How have unprofessional players screwed over your team?

[Fatal9]

Vince Carter

- signed to a max deal by the Raptors, two years into his contract he publicly admitted to not trying. went from 16 ppg player to 28 ppg season after the trade was made. he lowered his trade value to the point where Raptors could get nothing of value in return. Alonzo Mourning wouldn't even report to the team.
- this deal crippled the franchise for years

Hedo Turkoglu

- after having a couple of great years with the Magic, he was signed to a huge contract.
- by the end of his first year, he began faking injuries (would be spotted partying when he was "sick" or "hurt"), his play suddenly dropped off significantly from the previous years. he requested a trade by the end of the year.

I won't include Bosh in this but if those guys were colluding to join up years before the free agency last year then that's shameful. These are two of more notorious examples in the last 8 years for Raptors but there are more.

Here is what studies on the contract year phenomenon have found:

- The evidence for contract year phenomenon occurrence in MLB is inconsistent. Sometimes happens, sometimes doesn't, occurs somewhat though in the MLB
- rarely ever occurs in the NFL (due to non-guaranteed contracts and relatively low salaries for non-QB players)
- There is a very high occurrence of contract year phenomenon in the NBA. Many many studies have been done, NBA always ranks highest in performance varying before/after a contract year. This is because of the lengthy guaranteed contracts and the high salaries (kill it one year, and you set yourself up for life).

You can google all the various studies done on this through this link: http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&cp=19&gs_id=1y&xhr=t&q=nba+contract+year+phenomenon&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&safe=off&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=nba+contract+year+p&aq=0v&aqi=g-v1g-j3&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=c1ac944afefd5abb&biw=1366&bih=643

I've seen people who support players use MLB/NFL studies to act like this doesn't occur in the NBA when this varies greatly from sport to sport.

NBA athletes are by far the most unprofessional in sports, who have used the system to their advantage over the years and screwed over countless teams/owners/fans with stuff like this. And this doesn't even mention players like Melo who held the Nuggets hostage the entire season to get to the team he wanted to go to. Players like LeBron/Bosh/Wade who allegedly colluded before free agency even began about joining up in Miami (and in LeBron's case, informing his team on national TV at the same time everyone else found out). Players killing their trade value so to force a trade.

Now why oh why would want the owners/fans want shorter contracts, non guaranteed deals and a system which won't allow superstars to hold team hostage and go wherever they want (through sign and trades)? How many players are overpaid because they MAKE themselves overpaid by dogging it after signing a contract?

reason #1482991774 I don't support the players on these issues. the system clearly needs to be changed to prevent players from exploiting teams like this.

[32Dayz]

My Team (The Knicks)

Stephon Marbury - Went insane stopped playing
http://dogandponyshowwebsite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/0.jpg

Steve Francis - Playground player exposed for being not so good
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.aolnews.com/media/2007/10/steve-francis-thumbs-up-425.jpg

Eddy Curry - Mcdonalds/Fatass - Looks like Biggie Smalls.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yYMk44HV4_I/TZeB0jd5XyI/AAAAAAAAANA/LSr2ZE3mKSI/s1600/eddy.curry.jpeg

Jermone James - Fat/Injured? I dunno what happened but we signed him to a huge contract and I cant remember him playing more like 15 minutes for my Knicks.
http://www.theracersedge.net/images/celebs/Jerome_James.jpg

And ofc the worst of all
Isaiah Thomas : Signed all those garbage players to huge contracts and then smiled with that s*** eating grin of his.
http://ll-media.essence.com/archive/isiah-thomas-smile-425.jpg

[9512]

Shawn Kemp whining about wanting his contract reconstructed because some scrub named Jim Mcilvaine got a 35 mil contract.

This was almost the beginning of the end of his career.

[HeyMarkus]

im a cavs fan

[chains5000]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zedlobzKwP4/TQyfNMoDwaI/AAAAAAAAAHg/bpRx8TOHM20/s1600/gilbert-arenas-4.jpg
no explanation needed

[Fatal9]

Eddy Curry - Mcdonalds/Fatass - Looks like Biggie Smalls.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yYMk44HV4_I/TZeB0jd5XyI/AAAAAAAAANA/LSr2ZE3mKSI/s1600/eddy.curry.jpeg
And now that his contract has ended, he has lost all that weight and has been working out relentlessly with Tim Grover

:rolleyes:

[Fiasco]

Baron Davis.

/thread

[32Dayz]

And now that his contract has ended, he has lost all that weight and has been working out relentlessly with Tim Grover

:rolleyes:

Believe it or not I still think Curry has potential.

In today's league I dont think it'd be a stretch to say that he could be a Top 5 Bigman on the offense end anyway if he got back in good shape and stayed that way.

I could easily see him putting up 15-20ppg on high efficiency if he was healthy and in good enough shape to play 30+ minutes.

Guess we'll see how effective he can be next season depending on if Miami signs him or not.

Personally I dont see it happening, he just doesn't have the work ethic or drive to do it.

Also anyone think Curry often looks like he's just smoked a big ol fat Blunt?
Picture of Biggie for comparison.
http://blog.lp33.tv/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/TI89971.jpg

[rodman91]

im a cavs fan
and?

[32Dayz]

and?

Agreed, Lebron gave the Cav's 7 good years despite never being surrounded by any decent talent.

He left as a "Free" Agent, he didnt do anything to hurt the franchise infact he gave the franchise 7 years of amazing sucuess and playoff runs which they sure as hell wouldnt have had without him so he did alot for the Cleveland fans.

[Fatal9]

and?
We could start with Larry Hughes...

[InspiredLebowski]

I'm a Pacers fan. /story

[icewill36]

craptors shouldve surrounded VC with better players...

[Yung D-Will]

im a cavs fan
Speaks for itself.

