Which players have case for GOAT in the NBA History?

[PTB Fan]

Which players of the NBA History do you think have case for GOAT?

Name your players

[L8kersfan222]

Kobe

[EnoughSaid]

Michael Jordan
Kareem
Magic



LeBron James :lol

[DMV2]

Michael Jordan

[jlauber]

Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, and Kareem. Shaq and Duncan are just on the outside looking in, and then the next tier has Bird, Kobe, and perhaps Hakeem.

[D-Wade316]

Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul Jabbar

[WillC]

Top 100 players of all-time according to various sources: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html

[WillC]

Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, and Kareem. Shaq and Duncan are just on the outside looking in, and then the next tier has Bird, Kobe, and perhaps Hakeem.

How can you justify having Bird two tiers lower than Magic? That's ridiculous.

[jlauber]

Top 100 players of all-time according to various sources: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html

Actually, not a bad list.

[WillC]

Actually, not a bad list.

Thanks. It's pretty comprehensive.

[pauk]

Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem

[Doranku]

Jordan, KAJ, and Russell.

[Vienceslav]

Kareem and Jordan , you can

[pauk]

Top 100 players of all-time according to various sources: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html

:facepalm @ elgin baylor being #13 and Lebron #25



Elgin Baylor
1 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
11 x NBA All-Star
10 x All-NBA 1st team
thats about it........

Stats:
23149 points @ 27 PPG
11463 rebounds @ 13 RPG
3650 assists @ 5 APG

Lebron James
2 x NBA MVP
2 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
7 x All-Star
5 x All-NBA 1st team
3 x All-Defensive 1st team
17 x POTM (most in NBA history)
1 x Gold Medal

Stats:
17362 points @ 28 PPG
4451 rebounds @ 7 RPG
4364 assists @ 7 APG

[WillC]

:facepalm @ elgin baylor being #13 and Lebron #25



Elgin Baylor
1 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
11 x NBA All-Star
10 x All-NBA 1st team

Stats:
23149 points @ 27 PPG
11463 rebounds @ 13 RPG
3650 assists @ 5 APG

Lebron James
2 x NBA MVP
2 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
7 x All-Star
5 x All-NBA 1st team
3 x All-Defensive 1st team
17 x POTM (most in NBA history)
1 x Gold Medal

Stats:
17362 points @ 28 PPG
4451 rebounds @ 7 RPG
4364 assists @ 7 APG

It's difficult to rank players half-way through their careers, especially when using a number of different sources. Remember, these aren't my own rankings, although I suppose my methodology influenced the rankings somewhat (LeBron would be a lot lower if I didn't weight the rankings more towards the most recently published rankings).

I am sure LeBron will retire ranked ahead of Elgin Baylor on the all-time list. For now, I think it's fair to see him ranked 25th. Trust me, there is enough outrage from people at RealGM that he is above the likes of Stockton and Pippen, let alone if I started moving him ahead of all-time legends like Elgin Baylor.

[pauk]

It's difficult to rank players half-way through their careers, especially when using a number of different sources. Remember, these aren't my own rankings, although I suppose my methodology influenced the rankings somewhat (LeBron would be a lot lower if I didn't weight the rankings more towards the most recently published rankings).

I am sure LeBron will retire ranked ahead of Elgin Baylor on the all-time list. For now, I think it's fair to see him ranked 25th. Trust me, there is enough outrage from people at RealGM that he is above the likes of Stockton and Pippen, let alone if I started moving him ahead of all-time legends like Elgin Baylor.
alright... its no secret i like lebron, but im really honestly trying not to be biased here... if you take a look at what lebron has done already, all his achievements, accomplishments, milestones, records, productions, talent-domination and so on..... we are talking about a player here who has been the best player in the NBA, unlike Baylor or Malone or Stockton or Barkley and so on... its more than enough to be comparable with the likes of Barkley, Malone, Baylor and so on.... he has a case for top 20 easily... its almost like lebron is starting to get ridicilously underrated at least in the all-time ranking sense... (hatred might have something to do it or something, i dont know)...

anyways, sry for bringin lebron up again :D


GOAT: Jordan... and then u can argue about Russell, Wilt and Kareem...

[Vienceslav]

:facepalm @ elgin baylor being #13 and Lebron #25



Elgin Baylor
1 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
11 x NBA All-Star
10 x All-NBA 1st team
thats about it........

Stats:
23149 points @ 27 PPG
11463 rebounds @ 13 RPG
3650 assists @ 5 APG

Lebron James
2 x NBA MVP
2 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
7 x All-Star
5 x All-NBA 1st team
3 x All-Defensive 1st team
17 x POTM (most in NBA history)
1 x Gold Medal

Stats:
17362 points @ 28 PPG
4451 rebounds @ 7 RPG
4364 assists @ 7 APG
There is no way LeBron ends up #25 when it

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=Vienceslav]There is no way LeBron ends up #25 when it

[WillC]

If LeBron got injured and never played again, I agree that he'd still be ranked in the region of 20th best player of all-time (his lack of a championship would keep him from being any higher than that).

But we can't rank him any higher than that UNTIL his career is over (or at least nearly over).

Why?

Well, if you look back at history, there have been some monumentally short-sighted errors in these kind of rankings.

In 1996, Peter Vecsey ranked Penny Hardaway as the 39th best player EVER... ahead of the likes of Dominique Wilkins, Wes Unseld, Nate Thurmond, Patrick Ewing and George Mikan. "I've seen enough already" proclaimed Vecsey.

Meanwhile, in the early 2000s, Elliot Kalb ranked Tracy McGrady as the 41st best player ever ahead of the likes of Clyde Drexler, James Worthy, Robert Parish, etc.

Therefore, it's best to err on the side of caution when ranking active players.

[Vienceslav]

If Lebron were to retire today, he would have a case for top-25 (or higher.) And I suspect that when his career is over, he might be knocking at the door of the all-time top-10.
For someone as talented and gifted as he is ,anything but top 10 is a bit disappointing really.
He will gradually surpass guys like Malone and Barkley and if he wins a few rings he should enter the discussion with the guys currently being voted in the TOP 10 threads.

[DMAVS41]

for me its only mj, russell, and magic

those are my top 3 players ever and my top tier

then i have kareem and wilt in a tier

then shaq/duncan/bird in a tier

then hakeem/kobe/oscar/west in a tier

i didn't see wilt, so i'm just going off opinions and data. i did see kareem. he could definitely be in the top tier, but i honestly just thought magic was better.

[pauk]

If LeBron got injured and never played again, I agree that he'd still be ranked in the region of 20th best player of all-time (his lack of a championship would keep him from being any higher than that).

But we can't rank him any higher than that UNTIL his career is over (or at least nearly over).

Why?

Well, if you look back at history, there have been some monumentally short-sighted errors in these kind of rankings.

In 1996, Peter Vecsey ranked Penny Hardaway as the 39th best player EVER... ahead of the likes of Dominique Wilkins, Wes Unseld, Nate Thurmond, Patrick Ewing and George Mikan. "I've seen enough already" proclaimed Vecsey.

Meanwhile, in the early 2000s, Elliot Kalb ranked Tracy McGrady as the 41st best player ever ahead of the likes of Clyde Drexler, James Worthy, Robert Parish, etc.

Therefore, it's best to err on the side of caution when ranking active players.

Ok, but this is different.... Penny didnt achieve a god damn thing to be above Dominique, Wes Unseld and so on.... you dont see any logic/sense with that....

but Lebron? we are talking about a player who unlike Penny was the best player in the NBA, the most productive-talented-dominant player in the NBA... Barkley, Malone, Baylor, Barry and so on, players who are over him were never the best players in the NBA, Jordan/Wilt was best in their era... and that is the magnitude of player Lebron is and will continue to be...

when you think about that and most importantly at what he has accomplished, after you take a look at what he has already achieved down here, you can see the logic/sense to why nobody should be angry to see him higher than #25 already...





LEBRON JAMES NBA CAREER

2 x MVP
2 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
7 x NBA All-Star
1 x NBA scoring champion
5 x All-NBA 1st team
3 x All-Defensive 1st team
All-Rookie 1st team
1 x Gold Medal
17 x Player of the Month trophies (most in NBA history)
2 x Best NBA Player awards


STATS:

17362 points @ 27.7 PPG (#3 all time)
4451 rebounds @ 7.1 RPG
4364 assists @ 7.0 APG
1079 steals @ 1.7 SPG
532 blocks @ 0.8 BPG
40 total triple doubles

PER - 26.9 (#2 all-time and #3 in Playoffs, after Michael Jordan)


NBA achievements

One of eight players in NBA history to score 2,000 points seven consecutive seasons..[1] Includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Alex English, Karl Malone, Oscar Robertson, Dominique Wilkins.

