ISH's #18 Player of Alltime

[Deuce Bigalow]

#1: Michael Jordan (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237455)
#2: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237815)
#3: Bill Russell (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237918)
#4: Magic Johnson (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238016)
#5: Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238103)
#6: Larry Bird (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238181)
#7: Shaquille O'Neal (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238203)
#8: Tim Duncan (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238309)
#9: Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238385)
#10: Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238486)
#11: Jerry West (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238569)
#12: Oscar Robertson (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238681)
#13: Moses Malone (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238749)
#14: Julius Erving (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238814)
#15: Charles Barkley (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238859)
#16: Karl Malone (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238954)
#17: Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239053)

-----------------------------------------------
ISH's #17 Player of Alltime - Kevin Garnett

http://www.bballone.com/keving/timberwolves/images/timberwolves11.jpg
----------------------------------------------

Candidates:
George Mikan
Bob Pettit
Elgin Baylor
John Havlicek
Isiah Thomas
Rick Barry
David Robinson
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwyane Wade
Lebron James
Patrick Ewing
Scottie Pippen
John Stockton
Steve Nash
Elvin Hayes
Allen Iverson
Clyde Drexler
Bob Cousy
Jason Kidd
Pete Maravich
Gary Payton

[OmniStrife]

John Havlicek

Must I use a large font this time??

[DaPerceive]

Dirk Nowitzki.

[Deuce Bigalow]

John Havlicek

Must I use a large font this time??

what do you mean?
I counted all the votes, If you want to see the final count its here http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6470450&postcount=54

[Orlando Magic]

If I'm trying to a win title with a prime player starting a blank team there's no way in hell I'd take Jordan, Magic or Bird over Shaq, Russell, Kareem or Wilt.

Sorry. Perimeter players are insanely overrated. It's not their fault they don't impact as much. It's the nature of the game.

I'd also like to note that there's no way that LeBron James isn't better than some of the guys already on the list, so he gets my vote.

[Fatal9]

Lebronze

[FF1]

Dirk Nowitzki

[Sakkreth]

Dirk.

[L8kersfan222]

Dirk

[kentatm]

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/247446_150023418401803_149832898420855_274513_6542 045_n.jpg

[RobertdeMeijer]

John Havlicek

[Yung D-Will]

D-rob

[Harison]

Havlicek needs more loving. :cheers:

8 championships.
NBA Finals MVP
13x NBA All Star
All-Rookie Team
4x All-NBA First Team
7x All-NBA Second Team
5x NBA All-Defensive First Team
3x NBA All-Defensive Second Team

[OmniStrife]

what do you mean?
I counted all the votes, If you want to see the final count its here http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6470450&postcount=54


It's all good bro. :cheers:
I was just implying how he was forgotten by my fellow voters.

[hammer2010]

David Robinson

[BoogieWoogieMan]

Hondo

[nycelt84]

Havlicek should have been at 15. Easily Hondo.

[ClutchBucketz]

Admiral

[Smoke117]

David Robinson The most underrated player this little f.ucking site of kiddies has ever seen I honestly find this list a joke in general but i'll at lest stand up for the Admiral who has probably become the most underrated player of all time. **** you children that don't know your basketball and hw this man dominated...learn your ****ing history.

[rmt]

David Robinson

[alenleomessi]

I think it's time for Lebron

[CJ Mustard]

David Robinson.

[raiderfan19]

Dirk, but if its the amiral im ok with that

[RobertdeMeijer]

David Robinson The most underrated player this little f.ucking site of kiddies has ever seen I honestly find this list a joke in general but i'll at lest stand up for the Admiral who has probably become the most underrated player of all time. **** you children that don't know your basketball and hw this man dominated...learn your ****ing history.

Don't sweat it man, he's "losing" to Dirk and Hondo. That's not that crazy:

Havlicek is way more "history" than David Robinson. I voted for him because he was a large part in not one, but two dynasties.

I can't get upset about Dirk getting higher though. He was the best player on the best team for one year (something Robinson never completely achieved, and Hondo only achieved in a watered-down league). Both Robinson and Hondo constantly had winning seasons; but the same can be said about Dirk's Mavericks.

If this were a pickup game, I'd choose Robinson before the other two, but as history went on, those guys had more success.

[FF1]

lol if Dirk ends up being behind Malone AND Barkley AND KG AND Robinson. What more can he do? Awesome playoff stats, ring as the #1 guy with no other stars.

Which of those 5 guys averaged 25+/10+ in the playoffs? Only Dirk.

[creepingdeath]

Dirk

[Richesly]

The list was already messed up, but KG at 17. Yeah, he isn't or wasn't even better than LeBron.

[FF1]

David Robinson The most underrated player this little f.ucking site of kiddies has ever seen I honestly find this list a joke in general but i'll at lest stand up for the Admiral who has probably become the most underrated player of all time. **** you children that don't know your basketball and hw this man dominated...learn your ****ing history.


Playoff stats:
Robinson: 18.6 ppg / 10.6 rebounds / 2.3 assists / 48% fg / N/A 3-point % / 70% ft / 23 PER / 54.7 TS% / 17.5 WS / .199 WS per 48min

Dirk: 25.9 ppg / 10.4 rebounds / 2.6 assists / 46.3 fg / 38% 3-pointers / 89% ft / 24.7 PER / 58.4 TS% / 22.1 WS / .207 WS per 48min

Dirk has also already played more playoff games than Robinson.. so you could say Dirk's playoff prime has been longer than Robinson's entire career.

If you remove Robinson's last two crappy years, Dirk still comes out clearly on top (and Robinson loses another 2nd fiddle championship in the process). Also, one of those two crappy years only includes 4 games so it won't change his averages at all.

[pauk]

havlicek was a ****ing sidekick... :facepalm

[pauk]

Edit:


I Vote For David Robinson

[pauk]

LEBRON JAMES

2 x MVP
2 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
5 x All-NBA 1st team
7 x NBA All-Star
1 x NBA scoring champion
3 x All-Defensive 1st team
All-Rookie 1st team
1 x Gold Medal
17 x Player of the Month trophies (most in NBA history)

STATS:

17362 points @ 27.7 PPG (#3 all time)
4451 rebounds @ 7.1 RPG
4364 assists @ 7.0 APG
1079 steals @ 1.7 SPG
532 blocks @ 0.8 BPG
40 total triple doubles

PER - 26.9 (#2 all-time after only Michael Jordan)

DIRK NOWITZKI

1 x MVP
1 x Champion
1 x FMVP
4 x All-NBA 1st team
10 x NBA All-Star

STATS:

22792 points @ 23.0 PPG
8315 rebounds @ 8.4 RPG
2655 assists @ 2.7 APG
884 steals @ 0.9 SPG
983 blocks @ 1.0 BPG

PER - 23.7 (#15 all-time)

I wont even mention the magnitude of milestones, records Lebron possess over Dirk....
I wont even mention the impact and team success he bringed based on what he had to work with around him...
I wont even mention the overall playoff performance...
I wont even mention the fact of Lebron being much more talented-dominant-significant than Dirk...



:facepalm

[Sakkreth]

For me it's stupid to rank LeBron somewhere already.

[pauk]

For me it's stupid to rank LeBron somewhere already.

tell me... why? would be glad to hear....

meanwhile... answer me also why its ok to rank Dirk somewhere already and Lebron not already?

[Dragonyeuw]

David Robinson

[boyle777]

Dirk. Deserves rep now. Has been beastin' for years.

Also........for all the talk about how lebron HAS to win a championship and be the FMVP to be considered among the all time greats, how can KG win a ring, not get the FMVP (arguably deserved it, but didn't so deal with it), and not get negged and still get voted #17 by posters on here, when Dirk has been more successful in the post season and went nuts to get his team the ship? Just a thought!

[Sakkreth]

tell me... why? would be glad to hear....

meanwhile... answer me also why its ok to rank Dirk somewhere already and Lebron not already?

Because I simply think that ranking players in all-time list who maybe haven't even been in their peak yet is stupid. What other way I could explain it ?

[ACCBaller1403]

I would vote Dirk with DRob next in line. DRob had better regular season stats and a better basketball body but couldn't win without Duncan who was the true leader ofthose championship teams. He just didn't bring it like Dirk has in the playoffs.

Gotta be Dirk.

Edit: Isiah belongs in this group too.

[dynasty1978]

18. Dirk
19. Hondo

[pauk]

Because I simply think that ranking players in all-time list who maybe haven't even been in their peak yet is stupid. What other way I could explain it ?

thats very unfair logic...

peaked or not peaked.... the whole point of ranks like these is finding out who overall accomplished the most, legacy, talent, career all in all..... something which Lebron has done more than enough of already to deserve this spot....

lebrons career already is in the repertoire of Barkley/Malone.... and thats where he belongs in the ranks... peak or no peak...

