Players go LIVE in a few moments [link inside]

[OmniStrife]

http://www.nba.com/home/live1/

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/221366/AcF3dwCCAAEOzzQ.png

[Clutch]

Please,LET IT BE OVER

[cuad]

EDIT: never mind.

[Clutch]

**** you players

[DevilsAssassin]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[chazzy]

Offer rejected

[OmniStrife]

Well ****.

[DevilsAssassin]

well this thread is useless

[Rab]

See ya next year NBA.

[SunsCaptain]

rofl

:facepalm

:banghead:

:cry:

[outbreak]

bye bye nba

[Clutch]

I'm angry.
So angry that I want players to end up with a 30% BRI :lol

[vinsanity2756]

omg really, how stubborn can you be

[DuMa]

http://i1038.photobucket.com/albums/a461/Danielle2292A/how_to_slit_wrist.gif

[Mr Know It All]

Players just made one of the most moronic decisions in NBA history here, unless they have a meeting in their pocket for tomorrow with the owners.

NBA season is probably toast now. Players will get 45% and a tight system next summer, REALLY stupid.:facepalm

[RRR3]

what the **** stop this shit

[Yung D-Will]

They didn't vote :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

**** YOU FISHHHHHHHHHHH

[SunsCaptain]

They didn't vote :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

**** YOU FISHHHHHHHHHHH

Sounds like they (fish and hunter) are saying..."well the players dont understand! only we do!!! we dont care if they want to play because we are the deciders!"

[Mr Know It All]

The players are approaching this in a moronic way. They are saying "We're not intimated!", when in reality they simply fail to understand that Stern just told the truth. The hard line owners will take over now, and this thing will get very ugly. I think decertification is next, with the owners calling the players bluff.

[Rab]

I'm officially unplugging from the NBA for the year. Good job union, you just cost yourselves a HEFTY chunk of change for years to come.

[UtahJazzFan88]

You guys thought they would vote and a deal would be done today? :facepalm :confusedshrug:

[boozehound]

Sounds like they (fish and hunter) are saying..."well the players dont understand! only we do!!! we dont care if they want to play because we are the deciders!"
I will say that the union leadership (even as a representative elected body) has been really dumb about this. Let the players poll themselves.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Losing my faith in these new-era players (and reps). No words can describe how angry I am as a fan.

[Clutch]

You guys thought they would vote and a deal would be done today? :facepalm :confusedshrug:
That would have happened if they were smart.
But obviously they aren't.

[boozehound]

You guys thought they would vote and a deal would be done today? :facepalm :confusedshrug:
no, I dont think anyone expected it, but I think we were hoping for it. They are really really dumb if they think they have any remaining leverage, even with decertification.

[SunsCaptain]

Losing my faith in these new-era players (and reps). No words can describe how angry I am as a fan.

Well what it sounded like is the players want to play and want a deal...Its fish and hunter saying the players dont understand.

Also I think there is some major ego shit at work

[Ruutu]

So there is no season this year...its sucks...

[boozehound]

Losing my faith in these new-era players (and reps). No words can describe how angry I am as a fan.
well, not sure why AAU-on privileged divas should be expected to act any different really. When the majority of star players in this era (KG, bron) cant even use proper language in an interview and they all live their conspicuous consumption lifestyles to excess, I dont really see why we would think they would be smart about this business decision.

[Rab]

So they really didn't even put this to a vote with the player reps? I'm at work and can't get the stream. If someone could paraphrase a little for me, it would be greatly appreciated.

[DuMa]

Hunter on MJ: "I would give him the same advice that he gave to Abe Pollin"

[Clutch]

Enjoy in the next offer players.
47% BRI,rollback of contracts and a hard cap :roll: :roll: :roll:

I was on your side but after this stupid move you deserved that.

[SunsCaptain]

way to be a dick to the reporter....:mad:

[PJR]

Billy Hunter just ethered MJ. :oldlol:

[Mr Know It All]

Enjoy in the next offer players.
47% BRI,rollback of contracts and a hard cap :roll: :roll: :roll:

I was on your side but after this stupid move you deserved that.

I agree that it is deserving. They think decertification or an NLRB decision can save them, they are completely delusional. There will be an enormous shakeup once the NBA gets the deal it wants, Billy Hunter and Derek Fisher will live in infamy and I feel the NBPA will change the way they do things forever.

[StroShow4]

F@ckin' idiots.

[Clutch]

Well it seems there is just one thing left for me :lol

http://www.jlh-design.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/noose.jpg

[RRR3]

*Waits for someone to start blaming LeBron, then for Pauk to blame Kobe, and for thread to be derailed*

[DMAVS41]

I agree that it is deserving. They think decertification or an NLRB decision can save them, they are completely delusional. There will be an enormous shakeup once the NBA gets the deal it wants, Billy Hunter and Derek Fisher will live in infamy and I feel the NBPA will change the way they do things forever.

Its hilarious how Fisher and Hunter continue to use the word "fair"....are they really that dense?

Was it "fair" that NBA players had the highest salaries of all American sports the last decade even though the NFL and MLB were far more profitable?

The word "fair" has no place in a negotiation like this. The players and the union still can't grasp that concept and its going to bite them in the ass.

At this point I really do hope the owners stand firm and offer them 47% and a hard cap on Thursday. Can't wait to see the players begging for that by the time next fall rolls around and they've gone over a year without checks from the NBA.

[SunsCaptain]

Well it seems there is just one thing left for me :lol

http://www.jlh-design.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/noose.jpg

A lightbulb made out of rope?

[OmniStrife]

http://i.imgur.com/fVUVs.png

[IamSofaKing]

When do you honestly think theyre going to get a deal done? Watch this go on till next season...

[DFish]

I'm waiting for Sarcastic to jog in and defend these idiotic players.

[SunsCaptain]

I'm waiting for Sarcastic to log in and defend these idiotic players.

PLEASE NO!!!!

:banghead:

[boozehound]

http://i.imgur.com/fVUVs.png
who the **** are these frogs?

[Clutch]

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
RT @TrueHoop: Billy Hunter not taking David Stern's threat seriously, saying he expects 50/50 offer won't go away no matter what happens WED
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Silly players.They still don't get it.
Owners weren't joking when they said offer will get worse.
Well,exactly 24 hours left until the deadline.We will find out soon.

[Lebron23]

Just accept the offer.

[RRR3]

Just accept the offer.
This. Do you want to play or not? :facepalm

[DevilsAssassin]

who the **** are these frogs?
http://i.qkme.me/2ztf.jpg

[Yung D-Will]

"Sorry arena workers and parking lot attendants, but you can go **** yourselves," Fisher didn't add.

:cry:

[DevilsAssassin]

This. Do you want to play or not? :facepalm

it's ****ing Derek Fisher and Billy Hunter acting like dumba$$:mad:

[vinsanity2756]

and that billy hunter has the nerve to smile, and grin to the media while he's talking

[Rab]

I expected this, but it's still a little shocking to read about it. Truly the union can't be this stupid. Wow. They deserve the crap offer they'll get next. That will be the last item of joy I'll receive from the NBA for a long time.

[Clutch]

When do you honestly think theyre going to get a deal done? Watch this go on till next season...
I thought they were going to get a deal done by Wednesday but obviously they didn't do like they supposed to.
Right now I really don't know what to think.

[RRR3]

it's ****ing Derek Fisher and Billy Hunter acting like dumba$$:mad:
Didn't Fisher accept a deal a few weeks ago but Hunter talked him out of it?

[Applause]

:( :(

[SunsCaptain]

:( :(

:applause: ?

[Lebron23]

http://hoopsafrique.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/BillyHunterDavidStern.jpg

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Burgz]

i missed it can someone give me a brief run down?

[Applause]

:applause: ?

:no:








:confusedshrug:























:applause:

[Mr Know It All]

As much as this sucks, I would pay money to be in the room if the players take this beyond Wednesday without a deal and they come to the table again. The owners basically standing at 47% and the hard cap and the players whining how unfair everything is, would be a riot. NHL players were just as stupid and ended up with a miserable deal in the summer of the next year.

[Vienceslav]

Wow , the mood has really shifted , almost nobody here is on the players side anymore. Can

[boozehound]

anyone think this way early announcement is the unions desperate attempt to get the owners to accommodate some of the union's demands over the next 24 hours, before the offer is off the table?

[RRR3]

anyone think this way early announcement is the unions desperate attempt to get the owners to accommodate some of the union's demands over the next 24 hours, before the offer is off the table?
I'll think anything if it means convincing myself to hope for a season lol.

[Fiasco]

Did I Miss It!?

[SunsCaptain]

anyone think this way early announcement is the unions desperate attempt to get the owners to accommodate some of the union's demands over the next 24 hours, before the offer is off the table?

Thats what I was thinking... A bluff before the deadline. I dont think the owners will budge...

[StroShow4]

The owners basically standing at 47% and the hard cap and the players whining how unfair everything is, would be a riot.

Agreed.

The players need to completely forget the word "fair." Delete it from their vocabulary. There's no fair in business. They've got no leverage, and that's all that matters.

Maybe 50 percent isn't "fair", but that's the best f@cking deal you're going to get. Take it.

