Hakeem Olajuwon: 28/13/7/4/5 vs. Bulls (1992)

[Round Mound]

The Dream Would Destroy Todays Centers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-FbhBM9uvU&feature=related

[Gotterdammerung]

Just like he destroyed Barkley's Suns in '94 and '95, right? :oldlol:

Beautiful rejection of Pippen's swooping dunk. :applause:

Gorgeous bank-shot off a turnaround fade at the 7:00 minute mark. :eek:

[EnoughSaid]

Some smooth moves in the post. This dude has been my favorite player of all time for a looong time now. :applause: :bowdown:

[The Iron Fist]

Rockets would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan in 94.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Rockets would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan in 94.

Keep dreaming lol.

[305Baller]

The Dream with that sweet fadeaway.
And is that a rookie Horry?

[The Iron Fist]

Keep dreaming lol.
Look up the head to head matchups between the Rockets and the Bulls from 91 to 93.

[Tha Catalyst]

Keep dreaming lol.
Why? Bulls lost Grant didn't they? Many people seem to think Rockets in 94 would have gotten by the Bulls. Bulls had been to 3 straight finals they would have tired eventually.

On another note, young Horry was athletic!

[millwad]

Why? Bulls lost Grant didn't they? Many people seem to think Rockets in 94 would have gotten by the Bulls. Bulls had been to 3 straight finals they would have tired eventually.

On another note, young Horry was athletic!

Bulls lost Grant in '95, but anyway, I really think the Rockets would have had a shot in '94 vs the Bulls. Jordan and his boys always had a hard time vs the Rockets, although I don't put much faith in regular season record, but the Rockets proved they could beat the Bulls plenty of times.

[Smoke117]

I don't think the Rockets could have beat the Bulls. Scottie Pippen was a top 5 player by then and defensively him and Horace Grant were much better than they were in 92. The Scottie Pippen of 94 and the Scottie Pippen of 92 defensively really are two different specimens. Yeah he was already first team in 92, but it's 94 and 95 when he really makes his claim as the greatest perimeter defender of all time, but despite that perimeter label it's those years that he really started to become more dominant as a help defender inside. It isn't like that Rockets team really has anyone he really has to stay on so his main assignment would be as the double man on Hakeem and basically to make it a nightmare for Hakeem. Besides that, they add Kukoc that season, B.J. Armstrong is in his prime, Horace Grant is in his prime, they have the best player in the league Michael Jordan and another top 5 player Scottie Pippen...I don't really see the 94 Rockets taking a 7 game series from This Bulls team. They would just be too talented and too tenacious defensively. I might even go with a game plan of playing Hakeem straight up and just shutting everyone else down. With The defensive force Pippen was in 94, how good Jordan was, and how good Grant was they could easily make it a nightmare for the rest of a 94 Rocket's team with no stars that could not deal the defense those three would bring game in game out in a 7 game series.

As far as people saying the Bulls would be tired...the 94 Bulls didn't look very tired to me and frankly I'd have expected to them to just coast during the regular season of 94 anyway if Jordan was around. It's like how Charles Barkley always called the regular season "the preseason". By the time the playoffs rolled around, it would be all business for the Bulls. I just don't find it plausible for a team with players as good as Jordan and Pippen in 94 and a team as talented as that 94 Bulls team would have been to be able to lose to the 94 Rockets. Now the 95 Rockets with Drexler...now he adds some intrigue, but the 94 Rockets? I don't even think it would gone passed five games.

People can go on and on about those regular season Rocket wins in the early 90s, but in a 7 game playoff series the 94 Rockets are not winning shit against the 94 Bulls with Jordan.

[NugzHeat3]

Why? Bulls lost Grant didn't they? Many people seem to think Rockets in 94 would have gotten by the Bulls. Bulls had been to 3 straight finals they would have tired eventually.

On another note, young Horry was athletic!
No, Bulls lost Grant in 1995.

The Rockets could have beat them though. They could have actually matched up in 1993 and beat them.

[jlauber]

Rockets would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan in 94.

Yeah...as it was the Bulls went 55-27, and lost a close game seven in the playoffs against the Knicks, who lost a close game seven against the Rockets in the Finals.

I just don't see a player of MJ's caliber making enough difference under those circumstances...

:facepalm

[Fatal9]

Yeah...as it was the Bulls went 55-27, and lost a close game seven in the playoffs against the Knicks, who lost a close game seven against the Rockets in the Finals.

I just don't see a player of MJ's caliber making enough difference under those circumstances...

:facepalm
That's not how playoff matchups work idiot.

[jlauber]

That's not how playoff matchups work idiot.

Maybe, maybe not...but I find it interesting that Chicago outscored the Knicks in their seven game series, and the Knicks outscored the Rockets in their seven game Finals...and virtually all games were close.

I find it hard to believe that the BEST player in the game would not have made enough of a difference to overcome whatever SLIGHT edge the Rockets would have had against the MJ-less Bulls in that post-season.

BTW, that was certainly not a great Knick team that barely lost that seven game series against the Rockets. They actually only had ONE exceptional player, in Ewing. Furthermore, the Rockets went 58-24, while NY came in at 56-26. Meanwhile, the Bulls, WITHOUT MJ, were at 55-27.

I just can't fathom a PRIME MJ not EASILY leading that Bulls team to a title.

[bwink23]

Look up the head to head matchups between the Rockets and the Bulls from 91 to 93.


Just like the year Jordan hit "The Shot" huh....apparently you didn't know the Bulls lost ALL 6 games to the Cavs during the regular season that year. REGULAR SEASON and PLAYOFFS are 2 different animals.

[The Iron Fist]

Just like the year Jordan hit "The Shot" huh....apparently you didn't know the Bulls lost ALL 6 games to the Cavs during the regular season that year. REGULAR SEASON and PLAYOFFS are 2 different animals.
and yet,
its 3 different seasons worth of work.

Sometimes, the team that was better in the rs, was better in the po too.

[millwad]

Maybe, maybe not...but I find it interesting that Chicago outscored the Knicks in their seven game series, and the Knicks outscored the Rockets in their seven game Finals...and virtually all games were close.

I find it hard to believe that the BEST player in the game would not have made enough of a difference to overcome whatever SLIGHT edge the Rockets would have had against the MJ-less Bulls in that post-season.

BTW, that was certainly not a great Knick team that barely lost that seven game series against the Rockets. They actually only had ONE exceptional player, in Ewing. Furthermore, the Rockets went 58-24, while NY came in at 56-26. Meanwhile, the Bulls, WITHOUT MJ, were at 55-27.

I just can't fathom a PRIME MJ not EASILY leading that Bulls team to a title.

Biggest load of crap ever, it's all about match-ups and the Rockets matched up pretty well against the Bulls. And not only that, MJ himself considered the Rockets and Olajuwon his toughest opponent.

And still, it's not like that the Bulls always crushed the Knicks. The 67-15 Bulls won it in game 7 in the playoffs vs the Knicks two years prior to the '94 season and it's not like that the Knicks that season was anything greater than two years later, they only managed to win 51 games in the regular season.

And in the season after that they won it in a 6 games series vs the Knicks and one of those games was a really close one.

Talk all you want but the Rockets beat every team in the Western the Bulls faced in the finals.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ these clowns thinking the Rockets beat the Bulls in '94 when the Bulls have the best player, by far the better second option, far better third option, better role players, more championship experience, better coaching, better system etc. These people are delusional.

Jordan >= Dream
Pippen >>>> any Rocket
Grant ~= Thorpe
Bulls role players > Rockets role players (especially if they have Kukoc, but even if they don't)
PJax and crew > Rudy T and crew
Triangle offense > basic post offense
Bulls experience >>> Rockets experience

[NugzHeat3]

lol @ these clowns thinking the Rockets beat the Bulls in '94 when the Bulls have the best player, by far the better second option, far better third option, better role players, more championship experience, better coaching, better system etc. These people are delusional.

Jordan >= Dream
Pippen >>>> any Rocket
Grant ~= Thorpe
Bulls role players > Rockets role players (especially if they have Kukoc, but even if they don't)
PJax and crew > Rudy T and crew
Triangle offense > basic post offense
Bulls experience >>> Rockets experience
Terrible argument that was shredded earlier in a Bulls vs Rockets thread.

I remember you had no response to that. Wonder why.

[Fatal9]

Terrible argument that was shredded earlier in a Bulls vs Rockets thread.

I remember you had no response to that. Wonder why.
You can literally do that for most of the teams Hakeem beat throughout his career :facepalm

using his laughable "player x >>>> player y" analysis, Mavs shouldn't have made it past the second round last year. or the wcf. or won the finals. you can use that method to analyze the talent a team possesses but when you get to championship level teams, all that stuff goes out the window.


anyways I don't care as much about there not being a '94 Bulls vs. Rockets finals as much as I do about them not meeting in '93.

[ElPigto]

IF its one thing NBA fans were robbed off by the basketball gods is not having a Rockets vs Bulls finals with both Hakeem and Jordan in their prime.

[Bigsmoke]

lol The Rockets in 95 might beat the 94 Bulls but 94 Rockets?

[NugzHeat3]

You can literally do that for most of the teams Hakeem beat throughout his career :facepalm

using his laughable "player x >>>> player y" analysis, Mavs shouldn't have made it past the second round last year. or the wcf. or won the finals. you can use that method to analyze the talent a team possesses but when you get to championship level teams, all that stuff goes out the window.


anyways I don't care as much about there not being a '94 Bulls vs. Rockets finals as much as I do about them not meeting in '93.
Ditto.

You can use it for the Mavs this year in the finals like you said and I remember using the exact same analysis for a 1994 Rockets vs Suns comparison where the Suns had a superior starter on paper at every position except for C, superior second option, superior third option ect. They had more championship experience based on their finals appearance an year earlier, they had a better bench on paper thanks to AC Green and Danny Ainge. But they still lost the series despite being up 2-0 going BACK TO PHX while the Rockets actually had the pressure shifted towards them with their paper calling them Choke City cause of blowing two huge leads.

I feel the exact same way about the 1993 match up too. I liked the two finals in 1994 and 1995 because of the center match ups. And I liked Orlando.

I think Houston could have got them that year but the Bulls were motivated to three peat because Jordan knew that's something Isiah, Magic and Bird never accomplished and felt it was a way to seperate himself from them. Hakeem was motivated to turning his career around after all the problems he went through. Would have been a great series to say the least. I have no doubt they give them a tougher match up than the Suns and Knicks as hard as that may be to believe. Rockets would have to rely a lot on their starters though since their bench was a little subpar. It was a little better the year after with Mario Elie and Sam Cassell.

[swi7ch]

#1 center in my book

[Smoke117]

Just a note on what I was saying earlier, the two games the Bulls and Rockets played in the 1994 season they split though one of them is automatically defunct as it was at the beginning of the season during Pippen's 10 injury stint of missed games. The 2nd game the Bulls won 82-76. This is kind of the point I was trying to make in my post earlier about allowing Hakeem to go off and shutting down the rest of the scrubs. As everyone knows the 94 Bulls were an great defensive team and that's mainly how they won games and that's how they won this game and here is Hakeem's statline: 29pts 10rebs 4assist 8to's 12/19fg 5/10ft 2stls. The rest of the team? They shot 32%. On the other hand Scottie's statline was: 25pts 12rebs 6assist 3to's 1sts 1blk 12/21fg 1/2ft. He had a bit more of help, but this was obviously two star players who anchored two tough defensive teams that weren't extremely offensively talented. The Bulls were more so, but Pippen had no real 2nd option, and Scottie Pippen obviously wasn't the first option that Hakeem Olajuwon was. This the reason though that I said that if somehow the 1994 Bulls had made it to the finals they could have made it competitive themselves WITHOUT Jordan. The 94 Bulls,94 Knicks, and 94 Rockets aren't really very different teams at all when it comes down to it. They are hard nosed defensive teams who rely on a super star on the offensive end and team play and than most importantly, that tenacious defense they could play. It's why there were so many 7 game series.

Now let's add who was the best player in the league into the equation on the Bulls...yeah, the Bulls are going to win it all.

[rodman91]

If Jordan didn't retire Bulls would win in 94. Bulls gone head to head with Knicks even without Jordan.And Knicks gone head to head with Rockets even Ewing was outplayed by Hakeem.

95 would be more questionable.Bulls lost Grant, Rockets added Drexler.

[Burgz]

Rockets would have beaten the Bulls with Jordan in 94.

you turned a harmless Olajuwon appreciation thread into a comparison thread

great job, way to stay on topic:rolleyes:

as for the video, :hammertime: he be dancin

[rodman91]

He was the best one in golden years for centers.

He was facing with Robinson,Shaq,Ewing,Mourning,Mutombo.Except Howard,there aren't many good centers around.

Rik Smits would destroy todays centers..No need Hakeem.

[jlauber]

He was the best one in golden years for centers.

He was facing with Robinson,Shaq,Ewing,Mourning,Mutombo.Except Howard,there aren't many good centers around.

Rik Smits would destroy todays centers..No need Hakeem.

He was not better than a PRIME Shaq.

[rodman91]

He was not better than a PRIME Shaq.

That's questionable.We haven't seen prime Hakeem vs prime Shaq.

[jlauber]

That's questionable.We haven't seen prime Hakeem vs prime Shaq.

We saw a PRIME Hakeem vs. a very young Shaq in the '95 Finals. Hakeem outscored Shaq, per game, 32 ppg to 28 ppg, but that was only because he was shot-jacking (30 FGAs per game.) Shaq outrebounded Hakeem, outassisted Hakeem, outblocked Hakeem, made more FTs, and outshot Hakeem, by get this... a .595 to .483 margin.

