Is Wilt Chamberlain's 50.4ppg season overrated?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lets take a look at the numbers first:

20.0FG 39.5FGA 10.4FT 17.0FTA 50.4PPG

The shot attempts are what really is startling. The most impressive stat was the 48.5 minutes per game. Gotta give him credit there, even if that did mean he played in blow-outs.

If any other player (well, the Shaq, Kareem and Hakeem's) had that kinda stamina to play THAT MANY mpg and average THAT MANY shots, they too would average 50 points a game. But let's face it, no player has the stamina to go 48 minutes a game. So let's use another number: shot attempts per minutes played. Wilt, that season...took 0.814 shots for each minute he played. He also took 0.351 freethrows per minute.

Let's say 42mpg is realistic (Kobe for example shooting at that rate would average 44.7 points per game - taking into account his shooting %'s).

Other great scorers averages attempting shots at that rate...

Michael Jordan - 46.8ppg

Shaquille O'Neal - 47.0ppg

Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 48.4ppg

Allen Iverson - 40.1ppg

So anyway, point is, I almost forgot my point.. but If any great player were given Wilt's ridiculous circumstances and green light to shoot, they too could have averaged 50 points for a season or close to it. The thing is, could any player have the stamina to put up that many shots, at that rate, and getting abused and going to the line that much?

[ThaRegul8r]

:sleeping :blah

[jlauber]

Lets take a look at the numbers first:

20.0FG 39.5FGA 10.4FT 17.0FTA 50.4PPG

The shot attempts are what really is startling. The most impressive stat was the 48.5 minutes per game. Gotta give him credit there, even if that did mean he played in blow-outs.

If any other player (well, the Shaq, Kareem and Hakeem's) had that kinda stamina to play THAT MANY mpg and average THAT MANY shots, they too would average 50 points a game. But let's face it, no player has the stamina to go 48 minutes a game. So let's use another number: shot attempts per minutes played. Wilt, that season...took 0.814 shots for each minute he played. He also took 0.351 freethrows per minute.

Let's say 42mpg is realistic (Kobe for example shooting at that rate would average 44.7 points per game - taking into account his shooting %'s).

Other great scorers averages attempting shots at that rate...

Michael Jordan - 46.8ppg

Shaquille O'Neal - 47.0ppg

Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 48.4ppg

Allen Iverson - 40.1ppg

So anyway, point is, I almost forgot my point.. but If any great player were given Wilt's ridiculous circumstances and green light to shoot, they too could have averaged 50 points for a season or close to it. The thing is, could any player have the stamina to put up that many shots, at that rate, and getting abused and going to the line that much?

Wilt's .506 FG% came in a league that shot .426. Elgin Baylor shot .428 and Jerry West shot .445 (and the year before that he shot .419)

In MJ's '87 season, the league shot .480. And in Kobe's '06 season, the league shot .454, but had an eFG% of .490.

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's true that with individual scorers, pace will make more of a difference in extreme cases, and this is even true with more recent teams(Run TMC, 80's Nuggets ect.) and this goes well beyond that. Of course it had to for a player to get 39.5 FGA and 17 FTA. You simply couldn't do that with 1 player on a modern team. To put this into perspective, the average team in 2011 averaged 92.1 possessions per 48 minutes, Wilt's '62 Warriors averaged about 129.7. The fastest team in 2011 averaged 96.5.

There's also the 48.5 mpg. No doubt this shows that Wilt had phenomenal stamina, but this also wouldn't be remotely plausible now. Teams are more cautious about giving their stars rest now, and particularly when the game is out of reach. It's also considered showing up the other team. Wilt played every minute even in 20, 30, 40, 50 point blowouts, could you imagine the criticism he'd receive today for doing this?

To show somewhat of a modern example to how pace can affect an individual's scoring at extremes. Orlando Woolridge averaged 25.1 ppg on the '91 Nuggets. He was averaging 29 ppg before his injury. Denver's pace was 113.7. Woolridge hadn't averaged 20+ ppg since 1987 and his career high had been 22.9 in '85.

On that same Nugget team, Michael Adams averaged 26.5 ppg and 10.5 apg. In the rest of his career, his best averages were 18.5 ppg and 7.6 apg, both in different seasons.

Furthermore, his scoring average was nowhere near 50 ppg in the playoffs. It was actually 35 ppg on 28.9 FGA and 12.6 FTA. He averaged 33.6 in the 7 game series vs Boston and 37 the previous round vs Syracuse.

Then there's also the lane widening from 12 to 16 feet in the '64-'65 season. Both Willis Reed and Kareem felt this had an impact on Wilt's game. I personally don't think this made Wilt a worse player, but I do think it had an effect on how many shots he could attempt.

There's also defensive schemes which included far less double teaming as well as the fact that as Fatal has pointed out, there were only 3 rotation players in 1962 who were over 6'9". Which not only factors in the opposing big man guarding Wilt, but if there was help coming over, it was nothing like the athletic wing players 6'6"-6'9" that we've seen regularly the last 20+ years.

Wilt's peak is considered '67, and by then, he wasn't looking to score as much, but the year before when he still was. He averaged 33.5 ppg on 25.2 FGA and 12.4 FTA in 47.3 mpg. Starting to look less like a product of his era, particularly if you consider per 40 minutes that's 28.4 ppg on 21.3 FGA and 10.4 FTA.

And finally, this type of high volume scoring by Wilt didn't prove to be the way he was most effective for his teams. He seemed at his best as a shot blocker/defensive force, finisher and passer out of the post.

Wilt's 1962 was very good, but clearly not his own best, imo. And the biggest mistake people make is comparing it to modern player's scoring when there is no way to make a fair comparison. It's simply not possible to shoot that much or score that much today, particularly for a big man.

[Richesly]

No, Wilt chamberlain is not overrated. Maybe he was ahead of his time, but put him in Jordan's era, It would be Wilt's era.

[jlauber]

You could make a case for SEVERAL of Wilt's seasons, but the biggest "mystery season" was the "what-if" of his 69-70 season.

For the record, he once again had a new coach, Joe Mullaney, and Mullaney's first order of business was to ask Wilt to become the focal point of the offense.

But before I continue with that season, there was an interesting aspect to Wilt's 68-69 season. He was traded to the Lakers before the start of the season, and his new coach, Butch Van Breda Kolf, had no idea how to use him. He had Wilt playing the high post, and he even BENCHED him at times.

It got so bad that SI ran article claiming that Wilt could no longer score. Wilt caught wind of the article, and the night before it hit the newstands, Chamberlain exploded with a 60 point game. He followed that up with a 66 point game (on 29-35 shooting) a few days later. In fact, over the course of 17 straight games, Wilt crushed the league, averaging 31.1 ppg in that span. Included were games of 30 on ROY and HOFer Elvin Hayes; 33 on Bob Rule (look him up...he had three straight outstanding seasons before he injured his knee), and even a 35 point game on Russell, which was his highest against Russell since his 46 point game in the '66 ECF's. BTW, the NBA was down to 112.3 ppg in that 68-69 season.

Of course, Van Breda Kolf, couldn't stand that. He was even quoted with this, "When we pass the ball to Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch." So, instead he preferred Baylor's shot-jacking in the playoffs, and Elgin responded with a 15.3 ppg .385 post-season, while Wilt was at 13.9 ppg on .545.

Back to the 69-70 season. Wilt roared out to a 32.2 ppg average in his first nine games, and on 60% shooting (along with 20 rpg). Included in those nine games, were games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43. He also battered rookie Kareem with a 25-20 game on 9-14 shooting. The 38 point game came against reigning MVP Wes Unseld. The 37 point game came against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle. And the 42 point game was against Rule.

Unfortunately, Wilt blew out his knee in that ninth game (in a game in which he had scored 33 points on 13-13 shooting), and would require surgery. And while he miraculously returned late, he was nowhere near 100%. Still, he hung game of 30 and 36 in leading LA back from a 3-1 deficit against the Suns. And, in the Finals, he averaged 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg., and shot an eye-popping .625.

BTW, who were some of Wilt's opposing centers in the '69 and '70 seasons?

In '69 there were Russell, Thurmond, Hayes, Unseld, Reed, Bellamy, Beaty, Rule, all very good to great players, as well as Boerwinkle, Unhoff, and Dierking...who were all decent centers.

In '70 he faced Reed, Unseld, Hayes, Bellamy, Thurmond, Rule, and Kareem...all very good to great players...as well as Counts, Dierking, Boerwinkle, and Dierking...all of whom were decent.

Of course we will never know if Wilt could have sustained that 32.2 ppg, .600, 20.0 rpg pace...but based on his 17 game streak in '69 (and the fact that in '68 he had the FOUR highest games in the NBA with games of 52, 53, 53, and 68 points), and those sensational nine games at the beginning of the 69-70 season, he was probably on his way to one of his best seasons ever.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Wilt Chamberlain in my opinion is the hardest player in which to put his abilities and accomplishmets in perspective. His stats are insane. He was probably the most dominant player ever. The competition duing is era wasn't physically able to compete with him so it is hard to measure his actual skill level. He under-acheived in the post season which wrecked his claim on the title G.O.A.T. to most people. The fact that a player that dominant wasn't able to translate that into championships in a league with that few teams begs the questions. Why?

With Wilt there are more questions than answers.

[magnax1]

There's also defensive schemes which included far less double teaming as well as the fact that as Fatal has pointed out, there were only 3 rotation players in 1962 who were over 6'9".
That's not true... Or even remotely close to true.
6-10 Bill Russell
7-1 Wilt
7-3 Halbrook
6-10 Phil Jordan and Darrall Imhoff (both played for the Knicks)
6-11 Ray Felix
7-0 Walters Duke
6-11 Walt Bellamy
So in reality, there were only 2 teams without a player 6'10" playing 15+ minutes a game. On top of the majority of teams in the league had centers starting above 6-10.
Also, comparing it to players like Wooldridge isn't fair either since
1-Wooldridge and the nuggets sucked, were awful on offense and just put up empty innefficient scoring numbers, compared to Wilt leading the league in shooting % in 61 and 63 (came close him 50 ppg season too)
2-Wilt scored 12 ppg more then the next closest guys in the league, and even pace adjusted to the year jordan averaged 37 he would average 37 ppg

[millwad]

Wilt's .506 FG% came in a league that shot .426. Elgin Baylor shot .428 and Jerry West shot .445 (and the year before that he shot .419)

In MJ's '87 season, the league shot .480. And in Kobe's '06 season, the league shot .454, but had an eFG% of .490.


Still comparing a center's FG% to two guard's FG%...:facepalm

Why don't you compare Wilt's FT% to them?:roll:

And to OP, yes, Wilt's season is overrated. Too understand how many shots Wilt really put up that season you can compare his FGA average to Michael Jordan's '87 season. In '87 MJ averaged the 2nd most FGA per game in league history and averaged 37 points per game and still Wilt in his 50 point season averaged 12 more FGA per game. And he also shot 17 FT's per game on terrible %.

[millwad]

That's not true... Or even remotely close to true.
6-10 Bill Russell
7-1 Wilt
7-3 Halbrook
6-10 Phil Jordan and Darrall Imhoff (both played for the Knicks)
6-11 Ray Felix
7-0 Walters Duke
6-11 Walt Bellamy


Well, Halbrook, Imhoff, Felix, Jordon (not Jordan), Dukes were pure crap in '62 so you've got Bellamy (4-time all-star and never on the top 10 MVP list) and Russell (who's listed at 6'9) as Wilt's competitors in '62.

[ShaqAttack3234]

That's not true... Or even remotely close to true.
6-10 Bill Russell
7-1 Wilt
7-3 Halbrook
6-10 Phil Jordan and Darrall Imhoff (both played for the Knicks)
6-11 Ray Felix
7-0 Walters Duke
6-11 Walt Bellamy
So in reality, there were only 2 teams without a player 6'10" playing 15+ minutes a game. On top of the majority of teams in the league had centers starting above 6-10.

I meant 20+ mpg.

Imhoff was close at 19.8
Jordan was correct at 28.9

Swede Halbrook played 14.2 mpg

Felix played 18.5

Dukes is correct as well at 24.6.

My mistake, should've said 4 other, wouldn't object to Imhoff either. But either way, the point stands, that's not many players.


Also, comparing it to players like Wooldridge isn't fair either since
1-Wooldridge and the nuggets sucked, were awful on offense and just put up empty innefficient scoring numbers, compared to Wilt leading the league in shooting % in 61 and 63 (came close him 50 ppg season too)

You completely missed the point which is how such a fast pace can increase your scoring numbers. And Woolridge actually wasn't inefficient. His TS% was 56.5%(much better than Wilt's) and his FG% was almost as good(49.8%)


2-Wilt scored 12 ppg more then the next closest guys in the league, and even pace adjusted to the year jordan averaged 37 he would average 37 ppg

In '62, Wilt averaged 35.38% of his team's shot attempts. That equals about 2531 FGA on the '87 Bulls, that'd also equal about 1092 free throw attempts if he shot the same amount free throws for every field goal attempt(of course, he might not considering there were no 3 to make 2s and 2 to make 1s in '62).

That's 39.4 ppg on 30.9 FGA and 13.3 FTA if he still played 48.5 mpg. Or 32.5 ppg on 25.5 FGA and 11 FTA in 40 mpg on Jordan's '87 Bulls.

[Psileas]

Not overrated at all. A PER of 31.8 in an astonishing 48.5 mpg, despite the high pace (PER is adjusted per minutes and pace) without even all stats being taken into account (add blocks, steals and TO's, and he'd probably be over 33.0) equals pretty much either the most dominant or, at worst, among the 4-5 most dominant individual seasons ever. Couple this with a very solid 49-31 team record and a very narrow defeat at the Eastern Finals to the 60-22 Celtics and...seriously...overrated? Maybe in the same sense that Jordan gets overrated by some people, when they claim he's "clearly" the GOAT, this may get overrated by the ones who may claim this is "clearly" the GOAT season. And these "ones" are not nearly as many as the Jordan ones, especially here.

Oh, scratch that, I just saw who the thread maker is.

[PTB Fan]

I wouldn't say so. Wilt's ability to score was admirable as he was a high volume, efficient, dominant with nice arsenal of moves. My only problem with Wilt is his finesse play.

While finesse isn't bad, it wouldn't have been bad all if he relied more on his power because very few were capable to keep him from dominating. In his first seven years, he established as a great scorer which he truly was (i have him as the 3rd top scorer ever)

Won 7 scoring titles and had nice stats versus elite teams. However, he was not as efficient as other, his scoring actually hurt his team mates and he was not passing well which leads to the opinion of him being a ball hog.

If he played today, with good minutes (let's say 40), i can see him scoring like 30-35 points because a)the center position is weak, b)his abilities would in my opinion translate well and c)he'd be needed to require on his power where he was superior to most.

