View Full Version : Which Style of Player Is Hardest To Defend?
WillyJakk
11-03-2011, 05:46 PM
This is not a dis to any players chosen to represent each style.
Defense wins championships (well, at least that's what I heard) and defense in fact has 4 stages: man, on ball, help, and rebounding.
So w/ that said:
Which Style of Player Is Hardest To Defend?
The "Chucker" (Represented By Allen Iverson)
http://invazion.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/t1_iverson.jpg
This guy has the greenlight to shoot whenever and however he wants. He has the authority to dribble 23 seconds then put up a shot if that's what he wants to do.
The "Shooting Specialist" (Represented by Ray Allen)
http://therealfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/allen.jpg
This guy can flat out shoot it, off the dribble, running off screens, hand in the face, or not...don't get caught slippin' cause if they take it, they'll make it, if not, they always believe the next one is goin' down.
The "Rebounding Specialist" (Represented by Dennis Rodman)
http://mediaoutrage.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Dennis-Rodman-Detroit.jpg
This guy doesn't want to score, naw...he doesn't get off on that, his sole purpose for being on the floor is to rebound the freakin' ball, by any means, and these guys usually have an incredibly high energy level, too making keeping them off the glass a freakin' mission.
The "Superstar" (Represented by Dwyane Wade)
http://cdn100.iofferphoto.com/img3/item/155/613/101/dwyane-wade-miami-heat-games-on-dvd-9739f.jpg
You can defend this guy as good as you can all you want to but sometimes your best isn't good enough, and even when it is...this guy still ends up on the free throw line more often than not.
The "Ground & Pounder" (Represented by Shaq)
http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/shared-blogs/austin/golden/upload/2009/03/0220vslal_shaq_position_300.jpg
You already know what this dude is gonna do when he runs down the court...go to the block call and call for the ball, if he doesn't get it, he'll go to the other block and call for the ball, all the while bumping you like crazy and once they get the rock...they get REALLY physical.
The "Contemporary Big Man" (Represented by Dirk Nowitzki)
http://allucanheat.com/files/2011/05/dirk-j.jpg
These guys are 6'10"+ and will face up J you the entire game and just when you think they're gonna pull up for another J, they pump fake and drive right past you to the hole. "Sh*t!"
The "Playmaker" (Represented by Jason Kidd)
http://images.mylot.com/userImages/images/postphotos/1555944.jpg
This guy can score but he'd rather make you look foolish while he creates offense for his teammates. You know it's coming, you know he's gonna pass the ball but you just don't know when but when he does, the results usually brings the crowd to their feet.
The "Penetrator" (Represented by Derrick Rose)
http://images.athlonsports.com/d/13502-1/Derrick+rose.jpg
This guy can't really shoot (but can get hot and torch you), his preference/ specialty is lowering his shoulder, use his speed/ quickness, and take it the rim. He does not stop, he does not pass Go, he goes directly to the basket.
And yes, some players have multiple traits, I selected the one that repped that playing style best.
Who's your pick and why?
D-Wade316
11-03-2011, 05:48 PM
The "Ground & Pounder". Shaq was like a fvcking tank. No one can stop him, literally.
............ Superstar...... cuz that's why they're superstars right?
Lebron23
11-03-2011, 06:26 PM
The Ground and Pounder
Young/Prime Shaq always put up some quality numbers against the best PF/C in NBA history.
Fiasco
11-03-2011, 06:27 PM
How do you defend a mobile Snorlax?
You don't.
Ground&Pound.
NBAller
11-03-2011, 06:34 PM
It's a toss up between "Ground and Pound", "Comptemporary BigMan"
AI3Anthony
11-03-2011, 06:40 PM
1 on 1 the penetrator is without a doubt the hardest to defend.
Bernie Nips
11-03-2011, 06:43 PM
The Hakeem Olajuwon.