[millwad]

We saw a PRIME Hakeem vs. a very young Shaq in the '95 Finals. Hakeem outscored Shaq, per game, 32 ppg to 28 ppg, but that was only because he was shot-jacking (30 FGAs per game.) Shaq outrebounded Hakeem, outassisted Hakeem, outblocked Hakeem, made more FTs, and outshot Hakeem, by get this... a .595 to .483 margin.

And you mean that he outplayed Hakeem while no one but you claim something like that?

In fact, you can't admit that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the '95 finals when even Shaq himself and true Shaqfans like ShaqAttack on ISH say so.

But still, you are the first one to tell us about how Kareem got "CRUSHED" and "SCHOOLED" by Kareem in '72. The same season where Kareem averaged 40 points per game in regular season vs prime defensive WILT and then in the playoffs just abused him, averaging 23 more points PER GAME on BETTER FG% while also outassisting Wilt and shooting FT's twice as good in the series.

Jlauber, go and kill yourself..

[jlauber]

And you mean that he outplayed Hakeem while no one but you claim something like that?

In fact, you can't admit that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the '95 finals when even Shaq himself and true Shaqfans like ShaqAttack on ISH say so.

But still, you are the first one to tell us about how Kareem got "CRUSHED" and "SCHOOLED" by Kareem in '72. The same season where Kareem averaged 40 points per game in regular season vs prime defensive WILT and then in the playoffs just abused him, averaging 23 more points PER GAME on BETTER FG% while also outassisting Wilt and shooting FT's twice as good in the series.

Jlauber, go and kill yourself..

An OLD Wilt held a PRIME Kareem to .464 shooting over the course of 28 H2H games (and in the playoffs Kareem could only shoot .481 and .457 against Wilt.) Hell, in Wilt's LAST season, a 36 year old Wilt, in six regular season H2H's with a 26 year old Kareem, outshot Kareem by an astonishing .737 to .450 margin...including outscoring him in one game 24-21, while ousthooting Kareem, 10-14 to 10-27. Of course, a more prime Wilt ABUSED Kareem in their one H2H in the '69-70 season, outscoring him, 25-23, outrebounding him, 25-20, and outshooting him, 9-14 to 9-21.

Meanwhile, we had a 38 year old Kareem, (yes a 38 year old Kareem), who could barely get off the ground to get 6 rpg...pour in THREE 40+ games against Hakeem, including one game in which he outscored Hakeem 46-18, and on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.. Not only that, but in five H2H games in the '86 regular season, that 38 year old Kareem averaged 33 ppg on a staggering .634 FG% against Hakeem. Even in the playoffs, Hakeem could only outscore the 38 year old Kareem, 31-27 in a five game series.

BTW, in their 22 H2H battles from '86 thru '89, Kareem, from ages 38 thru 41, outshot a 23-26 year old Hakeem, by an eye-popping .599 to .495 margin.

That speaks volumes about who the REAL better defender was. Wilt was LIGHT YEARS ahead of Hakeem. And that wasn't even a PRIME Chamberlain, either.

[millwad]

An OLD Wilt held a PRIME Kareem to .464 shooting over the course of 28 H2H games (and in the playoffs Kareem could only shoot .481 and .457 against Wilt.) Meanwhile, we had a 38 year old Kareem, (yes a 38 year old Kareem), who could barely get off the ground to get 6 rpg...pour in THREE 40+ games against Hakeem, including one game in which he outscored Hakeem 46-18, and on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.. Not only that, but in five H2H games in the '86 regular season, that 38 year old Kareem averaged 33 ppg on a staggering .634 FG% against Hakeem. Even in the playoffs, Hakeem could only outscore the 38 year old Kareem, 31-27 in a five game series.

Still comparing prime defensive Wilt with rookie and 2nd year pro Akeem, what a troll..:facepalm

And poor little Jlauber also forgets how the 2nd year pro Akeem Olajuwon absolutely abused Kareem and the Lakers in the '86 playoffs, go and watch the tapes, cutie. Akeem abused them badly. I know you always forget the playoffs because it's when Wilt choked..:roll:

And prime defensive Wilt got abused by Kareem

Poor little Wilt got manhandled, crushed, abused, belittled by Kareem. Poor little Wilt never even lead a team in scoring and got a ring on the way out while not even being the best center in the league.

[millwad]

That speaks volumes about who the REAL better defender was. Wilt was LIGHT YEARS ahead of Hakeem. And that wasn't even a PRIME Chamberlain, either.


Prime defensive Wilt was Kareem's little toy.. Averaging 40 points per game on 50% shooting on prime defensive Wilt in the regular season of '72. The same season Wilt got his 2nd ring as a pathetic 4th option on offense, haha.. While Kareem outshot him in the playoffs while averaging 23 points more... PER GAME.. YOU TROLL.

Wilt in his stat prime was a choker and couldn't do crap, poor little Wilt got toy'd by the Celtics time after time and fact still remains that Wilt was the greatest FT-choker in league history and he couldn't win crap before others took over the scoring.

NAW....

[jlauber]

Still comparing prime defensive Wilt with rookie and 2nd year pro Akeem, what a troll..:facepalm

And poor little Jlauber also forgets how the 2nd year pro Akeem Olajuwon absolutely abused Kareem and the Lakers in the '86 playoffs, go and watch the tapes, cutie. Akeem abused them badly. I know you always forget the playoffs because it's when Wilt choked..:roll:

And prime defensive Wilt got abused by Kareem

Poor little Wilt got manhandled, crushed, abused, belittled by Kareem. Poor little Wilt never even lead a team in scoring and got a ring on the way out while not even being the best center in the league.

Wilt was NOT in his defensive PRIME in '72, although he was the best defensive player in the league (which had the likes of Thurmond, Lanier, Cowens, and Kareem.)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

As you can plainly see, Wilt was in his defensive PRIME in the mid-60's, when he was DESTROYING the SAME centers WAY beyond what a PRIME Kareem could. Scoring 40-50-60-and 70 point games against the likes of Bellamy, Reed, and Thurmond...as well as hanging 24 40+ point games on Russell, with FIVE of over 50, and even one of 62!

A PRIME Wilt would have just CRUSHED a PRIME Hakeem, who couldn't even guard a 38 year old Kareem, and was dominated by Shaq in BOTH '95 and '99 in the playoffs...and in fact, over the course of their ENTIRE H2H's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

[millwad]

Wilt was NOT in his defensive PRIME in '72, although he was the best defensive player in the league (which had the likes of Thurmond, Lanier, Cowens, and Kareem.)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

Defensive win shares is garbage, Mikan over Howard...:facepalm
A great majority claims that Wilt was in his defensive prime in '72 and still Kareem just abused him..



As you can plainly see, Wilt was in his defensive PRIME in the mid-60's, when he was DESTROYING the SAME centers WAY beyond what a PRIME Kareem could. Scoring 40-50-60-and 70 point games against the likes of Bellamy, Reed, and Thurmond...as well as hanging 24 40+ point games on Russell, with FIVE of over 50, and even one of 62!

OH GOD, did you get hard now?
Thurmond, Reed and Bellamy were not top 10 centers.




A PRIME Wilt would have just CRUSHED a PRIME Hakeem, who couldn't even guard a 38 year old Kareem, and was dominated by Shaq in BOTH '95 and '99 in the playoffs...and in fact, over the course of their ENTIRE H2H's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

Prime Wilt couldn't do shit without HOF:ers and all-stars, poor guy choked in the playoffs. The great scorer Wilt's career average is lower than Hakeem career average in scoring and also on lower FG%, you're a dick. And sure, talk about "Prime Wilt" now who couldn't win shit now..

And yeah, that you claim that Shaq dominated Hakeem in '95 says alot about you. I feel sorry for you, you know that? We all know that you are a lonely person and you have no job or family, we've confirmed that but trolling on the internet ain't gonna make you any happier, no one even likes you, you know that?

And it's funny, the dick Jlauber claims that Wilt "CRUSHED" and "ABUSED" Kareem in the playoffs of '72 while getting outscored with 23 points per game on better FG% but at the same time the poor lonely old fart can't even admit that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in '95..:facepalm

And you dick, you cry like a baby when people mention '72 Wilt getting crushed by Kareem because of his age, but then you bring up 36 year old Hakeem in to the discussion...:facepalm

[Tha Catalyst]

Wilt was NOT in his defensive PRIME in '72, although he was the best defensive player in the league (which had the likes of Thurmond, Lanier, Cowens, and Kareem.)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

As you can plainly see, Wilt was in his defensive PRIME in the mid-60's, when he was DESTROYING the SAME centers WAY beyond what a PRIME Kareem could. Scoring 40-50-60-and 70 point games against the likes of Bellamy, Reed, and Thurmond...as well as hanging 24 40+ point games on Russell, with FIVE of over 50, and even one of 62!

A PRIME Wilt would have just CRUSHED a PRIME Hakeem, who couldn't even guard a 38 year old Kareem, and was dominated by Shaq in BOTH '95 and '99 in the playoffs...and in fact, over the course of their ENTIRE H2H's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01
You obviously know lots about basketball history but Shaq didn't dominate Hakeem in 95 playoffs. Don't talk dribble. Your displaying trolling and just posting pure BS. He got outplayed, how in the world is that 'dominant' by Shaq. Revisionist history doesn't work when many people distinctly remember the series, actually watching the series. Rather than showing stats for comparison of level of play. Shaq did ok and held his own, but Hakeem was boss and even the less than modest Shaq recognizes that to this day.

[rodman91]

Difference between young Shaq & prime Shaq wasn't like day and night.Prime Shaq had better moves on post, better at passing out of double teaming.Young Shaq was more athletic, more hustler. He was dominant player since rookie year.

He was almost at his prime since rookie year.00's competition & Jackson's plays made real difference.

I think they would go toe to toe.

[Yung D-Will]

Difference between young Shaq & prime Shaq wasn't like day and night.Prime Shaq had better moves on post, better at passing out of double teaming.Young Shaq was more athletic, more hustler. He was dominant player since rookie year.

He was almost at his prime since rookie year.00's competition & Jackson's plays made real difference.

I think they would go toe to toe.
The biggest differnce is he became a much better passer and put on a lot of muscle

[32Dayz]

3rd Year Shaq arguably outplayed Hakeem in the Finals.
+ from 93-95 Shaq won around 70% of the times the two matched up with Shaq outplaying Hakeem.
I dont get people who actually think Hakeem was better then Shaq by 95 at best they were equal.

I might give Hakeem a slight edge in the 95 series because he stepped up in key moments but honestly that series was a complete wash between the two.

Prime Shaq >>> Any Version of Hakeem.

[jlauber]

Difference between young Shaq & prime Shaq wasn't like day and night.Prime Shaq had better moves on post, better at passing out of double teaming.Young Shaq was more athletic, more hustler. He was dominant player since rookie year.

He was almost at his prime since rookie year.00's competition & Jackson's plays made real difference.

I think they would go toe to toe.

Good points, but the 00's Shaq was about 50 lbs heavier and considerably stronger. The younger Shaq was more athletic, and was probably already the best center in the game, but by the 00's he was WAY better than any other center in the league.

[jlauber]

3rd Year Shaq arguably outplayed Hakeem in the Finals.
+ from 93-95 Shaq won around 70% of the times the two matched up with Shaq outplaying Hakeem.
I dont get people who actually think Hakeem was better then Shaq by 95 at best they were equal.

I might give Hakeem a slight edge in the 95 series because he stepped up in key moments but honestly that series was a complete wash between the two.

Prime Shaq >>> Any Version of Hakeem.

This.

:cheers:

[rodman91]

All these goat rankings and rings making look some players to much more superior to others.

Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq,Ewing were close back then.Today everybody is like Shaq or Hakeem were much more superior than Robinson,Ewing. Anybody who watched 90's unbias knows it is not true.

Similar to today people saying, Kobe is much more superior than prime Iverson,T-mac.Anybody watched 00's knows it is not true as well.

[jlauber]

All these goat rankings and rings making look some players to much more superior to others.

Hakeem,Robinson,Shaq,Ewing were close back then.Today everybody is like Shaq or Hakeem were much more superior than Robinson,Ewing. Anybody who watched 90's unbias knows it is not true.

Similar to today people saying, Kobe is much more superior than prime Iverson,T-mac.Anybody watched 00's knows it is not true as well.

Shaq was the most dominant big man of his era, and by a considerable margin. Hakeem was nowhere near as dominant, and was marginally better than Robinson and Ewing.

[rodman91]

Jordan described Hakeem as "taller version of me."

It says a lot.

[jlauber]

You obviously know lots about basketball history but Shaq didn't dominate Hakeem in 95 playoffs. Don't talk dribble. Your displaying trolling and just posting pure BS. He got outplayed, how in the world is that 'dominant' by Shaq. Revisionist history doesn't work when many people distinctly remember the series, actually watching the series. Rather than showing stats for comparison of level of play. Shaq did ok and held his own, but Hakeem was boss and even the less than modest Shaq recognizes that to this day.

Revisionist history is how highly ranked Hakeem is by some of those on this forum. Hakeem was never considered the best player in the league (and the one year he won an MVP, the REAL best player took the year off.) In fact, in the MAJORITY of his career, he barely ranked in the top-TEN in his OWN era. How in the hell do some of these "revisionists" rank Hakeem in their Top-5's, when he was only a top-FOUR player in his OWN era, in FOUR seasons (and two of those were exactly Top-4's)?

