Steve Nash vs Chris Paul

[rodman91]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--VFQUuXeEGU/Tj663o_oqxI/AAAAAAAAAkE/3pVXSsXCu-Q/s1600/chris_paul_dunk.jpg

VS

http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/21/2100/EWQ2D00Z/posterler/steve-nash.jpg


I have seen some posters say Paul > Nash..What do you think?


http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/2489384/img/Other---Misc/steve-nash-chris-paul-pose.jpg

[Miller for 3]

Nash has better hair. Chris has the cuter butt. :cheers:

[Yung D-Will]

Right now? Paul

All time Nash by far. And I doubt Paul's knees will honestly hold on long enough to challenge him on that

[Kevin_Gamble]

How about Nash & Bron vs. Paul & Tebow? I got Brosh.

[RRR3]

Peak vs. Peak, CP3 wins.

[Miserio]

CP3 and it ain't really close

[D-Wade316]

Peak? Paul. Not even close

21.1ppg, 11.6apg, 4.0rpg, 57.6ts%, 52.4efg% + elite defense
15.5ppg, 11.5apg, 3.3rpg, 60.6ts%, 55.7effg%

Career wise? I'd take Nash with a heartbeat.

[magnax1]

Peak vs Peak, I'll take Nash pretty easily. On the offensive side, I don't think there is much Paul can do that Nash doesn't do better.

[Go Getter]

Peak vs Peak, I'll take Nash pretty easily. On the offensive side, I don't think there is much Paul can do that Nash doesn't do better.
:facepalm

[DMV2]

Peak vs Peak, I'll take Nash pretty easily. On the offensive side, I don't think there is much Paul can do that Nash doesn't do better.
Paul can post defenders up and play back to the basket. Can Nash do that?

[DaPerceive]

Paul can post defenders up and play back to the basket. Can Nash do that?
Um what? I have seen him do it like a few times but I doubt he can consistently do it and consistently does it in general. Nash in his peak/prime was a better offensive player than Paul was. Overall? Peak Paul was better than any version of Nash. Peak Paul is the best PG since Magic Johnson, but Nash is the greatest offensive PG after Magic Johnson.

[magnax1]

:facepalm
What can Paul do? He scored more statistically, but I don't see how he's a better scorer. He scored something like 2 more ppg while playing quite a bit more minutes and shooting a considerably lower %. I'm quite sure Nash was capable of making up the difference in scoring. However, I just don't think I've ever seen Paul improve his team mates like Nash as.
I think when people say Paul is better they're generally going to talk about defense, but I don't think that's really a legitimate argument when talking about point guards.

[D-Wade316]

What can Paul do? He scored more statistically, but I don't see how he's a better scorer. He scored something like 2 more ppg while playing quite a bit more minutes and shooting a considerably lower %. I'm quite sure Nash was capable of making up the difference in scoring. However, I just don't think I've ever seen Paul improve his team mates like Nash as.
I think when people say Paul is better they're generally going to talk about defense, but I don't think that's really a legitimate argument when talking about point guards.
Then you may not have witnessed 07-09 Paul.

[yobore]

Peakwise, it's CP. Nash may give you a few % on his TS but he more than takes it away with the turnover difference.

Careerwise, Nash is obviously ahead, but I think CP is about to have a second peak and I think he has the intensity to win a ring if he ends up on any of several teams that aren't the Hornets.

[Go Getter]

What can Paul do? He scored more statistically, but I don't see how he's a better scorer. He scored something like 2 more ppg while playing quite a bit more minutes and shooting a considerably lower %. I'm quite sure Nash was capable of making up the difference in scoring. However, I just don't think I've ever seen Paul improve his team mates like Nash as.
I think when people say Paul is better they're generally going to talk about defense, but I don't think that's really a legitimate argument when talking about point guards.
Defense is supposed to be played by all 5 guys not just forwards and centers.

[magnax1]

Defense is supposed to be played by all 5 guys not just forwards and centers.
Never said it wasn't, but a point guard just doesn't have the sway of any other position. The only point guards I've ever seen make a big impact are the ones that guard multiple positions, with maybe a couple exceptions.

