ISH's #15 Player of Alltime [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Deuce Bigalow

11-06-2011, 04:16 PM

#1: Michael Jordan (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237455)
#2: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237815)
#3: Bill Russell (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237918)
#4: Magic Johnson (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238016)
#5: Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238103)
#6: Larry Bird (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238181)
#7: Shaquille O'Neal (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238203)
#8: Tim Duncan (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238309)
#9: Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238385)
#10: Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238486)
#11: Jerry West (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238569)
#12: Oscar Robertson (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238681)
#13: Moses Malone (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238749)
#14: Julius Erving (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238814)

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ISH's #14 Player of Alltime - Julius Erving

http://www.itsalreadysigned4u.com/shop/media/images/product_detail/je-16a.jpg
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Candidates:
Karl Malone
Elgin Baylor
George Mikan
Charles Barkley
Bob Petitt
John Havlicek
Isiah Thomas
Kevin Garnett
Rick Barry
David Robinson
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwyane Wade
Lebron James
Patrick Ewing
Scottie Pippen
John Stockton
Steve Nash
Elvin Hayes
Allen Iverson
Clyde Drexler
Bob Cousy
Jason Kidd
Pete Maravich
Gary Payton

Deuce Bigalow

11-06-2011, 04:17 PM

Julius Erving got 20/25 votes for the #14 voting, so I decided to move on earlier

DMV2

11-06-2011, 04:22 PM

Should start putting Wade's name in there if Drexler is there.

Vote goes to Barkley for #15.

WillC

11-06-2011, 04:24 PM

Elgin Baylor gets my vote.

Deuce Bigalow

11-06-2011, 04:25 PM

Should start putting Wade's name in there if Drexler is there.

Vote goes to Barkley for #15.

Wade's name is already there :D

D-Wade316

11-06-2011, 04:26 PM

Elgin Baylor

alenleomessi

11-06-2011, 04:28 PM

Sir Charles

raiderfan19

11-06-2011, 04:31 PM

Dirk

Inception28

11-06-2011, 04:42 PM

Karl Malone.

DMV2

11-06-2011, 04:45 PM

Wade's name is already there :D
oh, I'm blind.

Good project by the way. And good timing too, because of the lockout.

pauk

11-06-2011, 04:45 PM

Karl malone

Yung D-Will

11-06-2011, 04:47 PM

Barklehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Asukal

11-06-2011, 04:48 PM

Chuck.

DevilsAssassin

11-06-2011, 04:50 PM

Kevin Garnett

magnax1

11-06-2011, 04:50 PM

Garnett

Harison

11-06-2011, 04:51 PM

Garnett
+1, ring, MVP, DPOY.

DevilsAssassin

11-06-2011, 04:52 PM

+1, ring, MVP, DPOY.

what about me ........i wrote it first :cry: :cry: :cry:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6463052&postcount=14

Harison

11-06-2011, 04:54 PM

what about me ........i wrote it first :cry: :cry: :cry:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6463052&postcount=14
You got rep :cheers:

Elmer Fudd

11-06-2011, 04:56 PM

Tuff choice....
It's between Kawul Mawone, Chawels Bawkwey, Elgin Baywuh and Kevin Gawnett. Be vewy vewy patient while I decide my vote. hehehehe

DevilsAssassin

11-06-2011, 04:58 PM

You got rep :cheers:

right back at u :cheers:

Richesly

11-06-2011, 05:47 PM

Bob Pettit

Odinn

11-06-2011, 05:55 PM

Karl Malone

GOATofGOATS

11-06-2011, 05:56 PM

Karl Malone

pauk

11-06-2011, 06:12 PM

Elgin Baylor gets my vote.

Elgin Baylor

Lebron James
2 x NBA MVP
2 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
7 x All-Star
5 x All-NBA 1st team
3 x All-Defensive 1st team
17 x POTM (most in NBA history)
1 x Gold Medal

Stats:
17362 points @ 28 PPG
4451 rebounds @ 7 RPG
4364 assists @ 7 APG

Elgin Baylor
1 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
11 x NBA All-Star
10 x All-NBA 1st team
thats about it........

Stats:
23149 points @ 27 PPG
11463 rebounds @ 13 RPG
3650 assists @ 4 APG

Deuce Bigalow

11-06-2011, 06:19 PM

Lebron James
2 x NBA MVP
2 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
7 x All-Star
5 x All-NBA 1st team
3 x All-Defensive 1st team
17 x POTM (most in NBA history)
1 x Gold Medal

Stats:
17362 points @ 28 PPG
4451 rebounds @ 7 RPG
4364 assists @ 7 APG

Elgin Baylor
1 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
11 x NBA All-Star
10 x All-NBA 1st team
thats about it........

Stats:
23149 points @ 27 PPG
11463 rebounds @ 13 RPG
3650 assists @ 4 APG

Baylor
61 point Finals game - NBA record
60 30 point playoff games - 5th alltime

SpecialQue

11-06-2011, 07:14 PM

Baylor
61 point Finals game - NBA record
60 30 point playoff games - 5th alltime

Pwned.

And I'm voting for Hondo, but I guess I'm alone in this.

RobertdeMeijer

11-06-2011, 07:17 PM

John Havlicek

Nobody else is voting for him? hmm...

edit: lol, all the sudden two votes for him, both mentioning a lack of votes for Hondo

PistolPete44

11-06-2011, 07:41 PM

elgin baylor

pauk

11-06-2011, 07:41 PM

Baylor
61 point Finals game - NBA record
60 30 point playoff games - 5th alltime

oh me oh myyyy, he scored teh so many pointz in teh 1 finalzzzz gamez!! meanz much better career than Kobe, Lebron or Jordan and so on automatically because they couldnt do that.......

GREAT LOGIC BRO!
http://blogg.vk.se/uploads/518/images/buddy-jesus.jpg

pauk

11-06-2011, 07:42 PM

John Havlicek

Nobody else is voting for him? hmm...

edit: lol, all the sudden two votes for him, both mentioning a lack of votes for Hondo

sidekick... meh.. doesnt really belong above malone, lebron, barkley, baylor, dirk...

Jimbo_Celtics

11-06-2011, 07:52 PM

Havlicek :bowdown:

hammer2010

11-06-2011, 07:57 PM

Rondo

OmniStrife

11-06-2011, 07:58 PM

Rondo
Dumbass of the week. :applause:

magnax1

11-06-2011, 07:59 PM

Anyone want to explain to me why Havlicek should be this high? He was never the best at his position, and whenever I watch him, I never see him as a player in the very top tier like the other guys that have been listed so far.

hammer2010

11-06-2011, 08:04 PM

I worship cawk :applause:

Fakkit of the week! :oldlol:

SpecialQue

11-06-2011, 08:08 PM

Fakkit of the week! :oldlol:

:facepalm

rmt

11-06-2011, 08:11 PM

I'll go with David Robinson, who I see as a KG on steroids (bigger, stronger, faster).

ShaqAttack3234

11-06-2011, 08:49 PM

Barkley.