Asukal
11-03-2011, 07:06 PM
The superstar I guess, a player with so much offensive versatility there's no way to effectively shut him down. :oldlol:
Kevin_Gamble
11-03-2011, 07:13 PM
Shaq
Dirk
As for the rest, it really depends on who you have on defense, but AI > Rose for sure.
Crown&Coke
11-03-2011, 07:38 PM
I tend to agree that defense wins championships for the most part, but you still need to be able to put up some points to win. Those AI teams had terrific defense for years, and only one finals appearance, Larry Brown accpepted no less from guys not named AI, that team was build around AI's scoring and everyone else lock up.
But more than defense wins titles, I would argue points in the paint win titles, AKA easy buckets.
Every team in the past 20 years won titles with paint touches, even those MJ lead teams (well less so in the first 3-peat but MJ did rock that paint more than most guards)
Even Dirk torched everyone with post scoring, and less with that shooting touch.
-AI aint sniffed a title shot since 2001 with that gloriful run
-RayRay aint sniffed a title before he got a low post scorer in KG (who in that 2008 finals run went down to the low block more than I had ever seen him and has not gotten in the paint as much since due to his inability to keep low post position with that gimpy knee)
-Rebounding is important, but if you can't score you don't win
-Superstars who are jump shooters can't do it (Kobe couldn't get into the paint at all against the Celtics in 08 and they got snuffed) a superstar who controlls the paint can though
-Playmakers like Kidd/Nash can't do it with fast breaks because in the playoffs the game slows down.
-Penetrators find it harder to get into the paint in the playoffs and playoff fouls slow them down after so many hits.
D-Wade316
11-03-2011, 07:42 PM
Second is The "Superstar"
Odinn
11-03-2011, 07:49 PM
I think there would be a style name for fundamental.
Also, I agree with most of you. Ground&Ponder is hardest to defend.
Boston C's
11-03-2011, 08:00 PM
How do you defend a mobile Snorlax?
You don't.
Ground&Pound.
lmao this for sure
I'll tell you one thing though if a great scorer/shooter gets hot they are pretty much unstoppable as well
Jasper
11-03-2011, 08:05 PM
The "Ground & Pounder". Shaq was like a fvcking tank. No one can stop him, literally.
Nailed it ... a low block high percentage big man , wins championships more so than not.
Depends on what you mean by defend. You CAN'T defend Dirk as he can simply shoot over you. However, you can be the greatest shooter in the world and miss shots. So with Dirk, the only person that stops Dirk Nowitzki is Dirk Nowitzki. And seeing how he's been to "only" two finals and has won "only" one championship, he's either shot himself out of games or has not been aggressive enough in games. Same thing can be said about Shaq. He's pretty much unstoppable when you think about (especially the way he has been officiated, same with Tim Duncan. At times they've been allowed to just knock guys over). However, despite his superior size,strength, athleticism, and efficiency, he won 4 titles in his 18 seasons... 22%. You can argue he didn't get the ball enough (especially in Pistons Finals), however, you could also argue that he (and anyone for that matter) doesn't have the stamina to put up significantly more shots without taking a hit in efficiency. You can't put play 48 minutes a game and put up 50 shots a game, and if you did you'd get murdered at the other end.
So what I'm trying to say is both the "ground and pound" and "modern big man" are "unstoppable" in the only sense a player is "unstoppable" in the NBA. In my estimation they're the two hardest to defend.
Go Getter
11-03-2011, 09:43 PM
Dirk shoots 47% and doesn't really cause too many shifts in the D and now he's more unstoppable than D. Wade?
The correct answer is the penetrator.
Ground and pound players can be doubled easily and require good post passers.
A great penetrator is impossible to stop, they get fouls, pass off to open teammates, and score in bunches.
G-train
11-03-2011, 09:48 PM
Ground and pound players can be doubled easily and require good post passers.