[Toizumi]

Earlier this decade, the Blazers had a bunch of great players and former stars on their roster. The team was deeply stacked. We didn't have a true superstar (eventhough Sheed came close), but we had a lot of quality players on there. There was some on court chemistry lacking some of the time, but what hurt the team more was off the court issues and attitude problems:
Sheed Wallace was the king of the technicals and getting ejected.
Kemp was fat and outta shape - we knew that when we signed him.
everybody was getting high/arrested...

I think that most posters remember the Jailblazers era.

Here's some wikipedia insight for those who don't:


The next two seasons were just as disastrous for the team's reputation. Numerous players, including Wallace, Stoudamire, and Qyntel Woods, were cited for marijuana possession.[58]

Woods pled guilty to first-degree animal abuse for staging dog fights in his house, some involving his pit bull named Hollywood. Hollywood and Woods' other pit bull, Sugar, were confiscated, and Woods was given eighty hours of community service. He also agreed to donate $10,000 to the Oregon Humane Society.
[59] Wallace was suspended for seven games for threatening a referee.[60]

Zach Randolph and Patterson got in a fight during practice, with Randolph sucker punching his teammate in the eye, an injury which kept Patterson from making a meaningful contribution during the playoffs.[61]

When police came to Stoudamire's house to respond to a burglar alarm, they noticed the smell of marijuana, searched the premises, and found a pound of cannabis located in a crawlspace;[62] the search was later declared illegal and charges in the matter were dropped.[63] Guard Bonzi Wells famously told Sports Illustrated in a 2002 interview:[64]

"[T]hey [the fans] really don't matter to us. They can boo us every day, but they're still going to ask for our autographs if they see us on the street."

:facepalm

Ownership decided to blow the rosterup because of all the issues. We then built around true professionals such as Sebastian Telfair, Zach Randolph, Darius Miles.. oh wait:


Players such as Miles, Patterson, Randolph, and Sebastian Telfair were involved in either on-court bickering or off-court legal incidents

.. not too mention they sucked out on the court, with most of our guys playing selfish as hell (admitted, they were still young) and b*tching about minutes.


http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/187821_206421596058813_5227548_n.jpg

[coin24]

^^^ I used to love watching those early 00s Blazers teams, shame they could never get it together...

Even now, if they had there whole roster healthy they would be top 2-3 team in the west... Must be tough being a Blazer fan...



Actually, the pacers after they blew the team up after the brawl.... damn theyve had a bad run aswell..



Anyways its not like we're going to see any games for a long time now:cry:

[Toizumi]

^^^ I used to love watching those early 00s Blazers teams, shame they could never get it together...


:cheers:

Most people did back then.. how could someone not like them with plays like these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C0iK_3FgAY

A lot of fun to watch. Solid on both ends of the court, great in transition and they had good finishers.



Even now, if they had there whole roster healthy they would be top 2-3 team in the west... Must be tough being a Blazer fan...

It's ok since we have good guys on the rosters and have been winning. The injuries hurt us of course, but we've been a playoff m for the past few years and after those Zach Randolph led teams we had mid decade, everything 'll do :oldlol:



Actually, the pacers after they blew the team up after the brawl.... damn theyve had a bad run aswell..

Anyways its not like we're going to see any games for a long time now:cry:

Good one.

The brawl cost them the season and in a way messed up their future, but in the long term it only really cost them Ron Artest (who was traded the season after). He would've been a big part of their future and they were contenders for winning the east that year, so the brawl hurt the pacers, but they didn't trade away any of the guys that were involved in the brawl.

Jackson and Tinsley had that stripclub shooting thing as well though right? Enough contreversy and stupid unproffesional stuff within the organization back then :facepalm

[Sarcastic]

http://people.bu.edu/arupsen/rice_sen_CONTRACTS.pdf

This study shows the contract year phenomenon is not as big an issue as people think in the NBA.


Did Steve Nash start to get lazy after he signed as a free agent with Phoenix in 2004? He won back to back MVPs, no?

Did Shaq start to get lazy after he signed as a free agent with the Lakers? MVP, 3 rings, 3 FMVP.

Did Albert Haynesworth continue to play his ass off for the Redskins because he was scared to get cut due to his non guaranteed contract?

[StroShow4]

The Gilbert Arenas/Isiah Knicks examples aren't really examples of players screwing teams. Those are examples of teams screwing themselves.

[Fatal9]

http://people.bu.edu/arupsen/rice_sen_CONTRACTS.pdf

This study shows the contract year phenomenon is not as big an issue as people think in the NBA.

I would suggest you actually read the results of your linked study.

The two results they found in that one were (and I quote this):

A) These results re-emphasize that player productivity is negatively associated with time until contract renewal.

Meaning the productivity increases as time until contract renewal decreases. Or in other words productivity is lowest when time until contract renewal is longest.

B) [I]We final that relative to the year prior (i.e., the final year of the previous contract), player productivity falls by 16%, lending support to the hypothesis of decreased e

[Sarcastic]

Did you read the whole thing? It's ok if you didn't.



3. in spite of this shirking, the multi-period guaranteed contract may be Pareto efficient


The model lends a sound economic justification for the existence
of multi-period contracts in spite of the effort effects: with uncertain output, these contracts act
as insurance for the agent and, in return for bearing some of the risk, firms benefit by paying a
lower wage

[HylianNightmare]

rashard lewis sucking after he got off his drugs
doug christie pouting when he got shipped to the magic

[Fatal9]

You realize whether a contract is Pareto efficient/inefficient doesn't depend on the productivity of the player right (it only leaves open to the possibility that contracts with a player producing less may still be mutually benefit to both sides)? Secondly, the second sentence you quoted is followed by this paragraph which suggests incentive based contracts:

[I]To the extent that multi-period contracts give reduced effort incentives, one might wonder if there is any economic justification as to why NBA contracts, and those in other labor markets, are written in this fixed-wage manner. Indeed, an optimal contract should include all (free) contingencies which provide information regarding the agent

[Sarcastic]

Jesus Christ man, finish reading.


there may exist
efficiency reasons for paying fixed-wages because any attempt to specifically engineer incentives
to motivate hard work in every period may conflict with other team or league-wide profitability
goals. Thus, including an array of bonuses is not "free" since their presence may give rise to
new sources of inefficiencies. Including additional year-by-year player bonuses in the NBA for
surpassing a prespecified points-scored threshold, for instance, may motivate the player to shoot
at every opportunity which, in-turn, conflicts with sound teamwork that is valued by fans and is
critical for overall franchise success

[Fatal9]

Jesus Christ man, finish reading.
:facepalm

How about you point by point go against what I'm saying and what the results found, instead scouring the article for possible inferences, suggestions and warnings that may support what you're saying (and passing those off as results).

