So what will be the perception of nowitzki if he doesnt win another ring?

[97 bulls]

Before last year. Dirk Nowitzki was labeled as a guy that couldn't lead a team to a championship. What happens if he never gets back or even never makes it back to the wcf?

Butler should be healthy and they aquired rudy fernandez. So they're better than they were this year. I believe this past year was a fluke. And feel the mavs won't even get back to the wcf.

[1987_Lakers]

Better than Pippen.

[AlphaWolf24]

all the white folks label him top 5 alltime...



book it

[jlip]

The way public perception seems to be is that when you lead a team to one ring you are forever labeled a "winner" (with only a few exceptions based upon insane biases). You can lose in the 1st round the rest of your career, but as long as you "proved" that you could win "the big one", the stamp "winner" is forever linked to you.

[Legends66NBA7]

Before last year. Dirk Nowitzki was labeled as a guy that couldn't lead a team to a championship. What happens if he never gets back or even never makes it back to the wcf?

Butler should be healthy and they aquired rudy fernandez. So they're better than they were this year. I believe this past year was a fluke. And feel the mavs won't even get back to the wcf.

Surprising thread, I wonder who this was for... but anyways I will explain:

He was an all-time great before he got a ring.

He was an all-time great after he got a ring, but with more people ranking him higher because what he did was amazing in that playoff run.

Does he get a "pass" for all of his previous other playoff failures? For the time being, yes, because he brought a title to a franchise that never had one before and it's winning tradition did not end up like that of the Utah Jazz of the mid 80's/90's Jazz.

If he does not win another again or get to the WCF, he will still be regarded very highly but any more hype about him will die down. Then, most NBA observers and critical thinkers can analyze his career accordingly when Dirk calls it a career.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He's already won a title, played in 2 finals, 3 WCF, played on three 60+ win teams, eleven 50+ win teams and been one of the absolute best playoff performers for the last 10+ years. He did all of that as hands down the best player on his teams.

It seems that Dirk finally got credit last year, but people have a short memory. Those that were saying Dirk wasn't capable either forgot 2006 or can grasp simple logic. You don't get as close as Dirk did in 2006 if you're not capable. He was clearly capable back then, he just didn't finish the deal. Being capable of doing something and doing it are two different things.

Even in 2003, he gets his team to the WCF and can't play in the final 3 games due to injury, I don't think he beats the Spurs regardless, but who is to say that he wasn't capable back then?

Even before the finals when Dirk was playing OKC, people were acting like he was doing something he never showed he could do before, completely forgetting about '06 when he was at least as good leading up to the finals. Nevermind the fact that he was playing out of his mind in the '09 playoffs.

In the past eleven seasons, Dirk has had a total of 2 playoff losses where he was really disappointing, the '06 finals and the much worse '07 upset vs Golden State. Because one was on the biggest stage in the finals and the next one came the following season after winning MVP, it seemed to completely wipe out everyone's memories of Dirk's great playoff performances and unwilling to accept his great play after that('09).

But now, Dirk shut most people up. You can't really take away from the guy. He won a title as the clear best player, played great doing so and led a team that most didn't expect to win. And people may be able to accept the decade of success that proceeded it as the franchise player(which few can match), his MVP ect.

That combined with the fact that he's really been a unique player and the most successful European player in the NBA will probably help his legacy hold up over the years.

It's hard to say how people view him, but I think that we'll see more people with him in the top 20 and he'll regularly come up in discussions for the top 3-5 power forwards of all time.

[Jacks3]

He was also shut down by T-Wack in the first round of 05.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He was also shut down by T-Wack in the first round of 05.

Yeah, I forgot about 2005. Impressive display of McGrady's versatility, shows how good he could've been defensively had he committed himself more at that end. Though Dirk won that series, I don't remember him playing all that well in the loss to Phoenix that same year.

[pegasus]

He already has accomplished enough to be considered one of the all-time greats.

As far as I'm concerned, he can go back to playing in Germany's second league for the rest of his career, and what I wrote above would still be true.

[DMAVS41]

Of course it was somewhat of a fluke that the Mavs won. That is what makes it so amazing....Dirk made that fluke possible. I find it so funny threads like this. Dirk is being compared all time to guys like Barkley and Malone....how come they never got a "fluke" title. The OP acts like its somehow a negative.

What is so funny is that Dirk has essentially been a capable first option since the 03 season. Like every player, he's had a few rough playoff moments and series....but the good far outweighs the bad.

Its just so interesting how Dirk is held to such a high standard. He played an awful series in 07. And wasn't "great" in the finals in 06.....funny how so many player in the history of the game have had far worse playoff moments/series. Guys like Bird, Magic, and Kobe have all had playoff struggles in huge moments.

The perception question is interesting because I'm curious as to why Dirk is expected to win titles and make deep playoff runs without the kind of help that most championship first options that have won titles have had. Dirk has never had the clear cut best team around him like so many other great players. Not to mention that Dirk is now entering his 14th year of his career....LOL at acting like the last 14 years haven't been the stuff of legends.

I'll flip the question around. How would Dirk be thought of if he had played the decade with the kind of talent and teams that Shaq/Kobe/Duncan had. Those guys played with better help and better coaching pretty much year in year out. What would Dirk's legacy look like playing with Shaq for 8 years and then a loaded roster another 4? Or playing for Pop and with Manu/Parker on those very good Spurs teams? How about Dirk playing on those Kings teams instead of Webber?

Dirk played in the era of shaq/duncan. Only 3 teams have made the finals from the west in the last 12 years. Mavs are part of that group. And each time they made the finals, they were huge underdogs to do it.

Now its expected that a past prime Dirk should lead a team with no other top 35 players in the game to another title? LOL....but the OP wants guys like Barkley and Malone and KG much higher all time....even though they never did what Dirk just did.

Makes no sense.

[NBAller]

the perception: he's a champion.

[FF1]

Kidd is 39.. Chandler might not be coming back.. Marion and Terry are a year older.

Chances of repeating are pretty slim. Dirk has made 3 WCF and 2 Finals and is a Finals MVP. Losing early in the playoffs next year (like Kobe and Duncan did this year) wouldn't tarnish anything.

[FF1]

Now its expected that a past prime Dirk should lead a team with no other top 35 players in the game to another title? LOL....but the OP wants guys like Barkley and Malone and KG much higher all time....even though they never did what Dirk just did.

Makes no sense.

This. For God's sake, this.

Dirk did what Barkley and Malone and KG couldn't do in their primes, yet they want him to do it again for good measure? The dude's a champion and his career has a body of work that goes along with that.

[HylianNightmare]

he will still be well regarded, because he will be remembered as the first to take down the dreaded miami heat

[brisbaneman]

This. For God's sake, this.

Dirk did what Barkley and Malone and KG couldn't do in their primes, yet they want him to do it again for good measure? The dude's a champion and his career has a body of work that goes along with that.

Repped!

[MichaelCheazley]

A representative of one country. A player who toughed it out and never gave up. He did not bolt back to europe when he was struggling. He adjusted his game and became an enigma. He developed a game like no one else's at his frame. He persevered and had constant regular season sucess. His loyalty was shown countless times and he is now rewarded with a ring. He is going to be remembered as a great player and a Hall of famer.

[Jacks3]

Yeah, poor Dirk. He's only had the best owner in sports putting together huge pay-rolls every year. He's only played with Nash (All-Star),Finley (All-Star),NXE,Jamison (All-Star),Walker (All-Star),Jason Terry (multiple 6th-man of the year winner),Josh Howard (All-Star),Devin Harris,Jason Kidd, Marion, Chandler, etc etc. It's just hilarious how these Dork fans act like he's been surrounded by garbage like KG in Minny or T-Mac in ORl. Dude has played with a TON of talent.

[DMAVS41]

Kidd is 39.. Chandler might not be coming back.. Marion and Terry are a year older.

Chances of repeating are pretty slim. Dirk has made 3 WCF and 2 Finals and is a Finals MVP. Losing early in the playoffs next year (like Kobe and Duncan did this year) wouldn't tarnish anything.

Yep.

Nothing can really change:

11 straight seasons over 50 wins
26/10/3 on great efficiency for his career in the playoffs. Definitely one of the best stat lines ever in the playoffs

Dirk has played for 13 years now. His legacy is wrapped up. He's in that group of players after the top 12 or 13......whether someone likes it or not. No reason to rank guys like Barkley, KG, and Malone on a different level than Dirk.

I called this a while back. I said that if Dirk wins and does something legendary like he did, the haters will be calling at a "fluke" and saying he should have won more. If you don't count the 03 team because Dirk got injured....Dirk has had 3 chances in his career to win the title. And that is being generous for 06 considering they were huge underdogs to get out of the 2nd round and Dirk has never had the best team around him. I'd say a title, 3 trips to the wcf, and 2 trips to the finals given his supporting casts is pretty damn good.

How many players in the history of the game would have been capable of leading the 11 Mavs to a title? Honestly how many? No more than 10 to 15 in NBA history.

[brisbaneman]

If only Dirk were black, right?

[FF1]

How many players in the history of the game would have been capable of leading the 11 Mavs to a title? Honestly how many? No more than 10 to 15 in NBA history.

In hindsight, people will list a ton of players... But before the playoffs started, everyone said he had a bad supporting cast that could never win.

That's just the way it goes.

[Kblaze8855]

1 or 5....nothing left to prove.

However....


Or playing for Pop and with Manu/Parker on those very good Spurs teams?

Those teams were just not that good. Duncan won it all with like a 38% shooting young Manu parker putting up like 15 on 40% shooting Drob and his 7 or 8ppg as a role player and young barely in the NBA Jackson.

The spurs were never winning off talent.

[FF1]

1 or 5....nothing left to prove.

However....



Those teams were just not that good. Duncan won it all with like a 38% shooting young Manu parker putting up like 15 on 40% shooting Drob and his 7 or 8ppg as a role player and young barely in the NBA Jackson.

The spurs were never winning off talent.

That 05 team was pretty dang good.. but I see your point. No one is saying Dirk is better than Duncan.

[Kblaze8855]

Pretty good. Yes. Not talented enough to be listed as somethinga guy like Dirk didnt get to have. They were not talented for a title team. They were not terribly talented for a finals team that loses either. They were less talented than the finals losers in like...6 of the first 7 years of the 90s.

[raiderfan19]

Yeah, poor Dirk. He's only had the best owner in sports putting together huge pay-rolls every year. He's only played with Nash (All-Star),Finley (All-Star),NXE,Jamison (All-Star),Walker (All-Star),Jason Terry (multiple 6th-man of the year winner),Josh Howard (All-Star),Devin Harris,Jason Kidd, Marion, Chandler, etc etc. It's just hilarious how these Dork fans act like he's been surrounded by garbage like KG in Minny or T-Mac in ORl. Dude has played with a TON of talent.
Kg had marbury(all star), gugliotta(all star) spreewell(all star) cassell(all star) sczerbiak(all star) Christian laettner(all star, terry porter(all star), isiah rider, terrell brandon, bobby jackson and joe smith.

You see how much fun it can be to pull names off a roster with no context? And with all that talent kg only made it out of the first round twice.

Even if you include the ridiculous amounts of talent hes had in boston hes still had less playoff success than dirk

[DMAVS41]

1 or 5....nothing left to prove.

However....



Those teams were just not that good. Duncan won it all with like a 38% shooting young Manu parker putting up like 15 on 40% shooting Drob and his 7 or 8ppg as a role player and young barely in the NBA Jackson.

The spurs were never winning off talent.

03...totally agree. And I'm not saying Dirk is near Duncan. He's not in my opinion.

But Duncan had better teams and coaching on the whole than Dirk did.

And its funny that Robinson is lamented for his playoffs in 03 by a lot of people. He put up 8/7 and still played quality defense. Not too far off from the impact Chandler had this year.

The reason the Spurs won in 03 is because Duncan is truly one of the 8 greatest players of all time and just clearly better than Dirk.

But those other years? Give me teams like the 05 and 07 Spurs all day over what Dirk was working with.

[Jacks3]

You see how much fun it can be to pull names off a roster with no context? And with all that talent kg only made it out of the first round twice.

lol

Stop trying to engage in revisionist history. Everyone knows KG in Minny had horrible supporting casts. It's a fact. Dirk has blessed to play on a team with the best owner in the game. He's had shit-loads of talent every year.

Even if you include the ridiculous amounts of talent hes had in boston hes still had less playoff success than dirk
Not really. Both have 1 title as "The Man". All that really matter.

Of course, none of this changes the fact that KG in his prime/peak was just a better player. It's not arguable.

[raiderfan19]

lol

Stop trying to engage in revisionist history. Everyone knows KG in Minny had horrible supporting casts. It's a fact. Dirk has blessed to play on a team with the best owner in the game. He's had shit-loads of talent every year.

Not really. Both have 1 title as "The Man". All that really matter.

Of course, none of this changes the fact that KG in his prime/peak was just a better player. It's not arguable.
How is my list any different then yours? Were some of the guys on my list past their primes? Yes but so were some people on yours. Were some of them only there for a year or two but so were quite a few of yours.

[Kblaze8855]

03...totally agree. And I'm not saying Dirk is near Duncan. He's not in my opinion.

But Duncan had better teams and coaching on the whole than Dirk did.

And its funny that Robinson is lamented for his playoffs in 03 by a lot of people. He put up 8/7 and still played quality defense. Not too far off from the impact Chandler had this year.

The reason the Spurs won in 03 is because Duncan is truly one of the 8 greatest players of all time and just clearly better than Dirk.

But those other years? Give me teams like the 05 and 07 Spurs all day over what Dirk was working with.


Eh. I just cant imagine giving Duncan Nash and 3 more all stars and losing in the first round, or him in his prime getting guarded by swingmen putting up like 13/7 on 2-11 shooting getting put out of the playoffs, or anything like that. Not MVP level Duncan which Dirk was in 07.

Dirks teams are said to have been poorly built. For the most part they lacked the same things Dirk lacks. They were pretty much built in his image early then got a lot more success when they swapped out some of the talent and played winning playoff basketball. But the talent itself wasnt the issue.

The 05 Spurs were not especially talented. They were one great player 2 borderline all stars...and some guys. Teams with the same level of talent miss the playoffs or get low seeds without much of a fuss being made. The Nuggets have given Melo more help than that. Nash had more. Dirk at times. Lebron last year. Webber. Shaq. Kobe.

It wasnt really all that much help. But they played D, had chemistry, and a winning formula based on duncan on both ends. Doesnt make the rest of the guys especially talented for a dynasty level team.

If you say Dirk would be better off in that setting...you could make the case easily. But Dirk wasnt the kind of player you try to build those teams around really. You have to fill holes not there to fill with Duncan around.

Takes a while to get it right. Cant just assume Dirk plus...a couple borderline all stars and a grab bag of random role players would win if they just...try to play defense. Has to fall just right. As it did last year.

But guys like Duncan make it more likely to work. Cant really just say Duncan had great coaching and defense along with his good guards. Duncan helped provide those things. Not like Pop just miracled them to success when they were a 20 win team with Drob out pre Duncan. Duncan himself provided the things they needed to not just be a sum of their parts.

Cant really throw Dirk in and assume he does the same. I dont see him having any better of a chance than he had on the Mavs. They have contended for 10 years, made 2 finals, won 67 and like 62 and 59 in years they didnt and always been in talks for who would win. They didnt exactly give him lemons and ask for Cristal.

[FF1]

How many players were all-stars WHILE they played with Dirk.

Finley and Nash... and they lost to the GOAT PF Duncan (while Dirk was injured.. although I'm not sure that would have been enough to beat him)

...... who else? Josh Howard? He was a replacement all-star for 1 year but I'll give you that I guess.