[Rab]

anyone think this way early announcement is the unions desperate attempt to get the owners to accommodate some of the union's demands over the next 24 hours, before the offer is off the table?
I read an article today about how Stern was willing to meet with Hunter and the union to discuss the deal on the table, but that Hunter hadn't accepted. There still is a little less than a day left before the deadline. I do think the sides will talk to tomorrow, but I am not hopeful they will get anything accomplished. If anything, the owners are probably toasting each other and high fiving knowing that are going to really stick it to the union soon. I can't help but feel that the union has really shot themselves in the foot here.

[OmniStrife]

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/221366/AcF3dwCCAAEOzzQ.png

[Fiasco]

Agreed.

The players need to completely forget the word "fair." Delete it from their vocabulary. There's no fair in business. They've got no leverage, and that's all that matters.

Maybe 50 percent isn't "fair", but that's the best f@cking deal you're going to get. Take it.

Owners don't have a product. What's their leverage? :lol

I'm almost baffled how everyone wants the players to take a shitty deal, and then calls them selfish when they don't. Pot, meet kettle.

[StroShow4]

Owners don't have a product. What's their leverage? :lol

The owners don't depend on the NBA for their income.

[Rnbizzle]

Well this just ****ed up my day.

[DuMa]

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Hunter says sign-and-trade, mid-level exception, the tax cliff and the escrow are the major issues.

[SunsCaptain]

Owners don't have a product. What's their leverage? :lol

I'm almost baffled how everyone wants the players to take a shitty deal, and then calls them selfish when they don't. Pot, meet kettle.

When in Rome.

[Mr Know It All]

Agreed.

The players need to completely forget the word "fair." Delete it from their vocabulary. There's no fair in business. They've got no leverage, and that's all that matters.

Maybe 50 percent isn't "fair", but that's the best f@cking deal you're going to get. Take it.

I think the players are just being manipulated by bad influences. Before the press conference the players were laughing and joking as if this wasn't a big deal, as if their future wasn't hanging in the balance, these guys don't understand what's happening. Fisher has his own agenda, this new CBA is especially bad for a player like him, and any future big contracts. Hunter doesn't want to lose his job by conceding that Stern beat him badly, and will take down the rest of the players to preserve himself.

As far as the rest of their council, we have NBPA lawyers, also fighting for self preservation, and agents who are the most greedy of any figure in this fight. This whole process has irritated me to no end, and I have followed it very closely since it's beginning. I'm hoping for reason and a chance to come together between the two sides tomorrow, but I no longer believe that is possible at this stage. The players will struggle in this fight and the owners will crush them. At this point I'm just interested in the fall out of it all, and how guys like Fisher, Pierce, Garnett, and the rest of these players who have doomed the future will explain themselves.

[DuMa]

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Hunter says he's hearing through "underground" that if no deal by 5 p.m., NBA will cancel games through Christmas.

[thejumpa]

Wait it out for as long as it takes. Don't take a bad deal "just because".

[Rab]

Owners don't have a product. What's their leverage? :lol

I'm almost baffled how everyone wants the players to take a shitty deal, and then calls them selfish when they don't. Pot, meet kettle.
How about they have other sources of income? How about they can sustain a work stoppage much longer than the average NBA player? They pretty much have all the leverage here, and they're using it.

The last CBA wasn't great for the owners, and the economic climate has changed dramatically. Players want a fair deal, but there is no such thing when the players don't hold many cards.

[DuMa]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Hunter: "I anticipate we will have a meeting (with NBA) before 5 o'clock tomorrow."

[AMISTILLILL]

I'm waiting for Sarcastic to jog in and defend these idiotic players.

Seriously.

[Heavincent]

The shit-for-brain players are getting what they deserve. They're retarded for not accepting the deal.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Wait it out for as long as it takes. Don't take a bad deal "just because".

If they wait it out they're going to end up taking a worse deal than what's being offered. It's only going to get worse for the players. They're friggin' idiots for not taking this deal.

[boozehound]

Owners don't have a product. What's their leverage? :lol

I'm almost baffled how everyone wants the players to take a shitty deal, and then calls them selfish when they don't. Pot, meet kettle.
how the **** do the owners not have a product? The product is the league. The players are simply the labor pool and, guess what, they change every year (some of them). Now, sure, they cant make their product without the labor (like gm and the UAW), but they still own the means of production. Now, you can argue that some of their laborers are so highly skilled they are unique but, really, without the league, their skills are not worth much.

Just as a hypothetical, lets say a star like lebron were blackballed and went to europe. Would the league suffer? sure, a bit. but new stars and storylines would take his place. Meanwhile, lebron would be playing somewhere in euroleague, with much lower tv exposure, much lower advertising $, etc. Lebron is not a star without the worldwide platform of the NBA. To build even the best 12 teams in europe to the exposure level of the current nba would take decades.

[Fiasco]

The owners don't depend on the NBA for their income.

Players could go to Europe. It's not the end of the world.

[StroShow4]

I think the players are just being manipulated by bad influences. Before the press conference the players were laughing and joking as if this wasn't a big deal, as if their future wasn't hanging in the balance, these guys don't understand what's happening. Fisher has his own agenda, this new CBA is especially bad for a player like him, and any future big contracts. Hunter doesn't want to lose his job by conceding that Stern beat him badly, and will take down the rest of the players to preserve himself.

As far as the rest of their council, we have NBPA lawyers, also fighting for self preservation, and agents who are the most greedy of any figure in this fight. This whole process has irritated me to no end, and I have followed it very closely since it's beginning. I'm hoping for reason and a chance to come together between the two sides tomorrow, but I no longer believe that is possible at this stage. The players will struggle in this fight and the owners will crush them. At this point I'm just interested in the fall out of it all, and how guys like Fisher, Pierce, Garnett, and the rest of these players who have doomed the future will explain themselves.

I think pride has played a pretty big role in their inability to come to a deal as well. The players refuse to admit that the owners have them beat here. They need to let all of that sh!t go and make a smart business decision--not a poor, emotional one.

[SunsCaptain]

I am thinking today was a way of sending a bluff through the media.

Then they want to meet tomorrow before the deadline to try to get a better deal. Then they can fall back on the deal on the table.

If I was the owners I wouldnt meet them or talk to them. Just let the clock count down. Give them only the option of the deal.

[StroShow4]

Players could go to Europe. It's not the end of the world.

You think there's NBA money waiting in Europe for every single player in the NBA? LOL. :oldlol:

[thejumpa]

If they wait it out they're going to end up taking a worse deal than what's being offered. It's only going to get worse for the players. They're friggin' idiots for not taking this deal.

Yeah, we'll see about that. I'm not ready to hop on the "players are stupid for not taking this deal" just yet. If it IS a bad deal, then why accept it?

[ConanRulesNBC]

Players could go to Europe. It's not the end of the world.

The problem is these leagues in Europe will quit giving out huge amounts of money to anyone who isn't a superstar. Now that the big names are playing there they don't need to over pay guys who are past their primes or scrub players.

[icewill36]

Players could go to Europe. It's not the end of the world.

uhm just how many rosters spots do u think are open overseas ? not every guy can go, or will be wanted over there. it isnt like american players currently there are just tearing it up any way. big name players can, most lower level guys are screwed.

they absolutely need to make a deal tomorrow.

[SunsCaptain]

You think there's NBA money waiting in Europe for every single player in the NBA? LOL. :oldlol:

Seriously... Every player would get paid more excepting the deal. Not to mention all the players who cant get on a roster.

:hammerhead:

[Sarcastic]

Everyone calm down.
We still have the WNBA.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Yeah, we'll see about that. I'm not ready to hop on the "players are stupid for not taking this deal" just yet. If it IS a bad deal, then why accept it?

We're past that now. The players ARE stupid for not taking this deal. The owners are only going to come back with offers even worse after this one. The players will look like the biggest morons in a couple months when they accept a worse deal than the one being offered right now.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Players could go to Europe. It's not the end of the world.

You need to leave your igloo and wake the f*ck up.

[boozehound]

Players could go to Europe. It's not the end of the world.
go figure out what average team salaries are in europe and then come back and say that. CSKA Moscow, which has one of the highest salary expenditures across FIBA teams, and its only 25 million or so. Which is close to what KG is due, by himself, this coming year.

[Fiasco]

how the **** do the owners not have a product?

Um, because there is a lockout right now.


The product is the league.

Wrong.


The players are simply the labor pool and, guess what, they change every year (some of them). Now, sure, they cant make their product without the labor (like gm and the UAW), but they still own the means of production. Now, you can argue that some of their laborers are so highly skilled they are unique but, really, without the league, their skills are not worth much.

You must be new so I'll give you a pass. The "league" is what facilitates the prouct, not the other way around. You can't "sell" the league.

And not worth much to whom? Good thing basketball isn't exclusive to the States.


Just as a hypothetical, lets say a star like lebron were blackballed and went to europe. Would the league suffer? sure, a bit. but new stars and storylines would take his place. Meanwhile, lebron would be playing somewhere in euroleague, with much lower tv exposure, much lower advertising $, etc. Lebron is not a star without the worldwide platform of the NBA. To build even the best 12 teams in europe to the exposure level of the current nba would take decades.