And yes, Barkley is better than Malone. Better scorer, rebounder and playmaker, plus a much better playoff performer. That more than makes up for Malone's defensive advantage(especially since Malone wasn't exactly anchoring defenses himself and his strength was post defense).

RRR3

11-06-2011, 08:57 PM

ShaqAttack3234

11-06-2011, 08:59 PM

Was Malone really that bad in the playoffs?

Not bad. It's just that he was exposed to some degree as not being the player his regular season stats suggested, and certainly not Barkley. Though I'd call Malone's playoff career disappointing for the most part.

hammer2010

11-06-2011, 09:00 PM

I toss man salad

:oldlol:

RRR3

11-06-2011, 09:01 PM

Not bad. It's just that he was exposed to some degree as not being the player his regular season stats suggested, and certainly not Barkley. Though I'd call Malone's playoff career disappointing for the most part.

His career playoff averages were 25/11/3. Pretty damn good, although I admit I didn't watch him, so I can't speak from anything but stats. His FG% went down a fair amount though...Still he averaged 25+ ppg 12 times in the playoffs. Pretty impressive IMO, but again stats don't tell the whole story and I didn't watch Malone with the Jazz.

Inception28

11-06-2011, 09:16 PM

Was Malone really that bad in the playoffs?
Not at all, he was actually pretty good in the playoffs.

Papaya Petee

11-06-2011, 09:18 PM

Barkleyyyyyyy

16 should be Garnett

pauk

11-06-2011, 10:22 PM

16 should be Garnett

nah... its between barkley and lebron and dirk

SpecialQue

11-06-2011, 10:38 PM

i eat pubes and ass hairs floating in a bowl of sperm for breakfast. i then drink the sperm from the bowl because i love the taste of man-jam. then I snack on schlongs for lunch and have a sensible dinner of rectum

Jesus dude...you really don't need to say that stuff here. You're being disgusting.

Collie

11-06-2011, 10:39 PM

sidekick... meh.. doesnt really belong above malone, lebron, barkley, baylor, dirk...

He was only the sidekick during the Russell days. He was the man during the 70's Celtics championships. Sounds familiar? Number 24 was in a similar situation.

That said, I vote Bob Pettit, no reason a two time MVP and one of only two men to beat the 60's Celtics should not even have a single vote or two.

SpecialQue

11-06-2011, 10:45 PM

He was only the sidekick during the Russell days. He was the man during the 70's Celtics championships. Sounds familiar? Number 24 was in a similar situation.

That said, I vote Bob Pettit, no reason a two time MVP and one of only two men to beat the 60's Celtics should not even have a single vote or two.

Are any of his full games up anywhere? There's a sad lack of videos with these great old-timers available.

Collie

11-06-2011, 10:52 PM

Are any of his full games up anywhere? There's a sad lack of videos with these great old-timers available.

I can't find any myself. I think that's what hurts Pettit historically (plus the fact that he looked like Artie from Pete and Pete). He came just before NBA games were regularly televised. His 50 point game (a then record) to clinch a championship is NEVER talked about when people mention iconic games.

Bernie Nips

11-06-2011, 11:17 PM

KG...

Barkley for #16

Jacks3

11-06-2011, 11:22 PM

KG.

bballnoob1192

11-06-2011, 11:28 PM

CB and not Chris Bosh

bballnoob1192

11-06-2011, 11:30 PM

WoW at all the KG votes im truly shock and surprise

chazzy

11-06-2011, 11:36 PM

Barkley

Deuce Bigalow

11-06-2011, 11:58 PM

nah... its between barkley and lebron and dirk

I lol'd

FF1

11-07-2011, 12:14 AM

Dirk Nowitzki

jacobgoindum

11-07-2011, 12:18 AM

sidekick... meh.. doesnt really belong above malone, lebron, barkley, baylor, dirk...

Lebron? he doesnt belong in the convo yet

Hondo won 1 as the man in 1974, winning Finals MVP and averaging 27.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 6.0 apg in the '74 Playoffs

OmniStrife

11-07-2011, 02:06 AM

Barkley

KG? wut? :wtf:

Did I miss Nowitzki and Malone on this list?

Round Mound

11-07-2011, 02:17 AM

Barkley i guess. I have him in my Top 10 Regarding Broken Down Stats of Domination but i guess 15 is not bad for the Zone Buster and Most Doubled In Between Mid Range/Post Player Ever.

Rojogaqu11

11-07-2011, 02:22 AM

Can't believe KG being put above Charles Barkley or the admiral. Might as well put Lebron and Wade up here too, and what about Pettit, Baylor, Dirk, etc. ??

edit. Vote for CHARLES BARKLEY.

SpecialQue

11-07-2011, 03:41 AM

Can't believe KG being put above Charles Barkley or the admiral. Might as well put Lebron and Wade up here too, and what about Pettit, Baylor, Dirk, etc. ??

edit. Vote for CHARLES BARKLEY.

Seriously. I really don't get why everyone here's overrating KG. Great player, sure, but no fvcking way does he belong above Barkley, Malone, Pettit, Hondo, Dirk, and yes...even Lebron.

Harison

11-07-2011, 03:58 AM

Seriously. I really don't get why everyone here's overrating KG. Great player, sure, but no fvcking way does he belong above Barkley, Malone, Pettit, Hondo, Dirk, and yes...even Lebron.
Then its time for you to look it up who KG is and what he did. And yes, he is a greater player than Barkley, Malone, Dirk, etc.

Inception28

11-07-2011, 04:21 AM

Then its time for you to look it up who KG is and what he did. And yes, he is a greater player than Barkley, Malone, Dirk, etc.
http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

24r2

11-07-2011, 04:56 AM

lebron

BruceLeeBowen

11-07-2011, 05:54 AM

Lebron should've been in the top 10.:facepalm
Anyway Lebron.

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 06:00 AM

To the people complaning about KG this is what I've been telling people after Duncan there's really no set PF list.

You got Malone who gets critisized for the playoffs
You got Barkley who gets critisized for his defense
You got Garnett who gets crtisized for his clutchness
You got Dirk getting critisized for choking

In all honest these 4 are all debatable

OmniStrife

11-07-2011, 06:20 AM

D-Wade316

11-07-2011, 06:44 AM

LOL @ KG.

Lebron, Wade>KG

jlip

11-07-2011, 06:54 AM

I'm not voting but I do think that Pettit should be getting a little more attention here. People should start to take a closer look at his resume'. Had it not been for Russell and the Celtics he would probably have 4 titles, and his Hawks seemed to have given the Celtics the most trouble during the early years of the dynasty.

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 07:14 AM

LOL @ KG.

Lebron, Wade>KG

Excuse me whiles I lol off a cliff:roll:

lakers_forever

11-07-2011, 07:48 AM

Karl Malone.

pauk

11-07-2011, 07:53 AM

Odinn

11-07-2011, 07:57 AM

If KG gets the 15th spot, this list will get its first serious fail IMO.

