Is Kobe a better passer than LeBron?

[hammer2010]

I know everyone keeps talking about LeBron's passing ability and vision. But what about Kobe? I know he's a scorer through and through so he doesn't look to create for his teammates as much but is Kobe actually the better passer? I personally think Kobe is the better passer and has better creativity especially around the basket. LeBron seems to be the whipping bullets cross court or gunning no looks to teammates on cuts type passer.

Kobe is more creative, especially on the break and around the basket after slashing.

What does ISH think?

KOBE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ye3D2nagUs

LEBRON
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr3NNGL_fg

[L8kersfan222]

Lebron turned Chris Bosh into a 6'11'' Mo Williams
Kobe turned Pau Gasol into a champion.




and it ain't even close.

[Yung D-Will]

Not even close

[hammer2010]

Not even close

Who's better?

[Yung D-Will]

Who's better?
Lebron

[hammer2010]

You are just looking at stats. I'm asking who is better in the art of passing. Who is more skilled at passing basically.

[scm5]

Kobe is a more creative passer. He makes some amazing plays, but his court awareness isn't what Lebron's is.

Kobe will draw in a lot of defenders and make a spectacular pass to an open teammate.

Lebron will see a play waiting to happen, and make it happen with the right pass.

That's the difference in their passing abilities. OR actually, passing tendencies. They both do things each other can do, but this is what they tend to do.

[kumquat]

Most Kobe's assists are within the triangle. Most of Lebrons are from fastbreaks or pounding at the top of the key waiting for a cutter.

[Yung D-Will]

You are just looking at stats. I'm asking who is better in the art of passing. Who is more skilled at passing basically.
No I'm not Ive seen both of them play for the last decade and Lebron is clearly the better passer

[hammer2010]

I've seen both these guys play live too, 3 times Kobe and twice LeBron. And seeing them in person even, Kobe seemed like the more creative with the ball and the more creative passer. LeBron's good too tho, don't get me wrong. He's somewhat of a unique specimen. I just prefer Kobe's creativity makes him better at the skill of passing. Just wanted to know what ISH thought.

[OmniStrife]

It's hard to tell, both have shown brilliant skill in the passing dept.
But it's quite obvious who's the more willing passer between them. :lol

[donald_trump]

shawn bradley was a better scorer than kobe and lebron. you gotta stop just looking at the stats.

[Sakkreth]

This gotta be joke thread...

[Kyle_korver]

REALLY?? IS THIS A DEBATE??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqcgy6xLrEM

END THREAD:banghead:

[pauk]

hahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahaha
hahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahaha
hahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahaha
http://www.gifsoup.com/view6/2423850/selfish-kobe-o.gif
hahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaah ahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahh aahahahahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahaha hahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahah
http://i56.tinypic.com/2m0dfo.gifhahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahaha hahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahaha
vhahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahaahahaahahahaa hhahaahhaa
http://i52.tinypic.com/2mpx1e9.gifhahahahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahah ahahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahah aahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaahahahaahhaha ahhaahahahahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahah ahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaahaha haahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaah ahaha

[ClutchBucketz]

Kobe is probably the more creative passer and can probably make some passes out of nothing but as far as flat out passing skill i'd say Lebron. And if i had to choose a passing only point guard out of the 2 of them i'd take lebron.

[Yung D-Will]

hahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahaha
hahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahaha
hahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahaha
hahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaah ahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahh aahahahahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahaha hahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaahahahaa hhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahaha hahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahaha ahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaa hhaahahahahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahaha hahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaahahah aahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaaha haha

hahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahaah ahahaahhahaahhaahahaha
vhahahahahahaahahahaahhahaahhaahahaha

^ For once he's not just being a homer, this thread is really lol worthy.

[pauk]

Kobe is probably the more creative passer and can probably make some passes out of nothing but as far as flat out passing skill i'd say Lebron. And if i had to choose a passing only point guard out of the 2 of them i'd take lebron.

hahahahahahhhahaahha

[knightfall88]

Well its natural to pass more when you can't do much yourself

[madmax]

Well its natural to pass more when you can't do much yourself

LMAO...this thread is getting better by a minute:roll:

[Papaya Petee]

wtffff not even close.

[pauk]

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/kobepassing.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/kobedetention.jpg

[knightfall88]

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/kobepassing.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/kobedetention.jpg

lmao why is there a total of 6 people on Lebrons team?!

[pauk]

lmao why is there a total of 6 people on Lebrons team?!

the one to the far right is the coach yelling instructions.... :lol

[boyle777]

Saying that Kobe is a more 'creative' passer doesn't make him the better passer. They both can regularly produce flashy passes that could be considered creative. Lebron is more likely of the two to pass to an open team mate for a shot, which yes may be a simple pass, but is the right play. Doesn't have to look great, just get results. Lebron will consistently get his team mates involved and is proven to improve those around him. Kobe as great as he is, obviously goes for a lot of hero plays (not only in clutch time) on his own, can't think of any recent plays where Kobe has passed to a team mate to try and win the game. Kobe is a scorer, not a playmaker. Lebron is a playmaker. He is the better passer. Isn't really an argument.

[RRR3]

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/kobepassing.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/kobedetention.jpg
:roll: :roll: :roll: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[RRR3]

I know everyone keeps talking about LeBron's passing ability and vision. But what about Kobe? I know he's a scorer through and through so he doesn't look to create for his teammates as much but is Kobe actually the better passer? I personally think Kobe is the better passer and has better creativity especially around the basket. LeBron seems to be the whipping bullets cross court or gunning no looks to teammates on cuts type passer.

Kobe is more creative, especially on the break and around the basket after slashing.

What does ISH think?

KOBE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ye3D2nagUs

LEBRON
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr3NNGL_fg


http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/6/15/heeheehawhaw128580646144869777.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/1ptcn5.jpg

[rodman91]

http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/10/11064/11330493.jpg

[pauk]

http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/10/11064/11330493.jpg

:lol

[G-Funk]

Lebron is a more willing passer... I still think hes slightly better though.

[HylianNightmare]

gotta be lebron, kobe has made some great passes but lebron is much better overall in terms of passing game

[ACCBaller1403]

Kobe is an underrated passer for sure but better than Lebron? Not a chance. Outside of Bird I haven't seen a better passing SF.

[G-Funk]

Most Kobe's assists are within the triangle. Most of Lebrons are from fastbreaks or pounding at the top of the key waiting for a cutter.

yeah i think if Kobe played outside the triangle. He would average about 6.5 assist. Still not enought to be considered better...To me the differnce is that Kobe lets his assist come to him and lebron looks for the assist. Witch is why i dont see Kobe racking up 7.5assist like Bron.

[amfirst]

I know everyone keeps talking about LeBron's passing ability and vision. But what about Kobe? I know he's a scorer through and through so he doesn't look to create for his teammates as much but is Kobe actually the better passer? I personally think Kobe is the better passer and has better creativity especially around the basket. LeBron seems to be the whipping bullets cross court or gunning no looks to teammates on cuts type passer.

Kobe is more creative, especially on the break and around the basket after slashing.

What does ISH think?

KOBE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ye3D2nagUs

LEBRON
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr3NNGL_fg

C'mon we all know LeBron learns his passing style from watching Kobe. he even says it himself. That's why their passes look identical from the spot on the court to the motion of the pass. LeBron is just a more willing passer.

Kobe is more of creative passer if u ask me and less willing to pass. Probably because of the triangle system and the fact that Lakers don't have a good catch and shoot type of player which will help rack up assist.

[L8kersfan222]

Lebron, pass to wade is his signature move.

[RRR3]

Lol @ people acting like this is even a debate.

[rodman91]

Lol @ people acting like this is even a debate.

But he has best no look pass ever.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Milky5/KOBEOWNED.gif

[RRR3]

But he has best no look pass ever.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Milky5/KOBEOWNED.gif
DA GAWD!!!:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Clippersfan86]

But he has best no look pass ever.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Milky5/KOBEOWNED.gif

I'll one up you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI8_X7gTXTk

Better no look back pass by Kobe.

[RRR3]

When it comes to creativity and flash, it da GAWD not even close. But Lebrick is better at threading passes
Get a life kaipoo. You're so butthurt LeBron left your shitty team you switched to slurping on kobes dick.

[andgar923]

This reminds me of the "Kobe is a great defender when he wants too" arguments.

Even some Laker fans have admitted that Bron is a more willing passer, so how is this even an argument?

If 'flash>> substance' is the argument people are making, then Rafer Alston >>> Stockton.

Oh.... oh.. .I got another one for you Kobeholics....

"When Kobe makes his shots, he's better than MJ."

Or more of the classic Kobeholic defensive arguments:

"But he was young back then, so that doesn't count."

"That's because he shot more 3pt shots."

"If he didn't have Shaq..."

[RRR3]

"Dis niqqa RR3 hella fvckin mad doe"

the fvck outta here phaggit
Not as mad as you are that lebron left the Cleveland cavaqueers. :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not even in the same realm. Willing or not, Kobe just doesn't have the court vision Bron does. Pound for pound (height for height), Lebron is perhaps the closest we've seen to Magic as far as passing/setting up teammates goes.

[Bigsmoke]

Lebron, pass to wade is his signature move.

Lebron averaged 8.6 assists a game when he was still in Cleveland

WTF @ Kobe being a more "creative" passer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVPKahvD3WY&feature=fvst
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZXS8dPp86k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B1Tq1q7BcA

did yall guys just started watching basketball overnight?

[andgar923]

Lebron averaged 8.6 assists a game when he was still in Cleveland

WTF @ Kobe being a more "creative" passer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVPKahvD3WY&feature=fvst
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZXS8dPp86k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B1Tq1q7BcA

did yall guys just started watching basketball overnight?

Naw... Kobeholics didn't just start watching basketball, they've been watching ball since the 2k mark, its just that they spend it watching Kobe 98% of the time.

Now... I've been very clear and adamant in stating that Kobe is a superior scorer hands down. But Bron beats Kobe in this area of the game, and one of the reasons why many say he's a better player.

[rodman91]

I'll one up you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI8_X7gTXTk

Better no look back pass by Kobe.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/VS/z%20g%20Trick/Hit%20The%20Back/cp3tokb2.gif

that must be kobe's signature.

[pegasus]

Lebron is a more willing passer, I'll give him that. I mean just look at the last year's finals.

He knew his team needed his elite level passing, so he turned on the pass-first mentality, and then BAM! Or should I say, PUFF?