He was part of EIGHT first-round exits. How can any "great" have so little impact? He never played on a 60+ win team, and in fact, only played on a few that even won 50+. And, in the last half of his career, he played in the watered-down 90's, in which only Chicago had stacked teams (and he never faced the Bulls in the post-season.) He never led the league in scoring or FG%, and barely won two rebounding titles. In fact, when he was paired with Barkley, and both were the same age, Barkley outrebounded him by FOUR per game. Those that claim he was a great shot-blocker are over-exaggerating him. He wasn't even the best shot-blocker of his own era (Eaton and by a sizeable margin.) He averaged 2.5 apg, so those that claim he was even a decent passer are deluding themselves. Even his supposed great defense has proven to have holes in it. A 38 year old Kareem scored and shot at will against him. 33 ppg on .634 shooting is just astonishing, especially for a 38 year old. In fact, even a 41 year old Kareem shot over 50% against him in their H2H's, and from age 38 thru 41, Kareem shot .599 against Hakeem-led teams. Then there was a young Shaq pounding him with a 28 ppg .595 series.

He won two rings, but the reality was, had MJ played that season, it just an impossibility to believe that Hakeem would have won a ring that season. He did manage to outplay Ewing, who had inferior teammates, in a seven game series (although Ewing did a very good defensively on him.) And in his '95 run, he had HOFer Drexler, which gave him more HOFers than the teams he faced.

His entire career was basically built on outplaying Ewing in that seven game Finals in '94, and crushing Robinson in four of six games in the '95 playoffs. That was it. Shaq scored 28 ppg to Hakeem's 32 ppg in the '95 Finals, BUT, Hakeem took 42 more shots to do so (116 to 74.) Once again, Shaq outshot Hakeem by a HUGE margin in that series (.595 to .483), while outrebounding him, outassisting him, making more FTs, and blocking more shots.

And those that constantly boast about Hakeem's post-season play overlook the fact that he was routinely getting bounced in the FIRST ROUND. To no one's surprise, his best scoring, FG%, and rebounding post-season series, came in only four games, in a FIRST ROUND loss. He had a few POOR post-seasons, as well, including a horrible one, at the prime age of 27, in the '90 playoffs against LA, when he scored 18.5 ppg on .443 shooting. And his 95-96 playoff run, with Barkley, was basically a flop, and while he played decent, he was hardly dominant (22.4 ppg, .510 shooting, and 9.1 rpg.) In 97-98, he shot .394 in yet another first round exit. And the very next season, Shaq CRUSHED him, in yet, one more first round exit.

Hakeem was a very good player, and a borderline Top-10 player (at best.) His two rings are over-rated, since we know that a PRIME MJ did not play in one of those seasons. So, basically, Hakeem had one brilliant post-season run, which included a Finals in which, at BEST, he battled a young Shaq, to a draw (although Shaq's edge in nearly every facet was truly amazing.)

So, let's put an end to this nonsense that somehow Hakeem was among the immortals of the game...Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem...then Shaq and Duncan. He was a considerable notch below Shaq, and a solid notch below Duncan. In terms of overall careers, Bird and Kobe were arguably greater. And, if you really look at just how dominant Moses was for about 5-6 years, a case could be made that even Moses was, at his peak, a greater player, as well.

[millwad]

Revisionist history is how highly ranked Hakeem is by some of those on this forum. Hakeem was never considered the best player in the league (and the one year he won an MVP, the REAL best player took the year off.) In fact, in the MAJORITY of his career, he barely ranked in the top-TEN in his OWN era. How in the hell do some of these "revisionists" rank Hakeem in their Top-5's, when he was only a top-FOUR player in his OWN era, in FOUR seasons (and two of those were exactly Top-4's)?

Wilt wouldn't be considered the best player in the league if he played in Hakeem's era, you joke.



He was part of EIGHT first-round exits. How can any "great" have so little impact? He never played on a 60+ win team, and in fact, only played on a few that even won 50+. And, in the last half of his career, he played in the watered-down 90's, in which only Chicago had stacked teams (and he never faced the Bulls in the post-season.) He never led the league in scoring or FG%, and barely won two rebounding titles. In fact, when he was paired with Barkley, and both were the same age, Barkley outrebounded him by FOUR per game. Those that claim he was a great shot-blocker are over-exaggerating him. He wasn't even the best shot-blocker of his own era (Eaton and by a sizeable margin.) He averaged 2.5 apg, so those that claim he was even a decent passer are deluding themselves. Even his supposed great defense has proven to have holes in it. A 38 year old Kareem scored and shot at will against him. 33 ppg on .634 shooting is just astonishing, especially for a 38 year old. In fact, even a 41 year old Kareem shot over 50% against him in their H2H's, and from age 38 thru 41, Kareem shot .599 against Hakeem-led teams.


Ok, dude, you need to get a life.
He still won just as much as your loverboy, Wilt Chamberlain, and he did it while playing greater. Wilt was the 2nd tied option and 4th option on offense when he finally won after his stat-padding years which lead him no where at all.

And Kareem and the Lakers got schooled by Olajuwon in '86 playoffs, Olajuwon as a 2nd year pro crushed the Lakers so stop the constant trolling about irrelevant regular season games when he came on top the same freaking season.

Unlike Wilt, Hakeem showed up better than ever to the playoffs.

Hakeem's 8 first-round exits wasn't because of him, Hakeem raised his game in the playoffs, unlike the choker Wilt who had to have HOF:ers and all-star by his side who could carry the team on offense. And 90's is greater than 60's, you retard.

And Hakeem not leading the league in scoring is irrelevant and especially considering how Wilt scored way less than Hakeem when he finally won. Statpadding still doesn't mean crap.

And troll, it's funny, the 4 rebound per game higher average Barkley had was in the '00 season. It really takes a retard use that as a proof of Hakeem being a "bad" rebounder, he was 37 years old. Wilt at that age was retired.. Haha.



He won two rings, but the reality was, had MJ played that season, it just an impossibility to believe that Hakeem would have won a ring that season. He did manage to outplay Ewing, who had inferior teammates, in a seven game series (although Ewing did a very good defensively on him.) And in his '95 run, he had HOFer Drexler, which gave him more HOFers than the teams he faced.


How fun, no one, not even Jordan considers it to be an impossibilty that the Rockets would beat them in '94. And troll, Drexler wasn't even an all-star in '95 and was out of his prime.



And those that constantly boast about Hakeem's post-season play overlook the fact that he was routinely getting bounced in the FIRST ROUND. To no one's surprise, his best scoring, FG%, and rebounding post-season series, came in only four games, in a FIRST ROUND loss. He had a few POOR post-seasons, as well, including a horrible one, at the prime age of 27, in the '90 playoffs against LA, when he scored 18.5 ppg on .443 shooting. And his 95-96 playoff run, with Barkley, was basically a flop, and while he played decent, he was hardly dominant (22.4 ppg, .510 shooting, and 9.1 rpg.) In 97-98, he shot .394 in yet another first round exit. And the very next season, Shaq CRUSHED him, in yet, one more first round exit.


Which only proves that Hakeem did his job in those series they lost in the first round but obviously his teammates were garbage. And you always spam about this, but now tell us, what years should Hakeem have made it that much further then what he did with those teammates?



Hakeem was a very good player, and a borderline Top-10 player (at best.) His two rings are over-rated, since we know that a PRIME MJ did not play in one of those seasons. So, basically, Hakeem had one brilliant post-season run, which included a Finals in which, at BEST, he battled a young Shaq, to a draw (although Shaq's edge in nearly every facet was truly amazing.)

Wilt's 2 rings are ranked lower than Hakeem's. They came when Wilt even couldn't lead his teams in scoring. He was tied at 2nd in '67 when it came to scoring and in '72 the sucker averaged 14 points per game while being the 4th option on offense, troll. And his '72 season was garbage compared to Hakeem's title years.


Wilt got crushed by Kareem. Kareem averaged 40 points per game on 50% shooting against Wilt in the regular season of '72 and that was prime defensive Wilt, haha.. And later he got outscored with 23 points per game on better FG% while also getting outassisted by Kareem in the playoffs, haha..:facepalm

[jlauber]

And troll, it's funny, the 4 rebound per game higher average Barkley had was in the '00 season. It really takes a retard use that as a proof of Hakeem being a "bad" rebounder, he was 37 years old. Wilt at that age was retired.. Haha.



Once again, nothing but lies. Barkley averaged 13.5 rpg to Hakeem's pathetic 9.2 rpg in the 96-97 season, and when Hakeem was 34 and Barkley was 33. Even in the playoffs that season, it was BARKLEY who led the Rockets in rebounding. Just another example of Hakeem's REAL rebounding strength. He wasn't even the best rebounder on his own team.

Then the next season, and once again in a first round exit, Hakeem averaged 10.8 rpg in 38 mpg, while teammate Kevin Willis, also 35 year old, averaged 10.6 rpg in 33 mpg. BTW, Wilt, at age 35, was leading the NBA in rebounding, and carrying his team to a 69-13 record, and a Finals MVP.

In 98-99, it was once again Barkley outrebounding Hakeem by THREE rpg, and again, at nearly the same age. And in yet ANOTHER first round exit, and when he was POUNDED by Shaq, Hakeem was THIRD best rebounder behind Barkley AND Pippen. (BTW, how the hell does a team with those three players get routed in the first round?) Oh, and Hakeem was 36 years old that season...the SAME age that Wilt LED the NBA in rebounding and carried his team to a 60-22 record and a trip to the Finals.

Hakeem was NEVER a great rebounder. He was simply very good.

BTW, at age 34, and a year removed from major knee surgery, Wilt was, as ALWAYS, leading the league in rebounding. Of course, as he got healthier, he would run away with the rebounding title at ages 35 and 36. In fact, in his LAST post-season, he averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 post-season games (and playing 47.1 mpg in the process), which was the LAST time anyone ever averaged 20 rpg in a post-season. The next best mark? Kareem's 17.7 rpg in the 76-77 playoffs. Of course, Wilt always outrebounded Kareem, as well as players like Cowens, Hayes, and Unseld, who were the leading rebounders throughout the 70's.

[jlauber]

Hakeem was NEVER a great scorer. True, he could score 32 ppg in a Finals, but on 30 FGAs per game, and on .483 shooting. He was never even remotely close to leading the NBA in scoring in 18 years.

His FG% efficiency was usually only marginally above the league average, too. In his best season, he shot .534 in a league that shot .492 (here again, in the NBA's greatest FG% season...in fact, the Lakers TEAM shot .548 that season, and even the Kings, a 30-52 team, shot .504.) He never came close to even challenging for a FG% title...in EIGHTEEN seasons. His career FG% was .512, in leagues that usually shot around .470 on average.

As I illustrated above, he was NOT a GREAT rebounder. He was merely a very good rebounder. He was a FAR inferior rebounder to a 6-5 Charles Barkley for cryingoutloud. He was outrebounded by Shaq, who was never considered a GREAT rebounder (he never won a rebounding title) in two post-seasons, and then there were several post-seasons in which Hakeem wasn't even the best rebounder on his own team (and he even came in THIRD, on his OWN team, in one of them.)

Passing? Truly laughable. The man averaged 2.5 apg in his CAREER. You would be hard-pressed to find another "great" who was so low. Only Moses, who was a better scorer and rebounder, was as bad.

Defense? How does a GREAT defender allow a 37-38 year old Kareem to post THREE 40+ games over the course of 10 H2H games...and have an entire season of .634 shooting? How does a GREAT defender allow a young Shaq to nt only score 28 ppg, but on .595 shooting.

Hell, in their 42 regular season H2H's, Robinson outshot Hakeem by an average of .488 to .441.

Shot-blocking? "Cement shoes" Eaton was CLEARLY a better shot-blocker. Hakeem averaged 3.1 bpg in his career. Good, but hardly great. Guys like Russell and Wilt were routinely putting up QUARTERS with those numbers. My god, Wilt, at age 35-36, was routinely knocking Kareem's "unblockable" sky-hook all over the gym. One can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain would have swatted against Kareem. And yet Hakeem couldn't even guard a 38 year old Kareem, and had to be pulled from him in the WCF's.

Scoring, efficiency, rebounding, passing, defense, and shot-blocking...Hakeem was good, but not great, at ANY.

[millwad]

Hakeem was NEVER a great scorer. True, he could score 32 ppg in a Finals, but on 30 FGAs per game, and on .483 shooting. He was never even remotely close to leading the NBA in scoring in 18 years.

His FG% efficiency was usually only marginally above the league average, too. In his best season, he shot .534 in a league that shot .492 (here again, in the NBA's greatest FG% season...in fact, the Lakers TEAM shot .548 that season, and even the Kings, a 30-52 team, shot .504.) He never came close to even challenging for a FG% title...in EIGHTEEN seasons. His career FG% was .512, in leagues that usually shot around .470 on average.



The never "great scorer" had a higher point per game average in the playoffs than Wilt Chamberlain and not only that, Hakeem shot with a higher FG% than Wilt Chamberlain in the playoffs as well.

Poor little Wilt could only score like crazy in the regular season, the dude dropped with 8 points in the playoffs while shooting on worse FG%.

HAKEEM OLAJUWON HAD A HIGHER SCORING AVERAGE IN THE PLAYOFFS THAN WILT CHAMBERLAIN ON BETTER FG%!

Hakeem Olajuwon actually got the highest scoring average for a center in league history in the playoffs..

[Yung D-Will]

Honestly the more I watch Hakeem the more I flip/flop between him and Shaq at the 7/8 Spot.

To me it's goes like this

Kareem/Wilt/Russell-1 tier

Shaq/Hakeem- 2nd tier

[millwad]

Passing? Truly laughable. The man averaged 2.5 apg in his CAREER. You would be hard-pressed to find another "great" who was so low. Only Moses, who was a better scorer and rebounder, was as bad.

Moses a better scorer? That's just proves your stupidity. And Shaq got the same career average when it comes to passing, he must have sucked just as much as a passer.




