ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #12. Dirk Nowitzki vs John Havlicek.

[Kblaze8855]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rsLXG4fD3I4/TVHyeenJ-LI/AAAAAAAAAMo/OMFePtDqIYM/s1600/Dirk+Nowitzki+shooting.jpg

10 time all star
2007 NBa MVP
2011 NBA finals MVP
11 time all NBA(4 first 5 second)
Top 5 in scoring 2005 and 2009
Top 3 in FTs made in 2005 and 2010
Career 23/8/3 player with individual season highs of 26 points, 10 rebounds, and 3.5 assists.
Top 3 in MVP voting in 2006 and 2005.


What they were saying....

I hesitated to use this one because its from his own coach but...a lot of these are from friends, coaches and tammates so...whatever.



"In my opinion, he's a top 10 player in NBA history because of the uniqueness of his game and how he's carried this franchise on his back for over a decade,"


Im sure many were shocked to hear it even from his own coach but....its arguable that people who have been ranked top 10 didnt actually accomplish anything he didnt. In fact its more than arguable. Its a fact. I suspect hes a guy who once hes gone for a while ranking himway way up will be more common as thoughts of his faults are less vivid. top 10 all time? Perhaps not. But hes gonna creep up as everyone does towards the end.



http://www.hardcourtmayhem.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/john-havlicek.jpg


John Havlicek

13 time NBA all star
8 time NBA champion
1974 finals MVP(award did not exist for 5 of his rings)
11 time all NBA(4 first 6 second)
8 time all defensive team(5 first 3 second)
Top 5 in MVP voting in two seasons
Top 5 in assists twice
Top 5 in ppg twice
Career 20/5/6 player with single season highs of 29/9/8


As for what they were saying...

I almost have to many option. The more I look into it he might have been the most loved player in the NBA in his prime. Examples:


newspaper headling in 1973:


Two headlines you'll probably never read: "Pope Elopes" or "Hawlicek Chokes."



Jerry West told Sports Illustrated, "The guy is the ambassador of our sport. John always gave his very best every night and had time for everybody-teammates, fans, the press." Cowens added, "You tell me how many class guys there are like him anywhere. They ought to retire his number from the whole NBA. Just take 17 and stash it up there in lights."


"He epitomizes everything good," said Celtics general manager Red Auerbach in The New York Times. "If I had a son like John I'd be the happiest man in the world."



"On stamina alone, he'd be among the top players who ever played the game," longtime New York Knicks coach Red Holzman once said of John "Hondo" Havlicek. "It would've been fair to those who had to play him or those who had to coach against him if he had been blessed only with his inhuman endurance. God had to compound it by making him a good scorer, smart ballhandler and intelligent defensive player with quickness of mind, hands and feet."


And in 1978 the Boston Glob polled the Celtics fanbase and he was voted the greatest Celtic ever over Russell and Cousy.

I used to wonder how someone so loved and highly regarded faded in the minds of fans to the point most dont know anything but what team he played for....

I have some thoughts on that which ill post shortly.

[Fazotronic]

lol. does anyone think Havlicek would get 5 all defensive first teams today?

[Gotterdammerung]

Havlicek in a landslide.

More later.

[Kblaze8855]

For all his greatness hes probably the most overshadowed player of his level ever. I dont feel like rewording it all for the same information so ill just find something I said before:




He put up straight superstar numbersi n the playoffs from the mid 60s to the mid 70s. He wasnt on some roleplayer shit most of the time. For the last 3 title runs with Russell around he put up 24/9/4, 26/9/8, and 25/10/6.

He could realistically be like a 15 time all star. He was putting up 20/5 in his second season and wasnt an all star...but he made it putting up 19/6 years later. If they had the loose definition of assists we use back then he might well have been a 29/11/9 player.

He had rings as a high scoring 6th man, rings as his teams leading scorer(though not best player), and rings when Russell was gone. He just has the bad(well...depending on how you look at it) luck of being teamed with someone to overshadow him all the time.

He won it all in college...on a team with Jerry Lucas. Guy forgotten today but he was considered one of the best players in the world for some time. Top 50 all time. All that. And a bigman...bigmen get the credit.

He then went to the NBA to be outshined by Russell.

Russell left and they draft Cowens. Another bigman to get the love. Didnt hurt that cowens was a legit superstar....plus loved because of his style of play.

John was born to be the winner in the background.

Id say he should have stuck with football where he could have gotten attention relative to his accomplishments.....but he was drafted to Cleveland. Where he of course would have been outshined by...Jim Brown.

Yes...John Havlicek was drafted by the NFL.


He put up 28 a game in the 69 finals. 27 a game in the 68 finals with 40/10/7 to close it out. He was one minute short of the NBA record for minutes in a 6 game series. He put up 26/8/5 in the 74 finals.

If they just handed finals MVP to the guy with the most points on the winning team like they do these days he would have 3 or 4 finals MVPs. With 8 rings?

Career accomplishments wise hes pretty much two elite careers in one.

He never won an mvp but he put up 28/9/8 on a 56 win team and 24/7/7 on a 68 win team. So he no doubt had MVP quality years.

On every level..in every sport...there was someone to take credit. ut he always did his thing. he always held his own.

What is there to say he didnt do?

8 rings. Rings in every role. 6th man...superstar sidekick...MVP level team leader who was leaned on to close games.

He put up Lebron/Bird numbers.

He was one of the best defensive players in the NBA.

You can go on youtube to the 70s finals and watch him ball his ass off throwing floaters to the heavens over Kareem, making big plays on both ends, leading offenses, and guarding stars well.

What more was there for him to do to prove his greatness?

He did it all...and did it so consistently and working so hard Harvard actually did studies on his heart rate because he was seen as having the most stamina in the major sports.

Hes no doubt gonna have a lot of people in this topic including the word "But..." and finding something to nitpick after admitting that he pretty much had 3 careers worth of HOF accomplishments in one....but I dont know that I can.

Its arguable either way to me. I dont care much who wins this one. But im nto looking forward to the sweeping under the rug I suspect Hondo is about to get in here.

[PTB Fan]

John Havlicek and it's not even close. More accomplished player, better defender, all-around player, was much better leader, had a better peak and so on.

Dirk can be argued as better shooter and possibly offensive player, but John was a capable scorer (26 000+ points), so much better playmaker and productive offensive force (top 10 in both scoring and passing for 4-5 years in his career) etc.

Give me Hondo and i don't even need to take look back. He's in the 10-15 range on the all time list IMO. Such a great player. His only issue is that he didn't win a MVP (even with 29/9/8, thanks to Kareem he didn't) which is his only issue.

He always elevated his game in the clutch too. And i don't think Dirk should have got past Baylor. Nowitzki is in the 20-25 range on the all time list. Hondo by far.

[Kblaze8855]

lol. does anyone think Havlicek would get 5 all defensive first teams today?

Any reason he couldnt be an all D type?

Less athletic players than he was are considered for it.

Defense is more about desire, effort, intelligence and and preparation than anything physical....and he was a solid to very good athlete anyway.

I dont think Bowen was any more athletic.