One of four players in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists in their rookie season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, Tyreke Evans.

One of five players in NBA history to average over 25 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season (achieved this four times).[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this six times), John Havlicek (achieved this twice), Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan.

One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this five times) and Michael Jordan.

One of four player in NBA history to average at least 31 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this twice), Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.

One of two players in NBA history to average at least 27 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for six consecutive seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this eight consecutive times.

One of two players in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds and 500 assists in a season for at least six seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this six times in his career.

One of four players in NBA history to average at least 25 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists for their career.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.

Only player in NBA history to average at least 26 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for their career.[1]
Only player in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds, 500 assists and 100 steals in four straight seasons.[1]
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 10 rebounds and 7 assists in a postseason series.[2] Includes Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird.

One of three players in NBA history to record a triple-double in their playoff debut.[1] Includes Johnny McCarthy and Magic Johnson.

One of two players in NBA history to win the NBA Player of the Month Award four times for two consecutive seasons.[3] Tied with Kevin Garnett, who achieved the same in the 2003-04 NBA Season.

One of four players in NBA history to lead their team in all five major statistical categories (total points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals) in a season (2008–09 season).[4] Includes Dave Cowens (1977–78), Scottie Pippen (1994–95) and Kevin Garnett (2002–03).

1st player in NBA History to receive 2.5 million NBA All-Star votes on 3 separate occasions.
1st player in NBA History to score at least 40 points in the first road playoff game with 41 points at the Washington Wizards on April 28, 2006.
1st player in NBA History to lead the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks for two consecutive seasons (2008–2009, 2009–2010).
1st forward in NBA history to average more than 8.0 assists per game (2009–2010).
2nd place all-time for consecutive 20-point games to start a playoff career with 19.[5] Behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's 27 consecutive games

Most consecutive points scored for a team in a playoff game with 25 straight points at the Detroit Pistons on May 31, 2007.[6]


Youngest player records

James owns numerous NBA "youngest player" records. He is the youngest to:

To be selected #1 overall draft pick (18 years of age).[1]
To be named NBA Rookie of the Year (19 years of age).[1]
To record a triple-double (20 years, 20 days).[1] Recorded 27 points, 11 rebounds, and 10 assists on January 19, 2005 vs. Portland Trail Blazers.
To record a triple-double in the playoffs. (21 years, 113 days).[1] Recorded 32 points, 11 rebounds, and 11 assists on April 22, 2006 vs. Washington Wizards.
To score 30 points in a game (18 years, 334 days).[1] Recorded 33 points on November 29, 2003 vs. Memphis Grizzlies
To score 40 points in a game (19 years, 88 days).[1] Recorded 41 points on March 27, 2004 vs. New Jersey Nets.
To score 2,000 points in a season (2004–05).[1]
To average at least 30 points per game in the NBA.
To be awarded All-NBA honors (2004–05).[1]
To be named to the All-NBA first team (21 years, 138 days).[1]
To win an All-Star Game MVP (21 years, 55 days).[1]
To lead the league in All-Star voting (22 years, 26 days).[1]
To lead the team in PPG (19 years of age).[1]
To score 2,000 points in seven consecutive seasons (26 years of age).[1]
To reach:[1]
Every thousand point milestone from 1,000 points through 17,000 points

[DMAVS41]

For someone as talented and gifted as he is ,anything but top 10 is a bit disappointing really.
He will gradually surpass guys like Malone and Barkley and if he wins a few rings he should enter the discussion with the guys currently being voted in the TOP 10 threads.

barring injury, the absolute worst lebron can wind up at is 12 to 15.....and honestly 15 might be low the way people rank here.

oscar, west, baylor, moses, barkley, dirk, malone, kg, pettit.....all of those guys really won't have much of an argument over lebron if lebron plays 15 years and doesn't drop off dramatically or something.

the way people rank here, lebron will probably be at worst the 12th best player ever.

[catch24]

for me its only mj, russell, and magic

those are my top 3 players ever and my top tier

then i have kareem and wilt in a tier

then shaq/duncan/bird in a tier

then hakeem/kobe/oscar/west in a tier

i didn't see wilt, so i'm just going off opinions and data. i did see kareem. he could definitely be in the top tier, but i honestly just thought magic was better.

I agree with most of this.

But, how is Magic two tiers above Bird when they were practically 1A/B in the 80's?

[WillC]

I actually think LeBron will retire as one of the top 5 players ever (i.e. ahead of Magic, Bird, Shaq and Duncan but below Jordan - right next to Wilt, Russell and Kareem).

However, he's only half-way through his career. He needs to keep up his current level of dominance (and add a few rings) before he reaches the top 5.

I have confidence that it'll happen eventually though. Fans need to be patient.

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe
Magic
Jordan...


_________________________________________

:roll: :roll: :roll: at people saying Russell ,Wilt , Kareem......when they never watched them play:lol


elitists fans = :facepalm





next

[D-Wade316]

Kobe
Magic
Jordan...


_________________________________________

:roll: :roll: :roll: at people saying Russell ,Wilt , Kareem......when they never watched them play:lol


elitists fans = :facepalm





next
:lol

[WillC]

Kobe
Magic
Jordan...


_________________________________________

:roll: :roll: :roll: at people saying Russell ,Wilt , Kareem......when they never watched them play:lol


elitists fans = :facepalm





next

Joker! :bowdown:

[DMAVS41]

I agree with most of this.

But, how is Magic two tiers above Bird when they were practically 1A/B in the 80's?

well, its hard.....simply because i think all the players between magic and bird were better than bird.

wilt, kareem, shaq, duncan....i'd take them all over bird. i wouldn't take any of them over magic.

certainly not a big gap, but i just thought magic was the better player.

[WillC]

well, its hard.....simply because i think all the players between magic and bird were better than bird.

wilt, kareem, shaq, duncan....i'd take them all over bird. i wouldn't take any of them over magic.

certainly not a big gap, but i just thought magic was the better player.

Seems extremely odd that you'd take those players over Bird... but not over Magic.

Bird and Magic were virtually inseparable.

[AlphaWolf24]

Joker! :bowdown:


Jerry West " Kobe is the greatest Laker of alltime"

Magic Johnson " Kobe is the best Laker ever"...



if you are considered the greatest Laker ever by the other 2 greatest Lakers...you have a case...:bowdown:

Oh yeah ...also runaway player of his generation and still going....



recognize game when it's in yo face son!






next

[DMAVS41]

Seems extremely odd that you'd take those players over Bird... but not over Magic.

Bird and Magic were virtually inseparable.

that is certainly the normal opinion. i disagree though.

[rodman91]

Only Jordan.He set the bar too high.

[WillC]

that is certainly the normal opinion. i disagree though.

What exactly are you holding against Bird, then, that you're not holding against Magic? His skin colour? His perceived lack of athleticism? (That never hurt him)

[creepingdeath]

Jerry West " Kobe is the greatest Laker of alltime"

Magic Johnson " Kobe is the best Laker ever"...



if you are considered the greatest Laker ever by the other 2 greatest Lakers...you have a case...:bowdown:

Oh yeah ...also runaway player of his generation and still going....



recognize game when it's in yo face son!






next
http://gifsoup.com/view/38208/jj-cruisin-o.gif

[DMAVS41]

What exactly are you holding against Bird, then, that you're not holding against Magic? His skin colour? His perceived lack of athleticism? (That never hurt him)

i'm not holding anything against bird...well, maybe some of his playoff/finals performances...but that happens to everyone.

i just thought magic was the better player and had the better career. the way people rank here especially i think magic deserves to be higher.

just my opinion though. totally cool with differing opinions, but this is what makes my list..."my list"....magic is one of my top 3 players ever. i'd pick him 3rd in a draft to start a franchise after mj and russell. i'd pick bird 8th.

[G.O.A.T]

[QUOTE=Vienceslav]There is no way LeBron ends up #25 when it

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Kareem then Jordan

[PTB Fan]

:facepalm @ elgin baylor being #13 and Lebron #25



Elgin Baylor
1 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
11 x NBA All-Star
10 x All-NBA 1st team
thats about it........

Stats:
23149 points @ 27 PPG
11463 rebounds @ 13 RPG
3650 assists @ 5 APG

Lebron James
2 x NBA MVP
2 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
7 x All-Star
5 x All-NBA 1st team
3 x All-Defensive 1st team
17 x POTM (most in NBA history)
1 x Gold Medal

Stats:
17362 points @ 28 PPG
4451 rebounds @ 7 RPG
4364 assists @ 7 APG

As of now, Elgin is just plain and simple better. However, i'm sure when 'Bron retires, he'll be ahead of Baylor on the all time list.