[7_cody]

LeBron is easily the more willing passer, and he also clearly possesses better passing skills. With that said, Kobe is an underrated passer. He can really pull of some nice passes with great accuracy and deception, often throwing no-look passes or perfectly timed bounced passes. He's also a great post-entry passer, which makes sense since he spent so many years playing with Shaq.

[pauk]

you are talking about this dude with the size & vision of Magic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPr3NNGL_fg

you are talking about the best passing Non-PG in NBA history, a dude who has the highest assist average by a non-PG, a dude who averaged the most assists in NBA history by a Non-PG (8.6 APG)... a dude who when started pointguard for 15 games in 2009-10 averaged 12.1 assists a game (and still managed to get his 30 ppg)... a dude who averaged 10.3 assists a game during 30 games in 2009-10... you are talking about this dude who proved over and over he could average at least 10 assists a game if he started PG, who could dominate the PG position if he wanted to...

all jokes aside... kobe is not a bad passer.............. but come on?

the only non-PG ever that was closest to Lebrons playmaking is Larry Bird...

[Jacks3]

Hes better than MJ, becasue hes easily the better player
True.

Anyway, Kobe is one of the best non-PG play-makers ever, but he's not better than LeBron. LeBron is the best play-making wing ever. :bowdown:

[Clippersfan86]

True.

Anyway, Kobe is one of the best non-PG play-makers ever, but he's not better than LeBron. LeBron is the best play-making wing ever. :bowdown:

Larry Bird says hi.

[jlip]

"I'd win, I'd win," Bryant said matter-of-factly. "That's what I do. One on one ... that’s easy for me, you know. Playing one on one is how I grew up playing; it’s like my thing. LeBron is more like a Magic Johnson; he’s a great passer and plays an all-around game. At the core of me, I’m a one-on-one player. I'd do that in my sleep."

--Kobe Bryant

http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2010/10/kobe-bryant-says-he-would-easily-beat-lebron-james-in-one-on-one.html

[Kensta]

From what I can see, LeBron is the better passer. Kobe's passing annoys me. Most of the time it's a jump pass, that always gets him in trouble.

[DaPerceive]

It's closer than what most people think. People don't realize Kobe plays in a system where his assist numbers are deflated.

[Rnbizzle]

It's closer than what most people think. People don't realize Kobe plays in a system where his assist numbers are deflated.
That's great, and Kobe will make a nice pass every now and again.. But Lebron will make the right pass 95% of the time. There are PGs in the league who are a lot less good at passing than Lebron.

[Clippersfan86]

That's great, and Kobe will make a nice pass every now and again.. But Lebron will make the right pass 95% of the time. There are PGs in the league who are a lot less good at passing than Lebron.

Lebron>Rose in terms of passing/playmaking. Really the only PG's above him are guys like Nash, CP3 and Deron.

[Rnbizzle]

Lebron>Rose in terms of passing/playmaking. Really the only PG's above him are guys like Nash, CP3 and Deron.
I'm a bulls fan and I agree with you.

[DaPerceive]

That's great, and Kobe will make a nice pass every now and again.. But Lebron will make the right pass 95% of the time. There are PGs in the league who are a lot less good at passing than Lebron.
Where did you come up with 95%? People are saying Lebron is a better passer because of his assists and that is pretty much it. Make a stat-less case and you guys probably can't come up with shit.

[knightfall88]

That's great, and Kobe will make a nice pass every now and again.. But Lebron will make the right pass 95% of the time. There are PGs in the league who are a lot less good at passing than Lebron.

Lebron makes the right pass 200% of time. Meaning he should be scoring but he is still passing.

[Rnbizzle]

Where did you come up with 95%? People are saying Lebron is a better passer because of his assists and that is pretty much it. Make a stat-less case and you guys probably can't come up with shit.
Watching games. Is something more people should do.

[Clippersfan86]

I'm a bulls fan and I agree with you.

:cheers: . People don't realize that averaging 8.6 apg on the Cavs without a second star was a freaking miracle. He shattered Bird's assist record for non PG's. It was amazing to watch.

[DaPerceive]

Watching games. Is something more people should do.
Sure, I watched the games, and I don't think Lebron is that much better of a passer. You guys are acting like the difference is between Steve Nash and Reggie Miller.

[dyna]

Passing Ability:
Lebron, T mac, Vince >>> Kobe

[Clippersfan86]

Passing Ability:
Lebron, T mac, Vince >>> Kobe

Lebron>Tmac=Kobe>Vince

[Droid101]

I say "Wow" at a higher percentage of Kobe's passes than I do at LeBron's.

LeBron does make a lot more passes than Kobe, though.

[abuC]

Kobe has made some spectacular passes, but it's more of him jumping into the air and passing the ball behind his back or doing a wrap around the defender pass.

LeBrons passes are more a case of "How did he see that guy", or passing to a spot before the guy even gets there, basically seeing the play before it even happens. He's a better passer than Kobe, I don't think it's even close either, only some of the PGs are better than him when it comes to that.

[Clippersfan86]

I say "Wow" at a higher percentage of Kobe's passes than I do at LeBron's.

LeBron does make a lot more passes than Kobe, though.

Kobe is a flashier, more risky player obviously. Lebron is a consistently better/superior passer.

[RRR3]

T-Mac was a better passer than Kobe. And lol @ people acting like LeBron doesn't make flashy passes :rolleyes: Also, LOL @ people saying the triangle is the reason Kobe doesn't get more assists. The year Phil Jackson left, Kobe averaged a GODLY 6.0 assists per game. DA GOAT PASSER!!!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Jacks3]

Kobe was a better play-maker than T-Mac.

6 APG in the triangle while playing with Snaq. :bowdown:

[hammer2010]

I think T-Mac and Vince were also better passers than LeBron. LeBron's too caught up in trying to be this 'great mythical play maker' in his own head. Anyone that knows basketball knows LeBron's not a great passer. He's good but not great not even very good.

I get the feeling that most of the posters on this board are 16 year olds or younger and don't know sht about basketball and have their minds made up for them through the general hype surrounding certain players.

To test this theory, I will ask all the people who said LeBron's a better passer this question.

Who is a better passer between LeBron and Penny?

[RRR3]

I think T-Mac and Vince were also better passers than LeBron. LeBron's too caught up in trying to be this 'great mythical play maker' in his own head. Anyone that knows basketball knows LeBron's not a great passer. He's good but not great not even very good.

I get the feeling that most of the posters on this board are 16 year olds or younger and don't know sht about basketball and have their minds made up for them through the general hype surrounding certain players.

To test this theory, I will ask all the people who said LeBron's a better passer this question.

Who is a better passer between LeBron and Penny?
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[hammer2010]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Answer the question. Is LeBron a better passer than Penny? :facepalm

[Jacks3]

Kobe was a better play-maker than T-Mac.

6 APG in the triangle while playing with Snaq. :bowdown:
7+ APG when he played outside the triangle despite playing injured.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[RRR3]

Answer the question. Is LeBron a better passer than Penny? :facepalm
Didn't see prime Penny play, sorry.

[RRR3]

7+ APG when he played outside the triangle despite playing injured.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
His career high in APG is 6.0. Why do you have to lie to make Kobe look better? :facepalm BTW T-Mac's career high is 6.5 :pimp:

[Clippersfan86]

Answer the question. Is LeBron a better passer than Penny? :facepalm

Dude Penny has to be the most overrated player of all time. People talk like he was a GOAT level SG. Dude was healthy and all star level like what 2 seasons? Sure he was very versatile but let me remind you again. Lebron James in 2009 had THE highest assist average of ALL TIME for a non PG. He broke Bird's record. This was done playing on the Cavs without a second, reliable star (plenty of talent but often inconsistent).

Lebron James' court vision and ability to MAKE plays blows Anfernee Hardaway out of the water. It's literally not even close dude. I'm willing to bet half of Penny's assists were dumping the ball down low to the most unstoppable force the NBA has ever seen in Shaq. Imagine if Lebron got to play with prime Shaq? He would of put up 10+ apg easy.

[hammer2010]

Didn't see prime Penny play, sorry.

That's what I thought. :facepalm All LeBron fans are 9 to 16 year olds who don't know sh*t about the game of basketball. LeBron's only impressive physically as a basketball player. That's it! Everything he does on the basketball court is forced and unnnatural. From his ball handling, to his shooting, to his footwork all the way to his supposed passing and 'play making' :oldlol:

[Clippersfan86]

His career high in APG is 6.0. Why do you have to lie to make Kobe look better? :facepalm BTW T-Mac's career high is 6.5 :pimp:

Don't go by stats. Kobe and Tmac were definitely equal passers/playmakers. Different situations on their teams but overall both are very gifted passers but also very ball dominant and ball hogged at times.

[Jacks3]

Why do you have to lie to make Kobe look better? :facepalm :pimp:
Are you retarded? The games where he played under Rudy-T he averaged 7+ APG. Despite playing injured.

BTW, putting up 6 APG under the triangle while playing wth Snaq>anything T-Wack ever did.

BTW, Kobe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>T-Wack.

[rodman91]

I think T-Mac and Vince were also better passers than LeBron. LeBron's too caught up in trying to be this 'great mythical play maker' in his own head. Anyone that knows basketball knows LeBron's not a great passer. He's good but not great not even very good.

I get the feeling that most of the posters on this board are 16 year olds or younger and don't know sht about basketball and have their minds made up for them through the general hype surrounding certain players.

To test this theory, I will ask all the people who said LeBron's a better passer this question.

Who is a better passer between LeBron and Penny?

Lebron>T-Mac>Vince.

Between Penny and Lebron it's closer. Lebron is more willing than Penny. They both have great courtvisions and nice passing skills.

[RRR3]

Are you retarded? The games where he played under Rudy-T he averaged 7+ APG. Despite playing injured.

BTW, putting up 6 APG under the triangle while playing wth Snaq>anything T-Wack ever did.

BTW, Kobe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>T-Wack.

:sleeping Playing with Shaq should increase your assists. T-Mac also had a very low turnover rate compared to other ball-dominant perimeter players. No one thinks T-Mac is better than Kobe, calm down. We're just saying he could have been at least as good as Kobe, and you clearly know that or you wouldn't be so defensive about this subject. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Don't go by stats. Kobe and Tmac were definitely equal passers/playmakers. Different situations on their teams but overall both are very gifted passers but also very ball dominant and ball hogged at times.
I'm not going by stats alone, I was just using Jacks' logic.

[hammer2010]

Lmao at LeBron being a better passer than Penny? :lol

LeBron doesn't have an ounce of skill that Penny possessed, not an OUNCE.

Thank you for proving my point about being 12 year old know-nothings LeBron fangirls.

[rodman91]

Are you retarded? The games where he played under Rudy-T he averaged 7+ APG. Despite playing injured.