Guy has a thousand sponsors already. He doesn't give a shit about $ anymore. He's already a world renown star: you can bet your ass people are going to tune into the Euroleague if he starts playing there.

And we're not talking about "one guy" going to play in Europe. Hundreds of players (and stars) could move. The powerhouse NBA would be left with nothing if they had no stars.


How about they have other sources of income? How about they can sustain a work stoppage much longer than the average NBA player? They pretty much have all the leverage here, and they're using it.

The last CBA wasn't great for the owners, and the economic climate has changed dramatically. Players want a fair deal, but there is no such thing when the players don't hold many cards.

What, and the players don't have another way out? Average NBA players can find work in any country that has a professional basketball team/league.

The last CBA wasn't that great, sure. Owners are right to be asking for concessions. 53% was calculated as the required decrease to sufficiently compensate for all the money lost. And the players were willing to accept that, hell they're even going to 51%.

So please tell me who the real assholes are, because I'm having a hard time with Jordan getting mad at the players for not taking a shit offer.

[B]

anyone think this way early announcement is the unions desperate attempt to get the owners to accommodate some of the union's demands over the next 24 hours, before the offer is off the table?Of course it is. There were some owners willing to meet again. They'll schedule a meeting the owners will extend the ultimatum.

BTW to everyone saying goodbye to an NBA season the drop dead dates are still weeks away from cancelling the season. That's why this is not unexpected The players still want the NLRB threat to come into play and the Owners still have not faced having to return TV money yet. It's a solid move by the players.
They extended an olive branch and made it clear that they feel they are close on the deal, with a couple tweeks to the system and requested meetings. Now it's the owners turn.

[thejumpa]

We're past that now. The players ARE stupid for not taking this deal. The owners are only going to come back with offers even worse after this one. The players will look like the biggest morons in a couple months when they accept a worse deal than the one being offered right now.

So basically.....they should cave even though it's a bad deal and the deal may continue to get worse from here on? Stern is a puppet. I guess it comes down to if you really think his wednesday deadline and threat is real or not.

[SunsCaptain]

All I hear this guy saying is 5% of the NBA can go play in Europe for shit money because they wont except a shit deal that offers them more money and the rest of the NBA...the other 95%...can sit around and twiddle their thumbs.

Sound like the players are set! Maybe they should hold out for 5+ years because they have it so good. Make sure they get a real solid deal.

[StroShow4]

Also, the players will be missing checks on starting on the 16th, correct? With every missed check they will become more desperate to have an NBA. The owners aren't stupid, they understand this... so they know the ball is in their court. The longer the players wait, the more money they will lose on their way to a worse deal than the one on the table as of right now. So, they'll be losing money they could've been making this season in order to fight a losing battle that will lead to lower earnings in the future. Real smart. :oldlol:

[e-LIMON-ators]

seriously you guys don't see what they just did? They are willing to accept a lower BRI split to address the system issues. Basically they are not greedy bastards like the owners and care about more important things to them, like freedom to chose where they play, more than money. You guys are just emotional because more games will be cancelled. Player movement is GOOD for the league. They want to meet with the owners to address the system issues. I don't think it's an unreasonable request to make before this "deadline". The ball is in the owners court, if they concede on some system issues we have a deal.

[Burgz]

why?

the players have no leverage.

I dont think Hunter and Fisher understand that the NBA is a business. when you are given one rational option and another option which is completely and utterly idiotic you'd think the NBAPA would make the rational decision

Instead they chose to blow up the season on themselves.

RIP the 11/12 season

[boozehound]

Um, because there is a lockout right now.



Wrong.



You must be new so I'll give you a pass. The "league" is what facilitates the prouct, not the other way around. You can't "sell" the league.

And not worth much to whom? Good thing basketball isn't exclusive to the States.



Guy has a thousand sponsors already. He doesn't give a shit about $ anymore. He's already a world renown star: you can bet your ass people are going to tune into the Euroleague if he starts playing there.

And we're not talking about "one guy" going to play in Europe. Hundreds of players (and stars) could move. The powerhouse NBA would be left with nothing if they had no stars.



What, and the players don't have another way out? Average NBA players can find work in any country that has a professional basketball team/league.

The last CBA wasn't that great, sure. Owners are right to be asking for concessions. 53% was calculated as the required decrease to sufficiently compensate for all the money lost. And the players were willing to accept that, hell they're even going to 51%.

So please tell me who the real assholes are, because I'm having a hard time with Jordan getting mad at the players for not taking a shit offer.
wow, you are delusional. So, owning the means of production doesnt leave you in charge of the product? Think about it in real labor terms.

and you do sell the league. What happened to the nba when MJ retired? did it die with him? Of course not, because the majority of fans (and this has changed some, but its still true) are fans of a team first. The league is clearly the product.

Also, euro teams are limited to something like 2 US players. so.......

[StroShow4]

Guy has a thousand sponsors already. He doesn't give a shit about $ anymore.

LeBron doesn't care about $ anymore? Isn't this the guy who's desire was to become a billionaire? Pretty sure he isn't there quite yet... so I think he's still got money on his mind.

If I had a nickel for every stupid comment you've made in this thread I'd be as rich as some of these owners we're talking about.

[ZenMaster]

Um, because there is a lockout right now.



Wrong.



You must be new so I'll give you a pass. The "league" is what facilitates the prouct, not the other way around. You can't "sell" the league.

And not worth much to whom? Good thing basketball isn't exclusive to the States.



Guy has a thousand sponsors already. He doesn't give a shit about $ anymore. He's already a world renown star: you can bet your ass people are going to tune into the Euroleague if he starts playing there.

And we're not talking about "one guy" going to play in Europe. Hundreds of players (and stars) could move. The powerhouse NBA would be left with nothing if they had no stars.



What, and the players don't have another way out? Average NBA players can find work in any country that has a professional basketball team/league.

The last CBA wasn't that great, sure. Owners are right to be asking for concessions. 53% was calculated as the required decrease to sufficiently compensate for all the money lost. And the players were willing to accept that, hell they're even going to 51%.

So please tell me who the real assholes are, because I'm having a hard time with Jordan getting mad at the players for not taking a shit offer.


Considering NBA players want a lot of money, please present a list of euro teams that could take on hundreds of NBA players.

[Rekindled]

seriously you guys don't see what they just did? They are willing to accept a lower BRI split to address the system issues. Basically they are not greedy bastards like the owners and care about more important things to them, like freedom to chose where they play, more than money. You guys are just emotional because more games will be cancelled. Player movement is GOOD for the league. They want to meet with the owners to address the system issues. I don't think it's an unreasonable request to make before this "deadline". The ball is in the owners court, if they concede on some system issues we have a deal.

non of the things players want is good for the league.

[boozehound]

Also, the players will be missing checks on starting on the 16th, correct? With every missed check they will become more desperate to have an NBA. The owners aren't stupid, they understand this... so they know the ball is in their court. The longer the players wait, the more money they will lose on their way to a worse deal than the one on the table as of right now. So, they'll be losing money they could've been making this season in order to fight a losing battle that will lead to lower earnings in the future. Real smart. :oldlol:
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32334/the-player-salaries-lost-to-a-lockout


If this week’s negotiating sessions represented the 11th hour of the labor dispute, then we’re quickly approaching the 59th minute. The league has made it clear that if a deal is not in place by Monday, regular season games will be cancelled. Fans of Derek Fisher might even point out that we’re quickly approaching the point where just four tenths of a second remain.

The two sides left the negotiating room Tuesday about three percentage points apart on the biggest issue. The split of basketball related income (BRI) is the elephant in the room. It’s the key to the entire process -- come to an agreeable number on the BRI split, and everything else will fall into place.

The rhetoric following the negotiating sessions made it difficult to pin the two sides to an exact number, but it essentially boils down to the owners offering 50 percent, with the players drawing a line in the sand at 53 percent.

Three percent. It’s the difference between an opening tipoff and an empty arena.

For both sides, the negotiating process boils down to a simple question -- should we accept the offer on the table, or can we do better if we say “no” and wait?

For the players, the cost of saying “no” can be easily quantified. The owners have offered the players 50 percent of BRI. This season’s BRI is expected to be around $4 billion, so the owners are offering the players a $2 billion slice of the pie. The players are holding out for a 53 percent share, so they’re looking for $2.12 billion.

That’s $120 million that separates them. Of course, that’s just in year one. Over the course of a six-year agreement, assuming four percent growth per year, the total is closer to $796 million.

To say “no” and wait means to suffer the consequences. Those consequences very soon will be cancelled games, meaning revenue will be lost that will never be recouped. The players will be faced with choosing between a 50 percent share of a larger pie, and a 53 percent share of a smaller pie. The longer they hold out, the more the pie will shrink.

If we use the 1998-99 lockout as a guide, a canceled game costs each player 1/82nd of his salary. A full NBA regular season lasts 170 days, so each missed week represents 7/170th of a player’s income. So if a week’s worth of games is cancelled because they say “no” to the owners’ 50 percent offer, the players miss out on $82.4 million.