[RRR3]

The Admiral

[pauk]

The Admiral

after a bit of research i think thats the only player i can agree with who had better career than Lebron at this point... not Dirk...

2

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=pauk]Thats the only player i can agree with who had better career than Lebron at this point... not Dirk...

2

[Yung D-Will]

[QUOTE=pauk]after a bit of research i think thats the only player i can agree with who had better career than Lebron at this point... not Dirk...

2

[colts19]

Hondo

[Tha Catalyst]

We may not have seen Mikan but his achievement stand up to the players from 12ish onwards. So my vote which seems pointless at this stage is Mikan, he has to be top 20, you can only dominate the era you play in, which he did.

[Tha Catalyst]

Also, what case do dirk and D-rob have over Mikan?

[pauk]

I love it when people try to claim their opinon as fact. Especially when they're opinion is extremely biased.

Kind of like Kobe fans who claim that it's a fact Kobe is better than Jordan

the whatever opinion i made there is based on those facts i just presented... those accomplishments...

go ahead and compare Davids career to Dirks and you will see what i mean, i can do that for you:

DIRK NOWITZKI

1 x MVP
1 x Champion
1 x FMVP
4 x All-NBA 1st team
10 x NBA All-Star

STATS:

22792 points @ 23.0 PPG
8315 rebounds @ 8.4 RPG
2655 assists @ 2.7 APG
884 steals @ 0.9 SPG
983 blocks @ 1.0 BPG

PER - 23.7 (#15 all-time)


DAVID ROBINSON

1 x MVP
2 x Champion
1 x Defensive Player of the Year
4 x All-NBA 1st team
8 x All-Defensive team
10 x NBA All-Star
All-Rookie 1st team
Rookie of the Year

STATS:

20790 points @ 21.1 PPG
10497 rebounds @ 10.6 RPG
2441 assists @ 2.5 APG
1388 steals @ 1.4 SPG
2954 blocks @ 3.0 BPG

PER - 26.2 (#4 all-time)




now please sit there and act like Dirk had a better career.... when he has NOT...


DAVID > DIRK (once again, not an opinion, a fact... considering the above)

[Fatal9]

Hondo in top 20 is :facepalm

Why do people not care about how good players are on these lists? Hondo had a great career but putting him over players who were MVPs and more dominant than he ever was? What is the point of these lists if you start doing that? He's like the 60s/70s version of Ginobili and people are saying top 15. Can we use some context here.

[pauk]

of topic maybe, but checkout David Robinsons best season:

30 PPG
11 RPG
5 APG
3 BPG
2 SPG

what a fuking beast... that season he also had a 71 point game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUn7BvZ-4ZQ

:bowdown:

[pauk]

Hondo in top 20 is :facepalm

Why do people not care about how good players are on these lists? Hondo had a great career but putting him over players who were MVPs and more dominant than he ever was? What is the point of these lists if you start doing that? He's like the 60s/70s version of Ginobili and people are saying top 15. Can we use some context here.

just... anybody but lebron.. thats the thing here on ISH :lol

now im fine with that... but damn... at least go with David Robinson...

[Miller for 3]

His 71 point game was a joke. Drob was a beast though and should get voted in soon

[Miller for 3]

Why the Hondo hate? Best perimeter defender of his era, extremely clutch and the leading scorer on 4 championship teams. Was the best player on a 68 win team (averaged a 24-7-7) and had some GREAT champhionship playoff runs (26-9-8 in 68, 25-10-6 in 69, 27-6-6 in 74 at the age of 33). Also one of clutchest players ever. Everyone knows his steal and jumpers in the Bucks/Suns series, but he had other huge moments like his 43 point game 2 in 6 or his 40-10-7 clinching game 6 in 68

He was inefficent in his early days as a 6th man, but that was the mid 60s and everyone shot bad then. Hondo could play a ton of roles (6th man, go to clutch scorer, shutdown defender, point forward), was insanely clutch and had a great impact on his teams. He should be voted in soon

[Fatal9]

Why the Hondo hate? Best perimeter defender of his era, extremely clutch and the leading scorer on 4 championship teams. Was the best player on a 68 win team (averaged a 24-7-7) and had some GREAT champhionship playoff runs (26-9-8 in 68, 25-10-6 in 69, 27-6-6 in 74 at the age of 33). Also one of clutchest players ever. Everyone knows his steal and jumpers in the Bucks/Suns series, but he had other huge moments like his 43 point game 2 in 6 or his 40-10-7 clinching game 6 in 68

He was inefficent in his early days as a 6th man, but that was the mid 60s and everyone shot bad then. Hondo could play a ton of roles (6th man, go to clutch scorer, shutdown defender, point forward), was insanely clutch and had a great impact on his teams. He should be voted in soon

The two years where his numbers look really pretty need a closer look. He was playing like 45 minutes a game on a team that took the most shots in the league. That's going to produce raw numbers to make you look better than you really are. So raw statline looks impressive but if you look at it adjusted to the minutes/pace...they weren't really that impressive statistically (stats that take this into account kind of show this). Just something I hope everyone realizes, when he puts up 25/7/7...it's not really the 25/7/7 LeBron is putting up nowadays.

He won championships, but he was never the leading MVP guy on his team in any of those years. During his first 6 championships? He finished top 10 in MVP voting once...and it was exactly 10th behind a 34 year old Cousy and Terry Deschinger. He won with Russell just like everyone else did, though I'll admit he probably did a lot more than anyone else Russell played with in the '68 and '69 playoffs. Then when Celtics won 68 in '73? Cowens won the MVP. Then when they won in '74? Cowens was top 4, Hondo was tied for 9th with Norm Van Lier. Then when they won in '76? Cowens was a couple of first place votes away from winning the MVP again...Hondo meanwhile was 24th (he was putting up 17/4/4 by this point, 13/4/3 in the playoffs...and they still won). And it's not like he led the team anywhere when Russell left (from championship to 34 wins) and Cowens wasn't drafted yet, maybe that's the reason he didn't really get MVP love over Cowens in the 70s.

You win half your championships putting up 12/5/2, 16/4/2, 13/4/3, 18/7/2 shooting 35%...I'm not going to see championships as a reason for you to be over LeBron, Dirk, D-Rob and others who won MVPs, played at a level he didn't and were in best player conversations year after year (no matter how you look at it...whether MVP voting, stats etc). And even the other runs, just use perspective on his stats because the combination of the pace, minutes and his efficiency doesn't really end up showing those as some epic playoff runs you expect out of a top 20 guy (especially one whose regular seasons don't hold up against most of these guys).

Again, to me he is like the Ginobili of that era but with amazing longevity, clutch, great all-around game, incorporated his game with the team well (played as sixth man if needed), won finals MVP while not exactly being seen as the best player on the team and so on.

[ACCBaller1403]

of topic maybe, but checkout David Robinsons best season:

30 PPG
11 RPG
5 APG
3 BPG
2 SPG

what a fuking beast... that season he also had a 71 point game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUn7BvZ-4ZQ

:bowdown:

The 71 point game his team was spoon-feeding him the ball every time down the court to win the scoring title. Not overly impressive.

Drob's a beast and I've met him multiple times. I really like him and you wouldn't find a better person. As a clutch playoff performer though, he left much on the table.

[Miller for 3]

The two years where his numbers look really pretty need a closer look. He was playing like 45 minutes a game on a team that took the most shots in the league. That's going to produce raw numbers to make you look better than you really are. So raw statline looks impressive but if you look at it adjusted to the minutes/pace...they weren't really that impressive statistically (stats that take this into account kind of show this). Just something I hope everyone realizes, when he puts up 25/7/7...it's not really the 25/7/7 LeBron is putting up nowadays.

He won championships, but he was never the leading MVP guy on his team in any of those years. During his first 6 championships? He finished top 10 in MVP voting once...and it was exactly 10th behind a 34 year old Cousy and Terry Deschinger. He won with Russell just like everyone else did, though I'll admit he probably did a lot more than anyone else Russell played with in the '68 and '69 playoffs. Then when Celtics won 68 in '73? Cowens won the MVP. Then when they won in '74? Cowens was top 4, Hondo was tied for 9th with Norm Van Lier. Then when they won in '76? Cowens was a couple of first place votes away from winning the MVP again...Hondo meanwhile was 24th (he was putting up 17/4/4 by this point, 13/4/3 in the playoffs...and they still won). And it's not like he led the team anywhere when Russell left (from championship to 34 wins) and Cowens wasn't drafted yet, maybe that's the reason he didn't really get MVP love over Cowens in the 70s.

