Even as a fan for well over 2 decades I still must say..I dont think the NBA owes me.

[Kblaze8855]

As I often do....I find myself very much against public opinion on this one. But I have like 2 hours with nothing to do but eat lunch and watch tv so....**** it. Rambling time.

Fans are pissed about no season. Mad at rich players and even richer owners. Players and owners alike have their publicist approved comments lined about to appease simple minded fans who actually believe such comments.

But really...you know they dont care right? Of course you do. Most of you at least. Even the players with good attachments to their fanbases...the fans arent the issue. They sure as hell arent to the owners.

And really I dont see why they should be.

There is the ever present "Without us...they would be ____! We make all this possible!" way to look at it. But really...think about it....

Doesnt the public make every rich person rich? The money always comes from those who want or need the product or service they offer. be it NBA players rich off basketball owners rich off cruise lines and computers or...walmart. Whatever.

Rich peopel get rich off many people wanting what they offer. But does that really mean they owe us for deciding that they ask a fair price and us paying it to enjoy ourselves?

Do roller coaster engineers just...owe the people at disneyworld?

Does the mcdonalds board owe people who like burgers and kids who want a toy?

How does someone owe you...for you wanting what they sell?

Besides....how many players and owners do you think provide less than a standard fan?

Ive been a fan for many years. Ive been to Bulls, Hornets, Hawks, Wizards and Magic games live. Bulls many many many times. Hornets 20-30. Hawks about that. Wizards maybe 15-20. Couple magic games back in the 90s. I watch shows about the NBA. I have NBA tv and all. Ive had league pass and collected cards and bought home videos and all.

Fine.

Even ignoring the fact that I decided of my own free will to do these things....

Am I to believe the owners and players arent big enough fans to have done the same?

Mark Cuban has been a sports fan a long time. I suspect hes spent more than I have supporting the NBA even before he was an owner. How many players used to watch the games? How many still do?

What if I watch and contribute to ratings that means they need to consider how I feel....but when players and owners watch it doesnt count?

When players like Bogut but 100 tickets for his fan section its not paying for the NBA? My 80 bucks count but his thousands dont?

All those jerseys and shoes players buy over the years...thats not going into the pool?

The players and owners ARE fans.

And not only that...they are fans other fans tend to hate on.

Forget cases like Lebron....Grant hill. Captian America in basketball form....got booed and hated in Michigan for going to Orlando. Shaq got booed for like 10 years for leaving Orlando. Fans throw beer at players. Some fan heckled Vernon Maxwell about his little baby girl who passed away. We have rude disrespectful idiots as fans. Probably more than we have bright eyed innocent little kids who just want to see Kobe dunk.

The fans are you and me. The fans are *****....who at the drop of a dime will hate anyone not on their team....at times boo people who are on it...contribute less to the leagues success on average than the players do and far less than owners.

But...they need ot be thinking about us while they conduct business?

Who EVER thinks about the public when business is done?

When there is a strike or lockout or anything...its always selfish on every side. Especially these days in America when workers have so many rights. This isnt 1908. We dont have 6 year old losing rms working 14 hour days in coal mines as a normal thing.

People who are getting by(sometimes by a little...usually by a lot) decide they want more and the people who usually recieve their product can go **** themselves. Writer strike....they dont give a **** if you wanna see your favorite show and your fanhood of it pays them.

When you watch guys jerseys burn, people wish injury on people, fans who know nothing about the situation calling Kobe a rapist, drunken idiots chanting nonsense, and beers flying, and fans shooting up parking lots and all...

How do you come out of it saying the fans and owners need to think more about us?

What do we actually do...for them...that they dont do for themselves?

Buy tickets? No. They probably buy more on average than mostindividual fans. Watch games? Nope. They do too.

Buy things that are NBA related? Same. They have kids who love the NBA with jerseys and shoes and cups and all. Their kids have NBA 2k too.

Having thought it out...I think im done being mad at either side.

I want them to play. But I dont see why they should care what I want.

Not more than what they want. I sure dont care more about them than I do about me.

Being richer means they should be less selfish?

Is that supposed to be the real world?

Fans can cry that they are the ones being screwed....but really. Isnt it always the public who loses during a labor battle?

But in this case....sports? I think athletes and owners might provide more of their own money than most other labor situations.

The owners are the ones paying for lunch for guys they already give millions to. The players are the ones who were us...but for the most part worked harder to get where they are than we were willing to(dont think there are only 400 tall athletic people out there....it takes a lot more).

Both sides provide endless entertainment at virtually no cost for people who dont go to games live....

But they owe even more? because we willingly give them money for a service we find fairly priced?

Nah.

And im sure in private they say the same thing. But if they said it in public there would be outrage. People cant handle real talk and honesty but dont wanna hear bullshit fed to them either.

I dont envy the publicists in this fight.

Really...I hate that there is even a need for such people. THe public is full of overly emotional soft types who cant look at themselves before hating on someone else.

I think im gonna give both sides a break and stop complaining. I ot 20 years of something for next to nothing. And if I were on either side id be holding out for more too.

They are just people. Prone to selfish acts.

Just like us.

And I think im ready to stop being pissed off and just....watch something else till it works out. I'll be happy when they get it sorted out and wish both sides the best.

But I suspect I may be nearly alone in that...

Hate is very popular when people feel wronged. And im not sure I can justify feeling wronged when I think about it.



Annoyed people who skimmed it...let me get a funny "Did not read" picture. Ive not seen a good one in months and I try nto to take myself too serious.

[GOBB]

I tried reading it all but was interuptted by....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NyFC2DKWJM

[The Macho Man]

I agree.

[Kblaze8855]

I never watched the first series much but my star trek knowledge borders on creepy. Im a man of many many interests and i dont halfass much

[SpecialQue]

I never watched the first series much but my star trek knowledge borders on creepy. Im a man of many many interests and i dont halfass much

Picard = GOAT Captain.

However, Spock >>>>>>> Data, and it ain't even close.

[Kblaze8855]

Picard may well be the GOAT but I wouldnt trade Sisko during the Dominion war for Picard in his prime. Picard is a peace time captian.

[triangleoffense]

I'm not really sure at what your getting at in the OP but I think your trying to imply that everything is a fair price because of the "free market" and that business owners are allowed to charge whatever they want because they own the means of production for the said product. This is inherently untrue in our current model of economics because of the various bi-laws of the legal and business systems. J

ust because somebody (or some entity) owns the means of production doesn't mean that whatever price he chooses to put on it is a fair and legit price. Many variables have to be taken into account such as the level of competition, manufacturing cost, distribution costs, etc. The first such variable, level of competition is exactly why the players have just cause atm to file an anti-trust lawsuit, which is giving them huge bargaining power at the negotiating table. Your making it sound unfair business practices do not exist when in reality it is the norm of certain industries to engage in such practices.

To further illustrate my point take this example into account: I am a writer, I write a book and want to sell, produce and distribute my book so I can make money. I find to my dismay that a certain publishing house has cornered the market, thus creating a monopoly along with its other subsidiary companies, forcing any credible author that wants to do business into using its publishing brand to sell his own books. This publishing house also has a stipulation that any emerging writer gets a mere 1 cent on the dollar for every copy of his book sold. Would this practice exactly be "deciding that they ask a fair price and us paying it to enjoy ourselves"? Also take in mind that this scenario also happens to be the norm for virtually every industry on the market today.

[Kblaze8855]

My point wasnt that any price is a fair price....
my point was that im not sure fans consider the fact that the owners and players probably contribute more to the success of the league they say they support than most of them do.


But yes I would say a price one is willing to pay must be fair. If it isnt fair...why pay it?