[D-Wade316]

Never said it wasn't, but a point guard just doesn't have the sway of any other position. The only point guards I've ever seen make a big impact are the ones that guard multiple positions, with maybe a couple exceptions.
The league is full of up and coming pgs. So isn't it an advantage of Paul being able to guard the best pgs?

[Go Getter]

Never said it wasn't, but a point guard just doesn't have the sway of any other position. The only point guards I've ever seen make a big impact are the ones that guard multiple positions, with maybe a couple exceptions.
PG has just as much "sway" as any other position. If there is a mismatch at ANY position in the pros it will be exposed.

Your team is as strong as the weakest link.

Nash not being able to guard PG's exposes his bigs to foul trouble and cause unnecessary switches.

[DaPerceive]

The league is full of up and coming pgs. So isn't it an advantage of Paul being able to guard the best pgs?
CP3 is nothing special as far as man to man defense goes but he is a fantastic help defender.

[magnax1]

The league is full of up and coming pgs. So isn't it an advantage of Paul being able to guard the best pgs?
Paul isn't even a very good one on one defender in the first place. I'm not saying the advantage isn't there, but I don't think it's the determining factor at all. I just don't think either of them make a large impact, positive or negative, on the defensive end.

[DMV2]

In terms of overselling flops, Paul is the greatest of all time. Even better than Vlade, Bell or Manu.

[Go Getter]

Chris Paul competes on the defensive end. His steals record is nothing to scoff at.

[D-Wade316]

CP3 is nothing special as far as man to man defense goes but he is a fantastic help defender.
Well yeah. Defense, as we know, isn't just about one-on-one. It includes defensive rebound, pick-n-roll defense, playing the passing lanes, fighting through screens, etc.

[Go Getter]

In terms of overselling flops, Paul is the greatest of all time. Even better than Vlade, Bell or Manu.
Nash ain't no slouch either, he acted like Horry hit him with a haymaker instead of a little bump that one game, lol

[donald_trump]

Chris Paul competes on the defensive end. His steals record is nothing to scoff at.

so does nash.

he has a great charge draw rate. not to mention he doesnt get lit up as much as guards like tony parker and rose.

[magnax1]

PG has just as much "sway" as any other position. If there is a mismatch at ANY position in the pros it will be exposed.

Your team is as strong as the weakest link.

Nash not being able to guard PG's exposes his bigs to foul trouble and cause unnecessary switches.
It definitely doesn't have the same sway. There are few point guards who are good at staying in front of other points in the first place (especially since the handchecking change) They almost all rely on the rest of the defense to back them up more, and almost none of them can do anything once they're guarding another position. I don't see how they have the same impact as any other position in terms of defense. I've never seen a point guard have as much impact as even the worst DPOTY big man.

[Go Getter]

It definitely doesn't have the same sway. There are few point guards who are good at staying in front of other points in the first place (especially since the handchecking change) They almost all rely on the rest of the defense to back them up more, and almost none of them can do anything once they're guarding another position. I don't see how they have the same impact as any other position in terms of defense. I've never seen a point guard have as much impact as even the worst DPOTY big man.


Nevertheless, being able to guard your position is key. It's doesn't matter who shot JR......defense is important for everyone, and if a player can't stick his position, his status should be affected by it.

[Go Getter]

so does nash.

he has a great charge draw rate. not to mention he doesnt get lit up as much as guards like tony parker and rose.
:oldlol:

Gtfoh.


They don't even let Nash guard Rose when the Bulls play the Suns because they know Rose would own him.

[donald_trump]

Nash ain't no slouch either, he acted like Horry hit him with a haymaker instead of a little bump that one game, lol

since joining phoenix nash has average about .7 charges a game. add that onto his steals tally since it counts as a turnover and your team gets the ball again.

hes pretty much at 1-1.5 steals per game in his phoenix days.

compare that to someone like rose. averaged 0.1 charges last season.
how about tony parker? 0.14 last season.