Defense? How does a GREAT defender allow a 37-38 year old Kareem to post THREE 40+ games over the course of 10 H2H games...and have an entire season of .634 shooting? How does a GREAT defender allow a young Shaq to nt only score 28 ppg, but on .595 shooting.

Again, this proves your stupidity even more. Since when does anyone judge players based on their rookie and 2nd years as pro's? And we still know that Hakeem abused Kareem and the Lakers in the payoffs of '86 as a 2nd year pro.

And Shaq in '95 wasn't guarded all the time by Hakeem and Shaq got outplayed.




Shot-blocking? "Cement shoes" Eaton was CLEARLY a better shot-blocker. Hakeem averaged 3.1 bpg in his career. Good, but hardly great. Guys like Russell and Wilt were routinely putting up QUARTERS with those numbers. My god, Wilt, at age 35-36, was routinely knocking Kareem's "unblockable" sky-hook all over the gym. One can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain would have swatted against Kareem. And yet Hakeem couldn't even guard a 38 year old Kareem, and had to be pulled from him in the WCF's.


Eaton is one of the greatest shotblockers of all-time, and we've seen the guys Wilt and Russell blocked. And Wilt at age 35-36 got his ass kicked by Kareem. Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting on the 35 year old Wilt. The same 35 year old Wilt was in his defensive prime.




Scoring, efficiency, rebounding, passing, defense, and shot-blocking...Hakeem was good, but not great, at ANY.

:facepalm

[jlauber]

The never "great scorer" had a higher point per game average in the playoffs than Wilt Chamberlain and not only that, Hakeem shot with a higher FG% than Wilt Chamberlain in the playoffs as well.

Poor little Wilt could only score like crazy in the regular season, the dude dropped with 8 points in the playoffs while shooting on worse FG%.

HAKEEM OLAJUWON HAD A HIGHER SCORING AVERAGE IN THE PLAYOFFS THAN WILT CHAMBERLAIN ON BETTER FG%!

Hakeem Olajuwon actually got the highest scoring average for a center in league history in the playoffs..

Hakeem never approached the post-season scoring of a PRIME "scoring" Wilt. A PRIME Chamberlain averaged 32.8 ppg in his first seven seasons, and his always bad rosters were so bad in '63 that they didn't make the playoffs, in a year in which Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg on a league-leading .528 FG%. Furthermore, in those "scoring" seasons, Chamberlain faced Russell in 30 of those 52 games.

Of course, Wilt had FOUR entire post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He also had playoff series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, and 38.6 ppg. He had FOUR post-seasons, just against Russell, alone, of 30+, including a 30-31 seven game series. Chamberlain also had FOUR 50+ point games in the playoffs, including one against Russell. How many did Hakeem have?

BTW, Wilt "the choker" faced Russell and his HOF-laden teammates EIGHT times in the post-season. He BEAT him (and badly) in '67, which ended Boston's EIGHT straight titles. He also narrowly lost FOUR game seven's against the Celtic Dynasty, by a total of NINE points.

Which begs the question...how many times did Hakeem face Jordan's Bulls in the playoffs? Hell, Hakeem couldn't even get past the first round in EIGHT, of his 15 post-seasons. So, while you rip Wilt for "losing" in the post-season, at least Chamberlain was losing to superior teams. Hakeem was quietly going to slaughter in the first round of his, and against much weaker opponents.

Post-season efficiency? Hakeem shot .528 iin his post-season career to Wilt's .522. However, Chamberlain was OUTSHOOTING the LEAGUE AVERAGE by FAR greater margins. And, once again, Wilt faced a HOF center in 99 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11...while Hakeem faced a HOF center in only 34 of his 145 playoff games.

And how about their FG%'s in their Finals. Hakeem shot .488 over the course of his 17 Finals games, with a HIGH series of .500 against Ewing. Chamberlain shot .560 over the course of his 35 Finals games, with a one series at .625, another at .600, and even a .560 Finals against Thurmond (who held Kareem to .486, .428, and .405 shooting in their three H2H playoff series.) Wilt's LOW Finals FG% was a .517 against Russell in the '64 Finals (in a league that shot .426), and along with 29 ppg and 27 rpg.

Rebounding? Wilt was NEVER outrebounded in his 29 post-season series. In fact, he CRUSHED most of those opposing centers.

Passing? Wilt had post-seasons of 6.5 apg, and a staggering 9.2 apg (which included TWO series of 10 apg and 11 apg...and a 19 assist game.)

Defense? Wilt ROUTINELY held his opposing centers WAY below their normal FG%'s. Hell, he not only held Kareem to .481 and .457 shooting in their two post-season H2H's, he was knocking the sky-hook back into Kareem's forehead.

So, NO, Hakeem was NOT the scorer, NOR as efficient, NOR the passer,. NOR the defender, NOR the rebounder, that Wilt was in the post-season.

[millwad]

,
So, NO, Hakeem was NOT the scorer, NOR as efficient, NOR the passer,. NOR the defender, NOR the rebounder, that Wilt was in the post-season.

AGAIN...

The never "great scorer" had a higher point per game average in the playoffs than Wilt Chamberlain and not only that, Hakeem shot with a higher FG% than Wilt Chamberlain in the playoffs as well.

Poor little Wilt could only score like crazy in the regular season, the dude dropped with 8 points in the playoffs while shooting on worse FG%.

HAKEEM OLAJUWON HAD A HIGHER SCORING AVERAGE IN THE PLAYOFFS THAN WILT CHAMBERLAIN ON BETTER FG%!

Hakeem Olajuwon actually got the highest scoring average for a center in league history in the playoffs..

[jlauber]

AGAIN...

The never "great scorer" had a higher point per game average in the playoffs than Wilt Chamberlain and not only that, Hakeem shot with a higher FG% than Wilt Chamberlain in the playoffs as well.

Poor little Wilt could only score like crazy in the regular season, the dude dropped with 8 points in the playoffs while shooting on worse FG%.

HAKEEM OLAJUWON HAD A HIGHER SCORING AVERAGE IN THE PLAYOFFS THAN WILT CHAMBERLAIN ON BETTER FG%!

Hakeem Olajuwon actually got the highest scoring average for a center in league history in the playoffs..

Again...

Hakeem never approached the post-season scoring of a PRIME "scoring" Wilt. A PRIME Chamberlain averaged 32.8 ppg in his first seven seasons, and his always bad rosters were so bad in '63 that they didn't make the playoffs, in a year in which Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg on a league-leading .528 FG%. Furthermore, in those "scoring" seasons, Chamberlain faced Russell in 30 of those 52 games.

Of course, Wilt had FOUR entire post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He also had playoff series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, and 38.6 ppg. He had FOUR post-seasons, just against Russell, alone, of 30+, including a 30-31 seven game series. Chamberlain also had FOUR 50+ point games in the playoffs, including one against Russell. How many did Hakeem have?

BTW, Wilt "the choker" faced Russell and his HOF-laden teammates EIGHT times in the post-season. He BEAT him (and badly) in '67, which ended Boston's EIGHT straight titles. He also narrowly lost FOUR game seven's against the Celtic Dynasty, by a total of NINE points.

Which begs the question...how many times did Hakeem face Jordan's Bulls in the playoffs? Hell, Hakeem couldn't even get past the first round in EIGHT, of his 15 post-seasons. So, while you rip Wilt for "losing" in the post-season, at least Chamberlain was losing to superior teams. Hakeem was quietly going to slaughter in the first round of his, and against much weaker opponents.

Post-season efficiency? Hakeem shot .528 iin his post-season career to Wilt's .522. However, Chamberlain was OUTSHOOTING the LEAGUE AVERAGE by FAR greater margins. And, once again, Wilt faced a HOF center in 99 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11...while Hakeem faced a HOF center in only 34 of his 145 playoff games.

And how about their FG%'s in their Finals. Hakeem shot .488 over the course of his 17 Finals games, with a HIGH series of .500 against Ewing. Chamberlain shot .560 over the course of his 35 Finals games, with a one series at .625, another at .600, and even a .560 Finals against Thurmond (who held Kareem to .486, .428, and .405 shooting in their three H2H playoff series.) Wilt's LOW Finals FG% was a .517 against Russell in the '64 Finals (in a league that shot .426), and along with 29 ppg and 27 rpg.

Rebounding? Wilt was NEVER outrebounded in his 29 post-season series. In fact, he CRUSHED most of those opposing centers.

Passing? Wilt had post-seasons of 6.5 apg, and a staggering 9.2 apg (which included TWO series of 10 apg and 11 apg...and a 19 assist game.)

Defense? Wilt ROUTINELY held his opposing centers WAY below their normal FG%'s. Hell, he not only held Kareem to .481 and .457 shooting in their two post-season H2H's, he was knocking the sky-hook back into Kareem's forehead.

So, NO, Hakeem was NOT the scorer, NOR as efficient, NOR the passer,. NOR the defender, NOR the rebounder, that Wilt was in the post-season.

[millwad]

Again...

Hakeem never approached the post-season scoring of a PRIME "scoring" Wilt. A PRIME Chamberlain averaged 32.8 ppg in his first seven seasons, and his always bad rosters were so bad in '63 that they didn't make the playoffs, in a year in which Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg on a league-leading .528 FG%. Furthermore, in those "scoring" seasons, Chamberlain faced Russell in 30 of those 52 games.

Of course, Wilt had FOUR entire post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He also had playoff series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, and 38.6 ppg. He had FOUR post-seasons, just against Russell, alone, of 30+, including a 30-31 seven game series. Chamberlain also had FOUR 50+ point games in the playoffs, including one against Russell. How many did Hakeem have?

BTW, Wilt "the choker" faced Russell and his HOF-laden teammates EIGHT times in the post-season. He BEAT him (and badly) in '67, which ended Boston's EIGHT straight titles. He also narrowly lost FOUR game seven's against the Celtic Dynasty, by a total of NINE points.

Which begs the question...how many times did Hakeem face Jordan's Bulls in the playoffs? Hell, Hakeem couldn't even get past the first round in EIGHT, of his 15 post-seasons. So, while you rip Wilt for "losing" in the post-season, at least Chamberlain was losing to superior teams. Hakeem was quietly going to slaughter in the first round of his, and against much weaker opponents.

Post-season efficiency? Hakeem shot .528 iin his post-season career to Wilt's .522. However, Chamberlain was OUTSHOOTING the LEAGUE AVERAGE by FAR greater margins. And, once again, Wilt faced a HOF center in 99 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11...while Hakeem faced a HOF center in only 34 of his 145 playoff games.

And how about their FG%'s in their Finals. Hakeem shot .488 over the course of his 17 Finals games, with a HIGH series of .500 against Ewing. Chamberlain shot .560 over the course of his 35 Finals games, with a one series at .625, another at .600, and even a .560 Finals against Thurmond (who held Kareem to .486, .428, and .405 shooting in their three H2H playoff series.) Wilt's LOW Finals FG% was a .517 against Russell in the '64 Finals (in a league that shot .426), and along with 29 ppg and 27 rpg.

Rebounding? Wilt was NEVER outrebounded in his 29 post-season series. In fact, he CRUSHED most of those opposing centers.

Passing? Wilt had post-seasons of 6.5 apg, and a staggering 9.2 apg (which included TWO series of 10 apg and 11 apg...and a 19 assist game.)

Defense? Wilt ROUTINELY held his opposing centers WAY below their normal FG%'s. Hell, he not only held Kareem to .481 and .457 shooting in their two post-season H2H's, he was knocking the sky-hook back into Kareem's forehead.

So, NO, Hakeem was NOT the scorer, NOR as efficient, NOR the passer,. NOR the defender, NOR the rebounder, that Wilt was in the post-season.

AND AGAIN...

The never "great scorer" had a higher point per game average in the playoffs than Wilt Chamberlain and not only that, Hakeem shot with a higher FG% than Wilt Chamberlain in the playoffs as well.

Poor little Wilt could only score like crazy in the regular season, the dude dropped with 8 points in the playoffs while shooting on worse FG%.

HAKEEM OLAJUWON HAD A HIGHER SCORING AVERAGE IN THE PLAYOFFS THAN WILT CHAMBERLAIN ON BETTER FG%!

Hakeem Olajuwon actually got the highest scoring average for a center in league history in the playoffs..

[Yung D-Will]

Both Wilt and Hakeem are easily top 5 centers so I don't see what all the arguing is about.

Jlubar massively underrates Hakeem

Whiles Milwald massively underrates Wilt.

We've seen this enough nothing to really argue about anymore.

:cheers:

[jlauber]

Honestly the more I watch Hakeem the more I flip/flop between him and Shaq at the 7/8 Spot.

To me it's goes like this

Kareem/Wilt/Russell-1 tier

Shaq/Hakeem- 2nd tier

I have actually gone the other way.

Tier 1... Russell/Wilt
Tier 2... Kareem/Shaq
Tier 3...Duncan
Tier 4...Hakeem/Moses

A PRIME Moses was averaging 31.1 ppg, grabbing 17.6 rpg (running away with the rebounding title by a HUGE margin), and winning THREE MVPs. Included in those PRIME years, were two in which he outplayed Kareem H2H in the post-season.

[Odinn]

Hakeem's playoffs ppg until his 35 - 136 games; 27.0 (on 53.0%)
Kareem's playoffs ppg until his 38 - 180 games; 27.3 (on 54.1%)
Shaq's playoffs ppg until his 34 - 198 games; 25.5 (on 56.6%)

[Yung D-Will]

I have actually gone the other way.

Tier 1... Russell/Wilt
Tier 2... Kareem/Shaq
Tier 3...Duncan
Tier 4...Hakeem/Moses

A PRIME Moses was averaging 31.1 ppg, grabbing 17.6 rpg (running away with the rebounding title by a HUGE margin), and winning THREE MVPs. Included in those PRIME years, were two in which he outplayed Kareem H2H in the post-season.