The players are holding out for an additional $120 million in 2011-12, but holding out costs them $82.4 million per week. They would lose everything they stand to gain this season in less than two weeks. On Monday the league is expected to announce the cancellation of the first two weeks of the season, which will cost the players $164.8 million.

Over a six year agreement, the players would burn through the $796 million in a little under 10 weeks. If they continue to hold out for 53 percent, and the owners hold firm at 50 percent, the players will reach the break-even point around December 16th. If the sides settle for 53 percent past that date, then the players would have been better off by taking the owners’ offer of 50 percent before games were cancelled.

Keep in mind that December 16th represents the point at which the players as a whole will break-even. Each individual player would need to stay in the league for six years to recoup his lost wages. In a league where the average career lasts fewer than five years, that’s going to be a problem.

This is one reason the owners have an advantage in this labor dispute -- they have a longer window of time to recoup their losses. An average player is likely to be out of the league in a few years, but an owner can hang on to his team for decades.

The players and owners need to find a way to bridge the gap. They are close enough now that a creative solution -- such as a system where players are guaranteed to make no less than 51 percent and owners are guaranteed to pay no more than 52 percent -- can save an 82-game campaign.

For players, holding out for a better deal simply doesn’t make sense.

[Burgz]

So basically.....they should cave even though it's a bad deal and the deal may continue to get worse from here on? Stern is a puppet. I guess it comes down to if you really think his wednesday deadline and threat is real or not.

so what if it is a bad deal? it's a collective bargaining agreement, whether it benefits one side or not is not the matter

it's business and the players out of their league right now. they are cornered.

as a fan would you rather players get more money or see basketball in 2012? protecting these players does nothing for you personally so i dont know why you do it? both sides are being selfish if you ask me

is stern a puppet? yes

but he sure is a smart (albeit conniving) businessman

[boozehound]

seriously you guys don't see what they just did? They are willing to accept a lower BRI split to address the system issues. Basically they are not greedy bastards like the owners and care about more important things to them, like freedom to chose where they play, more than money. You guys are just emotional because more games will be cancelled. Player movement is GOOD for the league. They want to meet with the owners to address the system issues. I don't think it's an unreasonable request to make before this "deadline". The ball is in the owners court, if they concede on some system issues we have a deal.
they arent trying to fix the system for the betterment of retirees (though there has been some recent lip service) or any shit like that. Its about protecting their salaries (guaranteed contracts, mid level, etc). Its not about streamlining the salary structure to make the league more popular or profitable. its about player revenue.

[Yung D-Will]

Stern to be on NBA TV at 7 p.m. ET. In response to question from @daldridgetnt, Stern said he always takes Hunter's calls out of respect.

[StroShow4]

The last line of the article sums it all up.

[QUOTE]For players, holding out for a better deal simply doesn

[thejumpa]

so what if it is a bad deal? it's a collective bargaining agreement, whether it benefits one side or not is not the matter

it's business and the players out of their league right now. they are cornered.

as a fan would you rather players get more money or see basketball in 2012? protecting these players does nothing for you personally so i dont know why you do it? both sides are being selfish if you ask me

is stern a puppet? yes

but he sure is a smart (albeit conniving) businessman

As a fan, I'd rather miss the season and have them get a better deal. Of course I would rather see basketball played but not if it means a monkey deal for the younger generations of players. These guys are grown ass men with serious concerns about the system and/or BRI split. They are the product and in my opinion deserve a fair deal. Simple as that. And so what if it does nothing for me personally. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it...not sure how I'm protecting anyone.

Stern is a good businessman...that's obvious. Your point?

[boozehound]

As a fan, I'd rather miss the season and have them get a better deal. Of course I would rather see basketball played but not if it means a monkey deal for the younger generations of players. These guys are grown ass men with serious concerns about the system and/or BRI split. They are the product and in my opinion deserve a fair deal. Simple as that. And so what if it does nothing for me personally. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it...not sure how I'm protecting anyone.

Stern is a good businessman...that's obvious. Your point?
how is a freaking CBA with the highest salaries in pro sports (even under the new system), guaranteed contracts (only in the nba) unfair to the players? Its not as good as the last cba, too ****ing bad. the economy is through the floor, the US poverty rate is over 16% and even UAW had to concede guaranteed benefits for their pensioners to help GM remain afloat. That how labor negotiations go.

[StroShow4]

As a fan, I'd rather miss the season and have them get a better deal.

Missing a season is only going to get them a worse deal, though... potentially much worse.

[Burgz]

As a fan, I'd rather miss the season and have them get a better deal. Of course I would rather see basketball played but not if it means a monkey deal for the younger generations of players. These guys are grown ass men with serious concerns about the system and/or BRI split. They are the product and in my opinion deserve a fair deal. Simple as that. And so what if it does nothing for me personally. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it...not sure how I'm protecting anyone.

Stern is a good businessman...that's obvious. Your point?

if you read my post you would have seen that because he backed the players into a corner that makes him a good businessman.

unfortunately you didn't

and i never said you couldnt state your opinion

this is a forum. that is what you are supposed to do. don't get all butthurt if someone doesn't agree with you :rolleyes:

[ZeN]

http://i.imgur.com/fVUVs.png
:oldlol:

[bdreason]

I don't think it's going to happen. What a failure on both parts if we lose a season in this economy. The NBA won't recover for a decade. It took them years to recover from the last lockout, in a booming economy. In this economy? People will hold grudges for a long time.

[Rab]

how is a freaking CBA with the highest salaries in pro sports (even under the new system), guaranteed contracts (only in the nba) unfair to the players? Its not as good as the last cba, too ****ing bad. the economy is through the floor, the US poverty rate is over 16% and even UAW had to concede guaranteed benefits for their pensioners to help GM remain afloat. That how labor negotiations go.
Spot on, and a great point about UAW. How people are not seeing this is beyond me.

[Fiasco]

wow, you are delusional. So, owning the means of production doesnt leave you in charge of the product? Think about it in real labor terms.

Here, really simple for you:

Big Macs. People come to McDonalds (NBA) for Big Macs (games played). What goes in the Big Mac (players) is not OWNED by McDonalds. McDonalds purchases the ingredients (player) independently from the franchise. You can't be in charge of something you don't already possess as part of your business.


and you do sell the league. What happened to the nba when MJ retired? did it die with him? Of course not, because the majority of fans (and this has changed some, but its still true) are fans of a team first. The league is clearly the product.

Jordan was one man. If there is no resolution to this lockout, nobody can come back. This is more than just one superstar leaving, it's the entire product being shipped out. That is what's at stake here.


Also, euro teams are limited to something like 2 US players. so.......

So let them go to Asia. Whole world out there.

[DFish]

As a fan, I'd rather miss the season and have them get a better deal. Of course I would rather see basketball played but not if it means a monkey deal for the younger generations of players. These guys are grown ass men with serious concerns about the system and/or BRI split. They are the product and in my opinion deserve a fair deal. Simple as that. And so what if it does nothing for me personally. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it...not sure how I'm protecting anyone.

Stern is a good businessman...that's obvious. Your point?

Poor, poor players. Sounds rough.

[Fiasco]

LeBron doesn't care about $ anymore? Isn't this the guy who's desire was to become a billionaire? Pretty sure he isn't there quite yet... so I think he's still got money on his mind.

He also wanted to bring Cleveland a title. Pretty sure he's not there yet... still got it on his mind, perhaps?


If I had a nickel for every stupid comment you've made in this thread I'd be as rich as some of these owners we're talking about.

No, you'd still be broke.

[Fiasco]

I think someone tried to neg me and gave me rep instead.

[nathanjizzle]

u ugys have to remember...this isnt a deal for 1 season, its gonna be the deal for the next 10 seasons and possibly more. There not gonna take less just because for one season, they need to make sure they secure the right terms for the future for all players.

[DFish]

He also wanted to bring Cleveland a title. Pretty sure he's not there yet... still got it on his mind, perhaps?

Are you implying that there are negro basketball players who don't desire more money?

[PleezeBelieve]

Here, really simple for you:

Big Macs. People come to McDonalds (NBA) for Big Macs (games played). What goes in the Big Mac (players) is not OWNED by McDonalds. McDonalds purchases the ingredients (player) independently from the franchise. You can't be in charge of something you don't already possess as part of your business.



Jordan was one man. If there is no resolution to this lockout, nobody can come back. This is more than just one superstar leaving, it's the entire product being shipped out. That is what's at stake here.



So let them go to Asia. Whole world out there.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Fiasco]

Are you implying that there are negro basketball players who don't desire more money?

Now you're just being racist.

[DFish]

Now you're just being racist.

I'm being a realist. Maybe I should've used "black" instead of negro though.

[chips93]

so college ball it is.

cant wait for tar heels spartans friday night.

[raptorfan_dr07]

The owners don't depend on the NBA for their income.

Which is precisely the reason why those greedy pigs have NO right to complain about "losses". Besides, there's no rule that says a business HAS to make a profit.