He shouldn't be ranked over K. Malone, Barkley absolutely.

pauk

11-07-2011, 07:57 AM

If KG gets the 15th spot, this list will get its first serious fail IMO.

He shouldn't be ranked over K. Malone, Barkley, Dirk, Lebron, Bob Pettit, Baylor and Bob Cousy absolutely.

agree and fixed :cheers:

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 08:14 AM

agree and fixed :cheers:

Lol what the only people he shouldn't be ranked higher than is Barkley and maybeeee Malone.

In no way is it wrong to rank him over Dirk and just lol at the others. Petit is a hard person to rank though

Though once again after Duncan those 4 pfs can go in any order imo.

Vienceslav

11-07-2011, 08:16 AM

Horatio33

11-07-2011, 08:31 AM

Kevin Garnett.

Odinn

11-07-2011, 08:31 AM

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 08:45 AM

As for accomplishments;

Karl Malone;
2x MVP
14x All-Star
14x All-NBA (11x First Team)
4x All-Defensive (3x First Team)
The 2nd most points scored player

Charles Barkley;
1x MVP
11x All-Star
10x All-NBA (5x First Team)

Kevin Garnett;
1x NBA Champion
1x MVP
14x All-Star
9x All-NBA (4x First Team)
11x All-Defensive (9x First Team)
4x Rebounding Champion

Dirk Nowitzki;
1x NBA Champion
1x Finals MVP
1x MVP
10x All-Star
11x All-NBA (4x First Team)

---

As for resumes, most impressive one is Karl Malone's.

As for peaks, Barkley was the best/most dominant of these 4.

In the end; Nowitzki&Garnett shouldn't be ranked over Malone&Barkley.

I find it funny how u list defensive teams but not DPOY which only Kg has. And besides Barkley's peak I wouldn't take any of these guys over 04 kg.

Whiles Garnett was easily the best defender out of the 4 whiles being the most versatile

Whiles Dirk was the only one out of the 4 to win a championship in their Prime as undoutably the best player on the team

Odinn

11-07-2011, 08:55 AM

I find it funny how u list defensive teams but not DPOY which only Kg has. And besides Barkley's peak I wouldn't take any of these guys over 04 kg.

Whiles Garnett was easily the best defender out of the 4 whiles being the most versatile

Whiles Dirk was the only one out of the 4 to win a championship in their Prime as undoutably the best player on the team
I forgot DPoY and I edited it. Didn't do that on purpose.

And nope. Garnett's peak wasn't better than Barkley's peak.

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 08:57 AM

I forgot DPoY and I edited it. Didn't do that on purpose.

And nope. Garnett's peak wasn't better than Barkley's peak.
I said besides Barkley's peak.

Especially considering I've stated that Barkley had the best Peak out of any Pf (not named Duncan since his play in 03 was one of the greatest things I've witnessed )

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 09:01 AM

I said besides Barkley's peak.

Especially considering I've stated that Barkley had the best Peak out of any Pf (not named Duncan since his play in 03 was one of the greatest things I've witnessed )
Actually he probally had a better peak than Duncan but that's a whole different story

coin24

11-07-2011, 09:16 AM

Sir Charles :rockon:

Recently watched some rookie Barkley in action, what a beast!!
Love watching games from the 80s!

pauk

11-07-2011, 09:33 AM

As for accomplishments;

Karl Malone;
2x MVP
14x All-Star
14x All-NBA (11x First Team)
4x All-Defensive (3x First Team)
The 2nd most points scored player

Charles Barkley;
1x MVP
11x All-Star
10x All-NBA (5x First Team)

Kevin Garnett;
1x NBA Champion
1x MVP
14x All-Star
9x All-NBA (4x First Team)
11x All-Defensive (9x First Team)
1x DPoY
4x Rebounding Champion

Dirk Nowitzki;
1x NBA Champion
1x Finals MVP
1x MVP
10x All-Star
11x All-NBA (4x First Team)

Lebron James;
2x MVP
2x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
7x All-Star
7x All-NBA (5x First Team)
3x All-Defensive First team
Rookie First team
17x Player of the Month trophies (most in NBA history)
1x Gold Medal
1x Scoring Champion
2x Best NBA player awards
#2 All-Time PER (only behind MJ) and #3 in Playoffs
owns the most significant records/milestones out of this bunch
one of the most significant/unique players of all time

---

As for resumes, most impressive one is arguably Karl Malone's.

As for peaks, Lebron was the best/most dominant of these 4.... unlike these players, Lebron was actually the best player in the NBA...

In the end; Nowitzki&Garnett shouldn't be ranked over Malone, Lebron or Barkley.

fixed

this Lebron hatred needs to stop......... you would just like to see anybody BUT Lebron... is that it?

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 09:43 AM

So you fix this by adding in Lebron's stats when we were comparing 4 power forwards? Really what is your obsession you've posted the same stats in every thread.

It's not hate cause Lebron isn't voted into top 15. His name will eventually be voted within the next 5-10 most likely.

It's not hate cause I consider players better than him.

If I change my vote to Lebron for the next 10 threads will this make you happy?

Cause there's no way on my will I'd put Lebron over any of those 4 pf's listed mainly because there's not enough of a difference between them. Though he's definitly somewhere between 19-26

And really what the **** is a best nba player award? Keep putting random awards for Lebron but none of these delusional awards for anyone else

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 09:51 AM

It's amazing because none of the D-Rob/Dirk/Isiah ext fans are calling people haters because they're not being voted but the one obsessed Lebron fan calls everyone haters because he's not being voted for. There is hate on this forum for Lebron but I'm convinced you make up most of the Haters in your head

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

pauk

11-07-2011, 09:56 AM

So you fix this by adding in Lebron's stats when we were comparing 4 power forwards? Really what is your obsession you've posted the same stats in every thread.

Stats? I dont see any stats.... i see a resume... a resume which is probably better than all of those players except Karl Malones.... that needs CONSIDERATION AT LEAST

Obsession? Please dont talk to me about obsession... i just want fairness and unbiasness... its hard to 24-7 refuse to correct the uncorrect statements and unjustice thrown upon Lebron all the god damn time in this forum..... the only one obsessed here is YOU with your Lebron unadmitted hatred...

It's not hate cause Lebron isn't voted into top 15. His name will eventually be voted within the next 5-10 most likely.

Within 5-10? Years? hahaaaa............ Within 5-10 years he will probably be in Top 10.... :rolleyes:

It's not hate cause I consider players better than him.

No... but you HATE because you dont consider Lebron at all.... you HATE because you dont consider Lebrons resume at all

If I change my vote to Lebron for the next 10 threads will this make you happy?

maybe yes... but most importantly if you changed your mindset... hatred.... because Lebrons resume speaks for itself... he more than deserves to be in that company, the only player who probably had a more significant overall career out of that bunch is KARL MALONE....

Cause there's no way on my will I'd put Lebron over any of those 4 pf's listed. Though he's definitly somewhere between 19-26

How about you put your "WILL" to the side and be openminded, look at the resumes... compare.... why the **** would you not put Lebron at least ONE of those 4 pfs?