BTW, putting up 6 APG under the triangle while playing wth Snaq>anything T-Wack ever did.

BTW, Kobe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>T-Wack.

Luke Walton had more assists in finals when he played only half as much as Kobe.

In Triangle...With Shaq.

[RRR3]

That's what I thought. :facepalm All LeBron fans are 9 to 16 year olds who don't know sh*t about the game of basketball. LeBron's only impressive physically as a basketball player. That's it! Everything he does on the basketball court is forced and unnnatural. From his ball handling, to his shooting, to his footwork all the way to his supposed passing and 'play making' :oldlol:

:facepalm I admitted I hadn't seen him play nor do I know enough about Penny to make snap judgements like that. Based on what I've heard, LBJ is one of the all-time best non-PG passers, and while that may be wrong (I haven't seen every player ever) it's worth noting. However, I have seen LeBron play a lot and he is a great passer, and a good ballhandler. And I hate to break it to you, but LeBron is a good shooter nowadays too. Keep pretending he's not, though.

[hammer2010]

Based on what I've heard, LBJ is one of the all-time best non-PG passers, and while that may be wrong (I haven't seen every player ever) it's worth noting.


Thanks for proving my point. :facepalm 'From what I've heard' :lol

Well hear something else then. It's all hype. BULLSH*T!!

[Jacks3]

:sleeping Playing with Shaq should increase your assists.
Not really. Shaq was a one-on-one player through and through.

T-Mac also had a very low turnover rate compared to other ball-dominant perimeter players.
So does Kobe. In fact, in 2006 he had the highest usage % ever (38%) and was still among the league leaders in lowest TOV%. :bowdown:


No one thinks T-Mac is better than Kobe, calm down. We're just saying he could have been at least as good as Kobe, and you clearly know that or you wouldn't be so defensive about this subject. :oldlol:
No, he couldn't have ever been "at least" as good as Kobe.

lol @ you continuing to overrate the shit out of T-Wack and his "talent".

Not defensive at all. I'm just realistic. I don't engage in "what-if's" like you T-Wack fans like to.

And the reality is...

Kobe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>T-Wack.

:pimp:

[ZaaaaaH]

LOL these retards think playing with Shaq help them increase Assist numbers. :facepalm

These LeBron nut huggers dont even know how Assist works and they are here arguing. :applause:

LeBron has overall better Court Vision and passing ability but Kobe is just much more Creative with his Passes. Kobe is a Player Maker LeBron pads his Stats.

[Clippersfan86]

Lmao at LeBron being a better passer than Penny? :lol

LeBron doesn't have an ounce of skill that Penny possessed, not an OUNCE.

Thank you for proving my point about being 12 year old know-nothings LeBron fangirls.

ROFL pal. I've been watching the NBA actively since about 95. I got to watch all 3 years of Penny's "prime". You can't be serious when saying Penny was better at ANYTHING than Lebron. Worse scorer, worse passer, worse defender, worse rebounder. Tell me please what Penny is better at.

How does

21.7 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 7.1 apg and 2 spg sound next to..

29.7 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 8.6 apg, 1.6 spg and 1 bpg?????

Lebron's 09-10 season is easily a top 5 NBA season in league history in my opinion. I don't undersyand how you could compare Penny to this? I don't give a rats as* if you think Penny was more gifted. He was nowhere near the level of prime Lebron in ANY facet of the game. So let go of your mancrush.

[rodman91]

That's what I thought. :facepalm All LeBron fans are 9 to 16 year olds who don't know sh*t about the game of basketball. LeBron's only impressive physically as a basketball player. That's it! Everything he does on the basketball court is forced and unnnatural. From his ball handling, to his shooting, to his footwork all the way to his supposed passing and 'play making' :oldlol:

I have seen prime Penny. He had great courtvision and passing skills like Lebron.

[Bigsmoke]

Answer the question. Is LeBron a better passer than Penny? :facepalm

how many players in NBA history can average over 29ppg and 8 assists a game?

If LeBron just focuses on passing, he could easily average around 10 a game on the Heat.

[RRR3]

Honestly, this thread is an insult to LeBron. I guess it's to be expected, Kobe stans want Kobe to be better than LeBron at every single facet of basketball, even though the only think Kobe is better at than LeBron right now is FT shooting.:roll:

[Clippersfan86]

I have seen prime Penny. He had great courtvision and passing skills like Lebron.

Penny was a great playmaker/passer. Anybody who watched him can't deny that. To put him on the level of prime Bird and Lebron though? You guys are smoking some good sh**. Even if his 7 apg peak is impressive for a SG. Is he a top 10 SF/SG passer ever? Yes. Top 5? Maybe. Lebron and Bird are THE best non PG passers in NBA history though IMO and Penny isn't close to their level.

[Bigsmoke]

LOL these retards think playing with Shaq help them increase Assist numbers. :facepalm

These LeBron nut huggers dont even know how Assist works and they are here arguing. :applause:

LeBron has overall better Court Vision and passing ability but Kobe is just much more Creative with his Passes. Kobe is a Player Maker LeBron pads his Stats.

yea the Cavs sure didnt need LeBron's stat-padded numbers. :rolleyes:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2011.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iNeXks8dTQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgFMYVLeuOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTg7c4kima4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CD6dv6DGpw&feature=related

[hammer2010]

ROFL pal. I've been watching the NBA actively since about 95. I got to watch all 3 years of Penny's "prime". You can't be serious when saying Penny was better at ANYTHING than Lebron. Worse scorer, worse passer, worse defender, worse rebounder. Tell me please what Penny is better at.

How does

21.7 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 7.1 apg and 2 spg sound next to..

29.7 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 8.6 apg, 1.6 spg and 1 bpg?????

Lebron's 09-10 season is easily a top 5 NBA season in league history in my opinion. I don't undersyand how you could compare Penny to this? I don't give a rats as* if you think Penny was more gifted. He was nowhere near the level of prime Lebron in ANY facet of the game. So let go of your mancrush.

Idiot I have always acknowledged LeBron's physical prowess over his peers. I think he is head and shoulders above everyone else in the League in terms of overall athleticism. And I love his game in that regard. I am not a LeBron hater. I love how hard he goes to the rim and finishes with power with people hanging all over him. It's really an amazing thing to see. He also has great instincts as an athlete. But let's not pretend he is something he is not. The fact is that LeBron is not particularly skilled when comparing him to players like Kobe and even Penny. And yes that includes passing. I am just challenging the notion that LeBron's an all-time great passer when in reality he is not even better than Kobe.

[RRR3]

It boggles my mind that Kobe stans call anyone a statpadder. Oh, the hypocrisy. :roll:

[Clippersfan86]

I'm far from a Lebron fan but I'm not about to let people say guys like Penny and Kobe are better passers. That's completely false. Lebron literally could average 10 apg as a 6'8 260 pound SF/Point forward and I have no doubt in my mind. If he shot the ball less he could do this without breaking a sweat.

[Clippersfan86]

Idiot I have always acknowledged LeBron's physical prowess over his peers. I think he is head and shoulders above everyone else in the League in terms of overall athleticism. And I love his game in that regard. I am not a LeBron hater. I love how hard he goes to the rim and finishes with power with people hanging all over him. It's really an amazing thing to see. He also has great instincts as an athlete. But let's not pretend he is something he is not. The fact is that LeBron is not particularly skilled when comparing him to players like Kobe and even Penny. And yes that includes passing. I am just challenging the notion that LeBron's an all-time great passer when in reality he is not even better than Kobe.

Who cares how skilled he is. Kobe is more "skilled" than Wade but who still considers Kobe better? Bogut is more skilled than Dwight Howard but is he better? If your argument is "Lebron is only superior because of his athleticism" nobody gives a rats ass and that's an old argument. What you said is that Penny was a better passer/playmaker which is a flat out lie. Then you called everyone out as being 12 year olds who disagreed.

Skill vs natural gifts/athleticism doesn't matter. Whatever gets the job done counts.

[ZaaaaaH]

ROFL pal. I've been watching the NBA actively since about 95. I got to watch all 3 years of Penny's "prime". You can't be serious when saying Penny was better at ANYTHING than Lebron. Worse scorer, worse passer, worse defender, worse rebounder. Tell me please what Penny is better at.

How does

21.7 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 7.1 apg and 2 spg sound next to..

29.7 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 8.6 apg, 1.6 spg and 1 bpg?????

Lebron's 09-10 season is easily a top 5 NBA season in league history in my opinion. I don't undersyand how you could compare Penny to this? I don't give a rats as* if you think Penny was more gifted. He was nowhere near the level of prime Lebron in ANY facet of the game. So let go of your mancrush.


If you started watching NBA at 95 then you probably didnt know anything about basketball then and you were probably 5 years old so IMO you knew shiiiit about the game then and you still know shiiit about the game now trying to act like you knew how great Penny was with ur weak knowledge of the game. Penny at second year made it to 1st Team NBA and the Following year after that. Penny was 6'7 a TRUE PG not like LeBron. People keep trying to act like LeBron can play PG just makes me Laugh.

Its funny how angry you are Penny never even hit his Prime due to injury; clearly shows how much u know about the game and you are comparing to someone who had the Green light on his prime who Specialize in Stat padding. :facepalm

[hammer2010]

Who cares how skilled he is. Kobe is more "skilled" than Wade but who still considers Kobe better? Bogut is more skilled than Dwight Howard but is he better? If your argument is "Lebron is only superior because of his athleticism" nobody gives a rats ass and that's an old argument. What you said is that Penny was a better passer/playmaker which is a flat out lie. Then you called everyone out as being 12 year olds who disagreed.

Skill vs natural gifts/athleticism doesn't matter. Whatever gets the job done counts.

Athleticism does not equal skill and that's why you don't know sh*t about basketball. :oldlol: Keep digging you own grave with your own arguments.

[Jacks3]

Kobe is much more skilled than Wade,and if he was in his prime, he would be easily considered better. lol @ comparing a guy in his prime to another dude wayyyy past his.

[ZaaaaaH]

yea the Cavs sure didnt need LeBron's stat-padded numbers. :rolleyes:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2011.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iNeXks8dTQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgFMYVLeuOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTg7c4kima4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CD6dv6DGpw&feature=related


Another Keyboard Warrior who understands nothing about the game. :lol

[hammer2010]

If you started watching NBA at 95 then you probably didnt know anything about basketball then and you were probably 5 years old so IMO you knew shiiiit about the game then and you still know shiiit about the game now trying to act like you knew how great Penny was with ur weak knowledge of the game. Penny at second year made it to 1st Team NBA and the Following year after that. Penny was 6'7 a TRUE PG not like LeBron. People keep trying to act like LeBron can play PG just makes me Laugh.