Quit unconditionally supporting the players on everything, it's pathetic to see some of the arguments you're making on here. I almost feel like I'm being trolled here. Contract years players exist and exist much more in NBA compared to other sports. This is not arguable.

Productivity of players goes down significantly after they sign new contracts, fact. Productivity of players rises as contract renewal approaches, fact. And the study you posted (and every study done on this) finds this to be true. Most NBA fans don't even need studies to tell them this because they've followed the league and their teams closely enough to see this happen every year.

And incentive based contracts can be structured not only on individual performance but through a combination of team performance as well. Regardless, shorter and non-guaranteed contracts would be the cure to this problem. I'm NOT for non-guaranteed contracts because I do believe that players overall deserve some level of security (but maybe more team options though, but in a way that protects the player in case of legitimate injuries during the duration of the contract). Shorter contract lengths will be part of the cure to this problem. The owners are absolutely right in demanding them, maybe there would be more sympathy for the players had they not taken advantage by duping teams like this.

[JohnnyWall]

Three divas turning us into a media-whore joke of a team.

http://www.jimrome.com/cimages/var/ezjimrome/storage/images/repository/photos/lebron-james-dwyane-wade-chris-bosh-2010-miami-heat-introduction4/244267-1-eng-US/LeBron-James-Dwyane-Wade-Chris-Bosh-2010-Miami-Heat-Introduction_photo_medium.jpg

Wait, nevermind... I'm not actually a Heat fan

[kurple]

It wasn't his unprofessionalism that ****ed us, but the KMart contract was terrible and made it impossible to add good FA's when he was always injured

[Sarcastic]

:facepalm

How about you point by point go against what I'm saying and what the results found, instead scouring the article for possible inferences, suggestions and warnings that may support what you're saying (and passing those off as results).

Quit unconditionally supporting the players on everything, it's pathetic to see some of the arguments you're making on here. I almost feel like I'm being trolled here. Contract years players exist and exist much more in NBA compared to other sports. This is not arguable.

Productivity of players goes down significantly after they sign new contracts, fact. Productivity of players rises as contract renewal approaches, fact. And the study you posted (and every study done on this) finds this to be true. Most NBA fans don't even need studies to tell them this because they've followed the league and their teams closely enough to see this happen every year.

And incentive based contracts can be structured not only on individual performance but through a combination of team performance as well. Regardless, shorter and non-guaranteed contracts would be the cure to this problem. I'm NOT for non-guaranteed contracts because I do believe that players overall deserve some level of security (but maybe more team options though, but in a way that protects the player in case of legitimate injuries during the duration of the contract). Shorter contract lengths will be part of the cure to this problem. The owners are absolutely right in demanding them, maybe there would be more sympathy for the players had they not taken advantage by duping teams like this.


Just because you don't get it, and hate the rich players for making money for basketball doesn't mean I am wrong.

Let's say we move to a model where everyone is on a 1 year contract, and has to prove himself every year. First thing you would have to do is get rid of the caps since pay is directly tied to performance. No more team salary caps, and no more caps on max salaries. Someone like Lebron James is now going to be trying to stat pad at every opportunity he has. He will be looking to put up 40/15/15 every night so he can maximize his pay. So instead of paying Lebron his $15 million or whatever he made last year, he will now be demanding $50 million plus every year. This is going to happen league wide with all the stars, and team salaries are going to go up everywhere.

Guaranteed contracts help both sides of the equation, and this is what the paper was getting at. It allows the owners to save money from having to pay out extra every year because players are blowing out their numbers, and it helps the players out by taking away the risk that comes with not hitting certain numbers. It also brings about selfishness, which goes against the principles of team basketball.

Let's say you were to implement team incentives as well. What could end up happening with that situation is that more and more stars could decide to band together and create even more super teams, while leaving everyone else in the dust.

Another possible problem with this model is what would stop a team from deciding to force a player to sit down before reaching certain goals? We already saw this with Nate Robinson on the Knicks. He was benched before hitting goals he had in his contract, and was promptly released by the team.

I believe Vince Carter was released from Phoenix in a similar situation.


If you really want to watch selfish basketball, you can always watch And 1.

[PowerGlove]

I have no ill will towards Vince, as an organization, we sucked. Ran his cousin out of town, a player who could have given us the greatest SG-SF combo in NBA history. Constantly put him on shitty teams, blew draft picks like crazy.

[gasolina]

He will be looking to put up 40/15/15 every night so he can maximize his pay. So instead of paying Lebron his $15 million or whatever he made last year, he will now be demanding $50 million plus every year. This is going to happen league wide with all the stars, and team salaries are going to go up everywhere.
ok so why didn't Lebron do 40/15/15 in his last year w/ Cleveland? All you assumptions are hypothetical and exaggerated. Why not focus on facts like actual stats of NBA players in their contract year and the dropoff after?

:facepalm

[LJJ]

Loving the Jailblazers stories.