I can answer you that.... because you dont want to.... your "WILL" afterall...

And really what the **** is a best nba player award?

doesnt mean so much probably since its not literally an NBA award, but peoples/sports award... anyways:
http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/07/14/130662-espy-awards-2011.jpg

at least you know the player might have been the best player in the NBA...

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 09:57 AM

Lol. Ok I'm not even gonna read the rest of your post because clearly you're misinterpreting simple things when I said 5-10 I meant 5-10 threads as in the number 19-25 spot.

L8kersfan222

11-07-2011, 09:59 AM

With 5-10? Years? hahaaaa............ Within 5-10 years he will probably be in Top 10.... :rolleyes:

He meant 5-10 spots retard.

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 09:59 AM

Lol this is funny I make 0 post about Lebron on averge and defend him against people who claim he's not the best player in the leauge and I'm a hater. Whiles at the same time calling out the fact that Wade himself didn;t play up to his standards in the finals either but yea you might as well put me up there with Alphawolf

:roll:

Sakkreth

11-07-2011, 10:00 AM

Barkley

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 10:00 AM

And if any of those 4 I'd put him over it'd be Dirk.Btw.

Being opened minded doesn't mean my opinions gonna be changed . At this point 19-25 seems perfect for Lebron In my head.

L8kersfan222

11-07-2011, 10:01 AM

Lol this is funny I make 0 post about Lebron on averge and defend him against people who claim he's not the best player in the leauge and I'm a hater. Whiles at the same time calling out the fact that Wade himself didn;t play up to his standards in the finals either

:roll:

You're going to make him post his "i'm lebron's white knight" post.

pauk

11-07-2011, 10:07 AM

And if any of those 4 I'd put him over it'd be Dirk.Btw.

Being opened minded doesn't mean my opinions gonna be changed . At this point 19-25 seems perfect for Lebron In my head.

My point is..... Lebron has every inch of right to be CONSIDERED all the way starting from #15

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 10:09 AM

My point is..... Lebron has every inch of right to be CONSIDERED all the way starting from #15

Who the hell said he wasn't being considered. Just because I voted for Barkley does that I didn't consider Garnett,Malone,Dirk,Lebron,D-Rob,Petit and so on

pauk

11-07-2011, 10:11 AM

Who the hell said he wasn't being considered.

everybody.... :confusedshrug:

lebron sure is on the OPs candidate list... but thats about it... you might aswell put in reggie miller on that candidate list... its meaningless...

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 10:13 AM

So every time I vote should I be writing out every player I considered?

Why is this normal?

pauk

11-07-2011, 10:17 AM

So every time I vote should I be writing out every player I considered?

Why is this normal?

Stop acting so dumb please? Lebrons resume is clearly in the repertoir of the likes of Barkley and so on........ if you are gona name all those players you considered (like others did and like you did), then Lebron needs to be in there.... i know you named only the PF's, but in general... Lebron needs to be in there.... which is not a message to only you, but everybody.... that if you are gona compare/debate between Malone, Barkley, Dirk, KG... then you MUST have Lebron in there... and oh.. dont forget Isiah Thomas / Bob Pettit aswell.. Bob Cousy & David Robinson have a case aswell... all of these players needs to be HEAVILY considered for #15 and upwards.... its that close/debatable...

any of these players deserve a #15 spot:

Karl Malone
Bob Cousy
Bob Pettit
Charles Barkley
Dirk Nowitzki
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
David Robinson
Isiah Thomas
John Havlicek

its more or less that close of resumes...

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 10:21 AM

Stop acting so dumb please? Lebrons resume is clearly in the repertoir of the likes of Barkley and so on........ if you are gona name all those players you considered (like others did and like you did), then Lebron needs to be in there.... i know you named only the PF's, but in general... Lebron needs to be in there.... which is not a message to only you, but everybody.... that if you are gona compare/debate between Malone, Barkley, Dirk, KG... then you MUST have Lebron in there... and oh.. dont forget Isiah Thomas aswell..

Once again can you stop making things up? The list of players I listed initially was only to defend why it makes sense for Kg to be voted if guys like Barkley are.

We were debating Power forwards so why the hell should I be forced to debate Isiah and Lebron when the voting so far was between Garnett and Barkley?

Can you stop acting so obsessed?

You've went from claming I'm a Lebron hater to then saying your post wasn't soley directed at me

OmniStrife

11-07-2011, 10:25 AM

Once again can you stop making things up? The list of players I listed initially was only to defend why it makes sense for Kg to be voted if guys like Barkley are.

We were debating Power forwards so why the hell should I be forced to debate Isiah and Lebron when the voting so far was between Garnett and Barkley?

Can you stop acting so obsessed?

You've went from claming I'm a Lebron hater to then saying your post wasn't soley directed at me
Let it go man, it's like arguing with a religious nut.

pauk

11-07-2011, 10:30 AM

Once again can you stop making things up? The list of players I listed initially was only to defend why it makes sense for Kg to be voted if guys like Barkley are.

We were debating Power forwards so why the hell should I be forced to debate Isiah and Lebron when the voting so far was between Garnett and Barkley?

Can you stop acting so obsessed?

You've went from claming I'm a Lebron hater to then saying your post wasn't soley directed at me

Did you read my post or not? Its not aimed against only YOU.... and i clearly said i know what you were talking about....

Based on your previous posts in this forum..... you came out to me as a Lebron hater.... its not about that post you just made...

L8kersfan222

11-07-2011, 10:31 AM

OmniStrife

11-07-2011, 10:32 AM

Did you read my post or not? Its not aimed against only YOU.... and i clearly said i know what you were talking about....

Based on your previous posts in this forum..... you came out to me as a Lebron hater.... its not about that post you just made...
You see this, YDW?

Just ignore him dude, he wouldn't even post here if you weren't replying.

pauk

11-07-2011, 10:33 AM

You see this, YDW?

Just ignore him dude, he wouldn't even post here if you weren't replying.

And what the **** is your deal? Ofcourse i am replying to somebody that replies to me? Maybe its me the one who should be ignoring him... and you? Welcome to a basketball forum, where people reply to eachother.......

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 10:33 AM

Did you read my post or not? Its not aimed against only YOU.... and i clearly said i know what you were talking about....

Based on your previous posts in this forum..... you came out to me as a Lebron hater.... its not about that post you just made...

PLEASE

Especilly after Febuary when I like the rest of the people who It didn't affect stopped caring about the decision

Show Me these post

And definitely the context it was in.

Plz I'm begging you

OmniStrife

11-07-2011, 10:35 AM

PLEASE

Especilly after Febuary when I like the rest of the people who It didn't affect stopped caring about the decision

Show Me these post

And definitely the context it was in.

Plz I'm begging you
:facepalm Please, Ignore him.

No offense, you're both good posters, but why getting into a flame war?

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 10:40 AM

:facepalm Please, Ignore him.
I did

D-Wade316

11-07-2011, 10:42 AM

Excuse me whiles I lol off a cliff:roll:
Why not?