Its funny how angry you are Penny never even hit his Prime due to injury; clearly shows how much u know about the game and you are comparing to someone who had the Green light on his prime who Specialize in Stat padding. :facepalm

I started watching in 1990 and I have gotten to see most of the 90's and 2000's players first hand while growing up as a coach's son. I find it hilarious to see how much ignorance floats around the mainstream basketball world.

[RRR3]

Another Keyboard Warrior who understands nothing about the game. :lol
Coming from the guy who thinks Kevin Durant is better than LeBron James, that's pretty funny.

[bdreason]

Kobe is better than LeBron at many things... but passing isn't one of them.

[Clippersfan86]

If you started watching NBA at 95 then you probably didnt know anything about basketball then and you were probably 5 years old so IMO you knew shiiiit about the game then and you still know shiiit about the game now trying to act like you knew how great Penny was with ur weak knowledge of the game. Penny at second year made it to 1st Team NBA and the Following year after that. Penny was 6'7 a TRUE PG not like LeBron. People keep trying to act like LeBron can play PG just makes me Laugh.

Its funny how angry you are Penny never even hit his Prime due to injury; clearly shows how much u know about the game and you are comparing to someone who had the Green light on his prime who Specialize in Stat padding. :facepalm

Wow... so much fail. First off Penny was versatile and did play PG but he was a SG/SF. He was 6'7 200 pounds and was known for his versatility. Calling a SG/SF a "true PG" is laughable. Lebron played PG his first season and had an incredible rookie year so saying he can't play it is a joke. You know what a Point Forward is right?

Who cares if he made the first team dude? How many records did Lebron break as "youngest" to do this and that? It's sad because Penny had 3 prime years and people worship the guy. Lebron is an MVP threat every single season.

Since you want to compare achievements here you go!

Penny:

4

[rodman91]

I'm far from a Lebron fan but I'm not about to let people say guys like Penny and Kobe are better passers. That's completely false. Lebron literally could average 10 apg as a 6'8 260 pound SF/Point forward and I have no doubt in my mind. If he shot the ball less he could do this without breaking a sweat.

Kobe has never been a great passer.Not willing as well. Penny had great passing ability and courtvision like Lebron but he wasn't as dominant as Lebron on offense.

Better passer doesn't mean better assist numbers. Grant Hill had lesser passing skills compared to Penny & Lebron but he had similar numbers with good courtvision and he was very unselfish.

[ZaaaaaH]

Penny was a great playmaker/passer. Anybody who watched him can't deny that. To put him on the level of prime Bird and Lebron though? You guys are smoking some good sh**. Even if his 7 apg peak is impressive for a SG. Is he a top 10 SF/SG passer ever? Yes. Top 5? Maybe. Lebron and Bird are THE best non PG passers in NBA history though IMO and Penny isn't close to their level.


And you watch Penny all his 3years of "Prime". LOL

Do you know who Nick Anderson was cuz I believe he was the SG.

You are a fuccking Joke.

[hammer2010]

Freezing the ball at the top of the key and pounding it for 20 seconds straight and then chucking it as hard as possible at any cutter towards the basket =GOAT passer. :lol

Thank you LeBron fans for the laughs. :oldlol:

If you only knew how damaging that is to the flow of the game you would all gently jump off of LeBron's d*ck.

[Jacks3]

Kobe has never been a great passer.Not willing as well.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Clippersfan86]

And you watch Penny all his 3years of "Prime". LOL

Do you know who Nick Anderson was cuz I believe he was the SG.

You are a fuccking Joke.

Um buddy. What's up with your comprehension? I'm not saying Penny never played PG. I'm saying he was a SG/SF who DID play PG at times and for a couple seasons. Lebron did the same so it's retarded for you to say one is a "true PG" and the other isn't despite Lebron's superior assist numbers during his career.

True PG or not, doesn't matter. Lebron is the better playmaker/passer.

[rodman91]

Freezing the ball at the top of the key and pounding it for 20 seconds straight and then chucking it as hard as possible at any cutter towards the basket =GOAT passer. :lol

Thank you LeBron fans for the laughs. :oldlol:

If you only knew how damaging that is to the flow of the game you would all gently jump off of LeBron's d*ck.

Being ball hog has nothing to do with being great passer or not. I agree on his ball hogging isn't good for a team like Heat. That type of play can work for limited offensive teams like Cavs.

[rodman91]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Even you know it's true.:lol

[Clippersfan86]

Freezing the ball at the top of the key and pounding it for 20 seconds straight and then chucking it as hard as possible at any cutter towards the basket =GOAT passer. :lol

Thank you LeBron fans for the laughs. :oldlol:

If you only knew how damaging that is to the flow of the game you would all gently jump off of LeBron's d*ck.

It's so damaging that he's been to the ECF 3 times, finals twice and almost ECF one or two other times. Give Lebron James in Cleveland a prime Shaq and prime Horace Grant like Penny had and see what the fu** he does. We are talking about 3+ straight titles.

[Bigsmoke]

Another Keyboard Warrior who understands nothing about the game. :lol


because those links were true and the Cavs just had the best record in the NBA just the year before?

stat pad stats = numbers by players that contributed to little success which could be by player like Al Jefferson, Kevin Love, David Lee ect.

i dont know nothing about the game while you dont know anything about English.

lol nice comeback. :lol

[JohnnyWall]

It's so damaging that he's been to the ECF 3 times, finals twice and almost ECF one or two other times.

and won none times.

[RRR3]

and won none times.
And it's been his fault a grand total of once. :rolleyes:

[Clippersfan86]

and won none times.

And the only real playoff success Penny had was being carried by nearly 30 ppg, in shape, young Shaq as well as all star Horace Grant to the finals. Your point?

Swept by Pacers his first time in the playoffs. Finals once, and conference finals once (Shaq was putting up 30 ppg just about). Then first round exits the rest of his career. He wasn't the best player on his team a single playoff run.

[RRR3]

OP, have you noticed that no one agrees with you except for known Kobe stans/LeBron haters? :roll:

[ZaaaaaH]

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Wow... so much fail. First off Penny was versatile and did play PG but he was a SG/SF. He was 6'7 200 pounds and was known for his versatility. Calling a SG/SF a "true PG" is laughable. Lebron played PG his first season and had an incredible rookie year so saying he can't play it is a joke. You know what a Point Forward is right?

Who cares if he made the first team dude? How many records did Lebron break as "youngest" to do this and that? It's sad because Penny had 3 prime years and people worship the guy. Lebron is an MVP threat every single season.

Since you want to compare achievements here you go!

Penny:

4

[JohnnyWall]

And it's been his fault a grand total of once. :rolleyes:
Excuses are easy. Replace Lebrick with Kobe, Jordan, Magic, or most other greats on a 2011 Heat caliber team and they win the title. Keep Lebron and his 391238 turnovers and anti-clutch, and they lose the title.

[RRR3]

Again, LOL @ Kobe stans calling ANYONE a stat padder. Hypocrites :roll:

[Bigsmoke]

ZaaaaaH. you are truly a waste of time.

i'm just going to smite you and move on.

[RRR3]

Excuses are easy. Replace Lebrick with Kobe, Jordan, Magic, or most other greats on a 2011 Heat caliber team and they win the title. Keep Lebron and his 391238 turnovers and anti-clutch, and they lose the title.
"LeBrick" (who had one of the highest percentages from mid range this past year btw) is the reason they got to the finals in the first place.

[D.J.]

Kobe is the better passer, but LeBron is more willing. Kobe was putting up around 5 APG during his prime and peaked at 6. If he was more willing and not so selfish in his prime, he probably could have hit 7-8.

[Clippersfan86]

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA :applause: One of the Best Post eva !

First I do not know how ur asss taste go ask ur sister and LeBron.

Penny came in the League as a PG and STAYED as PG while he was playing for Magic. I was a Huge Penny fan so their is no fucccking way you are telling me he played SG/SF regularly. What is laughable is Delusional kids like you thinking LeBron can play PG when you guys dont even know what PG's job is. Because LeBron avrg 8 assist does not make him a PG. :facepalm This is ABC Basketball Shiiit. Point Forward :bowdown: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Yes we all know what Point Forward is, a person who Pads fuccking Stats so they have to make a name for it.

Also I never said Penny was better then LeBron. LeBron is obviously the Better player but for you to say LeBron is better then Penny at the Point :facepalm

Dont need to show me LeBrons Achievements I know exactly where he is at and he is Behind from where he should be by now.

Oh BTW the 5 year old thing was a Joke but if you were born in 86 then dam YOu really knew nothing about basketball back in 95.

Based on your grammar, comprehension skills and intelligence I honestly don't see any way in hell you're older than me. If you are.. you're pretty retarded dude.

I don't give a sh** if you consider Lebron a "true PG" or say he can't play PG. The responsibility of a Point Forward which is what Lebron is, as was Bird... is similar to that of a PG in many ways, primarily in setting up teammates and making plays. There isn't a big gap in the passing between elite PG's and players like Bird/Lebron.

Reality here is you made a stupid comment in saying that Penny>Lebron and now you're backpeddling like a little bitc* and changing the argument to things like "Lebron isn't a TRUE PG" or "Lebron isn't skilled, just athletic" etc. NOBODY GIVES A RATS AS* BRO. You're a really, really bad poster.

[rodman91]

Excuses are easy. Replace Lebrick with Kobe, Jordan, Magic, or most other greats on a 2011 Heat caliber team and they win the title. Keep Lebron and his 391238 turnovers and anti-clutch, and they lose the title.

Similar chance for Kobe being chucker like 04 series and Heat lose again.

[pauk]

lol @ some people trying to make a debate out of this..... why not throw somebody else at Kobe in terms of passing? So we can actually debate and think for a second..... Lamar Odom vs Kobe Bryant in terms of passing would be interesting dont you think? Lamar is a great passer and i think is the Lakers best passer...

even more radical lol @ the guy saying penny was a better passer... wade, t-mac and many many more were also MUCH better passers than Penny....

[RRR3]

Kobe is the better passer, but LeBron is more willing. Kobe was putting up around 5 APG during his prime and peaked at 6. If he was more willing and not so selfish in his prime, he probably could have hit 7-8.
:facepalm And people say LeBron isn't becoming Underrated. So let me get this straight....