[Sarcastic]

If anything, it's underrated. Already on the first page we have people trying to discredit it (for their personal agendas), and there will be more to come.

[jlauber]

When Wilt came into the NBA in the 59-60 season, the NBA scoring record was 29.2 ppg; the NBA rebounding record was 23.0 rpg (Russell); and the NBA FG% record was .490.

In his 14 seasons, he SHATTERED all of those marks, and some several times over. He had scoring seasons of 44.8 ppg and 50.4 ppg, and won those titles by margins of +10.8 ppg and +18.8 ppg. In fact, he averaged 40 ppg over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED. Furthermore, the highest "non-Wilt" full season scoring mark was Rick Barry's 35.6 ppg in '67 (and even Barry acknowledged that he won it because Wilt didn't want to win it.)

He won ELEVEN rebounding titles in his 14 years in the league, and some by nearly FIVE per game. He faced Russell in 142 H2H games, and outrebounded him by an average of 28.7 rpg to 23.7 rpg. He even had one game which he outrebounded Russell by a 55-19 margin. He had seasons of 27.0 and 27.2 rpg, and he also had post-seasons of 29.1 rpg and even 30.2 rpg. He even LED the NBA in rebounding in his LAST season, and then averaged 22.5 rpg in 17 post-season games that year...which was the LAST time any player ever averaged 20+ in the post-season (and in fact, Kareem's 17.7 rpg in '76-77 is the next greatest mark since.)

He shattered the FG% mark in '61, '63, '66, '67, and '73. He has the top-two FG% seasons in NBA history, and three of the top-5...all achieved in leagues that shot between .410 thru .456. He outshot his nearest competitor's by .157 and .162, and he outshot the league average by as much as .244 and .271 (as well as consistently outshooting the league average by around 100 points almost every season in which he played.)

Then Wilt retired after the 72-73 season...and no one has challenged any of the above since. Why? And why ONLY Wilt?

[swi7ch]

jordan would average more in that era

[jlauber]

Still comparing a center's FG% to two guard's FG%...:facepalm

Why don't you compare Wilt's FT% to them?:roll:

And to OP, yes, Wilt's season is overrated. Too understand how many shots Wilt really put up that season you can compare his FGA average to Michael Jordan's '87 season. In '87 MJ averaged the 2nd most FGA per game in league history and averaged 37 points per game and still Wilt in his 50 point season averaged 12 more FGA per game. And he also shot 17 FT's per game on terrible %.

I wasn't comparing Wilt's FG% to a guard and forward. I was merely pointing out that players like Baylor, who would have a .486 season later in the 60's, and West, who would have a .514 mark later in the decade, were shooting WAY worse in the early 60's...which puts Wilt's .506 FG% into it's proper perspective. As ALWAYS, Wilt was outshooting the entire league by a HUGE margin.

AND, put Wilt's .506, in a league that shot .426, into MJ's '87 season, in which the entire league shot .480...and it would translate to about .570. And, MJ's '87 NBA averaged 109.9 ppg, which was only marginally behind Wilt's 118.8 ppg in '62. Even using basic math, and Wilt's '62 season would have been about 42 ppg in '87 (and that would be before adjusting his FG%...which would have raised his scoring to about 46 ppg.)

BTW, Wilt shot .613 from the line in that 61-62 season..and his 835 MADE FTs is the second greatest season of all-time (just behind West's 840 mark in '65.)

[jlauber]

If anything, it's underrated. Already on the first page we have people trying to discredit it (for their personal agendas), and there will be more to come.

You hit the nail on the head. The "anti-Wilt" clan will go to any length to disparage his career. I always find it fascinating that Wilt gets ripped for his "decline" in the post-season...when he averaged 33 ppg and 27 rpg, and on .510 shooting (in leagues that shot between .410 to .441) in his first seven years in the league. And that he averaged 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, and shot .518 (again, in league's that shot between .410 to .446) in his first nine years in the league.

And yet, you can't find any other player who ever had even ONE 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, .518 post-season.

And of course the Wilt detractors will NEVER bring up the fact that Wilt DRAMATICALLY reduced his OPPOSING center's numbers in his post-season career, either.

And Wilt faced a HOF center in 99 of his 160 post-season games along the way.

[Bigsmoke]

That's not true... Or even remotely close to true.
7-3 Halbrook
6-10 Phil Jordan and Darrall Imhoff (both played for the Knicks)
6-11 Ray Felix
7-0 Walters Duke
6-11 Walt Bellamy
[LIST=1]


those guys were scrubs though

[DCL]

i don't care what era it is.

50ppg is simply ridiculous.

[Droid101]

I've posted this a billion times before, but it bears repeating.

The game back then was like... 140 possessions per game! That's insane. If there were that many possessions these days, everyone's numbers would be inflated (see Suns and Golden State scoring compared to say, the Blazers).

If you normalize for possessions, here are the best scoring seasons ever (Wilt's doesn't even make the cut):

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/01/28/top-scoring-rate-seasons-in-nba-history/

http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/top-scoring-rates-regular-season.jpg


Unfortunately, Basketball-Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/) doesn’t have a pace-adjusted scoring metric. I normalize most of my stats (http://elgee35.wordpress.com/2010/12/19/basketball-is-a-possession-game/) to an estimated 75 possessions played, which for points produces a “scoring rate,” per se. For instance, Wilt Chamberlain averaged over 50 points per game in 1962 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html). But he played more than 130 possessions a game using the simple method of pace estimation (http://elgee35.wordpress.com/2010/12/28/estimating-pace-before-1974/). That comes out to about 28.1 pts/75, not enough to make the cut here.

[JGXEN]

Lisa Leslie>Wilt Chamberlain

[D-Wade316]

Not overrated at all. A PER of 31.8 in an astonishing 48.5 mpg, despite the high pace (PER is adjusted per minutes and pace) without even all stats being taken into account (add blocks, steals and TO's, and he'd probably be over 33.0) equals pretty much either the most dominant or, at worst, among the 4-5 most dominant individual seasons ever. Couple this with a very solid 49-31 team record and a very narrow defeat at the Eastern Finals to the 60-22 Celtics and...seriously...overrated? Maybe in the same sense that Jordan gets overrated by some people, when they claim he's "clearly" the GOAT, this may get overrated by the ones who may claim this is "clearly" the GOAT season. And these "ones" are not nearly as many as the Jordan ones, especially here.

Oh, scratch that, I just saw who the thread maker is.
If Chamberlain had those numbers today, his PER would be well over 35.0 since the high pace of that era doesn't allow for a high PER which some in today's era have done(T-Mac, Wade, Lebron, CP3, Shaq)

[D-Wade316]

I've posted this a billion times before, but it bears repeating.

The game back then was like... 140 possessions per game! That's insane. If there were that many possessions these days, everyone's numbers would be inflated (see Suns and Golden State scoring compared to say, the Blazers).

If you normalize for possessions, here are the best scoring seasons ever (Wilt's doesn't even make the cut):

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/01/28/top-scoring-rate-seasons-in-nba-history/

http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/top-scoring-rates-regular-season.jpg
:facepalm

It completely undervalues scoring if a player plays in a high paced team, and overvalues scoring if a player plays for a slow paced team. The thing you just posted was destroyed months ago. I can't remember what thread that was.

[Droid101]

:facepalm

It completely undervalues scoring if a player plays in a high paced team, and overvalues scoring if a player plays for a slow paced team. The thing you just posted was destroyed months ago. I can't remember what thread that was.
It was destroyed because you think so? Or are you just mad Dwyane "sidekick" Wade isn't on the list enough?

[D-Wade316]

It was destroyed because you think so? Or are you just mad Dwyane "sidekick" Wade isn't on the list enough?
Yep. It was destroyed. I just can't remember what thread that was.

:no: I don't care about Wade's rank in the list.

[JMT]

If anything, it's underrated. Already on the first page we have people trying to discredit it (for their personal agendas), and there will be more to come.

Repped

[Asukal]

AND, put Wilt's .506, in a league that shot .426, into MJ's '87 season, in which the entire league shot .480...and it would translate to about .570.

Wilt's 50ppg season is not overrated because it takes insane amounts of energy to be able to play 48mpg and put up so many shots. But once again you show how little you understand the game, just because league average fg% went up it automatically means Wilt will also magically get better and shoot better if you put him in 87? League average usually affects the majority of players, and as far as we know the league is full of role players, some all stars, and very few superstars. So NO Wilt will not get better, there's a ceiling for everybody even for Wilt. :facepalm

[bizil]

If averaging a triple double in a season like Big O or Wilt scoring 50.4 points in a year was easy then EVERYBODY WOULD HAVE BEEN DOING IT! That right there tells me it's not overrated. I think Big O, Wilt, West, Baylor, and Russell were all ahead of their time. Wilt would be a beast today and the best center in the L. Some guys like Ruth, Mays, Ali, Jim Brown, and Wilt are so far ahead of their time that they would be great in any era. If anything the scrubs back in the day can't transcend eras! lol But not a stud like Wilt. He wouldn't average 50 today because of the evolution of athlete. But he would be dominate and a top 1-2 player in the L.

[Psileas]

Wilt's 50ppg season is not overrated because it takes insane amounts of energy to be able to play 48mpg and put up so many shots. But once again you show how little you understand the game, just because league average fg% went up it automatically means Wilt will also magically get better and shoot better if you put him in 87? League average usually affects the majority of players, and as far as we know the league is full of role players, some all stars, and very few superstars. So NO Wilt will not get better, there's a ceiling for everybody even for Wilt. :facepalm

So, you're claiming that Wilt wouldn't be able to benefit from the advancements of the game 25 years later? Not that he'd need to get any better to dominate, obviously, but what's the logic behind thinking he wouldn't?
By the way, Wilt wouldn't need to get better (=more skilled) to shoot better, either. He'd just need to take more efficient shots and there's no reason to think he wouldn't, in a league with slower and more careful offenses and less random, ill-advised shots taken (and with 39.5 shots per game, it's safe to assume he took his share of this type of shots).

[Asukal]

So, you're claiming that Wilt wouldn't be able to benefit from the advancements of the game 25 years later? Not that he'd need to get any better to dominate, obviously, but what's the logic behind thinking he wouldn't?
By the way, Wilt wouldn't need to get better (=more skilled) to shoot better, either. He'd just need to take more efficient shots and there's no reason to think he wouldn't, in a league with slower and more careful offenses and less random, ill-advised shots taken (and with 39.5 shots per game, it's safe to assume he took his share of this type of shots).

You see that's where guys like you fail to understand something so simple. I didn't say Wilt will not dominate in the 80s, he would be great in any era. What I was disputing was Jlauber's mindset of robotic thinking, where if Wilt shot 50% in a 42% era, he'd AUTOMATICALLY shoot 57% in a 48% era. Basketball is not just about stats, there's a lot of other factors involved. What advancements in the game would Wilt benefit from 25 years later?

[KingBeasley08]

are you kidding me :oldlol:

easily overrated. niggah didnt give his teamates the ball and then blame falls on them when he lost in the playoffs

best part is that in another season, he purposely averaged 10 assists a game even though it didn't help his team :roll:

biggest stat padder in nba history

[millwad]

I wasn't comparing Wilt's FG% to a guard and forward. I was merely pointing out that players like Baylor, who would have a .486 season later in the 60's, and West, who would have a .514 mark later in the decade, were shooting WAY worse in the early 60's...which puts Wilt's .506 FG% into it's proper perspective. As ALWAYS, Wilt was outshooting the entire league by a HUGE margin.

That was exactly what you did and you've done it before as well and still, pointing out the FG% of guards and forwards in comparison with a center will always be a showcase of ignorance.

I will never accept the excuses you tried to convince us about regarding the lower FG% in the 50's and 60's. Stuff like the ball being of bad quality, the arenas being cold and yadi yadi..

If that would have been the case, then we wouldn't have had great FT-shooters like West back in the days. The same West who had better FG% than Kobe Bryant as an average.. Oscar as well..

I'm convinced that FG% back in the days had to do with the players actual skillset and physical dominance rather than the ball being less developed or the arenas being cold.. Guys like Oscar, West and Wilt had no problems with their FG%. Sure, Wilt dropped in the playoffs regarding both scoring and FG% but he was still shooting with better % than his competitors.

Defensive schemes and double and triple teams in later era's can't even be compared to one's in Wilt's era. There's plenty of footage of Wilt being guarded single-handedly, can you imagine a guy like Wilt being guarded single-handedly in later eras? Don't think so. And NO, I don't claim that he never was double or triple team'd, just not to the extent as he would have been in later eras.

And judging by what you just wrote, do you actually mean that the defense got weaker later in to the 60's? Seriously? Wow.. Is that how you explain West's and Baylor's seasons where they shot with better FG%...



AND, put Wilt's .506, in a league that shot .426, into MJ's '87 season, in which the entire league shot .480...and it would translate to about .570. And, MJ's '87 NBA averaged 109.9 ppg, which was only marginally behind Wilt's 118.8 ppg in '62. Even using basic math, and Wilt's '62 season would have been about 42 ppg in '87 (and that would be before adjusting his FG%...which would have raised his scoring to about 46 ppg.)

Still, Jlauber, it wouldn't translate "to about .570", that's nonsense. It's nonsense to actually claim that it got EASIER to score in the 80's compared to the 60's, especially considering the fact that the teams scored more per game compared to the 80's. And yes, that has to do with FGA but to actually blame the higher FG%-average on worse defense is just silly. And yes, now you're gonna reply with Kareem shooting with higher FG% later in his career, yadi yadi, but fact still remains that players gets smarter and know their limits better late in their career and having Magic by his side helped his FG% ALOT..



BTW, Wilt shot .613 from the line in that 61-62 season..and his 835 MADE FTs is the second greatest season of all-time (just behind West's 840 mark in '65.)

The same season he missed the most FT's in one season by one player in league history.

[Sarcastic]

^^^
Personal agenda

[Inception28]

His best season was 66-67, yet people believe his 50 ppg season was his best. Wilt didn't even win the MVP when he averaged 50 ppg a game.

[Pointguard]

My position has always been that people miss several marks about the season.

1. That the energy is the biggest factor. Energy is the key to everything. Its the reason why people level off in rebounding, blocking shots, why so very few people can reach 30ppg (this is true of every decade -it

[D-Wade316]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]My position has always been that people miss several marks about the season.

1. That the energy is the biggest factor. Energy is the key to everything. Its the reason why people level off in rebounding, blocking shots, why so very few people can reach 30ppg (this is true of every decade -it

[Asukal]

Wilt, today would not only be Shaq among current centers he would also be John Wall among centers. He would be the only natural scorer among centers, he would be the most athletic, longest, most skilled, best rebounder, best blocker, best passer, and this is without the modern conveniences that would enhance his explosion, post game, foul shooting and shooting. But the real catch is that he with his speed in ’62 he would have been guarded by wings or points in today’s games so not even 6’8 players.