[Go Getter]

since joining phoenix nash has average about .7 charged a game. add that onto his steals tally since it counts as a turnover and your team gets the ball again.

hes pretty much at 1-1.5 steals per game in his phoenix days.

compare that to someone like rose. averaged 0.1 charges last season.
how about tony parker? 0.14 last season.
You might want to ice your obliques after that extreme reach.

Nash doesn't stick good defense....he's pretty bad. Stats and emotional statements won't change that.

[donald_trump]

:oldlol:

Gtfoh.


They don't even let Nash guard Rose when the Bulls play the Suns because they know Rose would own him.

yeah, how embarrassing for nash. he cant guard one of the best players in the league... what was the point of that statement? a lot of starting point guards dont guard rose.

[donald_trump]

You might want to ice your obliques after that extreme reach.

Nash doesn't stick good defense....he's pretty bad. Stats and emotional statements won't change that.

umm its not a reach lol. there are advanced statistical sites that show it. :oldlol:

[Go Getter]

umm its not a reach lol. there are advanced statistical sites that show it. :oldlol:


It's a reach to add charges to steals and surmise that's he's an adroit defender.

And again, my point was and still is that the best players at their positions can GUARD their position.

[bdreason]

CP3 was a better player at his peak. Nash has obviously had the better career.

[brisbaneman]

Nash is obviously better. You cannot win with Chris Paul. Real NBA aficionados know the reason why.

[brisbaneman]

CP3 was a better player at his peak. Nash has obviously had the better career.

Of course, [insert name of black player] always has a greater peak than [white player]

[Go Getter]

Nash is obviously better. You cannot win with Chris Paul. Real NBA aficionados know the reason why.
:oldlol:

Which is why Nash has one exactly 0 titles in his career?

And get out of here playing the race card. You could put Bird up against most any player and I'm choosing Bird.

[brisbaneman]

:oldlol:

Which is why Nash has one exactly 0 titles in his career?

And get out of here playing the race card. You could put Bird up against most any player and I'm choosing Bird.

You can't win with Paul because you compromise your offense too much with him. He puts too much strain on his own team. You can't have some guy running around 50 high screens and holding the ball for 20 seconds every possession and not expect to get freezed out when the games start to count.

[Go Getter]

You can't win with Paul because you compromise your offense too much with him. He puts too much strain on his own team. You can't have some guy running around 50 high screens and holding the ball for 20 seconds every possession and not expect to get freezed out when the games start to count.
Nash does the same thing....runs around until he finds an open cutter....and if Paul puts too much stress on the offense, Nash puts to much stress on the defense.

I think a team could win with Paul and/or Nash with the right pieces around them....they are two of the best natural points in the league now.

[brisbaneman]

Nash does the same thing....runs around until he finds an open cutter....and if Paul puts too much stress on the offense, Nash puts to much stress on the defense.

I think a team could win with Paul and/or Nash with the right pieces around them....they are two of the best natural points in the league now.

Yeah but Nash is the better shooter, much better shooter. I don't think you can win with either of them as your best player. History has shown that teams built around point guards do not win championships.

[Go Getter]

Yeah but Nash is the better shooter, much better shooter. I don't think you can win with either of them as your best player. History has shown that teams built around point guards do not win championships.


Being the best shooter doesn't cover up the glaring hole in his game. Chris' game has less holes than Nash.

And Zeke/Magic/Billups say otherwise.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Peaks are pretty close, but I'll take Paul. However, Nash sustained that level longer, it's actually hard to determine his peak between '05-'07, was playing close to that level before the Shaq trade in '08 and had a season not that far off in '10. Paul on the other hand only challenged his peak '08 season in '09 and his been a clear step below every other season. They were actually not that far apart last season as amazing as it sounds considering Nash is 37, he just didn't have a good team at all.

Nash is and was a significantly better shooter and a better passer. Nash is an underrated scorer, but Paul was probably the better overall scorer and a significantly better defender as well as a superior rebounder. Rebounding is not a huge factor for me here, though.



And Zeke/Magic/Billups say otherwise.