Kobe is a better passer than LeBron :roll:
Carmelo Anthony is a better scorer than LeBron (even though he scores less in both RS and playoffs)
Kevin Durant is a better player than LeBron (even though he plays no D)


Next people will manage to convince themselves that Joe Johnson is better than LeBron.:facepalm

[JohnnyWall]

http://i.imgur.com/XapDC.jpg

[Deuce Bigalow]

Similar chance for Kobe being chucker like 04 series and Heat lose again.

vs the Mavs defense ? :roll:
yeah ok...

anyways Kobe atleast wasnt the 5th leading scorer, and didnt get outscored by a bench player in the Finals :oldlol:

[ZaaaaaH]

because those links were true and the Cavs just had the best record in the NBA just the year before?

stat pad stats = numbers by players that contributed to little success which could be by player like Al Jefferson, Kevin Love, David Lee ect.

i dont know nothing about the game while you dont know anything about English.

lol nice comeback. :lol


HAHAHAHAH this kid. Obviously you fail to mention a lot of other stuff happened to Cavs franchise not just LeBron their Superstar who they have been pampering every year and building their Life Around him fail to let them know that he was leaving them. :facepalm

At the same time their second third and fourth best player was injured.

Also wasting all those years trying to help LeBron win a ring made the Cavs never focusing on young talent.

Obviously ur Franchise player leaves without giving you anything back u are gonna take a huge damage next season. Bottom line I clearly forgot u dont know shiiit about the game besides Stating the OBVIOUS. Who the Fuccck Didnt know Cavs not gonna play well after LeBron leaving. :facepalm He was the Back to Back MVP retard.

[Clippersfan86]

Kobe is the better passer, but LeBron is more willing. Kobe was putting up around 5 APG during his prime and peaked at 6. If he was more willing and not so selfish in his prime, he probably could have hit 7-8.

DJ you're typically a good poster but I've been watching Lebron a lot since he was a rookie and got to see Kobe when he couldn't even start ahead of Eddie Jones and this isn't true at all. When I first watched Lebron play my thought was "OMG... the guy is an INCREDIBLE passer/playmaker". His scoring and rebounding didn't blow me away. His passing did. It's not that he's the most gifted passer... but his court vision is astounding for a non PG. The plays he sees...and passes he makes consistently.. I have never seen a player make besides maybe Magic and Bird. Nash, CP3, Stockton and a few other PG's were better overall passers.... but not at that size and playing a non PG position.

[RRR3]

HAHAHAHAH this kid. Obviously you fail to mention a lot of other stuff happened to Cavs franchise not just LeBron their Superstar who they have been pampering every year and building their Life Around him fail to let them know that he was leaving them. :facepalm

At the same time their second third and fourth best player was injured.

Also wasting all those years trying to help LeBron win a ring made the Cavs never focusing on young talent.

Obviously ur Franchise player leaves without giving you anything back u are gonna take a huge damage next season. Bottom line I clearly forgot u dont know shiiit about the game besides Stating the OBVIOUS. Who the Fuccck Didnt know Cavs not gonna play well after LeBron leaving. :facepalm He was the Back to Back MVP retard.


You're right. LeBron is the worst player ever and Kobe is better than him at everything to do with basketball. :rolleyes:

[pauk]

just made a way more interesting thread... Lamar vs Kobe in terms of passing.... that is more debatable..

[ZaaaaaH]

Based on your grammar, comprehension skills and intelligence I honestly don't see any way in hell you're older than me. If you are.. you're pretty retarded dude.

I don't give a sh** if you consider Lebron a "true PG" or say he can't play PG. The responsibility of a Point Forward which is what Lebron is, as was Bird... is similar to that of a PG in many ways, primarily in setting up teammates and making plays. There isn't a big gap in the passing between elite PG's and players like Bird/Lebron.

Reality here is you made a stupid comment in saying that Penny>Lebron and now you're backpeddling like a little bitc* and changing the argument to things like "Lebron isn't a TRUE PG" or "Lebron isn't skilled, just athletic" etc. NOBODY GIVES A RATS AS* BRO. You're a really, really bad poster.


Another retard. Please find the post where I said Penny > LeBron?

Yes lets make shiiit up since you cant defend urself. You must be fuccking mad, Bird also was not a Fucccking POINT FORWARD. Wow you are just retarded. Bird didnt even bring up the FUCCKING BALL.

Do you think anyone who average above 7 assist is a fuccking Point Guard. Fucccking retards. :roll:

[Clippersfan86]

Another retard. Please find the post where I said Penny > LeBron?

Yes lets make shiiit up since you cant defend urself. You must be fuccking mad, Bird also was not a Fucccking POINT FORWARD. Wow you are just retarded. Bird didnt even bring up the FUCCKING BALL.

Do you think anyone who average above 7 assist is a fuccking Point Guard. Fucccking retards. :roll:

ROFL! You just put the nail in your coffin.

[ZaaaaaH]

ROFL! You just put the nail in your coffin.


You mean I put a Nail in ur Coffin. Move on Nub u just got owned.

[Bigsmoke]

Bird also was not a Fucccking POINT FORWARD.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d40/bignono97/crackhead.jpg

[ZaaaaaH]

You're right. LeBron is the worst player ever and Kobe is better than him at everything to do with basketball. :rolleyes:


Bitter huh ~

LOL its all good LeBron is not a better passer then Penny.

Also to make you feel better LeBron has better Open Court Vision with better pin point passing then Kobe does.

[RRR3]

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d40/bignono97/crackhead.jpg
http://2ch.so/fiz/arch/src/1311508143983.jpg

[Round Mound]

:facepalm Get this SHI-T Out of Here

In What Ways is Kobe a Better Passer?

In None Ways

[ZaaaaaH]

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d40/bignono97/crackhead.jpg


This kid so mad he put a Picture of himself. :oldlol:

[ZaaaaaH]

These retards think Larry was a Point Forward. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[D.J.]

:facepalm And people say LeBron isn't becoming Underrated. So let me get this straight....


I never said he was a poor passer. He's very good, but he's also much more willing than Kobe. Kobe is really the better passer, but he's also a hell of a lot more selfish, especially prime Kobe.



DJ you're typically a good poster but I've been watching Lebron a lot since he was a rookie and got to see Kobe when he couldn't even start ahead of Eddie Jones and this isn't true at all. When I first watched Lebron play my thought was "OMG... the guy is an INCREDIBLE passer/playmaker". His scoring and rebounding didn't blow me away. His passing did. It's not that he's the most gifted passer... but his court vision is astounding for a non PG. The plays he sees...and passes he makes consistently.. I have never seen a player make besides maybe Magic and Bird. Nash, CP3, Stockton and a few other PG's were better overall passers.... but not at that size and playing a non PG position.


LeBron's willingness to pass doesn't automatically make him a great passer. He's very good, but it's a bit overrated because he's so willing. We've seen Kobe make not just creative passes, but also crisp, hard ones while being double-teamed. If he was more willing to do that(especially in his prime), he'd be putting up similar numbers. You can't point to sh*tty teammates because LeBron's teammates in Cleveland were quite sh*tty as well and he still managed to put up 7-8 APG.

[Bigsmoke]

These retards think Larry was a Point Forward. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:


:lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_forward


Perhaps the most notable NBA point forwards are the 6'9" Larry Bird, who while playing as a small forward or power forward often ran the offense for the great Boston Celtics teams of the 1980s; the 6'9" Earvin "Magic" Johnson, who orchestrated the Laker's offense in the 1980s and was actually the team's point guard, which allowed his teams to have a dominant size advantage over opponents and allowed Johnson to play all five positions on the floor at various times in his career; the 6'8" Scottie Pippen, who played with the Chicago Bulls, Portland Trail Blazers and Houston Rockets, and ran the offense. An example of a Euroleague point forward of this type is the 6'7" Greek player Theo Papaloukas, a player that brings the ball down the court, runs the offense, and creates plays.

[JohnnyWall]

http://i.imgur.com/IugCRl.jpg

[pauk]

Another retard. Please find the post where I said Penny > LeBron?

Yes lets make shiiit up since you cant defend urself. You must be fuccking mad, Bird also was not a Fucccking POINT FORWARD. Wow you are just retarded. Bird didnt even bring up the FUCCKING BALL.

Do you think anyone who average above 7 assist is a fuccking Point Guard. Fucccking retards. :roll:

I agree with Zaaaah :eek:

[Jacks3]

Even you know it's true.:lol
:facepalm

[ZaaaaaH]

:lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_forward


HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :roll:

Best thing you brought up was fuccking WIKI. :facepalm

True Keyboard Warrior. :applause:

If you really want to know who is true Point Forward is Magic,Scottie, and LeBron.


Did you even read rest of what that Garbage wiki Say.

Other notable point forwards include: Chris Webber before he retired, especially when he was with the Sacramento Kings, Kevin Garnett in his days with the Minnesota Timberwolves, Lakers forward Lamar Odom, Pistons forward Tracy McGrady, Suns forward Grant Hill, Magic forward Hedo Turkoglu, Pistons forward Tayshaun Prince, Jazz forward Andrei Kirilenko, Pacers forward Danny Granger, and Sixers forward Andre Iguodala. On top of that, many players can opt to run the offense through the post or from positions differing from the key. Tim Duncan and Detlef Schrempf were both known to do this at various points in their careers.


Everyone in the fucccking league is now Point Forward. Great fucccking find retard. Go try harder.

[Clippersfan86]

:lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_forward

:roll: . Yea I stopped arguing because it's clear he has a development disability.

[JohnnyWall]

There's only one way you can consider LeBeta better than Kobe at "passing":

http://i.imgur.com/JINYm.jpg

[Clippersfan86]

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :roll:

Best thing you brought up was fuccking WIKI. :facepalm

True Keyboard Warrior. :applause:

If you really want to know who is true Point Forward is Magic,Scottie, and LeBron.


Did you even read rest of what that Garbage wiki Say.

Other notable point forwards include: Chris Webber before he retired, especially when he was with the Sacramento Kings, Kevin Garnett in his days with the Minnesota Timberwolves, Lakers forward Lamar Odom, Pistons forward Tracy McGrady, Suns forward Grant Hill, Magic forward Hedo Turkoglu, Pistons forward Tayshaun Prince, Jazz forward Andrei Kirilenko, Pacers forward Danny Granger, and Sixers forward Andre Iguodala. On top of that, many players can opt to run the offense through the post or from positions differing from the key. Tim Duncan and Detlef Schrempf were both known to do this at various points in their careers.


Everyone in the fucccking league is now Point Forward. Great fucccking find retard. Go try harder.

Nice defense against your stupidity. NOT! When people say Point Forward in basketball... Larry Bird is always the first example. Followed by guys like Lebron and Pippen. If you don't believe a Point Forward exists, you're beyond help.

[ZaaaaaH]

:roll: . Yea I stopped arguing because it's clear he has a development disability.


Bigsmoke was Handicap?