To quote the "great" Michael Jordan, "if you can't make a profit then sell the team". I have no sympathy for these pigs who make terrible decision after terrible decision, wasting money like it's nothing, then look to the players to bail them out for their stupidity. Words cannot express how furious I am at the owners and David Stern. It's exactly what's f*cked up this country, bailout after bailout to the rich and wealthy.

I am not saying that players are not overpaid, they are, but in comparison to the owners, the players wealth is much smaller. There is NOTHING that can make me feel even an ounce of sympathy for the owners, NOTHING. Not that I feel any sympathy for the players, because I really don't, but I can understand their position much much better than the owners. I understand what they're fighting for, albeit being stubborn about it. The owners aren't fighting for sh*t except to make their own wallets fatter. The players have conceded a sh*t load of percentage points on the BRI. Millions of dollars in give backs that they used to get.

I am a very passionate basketball fan, and as a fan, yes I want the lockout to end and to start the season. But, I don't want the players taking a bad deal just for the sake of taking a deal. The majority of the players seem to feel that way as well. This isn't about one season, this about the future. If that means losing the entire season, then so be it.

[chips93]

u ugys have to remember...this isnt a deal for 1 season, its gonna be the deal for the next 10 seasons and possibly more. There not gonna take less just because for one season, they need to make sure they secure the right terms for the future for all players.


the revenue that they will lose by missing a big chunk of the season equates to a lot more than the gap in bri that they are haggling over

every week of the season that is missed, the players lose 82.4 million. the gap in bri equates to about 120 million. (that gap being between the 53% the players want, and the 50% that the owners are offering)
[QUOTE]
If we use the 1998-99 lockout as a guide, a canceled game costs each player 1/82nd of his salary. A full NBA regular season lasts 170 days, so each missed week represents 7/170th of a player

[RRR3]

the revenue that they will lose by missing a big chunk of the season equates to a lot more than the gap in bri that they are haggling over

every week of the season that is missed, the players lose 82.4 million. the gap in bri equates to about 120 million. (that gap being between the 53% the players want, and the 50% that the owners are offering)


larry coon wrote a great piece on this topic that i have quoted above; http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32334/the-player-salaries-lost-to-a-lockout

also, ego on hunter's part is a big factor now
Yes, let's blame Hunter 100% (not being sarcastic at all btw)! It'll make us feel better about the players lol. hehehehehehehe *Mr. Burns voice* excellent.

[DMAVS41]

u ugys have to remember...this isnt a deal for 1 season, its gonna be the deal for the next 10 seasons and possibly more. There not gonna take less just because for one season, they need to make sure they secure the right terms for the future for all players.

this is overblown. last i heard, they players will have an opt out clause after 7 years.

also...the future climate of the next cba will dictate far more than the agreed upon terms 7 years in the past.

just look at this cba...the players have come way down from the last agreement. why? because it makes sense given the current climate and state of the league.

if the league is booming in 7 years, the negotiations will start in a very different place.

people (players) are making way too much of this. the current negotiations don't have nearly as big of an impact on the next cba as they would like you to believe.

[Kblaze8855]

Was it "fair" that NBA players had the highest salaries of all American sports the last decade even though the NFL and MLB were far more profitable?


Of course its fair. There are 12 people on an NBA team and up to 3 inactive. 53 on an NFL roster and half of them get injured every year so they end up paying 60-70. NHL teams are 23 active but more than that total. MLB 25-40?

The revenue difference between the league isnt as big as the difference in people to pay. Break up 4 billion over 400 people each gets more than breaking up 5 over 1800....

[Hater]

Which is precisely the reason why those greedy pigs have NO right to complain about "losses". Besides, there's no rule that says a business HAS to make a profit.

LOL. How old are some people here? You're either 12 years old or a high school dropout. I can't imagine a scenario where anyone thinks what you said made sense. Here is the 2nd definition of "business" from dictionary.com.


the purchase and sale of goods in an attempt to make a profit

By definition, the goal of every business is to turn a profit. How ****ing stupid are you?

I can't even understand (maybe you don't either) what you mean by "rule". There's no rule that an NBA should exist at all. I don't know what you mean by "rule". Some people think this is some type of game where it's players vs. owners. That is the nature of the arrangement. It's equally as silly for me to tell you that there's no "rule" that the players should get paid more than minimum wage.

[StroShow4]

No, you'd still be broke.

I'm far from broke.



But, I don't want the players taking a bad deal just for the sake of taking a deal. The majority of the players seem to feel that way as well. This isn't about one season, this about the future. If that means losing the entire season, then so be it.

They won't be taking a bad deal for the sake of taking a deal. They will be taking the deal because they WILL NOT get a better one. Losing an entire season only gives the owners an even bigger advantage than they already have in these negotiations.

Not sure why some people can't get this.

[kurple]

I guess this is the perfect time to get into football.. Any upcoming games you recommend?

[Hater]

As a fan, I'd rather miss the season and have them get a better deal. Of course I would rather see basketball played but not if it means a monkey deal for the younger generations of players. These guys are grown ass men with serious concerns about the system and/or BRI split. They are the product and in my opinion deserve a fair deal. Simple as that. And so what if it does nothing for me personally. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it...not sure how I'm protecting anyone.

Stern is a good businessman...that's obvious. Your point?
The question really is...what's your motivation for taking that position? Obviously, you're not just a fan because if you were, you'd want to see basketball by any means necessary. Why do you care how much the players make? If they made $100 a day or $1000000000000 a day, how does it really affect you? I just care if there's basketball played or not.

[G-train]

I guess this is the perfect time to get into football.. Any upcoming games you recommend?

I'm Australian and even I'm thinking of following american football.

[ConanRulesNBC]

The question really is...what's your motivation for taking that position? Obviously, you're not just a fan because if you were, you'd want to see basketball by any means necessary. Why do you care how much the players make? If they made $100 a day or $1000000000000 a day, how does it really affect you? I just care if there's basketball played or not.

:applause:

Exactly.

[Fiasco]

I'm far from broke.

That's more than Latrell Sprewell can say for himself, so I'll give you props.

[RRR3]

That's more than Latrell Sprewell can say for himself, so I'll give you props.
He can't feed his family :lol

[Kblaze8855]

Im thinking that nba player broke is like when trump was "broke". I mean.....how broke can a real star get? Pippen is supposed to be broke. But just being scottie pippen will earn you something right? How hard could it be to get a quick appearance check?

[kurple]

I'm Australian and even I'm thinking of following american football.
Not a fan of the 1 game a week setup, too much waiting.. but it's better than nothing i guess

[Sarcastic]

What a black eye for David Stern.
Worst commissioner ever.

[bdreason]

Im thinking that nba player broke is like when trump was "broke". I mean.....how broke can a real star get? Pippen is supposed to be broke. But just being scottie pippen will earn you something right? How hard could it be to get a quick appearance check?


Being "broke" these days doesn't involve just having no money. Most people who are "broke" have massive debts hanging over their heads, and many lack the ability to even cover the interest incurred from their debt on a monthly basis.

[DMAVS41]

Im thinking that nba player broke is like when trump was "broke". I mean.....how broke can a real star get? Pippen is supposed to be broke. But just being scottie pippen will earn you something right? How hard could it be to get a quick appearance check?

Its usually about debt. Of course these stars like "Pippen" could earn well over 100k a year....but that doesn't mean much when they are millions in debt and people are coming after them for every penny.

But what you say is true....at least for star players. They will always have some source of income for being who they were/are. But other less famous players don't have that. They are just screwed...its really sad.

[PleezeBelieve]

Its usually about debt. Of course these stars like "Pippen" could earn well over 100k a year....but that doesn't mean much when they are millions in debt and people are coming after them for every penny.

But what you say is true....at least for star players. They will always have some source of income for being who they were/are. But other less famous players don't have that. They are just screwed...its really sad.
Bro, you're good poster. But you got more posts in a year than I do ever.

7000+ posts in 365 days???

Compare that to me when you consider I'm a world famous personality in addition to modern day internet sensation with less than 6000 posts in my career.

What's wrong with this picture??

[chips93]

Yes, let's blame Hunter 100% (not being sarcastic at all btw)! It'll make us feel better about the players lol. hehehehehehehe *Mr. Burns voice* excellent.

there is no way the players are going to get a better deal, he should have taken a deal long ago, not missed games. he should cut his loses, but he hasnt, out of stubbornness and egotism.

[talk at ya]

Honestly I'm still optimistic that we will get a deal soon. I think if a bunch of us on this message board can realize that the players have little leverage, they realize it just as well. They turned down the deal a day early hoping to get some concessions on system issues. Idk if that'll happen, but I understand their position. They definitely need to stop being little b*tches about the BRI split, and they clearly are seeing as they are willing to accept the 50-50 split. But people calling them greedy or w/e-all they want is a little freedom to choose where they want to work. They'll talk to the owners, see if they'll make any more concessions, and hopefully decide on something soon. I feel like if they want system concessions though, they players are going to have to take an even lower BRI. I'm not going to call them stupid for not taking this deal, but if they can't get the owners to concede on anything within the next 24 hours but still continue to doddle, they are just going to make everything worse for themselves.

[sixer6ad]

This makes it official. Any Heat title that could have happened this year would now contain an asterisk. Does anything else really matter?