A good profit margin doesnt make your product too expensive if the people who buy it dont mind paying your asking price.

[triangleoffense]

My point wasnt that any price is a fair price....
my point was that im not sure fans consider the fact that the owners and players probably contribute more to the success of the league they say they support than most of them do.


But yes I would say a price one is willing to pay must be fair. If it isnt fair...why pay it?

A good profit margin doesnt make your product too expensive if the people who buy it dont mind paying your asking price.
So you think that even though the NBA has a monopoly on professional basketball that the price they ask to pay for tickets and merchandise is fair? Keep in mind the average price for an "authentic" NBA jersey is 59.99.

http://store.nba.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4055669&cp=1400498

[Bernie Nips]

Best thread of the lockout so far. Someone who isn't trying to see it from either side's perspective, but just stepping back and looking at the whole picture.

[Kblaze8855]

When I go to a game the ticket price is the last thing I notice. If anything is unfair its the price of parking and concessions. They take advantage there. But so does everyone when they know you have no choice. Last time I was at disneyworld a sprite was 4 dollars and that was probably 1997.

Far as a jersey? What do I know about what the NBA paid to have it created? I dont know the profit margins. Im sure the material doesnt cost but actually putting it together? I dont think the NBA is likely to own its own sweatshops. The people really getting over are probably the ones paying kids a dollar an hour to make the products.

[bdreason]

Like Spidermans dying Uncle said, "with great power, comes great responsibility."




:confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

Yea but when America tries to police the world they hate us for it.

Uncle Ben should have told Peter to mind his own business. Someone else can save the city. Like 900 superheroes are in New York already.

He could have settled down with Mary Jane without her almost being killed 88 times first.

[Smoke117]

Just gives me more time to drink.

[Kblaze8855]

Find a Suns vs Warriors game from like 2008 on youtube. Take a shot every time someone takes a questionable 3 in transition.

Report back on the results if you live.

[hammer2010]

Except they have tied their team's identity to a City's name, and it's tax payers. Not to mention most arenas are built by tax payers, most of the security provided is through tax payer money. Yet with millions of tax payer money tied to professional teams and their well-being economically, they still don't owe us anything. F*UCK THAT! Tell me to invest money in anything else and then say you don't owe me anything.

[Kblaze8855]

Nba players and owners no doubt contribute more to the tax base than average fans. Again it seems we seperate them from the public they are part of.

I find it annoying for billionaires to ask a city to pay for an arena but thats a whole other issue. I have no doubt they bring in vast sums of money to a community which is why they pay for them to begin with. Im sure the city runs the numbers in advance.

I read that lebron alone generated like 130 million a year in cleveland. Resturants not sure they can keep theirs doors open without the people flooding out of games into their bars.

Big picture things to consider.

I bet mark cuban spends more on taxes than plenty of neighborhoods generate in a year.

[Jasper]

I agree it's OUR league and MY team symdrome :lol

Dallas Cowboys owner : " I wish I won ever year a championship , but the thrill to work hard each year no matter what money is involved is the competitive drive I love "

Do all NBA owners have the competitive drive for their franchise :confusedshrug:

If they don't - they don't deserve a franchise from my fan perspective.

[chips93]

Except they have tied their team's identity to a City's name, and it's tax payers. Not to mention most arenas are built by tax payers, most of the security provided is through tax payer money. Yet with millions of tax payer money tied to professional teams and their well-being economically, they still don't owe us anything. F*UCK THAT! Tell me to invest money in anything else and then say you don't owe me anything.

local governments dont build arenas as favors to the league. they build them in the hope that the city will get a return in the form of more money being spent in ameneties around the arenas, in restraunts and the like. cities build arenas to get something back themselves, not for the basketball

[tpols]

Being richer means they should be less selfish?

Yes.

Most rich people and people that are extremely well off in life like a lot of NBA players and owners should feel fortunate enough in their lives that they should want to give back to those who are less fortunate than they are.

If you look at all these owners and players, a lot of them either came into money, got somewhat lucky in the business world with whatever they were doing, or had the genetics to become a 6'8 black man. They are in the top 1% for people to have been born straight privelaged.. at least in those categories. The fact that they made it that high is blessing in itself and they should gain an extra sense of humbleness and realize what was granted to them wasn't granted to many other people.. even those that may have started off just like them.

[Kblaze8855]

Yea...i dont think local government is the place to find the selfless. They get something in return.

[Kblaze8855]

Yes.

Most rich people and people that are extremely well off in life like a lot of NBA players and owners should feel fortunate enough in their lives that they should want to give back to those who are less fortunate than they are.

If you look at all these owners and players, a lot of them either came into money, got somewhat lucky in the business world with whatever they were doing, or had the genetics to become a 6'8 black man. They are in the top 1% for people to have been born straight privelaged.. at least in those categories. The fact that they made it that high is blessing in itself and they should gain an extra sense of humbleness and realize what was granted to them wasn't granted to many other people.. even those that may have started off just like them.

And people born in america and canada and other first world countries should appreciate the massive advantages they get from that. But we dont. we have life good enough that we can spend hours arguing over basketball online. We arent making a dollar a day and hoping to make it through the dry season. But we dont take our gifts and be selfless and devote our insane amount of free time to helping others.

We get onion rings and complain that one of our 500 sources of e ntertainment is on a break.

Not knowing how good you have it is a near universal symptom of being an american. Im not mad it extends up the ladder. I was mad 2k 12 didnt have a crew mode. We are a petty people.

[hammer2010]

Nba players and owners no doubt contribute more to the tax base than average fans. Again it seems we seperate them from the public they are part of.

I find it annoying for billionaires to ask a city to pay for an arena but thats a whole other issue. I have no doubt they bring in vast sums of money to a community which is why they pay for them to begin with. Im sure the city runs the numbers in advance.

I read that lebron alone generated like 130 million a year in cleveland. Resturants not sure they can keep theirs doors open without the people flooding out of games into their bars.

Big picture things to consider.

I bet mark cuban spends more on taxes than plenty of neighborhoods generate in a year.

The point is that tax payers directly fund parts of their business. If I run a business and hire 1000 people with well paying jobs and my business helps progress the economy of that area. Should the tax payers build the building that my company operates in?

Doesn't make sense does it?

How much you pay in taxes reflects how much you benefit from society as a whole. GTFO with the whole 'they pay more taxes so they should get better treatment' bit.

[Kblaze8855]

Again i have to ask.....if its so unreasonable to ask a city to pay why have like 20 cities done so? Talk about all the right and wrong you want. A gang of accountants economists and such for these cities look over the requests and the likely benefits then pay the money. Dont act like they sneak under a mattress and take it. You dont think its right....tell the hundreds of people deciding to ok it after months of research.


And once more......taxpayers pay. Owners and players pay taxes. More than i do thats for sure.

They are the taxpayers like everyone else. Only they pay much more of it. Its not them and taxpayers. Its just...taxpayers.

[hammer2010]

Again i have to ask.....if its so unreasonable to ask a city to pay why have like 20 cities done so? Talk about all the right and wrong you want. A gang of accountants and such for these cities look over the requests and the likely benefits then pay the money. Dont act like they sneak under a mattress and take it. You dont think its right....tell the hundreds of people deciding to ok it after months of research.

I agree with you that they bring economic activity in an area, but to say they owe the fans and the tax payers nothing is bullsh*t. I don't agree with taxpayers paying for arenas but that's my view. Every business owes it's success to their customers. Do you think people would care about the NBA if the owners and players came out and said outright that they owe the fans nothing?

