Dr J: The Most Underrated Superstar Ever

[WillC]

This article explains why: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/11/dr-j-most-underrated-superstar-ever.html

He was so overrated that he became underrated.

He should be ranked in the top 10 players ever.

Is there a convincing argument for Erving not being ranked ahead of the likes of Kobe, West and Hakeem? Let alone Malone, Pettit, Havlicek and Baylor.

[D-Wade316]

Underrated as hell. I just can't grasp why people don't rank him in their top 10.

[Yung D-Will]

Underrated as hell. I just can't grasp why people don't rank him in their top 10.
Because there's 10 people + Oscar that are better than him.

[WillC]

Because there's 10 people + Oscar that are better than him.

That's certainly the perceived public consensus.

For some reason it has become accepted that players like Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and Hakeem Olajuwon should all be ranked ahead of Erving.

I was in agreement too, until recently. I'd now take Erving's career over all four of those players.

That would put Erving in the top 10 players of all-time.

Here's a top 100 players list according to multiple sources: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html

I just think Erving is too low at number 15.

[D-Wade316]

Because there's 10 people + Oscar that are better than him.
In terms of historical relevance, he is only behind MJ, Wilt, and Russell.

2-time ABA Champion
1-time ABA Champion
3-time ABA MVP Awards
1-time NBA MVP Award
2 NBA All-Star game MVP awards
3 Player of the Month Awards
4 All-ABA First Team Awards
1 All-ABA Second Team Award
1 All-ABA First Rookie Team Award
5 All-NBA First Team Awards
1 All-NBA Second Team Award

[rodman91]

Definetely not underrated. He is one of the guys always mentioned in history of NBA.

Moses Malone is more underrated compared to Dr.J

[WillC]

Definetely not underrated. He is one of the guys always mentioned in history of NBA.

Sure, Dr J is a household name. But he's underrated on all-time player rankings lists, compared to other superstars.

Most people have Kobe in their top 10 players ever. Some people think Kobe is in the top 5 or 6 players ever.

How many people say that about Julius Erving? None.

I'd argue that Dr J was every bit as good as Kobe Bryant.

[DuMa]

its because he played in the ABA and had his best statistical outputs during the ABA's most prominent years. younger people are quick to dismiss the competition in the ABA compared to the NBA back then.

its hard for the Doctor to get respect in the all time rankings, i agree. the stuff he did in the ABA he would have done just as well in the NBA. imho

[rodman91]

Sure, Dr J is a household name. But he's underrated on all-time player rankings lists, compared to other superstars.

Most people have Kobe in their top 10 players ever. Some people think Kobe is in the top 5 or 6 players ever.

How many people say that about Julius Erving? None.

I'd argue that Dr J was every bit as good as Kobe Bryant.

Ranking depends on stats,individual and team accomplishments. Kobe crushes Dr.J in these categories. (except ABA)

I don't see a reason Dr.J should be considered higher rank than Kobe.

[WillyJakk]

:lol :roll: :oldlol: @ Jerry "The Logo" West and Oscar Robertson being better than Doc.

Dr. J stats:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ervinju01.html

Career avg: 24pts/ 8rebs/ 2stls/ 2blks/ 50% FG

His best season:
32ppg/ 12 rebs/ 4asts/ 2blks/ 2stls/ 50%

All of this in a League where black athletes were at a premium VS the "good ol days" of the NBA where they weren't at a premium.

White athletic players sought out the ABA due to the higher level of competition.

The rankings are a way for the NBA to "claim" West etc were better players when in fact they weren't.

No knock against any of those OG's cause unfortunately that's how the World (US) was and they played who was in front of them so it's not on them.

Once they integrated the ABA w/ the NBA you saw just how different the competitive landscape became.

[WillC]

its because he played in the ABA and had his best statistical outputs during the ABA's most prominent years. younger people are quick to dismiss the competition in the ABA compared to the NBA back then.

its hard for the Doctor to get respect in the all time rankings, i agree. the stuff he did in the ABA he would have done just as well in the NBA. imho

I agree with you.

By all accounts, Dr J was at his peak when he played in the ABA. He might have averaged a couple less rebounds per game if he'd been in the NBA during those years, but he'd still average close to 30ppg to go with 10-12rpg, 5apg, 2spg, 2bpg, etc.

[D-Wade316]

Sure, Dr J is a household name. But he's underrated on all-time player rankings lists, compared to other superstars.

Most people have Kobe in their top 10 players ever. Some people think Kobe is in the top 5 or 6 players ever.

How many people say that about Julius Erving? None.

I'd argue that Dr J was every bit as good as Kobe Bryant.
True. And if we compare their numbers, it also holds true. Kobe's numbers are also going to decline as his career continues.

What people don't understand about Dr. J is his cultural relevance. It is not his accolades that people should see, but his immeasurable impact on the game by taking to the air. Many miss that point completely.

[millwad]

In terms of historical relevance, he is only behind MJ, Wilt, and Russell.