Wow so now Wilt was as fast as a Derrick Rose? :hammerhead:

[jlauber]

My position has always been that people miss several marks about the season.

1. That the energy is the biggest factor. Energy is the key to everything. Its the reason why people level off in rebounding, blocking shots, why so very few people can reach 30ppg (this is true of every decade -it’s a natural leveling point of greats) reach 16 rebounds, get over 5 blocks per game. If you don't have the fuel you can't approach these phenomenal feats. Even specialist have trouble breaking these thresholds. Seemingly, if grown athletic men on a team with basic defensive skills guard skilled scorers a common threshold would be reached by even different types of great scorers (i.e. Shaq, Gervin, Dantley, Durant, Lebron, Kobe).

2. He didn’t neglect his other responsibilities, in fact they too were at crazy levels too. He had 76 bear units of rebounds and points (very close to 25% higher than the next greatest year by a center Kareem? McAdoo?). Can you imagine a guy far beyond Rodman’s best rebounding year and Jordan’s best scoring combined into one person. In fact they weren’t even close to Wilt’s numbers. Yet you remember how active those two were those years? And yet Chamberlain had games where he had at least 9 blocks as well. His activity level was astonishing.

3. The psychological insistence (in this aspect he was much stronger than other players) to surpass the previous records was bizarre over 80 games. Unlike anything before or after. Obviously pace helped. But that usually saps people’s energy as well. The natural tendency is after separation is huge like 5% is to slow it down.

4. His separation from the pack was unreal. All things are relative. Pure science there – not up for debate. People rarely ever go 40% before previous records and then hang out there. 30ppg is still a great threshold of great scorers – yet if Wilt has a regular threshold night he has to have 70 the next night. You think of the other unstoppable scorers at center only Kareem got separation in one year – and it was no where near Wilt’s level. Dwight Howard has no comp at center and he’s not even in the scoring race.
5. His focus was unbelievable. If he looses focus he would be a 35ppg scorer easily. You fight boredom, lack of true comp and the bully complex all the time.

6. He takes on an incredible scoring burden – and is second in FG% at a rate where he was going to be best person taking a shot as well.

7. The way the game was played it should have favored smaller players not bigger players.

Wilt, today would not only be Shaq among current centers he would also be John Wall among centers. He would be the only natural scorer among centers, he would be the most athletic, longest, most skilled, best rebounder, best blocker, best passer, and this is without the modern conveniences that would enhance his explosion, post game, foul shooting and shooting. But the real catch is that he with his speed in ’62 he would have been guarded by wings or points in today’s games so not even 6’8 players.

Well said. Chamberlain's '62 season was not just about the pure numbers, but, the fact that he was LIGHT YEARS ahead of his peers. And, he took the same basic LAST PLACE roster that he inherited in his rookie season, to a 49-31 record. THEN, he single-handedly carried them past Syracuse in the first round, with an epic game five, in a best-of-five series, of 56 points and 35 rebounds. And MIRACULOUSLY, he then carried them to a game seven, two point loss against Russell's 60-20 Celtics, and their SEVEN HOFers (and HOF coach...something Wilt seldom had.) And just how much help did he get in those playoffs from his teammates? They collectively shot .354.

The Wilt detractors love to rip Chamberlain's 62-63 season, too. His Warriors only went 31-49, BUT, that was arguably the worst roster in NBA history. SIXTEEN different players, and his BEST teammate, Tom Meschery, averaged 16 ppg, 9.8 rpg, and shot .425. The fact was, Meschery would have been at the very far end of the Celtic bench that season (Boston had NINE HOFers that season.)

The Warriors lousy record that season was deceptive, too. They lost 35 games by single digits, and were only involved in eight games of 20+ (going 4-4.) Their total differential was only -2.1 ppg. And here was Wilt, playing 47.6 mpg, averaging 44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, even 3.4 apg, and shooting a then-record .528 from the field. In fact, Wilt LED the NBA in FIFTEEN of the 22 statistical categories (and had their been other categories, like offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, rebound percentage, blocked shots, etc, it would have been even more.) He even ran away with Win Shares (20.9 on a team that won 31 games...or, he was directly responsible for about 70% of his team's wins.) And his PER of 31.8 is an all-time record. And while the Warriors only went 1-8 against Russell's Celtics, six of the games were very close, and all Wilt did was outrebound Russell in those games, and outscored him by a 38-14 margin, per game. And how much help did he get from his teammates that season? They collectively shot .412, which would have been way below the worst team in the league (.427...surprisingly, Boston.)

And while the "anti-Wilt" clan loves to slap Chamberlain's team record in 62-63, they NEVER bring up the fact that Wilt then took that same cast of clowns to a 48-32 record the very next season, and a trip to the Finals, where they lost two games in the waning seconds, in losing the series, 4-1, against Russell's Celtics, and their EIGHT HOFers. And all Wilt did in that series was average 29 ppg, 27 rpg, and shoot .517. And that came after he single-handedly carried the Warriors past the Hawks in the previous round, with a 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, .559 series, which included a game seven of 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 12 blocks.

And how about the next season, when a very sick Wilt was traded to the Sixers at mid-season? (BTW, the NBA widened the lane before the start of the season...and Wilt was averaging 39 ppg at mid-season when he was traded.) He came to a Philly team that had been 34-46 the year before, and while they would only finish 40-40 in 64-65, Wilt then led them to a 3-1 romp over Oscar's 48-32 Royals, and into the ECF's, where they would face the 62-18 Celtics, which was their best record in their "dynasty" run. Amazingly, Philly battled Boston down to the very last play of game seven, losing 110-109 when "Havlicek stole the ball." How did Wilt "the choker" fare in that game? 30 points, on 12-15 shooting (80% for those that need assistance), and with 32 rebounds. In fact, he scored six of Philadephia's last eight points, (including 2-2 from the line, and a dunk over Russell with five seconds left.) For the series, Wilt, who constantly is criticized for his "decline" in the post-season, put up a 30 ppg, 31 rpg seven game series.

Chamberlain's 65-66 season also has to rank among the greatest ever. He LED the NBA in scoring, at 33.5 ppg; he LED the NBA in rebounding, at 24.6 rpg; and he LED the NBA in FG%, at .540 (which was a record at the time.) He even found time to hand out 5.2 apg. Here again, the "anti-Chamberlain" gang NEVER bring up this fact...that Wilt LED his team to the BEST RECORD in the league that season, too. However, they WILL point out that Wilt's Sixers were wiped out by Boston in the ECF's, 4-1. BUT, they won't mention that all Wilt did in that series was average 28 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509 from the field, including a 46-34 performance in the clinching game five loss. How about Wilt's teammates? They collectively shot .352. Yet, it is WILT, who gets the lion's share of the blame.

And even the most ardent of those that rip Chamberlain have to acknowledge his '66-67 season as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, of all-time. He absolutely OBLITERATED the NBA that season. 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, and an eye-popping .683 FG%. He then pounded the Royals, then Russell, and then Thurmond in the playoffs and Finals. His dominated Russell in every facet of the game, and for once, his teammates finally matched Russell's. The result? A 4-1 blowout of the eight-time defending champs, and a near sweep (losing game four in Boston by four points.)

And that game five was particularly interesting. In his game five in the '66 ECF's, Wilt did all he could, hanging that 46 point (on 19-34 shooting), 34 rebound game against Russell, albeit, in a losing effort. Now, how did Russell fare in the '67 ECF's, when he was faced with the exact same circumstances? In that game five, Russell scored a meager four points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Meanwhile, Chamberlain poured in 29 points (22 in the first half when the game was still in doubt), on 10-16 shooting, with 13 assists, and a staggering 36 rebounds. For those that claim that Russell had Wilt's "number" in the post-season...why couldn't Russell step up in that clinching game five loss, when it was obvious his teammates needed him to?

In Wilt's first seven years in the league, he averaged about 40 ppg, 25 rpg, and on about .520 shooting (in league's that shot between .410 to .441.) And yet he is criticized for not winning a title in those years. However, the reality was, he had inept rosters, and mostly incompetent coaching. And how about these telling numbers...in those six post-seasons (his team was so bad in '63 that they didn't make the playoffs), his teammates collectively shot .382, .380, .354, .352, .352, and a mind-numbing .332. And yet, he somehow got them to two game seven's against the greatest dynasty in major professional sports history, losing them by 2 and 1 point, and a Finals in another year.

But, the Chamberlain critics merely point out that he was 0-7 in rings in those seven years, and that he was a "stats-padding" "loser" who "choked" in the post-season.

[B]

I've posted this a billion times before, but it bears repeating.

The game back then was like... 140 possessions per game! That's insane. If there were that many possessions these days, everyone's numbers would be inflated (see Suns and Golden State scoring compared to say, the Blazers).

If you normalize for possessions, here are the best scoring seasons ever (Wilt's doesn't even make the cut):

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/01/28/top-scoring-rate-seasons-in-nba-history/

http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/top-scoring-rates-regular-season.jpgInteresting.

[Psileas]

You see that's where guys like you fail to understand something so simple. I didn't say Wilt will not dominate in the 80s, he would be great in any era. What I was disputing was Jlauber's mindset of robotic thinking, where if Wilt shot 50% in a 42% era, he'd AUTOMATICALLY shoot 57% in a 48% era. Basketball is not just about stats, there's a lot of other factors involved. What advancements in the game would Wilt benefit from 25 years later?

Guys "like me" are not the ones who blindly adjust stats, positively or negatively. I don't consider it correct to adjust FG%'s because of how the league shot, but I consider it equally wrong to try to adjust Wilt's scoring with the logic Droid's card demonstrates. I do believe though that Wilt would shoot better than 51% had he played in the 80's, because he'd have cut down a lot of badly taken shots that he took in the early 60's. How do you think Wilt suddenly exploded from 54% to 68% FG shooting in a single season? He cut down needless shots by a lot.
BTW, while I'm not trying to predict Wilt's FG%, I don't consider 57% to be any stretch, especially in the 80's, figures that even a few non-centers could reach back then. Any physical, strong guy with some offensive awareness would be able to get there (Gilmore, Barkley, Dawkins), except if he wanted to pad his offensive rebounding, a la Moses Malone.

What advancements in the game would Wilt benefit from 25 years later? Is this a rhetoric question, implying that Wilt wouldn't have anything to benefit from regardless of era (hey, that's nice of you to think of Wilt that highly, but I still disagree!)? Here's a very simple example: He'd benefit by getting better passes from teammates.

[Rooster]

Overrated. When Wilt came to the league, there were only a couple of players who were 6-10 and Wilt was strong athletic 7 footer. He put all those numbers because he was a stat padder. I think it's best to measure his numbers on what he did in the playoffs with some capable defenders. Nonetheless, he was still a great player.

[jlauber]

Guys "like me" are not the ones who blindly adjust stats, positively or negatively. I don't consider it correct to adjust FG%'s because of how the league shot, but I consider it equally wrong to try to adjust Wilt's scoring with the logic Droid's card demonstrates. I do believe though that Wilt would shoot better than 51% had he played in the 80's, because he'd have cut down a lot of badly taken shots that he took in the early 60's. How do you think Wilt suddenly exploded from 54% to 68% FG shooting in a single season? He cut down needless shots by a lot.
BTW, while I'm not trying to predict Wilt's FG%, I don't consider 57% to be any stretch, especially in the 80's, figures that even a few non-centers could reach back then. Any physical, strong guy with some offensive awareness would be able to get there (Gilmore, Barkley, Dawkins), except if he wanted to pad his offensive rebounding, a la Moses Malone.

What advancements in the game would Wilt benefit from 25 years later? Is this a rhetoric question, implying that Wilt wouldn't have anything to benefit from regardless of era (hey, that's nice of you to think of Wilt that highly, but I still disagree!)? Here's a very simple example: He'd benefit by getting better passes from teammates.

I have posted this many times before, but shooting in the 80's was off the charts. Kareem, in his absolute prime, had FG%'s of .539, .529, .518, and .513 in the 70's...and yet, in the first eight years of the 80's, and approaching 40, he shot .564 or better, including .604 and .599 (at age 37.) Gilmore is an even more glaring example. He had a season in the 70's, and in his prime, of 18.6 ppg and on .522 shooting. His high season in the 70's was .575...and yet, in the 80's he exploded for SIX straight seasons of .600+ including seasons of 17.9 ppg on .670 and 18.5 ppg on .652. Hell, at age 35 he put up a 19.1 ppg .623 season.

Then, take a look at the other side of the coin. Centers who came into the league in the 80's, and played into the 90's. Hakeem had his BEST FG% season in his ROOKIE year, at .534...and not coincidently, in the 84-85 season, which was an all-time NBA record of .492. He had his 4th best season the very next year, too. Ewing had his three highest FG% seasons from 87-88 thru 89-90, and then declined to seasons of under 50% in the 90's. Even David Robinson, who came into the league in 89-90, had his third best season in his rookie year, and then followed it up with his two best seasons the very next two years. And then, a slow decline.

And, in reality, the shooting explosion began in the 78-79 season, when the NBA jumped from .469 in 77-78 to .485 in 78-79. Moses had his five greatest seasons from '79 thur '83.

Meanwhile, the greats of the 60's, player-for-player, shot much worse in the early 60's, and considerably better as they progressed. Havlicek played eight seasons in both decades of the 60's and 70's, and all eight in the 70's were better than his best in the 60's. Hell, he even shot .399 one season in the early 60's. Baylor had a .401 season and West had a .419 season. Barry averaged 35.6 ppg on .451 shooting in '67, and 30.6 ppg on .464 shooting in '75.

Players like Unseld, Hayes, and Lanier...MUCH better in the late 70's than in the late 60's or early 70's.

Of course, Wilt himself, pretty much shot straight up on the graph. He had his only sub- .500 season in his rookie year, and after that he dramatically rose almost every single season. He would break the FG% record in '61, '63, '66, '67, and then in his final season in '73.

So, only a complete idiot would claim that Wilt would not have shot better (and CONSIDERABLY better BTW) in the 80's.

[G.O.A.T]

When Wilt came to the league, there were only a couple of players who were 6-10 and Wilt was strong athletic 7 footer.

Actually when Wilt was a rookie five of the other seven teams had a player 6'11" or taller in their line-up and the ones that didn't had Bill Russell (6'10" 225) and Wayne Embry (6'8" 275) who were the two toughest players for Wilt to go against in his early years.