They are nothing without the fans and gift-wrapped billion dollar state of the art arenas courtesy of tax payers. If they promise economic activity in return for tax payer's money then they better f*ckin provide it.

[Derrick]

tldr, but uve been a fan since before i was born, u old af bro :lol

[Kblaze8855]

I agree with you that they bring economic activity in an area, but to say they owe the fans and the tax payers nothing is bullsh*t. I don't agree with taxpayers paying for arenas but that's my view. Every business owes it's success to their customers. Do you think people would care about the NBA if the owners and players came out and said outright that they owe the fans nothing?

Course not. Because people are stupid and dont want the truth. They want to be told what they wanna hear. You think a president can win if he openly says hes not sure god exists? Or that he doesnt like black people and jews? But do you think there has not been a racist president in the last 30 years? Or one who questioned god or isnt really christian but just says so? You think that if a politician said the war on drugs cant be won and is wasting billions to arrest small time dealers who wont make a real difference other politicians wouldnt shred him? That mean it isnt true?

The truth has no place in public opinion matters. The public likes pretty lies more than ugly truths.

Lying to the public about how you really feel is a key part of public life because people dont want to support the honest. They support those who make them feel comfortable.

If the truth and how people really felt and operated were acceptable to the public we wouldnt need agencies that exist just to shape public perception of the famous.

The truth must be hidden because people are childish idiots who dont want the boat rocked.



They are nothing without the fans and gift-wrapped billion dollar state of the art arenas courtesy of tax payers. If they promise economic activity in return for tax payer's money then they better f*ckin provide it.

They ARE the taxpayers. A guy who makes the average american yearly pay(like 30 thousand?) wont pay as much in taxes in his life as some of these guys do in a year. Or a week depending on what they buy. So your seperation between them and "the taxpayers" just isnt reasonable.

They are tax paying americans themselves. Tax paying americans who pay most of the money you are giving credit to the less wealthy for paying.

I dont have a problem with the rich having to pay the most in taxes. Its fair to me. But we cant act like they arent paying it and poor people are the ones whos tax dollars are being spent.

Everyone is taxed. Including the people you keep saying are taking tax payer money. Only they pay a lot more of the money you are upset they benefit from.

[Dizzle-2k7]

incase you didnt know, FANS pay these players salaries.

so yea, they OWE us. nobody worships their athletes quite like Basketball fans.. its something about being able to pick up a ball on any given day and pretend youre Kemp dunking , or Jordan hitting a gamewinner ,or Magic giving a no look.

you got millionaires refusing a 50/50 split? :banghead: :banghead:

Jordan got paid like 800,000 a year . You got scrubs like Fisher, getting paid millions, and acting straight juvenile.

OWNERS FTW

[Dizzle-2k7]

They are the taxpayers like everyone else. Only they pay much more of it. Its not them and taxpayers. Its just...taxpayers.

You know the United States has a regressive tax system, right?

:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[tpols]

And people born in america and canada and other first world countries should appreciate the massive advantages they get from that. But we dont. we have life good enough that we can spend hours arguing over basketball online. We arent making a dollar a day and hoping to make it through the dry season. But we dont take our gifts and be selfless and devote our insane amount of free time to helping others.

We get onion rings and complain that one of our 500 sources of e ntertainment is on a break.

Not knowing how good you have it is a near universal symptom of being an american. Im not mad it extends up the ladder. I was mad 2k 12 didnt have a crew mode. We are a petty people.
We as americans dont give enough back in a lot of ways but we also dont have near the money or means like they do to make a difference. We can give what.. a couple thousand dollars a year to charity as grown adults.. me as a student I have 50 dollars in my savings account and thousands in debt. How am I supposed to help others in a less fortunate position than me? I do community service right now and I did it in HS. Other than that I cant really contribute much more. I may be very well of in the world but I dont have the means to help a lot of the people below me.

These guys on the other hand, have the time, resources, money, and power to influence people and make a difference in a way I cannot no matter how comfortably Imaybe living. A lot of them are role models to future generations growing up. They hold a lot more responsiblity than I do.. it's a big difference. The morals are the same but the opportunity to make a difference isnt even close.

[Kblaze8855]

incase you didnt know, FANS pay these players salaries.

so yea, they OWE us.

The public pays everyones salary. Doesnt mean everyone owes the public.

Players get fans money fans work at companies kept afloat by consumers many of them no doubt people they support themselves by buying the products those people depend on.

Circle of life isnt just a Lion King concept.

Its all us. Not us vs them.

And as I said....most players and owners probably spend more than average fans do on the NBA and NBA related things.

Ive not been to an NBA game this year. But Derrick Rose owes me money for watching on TV just like he does when hes not playing?

Nobody owes anyone anything in exchange for them having a desire for the service they provide. All you have to do is not support it. But you do. you enjoy(often for free) what they work to provide you. You are owed nothing.


nobody worships their athletes quite like Basketball fans.. its something about being able to pick up a ball on any given day and pretend youre Kemp dunking , or Jordan hitting a gamewinner ,or Magic giving a no look.

you got millionaires refusing a 50/50 split?

And billionaires refusing a 53/47 one. It happens.


Jordan got paid like 800,000 a year . You got scrubs like Fisher, getting paid millions, and acting straight juvenile.

OWNERS FTW

Jordan himself fought for the right for those players to make the money they do. Not the best example. If he followed his own advice he would sell his team to someone who can afford to operate it under a 57% split which is actually LESS than he wanted the players to get.

[Kblaze8855]

We as americans dont give enough back in a lot of ways but we also dont have near the money or means like they do to make a difference. We can give what.. a couple thousand dollars a year to charity as grown adults.. me as a student I have 50 dollars in my savings account and thousands in debt. How am I supposed to help others in a less fortunate position than me? I do community service right now and I did it in HS. Other than that I cant really contribute much more. I may be very well of in the world but I dont have the means to help a lot of the people below me.

These guys on the other hand, have the time, resources, money, and power to influence people and make a difference in a way I cannot no matter how comfortably Imaybe living. A lot of them are role models to future generations growing up. They hold a lot more responsiblity than I do.. it's a big difference. The morals are the same but the opportunity to make a difference isnt even close.


We all have enough to change lives. I could probably buy insect netting for 10 bucks that might save 3-4 lives in parts of the world infected with malaria. And while its a nice idea.....im probably not gonna do it. Not because im evil. But because I...have other things going on.

Ive done charity. still do. Im quick to help someone worse off. But I dont do all Ican. At all. Few do. ANd im not gonna hate on others for it like im sitting aside all my extra to send rice to flood victims. My xbox cost more than the average yearly income of a couple countries....


And most rich people do make a difference. At least NBa player/owner rich. You know how many people are on these guys to give? I remember Barkley said he would tell rookies the first words to learn is "No". this world tries to bleed newly rich people dry. Family and friends are the reason many of these guys go broke so fast without a check coming in. Formerly broke people are quick to try to make everyone who struggled with them better off. It happens with lottery winners too.

These guys get rich...the whole family is rich. I remember Shammond Williams little brother getting a Benz and he barely made the NBA.

They dont know shit about money for the most part. But the yare hosting Katrina charity games, building playgrounds, and churchs, and community centers, and hospitals in africa, and donating halls to schools and setting up funds, and grants, and so on.

That money goes out. Few are just sitting on 100 million if they made 100 million. Wherever it goes....even blown on garbage...that money is going back out into the world.

[tpols]

We all have enough to change lives. I could probably buy insect netting for 10 bucks that might save 3-4 lives in parts of the world infected with malaria. And while its a nice idea.....im probably not gonna do it. Not because im evil. But because I...have other things going on.