You win half your championships putting up 12/5/2, 16/4/2, 13/4/3, 18/7/2 shooting 35%...I'm not going to see championships as a reason for you to be over LeBron, Dirk, D-Rob and others who won MVPs, played at a level he didn't and were in best player conversations year after year (no matter how you look at it...whether MVP voting, stats etc). And even the other runs, just use perspective on his stats because the combination of the pace, minutes and his efficiency doesn't really end up showing those as some epic playoff runs you expect out of a top 20 guy (especially one whose regular seasons don't hold up against most of these guys).

Again, to me he is like the Ginobili of that era but with amazing longevity, clutch, great all-around game, incorporated his game with the team well (played as sixth man if needed), won finals MVP while not exactly being seen as the best player on the team and so on.

Good points, but to me the pace thing is negated a bit by the fact that the stars in todays league run so many of plays and there is little ball movement and far more ISOs. This makes it easier for guys like Wade and Lebron to get ball dominant box score stats, while in Hondos day ball movement was more present and scrubs took a lot of jumpers. He was averaging 17 points well past his 35th birthday, he would have no problem being a 25-5-5 player on a good team in any era. His 25-7-7 is more impressive to me because he did it in a team oriented successful setting. And yes half of his championship runs were not star caliber, but the other half were and should not be dismissed.

He wasn't popular in the MVP voting, but neither was Pierce, Marques Johnson, or Wade. Doesn't mean they were/are scrubs, just means maybe they weren't evaluated correctly during their time. I get where you are coming from, and I would have Dirk, Drob, Barry, and Lebron over Hondo, but he should be soon is all I was getting at

[pauk]

The two years where his numbers look really pretty need a closer look. He was playing like 45 minutes a game on a team that took the most shots in the league. That's going to produce raw numbers to make you look better than you really are. So raw statline looks impressive but if you look at it adjusted to the minutes/pace...they weren't really that impressive statistically (stats that take this into account kind of show this). Just something I hope everyone realizes, when he puts up 25/7/7...it's not really the 25/7/7 LeBron is putting up nowadays.

He won championships, but he was never the leading MVP guy on his team in any of those years. During his first 6 championships? He finished top 10 in MVP voting once...and it was exactly 10th behind a 34 year old Cousy and Terry Deschinger. He won with Russell just like everyone else did, though I'll admit he probably did a lot more than anyone else Russell played with in the '68 and '69 playoffs. Then when Celtics won 68 in '73? Cowens won the MVP. Then when they won in '74? Cowens was top 4, Hondo was tied for 9th with Norm Van Lier. Then when they won in '76? Cowens was a couple of first place votes away from winning the MVP again...Hondo meanwhile was 24th (he was putting up 17/4/4 by this point, 13/4/3 in the playoffs...and they still won). And it's not like he led the team anywhere when Russell left (from championship to 34 wins) and Cowens wasn't drafted yet, maybe that's the reason he didn't really get MVP love over Cowens in the 70s.

You win half your championships putting up 12/5/2, 16/4/2, 13/4/3, 18/7/2 shooting 35%...I'm not going to see championships as a reason for you to be over LeBron, Dirk, D-Rob and others who won MVPs, played at a level he didn't and were in best player conversations year after year (no matter how you look at it...whether MVP voting, stats etc). And even the other runs, just use perspective on his stats because the combination of the pace, minutes and his efficiency doesn't really end up showing those as some epic playoff runs you expect out of a top 20 guy (especially one whose regular seasons don't hold up against most of these guys).

Again, to me he is like the Ginobili of that era but with amazing longevity, clutch, great all-around game, incorporated his game with the team well (played as sixth man if needed), won finals MVP while not exactly being seen as the best player on the team and so on.

:applause:

[DMAVS41]

the whatever opinion i made there is based on those facts i just presented... those accomplishments...

go ahead and compare Davids career to Dirks and you will see what i mean, i can do that for you:

DIRK NOWITZKI

1 x MVP
1 x Champion
1 x FMVP
4 x All-NBA 1st team
10 x NBA All-Star

STATS:

22792 points @ 23.0 PPG
8315 rebounds @ 8.4 RPG
2655 assists @ 2.7 APG
884 steals @ 0.9 SPG
983 blocks @ 1.0 BPG

PER - 23.7 (#15 all-time)


DAVID ROBINSON

1 x MVP
2 x Champion
1 x Defensive Player of the Year
4 x All-NBA 1st team
8 x All-Defensive team
10 x NBA All-Star
All-Rookie 1st team
Rookie of the Year

STATS:

20790 points @ 21.1 PPG
10497 rebounds @ 10.6 RPG
2441 assists @ 2.5 APG
1388 steals @ 1.4 SPG
2954 blocks @ 3.0 BPG

PER - 26.2 (#4 all-time)




now please sit there and act like Dirk had a better career.... when he has NOT...


DAVID > DIRK (once again, not an opinion, a fact... considering the above)


How on earth can you do a breakdown of two players like that and completely leave out by far the most important thing?

Playoffs....you don't even mention a single thing about playoffs. LOL

Playoffs:

Dirk 26/10/3 on 49.4% efg 58.4% TS 24.7 PER .207 ws/48

Robinson 18/11/2 on 47.9% efg 54.7% TS 23.0 PER .199 ws/48

And Dirk has led a team to a title as clearly the best player. Something Robinson never did and maybe never could have done. Not to mention that entering a 4th qtr in the playoffs in a close game.....there is no doubt which player you want on your team. And that matters a lot.

Notice how Robinson gets worse across the board in the playoffs? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[G.O.A.T]

He won championships, but he was never the leading MVP guy on his team in any of those years. During his first 6 championships? He finished top 10 in MVP voting once...and it was exactly 10th behind a 34 year old Cousy and Terry Deschinger. He won with Russell just like everyone else did, though I'll admit he probably did a lot more than anyone else Russell played with in the '68 and '69 playoffs. Then when Celtics won 68 in '73? Cowens won the MVP. Then when they won in '74? Cowens was top 4, Hondo was tied for 9th with Norm Van Lier. Then when they won in '76? Cowens was a couple of first place votes away from winning the MVP again...Hondo meanwhile was 24th (he was putting up 17/4/4 by this point, 13/4/3 in the playoffs...and they still won). And it's not like he led the team anywhere when Russell left (from championship to 34 wins) and Cowens wasn't drafted yet, maybe that's the reason he didn't really get MVP love over Cowens in the 70s.

In regards to the MVP voting, it's very hard to use as a gauge from that era because the players for the most part were so dialed in on centers from the Wilt/Russell era on. Besides Oscar who won it in 1964, the MVP went to a center every year the players voted on after 1959. There are plenty of examples of how the players recognized the importance of a center and allowed their voting to reflect that. In 1967 Nate Thurmond was second in the MVP voting despite his more esteemed teammate, Rick Barry, winning the scoring title with the highest average ever posted by a perimeter player. In '69 Unseld won the award and Willis Reed took second when guys like Billy Cunningham and Jerry West were at least as deserving. In 1970 Reed won it, but Jerry West had his best season arguably and I for one would take the best of West over the best of Willis. In 1974 centers took the top five spots, in '75 four of five. According to Jerry West in the new book "West by West" guys like Archibald, Rick Barry and Havlicek all had what would have been MVP seasons in the modern era with the balance of power shifted from the bigs. The most telling sign is that in 1981, the first year that the media, not the players voted fro MVP it went to a non-center, Julius Erving.

[G.O.A.T]

Baylor, Pettit, Mikan

Those are the three I'd be looking at. All belong above Barkley, Malone and Garnett in my opinion. Of course this list will skew towards the modern players because of the natural bias towards familiarity. However, at least at this point a case can be made for the likes of those three PF's over those three all-time greats who were born before WWII. (Except Mikan who has a top-10 resume and top eight impact and should not be left out of a top ten unless you're excluding the pre-shotclock era.)

[SayTownRy]

D Rob

[Fazotronic]

the whatever opinion i made there is based on those facts i just presented... those accomplishments...

go ahead and compare Davids career to Dirks and you will see what i mean, i can do that for you:

DIRK NOWITZKI

1 x MVP
1 x Champion
1 x FMVP
4 x All-NBA 1st team
10 x NBA All-Star

STATS:

22792 points @ 23.0 PPG
8315 rebounds @ 8.4 RPG
2655 assists @ 2.7 APG
884 steals @ 0.9 SPG
983 blocks @ 1.0 BPG

PER - 23.7 (#15 all-time)


DAVID ROBINSON

1 x MVP
2 x Champion
1 x Defensive Player of the Year
4 x All-NBA 1st team
8 x All-Defensive team
10 x NBA All-Star
All-Rookie 1st team
Rookie of the Year

STATS:

20790 points @ 21.1 PPG
10497 rebounds @ 10.6 RPG
2441 assists @ 2.5 APG
1388 steals @ 1.4 SPG
2954 blocks @ 3.0 BPG

PER - 26.2 (#4 all-time)




now please sit there and act like Dirk had a better career.... when he has NOT...