Can't do that, You can watch all the Duncan games I've uploaded to my channel but none of the games I've watch implied to me that Duncan was as good as Hakeem at all.

The only thing I'd take Moses over Hakeem for is rebounding, From what I've seen he wasn't a better scorer, defender or passer. In fact he seemed really reluncted to pass the ball when he'd be double teamed or in obvious passing situations.

If we're putting Duncan in this I guess it'd be

1. Wilt/Kareem/Russell- 1st tier
2. Shaq/Hakeem- 2nd tier
3. Moses/Duncan- 3rd tier

[millwad]

Hakeem's playoffs ppg until his 35 - 136 games; 27.0 (on 53.0%)
Kareem's playoffs ppg until his 38 - 180 games; 27.3 (on 54.1%)
Shaq's playoffs ppg until his 34 - 198 games; 25.5 (on 56.6%)

Kareem would had the highest PPG average in the playoffs in league history among centers if he'd retire earlier. Kareem's longevity was just crazy, no doubt in my mind that he's the greatest center of all-time.

[millwad]

Can't do that, You can watch all the Duncan games I've uploaded to my channel but none of the games I've watch implied to me that Duncan was as good as Hakeem at all.

The only thing I'd take Moses over Hakeem for is rebounding, From what I've seen he wasn't a better scorer, defender or passer. In fact he seemed really reluncted to pass the ball when he'd be double teamed or in obvious passing situations.

If we're putting Duncan in this I guess it'd be

1. Wilt/Kareem/Russell- 1st tier
2. Shaq/Hakeem- 2nd tier
3. Moses/Duncan- 3rd tier

According to him Hakeem got badly outplayed in the finals of '95 vs Shaq and Nate Thurmond was better than Hakeem without no doubt. Hakeem was also only good at scoring, rebounding, shotblocking etc, he wasn't great at anything..

Then Jlauber continues with that Wilt "crushed", "schooled" and "abused" Kareem in '72 when Kareem averaged 40 points per game on 50% shooting in the regular season on Wilt. And then outscoring Wilt with 23 points per game in the series on better FG% while also outassisting Wilt and shooting FT's twice as good as Wilt.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I have actually gone the other way.

I'm still waiting on you to show me someone getting 31 rebounds vs Shaq, like Nate Thurmond did vs Wilt in game 1 of the 1967 Nba finals. Hell, Russell grabbed 20 more rebounds in Gm 7 of the '69 Finals...on his LAST LEGS. The very final game Bill Russell played, he out-rebounded Wilt by 20+.

Are you gonna rave about how great of a "winner" Wilt was? If so, why did he lose 4-1 in the 1964 finals to Bill Russell with Nate Thurmond as his teammate? Wilt had J. West averaging 37.9 ppg in the 1969 Nba finals and STILL managed to lose against Russell. Please explain. Furthermore, when has a modern player averaged 48 mpg like Wilt did? Thats not a good thing...stayed in all game in a 51 pt loss to the Celtics that yr, lol. He sure wanted those stats. :oldlol:

[Odinn]

My goat centers list;
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
3. Wilt
5. Hakeem
6. Moses
7. DRob
8. Mikan
9. Ewing
10. Walton


Peak wise;
1. Kareem
2. Shaq
3. Wilt
4. Hakeem
5. DRob
6. Moses
7. Russell (due to his offensive numbers, goat winnner and goat defensive player)
8. Walton
9. Ewing
10. Mikan

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

According to him Hakeem got badly outplayed in the finals of '95 vs Shaq and Nate Thurmond was better than Hakeem without no doubt. Hakeem was also only good at scoring, rebounding, shotblocking etc, he wasn't great at anything..

Then Jlauber continues with that Wilt "crushed", "schooled" and "abused" Kareem in '72 when Kareem averaged 40 points per game on 50% shooting in the regular season on Wilt. And then outscoring Wilt with 23 points per game in the series on better FG% while also outassisting Wilt and shooting FT's twice as good as Wilt.

Here's some proof of Wilt getting "schooled"...

In your browser go to youtube and type in, "1964 nba finals G4 celtics@warriors 1/4"...pause at 3:15. Bill Russell gets the ball and backs Wilt down for a rather pedestrian lay-in with no resistance at all. Russell misses the layup but tips it in with Wilt literally just spectating..doing absolutely nothing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not the Nba Finals?

Wilt averaged 36.9 ppg 22.3 rpg in '64 yet was still outplayed by Russ, as the footage suggests. Can you imagine Wilt defending Shaq in the Finals?

:oldlol: Truth be told, I'm still waiting to see a Wilt highlight. I've a lot of his footage, just no highlights. Check that pathetic footage, and one more time, it was in the Finals!

[Yung D-Will]

My goat centers list;
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
3. Wilt
5. Hakeem
6. Moses
7. DRob
8. Mikan
9. Ewing
10. Walton


Peak wise;
1. Kareem
2. Shaq
3. Wilt
4. Hakeem
5. DRob
6. Moses
7. Russell (due to his offensive numbers, goat winnner and goat defensive player)
8. Walton
9. Ewing
10. Mikan


Why Peak Walton so low?

[Odinn]

Why Peak Walton so low?
I think there would not be any doubt about Kareem-Shaq-Wilt-Hakeem.

Admiral was almost as good as Hakeem.
Moses was better rebounder and much better scorer. Walton's defensive impact not enough to make up scoring volume imo.
Russell as I said goat winner, goat defender.

[millwad]

Here's some proof of Wilt getting "schooled"...

In your browser go to youtube and type in, "1964 nba finals G4 celtics@warriors 1/4"...pause at 3:15. Bill Russell gets the ball and backs Wilt down for a rather pedestrian lay-in with no resistance at all. Russell misses the layup but tips it in with Wilt literally just spectating..doing absolutely nothing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not the Nba Finals?

Wilt averaged 36.9 ppg 22.3 rpg in '64 yet was still outplayed by Russ, as the footage suggests. Can you imagine Wilt defending Shaq in the Finals?

:oldlol: Truth be told, I'm still waiting to see a Wilt highlight. I've a lot of his footage, just no highlights. Check that pathetic footage, and one more time, it was in the Finals!

Also in the same video, look at Wilt's FT's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5jV7WImytM

At 4:30 Wilt Chamberlain, the guy some trolls on ISH calls a player with a great outside shot and who actually was great from the FT-line attempts a FT..:facepalm

Not only did his FT's look horrible, none of them went in. In this game he only made 4-12 FT's and during the entire finals he only made pathetic 22 out of 48 FT's..

There is nothing as convincing as actually watching the available footage out there... Exposing trolls like Jlauber with actual game footage is epic! But still, all we hear is "THIS WAS WILT'S WORST GAME EVER!!!!"...:facepalm

[jlauber]

I'm still waiting on you to show me someone getting 31 rebounds vs Shaq, like Nate Thurmond did vs Wilt in game 1 of the 1967 Nba finals. Hell, Russell grabbed 20 more rebounds in Gm 7 of the '69 Finals...on his LAST LEGS. The very final game Bill Russell played, he out-rebounded Wilt by 20+.

Are you gonna rave about how great of a "winner" Wilt was? If so, why did he lose 4-1 in the 1964 finals to Bill Russell with Nate Thurmond as his teammate? Wilt had J. West averaging 37.9 ppg in the 1969 Nba finals and STILL managed to lose against Russell. Please explain. Furthermore, when has a modern player averaged 48 mpg like Wilt did? Thats not a good thing...stayed in all game in a 51 pt loss to the Celtics that yr, lol. He sure wanted those stats. :oldlol:

Bad enough you NEVER actually saw Wilt play, but then to blatantly lie to someone who did, and who KNOWS what actually happened.

First of all, Nate pulled down 31 rebounds in that game...and Chamberlain had 38. Wilt outrebounded Nate in FIVE of those six games. In fact, Wilt outrebounded Nate in their three H2H playoff series, by margins of 28.5 rpg to 26.7 rpg, 23.5 rpg to 19.5 rpg, and then, in Wilt's LAST post-season, he pounded Thurmond by a 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg margin, as well as outshooting him by a .550 to .392 margin (incidently, that series came after Thurmond reduced Kareem to a .428 shooter in the previous round, in leading his 47-35 Warriors over Kareem's 60-22 Bucks.)

Russell grabbed 21 rebounds in that game seven, in 48 minutes, while all Chamberlain did was grab 27 in his 43 minutes (and thanks to his COACH, Wilt was NOT on the floor in those last five minutes.)

And what NONSENSE is this statement that Russell outrebounded Wilt in his very last game by +20? PROVE IT. In fact, in that very last season that Russell played, Wilt POUNDED Russell, and in one game he outrebounded Russell by a 42-18 margin. So, please, go lie to someone who has no clue in what actually happened. BTW, as for being outrebounded, Chamberlain OWNED Russell on the glass in their 142 H2H meetings, and in their EIGHT post-season series. In one game, he outrebounded Russell by a staggering 55-19 margin, and in one playoff series he outrebounded Russell by a 32 rpg to 23 rpg margin.

As for Wilt having Thurmond in the '64 Finals...again, you should actually RESEARCH this stuff before you make a fool out of yourself. Thurmond was a ROOKIE, playing PART-TIME (26 mpg), and OUT OF POSITION (he was a natural center forced to play center because Wilt was playing there), AND, he shot .395 from the floor. As for why Russell's TEAM beat Wilt's TEAM that year...how about an EIGHT-TO-TWO margin in HOFers???!!!

Wilt averaged 45.2 over the course of his ENTIRE CAREER, including an eye-popping 47.2 mpg in his 160 post-season games. He was playing nearly every minute of every game, even late in his career, when it was obvious he was not interested in personal stats.

So, don't waste your time, nor mine, with any more blatant falsehoods! Go back to playing "Backyard Basketball" on your Play-Station.

[jlauber]

Here's some proof of Wilt getting "schooled"...

In your browser go to youtube and type in, "1964 nba finals G4 celtics@warriors 1/4"...pause at 3:15. Bill Russell gets the ball and backs Wilt down for a rather pedestrian lay-in with no resistance at all. Russell misses the layup but tips it in with Wilt literally just spectating..doing absolutely nothing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not the Nba Finals?

Wilt averaged 36.9 ppg 22.3 rpg in '64 yet was still outplayed by Russ, as the footage suggests. Can you imagine Wilt defending Shaq in the Finals?

:oldlol: Truth be told, I'm still waiting to see a Wilt highlight. I've a lot of his footage, just no highlights. Check that pathetic footage, and one more time, it was in the Finals!

Hmmm...in that ONE game (of which there is only a HALF that was recorded), Wilt outscored Russell 27-8, while pulling down 38 rebounds.

Of course, that was just ONE HALF of the 1200 games that Wilt played in. Find me one of his 271 40+ point games, and then we'll talk.
:facepalm :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

First of all, Nate pulled down 31 rebounds in that game...and Chamberlain had 38. Wilt outrebounded Nate in FIVE of those six games. In fact, Wilt outrebounded Nate in their three H2H playoff series, by margins of 28.5 rpg to 26.7 rpg, 23.5 rpg to 19.5 rpg, and then, in Wilt's LAST post-season, he pounded Thurmond by a 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg margin, as well as outshooting him by a .550 to .392 margin (incidently, that series came after Thurmond reduced Kareem to a .428 shooter in the previous round, in leading his 47-35 Warriors over Kareem's 60-22 Bucks.)

Russell grabbed 20+ rebounds on Wilt, not out-rebounded him. That's a typo on my part. I've presented nothing but facts, sorry to disappoint. I've done enough research to know Shaq never had a single player from his opposition get 30 on him. Not one. So because Thurmond, a rookie, only played 26MPG he didn't do diddly squat now? How about averaging 10 rebounds a game? Thrumond was pulling down 15 rebounds Per 36 minutes. So there goes that theory.

And one clip? Here's more footage... :oldlol:

"1970 nba Finals Game 7 - Lakers at Knicks - Jerry west goes South". Go to 1:56, nice defense Wilt. He was so worried about his rebounding, but only because he wanted those stats. Look at 2:28..a jumper in Wilts eye, and 3:35? A 6'9 man with a torn thigh muscle guarding Wilt in Gm 7. Wilt shoots a fadeaway. So dominant he chooses to leap away from an injured defender with the season on the line. He misses it, but even if it went in, it's a BAD SHOT. A fadeaway? Dominant? Here again, at 4:23 a fall-away finger roll! At 5:03, Bill Bradley with a shot over Wilts "elite defense". Remember, Wilt was also 1-11 from the ft line in that Game 7. The guy opened the series 1-12 fts! But of course, in your world, Wilt never cost his team wins. What a joke :oldlol:

[jlauber]

According to him Hakeem got badly outplayed in the finals of '95 vs Shaq and Nate Thurmond was better than Hakeem without no doubt. Hakeem was also only good at scoring, rebounding, shotblocking etc, he wasn't great at anything..

Then Jlauber continues with that Wilt "crushed", "schooled" and "abused" Kareem in '72 when Kareem averaged 40 points per game on 50% shooting in the regular season on Wilt. And then outscoring Wilt with 23 points per game in the series on better FG% while also outassisting Wilt and shooting FT's twice as good as Wilt.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235497&page=2

Just scroll down and read PHILA's posts on this topic.

Virtually EVERYONE who saw the '72 WCF's, including the Bucks' COACH and the MILWAUKEE press claimed that Wilt outplayed Kareem. Time Magazine called it a DECISIVE win by the 35 year old Wilt.