Ive done charity. still do. Im quick to help someone worse off. But I dont do all Ican. At all. Few do. ANd im not gonna hate on others for it like im sitting aside all my extra to send rice to flood victims. My xbox cost more than the average yearly income of a couple countries....


And most rich people do make a difference. At least NBa player/owner rich. You know how many people are on these guys to give? I remember Barkley said he would tell rookies the first words to learn is "No". this world tries to bleed newly rich people dry. Family and friends are the reason many of these guys go broke so fast without a check coming in. Formerly broke people are quick to try to make everyone who struggled with them better off. It happens with lottery winners too.

These guys get rich...the whole family is rich. I remember Shammond Williams little brother getting a Benz and he barely made the NBA.

They dont know shit about money for the most part. But the yare hosting Katrina charity games, building playgrounds, and churchs, and community centers, and hospitals in africa, and donating halls to schools and setting up funds, and grants, and so on.

That money goes out. Few are just sitting on 100 million if they made 100 million. Wherever it goes....even blown on garbage...that money is going back out into the world.
And how are you going to get that insect netting to Africa? You cant set up a charity.. you cant provide the means to help others.. unless you want to devote a huge part of your life to it, which, for a lot of americans, wouldn't be completely possible since most have full time jobs. You can do it through other people that have more means than you. And those people either have to be rich, or they have to devote their whole lives to it. The thing is NBA players can get it done without devoting their whole lives to it, and they can usually draw a lot more support because their names draw crowds.

The point is NBA players can make a huge impact without giving up many of their possesions. I'm talking about the big names here.. not 500000k a year bench players.

[The Macho Man]

incase you didnt know, FANS pay these players salaries.



And they currently aren't receiving any salary.

And the players create the fans in the first place.

[Kblaze8855]

Little busy right now but i wanted to answer something you said....

How to donate? Id google donate mosquito nets and do it with 10 dollars on one of the sites setup to do it. Its easy. But people still dont do it. We only care enough to point out that others dont care enough.

[Kblaze8855]

For the record......im sending the net money. Ill show a screenshot of the confirmation page. Perhaps we can band together in this topic and show if we really do care about the less fortunate.

[ConanRulesNBC]

The only reason these people have jobs is because the fans are willing to pay to watch it. So yes, the players and owners do owe the fans.

[tpols]

For the record......im sending the net money. Ill show a screenshot of the confirmation page. Perhaps we can band together in this topic and show if we really do care about the less fortunate.
Damn man.. wish I had a credit or debit card. This is what I'm talking about.

[Kblaze8855]

The only reason these people have jobs is because the fans are willing to pay to watch it. So yes, the players and owners do owe the fans.

And only reason anyone has a job is people willing to pay for whatever their job offers(a product...or a service). Doesnt mean everyone owes everyone else. It means people buy and sell...the sellers dont owe the buyers for paying for what they want.

[blacknapalm]

we should just all agree the dr dre owes us detox

[Kblaze8855]

http://www.nothingbutnets.net/

Every 45 seconds, a child dies from malaria -- which is easily prevented through the use of an insecticide-treated net.

A net costs just $10 to purchase, deliver, and educate the recipient on its proper use. Bed nets are a simple, life-saving solution, but we need your help to provide them to those in need. Join us today.


I was amused to see "NBA cares" on the list of places to choose where you heard of them from. anyway....


http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/8206/netsy.jpg

There. perhaps someone gets to live over a trivial sum of money for an american.

But most of us arent gonna pay it. And I may never do it again.

But we sure dont mind hating on other peoples greed.

[ConanRulesNBC]

And only reason anyone has a job is people willing to pay for whatever their job offers(a product...or a service). Doesnt mean everyone owes everyone else. It means people buy and sell...the sellers dont owe the buyers for paying for what they want.

But they're not doing their job right now.

[Kblaze8855]

Which is why we arent buying anything. And nobody is being wronged.

Arguably some cities due the money the teams bring in or....the Tv networks which have to pay the NBA with or without games to show. But thats it.

Im not paying. Im not getting. Im owed nothing.

Season ticket holders I imagine will get the money back. Thats what the NFL planned. If not...thats something owed.

[ConanRulesNBC]

We are. We've made these owners and players rich and now they're not playing.

[Kblaze8855]

We didnt make the owners rich. At least not as basketball fans. You dont buy an NBA team...then get rich. You are rich to begin with.

And the players...just sellers of a service. We buy it. Us watching it....deal is complete.

Unless you have a ticket they didnt return the cash for they dont owe you anything. And even if you do...it wouldnt be the players owing it.

[ConanRulesNBC]

You're just happy being screwed over obviously.

As a long time fan who has supported the NBA and paid my hard earned money, the fact that there's no NBA this season just pisses me off.

I just think it's pathetic that greedy millionaires and billionaires can't come to an agreement over money.

[Kblaze8855]

Im quite upset when im wronged. I try hard not to **** anyone over. Ive failed here and there. But I try.


Im not holding some men I dont know responsible for my entertainment because I watch them play a sport...and buy tickets...and they do the exact same thing.

Im quite sure Derrick Rose buys ore Nba tickets than me and his family probably has more Bulls jerseys than I do(zero). And I suspect he bought a few of them.

Nothing either of us have ever done puts him in my debt.

I get upset at people for....personal issues. Or real wrong doing. Not a labor dispute over money that isnt mine. Im no more mad at the players and owners than I am at the writers for keeping Breaking Bad off the air for 2 years.

[Kblaze8855]

And for the record....

Im considering setting up some kinda....contest type thing on ISH.

Maybe make a new topic on charity and have it so anyone who donates at least 10 dollars to a charity who posts proof of it...is entered into a random drawing I will conduct on thanksgiving day to win a 50 dollar amazon gift card(they email them wit the code to use it).

So someones 10 dollars turns into 50....and a bunch of people the world over might get something out of it. Like...getting to live. And have clean water. And a meal.

A forum full of people hating on the rich for being greedy should have at least 10 people willingto give 10 dollars to people worse off than us right?

Id have to put some thought into that....

[talk at ya]

Thank you KBlaze for pointing out what all of us on the NBA forum can't realize-that NBA player salaries compared to our salaries have similar ratios as our salaries compared to poor people in Africa. Don't bitch about NBA players not doing "all they can do" because none of us are doing all we can do. Also thank you for inspiring me to donate to Nothing But Nets. And for the record, I am a college student, I pay my own tuition, room, and board, and I work two jobs and 30 hours a week while in school to pay for it. So no I don't have a bunch of extra money lying around. So hopefully this will convince someone else who doesn't think they can to donate a few dollars.

[Batchoy]

From the way the players have talked, it seems like you still owe them for having the privilege of being a fan for 20 years, Kblaze8855.

[Kblaze8855]

Id give scottie Pippen a buck or two if he were really like...homeless broke.

[Lebowski]

.. me as a student I have 50 dollars in my savings account and thousands in debt. How am I supposed to help others in a less fortunate position than me? I do community service right now and I did it in HS. Other than that I cant really contribute much more.

You still do more then most, so be proud and know that you are setting a good example for others. I need to punch myself at times to remember it is time to give and not cry about things I do not have, like right now, a new car. I spend too much time saying "This charity can not be trusted, i'll save the money for something I can trust more so I know the money will reach its destination"... sigh..

I agree with the rest of your post.

[Kblaze8855]

This article points out some estimates on what the NBA does for local business:

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201111/south-floridas-eye-popping-economic-hoops-losses


Seems Miami may end up 200 million short just off not having the Heat....