2-time ABA Champion
1-time ABA Champion
3-time ABA MVP Awards
1-time NBA MVP Award
2 NBA All-Star game MVP awards
3 Player of the Month Awards
4 All-ABA First Team Awards
1 All-ABA Second Team Award
1 All-ABA First Rookie Team Award
5 All-NBA First Team Awards
1 All-NBA Second Team Award

Historial relevance? Haha, that was the biggest load of crap I've read today..

And don't mix his ABA accomplishments with his NBA. ABA was a weaker league with weaker players, just watch how much Erving dropped in terms of stats when he joined the NBA and no, 21 year old ABA-Julius was not in his prime.

[WillC]

True. And if we compare their numbers, it also holds true. Kobe's numbers are also going to decline as his career continues.

What people don't understand about Dr. J is his cultural relevance. It is not his accolades that people should see, but his immeasurable impact on the game by taking to the air. Many miss that point completely.

A player's legacy, cultural relevance and impact on the game are all important, I agree. But even when you forget all that, Dr J should still be ranked alongside Kobe. I really don't get why people have him like 5 or more places lower on their all-time lists.

[DMAVS41]

don't think so at all. how is he under-rated when he's in just about every top 15 list.

was dr. j better than barkley, moses, dirk, kg, malone, lebron????

hard to say. i saw dr. j from about 79 on....he was great. definitely one of the best players i've seen.

kobe is definitely better. i'd rather build a team around barkley, kg, lebron, and dirk as well.

he deserves to be somewhere in that 15 range. which is exactly where he is on pretty much every list.

[PTB Fan]

Dr J could be argued even higher than that. He's definitely underrated, but most underrated superstar ever? No way. Elgin Baylor is more underrated than him.

[Yung D-Will]

I honestly didn't see that much of a difference between 10-15 up until like 2010.

Between Kobe,Oscar,DR.J,West,Moses Malone I don't see how you can take it as an insult that any of these players would be above each other.

Until Kobe won his 5th championship I didn't feel he cemented himself at 10.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Is there a convincing argument for Erving not being ranked ahead of the likes of Kobe, West and Hakeem?

Of course, Hakeem was a flat out better player. Offensively, and especially defensively. Hakeem anchored a defense for years like few could, led the league in rebounding and developed until a better scorer who also created more for his teammates. Houston won championships running their offense through Hakeem. Not just asking him to score 25-30 ppg or more(which he did), but getting constantly doubled and tripled and finding his teammates.

Did Erving really do anything that matches Hakeem's back to back runs or leve of play on the court throughout his prime? And to add to that, Hakeem had a much more successful NBA career with the back to back titles as the best player and his '86 run to the finals.

Doc had the 2 ABA titles, but when there's 2 leagues splitting the top players in the league, it can't be viewed the same as winning a title when the talent pool had expanded due to the growth in popularity and all of the top players were in one league. Particularly when that league(though not that far behind the NBA) was still the inferior one at the time.

Kobe was/is also a superior all around player whether it was becoming a better scorer and much more of a playmaker(regardless of era) and a better defensive player. While some of Kobe's all-defensive selections have been a stretch in recent years, he did earn the reputation in the first place. I've never heard anyone claim Doc's defense.

And to add to that, Kobe also ended up with a more successful NBA career or professional career in general with 5 rings, 2 of which came as the best player and 2 more came as a top 3 player in the league(top 5 at worst).

[WillC]

Of course, Hakeem was a flat out better player. Offensively, and especially defensively. Hakeem anchored a defense for years like few could, led the league in rebounding and developed until a better scorer who also created more for his teammates. Houston won championships running their offense through Hakeem. Not just asking him to score 25-30 ppg or more(which he did), but getting constantly doubled and tripled and finding his teammates.

Did Erving really do anything that matches Hakeem's back to back runs or leve of play on the court throughout his prime? And to add to that, Hakeem had a much more successful NBA career with the back to back titles as the best player and his '86 run to the finals.

Doc had the 2 ABA titles, but when there's 2 leagues splitting the top players in the league, it can't be viewed the same as winning a title when the talent pool had expanded due to the growth in popularity and all of the top players were in one league. Particularly when that league(though not that far behind the NBA) was still the inferior one at the time.

Kobe was/is also a superior all around player whether it was becoming a better scorer and much more of a playmaker(regardless of era) and a better defensive player. While some of Kobe's all-defensive selections have been a stretch in recent years, he did earn the reputation in the first place. I've never heard anyone claim Doc's defense.

And to add to that, Kobe also ended up with a more successful NBA career or professional career in general with 5 rings, 2 of which came as the best player and 2 more came as a top 3 player in the league(top 5 at worst).

Hakeem won back-to-back titles while Michael Jordan took some time off.

If Magic Johnson took a career break in the early 1980s, who's to say that Julius Erving wouldn't have a couple more rings? (The 76ers reached the Finals three years out of four, winning one of them, losing two to the Lakers).