[jlauber]

Overrated. When Wilt came to the league, there were only a couple of players who were 6-10 and Wilt was strong athletic 7 footer. He put all those numbers because he was a stat padder. I think it's best to measure his numbers on what he did in the playoffs with some capable defenders. Nonetheless, he was still a great player.

In his first six post-seasons, covering seven years, all Wilt did was average 32 ppg, 27 rpg, and shoot .510 (in leagues that shot about .430 on average.) In his first eight post-seasons, covering nine years, he could only average 29 ppg, 27 rpg 5 apg, and shoot .520 (in leagues that averaged about .435 shooting.)

In his last seven years, and with decent surrounding personnel, his scoring dropped considerably, but even then he was dominating his peers. He even battled a statistically prime Kareem to a statistical draw in their '71 playoff H2H...and that was accomplished only a year after major knee surgery, and at age 34. Then, while being outscored by Kareem in the '72 WCF's, by virtually EVERY account, Wilt outplayed Kareem. He held Kareem, who had shot .574 during the regular season, to .457 shooting, which included .414 over the course of the last four games of that series.

In Wilt's LAST season, he held a PRIME Kareem to 29 ppg on .450 shooting in their six regular season H2H's...while scoring 11 ppg on .737 himself. He even outscored Kareem in one game that year, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-15 to 10-27.

And we all know that Kareem went on to absolutely torch the greats of the 80's, even at age 38.

[millwad]

Actually when Wilt was a rookie five of the other seven teams had a player 6'11" or taller in their line-up and the ones that didn't had Bill Russell (6'10" 225) and Wayne Embry (6'8" 275) who were the two toughest players for Wilt to go against in his early years.

A great majority of those tall guys were scrubs. And as you said, Embry was 6'8, Chamberlain was 7'1...

[jlauber]

A great majority of those tall guys were scrubs. And as you said, Embry was 6'8, Chamberlain was 7'1...

Best rebounder of the 90's? 6-8 Dennis Rodman. Best defensive CENTER of the 00's? 6-7 Ben Wallace. Best rebounder in 2011? 6-9 Kevin Love. Hell the Rockets started 6-6 Chuck Hayes, and his 3ft range, in many games last season.

[Asukal]

What advancements in the game would Wilt benefit from 25 years later? Is this a rhetoric question, implying that Wilt wouldn't have anything to benefit from regardless of era (hey, that's nice of you to think of Wilt that highly, but I still disagree!)? Here's a very simple example: He'd benefit by getting better passes from teammates.

See? Again you automatically assume I said Wilt would not benefit from anything in other eras just like you assumed I implied Wilt would shoot a horrible FG% in the 80s which I didn't at all. My problem with you Wilt fans are you'd like us younger people to respect him yet you want us to believe Wilt is superman at the same time which if you do an in depth analysis, he isn't. I guess stans are stans no matter what era their hero played in. :facepalm

[millwad]

Best rebounder of the 90's? 6-8 Dennis Rodman. Best defensive CENTER of the 00's? 6-7 Ben Wallace. Best rebounder in 2011? 6-9 Kevin Love. Hell the Rockets started 6-6 Chuck Hayes, and his 3ft range, in many games last season.

The Rockets started Chuck Hayes because Yao was injured and Hayes is one of the worst starting centers in the league. And still, you fail to consider the fact that we have 30 NBA teams today compared to 8 when Wilt joined the league which gives us 150 starters in total compared to 40 when Wilt joined the league. If we'd just fill 8 rosters today every team would almost look all-star like.

Best rebounders of the 90's and 2011 still couldn't grab as many rebounds per game as what 6-5 Baylor did in '61.

Ben Wallace height doesn't tell the whole truth, the man got long arms and great leaping ability and he is crazy strong.

And that wasn't my point really, my point was that people point out that height also existed when Wilt entered the league too. Although players in general were shorter the league also had some taller players as well, my point was that those guy's were scrubs.

These guys were 6'10 or taller when Wilt joined the league:
Ray Felix = SCRUB
Chuck Share = Doesn't even have any stats from that season
Walter Dukes = A center who made 36% of his FGA..
Phil Jordon = Another center who even couldn't crack the 40% mark..


That's 4 players and 1 one of them didn't even have any stats recorded from that year which tells alot about the guy as a player. And Felix was a scrub and Jordon and Dukes were both outshot by their fellow guards which tells alot about their scoring skills.

[Cangri]

Best rebounder of the 90's? 6-8 Dennis Rodman. Best defensive CENTER of the 00's? 6-7 Ben Wallace. Best rebounder in 2011? 6-9 Kevin Love. Hell the Rockets started 6-6 Chuck Hayes, and his 3ft range, in many games last season.
Most centers back then were scrubs and you know it. Today's centers are more skilled and more conditioned than back then.

But you are right about Kevin Love, he's basically like Wilt, a statpadder.

Guess Wilt could statpad in today's league like he did back then, although he wouldn't have anything close to those numbers he put.

[PHILA]

Chuck Hayes, and his 3ft range, in many games last season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_4LyUaNvrI#t=7m9s


Hayes is much like Embry in that despite their height, a powerful base & low center of gravity allows them to hold their own vs taller bigs in the paint. Big Wayne Embry also had an old school sweeping hook and fine touch on the baseline.


The Big O: my life, my times, my game - Oscar Robertson

http://i.imgur.com/3U5CG.png


http://i.imgur.com/5m2pX.jpg

[jlauber]

Wilt was offensively DOMINATING the NBA from the mid-60's thru the beginning of the 69-70 season, and against a TON of HOF centers, and 6-11 and 7-0+ centers in that period, too.

Once again, just take a look at what he did in the 68-69 season. 20.5 ppg, 21.1 rpg, and .583 from the field. BUT, when he was criticized for his lack of scoring at the mid-way point in the season, he exploded in 17 straight games, averaging 31.1 ppg. In those 17 games, he hung 30 on ROY Elvin Hayes, 33 on Bob Rule (who was an exceptional player before he was injured a couple of years later), 35 against Russell, 60 against Dierking, and 66 on Jim Fox.

Then, at the beginning of the '70 season, he was averaging 32.2 ppg on 60% shooting before he shredded his knee in the ninth game. Included in those nine games were games of 37 against tough 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle, 38 against HOFer (and reigning league MVP) Wes Unseld, and 42 against Rule. Oh, and he trashed Kareem in their very first H2H with a 25-20 game on 9-14 shooting.

Take a look at the rosters and centers in those two years. By the 69-70 season, in a 14 team league, there were 11 players of 6-11+, and seven of 7-0+ (including Wilt.) And, in those two years, Wilt faced players like Unseld, Hayes, Thurmond, Bellamy, Reed, Russell, and Kareem, all in the HOF..as well as very good centers like Rule and Beaty...and decent one's like Boerwinkle, Dierking, and Imhoff.

[jlauber]

Of course the "anti-Wilt" clan never bring up these facts...

A PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain had THREE games of 50+ against Reed, and several more in the 40's, with a high game of 58. He also had THREE games of 60+ against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, which included a SEASON of 55 ppg against him, with a HIGH game of 73 points. And, while a "scoring" Wilt only played in about a dozen games against 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond, he put up several of 30+, including one game in which he trashed Nate by a 45-13 margin. Even after his "scoring" seasons, he could still pound Thurmond. In an early season game in the 66-67 season, in which he was facilitating the ball in the first half, his coach told him at halftime to take it to Thurmond in the second half. Wilt exploded for 24 2nd half points, en route to a 30 point, 26 rebound, 12 block game.

And Wilt hung those two 60+ point games in his 68-69 season, when he hardly even shot the ball that season (not to mention that he had four games of 52, 53, 53, and 68 the year before in the 67-68 season.)

Then there was the fact that Wilt not only AVERAGED 28.7 ppg (along with 28.7 rpg) in his 142 H2H games against Russell, but he had 24 of 40+ against him, including FIVE of 50+ and a high game of 62.

Kareem played in the same league with Wilt for four seasons, and faced Reed, Bellamy, and Thurmond many times (as well as the two centers that Chamberlain abused in his two 60+ point games in the '69 season), and yet, he didn't approach the domination of those guys that Wilt murdered them with. In fact, Kareem battled Thurmond in some 50+ H2H games, and his high game against him was only 34 points. And he only had a few 30+ point games against him, as well. And Wilt consistently shot well over 50% against Thurmond in his entire career, while Kareem seldom shot 50% against Thurmond, and in fact, probably shot considerably worse than 45% against him in his career. He had three straight post-seasons, in his statistical prime, of 28.6 ppg, 22.8 ppg, and 22.8 ppg, and on .486, .405, and .428 shooting against Thurmond.

And yet, a 38 year old Kareem could pour in 33 ppg on .634 shooting against Hakeem in five H2H games in the '86 season, which included two games of 42 and 46 (and another 40 point game in '85), and in the 46 point game, Kareem shot 21-30 and only played 37 minutes. And within a short time of that 46 point explosion, Kareem wiped the floor with Ewing, outscoring Pat, 40-9, and outshooting Ewing, 15-22 to 3-17.

[millwad]

Wilt was offensively DOMINATING the NBA from the mid-60's thru the beginning of the 69-70 season, and against a TON of HOF centers, and 6-11 and 7-0+ centers in that period, too.

Once again, just take a look at what he did in the 68-69 season. 20.5 ppg, 21.1 rpg, and .583 from the field. BUT, when he was criticized for his lack of scoring at the mid-way point in the season, he exploded in 17 straight games, averaging 31.1 ppg. In those 17 games, he hung 30 on ROY Elvin Hayes, 33 on Bob Rule (who was an exceptional player before he was injured a couple of years later), 35 against Russell, 60 against Dierking, and 66 on Jim Fox.

Then, at the beginning of the '70 season, he was averaging 32.2 ppg on 60% shooting before he shredded his knee in the ninth game. Included in those nine games were games of 37 against tough 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle, 38 against HOFer (and reigning league MVP) Wes Unseld, and 42 against Rule. Oh, and he trashed Kareem in their very first H2H with a 25-20 game on 9-14 shooting.

Take a look at the rosters and centers in those two years. By the 69-70 season, in a 14 team league, there were 11 players of 6-11+, and seven of 7-0+ (including Wilt.) And, in those two years, Wilt faced players like Unseld, Hayes, Thurmond, Bellamy, Reed, Russell, and Kareem, all in the HOF..as well as very good centers like Rule and Beaty...and decent one's like Boerwinkle, Dierking, and Imhoff.

Read the topic..

The competition at the center spot in '62 was really weak, now if you wanna live in your imaginary world do so but it's a fact that it was weak.

Other than Russell there was no competition... Sure, we had rookie Bellamy but he played for one of the worst teams of all-time, a pathetic Packer team who won 18 games that season. Then we had the Lovellette who only played 40 games for a Hawk team who won 29 games that season.

Great "competition" at the center position.

[PTB Fan]

Wilt's in the first half of the 60's had not so good competition. Russell, Embry, Lovelette and that's about it. However after the second half of the 60's, then he faced much better competition.

Reed, Bellamy, Unseld, Hayes, Kareem, Cowens, Thurmond etc. That's much better.

[jlauber]

Wilt's in the first half of the 60's had not so good competition. Russell, Embry, Lovelette and that's about it. However after the second half of the 60's, then he faced much better competition.

Reed, Bellamy, Unseld, Hayes, Kareem, Cowens, Thurmond etc. That's much better.

In the mid-60's Wilt was averaging 33.5 ppg on .540 shooting ( in a league that shot .433), in nine team league's with the likes Beaty, Reed, Bellamy, Russell, and Thurmond...as well as decent centers like Embry, Dierking, Counts, and Imhoff.

And, as I already mentioned in his 68-69 and 69-70 seasons, when he wanted to, he could POUND the likes Beaty, Embry, Hayes, Unseld, Russell, Thurmond, Rule, and Kareem.

And I always found it fascinating that in Wilt's 71-72 season, when he was shooting about 9 FGAs per game, he averaged 28.8 ppg in five H2H games, against 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier, including one game of 31-32. In fact, Wilt had another 32-34 game that season, giving him TWO of his career 103 30-30 games...and yet Kareem, who played four years in the same league with Wilt, and 20 overall, could only produce ONE (a 37-30 game in the mid-70's) in his entire career.

By Wilt's LAST season, in a year in which he LED the NBA in rebounding, was first-team all-defense, and set a FG% mark of .727 that will probably never be broken, the NBA had centers like Unseld, Hayes, Cowens, Lanier, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, McAdoo, and Kareem...all in the HOF.

And in Wilt's LAST two seasons, playing in league's with the above players, and at ages 35 and 36, and playing on a surgically repaired knee, he finished 3rd and 4th in the MVP balloting, took both team's to the NBA Finals with 69-13 and 60-22 records, with one title and won a FMVP.

[Pointguard]

Wilt, today would not only be Shaq among current centers he would also be John Wall among centers.


Wow so now Wilt was as fast as a Derrick Rose? :hammerhead:

And you said "Wow" and put an emoticon along with it? Tell me how your mind got to this response? Please connect the dots. Where you drunk?

[jlauber]

Wilt, today would not only be Shaq among current centers he would also be John Wall among centers.



And you said "Wow" and put an emoticon along with it? Tell me how your mind got to this response? Please connect the dots. Where you drunk?

I don't know how fast Rose is (and he is clearly very quick), but I do know that Wilt was not only a member of KU's 440 and 880 teams, as well as their high-jump, long-jump, and triple jump teams...he was also a member of their 4x100 team. And those that actually saw Wilt in the 60's would attest to the fact that he was probably the fastest man in the league at the time.

[PTB Fan]

In the mid-60's Wilt was averaging 33.5 ppg on .540 shooting ( in a league that shot .433), in nine team league's with the likes Beaty, Reed, Bellamy, Russell, and Thurmond...as well as decent centers like Embry, Dierking, Counts, and Imhoff.

And, as I already mentioned in his 68-69 and 69-70 seasons, when he wanted to, he could POUND the likes Beaty, Embry, Hayes, Unseld, Russell, Thurmond, Rule, and Kareem.

Bolded centers were anything from good to really great. Anything else, it really doesn't need to be mentioned. Like i said, Wilt's competition in the early 60's was bad. However, from mid 60's up to his retirement, he faced many HOFers and much better competition


And I always found it fascinating that in Wilt's 71-72 season, when he was shooting about 9 FGAs per game, he averaged 28.8 ppg in five H2H games, against 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier, including one game of 31-32. In fact, Wilt had another 32-34 game that season, giving him TWO of his career 103 30-30 games...

Wilt in the later part of his career, especially as a Lakers, was legendary in terms of efficiency. First of all, he finally played his power game which was the reason why he was so effective and his strength was unmatched.