Whenever the Blazers sign a player to a 10-day contract the equipment manager provides the player with a free set of team-issue luggage. Sort of a welcome gift. Nothing incredibly fancy, but it's way better than the stuff I have. So Omar Cook is signed a couple of years ago, and the luggage is placed in front of his locker. Cook was flying in from out of town, so he's not there yet. Ruben Patterson, the team's registered sex offender, sees the luggage, knows Cook isn't around yet, and Patterson basically just decides he's going to abscond the luggage. He just rips the name tags off and takes it. Nobody says a word, either. It's not anything violent, but it demonstrates the lack of decency and respect that permeated.

http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2008/04/07/an-interview-with-the-oregonians-john-canzano/#more-5319

Great interview.

[tpols]

http://people.bu.edu/arupsen/rice_sen_CONTRACTS.pdf

This study shows the contract year phenomenon is not as big an issue as people think in the NBA.


Did Steve Nash start to get lazy after he signed as a free agent with Phoenix in 2004? He won back to back MVPs, no?

Did Shaq start to get lazy after he signed as a free agent with the Lakers? MVP, 3 rings, 3 FMVP.

Alright.. you have two examples with one of them being a guy that has to protect his legacy which is why he still played hard. There can be given 10 examples of guys dogging it though for every exception you post. Most players in the league dont play the game to win because, at the end of the day, role players and even average allstars get no credit for the ring.. just the superstars get that recognition. And that is why you see superstars keep trying and guys below that stop after getting paid.

[Sarcastic]

ok so why didn't Lebron do 40/15/15 in his last year w/ Cleveland? All you assumptions are hypothetical and exaggerated. Why not focus on facts like actual stats of NBA players in their contract year and the dropoff after?

:facepalm

Because he wasn't trying to stat pad for a new contract.

The system we have in place has benefits for both sides. The owners get a discount on the price of talent, and the players get job security.

Best of all the fans get to watch better team basketball, rather than selfish chuckers.

A few years ago a bunch of players on the Clippers were all in their contract year. Team play suffered and the team sucked because no one cared about the team results, just their numbers.

[tpols]

Let's say we move to a model where everyone is on a 1 year contract, and has to prove himself every year. First thing you would have to do is get rid of the caps since pay is directly tied to performance. No more team salary caps, and no more caps on max salaries. Someone like Lebron James is now going to be trying to stat pad at every opportunity he has. He will be looking to put up 40/15/15 every night so he can maximize his pay. So instead of paying Lebron his $15 million or whatever he made last year, he will now be demanding $50 million plus every year. This is going to happen league wide with all the stars, and team salaries are going to go up everywhere..
What? This makes no sense.

You're acting like owners sit in an office and crunch stats all day to determine how much they'll pay a player. Thats not how it works. Owners already know Lebron is a great player.. if he were to go out and ballhog like that that would actually be a NEGATIVE because the owners would see his selfish play as a detriment to their team's success. You're acting like the owners couldn't put these things into context. They're not stupid.

[Sarcastic]

What? This makes no sense.

You're acting like owners sit in an office and crunch stats all day to determine how much they'll pay a player. Thats not how it works. Owners already know Lebron is a great player.. if he were to go out and ballhog like that that would actually be a NEGATIVE because the owners would see his selfish play as a detriment to their team's success. You're acting like the owners couldn't put these things into context. They're not stupid.

That's exactly the point. It would be negative if Lebron had to play for a new contract every year. He would be looking to put up the best possible stats every time he touched the ball. This concept doesn't work in basketball because in order for the team players need to not play selfish.

In a sport like baseball, performance based pay is fine. If a guy goes up and hits a home run every single at bat, he is not being selfish. He is just really good, and not hurting the team. He is actually helping the team win.

If Lebron takes the ball on every possession and tries to score he is being selfish, and most likely is not helping his team win the game.

[tpols]

That's exactly the point. It would be negative if Lebron had to play for a new contract every year. He would be looking to put up the best possible stats every time he touched the ball. This concept doesn't work in basketball because in order for the team players need to not play selfish.

In a sport like baseball, performance based pay is fine. If a guy goes up and hits a home run every single at bat, he is not being selfish. He is just really good, and not hurting the team. He is actually helping the team win.

If Lebron takes the ball on every possession and tries to score he is being selfish, and most likely is not helping his team win the game.
What I'm saying is that Lebron would have NO incentive to statpad like that because he would realize that owners would see it as a negative. What does Lebron James, back to back MVP, have to prove to the owners? He's already shown how good he can be. There's absolutely no incentive for HIM to statpad and ruin his team's chemistry because that would end up netting him a worse contract in the future because he'd have the reputation of being a team killer. He wouldn't do it.

[Sarcastic]

What I'm saying is that Lebron would have NO incentive to statpad like that because he would realize that owners would see it as a negative. What does Lebron James, back to back MVP, have to prove to the owners? He's already shown how good he can be. There's absolutely no incentive for HIM to statpad and ruin his team's chemistry because that would end up netting him a worse contract in the future because he'd have the reputation of being a team killer. He wouldn't do it.

I was just using his name as an example. Every player would be compelled to stat pad and play selfish if their next contract is based on their performance.

Read the paper.

Yes, there are bumps in performance in contract years, but the negatives that are associated with it are offset by the positives of not having a team of selfish players.

[Kurosawa0]

I have no ill will towards Vince, as an organization, we sucked. Ran his cousin out of town, a player who could have given us the greatest SG-SF combo in NBA history. Constantly put him on shitty teams, blew draft picks like crazy.

At no point was it ever possible that Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady were going to be better than Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. Never, ever.

[PowerGlove]

At no point was it ever possible that Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady were going to be better than Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. Never, ever.
You are going to tell me that there was no way that could have been possible?

What else are you so certain about?

[tpols]

I was just using his name as an example. Every player would be compelled to stat pad and play selfish if their next contract is based on their performance.

Read the paper.

Yes, there are bumps in performance in contract years, but the negatives that are associated with it are offset by the positives of not having a team of selfish players.
Yea but if players are ruining their team's in the process of the statpadding, they wont get a better contract. Teams are going to choose the most talented players that would fit with their current plans. I could see on some of the worst teams in the league this happening, but not at the top or midlevel as much. Making the contracts a little longer than that.. like 2 or 3 years, would probably be a better compromise though. That way teams could see if a player could keep up his performances as the team gels and adds new, better pieces.