Wade's prime/peak is equal, if not better than KG. He is the better regular season performer. He is also by FAR the better playoff performer. Both only have 1 ring, but Wade's holds more value because he carried a team who-has-beens in an epic run.

In terms of accolades, KG clear cut defeats Wade, because of his longevity. But Wade has been robbed of many awards. Wade should have been All-NBA First team in 05-06 (Nash over him was a disgrace), 06-07 (MVP worthy season, but an injury crushed that hope), and 10-11 (Kobe over Wade wass ridiculous). If we add those "supposed" awards, then he'd have a total of 5 All-NBA First Team(06-07 & 08-11) and 1 All-NBA second team(05). He also has been robbed of All-Defensive awards too.

Yung D-Will

11-07-2011, 10:44 AM

Why not?

Wade's prime/peak is equal, if not better than KG. He is the better regular season performer. He is also by FAR the better playoff performer. Both only have 1 ring, but Wade's holds more value because he carried a team who-has-beens in an epic run.

In terms of accolades, KG clear cut defeats Wade, because of his longevity. But Wade has been robbed of many awards. Wade should have been All-NBA First team in 05-06(Nash over him was a disgrace), 06-07(MVP worthy season, but an injury crushed that hope), 10-11(Kobe over Wade wass ridiculous). If we add those "supposed" awards, then he'd have a total of 5 All-NBA First Team(06-07 & 08-11) and 1 All-NBA second team(05). He also has been robbed of All-Defensive awards too.

Based of what? Give me Wade's peak season and compare it to Kg's 04 season and I might take this seriously

You can't count awards you think players should have had

L8kersfan222

11-07-2011, 10:44 AM

Why not?

Wade's prime/peak is equal, if not better than KG. He is the better regular season performer. He is also by FAR the better playoff performer. Both only have 1 ring, but Wade's holds more value because he carried a team who-has-beens in an epic run.

In terms of accolades, KG clear cut defeats Wade, because of his longevity. But Wade has been robbed of many awards. Wade should have been All-NBA First team in 05-06 (Nash over him was a disgrace), 06-07 (MVP worthy season, but an injury crushed that hope), and 10-11 (Kobe over Wade wass ridiculous). If we add those "supposed" awards, then he'd have a total of 5 All-NBA First Team(06-07 & 08-11) and 1 All-NBA second team(05). He also has been robbed of All-Defensive awards too.
Lmao Pauk had to log on his alt.

D-Wade316

11-07-2011, 11:02 AM

Based of what? Give me Wade's peak season and compare it to Kg's 04 season and I might take this seriously

You can't count awards you think players should have had
Regular season
KG '03-'04: 24.2ppg on 54.7ts% and 50.2efg%, 13.9rpg on 20.1trb%, 4.6apg on 24.4ast%, 29.4PER
Wade '08-'09: 30.2ppg on 57.4ts% and 51.6efg%, 5.0rpg on 7.8trb%, 7.5apg on 40.3ast%, 30.4PER

Post-season
KG: 24.3ppg on 51.3ts% and 45.8efg%, 14.6rpg on 19.3trb%, 5.1apg on 24.1ast%, 25.0PER
Wade: 29.1ppg on 56.5ts% and 49.7efg%, 5.0rpg on 7.8trb%, 5.3apg on 31.4ast%, 26.3PER

Wade's best post-season performances aren't even in '09, it was in '06, '10, and '11.

Yeah. But All-Team awards are a sham nowadays. It is instead given because of reputation(Kobe), or because a player surprised us this past season(Rose).

Dragonyeuw

11-07-2011, 12:17 PM

Karl Malone

Jacks3

11-07-2011, 01:38 PM

lol @ that retarded Wade stan.

How was Kobe's All-NBA 1st Team a "reputation" vote?

25/5/5/2/24 PER in only 33 MPG while being the best player on a 57 win/#2 seed team. And, unlike Wade, he wasn't a side-kick. Unlike D-Whistle he was the focus for every opposing defense. Not to mention his clutch-time numbers destroys Wade's.

Dumass.

RRR3

11-07-2011, 01:41 PM

Jacks3

11-07-2011, 01:45 PM

RRR3

11-07-2011, 01:56 PM

Kobe is seriously the most overrated star ever.
:applause:

Jacks3

11-07-2011, 02:16 PM

Wade and T-Wack are seriously the most overrated stars ever.

Agreed.

RRR3

11-07-2011, 02:20 PM

Wahhh!!! It not fawuhr! Why wuz T-Mac so much bedda den Kobe befowr T-Mac got hurt! WAHHHHHH! Why is Wade so much bedda den Kobe now! WAHHHHH! I Wanted Kobe to be da best evah!!! WAHHH!
U :mad: bro? :lol

Jacks3

11-07-2011, 02:25 PM

Wahhh!!! It not fawuhr! Why wuz Kobe always so much bedda den T-Wack before T-Wack got hurt!Why did T-Wack not evn make it past the first round!!! WAHHHHHH! Why is Kobe so much bedda that any comparison is laughable now! WAHHHHH! I Wanted T-Wack the loser to be da best evah!!! WAHHH!He's not even close to Kobe!!!!!!!!!WAHHHHHH!
Stop crying, you phaggett. :facepalm

RRR3

11-07-2011, 02:35 PM

Stop crying, you phaggett. :facepalm
That's okay, my 2nd favorite player (LBJ) will surpass Kobe :pimp: 1 out of 2 ain't bad.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-07-2011, 02:37 PM

Round mound or D-rob. Barkley's peak was better, albeit marginally.

Deuce Bigalow

11-07-2011, 02:39 PM

Round mound or D-rob. Barkley's peak was better, albeit marginally.

pick one to vote for

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-07-2011, 02:40 PM

pick one to vote for

I'd have to go with Charles Barkley.

Jacks3

11-07-2011, 02:41 PM

That's okay, my 2nd favorite player (LBJ) will surpass Kobe :pimp:
I doubt it. :pimp:

RRR3

11-07-2011, 02:41 PM

I doubt it. :pimp:
Why? He's peak is better and he just has to start doing better in the finals and he'll be better than Kobe for sure. U scared? :roll:

RRR3

11-07-2011, 02:42 PM

I feel like David Robinson is underrated on ISH.

Jacks3

11-07-2011, 02:43 PM

Meh. Whatever. LeBron's one of my favorites. Don't really care if he "surpasses" Kobe or not TBH. :pimp:

Deuce Bigalow

11-07-2011, 02:45 PM

15 - Charles Barkley
7 - Karl Malone
6 - Kevin Garnett
3 - Elgin Baylor
3 - John Havlicek
3 - Dirk Nowitzki
2 - Bob Petitt
2 - Lebron James
1 - David Robinson
1 - Allen Iverson

Total - 43 votes

Deuce Bigalow

11-07-2011, 02:47 PM

That's okay, my 2nd favorite player (LBJ) will surpass Kobe :pimp: 1 out of 2 ain't bad.