Im thinking Hondo is someone who people will make assumptions about because of the color of his skin. I try not to do that.

[PTB Fan]

He was one of the best defensive players in the NBA.


I personally feel John's defense is extremely underrated. He's arguably a top 20 defender of all time and one of the 10 finest ever on the perimeter. He was such a great player on those passing lanes and could lock his opponent with ease.

Elgin gave him trouble from time to time, but who he didn't gave problems? And probably West too. Otherwise, Havlicek was a remarkable defender. He had 5x All-First Defensive Teams. Had they recorded them earlier, he'd have finished with like 7-10 of them.

[PTB Fan]

lol. does anyone think Havlicek would get 5 all defensive first teams today?

Bobby Jones had similar physical gifts (expect minus the stamina) and finished in 10 All-First Defensive Teams (counting 2 All-First selections from ABA too) and only one All-Second selection too.

I think Hondo would have been a brilliant defender now.

[Brunch@Five]

I'd probably take Havlicek due to the reasons kblaze stated.

As for his stats:
his peak numbers are inflated (relative to most other seasons) by playing up to 45 minutes per game. Per 36, his numbers barely changed over the course of his career. As for his efficiency: shooting clearly is worse than Nowitzki, and even in his last year, playing the least minutes, he averaged more TOs than Nowitzki ever has outside his rookie season.

[WillC]

John Havlicek, definitely.

He was a winner, a tremendous defender, he had an incredible mid-range game, his game fit into the team style of play but he could take over if necessary.

[Harison]

Hondo

[Kblaze8855]

Of course hondos numbers went up with his minutes. his ability t oplay the whole game and still finish strong was probably his most famous trait.

Id say being able t play a high level on both ends virtually all game is impressive as hell. He played 47 minutes a game in his 6th title run then another 47 a game in 72.

[greensborohill]

Dirk

Where is the list so far?

[Kblaze8855]

Just a moment.

[Kblaze8855]

26. Webber
25. Dantley
24. King
23. Cunningham
22. Worthy
21. Jerry Lucas
20.Paul Pierce
19.Dolph Schayes
18.Paul Arizin
17.Dennis Rodman
16.Dominique Wilkins
15. Elvin Hayes
14. Kevin Mchale
13. Pippen
12. Baylor



I keep messing up the number in the first posts because I was thrown off on like #16 and the list I work off of on my desktop is off because of it. This is the vote for #11 not 12.

[L.Kizzle]

Its a shame Elgin Baylor a player who's considered a top 3 talent ALL TIME is voted #13 at just the forwards ... with that said, Havlicek.

[Kblaze8855]

Top 3 talent al ltime?

Shaq
jordan
Bird
Lebron
Barkley
Hakeem
Wilt
Kareem
Kobe

Hes more...talented?

[greensborohill]

I would like to vote Havvy over Dirk, but not if LeBron is still in play. It's disrespectful.

Dirk

[Brunch@Five]

Of course hondos numbers went up with his minutes. his ability t oplay the whole game and still finish strong was probably his most famous trait.

Id say being able t play a high level on both ends virtually all game is impressive as hell. He played 47 minutes a game in his 6th title run then another 47 a game in 72.

that's definitely true, just posted this to explain that he had those few extraordinary seasons (statistically) and lots of modes ones (20/5/4).
Wilt stats though regularly get put down for the same reasons (era and minutes).

Havlicek has a very very good case over Dirk even without stats, just off accomplishments, so it doesn't matter that much in this thread. Just an interesting thought.

[raiderfan19]

Havlicek, though this is the issue with doing a list like this. The person whos doing the list controls the outcome. Dirk is better than both dr j and rick barry but because the list is out of order, we never get that vote

[Big164]

Dirk

My ranking criteria is simple: Rings/ Stats/ Leadership.

Dirk is a better rebounder, scorer and was the undisputed leader his entire career. He wins 2 out of 3 against Hondo. Both belong top 7 on this list though.

[Kblaze8855]

Look at the initial voting topic...

Virtually everyone had these guys over dirk. Which is why they are over dirk. I didnt just decide where to put any of them.

Feel free to ad up the numbers as I did(you might get slightly difference results since I included some other all time lists to make up for the fact that people were forgetting people like Hayes, Dirk, and Pippen on some lists). But you will see what I mean.


There were people with Rodman over dirk.

What d oyou want me to d? Modify it for my purposes? Its the ISh list. Not mine.

[raiderfan19]

Oh i didnt mean to blame you in particular though i realize i did. The issue is people are just wrong. Which im surprised you use group think as a shield given how often you go against it. No offense to rodman but having him above dirk just invalidates the list(and yes i realize that there are scenarios where rodman would be more useful than dirk)

[Kblaze8855]

Im not using it as a shield. Im saying when the goal is seeing what people think asking what they think has to be done regardless of what any individual among them believes. Its not my system but i couldnt think of a better one. At least not one that would really inspire discussion of each individual along the way.

[kentatm]

I think this would be better if we went from #1 down to #25 and not from #25 up to #1.

Yea that would kind of ruin the fun of voting but doing it this way just seems wrong.

[DMAVS41]

I have no idea who was better, but I just have to laugh at people saying its not close either way.

I'll vote for Dirk because he's my favorite player. No issue with Hondo being ahead of him. Not sure what criteria could possibly be used to put Lebron ahead of Dirk though. That is just awful at this point.

[Kblaze8855]

Doing it from the top down in 08 kevin johnson and rodman still finished ahead of dirk. Payton over willis reed. Stockton over a gang of mvps and guys who led title teams. Thats how it works that way. One guy can just go crazy propping up one undeserving player till people cave and vote him in. One on one one at a time the votes have less room for idiocy and fringe opinions to throw it off. Its not a system id have designed but i really dont see a better way.

[raiderfan19]

The group think comment was about the dr j/dirk discussion from the other thread

[PTB Fan]

Its a shame Elgin Baylor a player who's considered a top 3 talent ALL TIME is voted #13 at just the forwards ... with that said, Havlicek.

I don't think Elgin is top 3 talent ever. Top 10 is the better choice.

[Fatal9]

This was discussed earlier...anyways, I'm surprised with people voting for Hondo (and how high he already is) so I'll just post what I did earlier. I view him like a Ginobili but with amazing longevity. Clutch, great all-around game, incorporated his game with the team well (played as sixth man if needed), won finals MVP while not exactly being seen as the best player on the team, statistically I don't see much of a difference (adjusted stats actually favor Manu) and so on.

The two years where his numbers look really pretty need a closer look. He was playing like 45 minutes a game on a team that took the most shots in the league. That's going to produce raw numbers to make you look better than you really are. So raw statline looks impressive but if you look at it adjusted to the minutes/pace...they weren't really that impressive statistically (stats that take this into account kind of show this). Just something I hope everyone realizes, when he puts up 25/7/7...it's not really the 25/7/7 you see from someone like say LeBron nowadays.