Only a fool like yourself, who NEVER saw ONE game of that series, would make such a FOOLISH claim. Kareem couldn't hit the Grand Canyon from the ledge in the last FOUR games of that series (shooting .414), while all his teammates could do was watch in horror as Wilt was either knocking the sky hook into the seats, or forcing Kareem into brick-and-after brick.

Here again, though, just what would a PRIME Chamberlain have carpet-bombed THAT Kareem with???!!!

[millwad]

Bad enough you NEVER actually saw Wilt play, but then to blatantly lie to someone who did, and who KNOWS what actually happened.


We all know you didn't see Wilt play, Jlauber. Stop living in your little bubble and stop namedropping players you never saw..

Jlauber who "saw" the games changed his opinion about Wilt's era more than 40 years later than the actual games, before that he used to write stuff like;

People, just check Jlauber's previous comments:




Originally Posted by jlauber
“I know both you and I will get some flak from "old-timers" about how great some of them were . . . , but realistically, todays basketball players, although many lacking in fundamental skills, are far superior to the players of the 60's.”




Originally Posted by jlauber
“the athletes are better today, no question”



Originally Posted by jlauber
“My personal opinion on athletics today is that, yes, today's athletes are generally bigger, stronger, faster, better trained, and better fed than those of 20 years ago or more.”



Originally Posted by jlauber
“The arguement that today's players and athletes are bigger, stronger, faster, better trained, better fed, have better equipment, better medical care, and yes, even better illegal performance enhancers, is indisputeable.”



Originally Posted by jlauber
“The players of today are generally, and probably considerably, bigger, stronger, faster than previous eras (obviously the further back you go, the bigger the differences.)”
[/B]

We all know you never saw the games, the only footage that was available when you changed your mind about Wilt's era was the footage we all saw on youtube, before it got deleted. So just quit it, you're just sad and we all know you never saw any of the games you spam about. When Wilt was in his stats-prime you could barely walk and the quotes above shows how full of crap you are..:facepalm

What fool do you think will fall for that nonsense anyway? You saw Wilt play but youtube-footage and quotes made you change your mind more than 40 years after the actual games..:oldlol:

[jlauber]

Russell grabbed 20+ rebounds on Wilt, not out-rebounded him. That's a typo on my part. I've presented nothing but facts, sorry to disappoint. I've done enough research to know Shaq never had a single player from his opposition get 30 on him. Not one. So because Thurmond, a rookie, only played 26MPG he didn't do diddly squat now? How about averaging 10 rebounds a game? Thrumond was pulling down 15 rebounds Per 36 minutes. So there goes that theory.

And one clip? Here's more footage... :oldlol:

"1970 nba Finals Game 7 - Lakers at Knicks - Jerry west goes South". Go to 1:56, nice defense Wilt. He was so worried about his rebounding, but only because he wanted those stats. Look at 2:28..a jumper in Wilts eye, and 3:35? A 6'9 man with a torn thigh muscle guarding Wilt in Gm 7. Wilt shoots a fadeaway. So dominant he chooses to leap away from an injured defender with the season on the line. He misses it, but even if it went in, it's a BAD SHOT. A fadeaway? Dominant? Here again, at 4:23 a fall-away finger roll! At 5:03, Bill Bradley with a shot over Wilts "elite defense". Remember, Wilt was also 1-11 from the ft line in that Game 7. The guy opened the series 1-12 fts! But of course, in your world, Wilt never cost his team wins. What a joke :oldlol:

West, while playing brillaintly in that series, was AWFUL in the first half of that game seven. Wilt shot 5-10 from the field in that first half, with 12 rebounds, while the rest of his teammates colelctively shot .333. AND, as I have stated MANY times, Wilt's 1-11 from the line did NOT cost his team THAT game. He went 1-8 from the line in the first half, when his team, which had just been blown off the floor (but NOT by Reed) to the tune of a 69-42 deficit. Even if Wilt had gone 11-11 from the line, his team would STILL have lost that game.

Of course, all Wilt did in that seven game series, was average 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and shoot .625 from the floor. And, in a "must-win" game six, he hung a 45 point, 27 rebound, 20-27 game on the Knicks.

Oh, and BTW, this was a HOBBLED Wilt, who playing only FOUR MONTHS after MAJOR KNEE SURGERY. The same surgery that basically took over a year out of Baylor's career (in fact, Baylor was never the same afterwards.)

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Oh, and BTW, this was a HOBBLED Wilt, who playing only FOUR MONTHS after MAJOR KNEE SURGERY. The same surgery that basically took over a year out of Baylor's career (in fact, Baylor was never the same afterwards.)

Poor Wilt. Meanwhile, his defender had just torn a muscle in his leg. Why are you defending him like it's a life and death situation?

So, I was just cherry picking random plays with Wilt huh? The "random" winner-take-all game 7 vs a "6'9 guy with a torn thigh muscle that Wilt took a pathetic fadeaway against? So "dominant" he lept away from the injured defender...WITH THE SEASON ON THE LINE!

And Jerry west averaged 44.3 ppg in the lakers 3 wins in the 1969 nba finals. Shouldnt Wilt be doing that? West had 84 pts in games 1 and 2 of 69 finals. Wilt scored 82 pts in the entire series...in 7 games!

[brantonli]

Scoring, efficiency, rebounding, passing, defense, and shot-blocking...Hakeem was good, but not great, at ANY.

Wow dude, I don't know what your definition of great/good is, but god damn if Hakeem is good at scoring, efficiency, merely good at rebounding, passing, good at blocking, good at defence, then.....I don't know what great is, and what the hell you would say about today's players.

[jlauber]

We all know you didn't see Wilt play, Jlauber. Stop living in your little bubble and stop namedropping players you never saw..

Jlauber who "saw" the games changed his opinion about Wilt's era more than 40 years later than the actual games, before that he used to write stuff like;

People, just check Jlauber's previous comments:












We all know you never saw the games, the only footage that was available when you changed your mind about Wilt's era was the footage we all saw on youtube, before it got deleted. So just quit it, you're just sad and we all know you never saw any of the games you spam about. When Wilt was in his stats-prime you could barely walk and the quotes above shows how full of crap you are..:facepalm

What fool do you think will fall for that nonsense anyway? You saw Wilt play but youtube-footage and quotes made you change your mind more than 40 years after the actual games..:oldlol:

Find ONE post, on THIS forum where I have ever made those claims. In fact, I have now come to the conclusion, that the GREATS of the 60's and 70's, in ALL major sports would be JUST as GREAT TODAY.

Thurmond and Wilt reducing a PRIME Kareem to ashes in the post-season...and then a 38 year old Kareem BOMBING a 23 year old Hakeem (and keep in mind that a 23 year old Kareem was leading the NBA in scoring, winning the MVP, and the FMVP) was enough for me. While an OLD Wilt and a Thurmond shut down a PRIME Kareem.

If Hakeem was truly one of the great centers of the 90's, then we KNOW that the greats of the 60's and 70's, like Thurmond, Wilt, and Kareem, would DOMINATE in today's game.

[jlauber]

Wow dude, I don't know what your definition of great/good is, but god damn if Hakeem is good at scoring, efficiency, merely good at rebounding, passing, good at blocking, good at defence, then.....I don't know what great is, and what the hell you would say about today's players.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_season.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trb_per_g_season.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg_pct_season.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

Take a look at the above. Then get back to me on what GREAT is.

[millwad]

Find ONE post, on THIS forum where I have ever made those claims. In fact, I have now come to the conclusion, that the GREATS of the 60's and 70's, in ALL major sports would be JUST as GREAT TODAY.


It's confirmed those are things you've written and it's confirmed that the only footage at that time you saw was the footage of Wilt on youtube. You have barely seen Wilt play with other words which is just sad.

Your previous comments about Wilt and his era just confirms how little you've actually seen. Keep reading quotes and boxscores, you internet-thug..:facepalm

[millwad]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_season.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trb_per_g_season.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg_pct_season.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

Take a look at the above. Then get back to me on what GREAT is.

Rebounding was the only thing he maintained while winning.. Dude was a 4th option on offense when he won the 2nd time..:facepalm

How "great"..

[jlauber]

Poor Wilt. Meanwhile, his defender had just torn a muscle in his leg. Why are you defending him like it's a life and death situation?

So, I was just cherry picking random plays with Wilt huh? The "random" winner-take-all game 7 vs a "6'9 guy with a torn thigh muscle that Wilt took a pathetic fadeaway against? So "dominant" he lept away from the injured defender...WITH THE SEASON ON THE LINE!

And Jerry west averaged 44.3 ppg in the lakers 3 wins in the 1969 nba finals. Shouldnt Wilt be doing that? West had 84 pts in games 1 and 2 of 69 finals. Wilt scored 82 pts in the entire series...in 7 games!

Reed and his TEAM swarmed Wilt for MUCH of that game seven. In fact, Reed, in the few instances where he TRIED to guard Wilt, either gave up easy baskets, or FOULED him (FOUR fouls in the first half.) Sure, Wilt missed a couple of shots against Reed in single coverage, but overall, Wilt was doubled and swarmed in the entire first half. And he got no help from his teammates. Hell, West couldn't even get the ball past half-court before Frazier was stripping him of it.

And, why did Wilt only score 82 points in the '69 Finals? Ask his COACH, who basically let Baylor fire blanks in the entire post-season (15.3 ppg on .385 shooting, while Wilt was at 13.9 ppg on .545 shooting.) The incompetent Van Breda Kolf also made this famous statement, "When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch." So, instead, he preferred Baylor shot-jacking. The SAME Baylor that scored a TOTAL of EIGHT points in the middle three games of that series (including games of 1-5 and 0-4 from the line), two of them losses, as well as shooting 8-22 in the game seven, two-point loss.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's confirmed those are things you've written and it's confirmed that the only footage at that time you saw was the footage of Wilt on youtube. You have barely seen Wilt play with other words which is just sad.

Your previous comments about Wilt and his era just confirms how little you've actually seen. Keep reading quotes and boxscores, you internet-thug..:facepalm

But he said all of those things on a different forum, it doesn't count!

What a moron. :oldlol:

[millwad]

Reed and his TEAM swarmed Wilt for MUCH of that game seven. In fact, Reed, in the few instances where he TRIED to guard Wilt, either gave up easy baskets, or FOULED him (FOUR fouls in the first half.) Sure, Wilt missed a couple of shots against Reed in single coverage, but overall, Wilt was doubled and swarmed in the entire first half. And he got no help from his teammates. Hell, West couldn't even get the ball past half-court before Frazier was stripping him of it.

And, why did Wilt only score 82 points in the '69 Finals? Ask his COACH, who basically let Baylor fire blanks in the entire post-season (15.3 ppg on .385 shooting, while Wilt was at 13.9 ppg on .545 shooting.) The incompetent Van Breda Kolf also made this famous statement, "When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch." So, instead, he preferred Baylor shot-jacking. The SAME Baylor that scored a TOTAL of EIGHT points in the middle three games of that series (including games of 1-5 and 0-4 from the line), two of them losses, as well as shooting 8-22 in the game seven, two-point loss.

Definition of excuses = WATCH previous comment..:cheers:

[millwad]

But he said all of those things on a different forum, it doesn't count!

What a moron. :oldlol:

The self-proclaimed expert, Jlauber, only saw Wilt on youtube before changing his mind about Wilt's era.

And here he is trolling about the games he "saw" and how much he knows (copy and paste a la Google)..:facepalm

[jlauber]

It's confirmed those are things you've written and it's confirmed that the only footage at that time you saw was the footage of Wilt on youtube. You have barely seen Wilt play with other words which is just sad.

Your previous comments about Wilt and his era just confirms how little you've actually seen. Keep reading quotes and boxscores, you internet-thug..:facepalm

It's CONFIRMED that YOU did NOT see Wilt play. That is the ONLY thing that is confirmed. And YOU can only bring up a COUPLE of games, out of the 1200 that Wilt played in, from YOUTUBE, as some kind of complete evidence as to the player that Wilt was. And even in THOSE games, Wilt was playing exceptionally well, albeit, he had MANY other games that were FAR greater.

YOU make these ridiculous claims that Wilt was outplayed by Kareem in the '72 WCF's, when virtually EVERYONE who watched that series, (and I saw all SIX games live), claims the exact opposite. Why is that?

[millwad]

It's CONFIRMED that YOU did NOT see Wilt play. That is the ONLY thing that is confirmed. And YOU can only bring up a COUPLE of games, out of the 1200 that Wilt played in, from YOUTUBE, as some kind of complete evidence as to the player that Wilt was. And even in THOSE games, Wilt was playing exceptionally well, albeit, he had MANY other games that were FAR greater.

I've seen just as much Wilt as you..:facepalm



YOU make these ridiculous claims that Wilt was outplayed by Kareem in the '72 WCF's, when virtually EVERYONE who watched that series, (and I saw all SIX games live), claims the exact opposite. Why is that?

You can spam all you want about those 2 articles you found, but fact still remains that Kareem first in the regular season of '72 averaged 40 points per game on Wilt and then in the playoffs he outscored Wilt with 23 points per game on better FG% and also outassisting him and shooting FT's twice as good.

And you are the biggest troll ever, you're the only troll who ever claimed that Shaq badly outplayed Hakeem in '95 and that Thurmond was a better player than Hakeem..:facepalm

AND YOU CLAIM THAT I MAKE RIDICULOUS CLAIMS...:facepalm

[brantonli]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_season.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trb_per_g_season.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg_pct_season.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

Take a look at the above. Then get back to me on what GREAT is.

I take stats seriously, but damn I had to laugh when I saw Andris Biedrins and Tyson Chandler, Steve Johnson (3 times!) in top 20 for FG%. They really do embody greatness.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Reed and his TEAM swarmed Wilt for MUCH of that game seven.