Seriously, no one could stop him from getting a comfortable place in the NBA especially then expect Russell and Thurmond (he overpowered them, but these effected his shots best).


and yet Kareem, who played four years in the same league with Wilt, and 20 overall, could only produce ONE (a 37-30 game in the mid-70's) in his entire career.

There are several reasons for that. First of all, Bucks Kareem was skinny and despite being well rounded, he established himself as a high scorer for his teams.

He wasn't being as much aggressive on the boards when compared to his LA days. Another thing is, he didn't play as much as Wilt did (regardless was he up or down by 20) and wasn't as good rebounder.

Plus, when Big Lew was in his peak with LA, the league pace was already slowing down and he was older.


By Wilt's LAST season, in a year in which he LED the NBA in rebounding, was first-team all-defense, and set a FG% mark of .727 that will probably never be broken, the NBA had centers like Unseld, Hayes, Cowens, Lanier, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, McAdoo, and Kareem...all in the HOF.

Cool stuff



And in Wilt's LAST two seasons, playing in league's with the above players, and at ages 35 and 36, and playing on a surgically repaired knee, he finished 3rd and 4th in the MVP balloting, took both team's to the NBA Finals with 69-13 and 60-22 records, with one title and won a FMVP.

Wilt was robbed out of an MVP in those years. Definitely.

[Asukal]

I don't know how fast Rose is (and he is clearly very quick), but I do know that Wilt was not only a member of KU's 440 and 880 teams, as well as their high-jump, long-jump, and triple jump teams...he was also a member of their 4x100 team. And those that actually saw Wilt in the 60's would attest to the fact that he was probably the fastest man in the league at the time.

Now now grandpas please dont say Wilt is as fast as Rose, he is not. I don't even need stats to prove that. :no:

[Psileas]

See? Again you automatically assume I said Wilt would not benefit from anything in other eras just like you assumed I implied Wilt would shoot a horrible FG% in the 80s which I didn't at all. My problem with you Wilt fans are you'd like us younger people to respect him yet you want us to believe Wilt is superman at the same time which if you do an in depth analysis, he isn't. I guess stans are stans no matter what era their hero played in. :facepalm

You assumed quite a few things yourself. When did I claim that you assumed Wilt would shoot a horrible FG% in the 80s? Even if you thought that he'd shoot at the same %'s (51%), that's still not horrible.
Here's what you claimed, among others:


just because league average fg% went up it automatically means Wilt will also magically get better and shoot better if you put him in 87? League average usually affects the majority of players, and as far as we know the league is full of role players, some all stars, and very few superstars. So NO Wilt will not get better, there's a ceiling for everybody even for Wilt.

Looking at the bold, how can someone not assume that you wouldn't expect Wilt to get better?

As for superman, Wilt would not need to be superman to shoot over 51% from the field. And while he still wouldn't be perfect, you'd probably hear the word "superman" quite a few times among fans for him.

[Asukal]

You assumed quite a few things yourself. When did I claim that you assumed Wilt would shoot a horrible FG% in the 80s? Even if you thought that he'd shoot at the same %'s (51%), that's still not horrible.
Here's what you claimed, among others:

He won't get better, he might shoot higher fg% but he won't get better stats. That's what I meant with that, I don't see Wilt scoring as much as 50 ppg or 20 rpg in a season in 87.

[jlauber]

Wilt was only in his third year in that 61-62 season, too. And he had already seen a big jump in BOTH scoring AND efficiency by that third year, as well. From the rare footage of Wilt that we have in his early years, he had excellent range (for almost ANY seven-footer in ANY era), along with exceptional quickness, and a VARIETY of post moves and shots.

By the mid-60's, he had cut back his range, but was even more skilled around the basket. And, because of his range, and athletcism, even the widening of the lane had no real affect on his game. Had he been strictly a power player, and his numbers would have declined considerably. However, Wilt seldom resorted to an overpowering game.

Wilt's 65-66 season is often overlooked because, once again, he did not win a ring (although he did lead them to the best record in the league, and along the way he led the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG%...as well as averaging 5.2 apg.) But he may very well have been at his "scoring" peak. Psileas (and PHILA) pointed this out in another thread, but in a three game span, Wilt hung a 33-17-8 game on Thurmond, then outscored Thurmond by an incredible 45-13 margin, and then annihilated Russell with a 31-40 game (while Russell was held to an 11-13 game.) He also had 37-32 and 37-28 games against Reed in that season (and the year before he games of 41, 46, 52 and 58 against him.) x

Most all educated opinion has Wilt at his absolute best by the 66-67 season. I find it amusing that Rick Barry, who led the league in scoring at 35.6 ppg (which is the highest "non-Wilt" ppg average in the Chamberlain-era), even claimed that he (Barry) won the scoring title, simply because Wilt had no interest in winning it.

ThaRegular8r


Originally Posted by Rick Barry
I won the NBA scoring title only because Wilt Chamberlain didn’t want it that year. Oscar Robertson averaged 30 points a game and Jerry West 28 and Elgin Baylor 26 (although they both missed a lot of games). Wilt averaged 24. Wilt had decided he’d been scoring champion often enough and he’d be more of a passer than scorer from then on. But anytime he wanted to, Wilt could have scored more than 35 points a game, and I know it, and he knows it, and everyone should know it.”

And Chamberlain's already mind-boggling numbers that season, (24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, and an eye-popping .683 FG%) is even more remarkable when you look at his performance against individual team's. Against Russell and the 60-21 Celtics, he averaged 20.7 ppg, 26.7 rpg, and shot .549 (again, in a league that shot .441.) Against Thurmond and the Warriors, he averaged 20.3 ppg, 25.8 rpg, and shot .562 from the field.

Of course, he torched the both in the playoffs, outscoring Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; outassisting Russell, per game, 10.0 apg to 6.0 apg; outrebounding Russell, and by a staggering 32.0 rpg to 23.0 rpg margin; and outshooting Russell by an astonishing .556 to .358 margin. Against Thurmond in the Finals, he outscored Nate, 17.5 ppg to 14.3 ppg; he outassisted Thurmond, 6.8 apg to 4.3 apg; he outrebounded Nate in five of the six games, and by a 28.5 rpg to 26.7 rpg margin; and he devoured Thurmond from the field by an astronomical .560 to .343 margin.

But after those two, how about Beaty's Hawks? 22.1 ppg, 23.7 rpg, and on .684 shooting.

And evidently Wilt had no desire to score on the Pistons...his lowest average of the season,...20.1 ppg on .622 shooting.

Against Chicago, Wilt scored 25.6 ppg, but, on get this... .797 shooting.

The Baylor-West Lakers? 26.4 ppg... on a sensational .759 FG%.

The Oscar-Lucas Royals? 28.6 ppg on .695 shooting.

And Wilt really crushed the Bullets...30.9 ppg on .746 shooting.

But here is the one that really stood out. Against the Knicks, and their "twin towers" of Reed and Bellamy... 22.7 ppg, 25.7 rpg, and on a spectacular .709 FG%.

And, as he did in EVERY season in the 60's, Wilt put up the NBA high scoring game, with a 58 point game, and on 26-34 shooting. He also added the three highest "perfect games" in NBA history that season, with games of 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18 (and a 42 point game.) And, in the process, he also made an NBA record, 35 straight FGAs.


Wilt tappered off slightly in his 67-68 season, with a 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, .595 FG% season...BUT, he did LEAD the league in assists that season, at 8.6 apg. And, he also hung the four highest scoring games that season, with games of 52, 53, 53, and 68. (And in the very next season, Wilt added games of 60 and 66 points... on 29-35 shooting.)

When was Wilt's peak? Most would argue that his 66-67 season was his zenith. However, I have always wondered what he would have done in a full season in the 69-70 season. His new coach asked him to become the focal point of the offense, and in his first nine games he was averaging 32.2 ppg, 20 rpg, and on 60% shooting. He put up games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points in those nine games, as well as a 25 point, 25 rebound, 9-14 shooting game against rookie Alcindor (Kareem.) The 37 point game was against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle; the 38 point game was against reigning MVP Wes Unseld; and the 42 point game was against Bob Rule, who was among the best players in the league that season.

Unfortunately, Wilt tore up his knee in that ninth game, and was never quite the same again. Still, he came back way ahead of schedule, and put up games of 36 points, and then a 30-27-11 block game in game seven against the Suns. He also put up the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 from the field) in a seven game loss to the 60-22 Knicks.

In any case, while many consider Chamberlain's 61-62 season as perhaps the greatest in NBA history, it may not have even been among his 2-3 best seasons.

[Deuce Bigalow]

man you need to get off wilts nuts already dude

[ThaRegul8r]

In any case, while many consider Chamberlain's 61-62 season as perhaps the greatest in NBA history, it may not have even been among his 2-3 best seasons.

And so it couldn't possibly have been the greatest season in NBA history if it wasn't even the best season of the player who did it. Simple logic. Actually, Oscar Robertson's triple double has gotten the most press of anything that took place that season.

[jlauber]

And so it couldn't possibly have been the greatest season in NBA history if it wasn't even the best season of the player who did it. Simple logic. Actually, Oscar Robertson's triple double has gotten the most press of anything that took place that season.

I am actually more inclined to rank Wilt's 71-72 season as near the top of his greatest seasons. His clutch post-season performances were certainly among his best, despite scoring considerably less than in many of his other post-seasons.

I wouldn't call his 61-62 season, a "stats-padding" season, since it was his coach who asked Wilt to shoot at will that year. And, he still managed to take that roster to a game seven against Russell's Celtics. But, the reality was/is, there is really no reason to HAVE to score 50 ppg in a full season. If one player HAS to consistently score that much, his team is doomed to failure.

Having said, though, I have to shake my head at those that honestly believe that just anyone could have accomplished that feat. Two good examples... Walt Bellamy, in that same season. He averaged 31.6 ppg, on an 18-62 team. Clearly, if he were capable of scoring 50 ppg, that would have been the team to do it with.

The second example? Kareem. I'm sure you have read my take on this before, but in his 71-72 season, he played 44.2 mpg, and averaged 34.8 ppg, on .574 shooting. His Bucks went 63-19, and they devoured their opposition to the tune of a +11.1 ppg differential. Then, when he was traded to the Lakers in his 75-76 season, and with basically a below average roster... he played 41.2 mpg, scoring 27.7 ppg, and only shooting .529. And his Lakers went 40-42. If he were truly capable of scoring anywhere near even 40 ppg, that would have been the season to do it.

[Pointguard]

And so it couldn't possibly have been the greatest season in NBA history if it wasn't even the best season of the player who did it. Simple logic. Actually, Oscar Robertson's triple double has gotten the most press of anything that took place that season.

I could be wrong but they didn't make big deals of triple doubles until Magic and Bird came in the league. It was something to make of their great versatility. Back then they weren't into advanced stats at all - they didn't even record blocks and steals.

[ThaRegul8r]

And so it couldn't possibly have been the greatest season in NBA history if it wasn't even the best season of the player who did it. Simple logic. Actually, Oscar Robertson's triple double has gotten the most press of anything that took place that season.

I am actually more inclined to rank Wilt's 71-72 season as near the top of his greatest seasons. His clutch post-season performances were certainly among his best, despite scoring considerably less than in many of his other post-seasons.

I have him as my MVP that season.


I wouldn't call his 61-62 season, a "stats-padding" season, since it was his coach who asked Wilt to shoot at will that year.

I said nothing about "stats-padding." It seems I must once again tell you not to transfer your argument with other posters onto me. It's irritating, and one of the things which inclines me towards ceasing from posting here. (And why I have gone on long absences from this board.)

[ThaRegul8r]

And so it couldn't possibly have been the greatest season in NBA history if it wasn't even the best season of the player who did it. Simple logic. Actually, Oscar Robertson's triple double has gotten the most press of anything that took place that season.

I could be wrong but they didn't make big deals of triple doubles until Magic and Bird came in the league. It was something to make of their great versatility. Back then they weren't into advanced stats at all - they didn't even record blocks and steals.

No, you are correct. They didn't make a big deal of triple doubles until Magic and Bird came in the league. The term wasn't even coined until then. Magic used to be regarded as the all-time triple double leader with his 138; I don't remember when it was exactly when they went back and counted Oscar's and were forced to acknowledge that he was the true all-time triple double leader with 181, and that Magic was actually second. And that Oscar literally had a triple double every other game in 1961-62, when he played 79 games and had 41 triple doubles (Magic's single-season best was 18). I remember when they talked about Oscar, they always said we don't know how many he had, but then at some point they knew.

[jlauber]

I have him as my MVP that season.



I said nothing about "stats-padding." It seems I must once again tell you not to transfer your argument with other posters onto me. It's irritating, and one of the things which inclines me towards ceasing from posting here. (And why I have gone on long absences from this board.)

I apologize. I wasn't directing my comments towards you, but rather to the OP (and the other's who constantly bring it up.) I was merely adding that while I don't believe Wilt had his greatest season in 61-62, it was still an incredible season. There are some here who disparage everything about Wilt. I know that you are not one of them.

You and I may not agree at times, but I certainly respect your opinions.

[Psileas]

No, you are correct. They didn't make a big deal of triple doubles until Magic and Bird came in the league. The term wasn't even coined until then. Magic used to be regarded as the all-time triple double leader with his 138; I don't remember when it was exactly when they went back and counted Oscar's and were forced to acknowledge that he was the true all-time triple double leader with 181, and that Magic was actually second. And that Oscar literally had a triple double every other game in 1961-62, when he played 79 games and had 41 triple doubles (Magic's single-season best was 18). I remember when they talked about Oscar, they always said we don't know how many he had, but then at some point they knew.

Chick Hearn, after all, allegedly, was the guy who coined the "triple double" phrase (probably due to Magic's play). So, people would not really pay attention to a player getting 10+ in 3 categories before the early 80's. I'm pretty sure Oscar would duplicate his triple-double season 2-3 times more if there was such a triple-double awareness back then, especially in 1964, possibly his actually best season.

[millwad]

Wilt was only in his third year in that 61-62 season, too. And he had already seen a big jump in BOTH scoring AND efficiency by that third year, as well. From the rare footage of Wilt that we have in his early years, he had excellent range (for almost ANY seven-footer in ANY era), along with exceptional quickness, and a VARIETY of post moves and shots.


No, he didn't have excellent range, can you stop spreading pure lies? This is why no one takes Wilt seriously, because ******gers like you put up crap like that...

Excellent range but at the same time one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time..:facepalm

[jlauber]

No, he didn't have excellent range, can you stop spreading pure lies? This is why no one takes Wilt seriously, because ******gers like you put up crap like that...