Who else?

[MichaelCheazley]

If you count it J kidd the year he was traded for devin harris.

[Kblaze8855]

That reminds me....

How many times has Manu been an all star the last 9-10 years hes been in the league? I know he was in 05 or 06. Ever make it again?

He feels like an all star year in year out type. But im think he made at most...2. Perhaps one.

Im gonna say two because I feel like I heard a lot about him around midseason last year with the Spurs being so hot.

[Jacks3]

How is my list any different then yours? Were some of the guys on my list past their primes? Yes but so were some people on yours. Were some of them only there for a year or two but so were quite a few of yours.
So you honestly think what KG had in Minny is comparable to the type of talent Dirk has played with for the past decade? You must be kidding me...

Anyway, none of this matters. In the end KG was just a flat-out better than Dirk. We're talking about giving you 22-24 pts/14-15 rbs/5-6 asts/2 stls/2 blks with DPOY defense every night. His longevity is similar to Dirk's. His peak is better. Dirk has no case over guys like Barkley/KG unless you're just one of those people who focus way too much on accolades/accomplishments/team success and not how good guys actually are.

[FF1]

If you count it J kidd the year he was traded for devin harris.

Forgot about that. It's not like Kidd was still truely playing at an all-star level especially since his stats dropped off in Dallas, but since it's technically true I'll give you that.

So since 04 Dirk has had two season where he has played with 1 other all star (replacement Josh Howard and an old Kidd) and 5 season with no other all stars. On top of that, until this year his starting Center has been Lafrentz, Shawn Bradley, Diop, Dampier, etc.

People are acting like he's been playing with the leagues best.

[97 bulls]

Forgot about that. It's not like Kidd was still truely playing at an all-star level especially since his stats dropped off in Dallas, but since it's technically true I'll give you that.

So since 04 Dirk has had two season where he has played with 1 other all star (replacement Josh Howard and an old Kidd) and 5 season with no other all stars. On top of that, until this year his starting Center has been Lafrentz, Shawn Bradley, Diop, Dampier, etc.

People are acting like he's been playing with the leagues best.
What about steve nash? The two-time mvp and future hofer.

[raiderfan19]

What about steve nash? The two-time mvp and future hofer.
I think you missed the since 04 part

[FF1]

What about steve nash? The two-time mvp and future hofer.

I said since 04. And I talked about Nash in my earlier list of All-Stars Dirk has played with. With Finley and Nash, they were in the WCF and doing alright against the Spurs when Dirk went down.

But lets not pretend that Nash was playing like an MVP with the Mavs. It's pretty well known that Nash changed into a different monster when he went to the PHX. He has admitted as much and everyone who watched Nash a lot on both teams admit as much as well.

Anyway, year by year here is the all-stars Dirk has played since Dirk himself was an all-star:

2002: Nash
2003: Nash
2004: None
2005: None
2006: None
2007: Josh Howard (replacement)
2008: Jason Kidd (Got voted in while he was with the nets)
2009: None
2010: Jason Kidd (replacement)
2011: None

So as you can see, since 03 there has only been 1 year where Dirk has played with someone who was actually put on the all-star team from initial fan or coach voting. And even that year, he made it in the east where he probably wouldn't have made it in the west.

[yeaaaman]

Aside from the discussion, I still don't understand how you you fluke your way to a championship. This is the NBA, not a half court shot for a million dollars.

[97 bulls]

You guys need to quit the "dirk didn't have good teammates" nonsense. I went back starting from his second year in the league. He's had some damn good players.

00
Finley (one of the better SGs in the league)
Ceballos
Nash (one of the best pgs in the league)

01
Nash
Finley
Juwan Howard

02
Finley
Nash
Van Exel
Raef Lafrenz

03
Finley
Van Exel
Nash
Bell
Lafrenz

04
Finley
Jamison
Nash
Atione Walker

05
Finley
Jason terry
Josh Howard

06
Terry
Howard
Stackhouse

07
Howard
Terry
Stack

08
Kidd (still one of the best pgs in the league.)
Howard
Terry

09
Howard
Terry
Kidd

10
Coron butler
Terry
Marion
Kidd

He's played alongside two pgs that are for sure hofers. Kidd may not be the same player offensively, but he never really was a bigtime scorer to begin with. He's made a name for himself with his ability to run a team and his defense. And 11 was no different.

And he's played 4 seasons with steve nash

[Jacks3]

Yeah, he's been on stacked teams after stacked teams.

[raiderfan19]

Iv never said dirk had no talent around him. I simply said that the talent is comparable to the talent kg had around him

[97 bulls]

Aside from the discussion, I still don't understand how you you fluke your way to a championship. This is the NBA, not a half court shot for a million dollars.
Lol good point. I used fluke for lack of a better term. But let's be honest. the lakers weren't as hungry this year and it showed in the playoffs. They could've lost to an injured hornets team. I'm not gonna poke hole in the rest of the teams dallas played.

[97 bulls]

Iv never said dirk had no talent around him. I simply said that the talent is comparable to the talent kg had around him
I think dirks talent was better. He's played alongside two hofers. And two of the best pgs in the league.

[FF1]

You guys need to quit the "dirk didn't have good teammates" nonsense. I went back starting from his second year in the league. He's had some damn good players.

00
Finley (one of the better SGs in the league)
Ceballos
Nash (one of the best pgs in the league)

01
Nash
Finley
Juwan Howard

02
Finley
Nash
Van Exel
Raef Lafrenz

03
Finley
Van Exel
Nash
Bell
Lafrenz

04
Finley
Jamison
Nash
Atione Walker

05
Finley
Jason terry
Josh Howard

06
Terry
Howard
Stackhouse

07
Howard
Terry
Stack

08
Kidd (still one of the best pgs in the league.)
Howard
Terry

09
Howard
Terry
Kidd

10
Coron butler
Terry
Marion
Kidd

He's played alongside two pgs that are for sure hofers. Kidd may not be the same player offensively, but he never really was a bigtime scorer to begin with. He's made a name for himself with his ability to run a team and his defense. And 11 was no different.

And he's played 4 seasons with steve nash

First of all, Steve Nash wasn't "Steve Nash" when he played for the Mavs. As a matter of fact, the year before he went to the Suns he didn't even make the all-star team! Steve Nash even in his "MVP" form on stacked teams, by the way, hasn't won shit.

Lets look through that list.

Lafrenz - lol
Van Exel and Terry - Both great 6th men.
Jamison and Walker - Not all-star caliber at that point and it was a failed ONE YEAR experiment with Nellie trying to redefine basketball.
Finley after 03 was past his prime
Kidd and Marion and Stackhouse were all past their prime while they've been with Dirk, although they play their rolls VERY well

It's easy to throw names out their and hype them up to their own prime, but if more people had actually been that "good" when they played with Dirk, he would have had a lot more all-star teammates. It's like saying "Last year's Celtics really underachieved! They had Rondo, KG, Allen, Pierce, Shaq, J'Oneal. " You could say Kobe had good teammates during those bad years by saying "ya he had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom" but that doesn't tell the whole story.

[RRR3]

First of all, Steve Nash wasn't "Steve Nash" when he played for the Mavs. As a matter of fact, the year before he went to the Suns he didn't even make the all-star team!

Lets look through that list.

Van Exel and Terry - Both great 6th men.
Jamison and Walker - Not all-star caliber at that point
Finley after 03 was past his prime
Kidd and Marion and Stackhouse were all past their prime while they've been with Dirk, although they play their rolls VERY well

It's easy to throw names out their and hype them up to their own prime, but if more people had actually been that "good" when they played with Dirk, he would have had a lot more all-star teammates.

:facepalm Nonsense. Jamison averaged 25/9, 20/7 and 22/7 in the year years preceding his season with the Mavericks. With the Mavs he still put up 15/6 as the 6th man. Immediately after this season, he went to the Wizards and put up 20/8, 21/9, 20/8, 21/10, and 22/9 in the following 5 seasons. LOL @ you attempting to make him look like some rookie scrub. And Finley still put up 19/5/3 in 04, and 16/4/3 in 05.

[Kblaze8855]

Iv never said dirk had no talent around him. I simply said that the talent is comparable to the talent kg had around him

Thats the kind of statement that invalidates entire topics worth of otherwise reasonable points.

[FF1]

:facepalm Nonsense. Jamison averaged 25/9, 20/7 and 22/7 in the year years preceding his season with the Mavericks. With the Mavs he still put up 15/6 as the 6th man. Immediately after this season, he went to the Wizards and put up 20/8, 21/9, 20/8, 21/10, and 22/9 in the following 5 seasons. LOL @ you attempting to make him look like some rookie scrub.

So because he had other good years, we should give him all-star credit for 15/7 WHILE he played with Dirk? Who cares what he did when he wasn't playing with Dirk.. that's not what we're talking about. If Kobe came to the Mavs next year and averaged 12/5 should we blame Dirk for "zomg you couldn't when with Kobe?" You're only as good as you're playing at the moment, and Jamison was a good 6th man.. not an all-star.

Like I said, it was a failed experiment by Nellie.

[RRR3]

So because he had 22/7 the year before and 20/8 the year after, we should give him all-star credit for 15/7 WHILE he played with Dirk?

Like I said, it was a failed experiment by Nellie.
You said "he wasn't an all-star yet", which would imply that he wasn't in his prime at the time, when he clearly was, regardless of how he was used.

[FF1]

:facepalm Nonsense. Jamison averaged 25/9, 20/7 and 22/7 in the year years preceding his season with the Mavericks. With the Mavs he still put up 15/6 as the 6th man. Immediately after this season, he went to the Wizards and put up 20/8, 21/9, 20/8, 21/10, and 22/9 in the following 5 seasons. LOL @ you attempting to make him look like some rookie scrub. And Finley still put up 19/5/3 in 04, and 16/4/3 in 05.

What exactly did I say about finley. "He was past his prime after 03". That goes hand in hand with what you just posted. Still a good piece, not an all-star and past his prime.

[FF1]

You said "he wasn't an all-star yet", which would imply that he wasn't in his prime at the time, when he clearly was, regardless of how he was used.

No, I didn't say he wasn't an all-star yet. You can't put quotation marks around something and add your own words. Just like the "Finley wasn't good" thing you overlooked what I actually said and you're reading into things. I said "Not all-star caliber at that point". AT THAT POINT he wasn't one. At that point doesn't mean, he wasn't before, or wasn't after.. it means at that point.

Being an all-star isn't a lifetime achievement award. It's saying you were an all-star that year... at that point in time.

The main thing is that Dirk has had 3 other players be all-stars while he was. Finley was an all-star before Dirk was.

Nash, Howard, Kidd. Those are the only players who were all-stars on the same team as Dirk.

[LAClipsFan33]

He is the 1st Euro to lead an NBA team to a title. Nobody can take that away from him and it makes his 1st title a really big deal IMO

[Kblaze8855]

So Jamison...in the middle of his prime...doesnt make the all star game as one of 5 stars on a team(all of their numbers suffering for it) so hes not counted as an all star teammate despite being as good as he was as one?

Get the **** outta here. He was clearly an all star level player.

Stockton put up 15 and 14 a night before he was ever an all star. Gonna make the case Karl had no all star level teammates til he actually made the team? Deron was a star for 3 years before being on the team. But of course he wasnt all star level till 2010. Kevin Johnson put up like 22/12 and didnt make the ASG. So Chambers had no all star teammates that year?

Unless we are pretending that being an all star level player isnt the issue...in which case id just have to ask...

If there is no all star game this season like there wasnt in 99....

Does that mean that if the Mavs trade for Chris Paul Dirk has no all star teammates?

Or will we apply a tad of common sense and call all star level players what they are regardless?

[Jacks3]

Iv never said dirk had no talent around him. I simply said that the talent is comparable to the talent kg had around him
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[MichaelCheazley]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
I think he means in boston.

[FF1]

If there is no all star game this season like there wasnt in 99....

Does that mean that if the Mavs trade for Chris Paul Dirk has no all star teammates?


yes that's clearly the same as Jamison not being considered an all-star because he averaged 15/7 when he played with Dirk.



Stockton put up 15 and 14 a night before he was ever an all star. Gonna make the case Karl had no all star level teammates til he actually made the team? Deron was a star for 3 years before being on the team. But of course he wasnt all star level till 2010. Kevin Johnson put up like 22/12 and didnt make the ASG. So Chambers had no all star teammates that year?


Those players were putting up all-star numbers the years they weren't voted into the all star game, so they were considered all-star caliber. Jamison wasn't putting up all-star numbers when he played with Dirk, so I won't consider him all-star caliber that year. I don't really care about what he did when he wasn't a Mav.

[RRR3]

So Jamison...in the middle of his prime...doesnt make the all star game as one of 5 stars on a team(all of their numbers suffering for it) so hes not counted as an all star teammate despite being as good as he was as one?

Get the **** outta here. He was clearly an all star level player.

Stockton put up 15 and 14 a night before he was ever an all star. Gonna make the case Karl had no all star level teammates til he actually made the team? Deron was a star for 3 years before being on the team. But of course he wasnt all star level till 2010. Kevin Johnson put up like 22/12 and didnt make the ASG. So Chambers had no all star teammates that year?

Unless we are pretending that being an all star level player isnt the issue...in which case id just have to ask...

If there is no all star game this season like there wasnt in 99....

Does that mean that if the Mavs trade for Chris Paul Dirk has no all star teammates?

Or will we apply a tad of common sense and call all star level players what they are regardless?
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[97 bulls]

So Jamison...in the middle of his prime...doesnt make the all star game as one of 5 stars on a team(all of their numbers suffering for it) so hes not counted as an all star teammate despite being as good as he was as one?

Get the **** outta here. He was clearly an all star level player.

Stockton put up 15 and 14 a night before he was ever an all star. Gonna make the case Karl had no all star level teammates til he actually made the team? Deron was a star for 3 years before being on the team. But of course he wasnt all star level till 2010. Kevin Johnson put up like 22/12 and didnt make the ASG. So Chambers had no all star teammates that year?

Unless we are pretending that being an all star level player isnt the issue...in which case id just have to ask...

If there is no all star game this season like there wasnt in 99....

Does that mean that if the Mavs trade for Chris Paul Dirk has no all star teammates?

Or will we apply a tad of common sense and call all star level players what they are regardless?
Exactly. Just because a players role on a team changes, doesn't mean his talent and abilities do.

[ShaqAttack3234]

1 or 5....nothing left to prove.

However....



Those teams were just not that good. Duncan won it all with like a 38% shooting young Manu parker putting up like 15 on 40% shooting Drob and his 7 or 8ppg as a role player and young barely in the NBA Jackson.

The spurs were never winning off talent.

The '03 Spurs don't look like your typical championship team, but it's not a surprise that they won, and it wasn't really back then.

They had the best player in the league, a great coach and had a bunch of different guys step up when it was needed to give Duncan the necessary support. Jackson had some big games in the playoffs, same with Parker and even Malik Rose, Bowen was the best perimeter defender in the league and had a few uncharacteristic scoring games, Robinson was a solid rebounder and defender, especially for his 25 mpg.

They had really good depth. Not one of the more talented champions for sure, but look at the teams they faced. Kidd without an all-star teammate and Dallas without Dirk for the final 3 games, a team that probably only got to the WCF because of C-Webb's injury.

The Lakers were their best competition and even that team was pretty dysfunctional, most of the cast had fallen apart with Fox and even Devean George going down with injuries and Horry shooting 2/38 on 3s in the plays. And the Lakers series was when Duncan had the most help of any series.