[KingBeasley08]

Only Jordan

Everyone else is just :oldlol:

[PTB Fan]

Kobe
Magic
Jordan...


_________________________________________

:roll: :roll: :roll: at people saying Russell ,Wilt , Kareem......when they never watched them play:lol


elitists fans = :facepalm





next


Wow... guys in bolded have no case for GOAT? Seriously? :facepalm

[PTB Fan]

Why is Larry Bird always ranked below Magic?

Back in the 80's, it was a really a tight debate about the best player in the game back then. Larry is seriously overlooked..

[Boston C's]

Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic, these are the guys to me with a case for GOAT some stronger then others

lmaoooo at alphawolf still tryin to suggest kobe has a case and sayin russell wilt and kareem dont

[AlphaWolf24]

http://gifsoup.com/view/38208/jj-cruisin-o.gif



http://f.asset.soup.io/asset/1897/1791_22d7.gif


Jerry West " Kobe is the greatest Laker of alltime"

Magic Johnson " Kobe is the best Laker ever"...



if you are considered the greatest Laker ever by the other 2 greatest Lakers...you have a case...

Oh yeah ...also runaway player of his generation and still going....



recognize game when it's in yo face son!






next

[Asukal]

Everyone in the top 5 has a case for GOAT but Jordan to me is just a tier higher than everyone else. There's just no strong argument you can use to contradict his case as GOAT, everybody else had a weakness. :pimp:

[AlphaWolf24]

Wow... guys in bolded have no case for GOAT? Seriously? :facepalm


I never said they didn't....I'm just laughing at the kids who never watched them play...and then using them over players today, who happen to be much better basketball players...



that is all.....move along now.

[AlphaWolf24]

Everyone in the top 5 has a case for GOAT but Jordan to me is just a tier higher than everyone else. There's just no strong argument you can use to contradict his case as GOAT, everybody else had a weakness. :pimp:


5 Losing seasons(sub .500)...(most of any top 10player by far)..a .417 winning % without his top 50 alltime/Hof teammate...retired in his prime to play baseball....came back and choked in the 2nd round.....retired again and came back at 38 years old and led his team to 2 straight Losing seasons again.


:confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

5 Losing seasons(sub .500)...(most of any top 10player by far)..a .417 winning % without his top 50 alltime/Hof teammate...retired in his prime to play baseball....came back and choked in the 2nd round.....retired again and came back at 38 years old and led his team to 2 straight Losing seasons again.


:confusedshrug:
Kobe Bryant never won without Derek Fisher.

[PTB Fan]

I never said they didn't....I'm just laughing at the kids who never watched them play...and then using them over players today, who happen to be much better basketball players...



that is all.....move along now.

:rolleyes:

But it's your opinion.

[PTB Fan]

5 Losing seasons(sub .500)...(most of any top 10player by far)..a .417 winning % without his top 50 alltime/Hof teammate...retired in his prime to play baseball....came back and choked in the 2nd round.....retired again and came back at 38 years old and led his team to 2 straight Losing seasons again.


:confusedshrug:

You can do better than that.

That Wizards time has no meaning at all. Everything else is like ok... you could come up with better stuff than that.

[AlphaWolf24]

You can do better than that.

That Wizards time has no meaning at all. Everything else is like ok... you could come up with better stuff than that.


Wizards don't have meaning?...why not?..he was starting and taking over 23 shots per game :roll: .....with Jerry Stackhouse (coming off a 30PPG 5reb 3ast season) , Rip Hamilton and larry Hughes....

and he was coming off of 2 years of rest....he also took over a year off in his prime ....he was healthy and rested....


even when he was 22 he still led his team to 3 straight sub .500 seasons....age had little to do with his teams losings...



apply yourself little man...




next

[AlphaWolf24]

:rolleyes:

But it's your opinion.

yes it's my opinion based off of WATCHING and following basketball....


I watched about 8 years of Kareems career and 4 years of it he was near his best quality of play....

I would take Magic , Bird , Kobe and MJ over him all day every day and twice on Sunday.

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe Bryant never won without Derek Fisher.


at least he got a winning season:lol

[AirGauge23]

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic

[B]

That Wizards time has no meaning at all. Everything else is like ok... you could come up with better stuff than that.When discussing career achievements you have to use the entire career. Not pick and choose the good years from the bad. Just like some idiots take Kobe's rookie year out of the convo. Can't do that.

[Odinn]

Kareem, Jordan, Russell, Magic.

If he wouldn't be victim of back injury, Larry Bird can have a true case for goat.

[ThaRegul8r]

Seems extremely odd that you'd take those players over Bird... but not over Magic.

Bird and Magic were virtually inseparable.

"When he added an outside shot and three-point range to his already devastating repertoire, he surpassed Bird."

[L8kersfan222]

Kobe Bryant never won without Derek Fisher.
Fisher isn't hall of fame you said it yourself in that thread you made :facepalm


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6445991&postcount=14
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6446010&postcount=18



Thats one post jake
thats one post jake
thats one post

[AlphaWolf24]

[QUOTE=B

[AlphaWolf24]

Fisher isn't hall of fame you said it yourself in that thread you made :facepalm


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6445991&postcount=14
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6446010&postcount=18



Thats one post jake
thats one post jake
thats one post


ownt

[FF1]

:facepalm @ elgin baylor being #13 and Lebron #25



Elgin Baylor
1 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
11 x NBA All-Star
10 x All-NBA 1st team
thats about it........

Stats:
23149 points @ 27 PPG
11463 rebounds @ 13 RPG
3650 assists @ 5 APG

Lebron James
2 x NBA MVP
2 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
7 x All-Star
5 x All-NBA 1st team
3 x All-Defensive 1st team
17 x POTM (most in NBA history)
1 x Gold Medal

Stats:
17362 points @ 28 PPG
4451 rebounds @ 7 RPG
4364 assists @ 7 APG

First of all the Gold Medal thing is kinda dumb because NBA players didn't compete in the olympics back then. That's like marking Bill Russell down for not having FMVPs. Also, no one cares about All Star MVPs or players of the month.

So.. If his career ended today LeBron has:
1 more MVP.
3 more all-defensive 1st teams.
around 700 more assists.

Baylor has:
4 more all-star appearances.
5 more all nba 1st teams.
around 6000 more points
around 7000 more rebounds.

When it's all said and done, LeBron will probably pass him if he keeps playing like he is and doesn't get injured... but right now, I see nothing wrong with ranking Baylor's career higher.

[WillC]

First of all the Gold Medal thing is kinda dumb because NBA players didn't compete in the olympics back then. That's like marking Bill Russell down for not having FMVPs. Also, no one cares about All Star MVPs or players of the month.

So.. If his career ended today LeBron has:
1 more MVP.
3 more all-defensive 1st teams.
around 700 more assists.

Baylor has:
4 more all-star appearances.
5 more all nba 1st teams.
around 6000 more points
around 7000 more rebounds.

When it's all said and done, LeBron will probably pass him if he keeps playing like he is and doesn't get injured... but right now, I see nothing wrong with ranking Baylor's career higher.

Spot on. Well said.

[Round Mound]

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Big 0

Then the rest Bird, Magic, Barkley, Dr J, Moses Malone and Elgin Baylor

[PTB Fan]

yes it's my opinion based off of WATCHING and following basketball....


I watched about 8 years of Kareems career and 4 years of it he was near his best quality of play....

I would take Magic , Bird , Kobe and MJ over him all day every day and twice on Sunday.

You've seen Kareem probably in his late 30's...Kareem for the bigger part of his illustrated career was a true force.

I'll take a prime KAJ over those named players. There's a respectable case for Kareem as the GOAT, wheres for that's the thing for all named expect Kobe (not there yet).

And he makes bigger impact than compared to them all. It's debatable, but KAJ's play was admirable.

[PTB Fan]

Wizards don't have meaning?...why not?..he was starting and taking over 23 shots per game :roll: .....with Jerry Stackhouse (coming off a 30PPG 5reb 3ast season) , Rip Hamilton and larry Hughes....

and he was coming off of 2 years of rest....he also took over a year off in his prime ....he was healthy and rested....


even when he was 22 he still led his team to 3 straight sub .500 seasons....age had little to do with his teams losings...



apply yourself little man...




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MJ in the Wizards isn't even worth to mention. And i'm still disappointed with you not be able to come up with better stuff against MJ other than the Wizards.

And for the early Bulls team, you can call it a mix of bad teams, strong competition, MJ's liability to use his team mates well (but this leads us back to the fact that they weren't good in his early career) etc.

Still, dude played pretty well. Led the league in scoring, steals, won DPOY and MVP, All-First Team and stuff.