0-2 championships with D-Wade and Bosh is going to surpass Kobe's legacy? lol

RRR3

11-07-2011, 02:48 PM

0-2 championships with D-Wade and Bosh is going to surpass Kobe's legacy? lol
OP is supposed to be unbiased and provide good arguments that aren't the same old rehashed pile of naked molerat dung. Just worth taking into consideration. Then again, I'm suspicious that you are another Swagg3r account and the ****3r hates LBJ and spams about him constantly. Go figure.

Deuce Bigalow

11-07-2011, 02:50 PM

OP is supposed to be unbiased and provide good arguments that aren't the same old rehashed pile of naked molerat dung. Just worth taking into consideration. Then again, I'm suspicious that you are another Swagg3r account and the ****3r hates LBJ and spams about him constantly. Go figure.

ok..., enough talk about lolbron

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-07-2011, 02:51 PM

I feel like David Robinson is underrated on ISH.

So do I. If David won a title sooner, perhaps before Timmy had arrived, he'd be right outside my top 10. Maybe even in it; his prime was a joy to watch, and incredibly dominant when you factor in the defensive side of the ball. Just recently I got the chance to see one of his 50pt games vs. the T-wolves. His ability to knock down that 12-15 footer really does get overlooked; a true integral part of his offensive skillset.

SpecialQue

11-07-2011, 03:45 PM

Jan95

11-07-2011, 03:53 PM

Dirk

thatoneblackguy

11-07-2011, 03:55 PM

Allen Iverson :lol

ShaqAttack3234

11-07-2011, 03:59 PM

Good to see Barkley winning. I think he should've been over a few guys who are ahead of him, but I can't complain with top 15.

So do I. If David won a title sooner, perhaps before Timmy had arrived, he'd be right outside my top 10. Maybe even in it; his prime was a joy to watch, and incredibly dominant when you factor in the defensive side of the ball. Just recently I got the chance to see one of his 50pt games vs. the T-wolves. His ability to knock down that 12-15 footer really does get overlooked; a true integral part of his offensive skillset.

I don't know if his 12-15 footer is overlooked. It'd be surprising if it was overlooked by anyone who watched him because that and David's quickness were his greatest strengths offensively. His ability to hit the shot facing up, combined with his quickness made him a tough match up. That and his ability to run the floor, which was something he did better than any big man or 7 footer I've seen. Unbelievable athlete. Avery Johnson threw a lot of lobs to Robinson as well, and there weren't many that he couldn't go up and get.

I'd say that Robinson's passing might get overlooked these days at least. Not as much when he played, but I don't hear as many people bring up his passing.

magnax1

11-07-2011, 04:55 PM

I'm surprised Barkley got in over Robinson. I don't really see why that would be with the huge defensive gap between the two. Even if you want to say Barkley is better on offense (which I don't really disagree with) you can't say it's by a large margin.

ShaqAttack3234

11-07-2011, 05:04 PM

Even if you want to say Barkley is better on offense (which I don't really disagree with) you can't say it's by a large margin.

Yes, you can, Barkley's offensive game held up way better in the playoffs for that reason. Barkley was considerably more dominant offensively. Why do you think David Robinson had so few big series offensively in the playoffs? One of them was vs the 1990 first round vs Denver(not a difficult team to have big numbers vs). Another was the 1991 first round vs Run TMC who were the 5th worst defensive team in the league and another team you could put up big numbers vs. And during that series, commentators were even pointing out out Robinson's numbers were "quiet" and watching the series, he wasn't dominating like his numbers suggested, and ultimately lost the series. The other big offensive series he had was in the first round once again vs the '96 Suns, also the 5th worst defensive team in the league and easily the worst defensive team to make the playoffs.

Quite a few series during Robinson's prime where he was around the 19-20 ppg on poor efficiency. More of those types than dominant offensive series.

magnax1

11-07-2011, 05:25 PM

Yes, you can, Barkley's offensive game held up way better in the playoffs for that reason. Barkley was considerably more dominant offensively. Why do you think David Robinson had so few big series offensively in the playoffs? One of them was vs the 1990 first round vs Denver(not a difficult team to have big numbers vs). Another was the 1991 first round vs Run TMC who were the 5th worst defensive team in the league and another team you could put up big numbers vs. And during that series, commentators were even pointing out out Robinson's numbers were "quiet" and watching the series, he wasn't dominating like his numbers suggested, and ultimately lost the series. The other big offensive series he had was in the first round once again vs the '96 Suns, also the 5th worst defensive team in the league and easily the worst defensive team to make the playoffs.

Quite a few series during Robinson's prime where he was around the 19-20 ppg on poor efficiency. More of those types than dominant offensive series.
That's underselling Robinson quite a bit. He definitely had some poor series, but he had his share of good series too. He had a pretty good playoffs all through the 95 playoffs, and even played pretty well against Hakeem even though he was outplayed by a large margin. He had a really good playoffs in 96 excluding the fact that he was constantly in foul trouble against Utah. 94 was pretty bad, but every year after that he never really did much worse then the 25-10 I'd expect of him. I haven't really watched any of him before 94, so I can't comment on that (not that it was really his prime anyway).
If you want to say that he never met his regular season standards, then I'd agree with that, but I never really expect that of a guy like Robinson who didn't really have a halfcourt skillset but Barkley never really exceeded that 25-10 mark in the playoffs either. The only time he did was 94 when he dominated a weak defensive warriors squad in the first round, and then went on too look like he wasn't really the same player he used to be in the second round. Barkley was a better offensive player just because of the fact that he was easy to build an offense around with his great passing and play close to the basket, but I don't think there is nearly as big of a gap as you're suggesting, and definitely not as big of a gap as Barkley's poor D and Robinson's DPOTY D.

DMAVS41

11-07-2011, 05:47 PM

That's underselling Robinson quite a bit. He definitely had some poor series, but he had his share of good series too. He had a pretty good playoffs all through the 95 playoffs, and even played pretty well against Hakeem even though he was outplayed by a large margin. He had a really good playoffs in 96 excluding the fact that he was constantly in foul trouble against Utah. 94 was pretty bad, but every year after that he never really did much worse then the 25-10 I'd expect of him. I haven't really watched any of him before 94, so I can't comment on that (not that it was really his prime anyway).
If you want to say that he never met his regular season standards, then I'd agree with that, but I never really expect that of a guy like Robinson who didn't really have a halfcourt skillset but Barkley never really exceeded that 25-10 mark in the playoffs either. The only time he did was 94 when he dominated a weak defensive warriors squad in the first round, and then went on too look like he wasn't really the same player he used to be in the second round. Barkley was a better offensive player just because of the fact that he was easy to build an offense around with his great passing and play close to the basket, but I don't think there is nearly as big of a gap as you're suggesting, and definitely not as big of a gap as Barkley's poor D and Robinson's DPOTY D.

a lot of this is true, but i will say i never would take robinson over barkley. even with barkley being a significantly worse defender. barkley was really just a better basketball player. i know that is general and broad, but its just how i feel.

there is no doubt that robinson's offense was closer to barkley's offense than barkley's defense was to robinson's defense. but breaking down players like that just doesn't work. i've been trying to say this for a long time now, but nobody seems to listen. you just lose sight of what it means to be better or have more value than another player.

lets say barkley is a 10 out of 10 on offense for simplicity reasons. robinson would then be around an 8...7 at worst.

lets say robinson is 10 out 10 on defense for the same reason. barkley would then be probably a 3 on defense.

so that would make barkley a 13 and robinson a 17 overall. and sadly, that is how a lot of people think when they evaluate players.

but in this case...like most cases...it doesn't work. its just my opinion, but i thought barkely was just the better overall player. not in a landslide or anything, but noticeably better....especially in the playoffs (and that is by far the most important thing for me)

we really need to stop the offense vs offense....then defense vs defense breakdowns....you just don't come to the right conclusions often at all.