The '05 Spurs were really good. Duncan was the best in the NBA, Manu played like a superstar in the playoffs, Parker wasn't quite at all-star level, but certainly a threat, Horry played great for them, Brent Barry was pretty damn good for a limited minutes guy, they had good size, the best perimeter defender in Bowen, capable shooters and were the top defensive team.

A very complete team inside and outside that shut teams down defensively, had a 20+ ppg big man and a 20+ ppg guard as well as another 17+ ppg guard in the playoffs. That stands out as a pretty damn talented.

[FF1]

Exactly. Just because a players role on a team changes, doesn't mean his talent and abilities do.

Lets look at Chris Bosh. His role this year changed and his numbers dropped. A lot of people debated about him deserving an all-star berth this year. If his numbers drop to 15/7 next year, you won't have a lot of people calling him an all-star. Potential be damned.

[Kblaze8855]

yes that's clearly the same as Jamison not being considered an all-star because he averaged 15/7 when he played with Dirk.



Those players were putting up all-star numbers the years they weren't voted into the all star game, so they were considered all-star caliber. Jamison wasn't putting up all-star numbers when he played with Dirk, so I won't consider him all-star caliber that year. I don't really care about what he did when he wasn't a Mav.


Ah so...when the issue is how good the players dirk played with are...you choose to not actually credit players with their ability....and instead rate them by the numbers even if they were on a team with 5 all star level players and therefore didnt get their usual touches. I see.

Let me just go have a dozen drinks or so to numb myself and we can continue down this totally reasonable path free of the speedbumps provided by the common sense im forced to use while sober.

[FF1]

Ah so...when the issue is how good the players dirk played with are...you choose to not actually credit players with their ability....and instead rate them by the numbers even if they were on a team with 5 all star level players and therefore didnt get their usual touches. I see.

Let me just go have a dozen drinks or so to numb myself and we can continue down this totally reasonable path free of the speedbumps provided by the common sense im forced to use while sober.

That entire second paragraph is unnecessary. I've spent my day having completely respectful basketball discussions with people. Try to keep it mature.

And yes, I judge people by how they are playing. It's like saying Dirk had a good series against the Warriors because of past/future success. No, he played like shit. In turn, Jamison didn't play like an all-star level player. If he were put in a different situation, maybe he would have.. Maybe Dirk would have played great in the 07 playoffs had they played someone else.. but that's not what happend. That's all I'm saying.

[97 bulls]

Lets look at Chris Bosh. His role this year changed and his numbers dropped. A lot of people debated about him deserving an all-star berth this year. If his numbers had dropped to 15/7, I'd think a lot of people wouldn't have considered him to be an all-star caliber player THIS YEAR. Potential be damned.
Ok. But does this mean he's any less of a player talent-wise? Or did his role change?

[Jacks3]

shaqattack delivering that ether like kobe on the spurs:bowdown:
:bowdown:

[FF1]

Ok. But does this mean he's any less of a player talent-wise? Or did his role change?

He is not any less talented. His role and production changed.

Obviously, you guys are saying that if the talent/potential is there, they should be judged as such. I'm saying I go more by what ended up happening.

If LeBron got traded to the Mavs but for some reason only put up 15 points a game, it's not really fair to say "WTF Dirk couldn't win with LeBron" as if LeBron was still playing like the player he's capable of.

It's the reason no one is really hating on Wade for losing in the finals even though he played with "the #1 player in the league"...... because LeBron didn't PLAY like "the #1 player in the league" in the Finals.

[RRR3]

He is not any less talented. His role and production changed.

Obviously, you guys are saying that if the talent/potential is there, they should be judged as such. I'm saying I go more by what ended up happening.

If LeBron got traded to the Mavs but for some reason only put up 15 points a game, it's not really fair to say "WTF Dirk couldn't win with LeBron" as if LeBron was still playing like the player he's capable of.

It's the reason no one is really hating on Wade right now even though he had great teammates...... because those teammates didn't PLAY like great players in the Finals.

You left out other things. Is LeBron playing as a pure PG and putting up 12 assists per game? Is LeBron playing a completely different role but still incredibly effective? Is his passing getting Dirk better looks? Etc.

[FF1]

You left out other things. Is LeBron playing as a pure PG and putting up 12 assists per game? Is LeBron playing a completely different role but still incredibly effective? Is his passing getting Dirk better looks? Etc.

Jamison wasn't doing those things on that level. Not enough to call him an all-star, at least. He was a great 6th man, don't get me wrong...

14.8 ppg / 6.3 rpg / 1 assist isn't all star level. I don't care if it's his fault or not.. that ended up being the player Dirk played along side.

The reason that Jamison was such a great 6th man was the 53 fg% and 40% 3-pointers. I appreciate what he did for the Mavs, but I just don't think he played like an all-star that year so I'm not going to call him one.

And lets not pretend that Antawn was some perennial all-star who changed his role like LeBron did to fit into a system. Antawn's first all-star appearance came AFTER he played with the Mavs. I'll admit his stats before brought him in the discussion, but if a borderline all-star players stats drop to 14.8/6.3/1 a game regardless of the reason, I'm not considering that person an all-star that year.

[Kblaze8855]

That entire second paragraph is unnecessary. I've spent my day having completely respectful basketball discussions with people. Try to keep it mature.

And yes, I judge people by how they are playing. It's like saying Dirk had a good series against the Warriors because of past/future success. No, he played like shit. In turn, Jamison didn't play like an all-star level player. If he were put in a different situation, maybe he would have.. Maybe Dirk would have played great in the 07 playoffs had they played someone else.. but that's not what happend. That's all I'm saying.

My maturity ends when im being spoken to disrespectfully. And if you think im slow enough to accept that Jamison was worse for a few months than he was the...rest of his professional life...you are talking to me like I dont have a functional brain or a set of eyes. You are telling me something no rational person could believe and I take it to mean you think im an idiot.

And no it wouldnt be like saying Dirk had a great series vs the warriors.

It would be like saying Jordan didnt have any all star teammates in 1991 because his all star game making teammates didnt make it in 91.

It doesnt mean Pippen wasnt all star level. It means he wasnt named to the game.

I may mention that someone like Reggie only made 5 all star games....doesnt mean I think those are his only all star level seasons.

Jamison was an all star level player. As was Nash. Suit up for the game or not.

We have had people not even in the NBA make the ASG. Injured players make the ASG. But now.....you tell me Jamison doesnt count because he didnt make the game that season....and because of numbers...plenty of people make the ASG with?

Manu made it doing 16/4. Sheed 13/7. Steve Francis 16/5 in 40 minutes. But Jamison puts up 15/7 in under 30 minutes on 54% shooting winning 6th man of the year and hes excluded from an all star teammate list because he wasnt selfish enough to take more shots on a team that didnt need them?

I mean...how dare he play a role and go from 25ppg scorer to 15 a game on a good team for a better shot at winning. Lets punish that. Lets act like hes worse...even though he went on to be a multiple time all star as he aged and got worse...

Jamison doesnt count...because he accepted his role on a star studded team without complaining.

Shit like this is why players create a fuss when asked to come off the bench. People will make them out to be worse or less impressive because in the end they just want the numbers. basketball be damned.

His numbers suffered for his unselfishness.

Next player to refuse to come off the bench for the betterment of his team...I may have to give him a pass.

10 years later someone might actually believe they just briefly got worse....

[97 bulls]

He is not any less talented. His role and production changed.

Obviously, you guys are saying that if the talent/potential is there, they should be judged as such. I'm saying I go more by what ended up happening.

If LeBron got traded to the Mavs but for some reason only put up 15 points a game, it's not really fair to say "WTF Dirk couldn't win with LeBron" as if LeBron was still playing like the player he's capable of.

It's the reason no one is really hating on Wade for losing in the finals even though he played with "the #1 player in the league"...... because LeBron didn't PLAY like "the #1 player in the league" in the Finals.
But did his production change due to his newfound role? That's the difference were having here.

Like in your lebron james example. There's a difference between playing bad, and not having the same statistical production because your role changes.

Me being a bulls fan, I remember an interview ron harper did in 96. In it he says his job on the team isn't to score. Its to play defense. But he added that in a different situation he could still avg 20 ppg. He avg 11 with the bulls at 35 in 99 in just over 30 minutes. So there's no doubt he could've avg 20 ppg if he was 3 years younger with more minutes and a different role. A role that called for him to score.

[DMAVS41]

Eh. I just cant imagine giving Duncan Nash and 3 more all stars and losing in the first round, or him in his prime getting guarded by swingmen putting up like 13/7 on 2-11 shooting getting put out of the playoffs, or anything like that. Not MVP level Duncan which Dirk was in 07.

Dirks teams are said to have been poorly built. For the most part they lacked the same things Dirk lacks. They were pretty much built in his image early then got a lot more success when they swapped out some of the talent and played winning playoff basketball. But the talent itself wasnt the issue.

The 05 Spurs were not especially talented. They were one great player 2 borderline all stars...and some guys. Teams with the same level of talent miss the playoffs or get low seeds without much of a fuss being made. The Nuggets have given Melo more help than that. Nash had more. Dirk at times. Lebron last year. Webber. Shaq. Kobe.

It wasnt really all that much help. But they played D, had chemistry, and a winning formula based on duncan on both ends. Doesnt make the rest of the guys especially talented for a dynasty level team.

If you say Dirk would be better off in that setting...you could make the case easily. But Dirk wasnt the kind of player you try to build those teams around really. You have to fill holes not there to fill with Duncan around.

Takes a while to get it right. Cant just assume Dirk plus...a couple borderline all stars and a grab bag of random role players would win if they just...try to play defense. Has to fall just right. As it did last year.

But guys like Duncan make it more likely to work. Cant really just say Duncan had great coaching and defense along with his good guards. Duncan helped provide those things. Not like Pop just miracled them to success when they were a 20 win team with Drob out pre Duncan. Duncan himself provided the things they needed to not just be a sum of their parts.

Cant really throw Dirk in and assume he does the same. I dont see him having any better of a chance than he had on the Mavs. They have contended for 10 years, made 2 finals, won 67 and like 62 and 59 in years they didnt and always been in talks for who would win. They didnt exactly give him lemons and ask for Cristal.

Really not sure why you are comparing Duncan and Dirk after my post. Of course I can't imagine Duncan doing some of those things. He was better than Dirk. So I'm really confused as to your point.

Totally disagree about some of those spurs teams. Manu and Parker were in 05 were simply better players than pretty much any players Dirk had consistently post 04 when Nash left.

Not to mention the better coaching as well. Pop vs Avery/Nellie is about as one sided as it gets.

I'm not saying Duncan played with significantly better teams. But his teams were no doubt better. Really just a fact.

[DMAVS41]

You guys need to quit the "dirk didn't have good teammates" nonsense. I went back starting from his second year in the league. He's had some damn good players.

00
Finley (one of the better SGs in the league)
Ceballos
Nash (one of the best pgs in the league)

01
Nash
Finley
Juwan Howard

02
Finley
Nash
Van Exel
Raef Lafrenz

03
Finley
Van Exel
Nash
Bell
Lafrenz

04
Finley
Jamison
Nash
Atione Walker

05
Finley
Jason terry
Josh Howard

06
Terry
Howard
Stackhouse

07
Howard
Terry
Stack

08
Kidd (still one of the best pgs in the league.)
Howard
Terry

09
Howard
Terry
Kidd

10
Coron butler
Terry
Marion
Kidd

He's played alongside two pgs that are for sure hofers. Kidd may not be the same player offensively, but he never really was a bigtime scorer to begin with. He's made a name for himself with his ability to run a team and his defense. And 11 was no different.

And he's played 4 seasons with steve nash

Good teammates are different from championship teams. Something of course someone like you could never grasp. Especially when the other elite players in the conference had better teams and better coaching. Pop/Manu/Parker...better on the whole than what Dirk had. Jackson/Kobe/Shaq...better on the whole. The Kings teams. Nash and the Suns in 05.

Its funny because even if you put shaq or duncan on any of those mavs teams....you aren't guaranteed of anything. Shaq lost time and time again with very good teams. It took getting the likes of Kobe and Wade on his team to win. Duncan definitely would have had more success, but I definitely don't think he wins 4 titles. And again...Duncan and Shaq are two top 8 players ever and NOBODY IN THIS THREAD IS CLAIMING DIRK SHOULD BE ANYWHERE NEAR THEM. So again that argument makes no sense.

I just find it comical how the likes of parker and manu are just glossed over from around 03 through the present. And how Shaq continually failed to win titles with teams as good or better than what Dirk had.

Its hard to win titles as the best player. Especially when those teams are absolutely not the best teams in the league or conference.

And again...you act like Dirk didn't have success that matched up with his teams. He's led 11 straight teams made up of completely different players and coaching to 50 or more wins. 3 trips to the WCF. 2 trips to the finals. 1 title.

I love how we over-rate his help and under-rate his amazing success.

[R.I.P.]

That the supporting cast of Billups, Wally, Peeler and Rasho was (significantly) worse than the supporting cast of Nash, Finley, NVE and LaFnretz is one of the popular misconceptions, when explaining KG

[97 bulls]

Good teammates are different from championship teams. Something of course someone like you could never grasp. Especially when the other elite players in the conference had better teams and better coaching. Pop/Manu/Parker...better on the whole than what Dirk had. Jackson/Kobe/Shaq...better on the whole. The Kings teams. Nash and the Suns in 05.

Its funny because even if you put shaq or duncan on any of those mavs teams....you aren't guaranteed of anything. Shaq lost time and time again with very good teams. It took getting the likes of Kobe and Wade on his team to win. Duncan definitely would have had more success, but I definitely don't think he wins 4 titles. And again...Duncan and Shaq are two top 8 players ever and NOBODY IN THIS THREAD IS CLAIMING DIRK SHOULD BE ANYWHERE NEAR THEM. So again that argument makes no sense.

I just find it comical how the likes of parker and manu are just glossed over from around 03 through the present. And how Shaq continually failed to win titles with teams as good or better than what Dirk had.

Its hard to win titles as the best player. Especially when those teams are absolutely not the best teams in the league or conference.

And again...you act like Dirk didn't have success that matched up with his teams. He's led 11 straight teams made up of completely different players and coaching to 50 or more wins. 3 trips to the WCF. 2 trips to the finals. 1 title.

I love how we over-rate his help and under-rate his amazing success.
I don't think dirk is being under appreciated. He's a great player. But the notion that he's won the multiple 50 game season etc with no all-stars and no help is just not genuine.

Not to mention, I didn't mention the depth the mavs have had since nowitzkis tenure with the mavs

[DMAVS41]

My maturity ends when im being spoken to disrespectfully. And if you think im slow enough to accept that Jamison was worse for a few months than he was the...rest of his professional life...you are talking to me like I dont have a functional brain or a set of eyes. You are telling me something no rational person could believe and I take it to mean you think im an idiot.

And no it wouldnt be like saying Dirk had a great series vs the warriors.

It would be like saying Jordan didnt have any all star teammates in 1991 because his all star game making teammates didnt make it in 91.

It doesnt mean Pippen wasnt all star level. It means he wasnt named to the game.

I may mention that someone like Reggie only made 5 all star games....doesnt mean I think those are his only all star level seasons.

Jamison was an all star level player. As was Nash. Suit up for the game or not.

We have had people not even in the NBA make the ASG. Injured players make the ASG. But now.....you tell me Jamison doesnt count because he didnt make the game that season....and because of numbers...plenty of people make the ASG with?