Hakeem's legacy is overstated. He torched David Robinson in the playoffs and that's what everyone remembers. And yet, in 42 meetings between the two players, Robinson's team won 30 of the games and he put up superior numbers in identical minutes (Robinson averaged slightly less PPG but took 5 less shot attempts, i.e. he shot better from the field). That's not to say Robinson is the better player. But it amazes me that people rank Hakeem about 10th all-time but Robinson is all the way down at about 25th.

Kobe spent the majority of his career as a) the second best player on his team, or b) a selfish ball-hog. He finally grasped how to lead his team at the age of 30.

In terms of statistics and accolades, I'd take Erving over Kobe. In terms of championship success, Kobe has the edge.

Factor in legacy as the tie-breaker, I'd take Erving overall.

[NugzHeat3]

Hakeem won back-to-back titles while Michael Jordan took some time off.

If Magic Johnson took a career break in the early 1980s, who's to say that Julius Erving wouldn't have a couple more rings? (The 76ers reached the Finals three years out of four, winning one of them, losing two to the Lakers).

Hakeem's legacy is overstated. He torched David Robinson in the playoffs and that's what everyone remembers. And yet, in 42 meetings between the two players, Robinson's team won 30 of the games and he put up superior numbers in identical minutes (Robinson averaged slightly less PPG but took 5 less shot attempts, i.e. he shot better from the field). That's not to say Robinson is the better player. But it amazes me that people rank Hakeem about 10th all-time but Robinson is all the way down at about 25th.


These are terrible, played out arguments.

Your head to head numbers are essentially worthless because neither guarded each other full-time due to foul trouble since both teams relied heavily on their star big man. Unfortunately, this is something you could only tell by watching the games.

You should also look deeper into how each player did in the playoffs. Hakeem wasn't dominated by Karl Malone and the Jazz; it was more or less the other way round. Hakeem didn't fold under pressure either and was more of a prototypical, back to basket center instead of a face up player and the latter is far easier to shut down by a great defense.

As is the claim about Jordan's retirement. It is not Hakeem's fault that Jordan took time off. Jordan has also said he didn't think the Bulls could beat the Rockets so make of that what you will. The winner of the match up isn't set in stone. I say Hakeem's legacy would be far greater if he takes the Bulls dynasty down. Funny how that's never considered.

[Jacks3]

Kobe spent the majority of his career as a) the second best player on his team, or b) a selfish ball-hog. He finally grasped how to lead his team at the age of 30.

In terms of statistics and accolades, I'd take Erving over Kobe. In terms of championship success, Kobe has the edge.


Wow @ this moron. :roll:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hakeem won back-to-back titles while Michael Jordan took some time off.

If Magic Johnson took a career break in the early 1980s, who's to say that Julius Erving wouldn't have a couple more rings? (The 76ers reached the Finals three years out of four, winning one of them, losing two to the Lakers).

Actually, the equivalent of Jordan returning late in '95 did occur in '81. Magic missed 45 games of that regular season and played very poorly vs the Rockets in that mini-series vs Houston which eliminated the Lakers. But Dr. J's Sixers lost to Boston that year regardless.

And the Jordan argument at best could be applied to only one of those titles. Jordan was playing very well in the '95 playoffs, and Chicago losing to Orlando had more to do with Chicago's frontcourt vs Orlando's.

Even so, that's 1 player. When Doc won his 2 titles as the best player, it was in a different league altogether. I'd say that when there's 2 titles to be won that's more of an advantage then 1 player sitting out that year.

And Dr. J's NBA ring came as the second best player(the same argument you use against Kobe). It's a lot harder to dismiss Hakeem's 2 rings as the best player than it is to dismiss Erving's 2 in the ABA. Especially when you consider how well Hakeem played during those runs to earn those rings.


Hakeem's legacy is overstated. He torched David Robinson in the playoffs and that's what everyone remembers. And yet, in 42 meetings between the two players, Robinson's team won 30 of the games and he put up superior numbers in identical minutes (Robinson averaged slightly less PPG but took 5 less shot attempts, i.e. he shot better from the field). That's not to say Robinson is the better player. But it amazes me that people rank Hakeem about 10th all-time but Robinson is all the way down at about 25th.

That's because how a player matches up with 1 player tells you very little about how good they were in general(for that, it makes sense to look at their play vs the entire league), and if you're citing head to head stats then you might want to remember that Hakeem and Robinson didn't even always guard each other in those regular season games.


Kobe spent the majority of his career as a) the second best player on his team, or b) a selfish ball-hog. He finally grasped how to lead his team at the age of 30.

Kobe was leading his team the same way the previous season at 29 when he won MVP and played better than he did when he won rings in '09 and '10. He didn't just figure it out in '09.

The '05-'07 Lakers didn't have a chance of even contending so it wasn't Kobe's style that held them back. In fact, Phil told Kobe to score in '06 and carry the team, but he changed to more of a team-oriented game vs Phoenix in the playoffs. Kobe also wasn't firing away a ton of shots for the first half of the 2007 seasons. It wasn't until the limited cast he had went on a losing streak after a ton of injuries(and they had overachieved early going 26-15), that Phil told him to shoot more and Kobe responded with all of those 40, 50 and 60 point games.