He won championships, but he was never the leading MVP guy on his team in any of those years. During his first 6 championships? He finished top 10 in MVP voting once...and it was exactly 10th behind a 34 year old Cousy and Terry Deschinger. He won with Russell just like everyone else did, though I'll admit he probably did a lot more than anyone else Russell played with in the '68 and '69 playoffs. Then when Celtics won 68 in '73? Cowens won the MVP. Then when they won in '74? Cowens was top 4, Hondo was tied for 9th with Norm Van Lier. Then when they won in '76? Cowens was a couple of first place votes away from winning the MVP again...Hondo meanwhile was 24th (he was putting up 17/4/4 by this point, 13/4/3 in the playoffs...and they still won). And it's not like he led the team anywhere when Russell left (from championship to 34 wins) and Cowens wasn't drafted yet, maybe that's the reason he didn't really get MVP love over Cowens in the 70s.

You win half your championships putting up 12/5/2, 16/4/2, 13/4/3, 18/7/2 shooting 35%...I'm not going to see championships as a reason for you to be over LeBron, Dirk and others who won MVPs, played at a level he didn't and were in best player conversations year after year (no matter how you look at it...whether MVP voting, stats etc). And even the other runs, just use perspective on his stats because the combination of the pace, minutes and his efficiency doesn't really end up showing those as some epic playoff runs you expect out of a top 20 guy (especially one whose regular seasons don't hold up against most of these guys).


I'm voting for Dirk. As a player, he's a level above so I don't really care how many championships or what not Havlicek won.

[Kblaze8855]

Hondo having worse numbers as a 6th man type should be expected. But he was the leading scorer and an elite defender on what? 3 title teams? He did too much for me to lump him in as a sidekick type. I dont see how its much different than kobe with shaq. Except shaq was really his teams best offensive threat.

Hondo was out there dropping 40 point near triple doubles in closeout games and making epic shots and defensive plays to win rings.

He was putting in serious work from like 66 to the mid 70s. Too much to downplay for me.


Plus it was the 70s. Bigmen got the love. Ive heard from cowens mouth the celtics were hondos team and they looked to him for leadership and all. He was the captian face of the team and its leader. Im not sure its as simple as mvp votes to see whos team it was. Mvp voting has done some odd things. Look into ewing hakeem and isiah teammates votes some years.

[RobertdeMeijer]

John Havlicek

[nycelt84]

John Havlicek

[creepingdeath]

Dirk, but I really hate those match-ups (not necessarily your fault, kblaze).

[1987_Lakers]

John Havlicek had GREAT longevity, but he was rarely considered a top 5 player in the league & Dave Cowens was the best player on those 70's Celtics championship teams once you look closer. I see Havlicek as a Scottie Pippen type of player, great all-around player, a champion, a top 5-8 player in the league, but not elite. I vote Dirk

[D.J.]

Hondo


How Dirk got past Baylor, I don't know.

[Carbine]

Dirk.

[Mr Know It All]

Dirk Nowitzki.

[FF1]

Dirk

Won without an all star.. Clutch as hell.

lol @ Rick Barry and Dr J ahead of these guys.

[Kblaze8855]

I think Hondo is up one right now. This is gonna be close. i'll give it the full 2 days.

[raiderfan19]

Im gonna be really sad if my vote is the one that makes dirk lose

[NugzHeat3]

Yeah, its 10-9 for Hondo at the moment.

[rhythmic]

I am in disbelief that Dirk was voted over Elgin Baylor.
I have never in my life witnessed a player climb the hierarchy faster then Dirk, just because of one championship. Especially considering he wasn't particularly all that great against Miami.

He had one of the most impressive playoff runs in league history. The road to glory was very challenging, and his performance was legendary. He was as efficient as a perimeter scorer could be, and he was clutch throughout. I am not disagreeing with anything he has achieved this past season; but as much as he did, it should not justify his place within the hierarchy.

I believe Dallas beating Miami had more to do with a collaborative effort by the team, rather then Dirk simply carrying them to victory. He honestly didn't impress me nearly as much as he did getting to the big stage. As a power-froward, he has never averaged a double-double in his career. Yes, he elevates his game in the playoffs but if we make this exception; then we should make these exceptions for every player. He is a solid passer, but nothing to write home about. His defense is actually good, well one aspect of it. I think there is a misconception about his defensive prowess because he is considered "soft" or "European". I personally think Dirk is a very good man-to-man defender, who avoids fouling the opposition and is quite instinctive. However, he is perhaps one of the worst defensive anchors at his position amongst all the truly great big man. His effort defensively is what I question most; he has poor awareness, does a lousy job boxing out and doesn't put in the effort at anchoring the post at all. Which is why Tyson Chandler was such a key addition, and I believe the main reason Dallas actually won the title.

In the past, Dirk would always score efficiently and step up in crucial moments; but he's never had that defensive anchor like Tyson. What I am getting at, is that Dirk never did his part defensively. For being their superstar and having the size to protect the paint; he never really put in the effort. I think that falls on him and in big part, why his team failed to win a title up until last year.

In comparison to Elgin Baylor; Dirk just was never as dominant. Beside his authenticity, how can anyone (who truly watched both players play) can conclude that Dirk was better then Elgin?

The guy has achieved so much more in this league (minus a championship) that it's just inconceivable to me that anyone would pick Dirk above Elgin. People will question Baylor's characteristics; claim he was never a winner, or some ball-hog, or that he wasn't as efficient. But wasn't that the critique Dirk faced for basically an entire decade, before finally winning a championship? Would Dirk lead a team to a title during the Russell era?

Baylor was a better scorer, passer & play-maker. There literally is nothing Dirk did better then Baylor besides shoot. He doesn't have as many personal accolades, nor led his team to as many NBA final appearances. Yeah perhaps it's a detriment to Baylor's career that he was never able to win a title even-though he led his team's to so many opportunities. But for an entire decade, Dirk had great teammates around him and he only managed to lead them to two NBA final appearances. Breaking-down their respective resumes', Elgin simply did a lot more in this league then Dirk.

I fail to see the criteria people used to justify that Dirk was better then Baylor. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

I pick Havlicek, by the way.
P.S. - I do believe that Havlicek, Dirk and Baylor should all be higher on this list (anywhere from 5th to 11th). I am anxious to see which players people picked above them on the list.

[FF1]

This list is going to get more and more embarrassing.

[Lebron23]

Havlicek

[brisbaneman]

Why pit two white ballers against one another? This is just wrong. They both get my vote.

[Fatal9]

Hondo having worse numbers as a 6th man type should be expected. But he was the leading scorer and an elite defender on what? 3 title teams? He did too much for me to lump him in as a sidekick type. I dont see how its much different than kobe with shaq. Except shaq was really his teams best offensive threat.

Hondo was out there dropping 40 point near triple doubles in closeout games and making epic shots and defensive plays to win rings.

He was putting in serious work from like 66 to the mid 70s. Too much to downplay for me.


Plus it was the 70s. Bigmen got the love. Ive heard from cowens mouth the celtics were hondos team and they looked to him for leadership and all. He was the captian face of the team and its leader. Im not sure its as simple as mvp votes to see whos team it was. Mvp voting has done some odd things. Look into ewing hakeem and isiah teammates votes some years.