Manu made it doing 16/4. Sheed 13/7. Steve Francis 16/5 in 40 minutes. But Jamison puts up 15/7 in under 30 minutes on 54% shooting winning 6th man of the year and hes excluded from an all star teammate list because he wasnt selfish enough to take more shots on a team that didnt need them?

I mean...how dare he play a role and go from 25ppg scorer to 15 a game on a good team for a better shot at winning. Lets punish that. Lets act like hes worse...even though he went on to be a multiple time all star as he aged and got worse...

Jamison doesnt count...because he accepted his role on a star studded team without complaining.

Shit like this is why players create a fuss when asked to come off the bench. People will make them out to be worse or less impressive because in the end they just want the numbers. basketball be damned.

His numbers suffered for his unselfishness.

Next player to refuse to come off the bench for the betterment of his team...I may have to give him a pass.

10 years later someone might actually believe they just briefly got worse....


Well, you just over-rate Jamison. He's nothing more than a one dimensional regular season star that hasn't had a big shot in his entire career. He's great on a team that is average and he can put up good stats. But for winning? Nothing special.

Not to mention, lets stop ignoring the actual design of a team. It has simply been proven you can't win playing run and gun. Nellie ball just isn't going to beat teams of shaq/kobe....duncan/manu/parker...or the kings. Won't work.

Its all about fit and role. You put iverson, kobe, lebron, bosh on the same team and they are the most talented team in the league, but they dont' fit well together. And they won't win. Its like Lebron and Wade on the same team. It doesn't work at an optimal level....they are two of the best 5 players in the league....bosh is a quality player as well. But it doesn't fit.

So when you put nash/finley/dirk/lafrentz/van exel/najera/walker/howard...all on the same team....its super talented but its not a great team. I don't see why that is fair to blame Dirk for that. You can't judge teams like that.

The "actual team" is being lost here when you start rattling off players. Now, you put Nash/Dirk...and replace Finley with a defensive minded center like Chandler this past year....you've got something and a much better team. But that isn't what happened. You wouldn't surround Duncan with a bunch of bigs that can't shoot. Just like you shouldn't surround Dirk with a bunch of offensive minded players that don't defend or complement Dirk well.

What good is a guy like Jamison next to Dirk when the entire team does what Jamison does? He has very little value in that scenario and that is why he struggled. Well, that and the fact that he's not a playoff player that can be relied on at all.

[DMAVS41]

I don't think dirk is being under appreciated. He's a great player. But the notion that he's won the multiple 50 game season etc with no all-stars and no help is just not genuine.

Not to mention, I didn't mention the depth the mavs have had since nowitzkis tenure with the mavs

But who is saying he's had NO help? He's had one of the best teams each and every year. But he hasn't had the BEST team ever. Nor has he consistently had enough to legitimately compete for a title year in year out.

He's played with one teammate to make an all-nba team. That was Nash. Thats it. Almost every year the team that wins has 2 all nba players. Outside of Duncan and Dirk, its happened pretty much every year of the last 30 or so years. Its a star driven league. You almost always need two top 15 or so players. That is something Dirk has rarely had.

And when he did, he was on a team that played a style that makes winning a title very unlikely.

Its like people think 11 straight seasons over 50 wins is common. Its happened like 4 times in the history of the league. And Dirk's teammates in that stretch are the worst of any team that has done that.

[Jacks3]

So now Dork fans are pointing to things like "fit", but totally ignore it when other posters point out how tremendously balanced the 2011 Mavs were in terms of having shooters, rebounders, perimeter defenders,etc. oh the ironing.

[DMAVS41]

So now Dork fans are pointing to things like "fit", but totally ignore it when other posters point out how tremendously balanced the 2011 Mavs were in terms of having shooters, rebounders, perimeter defenders,etc. oh the ironing.

Who is denying that? What Mavs fans have said that Dirk didn't get a ton of help....I just find it comical when Kobe stans talk about teams and everything and try to under-rate the shit out of his teammates and coaching...who all happen to fit perfectly around him as well.

I have never said Dirk won alone. I've simply said that what Dirk did this post season was pretty legendary and deserves to be understood. He didn't have the best team. He was a huge underdog in two series. He had one of the most clutch playoff runs ever.

Now they are the best team. Now they were stacked. Just hilarious.

[Jacks3]

I find it hilarious how Dork fans act like he hasn't had great teams after great teams year after year, and act like he had shit this year, even though anybody who watched their playoff run could see that his supporting cast played awesome. lol. There you go bringing up Bryant again even though the discussion has nothing to do with him,as I knew you would. Dork fans complaining about talent. Hilarious.

[97 bulls]

Who is denying that? What Mavs fans have said that Dirk didn't get a ton of help....I just find it comical when Kobe stans talk about teams and everything and try to under-rate the shit out of his teammates and coaching...who all happen to fit perfectly around him as well.

I have never said Dirk won alone. I've simply said that what Dirk did this post season was pretty legendary and deserves to be understood. He didn't have the best team. He was a huge underdog in two series. He had one of the most clutch playoff runs ever.

Now they are the best team. Now they were stacked. Just hilarious.
This is in my opinion where you verrate him. Legendary? He didn't really shoot well in the first round. The lakers series was a team effort. He did beast a young okc thunder team. And he didn't exactly set the world on fire vs the heat. I still say I was most impressed with marion and what he did vs lebron james.

What was so legendary about his championship run?

[guy]

Before last year. Dirk Nowitzki was labeled as a guy that couldn't lead a team to a championship. What happens if he never gets back or even never makes it back to the wcf?

Butler should be healthy and they aquired rudy fernandez. So they're better than they were this year. I believe this past year was a fluke. And feel the mavs won't even get back to the wcf.

A fluke doesn't last 103 games. You're ****in being ridiculous.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont think im overrating Jamison at all. He....like Manu and Parker...has been a borderline all star most of his career(lets not discuss that hes not as good as them...im not saying otherwise). But its a joke to me to act ike hes not an all star level player when in his prime(27) he lets go of being a franchise player who does numbers(4 straight 20ppg seasons...25 a game one year...30/11 months...50 points back to back...with only 10 total FTs for the 102 points)....to being a 6th man? And does so quietly, doing all the right things, with no trouble?

And because he was willing to do that on a team full of stars we are gonna act like he wasnt what he was? If we had more young guys like Jamison it wouldnt be so hard for some of the young teams to gel. Im not gonna pretend he got worse for a few months when he just did as he was asked.

Oh and in November 04 Dirk put up 19/6 on 46% in 35 minutes. In December Jamison put up 18/7 on 55% in only 31 minutes. In the 43 games he played 30 or more minutes he put up 18/7 on 57% shooting.

He wasnt some role player stepping up. he was an allstar player doing what he was asked to do.

I think its wrong that people act like he wasnt due to numbers.

Is there really any wonder why so many stars would refuse to be benched or at least not be quiet about it?

People really do downplay you when the numbers drop even if you are the exact same player.

[DMAVS41]

This is in my opinion where you verrate him. Legendary? He didn't really shoot well in the first round. The lakers series was a team effort. He did beast a young okc thunder team. And he didn't exactly set the world on fire vs the heat. I still say I was most impressed with marion and what he did vs lebron james.

What was so legendary about his championship run?

That was the most clutch run I've seen since Jordan. The Lakers was a team effort. Just like every series was. But you still can't grasp how many games the Mavs played that could have gone either way with 5 minutes left. Dirk came through time and time again. He easily outplayed both Gasol and Kobe...coming through in crunch time while Kobe failed. He destroyed the Thunder and one of the best playoff games ever. He led comeback after comeback.

He came through in the finals when it mattered most. Making the game winner in game 2 that saved the series.

Do you realize how absurd you are being when you say the most impressive thing about the Mavs playoff run was ****ing Marion?

[DMAVS41]

I dont think im overrating Jamison at all. He....like Manu and Parker...has been a borderline all star most of his career(lets not discuss that hes not as good as them...im not saying otherwise). But its a joke to me to act ike hes not an all star level player when in his prime(27) he lets go of being a franchise player who does numbers(4 straight 20ppg seasons...25 a game one year...30/11 months...50 points back to back...with only 10 total FTs for the 102 points)....to being a 6th man? And does so quietly, doing all the right things, with no trouble?

And because he was willing to do that on a team full of stars we are gonna act like he wasnt what he was? If we had more young guys like Jamison it wouldnt be so hard for some of the young teams to gel. Im not gonna pretend he got worse for a few months when he just did as he was asked.

Oh and in November 04 Dirk put up 19/6 on 46% in 35 minutes. In December Jamison put up 18/7 on 55% in only 31 minutes. In the 43 games he played 30 or more minutes he put up 18/7 on 57% shooting.

He wasnt some role player stepping up. he was an allstar player doing what he was asked to do.

I think its wrong that people act like he wasnt due to numbers.

Is there really any wonder why so many stars would refuse to be benched or at least not be quiet about it?

People really do downplay you when the numbers drop even if you are the exact same player.

I'm not saying jamison isn't a good player. He's just not as good as his stats. He'll put up great numbers on average teams...but he's not good enough to be doing that on quality teams with a chance to win. He's also one of the worst defensive players I've seen in a long time. Just checkout the Cavs vs Celtics series from 10. Checkout what he did on the Mavs in the playoffs.

I'm not disputing that he was an all star caliber player based on his numbers. I just don't think he's a huge impact player for a team looking to win the title....certainly not a good fit for that Mavs team. As evidenced by his limited role and inability to really make a difference.

But take a look at the 04 Mavs. They are individually talented, but as a team its makes no sense:

Dirk
Nash
Finley
Jamison
Daniels
Walker
Howard
Najera

That team is absolutely not built do win in the playoffs. No center. Terrible perimeter defenders with Nash/Finley/Jamison. Terrible rim protection out of Dirk and Najera. I mean...its just not a good team.

Did they have very good individual players? Sure, but they don't fit well at all.

So you can't just come in and make statements about former all stars and stuff and act like its impact oriented at all. That team above makes no sense in terms of fit and role for winning in the playoffs.

So when I hear that Dirk had Nash/Finley/Jamison/Walker in 04 and lost in the first round like its some terrible deal...I just laugh. Because its clear nobody was watching the Mavs here that year. We weren't good. Nobody expected us to do anything in Dallas. Oh...and Dirk actually played really well in that series. I think he was right at his standard playoff play of something around 26/11/3 on great overall efficiency.

So its just kind of "meh" to me.....can't just ignore the makeup of a team and just rattle of guys like walker/jamison/finley some years. Most of those guys didn't even belong on the team anyway. Give me Nash, Dirk, and a defensive minded center. Now we are talking.

Funny how things work. True Dallas fans have been begging for a legit center for nearly a decade. We finally get one...almost two....and we win the title right away. Interesting how that works.

[knickswin]

This is in my opinion where you verrate him. Legendary? He didn't really shoot well in the first round. The lakers series was a team effort. He did beast a young okc thunder team. And he didn't exactly set the world on fire vs the heat. I still say I was most impressed with marion and what he did vs lebron james.

What was so legendary about his championship run?

Shawn Marion? How many points did he average against the Heat, something like 12, 14 I think and that was all against single teams at most. He rarely even creates his own shot. Useful role player for sure, but the Mavs' offense was ran around Dirk and every other team's defense keyed in on Dirk. No way no way no way was Marion more impressive than Dirk.

[Kblaze8855]

Where do people get the idea that people were not watching majorly televised teams so recently? Its such a baffling idea. where do you think people went in 2004 to have missed out on the Mavs? a team that was on national tv probably 30 times? The team that got hyped to the point the NBA opened the Lakers season against them?

Of course I remember the 04 Mavs. I remember a poster Datznasty making a topic called "2004 mavs. 130 PPG" that ended up being the season topic for them. I remember Miles Berg talking about how good Walker looked. I remember everything about that team, the foil jerseys, the predictions, the jokes, the good runs, and bad and Walkers game winner and Nash vs Marbury topics.

I...and virtually everyone here over age 15...remember 2004.

[DMAVS41]

Where do people get the idea that people were not watching majorly televised teams so recently? Its such a baffling idea. where do you think people went in 2004 to have missed out on the Mavs? a team that was on national tv probably 30 times? The team that got hyped to the point the NBA opened the Lakers season against them?

Of course I remember the 04 Mavs. I remember a poster Datznasty making a topic called "2004 mavs. 130 PPG" that ended up being the season topic for them. I remember Miles Berg talking about how good Walker looked. I remember everything about that team, the foil jerseys, the predictions, the jokes, the good runs, and bad and Walkers game winner and Nash vs Marbury topics.

I...and virtually everyone here over age 15...remember 2004.


If you and others remember them so well, then you wouldn't make statements about it being crazy that they lost in the first round. Its just not a well designed team for the playoffs. You know this...and that is why your post doesn't address my points. It addresses you watching the Mavs.

Which is of course not worth debating really...I just find it odd that people bring up Jamison and 04 as a year of an example of anything. It was simply a team of individually talented players that did not fit well in terms of winning in the playoffs. Nash was battling injuries for much of the 2nd half of the year. Finley regressed quite a bit. There was no interior presence on defense whatsoever. It hat redundant players like Jamison and Walker.

Of course they didn't do anything in the playoffs. It was an average team.

[Kblaze8855]

And when you downplay a team with 5 all stars on it as not built to win...how do you also talk up a bunch of less talented teams built to slow it down and win playoff games as less talented to prop Dirk up?

Dirk has has both. Insane talent and well built playoff teams. If you are gonna act like the talented ones were not built to win and that the less talented ones are...less talented than other teams....

What are you even looking for?

[Kblaze8855]

If you and others remember them so well, then you wouldn't make statements about it being crazy that they lost in the first round. Its just not a well designed team for the playoffs. You know this...and that is why your post doesn't address my points. It addresses you watching the Mavs.

Which is of course not worth debating really...I just find it odd that people bring up Jamison and 04 as a year of an example of anything. It was simply a team of individually talented players that did not fit well in terms of winning in the playoffs. Nash was battling injuries for much of the 2nd half of the year. Finley regressed quite a bit. There was no interior presence on defense whatsoever. It hat redundant players like Jamison and Walker.

Of course they didn't do anything in the playoffs. It was an average team.

Average team? That has the next two MVPs and 3 all stars aside from them and won over 50 games.

Things like that are why you might hear so much about the pre 05 Mavs. People downplaying them.

Try being a fan of a standard really average NBA team and call a team with 5 all stars and 50+ wins in a good conference average. They were a shaky march from winning 55 games.

Dirk didnt have an average team more than like once in the last 10 years if that.

[DMAVS41]

And when you downplay a team with 5 all stars on it as not built to win...how do you also talk up a bunch of less talented teams built to slow it down and win playoff games as less talented to prop Dirk up?

Dirk has has both. Insane talent and well built playoff teams. If you are gonna act like the talented ones were not built to win and that the less talented ones are...less talented than other teams....

What are you even looking for?

I don't follow. How am I downplaying the 04 Mavs?

I'm not propping up Dirk for this past year. He played great and led a team that wasn't as good as some other teams in the league to the title. I've repeatedly said this 11 Mavs team was easily Dirk's best team. Said it all year actually.

I just love hearing you talk about 5 all stars like it means anything in that case. And of course the Mavs didn't have 5 all stars. They had one. But of course you want to credit players for something they aren't even doing on that Mavs. You can't just ignore crap like that.....

Just laughable really. Once again...you just don't know enough about the Mavs in 04 to have this discussion really. And of course I am supposed to ignore the simple fact that Dirk actually played really well in the playoffs....and we still lost easily in 5. But I know that how players actually play shouldn't matter. Its about these 5 phantom all stars.