The 2004 Pistons certainly weren't built around Billups. They dominated with defense, and if they were built around anyone, it was their defensive anchor and best player, Ben Wallace. Billups did have an argument for the Pistons best player when they got back to the finals in '05.

[Go Getter]

Peaks are pretty close, but I'll take Paul. However, Nash sustained that level longer, it's actually hard to determine his peak between '05-'07, was playing close to that level before the Shaq trade in '08 and had a season not that far off in '10. Paul on the other hand only challenged his peak '08 season in '09 and his been a clear step below every other season. They were actually not that far apart last season as amazing as it sounds considering Nash is 37, he just didn't have a good team at all.

Nash is and was a significantly better shooter and a better passer. Nash is an underrated scorer, but Paul was probably the better overall scorer and a significantly better defender as well as a superior rebounder. Rebounding is not a huge factor for me here, though.



The 2004 Pistons certainly weren't built around Billups. They dominated with defense, and if they were built around anyone, it was their defensive anchor and best player, Ben Wallace. Billups did have an argument for the Pistons best player when they got back to the finals in '05.
Billups was their best player during their runs....not Rip, not Ben, not Tay.

That was my point.

But I agree, the best teams are built around d.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Billups was their best player during their runs....not Rip, not Ben, not Tay.

That was my point.

But I agree, the best teams are built around d.

Billups definitely wasn't the best during the 2004 run. He was their best player in the finals, but not during the previous 3 rounds or the regular season. That was Big Ben. Rip was arguably better than Billups through the first 3 rounds in '04 and Sheed's impact on that team was very big. It's hard to determine who the second best player was on the '04 team, but the best player was clearly Big Ben.

[Go Getter]

Billups definitely wasn't the best during the 2004 run. He was their best player in the finals, but not during the previous 3 rounds or the regular season. That was Big Ben. Rip was arguably better than Billups through the first 3 rounds in '04 and Sheed's impact on that team was very big. It's hard to determine who the second best player was on the '04 team, but the best player was clearly Big Ben.
I'll take Chauncey all-around....other than defense/rebounding and putting fans in the seats I think Ben was slightly overrated (but for what he has as far as talent he over-achieved--loved his style of play).

[D-Wade316]

Billups was their best player during their runs....not Rip, not Ben, not Tay.

That was my point.

But I agree, the best teams are built around d.
:no:

1st round:
Rip - 20.2ppg, 3.6rpg, 4.2apg, 48.0fg%
Billups - 18.2ppg, 1.8rpg, 7.2apg, 39.7fg%
Ben - 10.6ppg. 13.4rpg, 2.4apg, 47.7fg%

2nd round:
Rip - 20.6ppg, 5.0rpg, 4.7apg, 43.5fg%
Billups - 15.1ppg, 3.6rpg, 5.7apg, 35.2fg%
Ben - 11.7ppg, 14.3rpg, 2.3apg, 45.6fg%

3rd round:
Rip - 23.7ppg, 4.5rpg, 3.8apg, 47.4fg%
Billups - 12.7ppg, 3.3rpg, 5.7apg, 30.8fg%
Ben - 7.8ppg, 15.5rpg, 1.5apg, 40.4fg%

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'll take Chauncey all-around....other than defense/rebounding and putting fans in the seats I think Ben was slightly overrated (but for what he has as far as talent he over-achieved--loved his style of play).

Really? I never thought he was overrated. Defensively, the only big men I'd put up there with him since the 90's are Hakeem, Robinson, Zo, Duncan and Howard. Wouldn't rank Ben's defense above all of them, but I wouldn't rank him at the bottom of that group either. Maybe KG as well, but I have a hard time comparing KG's style/impact to shot blockers.

Ben's rebounding is also a reason why I think so highly of him. One of the best I've seen, and it made him a factor for his team offensively because he averaged about 4 offensive boards per game, but he used to have as many of those rebounds where he'd tap it back out as anyone, and you don't get credit for those rebounds in the stat sheet.