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[FF1]

nevermind

[Asukal]

5 Losing seasons(sub .500)...(most of any top 10player by far)..a .417 winning % without his top 50 alltime/Hof teammate...retired in his prime to play baseball....came back and choked in the 2nd round.....retired again and came back at 38 years old and led his team to 2 straight Losing seasons again.


:confusedshrug:

That's a STRONG argument against him? :confusedshrug:

Why do you come here and always try to make it a Jordan vs Kobe thread? :facepalm

Btw, here's a strong argument against Kobe when compared to Jordan, 6>2. :banana:

[Cali Syndicate]

5 Losing seasons(sub .500)...(most of any top 10player by far)..a .417 winning % without his top 50 alltime/Hof teammate...retired in his prime to play baseball....came back and choked in the 2nd round.....retired again and came back at 38 years old and led his team to 2 straight Losing seasons again.

Actually in 02, Jordan's record was 30-30, including the 10-15 games following the all star break where he was playing injured. Wizards had a winning record and were in playoff contention right before that knee injury.

And why are you using his 86 season when he only played 18 games? He hardly even played in half of those 18 games. But you still blame him for a losing season? :wtf:


Wizards don't have meaning?...why not?..he was starting and taking over 23 shots per game .....with Jerry Stackhouse (coming off a 30PPG 5reb 3ast season) , Rip Hamilton and larry Hughes....

and he was coming off of 2 years of rest....he also took over a year off in his prime ....he was healthy and rested....


even when he was 22 he still led his team to 3 straight sub .500 seasons....age had little to do with his teams losings...

Jordan wasn't even taking 20 shots per game when Stack was on the team. The Wizards probably would have fared better if he did considering Stack is an inefficient shotjacker. And Rip and Stack were never on the same roster. Jordan had Rip in 02 and then Stack in 03. And both those seasons that's practically all he had. Kobe had both Odom and Butler in 05 and he didn't manage a .500 season either. Odom and Butler over Stack and Hughes all day.

And keep in mind Jordan was dealing with new coaches and teammates for his first three seasons. Kobe may have had winning seasons in 06 and 07 with a weak cast but he was in his prime and had Phil.

Context is everything. No?

[oolalaa]

Only 3...

Jordan, Magic and Russell.

I may be one of the few people who think kareem doesn't have a case. If he retired just 3 years earlier, won 2 less rings and wasn't the all time leading scorer would he have a legitimate case for GOAT? And considering the fact he was only the lakers 3rd best player form 86' onwards, i say no.

Bird. Didn't have enough quality years. If his back didn't go out on him then there is no doubt he would have been in the discussion.

Duncan. Wasn't quite dominant enough.

Shaq. Never a great leader/teammate and ultimately, he just didn't care enough to be the GOAT.

Wilt. Similar to shaq. Questionable leader, not the best teammate. He sucked 'in the clutch'. Should have won more rings - the 1968-70 stretch hurt his leagcy for me.

West. The second best post season scorer of all time. To me he's one of the most underrated and arguably one of the unluckiest players ever. Some people ar gue that he's lucky to have even one ring. I say that a combination of russell, wilt and baylor screwed west out of multiple titles long before 1972.

Kobe. Mediocre finals performances. Got carried to 1 of his rings. Selfish at times.

Hakeem. Won his two rings with the goat out of the league and got bounced from the 1st round of the playoffs 4 years in a row.

oscar. not nearly enough team success.

[oolalaa]

5 Losing seasons(sub .500)...(most of any top 10player by far)..a .417 winning % without his top 50 alltime/Hof teammate...retired in his prime to play baseball....came back and choked in the 2nd round.....retired again and came back at 38 years old and led his team to 2 straight Losing seasons again.


:confusedshrug:

One of the dumbest posts i've seen. Congratulations :applause:

[AlphaWolf24]

You've seen Kareem probably in his late 30's...Kareem for the bigger part of his illustrated career was a true force.

I'll take a prime KAJ over those named players. There's a respectable case for Kareem as the GOAT, wheres for that's the thing for all named expect Kobe (not there yet).

And he makes bigger impact than compared to them all. It's debatable, but KAJ's play was admirable.


Kobe is absolutletly "there"....greatest player of his generation...7 NBA Finals 5 X Champion 6th alltime scorer in NBA History ...he is already the greatest Laker of alltime (according to both Magic and West...so it's not just me)


I have been watching the game of basketball religiously since 82'.....only Michael Jordan has shown to posses the same Work ethic , skillset and desire to win and play basketball as much as Kobe....

I would take Kobe over every player since 82' not named Michael Jordan....Magic and West would to...


Kobe = the greatest Laker of alltime , the hardest worker and the greatest player of his generation.....7 NBA Finals in 11 seasons as a starter...


that's real life.....deal wit it..

[AlphaWolf24]

One of the dumbest posts i've seen. Congratulations :applause:


I've seen worse....




like this Bull Sh!t.....down here....


Only 3...

Jordan, Magic and Russell.

I may be one of the few people who think kareem doesn't have a case. If he retired just 3 years earlier, won 2 less rings and wasn't the all time leading scorer would he have a legitimate case for GOAT? And considering the fact he was only the lakers 3rd best player form 86' onwards, i say no.

Bird. Didn't have enough quality years. If his back didn't go out on him then there is no doubt he would have been in the discussion.

Duncan. Wasn't quite dominant enough.

Shaq. Never a great leader/teammate and ultimately, he just didn't care enough to be the GOAT.

Wilt. Similar to shaq. Questionable leader, not the best teammate. He sucked 'in the clutch'. Should have won more rings - the 1968-70 stretch hurt his leagcy for me.

West. The second best post season scorer of all time. To me he's one of the most underrated and arguably one of the unluckiest players ever. Some people ar gue that he's lucky to have even one ring. I say that a combination of russell, wilt and baylor screwed west out of multiple titles long before 1972.

Kobe. Mediocre finals performances. Got carried to 1 of his rings. Selfish at times.:rolleyes:

Hakeem. Won his two rings with the goat out of the league and got bounced from the 1st round of the playoffs 4 years in a row.

oscar. not nearly enough team success.


that's original






















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[oolalaa]

I've seen worse....




like this Bull Sh!t.....down here....




that's original






















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Are you related to kobe?

[AngelEyes]

Are you related to kobe?

It's Kobe's mistress

[ukplayer4]

alphawolf is out doing even himself in this thread-
"jordan had jerry stackhouse"
"he was healthy and rested"
"age had little to do with it".
using the 86 season when my played 18 games.
counting years when they made the playoffs as failing, loosing/bad seasons


classic stuff from alpha :applause:

[AlphaWolf24]

Are you related to kobe?


Nope..just agree with Jerry West and Magic....that is all.


and Phil Jackson "Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached"



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[ZaaaaaH]

First of all the Gold Medal thing is kinda dumb because NBA players didn't compete in the olympics back then. That's like marking Bill Russell down for not having FMVPs. Also, no one cares about All Star MVPs or players of the month.

So.. If his career ended today LeBron has:
1 more MVP.
3 more all-defensive 1st teams.
around 700 more assists.

Baylor has:
4 more all-star appearances.
5 more all nba 1st teams.
around 6000 more points
around 7000 more rebounds.

When it's all said and done, LeBron will probably pass him if he keeps playing like he is and doesn't get injured... but right now, I see nothing wrong with ranking Baylor's career higher.


LeBron fans think he is already a Champion with 300000 Points and Rank him at 15.:facepalm

Just like he said Most likely he will definitely get their but not yet stop thinking of him so highly.

[Myth]

Wizards don't have meaning?...why not?..he was starting and taking over 23 shots per game :roll: .....with Jerry Stackhouse (coming off a 30PPG 5reb 3ast season) , Rip Hamilton and larry Hughes....




Lucky for them to have their 4 best players be shooting guards :lol

[ukplayer4]

Lucky for them to have their 4 best players be shooting guards :lol


yep, that and also they didnt play on the same team hamilton got traded for stackhouse.

[oolalaa]

Nope..just agree with Jerry West and Magic....that is all.


and Phil Jackson "Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached"



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You give far too much weight to what former players say.

Magic is not going to call himself the greatest laker of all time. Do you have any idea how arrogant it would make him look? and being the hyper competitive guy he is, there is no way he would say kareem is the greatest laker ever either. That would basically be like admitting that he was second fiddle to kareem.

West has a vested interest in calling kobe the greatest laker ever. He brought him to the lakers!!

And phil jackson calling kobe 'the best allaround player I ever coached' is not the same as calling him the best/greatest player he ever coached. If you asked him that, he would say jordan.


oh and i heard a rumour that you are kobes mistress. Can you confirm this?