Kobe's kind of in a no win situation if you're going to penalize him for winning as the second best player and then penalize him for being a "selfish ballhog" his first 3 years as the best player when there really wasn't a better alternative from '05-'07, or at least one that would have resulted in any more titles.

And Bryant's first 3 titles say a lot about how good he was as well. Especially in 2001 and 2002 when he wouldn't have been the second best player on any other team except for maybe the Spurs. His performances during the '01 and '02 playoffs certainly weren't typical of a second best player, especially 2001 when Kobe had a better playoff run than some players who have won as the best player.


In terms of statistics and accolades, I'd take Erving over Kobe. In terms of championship success, Kobe has the edge.

Factor in legacy as the tie-breaker, I'd take Erving overall.

I disagree, Kobe's statistics are more impressive to me as his was his level of play on the court to go with his championship success.

By the way, if you think Erving was better, that's fine with me, I completely disagree, I'm just arguing the statement that there's not an argument against Doc being better.

[Inception28]

11th greatest player of all-time behind Kobe.

[D-Wade316]

And Dr. J's NBA ring came as the second best player(the same argument you use against Kobe). It's a lot harder to dismiss Hakeem's 2 rings as the best player than it is to dismiss Erving's 2 in the ABA. Especially when you consider how well Hakeem played during those runs to earn those rings.
Dr. J's stats during his 2 championship runs:
74 - 27.9ppg on 52.8fg%, 9.6rpg, 4.8apg, 1.6spg, 1.4bpg, 41.4mpg
76 - 34.7ppg on 53.3fg%, 12.6rpg, 4.9apg, 1.9bpg, 2.0bpg, 42.4mpg

They were equals in both their playoff runs. I don't see any reason to dismiss Dr. J's 2 ABA championships when he played so good.


That's because how a player matches up with 1 player tells you very little about how good they were in general(for that, it makes sense to look at their play vs the entire league), and if you're citing head to head stats then you might want to remember that Hakeem and Robinson didn't even always guard each other in those regular season games.

Agree. H2H statistics are deeply flawed. It in no way should be the basis in comparing players.

I disagree, Kobe's statistics are more impressive to me as his was his level of play on the court to go with his championship success.

By the way, if you think Erving was better, that's fine with me, I completely disagree, I'm just arguing the statement that there's not an argument against Doc being better.
I disagree. Both player's stats in the RS and PS are equal. If we talk about prime and peak, then Dr J's prime is equal, if not better than Kobe's prime. It also lasted much longer, 71-76, to Kobe's 05-09. Erving is also a far more efficient scorer than Kobe.



In terms of achievement, they are equal. The only thing that separates both is legacy, which Doc easily wins. So Dr. J is higher in my all-time list.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Dr. J's stats during his 2 championship runs:
74 - 27.9ppg on 52.8fg%, 9.6rpg, 4.8apg, 1.6spg, 1.4bpg, 41.4mpg
76 - 34.7ppg on 53.3fg%, 12.6rpg, 4.9apg, 1.9bpg, 2.0bpg, 42.4mpg

They were equals in both their playoff runs. I don't see any reason to dismiss Dr. J's 2 ABA championships when he played so good.


Agree. H2H statistics are deeply flawed. It in no way should be the basis in comparing players.

I disagree. Both player's stats in the RS and PS are equal. If we talk about prime and peak, then Dr J's prime is equal, if not better than Kobe's prime. It also lasted much longer, 71-76, to Kobe's 05-09. Erving is also a far more efficient scorer than Kobe.



In terms of achievement, they are equal. The only thing that separates both is legacy, which Doc easily wins. So Dr. J is higher in my all-time list.

I don't think there's a fair way to compare ABA stats to NBA stats, particularly 30 years later. Doc claimed during a 1980 interview that he was having his best NBA season to that point. His numbers that season were 26.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 3.8 TO, 2.2 spg, 1.8 bpg, 51.9 FG%, 56.8 TS%.

[D-Wade316]

I don't think there's a fair way to compare ABA stats to NBA stats, particularly 30 years later. Doc claimed during a 1980 interview that he was having his best NBA season to that point. His numbers that season were 26.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 3.8 TO, 2.2 spg, 1.8 bpg, 51.9 FG%, 56.8 TS%.
He only claimed, but the stats says otherwise. :confusedshrug:

[ShaqAttack3234]

He only claimed, but the stats says otherwise. :confusedshrug:

He didn't claim it was better than his ABA years. I'm just using that season as reference. The ABA was a more wide open game with an opportunity to put up bigger stats, there's a reason why his numbers dropped so much the year he came to the NBA.

[D-Wade316]

He didn't claim it was better than his ABA years. I'm just using that season as reference. The ABA was a more wide open game with an opportunity to put up bigger stats, there's a reason why his numbers dropped so much the year he came to the NBA.
Yes. The ABA seems to be more offensive oriented than the NBA.