[tpols]

You are going to tell me that there was no way that could have been possible?

What else are you so certain about?
Its probably true.. MJ was better than Vince ever could have been and TMac didn't compliment Vince nearly as well as Pippen complimented MJ.

[PowerGlove]

He's just so certain. "Never,ever". I just wanted to ask. Clearly it was just a typo but he was so confident in his opinion.

[Kurosawa0]

You are going to tell me that there was no way that could have been possible?

What else are you so certain about?

How is this remotely a debate? Look at their careers. Neither even came close to being on MJ or Scottie's level. Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady never had a chance of surpassing MJ and Scottie. Why? Because neither were good enough to do so.

Vince and T-Mac never had the potential to surpass even Wade & LeBron. They were all-stars, but never all-time greats and never remotely threatened to be so.

[PowerGlove]

How is this remotely a debate? Look at their careers. Neither even came close to being on MJ or Scottie's level. Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady never had a chance of surpassing MJ and Scottie. Why? Because neither were good enough to do so.

Vince and T-Mac never had the potential to surpass even Wade & LeBron. They were all-stars, but never all-time greats and never remotely threatened to be so.
:rolleyes:

[Kurosawa0]

:rolleyes:

Wade & LeBron have made the Finals already. Vince and T-Mac never played at that level and the East was much, much weaker back then.

[PowerGlove]

Wade & LeBron have made the Finals already. Vince and T-Mac never played at that level and the East was much, much weaker back then.
I dont want to derail the thread, but this is just dumb.

You dont judge potential by looking at the results. Production/=/Potential.

[Fatal9]

I have no ill will towards Vince, as an organization, we sucked. Ran his cousin out of town, a player who could have given us the greatest SG-SF combo in NBA history. Constantly put him on shitty teams, blew draft picks like crazy.
So the way to respond to management moves you don't like is to kill your trade value, stop giving effort despite the fact your are being paid 13 million a year. He was averaging 15.9 ppg on 41% for fukk's sake...in his prime and then he got traded and started putting up 30 a night again. Part of what made him difficult to trade was the fact that he killed off his trade value and screwed over the franchise. What did we end up getting, straight up garbage...Eric Williams, Aaron Williams and Alonzo Mourning who was not expected to report to the team :roll:

There is no defense for what he did and what so many players do by taking advantage of the security and length of NBA contracts to screw over teams.

[PowerGlove]

So the way to respond to management moves you don't like is to kill your trade value, stop giving effort despite the fact your are being paid 13 million a year. He was averaging 15.9 ppg on 41% for ***'s sake...in his prime and then he got traded and started putting up 30 a night again. Part of what made him difficult to trade was the fact that he killed off his trade value and screwed over the franchise. What did we end up getting, straight up garbage...Eric Williams, Aaron Williams and Alonzo Mourning who was not expected to report to the team :roll:

That's actually the perfect way to get one over on a franchise you hate. Its not the right way to handle the situation but its definitely a big f*ck you.

Like I said, I dont hate him for any of that. The franchise screwed him over multiple times.

I never did defend and how many players have done that exactly? Who are the "so many" you speak of?

[Kurosawa0]

I dont want to derail the thread, but this is just dumb.

You dont judge potential by looking at the results. Production/=/Potential.

You look back in terms of potential with what the actual production ended up as. We can look at both's careers and see that neither amounted to being close to LeBron, Wade, MJ or Pippen's level.

You can pull anything out of your ass if you want. Sure, you can say that somehow, magically, if Vince and T-Mac had stayed together they would've reached a level of play that was much, much higher than what they did separately.

The problem with that is that there's no evidence, remotely, to support that. Wade won a ring by himself in 2006. LeBron carried the Cavs to the Finals in 2007. MJ, at the very least, is one of the top 3 players ever. Scottie Pippen was a game away from making the Finals with the Blazers in 2000.

Vince Carter and T-Mac never came close to those heights. T-Mac has never made it out of the first round and Vince Carter's biggest playoff moment was blowing two free throws and assuring Boston a trip to the Finals in 2010.

This isn't debatable in reality. To think that Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady could've surpassed MJ and Scottie, Jerry West and Eligin Baylor, Wade & LeBron etc. is a conclusion drawn from no objective facts in existence.

[Fatal9]

That's actually the perfect way to get one over on a franchise you hate. Its not the right way to handle the situation but its definitely a big f*ck you.

Like I said, I dont hate him for any of that. The franchise screwed him over multiple times.

I never did defend and how many players have done that exactly? Who are the "so many" you speak of?

You have no idea what it means to be a professional. I'm not surprised to see you argue for the players so much if you somehow think what Vince did to a team paying him 13 million a year is justifiable.

[Derka]

Len Bias overdosed before even suiting up in a Celtics uniform, and to say his death screwed our team over would be quite the understatement.

[PowerGlove]

You have no idea what it means to be a professional. I'm not surprised to see you argue for the players so much if you somehow think what Vince did to a team paying him 13 million a year is justifiable.
Wow fatal, I clearly just said that it wasnt the right way to handle the situation but the perfect way to screw a team over that you hate.

Reading comprehension around here is at an all time low.

[PowerGlove]

You look back in terms of potential with what the actual production ended up as. We can look at both's careers and see that neither amounted to being close to LeBron, Wade, MJ or Pippen's level.

You can pull anything out of your ass if you want. Sure, you can say that somehow, magically, if Vince and T-Mac had stayed together they would've reached a level of play that was much, much higher than what they did separately.

The problem with that is that there's no evidence, remotely, to support that. Wade won a ring by himself in 2006. LeBron carried the Cavs to the Finals in 2007. MJ, at the very least, is one of the top 3 players ever. Scottie Pippen was a game away from making the Finals with the Blazers in 2000.