Okay, so Hondo joining a team that had won what 4 championships in a row before he joined...and he was the sixth man putting up not even that great of sixth man numbers (this isn't like Manu putting up 20 a game on crazy shooting percentages in low number of minutes on a championship run). So Hondo had some nice closeout games, do we really need to look at Dirk's career when it comes to that?

Bigman got the love sure, but it isn't like it was ever though of as close. in the 60s he got votes for MVP in just one year...to finish 10th. it was Russell's team, there's no denying it, and he won 6 of his championships behind that putting up numbers worse than Ginobili has done for the Spurs. Then led the team to 34 wins after Russell left (just don't see Dirk-led team winning 34 wins in that specific league), then got Cowens and the Celtics become relevant again. He was nice in the '74 championship, but that same core won the championship again in '76 with him putting up 13/4/3 on 44% shooting. At some point you just have to accept he was in a really really fortunate position during his career. Championships are just not going to be a reason for me to rank Hondo in front of Dirk...he didn't play on the level of Dirk in the regular season, in the playoffs or in championship runs.

This is crazy to me, people might as well start putting Hondo in front of KG and the rest of the great PFs. This is a guy who can be considered the best player in the league, win you championship with role players vs. a guy who won half his championships as a sixth man, never had the same standing in the league, statistically didn't come close to performing at the same level, never was considered the best player on any of his teams that were relevant (though I'd say he has a solid argument for '74).

Again...for most of his career, I see him like the Ginobili of the era, with better defense and amazing longevity. Except for a couple of years he got to play a lot of minutes on a team that took the most shots in the league and get his raw stats up (adjusted stats not even that impressive), lead a team to the second worst record in the conference (during expansion years no less) when he was without the two players who were considered more valuable on his own teams. This is 12/5/2, 13/4/3, 16/4/3, 18/7/2...sometimes on shooting percentages that are even bad for the era (like 6-8% below league average some years). Bigman might have got the MVP love but he was finishing behind every major perimeter player in most years too...in their last championships Cowens, Jo Jo White, Paul Silas, all on his team, got more votes, and was tied in 9th with Norm Van Lier in the one year where you can say he was the best player on his championship team.

[Kblaze8855]

for one...if I were ranking him on his titles he would beb etter than every forward ever so...clearly im not.

And you keep mentioning some 13 or 14ppg shit as if its standard for him. For 8 straight playoff runs he put up:

24/9/4
27/8/3
26/9/8
25/10/6
27/8/6
24/5/5
27/6/6
21/5/5

He won titles in 4 of those seasons. This is an all nba first team legit year in year out superstar. Not some guy picking his spots and having a few big closeout games. In 68 he had 31 in game 5....40/10/7 to win the ring. the next year in the finals he had 37 , 43, and 34 in the first 3 games and decent to good games to end it(26 to lead the team in game 7).

Im not saying hes some super elite player but to say he was never considered the best on his good teams is just not something I buy. Even sitting aside that he was above Cowens in MVP voting when they won 56 and he put up 28/8/8....

He was probably among the most beloved and respected players ever. I have little doubt the fans considered it his team....Cowens himself said in what I think was vintage NBA that the players followed Hondo.

I dont think you could easily find people from the time saying Hondo was some kind of sidekick to Cowens. cowens may well have been better. hard to say. Ive thought he looked pretty good in the games of theirs I saw(the first that comes to mind was in the 74 finals...when Hondo went off and hit what would have been the title winning shot over Kareem in game 6).

deserved or not I suspect that Hondo was seen as that teams leader every second after Russell retired.

[jlauber]

Interesting...

In THEIR era, Baylor was easily considered the better player over Havlicek. Of course, Hondo played eight more seasons in the 70's.

Personally, I have Havlicek higher than Dirk on my all-time list, but it is not by a large margin. Hondo is around top-15, and Dirk is top-20.

I would give Hondo a close win.

[Big164]

NBA DRAFT

You have the #11 pick with Dirk and HOndo on the board......

WHo do you choose to start your team...Be honest.

[rhythmic]

NBA DRAFT

You have the #11 pick with Dirk and HOndo on the board......

WHo do you choose to start your team...Be honest.

I'll take the guy who could play defense at a high level; yet made as many All-NBA 1st/2nd team selections while filling the role of a 6th man for part of his career and playing alongside a better player (Russell) for a duration of his career. Havlicek was a more well-rounded player and was considered a superstar in his time, receiving more praise then Dirk has over their respective era; it's not to say I wouldn't pick Dirk if he fits my team better. There are certain scenarios where I'd rather have Dirk, and the gap isn't all that large to me. A couple of spots separate these two players on my forwards list. People are short-sighting Dirk's career, this guy received some well-deserved criticism for nearly a decade. After one championship, all of that washes away. It's just a skewed conception, in my opinion. I cannot believe there is people out there who believe this guy is all the sudden one of the twenty best basketball players of All-Time. Last year, Dirk erased all his doubters; but he didn't really change my perception of who he is. He simply had a great mix of players who complimented his ability, and negated his weaknesses well. Kidd, Marion & Chandler dedicated their efforts defensively, and Tyson was their defensive anchor. I believe that was the main reason Dirk could never overcome these personal demons, and he didn't last year. He just had players who allowed him to just shoot, shoot and shoot the ball. We all knew he could make the big shot, or shoot the ball efficient. Chandler took the responsibility of anchoring the post; something Dirk could never do in the past, when Dallas didn't have a guy of Tyson's abilities. He just never put in the effort defensively, and he still does not.

I'd pick Baylor over both of them.

[Big164]

I'll take the guy who could play defense at a high level; yet made as many All-NBA 1st/2nd team selections while filling the role of a 6th man for part of his career and playing alongside a better player (Russell) for a duration of his career. Havlicek was a more well-rounded player and was considered a superstar in his time, receiving more praise then Dirk has over their respective era; it's not to say I wouldn't pick Dirk if he fits my team better. There are certain scenarios where I'd rather have Dirk, and the gap isn't all that large to me. A couple of spots separate these two players on my forwards list. People are short-sighting Dirk's career, this guy received some well-deserved criticism for nearly a decade. After one championship, all of that washes away. It's just a skewed conception, in my opinion. I cannot believe there is people out there who believe this guy is all the sudden one of the twenty best basketball players of All-Time. Last year, Dirk erased all his doubters; but he didn't really change my perception of who he is. He simply had a great mix of players who complimented his ability, and negated his weaknesses well. Kidd, Marion & Chandler dedicated their efforts defensively, and Tyson was their defensive anchor. I believe that was the main reason Dirk could never overcome these personal demons, and he didn't last year. He just had players who allowed him to just shoot, shoot and shoot the ball. We all knew he could make the big shot, or shoot the ball efficient. Chandler took the responsibility of anchoring the post; something Dirk could never do in the past, when Dallas didn't have a guy of Tyson's abilities. He just never put in the effort defensively, and he still does not.

I'd pick Baylor over both of them.
Magic never put much effort defensively either are you going to rank Gary Payton over him because Garry played both ways? Give me a great specialist like Dirk or Russell any day over a hybrid player who is fairly decent at everything.

Hondo is a complimentary player. He won his 2 rings in the weakest era in basketball history(mid 1970s) A 3rd of the talent pool was siphoned to the ABA, including the best small forward on the planet.