71-72 ABA: 113.5ppg
71-72 NBA: 110.2ppg

72-73 ABA: 111.6ppg
72-73 NBA: 107.6ppg

73-74 ABA: 106.4ppg, 103.0Ortg, 103.0Drtg, 102.6 pace
73-74 NBA: 105.7ppg, 97.7Ortg, 97.7Drtg, 107.8 pace

74-75 ABA: 108.8ppg, 104.7Ortg, 104.7 Drtg, 103.1 pace
74-75 NBA: 102.6ppg, 97.7Ortg, 97.7Drtg, 104.5 pace

75-76 ABA: 112.5ppg, 104.1Ortg, 104.1Drtg, 106.9 pace
75-76 NBA: 104.3ppg, 98.3Ortg, 98.3Drtg, 105.5 pace

So basically, Erving played the same type of defense that is being played today in the NBA, 107.3Drtg last year. His game would easily translate today.

And while he didn't put up the same stats in the NBA, he had three above average seasons in the NBA:
79-80
80-81
81-82

I can't really explain why his numbers dropped drastically when he came to the NBA, but I'm guessing that it was because of his teammates.
76-77 Philly:
Doc - 21.6
McGinnis - 21.4
Collins - 18.3
Free - 16.3

As proven above, his teammates were indeed showboats and ballhogs.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yes. The ABA seems to be more offensive oriented than the NBA.

71-72 ABA: 113.5ppg
71-72 NBA: 110.2ppg

72-73 ABA: 111.6ppg
72-73 NBA: 107.6ppg

73-74 ABA: 106.4ppg, 103.0Ortg, 103.0Drtg, 102.6 pace
73-74 NBA: 105.7ppg, 97.7Ortg, 97.7Drtg, 107.8 pace

74-75 ABA: 108.8ppg, 104.7Ortg, 104.7 Drtg, 103.1 pace
74-75 NBA: 102.6ppg, 97.7Ortg, 97.7Drtg, 104.5 pace

75-76 ABA: 112.5ppg, 104.1Ortg, 104.1Drtg, 106.9 pace
75-76 NBA: 104.3ppg, 98.3Ortg, 98.3Drtg, 105.5 pace

So basically, Erving played the same type of defense that is being played today in the NBA, 107.3Drtg last year. His game would easily translate today.

And while he didn't put up the same stats in the NBA, he had three above average seasons in the NBA:
79-80
80-81
81-82

I can't really explain why his numbers dropped drastically when he came to the NBA, but I'm guessing that it was because of his teammates.
76-77 Philly:
Doc - 21.6
McGinnis - 21.4
Collins - 18.3
Free - 16.3

As proven above, his teammates were indeed showboats and ballhogs.

Offensive/Defensive ratings of the 70's have a lot to do with the talent being split between 2 leagues, imo as well as offensive skills progressing a lot(particularly when it comes to perimeter players).

Ball handling skills in particular(and you could argue that has to do with how the game is officiated as well, but there's no doubt the skills have progressed). Same with outside shooting.

Spacing also appeared to be worse in halfcourt offenses. Shot selection to some degree as well in a faster paced game.

[PTB Fan]

Doc played pretty well in the Finals.

Actually, he averaged 28.5 points and 11.2 rebounds in the first and 37.9 points and 14.2 boards in the second, both shooting above 50%. He faced Bobby Jones in 76 when he put up those nice stats en route to a title.

[WillC]

Doc played pretty well in the Finals.

Actually, he averaged 28.5 points and 11.2 rebounds in the first and 37.9 points and 14.2 boards in the second, both shooting above 50%. He faced Bobby Jones in 76 when he put up those nice stats en route to a title.

Yeah, it says that in the article :cheers:

[JMT]

That's certainly the perceived public consensus.

For some reason it has become accepted that players like Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and Hakeem Olajuwon should all be ranked ahead of Erving.

I was in agreement too, until recently. I'd now take Erving's career over all four of those players.

.

So...you either never saw him play and have formed an opinion based solely on other people's opinions...or you saw him play, don't trust what you saw, and are swayed by someone elses opinion.

Which is it?

I saw him play, including his ABA days. Doc was teriffic, and from a societal standpoint, is among the most influential players ever. He had a major role in bringing the culture of street ball into the pro ranks, not to mention being an early entrant at a position other than center who proved that he could not only compete, but excel. Drew people to the game when it was trying to gain mainstream acceptance. He was the NBA's OJ (which sounds strange today): a black superstar who was accepted by the white public.

That said, he's not among the top 10 players all time imo. Not as good a player as Wilt, Russell, Robertson, Kareem, Jordan, Bird, Bryant, Malone (Moses), Magic, Duncan, West to name a few. I have him in front of Baylor.

He didn't win until Moses came along and he was the 2nd best player on his own team. Even then, they didn't win it as often as expected. He had some VERY good teammates prior to that, but couldn't put them over the top. I don't subscribe to the "championships trump everything else" mentality that prevails here, but when you're splitting hairs among the greats, it has to be taken into account.