My bad Bra ~ I will go ez on u next time.

[7_cody]

There's only one way you can consider LeBeta better than Kobe at "passing":

http://i.imgur.com/JINYm.jpg

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol

[ZaaaaaH]

Nice defense against your stupidity. NOT! When people say Point Forward in basketball... Larry Bird is always the first example. Followed by guys like Lebron and Pippen. If you don't believe a Point Forward exists, you're beyond help.


You really have reading problems.

I just gave you 3 names of TRUE Point Forward not even 2 mins ago.:facepalm

ur hate is getting to u bra.

[RRR3]

There's only one way you can consider LeBeta better than Kobe at "passing":

http://i.imgur.com/JINYm.jpg
http://sportsshow.comedycentral.com/files/2011/04/Diagram_tmp-3-e1303245499129.jpg
http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/kobe-Bryant-Flow-Chart.jpg

[pauk]

Bird was not a Point-Forward... but he had the ability to "Point-Forward" sometimes.... but not to the same magnitude & efficiency as Lebron and especially not as Magic Johnson....

Bird was more of a great bigman/post passer, more of a "stationary passer" like Chis Webber, Bill Walton or Gasol or Divac and so on.... extremly unselfish one...

Bird didnt grab the ball and bring the ball up 24-7 and set up teammates and call up plays and so on.... he didnt like go cross you over, dribble between your legs just to set up a specific teammate or thread the needle and so on....

Bird was a pure SF/PF, a strict scorer........ who was extremly unselfish.... yes he could pass and was very flashy.. but not like a pointguard, with that i mean he didnt had a pointguard skillset... he couldnt do that while bringing the ball up full court press defense 48 minutes a game.... he didnt had the ballhandling/quickness for that...

Lebron is a pure Point-Forward (a PG in a Forwards body or a Forward with a PG skillset/role whatever you want to call it) a la Magic Johnson.. Scottie Pippen... Penny Hardaway...

[JohnnyWall]

http://i.imgur.com/YEXLr.jpg

[7_cody]

http://sportsshow.comedycentral.com/files/2011/04/Diagram_tmp-3-e1303245499129.jpg
http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/kobe-Bryant-Flow-Chart.jpg

Yours isn't accurate, while the LeBron is. That's part of what makes it funny -- the truth in it

[pauk]

35 posts... seems like some new gimmick account of Phong maybe or Nick Young or Kaiiu...

[ZaaaaaH]

35 posts... seems like some new gimmick account of Phong maybe or Nick Young or Kaiiu...


its Nick Yang ~

[rodman91]

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8052/koberf.jpg

[Clippersfan86]

Bird was not a Point-Forward... but he had the ability to "Point-Forward" sometimes.... but not to the same magnitude & efficiency as Lebron and especially not as Magic Johnson....

Bird was more of a great bigman/post passer, more of a "stationary passer" like Chis Webber, Bill Walton or Gasol or Divac and so on.... extremly unselfish one...

Bird didnt grab the ball and bring the ball up 24-7 and set up teammates and call up plays and so on.... he didnt like go cross you over, dribble between your legs just to set up a specific teammate or thread the needle and so on....

Bird was a pure SF/PF, a strict scorer........ who was extremly unselfish.... yes he could pass and was very flashy.. but not like a pointguard, with that i mean he didnt had a pointguard skillset... he couldnt do that while bringing the ball up full court press defense 48 minutes a game.... he didnt had the ballhandling/quickness for that...

Lebron is a pure Point-Forward (a PG in a Forwards body or a Forward with a PG skillset/role whatever you want to call it) a la Magic Johnson.. Scottie Pippen... Penny Hardaway...

Stick to recent basketball topics dude.

http://www.hardcourtmayhem.com/2011/05/29/nba-power-rankingsranking-the-greatest-%E2%80%98point%E2%80%99-forwards-in-nba-history/

http://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/nba_power_rankingsranking_the_greatest_point_forwa rds_in_nba_history/4811164

http://hoops-nation.com/index.php?/topic/6407-who-was-the-greatest-point-forward-in-the-nba-history/

Trust me. Bird is known as a Point Forward. Sure he was a listed SF.... but Point Forward was his playstyle.

[D.J.]

Bird was not a Point-Forward... but he had the ability to "Point-Forward" sometimes.... but not to the same magnitude & efficiency as Lebron and especially not as Magic Johnson....


He didn't handle the rock as much as LeBron did, but his stats were just as good if not better. He had seasons of 24/10/6+, 29/10+/6+, 26/10/7, 28/9/7+, and 30/9/6.



Bird was more of a great bigman/post passer, more of a "stationary passer" like Chis Webber, Bill Walton or Gasol or Divac and so on.... extremly unselfish one...


Bird's passes, and especially his highlights ones were usually not stationary. He often made great passes coming down the floor or simply moving around in the half court game.



Bird didnt grab the ball and bring the ball up 24-7 and set up teammates and call up plays and so on.... he didnt like go cross you over, dribble between your legs just to set up a specific teammate or thread the needle and so on....


Not 24/7, but he often did set up teammates on the break and while bringing the ball down.



Bird was a pure SF/PF, a strict scorer........ who was extremly unselfish.... yes he could pass and was very flashy.. but not like a pointguard, with that i mean he didnt had a pointguard skillset... he couldnt do that while bringing the ball up full court press defense 48 minutes a game.... he didnt had the ballhandling/quickness for that...


Bird was a better passer than many point guards. He knew where everyone on the floor was, had the highest ball IQ of anyone I've seen play, and had very fast hands when it came to passing. He wasn't quick, but he most certainly had the ballhandling ability. Bird in his prime was averaging around 6.5 APG. Only about 1 off from LeBron.



Lebron is a pure Point-Forward (a PG in a Forwards body or a Forward with a PG skillset/role whatever you want to call it) a la Magic Johnson.. Scottie Pippen... Penny Hardaway...


This I agree with.

[Clippersfan86]

Larry Bird was my favorite player of all time (alongside Reggie)...... im not trying to bash him...

i just never saw him as a point-forward... he could do it occasionally (like Kevin Garnett could or Chris Webber could)... but he didnt officially play Point-Forward in his career... not to the magnitude of Lebron or especially Magic Johnson.... Dennis Johnson was the one controling the entire offense 99.9% of the time.... Bird would run up and wait for it in the post and think SWISH first....

He's my favorite player of all time as well. It doesn't matter what we choose to see him as. The fact that like Lebron/Pippen/Webber/Magic and others like that... he has such an incredible all around game and was his teams primary playmaker from the Forward position, that makes him a Point Forward. Using it on guys like Webber is using it pretty loosely but Bird/Pippen and Lebron are the epitome of a Point Forward.

Think of it this way. They basically played like a combination of PG+SF or PF. That's exactly what it is.

[Clippersfan86]

Man you guys are really trying hard about this. Why do you need other peoples Opinion especially from another Forum to prove he was a Point Forward.

If ya ever watch Larry play you should know easily that he never played the position PG EVER or even Guard someone in that position. He rarely brought up the ball only thing Larry did that was PG like is his Passing ability and his vision where his teammates are and that has nothing to do with being a PG he was just skilled in those areas.

Magic, Scottie, LeBron Those 3 have been a TRUE Point Forward, They bring up the Ball and sets up plays for the Team and there are times even LeBron and Scottie guarding Point Guards when they dont play that position and thats what you call a Point Forward who actually does what Point Guards do.


The Rest is some BS obviously by looking at some of those names who are not even Close to even having a PG Skill set.

You and SmallSmoke failed and embarrassed urself now just move on.

You have 1 red boxes, I have 6 green boxes. You've spent far more time embarrassing yourself than me.

[ZaaaaaH]

He didn't handle the rock as much as LeBron did, but his stats were just as good if not better. He had seasons of 24/10/6+, 29/10+/6+, 26/10/7, 28/9/7+, and 30/9/6.





Bird's passes, and especially his highlights ones were usually not stationary. He often made great passes coming down the floor or simply moving around in the half court game.





Not 24/7, but he often did set up teammates on the break and while bringing the ball down.





Bird was a better passer than many point guards. He knew where everyone on the floor was, had the highest ball IQ of anyone I've seen play, and had very fast hands when it came to passing. He wasn't quick, but he most certainly had the ballhandling ability. Bird in his prime was averaging around 6.5 APG. Only about 1 off from LeBron.





This I agree with.


This, again that still does not make him a Point Forward.

[D.J.]

This, again that still does not make him a Point Forward.


I never said he was. In fact, the point forward term didn't begin with Bird. It began with Pippen.

[ZaaaaaH]

You have 1 red boxes, I have 6 green boxes. You've spent far more time embarrassing yourself than me.


My 1 red Box is full of Truth and Hate by retards like you.

ur 6 fake assss green boxes is from holding each others diccck and trying to sugar coat everyone's post or their fav player so you can be this Cool kid with a lot of green boxes on a Forum.

Again boxes has nothing to do with Knowledge of ball but you always bring these random shiiit up.

I will say this shiiit again since I think you are still butt hurt about it.


LARRY BIRD IS NOT A POINT FORWARD.

[JohnnyWall]

http://i.imgur.com/IgHD4.jpg

[ZaaaaaH]

I never said he was. In fact, the point forward term didn't begin with Bird. It began with Pippen.

I know im just letting SmallSmoke and Clipper boy know. Since they are relying on Wiki to help them out to get out of this one.

[Legends66NBA7]

I never said he was. In fact, the point forward term didn't begin with Bird. It began with Pippen.

I would say one of the originators of the "point forward" was Paul Pressey. Though yes, the term became popular with Pippen.

[rodman91]

http://i.imgur.com/IgHD4.jpg
:oldlol:

[Clippersfan86]

I never said he was. In fact, the point forward term didn't begin with Bird. It began with Pippen.

D.J... Jlip just posted this in other thread.

"In a controversial move that was described as Boston

[Clippersfan86]

I would say one of the originators of the "point forward" was Paul Pressey. Though yes, the term became popular with Pippen.

He said began, not became popular. Like I said it's untrue.

[JohnnyWall]

http://i.imgur.com/2hn12.png

[Legends66NBA7]

He said began, not became popular. Like I said it's untrue.

What's untrue ? The term began with Pippen ? Then yes, it didn't.

One of the players it did begin with is Pressey.

[D.J.]

[QUOTE]D.J... Jlip just posted this in other thread.

"In a controversial move that was described as Boston

[Heavincent]

:facepalm And people say LeBron isn't becoming Underrated. So let me get this straight....