Gun to your head.... youd seriously take a 6 foot 5 mildly athletic, 43% shooter over Dirk? Really???

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Only on Inside hoops can the 18th best player of all time be the 12th best forward all time.

Math apparently isn't a strong point for InsideHoops.

[Yung D-Will]

Only on Inside hoops can the 18th best player of all time be the 12th best forward all time.

Math apparently isn't a strong point for InsideHoops.

Usally ranking by position all time is gonna be more accurate on a forum than ranking all players all time. Just look at the other thread for example, we're so used to ranking Pf's all time that we basiclly just listed all the 4 pf's in a row (Barkley,Malone,Garnett,Dirk) Without taking into consideration everyone else.

[brain drain]

Here's what advanced stats say:

Hondo's PER
Best 5 regular seasons: 20.8, 20.1, 20.0, 19.2, 18.6


Nowitzki PER
Best 5 regular seasons: 28.1, 27.6, 26.1, 25.6, 24.6

Hondo PER
Best 5 playoffs: 20.8, 20.5, 19.9, 19.9, 19.7

Nowitzki PER
Best 5 playoffs: 28.4, 28.3, 27.5, 26.8, 26.3


ROFL, those two guys are not even in the same ballpark. In fact, Nowitzkis worst playoff PER (20.1) is better that all but two of Hondo's playoff PERs.


Hondo Win Shares/48,
Top 5 playoff seasons: 0.208, 0.175, 0.166, 0.161

Nowitzki Win Shares/48,
Top 5 playoff seasons: 0.291, 0.287, 0.263, 0.238, 0.210

Again, no comparison.


ROFL at everybody who's choosing Hondo.

Stats can be misleading, but this gap is so big that only the biggest of fools would say Hondo's the better player with a straight face.

Not to mention Hondo wasn't ever the top guy of his own team - which is consistent with his advanced stats. They look like the stats of a solid 2nd / very good 3rd option guy, but certainly not like the stats of the first option.

[DMAVS41]

This is one of those comparison that really all depends on the criteria. If you are ranking careers....then Hondo probably deserves the nod because he not only was a great player but played a huge role on 8 title teams.

If you were drafting a player to start a franchise.....and you had to decide between Hondo and Dirk. I just don't see a lot of solid and logical reasons to not pick Dirk before Hondo.

You know Dirk can be the best player on a title winning team and certainly has more of that #1 option game. You also know that Dirk could play a lesser role on a title team because his game just fits so well with just about any style. His shooting and ability to create a mismatch would always be extremely valuable.

Not sure Hondo could ever lead a team to a title without having multiple hall of famers or a pretty loaded roster. Not sure Hondo could lead a team like Dirk's mavs to 11 straight 50 plus win seasons. Maybe he could have, but we all know Dirk can.

Just depends on the criteria. I'll take Dirk as the player I'd pick to start my time, but I think Hondo had the better career.

[brain drain]

This is one of those comparison that really all depends on the criteria. If you are ranking careers....then Hondo probably deserves the nod because he not only was a great player but played a huge role on 8 title teams.

If you were drafting a player to start a franchise.....and you had to decide between Hondo and Dirk. I just don't see a lot of solid and logical reasons to not pick Dirk before Hondo.

You know Dirk can be the best player on a title winning team and certainly has more of that #1 option game. You also know that Dirk could play a lesser role on a title team because his game just fits so well with just about any style. His shooting and ability to create a mismatch would always be extremely valuable.

Not sure Hondo could ever lead a team to a title without having multiple hall of famers or a pretty loaded roster. Not sure Hondo could lead a team like Dirk's mavs to 11 straight 50 plus win seasons. Maybe he could have, but we all know Dirk can.

Just depends on the criteria. I'll take Dirk as the player I'd pick to start my time, but I think Hondo had the better career.


How has he had the "better career"? That's like saying Robert Horry had a better career than Charles Barkley because he won titles.

You can't use # of rings when you compare a 1st option to a #2 or #3 option.

[Gotterdammerung]

Havlicek: 16 years, 13 quality, 13 All-Stars, 74 Finals MVP. Top 5 in 71 - 74, Top 10 in 64, 66, 68 - 70, 75, 76. 4 times All-NBA, 7 times 2nd team, 8 times All-Defense, peaked 3 years with 27 ppg, 9 reb & 8 assists.

He had no holes in his game. Had no trouble switching roles in the blink of an eye: from a slick playmaker to a physical inside player. When he was playing 30 minutes per game he didn't have to worry abt fouls or stamina, so he played at an even faster rate than he did as a starter. Thus off the bench Havlicek supecharged the celts' running game. He was Manu Ginobili but only bigger, & tougher, and utterly tireless.

Bill Simmons says he is the exclusive member of the "totally underrated cuz he was white" club.

Dirk? He had greater range, but that's about it.
John Havlicek was better at everything else: clutch, toughness, passing, defense, running any type of offense, leadership, winning, etc., etc.

[brain drain]

He had no holes in his game.

Yes he had holes.
Scoring for example. He was a very inefficient at it.

Think about Antoine Walker level of inefficiency and you're about right.
Oh, wait, he was even less efficient than Antoine Walker (Reg Season career eFG: Hondo 43.9%, Toine 46.1%; Career playoff eFG: Hondo: 43.6%, Toine: 46.3%).

[brain drain]

Dirk? He had greater range, but that's about it.

Yeah, that's about it, besides being a vastly superior scorer and rebounder. And besides being able to lead a team to a title as the #1 option without another all star.

[DMAVS41]

How has he had the "better career"? That's like saying Robert Horry had a better career than Charles Barkley because he won titles.

You can't use # of rings when you compare a 1st option to a #2 or #3 option.

No, its not the same thing at all. This Horry argument is a joke. Hondo made like 12 all nba teams and finished top 10 in mvp voting like 5 times. If you had read my post, you'd see that I said his 8 rings combined with the fact that he was a huge part of each one and sometimes the best player in the finals....that is why.

Horry was nowhere ever close to the player that Hondo was. Just a horrible argument.

The dude was one of the best players of his era and he played a huge part in 8 titles. Yes, I think he had a better career than Dirk.

However, I think Dirk was probably the better player. As I explained above. But don't bring some BS about Horry in here...just a horribly flawed argument.

[Fazotronic]

Dirk Nowitzki

[97 bulls]

No, its not the same thing at all. This Horry argument is a joke. Hondo made like 12 all nba teams and finished top 10 in mvp voting like 5 times. If you had read my post, you'd see that I said his 8 rings combined with the fact that he was a huge part of each one and sometimes the best player in the finals....that is why.

Horry was nowhere ever close to the player that Hondo was. Just a horrible argument.

The dude was one of the best players of his era and he played a huge part in 8 titles. Yes, I think he had a better career than Dirk.

However, I think Dirk was probably the better player. As I explained above. But don't bring some BS about Horry in here...just a horribly flawed argument.
I agree. Look at it this way. Could the lakers win their championships without horry? Yes. Could the celtics win their championships without havlicek? No. Maybe they'd lose a few. But defintely not all 8.