Are you aware of the benefits to the team if your post played must be doubled?
bdreason
11-03-2011, 09:55 PM
I bigman who can score and pass from the post is by far the most difficult player to defend in basketball, even with all the rule changes the NBA has implemented to aid perimeter players.
bdreason
11-03-2011, 09:57 PM
As much as people talk about Shaq's unstoppable scoring ability, I feel like his passing ability is overlooked. If the NBA kept a hockey assist statistic, Shaq would have been towards the top his entire career.
Go Getter
11-03-2011, 11:00 PM
Are you aware of the benefits to the team if your post played must be doubled?
I am. However, there are no post players out there really. And with today's leniency on flopping it's all but neutralized power post players.
JaskoX1
11-03-2011, 11:05 PM
The "Penetrator" is probably the easiest to defend if your not Mo Williams or Derrick Rose.
ThaRegul8r
11-03-2011, 11:29 PM
As if anyone here has any personal experience playing defense and could thus tell you from first-hand experience what type of player is hardest to guard.
:oldlol:
Round Mound
11-03-2011, 11:40 PM
Barkley was the Biggest Missmatch Problem Ever in the Mid Range and Post Region
Dirk shoots 47% and doesn't really cause too many shifts in the D and now he's more unstoppable than D. Wade?
The correct answer is the penetrator.
Ground and pound players can be doubled easily and require good post passers.
A great penetrator is impossible to stop, they get fouls, pass off to open teammates, and score in bunches.
Closer to 48% for his career and 52% last season. Doesn't cause too many shifts on D, are you kidding? He's constantly double-teamed in both the high and low post. He also is a career 38% from 3 and 88% from the stripe. Oh, and if you dare bite on a pump fake he can put it on the floor. If you want to stop Dwayne Wade, stay in front of him because he can't shoot.
Go Getter
11-04-2011, 12:03 AM
Closer to 48% for his career and 52% last season. Doesn't cause too many shifts on D, are you kidding? He's constantly double-teamed in both the high and low post. He also is a career 38% from 3 and 88% from the stripe. Oh, and if you dare bite on a pump fake he can put it on the floor. If you want to stop Dwayne Wade, stay in front of him because he can't shoot.
1. Like it's just that simple to stay in front of D. Wade and like he doesn't have just as many if not more game winners from distance than Dirk.
2. HE CAN put it on the floor, but c'mon now...you just acted like it was SO easy to guard Wade off the dribble then made Dirk seem like a beast off the bounce:facepalm
3. Dirk is not doubled nearly as much as other dominant 7-footers.
4. 41% in the finals.
1. Like it's just that simple to stay in front of D. Wade and like he doesn't have just as many if not more game winners from distance than Dirk.
2. HE CAN put it on the floor, but c'mon now...you just acted like it was SO easy to guard Wade off the dribble then made Dirk seem like a beast off the bounce:facepalm
3. Dirk is not doubled nearly as much as other dominant 7-footers.
4. 41% in the finals.
1. It's not easy to stay in front of him, but the point is IF you do, he's limited offensively. Dude can't shoot. Career 29% from 3 and 77% from the line.
2. The point is Dirk can beat you in more ways. He can post you up, shoot over you, hit the 3 in transition, and take you off the dribble.
3. Dirk is doubled plenty. All things being equal Dirk would be doubled less because he also has a perimeter game. It's hard and stupid to double him from the elbow or high post.
4. And a Championship and Finals MVP against a team with 3 stars. Also, if you watched the last game where he went 9/27, so many of them rattled out. What was he 1/12 in the first half? Easy buckets. Let's not forget Wade shot for 37.5% in an elimination game in the Finals, you know, the most important game in your life? :hammerhead:
creepingdeath
11-04-2011, 12:20 AM
Dirk shoots 47% and doesn't really cause too many shifts in the D and now he's more unstoppable than D. Wade?
The correct answer is the penetrator.
Ground and pound players can be doubled easily and require good post passers.
A great penetrator is impossible to stop, they get fouls, pass off to open teammates, and score in bunches.