DAVID > DIRK (once again, not an opinion, a fact... considering the above)

lol way do tell ppl that you have no clue about the players and just go by the stats.
you look like a even bigger clueless idiot by completely ignoring the more important stats like playoffs, clutchness, being the leader, getting fmvp as the MAN etc.
you might as well vote for pippen instead of robinson.

[Fazotronic]

Dirk Nowitzki

[bballnoob1192]

if dirk wins im going to jump off a bridge cuz KG winning alredy makes me want to kick a kitten in the face. that said im voting for david robinson

[bballnoob1192]

holy shit and people said championships dont mean anything lmfao this latest finals just prove how much you will jump in all time rankings if u win a championship.

[Yung D-Will]

Lol Really Pauk just compared their regular season stats and didn't even put their playoff numbers then claimed it's a fact D-Rob> Dirk

Do you know what a fact is?

[Fazotronic]

holy shit and people said championships dont mean anything lmfao this latest finals just prove how much you will jump in all time rankings if u win a championship.

dumbass. why on earth do you think bill russell is so high?
why duncan ahead of hakeem?

ppl would probably rank kobe as second best player ever if he wasn't just a sidekick on the 3peat.

and besides that. you can't just be the better player. you also have to play better than the others.
even if robinson is the better player, it doesn't help him much when he just doesn't perform like dirk did.

jezus is like the tards that say amare is better defender than dirk if he wants to.
But he doesn't so who cares?

[RRR3]

How on earth can you do a breakdown of two players like that and completely leave out by far the most important thing?

Playoffs....you don't even mention a single thing about playoffs. LOL

Playoffs:

Dirk 26/10/3 on 49.4% efg 58.4% TS 24.7 PER .207 ws/48

Robinson 18/11/2 on 47.9% efg 54.7% TS 23.0 PER .199 ws/48

And Dirk has led a team to a title as clearly the best player. Something Robinson never did and maybe never could have done. Not to mention that entering a 4th qtr in the playoffs in a close game.....there is no doubt which player you want on your team. And that matters a lot.

Notice how Robinson gets worse across the board in the playoffs? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


LOL @ Ws/48. GTFO that stat is shit. D-Rob's playoff numbers are lowered because a lot of his deeper runs came when he was older and TD had replaced him as the first option. However, let's look at his first 6 playoff numbers:

1989-90: 10 games, 24/12/2 with 4 blocks and a 1 steal on 53% FG and 68% FT
1990-91: 4 games, 26/14/2 with 4 blocks and 2 steals on 69% FG and 87% FT
1992-93: 10 Games, 23/13/4 with 4 blocks and a steal on 47% FG and 66% FT
1993-94: 4 games, 20/10/4 with 1 steal and 3 blocks on 41% FG and 74% FT
1994-95: 15 games, 25/12/3 with 3 blocks and a steal on 45/20/81 shooting.
1995-96: 10 games, 24/10/2 with 3 blocks and 2 steals on 52% FG and 67% FT.

[Yung D-Will]

LOL @ Ws/48. GTFO that stat is shit. D-Rob's playoff numbers are lowered because a lot of his deeper runs came when he was older and TD had replaced him as the first option. However, let's look at his first 6 playoff numbers:

1989-90: 10 games, 24/12/2 with 4 blocks and a 1 steal on 53% FG and 68% FT
1990-91: 4 games, 26/14/2 with 4 blocks and 2 steals on 69% FG and 87% FT
1992-93: 10 Games, 23/13/4 with 4 blocks and a steal on 47% FG and 66% FT
1993-94: 4 games, 20/10/4 with 1 steal and 3 blocks on 41% FG and 74% FT
1994-95: 15 games, 25/12/3 with 3 blocks and a steal on 45/20/81 shooting.
1995-96: 10 games, 24/10/2 with 3 blocks and 2 steals on 52% FG and 67% FT.

In 94 his averages dropped in the post season
In 95 his averages dropped in the post season
In 96 his averages dropped in the post season

So how exactly does that make him a better playoff performer ? People have always criticized D-Rob for his decrease in production in the post season I guess this is just history overrating a past player.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LOL @ Ws/48. GTFO that stat is shit. D-Rob's playoff numbers are lowered because a lot of his deeper runs came when he was older and TD had replaced him as the first option. However, let's look at his first 6 playoff numbers:

1989-90: 10 games, 24/12/2 with 4 blocks and a 1 steal on 53% FG and 68% FT
1990-91: 4 games, 26/14/2 with 4 blocks and 2 steals on 69% FG and 87% FT
1992-93: 10 Games, 23/13/4 with 4 blocks and a steal on 47% FG and 66% FT
1993-94: 4 games, 20/10/4 with 1 steal and 3 blocks on 41% FG and 74% FT
1994-95: 15 games, 25/12/3 with 3 blocks and a steal on 45/20/81 shooting.
1995-96: 10 games, 24/10/2 with 3 blocks and 2 steals on 52% FG and 67% FT.

While he may have left much to be desired a couple of series on that list, I'm confused as to why some have come to an inarguable conclusion that DRob was a mediocre playoff performer. Even those series where he shot shot sub ~45% (or lower), its not like he was shot-jacking. Look at his attempts; furthermore, take a look at his rebounding, blocked shots, and assists. People here are talking like the man was some 'choker' or 'sidekick' in the playoffs. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Yung D-Will]

While he may have left much to be desired a couple of series in that list, I'm not sure why some have come to an inarguable conclusion that he was a mediocre playoff performer. Even those series where he shot shot sub ~45% (or lower), its not like the he was shot-jacking. Look at his attempts; furthermore, take a look at his rebounding, blocked shots, and assists. People here are talking like the man was some 'choker' or 'sidekick' in the playoffs. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I already voted for him in this thread. But trying to pretend like these players we're debating we're better playoff performers really doesn't make sense to me

[qrich]

John Stockton

[QUOTE] 10

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I already voted for him in this thread. But trying to pretend like these players we're debating we're better playoff performers really doesn't make sense to me

Trying to rewrite history essentially labeling Robinson a pedestrian postseason performer..is equally puzzling.

[Harison]

LOL @ Ws/48. GTFO that stat is shit. D-Rob's playoff numbers are lowered because a lot of his deeper runs came when he was older and TD had replaced him as the first option. However, let's look at his first 6 playoff numbers:

1989-90: 10 games, 24/12/2 with 4 blocks and a 1 steal on 53% FG and 68% FT
1990-91: 4 games, 26/14/2 with 4 blocks and 2 steals on 69% FG and 87% FT
1992-93: 10 Games, 23/13/4 with 4 blocks and a steal on 47% FG and 66% FT
1993-94: 4 games, 20/10/4 with 1 steal and 3 blocks on 41% FG and 74% FT
1994-95: 15 games, 25/12/3 with 3 blocks and a steal on 45/20/81 shooting.
1995-96: 10 games, 24/10/2 with 3 blocks and 2 steals on 52% FG and 67% FT.
Its all true, however its only half of the picture - DRob in his prime was DPOY level defender, and was actually better defender than Duncan in his prime.

So yes, 24/12 + DPOY defense wins over 26/10 player. Lets not forget Dirk had more help than Robinson (pre-Duncan days), and had lesser competition. Swap Robinson with Dirk, and not only Dirk would have zero rings as The Man, no MVPs, DPOYs, but also Duncan would have a ring or two less. :pimp: Robinson however in current NBA would tear current centers to shreds. Just look what Dwight is doing, and he is nowhere near as good as prime DRob.

[Yung D-Will]

Its all true, however its only half of the picture - DRob in his prime was DPOY level defender, and was actually better defender than Duncan in his prime.

So yes, 24/12 + DPOY defense wins over 26/10 player. Lets not forget Dirk had more help than Robinson (pre-Duncan days), and had lesser competition. Swap Robinson with Dirk, and not only Dirk would have zero rings as The Man, MVPs, DPOYs, but also Duncan would have a ring or two less. :pimp:


What do you mean by lesser competition? Are you talk about at his position? Just curious because the people I usally talk to seem to consider the early 00's as the best pf era.