Excellent range but at the same time one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time..:facepalm

Once again the "Wilt-basher" pops in with absolutely NO knowledge on what he is spouting off about. Of course, you already KNOW that he had excellent range because I have PROVEN it to you.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html


[Carl Braun said] "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70


And then, in the LIMITED footage we have...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak


And can you and your buddy deucebigalow get off of this RIDICULOUS tangent about Wilt's FT shooting. The man MADE considerably MORE FTs than your boy Hakeem in his career, and in four years less. My god, he MADE 2000 more FTs than Bird for cryingoutloud. In fact, only Jerry West had a season in which he made more, and that was by only 5.

Of course, as I have already PROVEN, Wilt's IMPACT at the line was HUGE. He not only got his opposing center in foul trouble, he got entire team's in foul trouble. And because of Wilt, his teammates got to the line earlier, and more often. Chamberlain's teams either led, or were among the leaders in FTAs nearly every year he played. His '67 Sixers were MILES ahead of the next team. You want an example? Wilt's '69 Lakers LED the league in FTAs. The next year, Wilt tore up his knee, and missed 70 games in the regular season. The Lakers finished ELEVENTH (in a 14 team league) in FTAs. BUT, how about this...Wilt came back for the playoffs...and the Lakers were again, MILES ahead of the next best team (LA shot 200 more FTs than their nearest competitor in the post-season.)

BTW, good FT shooting is not a direct indicator of range. Just ask Bruce Bowen, who shot .404 from the line in the 02-03 season...and oh BTW, also LED the NBA in 3pt shooting, at .441.

If you would only do some research...

[ukplayer4]

great thread, good debate going on. it does seem difficult to really analyse wilt's numbers. but still 50 ppg never stops being just staggering to read. is even 40ppg a possibilty these days? probably prime mj on one of a.i's philly teams....

[jlauber]

great thread, good debate going on. it does seem difficult to really analyse wilt's numbers. but still 50 ppg never stops being just staggering to read. is even 40ppg a possibilty these days? probably prime mj on one of a.i's philly teams....

The "Wilt-bashers" will never acknowledge the fact that ONLY Chamberlain accomplished BOTH of those marks. TWO seasons of 40+. If it were so easy to do back in Wilt's era, how come the highest scoring "non-Wilt" full season in his 14 years in the league was Barry's 35.6 ppg in '67? Had Wilt never played, Barry's mark would have lasted for 20 years, when MJ averaged 37.1 ppg.

And, the reality was, there were not a significant amount of 34+ ppg seasons in Wilt's era, either. Kareem and Baylor had years of 34.8 ppg, while Archibald had a 34.0 ppg (in a year in which he led the NBA in assists BTW.) Players like Oscar and West had multiple 30+ ppg seasons, but they were all in the low 30's.

And how come very few ever acknowledge McAdoo's '75 season, when he averaged 34.5 ppg in a league that averaged 102.6 ppg? That was only a couple of years after Wilt retired BTW.

So, how come it was ONLY Wilt that was averaging 40 ppg over the course of his first SEVEN seasons...combined? How come ONLY Wilt had several rebounding seasons greater than 25 rpg? How come ONLY Wilt was outshooting the entire league by margins of .244 and .271...and no one else has even hit a .200 differential? How come ONLY Wilt has been the only center to lead the league in assist? How come ONLY Wilt has led the NBA in scoring AND rebounding in the same season, which he did SEVERAL times? And how come it was ONLY Wilt that led the NBA in scoring, rebounding, AND FG%, in the SAME season...and he did it THREE times? How come there have been 131 30-30 games in NBA history, and Wilt has 103 of them? Or that there have been 61 40-30 games in NBA history, and Chamberlain has 55 of them? Or that that Wilt has been the ONLY player in NBA history to have put up a 50-40 game, and he did it FOUR times? How come ONLY Wilt was able to make 35 straight FGAs? How come ONLY Wilt had the only 20-20-20 game in NBA history? How come only WILT had an 18-18 game from the floor? How come there have been 10 70+ point games in NBA history, and Wilt is the ONLY player with multiple games... in fact Wilt had SIX of the 10? How come there have been 62 60+ point games in NBA history, and Wilt has over HALF of them (32?) How come there have been 28 40+ rebound games in NBA history, and Wilt has over HALF of them (15?)

I could go on, but the FACT is...Chamberlain STILL holds some 130 NBA records. If it was so easy back then, how come WILT holds the overwhelming LION's SHARE of the NBA record book?

[Shadynasty's]

it was a different era, but ive always given Wilt his due

[millwad]

Once again the "Wilt-basher" pops in with absolutely NO knowledge on what he is spouting off about. Of course, you already KNOW that he had excellent range because I have PROVEN it to you.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html


Haha, you're just pathetic.
Once again, a highlight-video doesn't prove anything at all. In that case, Chris Mihm had excellent range as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh6fOuUOkok

In that video Chris Mihm shows better touch and range than what Wilt did in his highlight-video..:facepalm

Why is it that Wilt doesn't show his excellent "range" in any of the longer sequals of him taped?

And a quote from Carl Braun doesn't mean that crap, how many centers back in the days did have any kind of decent range at all? We are talking about the same league where center barely made 45% of their shots.. The quote is a joke to start with, comparing him with Russell says alot, doesn't it? All these quotes and you seem to believe every one of them, Wilt "dunking" from the FT-line and guys who played against him a la BIG O thought he'd average 75 points per game today, you trust that too? Or Wilt himself claiming he had a 50 inch vert..:facepalm



And then, in the LIMITED footage we have...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak


And can you and your buddy deucebigalow get off of this RIDICULOUS tangent about Wilt's FT shooting. The man MADE considerably MORE FTs than your boy Hakeem in his career, and in four years less. My god, he MADE 2000 more FTs than Bird for cryingoutloud. In fact, only Jerry West had a season in which he made more, and that was by only 5.

He is not my buddy, and still you are going off topic. I am not writing about the "impact" he had from the FT-line. I am talking about the fact that he was a horrible FT-shooter with horrible shooting technique. The fact that he made more FT's than Bird doesn't make him a better FT-shooter, idiot.



Of course, as I have already PROVEN, Wilt's IMPACT at the line was HUGE. He not only got his opposing center in foul trouble, he got entire team's in foul trouble. And because of Wilt, his teammates got to the line earlier, and more often. Chamberlain's teams either led, or were among the leaders in FTAs nearly every year he played. His '67 Sixers were MILES ahead of the next team. You want an example? Wilt's '69 Lakers LED the league in FTAs. The next year, Wilt tore up his knee, and missed 70 games in the regular season. The Lakers finished ELEVENTH (in a 14 team league) in FTAs. BUT, how about this...Wilt came back for the playoffs...and the Lakers were again, MILES ahead of the next best team (LA shot 200 more FTs than their nearest competitor in the post-season.)

Still not talking about "impact". I am talking about his horrible FT-shooting %...



BTW, good FT shooting is not a direct indicator of range. Just ask Bruce Bowen, who shot .404 from the line in the 02-03 season...and oh BTW, also LED the NBA in 3pt shooting, at .441.

Great example, comparing the profilic scorer Wilt Chamberlain with the offensive scrub Bruce Bowen who averaged 1 FT per game that season..:facepalm



If you would only do some research...

Yeah, your "research" is so great, all the crappy quotes and pathetic claims you back up with a highlight-video.:facepalm

On daily basis I face centers in the swedish basketball league who have greater range than what Wilt had even in that one highlight-video you posted and none of them have "excellent range"..:facepalm

And it's funny, guys like Hakeem who easily were better shooters than Wilt never gets labeled as guys with "excellent" range but somehow you label Wilt as a guy with "excellent range"..:facepalm

[Pointguard]

No, you are correct. They didn't make a big deal of triple doubles until Magic and Bird came in the league. The term wasn't even coined until then. Magic used to be regarded as the all-time triple double leader with his 138; I don't remember when it was exactly when they went back and counted Oscar's and were forced to acknowledge that he was the true all-time triple double leader with 181, and that Magic was actually second. And that Oscar literally had a triple double every other game in 1961-62, when he played 79 games and had 41 triple doubles (Magic's single-season best was 18). I remember when they talked about Oscar, they always said we don't know how many he had, but then at some point they knew.

Thanks Reg, one day yall are going to have to get me up to speed about Oscar. He's been hard for me to get a good hold of. I hear he had a great feel for the game - like one of the best raw instincts there was.

[BlackJoker23]

most overrated thing in all of sports next to bill russell's career

[La Frescobaldi]

Just in case anybody missed Jabbar's open letter to Scottie Pippen earlier this year......

LA Times, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said,

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams

[La Frescobaldi]

Just some more knowledge from NBA players...........

***********************************************
* (2011) Wali Jones won a ring with Chamberlain on the 67 Sixers.... then played with Kareem on the Bucks:
http://www.nba.com/sixersnba/stories/wali_jones_interview_2011_08_01.html

" S.C: You played with some of the greatest players in NBA history and have been around the game for a long time. Is Wilt the best player of all time?

WJ: In history. In the history of basketball, how could you question that? As an individual, he

[ballsohard247]

Nope. No other person has even averaged 40 a game. How could 50 per be overrated.

[305Baller]

Lets take a look at the numbers first:

20.0FG 39.5FGA 10.4FT 17.0FTA 50.4PPG

The shot attempts are what really is startling. The most impressive stat was the 48.5 minutes per game. Gotta give him credit there, even if that did mean he played in blow-outs.

If any other player (well, the Shaq, Kareem and Hakeem's) had that kinda stamina to play THAT MANY mpg and average THAT MANY shots, they too would average 50 points a game. But let's face it, no player has the stamina to go 48 minutes a game. So let's use another number: shot attempts per minutes played. Wilt, that season...took 0.814 shots for each minute he played. He also took 0.351 freethrows per minute.

Let's say 42mpg is realistic (Kobe for example shooting at that rate would average 44.7 points per game - taking into account his shooting %'s).

Other great scorers averages attempting shots at that rate...

Michael Jordan - 46.8ppg

Shaquille O'Neal - 47.0ppg

Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 48.4ppg

Allen Iverson - 40.1ppg

So anyway, point is, I almost forgot my point.. but If any great player were given Wilt's ridiculous circumstances and green light to shoot, they too could have averaged 50 points for a season or close to it. The thing is, could any player have the stamina to put up that many shots, at that rate, and getting abused and going to the line that much?

Stamina-wise it is most certainly impressive. Even playing against children, you may get too tired to average 50 a night.

[32Dayz]

If Shaq took 40 FGA's Per Game on his usual 60% FG average he would average 48ppg.

Add his usual 5-7 FT's he makes a game and thats 53-55ppg.

If he took 17 like Wilt (which I am sure he would have back in those days)
He'd have averaged 56ppg.

It'd have to be Young/Orlando Shaq though because Older Bigger Shaq wouldn't have the stamina to play 48 MPG for a full season.

The game was different back then and you hear some storys of Wilt not even running back on defense sometimes to cherry pick baskets or not playing defense in fear of fouling out.
Not saying those things are true but I have heard them before and with Wilt its so hard to know whats true and whats not.

Wilt was one of the greatest scorers ever.
Its literally impossible to say how his 0ffensive game would translate to the modern era but I'd say it'd be possible for him in his peak seasons to be around 25-30ppg on 50+% shooting.

I really see him as a Full Tier below scorers like Jordan/Shaq and Kareem though.

Those 3 for me are the greatest scorers in the history of the game with Wilt not too far behind.

[ballsohard247]

It's easy to do the math and say player X could have done it, but my thing is, if it was easy to do, why has no one else done it? Why has no one else averaged 40? Jordan was scoring his ass off every night and he got 37, but I don't doubt for a second he was scoring as much as he physically could.

[32Dayz]

It's easy to do the math and say player X could have done it, but my thing is, if it was easy to do, why has no one else done it? Why has no one else averaged 40? Jordan was scoring his ass off every night and he got 37, but I don't doubt for a second he was scoring as much as he physically could.

Possessions / level of competition.

I have no doubt the league had some good Centers back then but they also had some really bad ones too and I think team defenses back then also were much weaker and simplistic compared to the ones players face in this generation.

Many videos u see Wilt being covered only by his man (no double team) imagine Shaq back then with an even bigger size advantage then he had in this Era and facing single coverage much of the time. :eek:

Not saying what Wilt did was unimpressive but in perspective I cant imagine him doing anything close to that in todays Era.

In todays game with far less possessions, better defensive schemes and generally bigger/stronger athletes from 1-5 I dont think Wilt would be droppin 50.

[La Frescobaldi]

I dunno about 50 ppg today either. Not because the guy would be unable to do it. But because...

* coaching schemes are a lot more advanced than Dick McGuire's "the only way we can win is if Wilt averages 50. So Wilt, I need you to score 50 every night."

* the pace of today's NBA is a show-stopper for those kinds of numbers.

* I truly don't think today's players are mentally equipped to provide a player with those kinds of points.

Chamberlain gets a lot of grief about being a ballhog, from guys who don't know all that much about basketball. How can a center be a ballhog? Somebody has to pass it into the paint.
In order for a guy to score those kinds of numbers, he's got to either shotjack at AI's worst, or he's got to have an entire team built around his offense - like Wilt did, like MJ did, like Malone did. Now I remember Wilt all right, but I wasn't watching ball in 1962. But that Warriors club had to be the most unselfish set of players in history to feed a guy that many passes.


On the other hand.....
* The league today is not bigger than Chamberlain's league. And the paint is wide open night after night, by design. NBA fans want slashing drives so that's what they see. This would be a problem for anyone to defend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHAJjP6e6pg

* I saw Chamberlain get defensive rebounds, throw outlet pass, and then LEAD the fast break for open dunk at the other end. AS A LAKER. Wilt wrecked his knee in 69 and was never the same player. But as a Sixer? Dude was FAST.

Kobe got 81 so I'm not certain 100 is unbreakable, especially with the purity of rules the NBA is trying to use (I wish they'd focus more on SKILLS rules because those are totally forgot). But 50 ppg? There'd have to be another athlete of the millenium like Chamberlain for that to happen.

[JMT]

Possessions / level of competition.

.

But nobody did it back then either. As pointed out earlier in the thread, Rick Barry's 35.6 was the next closest until Jordan came along. That's a 15 ppg difference and it held up for decades.

Whether Wilt would score 50 today, or some modern player would have scored 50 back then, really isn't the issue.

Given the same # of possessions, the same rules, the same level of competition, nobody else even came close. Given that, I don't see how people can diminish Chamberlain's accomplishments.

[305Baller]

Of course he could not do it today.

You can't possibly think that the game and preparation for the game has not improved in almost a century?

Absurd.

And with all of the money being pumped into it, you don't think the game has evolved? Training, supplements, evolution of skillsets and training...

Downright madness.

[32Dayz]

But nobody did it back then either. As pointed out earlier in the thread, Rick Barry's 35.6 was the next closest until Jordan came along. That's a 15 ppg difference and it held up for decades.