[ThaRegul8r]

I may be one of the few people who think kareem doesn't have a case. If he retired just 3 years earlier, won 2 less rings and wasn't the all time leading scorer would he have a legitimate case for GOAT?

Or if Kareem got his way and received the trade he wanted:

[QUOTE][I]Abdul-Jabbar wants trade

NEW YORK

[Nevaeh]

alphawolf is out doing even himself in this thread-
"jordan had jerry stackhouse"
"he was healthy and rested"
"age had little to do with it".
using the 86 season when my played 18 games.
counting years when they made the playoffs as failing, loosing/bad seasons


classic stuff from alpha :applause:

This is the one that always gets me. But hey, all bets are off when you're trying to prop up a former side-kick to GOAT status :cheers:

[oolalaa]

Or if Kareem got his way and received the trade he wanted:

Wow, thanks for that. Fascinating stuff. It would have been interesting to see him move to the knicks and play with bernard king. It's certainly possible they would have won a championship...

[PTB Fan]

Kobe is absolutletly "there"....greatest player of his generation...7 NBA Finals 5 X Champion 6th alltime scorer in NBA History ...he is already the greatest Laker of alltime (according to both Magic and West...so it's not just me)

He isn't better than Duncan or Shaq. Next.



I have been watching the game of basketball religiously since 82'.....only Michael Jordan has shown to posses the same Work ethic , skillset and desire to win and play basketball as much as Kobe....

Kobe's competitiveness is legendary. But he isn't the first person to be just as competitive. Jordan, West, Bird just to name few are there as well


I would take Kobe over every player since 82' not named Michael Jordan....Magic and West would to...

I wouldn't. Key difference between the two of us. Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Bird, Duncan... these guys would be my choice over Kobe


Kobe = the greatest Laker of alltime , the hardest worker and the greatest player of his generation.....7 NBA Finals in 11 seasons as a starter...

Magic=GOAT Laker. Shaq and Duncan best players of their generation (included Kobe), Russell had 12 Finals as a starter...


that's real life.....deal wit it..

yup, that's life.

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[AlphaWolf24]

oolalaa -You give far too much weight to what former players say.

Magic is not going to call himself the greatest laker of all time. Do you have any idea how arrogant it would make him look? and being the hyper competitive guy he is, there is no way he would say kareem is the greatest laker ever either. That would basically be like admitting that he was second fiddle to kareem.

West also has a vested interest in calling kobe the greatest laker ever. He brought him to the lakers!!

And phil jackson calling kobe 'the best allaround player I ever coached' is not the same as calling him the best/greatest player he ever coached. If you asked him that, he would say jordan.

I'm putting weight on what I watched....and understood....

The Greatest Coach , GM and PG only echo what I already know....



oh and i heard a rumour that you are kobes mistress. Can you confirm this?

(really?....ok kid I'll play)....no i can't "confirm" this.....but even if I was....I still wouldn't suck as hard as you at understanding basketball players career lengths and strengths

[AlphaWolf24]

PTB Fan]He isn't better than Duncan or Shaq. Next.


yes he is...and fan majority already voted him the best player by a landslide...

recap - 99% of the basketball community disagrees with you


Kobe's competitiveness is legendary. But he isn't the first person to be just as competitive. Jordan, West, Bird just to name few are there as well


again....West said Kobe is the greatest Laker ever



I wouldn't. Key difference between the two of us. Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Bird, Duncan... these guys would be my choice over Kobe


again..the greatest GM ever disagrees with you....as does the majority...

recap = you we tall did



Magic=GOAT Laker. Shaq and Duncan best players of their generation (included Kobe), Russell had 12 Finals as a starter...

recap = I hope you are not really we tall did..if so ..I apologize




yup, that's life.

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unfortunately your mom said the same thing.....should have swallowed.

[ShaqAttack3234]

And phil jackson calling kobe 'the best allaround player I ever coached' is not the same as calling him the best/greatest player he ever coached. If you asked him that, he would say jordan.

And Phil's actual quote as that it was the best a player of his has played with an overall court game. The entire quote proves that he wasn't calling Kobe the best because he calls another player the best in the same quote, but of course, AlphaWolf loves to misrepresent things to prop up Kobe.


"I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."

So there you have it, in the same quote Phil calls Jordan the greatest player he ever had. So obviously the quote is not what AlphaWolf is trying to pass it off as.

[AlphaWolf24]

SnackAttack3234]And Phil's actual quote as that it was the best a player of his has played with an overall court game. The entire quote proves that he wasn't calling Kobe the best because he calls another player the best in the same quote, but of course, AlphaWolf loves to misrepresent things to prop up Kobe.


Nope....wrong again Snack attack......Phil Clearly says plain as day Kobe is the best overall player he ever coached....Phil then says he had MJ who he also considered the best player....but he never asked MJ to do the things he asked of Kobe... Phil was simply explaining why he said Kobe was an overall better player..



So there you have it, in the same quote Phil calls Jordan the greatest player he ever had. So obviously the quote is not what AlphaWolf is trying to pass it off as.

Phil never asked MJ (who he also considered the best...along with Kobe) to do the things Kobe did....

all your copy and pasting , plagiarizing and putting your hopes in the Sacramento Bee has gotten you twisted little homey...comprehend much??


then again.....I know how Buffalo is ...not really the sharpest lot of fans...







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[ShaqAttack3234]

Nope....wrong again Snack attack......Phil Clearly says plain as day Kobe is the best overall player he ever coached....Phil then says he had MJ who he also considered the best player....but he never asked MJ to do the things he asked of Kobe... Phil was simply explaining why he said Kobe was an overall better player..



Phil never asked MJ (who he also considered the best...along with Kobe) to do the things Kobe did....

all your copy and pasting , plagiarizing and putting your hopes in the Sacramento Bee has gotten you twisted little homey...comprehend much??


then again.....I know how Buffalo is ...not really the sharpest lot of fans...







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:oldlol: No, the quote is there and everyone else can read it. I'm not from Buffalo either....

He never says Kobe is the best overall player he's coached. He's simply saying that Kobe was doing something that he never asked Jordan to do and directly says that Jordan is the best he's coached in that quote. He's referring to Kobe's playmaking.

It's not complicated.

[RRR3]

LOL I just had to post this right now perfect situation :roll:


:oldlol: That's just the creature known as Alphawolf, he comes out every now and then to look for any of Kobe's jizz that he can find as it's the only type of nourishment he can survive on. Legend has it that he saw Kobe's dick as a kid and he went insane. Now he usually alone fantasizing about it saying "The precious, the precious" to himself. His other time is spent thinking of ways to give Kobe more credit than he deserves and angle for a way to justify him as the GOAT. This includes using quotes out of context as well as falses stats and clinging to the slightest bit of evidence that can back up his statements about Kobe while ignoring the majority evidence which doesn't(see his love for that 2001 ESPN article). Along the way, he's developed a small cult following, mostly 14 year olds such as The Legend 24 and several others.

[oolalaa]

And Phil's actual quote as that it was the best a player of his has played with an overall court game. The entire quote proves that he wasn't calling Kobe the best because he calls another player the best in the same quote, but of course, AlphaWolf loves to misrepresent things to prop up Kobe.



So there you have it, in the same quote Phil calls Jordan the greatest player he ever had. So obviously the quote is not what AlphaWolf is trying to pass it off as.

:rockon:

Kobe stans are funny :lol

[AlphaWolf24]

SnackAttack3234]:oldlol: No, the quote is there and everyone else can read it. I'm not from Buffalo either....

close enough...that sh!thole reflects all of Upstate anyways..:confusedshrug:


He never says Kobe is the best overall player he's coached. He's simply saying that Kobe was doing something that he never asked Jordan to do and directly says that Jordan is the best he's coached in that quote. He's referring to Kobe's playmaking.



"I think it's the best (Kobe's game)that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. ( yes...plain as day he says Kobe's game is overall better then Jordan's..)

I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. (Phil explaining why Kobe is better)

That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider( explaining how he considered MJ as the best just as he does Kobe) the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. ..(again saying he asked Kobe to do more because of Kobe's superior skillset...)

I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy
( again explaining why Kobe is better)....

plain as day he says/explains why he thinks Kobe is better..




It's not complicated.



for you it is...:lol




go read the Bee son.....









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[AlphaWolf24]

LOL I just had to post this right now perfect situation...I cannot think on my own...rather then come up with my own diss , I will copy and paste someone els'es.....just like I ask everyone else to do stuff while I never do sh!t....oh yeah...AlphaWolf gave me a link so I can draw now....because I'm on a MAC and I'm to stupid to find a paint program by myself....yay!! :roll:


Dis fool

[oolalaa]

close enough...that sh!thole reflects all of Upstate anyways..:confusedshrug:




"I think it's the best (Kobe's game)that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. ( yes...plain as day he says Kobe's game is overall better then Jordan's..)