ShaqAttack3234

11-07-2011, 07:15 PM

That's underselling Robinson quite a bit. He definitely had some poor series, but he had his share of good series too. He had a pretty good playoffs all through the 95 playoffs, and even played pretty well against Hakeem even though he was outplayed by a large margin.

Robinson really didn't play all that well vs Hakeem.

23.8 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 2.7 apg, 4.5 TO, 2.2 bpg, 1.5 spg, 44.9 FG%

And 1st round vs Denver- 19 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 3.3 apg, 2 TO, 1.3 bpg, 2 spg, 42.9 FG%

And my point was that the gap was big offensively.

He had a really good playoffs in 96 excluding the fact that he was constantly in foul trouble against Utah.

You mean, he had a really good series against the Suns who were the 5th worst defensive team in the entire league and worst in the playoffs and then struggled vs Utah? That's a really good playoffs? No, it's 1 really good series(against a weak opponent) and 1 disappointing series against a stronger opponent. Even the much better Suns teams from '93-'95 were never what I'd call strong defensive teams, and their interior defense in particular was always suspect. But the '96 team was considerably worse. They had really fallen off.

19.3 ppg and 9 rpg on 47.5% shooting vs Utah in '96.

94 was pretty bad, but every year after that he never really did much worse then the 25-10 I'd expect of him. I haven't really watched any of him before 94, so I can't comment on that (not that it was really his prime anyway).

Robinson's prime was pretty much from his rookie season up until the injury, imo.

If you want to say that he never met his regular season standards, then I'd agree with that, but I never really expect that of a guy like Robinson who didn't really have a halfcourt skillset

That's part of my point on why the gap is significant offensively. Barkley was a guy who could faceup like Robinson, or you could throw the ball to him in the post and he'd usually score or get doubled. Barkley was also great in transition like Robinson, one of the best offensive rebounders I've ever seen and never played soft. Chuck might take an ill-advised 3 every now and then(more as he got older), but he was a tough player. Even Robinson's drives seemed softer in the playoffs and he seemed more passive. I never saw that from Chuck.

but Barkley never really exceeded that 25-10 mark in the playoffs either. The only time he did was 94 when he dominated a weak defensive warriors squad in the first round, and then went on too look like he wasn't really the same player he used to be in the second round.

You mean for series or full playoff runs? Chuck averaged 27/14/4 in 24 playoff games to lead the Suns to the '93 finals.

For the most part he was around 25 ppg, but better rebounding numbers, here are his other multi-series runs from his prime('88-'93) or just before and just after.

1986- 26/16/6, 58 FG%, 63 TS% in 12 playoff games(Chuck's second season)
1990- 25/15/4, 54 FG%, 59 TS% in 10 playoff games
1991- 25/11/6, 59 FG%, 63 TS% in 8 playoff games
1995- 26/13/3, 50 FG%, 58 TS% in 10 playoff games

So yeah, typically around 25 ppg, but on excellent efficiency.

and definitely not as big of a gap as Barkley's poor D and Robinson's DPOTY D.

Yeah, that's true, but I agree with DMavs on that one. You could argue that the gap between Ben Wallace's defense and Steve Nash's defense vs both of their offense is larger, but I wouldn't hesitate to call Nash the better player.

Robinson's all-time great defensive ability makes it legitimate to pick Robinson. I think Barkley was better regardless, but I'm just arguing that the gap was significant offensively.

NugzHeat3

11-07-2011, 08:00 PM

I'd take Barkley over Robinson too for the reasons ShaqAttack3234 mentioned.

I'd say Robinson was a great passer in a high low situation; i.e, if he's creating plays from the high post. Quick, accurate feeds. But he's not effective if he's creating from the block because double teams could really effect him quite a bit while facing up and he'd succumb to pressure and end up making a bad, early decision on the kickout.

Look at his turnovers in that 1995 series vs Houston in the losses. IIRC, they were around 6-7 a game.

In 1994, Lucas had him playing point-center making him the primary playmaker since they had no point guard. That's one of the reasons for his high assists, they were a testament to his talent but also a result of the system. Sort of a Bill Walton role. You also don't create as many hockey assists from this style of play as opposed to the prototypical back to basket game.

The point-center position is Lucas' special gift. Robinson posts up when he wants, but is most dangerous facing the basket near the free throw line, most often on the right side. Facing the basket, he can shoot, drive or pass, or run a pick-and-roll. Low-post players are easy to double-team, and a player double-teamed there has limited options. No defense can be set to stop him because he could be anywhere. His shooting range makes defenders stay close, yet he has the quickness to drive past them.
^USA Today. Mar 10, 1994.

NugzHeat3

11-07-2011, 08:07 PM

Barkley is more of an intimidating presence (I don't mean defensively) and a leader. He brought that toughness the Suns lacked, Robinson didn't particularly lead teams in the playoffs because he was setting a bad example crumbling under pressure.

When your best player is being clowned and not taken seriously like how the Jazz treated him or how Hakeem treated him defensively, it just doesn't inspire your team and you end up losing motivation. I'd bet this is one of the reasons Rodman caused problems in the 1995 playoffs because he didn't trust Robinson to take the Spurs all the way.

David's much more of a second banana in that regard because then he can play his game and not have to fit in.

Those 1989-1992 Suns teams were probably just as talented as the 1993-95 ones but they weren't as feared so Barkley took them to the next level in that sense and I'm saying this despite the fact that I'm not impressed by their asterisk filled finals run.