And I don't mean replacing them with players of similar talent. I mean removing the two players all together from their respective teams. Remving hondo changes the dynamic of the celtics. Removing horry from the lakers? Not so much.

[Miller for 3]

Dirk. Better in his prime, one of the best playoff players ever, and by the time his career ends, his longevity will probably be Malone/Kareem like.

[Gotterdammerung]

Yes he had holes.
Scoring for example. He was a very inefficient at it.

Think about Antoine Walker level of inefficiency and you're about right.
Oh, wait, he was even less efficient than Antoine Walker (Reg Season career eFG: Hondo 43.9%, Toine 46.1%; Career playoff eFG: Hondo: 43.6%, Toine: 46.3%).
Dishonest.

eFG% is a stat that applies only after 1980. This is your opportunity to grow a brain and figure out why.

Stats do not demonstrate who was the better shooter. Otherwise, per your logic, Artis Gilmore is the greatest shooter in league history.

Try again, but without trolling. :no:

[Gotterdammerung]

Yeah, that's about it, besides being a vastly superior scorer and rebounder. And besides being able to lead a team to a title as the #1 option without another all star.

False and irrelevant. 1 title as the #1 scoring option is much less impressive than the fact that Hondo has 8 titles and most of them as the #1 option. :facepalm

Hondo was more dominant for a longer period of time (see his top 5-10 rankings) and much better at everything else (rebounded better for his height than the 7 footer).

[Kblaze8855]

Not a first option? Gotta think of something else to call what Hondo was.

He was the leading scorer and playoff scorer on 3 title teams. He was the second best player to bigmen known for defense. But he was the first option. He was the Celtics teams leading scorer like 6 years in a row. In 74 not only was he the celtics leading scorer he shot better than Cowens too.

He was a first option for many great teams at least 3 of them title teams. he put up 25 a game over 7 post seasons in his prime. Sam Jones only got to 25 a game in 2 playoffs runs. Cowens never got to 22.

Difference between best player and first option. And you could easily argue he was both for much of his career and on at least 1 title team. 27/6/6 on 48% shooting in the 74 playoffs and the finals MVP? After an all nba first team season? Where cowens put up 21/13 on .435 in the playoffs?

These days people would call that Hondos team. Not that they didnt then too. Almost anything you find will call Hondo the leader. And the players would too......

[Big164]

Cant believe people are choosing

-6 foot 5
-Mildly athletic
-43% career shooter


Hondo would be lucky to even get drafted in todays league.

[Kblaze8855]

He was 38 years old putting up 16/4/4 as an all star(no doubt off his name though) vs the same players Magic and Bird played. Bird was drafted a month or so after Hondo retired. His teammate Cowens put up 14/8 on the Celtics with Bird just as he retired. At least 5 players in Hondos last all star game were also on all star teams with Jordan.

Hondo wasnt really that long ago. If hes at least a borderline all star vs the same quality of opponent Bird and Magic are respected for playing when they won their first rings....and he was 38? No reason to assume prime Hondo wouldnt be good in the 80s.

[Gotterdammerung]

http://thxforthe.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/DoubleFacePalm2.jpg

Can't believe clowns on the internet knows more than the following: SLAM, Bill Simmons, Elliot Kalb, Charley Rosen, GOAT :facepalm

SLAM ranked Havlicek 17th all time
Bill Simmons, 13th
Kalb, 24th
Rosen, 2nd greatest small forward of all time
GOAT, 16th. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4137090&postcount=981)

[Big164]

He was 38 years old putting up 16/4/4 as an all star(no doubt off his name though) vs the same players Magic and Bird played. Bird was drafted a month or so after Hondo retired. His teammate Cowens put up 14/8 on the Celtics with Bird just as he retired. At least 5 players in Hondos last all star game were also on all star teams with Jordan.

Hondo wasnt really that long ago. If hes at least a borderline all star vs the same quality of opponent Bird and Magic are respected for playing when they won their first rings....and he was 38? No reason to assume prime Hondo wouldnt be good in the 80s.


There were like 9 different champions in a 6 year span when Hondo was putting up those numbers. Seriously, Mickey Mouse couldve put up stats and won titles under those conditions.

Magic and Bird played in a fully merged NBA/ABA with Dr J. Theres no comparison.

[PTB Fan]

Dishonest.

eFG% is a stat that applies only after 1980. This is your opportunity to grow a brain and figure out why.

Stats do not demonstrate who was the better shooter. Otherwise, per your logic, Artis Gilmore is the greatest shooter in league history.

Try again, but without trolling. :no:

Actually Shaq is No.1 by 0.3% better :D

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/efg_pct_career.html

[Tha Catalyst]

Hondo

[Gotterdammerung]

Actually Shaq is No.1 by 0.3% better :D

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/efg_pct_career.html
:D
ABA/NBA, aye, but NBA alone, the A-Train pumped in .599. A full .167 ahead of the Diesel.

[Kblaze8855]

There were like 9 different champions in a 6 year span when Hondo was putting up those numbers. Seriously, Mickey Mouse couldve put up stats and won titles under those conditions.

Magic and Bird played in a fully merged NBA/ABA with Dr J. Theres no comparison.


Ah so when Hondo is an 18ppg 36-37 year old who knocks Gervin out of the playoffs that doesnt count but when MAgic does it does count? When Hondo plays a team like Dr.Js 76ers(who I suppose you thought he wasnt around for) it doesnt count but when 3 of that teams 4 best players are good(all star level) in the 80s....it counts for Bird magic and Jordan to beat them? Paul westphal being Hondos backup for years but all NBa first team with Magic and Bird...Paul learned to play in what? 1979? Did he not know how when he was losing in the 76 finals to the Celtics at age 25?

The league did not just swap out 250 players from the 70s to the 80s. It was largely the same guys. Magic and Bird won rings vs the same people Hondo was an all star with. Hell people Hondo was on an all star team with led teams to the finals vs both Magic and Bird.

Hondo was a star in 1965 and many years past his prime was still one vs the same players Bird and Magic played. Im not gonna pretend he was some relic from the 50s who melted like wet cotton candy once the league got real.

If he can drop 18 a game on teams led by stars of the 80s...when hes 37...he can play in the 80s in his prime.

[bizil]

I think I gotta roll with Hondo on this one. In GOAT terms (team accolades, solo accolades, numbers, longevity being great) Dirk isn't as accomplished with the team success part so that gives Hondo the edge. But in terms of peak value or who I would take its close. Dirk is such a great and revolutionary scorer and that is a premium. But a guy like Hondo who is a great scorer and great all around player impacts a game more in my book. So I would take Hondo over Dirk peak value wise too. However, it takes a great all around player who is a great scorer like Hondo, Bron, Bird, Barry, etc. to supercede a tremendous scorer like a Dirk. It's why I prefer PF's like Duncan, KG, and Barkley over Dirk as well. They were more well rounded did the typical PF duties great. Even though Barkley wasn't as good on D as Duncan and KG, he was a great rebounder.

[FF1]

This list is going to go from bad to worse when we see the players coming up.

Just horrible. Not a surprise, considering how biased the thread maker is.