I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. (Phil explaining why Kobe is better)

That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider( explaining how he considered MJ as the best just as he does Kobe) the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. ..(again saying he asked Kobe to do more because of Kobe's superior skillset...)

I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy
( again explaining why Kobe is better)....

plain as day he says/explains why he thinks Kobe is better..






for you it is...:lol




go read the Bee son.....









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Phil jackson stated - " That's the greatest player that I've ever had".

HE WAS REFERRING TO MICHAEL JORDAN!!!!!!!!

Holy moly.

[Myth]

That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider( explaining how he considered MJ as the best just as he does Kobe) the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. ..(again saying he asked Kobe to do more because of Kobe's superior skillset...)



Do you know how to comprehend what you just wrote? "That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms." <- That is saying that even though he considered Jordan the greatest ever, he never asked him to do what he is asking of Kobe. And he asked Kobe to do more because the Lakers needed Kobe to do more, not because Kobe was superior to Jordan.

[MichaelCheazley]

Reading comprehension FTL. Smh.

[AlphaWolf24]

Phil jackson stated - " That's the greatest player that I've ever had".

HE WAS REFERRING TO MICHAEL JORDAN!!!!!!!!

Holy moly.


so what about the whole...

"That I could consider the best in the game"..."and I never asked him to do the things I asked of Kobe"

Cot damn....he plain as day says he considered MJ just as he does Kobe the best players in the game.....here he is praising Kobe (especially after he called Kobe the best player in the game in 2001)...and you don't think he considers Kobe the best player in the game??

example

1990's - This Ferrari F50 GT is the best/fastest car I ever seen

2000's - This Bugatti Renaissance GT is the best overall car I ever seen....now the Ferrari F50 GT is the best car I ever had, that i consider the best, just like this Bugatti...but this Bugatti is just far superior in every way possible...

[AlphaWolf24]

Do you know how to comprehend what you just wrote? "That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms." <- That is saying that even though he considered Jordan the greatest ever, he never asked him to do what he is asking of Kobe. And he asked Kobe to do more because the Lakers needed Kobe to do more, not because Kobe was superior to Jordan.


"I think Kobe's game the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game"

" that I could consider the greatest player in the game, "

he is clearly saying he considered Kobe the best...just as he did with MJ...



how you guy's don't see that is beyond me???

[AlphaWolf24]

Reading comprehension FTL. Smh.


I know....Jordan stans are silly...


yeah I know

[L8kersfan222]

Alpha murdering these idiots.

[Leviathon1121]

And Phil's actual quote as that it was the best a player of his has played with an overall court game. The entire quote proves that he wasn't calling Kobe the best because he calls another player the best in the same quote, but of course, AlphaWolf loves to misrepresent things to prop up Kobe.



So there you have it, in the same quote Phil calls Jordan the greatest player he ever had. So obviously the quote is not what AlphaWolf is trying to pass it off as.

What is the context of this quote? Is it referring to a singular game or series or something, because that is what it sounds like based on the opening sentence.

In any case, I can not find this "Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached" as Alpha posted.

Quote got lost, here it is

"I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."

[KingBeasley08]

why niggahs spoutin kobe's name? this is about da greatest player of all time, not the greatest copycat eva

[AlphaWolf24]

What is the context of this quote? Is it referring to a singular game or series or something, because that is what it sounds like based on the opening sentence.

In any case, I can not find this "Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached" as Alpha posted.

Quote got lost, here it is


He was asked by a reporter to compare his Bull's vs Lakers and Kobe vs Jordan in June 2001

"The symmetry is so impressive that Jackson inevitably is asked to compare this team to his Bulls dynasty. If the angle is premature--don't the Lakers have to win six titles first?--even Benny the Bull would admit concern that Shaq and Kobe might be too much for You Know Who in a seven-game series. Not that Jackson is avoiding the comparisons. It was inevitable he'd say something, in his purple-and-gold euphoria, to tweak what he left behind in Chicago. But Michael Jordan? In a chat about Bryant, Jackson said he has displayed a better "overall" game than any other player he has coached. That would include, um, Jordan. "It's the best I've ever seen a player of mine with an overall court game," he says. "I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it."


"It's.....the...best....I.....ever......seen......a ...player.....of...mine.."....


don't know about you...but to me that means Kobe's as a overall player> MJ





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[Odinn]

I may be one of the few people who think kareem doesn't have a case. If he retired just 3 years earlier, won 2 less rings and wasn't the all time leading scorer would he have a legitimate case for GOAT? And considering the fact he was only the lakers 3rd best player form 86' onwards, i say no.
If 1985-86 season would be Kareem's last season;

His career numbers;
35108 points (all-time scoring leader until 2002-12-18)
16105 rebounds
5248 asissts
1025 steals
2915 blocks
2087 turnovers

26.4 ppg
12.1 rpg
4.0 apg
1.0 spg
2.9 bpg
3.0 tpg

0.562 fg%
0.720 ft%


His playoff numbers;
4912 points
2168 rebounds
676 asissts
161 steals
393 blocks
339 turnovers

27.3 ppg
12.0 rpg
3.8 apg
1.2 spg
2.8 bpg
3.0 tpg

0.541 fg%
0.732 ft%


His accomplishments;
6x MVP (6.203 total MVP share, only 2 times left out top5)
2x FMVP
4x NBA Champion (in 1971 and 1980, clear-cut best player on a championship team and "arguably" best player in 1982 and 1985)
16x All-Star
10x All-NBA First Team
5x All-NBA Second Team
5x All-NBA Defensive First Team
6x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
NBA Rookie of The Year
3x NCAA Champion
3x NCAA MOP
Naismith College Player of the Year



In conclusion; his last 3 years only lowered his career averages. He still would have a legitimate case for GOAT if he was retired after 1985-86 season.

[Asukal]

Kobe is the GOAT!!! Phil Jackson said so! OMG! OMG! OMG!

What the hell is wrong with you people?! Phil said Kobe is the best!!!!!

Kobe=GOAT!!!!!!

Btw, Alphawolf Phil also said you are Kobe's greatest mistress. Way to go gay boy! :applause:

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe is the GOAT!!! Phil Jackson said so! OMG! OMG! OMG!

What the hell is wrong with you people?! Phil said Kobe is the best!!!!!

Kobe=GOAT!!!!!!

Btw, Alphawolf Phil also said you are Kobe's greatest mistress. Way to go gay boy! :applause:


a mistress still don't choke as hard as your boy Bron...



deal wit it..

[Asukal]

a mistress still don't choke as hard as your boy Bron...



deal wit it..

Lawl when did I become Lechoke's fanboy? I was so happy when Dallas beat his sorry ass and swept your man. :rockon:

[oolalaa]

If 1985-86 season would be Kareem's last season;

His career numbers;
35108 points (all-time scoring leader until 2002-12-18)
16105 rebounds
5248 asissts
1025 steals
2915 blocks
2087 turnovers

26.4 ppg
12.1 rpg
4.0 apg
1.0 spg
2.9 bpg
3.0 tpg

0.562 fg%
0.720 ft%


His playoff numbers;
4912 points
2168 rebounds
676 asissts
161 steals
393 blocks
339 turnovers

27.3 ppg
12.0 rpg
3.8 apg
1.2 spg
2.8 bpg
3.0 tpg

0.541 fg%
0.732 ft%


His accomplishments;
6x MVP (6.203 total MVP share, only 2 times left out top5)
2x FMVP
4x NBA Champion (in 1971 and 1980, clear-cut best player on a championship team and "arguably" best player in 1982 and 1985)
16x All-Star
10x All-NBA First Team
5x All-NBA Second Team
5x All-NBA Defensive First Team
6x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
NBA Rookie of The Year
3x NCAA Champion
3x NCAA MOP
Naismith College Player of the Year



In conclusion; his last 3 years only lowered his career averages. He still would have a legitimate case for GOAT if he was retired after 1985-86 season.

In 10 years, and in a relatively weak era, kareem made 2 finals, won 1 ring and didn't even make the playoffs for two straight years.

This is the real sticking point for me. If magic didn't come along at just the right time, how many rings would kareem have? Impossible to say, but my guess is no more than two (if he went to the knicks in 83/84, a ring was certainly a possibility, though bernard king was no magic johnson).

This has to be taken into account. I think his legacy got saved by magic somewhat...