:no:

1st round:
Rip - 20.2ppg, 3.6rpg, 4.2apg, 48.0fg%
Billups - 18.2ppg, 1.8rpg, 7.2apg, 39.7fg%
Ben - 10.6ppg. 13.4rpg, 2.4apg, 47.7fg%

2nd round:
Rip - 20.6ppg, 5.0rpg, 4.7apg, 43.5fg%
Billups - 15.1ppg, 3.6rpg, 5.7apg, 35.2fg%
Ben - 11.7ppg, 14.3rpg, 2.3apg, 45.6fg%

3rd round:
Rip - 23.7ppg, 4.5rpg, 3.8apg, 47.4fg%
Billups - 12.7ppg, 3.3rpg, 5.7apg, 30.8fg%
Ben - 7.8ppg, 15.5rpg, 1.5apg, 40.4fg%

If you're posting stats then wouldn't it make more sense to post Ben's block and steal numbers instead of assists?

[Go Getter]

:no:

1st round:
Rip - 20.2ppg, 3.6rpg, 4.2apg, 48.0fg%
Billups - 18.2ppg, 1.8rpg, 7.2apg, 39.7fg%
Ben - 10.6ppg. 13.4rpg, 2.4apg, 47.7fg%

2nd round:
Rip - 20.6ppg, 5.0rpg, 4.7apg, 43.5fg%
Billups - 15.1ppg, 3.6rpg, 5.7apg, 35.2fg%
Ben - 11.7ppg, 14.3rpg, 2.3apg, 45.6fg%

3rd round:
Rip - 23.7ppg, 4.5rpg, 3.8apg, 47.4fg%
Billups - 12.7ppg, 3.3rpg, 5.7apg, 30.8fg%
Ben - 7.8ppg, 15.5rpg, 1.5apg, 40.4fg%
Watch the games. Bil;lups took and made most of the tough shots, he was the general, cool handed when tempers were hot....I mean, if you watched the games, how could you miss that?

[Go Getter]

Really? I never thought he was overrated. Defensively, the only big men I'd put up there with him since the 90's are Hakeem, Robinson, Zo, Duncan and Howard. Wouldn't rank Ben's defense above all of them, but I wouldn't rank him at the bottom of that group either. Maybe KG as well, but I have a hard time comparing KG's style/impact to shot blockers.

Ben's rebounding is also a reason why I think so highly of him. One of the best I've seen, and it made him a factor for his team offensively because he averaged about 4 offensive boards per game, but he used to have as many of those rebounds where he'd tap it back out as anyone, and you don't get credit for those rebounds in the stat sheet.



If you're posting stats then wouldn't it make more sense to post Ben's block and steal numbers instead of assists?
I wouldn't asy someone such as yourself overrated Ben, but in his prime I think the 'fro and his humble attitude (again, he deserved his accolades) gained him a lot of non-basketball fans which, imo, led to some overrating him.

[D-Wade316]

If you're posting stats then wouldn't it make more sense to post Ben's block and steal numbers instead of assists?
1st round:
2.6spg, 3.0bpg

2nd round:
2.3spg, 2.4bpg

3rd round:
1.0spg, 3.2bpg

Finals:
1.8spg, 1.0bpg

[D-Wade316]

Watch the games. Bil;lups took and made most of the tough shots, he was the general, cool handed when tempers were hot....I mean, if you watched the games, how could you miss that?
Because the first 3 quarters matters just as much as the 4th quarter?:confusedshrug:

[donald_trump]

Watch the games. Bil;lups took and made most of the tough shots, he was the general, cool handed when tempers were hot....I mean, if you watched the games, how could you miss that?

LOL this is hilarious.

pretending to be able to recite and know the games that happened 6 years ago. go play in traffic dude. admit youre wrong.

[Go Getter]

LOL this is hilarious.

pretending to be able to recite and know the games that happened 6 years ago. go play in traffic dude. admit youre wrong.


:facepalm
Not recite and know the games fool...remember them and take from them ideas and concepts that can't be translated through statistics.