Top 15-20? Certainly. No shame in that. Simply wasn't as good an all round player as the other guys mentioned.

[PTB Fan]

Yeah, it says that in the article :cheers:

My bad. I didn't notice that.

[PTB Fan]

So...you either never saw him play and have formed an opinion based solely on other people's opinions...or you saw him play, don't trust what you saw, and are swayed by someone elses opinion.

Which is it?

I saw him play, including his ABA days. Doc was teriffic, and from a societal standpoint, is among the most influential players ever. He had a major role in bringing the culture of street ball into the pro ranks, not to mention being an early entrant at a position other than center who proved that he could not only compete, but excel. Drew people to the game when it was trying to gain mainstream acceptance. He was the NBA's OJ (which sounds strange today): a black superstar who was accepted by the white public.

That said, he's not among the top 10 players all time imo. Not as good a player as Wilt, Russell, Robertson, Kareem, Jordan, Bird, Bryant, Malone (Moses), Magic, Duncan, West to name a few. I have him in front of Baylor.

He didn't win until Moses came along and he was the 2nd best player on his own team. Even then, they didn't win it as often as expected. He had some VERY good teammates prior to that, but couldn't put them over the top. I don't subscribe to the "championships trump everything else" mentality that prevails here, but when you're splitting hairs among the greats, it has to be taken into account.

Top 15-20? Certainly. No shame in that. Simply wasn't as good an all round player as the other guys mentioned.

Repped

[D-Wade316]

So...you either never saw him play and have formed an opinion based solely on other people's opinions...or you saw him play, don't trust what you saw, and are swayed by someone elses opinion.

Which is it?

I saw him play, including his ABA days. Doc was teriffic, and from a societal standpoint, is among the most influential players ever. He had a major role in bringing the culture of street ball into the pro ranks, not to mention being an early entrant at a position other than center who proved that he could not only compete, but excel. Drew people to the game when it was trying to gain mainstream acceptance. He was the NBA's OJ (which sounds strange today): a black superstar who was accepted by the white public.

That said, he's not among the top 10 players all time imo. Not as good a player as Wilt, Russell, Robertson, Kareem, Jordan, Bird, Bryant, Malone (Moses), Magic, Duncan, West to name a few. I have him in front of Baylor.

He didn't win until Moses came along and he was the 2nd best player on his own team. Even then, they didn't win it as often as expected. He had some VERY good teammates prior to that, but couldn't put them over the top. I don't subscribe to the "championships trump everything else" mentality that prevails here, but when you're splitting hairs among the greats, it has to be taken into account.

Top 15-20? Certainly. No shame in that. Simply wasn't as good an all round player as the other guys mentioned.
How is he not as good as those guys when he had the same success and put up similar stats?

[JMT]

How is he not as good as those guys when he had the same success and put up similar stats?


Well, if he had the same success as those guys, that would be a good question.

West is the only one that's even close.

[D-Wade316]

Well, if he had the same success as those guys, that would be a good question.

West is the only one that's even close.
:hammerhead:
Bird - 3 rings (2 as alpha)
Dr. J - 3 rings (2 as alpha)
Malone - 1 ring (alpha)
Bryant - 5 rings (2 as alpha. you can make a very strong case for Pau being the alpha in 2010)

[Heavincent]

you can make a very strong case for Pau being the alpha in 2010

No you can't you ****ing moron. Kobe was the best player on that team by FAR. Fact.

[D-Wade316]

I like sucking Kobe's dick.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Heavincent]

Says the retarded kid with a Dwyane Wade username and a Dwyane Wade avatar :oldlol:

[D-Wade316]

Says the retarded kid with a Dwyane Wade username and a Dwyane Wade avatar :oldlol:
I don't make Wade threads. And when I talk about Wade, I back it up with facts, UNLIKE YOU.

[Heavincent]

Nah Wade, I don't mind of you *** in my face

:wtf:

[StarJordan]

Considering you're calling Erving DOCTOR J when he's neither a medical doctor nor has a PHD shows to me he's not underrated.

[D-Wade316]

Considering you're calling Erving DOCTOR J when he's neither a medical doctor nor has a PHD shows to me he's not underrated.
Are you an imbecile? It's only a nickname. NICKNAME

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[StarJordan]

^if his nickname was Janitor J then he would be underrated yes

[D-Wade316]

^if his nickname was Janitor J then he would be underrated yes
Going by custom user title, there's no point in arguing with you.

[Jacks3]

you can make a very strong case for Pau being the alpha in 2010)
Please make this case. I'd love to hear exactly how a dude not even top 10 in the league was the "alpha" over the guy better than anyone not named LeBron James. You are a fukking moron.

[Heavincent]

Please make this case. I'd love to hear exactly how a dude not even top 10 in the league was the "alpha" over the guy better than anyone not named LeBron James. You are a fukking moron.