Vince Carter and T-Mac never came close to those heights. T-Mac has never made it out of the first round and Vince Carter's biggest playoff moment was blowing two free throws and assuring Boston a trip to the Finals in 2010.

This isn't debatable in reality. To think that Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady could've surpassed MJ and Scottie, Jerry West and Eligin Baylor, Wade & LeBron etc. is a conclusion drawn from no objective facts in existence.
Thanks for making it clear that you dont know what potential means.

Because whenever I think of potential, team accomplishments are the first thing that come to mind/sarcasm

[ukplayer4]

ron artest?


indy were looking like title favorites before the brawl, people forget that.

those jailblazer teams were stacked(before and after pippen) but most of them were assholes, even jr rider(who i loved as a player) is such a dick on the court. i was watching a game from 97 the other day- they were playing the suns. rider and kidd grew up together so everytime kidd scores jr waves the playoff, demands the ball calls clear out and go's one on one. dunleavy has to take some of the blame for allowing this to happen.

2000 should of been their title tho, up 15 with 10 minutes to go in the 4th of game 7, that was a very dark day, i was a huge fan of that team....

[swi7ch]

LBJ - greatest basketball player alive today but switches to spectator-mode in 4th quarters of championship games.

[Kurosawa0]

Thanks for making it clear that you dont know what potential means.

Because whenever I think of potential, team accomplishments are the first thing that come to mind/sarcasm

You said that they could've been the greatest shooting guard and small forward duo of all-time. The only way two players would reach that level is through championships... ie: team accomplishments. After all, those positions are configured within a team concept.

The simple fact of it all is that Tracy McGrady and Vince Carter never had the potential to be the greatest shooting guard and small forward duo because they weren't ever that good. We can look back at how their careers unfolded and see that the potential for it was never there because it wasn't in them.

Len Bias' potential can be debated because we never saw how good he would've become. We've seen it with T-Mac and Carter. At no point would they have ever been able to challenge for 6 championships.

Seriously, you're saying this without anything, remotely, to back it up. It's like saying that if Chris Paul and Tyson Chandler hadn't been broken up they'd be this generation's version of Magic and Kareem. There would be no reason to remotely think that, but hey? Who knows, right?

[ZenMaster]

Yea but if players are ruining their team's in the process of the statpadding, they wont get a better contract. Teams are going to choose the most talented players that would fit with their current plans. I could see on some of the worst teams in the league this happening, but not at the top or midlevel as much. Making the contracts a little longer than that.. like 2 or 3 years, would probably be a better compromise though. That way teams could see if a player could keep up his performances as the team gels and adds new, better pieces.

The guy you're arguing is so amazingly biased that you have no chance of getting your point across and discussing this. He will keep going back to "1 year non guaranteed contracts will make players more selfish" instead of even looking at a reasonable middle ground like you're proposing.

He also seems to think that GM's and coaches do nothing but look on paper sheets when evaluating players..

[LBJFTW]

im a cavs fan

Nothing more need be said. The list of players that have screwed over the Cavs is so extensive that it would take too long to compose.

[WillyJakk]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2005/07/05/2002354230.jpg

This is weird cause I like the guy, really, BUT I think he coulda did a lil' more in Seattle and I remember thinking he wasn't going all out due to his contract nearly being up but near the end of his time/ contract in Seattle he stepped up.

I always thought it was due to the "contract year".

I may be remembering it wrong, though.

Anyone else remember this scenario?

[Sarcastic]

The guy you're arguing is so amazingly biased that you have no chance of getting your point across and discussing this. He will keep going back to "1 year non guaranteed contracts will make players more selfish" instead of even looking at a reasonable middle ground like you're proposing.

He also seems to think that GM's and coaches do nothing but look on paper sheets when evaluating players..

I am actually not as biased as people think, but there is just so much hate for the players that if anyone defends them they are perceived as being biased.

I were as biased as you claim, I would say things like "players should get 100% and be free to change teams at their whim".

I am perfectly fine with the players making most of the concessions, which is what they did. But that wasn't enough for the NBA. The NBA was going for the jugular, and trying to take money and all the system issues as well. As many have said, they were "running up the score".

Even in the NHL work stoppage, the league made some concessions to the players just to make them feel good. They changed free agency rules for the players, and allowed them to become free agents at 27 or after 7 years of service in the league. Prior to that an NHL player could only become a free agent after 31 years old. The NBA made ZERO concessions to the players.

As far as 2 or 3 year contracts: it would have virtually the same effect that I have described. Either half your team or 1/4 of your team would be up for contract every year. The same selfish play would ensue.

Again, longer contracts benefit both sides. In fact, in the case of certain players, owners would LOVE to be able to offer even longer contracts than the league allows. If you told Dan Gilbert last year that he could offer Lebron a 10 year guaranteed contract, I am sure he would have done it in a heartbeat!!!

[AMISTILLILL]

:facepalm

How about you point by point go against what I'm saying and what the results found, instead scouring the article for possible inferences, suggestions and warnings that may support what you're saying (and passing those off as results).

Quit unconditionally supporting the players on everything, it's pathetic to see some of the arguments you're making on here. I almost feel like I'm being trolled here. Contract years players exist and exist much more in NBA compared to other sports. This is not arguable.

Productivity of players goes down significantly after they sign new contracts, fact. Productivity of players rises as contract renewal approaches, fact. And the study you posted (and every study done on this) finds this to be true. Most NBA fans don't even need studies to tell them this because they've followed the league and their teams closely enough to see this happen every year.

And incentive based contracts can be structured not only on individual performance but through a combination of team performance as well. Regardless, shorter and non-guaranteed contracts would be the cure to this problem. I'm NOT for non-guaranteed contracts because I do believe that players overall deserve some level of security (but maybe more team options though, but in a way that protects the player in case of legitimate injuries during the duration of the contract). Shorter contract lengths will be part of the cure to this problem. The owners are absolutely right in demanding them, maybe there would be more sympathy for the players had they not taken advantage by duping teams like this.

You're arguing with a troll, just sayin'.

[Sarcastic]

You're arguing with a troll, just sayin'.

Your comment makes you a troll more so than someone who disagrees with an opinion.

[Blue&Orange]

I were as biased as you claim, I would say things like "players should get 100% and be free to change teams at their whim"

That wouldn't be being biased that would be being mentally challenged. :hammerhead:

[magnax1]

Ostertag coming in out of shape in 98 is the first thing that comes to mind. He was a big part of the team in 97, and while he still played good defense and rebounded extremely well in 98 he went from a capable offensive player to one of the worst offensive pieces on the team from 97 to 98.
Overall though, there haven't been a lot of really unprofessional guys on the Jazz. I think the organization has gone out of its way to not sign guys like that no matter their level of play. The bigger problem has been key pieces like Donyell Marshall and Raja Bell just not wanting to play there after their contracts were up (and likely Deron Williams too since that seems like why he was traded)

[AMISTILLILL]

Your comment makes you a troll more so than someone who disagrees with an opinion.

Yeah, letting somebody know that their argument is hopeless because you're a delusional weirdo is definitely trollish. :facepalm

[Kevin_Gamble]

I will never forgive Antoine Walker for ruining Pierce's prime.

[PowerGlove]

You said that they could've been the greatest shooting guard and small forward duo of all-time. The only way two players would reach that level is through championships... ie: team accomplishments. After all, those positions are configured within a team concept.

The simple fact of it all is that Tracy McGrady and Vince Carter never had the potential to be the greatest shooting guard and small forward duo because they weren't ever that good. We can look back at how their careers unfolded and see that the potential for it was never there because it wasn't in them.

Len Bias' potential can be debated because we never saw how good he would've become. We've seen it with T-Mac and Carter. At no point would they have ever been able to challenge for 6 championships.

Seriously, you're saying this without anything, remotely, to back it up. It's like saying that if Chris Paul and Tyson Chandler hadn't been broken up they'd be this generation's version of Magic and Kareem. There would be no reason to remotely think that, but hey? Who knows, right?
:oldlol:

[ZenMaster]

I am actually not as biased as people think, but there is just so much hate for the players that if anyone defends them they are perceived as being biased.

I were as biased as you claim, I would say things like "players should get 100% and be free to change teams at their whim".

I am perfectly fine with the players making most of the concessions, which is what they did. But that wasn't enough for the NBA. The NBA was going for the jugular, and trying to take money and all the system issues as well. As many have said, they were "running up the score".

Even in the NHL work stoppage, the league made some concessions to the players just to make them feel good. They changed free agency rules for the players, and allowed them to become free agents at 27 or after 7 years of service in the league. Prior to that an NHL player could only become a free agent after 31 years old. The NBA made ZERO concessions to the players.

As far as 2 or 3 year contracts: it would have virtually the same effect that I have described. Either half your team or 1/4 of your team would be up for contract every year. The same selfish play would ensue.

Again, longer contracts benefit both sides. In fact, in the case of certain players, owners would LOVE to be able to offer even longer contracts than the league allows. If you told Dan Gilbert last year that he could offer Lebron a 10 year guaranteed contract, I am sure he would have done it in a heartbeat!!!


Look if you're not satisfied with how your player is playing, contract year or no contract year you bench him and tell him why. As it is now a lot of players in their contract year play harder, and not necessarily more selfish in a way that is hurtful to the team.

It's just not one or the other, there are also players now who play just as hard in their contract year as they do in other years. Just like some would play more selfish and others wouldn't. The difference is that if you have a guy who's playing selfish at the end of his contract you can bench him easier than if you have a guy playing lazy in the start of a 5 year deal.
It's also about players sitting out games because they're secured in their deal, like Baron Davis who all of the sudden felt like playing 82 in his contract year. It's about players being overweight and not caring because the money is still rolling in.


Concerning you bias I can't forget about that gross vs net argument you made. Like the other poster said, it's impossible for anyone to be more biased.

[Sarcastic]

That wouldn't be being biased that would be being mentally challenged. :hammerhead:

No more mentally challenged than people who compare playing in the NBA to their normal jobs for $40,000, or even say they should play for free.

[WillyJakk]

I will never forgive Antoine Walker for ruining Pierce's prime.

I cannot approve this message.

Antoine Walker was a beast early in his career and clearly he had a hard time adjusting to playing w/ another ball dominant player in P2 who was destined to replace him as being the face of the franchise.

Kinda hard to go from being the man to the being the man sittin next to the man :confusedshrug:.

Check the numbers for yourself:

Walker: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/walkean02.html
Pierce: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01.html

Walker was chuckin' trying to prove he was the alpha male of the team while Pierce clearly was a superior player w/ an alpha male mentality, too.

They didn't have the best talent around them either.

Can't put that on 'Toine.

[Kevin_Gamble]

I cannot approve this message.

Walker was chuckin' trying to prove he was the alpha male of the team while Pierce clearly was a superior player w/ an alpha male mentality, too.

They didn't have the best talent around them either.

Can't put that on 'Toine.

It's not on Walker, I agree, but it always burned me up to watch the Celtics play during those dark years and see him completely forget how dominant he could be as an inside scorer and chuck 3s. Terrible times.

[ZenMaster]

I cannot approve this message.

Antoine Walker was a beast early in his career and clearly he had a hard time adjusting to playing w/ another ball dominant player in P2 who was destined to replace him as being the face of the franchise.

Kinda hard to go from being the man to the being the man sittin next to the man :confusedshrug:.

Check the numbers for yourself:

Walker: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/walkean02.html
Pierce: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01.html

Walker was chuckin' trying to prove he was the alpha male of the team while Pierce clearly was a superior player w/ an alpha male mentality, too.

They didn't have the best talent around them either.

Can't put that on 'Toine.