Wish we could poll the GMs to see who they would pick right now. I bet 80% or more would pick Dirk. Probably higher.

[Kblaze8855]

Even if I cared who won(and I dont) I didnt set the order and ive never so much as voted. So im not sure what my bias would even do. The count GOAT did of just the people he thought I should have counted(I counted far more lists to set the order) is:


1. Bird
2. Duncan
3. Dr. J
4. Malone
5. Pettit
6. Barkley
7. Garnett
8. Baylor
9. Hondo
10. Dirk
11. Barry
12. LeBron
13. Pippen
14. McHale
15. Hayes
16. Schayes
17. Nique
18. Rodman
19. Worthy
20. Pierce
21. DeBusschere
22. Cunningham
23. Lucas
24. Arizin
25. King
26. Webber
27. English
28. Dantley
29. Gasol


So Dirk would be at best 10 if we are assuming Hondo wins and that he would have beaten Lebron(who knows either way on those). Hes in a vote for 11th now and may go to 10th or 9th. Pretty much everyone is in the same range. Lebron and Barry are higher(Barry is above lebron in the list I have). And Baylor a good bit lower. But everyone is in pretty much the same area.

If I wanted to list to go the way I think it should id have probably been voting. Especially for Pippen in a vote so close I had to recount 3 times to call it.

[RRR3]

This list is going to go from bad to worse when we see the players coming up.

Just horrible. Not a surprise, considering how biased the thread maker is.

Wish we could poll the GMs to see who they would pick right now. I bet 80% or more would pick Dirk. Probably higher.

Wait, you think Kblaze is biased? :facepalm Not everyone is in love with Dirk, get over it. :banghead:

[jlauber]

This is one of those comparison that really all depends on the criteria. If you are ranking careers....then Hondo probably deserves the nod because he not only was a great player but played a huge role on 8 title teams.

If you were drafting a player to start a franchise.....and you had to decide between Hondo and Dirk. I just don't see a lot of solid and logical reasons to not pick Dirk before Hondo.

You know Dirk can be the best player on a title winning team and certainly has more of that #1 option game. You also know that Dirk could play a lesser role on a title team because his game just fits so well with just about any style. His shooting and ability to create a mismatch would always be extremely valuable.

Not sure Hondo could ever lead a team to a title without having multiple hall of famers or a pretty loaded roster. Not sure Hondo could lead a team like Dirk's mavs to 11 straight 50 plus win seasons. Maybe he could have, but we all know Dirk can.

Just depends on the criteria. I'll take Dirk as the player I'd pick to start my time, but I think Hondo had the better career.

:cheers:

[Big164]

Ah so when Hondo is an 18ppg 36-37 year old who knocks Gervin out of the playoffs that doesnt count but when MAgic does it does count? When Hondo plays a team like Dr.Js 76ers(who I suppose you thought he wasnt around for) it doesnt count but when 3 of that teams 4 best players are good(all star level) in the 80s...
I was referring to Hondo's 1974 and 1976 rings. Was he really the champion those years or was it Dr J who won the same years in the ABA? The one season they shared,Dr J booted Hondo from the playoffs.

So Hondo gravy trains Sam/Russell for the first half of his career and flourishes in a divided, handicapped league for the 2nd half. At which point was he transcendent or impressive?

What year was Hondo the best SF on the planet? The way Dirk was best PF in 2006 and 2011.

[Kblaze8855]

I was referring to Hondo's 1974 and 1976 rings. Was he really the champion those years or was it Dr J who won the same years in the ABA? The one season they shared,Dr J booted Hondo from the playoffs.

Was he really the champion? Yea...I dont find that worth discussion.

As for Doc beating him in the playoffs....he was 37. Doc was 26. And Philly was supposed to win it all that year.


So Hondo gravy trains Sam/Russell for the first half of his career and flourishes in a divided, handicapped league for the 2nd half. At which point was he transcendent or impressive?

If you are telling me its unimpressive to have the career he had, do the numbers he did and have a 9 year run(only 2 with Russell) of either making the finals and winning it all or getting to within a win of the finals 7 of the 9 years....thats on you.



What year was Hondo the best SF on the planet? The way Dirk was best PF in 2006 and 2011.

Not that I find it terribly important....but ok.

Since you seem to want to push for Doc over hondo(something I have no issue with...its Dr.J afterall) I suppose if I tell you when he was likely ranked over any other in the NBA you will say Doc was better. At which point id have to ask..

And?

Two or three superstars existing at once at one position doesnt mean that #2 and #3 are worse than the best player at some other position. Besides Marques Johnson, Westphal(Hondos backup before he was taken in an expansion draft I believe), and some others made all NBA teams over Doc in his prime so its not like It was impossible for a uy like Hondo to have been ranked over him were he not so old at the time.

And id like to add...

Ive not even said Dirk is worse than Hondo was. I said last vote I thought Dirk would win this matchup. Im not overly concerned with it. Anyone this high could beat just about anyone else short of the top 2 and its not worth being outraged.

[Big164]

Was he really the champion? Yea...I dont find that worth discussion.

When the best players in the world dont even play in your league, how can you call yourself a world champion? The 76 Nets actually challenged the Celtics in a winner take all match and the cowardly Celtics declined. Celts had a losing record against ABA teams during interleague exhibitions so thats understandable.

Bottom line is, Dr J, Rick Barry, and Elgin Baylor were the premiere SFs during HOndos time. Hondo was never the best.

[Fatal9]

for one...if I were ranking him on his titles he would beb etter than every forward ever so...clearly im not.

And you keep mentioning some 13 or 14ppg shit as if its standard for him. For 8 straight playoff runs he put up:

24/9/4
27/8/3
26/9/8
25/10/6
27/8/6
24/5/5
27/6/6
21/5/5

He won titles in 4 of those seasons. This is an all nba first team legit year in year out superstar. Not some guy picking his spots and having a few big closeout games. In 68 he had 31 in game 5....40/10/7 to win the ring. the next year in the finals he had 37 , 43, and 34 in the first 3 games and decent to good games to end it(26 to lead the team in game 7).

Im not saying hes some super elite player but to say he was never considered the best on his good teams is just not something I buy. Even sitting aside that he was above Cowens in MVP voting when they won 56 and he put up 28/8/8....

He was probably among the most beloved and respected players ever. I have little doubt the fans considered it his team....Cowens himself said in what I think was vintage NBA that the players followed Hondo.

I dont think you could easily find people from the time saying Hondo was some kind of sidekick to Cowens. cowens may well have been better. hard to say. Ive thought he looked pretty good in the games of theirs I saw(the first that comes to mind was in the 74 finals...when Hondo went off and hit what would have been the title winning shot over Kareem in game 6).

deserved or not I suspect that Hondo was seen as that teams leader every second after Russell retired.