I'll admit this: my point just shattered yours.:D

[knickswin]

I'd really like to see Chris Paul in a new system just to see if he can be effective in an offense where he isn't as ball dominant and has to do his thing earlier in the shot clock. He did that when he played for Team USA in 2008, but obviously his team also had a huge edge in talent in those games, so it's hard to judge anything based on that.

[Duncan21formvp]

I'd take Chris Paul. I couldn't imagine CP3 losing with HCA having a guy like Amare who averaged 37 ppg in the conference finals on prime Tim Duncan.

[knickswin]

I gotta say, as big a fan as I am of Amar'e , that 2005 series was probably the emptiest 37 ppg in recent memory. I don't think he'll ever average 37 ppg in a playoff series again, but he's a better player now in my opinion. He was still all energy back then. Not reliable at all down the stretch.

[Duncan21formvp]

I gotta say, as big a fan as I am of Amar'e , that 2005 series was probably the emptiest 37 ppg in recent memory. I don't think he'll ever average 37 ppg in a playoff series again, but he's a better player now in my opinion. He was still all energy back then. Not reliable at all down the stretch.

How many guys have ever averaged 37 ppg in a playoff series? I know Jordan has done so at least 6 series, Shaq I believe, Amare, West, Barry to name a few off the top of my head. It's not like most stars will ever average that.

[knickswin]

How many guys have ever averaged 37 ppg in a playoff series? I know Jordan has done so at least 6 series, Shaq I believe, Amare, West, Barry to name a few off the top of my head. It's not like most stars will ever average that.

yeah, that's true I guess lol. But you could probably average 20-25 ppg in a series and have those points be more meaningful.

[Kevin_Gamble]

I'd take Chris Paul. I couldn't imagine CP3 losing with HCA having a guy like Amare who averaged 37 ppg in the conference finals on prime Tim Duncan.

Why is it so hard to imagine CP3 losing? He's been doing that his entire career.

[fos]

Peak? Paul. Not even close

21.1ppg, 11.6apg, 4.0rpg, 57.6ts%, 52.4efg% + elite defense
15.5ppg, 11.5apg, 3.3rpg, 60.6ts%, 55.7effg%

Career wise? I'd take Nash with a heartbeat.

Nash had 18.6 ppg, 11.6 apg, and 3.5 rpg in the '06 season on much better shooting, clearly a better peak season (he shot 53% from the field and 45.5 from three! Unreal!).

[D-Wade316]

Nash had 18.6 ppg, 11.6 apg, and 3.5 rpg in the '06 season on much better shooting, clearly a better peak season (he shot 53% from the field and 45.5 from three! Unreal!).
I only posted his 04-05 stats, because that was his best season as far as I can remember.

[DaPerceive]

I only posted his 04-05 stats, because that was his best season as far as I can remember.
Actually statistically he was even better in '06-'07. That was probably his best individual season ever actually. The only reason why he didn't win MVP was because they weren't going to let Nash win 3 MVPs and 3 MVPs in a row. If Nash didn't win in '04-'05 or '05-'06 he may have ended up winning the '06-'07 MVP. Nash was still 2nd in the 2007 MVP voting though which is nothing to scuff at.

Nash in '06-'07 stats: 18.6 ppg, 11.6 apg, .532 FG%, .455 3PFG%, .899 FT%, 23.8 PER, .654 TS%, .613 eFG%.

He had a career high in apg, FG%, PER, TS%, and eFG% that season.

[Toizumi]

Watch the games. Bil;lups took and made most of the tough shots, he was the general, cool handed when tempers were hot....I mean, if you watched the games, how could you miss that?

Yes, Billups made the big shots, earning him his monicker (and finals MVP). Still, in my opinion he didn

[Go Getter]

Yes, Billups made the big shots, earning him his monicker (and finals MVP). Still, in my opinion he didn’t change the outlook of the game as much as Ben though. His energy on defense and on the glass really changed games and lead Detroit. Detroit won with defense and hustle and Ben was the enigma.