[DMAVS41]

LOL @ Ws/48. GTFO that stat is shit. D-Rob's playoff numbers are lowered because a lot of his deeper runs came when he was older and TD had replaced him as the first option. However, let's look at his first 6 playoff numbers:

1989-90: 10 games, 24/12/2 with 4 blocks and a 1 steal on 53% FG and 68% FT
1990-91: 4 games, 26/14/2 with 4 blocks and 2 steals on 69% FG and 87% FT
1992-93: 10 Games, 23/13/4 with 4 blocks and a steal on 47% FG and 66% FT
1993-94: 4 games, 20/10/4 with 1 steal and 3 blocks on 41% FG and 74% FT
1994-95: 15 games, 25/12/3 with 3 blocks and a steal on 45/20/81 shooting.
1995-96: 10 games, 24/10/2 with 3 blocks and 2 steals on 52% FG and 67% FT.

I just used his career playoff stats and advanced stats. I'm not saying ws/48 means a lot. I just provided it as yet another measure that has Dirk better overall.

I'm actually high on Robinson....think he's under-rated. Won't call someone crazy for saying he's top 20 all time...even though i disagree. What I have issue is with people saying its a fact. Not true.

What is a fact? That Robinson simply wasn't as good as his numbers. Just like Karl Malone to an extent. I'm all for stats and I think they are great, but you also have to into account situations as well. And I watched Robinson's entire career and I can tell you right now he's simply not the player his stats portray him as. Him impact on the game was decidedly lower than his all time great averages.

That really is just a fact for anyone that followed the NBA throughout his career.

[Charlie Sheen]

voted zeke last time cuz i thought lebron was already on the list

Lebron is my vote

[SpecialQue]

Mikan.

[bballnoob1192]

lmfao calm down dude im just saying how much winning one championship will make u jump in the all time lists just like how before dirk won his latest rin no one would even put him in their top 20............im actually arguing against what you think i'm arguing for, but yea just start screaming lmfao like a crazy guy calling me a retard.

[Fazotronic]

lmfao calm down dude im just saying how much winning one championship will make u jump in the all time lists just like how before dirk won his latest rin no one would even put him in their top 20............im actually arguing against what you think i'm arguing for, but yea just start screaming lmfao like a crazy guy calling me a retard.

i didn't call you a retard. i called you a dumbass.
and where did i scream?
im guessing that you're reading my comments in full rage beacause if you read it calm and cool, you see that you're just being a dumbass again.

btw yet again you said "before dirk won his latest ring no one would even put him in their top 20":hammerhead: . can't you see the logic fail?
yes noone but now he DID win the ring while playing legendary.
this is exactly the stuff that makes you go higher in the all time ranks.:facepalm
whats your point? just ignore it?

[DMAVS41]

lmfao calm down dude im just saying how much winning one championship will make u jump in the all time lists just like how before dirk won his latest rin no one would even put him in their top 20............im actually arguing against what you think i'm arguing for, but yea just start screaming lmfao like a crazy guy calling me a retard.

this is true, but at the same time...people rank here off that.

not to mention, dirk wasn't any better this year really than he has been since 06. he played great, but he also played great in 06 and 08 through 10. The difference this year was his teammates. His teammates played significantly better than they ever have...the last time Dirk had a team even close to this good was 06 (and they made the finals)....and Dirk had Terry and other guys step up huge in big moments....the Mavs would have won then too.

So I totally get what you are saying, but not having a title was the only knock on Dirk. He's not officially done it all. MVP, Title, Finals MVP, great playoff performer, great regular season performer and success, he's one of the most clutch players ever, he's got some of the best playoff numbers ever.

Statistically Dirk is easily one of the best playoff players ever. Easily. Now you can't knock him for not winning.

So why wouldn't he be in the top 20? How many guys in the top 20 have done what Dirk has done? Malone and Barkley never led teams to titles. How many other guys in the top 20 have led teams to 11 straight 50 plus win seasons? How many players have led a team to a title without another all star or all nba player? How many players have led a team to the title as huge underdogs beating the two title favorites without HCA? How many players average over 25/10 for their career in the playoffs?...i'll answer that one....its 4 in the history of the game.

No matter how you slice it, Dirk is one of the greatest players ever and has had one of the greatest careers ever. He deserves to be in the top 20. Where is up for debate. I personally don't think Dr. J or Barkley or Malone or KG were really any better than Dirk. I think its debatable, but Dr. J for example just isn't in a different class of player. So it seems like Dirk should be in that 13 to 20 range or so.

I just find it hilarious when people start saying things like Baylor, Hondo, and Pettit were all clearly better than Dirk. Really? Did you watch them all play? How are they better? Statistically?...etc. Outside the top 11 or 12 its really hard to rank.

[JMT]

Kevin Garnett over the likes of Mikan, Baylor, Elvin Hayes and Rick Barry?

Y'all have lost your minds.

[RRR3]

this is true, but at the same time...people rank here off that.

not to mention, dirk wasn't any better this year really than he has been since 06. he played great, but he also played great in 06 and 08 through 10. The difference this year was his teammates. His teammates played significantly better than they ever have...the last time Dirk had a team even close to this good was 06 (and they made the finals)....and Dirk had Terry and other guys step up huge in big moments....the Mavs would have won then too.

So I totally get what you are saying, but not having a title was the only knock on Dirk. He's not officially done it all. MVP, Title, Finals MVP, great playoff performer, great regular season performer and success, he's one of the most clutch players ever, he's got some of the best playoff numbers ever.

Statistically Dirk is easily one of the best playoff players ever. Easily. Now you can't knock him for not winning.

So why wouldn't he be in the top 20? How many guys in the top 20 have done what Dirk has done? Malone and Barkley never led teams to titles. How many other guys in the top 20 have led teams to 11 straight 50 plus win seasons? How many players have led a team to a title without another all star or all nba player? How many players have led a team to the title as huge underdogs beating the two title favorites without HCA? How many players average over 25/10 for their career in the playoffs?...i'll answer that one....its 4 in the history of the game.

No matter how you slice it, Dirk is one of the greatest players ever and has had one of the greatest careers ever. He deserves to be in the top 20. Where is up for debate. I personally don't think Dr. J or Barkley or Malone or KG were really any better than Dirk. I think its debatable, but Dr. J for example just isn't in a different class of player. So it seems like Dirk should be in that 13 to 20 range or so.

I just find it hilarious when people start saying things like Baylor, Hondo, and Pettit were all clearly better than Dirk. Really? Did you watch them all play? How are they better? Statistically?...etc. Outside the top 11 or 12 its really hard to rank.

13th? 13th? 13TH??????? :no: :no: :no: :no:

[Legends66NBA7]

13th? 13th? 13TH??????? :no: :no: :no: :no:

Yeah, it's easier to rank these guys when their careers are done. Right now, Dirk's coming of a championship in epic fashion, so rankings are going to be him scaling up to ridiculous proportions.

[bdreason]

Not a bad list. My vote would go for:


Isiah Thomas

[Deuce Bigalow]

Baylor, Pettit, Mikan

Those are the three I'd be looking at. All belong above Barkley, Malone and Garnett in my opinion. Of course this list will skew towards the modern players because of the natural bias towards familiarity. However, at least at this point a case can be made for the likes of those three PF's over those three all-time greats who were born before WWII. (Except Mikan who has a top-10 resume and top eight impact and should not be left out of a top ten unless you're excluding the pre-shotclock era.)

I agree, Mikan and Petitt should already have been voted in
but you need to pick one for it to be a vote :D

[WillC]

Elgin Baylor not in the top 17?

Interesting......

[Bernie Nips]

David Robinson

[FF1]

This list is a freaking joke if D-Rob is #18.

[FF1]

and lol @ Pauk posting regular season stats and then saying it's a "fact" that D-Rob was better. Do you know what "fact" means?

Dirk's post seasons numbers are better across the board and Dirk has already played more games.. meaning he has kept a higher level a play for a longer amount of time than D-Rob.

D-Rob won with the greatest PF of all time. Dirk won with Jason Terry.

[FF1]

Dmavs41 did you vote? Didn't see it...

[Bernie Nips]

and lol @ Pauk posting regular season stats and then saying it's a "fact" that D-Rob was better. Do you know what "fact" means?

Dirk's post seasons numbers are better across the board and Dirk has already played more games.. meaning he has kept a higher level a play for a longer amount of time than D-Rob.

D-Rob won with the greatest PF of all time. Dirk won with Jason Terry.

And we all know how terribly Jason Terry played in the Finals...

...wait, what? Sometimes average players play out of their minds? No way! What'll you tell me next, Cedric Maxwell has a Finals MVP?

[FF1]

I don't remember saying Jason Terry played horribly. I did imply that he's not comparable to the GOAT PF, though.

[coin24]

PIPPEN.


How are Malone and Garnett better than Pippen.... just:facepalm


And no, Lebron has no place in the top 20 you have got to be kidding me:banghead:

[MichaelCheazley]

Wow at the overrating of dirk. IF the championship does it wheres rick barry?Isiah?Drob?

