebreakers in determining the hall of famers from the legends of the game, players who rank among the best and the best. If you've ever read Simmon's book of basketball he makes a good point about there being a pyramid system for ranking hall of famers and that it's hard to seperate 2nd from 3rd but easier to seperate players into different "echelons". To give you another example of what I mean just take a look at both Lebron's and Kobe's careers, to date. It's pretty apparent that Lebron has just as much talent as Kobe, arguably more but if Lebron finishes his career with 0 titles you would undeniably put Kobe higher on an all time list and also higher on the "echelon-pyramid" system, despite Lebron arguably having more talent than Kobe.

And also I would have to disagree with your point about how there is a lack of players outside the 11-15 range who have won the title as the man. West, Hondo, Malone (Moses), Dr. J, Mikan and even Wade and Barry come to mind. If Lebron finishes with 0 rings, or all of his came at the expenses of Wade getting Finals MVP would you really put Lebron over any of those players?