Don't bother. It's like arguing with someone that thinks Anthony Carter is the GOAT.

[D-Wade316]

Please make this case. I'd love to hear exactly how a dude not even top 10 in the league was the "alpha" over the guy better than anyone not named LeBron James. You are a fukking moron.
Go through the pages. I know you're a stat geek, like myself, but why are you denying it?

[Jacks3]

Go through the pages. I know you're a stat geek, like myself, but why are you denying it?
So you can't make the case for why a dude who wasn't even in the top 10...was the "alpha" over a top 2 player in the league. :lol

Thought so.

BTW, Kobe's 29/6/6/2/57% TS is far superior to Pau's numbers. He was better in each of the last three rounds and it wasn't even close.

Here are his numbers over the 19 games after having his knee drained:

31 PPG/7 RPG/6 APG/2 SPG/58% TS.

WCSF: 33 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/61% TS
WCF: 34 PPG/9 RPG/7 APG/2 SPG/62% TS
Finals: 29 PPG/8 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/53% TS/26 PER

So Kobe has much better numbers, a much higher usage%, draws much more defensive attention, is a much better playmaker(http://www.backpicks.com/2011/02/22/opportunities-created-oc-leaders-2010-playoffs/), was the go-to guy in the clutch/taking over games, and was FAR better on the road...and Pau was the alpha?

Are you retarded?

:oldlol:

[D-Wade316]

So you can't make the case for why a dude who wasn't even in the top 10...was the "alpha" over a top 2 player in the league. :lol

Thought so.

BTW, Kobe's 29/6/6/2/57% TS is far superior to Pau's numbers. He was better in each of the last three rounds and it wasn't even close.

Here are his numbers over the 19 games after having his knee drained:

31 PPG/7 RPG/6 APG/2 SPG/58% TS.

WCSF: 33 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/61% TS
WCF: 34 PPG/9 RPG/7 APG/2 SPG/62% TS
Finals: 29 PPG/8 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/53% TS/26 PER

So Kobe has much better numbers, a much higher usage%, draws much more defensive attention, is a much better playmaker(http://www.backpicks.com/2011/02/22/opportunities-created-oc-leaders-2010-playoffs/), was the go-to guy in the clutch/taking over games, and was FAR better on the road...and Pau was the alpha?

Are you retarded?

:oldlol:
What a fool. In terms of efficiency, Kobe isn't even close to Pau. If we also add defense, then Pau completely blows Kobe away.

Pau Finals: 18.6ppg, 11.6rpg, 3.7apg, 1.9tov, 3.0pf, 47.8fg%
Kobe Finals: 28.6ppg, 8.0rpg, 3.9apg, 3.9tov, 3.9pf, 40.5fg%

Pau WCF: 19.7ppg, 7.3rpg, 3.7apg, 56.6fg%
Kobe WCF: 33.7ppg, 6.7rpg, 7.7apg, 73-140, 52.1fg%

Pau WCSF: 23.5ppg, 14.5rpg, 2.8apg, 60.7fg%
Kobe WCSF: 32.0ppg, 3.8rpg, 5.5apg, 51.1fg%

Pau WCQR: 18.0ppg, 12.2rpg, 3.7rpg, 53.3fg%
Kobe WCQR: 23.5ppg, 4.0rpg, 4.3rpg, 40.8fg%


Kobe's best performance (Jazz, Phoenix) were against teams that played no defense. :facepalm











OWNED

[Jacks3]

What a fool. In terms of efficiency, Kobe isn't even close to Pau. If we also add defense, then Pau completely blows Kobe away.
lol @ this clown. 29 PPG/57% TS isn't close to 19 PPG/60% TS? Especially when one guy is drawing far more defensive attention and getting a ton less assisted baskets?:oldlol:

And lol @ u acting like Pau is some great defender. He's decent, but watch Game of the WCF where Amare just destroys him for 44/10. "Blows away"

LOL

Kobe's best performance (Jazz, Phoenix) were against teams that played no defense. :facepalm
Jazz were top 10 in DRTG. Phoenix was a top 5 in DRTG post-All-Star break

Those were Pau's best series too, you idiot, and Kobe was still far better.:facepalm












OWNED
You still haven't made any sort of case, you idiot.

So you can't make the case for why a dude who wasn't even in the top 10...was the "alpha" over a top 2 player in the league.

Thought so.

BTW, Kobe's 29/6/6/2/57% TS is far superior to Pau's numbers. He was better in each of the last three rounds and it wasn't even close.

Here are his numbers over the 19 games after having his knee drained:

31 PPG/7 RPG/6 APG/2 SPG/58% TS.

WCSF: 33 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/61% TS
WCF: 34 PPG/9 RPG/7 APG/2 SPG/62% TS
Finals: 29 PPG/8 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/53% TS/26 PER

So Kobe has much better numbers, a much higher usage%, draws much more defensive attention, is a much better playmaker(http://www.backpicks.com/2011/02/22/...010-playoffs/), was the go-to guy in the clutch/taking over games, and was FAR better on the road...and Pau was the alpha?