You also always claim that Dirk has no post-up game.
From Tom Haberstroh:
47 players had at least 150 post-up plays last season. Best efficiency there? Dirk Nowitzki. Worst? Darko Milicic.
Dirk had 404 post-up plays, scored 464 pts (1.15 AVG). Darko had 411 post-up plays, scored 270 pts (0.66). #dirkvsdarko
Too lazy to research the amount of double teams Dirk had faced this past postseason. But it becomes obvious time and time again that you are clearly biased against him.
knicksman
11-04-2011, 12:25 AM
1. It's not easy to stay in front of him, but the point is IF you do, he's limited offensively. Dude can't shoot. Career 29% from 3 and 77% from the line.
2. The point is Dirk can beat you in more ways. He can post you up, shoot over you, hit the 3 in transition, and take you off the dribble.
3. Dirk is doubled plenty. All things being equal Dirk would be doubled less because he also has a perimeter game. It's hard and stupid to double him from the elbow or high post.
4. And a Championship and Finals MVP against a team with 3 stars. Also, if you watched the last game where he went 9/27, so many of them rattled out. What was he 1/12 in the first half? Easy buckets. Let's not forget Wade shot for 37.5% in an elimination game in the Finals, you know, the most important game in your life? :hammerhead:
na hes a rose fanboy so expect him to defend players with similar playing style as him. Its already obvious that big men wins in this league while wade needed 30+ fts just to get his only ring yet he continues to think wade/rose are better than dirk.
You also always claim that Dirk has no post-up game.
From Tom Haberstroh:
47 players had at least 150 post-up plays last season. Best efficiency there? Dirk Nowitzki. Worst? Darko Milicic.
Dirk had 404 post-up plays, scored 464 pts (1.15 AVG). Darko had 411 post-up plays, scored 270 pts (0.66). #dirkvsdarko
Dirk is a great post up player. His low post turn around fadeaway is lethal. Dirk's offensive game is more complete than D-Wade's. Also, it should be noted that Wade's style leaves him more vulnerable to injuries and it's pretty easy to stop someone who isn't playing. One last note :blah :blah :blah Dirk's game is and will age well, when Wade's athleticism declines he's going to have a very dramatic decline.
Go Getter
11-04-2011, 12:36 AM
Dirk is a great post up player. His low post turn around fadeaway is lethal. Dirk's offensive game is more complete than D-Wade's. Also, it should be noted that Wade's style leaves him more vulnerable to injuries and it's pretty easy to stop someone who isn't playing. One last note :blah :blah :blah Dirk's game is and will age well, when Wade's athleticism declines he's going to have a very dramatic decline.
You're off topic. And Dirk is a pretty poor post scorer compared to other 7 foot superstars.
You also always claim that Dirk has no post-up game.
From Tom Haberstroh:
47 players had at least 150 post-up plays last season. Best efficiency there? Dirk Nowitzki. Worst? Darko Milicic.
Dirk had 404 post-up plays, scored 464 pts (1.15 AVG). Darko had 411 post-up plays, scored 270 pts (0.66). #dirkvsdarko
Too lazy to research the amount of double teams Dirk had faced this past postseason. But it becomes obvious time and time again that you are clearly biased against him.
THIS
G-train
11-04-2011, 01:12 AM
You also always claim that Dirk has no post-up game.
From Tom Haberstroh:
47 players had at least 150 post-up plays last season. Best efficiency there? Dirk Nowitzki. Worst? Darko Milicic.
Dirk had 404 post-up plays, scored 464 pts (1.15 AVG). Darko had 411 post-up plays, scored 270 pts (0.66). #dirkvsdarko
Too lazy to research the amount of double teams Dirk had faced this past postseason. But it becomes obvious time and time again that you are clearly biased against him.
Does that include when he catches it in the high post, which is 15-20 feet from the basket for him.