[AlphaWolf24]

Lawl when did I become Lechoke's fanboy? I was so happy when Dallas beat his sorry ass and swept your man. :rockon:


oh yeah..I forgot ...Kobe detractors don't have a favorite player.....:rolleyes:


because they know Kobe sh!ts on all of dem...


and Lakers finally lost...:confusedshrug: can't win every year:lol

[KingBeasley08]

cant get any respect if u wasnt finals mvp everytime u won da title like my nig jordan. sorry kobe

[Asukal]

oh yeah..I forgot ...Kobe detractors don't have a favorite player.....:rolleyes:


because they know Kobe sh!ts on all of dem...


and Lakers finally lost...:confusedshrug: can't win every year:lol

Lawl my favorite player in the league is Dirk, always has been since 2006. I don't even hate Kobe or Lebron, so I'm not a Kobe detractor. You only think I am because I don't agree with your notion that Kobe is the GOAT. :rockon:

[AlphaWolf24]

Lawl my favorite player in the league is Dirk, always has been since 2006. I don't even hate Kobe or Lebron, so I'm not a Kobe detractor. You only think I am because I don't agree with your notion that Kobe is the GOAT. :rockon:


Dirk??:rolleyes: :oldlol:


ok..


and U talkin bout getting swept in the playoff's:roll: :roll:



and I aint even saying Kobe is GOAT...but he has a case...and compared to Dirk.....it aint even close




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[Asukal]

Dirk??:rolleyes: :oldlol:


ok..


and U talkin bout getting swept in the playoff's:roll: :roll:



and I aint even saying Kobe is GOAT...but he has a case...and compared to Dirk.....it aint even close




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Lawl this *****! Did I ever say Dirk is better than Kobe? He's my favorite current player that's all. :banana:

[AlphaWolf24]

Lawl this *****! Did I ever say Dirk is better than Kobe? He's my favorite current player that's all. :banana:


Oh trust me....I know you didn't say Dork is better....:lol

[jlauber]

Can someone explain what CRITERIA is being used?

Anyone can just throw out names, but what are we basing this on?

I'm sure someone will bring Hakeem into this topic (if they haven't already), and I would love to read what criteria he brings to the table.

[ThaRegul8r]

Can someone explain what CRITERIA is being used?

Anyone can just throw out names, but what are we basing this on?

GOAT = whomever the poster's favorite player is.

I thought this would be obvious.

[jlauber]

GOAT = whomever the poster's favorite player is.

I thought this would be obvious.

I think the two that really have legitimate cases for the GOAT are Russell and MJ. Magic, Wilt, and Kareem are certainly in the discussion. And perhaps some educated observers might even include Shaq or Duncan.

But, if we are truly ranking the GOAT candidates, there cannot be more than a handful. And with those first five I mentioned, you can come up with legitimate CRITERIA to make an argument for each of them.

Unfortunately, there will be the Kobe, Bird, and Hakeem fans who pop in making their claims, but I have yet to find any criteria which would put them in these GOAT discussions.

[Odinn]

In 10 years, and in a relatively weak era, kareem made 2 finals, won 1 ring and didn't even make the playoffs for two straight years.

This is the real sticking point for me. If magic didn't come along at just the right time, how many rings would kareem have? Impossible to say, but my guess is no more than two (if he went to the knicks in 83/84, a ring was certainly a possibility, though bernard king was no magic johnson).

This has to be taken into account. I think his legacy got saved by magic somewhat...
What if Jordan didn't have the support of Stern and Nike then?

Kareem was the best player in the league for a longer period than anyone else in history.

Also Magic benefitted Kareem at the first. Magic was the one who "wants play along with the best player".

And when we leave out the last 3 years of Kareem, he'd still have a serious case for GOAT.

[Myth]

"I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."

Let's break this down with accurate interpretations:

"I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it."
-This is about Kobe. He never said Kobe is the best player, but he is saying he that Kobe was playing more well rounded than anybody (including Jordan). This is similar to how somebody could say that KG is more well rounded than Shaq, but you'd be insane to say prime KG was "better" than Shaq.

"I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled."
-This is about Jordan. It says that even though Jordan is the greatest player ever, Phil only asked him to be a playmaker when double or triple teamed.

"But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."
-This is when he goes back to talking about Kobe's play making.



If you can't understand that, then you don't understand the English language.

[L8kersfan222]

since 2006

what a lame bro

[ShaqAttack3234]

close enough...that sh!thole reflects all of Upstate anyways..:confusedshrug:

And that's fine, because I'm not from upstate NY either.

But my job is done. I posted the entire quote so everyone knows what Phil actually said, which of course, is different than what you were claiming he said.

[L8kersfan222]

And that's fine, because I'm not from upstate NY either.

But my job is done. I posted the entire quote so everyone knows what Phil actually said, which of course, is different than what you were claiming he said.


says the gook that has lebron at #6 on his all-time list, dunks must get you wet bro

[ShaqAttack3234]

says the gook that has lebron at #6 on his all-time list, dunks must get you wet bro

Lebron isn't even top 10 on my list. Gook? :oldlol: I'm Irish/Italian. Nice try, though.

[D-Wade316]

Lebron isn't even top 10 on my list. Gook? :oldlol: I'm Irish/Italian. Nice try, though.
Troll owned. :rockon:

[L8kersfan222]

Lebron isn't even top 10 on my list. Gook? :oldlol: I'm Irish/Italian. Nice try, though.
Let me gauge your homerism, bring out your inner demons, how does it feel when I say,

The NBA is as close to an agreement as Lebron's hairline is with his eyebrows.

does that make u :mad: ?

[D-Wade316]

Let me gauge your homerism, bring out your inner demons, how does it feel when I say,

The NBA is as close to an agreement as Lebron's hairline is with his eyebrows.

does that make u :mad: ?
:lol What the hell is wrong with this dude.

[L8kersfan222]

I printed this one out and traced it on paint. The colors looks realistic cause i clicked on a different colour each pixel.
http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv104/mariochalmers/michael_beasley1-1.jpg

lmao jk
Are you serious? :rockon:

Whoa this still burning you D-wade?
Have a seat kid lmbo

[millwad]

:lol What the hell is wrong with this dude.

He is more normal than what you'll ever be..:facepalm

[D-Wade316]

He is more normal than what you'll ever be..:facepalm
:rolleyes:

[D-Wade316]

Whoa this still burning you D-wade?
Have a seat kid lmbo
:eek: I'm so shocked. :rolleyes:

[L8kersfan222]

:eek: I;m so schocked. :rolleyes:

Fvcked up his spelling lmao hes shook

[D-Wade316]

Fvcked up his spelling lmao hes shook
:cheers:

[AlphaWolf24]

And that's fine, because I'm not from upstate NY either.

But my job is done. I posted the entire quote so everyone knows what Phil actually said, which of course, is different than what you were claiming he said.


You posted the quote....and sure enough everyone saw that Phil Said exactly what I claimed...


Then I broke it down Barney style for all y'all haterz.....then all I heard was *crickets*...

real fans can clearly see that Phil said Kobe is a better allaround player....



and now you say you aint from N.Y.??...oh yeah..that's right......because right now you definitely in my pocket.


you have nothing here little man......




next

[ShaqAttack3234]

You posted the quote....and sure enough everyone saw that Phil Said exactly what I claimed...


Then I broke it down Barney style for all y'all haterz.....then all I heard was *crickets*...

real fans can clearly see that Phil said Kobe is a better allaround player....



and now you say you aint from N.Y.??...oh yeah..that's right......because right now you definitely in my pocket.


you have nothing here little man......




next

No, what actually happened(and you can see it right in this thread) is people were astounded at your reading comprehension skills or lack thereof and your desperate attempt to prop up Kobe.

I am from New York, never claimed upstate, though. You assumed I was from upstate NY for some unknown reason after your incorrect assumptions that I was from California and Orlando.

[ukplayer4]

"I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."

Let's break this down with accurate interpretations:

"I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it."
-This is about Kobe. He never said Kobe is the best player, but he is saying he that Kobe was playing more well rounded than anybody (including Jordan). This is similar to how somebody could say that KG is more well rounded than Shaq, but you'd be insane to say prime KG was "better" than Shaq.

"I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled."
-This is about Jordan. It says that even though Jordan is the greatest player ever, Phil only asked him to be a playmaker when double or triple teamed.

"But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."
-This is when he goes back to talking about Kobe's play making.



If you can't understand that, then you don't understand the English language.


:applause:

[ukplayer4]

Let me gauge your homerism, bring out your inner demons, how does it feel when I say,

The NBA is as close to an agreement as Lebron's hairline is with his eyebrows.

does that make u :mad: ?



:facepalm damn this is one retarded kid, im not sure even alpha wants this idiot on his side.

[AlphaWolf24]

No, what actually happened(and you can see it right in this thread) is people were astounded at your reading comprehension skills or lack thereof and your desperate attempt to prop up Kobe.