[Fatal9]

If this doesn't go through tomorrow, I want Stern/owners to be ruthless with these delusional fukkers. Have fun not ending the lockout, missing an entire seasons worth of salary (much more than the money you would lose over the current issues) and ending up with a worse offer.

[Blue&Orange]

LOL. How old are some people here? You're either 12 years old or a high school dropout. I can't imagine a scenario where anyone thinks what you said made sense. Here is the 2nd definition of "business" from dictionary.com.



By definition, the goal of every business is to turn a profit. How ****ing stupid are you?

I can't even understand (maybe you don't either) what you mean by "rule". There's no rule that an NBA should exist at all. I don't know what you mean by "rule". Some people think this is some type of game where it's players vs. owners. That is the nature of the arrangement. It's equally as silly for me to tell you that there's no "rule" that the players should get paid more than minimum wage.
repped

This hobby nonsense go to stop. Owning a NBA club isn't a hobby,


"We have a team, we're building the arena, we've hired professional management, we have the option to buy into another large project, the building of an office center. For me, this is a project with explosive profit potential. The capitalization of the team will be $700 million after we move to Brooklyn. It will earn approximately 30 [million]. And the arena will be worth around $1 billion."
Mikhail Prokhorov. Mind the explosive profit potential.

I know there's ZERO chance of happening, but since they don't want to entertain in the arena, the players going for a players league and Sprewel themselfs into oblivion would be funny.

[Fatal9]

"lets sit down, have more negotiations, we're open to figure this out" - billy hunter

why? so you can storm out like a b!tch again? :facepalm

[ConanRulesNBC]

Its usually about debt. Of course these stars like "Pippen" could earn well over 100k a year....but that doesn't mean much when they are millions in debt and people are coming after them for every penny.

But what you say is true....at least for star players. They will always have some source of income for being who they were/are. But other less famous players don't have that. They are just screwed...its really sad.

I don't feel bad for any current NBA player who goes broke. Even scrubs get paid millions. If they go broke it's because they're idiots who can't manage their money. I don't feel sorry for them at all.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Bro, you're good poster. But you got more posts in a year than I do ever.

7000+ posts in 365 days???

Compare that to me when you consider I'm a world famous personality in addition to modern day internet sensation with less than 6000 posts in my career.

What's wrong with this picture??

:wtf:

[dbugz]

Owners teach these brat players a lesson. Give them 47/53 deal in return.

I can't wait for some dramas from these players tweeting on twitter :oldlol: :oldlol:

[MMM]

Some of you guys need to be more even keeled because it is odd seeing people get so excited about meeting taking place yet these same people are the ones saying the season is toast now. I know it is not easy to do but some of you guys need to get a better check on your emotions.

[chips93]

its still weird that people are talking about right and wrong, and what players/owners 'deserve' etc., this shouldnt be an emotional thing, neogtiating. both sides are just looking out for themselves, getting the best that they can. what they 'deserve' is close to meaningless.

[Fiasco]

its still weird that people are talking about right and wrong, and what players/owners 'deserve' etc., this shouldnt be an emotional thing, neogtiating. both sides are just looking out for themselves, getting the best that they can. what they 'deserve' is close to meaningless.

+1

[longtime lurker]

its still weird that people are talking about right and wrong, and what players/owners 'deserve' etc., this shouldnt be an emotional thing, neogtiating. both sides are just looking out for themselves, getting the best that they can. what they 'deserve' is close to meaningless.

Please there's no place for sense on a message board.

[Jasper]

"lets sit down, have more negotiations, we're open to figure this out" - billy hunter

why? so you can storm out like a b!tch again? :facepalm
the more I see Hunter and Fisher talk , the more I start thinking their minds are lost... .

6 + months ago Hunter could of had a plan , worked a deal , and maybe locked into 52% or better BRI and cap space etc...

Right now viewing these last actions by Hunter and the player association , I think the owners will see a decertification and the season is gone.

The players seem to have a secret negoiations tactic ... WHICH IS NONE.

They have ZERO , ZERO leverage from what I see.

Next year I would not doubt Billy Hunter will not be involved in the NBA.

[Burgz]

its still weird that people are talking about right and wrong, and what players/owners 'deserve' etc., this shouldnt be an emotional thing, neogtiating. both sides are just looking out for themselves, getting the best that they can. what they 'deserve' is close to meaningless.

this.

[longtime lurker]

the more I see Hunter and Fisher talk , the more I start thinking their minds are lost... .

6 + months ago Hunter could of had a plan , worked a deal , and maybe locked into 52% or better BRI and cap space etc...

Right now viewing these last actions by Hunter and the player association , I think the owners will see a decertification and the season is gone.

The players seem to have a secret negoiations tactic ... WHICH IS NONE.

They have ZERO , ZERO leverage from what I see.

Next year I would not doubt Billy Hunter will not be involved in the NBA.

Hunter and Fisher were screwed from the beginning. There was no plan that they could have created because no matter what they agreed on the owners would squeeze them for more. They need to get better PR because the NBA has everyone convinced that the players are the bad guys in the deal, yet they're the ones giving up money :confusedshrug:

[Hater]

Hunter and Fisher were screwed from the beginning. There was no plan that they could have created because no matter what they agreed on the owners would squeeze them for more. They need to get better PR because the NBA has everyone convinced that the players are the bad guys in the deal, yet they're the ones giving up money :confusedshrug:
There is no good/bad. If the players could ask for a 99/1 split in their favor they would. Their concessions have nothing to do with good or bad. The goal of either side is to take as much as they can get away with. If anything, one could argue that the owners have been the most generous because if we look at this from a leverage point of view, what would the players really do if the owners took a hardline stance at 70/30?

[Jasper]

The consenus around the media was that if hunter was ahead of the game before the playoff's started and the day after the championship - he would of had a viable plan to give to the league and get something done...

now of course the league (owners) could of looked at it , and said if they are bending over that much let the squeeze begin...

But even though we all know as die hard fans that the league can survive with all this public crap - alot of less die hard fans see this as a vicious spitting war , which in their eye's means rejection.

Even the owners had to weigh these odd's at potentially lossing these fans and the consquences.

[coin24]

There is no good/bad. If the players could ask for a 99/1 split in their favor they would. Their concessions have nothing to do with good or bad. The goal of either side is to take as much as they can get away with. If anything, one could argue that the owners have been the most generous because if we look at this from a leverage point of view, what would the players really do if the owners took a hardline stance at 70/30?


THIS:applause:

Why do people not understand that the players are not entitled to anything? Fair means nothing, this is business. They were offered a decent deal and should have taken it.

Its looking like there wont be a season unfortunately and for what?? What the hell is the union holding out for?????:confusedshrug: :banghead:

[DDensity]

There is no good/bad. If the players could ask for a 99/1 split in their favor they would. Their concessions have nothing to do with good or bad. The goal of either side is to take as much as they can get away with. If anything, one could argue that the owners have been the most generous because if we look at this from a leverage point of view, what would the players really do if the owners took a hardline stance at 70/30?

Pretty much. The fact of the matter is simple, the players have been overpaid for years. This isn't a subjective point of view. Value of anything is determined by what people are willing to pay. This holds true for products, as well as the jobs any of are paid to do on a day to day basis.

Consider this, if not for the NBA, who would be paying these guys anywhere close to what they have been making? In other words, who is the next highest bidder, so to speak? We've been getting the answer to that over the summer and it just confirms all of this. Even Kobe Bryant, one of the best players in the league with worldwide appeal, could not get anyone to pay him his asking price of $1 mil/month. Mind you, he makes even more than that in the NBA.

Point is that the second highest bidders aren't even offering half of what these guys are making currently, which inherently makes them overpaid. Realistically, if all 450 players were to suddenly become available to the worldwide market, even the overseas salaries of those who did manage to get deals would have been drastically reduced due to over saturation.

The players have absolutely zero leverage. If the owners decided to hold firm at 40%, or even lower, they'd ultimately end up having to take the deal for one simple reason: no one else can match their pay even with that substantial a reduction. Until there's a market other than the NBA who can consistently offer anywhere near what is being paid out, the players will never have any leverage.

[longtime lurker]

There is no good/bad. If the players could ask for a 99/1 split in their favor they would. Their concessions have nothing to do with good or bad. The goal of either side is to take as much as they can get away with. If anything, one could argue that the owners have been the most generous because if we look at this from a leverage point of view, what would the players really do if the owners took a hardline stance at 70/30?

I know there's no good or bad but you wouldn't be able to tell it from this message board or the media. Concessions don't equal good guys or bad guys but if both parties interests are to actually play basketball then the concessions should be coming from both sides. But so far everything has been one sided. Well the reason the owners haven't taken a stance of 70/30 is because the players would have given them a huge FU and decertified a long time ago. Really the players could have asked for a 70/30 split and offered the owners a hard cap and said there we made "concessions" but in reality they've conceded nothing.

[Scoooter]

I'm surprised at all the vehement pro-owner/anti-player sentiments around here.

[thejumpa]

Missing a season is only going to get them a worse deal, though... potentially much worse.