[MichaelCheazley]

PIPPEN.


How are Malone and Garnett better than Pippen.... just:facepalm


And no, Lebron has no place in the top 20 you have got to be kidding me:banghead:
Classic example of someone who is like 18 and didn't actually watch the NBA back then trying to sound knowledgeable. IF that's not the case you must be joking...

[FF1]

Wow at the overrating of dirk. IF the championship does it wheres rick barry?Isiah?Drob?

Sigh..


It's NOT just the championship.

Haters before he won a ring: "Ya ya.... He's 1 of 4 players all time to average 25/10 in the playoffs... he's one of the greatest scorers all time, extremely clutch..... but he can't win the big one. If he did, that would change everything because that's all he's missing."

Haters after he won a ring: "LOL ya'll are overrating Dirk. He wasn't even that good until this year! Get some perspective!"

Almost TEN YEARS AGO he was sweeping KG in the playoffs by dropping 33 points 16 rebounds a game. He's killed it year after year after year and all he was missing was the hardware. Now he's got it, as the only all star on the team. He deserves every ounce of credit he's getting.

Dirk's playoff stats for his entire CAREER:
25.9 ppg, 10.4 rebounds, 2.6 assists, on 46.3%/38%/89% shooting, 24.7 PER

[MichaelCheazley]

Sigh..

It's NOT just the championship.
Ok

Haters before he won a ring: "Ya ya.... He's 1 of 4 players all time to average 25/10 in the playoffs...

Wait till hes past his prime. I would think that many of the qualifying player's numbers have been dragged down due to later years of their career. Impressive numbers nonetheless.


he's one of the greatest scorers all time, extremely clutch..... but he can't win the big one. If he did, things would be different because that's all he's that's all he's missing."
What will you rate lebron if he wins a championship while wade and bosh stink it up?Also basketball is played on more than one side of the court. Dirk happens to be average-below average when it comes to that side

Haters after he won a ring: "LOL ya'll are overrating Dirk. He wasn't even that good until this year! Get some perspective!"
I'm not a hater. Im a fan of his since his showing vs the heat in 2006. I just dont see how hes better than some players not on the list.


People are acting like Dirk wasn't good until this year.
No people have acknowledged his greatness but like to troll (like with bron..choke this choke that) His numbers,playoffs/season and mvp dont lie

Almost TEN YEARS AGO he was sweeping KG in the playoffs by dropping 33 points 16 rebounds a game.
He also got swept by an 8th seed. Your point?


He's killed it year after year after year and all he was missing was the hardware. Now he's got it, as the only all star on the team. He deserves every ounce of credit he's getting.

Youre the one discrediting his team mates. Dont act like marion(d'ing up lebron and going off also),chandler(gobbling up rebounds and preventing penetration) and terry(rediculous clutch shots winning them the closing game) didn't absolutely kill the heat. LEt alone kidd and barea who both did excellent jobs.

[FF1]

Sigh..


What will you rate lebron if he wins a championship while wade and bosh stink it up?
LeBron is incredible except for the fact that he has sucked in the Finals. (and some other big series). If he goes back to the finals, kills it and carries a struggling Wade, you betcha I'll rate him up there.


I'm not a hater. Im a fan of his since his showing vs the heat in 2006. I just dont see how hes better than some players not on the list.
He was killing it before 2006. 5 years before that, actually. His body of work is what makes him so great. I posted Dirk's playoff numbers. Compare him to KG. Compare him to Robinson. Hell, compare him to Malone. You don't see how an argument could be made?

He also got swept by an 8th seed. Your point?
He got destroyed in that series, but that was the exception not the rule. Even in the 06 Miami series, although he played bad, people forget that in two of the losses Dirk hit a "game winner" only to have Wade come back and make some FTs as time expired. The Warrior series was a different animal like I said.. an outlier. My point was that people make it seem like Dirk is suddenly a new player.. I'm saying he was doing it as early as 10 years ago. People forget that.

Youre the one discrediting his team mates. Dont act like marion(d'ing up lebron and going off also),chandler(gobbling up rebounds and preventing penetration) and terry(rediculous clutch shots winning them the closing game) didn't absolutely kill the heat. LEt alone kidd and barea who both did excellent jobs.
It's obviously a team game, and Terry did play above his normal level (after game 2.. he was bad the first two games) but Dirk carried them in a way that many people said was impossible "you need 2+ all-stars, blah blah blah"... While Dirk dropped 10+ points in almost every 4th quarter and carried this team to a ring. When you add that to his career stats and accomplishments, he deserves Top 20 (Top 18) IMO.


--

[MichaelCheazley]

He was killing it before 2006. 5 years before that, actually. His body of work is what makes him so great. I posted Dirk's playoff numbers. Compare him to KG. Compare him to Robinson. Hell, compare him to Malone. You don't see how an argument could be made?

Robinson and Kg's Impact on offence were almost on par. More so with KG prime. But they are both all time great defenders... Malone was also a beast(dirty ass one). He might now have a ring but he was also good offensively(although heavily helped by Stockton).Getting merked by MJ is nothing to be ashamed of. Dirk would be ring less if prime mj was in the league and so would most of this decades players. But there are arguments for sure.


He got destroyed in that series, but that was the exception not the rule. My point was that people make it seem like Dirk is suddenly a new player.. I'm saying he was doing it as early as 10 years ago. People forget that.

Lets just say he had his ups and downs in the playoffs. And with the "what have you done for me recently" mentality in sports if your hot now your fresh in peoples minds and tend to be rated a little higher.



It's obviously a team game, and Terry did play above his normal level (after game 2.. he was bad the first two games) but Dirk carried them in a way that many people said was impossible "you need 2+ all-stars, blah blah blah"... While Dirk dropped 10+ points in almost every 4th quarter and carried this team to a ring. When you add that to his career stats and accomplishments, he deserves Top 20 (Top 18) IMO.

Refer to rick Barry. Hes not on the list. And the players might not be current all stars but they are former all stars albeit past their prime. These type of players have an impact normal role players don't. They are capable of stepping up and can be extremely useful in the playoffs. Refer to '06 heat where Alonzo(Demolishing Mavs offence),Toine(4's keeping us in games or extending leads) and GP(game winner) helped greatly.

[FF1]

Robinson and Kg's Impact on offence were almost on par. More so with KG prime. But they are both all time great defenders... Malone was also a beast(dirty ass one). He might now have a ring but he was also good offensively(although heavily helped by Stockton).Getting merked by MJ is nothing to be ashamed of. Dirk would be ring less if prime mj was in the league and so would most of this decades players. But there are arguments for sure.
Dirk is NOT as bad of a defender as people say he is. I've always said this.. People say Dirk > KG on O but KG >>>>> Dirk on D. Why did Dirk always score more, then? Why didn't KG drop 60 a game? Did Raef Lafrentz help D really help that much? And Malone was not that good of a defender and, like you said, he had Stockton on offense. I'm not saying it's a proven fact that Dirk is better than KG and Malone but IMO Playoff Dirk > Playoff Malone and stats make it arguable.

Robinson was a good defender but he got punked by Hakeem just like Dirk got punked by Duncan. Besides Duncan, who can you name that has really owned Dirk? The Mavs problems on D have ALWAYS (until this year) been 2s and 3s, not 4s.


Lets just say he had his ups and downs in the playoffs. And with the "what have you done for me recently" mentality in sports if your hot now your fresh in peoples minds and tend to be rated a little higher.
His downs include: 07 Warriors. Outlier, horrible. 06 Finals.. not as bad as people made it seem. 05 round 1. Besides that, Dirk has always been a beast.



--

[DMAVS41]

--

The standards for Dirk are absurdly high. So many of those other guys had awful playoff performances.

Hell, many of the top 10 players ever had years and series they were terrible. Dirk is held to such a high standard its a joke. Not to mention all the while never having teams nearly as good as most of the other guys he played against this era....

Its so funny how perception plays such a big role in this stuff. You give a guy like Kobe the kind of coaching and supporting casts that Dirk has had....and you'd see his fans constantly bitch and moan about how terrible his teams were. I'd love to see Barkley or Malone or KG try to consistently win with Jason Terry as the 2nd best player. Or win titles playing run and gun nellie ball. It just wouldn't happen. And I'd love to see it in the era of shaq/kobe and duncan.