[vinsanity2756]

My perception of him has already changed dramatically since his amazing playoff run last year. he led that team like a true leader. i wasn't a dirk fan at all, but the guy seriously deserves that title and that finals mvp. Especially his performance in 4th quarters of the playoffs and in particular the finals impressed me the most. making tough shots in the clutch, driving right by haslem, bosh in the finals. Finally I think he wanted to show people, hey i'm not soft, i can deliver at the big stage and he did that. kudos

[DMAVS41]

Average team? That has the next two MVPs and 3 all stars aside from them and won over 50 games.

Things like that are why you might hear so much about the pre 05 Mavs. People downplaying them.

Try being a fan of a standard really average NBA team and call a team with 5 all stars and 50+ wins in a good conference average. They were a shaky march from winning 55 games.

Dirk didnt have an average team more than like once in the last 10 years if that.

See...this is my problem. You don't know. Nash was battling a bad back much of the 2nd half of the year. He wasn't the same player that would win those MVP's. Not health wise and not level of play. The rules changes impacted Nash hugely. It made the game so much easier for him. Nash would wear down so much at the end of games (especially in the playoffs)....

You just don't know little things like that because you weren't a fan of the team. You didn't live in the city. You didn't take the time to watch every single game.

When I say "average"....I mean its a team that is not going to win a title. A team that anyone that watched expected a loss to the Kings.

Just hilarious watching you and others trying to credit that team with having a MVP and 3 all stars. When in fact that team had no mvp...and only 1 all star. Dirk.

Oh...and I just looked up what Dirk did in the playoffs:

27/12/2 on 45/47/86 56% TS 27.5 PER

Yep...I guess with your star player producing like that a team as good as you say should lose in the first round in 5 games. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Kblaze8855]

Really? More "If he wasnt one that year it doesnt count" shit?

Manu has been an all star once in the last 6 years. What is he not noteworthy as an all star type teamate aside from laty year and 2005? I dont care if Pippen was on the 91 As team. Or if Oakley made it in 1990. Or if JameS worthy made it in 85 when he whored everyone in the playoffs.

I dont care who was on the actual team year in and year out when the issue is how good a player is. An all star level player...is an all star level player. I dont care any more if Walker or Nash or Jamison made it in 04 than I care about if Deron made it in 09 or Mchale or Gasol missing it in their primes while healthy.

I dont need to check to see if that made it each year I refer to them as all stars because it has nothing to do with the all star game itself.

Its just about a basic level of play. How this even needs explaining is beyond me.

[Carbine]

We've already had this discussion before. The Mavs have never really given Dirk a realistic championship caliber roster where it makes sense aside from a couple years, talent be damned.

KBlaze is out of his mind if he thinks Dirk has had legit contending teams even half of his years. I think myself and DMavs came to the conclusion that he only had a legit championship cast like two or three years.

For a very logic defined person in arguments, it leaves klaze888555 when it comes to discussing Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

Really? More "If he wasnt one that year it doesnt count" shit?

Manu has been an all star once in the last 6 years. What is he not noteworthy as an all star type teamate aside from laty year and 2005? I dont care if Pippen was on the 91 As team. Or if Oakley made it in 1990. Or if JameS worthy made it in 85 when he whored everyone in the playoffs.

I dont care who was on the actual team year in and year out when the issue is how good a player is. An all star level player...is an all star level player. I dont care any more if Walker or Nash or Jamison made it in 04 than I care about if Deron made it in 09 or Mchale or Gasol missing it in their primes while healthy.

I dont need to check to see if that made it each year I refer to them as all stars because it has nothing to do with the all star game itself.

Its just about a basic level of play. How this even needs explaining is beyond me.

What? A player is either an all star that year or he isn't. What you are doing is propping up players beyond their actual level of play in 04 because those guys weren't nearly as good in 04 as they were in other years.

Total and utter BS and you know it.

So basically the arguments against Dirk are as follows.

Dirk wins in 11: Yea, but his teammates stepped up and played great. They carried him at times and were a huge reason why the Mavs won. So don't give Dirk too much credit because he couldn't have won without them.

I agree that his teammates played great and were huge. But we can't ignore that Dirk made it all happen. He led that team to the title and played great in the process.

Now for the next one...

Dirk loses in 04: Dirk had the MVP of next year and 5 all stars....what a disaster. He lost. Its all on Dirk. Funny isn't it? Why is it all on Dirk when he loses but everyone wants it to be about the team when he wins. And to make matters even more laughable...Dirk played great aside from game 4 iirc in that Kings series. It was a poorly constructed team with some of the players not stepping up at all.

You just can't have it both ways. And you can't continue to count up all star appearances as if that makes a team good. At least use all-nba....something that at the very least isn't worthless. But you of course won't use that...because Dirk has played with only 1 player to make an all nba team...Nash.

[DMAVS41]

We've already had this discussion before. The Mavs have never really given Dirk a realistic championship caliber roster where it makes sense aside from a couple years, talent be damned.

KBlaze is out of his mind if he thinks Dirk has had legit contending teams even half of his years. I think myself and DMavs came to the conclusion that he only had a legit championship cast like two or three years.

For a very logic defined person in arguments, it leaves klaze888555 when it comes to discussing Dirk.

The Mavs had legit chances in:

03 WCF...Dirk got hurt
06
07
11

Chances. Not in one of those years did they have the best team. Not in one of those years were they overwhelming favorites to win. In 06 and 11 they were huge underdogs to get out of the 2nd round.

The fact that anyone could think the 04 Mavs actually had a legit chance to contend is beyond me. The only way anyone could honestly think that is if they didn't watch them at all and did some absurd allstar/mvp count up like kblaze is doing.

[Kblaze8855]

See...this is my problem. You don't know. Nash was battling a bad back much of the 2nd half of the year. He wasn't the same player that would win those MVP's. Not health wise and not level of play. The rules changes impacted Nash hugely. It made the game so much easier for him. Nash would wear down so much at the end of games (especially in the playoffs)....

You just don't know little things like that because you weren't a fan of the team. You didn't live in the city. You didn't take the time to watch every single game.

So...ive not made topics on Nash and mentioned myself that they let him go for Dampier with fans claiming he was getting old and wearing down?

Stop telling me what I know. Especially on matters ive discussed many times both here and elsewhere. Ive posted on my board with several mavs fans for damn near 10 years. Miles Berg was there at the time as well. I used to be on the old dallasbasketball forums around 04 when I and some of them would play yahoo pool.

Ive been on ISh hearing every fan complain about everyone for 10 years. You have nothing to tell me about anyone on any team nearly as major as the Mavs have been.





When I say "average"....I mean its a team that is not going to win a title. A team that anyone that watched expected a loss to the Kings.

Oh so by average you dont mean the word average. Ok then.



Just hilarious watching you and others trying to credit that team with having a MVP and 3 all stars. When in fact that team had no mvp...and only 1 all star. Dirk.

Gone into all that.


Oh...and I just looked up what Dirk did in the playoffs:

27/12/2 on 45/47/86 56% TS 27.5 PER

Yep...I guess with your star player producing like that a team as good as you say should lose in the first round in 5 games. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Feel free to point out anywhere where I said its dirks fault they lost.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

And let's also not forget that the Mavs that year:

Got Walker about a week before the season started so they had very little time to integrate him

Dirk not only suffered the knee injury but also have badly sprained ankles that he was playing on for about a month.

The last 10 games of the season Nellie still hadn't set a rotation and was shuffling people in and out of the starting lineup. In Orlando he finally gave Marquis Daniels the nod as the starting SG and stuck with that through the end of the reg. season.

The Mavs had a lot of talent.Too bad they they were like a jigsaw puzzle with a ton of the same pieces and a few missing ones. The picture never came together.

[DMAVS41]

So...ive not made topics on Nash and mentioned myself that they let him go for Dampier with fans claiming he was getting old and wearing down?

Stop telling me what I know. Especially on matters ive discussed many times both here and elsewhere. Ive posted on my board with several mavs fans for damn near 10 years. Miles Berg was there at the time as well. I used to be on the old dallasbasketball forums around 04 when I and some of them would play yahoo pool.

Ive been on ISh hearing every fan complain about everyone for 10 years. You have nothing to tell me about anyone on any team nearly as major as the Mavs have been.






Oh so by average you dont mean the word average. Ok then.




Gone into all that.



Feel free to point out anywhere where I said its dirks fault they lost.


Uhhhh...what? We've been talking about teams that should be contending. We aren't comparing the Mavs to the bottom 10 teams in the league. In terms of a team trying to contend for a title they were average....not even sure I can go there because no matter what Dirk did or how great he played, that team in 04 simply wasn't good enough to win it all. This thread is about rings...is it not?

Then what are you saying? Its not Dirk's fault they lost, but they should have contended for a title.

It doesn't make sense.

And I'm correcting you because you aren't telling the entire story. You list Nash as the mvp winner the next 2 years. Do you mention anything about his bad back? Of course not. Do you talk about Nash improving the next year in his level of play? Of course not. Do you mention that the rules changed that summer and that Nash was directly impacted by the less physical play? Of course not.

You just want to count up mvp and all star...and go from there.

So please tell me your point. If Dirk isn't to blame and you admit he played well...but you also claim it was a team that should be contending.....then how did they lose in the first round in 5 games?

That really doesn't add up then...does it?

[Kblaze8855]

What? A player is either an all star that year or he isn't. What you are doing is propping up players beyond their actual level of play in 04 because those guys weren't nearly as good in 04 as they were in other years.

Total and utter BS and you know it.

Yes. nash wasnt an all star in 04. Pippen wasnt in 91. Mchale and Worthy were not in 85. Deron wasnt in 09. KJ wasnt doing 22/11. Manu has been one two times in his career.

Yet...when I refer to these people I call them all stars. Why?

Unless someone is just being nitpicky nobody cares enough to look into the specific years they did or did not make it because the word just refers to a star level of player.

Nobody gives a **** that Pistol Pete wasnt in the 1975 ASG.




So basically the arguments against Dirk are as follows.

Dirk wins in 11: Yea, but his teammates stepped up and played great. They carried him at times and were a huge reason why the Mavs won. So don't give Dirk too much credit because he couldn't have won without them.

Fee lfree to point out when I said anything like that in this topic or any other.



I agree that his teammates played great and were huge. But we can't ignore that Dirk made it all happen. He led that team to the title and played great in the process.

Which has what to do with anything ive said? Im not even sure who you are arguing with on that.


Now for the next one...

Dirk loses in 04: Dirk had the MVP of next year and 5 all stars....what a disaster. He lost. Its all on Dirk. Funny isn't it? Why is it all on Dirk when he loses but everyone wants it to be about the team when he wins. And to make matters even more laughable...Dirk played great aside from game 4 iirc in that Kings series. It was a poorly constructed team with some of the players not stepping up at all.


Yea...you are talking to someone in your head.


You just can't have it both ways. And you can't continue to count up all star appearances as if that makes a team good. At least use all-nba....something that at the very least isn't worthless. But you of course won't use that...because Dirk has played with only 1 player to make an all nba team...Nash.

What? there are 15 star players in the NBA at a time?

There are hall of famers not on all NBA teams in their primes.

Calling someone an all star doesnt imply they are top 10 in the NBA. There are 30 or more all star level players at a time.

You people getting so wrapped up in some guys being called all stars...guys who would be all stars months later...or MVPS...or were the previous season....

Its just petty.

The al lstar game can stop existing. Id just call the players....stars. Or really good. Whatever.

All it means.

[DMAVS41]

Yes. nash wasnt an all star in 04. Pippen wasnt in 91. Mchale and Worthy were not in 85. Deron wasnt in 09. KJ wasnt doing 22/11. Manu has been one two times in his career.

Yet...when I refer to these people I call them all stars. Why?

Unless someone is just being nitpicky nobody cares enough to look into the specific years they did or did not make it because the word just refers to a star level of player.

Nobody gives a **** that Pistol Pete wasnt in the 1975 ASG.





Fee lfree to point out when I said anything like that in this topic or any other.




Which has what to do with anything ive said? Im not even sure who you are arguing with on that.




Yea...you are talking to someone in your head.



What? there are 15 star players in the NBA at a time?

There are hall of famers not on all NBA teams in their primes.

Calling someone an all star doesnt imply they are top 10 in the NBA. There are 30 or more all star level players at a time.

You people getting so wrapped up in some guys being called all stars...guys who would be all stars months later...or MVPS...or were the previous season....

Its just petty.

The al lstar game can stop existing. Id just call the players....stars. Or really good. Whatever.

All it means.


Some of that post was addressing other people in this thread. Not just you.

You can call a player whatever you want. I'm still trying to figure out your point.

Do you think the 04 Mavs underachieved? If so, was it Dirk's fault? Do you think that team had a legit shot at the title?

Because now I'm just confused as to what your point even is.

[97 bulls]

That was the most clutch run I've seen since Jordan. The Lakers was a team effort. Just like every series was. But you still can't grasp how many games the Mavs played that could have gone either way with 5 minutes left. Dirk came through time and time again. He easily outplayed both Gasol and Kobe...coming through in crunch time while Kobe failed. He destroyed the Thunder and one of the best playoff games ever. He led comeback after comeback.

He came through in the finals when it mattered most. Making the game winner in game 2 that saved the series.

Do you realize how absurd you are being when you say the most impressive thing about the Mavs playoff run was ****ing Marion?
No you misunderstood. I was refferring to the nba finals only.

[DMAVS41]

No you misunderstood. I was refferring to the nba finals only.

Finals only? Who is claiming Dirk played amazingly well in the finals? I thought he play pretty good...and did step up in the clutch throughout...but it wasn't the best finals ever or anything.

I haven't seen anyone claim his finals was legendary or anything though. I certainly didn't.

But even still....Marion was not more impressive than Dirk in the finals.

[Jacks3]

Dirk has has both. Insane talent and well built playoff teams.
+1

[Jacks3]

T He easily outplayed both Gasol and Kobe...coming through in crunch time while Kobe failed.
:oldlol:

Sorta like how Kobe outplayed him in 2010,2009,2008,2007,2006,2004,2003,2002,2001,2000, 1999?:oldlol:

Sorta like how Dork spent the whole decade failing?:oldlol:

Dork fans acting like it's impressive to "outplay" a 33-yr old dude playing at about 50% health and with 45,000+ min on his legs. :oldlol:

[brisbaneman]

A lot of people seem to forget that the Mavs did this without Butler and Beaubois. And Haywood missing the last 2.5 games of the Finals. And Dirk playing hurt and sick in the Finals.

[97 bulls]

Finals only? Who is claiming Dirk played amazingly well in the finals? I thought he play pretty good...and did step up in the clutch throughout...but it wasn't the best finals ever or anything.

I haven't seen anyone claim his finals was legendary or anything though. I certainly didn't.

But even still....Marion was not more impressive than Dirk in the finals.
Look at it this way. If I was to grade marion and nowitzkis talent and their overall performance in the fianls their grades would be

Dirk
Talent A. Overall finals performance B

Marion
Talent C+. Overall finals performance A

[brisbaneman]

Look at it this way. If I was to grade marion and nowitzkis talent and their overall performance in the fianls their grades would be

Dirk
Talent A. Overall finals performance B

Marion
Talent C+. Overall finals performance A

What about at the end of Game 5 where Marion's offensive stupidity almost cost us the game. by the way i am not disagreeing with your assessement.

[D.J.]

While Dirk did win a ring as the go to guy, he's also had more failures. Dallas choked the 2006 title away, lost in the first round in '07 at 67-15, and lost in the first round in '09 as the #2 seed.