Opinions on this really differ though and that’s understandable, since impact and value can’t be measured by just statistics. Also, Detroit was a well oiled system of players, not just one or two stars leading a squad. Ben and Chauncey were the leaders of that team, but Rip was a great scorer and Rasheed played world class defense and took over on offense at times.


I think Ben's defense was a bit overrated. He rebounded like a beast, blocked shots extremely well for guy his height, and played good defense, but he wasn't stopping Shaq or TD or anything. He wasn't a prime Mutumbo, Mourning, or KG.

I agree that the Pistons were a balanced team but I feel like if you had to pick one star/leader type guy it would have been Chauncey....mostly because he played good defense and initiated the offense while taking and hitting timely shots. (a point which was made to rebut the statement that teams can't win with their PG as their #1 guy.

But as you said...opinions vary....

[Toizumi]

I think Ben's defense was a bit overrated. He rebounded like a beast, blocked shots extremely well for guy his height, and played good defense, but he wasn't stopping Shaq or TD or anything. He was a prime Mutumbo, Mourning, or KG.

I agree that the Pistons were a balanced team but I feel like if you had to pick one star/leader type guy it would have been Chauncey....mostly because he played good defense and initiated the offense while taking and hitting timely shots. (a point which was made to rebut the statement that teams can't win with their PG as their #1 guy.

But as you said...opinions vary....

yup. And since rating players for their value is very subjective, you can't really be wrong or right here.

As for Ben's defense..


He rebounded like a beast, blocked shots extremely well for guy his height, and played good defense, but he wasn't stopping Shaq or TD or anything. He was a prime Mutumbo, Mourning, or KG.

nobody was stopping these guys in their prime and you're naming some world class defensive players here :cheers:
I agree that Ben definitely was a bit overrated at some point, eventhough I’m a big fan of his. Chicago should’ve never thrown all that money at him. I might've felt different about Ben if my team paid as much for him as Chicago did.. He was great defensively and on the glass, but you need a good working offensive system and a decent frontcourt scorer to compensate for him on offense.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He was a prime Mutumbo, Mourning, or KG.

I think that Ben's overall defense was better than Mutombo's. He could trap guards in the backcourt, guard pick and rolls and still recover to block shots or rebound. He was all over the court. Mutombo was pretty much glued to the paint which is why he was called for so many illegal defenses, didn't like to step out and wasn't a good pick and roll defender. He was a beast in the paint, and a much better post defender than Ben, but Ben had a bigger impact on a team's defense, imo.

[Go Getter]

I think that Ben's overall defense was better than Mutombo's. He could trap guards in the backcourt, guard pick and rolls and still recover to block shots or rebound. He was all over the court. Mutombo was pretty much glued to the paint which is why he was called for so many illegal defenses, didn't like to step out and wasn't a good pick and roll defender. He was a beast in the paint, and a much better post defender than Ben, but Ben had a bigger impact on a team's defense, imo.


Ehh, I agree with you on Ben's versatility on the defensive side (however, I don't know how many serviceable guards wouldn't attack him off the dribble when trapped)...

**Dike really doesn't get much credit for anchoring a team to the biggest upset in NBA playoff history**

Maybe I need to look back at some of those games.

Admittedly, I was NOT a fan of (I'll always hate the Pistons as a Bull's fan) Pissssssstoooooooooonnsss basssssssketballlll whether it was the Bad Boys or the newer Championship squad so maybe my bias prevented me from seeing some things.

[Bigsmoke]

CP3 all the way.

Nash is da shit too but i dont think he could ever single-handedly carry a franchise to the playoffs like Chris Paul could. Nash needed another All Star or two like Dirk, Finley, Amare, or Marion to make noise.

The Hornets played at the 2nd slowest pace in the NBA but yet his assists numbers werent that less then Nash' were last season.