And, why did Wilt only score 82 points in the '69 Finals? Ask his COACH, who basically let Baylor fire blanks in the entire post-season (15.3 ppg on .385 shooting, while Wilt was at 13.9 ppg on .545 shooting.) The incompetent Van Breda Kolf also made this famous statement, "When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch." So, instead, he preferred Baylor shot-jacking. The SAME Baylor that scored a TOTAL of EIGHT points in the middle three games of that series (including games of 1-5 and 0-4 from the line), two of them losses, as well as shooting 8-22 in the game seven, two-point loss.

All I see is excuses. A bunch of revisionist history to boot. What about Wilt's scoring in other big games? Check the game 7's he played vs Boston...

1962: Wilt scores 22 pts in game 7 vs the Celtics. Sam Jones scored 28 pts
1965: scores 30 pts in Game 7 vs the Celtics. Jones scored 37 pts
1968: scores 14 pts in Game 7 vs the Celtics. Jones scored 22 pts
1969: scores 18 pts in Game 7 vs the Celtics. Jones scored 24 pts in his final professional game. However, since Sam Jones fouled out, Wilt must be better. After all, Wilt never fouled out!! He also never came within 5 pts of outscoring sam jones in a Game 7. And the games were decided by 2, 1, 4, and 2 pts.

Wilt outscored Sam Jones in ALL 10 REGULAR SEASONS they were in the Nba ....just not in the FOUR game 7's vs the celtics..where all of his losses were close and led by Wilt.

[jlauber]

Of course, Millwad is the same liar who claimed that Hakeem did NOT guard Kareem in those 40 point explosions. Or that Wilt did NOT block 15+ of his sky-hooks in the '72 WCF's. Or that Barkley did NOT outrebounded Hakeem by FOUR per game in the 96-97 season. Or that Wilt was SELDOM double-teamed.

I could go on, but YOUR credibility has been blown to shreds here.

[jlauber]

All I see is excuses. A bunch of revisionist history to boot. What about Wilt's scoring in other big games? Check the game 7's he played vs Boston...

1962: Wilt scores 22 pts in game 7 vs the Celtics. Sam Jones scored 28 pts
1965: scores 30 pts in Game 7 vs the Celtics. Jones scored 37 pts
1968: scores 14 pts in Game 7 vs the Celtics. Jones scored 22 pts
1969: scores 18 pts in Game 7 vs the Celtics. Jones scored 24 pts in his final professional game. However, since Sam Jones fouled out, Wilt must be better. After all, Wilt never fouled out!! He also never came within 5 pts of outscoring sam jones in a Game 7. And the games were decided by 2, 1, 4, and 2 pts.

Wilt outscored Sam Jones in ALL 10 REGULAR SEASONS they were in the Nba ....just not in the FOUR game 7's vs the celtics..where all of his losses were close and led by Wilt.

So you are claiming that Sam Jones was a greater player than Wilt? BTW, was Sam Jones the leading scorer in the '62 ECF's. Or the '64 Finals? Or the '65 ECF's? And how about rebounding and FG%'s in ALL of those series?

Furthermore, if Jones was the greater player because he outscored Wilt, then Russell must be WAY down your list, then.

[Legends66NBA7]

Good to see the love birds are back at it.

*Puts popcorn in the microwave*

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So you are claiming that Sam Jones was a greater player than Wilt? BTW, was Sam Jones the leading scorer in the '62 ECF's. Or the '64 Finals? Or the '65 ECF's? And how about rebounding and FG%'s in ALL of those series?

Not at all. What I am saying, is Jones actually showed up to play in those Gm 7's. The entire point of the post was to show Wilt's play, or lack there of in BIG GAMES.

[millwad]

Of course, Millwad is the same liar who claimed that Hakeem did NOT guard Kareem in those 40 point explosions. Or that Wilt did NOT block 15+ of his sky-hooks in the '72 WCF's. Or that Barkley did NOT outrebounded Hakeem by FOUR per game in the 96-97 season. Or that Wilt was SELDOM double-teamed.

I could go on, but YOUR credibility has been blown to shreds here.

Wilt didn't block 15 of Kareem's skyhooks in '72 WCF..:facepalm
And haha, you're the last one who should question anyone's credibility, people are laughing at you.. You changed your opinion over some youtube-footage and quotes... HAHA!

[jlauber]

Not at all. What I am saying, is Jones actually showed up to play in those Gm 7's. The entire point of the post was to show Wilt's play, or lack there of in BIG GAMES.

In his four game seven's against Russell, all Wilt did was outscore Russell, per game, 21.3 to 13.2 ppg, outrebound Russell, per game, 28.5 to 24.5 rpg, and shoot a staggering .643 against Russell. I could only come up with three of Russell's four games, but in those three, he shot a combined .432 in them.

As for Wilt's NINE game seven's, all he did was average 24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and shoot .626 from the floor, which is the HIGHEST FG% among the all-time "greats" in game seven history.

BTW, how about Wilt's opposing centers in those game seven's?

He was NEVER outscored in a game seven by an opposing center, and was only outrebounded in ONE game, by Russell (22-21.)

Oh, and BTW, in a game five, of a best-of-five series, Chamberlain hung a 56-35 game on Syracuse.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

In his four game seven's against Russell, all Wilt did was outscore Russell, per game, 21.3 to 13.2 ppg, outrebound Russell, per game, 28.5 to 24.5 rpg, and shoot a staggering .643 against Russell. I could only come up with three of Russell's four games, but in those three, he shot a combined .432 in them.

Yes, that's right. Avoid the overwhelming facts using yet another angle that will exclude Wilt from criticism. Well played, Jlauber. Unfortunately, I see right through your little game.

Yes, and all Russell did was hold Wilt's scoring down by 5-8+ PPG (depending on the series). All I see is listing Wilt's numbers, like you do with his regular season accomplishments, but how many rings are there to show? 2? One Finals MVP? Wilt was also held to 89 points in 7 games vs. Russell in '69.


24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and shoot .626 from the floor, which is the HIGHEST FG% among the all-time "greats" in game seven history.

I may be wrong, but aren't his PPG drastically higher in the regular season?

No..wait, nevermind, I'm right. They are higher. Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg then proceeded to drop 22 pts the same year in a game 7 loss to Russell and the. NOT EVEN HALF HIS AVERAGE. Wilt has never averaged 40ppg in the playoffs; his teammate Jerry West has though. Shaq/Hakeem/Mikan all averaged a higher ppg than Wilt in the playoffs. Wilt needs to stick to dominating cupcakes.

[jlauber]

Yes, that's right. Avoid the overwhelming facts using yet another angle that will exclude Wilt from criticism. Well played, Jlauber. Unfortunately, I see right through your little game.

Yes, and all Russell did was hold Wilt's scoring down by 5-8+ PPG (depending on the series). All I see is listing Wilt's numbers, like you do with his regular season accomplishments, but how many rings are there to show? 2? One Finals MVP? Wilt was also held to 89 points in 7 games vs. Russell in '69.



I may be wrong, but aren't his PPG drastically higher in the regular season?

No..wait, nevermind, I'm right. They are higher. Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg then proceeded to drop 22 pts the same year in a game 7 loss to Russell and the. NOT EVEN HALF HIS AVERAGE. Wilt has never averaged 40ppg in the playoffs; his teammate Jerry West has though. Shaq/Hakeem/Mikan all averaged a higher ppg than Wilt in the playoffs. Wilt needs to stick to dominating cupcakes.

Wilt had FOUR post-seasons, just against Russell, of 30+ ppg, and another two of 29 ppg and 28 ppg...including one of 30 ppg and 31 rpg. As for his "drop" in the '62 ECF's...yep, Wilt could only average 34 ppg on .468 shooting against Russell...which was WAY below his 38 ppg and .471 shooting against Russell (and the swarming Celtic defense) that he had in their 10 regular season H2H's. :facepalm

Chamberlain had FOUR 40-30 games in the post-season, just against Russell, including a "must-win" game five of 50-35, and another "must-win" game five of 46-34.

Of course, Wilt also held his opposing centers to WAY below their normal regular season numbers, as well. BUT, idiots like yourself, NEVER bring up that fact. A PRIME Kareem shot .481 and .457 against an OLD Wilt in their two H2H post-season series...in years in which Kareem shot .577 and .574.

He also held Russell to a series of .358 in a year in which he shot .454; Kerr to series of .296 and .341; Thurmond to under .400 THREE post-season series (.398, .392, and .343); and Bellamy, who had shot .541 in the regular season, to .421 shooting in the '68 playoffs. And I'm very certain that Wilt held Russell WAY down in several more H2H series.

And, of course, Wilt OUTREBOUNDED ALL of his opposing centers in his 29 post-season series. And he faced a HOF center in 99 of his 160 playoff games.

[Smoke117]

This thread was more interesting when it debated Jordan being there in 94 and the teams going at it...then you guys had to make it this big obnoxious Center argument...yawn. By the way, I noticed the Lack of Moses Malone...literally the least appreciated player in basketball history.

[Yung D-Will]

This thread was more interesting when it debated Jordan being there in 94 and the teams going at it...then you guys had to make it this big obnoxious Center argument...yawn. By the way, I noticed the Lack of Moses Malone...literally the least appreciated player in basketball history.

First post I've seen in which you don't randomly curse for no reason.

And Moses gets enough respect.

[jlauber]

This thread was more interesting when it debated Jordan being there in 94 and the teams going at it...then you guys had to make it this big obnoxious Center argument...yawn. By the way, I noticed the Lack of Moses Malone...literally the least appreciated player in basketball history.

I have mentioned Moses. THREE MVPS, a 31.1 ppg season, a 17.6 rpg season (and the next guy was at 12.8 rpg), a FMVP, and two post-season H2H's in which he outplayed Kareem.

[Smoke117]

First post I've seen in which you don't randomly curse for no reason.

And Moses gets enough respect.

I guess we can't all be Rhodes Scholars with elaborate vocabularies eh, mate?

[millwad]

I have mentioned Moses. THREE MVPS, a 31.1 ppg season, a 17.6 rpg season (and the next guy was at 12.8 rpg), a FMVP, and two post-season H2H's in which he outplayed Kareem.

Hidden agenda, and you do it because you are mad...:facepalm
But no one really takes anything you write seriously, Youtube-Lauber.

[Yung D-Will]

I guess were not all Rhodes Scholars with elaborate vocabularies eh, mate?
Nah you just curse and I imagine you yelling in the most random situations. I have this this theory that you're actually Stephen A Smith

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wilt had FOUR post-seasons, just against Russell, of 30+ ppg

And was held to less than half of his PPG vs. Russell in '64, which is what I originally pointed out, and you eloquently ignored. Again, more excuses and subject changing than an actual argument (or at the very least accepting the facts). I'll take that as you waiving the white flag.

Again, where are all wilts rings? To get his 2 rings, Wilt didnt even lead his own team in playoff ppg. In '67 he was outscored by Hal Greer and tied Chet Walker with 326 playoffs points. In the 1972 postseason, Wilt was outscored by Gail Goodrich, Jerry west and Jim Mcmillan.

For comparisons sake, Shaq outscored Kobe in 3 straight title runs. Wilt couldnt even outscore his teammate Jim Mcmillan to win his 2nd ring....JIM MCMILLAN!!! To go into further detail, Shaq's career high is 21.1 fgas per game. Where's the shotjacking? Wilt on the otherhand averaged a whopping 32.1 fgas...AS A ROOKIE!! This while shooting .461%. Wilt jacked up 25.2 fgas in '66, the lowest amount of fgas per game in a scoring title year. Forget about the Celtics, he got his ass kicked twice by the Knicks and was swept by the 38-41 Syracuse Nationals.

How many losing teams was Shaq swept by? I rest my case.

[Smoke117]

Nah you just curse and I imagine you yelling in the most random situations. I have this this theory that you're actually Stephen A Smith

Nah as in other threads as I've stated, I drink a lot, and as it's no surprise the more you drink the more your tongue loosens up.

[jlauber]

And was held to less than half of his PPG vs. Russell in '64, which is what I originally pointed out, and you eloquently ignored. Again, more excuses and subject changing than an actual argument (or at the very least accepting the facts). I'll take that as you waiving the white flag.

Again, where are all wilts rings? To get his 2 rings, Wilt didnt even lead his own team in playoff ppg. In '67 he was outscored by Hal Greer and tied Chet Walker with 326 playoffs points. In the 1972 postseason, Wilt was outscored by Gail Goodrich, Jerry west and Jim Mcmillan.

For comparisons sake, Shaq outscored Kobe in 3 straight title runs. Wilt couldnt even outscore his teammate Jim Mcmillan to win his 2nd ring....JIM MCMILLAN!!! To go into further detail, Shaq's career high is 21.1 fgas per game. Where's the shotjacking? Wilt on the otherhand averaged a whopping 32.1 fgas...AS A ROOKIE!! This while shooting .461%. Wilt jacked up 25.2 fgas in '66, the lowest amount of fgas per game in a scoring title year. Forget about the Celtics, he got his ass kicked twice by the Knicks and was swept by the 38-41 Syracuse Nationals.

How many losing teams was Shaq swept by? I rest my case.

First of all, I don't why I am even discussing this with you, since it is pretty obvious that you and Dickwad are the same poster.

Secondly, Wilt averaged 29 ppg against Russell in the '64 Finals, which was under his 36.9 ppg season average...but not HALF.

And where are Wilt's rings...look no further than Russell's fingers, as well as his HOF teammates. BTW, Wilt did BEAT Russell and Celtics, and ended their EIGHT straight titles. AND, he came within NINE points (2, 1, 4, and 2 points), overall, in FOUR game seven's of winning FOUR more rings.