The Lakers in the playoffs this year actually represent something very similar to the Mavs in recent years. Mavs supporting cast routinely did not step up. Kidd was pretty much terrible from 08 to 10. Terry was pretty much awful from 07 to 10. We didn't get anything out of the center position. We didn't have a legit 2nd option. We didn't have many quality perimeter defenders....the Mavs just weren't/aren't nearly as "talented" or "stacked" as people want to claim. Its really not close. I love seeing guys like Walker and Stack and Jamison listed as if having those guys makes your team stacked. And that isn't even bringing up that Dirk has suffered from being surrounded by not only lesser players than the true title favorites...but also the wrong type of players.

Funny how the Mavs finally get a quality defensive minded center...and finally get some production out of the supporting cast...and we win the title the first year. Dirk plays some all time great clutch playoff basketball and leads a team to one of the most improbable titles we've seen.

[RRR3]

The standards for Dirk are absurdly high. So many of those other guys had awful playoff performances.

Hell, many of the top 10 players ever had years and series they were terrible. Dirk is held to such a high standard its a joke. Not to mention all the while never having teams nearly as good as most of the other guys he played against this era....

Its so funny how perception plays such a big role in this stuff. You give a guy like Kobe the kind of coaching and supporting casts that Dirk has had....and you'd see his fans constantly bitch and moan about how terrible his teams were. I'd love to see Barkley or Malone or KG try to consistently win with Jason Terry as the 2nd best player. Or win titles playing run and gun nellie ball. It just wouldn't happen. And I'd love to see it in the era of shaq/kobe and duncan.

The Lakers in the playoffs this year actually represent something very similar to the Mavs in recent years. Mavs supporting cast routinely did not step up. Kidd was pretty much terrible from 08 to 10. Terry was pretty much awful from 07 to 10. We didn't get anything out of the center position. We didn't have a legit 2nd option. We didn't have many quality perimeter defenders....the Mavs just weren't/aren't nearly as "talented" or "stacked" as people want to claim. Its really not close. I love seeing guys like Walker and Stack and Jamison listed as if having those guys makes your team stacked. And that isn't even bringing up that Dirk has suffered from being surrounded by not only lesser players than the true title favorites...but also the wrong type of players.

Funny how the Mavs finally get a quality defensive minded center...and finally get some production out of the supporting cast...and we win the title the first year. Dirk plays some all time great clutch playoff basketball and leads a team to one of the most improbable titles we've seen.

Stop whining about Dirk having high standards. The standards he is held to are nothing compared to LeBron's.

[Deuce Bigalow]

This list is a freaking joke if D-Rob is #18.

Mikan and Petitt better be top 20, they have accomplished too much to be ranked over the players you guys are voting for now

George Mikan
5

[FF1]

Stop whining about Dirk having high standards. The standards he is held to are nothing compared to LeBron's.

Dirk doesn't have "The Chosen 1" tattoo'd on his back.

Plus LeBron has had two really embarrassing playoff endings in a row and is still ranked #1 in the NBA by almost every media outlet. When Dirk had an embarrassing playoff ending, it bumped him off the radar completely. Give me a break.

[MichaelCheazley]

Dirk is NOT as bad of a defender as people say he is. I said he was towards the averageI've always said this..


People say Dirk > KG on O but KG >>>>> Dirk on D. Why did Dirk always score more, then?Less energy used on defensive side

IMO Playoff Dirk > Playoff Malone and stats make it arguable.
I can live with it. Other points are fair I guess


Robinson was a good defender but he got punked by HakeemSo? you act like 90% of the centers in the history of the nba wont. just like Dirk got punked by Duncan. Besides Duncan, who can you name that has really owned Dirk?The people he is matched with him are usually given the job to stop him. The league today is dominated by perimeter players less so than dominant pf scorers although he has faced some good guys too (LA,Pau,KG,Amare). Some have done a good job containing him but hes usually paired with a defensive C to cover the more offensively threatening frontcourt player. Like in 2005 Stat did fairly well vs the mavs.I also remember diaw going off the year after? But STAT played partly C that year


Good points though.Arguing with someone who knows their stuff is good. You sir know your stuff.

[Jacks3]

lol

Give KG/Barkley/D-Rob the type of talent Dork has over the past decade and they'd probably have more than 1 measly title. Why? Because they're just flat-out better players and it's not really close. Has Dork ever been as dominant as KG was in 2004 or Chuck in 1990? Nope. Not really that close.

lol @ anybody who thinks he's top 20 ever. :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Stop whining about Dirk having high standards. The standards he is held to are nothing compared to LeBron's.

I think Lebron's standards are absurdly high as well. Higher than Dirk's for sure.

Not sure the relevance. I never said Dirk has the highest standards ever.

At the same time though....Dirk also never lost in the Finals with the kind of team that Lebron just had. Dirk never came close to playing as poorly as Lebron just did in the Finals either.

I can't imagine what people would be saying about Dirk if he ever played like that in the WCF or Finals...LOL.

[MichaelCheazley]

Dirk doesn't have "The Chosen 1" tattoo'd on his back.
Damn...IF he did that would be hilarious.

[RRR3]

I think Lebron's standards are absurdly high as well. Higher than Dirk's for sure.

Not sure the relevance. I never said Dirk has the highest standards ever.

At the same time though....Dirk also never lost in the Finals with the kind of team that Lebron just had. Dirk never came close to playing as poorly as Lebron just did in the Finals either.

I can't imagine what people would be saying about Dirk if he ever played like that in the WCF or Finals...LOL.

They wouldn't be as rabid as they are for LeBron, I can tell you that much for sure. Dirk lost in the first round as the number one seed, which is worse than what LeBron just did no matter how you slice it, unless again LeBron is held to a much higher standard than Dirk.

[SyRyanYang]

John Havlicek

[FF1]

So? you act like 90% of the centers in the history of the nba wont.
I guess that was my point. Both of their weakest moments on D came against two of the best players ever (Hakeem, Duncan).

The people he is matched with him are usually given the job to stop him. The league today is dominated by perimeter players less so than dominant pf scorers although he has faced some good guys too (LA,Pau,KG,Amare). Some have done a good job containing him but hes usually paired with a defensive C to cover the more offensively threatening frontcourt player. Like in 2005 Stat did fairly well vs the mavs.I also remember diaw going off the year after? But STAT played partly C that year
What I'm saying is that people always point out Dirk's "poor D" when they talk about him... and then I think about all the Mavs playoff success and failure. When they lose, they lose to the Wade's, Melo, Chris Paul, Everyone on the Warriors lol, and Tim Duncan. (I guess you could throw Chris Webber in there, but screw that lol.. I'll blame Nash's D on Bibby). Dirk's D hasn't really cost them anything. On the other hand, they've been really successful against team's with good PFs (Malone, KG, Duncan, Gasol swept twice, Bosh, etc). Dirk's D hasn't really cost them anything yet it's always brought up as a huge factor when rating him below Malone, KG, etc.

Good points though.Arguing with someone who knows their stuff is good. You sir know your stuff.
You too!


--

[miles berg]

Gotta be Dirk.

[Jacks3]

LeBron James. He's just a better player than Dork, and it's not even close.

[FF1]

They wouldn't be as rabid as they are for LeBron, I can tell you that much for sure. Dirk lost in the first round as the number one seed, which is worse than what LeBron just did no matter how you slice it, unless again LeBron is held to a much higher standard than Dirk.

You lost me. After Dirk lost to the Warriors in 07, almost everyone dismissed him as an elite player and labeled him a huge choker. I don't know anyone who had him in the top 5 anymore. It took him 5 years to get his reputation back, only after he won a championship.

LeBron, on the other hand, has played really poorly in his past two playoff losses (this year on a really stacked team up 2-1 in the finals) and ESPN and other outlets still rank him as the anonymous #1.

So what I'm saying is Dirk's playoff failures made him drop off in the public's eye a lot faster and harder than LeBrons.

You may be referring to the hate he gets on these boards.. but it's an internet message board. He's a lot more polarizing than Dirk, a lot more popular.. so he's going to get a lot more attention one way or the other.

[jacobgoindum]

George Mikan

nobody else has a case

[DaPerceive]

lol

Give KG/Barkley/D-Rob the type of talent Dork has over the past decade and they'd probably have more than 1 measly title. Why? Because they're just flat-out better players and it's not really close. Has Dork ever been as dominant as KG was in 2004 or Chuck in 1990? Nope. Not really that close.

lol @ anybody who thinks he's top 20 ever. :roll:
lol if you think people actually take your opinion seriously.

[Jacks3]

Barkley/KG/D-Rob>Dork. Deal with it DaPerception/Swagerr/etc

[MichaelCheazley]

Barkley/KG/D-Rob>Dork. Deal with it DaPerception/Swagerr/etc
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e65/llepidemicll/Walks_across_room.gif

[Odinn]

As for peaks, LeBron James&David Robinson are greater than Garnett&Nowitzki. And Garnett got the 17th spot which it's truly high for him IMO.