EDIT: That said, Robinson is a superior second fiddle to Barkley and he is much more stable of a personality so if you keep the thought of drafting, building long-term in mind, then that may sway the edge in Robinson's favor. Though longevity doesn't matter much because Robinson got injury in 1996 and was never the same player after.

magnax1

11-07-2011, 08:10 PM

a lot of this is true, but i will say i never would take robinson over barkley. even with barkley being a significantly worse defender. barkley was really just a better basketball player. i know that is general and broad, but its just how i feel.

there is no doubt that robinson's offense was closer to barkley's offense than barkley's defense was to robinson's defense. but breaking down players like that just doesn't work. i've been trying to say this for a long time now, but nobody seems to listen. you just lose sight of what it means to be better or have more value than another player.

lets say barkley is a 10 out of 10 on offense for simplicity reasons. robinson would then be around an 8...7 at worst.

lets say robinson is 10 out 10 on defense for the same reason. barkley would then be probably a 3 on defense.

so that would make barkley a 13 and robinson a 17 overall. and sadly, that is how a lot of people think when they evaluate players.

but in this case...like most cases...it doesn't work. its just my opinion, but i thought barkely was just the better overall player. not in a landslide or anything, but noticeably better....especially in the playoffs (and that is by far the most important thing for me)

we really need to stop the offense vs offense....then defense vs defense breakdowns....you just don't come to the right conclusions often at all.
I'd agree with that for perimeter players. Or at least most perimeter players, but I think if you start doing that for defense, then you're just underselling the impact an individual can have on defense. In my opinion rebounding/possesion of the ball=defense=offense, and saying anything different is just underselling one of those three.

Odinn

11-07-2011, 08:23 PM

14 - Charles Barkley
7 - Karl Malone
6 - Kevin Garnett
3 - Elgin Baylor
3 - John Havlicek
3 - Dirk Nowitzki
2 - Bob Petitt
2 - Lebron James
1 - David Robinson

Total - 41 votes
There were 2 options for me and one of them was K. Malone and the another one was Barkley.

Good to see Barkley winning.:cheers:

BEAST Griffin

11-07-2011, 08:24 PM

Charles Barkley

Round Mound

11-07-2011, 08:27 PM

Charles Barkley SHOT this in the Play-Offs in the big man region (2-point fg)

22.5 PPG on ONLY 14.5 Two-Point FGAs PG and Shot 55.13% in the Two-Point Region.

Barkley was a way better offensive player than D-Rob. Not only that he was the Best Creating PF Ever Off Double and Triple Teams and a Great Assister aswell.

Barkley has a Higher Play-Off PER (Top 11 All Time) than D-Rob.

He was also a Better Rebounder.

David Robinson had Interior D and Shot Blocking Over Chuck. Nothing much else.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-07-2011, 08:34 PM

Good to see Barkley winning. I think he should've been over a few guys who are ahead of him, but I can't complain with top 15.

I don't know if his 12-15 footer is overlooked. It'd be surprising if it was overlooked by anyone who watched him because that and David's quickness were his greatest strengths offensively. His ability to hit the shot facing up, combined with his quickness made him a tough match up. That and his ability to run the floor, which was something he did better than any big man or 7 footer I've seen. Unbelievable athlete. Avery Johnson threw a lot of lobs to Robinson as well, and there weren't many that he couldn't go up and get.

I'd say that Robinson's passing might get overlooked these days at least. Not as much when he played, but I don't hear as many people bring up his passing.

You're probably right, but the thing is MOST people didn't watch him. MOST people here only recognize Robinson for his defensive prowess, totally ignoring his innate offensive abilities. Good call on the passing though. His touch-passes from the post were really uncanny for someone his size (almost like Shaq in a way).

David's brilliant rookie season is right there with his MVP year, imo. A 32-game improvement (biggest in NBA history) is insane no matter how you slice it.

magnax1

11-07-2011, 08:42 PM

Robinson really didn't play all that well vs Hakeem.

23.8 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 2.7 apg, 4.5 TO, 2.2 bpg, 1.5 spg, 44.9 FG%

And 1st round vs Denver- 19 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 3.3 apg, 2 TO, 1.3 bpg, 2 spg, 42.9 FG%
I definitely wouldn't call that bad. THe Denver series was pretty terrible, but not vs. Hakeem. He got outplayed badly, but he still played like a top 5 player.

You mean, he had a really good series against the Suns who were the 5th worst defensive team in the entire league and worst in the playoffs and then struggled vs Utah? That's a really good playoffs? No, it's 1 really good series(against a weak opponent) and 1 disappointing series against a stronger opponent. Even the much better Suns teams from '93-'95 were never what I'd call strong defensive teams, and their interior defense in particular was always suspect. But the '96 team was considerably worse. They had really fallen off.

19.3 ppg and 9 rpg on 47.5% shooting vs Utah in '96.
Like I said, the foul trouble had a ton to do with his poor #s in Utah. He had 2 really bad games, 1 where he fouled out while playing very few minutes, and the other was inexcusable. Then the last two games he got in foul trouble too, and didn't play as terribly, but it still limited him. When he got a good chance, he played well.

Robinson's prime was pretty much from his rookie season up until the injury, imo.
Maybe. Like I said, I really have barely watched him pre 94, so I wouldn't know.

That's part of my point on why the gap is significant offensively. Barkley was a guy who could faceup like Robinson, or you could throw the ball to him in the post and he'd usually score or get doubled. Barkley was also great in transition like Robinson, one of the best offensive rebounders I've ever seen and never played soft. Chuck might take an ill-advised 3 every now and then(more as he got older), but he was a tough player. Even Robinson's drives seemed softer in the playoffs and he seemed more passive. I never saw that from Chuck.
I mostly agree, and that's why I say Barkley was the better offensive player, but I think overall Robinson was better. Robinson was both an elite offensive and defensive player. Barkley was an elite offensive player with defense ranging from poor to among the worst in the league depending on the year.

You mean for series or full playoff runs? Chuck averaged 27/14/4 in 24 playoff games to lead the Suns to the '93 finals.
You're right. I somehow didn't notice 93, but otherwise I was pretty much right. He never really peaked out at more then 25-10+ in extended playoff runs.

Yeah, that's true, but I agree with DMavs on that one. You could argue that the gap between Ben Wallace's defense and Steve Nash's defense vs both of their offense is larger, but I wouldn't hesitate to call Nash the better player.
I don't think that particular comparison works since Nash is a point guard, but maybe someone like Barkley his last couple years in Phoenix, or big who was awful on defense like that is probably a close comparison. Though I think Barkley's Offense was probably worse then Ben's D at that point, the opposite is a good comparison.

Robinson's all-time great defensive ability makes it legitimate to pick Robinson. I think Barkley was better regardless, but I'm just arguing that the gap was significant offensively.
I see where you're coming from, but I just don't really agree.

NugzHeat3

11-07-2011, 08:54 PM

magnax1, if Robinson's playing time is being limited by foul trouble, he deserves blame for it. No excuses, its his job to stay on the court.

I'd like to see the foul calls though because a couple of them may have been questionable but when he's consistently in foul trouble, I'd say its a sign there was something wrong. I remember him being matched up with Karl Malone quite a lot so I'd vouch Malone may have been drawing some of those fouls. Maybe getting under his skin.

That series vs Hakeem is just bad defensively and not that great offensively either. I wouldn't really say Hakeem shut him down but Hakeem definitely lit him up. His weak numbers on offense were due to a combination of playing under pressure (he was just making bad decisions), how much slower the game is and the Rockets double teaming him. Hakeem did contest his jumpers very well but there were times where Robinson got him in single coverage and blew by him. Charles Jones shut him down in game one though when he came in with Hakeem in foul trouble. That was a bit inexcusable.