PWNED.

[Hondo]

don't think so at all. how is he under-rated when he's in just about every top 15 list.

was dr. j better than barkley, moses, dirk, kg, malone, lebron????

hard to say. i saw dr. j from about 79 on....he was great. definitely one of the best players i've seen.

kobe is definitely better. i'd rather build a team around barkley, kg, lebron, and dirk as well.

he deserves to be somewhere in that 15 range. which is exactly where he is on pretty much every list.

I agree wholeheartedly. I watched all of Dr. J's NBA career as a teenager and adult, and his career is just not top 10 worthy. Without the accolades, Erving's game is not that much better than a Dominique Wilkins.

[Jacks3]

I agree wholeheartedly. I watched all of Dr. J's NBA career as a teenager and adult, and his career is just not top 10 worthy. Without the accolades, Erving's game is not that much better than a Dominique Wilkins.
10 best players you've seen? Who are they.

[knightfall88]

From his achievements, he is the 2nd greatest SF of all time and it will stay that way for a very long time until Durant starts balling

[Hondo]

10 best players you've seen? Who are they.

That I have personally seen?

In no order just as names pop in my head.........
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Shaquille O'Neal
Bill Walton
John Havlicek
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon
Moses Malone
Pete Maravich
Tracy McGrady for a couple of seasons
Penny Hardaway from the 94-95, 95-6 season is one of the greatest players of all-time
Isiah Thomas


Dr. J would slot in with guys like Charles Barkley, David Robinson, Kevin McHale, Karl Malone etc. The guys above were all special talents and alpha dogs. I'm sure I'm forgetting some guys.

[Jacks3]

So you have him in that 2nd-tier...Interesting...

[WillC]

That I have personally seen?

In no order just as names pop in my head.........
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Shaquille O'Neal
Bill Walton
John Havlicek
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon
Moses Malone
Pete Maravich
Tracy McGrady for a couple of seasons
Penny Hardaway from the 94-95, 95-6 season is one of the greatest players of all-time
Isiah Thomas


Dr. J would slot in with guys like Charles Barkley, David Robinson, Kevin McHale, Karl Malone etc. The guys above were all special talents and alpha dogs. I'm sure I'm forgetting some guys.

Lol, McGrady, Hardaway and Maravich above Erving.... interesting.

[JMT]

:hammerhead:
Bird - 3 rings (2 as alpha)
Dr. J - 3 rings (2 as alpha)
Malone - 1 ring (alpha)
Bryant - 5 rings (2 as alpha. you can make a very strong case for Pau being the alpha in 2010)

You really want to compare ABA vs NBA? Please, son...

You never saw an ABA game. I did. Dozens. In person. Was a huge fan. Though the elite players would have been elite anywhere, the overall level of competition wasn't even close.

Doc won 1 NBA ring, none as alpha.

And Bird wasn't his teams best player in every title run??? Do tell.

[JMT]

That I have personally seen?

In no order just as names pop in my head.........
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Shaquille O'Neal
Bill Walton
John Havlicek
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon
Moses Malone
Pete Maravich
Tracy McGrady for a couple of seasons
Penny Hardaway from the 94-95, 95-6 season is one of the greatest players of all-time
Isiah Thomas


Dr. J would slot in with guys like Charles Barkley, David Robinson, Kevin McHale, Karl Malone etc. The guys above were all special talents and alpha dogs. I'm sure I'm forgetting some guys.

Below Hardaway, McGrady, and NBA Pete? Really?

We have to be close to the same age if you actually saw those guys play. I'd like to hear your reasoning.

[oolalaa]

:hammerhead:
Bird - 3 rings (2 as alpha)
Dr. J - 3 rings (2 as alpha)
Malone - 1 ring (alpha)
Bryant - 5 rings (2 as alpha. you can make a very strong case for Pau being the alpha in 2010)

Wow, you clearly have an agenda :facepalm stop revising history.

Bird wasn't the 'alpha' in 81'? Are you kidding me? So maxwells 16/7/3 on 58% in the playoffs was better than birds 22/14/6 on 48efg%?

Bird was the leader of that team from his very first game as a celtic. Maxwell was a worse version of mchale.

And :roll: at you saying there is 'a very strong case for pau being the alpha'. You clearly don't understand basketball.

[goldenboy_smith]

the dr would been so nice if he had dat deep jumpa

[WillC]

He did have a nice jump shot, especially later in his career.

[D-Wade316]

Wow, you clearly have an agenda :facepalm stop revising history.

Bird wasn't the 'alpha' in 81'? Are you kidding me? So maxwells 16/7/3 on 58% in the playoffs was better than birds 22/14/6 on 48efg%?

Bird was the leader of that team from his very first game as a celtic. Maxwell was a worse version of mchale.

And :roll: at you saying there is 'a very strong case for pau being the alpha'. You clearly don't understand basketball.
But he didn't win the FMVP:confusedshrug: