Ok now I'm officially against the players.

[ConanRulesNBC]

I'm not going to say how great the owners are. But the players look like idiots by not taking this deal. I stayed out of taking sides until this point. But the players are being morons and are only going to hurt themselves even worse than they think they are right now. Now they're going to get a much worse deal offered to them and by that point they'll have to accept and look like a bunch of fools by not taking a better deal right now.

Freakin' idiots. This really makes me hate all pro sports and athletes. At least the NFL players were smart enough to make a deal and get a season in. I can't say the same about the NBA players.

[LBJFTW]

Agreed

[icewill36]

i was pro player when this began.... not anymore

[B-Low]

cosigned 100%

If I hear them talk about "for the fans" one more time...

[Deuce Bigalow]

same, after hearing Stern's side, :facepalm @ the players

[Mr Know It All]

This just screams NHL Lockout 2004-2005. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Let's all hope the players can obtain better leadership for themselves in the future, this is total suicide what they have done. I'm so frustrated right now, and not even because there will be no season (although I am certainly not happy about that) but because of the absolute stupidity and insanity involved with how the players have handled this.:facepalm

[DuMa]

you were officially against them since day 1.

[ConanRulesNBC]

I'm waiting for Sarcastic to join in and say "blah blah blah the players shouldn't take this deal blah blah blah why are you against the players? it's all about money blah blah blah". Idiot.

[ConanRulesNBC]

you were officially against them since day 1.

Nah. Not really. I was against this idea that the players are some how being screwed even though they're already making and will continue to make millions of dollars even with the deal the owners were offering. Now I'm just coming out and saying the players are morons for not doing this.

[Applause]

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[IGOTGAME]

Nah. Not really. I was against this idea that the players are some how being screwed even though they're already making and will continue to make millions of dollars even with the deal the owners were offering. Now I'm just coming out and saying the players are morons for not doing this.

Don't think someone with your iq should ever call someone a moron. just saying.

[bagelred]

It's been the owners fault from Day 1. The players have been butt f-cked hard in this negotiation since the beginning and they finally got tired of it. Like someone said, it's like the owners are winning the game by 30 points and instead of taking the victory and being a good sport, they keep trying to run up the score. Well, when you do that, eventually someone's gonna punch you in the face.

The players gave the owners everything they needed and wanted, and conceded on every issue.....and the owners kept wanting more. Players finally said F you. Is it right? Don't know, but owners basically pushed players into this.

[mlh1981]

Any public perception/popularity gains they have made since the end of what was a magical season last year have now all been lost. The casual fan has probably jumped off board by now, and NBA arenas are going to be very empty whenever NBA basketball resumes.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Don't think someone with your iq should ever call someone a moron. just saying.

:roll:

I'm pretty sure I'm smarter than a lot of these dumbass NBA players who barely made it out of high school and only made it to college on basketball alone.

[Rab]

As much as it has pained me, I have tended to side more with the owners throughout, especially over the last couple months. I say painfully because it means I am supporting Robert Sarver, who I hate with a passion, and David Stern, who over the last 5 years or so, has really lost me.

The players have been vanilla and transparent through this process over the last couple months, claiming they care about the fans, and the arena workers and local business owners who stand to lose out on a lot here. I'm tired of Billy Hunter and Derek Fisher giving the same repetitive statements over and over in every press conference.

The players had their way for a long, long time. The system is broken. I know they don't want to accept things have to chance, but they do, and resisting this deal will do them no good.

[LBJ 23]

But if Hunter acted on his own behalf, and if majority of the players would vote for the deal then it's not really players fault, is it?

[JohnnyWall]

But if Hunter acted on his own behalf, and if majority of the players would vote for the deal then it's not really players fault, is it?

They didn't vote.

[ConanRulesNBC]

The majority of the players then should say they want Hunter gone and take this deal.

[StacksOnDeck]

You guys are too stupid to realize that this happened because Stern said he's done negotiating and if they don't accept, they're getting the other horrible deal. Does that seem like he's negotiating in good faith? If Stern never said that, they would be negotiating right now. They had no choice. If they don't like the deal, they shouldn't accept it. They don't care about you guys. Anyone above the age of 10 should know fans only matter when they have a new shoe coming out.

[trabash]

Agreed, players too greedy :facepalm

[LBJ 23]

They didn't vote.


I know they didn't. Hence the word WOULD. But I think it was said that majority of the players would accept the deal.

[LBJ 23]

The majority of the players then should say they want Hunter gone and take this deal.


Agreed.

[2LeTTeRS]

I have hated the way the owners and Stern handled this lock-out from the beginning and I still feel that way. I truly believe a large number of their ranks never wanted a season, and their collective actions reflects that.

[senelcoolidge]

The players got played..now the sleazy lawyers will take over the talks and make big money. This is disgusting.

[CLTHornets4eva]

I am definately against the players, BUT they haven't decertified they have simply a disclaimer of intrest, potentially able to receive and accept a new CBA. A Duke professor of Sports Law discusses it below in a detailed explaination. http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_nba/2011/11/a-duke-law-prof-on-the-nba-labor-mess.html

[Dizzle-2k7]

the audacity and arrogance of the players is sickening..

millions to play BASKETBALL and they accuse the owners of being greedy?.. the same dudes who write their checks and make them the millionaires they are?

:facepalm

[copper]

I have hated the way the owners and Stern handled this lock-out from the beginning and I still feel that way. I truly believe a large number of their ranks never wanted a season, and their collective actions reflects that.
yes, why would they want to make millions? I dont understand why the players ( employees) feel they deserve so much more than the owners are willing to give. The players have enjoyed the benefit of 100+ million dollar contracts for a while now.and that system is broken...there should b a hard cap as to what a player can max out on, thus bringing up the base on what the lowest a player can make is. the extra saved could then be used in the retirement package for players. I just dont understand the greed....I mean I would venture to say at least 99.9% of the posters on this board would be happy with a minmum salary of 1 of these players.

[Sarcastic]

I have hated the way the owners and Stern handled this lock-out from the beginning and I still feel that way. I truly believe a large number of their ranks never wanted a season, and their collective actions reflects that.

Basically. They gave them a deal that they knew the players would never agree to. The league has an incredible PR machine that has been able to spin it so that people think the players were offered a fair deal and are just greedy for not accepting it.

This deal had absolutely no concessions made to the players. Everything was taken from them, and nothing given at all. Even in the NHL CBA after the lockout, the league made concessions to the players.

[Sarcastic]

yes, why would they want to make millions? I dont understand why the players ( employees) feel they deserve so much more than the owners are willing to give. The players have enjoyed the benefit of 100+ million dollar contracts for a while now.and that system is broken...there should b a hard cap as to what a player can max out on, thus bringing up the base on what the lowest a player can make is. the extra saved could then be used in the retirement package for players. I just dont understand the greed....I mean I would venture to say at least 99.9% of the posters on this board would be happy with a minmum salary of 1 of these players.

People usually complain when they see guys like Luke Walton make tons of money. Now you want to see more guys like that get paid as well?

[Bernie Nips]

Owners: Economy economy recession economy economy running at losses economy economy players are greedy economy economy ULTIMATUM ULTIMATUM ULTIMATUM NO NEGOTIATING ULTIMATUM.

Players (eventually): Okay, we'll take your BRI split, just give us a bit more freedom to move. That ain't got shit to do with the economy.

Owners: ...no.

Players: Aiight, decertify.

Owners: PLAYERS ARE NOT NEGOTIATING IN GOOD FAITH.

Public: BOW DOWN TO OUR STERN OVERLORD. PLAYERS ARE GREEDY.

[copper]

Owners: Economy economy recession economy economy running at losses economy economy players are greedy economy economy ULTIMATUM ULTIMATUM ULTIMATUM NO NEGOTIATING ULTIMATUM.

Players (eventually): Okay, we'll take your BRI split, just give us a bit more freedom to move. That ain't got shit to do with the economy.

Owners: ...no.

Players: Aiight, decertify.

Owners: PLAYERS ARE NOT NEGOTIATING IN GOOD FAITH.

Public: BOW DOWN TO OUR STERN OVERLORD. PLAYERS ARE GREEDY.
wow, been drinkin from the players kool aid jug?

[Bernie Nips]

wow, been drinkin from the players kool aid jug?

FACT: Stern was the one who ended negotations with ultimatums and deadlines. This is not negotiating in good faith.

FACT: Stern comes out now that the players have issued an ultimatum and said they are not negotiating in good faith.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Care to challenge that?

[bagelred]

Owners: Economy economy recession economy economy running at losses economy economy players are greedy economy economy ULTIMATUM ULTIMATUM ULTIMATUM NO NEGOTIATING ULTIMATUM.

Players (eventually): Okay, we'll take your BRI split, just give us a bit more freedom to move. That ain't got shit to do with the economy.

Owners: ...no.

Players: Aiight, decertify.

Owners: PLAYERS ARE NOT NEGOTIATING IN GOOD FAITH.

Public: BOW DOWN TO OUR STERN OVERLORD. PLAYERS ARE GREEDY.

Basically.....the public is falling for the "we so poor" act of the owners. "We can't afford this."

WTF? They get tax breaks, public paid for arenas, 100% of the franchise valuation increases, sponsorship deals, benefits to their other businesses, bragging rights, etc. etc. etc.....all the perks of owning a team for these billionaires.....

sniff sniff.......we can't compete, we're in a small market........what a crock of sh-t..........

Players FINALLY responded to getting royally f-cked in the asshole.........

[InspiredLebowski]

Well, if there's a silver lining it's that Hunter and Stern are clearly gone whenever this thing ends. The "best commish in sports" now has two labor stoppages on his watch.

[StacksOnDeck]

Owners: Economy economy recession economy economy running at losses economy economy players are greedy economy economy ULTIMATUM ULTIMATUM ULTIMATUM NO NEGOTIATING ULTIMATUM.

Players (eventually): Okay, we'll take your BRI split, just give us a bit more freedom to move. That ain't got shit to do with the economy.

Owners: ...no.

Players: Aiight, decertify.

Owners: PLAYERS ARE NOT NEGOTIATING IN GOOD FAITH.

Public: BOW DOWN TO OUR STERN OVERLORD. PLAYERS ARE GREEDY.

This. Kudos to the NBA for their PR. It's a lockout, not a strike. Owners are the reason why there's no basketball.

[icewill36]

FACT: Stern was the one who ended negotations with ultimatums and deadlines. This is not negotiating in good faith.

FACT: Stern comes out now that the players have issued an ultimatum and said they are not negotiating in good faith.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Care to challenge that?

stern did not end negotiations... he simply said they were done negotiating at 50/50. if they did not take the deal it was going back to 47 to account for what has been lost thus far this season with the players not accepting any deals

[StacksOnDeck]

stern did not end negotiations... he simply said they were done negotiating at 50/50. if they did not take the deal it was going back to 47 to account for what has been lost thus far this season with the players not accepting any deals

That's ending negotiation. If you don't take this horrible deal, we're going back to the other awful deal that we know you guys wouldn't want. Stern has brainwashed so many people, it's a joke.

[PowerGlove]

the owners piss me off. They have been shady from the very beginning and quite frankly they base their whole stance off the fact that 22 teams lost money last year. A fact that I still dont believe.

[InspiredLebowski]

Apparently T. Van Den Spiegel is a pro player in Belgium

https://twitter.com/#!/tomasvds/status/136186121737613312 (https://twitter.com/#%21/tomasvds/status/136186121737613312)

Looks like there won't be an NBA season. You are all welcome 2 come overseas and get your asses whooped. Let's see how many of you will last

:oldlol: never heard of this dude but I like him

[ConanRulesNBC]

Basically.....the public is falling for the "we so poor" act of the owners. "We can't afford this."

WTF? They get tax breaks, public paid for arenas, 100% of the franchise valuation increases, sponsorship deals, benefits to their other businesses, bragging rights, etc. etc. etc.....all the perks of owning a team for these billionaires.....

sniff sniff.......we can't compete, we're in a small market........what a crock of sh-t..........

Players FINALLY responded to getting royally f-cked in the asshole.........

I'm not falling for the owners. I know they can afford to pay these players what they want. But they're not going to. This is the deal that they're offering and the players should just accept it.

[Sarcastic]

stern did not end negotiations... he simply said they were done negotiating at 50/50. if they did not take the deal it was going back to 47 to account for what has been lost thus far this season with the players not accepting any deals

Are you trying to say that being done negotiating is not ending a negotiation?

The 47/53 is a non starter to begin with and Stern knows this. The players aren't going to accept a deal which puts them as the worst paid players of the 4 major sports leagues, despite them being most important to its success.

[PowerGlove]

I'm not falling for the owners. I know they can afford to pay these players what they want. But they're not going to. This is the deal that they're offering and the players should just accept it.
You sound like a f*cking loser with that mentality. They should fight for what they deserve. No way would I accept that deal either. The players have been way more than reasonable. Shit, its not like they need the NBA to get paid, all of them can find a team overseas.

[icewill36]

That's ending negotiation. If you don't take this horrible deal, we're going back to the other awful deal that we know you guys wouldn't want. Stern has brainwashed so many people, it's a joke.

the fact is this was the best deal they were going to get. doing all of this is not helping them at all, so why wouldnt you take the deal ?

all im reading in all these player tweets is how they wont be "bullied" or "strong armed"

these guys have let emotions cloud their judgment, basically acting like b!tches instead of businessmen

THE DEAL WAS NOT BAD

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You sound like a f*cking loser with that mentality.

On the contrary, he sounds like a fan who wants NBA basketball.

[ConanRulesNBC]

You sound like a f*cking loser with that mentality.

What mentality? How are these greedy players not stupid for not taking this deal? They're going to end up taking an even worse deal than is currently being offered.

Now I can't wait to see some of these idiots go broke.

[icewill36]

Are you trying to say that being done negotiating is not ending a negotiation?

The 47/53 is a non starter to begin with and Stern knows this. The players aren't going to accept a deal which puts them as the worst paid players of the 4 major sports leagues, despite them being most important to its success.

4th worst paid huh ? fitting since they are 4th most popular....

players have been overpaid since 99, deal with it.

[PowerGlove]

On the contrary, he sounds like a fan who wants NBA basketball.
Someone gives you a shitty offer and you just submit because you want something?


4th worst paid huh ? fitting since they are 4th most popular....

players have been overpaid since 99, deal with it.

4th most popular out of what? The NBA has been getting better ratings than the MLB and NHL.

[Bernie Nips]

4th worst paid huh ? fitting since they are 4th most popular....

players have been overpaid since 99, deal with it.

Total NFL players: ~1,700
Total MLB players: ~750
Total NHL players: ~1,500


...


Total NBA players: 360

And they're getting paid the worst. Doesn't make sense.

[copper]

since when does a owner of a business Have to give the workers a 50% or better revenue share? anyone? thats right...never. If the owners feel they are not generating the revenue they want...guess what? they can and did shut the tap off for these millionaire morons. let them go overseas or let them get a real job. cant survive on a few million dollars a year? maybe you dont need a raise, maybe you need better decisions to be made for you. I cant even imagine the audacity it would take to walk into my bosses office and tell him, " ya know what? you made a hell of a lot more money than me last year, you need to split that with me".... are you friggin kidding me? As far as Stern not bargaining in good faith? he gave an offer, which was rejected, he gave another offer that was rejected..so whats wrong with him saying, look this is a waste of our time to continue with empty avenues, the players want something they arent gonna get, so until they decide to accept it....end talks.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Someone gives you a shitty offer and you just submit because you want something?

The players looked stupid today. This isn't even a matter of my opinion that they're paid a ridiculous amount of money to play a sport. That's a whole different discussion.

This is my opinion that there's no way they're going to get a better deal offered than this and they look like idiots for turning it down when they're going to get offered and accept a worse deal in a month or so from now.

[InspiredLebowski]

NBA players routinely make by FAR the biggest average salary.

NBA - 5.15 mil
MLB - 3.31
NHL - 2.4
NFL - 1.9

[DMAVS41]

No...he sounds like a loser. If they take this crappy deal, there will be another lockout after this CBA expires.

First off, its really not a crappy deal given the current climate and future uncertainty.

Second, even if it was a crappy deal, business wise it should be taken because the alternatives make less sense. This is exactly what "power" and "leverage" do in a negotiation. They work hugely in favor of the side that have them. The owners have them.

I would understand more if the owners were holding to their demands about wanting 57% BRI, a hard cap, salary roll backs, non guaranteed contracts...etc.

But they aren't doing that. The logical place for a lot of this is where we are now. The players had it way too good the last decade and they got spoiled. Those days are over....they ended with the last CBA. Its a new deal for a new day.

The players are now operating far more out of ego and pride than out of business sense. I just hope the courts favor the players so we can get back to basketball as quickly as possible...because if the courts favor the owners....we honestly might not have the NBA for 2 full years.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Someone gives you a shitty offer and you just submit because you want something?

Stern put it best: This sham of magically we're taking the union and performing an act of magic and it will become something else...it's just a big charade. And it's irresponsible given the timing of it. Their timing is not very good. Their rhetoric is almost humorous in terms of this magical trick that is going to allow them to improve their negotiating position.

They aren't going to get a better deal, that's the point. Lets see how many players can go a full season without a paycheck, because the way things are looking now, I'm seriously doubtful we do have a season. Both sides have officially gone hardline.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Total NFL players: ~1,700
Total MLB players: ~750
Total NHL players: ~1,500


...


Total NBA players: 360

And they're getting paid the worst. Doesn't make sense.

MLB, NFL and even the NHL in some markets are way more popular than the NBA.

[Jasper]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33289/union-makes-big-move-without-polling-members

a vote 30 / instead of 450 :confusedshrug:

I can't wait for next season .. .DL players starting while elite players playing in China :oldlol:

If the players bust the chops on the league in a law suit , trust me , not one owner will pay a player over 10 mill.

[Kellogs4toniee]

My biggest gripe isn't against the players, but against the union and figures who rep the players. I just read that the latest proposal wasn't even shown or mentioned to the player base, it was just shown to the 30 players who rep there respective teams. Now I understand what the purpose of a rep is, but I have a hard time believing 30 players truly represent what the majority of the 450 players feel in this situation.

For something of this magnitude and at this late, important, and obviously very crucial phase where each decimal point in percentages can make or break a deal, the Union should have shared it with all the 450 players. For those players who aren't on the rep teams, all there hearing from the reps is "the deal blows, we're not taking it." I strongly believe if most if not all of the 450 player base had a chance to really take a look at the most recent proposal and the numbers, the vast majority would have accepted it with the understanding that its best just to take it and let the season start.

Billy Hunter and the 30 player reps really did a horrible job during the last stretch of these negotations. Even more so then before. I would be surprised if more players do not come out in the following weeks bad-mouthing how bad of a job they have done.

That's my two cents, and why I am on the owners side. Stern has done a remarkable job of painting the players as the morons, ignorants, and bad guys in the media. This is lose lose for everyone, and now it just seems like the players keep digging themselves into a bigger hole negotiation by negotiation. Well played folks *NOT*

[G-train]

Now I can't wait to see some of these idiots go broke..

A decent % of them would be already. The ones that live cheque to cheque.

This is a 10-15 year deal or whatever.
I can understand Stern's offer.

His team understands the worlds econimics right now, and its projected economics.

The players act like they live in the moment.

For the nba to be guaranteed viability in 10 years it needs an owner favored deal where they make money.

Or there wont be a league.

I feel this is the worst things the players could have done.

It is a 'unfair' deal today, but it was essential for the future. The world is changing, not just the NBA.

Beginning of the end.... stupid lawyers for the PA just want more money.

:facepalm

out.

[InspiredLebowski]

By basically not taking this deal, however you want to view the act of doing that, the players will lose more money by missed games than they'd have "lost" (compared to the previous CBA) throughout the life of the new deal.

[nycelt84]

I'm happy to see David Stern being exposed as the overrated commissioner that he is.

[PowerGlove]

The players looked stupid today. This isn't even a matter of my opinion that they're paid a ridiculous amount of money to play a sport. That's a whole different discussion. That amount of money is ridiculous to you, you dont agree with it nor comprehend it, gotcha.


This is my opinion that there's no way they're going to get a better deal offered than this and they look like idiots for turning it down when they're going to get offered and accept a worse deal in a month or so from now.
I doubt that the owners will maintain their hardline stance once they realize that they arent making money at all while tons of players start balling overseas.

[StacksOnDeck]

By basically not taking this deal, however you want to view the act of doing that, the players will lose more money by missed games than they'd have "lost" (compared to the previous CBA) throughout the life of the new deal.

It's not about the money. Jesus christ, inform yourself. Economics were agreed to. 50/50 BRI. It's the system that needed tweaking.

[G-train]

I'm happy to see David Stern being exposed as the overrated commissioner that he is.

He's done a pretty good job with the NBA.
Look at the fruit, up til now.

[icewill36]

Someone gives you a shitty offer and you just submit because you want something?



4th most popular out of what? The NBA has been getting better ratings than the MLB and NHL.

no it hasnt.... even MLS is more popular than NBA is some places

NBA has the highest avg salary too, and guaranteed contracts

the players have it better than any other association but they dont see that. they look like a bunch of spoiled brats to me at this point

[InspiredLebowski]

It's not about the money. Jesus christ, inform yourself. Economics were agreed to. 50/50 BRI. It's the system that needed tweaking.And what I said is no less true.

[Kellogs4toniee]

That amount of money is ridiculous to you, you dont agree with it nor comprehend it, gotcha.


I doubt that the owners will maintain their hardline stance once they realize that they arent making money at all while tons of players start balling overseas.


Right, tell that to NHL.

[copper]

I'm happy to see David Stern being exposed as the overrated commissioner that he is.
how exactly is that happening?

[ConanRulesNBC]

I doubt that the owners will maintain their hardline stance once they realize that they arent making money at all while tons of players start balling overseas.

That's not going to happen. These leagues overseas were offering big contracts to players because it was so rare that some big name players go overseas. You think they can afford everyone now? If every big name player went overseas there's no way all of them would be offered these amazing great deals that some players currently are.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

no it hasnt.... even MLS is more popular than NBA is some places

Actually it has.

Check the latest Nielson ratings. Last seasons postseason was the second most watched sporting event behind Football (has been this way for about 3 years now). Overall, it's right there with Baseball and watched even moreso come May.

[Sarcastic]

NBA players routinely make by FAR the biggest average salary.

NBA - 5.15 mil
MLB - 3.31
NHL - 2.4
NFL - 1.9

That's because they generate the most revenue per player. They get paid based off revenues, just like the other sports.

[DMAVS41]

That amount of money is ridiculous to you, you dont agree with it nor comprehend it, gotcha.


I doubt that the owners will maintain their hardline stance once they realize that they arent making money at all while tons of players start balling overseas.


A majority of owners lose money. Pretty sure something around 20 teams lose money.

[InspiredLebowski]

That's because they generate the most revenue per player. They get paid based off revenues, just like the other sports.I'm not sure that's true, I don't know the revenue splits of all the other sports. Even with the NFL having thousands of players I'd imagine they still have a higher revenue/player ratio.

[Sarcastic]

First off, its really not a crappy deal given the current climate and future uncertainty.

Second, even if it was a crappy deal, business wise it should be taken because the alternatives make less sense. This is exactly what "power" and "leverage" do in a negotiation. They work hugely in favor of the side that have them. The owners have them.

I would understand more if the owners were holding to their demands about wanting 57% BRI, a hard cap, salary roll backs, non guaranteed contracts...etc.

But they aren't doing that. The logical place for a lot of this is where we are now. The players had it way too good the last decade and they got spoiled. Those days are over....they ended with the last CBA. Its a new deal for a new day.

The players are now operating far more out of ego and pride than out of business sense. I just hope the courts favor the players so we can get back to basketball as quickly as possible...because if the courts favor the owners....we honestly might not have the NBA for 2 full years.

What future uncertainty? Basketball was thriving last year.

[PowerGlove]

Right, tell that to NHL.
I dont remember NHL players ever having this many alternative places to play.

[Sarcastic]

I'm not sure that's true, I don't know the revenue splits of all the other sports. Even with the NFL having thousands of players I'd imagine they still have a higher revenue/player ratio.

They require 1700 players to generate 9 billion revenue. NBA has 450 players, and does 4.4 billion revenue. So three times as many players, and only double the revenue. Do the math.

[DMAVS41]

What future uncertainty? Basketball was thriving last year.

attendance for starters. you should read up on the projections about what future attendance could potentially look like.....

and the uncertainty now if fans will come back. you can't ignore that this lockout is driving fans away from the game. and its those casual fans that make all the difference.

die hard fans aren't enough. BRI will go down drastically in the years to come if a season is missed.

and there won't always be lebron james switching teams to drive up interest.

[copper]

What future uncertainty? Basketball was thriving last year.
most arenas were down in attendance last year. With the economy still down in many areas it is a certainty that attendance will be down in the future. Many fans just dont have the free money to spend on a ticket anymore. Which is part of the reason fans arent alligning with players over this whole deal. Many fans are out of jobs and have been downsized, and here are these millionaires fighting for more.

[PowerGlove]

[/B]

A majority of owners lose money. Pretty sure something around 20 teams lose money.

Did they ever do something after discussing revenue sharing?

[DMAVS41]

Did they ever do something after discussing revenue sharing?

I'm not sure. I know they have "claimed" that revenue sharing will increase greatly with the coming CBA....

[dak121]

I'm not going to say how great the owners are. But the players look like idiots by not taking this deal. I stayed out of taking sides until this point. But the players are being morons and are only going to hurt themselves even worse than they think they are right now. Now they're going to get a much worse deal offered to them and by that point they'll have to accept and look like a bunch of fools by not taking a better deal right now.

Freakin' idiots. This really makes me hate all pro sports and athletes. At least the NFL players were smart enough to make a deal and get a season in. I can't say the same about the NBA players.

Officially? You are naive. Probably the type that listens to sports radio and takes what those clowns say seriously.

[G-train]

What future uncertainty? Basketball was thriving last year.

The USA and the world's enonomic forecasts are not linked to the NBA.
It's the opposite.

[Kellogs4toniee]

I dont remember NHL players ever having this many alternative places to play.


Two main points. Contracts by Euro teams are now going to be significantly lower due to the entire 450 player base being pretty much free agents.
Second, quite a few NBA players... the few that have been given pretty attractive contracts so far becuase only a few have defected... have already given hints that living overseas, in a tottally different lifestyle, with a tottally different culture, foods, and language, is too much to bear. Not everyone can be an Adam Morrison or Jordan Farmar.

[Jasper]

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7234565

[NuggetsFan]

I dont remember NHL players ever having this many alternative places to play.

They have the same Euroleagues as the NBA. Over in Russia Hockey is huge. Pretty sure there's been big time prospects\players that have actually left the NHL to play in the KHL or whatever it's called. There's the Sweedish elite league. Finland.

Always nice to see somebody talk about something they have no f*cking clue about tho.

[PowerGlove]

Two main points. Contracts by Euro teams are now going to be significantly lower due to the entire 450 player base being pretty much free agents.
Second, quite a few NBA players... the few that have been given pretty attractive contracts so far becuase only a few have defected... have already given hints that living overseas, in a tottally different lifestyle, with a tottally different culture, foods, and language, is too much to bear. Not everyone can be an Adam Morrison or Jordan Farmar.
I understand what you're saying but there are multiple leagues and locals for players to choose from. Some can go to china as well as Europe.

[PowerGlove]

They have the same Euroleagues as the NBA. Over in Russia Hockey is huge. Pretty sure there's been big time prospects\players that have actually left the NHL to play in the KHL or whatever it's called. There's the Sweedish elite league. Finland.

Always nice to see somebody talk about something they have no f*cking clue about tho.
:sleeping

Call me when NHL players have a market like China as an alternative as well. SMH. Oh call me when NHL players can go an on a world tour like the elite nba players can too. There are more opportunities for basketball players plain and simple.

[Killer_Instinct]

What mentality? How are these greedy players not stupid for not taking this deal? They're going to end up taking an even worse deal than is currently being offered.

Now I can't wait to see some of these idiots go broke.


:rolleyes:

Those feminine traits you've accused the players of having? You're demonstrating them now. Stop sounding like a spiteful bitch.

[NuggetsFan]

:sleeping

Call me when NHL players have a market like China as an alternative as well. SMH. Oh call me when NHL players can go an on a world tour like the elite nba players can too. There are more opportunities for basketball players plain and simple.

Are you seriously that f*cking dense? You said call me when the NBA has as many alternative places to play. I told you they have the same Euroleague. Finish leagues, Sweedish leagues, Russian leagues. World tour? Ok call me when I see it. So far I'll I've seen are games are Rucker park or w.e witch is no different than shinny pick up games for hockey.

Can NHL players make as much money with alternatives? Obviously not because there not making as much money as NBA players from the get go. Did they have just as many places to atleast play and make a living? Yes. Just like the NBA players.

[Fiasco]

They have the same Euroleagues as the NBA. Over in Russia Hockey is huge. Pretty sure there's been big time prospects\players that have actually left the NHL to play in the KHL or whatever it's called. There's the Sweedish elite league. Finland.

Always nice to see somebody talk about something they have no f*cking clue about tho.

Well, most of the players who play in the SEL/KHL are players who can't get contracts in the NHL or AHL. The only good player that signed in Europe as a Free Agent was Jagr, and he's back in the NHL with Philly.

Most the good players start out in the european leagues, and then get drafted by NHL teams. European players are a lot more important in the NHL than they are in the NBA, that's for sure.

[Fiasco]

And as a side note: European teams offer NHL players waaaaaaaaaaay more money than they could ever get in the NHL. Tax free.

[IamSofaKing]

Players on twitter getting a lot of hate tweets.. And the players are blaming the other side in defense

[Fiasco]

Players on twitter getting a lot of hate tweets.. And the players are blaming the other side in defense

Welcome to the world where nobody is right. :oldlol:

[NuggetsFan]

Well, most of the players who play in the SEL/KHL are players who can't get contracts in the NHL or AHL. The only good player that signed in Europe as a Free Agent was Jagr, and he's back in the NHL with Philly.

Most the good players start out in the european leagues, and then get drafted by NHL teams. European players are a lot more important in the NHL than they are in the NBA, that's for sure.

They still could go back tho if the NHL shutdown for 2 years. Alot of players come out of those leagues. It's not like the NBA where guy's go to college and come out of the draft. Most of these guy's play over in europe(alot of the non north american players) and than when there ready they come to the NHL\enter the draft.

So as an alternative witch is the only thing I was talking about? It's really no different. If LeBron James wants to go play basketball he can go to Greece or w.e just like if Sidney Crosby wanted to play hockey he could go to the KHL.

Same alternatives(obviously with different pay outs because from the get go NBA players blow the NHL away in price tags).

[Kellogs4toniee]

I understand what you're saying but there are multiple leagues and locals for players to choose from. Some can go to china as well as Europe.


Clearly we are in disagreement here. You think the players can out-last the owners with all the viable options that they have. I believe there are too many forces that will ultimately make the players bend first given the leverage both financially and legally that the owners have. I'll just agree to disagree with your devils advocate role.

[ZenMaster]

Two main points. Contracts by Euro teams are now going to be significantly lower due to the entire 450 player base being pretty much free agents.
Second, quite a few NBA players... the few that have been given pretty attractive contracts so far becuase only a few have defected... have already given hints that living overseas, in a tottally different lifestyle, with a tottally different culture, foods, and language, is too much to bear. Not everyone can be an Adam Morrison or Jordan Farmar.


Too much to bear for these guys?

A select few can't handle it, but people live in other countries every day and it's no problem. Just like it's not a problem for most of the European players to go and adapt themselves into living in the US.

There are US players who come to Europe to live and play for money that is nowhere close to what the players in the major leagues get.

[PowerGlove]

Are you seriously that f*cking dense? You said call me when the NBA has as many alternative places to play. I told you they have the same Euroleague. Finish leagues, Sweedish leagues, Russian leagues. World tour? Ok call me when I see it. So far I'll I've seen are games are Rucker park or w.e witch is no different than shinny pick up games for hockey.

Can NHL players make as much money with alternatives? Obviously not because there not making as much money as NBA players from the get go. Did they have just as many places to atleast play and make a living? Yes. Just like the NBA players.

Are you talking to me? You drunk?

This is mind boggling, there was a world tour already organized but players dropped because negotiations were heating up again.

There are more places for an NBA player to play than an NHL player. You can't disagree with that at all.

[PowerGlove]

Clearly we are in disagreement here. You think the players can out-last the owners with all the viable options that they have. I believe there are too many forces that will ultimately make the players bend first given the leverage both financially and legally that the owners have. I'll just agree to disagree with your devils advocate role.
I dont think that at all. The players arent nearly as desperate as posters in here seem to think.

[copper]

I dont think that at all. The players arent nearly as desperate as posters in here seem to think.
some of the higher paid players might not be...but when you have idiots like antoine walker who can go from playing to bankrupt basically overnight...and he was paid pretty well when he played..yes there will be more players feeling the pinch than not.

[PowerGlove]

some of the higher paid players might not be...but when you have idiots like antoine walker who can go from playing to bankrupt basically overnight...and he was paid pretty well when he played..yes there will be more players feeling the pinch than not.
:confusedshrug:

that's purely speculation though. You cant just use Walker's case as an example that the players didnt manage their money correctly.

[Sarcastic]

attendance for starters. you should read up on the projections about what future attendance could potentially look like.....

and the uncertainty now if fans will come back. you can't ignore that this lockout is driving fans away from the game. and its those casual fans that make all the difference.

die hard fans aren't enough. BRI will go down drastically in the years to come if a season is missed.

and there won't always be lebron james switching teams to drive up interest.

Come on, please. Basketball is doing better than it has in the last 10 years. They have a new TV contract coming up. Here have a look at the history of their previous contracts. Notice the trend? What do you think the new one will be?


http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-tv-contracts.shtml

[copper]

:confusedshrug:

that's purely speculation though.
unless you have bank receipts for all players....so is your OPINION:hammerhead:

[NuggetsFan]

There are more places for an NBA player to play than an NHL player. You can't disagree with that at all.

lol what are you talking about ? I've told you like 3x now. If both leagues shut down .. both sets of players would have a world of options. There's a bunch of leagues for NHL players to play if they wanted too. KHL, Sweedish league, Finland league. You keep trying to say NHL players didn't have as many alternatives they do. An almost world tour doesn't erase the multiple hockey league across the world. Do the NBA players have more leagues to join? Maybe I honestly don't know. Do the NHL players have the same alternatives? They do. They can go to Europe just like NBA players are doing right now.

Not even sure what your trying to argue. NHL players had alternatives like the NBA. Period.

[PowerGlove]

lol what are you talking about ? I've told you like 3x now. If both leagues shut down .. both sets of players would have a world of options. There's a bunch of leagues for NHL players to play if they wanted too. KHL, Sweedish league, Finland league. You keep trying to say NHL players didn't have as many alternatives they do. An almost world tour doesn't erase the multiple hockey league across the world. Do the NBA players have more leagues to join? Maybe I honestly don't know. Do the NHL players have the same alternatives? They do. They can go to Europe just like NBA players are doing right now.

Not even sure what your trying to argue. NHL players had alternatives like the NBA. Period.
:wtf:

only on ish can people start an argument over nothing.:facepalm

I guess China/Australia dont exist now.

[2LeTTeRS]

some of the higher paid players might not be...but when you have idiots like antoine walker who can go from playing to bankrupt basically overnight...and he was paid pretty well when he played..yes there will be more players feeling the pinch than not.

The players have been told to prepare for a lockout for the last 2 years. If they chose not to, they still had the option to accept a contract in Europe or Asia somewhere to bring a few dollars in.

With that in mind, if they chose to blow all their money they have nobody to blame but themselves.

[ZenMaster]

Come on, please. Basketball is doing better than it has in the last 10 years. They have a new TV contract coming up. Here have a look at the history of their previous contracts. Notice the trend? What do you think the new one will be?


http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-tv-contracts.shtml

I still don't get how you can watch through a season of empty arenas and say basketball is doing better than ever.

[NuggetsFan]

:wtf:

only on ish can people start an argument over nothing.:facepalm


I dont remember NHL players ever having this many alternative places to play.

How's that nothing? I simply informed you that NHL players had the same Euroleague possibility. Heck Hockey\Europe outside of China could be bigger in area's like Russia, Finland, Germany etc. That was it.

Oh I see what you mean. Weather or not there's 12 basketball leagues oversea's or 7 NHL leagues I don't know or care. Point is they both have the same alternatives to go oversea's to multiple different leagues.

[Patrick Chewing]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the players rejected a 50/50 revenue split? So they want to make more than their bosses??

[TylerOO]

Cosign

[Jasper]

Like I said last month -

When the season is lost and the players tak it up the a$$

Billy Hunter will be out of job

[Fiasco]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the players rejected a 50/50 revenue split? So they want to make more than their bosses??

................ :facepalm

[Clutch]

Usually I make fun of Hollinger but he summed the whole situation in one sentence:

johnhollinger John Hollinger
We're going to miss an entire season over mid-level deals for tax teams. Congratulations, you're all idiots.
1 hour ago Favorite Retweet Reply

:applause:

[Fatal9]

Usually I make fun of Hollinger but he summed the whole situation in one sentence:

johnhollinger John Hollinger
We're going to miss an entire season over mid-level deals for tax teams. Congratulations, you're all idiots.
1 hour ago Favorite Retweet Reply

:applause:
And there's usually only 5-8 tax teams in a given year (probably will go down given the harsher penalities now), some of which don't even use their mid-level. Them not being able to compete for mid-level players doesn't mean those players won't get signed, it just means more talent is available for non-tax paying teams (usually small market teams) to choose from. Why the fukk wouldn't the average fan want a system like this? Players are mad that instead of having maybe 7-8 teams interested in their services, they might only be able to choose from like 5-6 of them....boo hoo.

Literally this affects maybe 5 players a year, and it doesn't mean players can't get the same contracts...just not with a tax paying team.

[JohnnyWall]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the players rejected a 50/50 revenue split? So they want to make more than their bosses??

Correct. And they want a say in how the company is run.

[2LeTTeRS]

And there's usually only 5-8 tax teams in a given year (probably will go down given the harsher penalities now), some of which don't even use their mid-level. Them not being able to compete for mid-level players doesn't mean those players won't get signed, it just means more talent is available for non-tax paying teams (usually small market teams) to choose from. Why the fukk wouldn't the average fan want a system like this? Players are mad that instead of having maybe 7-8 teams interested in their services, they might only be able to choose from like 5-6 of them....boo hoo.

Any time you reduce the number of interested suitors you lose bargaining power.


Literally this affects maybe 5 players a year, and it doesn't mean players can't get the same contracts...just not with a tax paying team.

I disagree. Even if you are right that only 5 teams use their MLE's each year, that doesn't include the players who used the possibility of defecting with one of those deals allowed them to get leverage while negotiating their contract.

[Blue&Orange]

I disagree. Even if you are right that only 5 teams use their MLE's each year, that doesn't include the players who used the possibility of defecting with one of those deals allowed them to get leverage while negotiating their contract.

And? in the end they will still get their money, it's called NBA escrow fund!Owners can't save money by paid less on contracts. Hello? Split revenue?
It's about dispersing talent on the league vs concentrating it on few teams.

A pro-player that doesn't know what he is talking about, how rare.

[Fatal9]

Any time you reduce the number of interested suitors you lose bargaining power.
It's a way to giving access to these players to teams who can't compete with the tax paying teams (usually very diserable locations/teams like Miami, LA, Boston, who have already spent money out of their ass to build contending teams). As a fan of a team that has had to use the MLE to overpay guys like Kapono just so he would consider playing here, this helps somewhat in keeping teams like the Raptors, Jazz, Bucks etc etc in the market for the these players. In the end, the players who were going to make mid-level will continue to make that money...they just won't be able to sign on to teams that have already exhausted all their spending. The "big dogs" shelling out money drive the market price of players up for everybody which results in a lot of bad contracts for small market teams who have to often overpay players to stay competitive in the market.

For fans of most teams, the changes in the system are great. For players who have been coddled and given a system that they have taken advantage of...not so much, and sorry if I don't sympathize with them.


I disagree. Even if you are right that only 5 teams use their MLE's each year, that doesn't include the players who used the possibility of defecting with one of those deals allowed them to get leverage while negotiating their contract.
According to the NBA, "taxpayers used the Mid-Level to sign only 9 players for $5 million or more during the prior CBA." So not even 5 a year...more like 2...

[2LeTTeRS]

And? in the end they will still get their money, it's called NBA escrow fund!Owners can't save money by paid less on contracts. Hello? Split revenue?
It's about dispersing talent on the league vs concentrating it on few teams.

A pro-player that doesn't know what he is talking about, how rare.

Your speaking about the players in the colllective, and in that respect your right the Players as a whole will get the same amount of money. However that was not what I was talking about. I'm talking about the way each individual player will be affected when it comes time to negotiate his own contract, and its undisputed that their will be less teams able to spend money which means less prospective employers.

Would have been nice if you figured that out before you claimed I didn't know what I was talking about.

[Blue&Orange]

Your speaking about the players in the colllective, and in that respect your right the Players as a whole will get the same amount of money. However that was not what I was talking about. I'm talking about the way each individual player will be affected when it comes time to negotiate his own contract, and its undisputed that their will be less teams able to spend money which means less prospective employers.

Would have been nice if you figured that out before you claimed I didn't know what I was talking about.
When players have to give money back, does Kobe give the same amount that a minimum guy? Or when the players receive the escrow money, does Kobe receive the same amount that a minimum guy gets? Doesn't make sense, but if this is what happens your point could have some validity, if we forget that in the owners proposal minimum payroll was raised to 90% of the cap, and if mid level guys would have less options probably would have been because they were already signed to a better contract.

[rmt]

Isn't it better to get some money than no money at all? What exactly will the players gain - the season will go down the drain and the lawyers will rake in the money.

Welcome to the real world where the rest of us has to cut back in this economy.

[RRR3]

Okay, I admit I'm pretty damn ignorant on this subject, but can someone please explain to me why the **** the players didn't accept the deal? Wasn't this the best they were going to get? What exactly do they gain by refusing it? What do they think this will get them? Why the hell would they rather take nothing over something (even if the deal is unfair towards them, it's better than zilch right?)

[tomtucker]

So the stereotype of NBA players as low IQ primadonnas and overpayed dikks are true ?

[The Iron Fist]

:wtf:

only on ish can people start an argument over nothing.:facepalm

I guess China/Australia dont exist now.

I guess you never said that NHL players don't have more options than NBA players.



Even when you've been told multiple times of various leagues,

you still keep putting your foot in your mouth.

[PP34Deuce]

I think people forget that Stern grad from Law school at Columbia, high honors. This guy knows how to twist stories so well.

Billy Hunter is dumb....When he talks, he's not winning at all. I hate David Stern,but the guy is the master at manipulation and posturing. He has succeeded because so many of you are turning on the players.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

NBA players routinely make by FAR the biggest average salary.

NBA - 5.15 mil
MLB - 3.31
NHL - 2.4
NFL - 1.9

I hate the fact that the players' salaries aren't enough, that they feel as though they're obligated to the revenue produced from jerseys, etc. I feel that the only players who should make money off of that are the players whose jerseys sell. If Lebron and Kobe's jerseys are the most popular, THEY SHOULD SEE THE MONEY FROM THOSE CASH SALES, not some guy like Matt Bonner - too many teams arr losing money. I'm now with the owners on this 1 guys - maybe there should be a royalty system set up where players make a % of the sales of items with their names on them, but I don't think EVERY PLAYER should get a piece of this.

*sigh*..This never would of happened in the 80's...

[chips93]

I think people forget that Stern grad from Law school at Columbia, high honors. This guy knows how to twist stories so well.

Billy Hunter is dumb....When he talks, he's not winning at all. I hate David Stern,but the guy is the master at manipulation and posturing. He has succeeded because so many of you are turning on the players.

people talk a lot about public perception, and the pr war, etc., but how does this actually play a factor in the negotiations? i dont see how what we, the fans, think has any impact on the negotiations.

[Bernie Nips]

people talk a lot about public perception, and the pr war, etc., but how does this actually play a factor in the negotiations? i dont see how what we, the fans, think has any impact on the negotiations.

You don't think there's any pressure from the public on the players to accept a deal they're not happy with?

[PowerGlove]

I guess you never said that NHL players don't have more options than NBA players.



Even when you've been told multiple times of various leagues,

you still keep putting your foot in your mouth.
NBA players do have more options, how hard is that to understand. Im well aware that NHL players have options in europe but basketball leagues are on every continent and basketball as a whole is more popular worldwide than Hockey. Basketball is getting HUGE in China, another place where players can make a good sum of money and sell massive amounts of merchandise.

Basketball players have more options, that isnt even debatable.

I must be getting trolled here.:facepalm


How's that nothing? I simply informed you that NHL players had the same Euroleague possibility. Heck Hockey\Europe outside of China could be bigger in area's like Russia, Finland, Germany etc. That was it.

Oh I see what you mean. Weather or not there's 12 basketball leagues oversea's or 7 NHL leagues I don't know or care. Point is they both have the same alternatives to go oversea's to multiple different leagues.
I know that hockey players have overseas options as well, just not as many. Again I dont know how this even got started, I was perfectly right the first time.

[bagelred]

I think people forget that Stern grad from Law school at Columbia, high honors. This guy knows how to twist stories so well.

Billy Hunter is dumb....When he talks, he's not winning at all. I hate David Stern,but the guy is the master at manipulation and posturing. He has succeeded because so many of you are turning on the players.

Exactly. Stern is a master of PR and Hunter is awful at it. I honestly believe I can do a better PR stint than Hunter....terrible. The owners are completely to blame and the public, including posters in this thread, are pissed at the players. LOL. Stern is the master.

[blacknapalm]

Exactly. Stern is a master of PR and Hunter is awful at it. I honestly believe I can do a better PR stint than Hunter....terrible. The owners are completely to blame and the public, including posters in this thread, are pissed at the players. LOL. Stern is the master.

stern's had this on spin cycle since day one. people are even applauding the softball session that was 'twitter view'

[coin24]

Have the union even said what part of the offer is such a slap in the face to them?
It surely can't just be because it's not the same as the old deal, or that shit about the MLE..:facepalm
I havnt heard a decent argument or reasonable explanation at all.

Stern is great at what he does, but the players had a chance here to end this and honestly it wasn't that bad an offer IMO..:confusedshrug:

[L.Kizzle]

They require 1700 players to generate 9 billion revenue. NBA has 450 players, and does 4.4 billion revenue. So three times as many players, and only double the revenue. Do the math.
16 games compared to 82 though. Wouldn't that make a difference?

[ConanRulesNBC]

Officially? You are naive. Probably the type that listens to sports radio and takes what those clowns say seriously.

If there's no season at all at this point it's the players fault. They're being offered a deal and they're refusing to agree to it which is going to cost the entire season now. They're idiots. I can't believe anyone is sticking up for the players at this point.

[blacknapalm]

If there's no season at all at this point it's the players fault. They're being offered a deal and they're refusing to agree to it which is going to cost the entire season now. They're idiots. I can't believe anyone is sticking up for the players at this point.

the owners proposed a plan they knew had a good chance of being rejected. now when it is, they act surprised and the deal gets worse. how is that negotiating in 'good faith'? 'take this bad deal now or we'll be forced to make it worse'. does that sound like a proposal to you? read 'art of war'. in negotiations, making threats and backing your opponent into a corner is a way to make it all blow up. that's how emotion gets involved and takes over.

stern is the one who said: “There comes a time when you have to be through negotiating, and we are.” now stern is threatening to void all contracts and the players will just call his bluff again. players gave up 7% BRI and eased up on system issues but it wasn't enough for the owners. they wanted them to bend even more on system issues.

this is the second lockout on stern's watch. hunter was a sitting duck, too.

the owners want a proposal that will cover bad business decisions. why should the players have to make up entirely for that?

once this deal gets done, watch how many owners will sell their teams in the next 2-5 years at huge profits because of this new CBA. watch which owners will ask taxpayers to help build new arenas.

[WoGiTaLiA1]

If there's no season at all at this point it's the players fault. They're being offered a deal and they're refusing to agree to it which is going to cost the entire season now. They're idiots. I can't believe anyone is sticking up for the players at this point.

I can't believe that anyone was ever on the players side in this battle of greed, basically the players are looking out for the players, the owners side at least does have some "good for the game" elements to it.

The only reason to support the players is the ridiculous "the owners are richer so I support the players" attitude that is helping to destroy the US as a country.

[NuggetsFan]

I know that hockey players have overseas options as well, just not as many. Again I dont know how this even got started, I was perfectly right the first time.

Bro just give it up. Hockey players have the same alternative options. You said they didn't. So your saying because NBA players may have 20 different options compared to the NHL's 16 that your still right?


I dont remember NHL players ever having this many alternative places to play.

First off you don't remember because you probably didn't watch hockey. Secondly what's so crazy that I'm saying? NHL has just many alternative in the same sense. Literally? I wouldn't know. Your grasping at straws.

NBA players can go play in the euroleague. There's like what? Probably 5+ divisions\area's. You have China. You have street games. NHL players have the same type of situation. KHL, DEL, Sweedish Elite. When Ty Lawson wanted an alternative option? He went oversea's. If Matt Duchene wanted another option during a lockout he could do the EXACT same thing.

F*ck hockey's probably more popular oversea's than it is in 50%+ of American markets :oldlol:

I'm not really even sure what the argument is at this point. NHL\NBA players both have alternative options if there league was on lockout. Same exact concept .. play in another professional league and both sports have 5+ of them in different area's.

[Skywalker]

I can't believe that anyone was ever on the players side in this battle of greed, basically the players are looking out for the players, the owners side at least does have some "good for the game" elements to it.

The only reason to support the players is the ridiculous "the owners are richer so I support the players" attitude that is helping to destroy the US as a country.

damn I thought you turned into a fossil and were in the ISH museum

[Sarcastic]

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/374702_2095865445232_1503220699_31631861_869622847 _n.jpg

[WoGiTaLiA1]

damn I thought you turned into a fossil and were in the ISH museum

Haha, it could be argued I am and I'm just dragging out the same crap I said the last few times the CBA was up for negotiation!

Reality is I just haven't had as much time with the whole growing up and working thing and this place is kind of dead during Australian hours :)

[HurricaneKid]

I can't believe how many people here are devouring the crap you have been fed by Stern and the owners. Imagine you show up for work one day and there are chains around the door and the person you work for announces there are going to be some changes. They have been paying you too much and they would like to cut everyones wages 15%.

You say ok. Times are tough after all.

Then they say that's not enough. If for any reason in the first 5 years you aren't doing as well as they would like or you get out of line they can send you to an apprenticeship program and not pay you.

Ummm wait...

There is more. We don't trust ourselves to evaluate talent financially accurately so all deals are going to be for a shorter term and for less money...

That doesn't sound fair...

And that BRI we agreed to, well we are going to rig the escrow process so that no matter what we win.

That doesn't seem right at all...



One of these sides is ridiculous. The players were prevented from working, offered to give a BILLION dollars back to the owners during the life of this CBA and were sued in federal court for not negotiating in good faith today. Its comical.

We have a serious problem in our country today in that workers aren't compensated for the profits they generate, but rather paid as little as ownership can squeeze them for.

Let's look at it this way. Can the owners exist without the players? NO. Ownership of the 32 teams is worth roughly 12,000,000,000. If the players simply bypassed the owners and created their own league, allowed fans in for free for the first 7 years and didn't make a penny, but had a comparable fan base (and with ~ free tickets how could they not??) at the end of this run they would make as much in equity of their new clubs as they would have in the prior CBA. And they would make more going forward.

Someone is being greedy here and its not the players.

[ZenMaster]

I can't believe how many people here are devouring the crap you have been fed by Stern and the owners. Imagine you show up for work one day and there are chains around the door and the person you work for announces there are going to be some changes. They have been paying you too much and they would like to cut everyones wages 15%.

You say ok. Times are tough after all.

Then they say that's not enough. If for any reason in the first 5 years you aren't doing as well as they would like or you get out of line they can send you to an apprenticeship program and not pay you.

Ummm wait...

There is more. We don't trust ourselves to evaluate talent financially accurately so all deals are going to be for a shorter term and for less money...

That doesn't sound fair...

And that BRI we agreed to, well we are going to rig the escrow process so that no matter what we win.

That doesn't seem right at all...



One of these sides is ridiculous. The players were prevented from working, offered to give a BILLION dollars back to the owners during the life of this CBA and were sued in federal court for not negotiating in good faith today. Its comical.

.

The bolded is completely false.

And all these things beats getting fired no? Which is what plenty of other companies has had to do. No teams have been contracted and there's even the D-League now which means more work places for American basketball players.

[WoGiTaLiA1]

You say ok. Times are tough after all.

You mean like everyone living in the real world already deals with?

If my current employer says I'm getting a paycut or I'm not getting paid, then I'm taking the paycut and then I'll look elsewhere for someone willing to pay me what I think I'm worth, so go to Europe if they will pay more(hint they won't because it makes no sense financially).


Then they say that's not enough. If for any reason in the first 5 years you aren't doing as well as they would like or you get out of line they can send you to an apprenticeship program and not pay you.

a) No one in the real world gets a 5 year contract.

b) Those who do sign 1 or 2 year contracts have pretty stringent performance reviews at least every 6 months or they are out of a job.

c) Ignoring a and b, if I signed a 5 year contract and then I show up and do nothing for the next 5 years do you think my employer is going to think it's a fair deal and not going to make sure that it doesn't happen again?



Ummm wait...

There is more. We don't trust ourselves to evaluate talent financially accurately so all deals are going to be for a shorter term and for less money...

So again, like the real world, where you know if they make a bad hiring they have a probation period and fire you, or if you can bluff your way through said probation and then turn to shit, they fire you and pay you a severance package?

Of course in the real world though, when they do fire you they can replace you with someone more competent as opposed to you sitting there eating up their payroll whilst your work for their competitors.


That doesn't sound fair...

Really? So the other 99.9% of the world that operates under those conditions isn't getting it fair? So the NBA players are literally the only people in the world who are currently working under a fair compensation system?


And that BRI we agreed to, well we are going to rig the escrow process so that no matter what we win.

That doesn't seem right at all...


What seems so unfair about the employees being guaranteed a share of the revenue, you know that in reality when a business grows the wages are not forever linked to it? The NBA is one of the only businesses in the world where the employee compensation goes up proportionately to revenue growth, so those taking the actual financial risks can never get more than 43% of the revenue that their investment has created and that would assume that no other costs existed.


One of these sides is ridiculous. The players were prevented from working, offered to give a BILLION dollars back to the owners during the life of this CBA and were sued in federal court for not negotiating in good faith today. Its comical.

Yep, one side sure is ridiculous compared to the rest of the world. The players who basically are immune to being fired are now being told when their collective contract is up for renewal that they are to take a paycut. You know what happens in the real world when the owners stop making money? It isn't a lockout, it's called mass firings. The players currently have a CBA that has made them immune to contract termination without complete restitution and the termination doesn't even contain non-compete clauses.

Honestly, just think about how good the players have had it for the last 12 years, think about what the economy has done in that time, do you know anyone who has lost their job? NBA players have had a system where they couldn't lose their job and if they did they still got their full contract paid out, whilst being able to do whatever they wanted after being terminated, like playing for someone else.

[HurricaneKid]

You mean like everyone living in the real world already deals with?

If my current employer says I'm getting a paycut or I'm not getting paid, then I'm taking the paycut and then I'll look elsewhere for someone willing to pay me what I think I'm worth, so go to Europe if they will pay more(hint they won't because it makes no sense financially).



a) No one in the real world gets a 5 year contract.

b) Those who do sign 1 or 2 year contracts have pretty stringent performance reviews at least every 6 months or they are out of a job.

c) Ignoring a and b, if I signed a 5 year contract and then I show up and do nothing for the next 5 years do you think my employer is going to think it's a fair deal and not going to make sure that it doesn't happen again?




So again, like the real world, where you know if they make a bad hiring they have a probation period and fire you, or if you can bluff your way through said probation and then turn to shit, they fire you and pay you a severance package?

Of course in the real world though, when they do fire you they can replace you with someone more competent as opposed to you sitting there eating up their payroll whilst your work for their competitors.



Really? So the other 99.9% of the world that operates under those conditions isn't getting it fair? So the NBA players are literally the only people in the world who are currently working under a fair compensation system?



What seems so unfair about the employees being guaranteed a share of the revenue, you know that in reality when a business grows the wages are not forever linked to it? The NBA is one of the only businesses in the world where the employee compensation goes up proportionately to revenue growth, so those taking the actual financial risks can never get more than 43% of the revenue that their investment has created and that would assume that no other costs existed.



Yep, one side sure is ridiculous compared to the rest of the world. The players who basically are immune to being fired are now being told when their collective contract is up for renewal that they are to take a paycut. You know what happens in the real world when the owners stop making money? It isn't a lockout, it's called mass firings. The players currently have a CBA that has made them immune to contract termination without complete restitution and the termination doesn't even contain non-compete clauses.

Honestly, just think about how good the players have had it for the last 12 years, think about what the economy has done in that time, do you know anyone who has lost their job? NBA players have had a system where they couldn't lose their job and if they did they still got their full contract paid out, whilst being able to do whatever they wanted after being terminated, like playing for someone else.

What "financial risk?" Paul Allen, Cuban et al are among the most respected businessmen in the country. Yet when the GSW go up for sale people fell over themselves to pay 56% more than Forbes says the company is worth. Why? Because they are cash cows.

The economy is some crap tale the billionaires point to to get the yokels on their side. More people watched the last NBA game than amy other in the last 8 years and they are getting a new deal in a few minutes. You seriously think revenues are going to go down in the next few years?

If you are all for open markets you would be all for removing ALL the antitrust exemptions the owners get. But my guess is that you wouldn't support that. In business acquisitions cost money. Saying the players shouldn't get guaranteed deals when their skills have people lining up to give them just that is ridiculous. You are blindly ignoring so many basic foundations of markets I barely know how to address you.

[ZenMaster]

What "financial risk?" Paul Allen, Cuban et al are among the most respected businessmen in the country. Yet when the GSW go up for sale people fell over themselves to pay 56% more than Forbes says the company is worth. Why? Because they are cash cows.

The economy is some crap tale the billionaires point to to get the yokels on their side. More people watched the last NBA game than amy other in the last 8 years and they are getting a new deal in a few minutes. You seriously think revenues are going to go down in the next few years?

If you are all for open markets you would be all for removing ALL the antitrust exemptions the owners get. But my guess is that you wouldn't support that. In business acquisitions cost money. Saying the players shouldn't get guaranteed deals when their skills have people lining up to give them just that is ridiculous. You are blindly ignoring so many basic foundations of markets I barely know how to address you.

But what happens when the Bobcats go up for sale?

[HurricaneKid]

The bolded is completely false.

And all these things beats getting fired no? Which is what plenty of other companies has had to do. No teams have been contracted and there's even the D-League now which means more work places for American basketball players.

So anyone who has a monopoly should be able to dictate terms?

I was obviously interjecting another option. If the owners aren't willing to take the BILLION DOLLARS the players just gave them back without demanding other significant givebacks, maybe we shouldn't trust them to operate our pastime. They do not add 12,000,000,000.00 in value to the game. Yet that's what they take from it.

[HurricaneKid]

The bolded is completely false.


You think just because something didn't make ut into the most recent offer it wasn't on the table at all?

How about increasing the luxury tax to an absurdly punitive level? Is that reasonable? There are teams in recent history that would have a 300,000,000 tax levied against them. Talk about limiting salaries ans player movement
..

[WoGiTaLiA1]

What "financial risk?" Paul Allen, Cuban et al are among the most respected businessmen in the country. Yet when the GSW go up for sale people fell over themselves to pay 56% more than Forbes says the company is worth. Why? Because they are cash cows.

Do you honestly believe that paying $500m to buy something isn't a financial risk? Teams lost money this year and there are flat out no guarantees in business. Buying and operating an NBA team is a financial risk, especially in the smaller markets or if you actually want to have success on the court.


The economy is some crap tale the billionaires point to to get the yokels on their side. More people watched the last NBA game than amy other in the last 8 years and they are getting a new deal in a few minutes. You seriously think revenues are going to go down in the next few years?

And player costs went up just as much, just because a business is growing doesn't mean it is operating efficiently or under the best terms for that business. There were teams that lost money, there are stadiums that are half empty and the entire model on which the NBA is built is changing. To continue to operate under what is an ancient CBA blindly without reviewing it and fighting to make it better is just stupid business.

Times have changed from when that contract was entered. If you had signed a contract to earn a 2.5% payrise for the next 10 years and inflation was 15% p.a. over that period would you just resign at the end of the 10 years or would you be fighting and doing everything within your power to make up that difference?


If you are all for open markets you would be all for removing ALL the antitrust exemptions the owners get. But my guess is that you wouldn't support that. In business acquisitions cost money. Saying the players shouldn't get guaranteed deals when their skills have people lining up to give them just that is ridiculous. You are blindly ignoring so many basic foundations of markets I barely know how to address you.

I'm all about the league being as good as possible, so of course I support the anti-trust exemptions which the players have to agree to as well. Hey if we want the NBA to be like the EPL where 5 teams have a chance to win and the others are just doing everything in their power not to fold then go for it and scrap them but that just sounds ridiculous to me.

I'm not about the players that deserve to be paid being paid. I'm about a system more reflective of reality where people are paid for how they perform and if they don't perform they are replaced. Really are you telling me the NBA wouldn't be better if everyone was earning their paycheque? The NBA players are going to get compensated for their skills, I'd prefer they continue to earn their contract.

I'm also a big fan of teams at least having a chance to compete.

You know what is actually funny is that I dare say if you gave the owners non-guaranteed contracts and a hard cap the players could get 55% of the BRI because it would be a system that would be conducive to growth and make the NBA as a whole more profitable. It is clear that it is system issues, not money, that are the owners big sticking point.

[ZenMaster]

So anyone who has a monopoly should be able to dictate terms?

I was obviously interjecting another option. If the owners aren't willing to take the BILLION DOLLARS the players just gave them back without demanding other significant givebacks, maybe we shouldn't trust them to operate our pastime. They do not add 12,000,000,000.00 in value to the game. Yet that's what they take from it.

It's a new CBA and the old one has no bearing on it, each CBA reflects on the economical situation of the league. The last CBA was so good that the players agreed to letting teams having the possibilty of locking it's players out at the end of it.

Monopoly or not, business owners dictate the terms of their employees in an way so that the owners themselves also make money.

[ZenMaster]

You think just because something didn't make ut into the most recent offer it wasn't on the table at all?

How about increasing the luxury tax to an absurdly punitive level? Is that reasonable? There are teams in recent history that would have a 300,000,000 tax levied against them. Talk about limiting salaries ans player movement
..

The latest offer is the only one relevant no? It has also been denied to have ever been on the table by the NBA if I remember right.

[HurricaneKid]

First off, this notion that all teams are losing money is ridiculous. The way it works is that you can legally amortize the team purchase over any period you want. So, SHOCKER, right as the CBA comes up they all amortize a large chunk of their investment and voila we have a loss. That they won't show books all but proves this. Again, the GSW sold for 56% more than they were valued at. Do you really think someone is going to invest 450m on an unprofitable asset?

I have some experience in this arena. You show me large expenditures and I'll show you a salivating accountant. You show me all that in a cash heavy environment and I'll show you people making piles of money pleading poverty.

[ZenMaster]

First off, this notion that all teams are losing money is ridiculous. The way it works is that you can legally amortize the team purchase over any period you want. So, SHOCKER, right as the CBA comes up they all amortize a large chunk of their investment and voila we have a loss. That they won't show books all but proves this. Again, the GSW sold for 56% more than they were valued at. Do you really think someone is going to invest 450m on an unprofitable asset?

I have some experience in this arena. You show me large expenditures and I'll show you a salivating accountant. You show me all that in a cash heavy environment and I'll show you people making piles of money pleading poverty.

But if they're lying while claiming loses, would they really risk an entire season and the drop in revenue it will lead to? Is it profitable for them in the long run? Because fan interest will take a hit, a big hit.

Also in general everything is unfair about the NBA, right from the start they tell kids where to live and work, then later when they get out of these obligations they might still not be able to work in the city of which they like because it's not an open market.

It's how the NBA works, and the compensation is potentially millions and millions of dollars. If they're not happy with it they are free to play in any of the other leagues in the world, for a lesser compensation though.

[WoGiTaLiA1]

First off, this notion that all teams are losing money is ridiculous. The way it works is that you can legally amortize the team purchase over any period you want. So, SHOCKER, right as the CBA comes up they all amortize a large chunk of their investment and voila we have a loss. That they won't show books all but proves this. Again, the GSW sold for 56% more than they were valued at. Do you really think someone is going to invest 450m on an unprofitable asset?

Where has anyone said that all the teams are losing money? Lots of the teams are losing money. The league bought the Hornets for a reason. Jordan bought the Bobcats for less than they originally cost for a reason. The Warriors cost half what they would have 5 years ago for a reason.

NBA teams are an investment, they are neither good nor bad until they turn one way or the other. Several teams are losing money, genuinely losing money not just creative accounting losing money. The player union has never contested that, sure they contested that the numbers were being accentuated by some creative accounting but they most definitely haven't contested that there aren't teams losing money, that is a big reason they have been willing to give as much as they have.

The owners want to fix a system that is somewhere between broken and less than ideal for those taking the risks, you just have to look at McCourt and the Dodgers to see that the ownership is a massive risk or the Maloofs with Sacramento even in the NBA. There are massive risks with any asset that costs that sort of money. NBA teams are no longer rich man hobbies, they are legitimate businesses and as such the owners are fighting to create an environment where those businesses can generate sufficient returns.

Of course this is all arguing over whether a millionaire or a billionaire should get the money, the real question is how fans end siding with the players. The players aren't fighting to make the NBA a better product in any way, if the players won this negotiation the NBA would be no better off. I would just love to know how any reasonable fan sides with the players here, there is no contention that the owners are also being greedy and going for as much as possible but the more the owners win, the more the fans win in this battle.

Honestly, outside of the "fighting the man" ideal how/why are people siding with the players here? I'd love a reason because I just don't see it.

[HurricaneKid]

Do you honestly believe that paying $500m to buy something isn't a financial risk? Teams lost money this year and there are flat out no guarantees in business. Buying and operating an NBA team is a financial risk, especially in the smaller markets or if you actually want to have success on the court.



And player costs went up just as much, just because a business is growing doesn't mean it is operating efficiently or under the best terms for that business. There were teams that lost money, there are stadiums that are half empty and the entire model on which the NBA is built is changing. To continue to operate under what is an ancient CBA blindly without reviewing it and fighting to make it better is just stupid business.

Times have changed from when that contract was entered. If you had signed a contract to earn a 2.5% payrise for the next 10 years and inflation was 15% p.a. over that period would you just resign at the end of the 10 years or would you be fighting and doing everything within your power to make up that difference?



I'm all about the league being as good as possible, so of course I support the anti-trust exemptions which the players have to agree to as well. Hey if we want the NBA to be like the EPL where 5 teams have a chance to win and the others are just doing everything in their power not to fold then go for it and scrap them but that just sounds ridiculous to me.

I'm not about the players that deserve to be paid being paid. I'm about a system more reflective of reality where people are paid for how they perform and if they don't perform they are replaced. Really are you telling me the NBA wouldn't be better if everyone was earning their paycheque? The NBA players are going to get compensated for their skills, I'd prefer they continue to earn their contract.

I'm also a big fan of teams at least having a chance to compete.

You know what is actually funny is that I dare say if you gave the owners non-guaranteed contracts and a hard cap the players could get 55% of the BRI because it would be a system that would be conducive to growth and make the NBA as a whole more profitable. It is clear that it is system issues, not money, that are the owners big sticking point.

Who is the worst owner in sports? Probably D Sterling right? I mean he has had just a handful of playoff teams in 30 years. It almost appears he is trying to lose. If he were in any other industry he would be bankrupt. Instead, his 12.5m investment is probably worth ~500m today. Add in the profits he has taken- let's call it another 250m over 30 years, probably VERY conservative, you get a 6000% return on investment. I know of one sports owner in history of the NFL, NBA, or NBA who didn't come out WAY ahead.

I would love a system that rewards play financially efficiently. But the owners are literally telling the players they can't do it and that the players can't negotiate deals with them. Its a crazy position to take if you think about it.

And its ridiculous to suggest that the owners would give 700m to get a more accurate distribution of income for the players. At the end of the day they should rely on their GMs for that at no cost.

[Fatal9]

this sums up the lockout...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxyYP_bS_6s

[HurricaneKid]

Where has anyone said that all the teams are losing money? Lots of the teams are losing money. The league bought the Hornets for a reason. Jordan bought the Bobcats for less than they originally cost for a reason. The Warriors cost half what they would have 5 years ago for a reason.

NBA teams are an investment, they are neither good nor bad until they turn one way or the other. Several teams are losing money, genuinely losing money not just creative accounting losing money. The player union has never contested that, sure they contested that the numbers were being accentuated by some creative accounting but they most definitely haven't contested that there aren't teams losing money, that is a big reason they have been willing to give as much as they have.

The owners want to fix a system that is somewhere between broken and less than ideal for those taking the risks, you just have to look at McCourt and the Dodgers to see that the ownership is a massive risk or the Maloofs with Sacramento even in the NBA. There are massive risks with any asset that costs that sort of money. NBA teams are no longer rich man hobbies, they are legitimate businesses and as such the owners are fighting to create an environment where those businesses can generate sufficient returns.

Of course this is all arguing over whether a millionaire or a billionaire should get the money, the real question is how fans end siding with the players. The players aren't fighting to make the NBA a better product in any way, if the players won this negotiation the NBA would be no better off. I would just love to know how any reasonable fan sides with the players here, there is no contention that the owners are also being greedy and going for as much as possible but the more the owners win, the more the fans win in this battle.

Honestly, outside of the "fighting the man" ideal how/why are people siding with the players here? I'd love a reason because I just don't see it.

You think the owners are looking out for the best interests of the game? Seriously?? Everyone is looking out for their own best interests. The biggest problem with the NBA is the terrible revenue sharing but the players have NOTHING TO DO WITH. Fix that and the small market teams are fine. Its not even a player comp issue.

Funny you should bring up McCourt. He bought the Dodgers for 430m and will sell them for 1b+. He also made 121m over the past 7 years and paid zero taxes.

[WoGiTaLiA1]

Who is the worst owner in sports? Probably D Sterling right? I mean he has had just a handful of playoff teams in 30 years. It almost appears he is trying to lose. If he were in any other industry he would be bankrupt. Instead, his 12.5m investment is probably worth ~500m today. Add in the profits he has taken- let's call it another 250m over 30 years, probably VERY conservative, you get a 6000% return on investment. I know of one sports owner in history of the NFL, NBA, or NBA who didn't come out WAY ahead.

There are plenty of owners who have lost or made nothing.

My friends parents paid $1,500 for their house back in 1970 and it's now worth $20m. Should they not be allowed to sell it for what it is worth or rent it to whom they choose?

You seem to be opposed to the owners making money like it is against the rules? Would you rather a system where the owners can make their money AND try and win a title or a system where they either make money OR try and win?


I would love a system that rewards play financially efficiently. But the owners are literally telling the players they can't do it and that the players can't negotiate deals with them. Its a crazy position to take if you think about it.

I don't really agree with how the owners are going about it. Getting rid of guaranteed contracts and putting in a hard cap would be far better than this ridiculous luxury tax system they want to try and create balance through but that isn't going to happen unfortunately.

Guaranteed contracts are absolutely the biggest thing wrong with the NBA, it hurts both the owners and the majority of the players. If guys like Arenas, Lewis, Jones, Curry and countless others weren't being paid money they 100% don't deserve or earn then that money would be there for the players who do deserve it. Realistically what the owners want is closer to that happening.

Realistically you are worth what people are willing to pay. I could be the worlds greatest burger flipper but that isn't going to make me rich because no one can run a business that pays me millions to flip burgers. The owners are giving a pretty clear indication that the majority can't run a business under the current CBA, there is a reason they pretty much haven't budged.

[2LeTTeRS]

Where has anyone said that all the teams are losing money? Lots of the teams are losing money. The league bought the Hornets for a reason. Jordan bought the Bobcats for less than they originally cost for a reason. The Warriors cost half what they would have 5 years ago for a reason.

NBA teams are an investment, they are neither good nor bad until they turn one way or the other. Several teams are losing money, genuinely losing money not just creative accounting losing money. The player union has never contested that, sure they contested that the numbers were being accentuated by some creative accounting but they most definitely haven't contested that there aren't teams losing money, that is a big reason they have been willing to give as much as they have.

The owners want to fix a system that is somewhere between broken and less than ideal for those taking the risks, you just have to look at McCourt and the Dodgers to see that the ownership is a massive risk or the Maloofs with Sacramento even in the NBA. There are massive risks with any asset that costs that sort of money. NBA teams are no longer rich man hobbies, they are legitimate businesses and as such the owners are fighting to create an environment where those businesses can generate sufficient returns.

Of course this is all arguing over whether a millionaire or a billionaire should get the money, the real question is how fans end siding with the players. The players aren't fighting to make the NBA a better product in any way, if the players won this negotiation the NBA would be no better off. I would just love to know how any reasonable fan sides with the players here, there is no contention that the owners are also being greedy and going for as much as possible but the more the owners win, the more the fans win in this battle.

Honestly, outside of the "fighting the man" ideal how/why are people siding with the players here? I'd love a reason because I just don't see it.

You want to know how a fan can side with the players, easy we like the system as currently constructed. I agree that right now the financial split is slanted toward the players, but I disagree that the Owners are trying to fix the league.

I believe that evening playing field as it pertains to money spent will not make a more entertaining league. It has been proved time and time again that spending more money does not equal getting more wins, if that money is not spent wisely, but the bad decision-making aspect has not been addressed. Instead if their changes are implemented I forecast a league with no true great teams, as teams struggle to fit enough good players into a harder salary cap.

At the end of the day it boils down to your view on parity. While the Owners and many fans believe parity is a good thing, ratings trends show the interest in the league are at its highest when the teams in big markets or with big stars are successful. I just don't get why the Owners seem intent to ignore this data.

[MiseryCityTexas]

lmao @ david stern giving himself the championship.

[InspiredLebowski]

It's not about the big TNT/ESPN/ABC deals. Those're always going to be monstrous. It's about the local broadcast rights. When you have the Lakers signing multi-billion dollar local deals and the Pacers signing deals for $7 mil a year then you've got legitimate haves and have-nots.

The "competitive balance" stuff is a charade. Maybe a tiny bit of the economics they're haggling over have to do with actually making every team "able to win," but they can already do that. The problem is the way teams have to go about that, a franchise in a smaller market shouldn't have to look forward to a 20 win season because it'll get you a #1 pick and maybe, hopefully, eventually lead to wins down the road.

Anyway, I digress. There're real problems with the way teams in certain markets need to approach their plans of franchise building. The actual problem, and what the owners want to try and fix (IMO), is the competitive balance of profit margins, not W/L. If the only way to turn a profit, if not just break even, is to sell your franchise (assuming you've owned them long enough to get a good ROI) then that's pretty obviously a problem.

And if your "solution" is contraction, consider yourself lucky.

[PowerGlove]

Bro just give it up. Hockey players have the same alternative options. You said they didn't. So your saying because NBA players may have 20 different options compared to the NHL's 16 that your still right?

So 20 is the same as 16 now? You act like I exaggerated the difference, I simply stated that there are more options. Which there are. How is this even being discussed???:wtf:


First off you don't remember because you probably didn't watch hockey. Secondly what's so crazy that I'm saying? NHL has just many alternative in the same sense. Literally? I wouldn't know. Your grasping at straws.
I dont watch hockey because what?? What gives you that impression? I watch every single sport, I talked about the cup finals on here multiple times. Try again.:rolleyes:

I'm grasping at straws but you agree with me???? I dont see how I'm grasping at straws when IM RIGHT. They have more options.


NBA players can go play in the euroleague. There's like what? Probably 5+ divisions\area's. You have China. You have street games. NHL players have the same type of situation. KHL, DEL, Sweedish Elite. When Ty Lawson wanted an alternative option? He went oversea's. If Matt Duchene wanted another option during a lockout he could do the EXACT same thing.
Basketball is a more global game. Its a way more individual game and players could go many places and make money without signing to a team. They were planning an AND1 like world tour which garners interest where ever they go. Where am I wrong?



I'm not really even sure what the argument is at this point. .

*sigh*

Yeah....this is the way I've felt the whole time. I said something that was 100% factual. You made an argument over nothing. Basketball players have more options. End of story. Never did I say that hockey players have no options.:confusedshrug:

[themurph]

There's a lot of ignorance going on in this thread....

SMH....

[themurph]

[QUOTE=blacknapalm]the owners proposed a plan they knew had a good chance of being rejected. now when it is, they act surprised and the deal gets worse. how is that negotiating in 'good faith'? 'take this bad deal now or we'll be forced to make it worse'. does that sound like a proposal to you? read 'art of war'. in negotiations, making threats and backing your opponent into a corner is a way to make it all blow up. that's how emotion gets involved and takes over.

stern is the one who said:

[HurricaneKid]

Realistically you are worth what people are willing to pay. I could be the worlds greatest burger flipper but that isn't going to make me rich because no one can run a business that pays me millions to flip burgers. The owners are giving a pretty clear indication that the majority can't run a business under the current CBA, there is a reason they pretty much haven't budged.

The world's best burger flipper can go to any number of employers. If the owner of a new burger joint wants to make a splash and pay him millions more power to the burger flipper. He is free to test the market. The owners already had cost controls in place. Players can't make more than X, they can't ask for deals longer than X years. The burger flipper is free to negotiate any deal he can with a prospective employer. You are asking for the owners to be able to reap the rewards of a free market while denying the same thing to the players. The players accept this system as long as they are compensated appropriately. Giving back a Billion dollars and being told it wasn't good enough is where they have drawn the line.


There are plenty of owners who have lost or made nothing.

My friends parents paid $1,500 for their house back in 1970 and it's now worth $20m. Should they not be allowed to sell it for what it is worth or rent it to whom they choose?

You seem to be opposed to the owners making money like it is against the rules? Would you rather a system where the owners can make their money AND try and win a title or a system where they either make money OR try and win?


Not really. Its a very short list actually. Considering how transparently terribly some of them manage these enormous companies its far too short of a list.

Of course they should. They just shouldn't force the government to create legislation that would inherently bypass all market based solutions and necessitate the remarkable ROI these owners have enjoyed.

I'm not even anti-owner. I hope they are all successful. It makes for a lesser league having bad owners.

[Mrofir]

im very late but id like to add i was once 100% with the players but I wanted that deal to go through..

I think it is possible that the owners did include a few unacceptable clauses as a true hardball tactic, knowing that the public opinion was (temporarily?) swung in their direction.

Just to play devils adv

[Mrofir]

I can't believe how many people here are devouring the crap you have been fed by Stern and the owners. Imagine you show up for work one day and there are chains around the door and the person you work for announces there are going to be some changes. They have been paying you too much and they would like to cut everyones wages 15%.

You say ok. Times are tough after all.

Then they say that's not enough. If for any reason in the first 5 years you aren't doing as well as they would like or you get out of line they can send you to an apprenticeship program and not pay you.

Ummm wait...

There is more. We don't trust ourselves to evaluate talent financially accurately so all deals are going to be for a shorter term and for less money...

That doesn't sound fair...

And that BRI we agreed to, well we are going to rig the escrow process so that no matter what we win.

That doesn't seem right at all...



One of these sides is ridiculous. The players were prevented from working, offered to give a BILLION dollars back to the owners during the life of this CBA and were sued in federal court for not negotiating in good faith today. Its comical.

We have a serious problem in our country today in that workers aren't compensated for the profits they generate, but rather paid as little as ownership can squeeze them for.

Let's look at it this way. Can the owners exist without the players? NO. Ownership of the 32 teams is worth roughly 12,000,000,000. If the players simply bypassed the owners and created their own league, allowed fans in for free for the first 7 years and didn't make a penny, but had a comparable fan base (and with ~ free tickets how could they not??) at the end of this run they would make as much in equity of their new clubs as they would have in the prior CBA. And they would make more going forward.

Someone is being greedy here and its not the players.

the job in your analogy is a bad job. This job is an AWESOME super high paying job no matter how the hell you cut it. So your analogy fails.


The only players that are suffering at all are those who are in the midst of 2-year, $500,000 per year careers. They lose half of their lifetime earnings because of this. That's why the players should have voted.

[tomtucker]

this sums up the lockout...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxyYP_bS_6s

one of my favorites.........:cheers: ......RIP Heavy

.
in fact, most people think heavy died of a heart attack...not the case.....he got stuck in an elevator with KRS-ONE and that guy used up all the oxygen


.

[Godzuki]

I'm not going to say how great the owners are. But the players look like idiots by not taking this deal. I stayed out of taking sides until this point. But the players are being morons and are only going to hurt themselves even worse than they think they are right now. Now they're going to get a much worse deal offered to them and by that point they'll have to accept and look like a bunch of fools by not taking a better deal right now.

Freakin' idiots. This really makes me hate all pro sports and athletes. At least the NFL players were smart enough to make a deal and get a season in. I can't say the same about the NBA players.


don't forget their agents are a big factor, basically the player hardliners.....i can see them being the biggest factor on the players side in not accpeting

[HurricaneKid]

the job in your analogy is a bad job. This job is an AWESOME super high paying job no matter how the hell you cut it. So your analogy fails.


The only players that are suffering at all are those who are in the midst of 2-year, $500,000 per year careers. They lose half of their lifetime earnings because of this. That's why the players should have voted.

First off, it doesn't matter that all of us would play in the NBA for a shiny nickel. If they paid us each a shiny nickel to play in the league they would lose their league. I'm afraid no one would pay to watch us play. The players have a skill set just like James Andrews, Will Smith, Axl Rose, etc that has substantial value. Just like the aforementioned individuals players have the right to negotiate their compensation.

[Joey Zaza]

I think I lay blame at both sets of feet, but realy I'm more focussed in my blame on the NBA middle-class and the small market owners.

The NBA midle class are guys who better than most rookies and d-leaguers but Owners hate them because they underperform their contracts and are guaranteed a certain amount over time. They want to make sure they are not replaced by guys who are only slightly worse but much less expensive.

The small market owners bought their teams too expensive and now can't turn a profit. For them, blame goes everywhere except with them.

I beleive that if you put Dolan/Buss and James/Wade/random rookie or 12th man in a room, this deal gets done in 8 seconds. Unfortunately we've got classic small market guy (Holt) and classic middle class memeber (Fisher) in a room... or the two most volatile elements making all the decisions.

[HurricaneKid]

I think I lay blame at both sets of feet, but realy I'm more focussed in my blame on the NBA middle-class and the small market owners.

The NBA midle class are guys who better than most rookies and d-leaguers but Owners hate them because they underperform their contracts and are guaranteed a certain amount over time. They want to make sure they are not replaced by guys who are only slightly worse but much less expensive.

The small market owners bought their teams too expensive and now can't turn a profit. For them, blame goes everywhere except with them.

I beleive that if you put Dolan/Buss and James/Wade/random rookie or 12th man in a room, this deal gets done in 8 seconds. Unfortunately we've got classic small market guy (Holt) and classic middle class memeber (Fisher) in a room... or the two most volatile elements making all the decisions.

Its all about the TV money:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/7/14/2275307/nba-lockout-tv-deal-david-stern-national-basketball-association

The NBA is getting ~300M less (per year) than they should for their current national TV deal. The deal runs through 2016.


http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/2/15/1995219/lakers-tv-time-warner-deal-3-billion
The regional TV money is amazing. Time Warner just signed the Lakers for a 20 year $3BILLION regional TV deal. That is $150M/season. The Pacers get three shiny quarters.

[Sarcastic]

Its all about the TV money:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/7/14/2275307/nba-lockout-tv-deal-david-stern-national-basketball-association

The NBA is getting ~300M less (per year) than they should for their current national TV deal. The deal runs through 2016.


http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/2/15/1995219/lakers-tv-time-warner-deal-3-billion
The regional TV money is amazing. Time Warner just signed the Lakers for a 20 year $3BILLION regional TV deal. That is $150M/season. The Pacers get three shiny quarters.


Great post.

[blacknapalm]

Its all about the TV money:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/7/14/2275307/nba-lockout-tv-deal-david-stern-national-basketball-association

The NBA is getting ~300M less (per year) than they should for their current national TV deal. The deal runs through 2016.


http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/2/15/1995219/lakers-tv-time-warner-deal-3-billion
The regional TV money is amazing. Time Warner just signed the Lakers for a 20 year $3BILLION regional TV deal. That is $150M/season. The Pacers get three shiny quarters.

which is why revenue sharing should be more of a sticking point. also the strict luxury tax is just going to hamper any blockbuster trades. do the fans that are yammering about improving the game really want to see less trades and less impactful trades overall?

the union just isn't as splintered as it was in 99. stern overplayed his hand, thought they would fold and they called his bluff.

[D.J.]

I've been blaming the owners and still do. The players for years obviously demanded what they wanted. The owners gave them those huge contracts. No one forced them to. Are the players greedy? Without a doubt, but no one forced the owners to give them the huge contracts in the first place. And you can't expect the players to be like "I appreciate the $10 million offer, but I really only deserve $5 million". Both sides are at fault, but the vast majority of the blame goes to the owners.

[HurricaneKid]

which is why revenue sharing should be more of a sticking point. also the strict luxury tax is just going to hamper any blockbuster trades. do the fans that are yammering about improving the game really want to see less trades and less impactful trades overall?

the union just isn't as splintered as it was in 99. stern overplayed his hand, thought they would fold and they called his bluff.

Exactly. The problem is revenue sharing has NOTHING to do with players. This is an ownership battle. Wherever that money comes in the owners are obligated to pay out X% (currently proposed 50% down from 57%). So not only is it a ridiculous advantage for the Lakers to have an "extra" stream of $150M/yr but the Bucks, Pacers, etc have to PAY THEIR PLAYERS EXTRA because the Laker TV money is counted in BRI (the Laker deal alone raises the Pacer obligation to pay its players by ~2.85M ((150M x 57% to players / 30 teams). So while they get paid in chewing gum for their regional TV deals they have to pay extra because their competition is making so much more. Add in that all players want to get out of small markets and you have a REAL problem between big market and small market owners. But it makes no sense not to address this but make the players pay back all teams which is what ownership is doing. Because the Lakers, Bulls, Knicks, Bulls, etc are PRINTING money while the little guys are getting crushed. But none of those teams are going to volunteer giving their competition their money and its really hard to get it. So they go after the players where they know they can get a little more.

[Blue&Orange]

I can't believe how many people here are devouring the crap you have been fed by Stern and the owners.

Oh noes another delusional biased pro-player.

Imagine you show up for work one day and there are chains around the door and the person you work for announces there are going to be some changes. They have been paying you too much and they would like to cut everyones wages 15%.
People that aren't delusional and don't live in the lalala land like the pro-players don't have to imagine. How about you getting fired and going to the unemployment line? How about that? How about not only being chains around but all the equipment was removed to pay the debts, and the 10\20 years workers are left with nothing? How about that?
And you know the CBA expired right? Did you expect a season with no CBA in place is that it? Do you also let strangers in your house, and use yoru stuff for no reason? Great for you.

Then they say that's not enough. If for any reason in the first 5 years you aren't doing as well as they would like or you get out of line they can send you to an apprenticeship program and not pay you.

yeah dude, keep drinking the players kool-aid, use arguments that were already proved to be lies

There is more. We don't trust ourselves to evaluate talent financially accurately so all deals are going to be for a shorter term and for less money...
That doesn't sound fair...
It doesn't? well go find another job then.

And that BRI we agreed to, well we are going to rig the escrow process so that no matter what we win.

Off-course they are, because they union and the players are too retarded to notice.


One of these sides is ridiculous. The players were prevented from working, offered to give a BILLION dollars back to the owners during the life of this CBA and were sued in federal court for not negotiating in good faith today. Its comical.
Comical define well your opinion. And for someone to give back something they have to own it, so please explain me how did the players give a BILLION dollar back, when it's the owners money and there's no CBA in place, the 57% bri have EXPIRED!!

We have a serious problem in our country today in that workers aren't compensated for the profits they generate, but rather paid as little as ownership can squeeze them for.
50% is little? Did you just mentioned the real world and then said that 50% of the revenue is little? :facepalm :applause:

Let's look at it this way. Can the owners exist without the players? NO. Ownership of the 32 teams is worth roughly 12,000,000,000. If the players simply bypassed the owners and created their own league, allowed fans in for free for the first 7 years and didn't make a penny, but had a comparable fan base (and with ~ free tickets how could they not??) at the end of this run they would make as much in equity of their new clubs as they would have in the prior CBA. And they would make more going forward.

Your're so smart, i bet if you brought this idea to the union, they would do it in a heartbeat!! Because it isn't done already, because nobody else ever thought about it! You're a genius!

The players have a skill set just like James Andrews, Will Smith, Axl Rose, etc that has substantial value. Just like the aforementioned individuals players have the right to negotiate their compensation.
And the suits that came up with the money and allowed them to be what they are, made 10x more. Thanks for shooting yourself on the foot.

[SteelerKobeFan]

Can someone explain to me the arguement about the owner's not negotiating in "good faith"? Good faith does not mean a deal that is particularly favorable to the other side.

Have any of you bought a house knowing that the property had been on the market for 6+ months and the owners were carrying two mortgages and were desparate to sell?

If so, did you offer the owners something that would be in their best interest like say full asking price w/ no closing costs? Or did you offer an amount that would work best for you like 40K under asking and 4% closing costs?

If you chose the former, you are better than most people. Most people would choose the latter, as it would yeild a better deal for themselves. This is negotiation at its simplest. This is how business is conducted.

My other problem with this arguement is that the players did not seem to be operating in "good faith" themselves by your definition.

A federal mediator that they hand picked themselves mind you, made several suggestions to fix this issue and they were all rejected by the players. All they keep saying is NO to each and every suggestion that does not allow them to have free run of the place like they did previously.

[chips93]

You don't think there's any pressure from the public on the players to accept a deal they're not happy with?

i think it plays a pretty small part.

the players arent gonna take a bad deal just because the fans are angry. fans will forget pretty quickly once the season starts.

[SunsCaptain]

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w104/Samanthav_03/Suns/lol.jpg

[HurricaneKid]

Oh noes another delusional biased pro-player.

People that aren't delusional and don't live in the lalala land like the pro-players don't have to imagine. How about you getting fired and going to the unemployment line? How about that? How about not only being chains around but all the equipment was removed to pay the debts, and the 10\20 years workers are left with nothing? How about that?
And you know the CBA expired right? Did you expect a season with no CBA in place is that it? Do you also let strangers in your house, and use yoru stuff for no reason? Great for you.

yeah dude, keep drinking the players kool-aid, use arguments that were already proved to be lies

It doesn't? well go find another job then.

Off-course they are, because they union and the players are too retarded to notice.

Comical define well your opinion. And for someone to give back something they have to own it, so please explain me how did the players give a BILLION dollar back, when it's the owners money and there's no CBA in place, the 57% bri have EXPIRED!!

50% is little? Did you just mentioned the real world and then said that 50% of the revenue is little? :facepalm :applause:

Your're so smart, i bet if you brought this idea to the union, they would do it in a heartbeat!! Because it isn't done already, because nobody else ever thought about it! You're a genius!

And the suits that came up with the money and allowed them to be what they are, made 10x more. Thanks for shooting yourself on the foot.

Can anyone help show me how to put someone on ignore around here? I'd hate to have to read another post by this fellow.

[chips93]

Can anyone help show me how to put someone on ignore around here? I'd hate to have to read another post by this fellow.

click the username, then view profile, then theres a link to put a user on ignore.

[HurricaneKid]

Sadly it didn't work.

[Blue&Orange]

Can anyone help show me how to put someone on ignore around here? I'd hate to have to read another post by this fellow.
Did i owned you that bad? Didn't even break a sweat.

[HurricaneKid]

Did i owned you that bad? Didn't even break a sweat.

I love quality debate about basketball. Its unfortunate you couldn't provide any. You listed almost no facts and the few you managed to squeeze in between your name calling you had wrong. Reading your posts makes us all dumber. And I don't have the time to waste reading your mindless ramblings.

[Blue&Orange]

I love quality debate about basketball. Its unfortunate you couldn't provide any. You listed almost no facts and the few you managed to squeeze in between your name calling you had wrong. Reading your posts makes us all dumber. And I don't have the time to waste reading your mindless ramblings.
Funny that your excuse for the fact that you have absolutely no chance of coming back from my ownage of your ass, is that you have no time to read, when you already read it, you even went ahead a gave a description and opinion of what you read.:applause: You are so smart.

[ConanRulesNBC]

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w104/Samanthav_03/Suns/lol.jpg

:cheers:

Hilarious and so true and also really f*cking sad at the same time.

[Kevin_Gamble]

Can someone explain to me the arguement about the owner's not negotiating in "good faith"? Good faith does not mean a deal that is particularly favorable to the other side.

Have any of you bought a house knowing that the property had been on the market for 6+ months and the owners were carrying two mortgages and were desparate to sell?

If so, did you offer the owners something that would be in their best interest like say full asking price w/ no closing costs? Or did you offer an amount that would work best for you like 40K under asking and 4% closing costs?

If you chose the former, you are better than most people. Most people would choose the latter, as it would yeild a better deal for themselves. This is negotiation at its simplest. This is how business is conducted.
.

Let's say that you work in a Dairy Queen.

In this fictional world, your single most valuable skill is managing an ice cream store. In fact, if you were to take any other job, you will end up making 80% less money.

Now, You are so good at managing Dairy Queen, that people will pay money to see you manage. You are probably one of top 500 Dairy Queen managers in the entire world. It is a fact that the only reason people come to the Dairy Queen is to watch you manage. Dairy Queen pulls in millions in revenue every day.

Your contract with the Dairy Queen has run out. Now you go to negotiate a new contract. Dairy Queen says it will give you $7 /hr, even though you were receiving $40 /hr before. Dairy Queen owner says he is losing money.

You could go work for a Ben and Jerry's maybe. But wait! In this fictional world, Dairy Queen and other ice cream stores have been granted a special exemption from federal antitrust law, meaning ice cream store owners are able to band together and decide what the wage should be. Even before you submitted your application at B&J's, Dairy Queen owner had called B&J owner, and asked him not to offer more than $7 /hr.

You go from door to door of ice cream stores, trying to find a place that will pay you like the world-famous Dairy Queen manager you are, but the fact is, you have no bargaining power when owners are allowed to collude with each other, instead of bidding for you on the free market.

[Blue&Orange]

You could go work for a Ben and Jerry's maybe. But wait! In this fictional world, Dairy Queen and other ice cream stores have been granted a special exemption from federal antitrust law, meaning ice cream store owners are able to band together and decide what the wage should be. Even before you submitted your application at B&J's, Dairy Queen owner had called B&J owner, and asked him not to offer more than $7 /hr.

First, what you fail to understand it that the 30 NBA clubs belong all to Dairy Queen! The NBA is a single entity!
Second, there are lot of Dairy Queen players, playing in Ben and Jerry's right now! Where's Deron Williams playing? Where's Nicolas Batum playing?
Third, It was the players and the union that gave Dairy Queen a special exemption from federal antitrust law.

[copper]

:cheers:

Hilarious and so true and also really f*cking sad at the same time.
I wholeheartedly agree:cheers:

[blacknapalm]

Everyone has trouble thinking of professional athletes as victims. They are paid more than we are, our wildest dreams are their reality, and their worst case scenario is still the best case scenario for 99.9 percent of everyone else. There are plenty of rational reasons to have trouble sympathizing with aggrieved superstars. But that doesn't mean it's rational to expect them to be browbeaten without fighting back.

For the players to win a legal battle, it will take a favorable judge, some exhaustive work from the players' litigators, and a whole lot of patience. But this isn't some kneejerk negotiating gimmick. The owners have been using the threat of a lockout as a weapon all along, and the players had no other choice but to sink to their level.

And if there was any doubt about why and how we got here, no less than David Stern personified the problems on Monday afternoon. Not 30 minutes after the players opted to disband the union, it was Stern who took to national television oozing with condescension and contempt. even when the NFL went on strike in 1982, i don't think the players took nearly as much heat as NBA players are now.

As he said on ESPN: "They decided, obviously having been hopped up by Mr. Hunter and the lawyers brought in, that this was a good negotiating tactic. And that's all it is. This is a negotiating tactic. You don't get exactly the deal that you want, and you sue. But it's not gonna work. If they were gonna do it, they should have done it a long time ago. ... But they seem hellbent on self-destruction."

Later, when the anchor asked how he'd explain the news to disappointed basketball fans, Stern answered: "The fans can think that we were very close, and the players decided to blow it up." It was just perfect. No quote captures Stern's breathtaking audacity quite like that one.

This is all the players' fault, Stern tells his paying customers. They just refused to negotiate.

We've already outlined the broader, illogical dynamics driving the NBA lockout, but apart from all the numbers and rhetoric, it essentially comes down to the owners' all-encompassing entitlement. But even worse, Stern believes he's entitled to shaping the narrative in all this. In other words, not only can he and the owners erase 60 years of economic progress for the players, but they will rewrite the history as they go. And worst of all? A lot of smart people believe him.

As Ian Thomsen writes at Sports Illustrated on Monday: "For the NBA owners and players to shut down their league during the worst economic times in more than 60 years has got to be the dumbest thing they could imagine doing." And ... Wait a second. Wait wait wait wait wait wait, WAIT.

It wasn't the players who shut down the league. It was the players who offered 2.2 billion dollars to play, and then were told they had to offer more. It was the players who raised their offer to 3 billion, and then were told they had to agree to a whole other battery of concessions.

No, if there's sincere regret this year, it'll be when the owners give back millions of dollars in TV and sponsorship money, then pay a full staff of team employees with no revenue coming in. And for the first time in months, the players have forced the owners to reconcile with that reality. Unless they change course, not only will owners collectively forfeit billions, but they can expect to go to court and risk the future of their billion dollar assets.

For instance: How excited do you think the NBA would be to have their financial claims audited in federal court? What about when an independent economic expert weighs in on LeBron James' free market value? Or when a judge sees the months-long attempt for the players to negotiate a fair deal before opting for litigation--are we sure it'll be seen as a negotiating gimmick, then?

More than any league on earth, the NBA grows as a symbiotic organism with its superstars; a partnership where the players and owners share in the responsibility for growing the game. But it's a partnership where one side owns all the equity; so how could it possibly make sense to then split revenue 50-50? Stern and the owners have demanded that all along, and that's audacious enough. But they've also demanded it while painting the players as a bunch of greedy, uncooperative fools. Just look at the way Stern handled SportsCenter on Monday.

Just last week, even after the players capitulated to a 50-50 deal and agreed to eliminate the owners' annual economic risks, the owners had the arrogance to demand system changes that would eliminate their managements risks just the same. That's when their attitude was really laid bare.

"Competitive balance" is just code. The owners want shorter contracts to protect themselves from making foolish long-term investments. They also want to make it harder for superstars to change teams with a more rigid salary cap. In other words: On one hand, more player movement. On the other, restricted player movement. It's the NBA's bargaining strategy in a nutshell.

The owners own the bakery, they want rights to half the cake, and they want to eat it all, too.

From day one, the lockout's been wielded like a sword hanging over the players' head. The owners wanted an eye for an eye on every front. Everything that happened in the past few years--LeBron James leaving Cleveland, teams losing money, max contracts turned sour--the owners have sought to fix without breathing a word of compromise. The negotiations have been a monologue drenched in condescension, vague threats, and ominous deadlines.

Maybe it's true that players missing a season's worth of paychecks equates to mutually assured destruction, but you can only get pistol whipped for so long before you reach for a gun. There's no guarantee that a legal challenge does anything but prolong the inevitable massacre, and no doubt, if there's no basketball played this year, then everybody loses.

http://mobile.sbnation.com/nba/2011/11/15/2563056/nba-lockout-2011-david-stern-players

one of the better articles i've read on this

now that the players are losing paychecks and there's no guarantee of success in the courts, people will still find a way to paint the players as selfish. stern could have a 3rd lockout on his watch and people would still find ways to be spun by his PR campaign.


Throughout the process, Stern seems intent on infantilizing the players and their position. He figuratively pats them on the head -- he knows what's best for you, remember -- while employing questionable negotiating tactics.

Stern has done a good job selling the owners' side to the public.

Case in point: Prefacing a proposal by saying that if it's rejected, every subsequent proposal is going to get progressively worse. In truth, that's not negotiating at all. In most bargaining rooms, he would have been called an extortionist and tossed into the hallway. In certain circles, it's called blackmail.

(Let's pretend you and I are negotiating over a piece of property. You're selling, and you're asking $200,000. I believe this price is too high, so I counter with $150,000. You have 48 hours to deliberate, and, when you come back, you say, "The new price is $190,000, and if you don't accept, the price will go up from there." You just made it easy on me -- I'm off to look at the next piece of property.)

The players aren't pure. Far from it. In an economy that continues to struggle, it's difficult to find much in the way of sympathy for them. But it takes a certain amount of courage to do what they're doing. (Courage in the oh-no-what-now? sense, not courage in the take-the-mountain-to-save-your-buddy sense.) Like the NFL players before them, the NBA players are negotiating in the dark armed with a weak flashlight. To understand what you can demand, you need to know what the market can bear. But because the owners don't have to open their books, there's a limit to what the players know.

The players' decision to agree to a 50-50 revenue split was not some wild overestimation of their worth. It was the owners' proposal. It was a compromise from the previous proposals. It was the split that was on the table, the one that was going to get progressively (exponentially?) worse the longer it took to complete a deal. And now? Well, it probably will get worse.

The owners know they can hold out. They know the players are going to start calculating how much money they're losing by not playing. They know the players are going to start wondering whether it's really worth the trouble to hold out any longer for the relatively minor issues that remain undecided. The bigger problem, I'm guessing, is whether they're going to come back to the same deal they left behind.

But you've got to give it to Stern. He's the master of spin. He can look so doggone convincing, so hangdog honest, that you can momentarily forget he's a cut-throat businessman. There's one thing he never forgets, though: He's holding a winning hand, and he never has to show it.

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/id/7237512/save-us-nba-commissioner-david-stern

[Sarcastic]

First, what you fail to understand it that the 30 NBA clubs belong all to Dairy Queen! The NBA is a single entity!
Second, there are lot of Dairy Queen players, playing in Ben and Jerry's right now! Where's Deron Williams playing? Where's Nicolas Batum playing?
Third, It was the players and the union that gave Dairy Queen a special exemption from federal antitrust law.

Actually the Supreme Court ruled 9-0 in American Needle vs the NFL, that the NFL is NOT a single entity.

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/05/sports-and-the-law-supreme-court-rules-the-nfl-is-not-a-single-entity/

This would apply to the NBA as well.

[Joey Zaza]

Cannot be "officially" against anyone and any article (like the one above) putting it all on either party is wrong.

The fact is that despite the rhetoric, there wasn't any deal on any table at any time in the last three months that would not have resulted in everybody in the room making alot of money.

The NBA is a business, and as a business, they are in the business of making money. The players are professionals, and as professionals they are in the business of playing basketball for money.

The only way no one makes money is by not agreeing.

So despite every opportunity in the world to make money, they all chose (yes it was a choice) to not make money.

Accordingly, they're all idiots.

---I like the Dairy Queen example above, but what is missing in the DQ example is that these guys --all of them -- stand to make a fortune. And yes, the amount they stand to make matters. The poor DQ guy in the example making $40 or $7 per hr and the poor DQ owner who if he pays the $40/hr to pour ice cream (its still just pouring ice cream) will lose money and probably have to close the joint down..are not the same.

[Joey Zaza]

http://phildobinson.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/david-stern-001.jpg

"After 5000 hrs of negotiations and meetings, we've decided to opt for a business model where no one makes any money"

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/files/2011/11/Peter-Holt-draft-1109-306x272.jpg

"Hot diggity!!! I'm not making any money this year!! Yee-Haw!"

[Blue&Orange]

Actually the Supreme Court ruled 9-0 in American Needle vs the NFL, that the NFL is NOT a single entity.

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/05/sports-and-the-law-supreme-court-rules-the-nfl-is-not-a-single-entity/

This would apply to the NBA as well.
Nothing like spend hours researching the Internet, find something that hurts your argument and still use it. :lol Sarcastic you're awsome.

From the same article:
[QUOTE]After allowing the case to proceed into the discovery stage, Judge Moran of the Northern District of Illinois granted summary judgment in favor of the NFL clubs, ruling that the NFL acted as a single entity for purposes of trademark licensing and thus was exempt from Section 1 of the Sherman Act. The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed, holding that whether a sports league should be treated as a single entity is a matter to be decided

[Joey Zaza]

http://www.hiphop808.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/rsz_keisha_cole_and_husband.jpg

"You chose 'no money' over money?!?"

"Nahhh see baby, you gotta understand..52% 47%... dairy queen...its complicated"

[Sarcastic]

Nothing like spend hours researching the Internet, find something that hurts your argument and still use it. :lol Sarcastic you're awsome.

From the same article:

Ummm The Supreme Court is higher than Judge Moran of the Northern District of Illinois. :facepalm

[Blue&Orange]

Ummm The Supreme Court is higher than Judge Moran of the Northern District of Illinois. :facepalm
And?
[QUOTE]The win, while a big one for American Needle, doesn

[Sarcastic]

And?

u know, the lower court where the NFL was ruled as a single entity.

Let's see what are the odds of NFL losing:

Almost non-existent. But most important:



This is tiresome.

And? And they ruled that the NFL is not a single entity. Once they make a ruling, then that is it. Every ruling below is moot.

[bigdog13]

If dairy queen baskin Robbins and Ben and Jerry's are conspiring againt you to pay a good wage, go to Turkey, Spain, France, Israel, Croatia etc to manage one of their many ice cream shop. They have not agreed with the US ice cream vendors to keep the ice cream market down.

[Bernie Nips]

And?

u know, the lower court where the NFL was ruled as a single entity.

Let's see what are the odds of NFL losing:

Almost non-existent. But most important:



This is tiresome.

Haha you're pretty bad at this.

[with malice]

Firstly, I fall into the category of blaming both. The owners are definitely eying off the new TV deal that'll come in during 2016, and want more of that - money-grabbing guys who simply can't get enough. The players are definitely pushing their own barrow of greed as well. Sick and tired of hearing them talk about what's "fair"...


Total NFL players: ~1,700
Total MLB players: ~750
Total NHL players: ~1,500


...


Total NBA players: 360

And they're getting paid the worst. Doesn't make sense.
Hold a sec...
NBA average salary: $5.15 million
NHL average salary: $2.14 million
MLB average salary: $3.01 million
NFL average salary: $1.9 million

How on earth does that equate to being paid the worst? Per capita, the NBA is pretty much has the richest players in the history of sports.
Aaah... I see this was already pointed out.


By basically not taking this deal, however you want to view the act of doing that, the players will lose more money by missed games than they'd have "lost" (compared to the previous CBA) throughout the life of the new deal.
Very definition of a Pyrrhic victory... should they even win. There's every chance that they DON'T win, and will be forced to take an even worse deal. It's lose/lose for all involved. But none moreso than those regular folk employed by the NBA and ancillary services who have or will lose salaries or jobs over this.



I doubt that the owners will maintain their hardline stance once they realize that they arent making money at all while tons of players start balling overseas.

I understand what you're saying but there are multiple leagues and locals for players to choose from. Some can go to china as well as Europe.


I guess China/Australia dont exist now.
It's a good idea, but this isn't quite accurate. The vast majority of players simply aren't going to get a gig overseas. Most won't even try, and there are (in most places) limits on the amount of foreign personnel you can employ for your team. Of the near 500 players in the NBA, I'd imagine probably fewer than 25% will end up overseas if the season's called.
Even home-town hero Andrew Bogut couldn't end up playing in Oz, as the insurance for his contract was simply prohibitive. He was going to play for free, should a team be willing to pay his insurance. No-one could come up with the cash.
Even if they can get a deal, it's going to be for a very small fraction of what they would get in the NBA.

[Bernie Nips]

Firstly, I fall into the category of blaming both. The owners are definitely eying off the new TV deal that'll come in during 2016, and want more of that - money-grabbing guys who simply can't get enough. The players are definitely pushing their own barrow of greed as well. Sick and tired of hearing them talk about what's "fair"...


Hold a sec...
NBA average salary: $5.15 million
NHL average salary: $2.14 million
MLB average salary: $3.01 million
NFL average salary: $1.9 million

How on earth does that equate to being paid the worst? Per capita, the NBA is pretty much has the richest players in the history of sports.
Aaah... I see this was already pointed out.

How many players in the NBA are actually playing regular minutes in comparison to the listed players in other sports? That's what brings their averages down, they're paying not-so-great contracts (on a comparative basis) to 100% depth players who are literally only there if half the team comes down with injuries.

[bigdog13]

How many players in the NBA are actually playing regular minutes in comparison to the listed players in other sports? That's what brings their averages down, they're paying not-so-great contracts (on a comparative basis) to 100% depth players who are literally only there if half the team comes down with injuries.

I am lost with your last statement. The average salary for a NBA player getting any decent burn is like 9 million.

[with malice]

How many players in the NBA are actually playing regular minutes in comparison to the listed players in other sports? That's what brings their averages down, they're paying not-so-great contracts (on a comparative basis) to 100% depth players who are literally only there if half the team comes down with injuries.
Sorry man, I'm a lil' lost as to the relevance. How much they play doesn't impact the average salary for any sport... or have I missed what you mean?

[Sarcastic]

The average salary is irrelevant. Their salaries are directly tied to revenue. They happen to be the smallest league, and they produce the most revenue per player, which is why the average is so high.

[bigdog13]

:roll:
The average salary is irrelevant. Their salaries are directly tied to revenue. They happen to be the smallest league, and they produce the most revenue per player, which is why the average is so high.

Duh. NHL is the smallest league.

[with malice]

The average salary is irrelevant. Their salaries are directly tied to revenue. They happen to be the smallest league, and they produce the most revenue per player, which is why the average is so high.
I didn't bring it up. Bernie Nips stated that the NBA had the fewest players, but got paid the worst. This is incorrect.

[Sarcastic]

:roll:

Duh. NHL is the smallest league.

NBA: 30 teams X 15 players
NHL: 30 teams X 25 players

[SteelerKobeFan]

Let's say that you work in a Dairy Queen.

In this fictional world, your single most valuable skill is managing an ice cream store. In fact, if you were to take any other job, you will end up making 80% less money.

Now, You are so good at managing Dairy Queen, that people will pay money to see you manage. You are probably one of top 500 Dairy Queen managers in the entire world. It is a fact that the only reason people come to the Dairy Queen is to watch you manage. Dairy Queen pulls in millions in revenue every day.

Your contract with the Dairy Queen has run out. Now you go to negotiate a new contract. Dairy Queen says it will give you $7 /hr, even though you were receiving $40 /hr before. Dairy Queen owner says he is losing money.

You could go work for a Ben and Jerry's maybe. But wait! In this fictional world, Dairy Queen and other ice cream stores have been granted a special exemption from federal antitrust law, meaning ice cream store owners are able to band together and decide what the wage should be. Even before you submitted your application at B&J's, Dairy Queen owner had called B&J owner, and asked him not to offer more than $7 /hr.

You go from door to door of ice cream stores, trying to find a place that will pay you like the world-famous Dairy Queen manager you are, but the fact is, you have no bargaining power when owners are allowed to collude with each other, instead of bidding for you on the free market.

I appreciate the reply, but I don't know if this analogy acutally suits the situation. I understand you are speaking relatively for the sake of the discussion, but players aren't being asked to take that drastic of a paycut. Wouldn't it be more accurate to scale if you said the DQ person were asked to come down from $40/hr to $35/hr or $30/hr? The person would still be able to live off of this money, but it just isnt as much as before so they would need to adjust. Just like NBA players would still live luxuriously, but intead of buying a $10 million home, they had to buy a $5mill home.

Also, in relation to the BRI split. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but NBA players aren't actually being asked to take a pay cut in their base salary in relation to the BRI split. It's the additional revenue generated by other things like Jersey sales, ticket sales, etc. that will be reduced. So no matter how much BRI is generated, whether it be $1.00 or $1 billion, the players will still be receiving the amount of their base salary. Basically, BRI is a bonus check. Again, if I'm mistaken, you can correct me, but this is my understanding of how BRI is distributed.

So in your analogy would it be incorrect to say that the DQ person is being asked to take a paycut from $40/hr to $35/hr and get less of a Christmas bonus?

I'm not trying to troll, I just dont see how this is such a bad deal that everyone is screaming "BAD FAITH!!" Negotiations usually start with one side over charging and the other one lowballing. Each side wants to get the better of each other and the best deal is usually reached when no one is completely satisfied. It's just the nature of negotiating a contract. IDK seems like normal negotiations to me from both sides up until this point.

[Kevin_Gamble]

I'm not trying to troll, I just dont see how this is such a bad deal that everyone is screaming "BAD FAITH!!" Negotiations usually start with one side over charging and the other one lowballing. Each side wants to get the better of each other and the best deal is usually reached when no one is completely satisfied. It's just the nature of negotiating a contract. IDK seems like normal negotiations to me from both sides up until this point.

Yes, but negotiation doesn't work in a meaningful way when one side holds all the cards but one, which is decertification and lawsuit--something that really can't count as a bargaining chip for the players since it hurts both sides. We can discuss the lockout all we want, but we should keep in mind that these are not negotiations that happen in a vacuum. If all telephone companies decided to merge to form one National Association of Telephone, that would be broken up in a second since it's meaningless to "negotiate" both for the employees and customers when there are no alternatives.

[HurricaneKid]

Also, in relation to the BRI split. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but NBA players aren't actually being asked to take a pay cut in their base salary in relation to the BRI split. It's the additional revenue generated by other things like Jersey sales, ticket sales, etc. that will be reduced. So no matter how much BRI is generated, whether it be $1.00 or $1 billion, the players will still be receiving the amount of their base salary. Basically, BRI is a bonus check. Again, if I'm mistaken, you can correct me, but this is my understanding of how BRI is distributed.

You're wrong here. BRI is Basketball Related income.

Basketball Related Income (BRI) essentially includes any income received by the NBA, NBA Properties or NBA Media Ventures. This includes:

Regular season gate receipts
Broadcast rights
Exhibition game proceeds
Playoff gate receipts
Novelty, program and concession sales (at the arena and in team-identified stores within proximity of an NBA arena)
Parking
Proceeds from team sponsorships
Proceeds from team promotions
Arena club revenues
Proceeds from summer camps
Proceeds from non-NBA basketball tournaments
Proceeds from mascot and dance team appearances
Proceeds from beverage sale rights
40% of proceeds from arena signage
40% of proceeds from luxury suites
45% - 50% of proceeds from arena naming rights
Proceeds from other premium seat licenses
Proceeds received by NBA Properties, including international television, sponsorships, revenues from NBA Entertainment, the All-Star Game, the McDonald's Championship and other NBA special events.

*Some of the things specifically not included in BRI are proceeds from the grant of expansion teams, fines, and revenue sharing (e.g. luxury tax).

The salary cap is set in relationship to this income. The previous CBA provided players 57% of this income. There is a escrow for player salaries of 10% (essentially considered a holdback) to make sure the owners don't end up paying too high of a percentage of income out in salaries. This is not a "bonus check" this is how all player earnings is calculated.

The players have essentially AGREED to a 12.3% reduction.