Rooster
11-04-2011, 01:18 AM
Dirk is a great post up player. His low post turn around fadeaway is lethal. Dirk's offensive game is more complete than D-Wade's. Also, it should be noted that Wade's style leaves him more vulnerable to injuries and it's pretty easy to stop someone who isn't playing. One last note :blah :blah :blah Dirk's game is and will age well, when Wade's athleticism declines he's going to have a very dramatic decline.
That's not a low post, that's a high post which is away from painted area. Dirk does it with one leg, awkward shot but effective.
ballup
11-04-2011, 01:33 AM
Everyone is looking at the players representing the style, not the style itself.
In the team perspective, the hardest style to defend is the superstar (assuming this superstar is a wing). He can score on you so many ways and you will be at his will if he gets hot. He does every facet of the game well enough to not only respect it, but to fear it.
As for the one vs one perspective, the ground & pounder is the hardest to defend. Not only do you have to exert yourself to keep him away from the basket, you have to anticipate where he will go. Since he is so close to the basket, it's much easier for him to score than someone who is slightly open shooting 15 feet/or beyond. This can be countered by a smart double team or maybe a good post defender.
That's not a low post, that's a high post which is away from painted area. Dirk does it with one leg, awkward shot but effective.
You don't know what you're talking about... Dirk Nowitzki posts up in the low post all the time to fadeaway. You do understand where the low post is right? The low post is NOT IN THE PAINT.
http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/HalfCourtTerms.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FkuTaixJV4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HijXGZdUgl0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMpZ_9agBtQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_L7j-prmYc&feature=related
I'm not going to spend all day hunting up clips on youtube, but the lowpost fadeaway is like his #3 move after jumpshots from the elbow and isolation plays at the top of the key.
Rooster
11-04-2011, 02:13 AM
You don't know what you're talking about... Dirk Nowitzki posts up in the low post all the time to fadeaway. You do understand where the low post is right? The low post is NOT IN THE PAINT.
http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/HalfCourtTerms.gif
Maybe you are right but from my understanding is that's a low block from the baseline and when do a low post moves, you are going inside the painted area. But anyways Dirk moves are most high post somewhere across the foul line.
Maybe you are right but from my understanding is that's a low block from the baseline and when do a low post moves, you are going inside the painted area. But anyways Dirk moves are most high post somewhere across the foul line.
His posts are mostly high posts, I'm not saying he's the low post king but he gets a good deal of his buckets posting up in the low post and doing his turnaround fadeaway (and sometimes spin move like he did on Ibaka in the WCF).
Go Getter
11-04-2011, 07:59 AM
Ground and pound hasn't been effective since flopping came into play in the NBA.
And when I say post I mean low post....Dirk is the best since Jordan at high post ups.
Go Getter
11-04-2011, 08:03 AM
1. It's not easy to stay in front of him, but the point is IF you do, he's limited offensively. Dude can't shoot. Career 29% from 3 and 77% from the line.
2. The point is Dirk can beat you in more ways. He can post you up, shoot over you, hit the 3 in transition, and take you off the dribble.
3. Dirk is doubled plenty. All things being equal Dirk would be doubled less because he also has a perimeter game. It's hard and stupid to double him from the elbow or high post.
4. And a Championship and Finals MVP against a team with 3 stars. Also, if you watched the last game where he went 9/27, so many of them rattled out. What was he 1/12 in the first half? Easy buckets. Let's not forget Wade shot for 37.5% in an elimination game in the Finals, you know, the most important game in your life? :hammerhead:
Again, you said all you have to do is stay in front of Wade then you say Dirk can go right past you.
Do you not see the obvious error in that?
Dirk took one of the softest players to the cup a couple times in the finals and now all of a sudden he's a pf who can attack the basket a la Shawn Kemp? Dirk is very poor at attacking the basket strong. Be real. At 6'4" Wade attacks the basket way better than Dirk...you'd think Wade was 7 feet and Dirk was 6'3".
1. Doesn't matter if you hit all your shots and miss when they count. Wade hits shots when they count and is a better player than Dirk.
2. If that's your opinion then cool.
3. Wade has no perimeter game now?:facepalm
4. All three players did not play like stars and it wasn't because they got locked up by Dirk so ease back, lol.... The Mavs had help--Dirk didn't carry the team...in fact, the Jet carried them some as well.
Nice excuse for Dirk though (his shots rattled out, lol)
L8kersfan222
11-04-2011, 08:10 AM
All the heat fans in the first page are probably chuckers that never pass to the big man in pick up games, you know how they are.
Go Getter
11-04-2011, 08:12 AM
All the heat fans in the first page are probably chuckers that never pass to the big man in pick up games, you know how they are.
:oldlol:
Guards that watch highlights all day and don't know shit about running a ball club.
L8kersfan222
11-04-2011, 08:14 AM
:oldlol:
Guards that watch highlights all day and don't know shit about running a ball club.
Right under the basket and they lookin straight at you dribbling away, not passing.
Right under the basket and they lookin straight at you dribbling away, not passing.
Sounds like Kobe. :lol
Go Getter
11-04-2011, 08:37 AM
Right under the basket and they lookin straight at you dribbling away, not passing.
What kills me is when you're playing an organized or pickup game and have an obvious easy mismatch in the paint.
It takes a selfish fool to chuck up threes and dribble like Hot Sauce on an And1 tour when you can build an easy lead with quick low post shots.
Again, you said all you have to do is stay in front of Wade then you say Dirk can go right past you.
Do you not see the obvious error in that?
Dirk took one of the softest players to the cup a couple times in the finals and now all of a sudden he's a pf who can attack the basket a la Shawn Kemp? Dirk is very poor at attacking the basket strong. Be real. At 6'4" Wade attacks the basket way better than Dirk...you'd think Wade was 7 feet and Dirk was 6'3".
1. Doesn't matter if you hit all your shots and miss when they count. Wade hits shots when they count and is a better player than Dirk.
2. If that's your opinion then cool.
3. Wade has no perimeter game now?:facepalm
4. All three players did not play like stars and it wasn't because they got locked up by Dirk so ease back, lol.... The Mavs had help--Dirk didn't carry the team...in fact, the Jet carried them some as well.
Nice excuse for Dirk though (his shots rattled out, lol)
I never said Dirk couldn't be stopped putting the ball on the floor. I said IF you stay in front of him Wade is about useless because he can't shoot. If you stay in front of Dirk he is more useful because he can simply shoot over you.
You can claim all you like that Wade is better than Dirk and that's just like you're opinion, man. I've lost count, how many MVPs does Wade have? How many straight 50 win seasons? Dirk is a 10x NBA All-Star and 11x All-NBA (4x First Team... twice as many as Wade btw).
Yeah, Wade has a really sweet perimeter game, dude. He tries to blow by you and if not he bricks a shot. Reeeeeal awesome perimeter game. 29% career from 3 lol.
Also, I'm about tired of hearing about Wade being only 6'4" he has like a 7'1" freaking wingspan (which is why despite his very pedestrian vertical jump he can still dunk on Andy Varejao and also why he has the blocks he does as a guard).
SunsCaptain
11-05-2011, 12:06 PM
How do you defend a mobile Snorlax?
You don't.
Ground&Pound.
rofl for some reason before I read this I was thinking of snorlax but I had no idea why....
:lol
rodman91
11-05-2011, 12:23 PM
If we are talking about styles... Contemporary Big Man & Superstar.
But if we are talking about those players... It's Shaq & Iverson. In their prime, it was impossible stop them on offense.
calvin671996
11-05-2011, 12:28 PM
The "Contemporary Big Man",no doubt
oh..sorry... just only Dirk
you saw his performance in playoff, have anyone really defend him? Bosh? Ibaka? NO ONE
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