I consider Malone and Stockton in the same boat. They should have at least 1 ring, but they don't because they failed in the playoffs. They were together for many years, but only lost to Jordan twice. They were upset in the 1st round a few times as well.

The only time Barkley's team really choked was '95. In Philly, they were never a contender. They were a respectable team and did upset once or twice in the first round, they often overachieved(especially in '90).

The Mavs had at least 3 instances where they never should have lost.

[nayte]

A representative of one country. A player who toughed it out and never gave up. He did not bolt back to europe when he was struggling. He adjusted his game and became an enigma. He developed a game like no one else's at his frame. He persevered and had constant regular season sucess. His loyalty was shown countless times and he is now rewarded with a ring. He is going to be remembered as a great player and a Hall of famer.

Yep, I can roll with this post.
If only Nash hadn't left...who know's..oh well.

[Sakkreth]

Doesn't really depend only if he wins another or not. More like if heat is going to dominate this decade he will get quite high on all-time list.

[DMAVS41]

While Dirk did win a ring as the go to guy, he's also had more failures. Dallas choked the 2006 title away, lost in the first round in '07 at 67-15, and lost in the first round in '09 as the #2 seed.

I consider Malone and Stockton in the same boat. They should have at least 1 ring, but they don't because they failed in the playoffs. They were together for many years, but only lost to Jordan twice. They were upset in the 1st round a few times as well.

The only time Barkley's team really choked was '95. In Philly, they were never a contender. They were a respectable team and did upset once or twice in the first round, they often overachieved(especially in '90).

The Mavs had at least 3 instances where they never should have lost.

Blaming one player for a loss is absurd. You better give dirk all the credit for any wins then.

06 was not a choke job by Dirk. You can say the team did in the finals, but that is all. We've seen too many elite players play like Dirk did in 06 and win because they had a loaded team. Dirk's 06 finals are so much better than everyone remembers because of 1 horrid game and a missed ft. Not to mention...its a bit unfair to call 06 a failure when the Mavs had no business getting out of the 2nd round.

09? Dirk was amazing and we lost in the 2nd round. I assume you mean 10. Once again Dirk played just as good as he did this year but got no help.

Your post is exactly what I'm talking about. You want to completely ignore how a player actually plays. And then when Dirk does win....people like you want to talk about his team.

Why aren't you talking about how awful Dirk's teammates had been since the 06 finals run? Why not talk about Terry and Howard absolutely choking in game 6 in 06? Why not talk about Terry and Kidd being awful in the playoffs from 08 to 10?

Stuff like that. I've never seen such high standards for a player that everyone insists is over-rated.

[RRR3]

Blaming one player for a loss is absurd. You better give dirk all the credit for any wins then.

06 was not a choke job by Dirk. You can say the team did in the finals, but that is all. We've seen too many elite players play like Dirk did in 06 and win because they had a loaded team. Dirk's 06 finals are so much better than everyone remembers because of 1 horrid game and a missed ft. Not to mention...its a bit unfair to call 06 a failure when the Mavs had no business getting out of the 2nd round.

09? Dirk was amazing and we lost in the 2nd round. I assume you mean 10. Once again Dirk played just as good as he did this year but got no help.

Your post is exactly what I'm talking about. You want to completely ignore how a player actually plays. And then when Dirk does win....people like you want to talk about his team.

Why aren't you talking about how awful Dirk's teammates had been since the 06 finals run? Why not talk about Terry and Howard absolutely choking in game 6 in 06? Why not talk about Terry and Kidd being awful in the playoffs from 08 to 10?

Stuff like that. I've never seen such high standards for a player that everyone insists is over-rated.
Apparently, you've never heard of LeBron James. And Dirk is definitely becoming overrated on ISH at least.

[DMAVS41]

Apparently, you've never heard of LeBron James. And Dirk is definitely becoming overrated on ISH at least.

I've already told you I feel the same way about Lebron.

The three players I think get hated on way too much for certain things in NBA history are Dirk, Lebron, and Wilt.

For some reason its a battle for people to grasp just how good they all are/were.

Overrated it what sense? You feel he's not worthy of being in the top 20? Why? You feel guys like Malone and Barkley were clearly better? Why? What evidence of that is there?

You didn't watch guys like hondo, pettit, baylor.....and comparing dirk to them is messy even if we did watch them play.

I just think its hilarious that people here in this thread hate on Dirk for these so called "playoff failures"...and then turn around and rank Karl Malone over Dirk. LOL....its painfully obvious most people here weren't even watching basketball in the 90's.

[pegasus]

Apparently, you've never heard of LeBron James. And Dirk is definitely becoming overrated on ISH at least.

Lebron, supposedly, had a chance to become the GOAT, and that's why he is being held to a high standard.

Dirk, on the other hand, has won a chip by being the undisputed best player on the court against two other superstars, and yet some people are still trying to label him as a choker and over-rated.

Those are two very different things.

[RRR3]

I've already told you I feel the same way about Lebron.

The three players I think get hated on way too much for certain things in NBA history are Dirk, Lebron, and Wilt.

For some reason its a battle for people to grasp just how good they all are/were.

Overrated it what sense? You feel he's not worthy of being in the top 20? Why? You feel guys like Malone and Barkley were clearly better? Why? What evidence of that is there?

You didn't watch guys like hondo, pettit, baylor.....and comparing dirk to them is messy even if we did watch them play.

I just think its hilarious that people here in this thread hate on Dirk for these so called "playoff failures"...and then turn around and rank Karl Malone over Dirk. LOL....its painfully obvious most people here weren't even watching basketball in the 90's.

I'm not faulting Dirk for his "playoff failures" I just don't think he's inarguably top 20 all time.
Players who are simply just better than Dirk all-time IMO:
MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
TD
Kobe
Russell
Big O
West
Dr. J
Moses Malone
Karl Malone
Barkley
KG
The Admiral

That's 18 right there. Then you have Mikan and Petit, who are harder to rank (especially Mikan) because of when they played. I would argue both of them have a great argument to be over Dirk though. So that's 20 who at least have strong arguments over Dirk. Then you have guys like Isiah Thomas, Elgin Baylor, etc. who are also debatable. And you have two guys (LBJ and Wade) who almost certainly will surpass Dirk.

[Legends66NBA7]

DMAVS with 7,777 posts on 11.11.11

http://vegetarianstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/7-11-store-front.jpg

I apologize for the randomness, just thought it was cool.

[RRR3]

DMAVS with 7,777 posts on 11.11.11

http://vegetarianstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/7-11-store-front.jpg
That is absolutely positively mindblowingly apeshit horsefeathers ****ing awesome! :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :pimp: :pimp: :pimp:

[Legends66NBA7]

That is absolutely positively mindblowingly apeshit horsefeathers ****ing awesome! :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :pimp: :pimp: :pimp:

You heard it from me first :D

[pegasus]

DMAVS with 7,777 posts on 11.11.11

http://vegetarianstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/7-11-store-front.jpg

I apologize for the randomness, just thought it was cool.

That's hilarious!:lol :lol :lol

He should go gamble.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You heard it from me first :D

I don't get it :hammerhead:

[pegasus]

^^^^^

DMAVS with 7,777 posts on 11.11.11

http://vegetarianstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/7-11-store-front.jpg

I apologize for the randomness, just thought it was cool.

And the name of the store is Seven Eleven.

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't get it :hammerhead:

Pretty much what pegasus said. Now all DMAVS has to do is not post for the rest of the day to keep this random theme going for another 10+ hours :pimp:

[senelcoolidge]

It would not change my perception of him. Winning one ring is good enough..he's lucky to have one. It's not easy. It doesn't take away from what a great player he is.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not faulting Dirk for his "playoff failures" I just don't think he's inarguably top 20 all time.
Players who are simply just better than Dirk all-time IMO:
MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
TD
Kobe
Russell
Big O
West
Dr. J
Moses Malone
Karl Malone
Barkley
KG
The Admiral

That's 18 right there. Then you have Mikan and Petit, who are harder to rank (especially Mikan) because of when they played. I would argue both of them have a great argument to be over Dirk though. So that's 20 who at least have strong arguments over Dirk. Then you have guys like Isiah Thomas, Elgin Baylor, etc. who are also debatable. And you have two guys (LBJ and Wade) who almost certainly will surpass Dirk.

I don't think Dirk is without a doubt top 20 either. He's in my top 20 but I'm not going to go crazy over some people ranking him outside of that.

But look at your post. You say those 18 are just clearly better. I'm sorry, but that just isn't true. At the very least the following guys are debatable:

KG
Robinson
Malone
Barkley

That is 4 right there. Absolutely debatable. I'd add Hondo, Baylor, Mikan, and Pettit as debatable as well.

Sure, Lebron and Wade will most likely pass him....but they haven't yet. I just find it interesting because of this perception that even a guy like Dr. J was just definitely better than Dirk. Coming from someone that watched them both play, I disagree. I'd start a franchise with Dirk over Dr. J. I'd start one with Dirk over Moses probably as well.

For some reason, you will think I'm being crazy for saying that. But in reality its not crazy at all.

[raiderfan19]

Id agree with dirk over dr j being at least arguable(i think its pretty clear cut actually) but theres no real argument for dirk over moses


Edit- people do realize that dr j was a 22/7/4 guy for his career in a much faster paced league right? Thats also with no serious decline and starting at 26 so those are basically just his prime numbers.

[Darius]

He has nothing more to prove IMO.

[DaPerceive]

He has nothing more to prove IMO.
Pretty much. I don't think he can do much more than what he has already done. I don't think at his age he will start to miraculously become a better rebounder, defender, passer, etc. either. He is what he is. Winning more rings would be sweet for Dirk, but it's not like his ranking will go down if he doesn't win anymore.

[R.I.P.]

But take a look at the 04 Mavs. They are individually talented, but as a team its makes no sense:

Dirk
Nash
Finley
Jamison
Daniels
Walker
Howard
Najera



It

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=R.I.P.]It

[DMAVS41]

Id agree with dirk over dr j being at least arguable(i think its pretty clear cut actually) but theres no real argument for dirk over moses


Edit- people do realize that dr j was a 22/7/4 guy for his career in a much faster paced league right? Thats also with no serious decline and starting at 26 so those are basically just his prime numbers.

Let me clarify. I would not rank Dirk over Moses. However, if I had to start a franchise with one of them. Its a lot closer for me than the career ranking. That was my point. I don't know who I would choose. Gun to my head...I probably take Moses, but its really really close for me.

And that isn't being crazy. Moses was a beast and obviously an all time great. But so was/is Dirk. Both guys are absolutely championship caliber number 1 options. And both guys are absolutely not on the level of the shaq/dunncan/bird/hakeem range of players in my opinion.

Is there a gap between them? Maybe...tough to say. Moses is not without some playoff let downs...or at the least coming up short at times. He played with some pretty stacked teams on the sixers with the likes of dr. j, toney, cheeks, (young barkley), jones..etc.

While I often think older players are written off too easily and don't get enough credit some times. I also think this new age doesn't understand that if they held some of the older legends to the same standards the this era of players are held to.....the legends would have quite a few "black marks" on their resumes.

[nycelt84]

To answer the original question he would be the Rick Barry of this era.

[D.J.]

Blaming one player for a loss is absurd. You better give dirk all the credit for any wins then.


Never blamed one player for the loss. It's a team effort, but Dirk is the star of the team.



06 was not a choke job by Dirk. You can say the team did in the finals, but that is all. We've seen too many elite players play like Dirk did in 06 and win because they had a loaded team. Dirk's 06 finals are so much better than everyone remembers because of 1 horrid game and a missed ft. Not to mention...its a bit unfair to call 06 a failure when the Mavs had no business getting out of the 2nd round.


Dirk is the star of the team. Therefore, he gets the bulk of the criticism in any failure. And '06 was a choke job. You were up 13 with 6 to go in game 3. 6 minutes from a commanding 3-0 lead. Even then, you were still up 2-1. You lost 4 consecutive games after winning the first 2 with relative ease. That's an epic fail.



Your post is exactly what I'm talking about. You want to completely ignore how a player actually plays. And then when Dirk does win....people like you want to talk about his team.


And this applies to me how? Putting up numbers doesn't mean much if you lose. Dirk played well in '06, but he was also the star of a team that failed epically in the Finals. And people like you like to make judgments and false accusations about other people where you can't prove them.



Why aren't you talking about how awful Dirk's teammates had been since the 06 finals run? Why not talk about Terry and Howard absolutely choking in game 6 in 06? Why not talk about Terry and Kidd being awful in the playoffs from 08 to 10?


Now you're just being oversensitive. Bottom line is the Mavs weren't getting it done. It's not all Dirk's fault, but he's the leader of the team. MJ got crucified for not winning in '90. Ewing got crucified for not bringing a title to NY. Stockton and Malone got crucified for failing numerous times in the playoffs. Barkley had several chances as well and he failed. Why should I or anyone else give Dirk a free pass?



Stuff like that. I've never seen such high standards for a player that everyone insists is over-rated.


What high standards? He's being held to the same standard as the other players at his level(Ewing, Barkley, Stockton, Malone) that never won. Since '01, you've won at least 50 games every year, 60+ 3 times, and the WCF 3 times. And until this year, never won a title. Dirk is a great player, but he and the Mavs failed more times than they succeeded. For a team of that calibur, they should have won a minimum of 2-3 titles.

[raiderfan19]

Jordan wasnt crucified for 90 after he won the other titles. Im not saying dirk is jordan(clearly he isnt) but neither are the criticisms of ewing/barkley/malones playoff failures analogous to dirk because they never won one

[D.J.]

Jordan wasnt crucified for 90 after he won the other titles.


Not the point. Point is he was the best player in the game and failed when it mattered. And even then, Dirk failed and on higher levels than Jordan ever did.



Im not saying dirk is jordan(clearly he isnt) but neither are the criticisms of ewing/barkley/malones playoff failures analogous to dirk because they never won one


Yes they are. Barkley you can debate not putting on that list because he really only had maybe 3 legitimate shots at winning the whole thing. Unlike the casual fan and Dirk nut huggers, I'm not going to boost him to some higher level because he finally won a ring. He's a great player, but he's failed many times. '03(though he did get hurt), '05(series tied 2-2 with Phoenix, led in the 4th of game 5 and couldn't get it done), '06(led 2-0, up 13 halfway through the 4th in game 3), '07(lost 1st round at 67-15), '10(lost in the 1st round as the #2 seed)

[DMAVS41]

Never blamed one player for the loss. It's a team effort, but Dirk is the star of the team.





Dirk is the star of the team. Therefore, he gets the bulk of the criticism in any failure. And '06 was a choke job. You were up 13 with 6 to go in game 3. 6 minutes from a commanding 3-0 lead. Even then, you were still up 2-1. You lost 4 consecutive games after winning the first 2 with relative ease. That's an epic fail.





And this applies to me how? Putting up numbers doesn't mean much if you lose. Dirk played well in '06, but he was also the star of a team that failed epically in the Finals. And people like you like to make judgments and false accusations about other people where you can't prove them.





Now you're just being oversensitive. Bottom line is the Mavs weren't getting it done. It's not all Dirk's fault, but he's the leader of the team. MJ got crucified for not winning in '90. Ewing got crucified for not bringing a title to NY. Stockton and Malone got crucified for failing numerous times in the playoffs. Barkley had several chances as well and he failed. Why should I or anyone else give Dirk a free pass?





What high standards? He's being held to the same standard as the other players at his level(Ewing, Barkley, Stockton, Malone) that never won. Since '01, you've won at least 50 games every year, 60+ 3 times, and the WCF 3 times. And until this year, never won a title. Dirk is a great player, but he and the Mavs failed more times than they succeeded. For a team of that calibur, they should have won a minimum of 2-3 titles.