Well, you could be right. It's a huge risk to take but like I said.....it depends on how serious you take Sterns threats. Will the owners really switch to a 47/53 split w/ a hard cap after Wednesday (which they KNOW players won't agree to), or will they simmer down and get back to negotiating in a traditional business sense aka not throwing out "take it or leave it" offers with strict repercussions if the deal is not agreed upon.

Hmmmm sounds just like '99.....

[thejumpa]

The question really is...what's your motivation for taking that position? Obviously, you're not just a fan because if you were, you'd want to see basketball by any means necessary. Why do you care how much the players make? If they made $100 a day or $1000000000000 a day, how does it really affect you? I just care if there's basketball played or not.

So.....I'm not a fan because I like analyzing the lockout situation and hope that both parties get a fair deal? What, am I supposed to go around bashing the players simply because I want to be entertained and don't really give two shits about their financial situation? Give me a break....

[DirtySanchez]

Stern should just cancel the season now.
F*ck a half season like 99.

They don't want to deal they don't want to deal.

They will crawl back in 2013.

[OmniStrife]

its still weird that people are talking about right and wrong, and what players/owners 'deserve' etc., this shouldnt be an emotional thing, neogtiating. both sides are just looking out for themselves, getting the best that they can. what they 'deserve' is close to meaningless.


chips93 used COMMON SENSE.

It's not very effective...

ISH is confused!

It hurt itself in its confusion.

[RRR3]

chips93 used COMMON SENSE.

It's not very effective...

ISH is confused!

It hurt itself in its confusion.
LOL Pokemon!

[Yung D-Will]

So.....I'm not a fan because I like analyzing the lockout situation and hope that both parties get a fair deal? What, am I supposed to go around bashing the players simply because I want to be entertained and don't really give two shits about their financial situation? Give me a break....
Their financial situation? You mean the situation in which they're making in 1 year more than you'll make in your whole life.

Really you care about that?

:eek:

[Sarcastic]

Pretty much. The fact of the matter is simple, the players have been overpaid for years. This isn't a subjective point of view. Value of anything is determined by what people are willing to pay. This holds true for products, as well as the jobs any of are paid to do on a day to day basis.

Consider this, if not for the NBA, who would be paying these guys anywhere close to what they have been making? In other words, who is the next highest bidder, so to speak? We've been getting the answer to that over the summer and it just confirms all of this. Even Kobe Bryant, one of the best players in the league with worldwide appeal, could not get anyone to pay him his asking price of $1 mil/month. Mind you, he makes even more than that in the NBA.

Point is that the second highest bidders aren't even offering half of what these guys are making currently, which inherently makes them overpaid. Realistically, if all 450 players were to suddenly become available to the worldwide market, even the overseas salaries of those who did manage to get deals would have been drastically reduced due to over saturation.

The players have absolutely zero leverage. If the owners decided to hold firm at 40%, or even lower, they'd ultimately end up having to take the deal for one simple reason: no one else can match their pay even with that substantial a reduction. Until there's a market other than the NBA who can consistently offer anywhere near what is being paid out, the players will never have any leverage.


So much fail here.

The players are paid relative to what they produce. The reason that the secondary market (Europe) for their talents won't pay them as much as their primary market (NBA), is that the secondary market doesn't produce nearly as much revenue as the primary market. Should all the NBA players go to Europe, you would start seeing that market producing revenues similar what the American market produces, and the players would get paid based on the new revenues in Europe.

We can't determine that players are overpaid, because the NBA labor market is so warped by the amount of caps on it. Lebron James on an open market would command 3 to 4 times the amount that he is currently making, so we can just as easily say he is underpaid.

[Clutch]

So much fail here.

The players are paid relative to what they produce. The reason that the secondary market (Europe) for their talents won't pay them as much as their primary market (NBA), is that the secondary market doesn't produce nearly as much revenue as the primary market. Should all the NBA players go to Europe, you would start seeing that market producing revenues similar what the American market produces, and the players would get paid based on the new revenues in Europe.

We can't determine that players are overpaid, because the NBA labor market is so warped by the amount of caps on it. Lebron James on an open market would command 3 to 4 times the amount that he is currently making, so we can just as easily say he is underpaid.
You are wrong.
Basketball is less popular in Europe than in the USA.
Football (soccer) is the primary sport in almost every country.
NBA stars would make European basketball better and more interesting but things wouldn't be much different in terms of revenue.
Trust me,I'm from Europe and I know what I'm talking about.
Sure,revenues would be higher but not enough.

[Sarcastic]

You are wrong.
Basketball is less popular in Europe than in the USA.
Football (soccer) is the primary sport in almost every country.
NBA stars would make European basketball better and more interesting but things wouldn't be much different in terms of revenue.
Trust me,I'm from Europe and I know what I'm talking about.
Sure,revenues would be higher but not enough.

The NBA is not the number 1 sport in the US either. It may not even be the number 2, as baseball has a long romantic history and has a firm grasp on the summer sports market. Despite that, it still produces over $4 billion a year. Initially it would not make as much in Europe, but to say that it could never come close is underselling the product by a long shot.

[Clutch]

The NBA is not the number 1 sport in the US either. It may not even be the number 2, as baseball has a long romantic history and has a firm grasp on the summer sports market. Despite that, it still produces over $4 billion a year. Initially it would not make as much in Europe, but to say that it could never come close is underselling the product by a long shot.
There isn't as nearly as much interest for basketball in Europe.
But let's say that doesn't matter,there are many more problems.
a)Capacity of arenas is much smaller than in the NBA,especially for weaker clubs
b)Level of competition isn't like in the NBA.Let's say arenas would be full for every Euroleague game but strong teams wouldn't have any competition in domestic leagues which means bad attendance
c)Number of games played in Euroleague is much lower than in the NBA.I've already explained why I don't think there will be much attendance in domestic leagues.
d)Interest from TV networks is much,much,much worse.If you could get a half of a TV deal NBA gets it would be a huge success.

There are even more things but that came to my mind first.

[ZenMaster]

The NBA is not the number 1 sport in the US either. It may not even be the number 2, as baseball has a long romantic history and has a firm grasp on the summer sports market. Despite that, it still produces over $4 billion a year. Initially it would not make as much in Europe, but to say that it could never come close is underselling the product by a long shot.

I don't believe it's possible in any near future. If you play a game here at 7pm it's 1am in China and 1pm on the east coast, so impractical.

And even if you could get revenues up it would take so much time most of these players would be out of the leagues by then.

[lilbill]

I'm surprised at all the vehement pro-owner/anti-player sentiments around here.

It's because even though the owners might be greedy bastards, the changes they want to make will make the league better. The players side of things is filtered through their agents, who are an even greedier bunch of bastards.

[Joey Zaza]

It's because even though the owners might be greedy bastards, the changes they want to make will make the league better.

I'm generally a pro-owner guy but I completely disagree wit this. Changes in how mid-levels get handed out and above-cap teams sign players ay impact each team, but the game will be the same

[Blue&Orange]

You must be new so I'll give you a pass. The "league" is what facilitates the prouct, not the other way around. You can't "sell" the league.

:facepalm Your condescending tone makes the fact that you're completely ignorant to reality more funnier. Newsflash, apart from the Kobe stans and Lebrons stans, that are morons and a minority, the large, large majority are fans of the teams, period. Do you think Jack Nicholson will stop watching Lakers games if Kobe goes to europe?



And we're not talking about "one guy" going to play in Europe. Hundreds of players (and stars) could move. The powerhouse NBA would be left with nothing if they had no stars.

Hundreds of players could move? Why don't you educate ourself on the subject, and stop making an arse of yourself.



What, and the players don't have another way out? Average NBA players can find work in any country that has a professional basketball team/league.

That makes so much sense, going to another country get paid 1\10 of what they would get in the current owners offer. Loads of sense.
:facepalm

[Phenith]

I'm confused on the de-certification thing. If they de-certify... doesn't that mean there is no NBAPA now and the league can just start up with whatever players want to sign and play (assuming the NBA voids all old contract which I think they have the right to do in this case)?
Isn't the CBA between the NBA and the NBAPA just operating rules for the partnership between the NBA and NBAPA? With no NBAPA, the NBA would/should be free to operate in any manner they want since their partner basically dissolved no?

The only thing holding this back is the large amount of players that will be loyal to each other and refuse to go to the NBA without a union in place. But really, with a mix of players that "need the money", didn't want to de-certify in the first place, younger players and d-league "stars" (some who are good enough to be regular NBA players anyway), the league could easily start up without having to agree with union demands.

If i'm wrong, i'm wrong, but that could be a huge FU to the players if the league goes on without a large number of them, sure it won't be as popular, but what are true basketball fans going to do, watch WNBA?? Fans wouldn't be happy not having a lot of players they want to see, but they will get over it if they don't come back. There is always other players and marketing is a big part of today's game, the NBA can "make" new stars.

Just my random thoughts on this for today.

[Kobr]

today is the today...

[thejumpa]

Their financial situation? You mean the situation in which they're making in 1 year more than you'll make in your whole life.

Really you care about that?

:eek:

Yes.