Kobe is a better passer than LeBron :roll:
Carmelo Anthony is a better scorer than LeBron (even though he scores less in both RS and playoffs)
Kevin Durant is a better player than LeBron (even though he plays no D)


Next people will manage to convince themselves that Joe Johnson is better than LeBron.:facepalm

Well you just overrate the shit out of Lebron. You act like his passing ability is on par with Jason Kidd's passing ability or something.

This is a lot closer then you're making it out to be.

[Clippersfan86]

Just because the term was mentioned once, doesn't mean it "began". And by that season, Bird was nearly crippled with back pain. There's no way he could have played point forward.





Again, mentioning the term doesn't mean it began. The first true point forward was Pippen. That's when it began. It doesn't matter if a handful of people mentioned the term some years before.

When YOU first heard it used has nothing to do with the originality of the term. Pippen was NOT the first Point Forward nor was he the first player to be called a Point Forward obviously.

[D.J.]

When YOU first heard it used has nothing to do with the originality of the term. Pippen was NOT the first Point Forward nor was he the first player to be called a Point Forward obviously.


Now you're just arguing semantics. Mentioning the term in the interview doesn't make a player one. Bird was not a true point forward because he didn't handle the ball enough. While he did handle the ball at times and often made passes from the point, many of his passes came in the post while being double-teamed.

Regardless of when it was mentioned, the first true point forward was Pippen. Then McGrady, and then LeBron. You could go back to the 60's and find someone mention the term in passing. Doesn't change the fact that the first TRUE point forward was Scottie Pippen.

[pauk]

http://i.imgur.com/2hn12.png

Because they were held by Shaq first... :oldlol:

[Miller for 3]

Now you're just arguing semantics. Mentioning the term in the interview doesn't make a player one. Bird was not a true point forward because he didn't handle the ball enough. While he did handle the ball at times and often made passes from the point, many of his passes came in the post while being double-teamed.

Regardless of when it was mentioned, the first true point forward was Pippen. Then McGrady, and then LeBron. You could go back to the 60's and find someone mention the term in passing. Doesn't change the fact that the first TRUE point forward was Scottie Pippen.

What makes Pippen more of a point forward than mid 60s Hondo? After Cousy retired Hondo brough the ball up and ran the offense. Pressley did the same thing. They were point forwards in the same sense Pippen, Hill, and Lebron are.

[Clippersfan86]

Now you're just arguing semantics. Mentioning the term in the interview doesn't make a player one. Bird was not a true point forward because he didn't handle the ball enough. While he did handle the ball at times and often made passes from the point, many of his passes came in the post while being double-teamed.

Regardless of when it was mentioned, the first true point forward was Pippen. Then McGrady, and then LeBron. You could go back to the 60's and find someone mention the term in passing. Doesn't change the fact that the first TRUE point forward was Scottie Pippen.


Okay here you go. Bird had 8 seasons where he averaged 6+ assists per game, Pippen had 3. Pippen's career high usage rate was 27 and he only hit that mark once, Bird BEAT it 6 times. Not only does this prove Bird averaged more assists but also proves he was a much larger part of the offense. In other words he had the ball more than Pippen. Jordan was nearly as big of a part of the Bulls playmaking/passing as Pippen was. Bird ran the Celtics in a way Pippen couldn't dream of running the Bulls.

I'd also give Bird the edge when it comes to Court Vision. So let me tell you this one more time. When it comes to being a Point Forward as well as a player... Pippen isn't worthy to hold Bird's nuts.

[pauk]

Now you're just arguing semantics. Mentioning the term in the interview doesn't make a player one. Bird was not a true point forward because he didn't handle the ball enough. While he did handle the ball at times and often made passes from the point, many of his passes came in the post while being double-teamed.

Regardless of when it was mentioned, the first true point forward was Pippen. Then McGrady, and then LeBron. You could go back to the 60's and find someone mention the term in passing. Doesn't change the fact that the first TRUE point forward was Scottie Pippen.

First true point-forward:

60s, Oscar Robertson (Guard-Forward, PG/SG/SF)
70s, John Havlicek (Forward-Guard, SF/SG/PG)
80s, Magic Johnson (Guard-Forward, PG/SF/PF)
90s, Pippen (Forward-Guard, SF/SG/PG)
00s, Lebron (Forward-Guard, SF/PG/SG)

those represented "point-forward" in their respective eras the best

[D.J.]

What makes Pippen more of a point forward than mid 60s Hondo? After Cousy retired Hondo brough the ball up and ran the offense. Pressley did the same thing. They were point forwards in the same sense Pippen, Hill, and Lebron are.


Mid 60's Hondo was only averaging 3 APG.

[D.J.]

Okay here you go. Bird had 8 seasons where he averaged 6+ assists per game, Pippen had 3. Pippen's career high usage rate was 27 and he only hit that mark once, Bird BEAT it 6 times. Not only does this prove Bird averaged more assists but also proves he was a much larger part of the offense. In other words he had the ball more than Pippen. Jordan was nearly as big of a part of the Bulls playmaking/passing as Pippen was. Bird ran the Celtics in a way Pippen couldn't dream of running the Bulls.


Not sure what you're trying to prove. It has no bearing on what a point forward is.



First true point-forward:

60s, Oscar Robertson
70s, John Havlicek
80s, Magic Johnson
90s, Penny, Pippen, Grant Hill
00s, T-Mac, Lamar, Lebron


Oscar, Magic, and Penny were point guards.

[Cali Syndicate]

And the only real playoff success Penny had was being carried by nearly 30 ppg, in shape, young Shaq as well as all star Horace Grant to the finals. Your point?

Swept by Pacers his first time in the playoffs. Finals once, and conference finals once (Shaq was putting up 30 ppg just about). Then first round exits the rest of his career. He wasn't the best player on his team a single playoff run.

Penny took the number one ranked defensive Heat team all the way to game 5 in 97 all by himself while putting up 31/6/3 on 47% from the field.

ALL BY HIMSELF, NO SHAQ NO H GRANT, GAME 5.

You're really underrating Penny here.

[Clippersfan86]

Not sure what you're trying to prove. It has no bearing on what a point forward is.





Oscar, Magic, and Penny were point guards.

Okay first off "Point Forward" is a play style used to describe a Forward with PG skills. So it can be taken subjectively. That being said.. you and a couple others here are the first basketball fans I've known in my entire life that have said Bird wasn't a Point Forward, yet Pippen was. Bird IS THE POINT FORWARD. He's the epitome of it. When you talk to serious basketball heads.. the first Point Forward that's going to come up is Bird or Lebron, not Pippen.

[Clippersfan86]

Penny took the number one ranked defensive Heat team all the way to game 5 in 97 all by himself while putting up 31/6/3 on 47% from the field.

ALL BY HIMSELF, NO SHAQ NO H GRANT, GAME 5.

You're really underrating Penny here.

Okay so he had one good series. How does that one compare to Lebron's 38/8/8 series on 55+ percent shooting against the Orlando Magic in the ECF which were a top 3 defense that season? Penny had his moments but he's VERY overrated by people who want to have their little nostalgic moments. He's one of the biggest disappointments in NBA history just like guys like Shawn Kemp and should be remembered as such.

[D.J.]

Okay first off "Point Forward" is a play style used to describe a Forward with PG skills.


Using that, you can argue that many 3s are point forwards.

[D.J.]

Okay so he had one good series. How does that one compare to Lebron's 38/8/8 series on 55+ percent shooting against the Orlando Magic in the ECF which were a top 3 defense that season? Penny had his moments but he's VERY overrated by people who want to have their little nostalgic moments. He's one of the biggest disappointments in NBA history just like guys like Shawn Kemp and should be remembered as such.


Penny got hurt right after that playoff series. He proved he could lead without another star.

[Clippersfan86]

Using that, you can argue that many 3s are point forwards.

More modern ones like Iguodala and Odom as stated before ARE Point Forward's. I also agree they are way more common now. Problem is none of them hit the level of Rick Barry, Larry Bird, Scottie Pippen and Lebron James.

[Cali Syndicate]

Okay so he had one good series. How does that one compare to Lebron's 38/8/8 series on 55+ percent shooting against the Orlando Magic in the ECF which were a top 3 defense that season? Penny had his moments but he's VERY overrated by people who want to have their little nostalgic moments. He's one of the biggest disappointments in NBA history just like guys like Shawn Kemp and should be remembered as such.

How is he a disappointment? that's like saying Grant Hill is a disappointment. Shawn Kemp is a completely different story cause he is his own reason why he declined. Penny's downfall was due to injuries.

26ppg/5rpg/8apg at 50% in the finals as a sophomore.
26ppg/4rpg/4apg at 47% against the 96 Bulls.

Like I said, you are underrating Penny.

[Clippersfan86]

How is he a disappointment? that's like saying Grant Hill is a disappointment. Shawn Kemp is a completely different story cause he is his own reason why he declined. Penny's downfall was due to injuries.

26ppg/5rpg/8apg at 50% in the finals as a sophomore.
26ppg/4rpg/4apg at 47% against the 96 Bulls.

Like I said, you are underrating Penny.

Grant Hill is a disappointment. Not by his own doing (injuries just like Penny) but the first thing people are always going to think with players like this is "What could he have been if healthy?" etc. So by that very example that's defined as a disappointment. Just like Tmac and Vince Carter= disappointments.

I'm not underrating crap. I said Penny was an extremely talented, versatile player. What I disagree with is these two statements/implications.

1. Penny was a better passer/playmaker than Lebron

2. Penny was a better playoff performer


Both false.

[Cali Syndicate]

And the only real playoff success Penny had was being carried by nearly 30 ppg, in shape, young Shaq as well as all star Horace Grant to the finals. Your point?

Swept by Pacers his first time in the playoffs. Finals once, and conference finals once (Shaq was putting up 30 ppg just about). Then first round exits the rest of his career. He wasn't the best player on his team a single playoff run.


How are you underrating him?

Read above

[ZaaaaaH]

Okay first off "Point Forward" is a play style used to describe a Forward with PG skills. So it can be taken subjectively. That being said.. you and a couple others here are the first basketball fans I've known in my entire life that have said Bird wasn't a Point Forward, yet Pippen was. Bird IS THE POINT FORWARD. He's the epitome of it. When you talk to serious basketball heads.. the first Point Forward that's going to come up is Bird or Lebron, not Pippen.


LOL You must be talking about basketball with 10th graders. :lol

Again you are GREATLY mistaking with Passing Skills with being a Point Guard.

PG's main job is to protect and BRING UP THE BALL. AGAIN this is ABC SHiiit.

Anyone can run plays and pass the ball and most of the times its gonna be the best player in ur team with the possession of the ball. Again Bird was a Amazing passer with great Awareness witch was on par with other Great PGs but that is a SKILL and it has nothing to do with being a Point Guard.