After Karl Malone, the flaw of people's criteria has just showed itself.

People set their criterias for top 10. Not for 20 or 25. There are 16 players who can be listed in top 10. And their part is done. For example you can argue about Moses Malone can be listed at top 10. Or if you put more weight than usual to longevity, Karl Malone can be listed at top 10. But you can not list LeBron, DRob, Garnett or Nowitzki as top 10 ever.

Also there is oldies debate. How can you rank Mikan or Baylor or Pettit? Russell is the goat champion. Chamberlain, West, Big O, these 3 had monstrous numbers. But what about Mikan? Baylor? Pettit?

I think it's more accurate to say "Mikan, Pettit, Baylor, Havlicek, Zeke, DRob, LeBron, Nowitzki, Garnett belong to 16-25 range".

That's why I gave up. I won't vote.

[Jacks3]

#25 is a good spot for Dork, yes.

[DaPerceive]

There is simply no reason to have Robinson above Dirk and below KG. Career wise and in the all-time rankings I would say it should be like this with these there....

1. Dirk
2. Garnett
3. Robinson

Robinson was the best in primes/peak, but he simply accomplished the least.

[inclinerator]

tony parker

[Deuce Bigalow]

14 - Dirk Nowitzki
12 - David Robinson
6 - John Havlicek
5 - Lebron James
3 - George Mikan
1 - John Stockton
1 - Isiah Thomas
1 - Scottie Pippen

Total - 43 votes

[32Dayz]

I'll give Dirk my vote if its between him and DRob.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I'll give Dirk my vote if its between him and DRob.

I don't count votes from morons like you

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't count votes from morons like you

Then what was the point of this whole poll ?

There were others who do the same B.S. he does and you counted their votes. And Dirk is more than a fair vote, espically if it's a tie breaker (I'm not voting by the way, just gave my 2 cents.)

[32Dayz]

I don't count votes from morons like you

No... please... please count my vote on this all important poll!!!

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Dave3]

I don't count votes from morons like you
But you count Alphawolf's and Jacks' and other trolls. Interesting they all have a favourite player in common. I sense a little bias in the poll maker...:rolleyes:

[Jacks3]

Dave3 the rep whore calling anyone else a troll? Oh the ironing.

[FF1]

I don't count votes from morons like you

I wasn't aware that was how it worked...

[32Dayz]

Deuce Juggalo is no different from the other Ultra Kobe Homers he just doesn't openly troll on Kobe's behalf as often as some of the others do.

He will stay :mad: cause I dont ride on Kobe's jock strap. :violin:

I dont even have a problem with Kobe I just rate him fairly and unbiasedly. :applause:

[DMAVS41]

Dirk

[Deuce Bigalow]

Deuce Juggalo is no different from the other Ultra Kobe Homers he just doesn't openly troll on Kobe's behalf as often as some of the others do.

He will stay :mad: cause I dont ride on Kobe's jock strap. :violin:

why are you still posting here?

[Dave3]

Dave3 the rep whore calling anyone else a troll? Oh the ironing.
THE IRONING!! THE HORRIBLE IRONING!! :cry: :cry: :cry:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_adEf50WPIwg/TCHaMNFWYSI/AAAAAAAAAAM/At2mJbVvc0A/S1600-R/ist2_2710871-ironing-incl-jpeg%5B1%5D.jpg

[32Dayz]

why are you still posting here?

Because I can?

Your the one who said you'd count Votes from all posters who participated and now your bullshitting and just counting whatever posts you like or only from certain posters. :facepalm

:roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

THE IRONING!! THE HORRIBLE IRONING!! :cry: :cry: :cry:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_adEf50WPIwg/TCHaMNFWYSI/AAAAAAAAAAM/At2mJbVvc0A/S1600-R/ist2_2710871-ironing-incl-jpeg%5B1%5D.jpg

:roll:

btw Jacks its "irony"

[Legends66NBA7]

Dirk

Shocker !

[Deuce Bigalow]

Because I can?

Your the one who said you'd count Votes from all posters who participated and now your bullshitting and just counting whatever posts you like or only from certain posters. :roll:

nope, just not counting yours

[Legends66NBA7]

nope, just not counting yours

That's not fair man.

Whatever you have against him that Dirk pick isn't a troll vote at all. It counts.

[Deuce Bigalow]

That's not fair man.

Whatever you have against him that Dirk pick isn't a troll vote at all. It counts.

Dont worry, Dirk is going to win this anyways (hes up 13-12 over D-Rob)

[32Dayz]

nope, just not counting yours

Proof?

:applause:

Stay mad Bro.

http://i42.tinypic.com/21kiidv.jpg

Thats for the support Legends66 (repped) but its cool, let him run it however he wants.

Yea its not fair but who expects a kid with his sort of intelligence to act fair in the first place.

[Dave3]

Dont worry, Dirk is going to win this anyways (hes up 13-12 over D-Rob)
That's not the point. It's the idea. You count votes from trolls who like the same player you do, but not trolls who dislike him. That's straight up personal bias, and it makes your polls lack legitimacy. It's not "ISH's" if not every user on ISH gets the same right.

When people said "don't count Alphawolf's" you said "Jordan's going to win anyways" too. If Dirk is going to win anyways, why not include his vote?

[Deuce Bigalow]

That's not the point. It's the idea. You count votes from trolls who like the same player you do, but not trolls who dislike him. That's straight up personal bias, and it makes your polls lack legitimacy. It's not "ISH's" if not every user on ISH gets the same right.

When people said "don't count Alphawolf's" you said "Jordan's going to win anyways" too. If Dirk is going to win anyways, why not include his vote?

whats the difference between alphawolf and pauk?
their both the king nutriders of both stars

[Jacks3]

:roll:

btw Jacks its "irony"
its a joke. :facepalm

[Dave3]

whats the difference between alphawolf and pauk?
their both the king nutriders of both stars
Doesn't matter. You count one you should count the other. It's not like counting Pauk balances all the ones you counted from many other Kobe trolls. In the end you've still counted the votes of way more trolls for Kobe than you're willing to for those that hate him. That's still bias.

[Jacks3]

im a cocksucking rep whore!!!!!!!!!!!
what a phagett.

[Legends66NBA7]

whats the difference between alphawolf and pauk?
their both the king nutriders of both stars

The sad thing is while my time here and I have been reading a lot of their posts from time to time:

I don't even believe that alphawolf is a Kobe fan. Rather, he's a Jordan fan out to make Kobe fans look bad or even worse.

Same thing with pauk, a Kobe fan out to make LeBron fans look bad or even worse.

Oh, well conspiracy...

[Collie]

I don't really find it ridiculous to put Dirk in the top 20. He's one of the few players in history to actually LEAD a team to a championship (seriously, how many guys have actually been the alpha dog on a championship), and his credentials are top notch - easily up there with just about anyone.

I'll go ahead and vote for Dirk.

[Round Mound]

Candidates:
George Mikan
Bob Pettit
Elgin Baylor
John Havlicek
Isiah Thomas
Rick Barry
David Robinson
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwyane Wade
Lebron James
Patrick Ewing
Scottie Pippen
John Stockton
Steve Nash
Elvin Hayes
Allen Iverson
Clyde Drexler
Bob Cousy
Jason Kidd
Pete Maravich
Gary Payton

Between Those 2

[G.O.A.T]

I don't really find it ridiculous to put Dirk in the top 20. He's one of the few players in history to actually LEAD a team to a championship (seriously, how many guys have actually been the alpha dog on a championship),.

Titles as teams unquestioned most valuable player and leader

Russell - 10 (1959-66, 68-69)
Jordan - 6 (1991-93, 96-98)
Mikan - 6* (1948-50, 52-54)
Duncan - 4 (1999, 03, 05, 07)
Shaq - 3 (2000-02)
Bird - 3 (1981, 84, 86)
Magic - 2 (1987-88)
Isiah - 2 (1989-90)
Hakeem - 2 (1994-95)
Kobe - 2 (2009-10)
Kareem - 2 (1971, 80)
Doctor J - 2** (1974, 76)
Schayes - 1 (1955)
Pettit - 1 (1958)
Wilt - 1 (1967)
Reed - 1 (1970)
Frazier - 1 (1973)
Barry - 1 (1975)
Walton - 1 (1977)
Moses - 1 (1983)
Garnett - 1 (2008)
Nowitzki - 1 (2011)
Fulks - 1*** (1947)


*1 BAA, 1 NBL, 4 NBA
** ABA
*** BAA

23 guys have done it, 21 in the NBA, 11 more than once.

[bdreason]

ummm I think I'll vote for the 2nd best PG of all-time.



Isiah Thomas.