[Hater]

So.....I'm not a fan because I like analyzing the lockout situation and hope that both parties get a fair deal? What, am I supposed to go around bashing the players simply because I want to be entertained and don't really give two shits about their financial situation? Give me a break....
You didn't answer the question. WHY do you care? If you're really just a fan of the game and not the individuals involved as people (none of whom you have a personal relationship with), why do you care? In this new age of social media, people think they actually have a relationship with the players.

[talk at ya]

I'm confused on the de-certification thing. If they de-certify... doesn't that mean there is no NBAPA now and the league can just start up with whatever players want to sign and play (assuming the NBA voids all old contract which I think they have the right to do in this case)?
Isn't the CBA between the NBA and the NBAPA just operating rules for the partnership between the NBA and NBAPA? With no NBAPA, the NBA would/should be free to operate in any manner they want since their partner basically dissolved no?

The only thing holding this back is the large amount of players that will be loyal to each other and refuse to go to the NBA without a union in place. But really, with a mix of players that "need the money", didn't want to de-certify in the first place, younger players and d-league "stars" (some who are good enough to be regular NBA players anyway), the league could easily start up without having to agree with union demands.

If i'm wrong, i'm wrong, but that could be a huge FU to the players if the league goes on without a large number of them, sure it won't be as popular, but what are true basketball fans going to do, watch WNBA?? Fans wouldn't be happy not having a lot of players they want to see, but they will get over it if they don't come back. There is always other players and marketing is a big part of today's game, the NBA can "make" new stars.

Just my random thoughts on this for today.

From my understanding, (which I don't know if this is 100% accurate) If there is no union, then the NBA has to abide by normal employment laws. It's illegal for all owners in an industry to conspire as a group and say that they will stop work and refuse to pay all workers who do a certain job, or that they will not pay workers over X amount for any reason, all things that the NBA is only able to do now because the players are in a Union which voids these laws

[sodap]

if im correct, decertification would mean free market too, which nobody wants in the nba, especially the owners of small market teams. this is a strange scenario where the union is the best for the employer

[gasolina]

if im correct, decertification would mean free market too, which nobody wants in the nba, especially the owners of small market teams. this is a strange scenario where the union is the best for the employer
It also helps the players too. W/o the CBA, Glen Robinson contracts would be prevalent. Also teams would be free to fire players as they please. Benefits would also be non-standard and the there will be a very big disparity of income between the superstars and everyone else.

[thejumpa]

You didn't answer the question. WHY do you care? If you're really just a fan of the game and not the individuals involved as people (none of whom you have a personal relationship with), why do you care? In this new age of social media, people think they actually have a relationship with the players.

lol this guy...do you want my biography or something? What do you want to know? What line of work I'm in? If I'm a sports agent? Business is what I studied in school, something that I've involved in now and something I have a legitimate passion for. It's an interesting topic for me and definitely goes past just "being a fan".

Whether I know these players or not is irrelevant. I'm not on here saying "Oh, players should make X and owners should make X...and that's fair." I'm saying this...if you feel like the deal isn't right, don't sign it. Continue to negotiate. That goes for BOTH SIDES.

[Hater]

lol this guy...do you want my biography or something? What do you want to know? What line of work I'm in? If I'm a sports agent? Business is what I studied in school, something that I've involved in now and something I have a legitimate passion for. It's an interesting topic for me and definitely goes past just "being a fan".

Whether I know these players or not is irrelevant. I'm not on here saying "Oh, players should make X and owners should make X...and that's fair." I'm saying this...if you feel like the deal isn't right, don't sign it. Continue to negotiate. That goes for BOTH SIDES.
Why does it matter to you? I can't fathom why anyone who is just a fan of the game being played would care. What effect does it have on you? It's like people that are emotionally invested in reality TV shows. Just doesn't compute for me. I'm not asking for your background. I'm asking why you care. You can't seem to give a straight answer.

[Jasper]

Why does it matter to you? I can't fathom why anyone who is just a fan of the game being played would care. What effect does it have on you? It's like people that are emotionally invested in reality TV shows. Just doesn't compute for me. I'm not asking for your background. I'm asking why you care. You can't seem to give a straight answer.
why is it effecting you , what he thinks or feels about the league and the lockout :confusedshrug:

[Hater]

why is it effecting you , what he thinks or feels about the league and the lockout :confusedshrug:
It's not affecting me personally. I'm asking a question. I'm just curious why a person would take that kind of position. With any position I take, I can explain why I take that position.

[thejumpa]

It's not affecting me personally. I'm asking a question. I'm just curious why a person would take that kind of position. With any position I take, I can explain why I take that position.

Well, it's clear that it's affecting you personally because you keep asking me the same stupid question over and over. Can you not read? Let me break it down to you one more time.

1. I don't really care, it's just an interesting topic to discuss. I've had experience negotiating and working in a union. It's a bitch but you gotta do what's right for you.

2. If you are at the point where you say no to every deal proposed and are willing to stick to your guns to get what you want, why should I hate on that? I don't want to watch basketball bad enough to the point where I want them to sign a bad deal "just because". At this point, it's more about a respect thing for me. Stand for something or fall for nothing.

3. It's my opinion, man. If you don't agree, that's cool. Explain why and keep it moving. Don't try to back me in a corner with stupid questions. It aint gonna work.

[Hater]

Well, it's clear that it's affecting you personally because you keep asking me the same stupid question over and over. Can you not read? Let me break it down to you one more time.

1. I don't really care, it's just an interesting topic to discuss. I've had experience negotiating and working in a union. It's a bitch but you gotta do what's right for you.

2. If you are at the point where you say no to every deal proposed and are willing to stick to your guns to get what you want, why should I hate on that? I don't want to watch basketball bad enough to the point where I want them to sign a bad deal "just because". At this point, it's more about a respect thing for me. Stand for something or fall for nothing.

3. It's my opinion, man. If you don't agree, that's cool. Explain why and keep it moving. Don't try to back me in a corner with stupid questions. It aint gonna work.
Nope, it has no personal effect on me. You clearly care or you wouldn't take the stance you took. It goes beyond an "interesting topic" if you care what the terms of the deal are. An objective fan whose only interest is seeing the game played cares only that a deal is struck. You're seeking to identify with one or both of the parties involved. I didn't say there's anything wrong with that. I'm asking why you care. It's clear you've attached yourself emotionally to the negotiations as if you're a part of it. The rest of us that don't need this emotional connection just want to be entertained. I don't get what's so hard to understand about this.

[Hater]

This is what you said:


As a fan, I'd rather miss the season and have them get a better deal.

Again, you can't say "as a fan" and then say you'd rather miss a season. Those are two conflicting ideas. What exactly is it that you're a fan of? Because it's not the NBA.

You can't even explain why you say this. You'd rather the players get a "better" deal. Why? You can't even explain why. What does how much money goes in their pockets have to do with you? You don't get any of it. I'm not saying you shouldn't have an opinion. I'm asking WHY that's your opinion. You still can't explain it because you don't know why you feel that way. I don't get why you're getting so upset about that. People watch and follow the NBA because they're fans of the games. If you'd rather lose a season just so the players can get a "better" deal, you're not a fan of the game. For a fan, the priority is watching the games. If it's because you're seeking to identify with the players, just admit so. And stop saying you don't care because you do.

[thejumpa]

Nope, it has no personal effect on me. You clearly care or you wouldn't take the stance you took. It goes beyond an "interesting topic" if you care what the terms of the deal are. An objective fan whose only interest is seeing the game played cares only that a deal is struck. You're seeking to identify with one or both of the parties involved. I didn't say there's anything wrong with that. I'm asking why you care. It's clear you've attached yourself emotionally to the negotiations as if you're a part of it. The rest of us that don't need this emotional connection just want to be entertained. I don't get what's so hard to understand about this.

Let me ask you this. Why do YOU care that I care? Everybody on this board has voiced their opinion on the lockout. I'm definitely not the first person to say "I hope the players get a fair deal". Why are you focusing on me?

Dunno what to tell you. I don't know anyone in the NBPA but I do have personal relationships with a few guys in the league or who have tried to get in the league in the past. Maybe I want to see them get compensated fairly? That's what you wanna hear? Damn....

[JohnnyWall]

Let me ask you this. Why do YOU care that I care? Everybody on this board has voiced their opinion on the lockout. I'm definitely not the first person to say "I hope the players get a fair deal". Why are you focusing on me?

Dunno what to tell you. I don't know anyone in the NBPA but I do have personal relationships with a few guys in the league or who have tried to get in the league in the past. Maybe I want to see them get compensated fairly? That's what you wanna hear? Damn....

He's saying, quite correctly, that you're not really a true fan if you'd rather an entire season be lost for the sake of a few extra BRI percentage points for the players and a little bit more money in their bank accounts.

I don't know why this back-and-forth is continuing though.

[thejumpa]

He's saying, quite correctly, that you're not really a true fan if you'd rather an entire season be lost for the sake of a few extra BRI percentage points for the players and a little bit more money in their bank accounts.

I don't know why this back-and-forth is continuing though.

Well then I'm guess I'm not a "true" fan:oldlol:

[OmniStrife]

Honestly, I don't give a shit about how much money they get,
I just want them to play, and to play their best.