Yeah you're in trouble when your main focus is to try and beat your teammate. Horrible attitude which is his own fault no?

[WillyJakk]

Yeah you're in trouble when your main focus is to try and beat your teammate. Horrible attitude which is his own fault no?

I attribute this more to his age (I think 22-23 at the time) instead of him having a horrible attitude.

He truthfully didn't seem like a "bad teammate" per se, just made "bad" decisions on court (and off sometimes) but he didn't appear to have it in for Pierce or prove he was the "man" in a bad way.

He just took bad bad shots which was always a part of his game, he could just get away w/ it more when he was the main scorer.

[ZenMaster]

I attribute this more to his age (I think 22-23 at the time) instead of him having a horrible attitude.

He truthfully didn't seem like a "bad teammate" per se, just made "bad" decisions on court (and off sometimes) but he didn't appear to have it in for Pierce or prove he was the "man" in a bad way.

He just took bad bad shots which was always a part of his game, he could just get away w/ it more when he was the main scorer.

Isn't taking bad shots trying to prove you're the man a bad way of doing it?

[triangleoffense]

Hate to go here.. but Shaquille O'Neal did everything he could to undermine who he liked to call "Boy Wonder" and as much as people like to repudiate this he did show up to the 03 and 04 training camp sessions overweight. I'm not saying this is a cardinal sin because a lot of big men like to use the preseason and parts of the regular season to play themselves into shape but he acted as though "Boy Wonder" was throwing out some boldfaced lie just to slight him.

As much as Shaq acted like the good cop in LA he was just as responsible if not more for the feud that went on and this increasing became evident the years preceding the end of his contract. He thought that by alienating Kobe from the team it would give him bargaining power but what it really did was create a wedge in that locker room because contrary to public opinion there were several (including veteran) players who sided with Kobe, including Jerry West and the Buss ownership brain-trust. This is all not to mention that Shaq demanded 30 million per year for at least 3 years, something the Lakers knew they could not do. What's even more enraging is that Shaq ended up signing with the Heat for basically less than what the Lakers were offering at 20mil per year for the next 3 years guaranteed and the media makes him out to be some modern-day Mother Theresa who is taking some massive pay-cut.

So yea.. had to be said.

[Jasper]

Bucks : not an unprofessional player (A COACH)

Skiles -

Letting Jennings for the last 2 years to take shoots while 44% shooters sit camped on the wing waiting for a pass that will never happen , unless Jennings gets trapped with 3 seconds left on the shot clock.

Skiles was a PG , first option pass .... can't teach the same fundamentals :facepalm

[Kurosawa0]

:oldlol:

I accept your admission of defeat. :applause:

[Sarcastic]

Look if you're not satisfied with how your player is playing, contract year or no contract year you bench him and tell him why. As it is now a lot of players in their contract year play harder, and not necessarily more selfish in a way that is hurtful to the team.

It's just not one or the other, there are also players now who play just as hard in their contract year as they do in other years. Just like some would play more selfish and others wouldn't. The difference is that if you have a guy who's playing selfish at the end of his contract you can bench him easier than if you have a guy playing lazy in the start of a 5 year deal.
It's also about players sitting out games because they're secured in their deal, like Baron Davis who all of the sudden felt like playing 82 in his contract year. It's about players being overweight and not caring because the money is still rolling in.


Concerning you bias I can't forget about that gross vs net argument you made. Like the other poster said, it's impossible for anyone to be more biased.


How many players do you think would ever dive for a ball, or do something that may injure themselves if they are always playing for new contracts?

[ZenMaster]

How many players do you think would ever dive for a ball, or do something that may injure themselves if they are always playing for new contracts?

It depends on if that player wants a new contract that's based on him playing and contributing, or if it should be based on him sitting on the bench.

Teams will sign good players if they play hard, injured or not.

Also if the guaranteed contracts where no longer than 3 years they wouldn't always be playing for a new contract.

[stephanieg]

Everyone knows about Artest going into the crowd and ruining the season + Reggie's last chance at a title, maybe they know about Stephen Jackson shooting a gun in the parking lot of a strip club (Bill Simmons used to joke about it a lot). But not many outside of Indy seem to remember Tinsley and his crew being in a car chase right out of a movie. A guy was shooting at them with an assault rifle. I don't know why that wasn't a bigger story. But seriously...something that ****ed up could only happen to dumbasses like Tinsley and Capt Jack.

[Meticode]

We could start with Larry Hughes...
No you can't Larry Hughes' downfall is the way the Cavaliers used him. It was evident the first few weeks they played together with LeBron how much getting Larry Hughes was going to fail.

[Sarcastic]

No you can't Larry Hughes' downfall is the way the Cavaliers used him. It was evident the first few weeks they played together with LeBron how much getting Larry Hughes was going to fail.

Which is exactly why using stats as a basis for determining effort is misleading.

Hell, all of the Miami cHeat saw their stats go down last year after getting their new contracts. Do you think the reason was lack of effort, or more to do with lack of chemistry?

[PistonsFan#21]

My team: Detroit Pistons

Player that screwed us: Allen '' i wanna be the main guy" Iverson
i dont think this needs any explanation. This is the point from where he went downhill

[InspiredLebowski]

Everyone knows about Artest going into the crowd and ruining the season + Reggie's last chance at a title, maybe they know about Stephen Jackson shooting a gun in the parking lot of a strip club (Bill Simmons used to joke about it a lot). But not many outside of Indy seem to remember Tinsley and his crew being in a car chase right out of a movie. A guy was shooting at them with an assault rifle. I don't know why that wasn't a bigger story. But seriously...something that ****ed up could only happen to dumbasses like Tinsley and Capt Jack.That's Indy's fault though. If he'd gotten in a blocks long mobile shootout with automatic weapons in a major market it barely would have made the news. Just ask Jamaal.

[longtime lurker]

You guys make me laugh. If a guy is overpaid to begin with, what do you expect when he doesn't live up to the contract?