Duncan and Shaq would have maybe won 2 to 3 titles. Nobody else of this era is winning more than 2. Its hilarious how over-rated some of those teams have been.

The Mavs had legit chances to win in:

03
06
07
11

Thats all. In 03 Dirk got hurt. In 06 they were huge underdogs to even get out of the 2nd round. In 11 they were huge underdogs to even get out of the 2nd round.

[D.J.]

[/B]

Duncan and Shaq would have maybe won 2 to 3 titles. Nobody else of this era is winning more than 2. Its hilarious how over-rated some of those teams have been.

The Mavs had legit chances to win in:

03
06
07
11

Thats all. In 03 Dirk got hurt. In 06 they were huge underdogs to even get out of the 2nd round. In 11 they were huge underdogs to even get out of the 2nd round.


I don't want to hear excuses. You failed epically in '06. I don't care if you had no business beating San Antonio. You failed EPICALLY at the biggest stage. You then followed that up by winning 67 games and losing to a 42-40 team that had to win their final 5 games and 9 of their last 10 just to make the playoffs. Since '06, Dallas should have 3 titles. No excuses. And as well as Dirk played, he has so many failures against his number of times he succeeded. It would be one thing if Dallas had no legitimate shot much like nearly all of Barkley's time in Philly, but we're talking about choking in the Finals, losing in the first round as the #1 seed, and also the #2 seed. And they could have very easily beaten Phoenix in '05 as well.

[raiderfan19]

Not the point. Point is he was the best player in the game and failed when it mattered. And even then, Dirk failed and on higher levels than Jordan ever did.Yes they are. Barkley you can debate not putting on that list because he really only had maybe 3 legitimate shots at winning the whole thing. Unlike the casual fan and Dirk nut huggers, I'm not going to boost him to some higher level because he finally won a ring. He's a great player, but he's failed many times. '03(though he did get hurt), '05(series tied 2-2 with Phoenix, led in the 4th of game 5 and couldn't get it done), '06(led 2-0, up 13 halfway through the 4th in game 3), '07(lost 1st round at 67-15), '10(lost in the 1st round as the #2 seed)
Your logic is so bad its just hard to argue with. He failed in 03 because he got hurt in a series we still didnt have home court in against duncan at his absolute best? In 05 they played a CLEARLY better phoenix team. Nash, jj, qrich, marion, amare. That is a ridiculous starting 5 and unlike the mavs of the year before, they actually fit together well.

06 yes they failed but A) hed been absolutely amazing to get them there and B) to pretend like the refs didnt win that series for miami is just a joke.

07 was absolutely a failure on his part but by the same token everyone has failures. 2010 wasnt remotely a failure on his part. The mavs were only 5 games better than the spurs and he was absolutely amazing in that series. 27/8/3 on 55/57/95 shooting.

[DMAVS41]

I don't want to hear excuses. You failed epically in '06. I don't care if you had no business beating San Antonio. You failed EPICALLY at the biggest stage. You then followed that up by winning 67 games and losing to a 42-40 team that had to win their final 5 games and 9 of their last 10 just to make the playoffs. Since '06, Dallas should have 3 titles. No excuses. And as well as Dirk played, he has so many failures against his number of times he succeeded. It would be one thing if Dallas had no legitimate shot much like nearly all of Barkley's time in Philly, but we're talking about choking in the Finals, losing in the first round as the #1 seed, and also the #2 seed. And they could have very easily beaten Phoenix in '05 as well.

Oh my god.

You can't ignore level of play. You are punishing Dirk for being a great regular season player that almost never misses regular season games and has grossly overachieved. 06 is an epic failure? The Mavericks were huge underdogs to get out of the 2nd round. We overachieved that year dumb ****. Its not an excuse. Its just a fact.

We underachieved in 07 and 10. Dirk deserves to get hammered for 07, but I don't want to hear and bs about 10. Dirk was flat out great in 10 in the playoffs.

You have to judge players on how they play as well. You can't just ignore everything else to make a bs argument about 1 player when so many different things impact winning and losing. Just hilarious.

3 titles since 06? You must be joking. Dirk has never had even close to the best team in the league. 07 is probably the closest the Mavs ever were to the best team in the league, and it was a team that of course didn't have another all nba player or reliable performers. So absurd what the standards are.

I'll say it again. Dirk has never had the best team in the league at his side. He played for Nelson...who has a run and gun style that has no chance whatsoever to win a title. He played for Avery that got absolutely destroyed by Pat Riley in the finals and lost his ****ing mind in 07.

Failures? Dirk has dragged this franchise to 11 straight 50 season wins, 3 wcf trips, 2 finals, and a title. He's done that with nowhere near the help that Shaq/Kobe have had. Never had teams as good as the 02 Kings. Didn't have guys as good as Parker/Manu...or a coach like Pop.

Winning titles is hard enough in the nba with the best team...let alone always having to upset a team to win. You say 3 titles at least. Do you understand that in order to win 3 titles the Mavs would have had to win multiple series each year as underdogs other than 07? 07 is the only year the Mavs would have been favored in each series. Not any other year. Not one. The title they just won....they were barely favorites to make it out of the first round.

You are penalizing Dirk for dragging good rosters to better records than they should have ever had year in year out. Funny how the Mavs go 2-7 without Dirk this year.

I just laugh when I hear the "epic failure" stuff. Dirk has one of the most successful careers ever. 11 straight 50 win seasons. Go find me a list of all the star players that have done that before. Then compare Dirk's help to the others....its laughable aside from Duncan....but even Duncan has had more help and better coaching.

Go ahead, you said its all about the star. Please list out the other star players that have led teams to 11 straight 50 win seasons...then compare the supporting casts and coaching....it will be ****ing laughable.

[D.J.]

Your logic is so bad its just hard to argue with. He failed in 03 because he got hurt in a series we still didnt have home court in against duncan at his absolute best? In 05 they played a CLEARLY better phoenix team. Nash, jj, qrich, marion, amare. That is a ridiculous starting 5 and unlike the mavs of the year before, they actually fit together well.


There's nothing wrong with my logic. I admitted Dirk was hurt in '03 and that's the only series I'm willing to give him even somewhat of a free pass.

Phoenix was not clearly better in '05. The series was tied 2-2 and Dallas blew a 4th quarter lead in game 5. Game 6 went to OT with Dallas once again blowing a 4th quarter lead. So no, Phoenix was not clearly better. Dallas choked away both games and should have won both. It was actually a pretty evenly matched series.



06 yes they failed but A) hed been absolutely amazing to get them there and B) to pretend like the refs didnt win that series for miami is just a joke.


A)He played exceptionally against San Antonio, but that doesn't remove any fault from him for not beating Miami. B)The refs were certainly questionable, but the refs did not take away their 13 point 4th quarter lead while leading 2-0 series lead. The refs did not hand them 3 consecutive losses following game 3. They failed at the biggest stage. The questionable officiating was no where near the level of that game 6 '02 WCF game.



07 was absolutely a failure on his part but by the same token everyone has failures. 2010 wasnt remotely a failure on his part. The mavs were only 5 games better than the spurs and he was absolutely amazing in that series. 27/8/3 on 55/57/95 shooting.


Everyone has a playoff year or two that they handed away where they should have won. Dirk did it at least 4 times and I'm not even counting '03. He's a poor man's Peyton Manning. An elite player(though not the best at his position like Peyton is) and numerous choke jobs in the playoffs. Even though Dirk won a ring as the alpha dog, I can't overlook his numerous choke jobs. It's not like it happened once or twice.

[raiderfan19]

How is it a choke to lose to a more talented team with home court advantage and a better record? Yes your logic is bad.

By the logic you are using, 93/94/95 were 3 absolute choke jobs by barkley in a row. They had a better record than the team they lost to in every season. But yet those dont count?

[DMAVS41]

There's nothing wrong with my logic. I admitted Dirk was hurt in '03 and that's the only series I'm willing to give him even somewhat of a free pass.

Phoenix was not clearly better in '05. The series was tied 2-2 and Dallas blew a 4th quarter lead in game 5. Game 6 went to OT with Dallas once again blowing a 4th quarter lead. So no, Phoenix was not clearly better. Dallas choked away both games and should have won both. It was actually a pretty evenly matched series.





A)He played exceptionally against San Antonio, but that doesn't remove any fault from him for not beating Miami. B)The refs were certainly questionable, but the refs did not take away their 13 point 4th quarter lead while leading 2-0 series lead. The refs did not hand them 3 consecutive losses following game 3. They failed at the biggest stage. The questionable officiating was no where near the level of that game 6 '02 WCF game.





Everyone has a playoff year or two that they handed away where they should have won. Dirk did it at least 4 times and I'm not even counting '03. He's a poor man's Peyton Manning. An elite player(though not the best at his position like Peyton is) and numerous choke jobs in the playoffs. Even though Dirk won a ring as the alpha dog, I can't overlook his numerous choke jobs. It's not like it happened once or twice.

Do you see how you go from team to player each time. You listed 2010 as a choke job. Dirk did not choke in that series. You clearly don't even know the definition. He played awesome and was never even in a position to choke.

You can say he choked in 07....although it really was just him not playing well against a team that was a terrible matchup and did everything they could to stop him and make everyone else beat them. Which of course the rest of Dirk's team could never do to begin with.

06 isn't a failure because it took a legendary series against the Spurs and another legendary game 5 against the Suns to even make the finals.

Do you realize you are calling Dirk a choker when he's undefeated in game 7's. He's one of the most clutch players of this era and all time statistically. He's the best elimination game player of this era and easily one of the 3 or so best ever.

Like I said, you logic is so flawed. When Dirk wins...its about the team. When Dirk loses...its all about the star.

You are using Dirk's greatness against him. If he was a lesser player, some of those Mavs teams wouldn't have won 45 games and wouldn't have been considered anything more than an average team with no chance to do anything.

Its the same thing that happened to Lebron on the Cavs. Play great and over achieve...and then have people hate on him for not leading a squad that really has no business contending to the title. Its a horribly flawed stance and argument.

And you don't get 11 straight 50 win seasons or some of the best playoff numbers of all time by being a choker. You don't lead a huge underdog team to the finals twice and win once against one of the most stacked teams of the decade ever by being a choker. You don't lead 4th qtr comeback after 4th qtr comeback by being a choker.

You don't have the best record in tight games of this era. You don't perform as well or better than any player not named carmelo anthony in game winning situations.

But we should ignore all of Dirk's play in favor of a team of guys like terry and kidd routinely sucking ass in the playoffs for a 4 year stretch.

You know who choked in 06? Avery ****ing Johnson and Terry and Howard. Take a look at the end of game 5...you'll see Dirk making a potential game winner on Shaq before wade is awarded some ft's. You'll see Dirk playing great in game 6 and terry and howard absolutely sucking ass.

But lets ignore it all pretend like teammates don't matter. :facepalm

[raiderfan19]

You might also wanna chill out saying that barkley had no chance to win in philly. He played with a prime moses malone and andrew toney and an aging but still effective dr j and mcadoo. He just didnt get it done


Edit- what i still dont get is how you are giving him no credit for the title that he did win. Since 1980 there have been maybe 12-13 guys whove won a title as the clear best player on their team.

Working backwards
Dirk
Kobe
Kg(though some would argue pierce i think its clear enough to give him credit)
Wade
Duncan
Shaq
Jordan
Dream
Isiah thomas(note this is 9 guys since the start of the 90s)
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Moses
Elvin hayes

[D.J.]

You can't ignore level of play. You are punishing Dirk for being a great regular season player that almost never misses regular season games and has grossly overachieved. 06 is an epic failure? The Mavericks were huge underdogs to get out of the 2nd round. We overachieved that year dumb ****. Its not an excuse. Its just a fact.


No, I'm punishing Dirk for being a great regular season performer that failed numerous times in the playoffs. That's what it is. I don't care if they had no business beating San Antonio in '06. You beat Miami the first 2 games with ease, then you lose the next 4. One of those games involved(game 3 oddly enough) being up 13 halfway through the 4th and you couldn't seal the deal. You were in the Finals(whether you deserved it or not) and you failed in almost the biggest possible way. It's not an excuse. It's just a fact.



We underachieved in 07 and 10. Dirk deserves to get hammered for 07, but I don't want to hear and bs about 10. Dirk was flat out great in 10 in the playoffs.


Underachieving is not an excuse and that's what you're using it as. Regardless of Dirk playing well in '10, you lost as the #2 seed and you were the better team. You had a team of Kidd/Dirk/Butler/Marion/Terry/Dampier/Haywood, none of whom missed any of the games and you still couldn't win. You didn't have a scrub team. You had a solid team, probably the only team that year that could have beaten LA and you choked it away.



You have to judge players on how they play as well. You can't just ignore everything else to make a bs argument about 1 player when so many different things impact winning and losing. Just hilarious.


I've admitted Dirk played well. But you can't ignore intangibles. If Dirk was as great as he was, why did it take until '11 and numerous failures to finally win? I'm happy for him that he won, but winning 1 ring doesn't overshadow his numerous f*ck ups.



3 titles since 06? You must be joking. Dirk has never had even close to the best team in the league. 07 is probably the closest the Mavs ever were to the best team in the league, and it was a team that of course didn't have another all nba player or reliable performers. So absurd what the standards are.


Now you're going to bring down his supporting cast to make him look good. 3 titles since '06? Very reasonable. '06, '07, and '11. There's your 3 titles. And certainly no less than 2. Dallas had stacked teams for years.

In '03, it was Dirk/Nash/Finley/Van Exel/LaFrentz/Bradley/Najera/Bell. you had scoring, shot blocking, jump shooting big men, and speed.

In '05, it was Dirk/Finley/Stackhouse/Howard/Terry/Van Horn/Dampier/Daniels. Once again, good scoring, jump shooting big men, guys that could run, and big men off the bench that could block shots and take up fouls. You pulled the first round series out of your ass and then you choked away the Phoenix series.

In '06, you had Dirk/Terry/Howard/Stackhouse/Harris/Dampier/Griffin/Diop. You finally got that shot blocking big man you needed and still couldn't do it.

In '07, you had the same team minus Griffin and Dampier playing fewer minutes and nothing.

In '10, it was Dirk/Kidd/Marion/Butler. The most stacked team out of any year and a first round exit.



I'll say it again. Dirk has never had the best team in the league at his side. He played for Nelson...who has a run and gun style that has no chance whatsoever to win a title. He played for Avery that got absolutely destroyed by Pat Riley in the finals and lost his ****ing mind in 07.


I beg to differ. You were tied for the best record in '03 at 60-22. You had Dirk/Nash/Finley with 2 of the 3 in their primes and failed. You had a stacked team in '06 that won 60 and you failed. you had virtually the same team in '07 that went 67-15 and you failed. You had easily the best starting 5 in the league in '10 and you failed. No excuses. These are all facts.



Failures? Dirk has dragged this franchise to 11 straight 50 season wins, 3 wcf trips, 2 finals, and a title. He's done that with nowhere near the help that Shaq/Kobe have had. Never had teams as good as the 02 Kings. Didn't have guys as good as Parker/Manu...or a coach like Pop.


:facepalm That's nice he won 50+ games all the time. I didn't see him winning multiple rings like Shaq/Kobe and Duncan. And not as much help as Shaq/Kobe? :facepalm :facepalm I already pointed out his supporting casts. Some of the best he could have asked for. Guys that could score, guys that could run, jump shooting big men, good defensive centers, garbage big men that could eat up fouls and keep Dirk out of foul trouble. And what he does have to show for it? Until this past season, nothing.