Whether Wilt would score 50 today, or some modern player would have scored 50 back then, really isn't the issue.

Given the same # of possessions, the same rules, the same level of competition, nobody else even came close. Given that, I don't see how people can diminish Chamberlain's accomplishments.

I agree with you but I also think Chamberlain was even more unique of an athlete in his Era then Shaq was in his.

Few players back then were even comparable to Wilt as athletes while even though someone like Shaq was in a similar position in his Era you still had players like Hakeem/DRob/Duncan/Mutombo/Wallace/Mourning who were also pretty freakish and strong athletes to make life a bit harder on him.

It was a perfect Storm of Fast Paced Era + Prime Wilt + a team that he basically owned and the plan was have guy rodgers pass Wilt the ball everytime and let him score.

[ballsohard247]

There is no doubt that Wilt had certain era specific advantages and he couldn't average 50 today, but I still think what he did was quite an achievement.

[jlauber]

How about this...


Darrall Imhoff remembered the night he had the misfortune of guarding Chamberlain during his 100-point game.


Imhoff, a 6-foot-10 rookie center for the Knicks, picked up his third foul quickly, and when he returned to the game Wilt had 89 points.


"I spent 12 years in his armpits, and I always carried that 100-point game on my shoulders," said Imhoff, who played only 20 minutes in that game before fouling out.


"After I got my third foul, I said to one of the officials, Willy Smith, 'Why don't you just give him 100 points and we'll all go home?' Well, we did."


Two nights later, at Madison Square Garden, Chamberlain tried to go for the century mark again. But Imhoff played all 48 minutes and held him to 54 points. The fans gave Imhoff a standing ovation.

[millwad]

How about this...

Darrall Imhoff was such a beast, I'm glad he is getting some cred on this site. After all, in the same season as Wilt dropped 100 on him and averaged 50 point per game, the amazing Imhoff averaged 5.6 points per game on 38% shooting and the beast Imhoff also managed to grab 6 rebounds per game!:bowdown:

[ballsohard247]

How about this...
Wouldn't want to be the guy who guarded Wilt. You're just going to be embarrassed the whole game.

[jlauber]

Darrall Imhoff was such a beast, I'm glad he is getting some cred on this site. After all, in the same season as Wilt dropped 100 on him and averaged 50 point per game, the amazing Imhoff averaged 5.6 points per game on 38% shooting and the beast Imhoff also managed to grab 6 rebounds per game!:bowdown:

First of all, that was not even the point of my post. I was merely pointing out that in their next meeting, Imhoff "held" Wilt to "only" 54 points, and the fans were so impressed by Imhoff's play, that they gave him a STANDING OVATION.

Secondly, Imhoff was only one of SEVERAL centers that attempted to guard Chamberlain in that 100 point game. Oh, incidently, Wilt shot 36-63 from the floor, and get this... 28-32 from the line.

As for high scoring games, Chamberlain also unleashed THREE games of 60+ points on 6-11 HOFer, Walt Bellamy, with a HIGH game of 73. He also had THREE games of 50+ on 6-9 HOFer Willis Reed, with a high game of 58. He also had SEVERAL 30+ point games, in only a dozen or so in his "scoring prime" against 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond, including one game in which he destroyed Nate by outscoring him, 45-13. BTW, and as you well know, a PRIME Kareem faced Thurmond in some 50 H2H games, and only had a handful or so of 30+, with a high of 34 against him. And, then, Wilt faced the 6-10 world-class leaper, and HOFer, Bill Russell, in 142 H2H games, and he posted 24 games of 40+ against him, with FIVE of 50+, and even one other game of 62 (on 27-45 shooting.)

[millwad]

essay
essay
essay
essay
essay...

You forgot the link, let me help you with it; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01GWCMGEsUw

[Deuce Bigalow]

You forgot the link, let me help you with it; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01GWCMGEsUw

I cant stop replaying it man :oldlol:

[millwad]

And even though I feel that Wilt's 50 point per game season is overrated it's still an amazing accomplishment. But it was also due the era he played in, first of all, the minutes he played would never be a possibility in the modern era. Then we have the amount of shots he put up during that season, He averaged 12 more shots per game in that than any other NBA player in league history, to average almost 40 shots per game in the modern is impossible even if your name is Jordan or Chamberlain.

And we know that guys like Jlauber like to think that the defense back then was so much better than today but fact still remains that the lack of double and triple teams and the lack of defensive schemes like todays standard also was a great help for Chamberlain.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And even though I feel that Wilt's 50 point per game season is overrated it's still an amazing accomplishment. But it was also due the era he played in, first of all, the minutes he played would never be a possibility in the modern era. Then we have the amount of shots he put up during that season, He averaged 12 more shots per game in that than any other NBA player in league history, to average almost 40 shots per game in the modern is impossible even if your name is Jordan or Chamberlain.

And we know that guys like Jlauber like to think that the defense back then was so much better than today but fact still remains that the lack of double and triple teams and the lack of defensive schemes like todays standard also was a great help for Chamberlain.

LMAO, he's that stupid?
****ing moron
He's pathetic, he gives Wilt all the credit for the 2 titles, but the 5 playoff losses with HCA (lol) are all his teammates fault
He is still on his dick till this day :facepalm

[32Dayz]

I dont agree with everything Lauber says but it is true that Wilt's supporting Casts did play terribly at times while he himself played very well so I do personally believe it is ignorant to blame Wilt himself for those sort of losses.

NBA is a team game and no matter how well your Star Player performs if the opposing "team" as a "whole" plays better they will win 10 times out of 10.

DWade was imo the best player in the 2011 Finalz but the Mav's as a 'Team" played better so they won.

[millwad]

I dont agree with everything Lauber says but it is true that Wilt's supporting Casts did play terribly at times while he himself played very well so I do personally believe it is ignorant to blame Wilt himself for those sort of losses.

NBA is a team game and no matter how well your Star Player performs if the opposing "team" as a "whole" plays better they will win 10 times out of 10.

DWade was imo the best player in the 2011 Finalz but the Mav's as a 'Team" played better so they won.

It's getting extremely tiring to read his excuses time after time. Yes, Wilt played on some bad teams but in all the guy had great teammates. Buhu, like Wilt would be the only NBA superstar who had to carry bad teams..:facepalm

If you check the top 10 center list of all-time Wilt only had less quality players than Abdul-Jabbar and Russell by his side. Using his teammates as an excuse constantly is just lame and ridiculous considering how stacked some of his teams were..

[305Baller]

It's about chemistry too. A black hole wins nothing.

[La Frescobaldi]

It's about chemistry too. A black hole wins nothing.

Who's a black hole? To me that means ballhog. The object of the game is to put the ball in the hoop, and if a guy's doing that while breaking all league records of efficiency, how can he be a black hole?

[jlauber]

I have always found it fascinating that Wilt was labeled a "ball hog", and "selfish", and a "stats-padder", and yet, he did whatever his COACH's asked him to do.

How many other "greats" changed their overall play as often as Chamberlain did in his career? He came to a LAST PLACE team, and was asked to single handedly carry those crappy rosters...by his COACH's. Why? Because if Wilt did not shoot, the odds dropped to about 35-40% that his teammates would make their shots.

I have posted the numbers before, but in Wilt's first six post-seasons, covering his first seven seasons (his cast of clowns teammates in his 62-63 season were so inept, that even his monumental one-man show was not enough to get them into the playoffs...although he did get that same basic roster to the Finals the very next season), his teammates collectively shot.412 (and he got them to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics in the ECF's), .382, .380, .354 (and he STILL got them to the ECF's, where they lost a game seven by two points), .352, .352 (on a 55-25 team BTW), and an unbelieveable .332 in those post-seasons.

Not only that, but Chamberlain had some truly staggering post-season rebounding numbers. He was almost always getting 40+% of his team's rebounds, and in the '63-64 post-season, he had 40.7%; in the 64-65 post-season, it was at an eye-popping 47.1%; and in 65-66, it was at 45.6%. Find me the post-seasons where Kareem, or Shaq, or Hakeem, or Duncan, or Howard, or even Rodman, came close to those numbers.

If anything, Wilt passed TOO much early in his career. For example, in his 62-63 season, when he averaged 44.8 ppg on a then-record .528 FG%, he averaged 3.4 apg, ...with his teammates collectively shooting .412 (and the WORST team in the league shot .427.) How many assists did Wilt LOSE by passing to those inept shooters?

And for those that claim that his "selfishness" hurt his team's...how about his 65-66 season, when he led his Sixers to the BEST RECORD in the league (55-25.) All he did that season was average a league-leading 33.5 ppg, a league-leading 24.6 rpg, and a then record .540 FG% (in a league that shot .433), as well as handing out 5.2 apg.

Of course, as we all know, Wilt was asked to become more of a balanced facilitator in his 66-67 season. He only took 14 FGAs per game that season, scoring 24.1 ppg on an unfathomable .683 FG% (in a league that shot .441), with 24.2 rpg, and a whopping 7.8 apg. He would still occasionally pour in a 40+ point game, including the league high that season, of 58 points, on 26-34 shooting (as well as a 43 point game on 18-18 shooting.) The result? A 68-13 season, and a dominating world title.

He played almost exactly the same way in his 67-68 season, when he again led the Sixers to the best record in the league, at 62-20. He averaged 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, and shot .595...as well as leading the league in assists, at 8.6 apg. It was also the highest "non-Russell" Defensive Win Share season in NBA history (7th all-time.) And, while he once again cut back his shooting dramatically, he still had time to post games of 52, 53, 53, and even a 68 point game that season.

He had an incompetent coach in his 68-69 season, BUT, he still what that idiot asked of him. He deferred to the shot-jacking of teammate Elgin Baylor, and ultimately that philosophy cost the Lakers a title in the Finals. Baylor was simply awful, shooting .385 in the post-season, including 8-22 in game seven of the Finals (a two point loss), while Chamberlain was shackled by his coach, and reduced to 13.9 ppg on .545 shooting in the playoffs.

His new coach in the 69-70 season came in and asked Wilt to become the focal point of the offense, and Wilt responded by scoring 32.2 ppg on 60% shooting in his first nine games. He had games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points in those nine games, and another 25-25 game on 9-14 shooting, against Kareem. Unfortunately, he shredded his knee in that 9th game, and was never quite the same after that. Even so, he came back way ahead of schedule, and hung the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history, with a seven game series of 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 shooting against the Knicks.

In his 71-72 season, his new coach (yes, another one) asked him to concentrate on defense, rebounding, and igniting a blistering fast break that just annihilated the NBA that season. Behind his league-leading rebounding, and his first-team all-defense (and he would surely have won DPOY had the award existed), he led the Lakers to a 69-13 record (including 33 straight wins), and an overwhelming title. BTW, he also won the FMVP that season.

He pretty much played the same way in his very last season, when he again led the Lakers to the Finals, with a 60-22 record. However, the injury-riddled Lakers lost four close games to the Knicks. Wilt led the league in rebounding that season, as well as again being voted first team all-defense, and he set a FG% mark of .727 that will probably never be broken...all in his LAST season. And amazingly, in the post-season, he played 47.1 mpg in his 17 playoff games, and averaged 22.5 rpg (in a league that averaged 50.6 rpg per team), which is the last time any player ever cracked 20 rpg in the post-season (and the next best since was Kareem's 17.3 rpg in '77.) And, in his very LAST game, Chamberlain had a 23 point, 9-16 shooting, 21 rebound game.

[32Dayz]

fakkit

Great contribution. :facepalm

What a moron. :lol

[32Dayz]

I suck Kobe's dic* until my rep turns green.

Congratulations. :cheers:

Everytime this fool speaks he embarrasses himself. :lol

Back to the basement loser.

oh and 2x Lulz for you caring about rep.

^^^ No Life Loser xD.

BJ's Rep in life : Friendless, Broke, Basement Dwelling Loser.

How many multiple red bars would represent that?

Plz dont kill yourself.

[BlackJoker23]

everytime i speak i make all the retards in the world proud

my mother gagged on shaqs d1ck repeteadly

she was later raped and out came a mental obese midget


thats cool kid. make the forum proud and cut ur fingers o u cant type anymore

[oolalaa]

I have always found it fascinating that Wilt was labeled a "ball hog", and "selfish", and a "stats-padder", and yet, he did whatever his COACH's asked him to do.

How many other "greats" changed their overall play as often as Chamberlain did in his career? He came to a LAST PLACE team, and was asked to single handedly carry those crappy rosters...by his COACH's. Why? Because if Wilt did not shoot, the odds dropped to about 35-40% that his teammates would make their shots.

I have posted the numbers before, but in Wilt's first six post-seasons, covering his first seven seasons (his cast of clowns teammates in his 62-63 season were so inept, that even his monumental one-man show was not enough to get them into the playoffs...although he did get that same basic roster to the Finals the very next season), his teammates collectively shot.412 (and he got them to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics in the ECF's), .382, .380, .354 (and he STILL got them to the ECF's, where they lost a game seven by two points), .352, .352 (on a 55-25 team BTW), and an unbelieveable .332 in those post-seasons.

Not only that, but Chamberlain had some truly staggering post-season rebounding numbers. He was almost always getting 40+% of his team's rebounds, and in the '63-64 post-season, he had 40.7%; in the 64-65 post-season, it was at an eye-popping 47.1%; and in 65-66, it was at 45.6%. Find me the post-seasons where Kareem, or Shaq, or Hakeem, or Duncan, or Howard, or even Rodman, came close to those numbers.

If anything, Wilt passed TOO much early in his career. For example, in his 62-63 season, when he averaged 44.8 ppg on a then-record .528 FG%, he averaged 3.4 apg, ...with his teammates collectively shooting .412 (and the WORST team in the league shot .427.) How many assists did Wilt LOSE by passing to those inept shooters?

And for those that claim that his "selfishness" hurt his team's...how about his 65-66 season, when he led his Sixers to the BEST RECORD in the league (55-25.) All he did that season was average a league-leading 33.5 ppg, a league-leading 24.6 rpg, and a then record .540 FG% (in a league that shot .433), as well as handing out 5.2 apg.

Of course, as we all know, Wilt was asked to become more of a balanced facilitator in his 66-67 season. He only took 14 FGAs per game that season, scoring 24.1 ppg on an unfathomable .683 FG% (in a league that shot .441), with 24.2 rpg, and a whopping 7.8 apg. He would still occasionally pour in a 40+ point game, including the league high that season, of 58 points, on 26-34 shooting (as well as a 43 point game on 18-18 shooting.) The result? A 68-13 season, and a dominating world title.

He played almost exactly the same way in his 67-68 season, when he again led the Sixers to the best record in the league, at 62-20. He averaged 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, and shot .595...as well as leading the league in assists, at 8.6 apg. It was also the highest "non-Russell" Defensive Win Share season in NBA history (7th all-time.) And, while he once again cut back his shooting dramatically, he still had time to post games of 52, 53, 53, and even a 68 point game that season.