I think you should list what PG's job is and we should go from there because I have a feeling you dont even know what PG main roll is. Because the person has high assist numbers does not make him a automatic Point Guard. :facepalm

[Clippersfan86]

How are you underrating him?

Read above

Okay I underrated him a little bit with his playoff performances. Doesn't change the fact that it's a straight up lie to call Penny better than Lebron in ANY way. Literally there isn't a single thing he's better at. Lebron's had some AMAZING playoff games/series that blow Penny away. People want to live in the present and focus only on last year that's fine but Penny was far from a perennially dominant playoff performer.

Lebron career playoff stats:

28 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 7 apg... 56% TS and PER of 26.


Penny career playoff stats:

20.5 ppg, 5 rpg, 6 apg... 55% TS and PER of 20.


This doesn't even factor in that Lebron had more team success in the playoffs with less dominant teammates. So anybody saying Playoff Penny>Lebron or Penny's passing> Lebron's... you can kiss my as*.

[Cali Syndicate]

Grant Hill is a disappointment. Not by his own doing (injuries just like Penny) but the first thing people are always going to think with players like this is "What could he have been if healthy?" etc. So by that very example that's defined as a disappointment. Just like Tmac and Vince Carter= disappointments.

I'm not underrating crap. I said Penny was an extremely talented, versatile player. What I disagree with is these two statements/implications.

1. Penny was a better passer/playmaker than Lebron

2. Penny was a better playoff performer


Both false.

1. Better? Probably not. Just as good? Arguably so.

2. Statistically? No. But Penny showed time and time again he could play like a superstar whenever his team needed him to. And it's not like Lebron has ever played with a post player who the entire offense played through like Penny did with Shaq.

[Clippersfan86]

LOL You must be talking about basketball with 10th graders. :lol

Again you are GREATLY mistaking with Passing Skills with being a Point Guard.

PG's main job is to protect and BRING UP THE BALL. AGAIN this is ABC SHiiit.

Anyone can run plays and pass the ball and most of the times its gonna be the best player in ur team with the possession of the ball. Again Bird was a Amazing passer with great Awareness witch was on par with other Great PGs but that is a SKILL and it has nothing to do with being a Point Guard.

I think you should list what PG's job is and we should go from there because I have a feeling you dont even know what PG main roll is. Because the person has high assist numbers does not make him a automatic Point Guard. :facepalm

Again I hope you have access to Hooked On Phonics bro because you're seriously retarded. I never called Bird a Point Guard. I called Bird a Point Forward which is a hybrid play style. It's equivalent to calling somebody a tweener but rather than being the next position they jump a position.

A Point Forward doesn't have to have ALL of the skills of both positions. You think Lebron is a better passer than Nash? A better ballhandler than most PG's? NO. He doesn't need to be and neither does Bird.

Bird had enough PG skills with his passing, playmaking, court vision to be qualified as a Point Forward even if his ball handling wasn't amazing.

[Clippersfan86]

1. Better? Probably not. Just as good? Arguably so.

2. Statistically? No. But Penny showed time and time again he could play like a superstar whenever his team needed him to. And it's not like Lebron has ever played with a post player who the entire offense played through like Penny did with Shaq.

Dude I don't care what your PERSONAL perception is. Anybody that says Penny was a better playoff performer than Lebron is still sour over his average playoff run this year. 38/8/8 on nearly 60 percent shooting against the 2nd or 3rd best D in the league will never be touched again. Especially in a 6 game series.

[NumberSix]

What an amazingly stupid thread.

This is about as sensible as a thread titled "Who's a better PF, Kobe or Garnett". Sadly, I'm sure there'd be at least 20 pages of people seriously trying to say Kobe.

[ZaaaaaH]

Again I hope you have access to Hooked On Phonics bro because you're seriously retarded. I never called Bird a Point Guard. I called Bird a Point Forward which is a hybrid play style. It's equivalent to calling somebody a tweener but rather than being the next position they jump a position.

A Point Forward doesn't have to have ALL of the skills of both positions. You think Lebron is a better passer than Nash? A better ballhandler than most PG's? NO. He doesn't need to be and neither does Bird.

Bird had enough PG skills with his passing, playmaking, court vision to be qualified as a Point Forward even if his ball handling wasn't amazing.


LOL and you called me retarded.

How the fucck you know this but you are sitting here making another Thread saying he was a Point Forward :facepalm

No shit Bird had a lot of skill set he is one of the BEST SKILLED PLAYER EVER only weakness he had was Ball Handling skill and WTF DOES A POINT FUCCCKING GUARDs MAINLY DO? BRING UP THE FUCCCKING BALL

My gosh just stop just move on like SmallSmokes did. At least he is smart and try not to get embarrassed anymore so he moved on after Posting that dumb asss Wiki Link who fucccking had Tayshun, Ak47, and Granger being a PointForward. :facepalm

The funniest part was him trying to use that as his argument. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Well you just overrate the shit out of Lebron. You act like his passing ability is on par with Jason Kidd's passing ability or something.

This is a lot closer then you're making it out to be.
Give me a break. Get over the fact that there are things LeBron is a lot better at than your precious Kobe. I suppose you think Kobe's a better scorer than Jordan and a better defender than Dwight Howard too. :rolleyes:

[Clippersfan86]

LOL and you called me retarded.

How the fucck you know this but you are sitting here making another Thread saying he was a Point Forward :facepalm

No shit Bird had a lot of skill set he is one of the BEST SKILLED PLAYER EVER only weakness he had was Ball Handling skill and WTF DOES A POINT FUCCCKING GUARDs MAINLY DO? BRING UP THE FUCCCKING BALL

How can you call someone Point Forward when he doesnt even do the Main thing the Point Guard does.

My gosh just stop just move on like SmallSmokes did. At least he is smart and try not to get embarrassed anymore so he moved on after Posting that dumb asss Wiki Link who fucccking had Tayshun, Ak47, and Granger being a PointForward. :facepalm

The funniest part was him trying to use that as his argument. :oldlol:

Bird brought the ball of plenty of the time. Just because he wasn't the primary ballhandler 100 percent of the time it DOESN'T disqualify him. Point Forward doesn't mean he's the starting PG and always has the ball in his hands like rookie Lebron etc. It means from the SF position he's fullfilling the roles of a PG (Which he did) or from the PG position you are fullfilling the role of a SF (Like Magic can be considered as doing).

BTW you tell me I don't know what a PG is.. then proceed to tell us that the main thing a PG does is bring the ball up :facepalm . The PG has more responsibilities than any position and bringing the ball up the court is about 10 percent of it. Making plays, find the right teammates, passing the ball etc is FAR more important than just walking/running the ball up the court. Of course though you're a PG master and already know this.

[JohnnyWall]

Give me a break. Get over the fact that there are things LeBron is a lot better at than your precious Kobe. I suppose you think Kobe's a better scorer than Jordan and a better defender than Dwight Howard too. :rolleyes:

Lol. You ride LeCrab's jock almost as hard as pauk.

[Cali Syndicate]

Dude I don't care what your PERSONAL perception is. Anybody that says Penny was a better playoff performer than Lebron is still sour over his average playoff run this year. 38/8/8 on nearly 60 percent shooting against the 2nd or 3rd best D in the league will never be touched again. Especially in a 6 game series.

Where are you getting almost 60% from?

Lebron shot 49% in that series.

Wade's series in 10 against the Celtics is arguably just as good.

33ppg/6rpg/7apg at 56%.

[ZaaaaaH]

Bird brought the ball of plenty of the time. Just because he wasn't the primary ballhandler 100 percent of the time it DOESN'T disqualify him. Point Forward doesn't mean he's the starting PG and always has the ball in his hands like rookie Lebron etc. It means from the SF position he's fullfilling the roles of a PG (Which he did) or from the PG position you are fullfilling the role of a SF (Like Magic can be considered as doing).

BTW you tell me I don't know what a PG is.. then proceed to tell us that the main thing a PG does is bring the ball up :facepalm . The PG has more responsibilities than any position and bringing the ball up the court is about 10 percent of it. Making plays, find the right teammates, passing the ball etc is FAR more important than just walking/running the ball up the court. Of course though you're a PG master and already know this.

Bird Brought up the ball most of the time? YEA off a miss basket for a fast break since he has very good vision and the defense is not set. He RARELY and I mean RARELY brought up the ball from a inbound pass JUST to bring up the ball like a POINT Guard/ Point Forwards usually do AKA LeBron James, Scottie Pippen.

The Funny thing is I do consider myself a pretty good PG since I played this position all my life even till Today chatting it up with you so I know one or two things about it more then you. Yes PG has one of the most responsibility especially when you are Coached by someone who enjoys calling plays on the side line but in general they all have same duty.

3 things you put up Amuse me :oldlol: and clearly shows me You never played Organized ball in ur life and I dont mean those $60 team pick up games you join in a rec center.

You think Bringing up the Ball is only 10% of the Game? LOL have you ever faced someone with a great perimeter defense? With a average ball handling skills you are not gonna pass that half court line that easily. You watch too much Superstar highlights on NBA.

Making Plays - LOL this is pretty much ur Superstars Job to make plays not the PGs. Get that part clear. :facepalm

Finding the right teammate - LOL This is everyone's JOB not just Point Guard. :facepalm

Passing - Everyone has to know how to Pass. :hammerhead:

You name 3 things That has to do with any basketball player in any position. :facepalm

I see why you thought Bird was a Point Forward. :lol Bringing up the ball not important. :applause:

[G-Funk]

Lol. You ride LeCrab's jock almost as hard as pauk.
lol repped

[Clippersfan86]

Where are you getting almost 60% from?

Lebron shot 49% in that series.

Wade's series in 10 against the Celtics is arguably just as good.

33ppg/6rpg/7apg at 56%.

You realize my numbers were just estimates off the top of my head? Lebron shot 50 percent... you're right but he also put up 38/9/7.5. Trust me Wade's 33/6/7 don't come close to that dude. I do admit I was exaggerating the shooting percentage unknowingly.

[Cali Syndicate]

You realize my numbers were just estimates off the top of my head? Lebron shot 50 percent... you're right but he also put up 38/9/7.5. Trust me Wade's 33/6/7 don't come close to that dude. I do admit I was exaggerating the shooting percentage unknowingly.

38ppg/8rpg/8apg at 49% vs 33ppg/6rpg/7apg at 56% is pretty damn close to me.

Lebron averaged 15.6 FTA per game? Everyone knows the league was itching for a Lebron/Kobe finals matchup but damn. That's just as many was Wade had in the 06 finals. Too bad for Lebron Dwight's dominance got in the way.