Winning titles is hard enough in the nba with the best team...let alone always having to upset a team to win. You say 3 titles at least. Do you understand that in order to win 3 titles the Mavs would have had to win multiple series each year as underdogs other than 07? 07 is the only year the Mavs would have been favored in each series. Not any other year. Not one. The title they just won....they were barely favorites to make it out of the first round.


I said 2-3. Reading comprehension is your friend. the best players face adversity and fight through it to get to the top. There's no excuses for failing when you have home court, are an elite player, and have solid supporting casts.



You are penalizing Dirk for dragging good rosters to better records than they should have ever had year in year out. Funny how the Mavs go 2-7 without Dirk this year.


If they were good rosters(which they clearly were), their good records were going to happen. Bottom line is they failed numerous times.



I just laugh when I hear the "epic failure" stuff. Dirk has one of the most successful careers ever. 11 straight 50 win seasons. Go find me a list of all the star players that have done that before. Then compare Dirk's help to the others....its laughable aside from Duncan....but even Duncan has had more help and better coaching.


He had regular season success. That's nice. So did Malone, so did Stockton, so did Ewing. The one thing they all have in common...postseason choke jobs. Their teams lost when it mattered. And it's not like they were on teams that had no chance of winning. They were on teams that made the Conference Finals and even the Finals.



Go ahead, you said its all about the star. Please list out the other star players that have led teams to 11 straight 50 win seasons...then compare the supporting casts and coaching....it will be ****ing laughable.


We're already know you're a homer. The only thing that's laughable is you blindly defending Dirk.

[D.J.]

How is it a choke to lose to a more talented team with home court advantage and a better record? Yes your logic is bad.

By the logic you are using, 93/94/95 were 3 absolute choke jobs by barkley in a row. They had a better record than the team they lost to in every season. But yet those dont count?


Another one with reading comprehension problems? Show me where I said '94. And no, my logic is perfectly fine. Read my other posts and you'll see.



You might also wanna chill out saying that barkley had no chance to win in philly. He played with a prime moses malone and andrew toney and an aging but still effective dr j and mcadoo. He just didnt get it done


In '85, Barkley was a rookie playing not even 30 MPG. In '86, Moses got hurt and didn't play a single playoff game and they still were 1 win away from the ECF. McAdoo effective? He played less than 15 MPG in the '86 playoffs and only played in 5 games. Dirk's supporting cast >>> Barkley's supporting cast.

[raiderfan19]

So what is your exact definition of choking?

[DMAVS41]

Another one with reading comprehension problems? Show me where I said '94. And no, my logic is perfectly fine. Read my other posts and you'll see.





In '85, Barkley was a rookie playing not even 30 MPG. In '86, Moses got hurt and didn't play a single playoff game and they still were 1 win away from the ECF. McAdoo effective? He played less than 15 MPG in the '86 playoffs and only played in 5 games. Dirk's supporting cast >>> Barkley's supporting cast.

Choking and losing are two different things.

Please tell me if the following players "choked"....so I can try to figure out your definition of choking....

Shaq in 95, 03, 04?
Kobe in 03, 04, 08, 11?
Lebron in 09?

I'll list more if you are unable to answer those.

Here is the thing. Dirk has been in the playoffs 11 years...lets start from the beginning. Each year you either underachieve or overachieve or perform as expected....

01 - Overachieved. Mavs upset the Jazz in the first round. Won the deciding game on the road. Dirk has never lost a do or die deciding game in a series by the way. He's 5-0.

02 - Standard....to slight overachieve. The Mavs series against the Wolves was thought to be a coin flip. Dirk was great and the Mavs destroyed KG and the Wolves. There was no doubt Dirk was the best player in the series as KG could do nothing. The Mavs then lost in 5 to a great Kings team. That was expected.

03 - Standard....to slight overachieve. The 03 Mavs were good. Very good. But they weren't dominant. They made the WCF...to get there, they had to win 2 game 7's. Dirk's stats in each game:

31/11/2 on 57% fg against the Blazers
30/19/2 on 60% fg against the Kings

Again, Dirk has never lost a game 7.

They make the WCF. The Mavs then upset the Spurs in the first game on the road. Dirk puts up:

38/15/2 on 53% fg at the Spurs against Tim Duncan at his relative peak

Then of course Dirk gets hurt and the Mavs lose.

04 - Standard. Mavs simply lost to a better Kings team on the road in the playoffs. Dirk's numbers for the series:

27/12/2 45/47/86 27.5 PER

05 - Standard...to slight underachieve. They lost to a better Suns team in the 2nd round, but Dirk didn't play that well in the playoffs that year. He deserves some criticism for not playing up to his usual all time great self in the playoffs.

06 - Straight overachieve. The Mavs upset the huge title favorites in the Spurs. Becoming the only team to beat the Spurs from 05 to 07. Dirk was amazing in that series and then went on to drop 50 in game 5 against the Suns in the WCF. Dirk wasn't great in the finals, but he also wasn't bad either. He played a great game 6...and was super clutch down the stretch in game 5. The Mavs lost in the finals mainly because of coaching and the inept perimeter defenders on the Mavs to stop Wade.

07 - Straight underachieve. Dirk was terrible in the Warriors series and deserves every bit of criticism he gets. Of course, he didn't get much help as usual and it will go completely unnoticed that the 07 Mavs are by far the worst roster to ever win 67 games. But Dirk was awful...no question about it.

08 - Standard. Lost to a better Hornets team in the first round. Kidd and Terry and Howard and Stackhouse were awful. Dirk was actually quite good. Dirk put up:

27/12/4 on 47/33/81 and got no help.

09 - Standard....to slight overachieve. Mavs beat the Spurs in the first round as the 6th seed. Dirk then went on to play amazing vs the Nuggets. Once again he got no help and even while probably playing some of the best ball of his career, the Mavs went down pretty easily. Against the Nuggets he had games of:

28/10
35/9
33/16
44/13 (the Mavs only win of the series)
32/10/7

He did that on absurd efficiency as well. The worst game Dirk had in that series he shot 47%. He missed 5 ft's. Probably the best I've seen of Dirk...and the Mavs lose in 5.

10 - Standard...to slight underachieve. You will disagree here of course, but the truth is that the Spurs only won 5 less games than the Mavs...and Tony Parker missed around 30 games due to injury. I just can't say Dirk underachieved when once again he played great. For the series:

27/8/3 on 55/57/95

Dirk just played too good to be called out for what happened in 10.

11 - Straight overachieve. Won the title as huge underdogs to get out of the 2nd round. One of the most improbable titles in NBA history. One of the most clutch playoff runs of all time.


Check out the above. Then factor in that Dirk is arguably the best elimination game player of the last 30 years. Factor in that the Mavs have the best record in close games out of any team this era. Factor in that Dirk and the Mavs perform with the best in game winning situations. Only Melo has consistently been better than Dirk. Factor in that Dirk has never played less than 73 games in his career in a regular season. Factor in that Dirk is 1 of 4 players in NBA history to average over 25/10 in the playoffs. Factor in that Dirk has the highest overall efficiency in NBA playoff history for any player scoring over 25ppg.

The idea of calling this player a choker is absurd.

The only 3 years you could call out the Mavs for underachieving is 05, 07, and 10....and 05 and 10 are iffy at best. 07 is the only year that Mavs truly came up short and didn't perform like they should. The problem is that you just bought in to the perception and never really looked at the facts.

You can't epically fail in a year you are supposed to lose in the 2nd round but end up making the finals. Its a logic fail.

Your standards are absurd. If you put Bird through your standards he would come off as a choker. The dude failed in the playoffs as a favorite with home court time and time again. Come back to reality please.

[97 bulls]

The dallas mavericks rank as far as payroll going back to 02
02/7th
03/3rd
04/2nd
05/1st
06/3rd
07/9th
08/2nd
09/3rd
10/4th


http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/basketball/nba/salaries/team/2009

For those that say dirk hasn't been surrounded by talented teams. The mavs had been top 3 in payroll 6 times since 02. Basically all but 3 years.

[Carbine]

The dallas mavericks rank as far as payroll going back to 02
02/7th
03/3rd
04/2nd
05/1st
06/3rd
07/9th
08/2nd
09/3rd
10/4th


http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/basketball/nba/salaries/team/2009

For those that say dirk hasn't been surrounded by talented teams. The mavs had been top 3 in payroll 6 times since 02. Basically all but 3 years.

I don't think anyone is saying Dirk never played with talented players, instead they're saying he didn't play on a team that was well put together, specifically the rotation of big men.

[raiderfan19]

The dallas mavericks rank as far as payroll going back to 02
02/7th
03/3rd
04/2nd
05/1st
06/3rd
07/9th
08/2nd
09/3rd
10/4th
For those that say dirk hasn't been surrounded by talented teams. The mavs had been top 3 in payroll 6 times since 02. Basically all but 3 years.
What does that have to do with anything? Payroll does not equal talent

[97 bulls]

What does that have to do with anything? Payroll does not equal talent
It doesn't. But it does show that the mavs were never bad teams. Especially when you look at their record over the last 10 years.

I guess this is a response to people bragging cuz dirk has been on 50 and 60 win teams. As if thheyve over achieved. His teams have had one of the highest payrolls year to year. Winning 50+ per year is nothing special under the circumstances.

[FF1]

It doesn't. But it does show that the mavs were never bad teams. Especially when you look at their record over the last 10 years.

I guess this is a response to people bragging cuz dirk has been on 50 and 60 win teams. As if thheyve over achieved. His teams have had one of the highest payrolls year to year. Winning 50+ per year is nothing special under the circumstances.

11+ years of winning 50+ has only happened 4 times in the history of the NBA. Dirk has been the only consistant piece over those years. It's pretty special, payroll be damned.

Plus.. Cuban has been notorious for vastly overpaying players.. Just because he gives Dampier "elite player" money doesn't make Dampier an elite player so the payroll number is a little misleading when trying to figure out how talented the teams were.

As someone pointed out in the other thread, Dirk and the Mavs have upset the team with HCA more often than they have been upset themselves.

[DMAVS41]

The dallas mavericks rank as far as payroll going back to 02
02/7th
03/3rd
04/2nd
05/1st
06/3rd
07/9th
08/2nd
09/3rd
10/4th


http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/basketball/nba/salaries/team/2009

For those that say dirk hasn't been surrounded by talented teams. The mavs had been top 3 in payroll 6 times since 02. Basically all but 3 years.

talent and great teams are totally different.

he played through 04 while having the 4th best team in his own conference....

05...the suns and spurs were clearly better

06...the spurs were better

07...about even between spurs and mavs....although i'd take the likes of manu/parker in 07 over just about anything Dirk has ever had

08 and 09 and 10....not even close to the best team in the conference

11...definitely not the best team in the conference again


you act like the position of the mavs had nothing to do with dirk. you take dirk off those teams and they are just not good. i almost wish dirk had missed some time at some point in his career so everyone would understand. you saw it a little this year when the mavs went 2-7 without him and just looked lost.

there is exactly 1 year in Dirk's entire career that his supporting cast can be argued as the best in his own conference.

almost every player in history in the top 12 or so has played with better help.

jordan
russell
magic
wilt
kareem
duncan
shaq
bird
kobe
baylor
west

hakeem didn't have as good of teams. duncan had only slightly better teams...but had a much better coach throughout as well.

not to mention that its a star driven league. stars get you titles. and dirk has played with exactly 1 player to make an all nba team. steve nash. thats it. and it was a pre healthy/mvp nash...before the rules changes as well. so the only player dirk has had that reached that elite status was a nash that was not nearly the same player he was on the suns for a variety of reasons.

go back and look at what it takes to win. compare the best 3 and coach of the teams winning titles over the last 30 years to what dirk has had:

magic/kareem/worthy
bird/mchale/parrish or dj
thomas/dumars/laimbeer
jordan/pippen/rodman or grant
kobe/shaq
kobe/gasol/odom
wade/shaq
kg/allen/pierce
duncan/manu/parker

and again...the coached by the likes of riley, jackson, brown, pop, daly...etc.

since when does terry/howard...chandler/terry....or any combination fit the above.

the closest thing was nash/finley/dirk (when healthy)....and that was really only 1 year. they made the wcf and dirk got hurt. and we all know run and gun just doesn't win.

its absurd to act like dirk has played on these championship teams his entire career. he played on very good and talented teams...but never clear cut dominant or stacked teams.

at no point in dirk's career did he ever have the best supporting cast in the league.

[DMAVS41]

11+ years of winning 50+ has only happened 4 times in the history of the NBA. Dirk has been the only consistant piece over those years. It's pretty special, payroll be damned.

Plus.. Cuban has been notorious for vastly overpaying players.. Just because he gives Dampier "elite player" money doesn't make Dampier an elite player so the payroll number is a little misleading when trying to figure out how talented the teams were.

As someone pointed out in the other thread, Dirk and the Mavs have upset the team with HCA more often than they have been upset themselves.

yep. i think its the russell led celtics (along with 5 hall of famers or more), magic/kareem lakers, duncan led spurs, and dirk led mavs

i love how people act like dirk hasn't had historic success throughout his career.

nobody is saying he's played with scrubs. but talented teams and championship teams are just different.

[Shepseskaf]

Dirk solidified his position as the best European player in league history. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the way that he managed to finally get to the mountaintop after the debacles of '06 and '07.

The one thing that sticks in my mind, though, is the episode with that crazy chick. The one who he was reportedly thinking of marrying. I just can't figure out how a person on his level, with the access to women that he obviously has, couldn't see through that scam artist immediately.

[knickswin]

Dirk is great. I am known as a Carmelo homer, but I think Dirk is the best player in the league right now hands down. I had so much fun watching him this past post season. It's always impressive when really good players elevate their games late in their careers. Dirk won a championship this year largely because he worked on his flaws. He developed a good post game and a better triple threat game throughout the years. His passing ability this post season will probably get overlooked because the assist numbers are not high, but make no mistake he moved the ball beautifully.

I DREAM that a player on the Knicks will elevate his game like Dirk did. Ewing never learned how to pass and make his teammates better, and maybe that's why he always came up short. I hope Amar'e and Carmelo can one day add that foil to their games.

[RRR3]

Dirk is great. I am known as a Carmelo homer, but I think Dirk is the best player in the league right now hands down. I had so much fun watching him this past post season. It's always impressive when really good players elevate their games late in their careers. Dirk won a championship this year largely because he worked on his flaws. He developed a good post game and a better triple threat game throughout the years. His passing ability this post season will probably get overlooked because the assist numbers are not high, but make no mistake he moved the ball beautifully.

I DREAM that a player on the Knicks will elevate his game like Dirk did. Ewing never learned how to pass and make his teammates better, and maybe that's why he always came up short. I hope Amar'e and Carmelo can one day add that foil to their games.
Carmelo knows how to pass, he just chooses not to. :lol

[knickswin]

Carmelo knows how to pass, he just chooses not to. :lol

that is actually true which is why I have a lot of hope with him. Part of that's on him because I think 'Melo does have that Kobe problem where he thinks a shot by him against a double team is better than a wide open shot from a teammate, but part of that is playing under Karl and his random ball offense. If he can buy into D'Antoni's ball movement, he will be a much more effective player.

[ACCBaller1403]

Not winning another ring can't hurt his legacy at this point. He's proven everything he's had to to be a 1st ballot HOF'er and one of the defining players of the 2000's.

Unless something crazy happens off the court, the perception of him will be a very loyal, highly skilled, winner by those in the know.

I'm watching DVDs of the Mavs playoff run this evening and it's truly amazing what he was able to do the first 3 rounds, and to a lesser extent, the Finals.