Wilt shooting .461 in his rookie season, came in a league that shot .410. ONCE AGAIN, Wilt outshot the league average by a sizeable margin (.051.) Incidently take a look at Hakeem's BEST season. He shot .534 in a league that shot .492...or a .042 margin, which was still not as great a differential as Wilt had in that rookie season. Of course, Chamberlain would go on to outshoot the league by as much as .244 and even .271 later in his career. Find me another player that even approached a .200 differential.

Chamberlain led the NBA in scoring in '66, at 33.5 ppg, along with leading the league in rebounding, at 24.6 rpg, and setting a then-record of .540 from the field, as well as handing out 5.2 apg. Incidently, ALL of those numbers were better than ANY year, in ANY of those categories, by Hakeem. Oh, and BTW, he also LED his team to the BEST RECORD in the league that year (something Hakeem NEVER did.)

Wilt won the FMVP in the year that West, Goodrich, and McMillian scored more points, and was BY FAR, their most CLUTCH player in the post-season...as well as outplaying a PRIME Kareem. In the '67 post-season, Wilt put up the most dominant post-season in NBA history.

Yes, Wilt's TEAM was swept by the Nationals, in a series in which Wilt averaged 37 ppg and 23 rpg, and shot .469 (in a league that shot .415.) His opposing center averaged 9 ppg, 12 rpg, and shot .341 in the post-season, and half of those games were against Wilt (and the year before, Wilt held that same player to a .296 FG% in the post-season.)

As for Shaq...he may not have been swept by a losing team, but he his team's were swept SIX times in the playoffs.

He also BEAT the Knicks, and their HOF-laden rosters, TWICE in the post-season, and his losses came against teams with FOUR and SIX HOFers. Find me a series in which Hakeem ever faced FOUR HOFers.

I REST MY CASE.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

First of all, I don't why I am even discussing this with you, since it is pretty obvious that you and Dickwad are the same poster.

I only need one account to expose your idiocy. Me and Milward are two completely different posters, deal with it.


Secondly, Wilt averaged 29 ppg against Russell in the '64 Finals

Is that not half of 50ppg, i.e. in 62? :facepalm


As for Shaq...he may not have been swept by a losing team, but he his team's were swept SIX times in the playoffs.

He also BEAT the Knicks, and their HOF-laden rosters, TWICE in the post-season, and his losses came against teams with FOUR and SIX HOFers. Find me a series in which Hakeem ever faced FOUR HOFers.

I REST MY CASE.

As for Shaq? First of all, Shaq has 2 Finals Mvps over Wilt. Check and mate. Nothing will ever change that. Wilt put up 22.5 ppg in 47.2 mpg in the playoffs. Shaq averaged 24.3 ppg in 37.5 mpg in playoffs - advantage Shaq. In way less minutes, I might add. Furthermore, Wilt averaged 21.7 ppg in his '67 playoff title run (which is considered his 'best title run'), and just 14.7 ppg in his '72 playoff title run. Meanwhile, Shaq averaged 30.7 ppg in his '00 playoff title run, 30.4 ppg in his '01 playoff title run, and finally 28.5 ppg in his '02 playoff title run.

Shaq outscored Kobe during the Lakers title runs. Wilt could NOT outscore Jim Mcmillan during the Lakers 1972 title run. When the good teams were left, there were no more high scoring games for Wilty. :oldlol:

[jlauber]

I only need one account to expose your idiocy. Me and Milward are two completely different posters, deal with it.



Hard to believe that there could be TWO identical posters this stupid...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hard to believe that there could be TWO identical posters this stupid...

Hard to believe there are others that think you need help? Your fetish for Wilt is disturbing, G.O.A.T and Regula8r both agree.

Stupid happens anytime you put Wilt in the same sentence as Russell as winners.

[jlauber]

Hard to believe there are others that think you need help? Your fetish for Wilt is disturbing, G.O.A.T and Regula8r both agree.

Stupid happens anytime you put Wilt in the same sentence as Russell as winners.

Of course, that would also apply to Hakeem, Bird, Shaq, Kareem, and even MJ, as well.

And yet, Wilt DID beat Russell (and soundly) one season, and nearly beat his team's on FOUR more occasions. The ACTUAL difference between Russell holding a 7-1 H2H playoff edge against Wilt-led teams, and Wilt holding a 5-3 margin over Russell, was by a TOTAL of NINE points.

As for "winning", Chamberlain played on TWELVE teams with winning records (and no player ever did more for team's with losing records...including nearly upsetting the 62-18 Celtics in the '65 ECF's), and TWELVE teams that made it to the Conference Finals. He played on SIX teams that had the best record in the conference. He played on SIX teams that were divisional champs. He played on FOUR teams that won 60+ games. He played on FOUR teams that had the BEST RECORD in the league. And he anchored TWO teams that went 68-13, and 69-13, and with each winning overwhelming titles.

Oh, and how much help did Wilt have in the post-season? In his first six post-seasons, and in years in which he single-handedly carried two putrid rosters to within an eyelash of beating Russell's dynasty, and another awful roster to a Finals...Wilt's teammates collectively shot .382, .380, .354, .352, .352, and .332. THEN, in game seven of the '68 Finals, Wilt's teammates not only did NOT pass him the ball, they collectively shot .333. In game seven of the '69 Finals, Wilt shot .875 for the game from the field...his teammates shot .360. In the first half of game seven of the '70 Finals, Wilt shot 5-10 from the floor....his teammates shot .333. In the '71 WCF's, Wilt had to battle the 66-16 Bucks without West and Baylor...BOTH of whom missed the entire playoffs. In Wilt' last Finals, he shot .524 from the floor in that five game series...his teammates collectively shot .429. If Wilt were guilty of anything in the post-season, it was that he somehow got his teammates to play much worse than they did in the regular season, even though Chamberlain, himself, played pretty much the exact same style as he did in the regular season.

BTW, for all his greatness, Russell played on only three teams that won 60+ games. Bird played on only eight teams that made it to the Conference Finals. And, of course, Hakeem never played on even ONE team that had the best record in the league, nor a team that won more than 58 games. And, he guided his team's to EIGHT first-round playoff exits.

[nycelt84]

To say that Hakeem Olajuwon was never considered the best player in the league shows an astounding lack of knowledge of NBA history and clearly shows someone who couldn't have possibly been watching basketball in '94 and '95. After the '95 season and heading into the 95-96 season Hakeem was definitely considered the best player in the game even with MJ being back. There are too many articles and videos and people who were alive at that time watching basketball and posting on this board to verify that.

[Kovach]

He was not better than a PRIME Shaq.
Depends on whether you put more stock into basketball skill or into physical constitution, unless you'd like to argue that the ability to dunk over physically inferior opponents or the ability to move them out of the way with your enormous ass are most relevant of the basketball fundamentals.

[Yung D-Will]

Depends on whether you put more stock into basketball skill or into physical constitution, unless you'd like to argue that the ability to dunk over physically inferior opponents or the ability to move them out of the way with your enormous ass are most relevant of the basketball fundamentals.
What ever gives you 2 points.

[32Dayz]

Shaq was one of the most skilled Big's ever. Obviously he was less skilled then say Hakeem, Kareem or Duncan but he is still on the very short list of Most Skilled ever at his position.

He was one of the best passers ever at the C Position.
He had a number of very accurate almost unblockable hook shots that went out to 10-12 feet, a bunch of beautiful spin moves and some of the best footwork, ballcontrol, soft touch and coordination ever for a bigman to go along with his overpowering strength and athleticism.

:oldlol: @ Idiots thinking he just pushed people and dunked, only 25-27% of his career points came off Dunks.

[Yung D-Will]

Shaq was one of the most skilled Big's ever. Obviously he was less skilled then say Hakeem, Kareem or Duncan but he is still on the very short list of Most Skilled ever at his position.

He was one of the best passers ever at the C Position.
He had a number of very accurate almost unblockable hook shots that went out to 10-12 feet, a bunch of beautiful spin moves and some of the best footwork, ballcontrol, soft touch and coordination ever for a bigman to go along with his overpowering strength and athleticism.

:oldlol: @ Idiots thinking he just pushed people and dunked, only 25-27% of his career points came off Dunks.

Yea I do find it retarded when people claim all Shaq did was dunk it basiclly proves that they didn't watch him.

[millwad]

:oldlol: @ Idiots thinking he just pushed people and dunked, only 25-27% of his career points came off Dunks.

Shaq was very skilled, just look at Shaq in '95 playoffs, even at that age he was more skilled than many other all-time greats on the center position..

Shaq doesn't get cred for his actual skillset which is a shame, sure, he pushed around people too but the guy was so much more than dunks and pushes..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Of course, that would also apply to Bird, Shaq, Kareem, and even MJ, as well.

Wrong as usual Jlauber. I do like Wilt, one of my favorite centers ever. I simply won't abide your m*sturbatory fantasies. Take it elsewhere kiddo. I know you hate REALITY and prefer your fantastic m*sturbatory speculations. Go pleasure yourself kid and leave the intelligent discussions to us adults.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hakeem wasn't a dominant scorer.

Another clear revelation that you just don't have a clue as to what was happening in the Nba at that time. First of all, Hakeem LED THE PLAYOFFS N SCORING DURING BOTH RUNS. I guess the +50% shooting efficiency is thrown out the window NOW n another silly attempt of yours to nitpick anything you can in your useless effort to throw rocks at Hakeem's legacy.

Hakeem ousted Shaq on the Nba's grandest stage - the finals, and it will forever ruin your life. Hakeem MOP on a losing team, like the great Jerry West. Name one center who's playmaking numbers MATCHED Hakeem's during his title run. Name one. Hakeem's passing is so overlooked & it shouldn't be when you read what he did. No slight to Michael Jordan at all, but Dream's ast% RIVAL HIS DURING HIS 2ND ADVENT IN THE NBA PLAYOFFS:

MJ'S AST%'S '95 - 22.5%, '96 - 21.2%, '97 - 25.7%, '98 - 19.9%

Damn, Dream's '95 sweep of Shaq & the Magic truly screwed you up mentally.

[32Dayz]

The Rockets ousted the Magic in the Finals

Fixed.

The difference in that series was Hakeem's Roleplayers stepping up in the Clutch and thoroughly outplaying the Magic's Roleplayers.

Hakeem at best played Shaq to a wash or "ever so slightly" outplayed him and that's being generous.

Hakeem was one of the greatest scorers ever though at his Peak.
Definitly Top 10 GOAT Scorer at his Peak/Prime maybe even Top 5/6.

Also you asked what Center matched Hakeems playmaking in that Series. Shaq was a better play maker in the 95 Finalz.
He averaged 6.3 APG.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Fixed.

The difference in that series was Hakeem's Roleplayers stepping up in the Clutch and thoroughly outplaying the Magic's Roleplayers.

Hakeem at best played Shaq to a wash or "ever so slightly" outplayed him and that's being generous.

Hakeem was one of the greatest scorers ever though at his Peak.
Definitly Top 10 GOAT Scorer at his Peak/Prime maybe even Top 5/6.

Also you asked what Center matched Hakeems playmaking in that Series. Shaq was a better play maker in the 95 Finalz.
He averaged 6.3 APG.

I believe Hakeem ousted (or "outplayed") Shaq too, though. Not substantially, I do give him the edge though.

And no, I asked who's playmaking was better than Hakeem's during both his title runs, not a single series. Please read correctly, good sir.

[Smoke117]

By the standards of any rules in the eras he played in, Shaq should have fouled out within 25 minutes. His game was built on continuous offensive fouls they just let go.

[32Dayz]

By the standards of any rules in the eras he played in, Shaq should have fouled out within 25 minutes. His game was built on continuous offensive fouls they just let go.

:facepalm

Using your strength to post someone up is an 0ffensive foul?

He'd occasionally get away with an elbow to someones face but thats about as far as it go's and all the times players hacked him and no foul was called more then cancels that out 10x over..

In the 95 Series he was playing like Hakeem mostly using finesse and very smooth skillful hook shots and short jumpers.

gtfo... you drunk!

[Smoke117]

:facepalm

Using your strength to post someone up is an 0ffensive foul?

He'd occasionally get away with an elbow to someones face but thats about as far as it go's and all the times players hacked him and no foul was called more then cancels that out 10x over..

In the 95 Series he was playing like Hakeem mostly using finesse and very smooth skillful hook shots and short jumpers.

gtfo... you drunk!

Just lowering your shoulder and bowling people over and dunking the ball is an offensive foul though and he did that all the time.

[32Dayz]

Just lowering your shoulder and bowling people over and dunking the ball is an offensive foul though and he did that all the time.

Bowling people over? He posted people up using his strength.

Should he not take advantage of his strength to push people back while posting up and getting good position for Dunks and Layups?

Jesus Christ.

Blaming the Ref's for a players greatness is the dumbest and most pathetic thing you can do.

I am sure from 93-05 the Ref's just decided to let Oneal do whatever he wants cause they just love him so much.

:facepalm

[PTB Fan]

I'm a huge Shaq fan, but Hakeem outplayed him in the 95 Finals although they were close.

Still, it was a great battle.

[32Dayz]

I can role with Hakeem "slightly outplaying him" mostly because he did a better job stepping up in key moments.
But if you remove that its honestly a wash.

Probably the greatest H2H Center battle ever in the history of the game.

Both so skilled... so athletic and so hungry for that Chip.

[PTB Fan]

I can role with Hakeem "slightly outplaying him" mostly because he did a better job stepping up in key moments.
But if you remove that its honestly a wash.

Probably the greatest H2H Center battle ever in the history of the game.

Both so skilled... so athletic and so hungry for that Chip.

It was definitely close as the stats suggest, but Shaq himself said that he got outplayed so i will respect that.

[rodman91]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1003/rare.shaq.photos/images/robinson-hakeem-shaq-640246.jpg