[DMVLeGenD]

OT but does anyone know why I'm having trouble creating threads? I can reply on threads I didn't create, but can't actually create one. This is the message I get when I try to create a thread:


DMVLeGenD, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

[Bigsmoke]

:no:

1st round:
Rip - 20.2ppg, 3.6rpg, 4.2apg, 48.0fg%
Billups - 18.2ppg, 1.8rpg, 7.2apg, 39.7fg%
Ben - 10.6ppg. 13.4rpg, 2.4apg, 47.7fg%

2nd round:
Rip - 20.6ppg, 5.0rpg, 4.7apg, 43.5fg%
Billups - 15.1ppg, 3.6rpg, 5.7apg, 35.2fg%
Ben - 11.7ppg, 14.3rpg, 2.3apg, 45.6fg%

3rd round:
Rip - 23.7ppg, 4.5rpg, 3.8apg, 47.4fg%
Billups - 12.7ppg, 3.3rpg, 5.7apg, 30.8fg%
Ben - 7.8ppg, 15.5rpg, 1.5apg, 40.4fg%

damn Rip was getting it in back then :eek:

[Bigsmoke]

I think Ben's defense was a bit overrated. He rebounded like a beast, blocked shots extremely well for guy his height, and played good defense, but he wasn't stopping Shaq or TD or anything. He wasn't a prime Mutumbo, Mourning, or KG.

I agree that the Pistons were a balanced team but I feel like if you had to pick one star/leader type guy it would have been Chauncey....mostly because he played good defense and initiated the offense while taking and hitting timely shots. (a point which was made to rebut the statement that teams can't win with their PG as their #1 guy.

But as you said...opinions vary....

Big Ben didnt stop Timmy but he did a better job on him than anybody i could think of. Didnt Duncan shot like 43 or 44% in the Finals against the Pistons?

[Bigsmoke]

I wouldn't asy someone such as yourself overrated Ben, but in his prime I think the 'fro and his humble attitude (again, he deserved his accolades) gained him a lot of non-basketball fans which, imo, led to some overrating him.

Ben Wallace was a great defender when he was playing here. Ben Wallace was overpaid but it was nice looking at Shaq's face after his team got swept. But real talk though, Ben Wallace was the shit back in the day. You cant really look at a team like the 02 Pistons and point at someone who averaged 7 a game and be like "Thats our best player" and win 50 games.


I'm with Shaqattack on this one. Big Ben was the Piston's best player in that during that title run because of his energy and ability to clog the lanes and shit..

[Go Getter]

Ben Wallace was a great defender when he was playing here. Ben Wallace was overpaid but it was nice looking at Shaq's face after his team got swept. But real talk though, Ben Wallace was the shit back in the day. You cant really look at a team like the 02 Pistons and point at someone who averaged 7 a game and be like "Thats our best player" and win 50 games.


I'm with Shaqattack on this one. Big Ben was the Piston's best player in that during that title run because of his energy and ability to clog the lanes and shit..
I don't know g.

Like I said I respect ya'lls opinion to the utmost but the team d was a real beast at that time man Chauncey, Tay, Sheed, AND (most of all) Big Ben were playing staunch d.

I think people got into the hype of the 'fro and the defensive star style game...I'm not taking anything away from him there are few players I would actually say were defensive stars but for a couple of years he was.

But the thing that really struck me about those Pistons teams were they were almost mechanical on offense, how they shared the ball and how they took after Chauncey.

Ben wasn't no leader like that you could see that when he came to the Bulls. Chauncey is a leader and Ben is a complementary player so you gotta give the
nod to him.

[rodman91]

For Pistons, imo, Ben Wallace was most valuable player of the team.Probably leader or at least attitude of the team.Rasheed was their go to guy.Billups was their closer and general on offense.

[Go Getter]

For Pistons, imo, Ben Wallace was most valuable player of the team.Probably leader or at least attitude of the team.Rasheed was their go to guy.Billups was their closer and general on offense.


Sheed was the go to guy? Really they didn't have a go-to-guy at all Chauncey just made some big shots and earned a rep. I would say that you could call Rip, Chauncey, Sheed, or even Tay "that guy" on any given night. They played a really balanced game.

[Duncan21formvp]

Why is it so hard to imagine CP3 losing? He's been doing that his entire career.
I said if he had a guy on his team who averaged 37 ppg in a playoff series.