I'm mentioning them because if people are going to use championships as a reason, then they better look at what role he had in each of them. Half of them, to be blunt, nothing more than a role player. Not even what people call "side-kick" rings, but "you were probably replaceable with a non-all-star player" rings. And some of the playoff runs you listed down would get Dirk laughed at if he put up those numbers...21/5/5 on 43%, 24/5/5, 24/9/4 on under 41% shooting (bad even for that time)...aside from '07, these would be literally Dirk's worst playoff runs. That alone should explain the different standard these two are judged on historically. And again, minutes and pace needs to be taken into account when you're looking at his raw statlines. It's a ripe setting for numbers getting inflated, you have a perimeter player who is taking almost as many shots as he is scoring points in some years while playing on the fastest team in the league (in the 70s at least) while playing 45+ minutes...he better put up some damn good raw statlines (what do you think Dirk in that sort of a setting is putting up?). And I guarantee if we look at their best games in elimination, closeout or any sort of pivotal games...Dirk is coming out on top.

Again, was his role on most of his title teams anything more than Manu's has been in the last couple of the Spurs championships? You could say '74 was the year where he had argument as best player (though Cowens got way more MVP love, and outplayed KAJ in the game 7 on the road to get them the title), but that same core of Cowens/Silas/White won a title in '76 with him putting up 13/4/2 on 44% (in 34 minutes). The same Celtic core he won 6 championships with, won 5 before he joined them, won when he led them in scoring and won when he didn't. When the leader of that team left and Cowens hadn't arrived, Hondo put up a pretty raw statline of 24/8/7 but on a team that was second last in the conference (3 games from being worst)...from NBA champion to that overnight and some people sell him as the best or most valuable player of the '68 and '69 teams.

That said, whenever I watch him play his skillset (and ability to make clutch shots with defenders all over) always makes me respect him, his off hand (ability to make shots with it) in particular always impresses me when I see his mid-late 70s games. It's not like I'm saying he is some lucky role player, I know what he did in other playoff runs, appreciate how long he did it, his skills...it's the reason I have him in my top 30 (I can see how it may sound like I wouldn't even consider him top 50 or something through some earlier posts, but when making a case against someone, it's hard not to come off as dismissive). But I'm not for people putting players on a level where they don't belong...maybe someone can make arguments to convince me, but from everything I know and see, he is not on the level of Dirk as a player. It's funny because if this was Pippen vs. Dirk, this would be a huge win for Dirk (despite Pippen being more versatile, playing on 6 championship teams...often contributing more than Hondo did on average) because people know enough about them that they wouldn't see them on the same level as players...but go back another 30 years? Apparently people can't apply the same concept.

[jlauber]

When the best players in the world dont even play in your league, how can you call yourself a world champion? The 76 Nets actually challenged the Celtics in a winner take all match and the cowardly Celtics declined. Celts had a losing record against ABA teams during interleague exhibitions so thats understandable.

Bottom line is, Dr J, Rick Barry, and Elgin Baylor were the premiere SFs during HOndos time. Hondo was never the best.

I have to agree with this. Havlicek was never considered even close to the best player in the game at any point in his career. He was seldom even the best player on his own team.

Having said that, though, he was more than just a contributor to his EIGHT rings. He was probably Boston's best player in the post-season in '67, '68, '69, '72, and '74 (FMVP)...THREE of them champions.

IMHO, he is probably the most difficult player to rank among the all-time "greats" because of those facts. There are legitimate arguments both for, and against him, in these top-10 thru top-25 discussions.

Hondo's career reminds me somewhat of Hakeem's (except that Havlicek had FAR more team success.) Hakeem was seldom even ranked in the top-5 in HIS era, and was not even considered a top-10 player in nearly HALF of his 18 seasons, and yet, he has become the most over-rated player on the forum, and some have even ranked him in their top-5.

[Fatal9]

also I saw some people voting for this matchup in the wrong thread (the Baylor vs. Dirk one) and they actually wrote out their reasoning instead of dropping only a name and exiting the thread. may need to count those.

[nycelt84]

It should be noted that even though Cowens won MVP in '73 it was Havlicek getting injured in the playoffs that was the key reason that they lost to the Knicks. Havlicek was hurt in the '76 playoffs as well but he gutted it out and that was the main reason his numbers weren't as good in the '76 season.

[kizut1659]

26. Webber
25. Dantley
24. King
23. Cunningham
22. Worthy
21. Jerry Lucas
20.Paul Pierce
19.Dolph Schayes
18.Paul Arizin
17.Dennis Rodman
16.Dominique Wilkins
15. Elvin Hayes
14. Kevin Mchale
13. Pippen
12. Baylor



I keep messing up the number in the first posts because I was thrown off on like #16 and the list I work off of on my desktop is off because of it. This is the vote for #11 not 12.

Hmmm I am not sure I understand your rubric. What if someone thinks that both Dirk and Havlicek are in top 10? How did you determine to make them battle for 11? Who else can be above them besides Bird, Duncan, Petit, Erving, Garnett, Barkley, and Malone? (and I would put Havlicek above all but Bird and Duncan, and Dirk at least above Petit and Barkley)

[PTB Fan]

What year was Hondo the best SF on the planet? The way Dirk was best PF in 2006 and 2011.

69, 70, 71 and 72.

68 and 73 could be argued as well.

[bizil]

Even though many say Barry, Baylor, and Dr.J are better than Hondo, on a GOAT SF list many will have Hondo as high as number three. And that's due to his resume. A peak value and GOAT list are two different entities. Hondo is the most well rounded player out of the group with him, Barry, Baylor, and Doc. And Havlicek was a Batman level offensive threat. But peak value wise, I can see Barry, Baylor, and Doc over Hondo. But in GOAT terms, Hondo in my book is the number three or four SF ever. I think Bird and Doc are 1 and 2.

[L.Kizzle]

69, 70, 71 and 72.

68 and 73 could be argued as well.
The years Rick Arry jumped ship to the ABA ad when Baylor got old. Cunningham could be argued a few of those seasons.

[Kblaze8855]

I guess I need to count now....

[Kblaze8855]

I believe its hondo by 4 starting from where it was 10-9 in his favor. But ill check again from the start before we move on. I feel it was closer than that...

Perhaps some of the pro Dirk people didnt actually vote. If its obvious who they were going for ill count that but id have to look closer than I just did.

[Kblaze8855]

I was about to make the new topic(Hondo vs Lebron) but saw this:


also I saw some people voting for this matchup in the wrong thread (the Baylor vs. Dirk one) and they actually wrote out their reasoning instead of dropping only a name and exiting the thread. may need to count those.


I suppose ill look into that to avoid all the angry Mavs fans claiming rig.

[raiderfan19]

How close is it?

[Kblaze8855]

Adding the guy from the Baylor topic who argued Dirk over hondo I think its Hondo by 3.

[Brunch@Five]

I'd have loved to vote for Dirk, but Havlicek seemed more reasonable to me. Oh well.

[PTB Fan]

Regardless of who advances between the two, who do they face next?

[kentatm]

Dirk is German Moses so he gets my vote until he hits Basketball Jesus.

[FF1]

wait...


LeBron is next? Are you f**king kidding?

[Kblaze8855]

Im not sure if you are upset hes so high or so low so ill just tell you this......i just went to the initial ranking topic and this is where the first group of lists i looked at had him:




10
9
6
7
5
11
3
5
7 and so on.


Direct you annoyance to the many voters.