Economists tell CBS Miami that South Florida may suffer $200 million in losses if there is no pro basketball this year. Need an example of the shortfall? CBS reports parking near the American Airlines Arena is now going for three bucks.

And the lockout will do major damage to other cities, too.

In Cleveland, WOIO reports up to 35 percent of downtown restaurants' annual revenue comes from NBA games.

Portland says no Blazers games translates to a $59 million hit, Oklahoma City claims it will lose $60 million if Kevin Durant doesn't play, and Tony Parker's Spurs are worth an astonishing $90 million to the businesses of San Antonio.



Tourists like Duran Minkler are wandering looking for something to do.

“If the Miami Heat were playing tonight would you be going to the game?” CBS4 David Sutta asked Minkler.

Minkler responded “Absolutely the best trio in the league, Bosh, Dwyane Wade, King LeBron, I’d totally go.”

But with no games the only place he’s going is back to his hotel.

The lockout becoming a washout for not just fans but the service industry.

“These guys want to make more money, but they are totally messing with mine.” Chris Pereira-Ignacio, a bartender at the Doral Buffalo Wild Wings told us.

While Pereira may be miles from the American Airlines Arena, but the Heat playoff run last year meant a 12% increase in sales.

“Last year for the NBA it was crazy. It was full house at capacity it was great.”

That now appears to be gone.

Economists estimate the Miami Heat, and its trio of superstars, meant up 200 million dollars a year for our economy.

“We have 50-60 TVs in each restaurant, people are here to watch the games,” Buffalo Wild Wings franchise owner Seth de Kanter said.

When he heard the devastating news today he thought about the 200 employees working at his three restaurants. He’s hoping to avoid sending people home.

“Be creative,” said de Canter. Maybe spend a little more on marketing to try to let people know that we are here. We still have great service. We still have great food.”

They are keeping places open that otherwise may not be just off existing nearby.

I guess thats why they build arenas....

[ConanRulesNBC]

What you just posted, kblaze, should be reason to be upset that there's not a season. They're costing people who really depend on a season all that money. The players and owners have the luxury of being able to wait it out until one of the sides gets the deal they want. But now they're costing people their jobs and a lot of money and those people aren't making millions a year.

[Kblaze8855]

If someone comes and rains money down outside my house every day for 60 years and then...dont for 3 months...

They dont owe me money just because I decided to take advantage and make catching the rain the key to my survival.

The NBA has been business as usual all but 6 or 7 months of the last 60 years.

They dont owe the people who made money off the crowds they attract money when they work out their problems for a while.

[B]

Saying the NBA players or owners owe the fans is like saying George Lucas owes me another Star Wars because I liked the first 6

[ConanRulesNBC]

[QUOTE=B

[ConanRulesNBC]

If someone comes and rains money down outside my house every day for 60 years and then...dont for 3 months...

They dont owe me money just because I decided to take advantage and make catching the rain the key to my survival.

The NBA has been business as usual all but 6 or 7 months of the last 60 years.

They dont owe the people who made money off the crowds they attract money when they work out their problems for a while.

What problems are the NBA players or owners going through? While people who depend on this money to get by are going to be hurt the most the NBA players and owners will still have millions and billions of dollars. There's absolutely no reason either side should be doing this right now. It's total BS.

[Sarcastic]

That's just not true.

I don't usually agree with BOOB, but he is 100% correct. The NBA doesn't owe any of us a damn thing.

[ConanRulesNBC]

I don't usually agree with BOOB, but he is 100% correct. The NBA doesn't owe any of us a damn thing.

We pay their salaries. So, yes, they do.

[Sarcastic]

We pay their salaries. So, yes, they do.

Only the people who go to and watch the games pay their salaries. And even then, those people are making the choice to do so.

Now teachers, policemen, firemen, and government workers. We pay their salaries whether we want to or not, when we pay our taxes.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Even if they don't really "owe" us anything. I'm tired of either side here claiming to be a helpless victim in this. I'm so sick of people sticking up for the players and/or owners.

[Kblaze8855]

The people going to games dont really even pay their salaries either. Only 1.1 of over 4 billion comes from ticket sales.

The owners sure as hell dont need the fans. They are billionaires to begin with.

The players do nothing but sell their goods(in this case...entertainment) at a price people find it fair t opay. Even though most pay nothing at all and watch it on TV(unless we are counting cable costs...in which case everyone on tv owes everyone in the world).

NBA fans get hours of entertainment and then claim to be owed something for...tickets and shit...which players and owners no doubt spend money on too. Most of them at a higher rate than fans.

Players buying dozens and at times hundreds of tickets. their family watches the games.

They are fans like the rest of us....only as rich fans they likely spend more on the NBA than we do.

But we pool all of humanity together and combined...yes. We put more in than 400 players/owners.

But thats that buying/selling is. They offer a product. We buy it.

End of transaction. Nobody is obligated to sell or buy anything.

[bdreason]

I'm going to disagree and say that pro athletes do owe their fans. I'm not sure exactly what they owe, but at the very least I think that pro athletes should show their fans respect by recognizing that it's fans of the game that allow them to live the lives they lead.

Athletes can show that respect by doing simple things, like thanking the fans when they get a chance, or signing or few autographs. I also believe that popular pro athletes should recognize their influence on society, and should embrace that responsibility as the role model that they are (whether they like it or not, Chuck).



This goes back to my Spidermans uncle quote earlier in the thread, "with great power, comes great responsibility". It doesn't matter if these pro athletes don't want to be idolized, because they are. They should understand the things they do in their lives, can effect the lives of people they've never even met. Obviously athletes (or anyone) shouldn't live their lives by the wishes of others, but not understanding or choosing to ignore their social influence is plain irresponsible.


It's really a trip if you sit back and imagine what it would be like if you were someone who directed social trends, or effected the lives of millions of people you'd never even meet. You see it a lot more with Musicians and Artists than you do with someone like a pro basketball player, but can you imagine the pressure? I can tell you that I work in a high pressure, high emotion business myself... but I'm not sure I could handle being a social icon. Perhaps that's why I'm not.

[bdreason]

ps- sry for the rant. I just smoked a cyclone of some ATF... back to watching Vinnie J drop 22 in the 4th quarter.

[Kblaze8855]

I'm going to disagree and say that pro athletes do owe their fans. I'm not sure exactly what they owe, but at the very least I think that pro athletes should show their fans respect by recognizing that it's fans of the game that allow them to live the lives they lead.

Really...

Doesnt the public allow every person with money to live the life they lead? I mean...we dont call people who buy Toyotas toyota fans...but those people provide the great sums of money that many people make working for Toyota. First person shooter fans allow game developers to live well. whoever has the rights to the snuggie...owes his money to people who like to have warm arms as they watch tv?

Once you start down the rich people owing the public road you pretty much have to include...everyone who isnt poor and say they owe everyone else for giving them their lifestyle.

Its pretty much just...the world at work.

I dont see how an NBA player owes me any more for watching ABC than Seth Mcfarlane owes me for watching Family Guy.

They produce something I like.

All im supposed t oget out of it...is enjoyment. They arent obligated to provide me with it.

Im sure thousands of people provide the means for me to have everything I own.

Doesnt mean I owe them anything. Everyone is a buyer and a seller.

If I get something for free...then I owe. If I give something for free...then im owed.

And frankly...ive gotten a lot more from the NBA for free than ive paid for unless we are counting commercials as me paying....

[bdreason]

Rich and powerful people do owe more back to society, but most of these people don't make their money as social icons. Entertainers have always bared the burden of being role models. That's what our society promotes. We can talk all day about how parents should be role models, or teachers should be role models, or scientists should be role models... but that isn't reality. The reality is that singers are role models, actors are role models, reality tv stars are role models (scary)... and pro athletes are role models. These are the people that kids (and adults) look up to and idolize... which is why these people make the money that they do. I'm not claiming Entertainers should live their lives by other people wishes, but they should recognize the impact that their decisions may have on those people who look up to them.

[Smoke117]

Kblaze...usually I've thought you were a know it all ****ing **** prick, but I like you here. The NBA absolutely doesn't owe us anything. This isn't World War ****ing II When the men were sent off to war and the women were working the factories. I'm sure some of you little boys will find some little games to play in the mean time while us grown men frankly just drink more Maker's Mark and remember the older times. **** you all, basically. I love this thread, btw. Good going, kblaze, **** the whiners.

[Kblaze8855]

I think back to being a kid at times when I hear about athlete role models...

I...dont think...I was that stupid.

The only person I ever looked up to role model wise was my grandfather while I had him.

Ive always felt that treating kids old enough to reason like blank slates or...like they are brainless...was half the problem. I cringe when I see someone do "baby talk" to a kid they expect to learn to speak properly.

I remember hating being talked down to as a kid. Im quite sure I was smarter and more responsible by 12 than many adults. And the older I got the more clear it became that most adults are nothing to emulate.

I try to give kids more credit than to assume they are gonna turn out to be douchebags because Lebron might be.

[Smoke117]

I think back to being a kid at times when I hear about athlete role models...

I...dont think...I was that stupid.

The only person I ever looked up to role model wise was my grandfather while I had him.

Ive always felt that treating kids old enough to reason like blank slates or...like they are brainless...was half the problem. I cringe when I see someone do "baby talk" to a kid they expect to learn to speak properly.

I remember hating being talked down to as a kid. Im quite sure I was smarter and more responsible by 12 than many adults. And the older I got the more clear it became that most adults are nothing to emulate.

I try to give kids more credit than to assume they are gonna turn out to be douchebags because Lebron might be.


Yada Yada, have a shot of Scotch and shut the hell up.

[eliteballer]

Only the people who go to and watch the games pay their salaries. And even then, those people are making the choice to do so.


......What? How do you think they make money?

They get those huge national and local tv deals because people watch the games and advertisers want exposure to them.

The fans/people DO pay the salaries.

Among the more ridiculous things I've heard.

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze...usually I've thought you were a know it all ****ing **** prick, but I like you here.

Well thats because im pretty sure I do know it all and im glad to say so.



The NBA absolutely doesn't owe us anything. This isn't World War ****ing II When the men were sent off to war and the women were working the factories. I'm sure some of you little boys will find some little games to play in the mean time while us grown men frankly just drink more Maker's Mark and remember the older times. **** you all, basically. I love this thread, btw. Good going, kblaze, **** the whiners.

I didnt notice till now but...I have been drinking more.

Shit I never drink too. Like gin.

And my friends dad gave us an idea for thanksgiving. Said in the 70s they would get a big new trashcan, all the fruit they could find, 2-3 bottles of ever clear, and top it off with juice and shit and drink it on holidays.

Sounds good to me.

[Kblaze8855]

......What? How do you think they make money?

They get those huge national and local tv deals because people watch the games and advertisers want exposure to them.

The fans/people DO pay the salaries.

No more than the "fans/people" pay the salaries of everyone who has a job.

They just get more because more people buy what they offer and they are more important to its production than most people are to what their job offers the public.

[Quickening]

I agree the fans aren't owed anything.... you pay to watch your team play, you get enjoyment out of that, you get entertained, thats what you pay for.

If I go the cinema every couple of weeks and pay to watch a film for my own entertainment, does that mean the cinema owes me something? Of course not.

[Kblaze8855]

^
Some say the actos owe you. Somehow. They owe you more than the movie you paid to see.

[Smoke117]

God get rid of those ****ing frog icons they are ****ing annoying.

[EricForman]

The league don't owe us sh*t. People who say things like "they owe us... WE are the ones who pay their salary/revenue actually" are idiots.

That's like saying Beatles owe everyone because its people who keep listening to their music, you know, not because its brilliant and timeless and hauntingly beautiful.

Or saying Michael Jackson owed all his fans because they paid money to listen to Thriller.

Stupid logic.

I'm not saying owners/players are blameless. both sides behaved like idiots (although owners never negotiated in good faith nor did they play fair, so they are mostly at fault), they f*cked up each other's lives, not ours. They dont owe us nothing.

The players are entitled to make what htey make becuase market dictates that. Saying they shouldn't complain about a unfair deal because they already make so much is a dumb logic.

[OmniStrife]

I agree that they owe us nothing.
They don't force us to watch / pay for their products.
And I was never pissed because of it...

I'm just pissed that they won't allow me to invest my money into their salaries this year! :oldlol:

JUST LET ME BURN MONEY ON THAT LEAGUE PASS!!!

[jlip]

I agree with the OP. To act as if we (the fans) have some inalienable right to demand that other grown men entertain us with their athletic prowess is arguably a greater display of arrogance than anything the players and owners have done. Seriously... some people are conducting themselves as if their Constitutional rights have been violated or something. It's one thing to be angry at the fact that your favorite sport is not being played. I understand that. I feel that. But no other grown man owes me anything but simple respect. He definitely doesn't owe me the privilege of watching him throw a ball in a basket.

[Meticode]

2 Lockouts in 13 years. Where Amazing Happens.

[Sarcastic]

2 Lockouts in 13 years. Where Amazing Happens.

People like to sh!t on baseball all the time for not having a salary cap, but they have had 16 years of labor peace, and even teams that don't even try like the Royals and Pirates, still make profit every year.

All the salary cap sports (NHL, NFL, NBA) have had labor stoppages in the last 10 years.

[Kblaze8855]

I wanna say we are at 3 lockouts in 17 years. The 95 one was shorter...but it happened.

[ConanRulesNBC]

The players do nothing but sell their goods(in this case...entertainment) at a price people find it fair t opay. Even though most pay nothing at all and watch it on TV(unless we are counting cable costs...in which case everyone on tv owes everyone in the world).

I wouldn't say it's a "fair" price. Prices for a lot of tickets are crazy. How is it "fair" to pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars if you want to sit front row? You have no choice over that. If you want a good seat, you pay a ridiculous price. I'm sure if it were up to the majority of fans of any sport, they would lower ticket prices.

[Kblaze8855]

If it were put to a vote the public would lower the price of 10 cent gum. People want to pay less for everything. how is that an argument?

And of course its fair to pay thousands to sit courtside. There arent many seats. People want them. The people themselves decide what they are willing to pay. Anyone who pays an unfair price almost has to be considered an idiot for supporting the price by telling the people setting it its what they are willing to pay.

[ConanRulesNBC]

^
Some say the actos owe you. Somehow. They owe you more than the movie you paid to see.

How is that even the same situation? We pay to see one movie and that's it. Who is expecting anything else? I do think actors are over paid and movie prices are crazy. But I don't think the actors really owe me anything.

It's different because sports fans are constantly supporting the players. They're constantly watching games, attending games, buying their merchandise. Spending tons of money and then something like this happens.

The majority of the public just sees this as rich spoiled athletes who had it good for years and now they're being asked to give up some money and they're refusing. That's why no one is really behind the players in this. Everyone is struggling right now in todays economy but no one is going to stick up or feel sorry for players who make millions of dollars.

[ConanRulesNBC]

If it were put to a vote the public would lower the price of 10 cent gum. People want to pay less for everything. how is that an argument?

And of course its fair to pay thousands to sit courtside. There arent many seats. People want them. The people themselves decide what they are willing to pay. Anyone who pays an unfair price almost has to be considered an idiot for supporting the price by telling the people setting it its what they are willing to pay.

$0.10 gum compared to $1,000 front row ticket? Are you freakin' kidding me? Where do you come up with these stupid ass comparisons?

And people don't decide what they're willing to pay. The owners of the teams/arenas decide how much you should pay.

[Kblaze8855]

The majority of the public hates everyone richer than them and always will. Jealousy might be the most common human emotion.

[Kblaze8855]

$0.10 gum compared to $1,000 front row ticket? Are you freakin' kidding me? Where do you come up with these stupid ass comparisons?


Im gonna wait a moment and see if anyone but you fails to understand my point there.

I...suspect not.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Just like your opinion that no "grown person" complains about movie ticket prices?

[ConanRulesNBC]

And you know how many players probably get FREE tickets for their family and friends? You really think LeBron James actually pays for his mother to sit court side during the games?

[Kblaze8855]

Id say no grown person who has tried to live in the real world thinks 200k is needed t get by in America. The movie? People would...as I said...lower prices of everything.

[Kblaze8855]

And you know how many players probably get FREE tickets for their family and friends? You really think LeBron James actually pays for his mother to sit court side during the games?


Couldnt speak on individual players. I can say for a fact many many many many players buy a lot of tickets for fans and family. There are guys who have spent 50 thousand dollars bringing a gang of people out to see them play. Especially the big events.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Well, movie ticket prices should be lowered.

[Arroyo8]

sad

[28renyoy]

basketball is something used by the people for nothing but amusement. you take it away and we quickly find a replacement, therefore it is expendable. if you really want to break it down, 90% of the players in the league would be nothing without the nba. they are intellectually inferior, non-charismatic, and come from nothing where the majority of their peers are in jail or dead by 40. what we are doing for them is essentially charity.

their product is not something we require. it is not food, or electricity, or medical care. we pay for something we enjoy, not require. and therefore the league HAS to cater to the people, otherwise the demand for the product will relinquish with our leisure going towards something else.

the die hards, like those that post on internet message boards, will come back; but eventually you hit a point where the casual fan(which makes up 95% of sports fans) doesn't care anymore and that is when the nba dies.

[ConanRulesNBC]

^^ Makes good points.

[Kblaze8855]

As someone from the kind of place NBA players come from...

Most of my friends are not dead or in jail and those who arent 40 arent likely to be by then.

And charity? Paying to be entertained is not...charity.

[Kevin_Gamble]

basketball is something used by the people for nothing but amusement. you take it away and we quickly find a replacement, therefore it is expendable. if you really want to break it down, 90% of the players in the league would be nothing without the nba. they are intellectually inferior, non-charismatic, and come from nothing where the majority of their peers are in jail or dead by 40. what we are doing for them is essentially charity.



Interesting idea. So basically you are saying that:

1. There is a group of people, who are the world's top .0000000000001% at a very lucrative line of work.

2. This lucrative line of work exists and generates billions of dollars in revenue world wide.

3. If that line of work doesn't exist, they cannot use their unique and sublime talent.

4. Therefore these people are useless and money we pay to access their talents is charity.

Seriously, though. Please think before you post.

[hoopslife]

if you really want to break it down, 90% of the players in the league would be nothing without the nba. they are intellectually inferior, non-charismatic, and come from nothing where the majority of their peers are in jail or dead by 40. what we are doing for them is essentially charity.



That sounds like a racist post to be honest. It's sad that you have this point of view and just because someone comes from a lower social-economic status it doesn't make them dumber than anyone else or non-charismatic...

[The Macho Man]

Just because not everyone can afford courtside seats doesn't mean the prices aren't fair.

[triangleoffense]

basketball is something used by the people for nothing but amusement. you take it away and we quickly find a replacement, therefore it is expendable. if you really want to break it down, 90% of the players in the league would be nothing without the nba. they are intellectually inferior, non-charismatic, and come from nothing where the majority of their peers are in jail or dead by 40. what we are doing for them is essentially charity.

their product is not something we require. it is not food, or electricity, or medical care. we pay for something we enjoy, not require. and therefore the league HAS to cater to the people, otherwise the demand for the product will relinquish with our leisure going towards something else.

the die hards, like those that post on internet message boards, will come back; but eventually you hit a point where the casual fan(which makes up 95% of sports fans) doesn't care anymore and that is when the nba dies.
yet they have a skillset and are in a line of work that less than 1% of the population can perform. There's a reason why they are paid so much. Employees have just as much of a right to find competitive suitors that are willing to pay for their talents and abilities just as much as employers have a right to find competitive employees that are willing to work for them.

[bdreason]

John Amaechi completely slayed this argument on ESPN today. Hopefully someone posts it on Youtubee so I can link it here. In short, he touched on the same issues that I did regarding pro athletes having great power of influence, and choosing not to use it, or choosing not to use it to institute positive change... or instead using it to sell sneakers and jerseys.

[28renyoy]

Interesting idea. So basically you are saying that:

1. There is a group of people, who are the world's top .0000000000001% at a very lucrative line of work.

2. This lucrative line of work exists and generates billions of dollars in revenue world wide.

3. If that line of work doesn't exist, they cannot use their unique and sublime talent.

4. Therefore these people are useless and money we pay to access their talents is charity.

Seriously, though. Please think before you post.

Without the league, the players value to society diminishes almost entirely. And what do they do for society? They entertain us. It is not something required, we watch basketball strictly for amusement. When you have something that elastic, you must appease the public no matter what. This is a matter of simple economics.

The players are defined by the fans in every way. Just look at Tim Tebow. An average NFL player, statistically speaking, yet he had the top selling jersey in the NFL. It's not about performance or output, but appealing to the fans and at this point the NBA is not doing that.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Most of these players are uneducated and without playing a sport they wouldn't be anywhere right now. They'd be working in factories or McDonalds. The only reason most of them get through school is because they can play a sport. Not because of how smart they are.

[ConanRulesNBC]

John Amaechi completely slayed this argument on ESPN today. Hopefully someone posts it on Youtubee so I can link it here. In short, he touched on the same issues that I did regarding pro athletes having great power of influence, and choosing not to use it, or choosing not to use it to institute positive change... or instead using it to sell sneakers and jerseys.

A lot of these athletes "give back" when it comes to helping their image. Other than that, they don't give a crap about anyone else. All they care about is owning 5 mansions, buying half a million dollar cars, $100,000 diamond earrings or watches, spending $250,000 in one night at a bar.

[Kblaze8855]

And what you might be without your skills means.....what?

[ConanRulesNBC]

And what you might be without your skills means.....what?

It means that they're fortunate to be able to play a sport and make millions and most of them are greedy a**holes who just take and take and take and never give back.

[bdreason]

People like to sh!t on baseball all the time for not having a salary cap, but they have had 16 years of labor peace, and even teams that don't even try like the Royals and Pirates, still make profit every year.

All the salary cap sports (NHL, NFL, NBA) have had labor stoppages in the last 10 years.


Because the big boys share with the little boys... something the NBA seems to want to avoid.

The answer has always been revenue sharing, and the owners know it. They are just trying to get what they can out of the players before they address the real issues.

[Kblaze8855]

as opposed to the rest of humanity who take and take and never give back?

If poor people got rich they would be the same way for the most part. Which should be obvious since most people in sports were poor to begin with.

Top to bottom people are selfish.

[HurricaneKid]

A lot of these athletes "give back" when it comes to helping their image. Other than that, they don't give a crap about anyone else. All they care about is owning 5 mansions, buying half a million dollar cars, $100,000 diamond earrings or watches, spending $250,000 in one night at a bar.


Most of these players are uneducated and without playing a sport they wouldn't be anywhere right now. They'd be working in factories or McDonalds. The only reason most of them get through school is because they can play a sport. Not because of how smart they are.


It means that they're fortunate to be able to play a sport and make millions and most of them are greedy a**holes who just take and take and take and never give back.



Just call them dumb ****ers and be done with it. Your posts disgust me.

You have no basis for this racist and ridiculous view. The truth is they almost all donate significant amounts of time and energy into their communities and have since college. My nephew was in a youth hospital and I saw a number of them. Several days later they dropped by a local boys and girls club where he was playing. He has seen them enough that he feels he knows a pair of them. There is infinite numbers of these stories and your harsh portrayals of them are completely unfounded.

[Sarcastic]

Because the big boys share with the little boys... something the NBA seems to want to avoid.

The answer has always been revenue sharing, and the owners know it. They are just trying to get what they can out of the players before they address the real issues.

And yet people continuously bash the players for not taking the damn deal, even though it was not in their best interest to do so. Only the owner's, and our's because we get our precious basketball entertainment back.

[Sarcastic]

Just call them dumb ****ers and be done with it. Your posts disgust me.

You have no basis for this racist and ridiculous view. The truth is they almost all donate significant amounts of time and energy into their communities and have since college. My nephew was in a youth hospital and I saw a number of them. Several days later they dropped by a local boys and girls club where he was playing. He has seen them enough that he feels he knows a pair of them. There is infinite numbers of these stories and your harsh portrayals of them are completely unfounded.

This pretty much sums it up, but now you will be charged with pulling the ol race card out.

[ConanRulesNBC]

as opposed to the rest of humanity who take and take and never give back?

If poor people got rich they would be the same way for the most part. Which should be obvious since most people in sports were poor to begin with.

Top to bottom people are selfish.

That's not true. I know tons of people who give and donate to charities and go and help serve food at pads. I go and serve food at pads and go to feed my starving children and make the bags of rice, chicken, etc. to ship out to other countries.

These rich athletes could be doing so much more to help out less fortunate people. But they don't.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Just call them dumb ****ers and be done with it. Your posts disgust me.

You have no basis for this racist and ridiculous view. The truth is they almost all donate significant amounts of time and energy into their communities and have since college. My nephew was in a youth hospital and I saw a number of them. Several days later they dropped by a local boys and girls club where he was playing. He has seen them enough that he feels he knows a pair of them. There is infinite numbers of these stories and your harsh portrayals of them are completely unfounded.

:roll:

You're right. I'm racist towards athletes. I don't give a crap what race or gender they are.

[ConanRulesNBC]

This pretty much sums it up, but now you will be charged with pulling the ol race card out.

Oh f*ck off. Seriously. You're the most annoying poster on here. All you do is sit there and suck these NBA players *****.

[Kblaze8855]

Funny to me people say racism isnt an issue with peoples opinions but one of the two arguing now was saying the players are likely drug dealers and the other calls black people coons and tells posters to go back to the jungle.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Funny to me people say racism isnt an issue with peoples opinions but one of the two arguing now was saying the players are likely drug dealers and the other calls black people coons and tells posters to go back to the jungle.

When have I ever been racist to anyone? I say they'd probably be drug dealears and you assume that I mean they're black. You're the one playing the race card.

[talk at ya]

Okay the fact that basketball players are in the entertainment industry shows that they owe us even less. I mean think about it-if all doctors that treated cancer doubled their prices, only the cancer patients who absolutely couldn't afford healthcare would stop seeing the doctor, because if they stop seeing the doctor they die. In this sense, I would say doctors/healthcare agencies owe the public to at least keep healthcare prices somewhat affordable. However, if the NBA doubled ticket prices, a lot more people would stop going to games, because even though these people could technically still afford it, they decide that the money could be better spent.

Seriously, all these people claiming the NBA owes us or something just need to take a basic Economics class. Ticket prices are determined entirely by the market. If Franchises can charge 1000 dollars for front row seats, and people will buy them, then obviously they are going to charge that much. If they sold these seats for $10, then the franchise is being inefficient. They are making less money than they could, and the customers willing to pay most for these seats aren't necessarily getting them. Players saying they "owe" the fans are just trying to give people another reason to buy their product, because if a fan feels a personal connection to a player/team then they might be willing to spend just a little more on the product.

This lockout should be showing fans more than anything how it is all just business.

[Sarcastic]

Oh f*ck off. Seriously. You're the most annoying poster on here. All you do is sit there and suck these NBA players *****.

Because my opinion differs from yours? Or is it that I am not as simplistic in my world view as to question why people who are entertainers and the most elite at what they do, deserve millions of dollars in compensation?

[Kblaze8855]

That's not true. I know tons of people who give and donate to charities and go and help serve food at pads. I go and serve food at pads and go to feed my starving children and make the bags of rice, chicken, etc. to ship out to other countries.

These rich athletes could be doing so much more to help out less fortunate people. But they don't.


I bought mosquito netting for charity in this very topic. ive helped the homeless and given food away and helped out can drives and so on.

And rest assured......im selfish as hell.

We all are. We dont do half of what we can. I dont do a tenth. And ill throw stones when i dont spend enough to save a kids life or feed his whole family for a month on video games and bullshit i dont need.

[ConanRulesNBC]

You're right. It is just business to the players and the owners. That's why I'm completely disgusted with this lockout. We pay their salaries to be entertained and then they can't even agree on how to share the money and get a season going.

[Sarcastic]

When have I ever been racist to anyone? I say they'd probably be drug dealears and you assume that I mean they're black. You're the one playing the race card.

You use code words, but I think I am giving you too much credit to think you even know what that means.

[ConanRulesNBC]

You use code words, but I think I am giving you too much credit to think you even know what that means.

Race has nothing to do with it. White, black, hispanic, it doesn't matter. So many athletes only get by because of sports. A majority of them probably wouldn't even have a high school diploma if it wasn't for how good they played.

I say the drug thing because a ton of players do get busted for selling/buying/doing drugs. I'm not just pulling that out of my ass.

[The Macho Man]

Assuming most athletes couldn't get through high school if they weren't playing ball is kind of ridiculous. You think it's rare for tall, athletic people to have even moderate intelligence? I'm sure a lot of them benefitted from the fact they played ball. But saying most of them would be dropouts? Maybe dropout rates are just way way higher than I thought they were.

[Kevin_Gamble]

Race has nothing to do with it. White, black, hispanic, it doesn't matter. So many athletes only get by because of sports. A majority of them probably wouldn't even have a high school diploma if it wasn't for how good they played.

I say the drug thing because a ton of players do get busted for selling/buying/doing drugs. I'm not just pulling that out of my ass.

Assuming that an average NBA player weighs 220lbs. or 100 kg, 10 NBA players would be a metric ton of players. That doesn't sound so bad or out of line with the rest of the world.

[longtime lurker]

Assuming most athletes couldn't get through high school if they weren't playing ball is kind of ridiculous. You think it's rare for tall, athletic people to have even moderate intelligence? I'm sure a lot of them benefitted from the fact they played ball. But saying most of them would be dropouts? Maybe dropout rates are just way way higher than I thought they were.

SMH he wouldn't be saying that about Hockey players, hell wouldn't even say that about football players :oldlol:

[ConanRulesNBC]

SMH he wouldn't be saying that about Hockey players, hell wouldn't even say that about football players :oldlol:

Yes I would. I never once said just NBA players.