I am from New York, never claimed upstate, though. You assumed I was from upstate NY for some unknown reason after your incorrect assumptions that I was from California and Orlando.


:lol ...this is hilarious....everyone see's first hand your Bull sh!zznit

I posted this -
Nope..just agree with Jerry West and Magic....that is all.


and Phil Jackson "Kobe is the best allaround player I ever coached"



next



then you got so mad you came here and posted the whole quote!!:roll: ....

witch plain as day Phil says over and over Kobe game is overall better then Jordans....(yes who he "considered the best player he had"....but Phil says again....he asked more of Kobe because like Phil said earlier in the quote...."Kobe is the best Overall player he has ever coached")




everyone see's you .....you have nothing.....in fact plain as day you got merked.



and you never left N.Y. but you quoting the Sacramento Bee:roll:

I thought you were a Hill Billy from CowTown:confusedshrug: ...turns out you never even been outta your city.....

proving again you are full of sh!t...




2EZ




Next

[ukplayer4]

:roll: :roll:

myth even explained it to you in more basic terms and you still cant grasp the quote. i dont even think your as stupid as your pretending to be.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:lol ...this is hilarious....everyone see's first hand your Bull sh!zznit

I posted this -



then you got so mad you came here and posted the whole quote!!:roll: ....

witch plain as day Phil says over and over Kobe game is overall better then Jordans....(yes who he "considered the best player he had"....but Phil says again....he asked more of Kobe because like Phil said earlier in the quote...."Kobe is the best Overall player he has ever coached")




everyone see's you .....you have nothing.....in fact plain as day you got merked.



and you never left N.Y. but you quoting the Sacramento Bee:roll:

I thought you were a Hill Billy from CowTown:confusedshrug: ...turns out you never even been outta your city.....

proving again you are full of sh!t...




2EZ




Next

:oldlol: This denial is funny. What is it about Kobe that makes you so desperate to twist everything in his favor? Are you hoping that Kobe will read this and you'll get to meet him or something? The funny thing is, Kobe would probably think you're as much of a loser as we do.

And the Sacramento paper was just one of more than a half dozen that i Posted to prove a point.

I don't read their paper, I found that and the other links in a google news archive search. I'm not sure why you're so fixated on that. You've brought it up at least a dozen times.

[AlphaWolf24]

:roll: :roll:

myth even explained it to you in more basic terms and you still cant grasp the quote. i dont even think your as stupid as your pretending to be.


"I think Kobe's game is the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game"


2EZ



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[L8kersfan222]

1. Bill Russell
2. Kareem
3. Jordan
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Lebron James
7. Barkley
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe


how we supposed to take you seriously idiot

[ukplayer4]

who had a better overall court game kg or shaq?

[AlphaWolf24]

:oldlol: This denial is funny. What is it about Kobe that makes you so desperate to twist everything in his favor? Are you hoping that Kobe will read this and you'll get to meet him or something? The funny thing is, Kobe would probably think you're as much of a loser as we do.

And the Sacramento paper was just one of more than a half dozen that i Posted to prove a point.

I don't read their paper, I found that and the other links in a google news archive search. I'm not sure why you're so fixated on that. You've brought it up at least a dozen times.


:lol U the one that came here and got all mad ...and tried to post the whole quote Hopeing it would prove something...


made you look even dumber....Phil said 3 times in that quote that Kobe is an overall better player...


and I said the Bee....because I know all about it and have read it many times.....you just posting stuff you have no knowledge about that you found on the webz...

the Bee is garbage and full of hack writers ...plus Cowtown hates L.A....

don't speak of what you not know of little homey.....

[jlauber]

I'm a huge Kobe fan, and I have never believed that MJ was the clear-cut GOAT either, but what criteria exists that would rank Kobe over MJ (or even some other's?)

[AlphaWolf24]

how we supposed to take you seriously idiot


the kid copy's and paste's hack articles about basketball.....then plays it off like he wrote em and knows about it...:roll:


I called him on his BS so many times that he gets mad when I post the truth...


and Kobe winning 2 more Titles has made him all cranky.....no real fans take anything he says seriously anyways..:confusedshrug:

[ShaqAttack3234]

how we supposed to take you seriously idiot

When did I post that? Show a link. I'm 99% sure I never posted that because while my rankings have changed. I've never had the players remotely similar to that order.

Why would I rank Lebron over Shaq? Why Magic over Bird when I've argued that Bird was better countless times on this board?


:lol U the one that came here and got all mad ...and tried to post the whole quote Hopeing it would prove something...


made you look even dumber....Phil said 3 times in that quote that Kobe is an overall better player...


and I said the Bee....because I know all about it and have read it many times.....you just posting stuff you have no knowledge about that you found on the webz...

the Bee is garbage and full of hack writers ...plus Cowtown hates L.A....

don't speak of what you not know of little homey.....

You missed the point completely. I posted quotes from a bunch of different papers/writers from 2001 to show that your revisionist history of who most considered the best in the league in '01 was incorrect. How good the writers were was not the point. The discussion was about the general perception at the time. And no, my posts aren't plagiarized either. If I quote a source, I mention the source.

I'm not making myself look stupid, I'm continuing to expose you. Me including the entire quote has caused others to laugh at the way you tried to twist it. I'm not sure what world you're living in.

[AlphaWolf24]

I'm a huge Kobe fan, and I have never believed that MJ was the clear-cut GOAT either, but what criteria exists that would rank Kobe over MJ (or even some other's?)


hmm...considering Kobe is still playing ....if he can win 2 - 3 more Titles Like MJ did at similar ages.....


then easily Winning and Longevity would make Kobe a better player.

[AlphaWolf24]

SnackAttack3234


You missed the point completely. I posted quotes from a bunch of different papers/writers from 2001 to show that your revisionist history of who most considered the best in the league in '01 was incorrect.

I'm not making myself look stupid, I'm continuing to expose you. Me including the entire quote has caused others to laugh at the way you tried to twist it. I'm not sure what world you're living in.

BullSh!t again..i posted the actual article from ESPN and Sporting News and SLAM saying Kobe was the best player in the NBA in 2001...

this is after I said many in the basketball community thought of Kobe as the best allaround player in the NBA...and then you got all mad again and said it wasn't true...:lol


and the Sacramento Bee proved you right how??....you are saying Hack writers for the Bee is more weight then ESPN....


it's obvious you never read the Bee or any papers you used.....if you did you wouldn't have posted them.



and yes...you are making yourself look dumb.....you are full of sh!t and proving one post at a time.

[ShaqAttack3234]

BullSh!t again..i posted the actual article from ESPN and Sporting News and SLAM saying Kobe was the best player in the NBA in 2001...

this is after I said many in the basketball community thought of Kobe as the best allaround player in the NBA...and then you got all mad again and said it wasn't true...:lol


and the Sacramento Bee proved you right how??....you are saying Hack writers for the Bee is more weight then ESPN....


it's obvious you never read the Bee or any papers you used.....if you did you wouldn't have posted them.



and yes...you are making yourself look dumb.....you are full of sh!t and proving one post at a time.

And once again, from your beloved ESPN.


Forget about the Lakers being Kobe's team: Shaq is the true centerpiece.

http://espn.go.com/magazine/bembry_20010616.html

Funny how you post one writer's opinion as if it represented ESPN as a whole. That was that one writer, and here's another writer from ESPN saying Shaq was better.

But we've been over this before.

[jlauber]

hmm...considering Kobe is still playing ....if he can win 2 - 3 more Titles Like MJ did at similar ages.....


then easily Winning and Longevity would make Kobe a better player.

Well, I am rooting for that to happen, but, at this point in time, Kobe has no case for the GOAT.

[Shadynasty's]

Jordan

[AlphaWolf24]

And once again, from your beloved ESPN.



http://espn.go.com/magazine/bembry_20010616.html

Funny how you post one writer's opinion as if it represented ESPN as a whole. That was that one writer, and here's another writer from ESPN saying Shaq was better.

But we've been over this before.

Funny how the writer says "Forget about the Lakers being Kobe's Team"..


because...that means that there was discussion into who's team it was....just as I had said all along....

again, all i said was Kobe was widely viewed as the best player in the league...and that there was discussion who the Lakers best player/leader was...


and just as I have shown , and you have shown (even though you are to ignorant to realize) is yes, there was discussion who L.A's best player was...and Kobe was really considered the best player in the NBA at 22 years old by many inside the basketball community.



and yes ESPN is far more credible then the Sacramento Bee...

and yes I know far more about this and basketball in general then you...as I was actually here in L.A. following the Lakers and watching every game.







2EZ



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[goldenboy_smith]

general messa to all those posting remember that accolades mean something....