He had an incompetent coach in his 68-69 season, BUT, he still what that idiot asked of him. He deferred to the shot-jacking of teammate Elgin Baylor, and ultimately that philosophy cost the Lakers a title in the Finals. Baylor was simply awful, shooting .385 in the post-season, including 8-22 in game seven of the Finals (a two point loss), while Chamberlain was shackled by his coach, and reduced to 13.9 ppg on .545 shooting in the playoffs.

His new coach in the 69-70 season came in and asked Wilt to become the focal point of the offense, and Wilt responded by scoring 32.2 ppg on 60% shooting in his first nine games. He had games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points in those nine games, and another 25-25 game on 9-14 shooting, against Kareem. Unfortunately, he shredded his knee in that 9th game, and was never quite the same after that. Even so, he came back way ahead of schedule, and hung the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history, with a seven game series of 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 shooting against the Knicks.

In his 71-72 season, his new coach (yes, another one) asked him to concentrate on defense, rebounding, and igniting a blistering fast break that just annihilated the NBA that season. Behind his league-leading rebounding, and his first-team all-defense (and he would surely have won DPOY had the award existed), he led the Lakers to a 69-13 record (including 33 straight wins), and an overwhelming title. BTW, he also won the FMVP that season.

He pretty much played the same way in his very last season, when he again led the Lakers to the Finals, with a 60-22 record. However, the injury-riddled Lakers lost four close games to the Knicks. Wilt led the league in rebounding that season, as well as again being voted first team all-defense, and he set a FG% mark of .727 that will probably never be broken...all in his LAST season. And amazingly, in the post-season, he played 47.1 mpg in his 17 playoff games, and averaged 22.5 rpg (in a league that averaged 50.6 rpg per team), which is the last time any player ever cracked 20 rpg in the post-season (and the next best since was Kareem's 17.3 rpg in '77.) And, in his very LAST game, Chamberlain had a 23 point, 9-16 shooting, 21 rebound game.

Stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats and some more STATS!!

BASKETBALL IS NOT BASEBALL!!

The best players are not necessarily the ones with the best stats. You know this. You just choose to ignore it when talking about Wilt.

We all know Wilt was a box score stuffer (especially in the regular season) and a great all round player. But, we question his intangibles. We question his leadership. We question his clutchness. We question his drive to win. The sum of all these things are undeniably more important than stats.

Take off your rose tinted spectacles jlauber...

[millwad]

Congratulations. :cheers:

Everytime this fool speaks he embarrasses himself. :lol

Back to the basement loser.

oh and 2x Lulz for you caring about rep.

^^^ No Life Loser xD.

BJ's Rep in life : Friendless, Broke, Basement Dwelling Loser.

How many multiple red bars would represent that?

Plz dont kill yourself.

Haha, you're funny. LMAO at you for calling someone else for a basement loser when you average 20 posts per day a la licking Shaq balls. That's the definition of a loser..

Now go outside and play with your imaginary friends while convincing yourself that your posts are top notch and that you're tight with Shaq..

TADAAA!

[305Baller]

Wilt, even against total scrubs would still have achieved an amazing feat of athletical endurance that has never been matched at any level.

[La Frescobaldi]

You see that's where guys like you fail to understand something so simple. I didn't say Wilt will not dominate in the 80s, he would be great in any era. What I was disputing was Jlauber's mindset of robotic thinking, where if Wilt shot 50% in a 42% era, he'd AUTOMATICALLY shoot 57% in a 48% era. Basketball is not just about stats, there's a lot of other factors involved. What advancements in the game would Wilt benefit from 25 years later?

25 years after 1962 would be 1987.
* The league was writhing in cocaine problems.
* MJ was in his physical prime, with his greatest year, 37 ppg - the first since Chamberlain to score more than 3000 points in a season - & his first time getting past the first playoff round.
* Barkley was storming the league
* Celtics & Lakers were still ruling the Finals, just as they did in the 60s.
* Future Hall of Famers...........
Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Moses Malone, Julius Erving, Isiah Thomas, Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley, Akeem Olajuwon, Clyde Drexler, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Alex English, Patrick Ewing, Adrian Dantley, Joe Dumars, and Dennis Rodman.

Kareem, Parish, Moses, Olajuwon, Ewing. I notice that list (from Wikipedia) is missing A Train.

3 point line has permanently stretched the court, leaving the middle open for even an aged center like Kareem to dominate


What time is Chamberlain on? The Warriors? That was a team all right...... 21-61, Sleepy Floyd, Chris Mullin.... Chamberlain would put up lots of numbers with that team.

The Sixers? Dr. J's last year, Barkley & Cheeks.... World B. Free ......

The Lakers? A 1962 Wilt would definitely and permanently bench 87 Jabbar and their fast break would be unbelievable


Great matchups no question.

[jlauber]

Stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats, stats and some more STATS!!

BASKETBALL IS NOT BASEBALL!!

The best players are not necessarily the ones with the best stats. You know this. You just choose to ignore it when talking about Wilt.

We all know Wilt was a box score stuffer (especially in the regular season) and a great all round player. But, we question his intangibles. We question his leadership. We question his clutchness. We question his drive to win. The sum of all these things are undeniably more important than stats.

Take off your rose tinted spectacles jlauber...

Ok, give me an example of these "intangibles" that you are questioning. How about Wilt immediately taking a LAST PLACE roster to a 49-26 record in his very first year...which was a team record at the time.

How about Chamberlain taking the bulk of that same roster, but now older and even worse, to a 48-32 record in his 61-62 season...all while scoring 50 ppg. Not only that, he single-handedly mowed down the Nationals in the first round, including a 56-35 clinching game five. Then, he somehow dragged that crappy group to a game seven, two point loss, against the 60-20 Celtics, and their SEVEN HOFers. Oh, and BTW, his teammates collectively shot .354 in that post-season. Explain to me how that was possible. In fact, in Wilt's first SIX post-seasons, his teammates collectively shot .383, .380, .354, .352, .352, and .332...and yet, he took them to FOUR Conference Finals, including a Finals. All, and with practically no help.

Or Wilt playing his heart out in the 62-63 season, on arguably the worst roster ever assembled. He could have folded his tent and gave up, but instead, he played 47.6 mpg, scored 44.8 ppg, grabbed 24.3 rpg, and shot a then-record .528 from the floor. In fact, he led the NBA in 15 of their 22 statistical categories.

And how about Chamberlain then taking that nearly identical pathetic cast of clowns to a 48-32 record the very next season, and a trip to the Finals.

Or Wilt being traded at mid-season, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before...and leading them to a 3-1 romp over Oscar's loaded 48-32 Royals team. THEN, taking that 40-40 team, to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics, at the height of their Dynasty.

Or the fact that Wilt led the Sixers to the best record in the league three straight seasons, including their STILL best ever record of 68-13 mark in '67, and taking them to a dominating world title.

Or Wilt being "traded" from the Sixers, and immediately leading the Lakers to a then, best-ever record in Los Angeles. And a few years later leading them to a 69-13 record, which is STILL the best ever record by a Laker team. Or that Chamberlain led the Lakers to FOUR Finals in his five seasons there.

Or that all of his former teams immediately became worse, and then would get drop considerably after that. Including his Lakers, which plummetted after he retired, and did not come close to what he had accomplished until Magic arrived seven years later.

Leadership? Here again, give me the examples of where his "leadership" hurt his team's. Granted, he probably listened too much to the several incompetent coach's he was shackled with. But, had he argued with them, he would have been labeled a "sulker."

CLUTCHNESS? Wilt averaged 24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and shot .626 from the field in his nine game seven's. And that does not include that 56-35 game five, in a best-of-series.

And, one more time...


1960 Game 3 vs. Nationals (best of 3 series at the time): 53 points in a 20 point win.

1962 Game 5 vs. Nationals: 56 points, 35 rebounds in a 17 point win.

1962 Game 6 vs Celtics: 32 points in a 10 point win

1962 Game 7 vs Celtics: 22 points, 21 rebounds in a 2 point loss

1964 Game 5 vs. Hawks: 50 points in a 24 point win.

1964 Game 7 vs. Hawks: 39 points, 26 rebounds, 12 blocks in a 10 point win.

1965 Game 6 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 26 rebounds in a 6 point win

1965 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 30 points, 32 rebounds in a 1 point loss

1966 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 46 points, 34 rebounds in an 8 point loss

1967 Game 2 vs. Royals: 37 points, 27 rebounds, 11 assists in a 21 point win.

1967 Game 3 vs. Royals: 16 points, 30 rebounds, 19 assists in a 15 point win.

1967 Game 1 vs. Celtics: 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists, 12 blocks in a 15 point win.

1967 Game 3 vs. Celtics: 20 points, 41 rebounds, 9 assists in an 11 point win.

1967 Game 5 vs. Celtics: 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists in a 24 point win.

1968 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 25 points, 27 rebounds in an 18 point win. Little known fact is that Chamberlain led BOTH TEAMS in points, rebounds, and assists for the entire series, whilst nursing an assortment of injuries, including his annual shin splints. This against two Hall Of Fame centers Walt Bellamy & Willis Reed. Apparently Willis used to tremble at the mere sight of Luke Jackson in the MSG tunnel pre-game.

1968 Game 7 vs Celtics: 14 points, 34 rebounds in a 4 point loss (This despite two touches in the entire 4th quarter, the smartest move Russell has ever made in his career switching himself over to guard Chet).

1969 Game 7 vs. Celtics: 18 points, 27 rebounds in a 2 point loss (Head coach leaves him on the bench due to a personal grudge.)

1970 Game 5 vs. Suns: 36 points, 14 rebounds in a 17 point win

1970 Game 7 vs. Suns: 30 points, 27 rebounds, 11 blocks in a 35 point win (helped lead Lakers back from 1-3 deficit)

1970 Game 6 vs. Knicks: 45 points, 27 rebounds in a 22 point win

1970 Game 7 vs. Knicks: 21 points, 24 rebounds in a 14 point loss

(Understand that he should have not even been playing in the 1969-70 season after his injury, but was able to rehab his knee in time with his workouts in volleyball, a sport he would later become a Hall Of Famer in as well.)

1971 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 25 points, 18 rebounds in an 11 point win

1971 Game 5 vs. Bucks: 23 points, 12 rebounds, 6 blocks in an 18 point loss without Elgin Baylor or Jerry West. (Alcindor in this game had 20 points, 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks).

1973 Game 7 vs. Bulls: 21 points, 28 rebounds in a 3 point win (Bulls had the ball and a one point lead with 30 or so seconds left in the 4th. Norm Van Lier goes up for the shot only to have it rejected by the "big choker" Wilt Chamberlain. Chamberlain blocked Van Lier's shot right to Gail Goodrich down court for the go ahead basket. Is there any mention of this clutch defensive play from Chamberlain in Bill Simmons "Book Of Basketball"?

1973 Game 5 vs. Knicks: 23 points, 21 rebounds in a 9 point loss (a hobbled Jerry West finished with 12 points)


Yep...Wilt was a "choker" and a "failure."

Incidently, you can add game five of the '60 ECF's (Philadelphia was down 3-1, so it was a must-win game), and he responded with a 50-35 game against Russell in a 128-107 win. Keep in mind that game was in his rookie season, and he faced a Celtic team with SEVEN HOFers.

And, IMHO, his greatest effort came against Kareem in game six of the WCF's. He held Kareem to 16-37 shooting, while going 8-12 himself, and scoring 22 points with 24 rebounds. And, he absolutely took over the game in the 4th quarter, and led LA back from a 10 point deficit to a clinching four point win. He also blocked 11 shots in that game, and five of them were Kareem's sky-hooks.

Or Wilt, with two badly injured wrists dominating the clinching game five win the Finals, with a 24 point, 10-14 shooting, 29 rebound (the ENTIRE Knick team had 39 BTW), and 9 block game.


THAT was Wilt "the choker."


His drive to win? The man played on 12 winning teams in his 14 seasons, and in the two that he did not, he had that monumental season in 62-63, and that 64-65 playoff run where he carried a 40-40 team to within ONE point, in a game seven, of beating the 62-18 Celtics.

He went to 12 Conference Finals (by contrast, Bird went to eight.) He played on SIX teams that went to the Finals. He played on SIX teams that were Conference champions. He played on FOUR teams that had the best record in the league. He played on FOUR teams that won 60+ games, including two that went 68-13 and 69-13 (and won 33 straight games.) And he anchored TWO title teams. Not only that, but as I mentioned earlier, he single-handedly carried inept rosters to within an eyelash of beating Russell's "dynasty", and in fact, he DID beat that Dynasty (with a 4-1 blowout rout too.)

For someone who was considered a "loser", he was pretty bad at it. He gets ripped, but meanwhile Kareem played an entire decade with underachieving teams. And he had numerous playoff flops jobs. Bird lost with HCA in six post-seasons, and he had some downright AWFUL post-season series along the way. Hakeem never played on a 60 win team, and was blown out EIGHT times in the first round. And Shaq was part of SIX sweeping losses in the playoffs. MJ played on FIVE losing teams, and was 1-9 in his first ten playoff games. He didn't even get to the Finals until his seventh season. Yet, all we read about is how big a "loser" Chamberlain was.

Yep...that was Wilt. He was a "selfish", "stats-padding" "loser" who "choked" in his post-seasons, and was a miserable "failure" over the course of his entire career.

[jongib369]

25 years after 1962 would be 1987.
* The league was writhing in cocaine problems.
* MJ was in his physical prime, with his greatest year, 37 ppg - the first since Chamberlain to score more than 3000 points in a season - & his first time getting past the first playoff round.
* Barkley was storming the league
* Celtics & Lakers were still ruling the Finals, just as they did in the 60s.
* Future Hall of Famers...........
Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Moses Malone, Julius Erving, Isiah Thomas, Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley, Akeem Olajuwon, Clyde Drexler, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Alex English, Patrick Ewing, Adrian Dantley, Joe Dumars, and Dennis Rodman.

Kareem, Parish, Moses, Olajuwon, Ewing. I notice that list (from Wikipedia) is missing A Train.

3 point line has permanently stretched the court, leaving the middle open for even an aged center like Kareem to dominate


What time is Chamberlain on? The Warriors? That was a team all right...... 21-61, Sleepy Floyd, Chris Mullin.... Chamberlain would put up lots of numbers with that team.

The Sixers? Dr. J's last year, Barkley & Cheeks.... World B. Free ......

The Lakers? A 1962 Wilt would definitely and permanently bench 87 Jabbar and their fast break would be unbelievable


Great matchups no question.

:eek: