If Dirk isn't above KG in your all-time list right now....

[DaPerceive]

....what will it take for Dirk to be above him?


I feel like Dirk has already done enough to surpass KG in the all-time rankings. What has KG accomplished that Dirk hasn't besides win a DPOY? There are plenty of players that are above KG in the all-time list that are missing a DPOY too, but it hasn't prevented those players from being above KG and it shouldn't prevent Dirk either.

Maybe a few more all-star caliber seasons from Dirk should be enough at the least. That being said there aren't any All-NBA/All-star appearances advantages on KG's side either.

Dirk

10

[AMISTILLILL]

Dirk had Nash alongside him for a nice chunk of time, while KG only had a short time with solid number 2 and 3 options... yet still carried those Timberwolves teams on his back. I think they both have arguments for being ranked "better" over one another but Garnett has my vote.

[hitmanyr2k]

Are we ignoring the defensive side of the ball now? KG kills Dirk in that department and it's not even about stats or awards. It's about the impact they have on a game. Dirk isn't in KG's stratosphere on that end of the court.

[Odinn]

Dirk had Nash alongside him for a nice chunk of time, while KG only had a short time with solid number 2 and 3 options... yet still carried those Timberwolves teams on his back. I think they both have arguments for being ranked "better" over one another but Garnett has my vote.
Carried to where?

11 seasons as starter for Wolves, missed the playoff 3 times and passed the 1st round only once.

[PTB Fan]

I don't think Dirk will surpass KG on the all time list. KG made more impact overall on the court, was a much better rebounder, much better defensive player, good passer, more complete player etc.

When he got good team mates in Minnesota, he took the team pretty far and rightfully won the MVP. When he won his ring with the Celtics, he was arguably the best player on that team and pretty much the biggest reason why the Celtics won their title.

Dirk's very very good. His peak is comparable, he obviously is a better clutch player, offensively is more unstoppable since he's got comfortable advantage in scoring and shooting.

But he has more flaws than KG and before he won a title this year, he was thought as a choker. I think Garnett should be ranked higher on the all time list than Dirk.

For Nowitzki to possibly surpass KG, he'll need to add more to the legacy, win possibly another title but even with that, i wouldn't have him ranked above KG.

[DaPerceive]

Dirk had Nash alongside him for a nice chunk of time, while KG only had a short time with solid number 2 and 3 options... yet still carried those Timberwolves teams on his back. I think they both have arguments for being ranked "better" over one another but Garnett has my vote.
I'm not trying to see what most of you guys think is better between Dirk and KG. I'm trying to see what you guys think Dirk will have to do in the next few years in order to surpass KG.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You can argue either or. It just depends on what you and their respective team(s) values. You want prolific scoring, respectable rebounding and exceptional clutch play? Take Dirk. If your team needs DPOY caliber defense, great scoring and rebounding, KG is your guy.

[Odinn]

Are we ignoring the defensive side of the ball now? KG kills Dirk in that department and it's not even about stats or awards. It's about the impact they have on a game. Dirk isn't in KG's stratosphere on that end of the court.
Actually Dirk killed Garnett in 2002 playoffs;

Nowitzki in 2002 Playoffs, vs. Wolves;
33.3 ppg
15.7 rpg
0.7 apg
3.0 spg
1.3 bpg
2.0 tpg
0.526 fg
0.727 3pt.
0.889 ft
41.67 efficiency
0.962 efficiency per min.

You can see the earlier debate about Dirk's monstorus 2002 performance in this thread;
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234068&page=2

[WillC]

Dirk has already surpassed KG...

NOWITZKI vs BARKLEY, GARNETT & MALONE: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/08/nowitzki-vs-barkley-garnett-malone.html

RANKING THE TOP 100 PLAYERS IN NBA HISTORY: http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html

[AMISTILLILL]

Carried to where?

11 seasons as starter for Wolves, missed the playoff 3 times and passed the 1st round only once.

Are you new to the NBA? Ignoring the fact that the Timberwolves were a threat in the west leads me to believe that you are. Simply because they didn't have profound success in the post-season doesn't negate the scare they put in a lot of teams trying to make it out west in the early '00s. Garnett was the primary reason for it and to ignore that is peculiar.

[Odinn]

Are you new to the NBA? Ignoring the fact that the Timberwolves were a threat in the west leads me to believe that you are. Simply because they didn't have profound success in the post-season doesn't negate the scare they put in a lot of teams trying to make it out west in the early '00s. Garnett was the primary reason for it and to ignore that is peculiar.
If Hakeem can get criticised about his 8 first round exit in goat debate, Garnett can get criticised also.

Yes, that Minnesota team made the playoffs thanks to Garnett but that's not enough. If you are talking about an all-time great, there wouldn't be a thing such as "hey thanks to him his team made the playoffs". You can't applaud that.

[Mr Know It All]

He has already surpassed him by winning a ring as the clear cut best player on his team, as well as being the option in the clutch. KG fans will prattle on about how much better KG is in every other aspect except offensively, and how he had crap teams, but Dirk's team success and performance in the playoffs speak for themselves.

KG is to Dirk what prime Shawn Marion/Gerald Wallace is to Carmelo Anthony. I kid. But the comparison really isn't as crazy as it seems.

[hitmanyr2k]

Actually Dirk killed Garnett in 2002 playoffs;

Nowitzki in 2002 Playoffs, vs. Wolves;
33.3 ppg
15.7 rpg
0.7 apg
3.0 spg
1.3 bpg
2.0 tpg
0.526 fg
0.727 3pt.
0.889 ft
41.67 efficiency
0.962 efficiency per min.

You can see the earlier debate about Dirk's monstorus 2002 performance in this thread;
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234068&page=2

I don't care about head to head matchups...especially for a single playoff series. You can catch any player on a hot streak or a cold streak in the playoffs. That doesn't discount a player's impact on making his team's defense better overall throughout the season. Regardless of how they match up head to head Dirk isn't in KG's stratosphere when it comes to overall defensive impact whether it's one on one defense or help defense. KG did it much better than Dirk and much more consistently than Dirk. That's all that matters.

[D.J.]

Here's the thing:


Minnesota had no real expectations when KG played for them. In the playoffs, they weren't expected to do anything. Outside of KG, the T-Wolves were complete utter sh*t. Prior to '04, they never finished higher than 5th other than 1 season and even in '03, they went up against the Lakers that had Shaq mostly healthy. They were better than their record indicated. It's not a coincedence that once Garnett got 2 decent teammates, they were 2 wins from the Finals.

Dirk on the other hand, had very good supporting casts. Even then, Dallas gave away games and even series multiple times. They were contenders at least a few times and failed regularly.

[AMISTILLILL]

Here's the thing:


Minnesota had no real expectations when KG played for them. In the playoffs, they weren't expected to do anything. Outside of KG, the T-Wolves were complete utter sh*t. Prior to '04, they never finished higher than 5th other than 1 season and even in '03, they went up against the Lakers that had Shaq mostly healthy. They were better than their record indicated. It's not a coincedence that once Garnett got 2 decent teammates, they were 2 wins from the Finals.

Dirk on the other hand, had very good supporting casts. Even then, Dallas gave away games and even series multiple times. They were contenders at least a few times and failed regularly.

This.

[Joey3000]

I give Dirk a slight edge on offense, but would not be mad if someone told me that KG is just as good on offense.

However, KG's Defense is what puts him clearly a notch above Dirk. Dude can dominate a game on both ends. While dirk is often a liability on defense.

KG has been an anchor on defense for his entire carear and has even helped his teammates to step their defensive game up.

To say Dirk is better is outrageous.

[raiderfan19]

To say kg is as good on offense is.... Foolish at best. You could single cover prime kg.

[Joey3000]

To say kg is as good on offense is.... Foolish at best. You could single cover prime kg.

Who could single cover prime KG?

Kg is better than Dirk in the post, very good at close to midrange and doesnt need to shoot the 3 cuz he is not a SF or sg.

Now tell me how many positions Dirk could cover? He cant even gaurd his own position. SMH I like Dirk, but he is not fit to tie KG's shoes.

[raiderfan19]

As to the answer of this question, nothing dirk does will put him above kg in kg fans eyes and there is a perfectly logical explanation for picking kg over dirk. If you rated everything in basketball on a numerical scale and averaged it out, kg would have a higher average than dirk. Thats not exactly how they verbalize it, but thats why kg fans rank him higher. At his age, dirk isnt going to become a more all around player.

My counter argument would be that a dominant and efficient scorer is more valuable as your go to guy then an all around guy that can be single covered but thats an opinion thing which can be debated. Dirks already had more team success and i dont see him being better than he already is, so like i said i dont see him passong kg on anyones list if he isnt already ahead of him

[raiderfan19]

Who could single cover prime KG?

Kg is better than Dirk in the post, very good at close to midrange and doesnt need to shoot the 3 cuz he is not a SF or sg.

Now tell me how many positions Dirk could cover? He cant even gaurd his own position. SMH I like Dirk, but he is not fit to tie KG's shoes.
Dirks postgame the last 2-3 years is better than kgs ever was

[Joey3000]

Dirks postgame the last 2-3 years is better than kgs ever was

Don't make me laugh.

And even if that was the case... The only thing that is not arguable in this debate is that Prime KG's defense alone is enough to make him better than Dirk. Dirk didnt even have average defense. He didnt even have acceptable defense.

There was not average or below average about KG's game in any category.

[D.J.]

Dirk's D is really being underestimated. He was far from being elite, but it wasn't nearly as bad as some make it out to be.

[Joey3000]

Dirk's D is really being underestimated. He was far from being elite, but it wasn't nearly as bad as some make it out to be.

Name me some of the starting PF's in the league whom u think dirk is better than on defense.

[RRR3]

I am so SICK of people acting like KG is a mediocore scorer to prop up Dirk. :facepalm

KG Age 22-31 (prime) scoring:
1998-99: 21 PPG. 22 PPG in 4 playoff games.
1999-00: 23 PPG. 19 PPG in 4 playoff games.
2000-01: 22 PPG. 21 PPG in 5 playoff games.
2001-02: 21 PPG. 24 PPG in 3 playoff games.
2002-03: 23 PPG. 27 PPG in 6 playoff games.
2003-04: 24 PPG. 24 PPG in 18 playoff games.
2004-05: 22 PPG
2005-06: 22 PPG
2006-07: 22 PPG
2007-08: 19 PPG (in 33 MPG). 20 PPG in 26 playoff games.

Dirk is a better scorer than KG, we all know that, but to act like KG was nowhere close is pure revisionist history. There were years when they were both in their primes when KG actually outscored Dirk. Dirk has a scoring advantage, to be sure, but KG had an advantage in passing and playmaking, rebounding and an enormous advantage in defense. KG is and always has been the better player overall. In b4 DMAVS says defense isn't important. :facepalm

[raiderfan19]

Name me some of the starting PF's in the league whom u think dirk is better than on defense.
Jamison, shard lewis, David lee(unless we are calling him a center), frye, blake griffin, rac randolph among others

[RRR3]

Jamison, shard lewis, David lee(unless we are calling him a center), frye, blake griffin, rac randolph among others
Rashard Lewis plays SF for the Wizards.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Are we ignoring the defensive side of the ball now? KG kills Dirk in that department and it's not even about stats or awards. It's about the impact they have on a game. Dirk isn't in KG's stratosphere on that end of the court.
Seriously, that's massively important. Nowitzki had a phenomenal postseason run but it doesn't trump one guy being an average-or-worse defender his entire career while the other is one of the greatest defenders in the history of the game.

[D.J.]

Dirk gets a slight edge in offense. Very slight. Both were putting up similar points on nearly identical field goal attempts.

[Bigsmoke]

who cares?

Good Kid in a Mad City is what i only care about at the moment.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

K.Dot better than both

kd > prime kg? no way...

[Kobr]

plus i think dirk still has a lot left in him

[DMAVS41]

Dirk gets a slight edge in offense. Very slight. Both were putting up similar points on nearly identical field goal attempts.

I'm sorry, but you are a moron.

[RRR3]

I'm sorry, but you are a moron.
Passing/playmaking is part of offense, you goof. KG>>>>>Dirk in that area.

[D.J.]

I'm sorry, but you are a moron.


Says the person that blames the refs for losing in '06. You use the same facts for all your arguments. Your parents should have used birth control and we wouldn't be dealing with you right now.

[bdreason]

It's a close comparison, and one that is made all the time on this forum. What it usually comes down to is the fact that KG was obviously a superior player in his prime.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm sorry, but you are a moron.

Stop being irrational.

[DMAVS41]

Passing/playmaking is part of offense, you goof. KG>>>>>Dirk in that area.

Dirk's value on offense is simply greater than KG. It shouldn't even be debatable.

This is why I can't stand your formulaic breakdowns of players. Having a guy that can get you close to 30 in the playoffs, space the floor, make his ft's, carry you in crunch time...etc. Its just more valuable than being a so-called better "overall" offensive player.

KG is funny...because if you break him down...he really should be one of the 10 or so best players ever. But he just wasn't. And that is because basketball can't be broken down the way you want it to be.

[DMAVS41]

Stop being irrational.

I'm not.

Its irrational to say Dirk only has a slight edge on offense. His value is simply much greater.

You people need to learn about overall impact and not run to these simplistic and narrow minded breakdowns of players.

This is how you morons would probably want to break this down:

Dirk is a 9 on offense. KG is an 8.

Dirk is a 5 on defense. KG is a 10.

Therefore KG is easily better because he's an 18 and Dirk is a 14.

That sound about right? :facepalm

[bdreason]

Dirk's value on offense is simply greater than KG. It shouldn't even be debatable.

This is why I can't stand your formulaic breakdowns of players. Having a guy that can get you close to 30 in the playoffs, space the floor, make his ft's, carry you in crunch time...etc. Its just more valuable than being a so-called better "overall" offensive player.

KG is funny...because if you break him down...he really should be one of the 10 or so best players ever. But he just wasn't. And that is because basketball can't be broken down the way you want it to be.


If KG didn't spend his prime in Minnesota, he very well may have ended up a top 10 player. He certainly had the talent and drive. Unfortunately, not everyone can play for a winning franchise throughout their career.

[Joey3000]

I'm not.

Its irrational to say Dirk only has a slight edge on offense. His value is simply much greater.

You people need to learn about overall impact and not run to these simplistic and narrow minded breakdowns of players.

This is how you morons would probably want to break this down:

Dirk is a 9 on offense. KG is an 8.

Dirk is a 5 on defense. KG is a 10.

Therefore KG is easily better because he's an 18 and Dirk is a 14.

That sound about right? :facepalm

Dirk a 5 on defense? Dont make me laugh.

[D.J.]

I'm not.

Its irrational to say Dirk only has a slight edge on offense. His value is simply much greater.

You people need to learn about overall impact and not run to these simplistic and narrow minded breakdowns of players.

This is how you morons would probably want to break this down:

Dirk is a 9 on offense. KG is an 8.

Dirk is a 5 on defense. KG is a 10.

Therefore KG is easily better because he's an 18 and Dirk is a 14.

That sound about right? :facepalm


Calling someone a moron because you know they're more intelligent and knowledgable is irrational.

[DMAVS41]

Calling someone a moron because you know they're more intelligent and knowledgable is irrational.

Sorry, you aren't. You are getting destroyed. Why don't you do a breakdown of Larry Bird like you did Dirk.

Lets see what results you get.

And only a moron would call a year in which a team upsets the title favorite on the road a...."epic failure"

[DMAVS41]

Dirk a 5 on defense? Dont make me laugh.

Make him lower...that only helps my argument. LOL....

[The Real JW]

plus i think dirk still has a lot left in him

Exactly, KG is at the end of his career, Dirk isn't.

[D.J.]

Sorry, you aren't. You are getting destroyed. Why don't you do a breakdown of Larry Bird like you did Dirk.

Lets see what results you get.

And only a moron would call a year in which a team upsets the title favorite on the road a...."epic failure"


I've been proving you wrong all afternoon. I'm getting destroyed? :roll: I've owned everything you've said and did so in a non-biased manner. Get on my level, then you can debate with me.

[DMAVS41]

I've been proving you wrong all afternoon. I'm getting destroyed? :roll: I've owned everything you've said and did so in a non-biased manner. Get on my level, then you can debate with me.

Think again.

Settle this. Do you think Bird is a playoff choker? Please answer...

[D.J.]

Think again.

Settle this. Do you think Bird is a playoff choker? Please answer...


:roll: You think throwing an irrelevant question is going to prove anything? GTFO. I don't answer to your b*tch ass.

[DMAVS41]

:roll: You think throwing an irrelevant question is going to prove anything? GTFO. I don't answer to your b*tch ass.

Its absolutely relevant. Because if you did the same breakdown, you'd find that Bird not only lost more often as the favorite, but his individual play suffered big time as well many times.

Its relevant because if your criteria can't be applied to other players its flawed.

Waiting for your answer.....please answer.

[D.J.]

Waiting for your answer.....please answer.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

And the debate is over I guess.

[D.J.]

And the debate is over I guess.


There was no debate. It was over before you every opened your mouth. You'll never be as knowledgable as me. Your trolling proves that.

[DMAVS41]

There was no debate. It was over before you every opened your mouth. You'll never be as knowledgable as me. Your trolling proves that.

Not trolling at all. I'm asking you a relevant question. Why won't you answer? Why won't you hold other players to the same standard?

You calling me a troll doesn't do anything. Your refusal to answer some simple questions proves you haven't thought this through.

[D.J.]

Not trolling at all. I'm asking you a relevant question. Why won't you answer? Why won't you hold other players to the same standard?

You calling me a troll doesn't do anything. Your refusal to answer some simple questions proves you haven't thought this through.


Your insults and blatant homerism shows you have nothing intelligent to add. Go back to one of your other 10 accounts.

[PTB Fan]

Dirk gets a slight edge in offense. Very slight. Both were putting up similar points on nearly identical field goal attempts.

KG's passing needs to be mentioned here.

One of the best passers ever.

[Legends66NBA7]

*sips coke*

[D.J.]

KG's passing needs to be mentioned here.

One of the best passers ever.


From his position, yes. But Dirk at his best is between 3-3.5 APG, which is nothing to sneeze at either. And he did it multiple times. But Dirk scores a few more points, does so on no more field goal attempts, has more range, and can score in more ways. Garnett is the better passer, but it's not enough to put him above Dirk offensively.

[DMAVS41]

Your insults and blatant homerism shows you have nothing intelligent to add. Go back to one of your other 10 accounts.

You come on here today and make these threads about Dirk. You are taking an extreme stance. Calling him a failure and such.

I'm asking you a simple question:

Do you feel the same way about Bird? If not, why? Why don't you hold other players to the same standards? You list 5 playoff failures for Dirk. Using that same standard, I could come up with 7 or so with Bird.

So I was just curious if your criteria applies to other players and not just Dirk. Sounds like it applies just to Dirk...and that is fine, but that means its just one view on one player.

You can't just do that and not expect to be called out.

[Jacks3]

dork will never surpass kg, because he was never as good as prime/peak kg. it's pretty simple. kg would have gone down as a top 10 player ever if he had the talent dork has had over his career.

[DMAVS41]

dork will never surpass kg, because he was never as good as prime/peak kg. it's pretty simple. kg would have gone down as a top 10 player ever if he had the talent dork has had over his career.

i have KG higher now, but Dirk definitely has a chance to pass him. all depends on what happens.

[BGriffin's Dad]

dork will never surpass kg, because he was never as good as prime/peak kg. it's pretty simple. kg would have gone down as a top 10 player ever if he had the talent dork has had over his career.

what?... dirk was never as good as kg, but kg never had dirk's talent in his career?

[D.J.]

You come on here today and make these threads about Dirk. You are taking an extreme stance. Calling him a failure and such.


ThreadS? I made 1 thread about Dirk and I didn't even bash him. I don't even dislike him. I gave credit where credit was due. But I also call it as I see it.



You can't just do that and not expect to be called out.


Called out? By a troll of all people?? :roll: There's a reason I'm a respected poster and you're not. My thread alone sums up everything I can say and there's nothing you can say that'll prove me wrong. You use the same argument(overachieving) most of the time. That alone shows you're not as knowledgable as me. If you ask other posters who is more respected, my name will be mentioned 100x over before you get any mention.

[Jacks3]

he only has a chance to pass if you place too much value on things like accolades/accomplishments/longevity. how exactly can he pass him as a player if he was never as good at the game of basketball. :facepalm

[TMacsOneGoodEye]

It's totally subjective and you can have either or above the other and not be wrong, but I gotta go with Dirk. Especially after the 2010-2011 season where he took his team through some of the best teams and players in the league and came out on top as the only all-star on his squad.

[DMAVS41]

ThreadS? I made 1 thread about Dirk and I didn't even bash him. I don't even dislike him. I gave credit where credit was due. But I also call it as I see it.





Called out? By a troll of all people?? :roll: There's a reason I'm a respected poster and you're not. My thread alone sums up everything I can say and there's nothing you can say that'll prove me wrong. You use the same argument(overachieving) most of the time. That alone shows you're not as knowledgable as me. If you ask other posters who is more respected, my name will be mentioned 100x over before you get any mention.


What does that have to do with any of the questions you are refusing to answer?

Do you think it matters if people here like me or you more? LOL

I'm trying to engage you in a legit conversation. Just so you know, we just confirmed that Bird lost 7 times in 12 years in the playoffs as the favorite.

So I'll ask again. Does that make him a playoff failure like you claim Dirk is?

[DMAVS41]

he only has a chance to pass if you place too much value on things like accolades/accomplishments/longevity. how exactly can he pass him as a player if he was never as good at the game of basketball. :facepalm

well, for starters, I don't think KG could have ever led a team like the 11 Mavs to a title.

and everything counts in these rankings. KG was pretty damn bad in the 2010 finals at the age of 33. If dirk was to continue playing MVP caliber ball the next 2 years or something...it has to be factored in at least a little.

[D.J.]

I'm trying to engage you in a legit conversation. Just so you know, we just confirmed that Bird lost 7 times in 12 years in the playoffs as the favorite.


Uh no. You resulted to insults because you couldn't win a debate and now you're asking an irrelevant question.



So I'll ask again. Does that make him a playoff failure like you claim Dirk is?


Now I know you have nothing better to do. Your whole intelligent discussion piece ended when you threw insults earlier.

[Jacks3]

what?... dirk was never as good as kg, but kg never had dirk's talent in his career?
he only had that type of talent for one year of his prime (07-08). he won 66 games,won the Championship, had the highest SRS of the decade, and anchored a top 3 defense ever. give him dirk's talent and he'd have 2-3 titles and be a consensus top 10 player ever.

[DMAVS41]

Uh no. You resulted to insults because you couldn't win a debate and now you're asking an irrelevant question.





Now I know you have nothing better to do. Your whole intelligent discussion piece ended when you threw insults earlier.

I think you are a moron. So what?

You are proving me right with each post. Your criteria can't hold up with other all time great players. I could go down the list. Bird, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, West, Baylor, Moses, Wilt....all have numerous playoff failures. Not to mention that Dirk is rarely compared to those guys. Guys like Barkley, KG, Malone, and Robinson all have numerous failures as well.....and never led a team to a title the way Dirk just did.

I'm simply asking if you are willing to label some of those guys the same way?

[Doranku]

Some of you need to realize that strictly as a basketball player, there's not a whole lot that separates these guys in terms of pure basketball talent. They're the elite of the game, the best in the world at what they do. This isn't like the super athletic gym rat pitted against the spelling bee champion.

That's why so much emphasis is placed on what they actually do and produce on the court in the big moments. Because that is the most tangible thing that can be analyzed and ultimately counts for the most at the end of the day.

[Carbine]

I believe a lot of people underestimate Dirk's uniqueness on offense. He's as unique an offensive player right now as I've ever seen in the league.

He makes other teams adapt to the Mavericks, not the other way around. You have to match up with Dirk, otherwise you're in for a nightmare.

Dirk is one of the best pick and roll players in the league, he's one of the best triple threat players in the league, he's on of the best post up players in the league, he's one of the best shooters in the league....and he's a legit 7 foot tall.

His total offensive impact is not measured by how many points he scores, even though he can do that with the best of them - it's measured by the amount of quality looks he generates for his teammates.

[DaPerceive]

plus i think dirk still has a lot left in him
Yup, which is exactly why I would like to know what Dirk has to do in order to surpass KG. Dirk has a good 5-6 seasons left in him while KG will be retired in 2-3 seasons.


That being said, KG's defensive impact is overrated anyways.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm not.

Its irrational to say Dirk only has a slight edge on offense. His value is simply much greater.

You people need to learn about overall impact and not run to these simplistic and narrow minded breakdowns of players.

This is how you morons would probably want to break this down:

Dirk is a 9 on offense. KG is an 8.

Dirk is a 5 on defense. KG is a 10.

Therefore KG is easily better because he's an 18 and Dirk is a 14.

That sound about right? :facepalm

What the hell are you even talking about? :oldlol:

My post on the front page:


You can argue either or. It just depends on what you and their respective team values. You want prolific scoring, respectable rebounding and exceptional clutch play? Take Dirk. If your team needs DPOY caliber defense, great scoring and rebounding, KG is your guy.

You are being completely irrational calling people morons hurling insults. Relax.

[DMAVS41]

What the hell are you even talking about?

My post on the front page:



You are being completely irrational calling people morons hurling insults. Relax.


Uhhhhh. The post you replied to was me calling him a moron for saying Dirk only has a very slight edge offensively.

I took it as you had issue with me having a problem with his statement. If it was about me calling him a moron...disregard it then. But he is still a moron....obvious now after his Dirk failures thread. We shut the shit down quickly after he stopped posting anything coherent and refused to answer some simple questions.

[CJ Mustard]

DMAVS41 back at it. SMH, you seem to argue this topic a lot for someone who claims to have KG ahead of Dirk. :oldlol: You can stop pretending to be objective now, we don't believe you.

[DaPerceive]

DMAVS41 back at it. SMH, you seem to argue this topic a lot for someone who claims to have KG ahead of Dirk. :oldlol: You can stop pretending to be objective now, we don't believe you.
Pretty sure he is debunking the stupid the arguments that are being used for KG, i.e. playing devils advocate.

[CJ Mustard]

Pretty sure he is debunking the stupid the arguments that are being used for KG, i.e. playing devils advocate.:oldlol: Right...

[DaPerceive]

:oldlol: Right...
Good point...










































http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147107

[CJ Mustard]

Good point... I know.

[brisbaneman]

Garnett is the greatest second banana ever whereas Dirk singlehandedly won games in one of the greatest runs in NBA history

[DevilsAssassin]

Career Wise Dirk > KG
Peak/Prime KG >>>>>>>>>>>> DIRK

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS41 back at it. SMH, you seem to argue this topic a lot for someone who claims to have KG ahead of Dirk. :oldlol: You can stop pretending to be objective now, we don't believe you.

Its the same thing every time. I only argue with people acting like Dirk is a playoff failure or that KG is easily better.

That is all.

Go back to trying to figure out why Dirk will never win a title....

[brisbaneman]

Career Wise Dirk > KG
Peak/Prime KG >>>>>>>>>>>> DIRK

Thats interesting because a prime Dirk took out the entire NBA. I guess mythical prime KG averaged 40/40/40 and won a championship on his own.

[DMAVS41]

Thats interesting because a prime Dirk took out the entire NBA. I guess mythical prime KG averaged 40/40/40 and won a championship on his own.

funny how we always have to hear that KG in his prime was so much better than dirk. i do think kg had a higher peak...i guess....but its not a huge difference in my opinion.

of course, i heard the same thing back in 02 before the mavs vs wolves series. how kg was going to destroy the soft dirk...blah blah blah. kg even started talking himself about how he would shadow dirk...etc.

but as dirk fans we are supposed to ignore that a pre prime dirk destroyed a prime kg in the 02 playoffs. but i thought kg in his prime was just so much better................

:lol

[brisbaneman]

funny how we always have to hear that KG in his prime was so much better than dirk. i do think kg had a higher peak...i guess....but its not a huge difference in my opinion.

of course, i heard the same thing back in 02 before the mavs vs wolves series. how kg was going to destroy the soft dirk...blah blah blah. kg even started talking himself about how he would shadow dirk...etc.

but as dirk fans we are supposed to ignore that a pre prime dirk destroyed a prime kg in the 02 playoffs. but i thought kg in his prime was just so much better................

:lol

I think what people mean by peak or prime is that blacks are more athletic than whites so [insert name of random black player] had a much better peak than Dirk. Basically people here think "prime" webber/kg/duncan, even freaking rasheed was better than prime Dirk, so you get the idea

I consider 10-11 dirk to be the best version of dirk ( i know you disagree), whereas prime KG was 03-04 and barely beat a webber-less Kings squad. So I need someone to explain how KG was ever even remotely as good as 10-11 Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

I think what people mean by peak or prime is that blacks are more athletic than whites so [insert name of random black player] had a much better peak than Dirk. Basically people here think "prime" webber/kg/duncan, even freaking rasheed was better than prime Dirk, so you get the idea

I consider 10-11 dirk to be the best version of dirk ( i know you disagree), whereas prime KG was 03-04 and barely beat a webber-less Kings squad. So I need someone to explain how KG was ever even remotely as good as 10-11 Dirk.

well, statistically kg's peak was better. and i do think that the 04 version of KG is probably better than any version of dirk.....but i will say that with an asterisk simply because we never saw what KG would do with a better team and if he was capable of consistently performing late in those inevitable close playoff games.

[brisbaneman]

well, statistically kg's peak was better. and i do think that the 04 version of KG is probably better than any version of dirk.....but i will say that with an asterisk simply because we never saw what KG would do with a better team and if he was capable of consistently performing late in those inevitable close playoff games.

Nah Dirk was easily better in 10-11 in my view. It's just not a comparison. How many guys completely take over a 4th quarter like Dirk did time and again? Dirk has never been a stats guy anyways...Garnett to me is like the power forward version of Lebron--take that for what you want.

[DevilsAssassin]

Nah Dirk was easily better in 10-11 in my view. It's just not a comparison. How many guys completely take over a 4th quarter like Dirk did time and again? Dirk has never been a stats guy anyways...Garnett to me is like the power forward version of Lebron--take that for what you want.

maybe offensive or just scoring.......but all around KG in 03-04 was definitely better than any version of Dirk.......no contest!!

24PPG 14RPG 5APG 1.5SPG 2BPG 50FG%
Advance stats: PER 29.2 18.3WS

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2004.html

[brisbaneman]

maybe offensive or just scoring.......but all around KG in 03-04 was definitely better than any version of Dirk.......no contest!!

How so? Clutch scoring is a lot more valuable than team defense down the stretch.

[DMAVS41]

Nah Dirk was easily better in 10-11 in my view. It's just not a comparison. How many guys completely take over a 4th quarter like Dirk did time and again? Dirk has never been a stats guy anyways...Garnett to me is like the power forward version of Lebron--take that for what you want.

Sadly we will never really know what KG would have been capable of. He wasted his career on average at best teams in Minny with no real chance to win anything.

Dirk played with much better help, but we'll also sadly never know what Dirk's career would have looked like playing with a Melo or Wade or Pierce or other elite player for 8 years of his career like some of the best players ever were blessed with.

I've been wishing for a defensive quality center next to Dirk for about a decade....the first year we finally get it....Dirk leads a huge underdog team to the title and plays about as clutch as possible. Just makes me wish he had teams like this throughout his prime or from 03 to present. I have no doubt Dirk would have racked up a few more titles and would be close to a top 10 player of all time the way people rank here.

Just imagine Pierce/Dirk...and a defensive center in the mold of Chandler. Would have been sick.

[Jacks3]

maybe offensive or just scoring.......but all around KG in 03-04 was definitely better than any version of Dirk.......no contest!!

24PPG 14RPG 5APG 1.5SPG 2BPG 50FG%
Advance stats: PER 29.2 18.3WS

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2004.html
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[brisbaneman]

Sadly we will never really know what KG would have been capable of. He wasted his career on average at best teams in Minny with no real chance to win anything.

Dirk played with much better help, but we'll also sadly never know what Dirk's career would have looked like playing with a Melo or Wade or Pierce or other elite player for 8 years of his career like some of the best players ever were blessed with.

I've been wishing for a defensive quality center next to Dirk for about a decade....the first year we finally get it....Dirk leads a huge underdog team to the title and plays about as clutch as possible. Just makes me wish he had teams like this throughout his prime or from 03 to present. I have no doubt Dirk would have racked up a few more titles and would be close to a top 10 player of all time the way people rank here.

Just imagine Pierce/Dirk...and a defensive center in the mold of Chandler. Would have been sick.


Yeah and you can attribute Garnett's rebounding stats to not playing with any big centers, as well.

Dirk had more help but the other teams (la, sac, spurs) were all far more talented and more well built so it's not like he was much more fortunate than garnett.

[Jacks3]

He's had defensive bigs before,and All-Stars,and shooters,and excellent benches and plenty of talented teams capable of winning it all. Dork fans and their revisionist history. :oldlol:

[DevilsAssassin]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RaOrchOImw8/TRvK2XxhgRI/AAAAAAAApQo/pQWBeyZ7LP0/s1600/Kevin+Garnett.jpg

Led the league in PER, WS%, WS48, DRB%

Led the Minnesota Timberwolves to the best record in the league 58-26

Lost in 6 games to the Los Angeles Lakers

Game 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc8jjcJUkco
Game 5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7YczTWvGE0

****ing Solid. This is one of the Greatest Peaks of All Time.

[brisbaneman]

He's had defensive bigs before,and All-Stars,and shooters,and excellent benches and plenty of talented teams capable of winning it all. Dork fans and their revisionist history. :oldlol:

who were these guys? I missed that part.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah and you can attribute Garnett's rebounding stats to not playing with any big centers, as well.

Dirk had more help but the other teams (la, sac, spurs) were all far more talented and more well built so it's not like he was much more fortunate than garnett.

Well, this is where we disagree a little. I think Dirk clearly had much more help than KG. That doesn't mean Dirk had championship teams each year, but he just definitely had much better teams.

So I can't really penalize KG all that much for not winning many playoff games outside of 1 year.

At the same time though, Dirk turned those better teams into one of the most impressive regular season 11 plus year runs in NBA history. Maybe the most impressive considering the huge amount of turnover of players and coaches and the overall talent he played with compared to the likes of the russell celtics, magic/kareem lakers, and the duncan spurs.

Everyone that insists Dirk played with elite help conveniently forgets what Dirk did with that help.

[DevilsAssassin]

He's had defensive bigs before,and All-Stars,and shooters,and excellent benches and plenty of talented teams capable of winning it all. Dork fans and their revisionist history. :oldlol:

Yeah. Imagine if Kevin Garnett had Steve Nash, Michael Finely and all those other good role/solid players Dirk had in all those years and see what he does

[DMAVS41]

who were these guys? I missed that part.

he'll list off diop or something. ignoring that diop was basically worth 4 points and 5 boards a game....in something around 20 minutes.

he might even be so bold to rattle of dampier....which any mavs fan knows is just laughable. talk about a guy that just basically quit after his contract....what a joke.

[DevilsAssassin]

who were these guys? I missed that part.

Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Antoine Walker, Josh Howard, Jason Terry, ......

[brisbaneman]

Yeah. Imagine if Kevin Garnett had Steve Nash, Michael Finely and all those other good role/solid players Dirk had in all those years and see what he does

Would he have beat shaq/kobe, the spurs, or Kings? Doubtful. Finley by that point was strictly a jump shooter who played no defense, but Nash and KG would be a lot better than Nash and Dirk. Still, that Mavs team had no Center whatsoever. They'd lose 2nd round.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah. Imagine if Kevin Garnett had Steve Nash, Michael Finely and all those other good role/solid players Dirk had in all those years and see what he does

but its different. each player would fit better on certain teams. kg would have fit better on some of the mavs teams....especially the ones pre 2005.

however, playing run and gun....with that many terrible defenders around him? not sure it works. just look at 02. he had billups and wally going off against the mavs and the wolves got roasted.

finley and nash are two just truly awful defensive players. kg would improve the defense, but the offense would also dip because he simply couldn't do the things dirk did.

[brisbaneman]

Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Antoine Walker, Josh Howard, Jason Terry, ......

so one past his prime, another before his prime and 3 who were role players that were never 2nd options? Sounds about right.

[DevilsAssassin]

so one past his prime, another before his prime and 3 who were role players that were never 2nd options? Sounds about right.

it sounds a lot better than what KG dealt with until he was traded to Boston.

[brisbaneman]

it sounds a lot better than what KG dealt with until he was traded to Boston.

It was better than what KG had but nowhere as good as the kings, spurs, or lakers so it wouldn't have mattered.

[DevilsAssassin]

It was better than what KG had but nowhere as good as the kings, spurs, or lakers so it wouldn't have mattered.

considering what KG was able to do with Sam Cassell and "No Money to feed family".......i'm sure the team would be as good as the Kings, Spurs, and Lakers.

[brisbaneman]

considering what KG was able to do with Sam Cassell and "No Money to feed family".......i'm sure the team would be as good as the Kings, Spurs, and Lakers.

You mean "lead" a team past Denver and a post-microfracture Webber in 7? Not exactly a world beating accomplishment. And many would consider sprewell/cassell better than nash/finley by the way

[DaPerceive]

Garnett would have fit in better with Nash-Finley than Dirk did. That doesn't mean Garnett is better though. I am sure there were some T'Wolves teams that Dirk would have fit in better than KG did as well.

Garnett would have no chance to do what Dirk did in 06 or in 11 with Dirk's team. The same can be said if you were to switch KG with Dirk in the 08 and 10 Celtics.

These players are very different. I don't think using teammates is a reliable variable in this comparison.

[Harison]

Since Dirk isnt on the KG's level as a player at their respective peaks, he would have to clearly surpass with accolades, i.e. winning few more rings, etc.

More extensive analysis:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223610

[Jacks3]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RaOrchOImw8/TRvK2XxhgRI/AAAAAAAApQo/pQWBeyZ7LP0/s1600/Kevin+Garnett.jpg

Led the league in PER, WS%, WS48, DRB%

Led the Minnesota Timberwolves to the best record in the league 58-26

Lost in 6 games to the Los Angeles Lakers

Game 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc8jjcJUkco
Game 5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7YczTWvGE0

****ing Solid. This is one of the Greatest Peaks of All Time.
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Anybody who thinks Dork is better than KG is a moron. They're not even close as players.

[Jacks3]

Yeah. Imagine if Kevin Garnett had Steve Nash, Michael Finely and all those other good role/solid players Dirk had in all those years and see what he does
2-3 rings easily.They'd be dominant on both sides of the ball.

[RRR3]

Honestly, I think this thread is an insult to KG. Get over Dirk winning a ring already. :facepalm

[DaPerceive]

2-3 rings easily.They'd be dominant on both sides of the ball.
With Don Nelson as the coach, really?

[DirkNowitzki41]

Honestly, I think this thread is an insult to KG. Get over Dirk winning a ring already. :facepalm

u mad kg cant do what dirk did in the playoffs?

[Inception28]

u mad kg cant do what dirk did in the playoffs?
Bet he ain't mad that he doesn't look like you tho

http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/1546183172/260378_2116843234350_1043819153_32450739_3166462_n _reasonably_small.jpg

[Balla_Status]

DMAVS41 back at it. SMH, you seem to argue this topic a lot for someone who claims to have KG ahead of Dirk. :oldlol: You can stop pretending to be objective now, we don't believe you.

So what happened to a Dirk-led team never winning a championship?

[oolalaa]

Nowitzki >> Garnett

Enough said :pimp:

[KGMN]

Nowitzki >> Garnett

Enough said :pimp:

Enough said? Not really. If you're going to make a claim like that, you better back yourself up.

[KGMN]

he'll list off diop or something. ignoring that diop was basically worth 4 points and 5 boards a game....in something around 20 minutes.

he might even be so bold to rattle of dampier....which any mavs fan knows is just laughable. talk about a guy that just basically quit after his contract....what a joke.

You guys may have had Diop or Dampier at center, but Minnesota's starting center was Ervin Johnson (not Magic). He averaged 1.9 points and 3.5 rebounds while starting the most games at center for the Timberwolves. If you talk about Dallas' misfortune at center, you need to look at Minnesota's also. And Minnesota's Erick Dampier was Michael Olowokandi.

[brisbaneman]

Honestly, I think this thread is an insult to KG. Get over Dirk winning a ring already. :facepalm

Like all lebron fans, winning doesn't seem to matter much to you.

[Nelson14]

Kg is still a tier higher

[knickswin]

Man, I like KG's game a lot. He is a solid post player, great midrange shooter, smart passer, and good rebounder and defender. I would LOVE to pair a prime KG with Carmelo. That'd be some beautiful basketball. But I always thought people made him out to be something that he wasn't. He just wasn't that good of a scorer. Not bad obviously, but even when he was on the Wolves, I'm not sure he was always the best scorer on his team. Pierce is definitely a better scorer and Ray is too in some ways. Where are the games where you're like, man this dude is going HAM? There really aren't that many with KG, especially in the playoffs.

The Wolves were never well built and to some extent it's understandable that he had a lousy playoff record while in Minnesota, but when you start trying to push for him as the greatest PF of all time, or the second greatest PF of all time or whatever, those failures have to be brought up. Getting out of the first round ONCE in eleven years is pretty inexcusable for a guy that some would argue is the greatest PF ever.

[DMAVS41]

You guys may have had Diop or Dampier at center, but Minnesota's starting center was Ervin Johnson (not Magic). He averaged 1.9 points and 3.5 rebounds while starting the most games at center for the Timberwolves. If you talk about Dallas' misfortune at center, you need to look at Minnesota's also. And Minnesota's Erick Dampier was Michael Olowokandi.

I have never once said KG played with anywhere close to the help Dirk got in Dallas.

[RRR3]

Like all lebron fans, winning doesn't seem to matter much to you.
KG has won just as much as Dirk has, you ****ing ******.

[Inception28]

KG has won just as much as Dirk has, you ****ing ******.
How many finals MVPs, you ****ing ******.

[RRR3]

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: .
:violin:

[D-Wade316]

How many finals MVPs, you ****ing ******.
How many defensive awards does Dirk have? :pimp:

[Inception28]

How many defensive awards does Dirk have? :pimp:
Good question, how many defensive player awards does Michael Cooper have?

1 MVP + 1 Finals MVP > 1 MVP + DPOY

Truth.

[D-Wade316]

Good question, how many defensive player awards does Michael Cooper have?

1 MVP + 1 Finals MVP > 1 MVP + DPOY

Truth.
KG>>>>>>>>>>>Cooper

It ain't even close

[Harison]

How many finals MVPs, you ****ing ******.
Actually KG was the true Finals MVP of the Celtics, people just like to vote for the streaky scorers, same as Parker over Duncan.

Facts of '08 Playoffs:

Garnett 20.4/10.5/3.3, 49.5% FG, 25.0% 3PT, 81.0% FT
Pierce 19.7/5.0/4.6, 44.1% FG, 36.1% 3PT, 80.2% FT

Advanced stats:

Garnett DRtg 99, OWS 2.1, DWS 2.0, WS 4.1, PER 23.0
Pierce DRtg 105, OWS 1.6, DWS 1.3, WS 3.0, PER 17.4

Finals stats:
Garnett 18.2/13.0/3.0/1.7/1.0, 42.9% FG
Pierce 21.8/4.5/6.3/1.2/0.3, 43.2% FG

Even though KG had better overall stats in the Finals, his efficiency dipped, why? Because he got sole attention of Lakers defense, KG was double-triple teamed (sometimes he had two defenders all over him even when he didnt had the ball!), while Pierce got single coverage of the worst wing defender, or was even wide open. Much like some fans say "Pierce outplayed Kobe in the Finals", not really - Kobe was the sole focus of Celtics defense, and Pierce got a field day with no defensive pressure.

"but Pierce is the closer, not KG!"

Not really, KG was BY FAR the most important Celtics scorer in the 4th quarter in the playoffs. The most points in the 4Q, the best efficiency, the best rebounding, anchor of one of the best defenses ever. Combine total impact, and it definitely proves who should have been Finals MVP.

[Go Getter]

Actually KG was the true Finals MVP of the Celtics, people just like to vote for the streaky scorers, same as Parker over Duncan.

Facts of '08 Playoffs:

Garnett 20.4/10.5/3.3, 49.5% FG, 25.0% 3PT, 81.0% FT
Pierce 19.7/5.0/4.6, 44.1% FG, 36.1% 3PT, 80.2% FT

Advanced stats:

Garnett DRtg 99, OWS 2.1, DWS 2.0, WS 4.1, PER 23.0
Pierce DRtg 105, OWS 1.6, DWS 1.3, WS 3.0, PER 17.4

Finals stats:
Garnett 18.2/13.0/3.0/1.7/1.0, 42.9% FG
Pierce 21.8/4.5/6.3/1.2/0.3, 43.2% FG

Even though KG had better overall stats in the Finals, his efficiency dipped, why? Because he got sole attention of Lakers defense, KG was double-triple teamed (sometimes he had two defenders all over him even when he didnt had the ball!), while Pierce got single coverage of the worst wing defender, or was even wide open. Much like some fans say "Pierce outplayed Kobe in the Finals", not really - Kobe was the sole focus of Celtics defense, and Pierce got a field day with no defensive pressure.

"but Pierce is the closer, not KG!"

Not really, KG was BY FAR the most important Celtics scorer in the 4th quarter in the playoffs. The most points in the 4Q, the best efficiency, the best rebounding, anchor of one of the best defenses ever. Combine total impact, and it definitely proves who should have been Finals MVP.
Proof?

[Harison]

Proof?
'08 Playoffs 4th quarter by drza:

"KG was the Celtics' leading scorer in all pivotal games where the series was tied and the winner would take the series lead: KG 22.6 ppg, Pierce 20.5 ppg in 10 such games (this includes, by the way, Pierce

[greensborohill]

I know.


fvcking pvssy

[Mach_3]

[QUOTE=Harison]'08 Playoffs 4th quarter by drza:

"KG was the Celtics' leading scorer in all pivotal games where the series was tied and the winner would take the series lead: KG 22.6 ppg, Pierce 20.5 ppg in 10 such games (this includes, by the way, Pierce

[DaPerceive]

:applause: Anyone who thinks KG didn't deserve that 08 finals MVP clearly didn't watch that series close enough
Too bad what he said had to do with the 2008 Playoffs heading into the NBA Finals and not the 2008 NBA Finals itself. The 2008 finals MVP was between Pierce and Ray, Garnett was not even a consideration at the time.

[nayte]

Im not into the who's higher in rankings bit buut if I was gonna build a new team I would take Dirk over KG.Top notch scorers with unlimited range are harder to find IMO..

[WoGiTaLiA1]

I notice the OP conveniently left off the All Defense team selections and tried to gloss over defense with "Just one DPOY" like that was symbolic of the vast difference between the two on defense.

That is the big difference between the two, that and that Dirk has had vastly superior support casts and ownership in comparison to Garnett throughout their careers.

That all said, Dirk is absolutely in that same realm, I feel like he got discounted through the early part of his career until he actually became underrated and then people are shocked when he does what he did last year. Dirk is one of the greatest offensive forwards the league has seen, he absolutely is better than Garnett who was efficient but no where near dominant as an offensive player. Garnett put up good efficient offensive numbers but did not have the skillset to ever dominate that end of the court. That was the knock when comparing him to a Shaq or Duncan and remains so against a Dirk. The difference is that were Duncan and Shaq were comparable on defense, Dirk is not.

So I guess it just comes down to what you favour, the dominant offensive player with mediocre defense or the very good offensive player with great defense.

[brisbaneman]

I notice the OP conveniently left off the All Defense team selections and tried to gloss over defense with "Just one DPOY" like that was symbolic of the vast difference between the two on defense.

That is the big difference between the two, that and that Dirk has had vastly superior support casts and ownership in comparison to Garnett throughout their careers.

That all said, Dirk is absolutely in that same realm, I feel like he got discounted through the early part of his career until he actually became underrated and then people are shocked when he does what he did last year. Dirk is one of the greatest offensive forwards the league has seen, he absolutely is better than Garnett who was efficient but no where near dominant as an offensive player. Garnett put up good efficient offensive numbers but did not have the skillset to ever dominate that end of the court. That was the knock when comparing him to a Shaq or Duncan and remains so against a Dirk. The difference is that were Duncan and Shaq were comparable on defense, Dirk is not.

So I guess it just comes down to what you favour, the dominant offensive player with mediocre defense or the very good offensive player with great defense.

Wow, good job at completely selling Dirk short and overselling Garnett to try to back your guy.